115 - I’ll Be Gone In The Dark at Skylight Books

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[21] Big things are happening, people.

[22] Bye.

[23] I was afraid to slide down.

[24] And knock the whole table over.

[25] Take down a bunch of books.

[26] Hi.

[27] This is so weird to be sitting this way at the bookstore that I usually am at this way, if my face in a book deciding if I want to...

[28] You're more sideways?

[29] Yeah.

[30] What I'm saying is...

[31] Here, it's on now.

[32] Sorry.

[33] What I'm saying is this is my bookstore, and I'm really excited to be talking at it in a microphone.

[34] Well, welcome to Skylight Books, Georgia.

[35] Thanks, guys.

[36] Welcome, everybody.

[37] We are thrilled when Patton asked us to moderate as a very weird word for this, but to come and kind of co -host this with them.

[38] Of course, we were thrilled.

[39] I knew Michelle, and we both were huge fans of a true crime diary and the work that she has been doing and did for true crime and for being an online sleuth and the East Area Rapist, ultimately Golden State Killer case.

[40] She's put in so much incredible work technically, And then to read this book, just for me, the level of writing in this book is so incredibly impressive.

[41] And it's like, when I read True Crime, you kind of expect a certain tone.

[42] It's mostly factual, informational, you know, with a little bit of, like, color.

[43] This book reads to me, like, fine literature.

[44] And I'm just so impressed.

[45] I'm so proud of her.

[46] It's such an exciting thing that this book exists right now.

[47] So we're very proud to be a part of this.

[48] I mean, I don't know.

[49] Yeah.

[50] It's, I don't know.

[51] It's a thing.

[52] It's I feel like we're more, we're holding space for this book and this effort and this body of work that someone really dedicated their whole life to.

[53] And so it's really an honor to be here with you guys tonight to be talking about this book.

[54] So I guess, I don't know.

[55] Yeah, right?

[56] So I think Matt will bring out Patton Oswald.

[57] and Billy Jensen and Paul Haynes who helped finish the book.

[58] Thank you guys.

[59] Yeah.

[60] This is Billy Jensen.

[61] He was a journalist friend of Michelle's, and Paul Haynes was Michelle's researcher referred to in the book as The Kid.

[62] The Kid.

[63] This is The Kid.

[64] Yeah, there he is.

[65] So, yeah.

[66] And I'm bringing them here because they live here, and a lot of these book tours, I wasn't able to take them with me, And my function, as you will see, will be to talk about Michelle and to talk in very kind of subjective quasi poetic terms about what happened, and then go, and Billy and Paul, could you please explain it?

[67] Like, they actually have technical facts and updates as to what is actually still going on with the case.

[68] So we're very, very lucky to have them here tonight.

[69] So, so thank you guys.

[70] I really appreciate it.

[71] So, yeah.

[72] It's very exciting.

[73] Should we just get right to the updates?

[74] Just tell, did they catch him?

[75] Well, okay, you were talking when we did the event, we did an earlier event in L .A. That there was a possible lead.

[76] And by the way, before I get him started on this, this ends in frustration again.

[77] But there was a very strong possible lead that led from them looking at a fence he vaulted over in which they discovered that the other side of it.

[78] I'll let Billy take.

[79] Pill, you know, when you actually visit the crime scenes, you have a different perspective than you would have looking at them from, like, the Bird's Eye View on Google Maps and one of the investigators in Sacramento had visited the scene, I believe, the 28th rape.

[80] And he realized that the offender leaving the scene would have had a steep drop and likely wouldn't have been able to gauge the steepness of it in the dark because the lighting conditions weren't conducive.

[81] to that.

[82] And, you know, an injury would have likely resulted from the offenders escaped from that scene.

[83] And incidentally, three days later, there was an individual who presented himself at the American River Hospital in Carmichael with a broken shoulder.

[84] And he claimed it was an on -the -job injury.

[85] And he provided a false name, provided a false social security number from multiple stolen identities.

[86] And once it became evident that the hospital staff was suspicious of this individual, he fled.

[87] fled and this was a lead that wasn't really followed up on until like three months ago and it was determined that the hospital intake employee had since passed so it's a dead end yes there's a lot of stuff like that of oh we that you know we're following this thread and then you just hit a wall you know and which she really really recreates in the book the sensation of these cops who oh my god this looks so good And then you hit this wall, and then you have to recover from the disappointment of not only did that not pan out, but by pursuing that, I've given this killer another two, three -month lead, yet a further head start because I just followed the wrong lead.

[88] Yeah.

[89] And in a twisted way, that's the way we talked about this last time as we talk about these suspects that we have.

[90] And we all have certain suspects that we like.

[91] And the suspect list is, especially that was in Michelle's computer was a thousand people.

[92] But there was ones that she liked.

[93] And that's how you refer to them.

[94] Do you like this guy?

[95] Does this guy look good?

[96] And it's almost like you're falling in love with this suspect.

[97] When it doesn't pan out, it's your heart gets broken to a certain extent.

[98] And you get, you go into a very dark place.

[99] And we've all been there with.

[100] whether it's a lead that doesn't pan out in one of my other investigations and Michelle certainly I've been you know I've had Michelle coming and we were going to have drinks and like the first thing she said was I solved it you know and then it just didn't work out yeah eventually you get jaded and eventually but you get jaded but she never once that would only really last like a day maybe a day for her I think I never really so I mean I wasn't with her every day but she was always just right back up there and been like all right you know because there's always going to be especially in this case there was always another lead to follow it wasn't like every day dead end actually was not a dead end, it just turned around and then led to another path.

[101] I know I felt so frustrated in the book when it was like explaining someone that was looked very, very good for the case and then the DNA wouldn't, the simple little thing and everything else on paper was 100 % that was the person.

[102] And, you know, you start wanting to not believe DNA, which is insane.

[103] Right.

[104] But it's just, I mean, I can't imagine.

[105] Can't we bring back alchemy and reading entrails and watching how birds.

[106] fly what's wrong with that it you said again that language of finding a suspect that you it is it is the exact same language as an early crush where you're like hey I I'm liking this guy he's looking good he's good and then when that when a piece of evidence will come up that exonerates him they will use phrases like he blew it he blew it I was so into him and he blew it like it was the same he showed up wearing a maga hat I was into him and he blew it you know he said he asked somebody else to the prom and you forgot yeah it was oh it was right there he blew it so you know that that kind of you have to get that emotionally involved and yeah i mean i remember very specifically some very rough mornings for her where she'd be at her laptop crying because i just this has gone nowhere or very very bad late nights of a lot of brooding but like you said after a couple days she would okay who's next she would open the files again and let's go back into them and it was i don't know where she got that energy or where she got that fortitude to keep doing that, even though it was getting chipped away like that.

[107] Well, it also seems like in reading it, because I went to college in Sacramento and the way, like, you could so tell that she went there and spent time there.

[108] Oh, yes, she did.

[109] Because those descriptions are so fucking laser accurate.

[110] The fact that she mentioned Day on the Green, like being a teenager in the 70s in Sacramento meant you went to the river, you drank beer at the levee.

[111] What?

[112] You fucking went to Day on the Green in, Oakland or whatever, like all these things where as a, you know, at the time I was seven in California, they were teenagers, but that she, it was so concise.

[113] It was so insanely accurate where I think part of it, it seems to me, was the research was her passion.

[114] So getting back into it, as disappointed as she would get, that was almost the salve is like, but now there's this file to go through.

[115] Yeah.

[116] And you mentioned, yeah, that the actual physical going to the place and driving around.

[117] and feeling the air and what it feels like in the summer versus what it feels like in the winter.

[118] Very early on on True Crime Diary, there was a murder up in Jenner on the beach, which a couple was on the beach.

[119] They were making out.

[120] A guy walked down and shot them with a rifle.

[121] So you envision this thing if you mind of, oh yeah, he walked down to the beach with a rifle.

[122] But then she drove up to Jenner and went down to that beach.

[123] That beach was extremely rocky, very, very hard to get.

[124] She almost fell and hurt herself getting down there.

[125] She goes, and I was not carrying a heavy hunting rifle.

[126] Then she went and checked out what the rifle was he would have used.

[127] It's insanely heavy.

[128] So it totally changed her perception of what the crime was about.

[129] Oh, no, this wasn't a guy that randomly wandered down and shot people.

[130] This was an outdoorsy, planned, knew what he was.

[131] So I think that really stayed with her of let's always drive, walk, look at the crime scene, talk to the locals, find out, you know, and find out from that time.

[132] She would, I remember she would drive through Irvine and Galita and she would make, she would make iPod mixes of the songs that would have been on the radio in those years to, and one time we were coming back from Santa Barbara, and she stopped and drove, and it was Dan Fulgeberg and the neat Eagles and just like I want, and it made all those songs kind of sinister.

[133] Yeah, they are.

[134] Yeah, well, Dan Hotel California is the scariest song of all time.

[135] Yeah, Dan Fogelberg has some Fogelberg has some darkness in him that people do not talk about.

[136] I think he's on so much cover.

[137] Yeah, he is tired.

[138] And you know, it's hard to say.

[139] It's hard to say.

[140] Why she would get to that and you realize like, oh, like everything contributed to what ended up happening.

[141] You know, the movies that were there, the catchphrases that were in people's heads, she wanted to be totally absorbed in that time.

[142] Well, and I think that work.

[143] it's so shows in this book because I think it's like it's easy when you like true crime or you read it or you're kind of this like a participant for me it's so easy to sit back and be like well that's ridiculous they didn't test that thing or all that weird judgey shit where when you actually go out and do the things that cops had to do I mean she was really actually walking the walk which is the coolest you know we we have a we have a tool right now especially as citizen detectives if anybody has ever tried to look into their on cases of using Google Maps and using Google Street View, and you can walk through.

[144] But the one thing that you don't get is depth.

[145] And that's what you wouldn't be able to get that when she was looking at the Jenner case.

[146] She wouldn't be able to get that with the possible lead of the guy jumping and then hurting his shoulder.

[147] You have to be able to do that, and that's so important.

[148] When you go see scenes that you've only seen pictures of and you're actually there, everything just really looks really small.

[149] Everything's small, everything's a lot more condensed and closer together.

[150] But you really get that sense of depth and it gives you a whole new perspective on what everything is about.

[151] Yeah, that's true.

[152] We went, when we were in Boulder for a show, we went and drove, of course, by the Ramsey house.

[153] And it is tiny.

[154] You don't realize how close everything is and someone had to have heard something.

[155] And, you know, it's just...

[156] If she were here, she knew every single thing about the Jean -Beney Ramsey case.

[157] She knew all of the...

[158] She knew all the online slang, BDI.

[159] Burke did it.

[160] Yeah.

[161] She knew the slang, uh, was part of the slang.

[162] And I remember her saying, she said, that ransom note is the citizen cane of ransom notes.

[163] No, ransom note is more than a page long.

[164] Like, that, that should have put nothing but alarm bells up.

[165] People are like, yeah, they just wrote a long ransom note.

[166] No one does that.

[167] No one, page two.

[168] Furthermore, right now that the body is five feet away from me, I start to realize.

[169] I'm sent back to my youth in the Boy Scout.

[170] I remember those days.

[171] Yeah, no one does that.

[172] So there was all these, I mean, there were these books that she would, I mean, a book that she was really, really, she would read over and over again was Robert Graysmith's Zodiac book because it's a fascinating read because it's a fascinating case.

[173] But it's also, it's a version of I'll Be Gone in the Dark where he's not aware of how obsessed he is.

[174] Whereas in this book, I think Michelle is very, very aware of she is going to some weird areas here.

[175] And she even says that the same drive that, makes this guy go and stalk people and murder people is what drives me and these cops to keep pursuing him no matter what.

[176] And she said the Zodiac book by Robert Graysmith is a fascinating book because it's a case study of the writer more than it is of the crime.

[177] But the writer doesn't realize he's writing it.

[178] He doesn't realize he's giving you an autobiographical case study of his unhingedness.

[179] Yeah.

[180] Yeah.

[181] So it's really cool.

[182] That's the feeling that I had when I first saw that picture of the town hall meeting at the high school i looked at every fucking man's face in that picture he's there he's there the faces are so small it was it was a it was a if people i'm sure you all know but the people that don't know they finally had a town hall meeting to get everybody together at the town hall meeting there was a man who said i can't believe this is happening no man would let somebody come into their house and then a couple months later i believe um the East Area Rapist hit that house and that family.

[183] Came after him and his wife.

[184] Him and his wife and they were victims.

[185] So they know for a fact he was at this town hall meeting.

[186] What if it was a coincidence?

[187] It could have been a coincidence.

[188] Have you ever been to Sacramento though?

[189] That's what's so crazy.

[190] It's all we had to do then was town hall meeting.

[191] Sacramento is L .A. with no show business.

[192] Just picture that.

[193] Just imagine that in your head.

[194] Nothing exciting or glamorous house.

[195] But what you're just saying there, That is, if you go to these certain towns, each town has a personality, and then it will help you to understand, like, wait a minute, I don't think that was a coincidence because of how that, you know, like, it changes your view of the crimes.

[196] And it's, you know, it's kind of fascinating that way.

[197] I mean, when I was doing my reading at Powell's for this book, they told me, I'm sure they've told you this too, or maybe you'll be told this.

[198] Whenever that, when I did readings from my other books, I'm just kind of in the round talking.

[199] But when I was doing this book, they had me sitting against a wall because whenever there's readings for true crime books, there are plain -closed cops in the audience, and they photograph the crowd.

[200] Because in the past, whenever Anne Rule has done readings there, they would photograph the crowd way back in the day, and the Green River Killer would be at almost early reading.

[201] Isn't this what we came for tonight?

[202] Right there.

[203] Look around.

[204] Yeah, exactly.

[205] But they will photograph the crowd.

[206] And I was like, are there guys here tonight?

[207] They're like, well, don't worry about that.

[208] But any true crime meeting, they photograph the crowd at Powell's.

[209] Because the Pacific Northwest is, you know, Disneyland for serial killers.

[210] So when you guys, when your book comes out and you're going to tour, take a look at your crowd at Powell's because who knows?

[211] It's going to be all these girls with awesome hair and dresses and then some guys.

[212] Yeah, just a lot of them.

[213] Ford guys with their arms crossed.

[214] so yeah that that kind of eerieness is you know it I hate to bring up Joan Didion but but there is that you have to there is there's that that thread of darkness in the suburbs and god damn it's there the reason it's a cliche is because it's fucking true well and it's in my experience it's never been true than the suburbs of Sacramento because Sacramento go it just goes on and on and on you can get in your car and drive for four hours and still be in Sacramento.

[215] It's like a fucking science fiction show on TNT that you don't want to watch.

[216] And also when you get out into those Carmichaeli suburbs, those houses, it's, you don't know one house from the next.

[217] It's probably slightly different now, but like, it just had that, that was part of the feel, right?

[218] It's like you're going out away from your job, away from the city to, like, escape.

[219] I think that's what's so interesting about this case is like, We all know that there's something in the places that he picked that tell who he is.

[220] Because where I'm from Irvine randomly, where a couple of the cases or the attacks happened and murders, and it's the same fucking thing.

[221] And I think she described it, and I almost started crying as, like, it's just three shades of beige in this city.

[222] And it totally is.

[223] And these, like, boring ranch style houses and, you know, one story.

[224] And it's just, it, you, there are these places that are supposed to feel safe and contained, and he brought this insane, crazy, scary nightmare to it, almost on purpose, you know, to scare everyone.

[225] I think on purpose.

[226] Yeah, well, what was the, hang on.

[227] For sure.

[228] Well, yeah.

[229] That was, me bringing the nightmare was incidental to me. I just wanted to have something to eat.

[230] I just love to stack plates.

[231] You, okay, they were just mentioning, what do you, that I, idea that what was there something about these houses or this landscape that pulled that out of him that made like well has that ever been thought of or obviously i think definitely i mean paul can speak to you know there's two main areas we're really focused on in part three uh which is where we think this thing can be solved and that's DNA and particularly familial DNA um we think the answer is there it's it's in a database someplace and it's just a couple clicks away just a matter of whether we can get to it or not and then there's um geographic profiling and you know the idea of what this guy was this guy wasn't and Michelle believed this as well is this guy this wasn't about sex for this guy you know this was about power and it was about taking somebody that is in their most comfortable state their most safest state which is they probably moved out of the city and they're in the suburbs and they're in their house and they're in a bed next to their their man who's protecting them with a loaded gun in the house but meanwhile they don't know that he snuck in and undid the gun and did all this other stuff you can't get more evil and diabolical than that.

[232] And I think a lot of that did have to do with the power of it is that you think you're safe, you're not safe.

[233] I'm going to come in here and show you what real terror is like.

[234] And a lot of that had to do with the geography.

[235] Yeah, I think reading about serial offenders, you as the reader, can just assure yourself well that I've never been in that position and that would never happen to me. With this case, you know, these people are targeted in their own homes and their beds at night, you can't avoid being in that situation.

[236] I think that's what makes this case so terrifying.

[237] And I can't tell you how many, every other tweet is about, I mean, everybody's loving the book, which is amazing, but then every other tweet is, I just had to check the windows, I had to check the doors, and I checked the locks.

[238] And I swear lock sales have definitely gone up or window sales and things.

[239] I was, uh, my, my, my wife was reading this and she's like, we are going to go over the alarm system.

[240] Yeah.

[241] And we're going to redo the codes we're going to change it like it makes you because these people had these state of the art defenses but okay now you just let slip something there that that is also um touched on in the book and and also you guys on just on past episodes you've you've also caught yourselves doing this which i find fascinating when you really get into these cases and really get into these killers there is a part of you that will unwillingly kind of go and that was really diabolical and brilliant what and And you've got to go, but he's a piece of shit.

[242] And Michelle talks about that a lot in the book of these cops, they will start talking about him.

[243] And she describes it as it's the sensation of you find yourself talking way too long about an ex to two your new boyfriend and girlfriend.

[244] Then he goes, but fuck him.

[245] Don't think I, because they look at you like, I think you're still, you know.

[246] So there's that moment of you have to, but to catch him, you have to acknowledge that that was a very brilliant thing.

[247] You know, like have you ever like done that as well?

[248] talking, geez, oh, God, that was...

[249] Not tonight.

[250] Well, I think that, to speak to that, that part, and you and I actually talked about this, because it was when Michelle had told you this piece, and so it was before a show at Largo, it was like, we're standing backstage, and you're like, oh, I'd tell you this thing about how he used to go into the house early and then hide stuff, and I'll tell you after, and then walked away where I was like, you can't do that, what's happening?

[251] But basically, the person who would, what kind of person would be able to stake out a house for months and months, revisit it, break into it when the family's not there, hide things, hide weapons, or all of those things where it's levels of, again, like you don't want to use the word dedication.

[252] You don't want to use respectful words, but at the same time, it's not the average, like, somebody that's killed by the whole.

[253] And Michelle said this guy wasn't a genius.

[254] He just practiced a lot.

[255] And he, you know, it's like, you know, Malcolm Gladwell talks about the 10 ,000 hours of practice to get to an expert.

[256] And do we drag Gladwell into this.

[257] We tried how long.

[258] Ladies and gentlemen, Malcolm Gladwell.

[259] But that's what this guy does, did was he just constantly, he probably went out every night.

[260] He didn't do, he didn't attack every night, but he really was doing an early version of parkour jumping around and doing all this stuff.

[261] Yeah.

[262] The thing of making dogs like, know him.

[263] Oh, God.

[264] Fuck, man. Come on.

[265] Yeah.

[266] Giving him treats, calming them down.

[267] So when you're reading a book, and that's one of the reasons why this book has been as resonated so much, is that when you're reading, the most famous serial killer in history is Jack the Ripper.

[268] When you're reading Jack the Ripper, there is such a detachment, not only because it happened a long time ago, but she's like, well, I'm not a streetwalker.

[269] It's never going to happen to me. Same thing with Arthur Sharkras.

[270] Same thing with Joel Ripkin.

[271] You read those things, oh, that's not going to happen to me. I'm not a cockney -or.

[272] Or even Son of Sam.

[273] It's like, oh, I don't make out with people on lovers' lanes.

[274] That's okay, but everybody sleeps in their house.

[275] Yes.

[276] Yeah, yeah.

[277] That's why this resonates with everybody.

[278] I just remember the one where it's the teenage girl who hears something outside her window because they were talking about how pale he was in the, I think it's the earlier Vysalia, that guy, the ransacker part.

[279] And a girl hears the noise outside her window and then looks.

[280] down and sees like a moon -looking thing and then realizes it's a face looking up at her in the bushes.

[281] And then the way Michelle describes it is he skitters away like a lizard or something like that where I was just like, I'm very upset right now.

[282] Like this is, it's so, it's a person who has, is basically dedicating his life to being as upsetting and evil and horrifying as possible.

[283] explain that to me well even yeah you're right even if he's not killing someone if he it's almost like he's designed his life around even if I'm seen I want it to be unsettling and I want to haunt people and and shake up any feeling of safety or normalcy I want to be something in someone's field of vision that then they can never look at the world completely the same way again that's what that it's like because I it feels like someone going I cannot make my mark any other way so I'll do it through horror I'll just do it through sheer horror.

[284] Do you guys have a theory about what his job was?

[285] Because I got really convinced about the fact that he was in the military or special forces when there was a special forces.

[286] It's because in the book it said that.

[287] So I was like, me too.

[288] This is my theory.

[289] But it was the thing of the patience, like how somebody could sit inside bushes for six hours and just wait that it's a special training.

[290] Do you agree with that?

[291] Well, I mean, he was generally described as having had, like, shoulder -length hair.

[292] So he would have been active military at that time.

[293] He may have been in the military at some point or a military enthusiast.

[294] But during that period, I mean, there's been a lot of speculation about his occupation.

[295] And it's like, you know, medical, construction, painting, realty, you know, any theory's game.

[296] Is there anything you like, though?

[297] No, no, they all kind of cancel each other out for me. Oh, really?

[298] Yeah, really.

[299] We try to take a look at, there's so many, there's so many clues.

[300] that are out there and there are some that we know are definitely his and then we're some that we're not sure of like say the homework the general costor homework so we yeah so or the map the hand drawn map so we don't know what we don't know if those are his or not I don't I tend not to focus on those just because you can really go down some rabbit holes which Michelle certainly gone down I mean I've looked at so many different maps trying to match up that hand drawn map to different locations and neighborhoods but we know that there are certain things like the paint flex or whatever that he left behind and the idea that he did know a lot about these neighborhoods.

[301] I don't think he was military.

[302] I would veer more towards somebody who maybe wanted to be military at some point.

[303] Security guardish.

[304] Michelle would always say, always look to the handyman.

[305] Yeah, always look at the handyman.

[306] She basically ruined True Detective by episode three.

[307] That's true.

[308] That's right.

[309] It's a handyman.

[310] I'm good.

[311] Turn it off.

[312] And, you know, I think that's sort of where I'm going is more along those lines, somebody that maybe wanted to be in the military or police, but couldn't quite get it.

[313] In a slide from the DNA, the Panflex have been really the only forensic evidence that's been of any value, and it's not been linked to any particular industry or company.

[314] So ultimately, it's been useless.

[315] You know, in terms of, like, what he's done for living, like, Paul Holes, who's the investigator in Contra Costa, is convinced that he worked in, like, landscape architecture or construction.

[316] You said the other investigators feel he would be somebody of, like, you know, lower class sort of a marginal person.

[317] But if that were the case, I think he would have stood out more in the neighborhoods that he prowled, and, you know, he didn't.

[318] Descriptions of suspicious people are just kind of like guys that were there.

[319] They're like 5 '9, you know, dressed in windbreakers, you know, very average -looking people.

[320] So, I don't know, whoever he was, he blended in in these kind of upper middle -middle -class neighborhoods.

[321] And of the sketches, you know, we've gone through the yearbooks of, like the rancher yearbooks and everything, and everybody had that haircut.

[322] You're looking at him going, that's him, that's him.

[323] Except people in the military.

[324] Except people in the military.

[325] Yeah, but, you know.

[326] They're...

[327] And that particular, like, you know, we get a lot of people sending photos of their fathers or stepdad and say, hey, this is my stepdad, and this is...

[328] Look at the picture of him here.

[329] I bet he was the one.

[330] Or a lot of those, the pictures, them zooming in on pictures from that town all needing and saying, look at that, he was there.

[331] You get a lot of tips with people doing, like, side by sides.

[332] And that's a good way to filter out, like, the worthless ones.

[333] Because the sketches are really just, I don't know, I don't think even the more reliable composites from this case are a very limited value.

[334] I mean, there's somebody's interpretation of somebody's description.

[335] And the way they don't compare to each other.

[336] That drives me crazy as I always look at what is the three or four that they usually put up together.

[337] And it's like, these are fucking three different dudes.

[338] Like, there are features that part of the hair.

[339] There's one guy that has like an extremely side part, and then the other guy has full -on Sean Cassidy hair.

[340] Yeah.

[341] It's just...

[342] You said you went to high school in Sacramento or college?

[343] Well, I flunked out of college in Sacramento.

[344] That's how I like to say it.

[345] But were there, was there, were there traces of this crime?

[346] Did people ever talk about it?

[347] Was it still in the air while you're there or they moved on?

[348] Just the bad vibes.

[349] That's just Sacramento, though.

[350] Yeah, exactly.

[351] That was just...

[352] That was the asphalt burning off in the 197 -degree weather.

[353] No, but I never heard anybody talk about that.

[354] But in reading this book, there's that one part where the East Area rapist was operating, and there was it three other rapists that were also operating at the same time.

[355] The early bird rapist, the early morning rapist, the woolly rapist.

[356] Yeah, the 70s were like a green ground for serial offenders.

[357] Yeah.

[358] Ugh.

[359] It was not, I remember one time Michelle tweeted, Hey, was your name Gary and did you drive a van in the 70s?

[360] You weren't alone because she was going through all these files who was just like there's a guy named Gary in a van.

[361] Like that's the symbol of 70s should be a guy named Gary with a van.

[362] That's the 70s in California.

[363] But you moved to Irvine.

[364] So did you have a weird...

[365] Well...

[366] You said some...

[367] So...

[368] Well, I think that everyone's...

[369] And I've seen a lot of tweets of like, is everyone pretty sure they're like weird co -worker, older co -worker?

[370] is the Golden State Killer, yes?

[371] Okay, because I'm doing that too with, like...

[372] I've gotten a lot of the stepfather Facebook messages.

[373] My stepfather was a piece of shit.

[374] So I'm pretty sure he was...

[375] I'm like, dude, I feel bad for you.

[376] I doubt he was a multiple murderer.

[377] But fingers crossed.

[378] Well, here's how I know my dad wasn't it.

[379] So we moved to Irvine.

[380] The first attack and murder happened in Irvine in 81, which is when we moved there.

[381] the other one was in 86, and I asked my parents about it, and my mom was just like, whatever.

[382] And so 86 was when my parents divorced, so we were, like, solo in my mom's house, which is like, and you were cool with that?

[383] Because I know we didn't lock the doors at night.

[384] But my dad, I asked him, do you remember that?

[385] And he's like, yeah, I remember that.

[386] When, 86, when that happened, it was really hard to get a date at the time.

[387] Because women were like, wouldn't go home with you.

[388] And I was like, cool, dad.

[389] Wow.

[390] On top of all the other awful things he did, he made the single scene in Irvine a nightmare.

[391] Let's not forget the way he impacted romance.

[392] Let's all pour out a little for the fern bars that nothing really happened.

[393] Could not wear that member's only jacket.

[394] Yeah.

[395] But yeah, and I love that part of the book where she talks about how, you know, DNA and familial DNA, you know, makes Tom Hanks would be a suspect based on.

[396] on the description, and then she said the filming schedule of bosom buddies that alone.

[397] That alone is what, although we, I remember, I'm going to drop a name here, but we had dinner, she and I had dinner with Steve Martin.

[398] Yeah, about, well, just as she was beginning to work in the book, and she was talking about, you know, writing it, and then she, this is before I showed that, but she said, oh, by the way, you know, based on ancestral DNA, like Tom Hanks could be a suspect, but of course that shooting schedule of those and buddies exonerates him, and then Steve went, Does it?

[399] That was so brilliant.

[400] It would be an amazing reveal.

[401] It would be.

[402] Come on.

[403] That's the, oh.

[404] It would be fun.

[405] It would be fun.

[406] Should we open it up for questions?

[407] Did you guys have any other questions or?

[408] Who did it?

[409] If someone just come forward.

[410] You know, one of the great things about this book being so successful is that somebody that I made a decision very early on in my career not to do any solved murders.

[411] I only do unsolved crimes for 15 years.

[412] That's 15 years of writing stories with no endings.

[413] Nobody really ever wants to hear those.

[414] I mean, eventually they're okay for like a 5 ,000 word story in a magazine or something, but as far as a book or a TV show, no. They want the ending.

[415] And for this to, nobody has really been upset with, hey, there's no ending on this thing.

[416] I think everybody really wants to be a part of it.

[417] I think it's going to be solved within the next five years.

[418] I do.

[419] Well, and I think maybe part of that also has to do with the progression of the digital age, social media, and podcasting.

[420] People who love true crime, they want to solve it.

[421] So there is a part of it where, I mean, I read that book, and then I'm just like, if I could just connect, if I sale, yeah.

[422] And, you know, it's that feeling where, since the answer is out there, that there's the possibility, I think there is an engagement.

[423] It's like that.

[424] Absolutely.

[425] No, we've definitely gotten into the, nobody wants to be.

[426] a spectator anymore in true crime.

[427] Everybody wants to be a participant.

[428] And the ultimate participant would be to solve a murder.

[429] Even more than that, the Grand Slam home run would be to solve this one.

[430] Yeah.

[431] I think though also like on a level of, I mean, I have no, I do not, I know, I know I'm not going to solve this one.

[432] I'm good.

[433] Come on.

[434] You don't know?

[435] I kind of understand this like, you know, when she's writing about, when she's talking about, you know, late at night, writing in her daughter's room and all, you know, the obsession, I think that these less as true crime and, you know, obsessives, understand just wanting to know more and know more.

[436] And when it's an unsolved crime, it's just an infinite amount of information to know and to connect.

[437] And it's just fulfilling in this, in your crazy brain, in your anxiety riddled brain that you, you can, but together we can all figure this out and that we can all know.

[438] Yeah.

[439] And it's just really fulfilling.

[440] It's true.

[441] Yeah.

[442] It is actually true.

[443] Yeah.

[444] Before we open it up for questions, any new developments or updates you can share or want to?

[445] If you don't want to, that's cool.

[446] There's a couple things that had come out since we shipped the book.

[447] One of them was that he had stolen China, a very particular brand of China, and apparently people used to put China in like these plastic bags.

[448] My mom would do that.

[449] I remember that.

[450] Those zipper things?

[451] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[452] He would take them.

[453] And he actually took all the China.

[454] We had not known that before, so they had put that out.

[455] That's a new clue.

[456] We've done our own thing where one of the techniques that I do, I use social media to help police departments around the country solve stuff.

[457] And I saw the, we're looking for people that were of that age, that were in Sacramento that aren't there anymore, that are in on the East Coast or on, you know, we've gotten some people.

[458] And a lot of times when you put stuff out there, you know, like when you said that people are writing to you saying my stepdad did it, you have to be, you can't just be, no, you're an idiot.

[459] You have to be, you're almost like a counselor and be like, oh, wow, that's really horrible.

[460] Well, I send that stuff to you.

[461] Because I cannot deal with this.

[462] But, you know, we got one woman who said that she had encountered him.

[463] And, you know, she wasn't, I don't think she was lied.

[464] I think she definitely was telling the truth, whether it was him or not as another matter.

[465] But that is something that we took her name.

[466] We gave it off to the, I interviewed her, and then we gave it off to one of the detectives.

[467] That could lead to something because.

[468] there could be a police report that noticed a car and then they could trace the car or something like that.

[469] That was not in any of our, any of Michelle's 3 ,500 documents.

[470] We did not have that woman's name.

[471] So that was something that she did do a police report, but it wasn't in any of our stuff.

[472] So there's a lot of stuff that could have fallen through the cracks.

[473] That's one of them that, you know, fingers crossed could lead to something.

[474] And, you know, with an offender like this, the first rape is probably not his first rape.

[475] It's probably not his first offense.

[476] I mean, these offenders have years of parapheric activity like prowling and burglaries.

[477] And, you know, The Ransacker series was the obvious candidate, I think, as a starting point, but I just don't feel it's the same offender.

[478] I think there are too many discrepancies in terms of behavior and physical description.

[479] And Ken Clark in Sacramento was identified two burglary series in Rancho Cordova, which is where the series formerly began.

[480] Burglary series dating back to 1972 that feel very much like this offender, more so than the Ransacker series.

[481] So, you know, that suggests some origin in that area, which, you know, I think, Geography for me is one of the big, you know, clues.

[482] And together with, like, the forensics, the genealogy, I think geography is one of, like, the very few paths to solving the case.

[483] I was reading in the Ransacker part because, of course, I was like, the ransacker is the East Area Rapist, is the Golden State Killer.

[484] But in the part where they were describing his body, then I started this fantasy of he left Visalia knowing, like, the cops were hot on his tail and then started doing like a biggest loser style I'm going to change I am going to change my physical appearance tan up you know what I mean get a little sun and like start doing parkour style exercises you know what I mean like the idea of that I was like well that's a possibility you know yes maybe he didn't match directly but what if he did try to change himself well Holes has argued that they're just two fundamentally different body types like one's an endomorph one's an ectomorph but also the ransacker when confronted behaved in a very conspicuous way consistently.

[485] The ear, when confronted, just kind of was like, hey, how's it going?

[486] And would leave the area.

[487] When, you know, the rancaker was almost like bizarre in his behavior.

[488] The screaming and the, yeah.

[489] Right.

[490] Yeah.

[491] Oh, God.

[492] Don't hurt me. Yeah.

[493] How creepy.

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[530] Goodbye.

[531] Well, let's open it up for questions for a little bit out there.

[532] I'll let you guys moderate.

[533] Yeah.

[534] Yes, hi.

[535] Hi.

[536] What are your thoughts on the accomplice theory?

[537] Hmm.

[538] Is there an accomplice theory?

[539] You know, there's no evidence across like 55 crimes.

[540] There's no actual physical evidence of an accomplice.

[541] He would pretend there was, but there's no evidence to substantiate that there was.

[542] So I don't feel he had one.

[543] Oh, it's like a classic, like, I've called the cops kind of, they're coming, but there's no one really there.

[544] He would talk to like, you know, and then he would whisper back.

[545] There's a, are you maybe referencing, was it the, um, like the janitor at the school that saw the two guys and the matching windbreakers?

[546] Is that what you mean?

[547] No. I'm talking about when the victims were blind holders would overhear him speaking to someone, like this in the van.

[548] And it sounded like there was somebody there with him that they didn't know if that was just an attack to throw them off.

[549] Yeah, and the first attack the victim heard him whispering to someone and in that instance he intimated that he was there with his girlfriend, but I think it was just a charade.

[550] There was no evidence that he had anyone with him.

[551] He was doing different voices.

[552] We know he was doing the clenched teeth voice, you know, and then, but he was also doing other ones, too.

[553] I think that was just a ruse.

[554] He would pretend to be a junkie.

[555] He would pretend to be, you know, mental ill. He would pretend he would adopt, like, Mexican accents and German accents.

[556] And, you know, he was like trying different things out.

[557] But now I have to argue because didn't the ransacker do that when that cop first stopped him and he did the Oki accent?

[558] Well, I don't know that he was, I think he was consistently described as, having had that accent.

[559] But he did, he did, he did pretend to have an accomplice on numerous occasions.

[560] Maybe he was an actor.

[561] Okay, the paint is from painting his play.

[562] Oh my God.

[563] We're back to Hank.

[564] Oh my God, we're back to Hank.

[565] It all comes back.

[566] I say we look at everyone who didn't get S &L when they were in the SNL.

[567] He had like three characters right there.

[568] Yeah, that's right.

[569] So.

[570] Thanks.

[571] I was really struck by the moment when Michelle's voice in the book, ends almost like in mid -paragraph and that it was very kind of moving to move on to the next chapter and have you guys picking this story up can you talk a bit about the professional relationship you develop in front i was working with michelle prior to the book being sold so we had we'd corresponded since i think 2011 um and you know we were sort of like investigative partners i mean she would share leads with me i would share leads with her and uh i saw her maybe three or four times a month.

[572] And I mean, her death was shocking to me. She wasn't ill. It wasn't something.

[573] It was the farthest thing from my mind.

[574] So it was very difficult for me to process.

[575] And I think that there was sort of a blueprint in terms of how she wanted the book structured.

[576] But it was just, everything was just interrupted.

[577] She left an interrupted work, interrupted research.

[578] And so I think it was a challenge to sort through that.

[579] And also, I mean, you...

[580] I mean, that was the first thing I thought of.

[581] You know, I knew everybody else would be thinking of, obviously, think of Patton and think of Alice, I thought, the first thing I thought of this fucking guy won.

[582] And then I thought, fuck this guy.

[583] And I was like, I'm going to do everything I can, you know, no matter what, I'm going to do everything I can to get this out, because I'd want somebody to do that for, there's two reasons.

[584] One, I'd want somebody to do that for me if I was doing it.

[585] And two, I constantly was egging her on to finish the book because we had other projects that we wanted to do.

[586] You know, we were doing a podcast called the Shadow Pulp Radio Hour, which was like this thing that, you know, we would get one call per podcast that was Frank from Burbank, and Frank from Burbank actually was Patton from Los Felas.

[587] Thank you for that.

[588] And then we were, you know, we did a panel at South by Southwest called Solving Murders with Social Media, and we want, and it was just, you know, we had some other projects that we really wanted to do, but she just stopped everything and said, I want to focus on this.

[589] And we would go to lunch once a month, and then she would talk about, about the case and I would talk about my cases and everything but you know it was it was good to have something to do you know we we had all this stuff there and it was like all right well what do we do do with this and how do we structure it and the idea that you know she didn't write about every crime she wasn't ever going to write about every crime I mean that's a lot sporting on rapes is 12 murders at least but we weren't going to write in her voice that couldn't happen because she's such a damn good writer and she's such an intimidating writer too because I didn't write at all of myself while we were working on it.

[590] Then when I went back to write, every sentence I write, I look at it.

[591] When I look at it again, I'm like, damn, that's not good enough.

[592] And then I go back and I try to make it good enough just because I just worked on a book when this woman was just so good at two things that I thought I used to be a good combination of, which was a good writer and a good researcher.

[593] And she was, honestly, I think she was the best one in true crime.

[594] And the success of the book is bittersweet in her absence.

[595] And once this offender is identified, I mean, that excitement will be kind of tempered by the fact that Michelle never learned his identity.

[596] Yeah, it really, it was really terrifying to when she died because, you know, grief feels like terror.

[597] It feels like fear.

[598] But then also, yeah, knowing that this was this thing that she was so obsessed with and so focused on and so on top of the grief was going to be this.

[599] So I, you know, I didn't have that determined moment that you had.

[600] I had the just reaching out to everyone I could, her publisher, these guys, and just begging, could somebody help me finish this book?

[601] And I decided very early on when I read, because she would have me read early chapters that I knew immediately, oh, there's no way we can pick up the writing and finish it.

[602] So it ends where it ends, because if we had picked it up, you would have seen very clearly, oh, that's where Michelle stopped writing, and that's where these guys.

[603] See if you can figure out where Clapton stopped playing.

[604] And this kid with a day of ukulele trainings, but, yeah, no, we, I think I can pick out the exact note.

[605] So, you know, and, yeah, so that, that, and there's also, it's very bittersweet for me because having the book done is another thing where it's another part of her that's kind of gone, like in a very sick way, not having the book done and us working on it meant she was still here, and having that done, and then if he is caught, yeah, that'll be very bittersweet, but that'll be another part of her gone.

[606] And so there's that, you know, there was a lot of push -pull, for me. But then finding that the letter to the old man, which is the coda at the end of the book, it was almost like holy shit, this is so perfect that she's actually taught, you know, all this stuff is done and she's gone and she's really speaking from another place.

[607] It was a way to sort of close an interrupted arc. It was so ridiculous.

[608] Then I saw that.

[609] It was almost precious.

[610] Yeah, we were so happy that we found that.

[611] And if you want to I mean, Harper Collins put out a three -episode podcast about the book.

[612] You can download it anywhere you get podcasts.

[613] But But her, you know, there are recordings and interviews with her where she's talking about the process of writing the book and investigating the crime.

[614] You can hear her voice and how she, you know, would try to puzzle.

[615] I mean, she was a very, very unique personality.

[616] And so if you want to listen to, if you want to hear her voice for real, it's on those, it's on that three -episode podcast that's out there.

[617] But, yeah, it is a, you know, there's, again, to quote James Elroy, there's no such thing as closure.

[618] There's just no closure.

[619] Well, I remember when you sent me the Oak Park chapter, and I was really scared to read it because it's that thing of any one of your friends when they're like, you want to read my script?

[620] And you're like, sure, uh -oh, because it could, you know what I mean?

[621] No, no, I get it, yeah.

[622] You don't want it to be, and anyway, I read it and I just couldn't stop sobbing when it was over because it was that amazing thing of someone is gone, but they have left this amazing body, of work that actually like I went into her life I went into her teenage bedroom you know I mean and with her as the guide I couldn't stop thinking about what you know like her mom reading that chapter and everything about that was just so fucking magnificent that it was just like thank God and then I remember texting you and being like what's going to happen with the book and I wanted to say like do you want me to help you but I really did not want to say that at all and You texted back, like, we've got these great guys.

[623] And I was like, great, great, great, perfect.

[624] Awesome.

[625] Yeah, let me, I don't want to be, yeah.

[626] I didn't want to be involved.

[627] I knew that I couldn't, because it was hard enough for me just to read her writing.

[628] So thank God you guys stepped up.

[629] When we were putting it together, we would send patent stuff, and we knew Patent needed time.

[630] So Patton would, I mean, there were a couple months when you, especially getting through the summer.

[631] Oh, I couldn't do anything over the summer because Alice was out of school and everything.

[632] But I also, I couldn't sit down and read it because I would read a couple of pages.

[633] and I would lose my shit because her voice was right there she was right there like I wanted to I remember one time I was I was visiting my parents at this back in Virginia down in the basement my dad's office and I'm reading and I wanted to go upstairs there was a second where I wanted to go upstairs and tell her that one paragraph was so because in my mind she's just right up there because her voice is right there and I just stopped myself and then it all it hit me all over again like so it just you know it was a very very hard difficult process but also it now there's it's like there is this living document there's something very alive about this book and very you know sometimes when you're writing you get you want to be fancy you want to put something on and be like everyone's going to love this great idea and it actually distances you she is right fucking there on that page so it's like there is a magic to there's a lot of people that talk about writing books all the time the fact that there is so much it's such an amazing book and it does exist Like, it's not the thing she wanted to get done.

[634] Right.

[635] That's, that's kind of incredible, too.

[636] Yeah, it's amazing.

[637] Mike, you just consult, convoluts is on the show.

[638] She seems like such a kind of spirit in a true crime in a crime moment.

[639] But I have a question about that infamous town hall meeting where the guys, you know, wrote Raggedo show about him who would protect his life.

[640] Do you know for sure that that they disposed from that particular?

[641] It's not.

[642] Okay.

[643] And that town hall?

[644] What?

[645] All the work I did.

[646] No, no, no. We stopped telling people, even, that that's not, yeah, because it's just everybody did all that work.

[647] That town hall in which that gentleman spoke up actually took place before the stare rapists began attacking couples.

[648] So he wouldn't have actually said I would protect my wife.

[649] He was just getting into it with the, with the cops.

[650] And that town hall took place before the media blackout was lifted.

[651] Oh, my God.

[652] The, the, so that, that was in, I think, November of 76 and that couple was attacked, I think in May of 77.

[653] So it was some months later.

[654] So do you guys think it was a coincidence?

[655] Michelle believe it may have been.

[656] Yeah, yeah.

[657] That's such a bummer.

[658] That's, I'm sorry, but I'm only going off when she first found out that information and told me she thought it was specifically, but she didn't have all the details at the time.

[659] That's the story she told me and I was like, oh my God.

[660] Yeah.

[661] It's a great story.

[662] Yes.

[663] Well, then you get out of a magnifying glass and you start looking, and if it comes, you're looking for the shooter on the grassy knoll.

[664] You're looking at pixels now, yeah.

[665] Things get told and, you know, like, you have this apocryful version of the story, and it's only when you sort of see the files that you realize that, well, that was actually another blind alley, you know.

[666] It's what these guys say.

[667] Always check the files when you can't check the files.

[668] It's one of the catchphrases of the podcast.

[669] It's what I always say, which is the murderer was at that exact picture.

[670] And I know.

[671] He's in there.

[672] He took the picture for everybody, which was nice.

[673] So just so I understand, you guys did research, but is the writing all Michelle?

[674] All Michelle.

[675] They wrote a section in the back, the third section, and it said by Billy Jensen and Paul Haynes, where they talk about geographic profiling and DNA.

[676] And then I wrote a very brief afterward, it says, by me, but the book is all her writing we didn't add.

[677] And there's even like, and, you know, this is from notes that she, you know, but it's not us our fingerprints are not on any of this stuff it's her writing sort of like you know when they reconstruct like an old silent movie and they don't have all the footage and they use stills it's the same principle yeah yeah so there there were parts in there where there was a part that was missing that we would go into her and her we would go into her emails and even her emails were poet were written in a way that are not just like the regular schlub writes an email like you and i do they're written in a way that were really great yeah you know there was like oh we can We can put that over here, and it was very much like that.

[678] But, you know, she wasn't writing it linearly.

[679] She was very much writing it in these chapters, and it was a matter of how are we going to put the chapters together to make it cohesive, and then, you know, filling in those blanks with what she had, and she certainly had a lot because we had access to her hard work.

[680] Have you still the movie rights?

[681] We're not really talking about that right now.

[682] There's a lot of stuff that's up in the air, but I don't really...

[683] We're at now, it's in a stage where I can't really talk about it.

[684] So, yeah.

[685] Yes.

[686] I want to ask you, go back to what you're saying about Zodiac, Zodiac, Zodiac, what can change all right?

[687] Right.

[688] How did Michelle, and how do you, too, avoid like turning into Jake Gillen -Holl and Zodiac, are you giving up your whole length of this and getting pulled into that obsession that happens to so many detectives?

[689] I have to do a lot of people at these things.

[690] Well, I mean, you know, you approach it because you are a professional.

[691] You've been doing this professionally, so you do keep that distance for it.

[692] I mean, I think with Michelle, unfortunately, you know, not to sound more, I don't think she successfully avoided being completely pulled in by this in the very end.

[693] You know, there was a lot of sleeplessness and insomnia and, you know, I mean, it didn't, it didn't make her, she was still very much a mom and a wife and a, and a friend, but this, the further she got into this, it was, it was clear that she had a real shot at solving this.

[694] And that can be a, that can be some fatal bait, you know, that can really pull you into some depths that you can't get yourself back out of.

[695] Yeah.

[696] And, you know, with me, it's really a numbers game.

[697] There's 15 ,000 murders in America, 5 ,000 go unsolved, which is an insane number when you think about it.

[698] So that means there's 215 ,000 murders that are unsolved since 1980.

[699] I can't get obsessed with just one, you know, because I'm constantly working.

[700] I'm working 20 or 25 right now, and even that's just such a small drop in the bucket.

[701] I was just surrender to my obsessions.

[702] I'm not a very pragmatic person, so.

[703] That's a very graceful way to put that.

[704] Well, you want to do one more question?

[705] One more?

[706] Yeah.

[707] Right there.

[708] You mentioned social media crime solving.

[709] There was a TV show recently that got canceled.

[710] Wisdom of the crowd, but I'm just wondering, is there any such platform?

[711] Is there, yeah.

[712] No, there definitely is.

[713] I work a lot, and I've written a lot of stories about that, about regular people trying to solve solve crimes.

[714] There's a site called WebSloots, which some of you might know, that you can go on and people are discussing crimes.

[715] You can go on, certainly Facebook.

[716] A lot of people will discuss certain crimes on Facebook on Facebook groups.

[717] The biggest thing that you have to, and also Reddit, the biggest thing you have to do is not name names.

[718] If you don't name names, then you're okay.

[719] It's when you start naming names or saying, it's the what about this guy syndrome, where you go, what about this guy?

[720] And then you have a link to a Facebook profile.

[721] That's where you get into terms.

[722] So I really do think, and I'm a big proponent of crowd solving, and I think that it can work as long as it's done the right way.

[723] And one of that is just making sure that you don't name names.

[724] Hey, can I ask one question before we end this?

[725] So I happen to be going up the streets of the movie, stopped in, saw a book in the window, grabbed it, haven't read it yet.

[726] And I'm a little frightened about this.

[727] This type of genre is not really something I'm attracted to.

[728] I'm a little afraid to read it because I don't want to be like.

[729] stay awake at night.

[730] Read it during the day at a coffee shop.

[731] Yeah, read it in the day.

[732] Don't read it at night.

[733] And I'm not saying that that's not cheap hyperbole.

[734] If you're, if that's how you feel, I would, and I've had friends who've written me that said, I had to stop reading it, and I waited till the daytime.

[735] Especially the audiobook, I've had friends make the mistake of listening to it alone at night.

[736] That is a huge mistake.

[737] Read it when you're out hiking in the sunshine with friends and dogs around, but yeah, read it in the daytime.

[738] To me, that's almost creepier when I listen to it and doing it during the day and hiking and it makes everything surreal.

[739] It's the same thing of listening to what was playing on the radio when you're driving through.

[740] It's the same, like, it makes everything feel like a David Lynch movie.

[741] But, yeah.

[742] Everything is a David Lynch.

[743] It is.

[744] It kind of is.

[745] Well, that's where we're living.

[746] We're a living thing in a badly written David Lynch movie right now.

[747] We're not even one of the good ones.

[748] We're an Inland Empire.

[749] No, come on.

[750] I'm sorry.

[751] Let's not get negative.

[752] Don't name name.

[753] Yeah, don't name names.

[754] I want to say as a fan girl, a long -time fan girl, Michelle, how much you guys finishing this book, all three of you.

[755] And I know it's hard because it's, you know, an ending.

[756] It's such a lovely thing to have.

[757] It's on my nightstand.

[758] It's in my phone.

[759] And it's, I'm going.

[760] going to read it and reread it constantly and it just it means a lot that you guys finished it and I know it's hard but they finished it yeah great job you guys amazing and thank you Georgia hardstock and Karen Kilgariff from my favorite murder I'm telling you there are murder how many murderinos are here tonight wow sorry but the entire Portland crowd were murderinos it was all murderinos it's crazy let's uh let's give one more round of applause for our My River Murder, Patton, Philly, and Paul for finishing this book.

[761] It was a pleasure to have you guys.