320 - Gurl, Slow Down

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's George Hart Stark.

[3] Thanks.

[4] That's Karen Kilgariff, who does now a lovely flourish with her hand, not just to pull straight down, our hand gestures when we start.

[5] You know what it is?

[6] I watched on, I can't remember what channel it was, but I watched a fancy ballet show.

[7] That's almost like ballet euphoria.

[8] You know what I mean?

[9] It's like New York City, ballet dancers.

[10] living on the edge some are some are strippers some are on drugs some are competitive you mean rent he watched rent and I just noticed that because I always love to watch shows like that and go did they go to and with ballet I think you have to because it's very difficult to fake if you don't have ballet training it's so specific oh I'm great at air ballet I can fake it just fake it but I kind of can't fake it with it because it's the same hands as religious statues, which I've been staring at all my life.

[11] So you always do like a, do something extra with your middle finger, you know, just kind of fan them out, right?

[12] But this ballet show was very, everyone was so good at ballet that I was like, oh, now, now just everybody's good at show business.

[13] Like, we've all learned, especially the youngsters have learned.

[14] Yeah.

[15] They've been watching screens their whole life.

[16] If they go into ballet, it's like, well, would you like to also star in a series?

[17] It's like, sure, that's, if I can do a ballet, I can act.

[18] It's not exclusive to like ballet companies.

[19] Like, you can do your ballet on TikTok or whatever they do and be incredible at it and have a TikTok ballet career.

[20] It's not like there's like one choice of exclusive ballet or choreography, you know, in general or art. It's like you don't have to be renowned and like plucked out by the important people who say that this is good and this is bad you can fucking give it yourself which is so awesome very true you can kind of get to a spot at least a fakeable spot from ticot although yeah i think that your your number would come up pretty quick if you were faking it or if you were kind of like great on ticot but then you that got you to julyard and it's like right right but now that the 30 seconds have passed yeah can you stay on your toes well they don't get up on those jones or we can all we can all uh photoshop us ourselves on those toes that's true but this show is actually there's a british actor in it ben i never every week we do this podcast and every week i haven't written down last names okay what's it called i'm gonna look it up it's called flesh and bone i believe oh yeah yeah and there's a girl who's bent all the way over at the waist like oh yeah she's putting her forehead on her knees which is like my lifelong dream i don't know i'm i think i'm gonna go what I think I'm going to set that as my...

[21] That's your drink.

[22] To be that bendable, when you have big boobs, you let go of folding in half, like a piece of paper.

[23] Yeah.

[24] The way tiny girls do, you have to let that go in, like, seventh grade.

[25] Yoga is not the same when you have boobs.

[26] It's really not.

[27] Twisting is hard, like...

[28] Twisting's okay.

[29] It's kind of like folding or any kind of, like, bending.

[30] Or, like, when you lay on your stomach and you're, like, supposed to...

[31] to lay your head down to one side and it's like well you have the like in yoga I mean yeah or like child's pose where it's just like this is just I'm just a weird lump right now but god bless because it also maybe and I'm sure there's plenty of people with big boobs who can do it just fine and are like yeah why don't you just try but let me argue this people who aren't arguing with me there's also the if you never do it you get the tension in the back of your legs that keeps you Yeah.

[32] Yeah.

[33] You know what I mean?

[34] That kind of like heal to butt level.

[35] Oh my God.

[36] Tension like yoga.

[37] I just am jealous.

[38] I maybe you should be a TikTok yoga yoga and you don't even have to fucking go to yoga school and become a yoga professional.

[39] You just do it on TikTok and you're like, boom.

[40] I'm just like, okay, look, I am sitting on a chair in front of a computer, but you should be.

[41] I just tell everybody what they should be doing.

[42] Yeah.

[43] Well, you know, I did go to this yoga class at the YMCA in Hollywood years ago.

[44] I don't know if the dude is still there.

[45] But he was my favorite, one of my favorite yoga instructors I've ever had.

[46] He looked like Dan Harmon.

[47] He just exactly like Dan Harmon.

[48] Okay.

[49] He's just, you know, got the pot belly and in no fucking way it looks like a yogi at all.

[50] And he wouldn't do yoga at the front of the room.

[51] The room was packed.

[52] It was like at least 50 something people is a very popular class.

[53] And he just fucking play heavy metal.

[54] the whole time and walk around the room telling everyone what to do.

[55] Didn't show it in the front.

[56] Didn't fucking just was so good.

[57] It was so good.

[58] Was the good part the guiding and leading you verbally?

[59] Yes.

[60] He was a master.

[61] Like he said it with such intentional force.

[62] And now you breathe.

[63] You know, like he was really involved and into it.

[64] He just wasn't doing it.

[65] That may have been an acting class.

[66] I learned a lot.

[67] I learned a lot.

[68] And it was like, doing fucking yoga to lead Zeppelin and like ACDC is like so powerful.

[69] I'm sure the yogis are like, that's not how you're supposed to do this.

[70] I like that though as a kind of crossfit combo idea where you're moving your body in a very specific way, but you're also getting pumped and jacked.

[71] You felt powerful.

[72] You felt like a jock and it was jacked.

[73] jock jams and you're having some jock jams in yoga that's me you know i'm the jock jam influencer can we just for one second say that today is the monday after the sunday of the oscars yeah will smith hit chris rock in the face during the oscars yeah it's almost just like we're dropping the google map pin here yeah to say that happened yesterday it's definitely like a before and after in our life really where were you because i bet you were watching it with a group like you are into the oscars and stuff No. You weren't?

[74] No, I can't watch award.

[75] I don't like award shows.

[76] I love the outfits.

[77] I always, I follow lots of people on Twitter that talk about outfits or do outfits.

[78] Yeah.

[79] And I love that part.

[80] But I can't watch the actual show because I have left over anxiety and stress from writing on award shows and watching hosts go out with stuff.

[81] You help them write and either eat it or win everything.

[82] and get all the accolades of your joke.

[83] It's something I'll never get over because the first time it happened when I wrote a thing and somebody walked out.

[84] I truly laid on my couch.

[85] I'll never forget.

[86] It was my old apartment.

[87] And I just laid on this brand new couch that I bought that was green velvet because it was 2003 or whatever.

[88] I just laid on this couch like stiff as a board.

[89] And I couldn't like look.

[90] I had it on, but I couldn't look at the TV.

[91] And I was like so stressed out.

[92] because it was like, well, this is it.

[93] This is where they find out you're a fraud.

[94] This is where they find out they shouldn't have been listening to you this whole time.

[95] But no, it's not like it says at the very bottom, like, this joke written by Karen Kilgariff, and you'll be fucking roasted in Hollywood.

[96] But in the movie of my life, it is.

[97] Yes, okay.

[98] It also, equally freaky news, it rained so hard today in Los Angeles that the Los Angeles river made it a grand return as it does every couple times a season.

[99] Yeah.

[100] And then a dog had to get rescued out of it.

[101] Did you see this?

[102] No. But listen.

[103] So there's a dog down there.

[104] And it's like Whitewater Rapids crazy.

[105] So apparently a lady had the dog down there.

[106] The lady got rescued.

[107] The dog did not get rescued.

[108] So then a guy jumped the fence and tried to rescue the dog himself.

[109] And he got caught.

[110] He had the dog.

[111] And then the dog bit him because the dog was so scared.

[112] Of course.

[113] And it was a big old dog.

[114] It was a big old dog.

[115] It was a big old dog.

[116] And the guy had him anyway and was holding him.

[117] But he was holding this like one tiny rope.

[118] And then the dog just kind of slipped out of his arms.

[119] Then the helicopter had to come and get the guy.

[120] And then they finally cut back to the dog.

[121] And everyone's like, oh, my God, is this dog going to drown?

[122] And the dog is literally looks like it's walking.

[123] Like the cement is directly.

[124] It's the funniest thing.

[125] The dog is like, can I have a fucking moment to party in this pool, please?

[126] And they actually, they think that the dog got freaked out because the news helicopters were getting so close that he was just like, don't like helicopters.

[127] No, I, no. Not in that scenario where they're having like kind of a, they're being washed downstream.

[128] Did you watch Dog, the movie Dog?

[129] No. It's with the, you know, what's his face that everyone, what's his name?

[130] Jenny Tatum?

[131] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[132] Oh, no, I haven't seen that.

[133] It's cute.

[134] Oh, okay.

[135] You'll cry.

[136] You'll cry.

[137] he kind of sucks his character kind of sucks I'll say Channing Tatum's Like he's such a jock Like a you know He's such a jock but it's cute That's our Channing though It is But he could talk about dance He can he can do all that ballet He could be on flesh and bone yesterday If you wanted to Instead it's Meg Ryan Right And Dennis Quaid Wait no no Am I looking at something else What are you looking at James Kahn Oh, it's a 1993 romance movie Shush TV series You know the new the new Dennis Quaid Meg Ryan series Who are divorced and probably don't like each other that much So sorry Okay, I see it, all right No, no, it's called flesh and bone Oh, it is okay But 2020 The newest Who cares, just watch it everyone This is the gritty reboot If you like ballet and all the trappings I also just love watching people do some pleiaes where it's just like blah I should do that you should play more Karen everyone always says that about you everyone says I'm stiff I have a corrections corner apparently MSU which I mentioned on my last week's story about Carrie Swenson I said her dad worked at MSU which I called Michigan State University look I sometimes there's calls colleges and places that aren't there, like in the place that they say they are.

[138] When you said it, I thought her dad commuted.

[139] And I didn't think it was that big of a deal.

[140] I blame COVID.

[141] I don't have it, but I blame it.

[142] We're all the fighting Timberwolves of whatever college that got offended coming at you.

[143] No. I think people think it's funny at this point when we get something so obviously wrong.

[144] I said they moved to Missouri and her dad got a job that Michigan State got a job.

[145] job there.

[146] They moved there so her dad could get a job there at Michigan State University, you know, in Missouri.

[147] Was Montana involved at all?

[148] Montana.

[149] God, I meant Montana?

[150] Which one?

[151] Montana.

[152] I met Montana.

[153] Look, how am I supposed to keep track of so many M states?

[154] Why are there so many M states?

[155] And why when we pitch this bit to sell to the Oscars, they didn't buy it?

[156] It's so hilarious can we talk about our friend wanda sykes fucking killing it and what oh my god i mean they were all three were that's the thing it was actually very entertaining yeah they should have been more they were in the beginning then they had a couple bits and then nothing yeah and it was a bummer because i actually didn't i didn't watch it i do it this same way every year which is i watched something else and then i just look at twitter to see what's going on yeah this is the first year i watched it and i saw it all live and I was like Vince look up from your phone let's see what you're fucking so you saw it happen live yeah yeah um I do have actually I just remembered a show I started watching and I don't think I've brought it up maybe I did have you been watching our flag is death the restarby pirate show on HBO Max no okay restarby plays like a rich British lord who wants to be a pirate all he wants.

[157] So he makes this really fancy pirate ship, hires a crew, and then goes out to be a pirate, but he doesn't know what he's doing.

[158] What year is it?

[159] Like, is it old -timey?

[160] Pirate timey, yeah, 1700s, I guess.

[161] And then eventually Taika Watiti comes along.

[162] Oh, beautiful.

[163] He is a pirate, and it won't spoil anything else, but it's truly a delightful I just Reistarby is just the most delightful performer and personality for a situation like that it's just so it's so funny what's it called again our flag means death okay um should we do exactly right corner sure hey as you guys know we have a podcast network it's called exactly right media and man there's some good shows on there one of which is the film podcast i saw what you did and and this week's episode host daniel and milly cover a double feature as they always do.

[164] But this time it's the movie Psycho from 1960 and Psycho from 1998.

[165] Yes.

[166] Vince on version.

[167] Vince on.

[168] Got to hear their take on them.

[169] I will absolutely be listening to that one.

[170] Also over on the True Beauty Brooklyn podcast, Alex and Elizabeth are discussing lasers hair removal and skin care this week.

[171] I have so many questions.

[172] I'm excited.

[173] Yeah.

[174] Also, episode four of the new season of Tenfold More Wicked is out.

[175] Now it's called Blood Feud.

[176] I mean Kate Winkler -Dawson is a pro and, you know, she's a true crime legend.

[177] And I believe in about a month season six is starting to take place.

[178] The woman doesn't stop.

[179] She doesn't stop.

[180] Every time we have like a, you know, a roundup of like what's going on with the new season of this and that and it's like, well, Kate Winkler -Dawson is 80 episodes ahead.

[181] Yeah.

[182] Like we're chasing down someone for the like the episode this week A .k .a. us.

[183] And then Kate Wainther Dawson's like, I've already finished season 26 of this show.

[184] Now I'm going to go to my lecture because I'm a professor.

[185] Yes.

[186] I'm literally a professor.

[187] And we're like, we don't want to record this week.

[188] Yeah, exactly.

[189] It rained.

[190] Why do I have to record?

[191] It's cold.

[192] Also, in the MFM store, we're starting him young.

[193] There are several designs of onesies and toddler teas available right now.

[194] So if you are one of those murderino, that's pulling your children into your disgusting pastime, well, then get some merch so that everyone knows that that's what you're doing.

[195] If you're the cool aunt or uncle, like, this is your time to shine and make your siblings question your sanity.

[196] That's right.

[197] So you know how we have the MFM Black and White logo pin and all proceeds from that always go to a really good cause and a charity.

[198] And the most recent one since September has been for the whole women's health, which believes that everyone must be at the center of their own health care decisions and are committed to de -stigmatizing abortion and creating safe spaces for all people.

[199] You guys have raised, with this logo pin alone, 20 grand for Whole Women's Health.

[200] Amazing job.

[201] Whole Women's Health, making sure that abortion access is there for people who need it and also that there's support online.

[202] And now that we have raised that money and we're going to give that money to Whole Women's Health, which is you guys raise that money, actually.

[203] and you're giving that money to Whole Women's Health.

[204] But we'll do it for you.

[205] We'll do the errand.

[206] Don't worry about it.

[207] We're going to now switch the charity, and we've decided that going forward, all proceeds from the logo pin are going to go to the American Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU, as you know it.

[208] The ACLU works to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties guaranteed to all of the people of this country, including trans people's right to live freely, people's right to vote, and abortion care.

[209] for all.

[210] We were so tired of suggesting to each other different charities to give for all these crazy things that seem to be going on politically right now and the extreme laws that are being passed in the middle of the night and these very scary extremes that are happening.

[211] So we decided we're going to take all that energy and all of that need to give and we're going to center it at a place that's actually going to help stop and fight a lot of these very unjust laws.

[212] So it's the ACLU.

[213] if you haven't gotten an MFM logo pin and you would like to give, buy one now and all of the proceeds go to the ACLU.

[214] That's right.

[215] This pin is 10 bucks.

[216] If you've been wanting to give, you know, money to ACLU, you don't have a ton.

[217] You just want to give it a little something.

[218] You get this pin.

[219] If your friend has a birthday and you don't like them as much, you don't like them $20 worth.

[220] I'm saying, if you don't like them $20 worth, go ahead and slap them a $10 worth.

[221] And then be like, but I gave money to the ACLU for you.

[222] You're welcome.

[223] We're turning this country.

[224] around together you and I. And then they'll be like, oh, she likes me fine.

[225] It's fine.

[226] And then you're like free to ghost their party after that, right?

[227] But don't forget to go through their drawers first.

[228] Oh yeah.

[229] Drink their wine and go through their doors.

[230] Okay.

[231] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[232] Absolutely.

[233] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[234] Exactly.

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[248] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

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[250] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[251] Goodbye.

[252] Here's a terrible one for you that I saw recently.

[253] There's a BBC documentary.

[254] about it and I was just horrified.

[255] So today I'm going to talk about Stephen Port, known as the Grindr Killer, and the police failures in systemic homophobia that allowed him to become a serial killer.

[256] So the sources I use today are a heavily used in -depth BBC article written by Daniel D. Simone, that BBC doc called The Grindr Killer, an ITV News staff article, a My London news article by Ella Bennett, a Belfast Telegraph article by Ryan Hooper, an A &E article written by Andrani Basu, some other BBC articles, a guardian staff article, and of course, Wikipedia.

[257] So on June 19th, 2014, at 4 .18 a .m., a man calls authorities to report that he found a young man outside his apartment building on Cook Street, which is in a working class neighborhood of East London called Barking.

[258] He tells the operator, quote, there's a young boy.

[259] He looks like he's collapsed outside.

[260] He could have had a seizure or something or just drunk.

[261] When authorities arrived, the caller's no longer there, but they do find the young man. He is prepped up against the wall and he's already dead.

[262] He's identified as 23 -year -old Anthony Wallgate.

[263] This kid, he's a bright, you know, charming young man. He's described by his mom as, quote, the life and soul of the party.

[264] He's an openly gay fashion design student at the University of Middlesex.

[265] He has these grand plans to become a famous fashion designer.

[266] And no one in his life doubted that because he has this enormous passion for both his career path and life in general.

[267] You see all these photos of him in the documentary and he's just this smiling, happy person, kind face had so much potential.

[268] Basically, authorities determined that he had died of a drug overdose and GHB overdose, which is also known as the date rape drug.

[269] So Anthony's friends and family are baffled by this and are adamant that he wouldn't have died of a drug overdose.

[270] That's he doesn't, you know, use drugs.

[271] In fact, the police constable who was in charge of the scene found it suspicious right off the bat as he saw bruising in blood on Anthony's torso and noticed that his shirt had been hiked.

[272] up as if someone had dragged him to that spot, not that he had died, you know, sat down and died of that drug overdose.

[273] Also, his phone is missing, but authorities tell his mother that it's too expensive to bother tracking the phone and they end up concluding that his death isn't suspicious and it's just he overdosed on drugs he had used and they refused to look into it at all.

[274] How is it too expensive to track a phone when that's literally a one line of collecting evidence in police work.

[275] Also, in England and especially London, there are CCTV footage everywhere.

[276] I can't imagine that also tracking a phone or pinging your phone is that complicated.

[277] Or I don't know, like to, you know, take a percentage out of some other thing and do the thing that actually solves a crime.

[278] Right.

[279] But they don't think it's a crime, so they don't bother.

[280] Oh, because it's an OD, so it's almost like saying everything else is too hard and we've already made our decision.

[281] Yeah.

[282] Like there's nothing suspicious.

[283] is here, why would we bother, right?

[284] Except for the detective thinks it's suspicious.

[285] Yeah, yeah.

[286] That should count.

[287] Right.

[288] And then one of his friends comes forward and tells authorities that Anthony had actually gone to baking to meet up with an escort client named Stephen Port, who just so happened to be the caller who had notified authorities of Anthony's body, the one who said, hey, there's someone outside of my flat, whatever.

[289] And it turned out that it was his apartment.

[290] building, the guy that Anthony had gone to see.

[291] So let me tell you a little about Stephen Port.

[292] He's born in 1975 in Essex.

[293] Growing up, he's quiet.

[294] He's a loner.

[295] All that stuff we've heard a million times.

[296] He's bullied.

[297] He's described by his friends as having strange childlike qualities.

[298] Like he collects toys.

[299] He watches children's cartoon.

[300] There's just something a little odd about him.

[301] In his mid -20s, he comes out as gay and his mom wasn't comfortable with it.

[302] According to his sister, the reason was that she wanted grandchildren.

[303] which doesn't add up, you know.

[304] At 31 years old, he works at West Ham Bus Depot where he cooks for drivers and staff.

[305] He's a cook there.

[306] He moves out of his parents, East London home and into a small apartment embarking.

[307] And now that he no longer lives under his parents' roof, he's kind of free to do whatever he wants.

[308] And he parties.

[309] He's able to have partners stay in the night for the first time.

[310] but he also works as an escort and eventually a pimp for other young men that he's dating.

[311] I was trying to figure out how to describe what he looks like.

[312] And then I looked it up and there is a BBC TV show called Four Lives.

[313] That's a fictional show.

[314] And Stephen Merchant plays him.

[315] Oh, okay.

[316] And it's like spot on.

[317] Wow.

[318] Yeah.

[319] I might watch that.

[320] Yeah.

[321] Four Lives.

[322] So Stephen Porte eventually develops a habit for the drug G. which as we know is referred to as the date rape drug it's a lot of times when it is used as the date rape drug is put into people's drinks because it's tasteless powder and you know it can lead to euphoria but if you take too much it can very quickly cause unconsciousness and death well also i mean this is not i'm just interested in like the use of personal GHB right because i've only ever heard it in date rape drug stories so that idea of where it's like, oh, I'm just going to do a little toot and go out to dinner.

[323] I mean, like, is that a club drug?

[324] Is it just, it doesn't sound like, I understand Molly, you take it and you're still like understanding what's going on around you, but it doesn't seem like GHB is the way to go with that.

[325] I'm going to have to ask some of my drug contacts.

[326] Do you mind if I make several calls?

[327] Would you make a text to your sketchy friends real quick?

[328] I'm going to text a friend and say, have you ever done?

[329] done GHB.

[330] Purposely done it.

[331] What's it like?

[332] Yes.

[333] Just send this real quick.

[334] Listen, we're doing it.

[335] We're boots on the street.

[336] What do they call it?

[337] Boots on the ground?

[338] We're investigative journalists.

[339] We're trying to find the real stories and to deliver it to you.

[340] I mean, this is just my journalistic side.

[341] I have to get down.

[342] Okay.

[343] I'll let you know if there's an answer.

[344] Thank you.

[345] Sorry, I already got a yes.

[346] You did not.

[347] Oh, my God.

[348] whoever that is has been waiting by their phone for decades because they did it in the 90s waiting for that someone asked that question yes why the cops are here the cops are here and they want me to give them some names yes why are you doing GHB girl oh are you doing it he wrote girls slow down oh my god slow down I wrote, what's it like recreationally?

[349] And he wrote, yes.

[350] All right.

[351] So these two middle -aged white ladies now know what it's like.

[352] The answer is yes.

[353] To do GHB.

[354] Oh, he said people used to do it in clubs and they would fall out.

[355] Okay.

[356] So it's basically like, you know, it's like a club drug to basically be high out of your mind.

[357] All right.

[358] Okay, I have to write.

[359] Okay, we're recording.

[360] I'll have to call you later.

[361] Okay.

[362] So when social media networks start becoming popular, Stephen goes out less so he can stay online.

[363] He's got multiple profiles.

[364] You know, he's fucking sketchy.

[365] He makes up fake profiles.

[366] He has real ones.

[367] He uses fake pictures.

[368] He makes up fake stories about himself to like draw people in.

[369] And then he starts using dating websites.

[370] And he seeks out slim men in their early teens or 20s that look really young, often referred to as twinks.

[371] which they mentioned in the BBC documentary.

[372] Also during this time, he starts regularly searching for, quote, drug rape porn.

[373] He's open about his fetish online, one time telling someone that the last, quote, young guy he had sex with was high on GHB.

[374] So having sex with him was like, quote, a rag doll as he was so out of it.

[375] And that's what he's into.

[376] And he looks up all kinds of porn like that.

[377] And he eventually moves on to drugging the young men that he takes back to his part.

[378] apartment.

[379] And the neighbor of his did see a huge amount of GHB or like some powder drug, like too much for personal use and was very concerned about it.

[380] So Stephen eventually moves on to drugging the young men.

[381] He takes back to his apartment, which leads us back to the beginning of the story to June 13th.

[382] When Stephen goes to an escort website and views the profile of 23 -year -old fashion design student, Anthony Walgate.

[383] So on June 14th, Stephen messages, is Anthony and asks if he's available to come to his place for a quote overnight and he says there's 800 pounds in it for him which is more than a thousand dollars in the US here.

[384] Anthony agrees but he you know he's afraid the booking isn't legit and also he's you know tries to be safe about these things so he tells his friend the details and where he's going and then uh he says in case I get killed.

[385] Oh to his friend.

[386] So on the night of June 17th, Anthony rides to the train embarking, meets up with Stephen.

[387] It's unclear what happens over the next 30 hours, but on June 19th at 4 .18 a .m., that call comes in about the unconscious young man outside this flat.

[388] So once those things are put together that he was the caller and who he was going to see, Stephen Ports brought in for questioning.

[389] He sticks with his story at first, but then eventually admits to hiring Anthony.

[390] And he says they, went back to his place and that Anthony took all the drugs on his own.

[391] He had nothing to do with it.

[392] Eventually, you know, they had sex and eventually Port found that Anthony had overdosed.

[393] And so afraid that he would get, you know, arrested for his murder, he just brought him outside and called authorities.

[394] And the police believe him.

[395] So he's released on bail.

[396] Authorities are trying to figure out if he can be charged with perverting the course of justice because he lied about it.

[397] initially.

[398] And of course, the fact that he's just let go and none of his, you know, stuff is searched really upsets Anthony's friends and families.

[399] They're adamant that he wouldn't have died of an overdose, especially self -inflicted.

[400] They ask officers to search Stephen's laptop, which they had confiscated, but the police ignore all of this.

[401] But had they searched his laptop, they would have found all the internet searches that Stephen Port had done for rape porn, along with other suspicious searches.

[402] And it's more than likely that Stephen wouldn't have been able to go on to kill any more victims had they just done some basic background checks.

[403] Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

[404] So on August 23rd of that year, Gabriel Kovari, a 22 -year -old Slovakian man, he moved to London in hopes of becoming a translator, and he moves in with Stephen.

[405] And he just has this, he looks so young and sweet and just, you know, like he needs to be caretaken in a way.

[406] he's just looked so sweet and young.

[407] Gabriel thinks he's going to be Stephen's roommate, but when he gets there, he realizes that Stephen has other ideas that he wants him to sleep with him in his bed and be his boyfriend, and Gabriel's a little creeped out by him.

[408] And so Gabriel stays on the couch and is not interested.

[409] But within a couple days of moving in, Stephen tells a friend that Gabriel had already left to go stay with another man. And then on the morning of the 28th, like less than 500 yards from Stephen's apartment.

[410] A woman named Barbara Denham is walking her dog near the graveyard on the grounds of the church of St. Margaret of Antioch.

[411] So she's an older woman.

[412] She likes to go, you know, this lovely old cemetery walks her dog every day there.

[413] And she finds Gabriel's dead body sitting against a wall in an upright position and she can't believe it.

[414] She's interviewed in this BBC documentary.

[415] He's dishevelled and there are two bad, next to him full of his possessions, although his phone is missing.

[416] And even this, you know, civilian is like, this looks suspicious.

[417] This isn't right.

[418] And just like the first victim, Anthony Walgate, Gabriel's shirt is pulled up, showing his midriff like he'd been dragged there.

[419] Again, officers consider Gabriel's death to be a GHB overdose.

[420] Like Anthony, Gabriel's loved ones have a hard time believing this conclusion and they start doing their own research when authorities won't help at all.

[421] And before the month of August is over, Stephen starts messaging a 21 -year -old named Daniel Whitworth, who's a young, hardworking chef who lived in Kent with his long -term boyfriend.

[422] And on September 3rd, Stephen sends Daniel a message to see if they can get a drink before they had planned to have dinner.

[423] He says, you know, to come over to his apartment for a drink, quote, just so you can get to know me a bit so you know I'm not some psycho.

[424] Mm -hmm.

[425] Mm -hmm.

[426] On September 18th, Daniel leaves work after telling his co -workers, he's going to meet friends and barking.

[427] And then after never making it home to his place that he shared with his boyfriend, Ricky, Daniel, is reported missing.

[428] So on September 20th, okay, again, Barbara Denham, this woman, takes her dog again for a walk.

[429] Same woman.

[430] Uh -huh.

[431] Same older, British, you know, classic lady that you'd meet in a pub or something.

[432] walking her dog through the fucking cemetery and she finds another body no she finds daniel sitting in the same position and the same spot as gabriel can you fuck and she she's interviewed of this and she's just like i i didn't believe my eyes i did not believe what i was seeing yeah you would think you were having like a triggered reaction from the first time PTSD of seeing a dead body and that you were hallucinate that's what i would Right.

[433] Or someone's playing a trick on you or some...

[434] God, that's unbelievable.

[435] Awful.

[436] I know.

[437] He's sitting against the graveyard wall on top of a blue bed sheet.

[438] His shirt is pulled up, revealing his midriff.

[439] His phone is missing.

[440] A small brown bottle is found with his body.

[441] Found a beat containing GHB.

[442] Okay, but here's the thing.

[443] They find with Daniel a handwritten note that's alleged to be a suicide note.

[444] like he had purposely overdosed and killed himself.

[445] In part, it says, quote, I'm sorry to everyone, mainly my family, but I can't go on anymore.

[446] I took the life of my friend Gabriel, the guy had been found in the same place right before him.

[447] We was just having some fun at a mate's place, and I got carried away and gave him another shot of G. I didn't notice while we were having sex that he had stopped breathing.

[448] Basically, he goes on to say in this note, allegedly, that he blames himself for Gabriel's, death so he doesn't want to go to prison, so he's overdosing on purpose because of the guilt he feels about it.

[449] I'm sorry, I must interrupt you to say that's the most suspicious bullshit I've ever heard.

[450] The idea that someone would sit there and list out the technical, like, beat by beat events and reasons is so bullshit and so fake.

[451] Okay, that is not the most suspicious thing you've ever heard.

[452] Here's the last part of the fucking...

[453] Oh, my, excuse me, please continue.

[454] Get ready for this.

[455] Okay.

[456] BTW, this is how it ends with, BTW, please do not blame the guy I was with last night.

[457] No. We only had sex.

[458] Then I left.

[459] He knows nothing of what I have done.

[460] Love always, Daniel.

[461] I'm sorry, the letters BTW are actually on that note.

[462] Yeah.

[463] And then says, don't blame that guy that you're going to see on fucking CCT footage with me. Just forget about it.

[464] him forget about him don't blame that guy oh yeah that's very irritated right now guess who looked into it at the at the met police nobody no not even this one not even this one not even this one and there's just we're gonna get into the clearly homophobic reasons why they just didn't give a shit and didn't look into any of it but partly it's that they had this preconceived notion that yeah these gay men like to party and do a lot of drugs and have sex with each other and so this is all normal day to day stuff why would we look into it right you know right well and also if it's the same thing that happens to sex workers which is yes if the some cops standing there kind of projecting all of his shit onto the scenario and going well if this is the life you so choose then you deserve it I am right judge jury and executioner you deserve you deserve of it.

[465] Right.

[466] That high risk lifestyle that to some people just means that you don't deserve a actual, you know, to be treated like a fucking human essentially.

[467] Which is also just if we could turn around and get the chemical analysis from everyone's bloodstream who would be in the group surrounding, it would just be like, who isn't on drugs?

[468] Who amongst us isn't coping in this day -to -day nightmare life without some pharmaceuticals here and there, whether they be recreational or prescribed.

[469] Like, holy shit.

[470] Well, no wonder it's like a shamed thing in our society that like, yeah, I've, uh, you know, I've done very fucked up narcotics in my life.

[471] I've had anonymous sex before.

[472] I've had one night stands or whatever it is that people have that are just like normal parts of the human experience.

[473] And it doesn't mean anything.

[474] It doesn't mean you deserve serve what's coming to you and also hazard to say that first rate men it's not just a normal part of life it's an absolute celebration it's a high five party right right congratulations to you another notch in your bedpost but god forbid some young gay guy do it and then it's like well well you asked for what did you expect what did you expect fuck yeah it's a very big fuck you yeah it's all about shame and shame based and keeping it that way so it could be us for versus them.

[475] It's going to get worse right now, Karen, ready?

[476] Yeah.

[477] It always does.

[478] But wait, yeah.

[479] I was just say four bodies total, four lives total?

[480] Mm -hmm.

[481] Okay, so there's just one more.

[482] Yeah.

[483] Okay.

[484] So an autopsy shows that Daniel has sleeping pills in his system and then he died from a GHB overdose, which they're just looking for confirmation.

[485] You know what I mean?

[486] Like, he did die from the thing he said in the alleged suicide note, but that's as far as they went to look into it.

[487] no one in a suicide note's going to put BTW.

[488] Like, they take the time.

[489] If these are your last words, you'd write the words out.

[490] And don't blame the guy I was with.

[491] Who the fuck?

[492] Just really.

[493] And then there was another thing I didn't read about him being like, oh, I lost my phone.

[494] It should be back there in the grass.

[495] I mean, okay.

[496] Like he mentions the missing phone.

[497] Yeah, that all the other men also had.

[498] He's covering all them bases.

[499] He just put it all in that note.

[500] And it's the idea we've said this multiple.

[501] times people when people add in 1 ,000 details that's when you know they're lying right right it's just that's the unnecessary details that have nothing to do with it it's me when I'm 20 minutes late and it's like oh my god I was at the gas station and the craziest thing happened you're not going to believe what happened to me just now people are just like Karen just admit it just say sorry that's all you have to do say you're blow drying your hair and it wasn't working just say you once again hypnotize yourself blow drying your hair I do it's So relaxing.

[502] Okay, but the pathologist tells police that, quote, there was bruising below both arms in the armpit region, which is unlikely to have been caused accidentally and may have resulted from manual handling of the deceased most likely prior to death.

[503] So another example of someone being dragged.

[504] Like a fucking amount of things that were in common in these murders, which weren't hard to find.

[505] The families of all these young men.

[506] are putting it together on paper and thank God for these families or I don't think he would have ever been brought to justice.

[507] Oops, spoiler alert.

[508] I guess the police don't investigate Daniel's death as anything more than an overdose.

[509] They never look into what Daniel had been doing leading up to his death or try to identify the man spent the night with.

[510] They don't even test the sheet he was found on or the bottle of GHB for any DNA.

[511] And his family refuses to believe that he had used drugs to begin with, let alone taking someone else's life, you know?

[512] Right.

[513] That's not the person they knew.

[514] Meanwhile, the news of another body found in the same place as Gabriel Kavari is shocking to his friends and family.

[515] They're still doing their own research.

[516] They're putting everything together very easily.

[517] It's like page one of Google, if you look of like the cemetery in that area and suspicious death, it comes up.

[518] Gabriel's loved ones continue pressuring the police to investigate the deaths as more than overdoses, also as related and they're like unwilling to even accept that they're related the authorities.

[519] In January of 2015, Stephen is charged with perverting the course of justice for lying to the police about Anthony Walgate's death.

[520] He's not charged with murder because, quote, there is no suggestion that Stephen bore any criminal responsibility for the death of the young man. He's sentenced to eight months in prison.

[521] So in June of 2015, Stevens released after serving half his sentence There is some good news.

[522] The coroner is about to hold an inquest into the deaths of Gabriel and Daniel.

[523] She has some concerns around the investigation and the handling of their deaths.

[524] Unfortunately, it doesn't bring an end to Port's killing spree.

[525] And in the early morning hours of September 13th, 25 -year -old Jack Taylor, who's a forklift driver, leaves a club and heads home where he lives with his parents.

[526] And at around 2 a .m., Jack is contacted on.

[527] Grinder by Stephen Port.

[528] And so he meets Stephen at 3 a .m. at the train station in Barking.

[529] And 36 hours later, a trash collector finds Jack dead on the other side of the graveyard wall where Gabriel and Daniel had been found.

[530] Oh, my God.

[531] So three bodies in this little area and less than 500 yards away, another body, you know, supposedly overdosed outside left against him.

[532] a wall.

[533] He's propped up against the wall.

[534] His shirt's pulled up over his midriff.

[535] He has no phone on him.

[536] And in his pockets are syringes and GHB.

[537] Police conclude that they have another overdose on their hands.

[538] Jack's family knows that he's not a drug user and they start their own investigation.

[539] They figure out about the other two young men who had died in the exact same area.

[540] And Jack's sister Donna later tells the BBC that Jack was not a drug user.

[541] and that she knows he wouldn't have gone to this, like, you know, kind of run -down cemetery, sat down and, like, shot up.

[542] And she's like, what are the chances that the other two men had done the same thing?

[543] It's just unbelievable.

[544] Yeah.

[545] To civilians.

[546] It's ridiculous.

[547] It's ridiculous and offensive.

[548] So Jack's sister starts doing all this research.

[549] They're, like, you know, putting these graphs together of all the similar points of all these deaths.

[550] They keep trying to get the police to pay attention to it, and they won't.

[551] just like they're not connected, even though it's just so obvious.

[552] They meet with the police and Jack's family is told that they found CCTV footage of Jack walking down the street with a tall, blonde man hours before his death.

[553] And the Taylor family insists that they put the picture of this man he was walking with up in the newspaper to see if anyone could identify him.

[554] And after the police realized that they had misidentified another man, walking off on his own as Jack they realized their mistake thankfully and put the picture in the newspaper on October 13th and they almost immediately receive a tip from a barking police officer who's like that's Stephen Port like he is connected to all of these he realizes it thank God on October 15th Stephen is finally arrested on suspicion of killing all four men he's charged with four counts of murder it's a very complex trial but there's all this evidence to get him including DNA, the fact that the blue sheet that Daniel had been found on is from Port's own bed.

[555] Yeah.

[556] An old cell phone Stephen had is found to have 83 homemade sex videos, some showing Stephen raping unconscious men on his bed.

[557] I mean, it's very, very dark.

[558] And then eight other men, because of the media coverage, come forward and say they'd been drugged and raped by Stephen as well.

[559] They have the same story.

[560] They met Stephen online, and after meeting in person, he spiked their drinks.

[561] injected them with a small syringe, they'd lose consciousness and wake up with Stephen raping them.

[562] At Stephen's fall, 2016 trial, the prosecutor paints Stephen as a, quote, voracious sex predator who appears to have been fixated with surreptitiously drugging young, often vulnerable men for the exclusive purpose of rape in that he's a highly devious, manipulative, and self -obsessed individual.

[563] So 41 -year -old Stephen Port is found guilty of all four murders and numerous offenses involving seven of the eight rate victims who came forward.

[564] He's later sentenced to a, quote, whole life order, which means he'll never be released.

[565] And in December 2021, there's all this press coverage about how the last three victims could have been saved had the investigators done any fucking basic research into these murders, you know?

[566] Yeah.

[567] So in December 2021, a jury rules that police fail.

[568] quote, probably contributed to Gabriel, Daniel, and Jack's death, probably.

[569] Had they investigated Anthony's death, they may have found Stephen killed him.

[570] An inquiry into how homophobia in the Met Police played a part in the investigations found that the jury had been told by the coroner student Monroe, like, to not even consider homophobia and discrimination as a contributing factor.

[571] So, like, you're not even allowed to say that, obviously, to save their own asses.

[572] the Mets say the failure to catch port sooner wasn't because of homophobia but a lack of quote personal curiosity by the officers so it had nothing to do with homophobia yeah but if it's your job to be personally curious about the crimes that happen and like on your watch and on your beat you don't get the option of not being curious it just shouldn't come into play it's not then quit the job it's so obviously bullshit that it wasn't about curiosity and being bored at their job or whatever.

[573] It's like there's four murders that are so, like every family member has put it together and you can't put it together.

[574] That is purely biased.

[575] Yeah.

[576] So Helen Ball, the head of the Metropolitan Police's professional standard, says, quote, we don't see institutional homophobia.

[577] We don't see homophobia on the part of the officers.

[578] We do see all sorts of errors in the investigation, which came together in a truly, dreadful way.

[579] So like won't even cock to the idea that there was homophobia involved.

[580] If they don't see it, maybe they shouldn't have their job since it's blatantly obvious and everyone else can see it.

[581] That's a great point.

[582] You still don't see it?

[583] Oh.

[584] You still don't see it?

[585] Well, you got to go to then.

[586] Yeah.

[587] Because it's right fucking there.

[588] It's right fucking there.

[589] So following Stephen Port's convictions, an inquiry into the original investigations is ordered and 17 police officers are investigated by the independent police complaints commission as of this recording it doesn't appear that any of the 17 officers involved in the stephen port investigation have been held accountable for their actions and it doesn't seem like they will the family and friends of four young men murdered by port are relieved he won't hurt anyone else and my god these people are so strong and so they were so determined to get action taken but of course they're all left with questions about who would have been saved had the police done their job from the beginning and that's a big part of this case and more so if the systemic homophobia that's rampant in the police force hadn't been a factor it's obvious that gabriel daniel and jack would still be alive today and that is the murders of anthony wallgate gabriel cavari daniel whitworth and jack taylor that's just so frustrating also because it's like Stephen Port didn't just murder them but then was trying to like defame their name after the fact like the idea of accusing one of the victims of being the murderer himself just as this really cynical way and really clunky lame way to get out of it it's just like it was clunky he wasn't smart he didn't do a great job he didn't have He didn't have to, right, which is the worst.

[590] It's awful.

[591] I hope I did that story justice because it really is just, like it sounds like a story from the 1990s of how the LGBTQ community was treated.

[592] But it's from 2016.

[593] Well, also, you know what it sounds exactly like.

[594] It's a British Ed Buck.

[595] This made me think of it because this Jasmine Canick, who is the reporter, when I did the Ed Buck story, most of the research was her journalism and her, basically, chasing the story when no one else would touch it because ed buck is a rich white man and he was basically luring gay black men to his apartment to like quote unquote party and he had the exact same thing that this guy had and he was into basically drugging and raping and murdering these men and it it took so many of these men to die before anyone would even like turn an eye to it it's horrifying.

[596] God, these poor families and what they're put through constantly because these megalomaniacs won't just fuck off.

[597] I don't know.

[598] Yeah, it's really rough.

[599] It's an important story to tell, though.

[600] I think you did a great job.

[601] I think you did a great job with it because also, I think I've heard bits of that story, but to hear it all together and the fact that it was so recently is, you're right, it's really disturbing.

[602] It's not 1979.

[603] Right.

[604] And he's a serial killer.

[605] Like, I had heard bits of it, too, and didn't put all the people together who he had killed.

[606] He's a serial killer that's dumping bodies like 100 feet from his own goddamn apartment.

[607] That's insane.

[608] In front of his apartment.

[609] And then admitting he fucking put him there.

[610] Yeah.

[611] It's awful.

[612] Awful, awful.

[613] Great job.

[614] Thank you.

[615] Thank you.

[616] So I'm going to tell you a story that you've probably already seen a documentary about.

[617] Touching the Void.

[618] Have you seen that documentary?

[619] Don't remember anything.

[620] Oh, you know that from this afternoon.

[621] back.

[622] So this is a story of two guys trying to climb the Peruvian Andes and getting themselves into a bunch of trouble, trouble that it seems like there would be no coming back from.

[623] And yet, it is a survival story.

[624] So let's do it.

[625] Right.

[626] Okay.

[627] So.

[628] Classic.

[629] Karen Kilgariff, classic.

[630] A classic.

[631] And really a true Karen Kilgariff classic in that I'm taking what somebody has already put in all the hard work and dedication into making and I'm just going to retell you like a 28 minute version of the thing that's already been executed perfectly that you could just go directly and watch.

[632] But have we?

[633] We haven't and we give them all the accolades.

[634] So it's okay.

[635] Maybe I'll be the stepping stone for you to finally go watch this if I tell you a partial version.

[636] And then when you watch it with your significant other, your roommate who doesn't listen to this podcast for some reason.

[637] You can say, oh, my friend Karen said this part's exciting.

[638] Oh, my friend Karen right here said this.

[639] Yeah, I mean, I would love to be folded into more couples' conversations because there's nothing better than to be brought up by the girlfriend to the boyfriend.

[640] They love it.

[641] Boyfriends love it.

[642] Let him know you have a friend, at least one friend.

[643] How many times have you met a guy where it comes up to you and goes, hey, are you from my favorite martyr and you're just like, uh -huh, where's your girlfriend?

[644] Where's your girlfriend that didn't want to come over and say hi?

[645] That you're doing it for her.

[646] The one hiding in the corner is like, hey!

[647] And then you're like, get the fuck over here.

[648] So the sources for this are, of course, touching the void the documentary, which you can watch on Amazon Prime and should.

[649] There's a Wikipedia page about Joe Simpson, the Mountaineer.

[650] There is an article by Oscar Gorgosa from the El Pais.

[651] I don't know.

[652] I actually don't know.

[653] But it's a newspaper.

[654] There's a Washington Post article by Deson Thompson.

[655] There is a Rich Roberts, L .A. Times article.

[656] There's an Elaine Williams article from the T .E .S. newspaper via T .E .S. Connect.

[657] And there's an L .A. Times article by Kenneth Turan talking about the documentary.

[658] So it's 1985.

[659] And there are two British climbers slash mountaineers.

[660] Their name's Joe Simpson.

[661] Joe's 25 and Simon Yates and Simon is 22 and they have set out to make the first ever ascent of the West Face of the Swila Grande there's no way I said that right There's no way.

[662] It sounded good though Thank you.

[663] Go with it It's a mountain in the Peruvian Andes okay so it's as yet unclimed we know a lot about the Andes because that's where our alive plane crash took place another great retelling of a film that I did for a survival story, I won't ever stop.

[664] Okay, so both Simon and Joe are fairly experienced climbers for their ages, but the nearly 21 ,000 -foot first ascent, especially given the frigid conditions towards the top of the mountain, and the fact that they're doing it alpine style, which means they're doing it all in a single go with most of the belongings on their back, right?

[665] So they're doing it old -fashioned, basically.

[666] Yeah.

[667] It is a huge, dangerous undertaking for even the most experienced climbers.

[668] Joe and Simon, however, welcome and crave the challenge.

[669] So they're like, no one's done it.

[670] This is really hard.

[671] We're up for it.

[672] We're young and we're strong and we're British.

[673] Oh, if only.

[674] Right.

[675] If only I could bend at the waist.

[676] After a two -day walk from the nearest road, the guys get to the foot of the icy mountain.

[677] And there they meet a camper named Richard Hawking, who agrees to look after their tents as they set out for their climb.

[678] So Richard's like, yeah, I'm down here.

[679] I'm not going to go do the thing you guys are about to do, but I'll watch your shit for you.

[680] Okay, cool.

[681] I mean, that's an important job, all right?

[682] Watching someone's shit.

[683] As the girl who will absolutely sit with all purses while my friends dance.

[684] Or ski or whatever.

[685] It's just like there needs to be people that are willing to hold down the fort.

[686] And it's me and it's Richard Hawkins.

[687] And it's the thing of cocoa and some whiskey in it.

[688] And I don't need to prove myself.

[689] No. I can prove myself.

[690] over here with it socializing with a bartender.

[691] You go do your thing and try to prove to your dad that he should have paid more attention to you.

[692] God bless.

[693] Oh.

[694] Okay.

[695] Knowing that their stuff is all secure, they set out for the climb early in the morning.

[696] They've got ice picks.

[697] They've got spike shoes, the whole outfit.

[698] Sure, sure.

[699] But they find the climb is even more intense than they'd anticipated, although they're making good time and they're having fun doing it.

[700] He made that up.

[701] This is one of Jay's last pieces of research for me. And he left in.

[702] They're making good time and they're having fun doing it.

[703] And it made me laugh so hard.

[704] I dated a guy once that used to come home from the gym every day and do a character, like a trainer character that he goes, he had to tell me every day about different parts of his body that he worked out.

[705] So he'd be like, Karen, today, I did my delta, did my glutes.

[706] And I had fun doing it.

[707] He would do like a whole speech and it always ended with it.

[708] and I had fun doing it.

[709] Oh, I love it.

[710] And so that just kind of made me laugh.

[711] Okay, so workout guys, working out in the snow.

[712] So they have a successful first day climbing.

[713] That night they set up camp on the mountain.

[714] They melt snowed for drinking water, right?

[715] Sure.

[716] Classic.

[717] It's the classic snow climbers.

[718] Classic water.

[719] I mean, here's a thing.

[720] You and I, Georgia, as I look at her on Zoom right now, is sitting in a lazy boy recliner.

[721] Yeah.

[722] I'm wearing the same, right?

[723] And she can lift one leg slightly above her head, which is doing.

[724] I've been wearing the same set of pajamas, or at least the same, looks like the same pajamas, for three years in a row.

[725] The idea of climbing to a place to then get into thin air freezing temperatures to melt snow to drink it for water is just like, words fail me. like you know there's water in your sink right like you don't have to go up a fucking mountain look I get it people like hiking people like outdoorsy shit you and I are particularly like not outdoorsy no whatever whatever but like I guess pushing yourself is a thing on yes that's what it is there's challenges and then there's like I want to go be as uncomfortable as I can and also in the way, I just, I really don't like being cold.

[726] Oh my God, it's the worst.

[727] You know what it is?

[728] Death Defying.

[729] If those words are involved, I'll hide Griffith Park all day long.

[730] Yes.

[731] Right?

[732] Right.

[733] I will.

[734] I actually.

[735] Not at all.

[736] But not at all.

[737] Let's say I would.

[738] Death defying though.

[739] That's where I Yeah.

[740] It's hard stop.

[741] It's kind of agreeing to a thing casually, like looking at a person like, we should totally do this.

[742] And in your minds, you know, one false move and you're going to tumble to an icy death.

[743] I mean, that's just like, it's real.

[744] brave okay so that's that's the word okay go on but they're having fun doing it but they're having fun doing it so the next day they start climbing again so here's an important detail joe and simon as they climb are tied together by ropes so simon would later say the rope can be something that rather than save your life kills you if you're going to do that climb at some point you're going to have to rely solely on your partner so the surface that they're climbing is so slippery um the snow is covering huge holes and cliffs and think like they think they're walking on a straight path because it's all snow but actually it's just like one false step and everything beneath them falls away i mean that's just like how it is in this part of the mountains it's why no one climbed it before right it's why you're the first yeah so as they get closer to the summit the weather of course what happens to the weather does it get better georgia No, not in the mountains.

[745] There's no better weather in the mountains.

[746] No, it's snowing really hard.

[747] The men are freezing.

[748] Of course, their visibility is limited.

[749] Yeah.

[750] The winds are blowing at high speeds.

[751] It's making it both colder and harder to move quickly.

[752] So also they can't, like, sit around, right?

[753] So they can't like, so you have to keep moving.

[754] Right.

[755] You have to keep moving.

[756] You have to keep going upward.

[757] But the more you do, the harsher the environment gets.

[758] Yeah.

[759] that's a mountain that's what a mountain does that's mountains baby like let's get real that's like a mountain's job that's what mountains do to you so it basically it took them five to six hours just to climb 200 feet so like almost the day basically so as darkness sets in they call it a night they dig themselves a cover in the snow and they go to sleep in the snow in the snow so they wake up the next morning for the third day of climbing the snow has let up a little bit but the fresh snow has completely changed the landscape so they thought they kind of thought they knew where they're going and what it looked like and everything like that and now it's all just one big white patch so yeah it's no they don't know if they'll be able to grab onto steady holds for the rest of the journey this is also that like you know you've seen Alex Honnold the guy that like free climbs half dome like with his hands and feet no but i picture it he's like got the thing there and the thing just getting little so no those guys do it with their hands these guys do it with like ice picks and yeah spiky boots and stuff yeah they still have to find those same pieces of rock and whatever to hold on to to get upward it's in the snow with ice damn it okay sorry no i'm i'm just re -explaining alpine climbing to you.

[760] I can picture it.

[761] Right?

[762] It sounds terrible.

[763] Well, anyway, they don't know if they can find their handholds, but what do they do?

[764] They press on anyway, because that's...

[765] Of course they do.

[766] Because they're 22 and 25.

[767] Never give up.

[768] Never surrender.

[769] Never.

[770] Always play Brian Adams as loud as you can.

[771] So by 2 p .m. on day three, they actually reached the summit, and they're the first mountaineers ever to scale this climb.

[772] So they stand, there they take in the sites they're like it's us we did it and then they get ready for their descent so they're both nervous about this because 80 % of all climbing accidents happen on the way down so the descent is the dangerous part of a climb like this they've mapped a route down from the north ridge of the mountain which they believe should be easier than the way it was coming up but as they begin walking along this ridge they find the journey as much more difficult than they anticipated given these extra layers of snow it only takes around an hour and a half before the guys get so lost in a white out from the blowing snow and the cloudy skies that they just have to wait for a break in the clouds essentially so simon is leading the way at this point and he sees what he believes to be the ridge so he heads for it and he's right he is heading toward the ridge but as he moves forward over a patch of ice, that ice just gives way underneath him.

[773] And he nearly falls off the side of the mountain.

[774] He doesn't.

[775] But now Simon and Joe have to like stop and collect themselves and continue along this ridge path that they realize the ground can just fall out from under them anytime.

[776] Cool.

[777] Ice sinkhole.

[778] That's not.

[779] So it's very slow going.

[780] And by the time they pack it in for the night, they're still 20 ,000 feet up the mountain.

[781] So they haven't really descended very far at all.

[782] Yeah.

[783] So on day two of the dissent, which is day four total, Joe looks back at the path that they took the day before and figures that they have already passed the worst part of the journey downward.

[784] He thinks they're going to be able to finish the descent by the end of that day until they come to a surprise vertical wall in their path.

[785] Yeah.

[786] So suddenly they're completely blocked.

[787] Joe heads down the wall first.

[788] So they have to basically use their pickaxes and their spiky.

[789] boots repel down this wall or scale down the wall.

[790] Things start off smoothly.

[791] But as Joe moves one axe with one hand, the ice holding the other axe breaks and sends him crashing downward.

[792] So he has a nasty fall.

[793] Now, here's a trigger warning for what happens to him in terms of his injury that's kind of a bummer.

[794] It's a bone break.

[795] And it's a bummer one.

[796] So if you don't like stuff like that, we don't want to upset anybody.

[797] but Joe crashes on the ledge below and breaks his tibia your tibia is the big bone in your it's like your shin bone the big bone in your lower leg it's driven up through his knee joint yeah I know it was coming out somewhere I don't I knew it I knew it yeah it's bad it's bad so up on the mountain on the icy stormy mountain now he's fallen and it's bad it's bad yeah yeah fucked oh dude so in normally when this happens a climber this high up on a mountain with a broken leg this bad is as good as dead and joe knows it oh yeah he looks up to simon with terror and tells him his leg is broken simon throws joe some pain killers and he silently weighs his options so essentially he can say himself and leave his friend yeah or he can try to help Joe out and risk both their lives and imagine being in that position that's one of the many things you've been rolling the dice with not just with your own life but then with this almost like a horrible moral situation to try to figure out what to do totally I'm thinking about it right now I'm like hey Vince you stay behind here I'm out like I would never be like well here we go hold my hand if you were the person with the bone break you'd be like don't you dare fucking leave me down here and then if you were the one and when i say you i mean all of us and then if you're the one at the top looking down you'd be like man that's rough for you oh well no you wouldn't look okay no you wouldn't and actually simon simon takes a moment he like calms down he stops panicking and he's like of course i have to help my friend out of there yeah yeah so they come up with a plan They basically, they've got their two ropes, and each of their ropes are 150 feet long, which means 300 feet altogether.

[798] So they tied the ropes together, and there's a knot in the middle.

[799] So the entire length, obviously, is 300 feet.

[800] Simon can anchor himself into the mountain side and then use this rope to lower Joe down 300 feet at a time.

[801] But because of the knot, every 150 feet, Joe has to stand on his good leg and give Simon enough slack to understand.

[802] clip and then reclip the rope around the knot.

[803] So then once they reach the end of the 300 foot rope, Simon scales down by himself to join Joe, and then they repeat this process again.

[804] So it's essentially figuring out the way to get a man with a fully horribly broken leg, like down this mountain and out of this situation.

[805] And it actually works.

[806] It goes, it's really slow going but their plan is working.

[807] But then another storm kicks in.

[808] Now they don't have time to stop.

[809] They've run out of gas to melt snow for water or heat their food.

[810] They basically can't stay there anymore.

[811] They have to keep going down the mountain because there's no living on this mountain or surviving on this mountain.

[812] So Joe reaches a particularly steep part of the mountain.

[813] He yells to Simon to slow down, but Simon can't hear him because of the storm.

[814] Joe slips and falls over a hidden ledge and when he finally comes to a stop he's hanging above a crevasse in the mountainside and that's not the last time I'm going to say the word crevasse I'm going to say it about 25 more times you have to get comfortable with it now I am I am okay so Simon meanwhile is up above and has no idea what has happened right he doesn't know that he's fallen when he reaches the knot he tugs on the rope to let Joe know he has to stand to give him some slack.

[815] But when he tugs on the rope, nothing happens.

[816] And he doesn't get any slack.

[817] And that's because Joe's dangling above the crevasse.

[818] There's nothing for him to put his good foot on.

[819] There's no way to get anything.

[820] He's just hanging there.

[821] So now Joe's only chance of getting out of this situation is climbing back up the rope to get to solid ground.

[822] The broken leg guy has to climb back up the...

[823] And he tries several times, but he doesn't have the strength or the energy to do it.

[824] Meanwhile, Simon's in this desperate position.

[825] He's freezing cold.

[826] He's holding Joe's full weight as best he can.

[827] And he does this for a full hour.

[828] And he finally comes to terms with the fact that something is terribly wrong with his friend, Joe, at the end of the rope.

[829] He realizes he only has one choice if he's going to save himself, and that's to cut the rope.

[830] So he pulls out his penknife and he cuts the rope.

[831] that connects him and Joe and by doing so he seals his friend's fate but for Joe although Simon assumes this means sudden death for Joe but he doesn't he assumes he like thinks he's already dead or something like something terrible's happened and he can't just sit there and hold on forever and hope for the you know it's a horrible situation but meanwhile on the other end of the rope Joe is not dead and this basically is the next part of his adventure is just beginning.

[832] So let's talk about Joe Simpson for a second.

[833] He was born on April 13th, 1960, one of five kids growing up a British Army brat in Malaysia where his dad is stationed.

[834] His family moves around a lot during his childhood.

[835] When he's eight years old, in 1968, he starts school at Ample 4th College, which is a prep school in North Yorkshire, England.

[836] And this is where he meets his chemistry teacher, Richard Gilbert, who introduces him to the sport of rock climbing.

[837] So Gilbert takes Joe and his classmates out to the mountains like Peek Scar and White Stone Cliff to teach them how to climb, and Joe stands out of the pack as a natural talent.

[838] So this spurs Joe's love of the outdoors.

[839] He joins the school's Venture Scouts group, but because of his stubbornness and his disdain for authority, what, whooot, what, who traits he attributes to his tough military dad, he isn't allowed to join the student mountaineering expeditions.

[840] that the school organizes.

[841] He can't be tamed.

[842] Oh, good for him.

[843] Yeah, he's a rebel.

[844] So this rejection only spurs Joe to go on his own expeditions by himself.

[845] Because he's an army brat and he's actually maladjusted, as we all are.

[846] In 1978, Joe graduates from Ampleforth.

[847] He goes on to study English literature and philosophy at Edinburgh University.

[848] Up until Joe was 14, he was very religious.

[849] He even wanted to.

[850] to become a priest, but then he questions aspects of Catholicism, finds answers.

[851] He's given unsatisfactory, and he ends up turning away from religion and instead focusing on climbing.

[852] So it was going to be the church or the mountain, and he picked a mountain.

[853] He also is inspired by reading the climbing book, The White Spider, by Heinrich Herrer, and he spends his summers climbing in the Alps.

[854] So by the time he graduates from Edinburgh University in 1984, he's less concerned about starting a practical career and he's more concerned about finding his next great adventure.

[855] Amen.

[856] Right?

[857] So what he can't know is that one day he will find the biggest adventure and all the danger and risk that comes with it.

[858] So we're back on the mountain.

[859] Okay.

[860] So Simon has just cut Joe loose.

[861] Simon's doing everything he can not to be concerned.

[862] assumed by thoughts of his dead friend.

[863] He makes himself a snow shelter.

[864] He tries to get some rest for the night.

[865] It's impossible for him to get warm.

[866] His thirst is so overwhelming that in touching the void, he actually describes it as being able to smell the water in the snow.

[867] He's so thirsty.

[868] And he just is trying not to think about what he just did or had to do.

[869] And that his friend is lying dead somewhere.

[870] Meanwhile, little to Simon know his companion isn't dead.

[871] Joe awakens to find himself between two slanted surfaces slowly sliding downward into the darkness.

[872] He's fallen about 150 feet and has somehow miraculously survived that fall.

[873] Holy shit.

[874] Yes.

[875] He's fallen very far and yet didn't hit anything except for, he must have hit that leg.

[876] He must have hit that leg.

[877] I mean, God damn it.

[878] Okay.

[879] He looks around at the narrow icy shoot that he's stuck in because he's wearing his headlamp still.

[880] And although the battery is dying, he can still see a little bit as he's looking around.

[881] So he's able to clip himself into one of the walls of ice right before his headlamp battery dies.

[882] And that keeps him from sliding any further.

[883] Joe notices that his rope is still stretching upwards towards the opening of the crevasse.

[884] He's thinking Simon is still tied to the other end and that maybe Simon's dead from.

[885] falling over the other side from where he fell, like that they basically both fell on either side.

[886] So thinking he might be able to use Simon's dead body as a counterweight to pull himself up out of this hole that he's in, Joe starts pulling on the rope and soon the end of the rope falls down towards him with no one on the other end.

[887] Oh, how did he feel when he saw that?

[888] He saw this rope's been cut.

[889] I mean like, and then you're just down in a weird ice shoe.

[890] by yourself.

[891] Yeah, a luge.

[892] A real slow, scary luge.

[893] Okay, so Joe starts to wonder if the cut rope means Simon's still alive.

[894] So he starts to yell for his friend calling his name.

[895] No one answers.

[896] All he can hear is the wind and the ice of the crevasse cracking and settling.

[897] Horrifying.

[898] Of course, loneliness and fear set in.

[899] it looks like this may be the end of the 25 -year -old's life.

[900] So he starts crying.

[901] He cries himself through the night.

[902] So sorry, really quick.

[903] It's cold.

[904] You're just hanging in the middle of an ice shoot.

[905] Your tibia is smashed up through your kneecap.

[906] You're thirsty.

[907] Your friend might be dead or cut you lose.

[908] Or cut you lose.

[909] But either way, you're feeling pretty goddamn rejected now.

[910] Sure.

[911] Just like when they wouldn't let you join the St. Martin's Mountaineers or whatever the hell that thing is called.

[912] Yeah.

[913] It's dark.

[914] Cancel.

[915] Please no, thank you.

[916] It's dark.

[917] Okay.

[918] So morning finally comes.

[919] This is now day five.

[920] Okay.

[921] Now, Simon, he's basically going to start his way down the mountain again from his, like, where he camped for the night.

[922] On his way down, he sees the crevasp that Joe must have fallen into.

[923] He considers looking down into it, but he's afraid to see.

[924] see his friend's dead body and he's positive Joe must be dead if he got cut from that rope so he can't look and he just keeps walking well meanwhile Joe wakes up in the morning and he comes to the realization that if Simon is descending the mountain he will pass this crevasse right where he's hanging so he starts yelling Simon's name and calling out for him Simon can't hear him of course because the wind it's like constant wind yeah I imagine that's at editorializing on my part.

[925] It is constant whistling land.

[926] Yeah, screaming.

[927] So Joe doesn't give up.

[928] Instead, he tries to scale the ice and get out of the crevasse.

[929] It would be nearly impossible for a person who had two fine legs.

[930] So like he's trying to basically scale upward and he can't do it, but he doesn't want to quit.

[931] Then he realizes he has a choice.

[932] He can sit there and wait, hoping that someone's going to come and save him, which he knows is very unlikely.

[933] Yeah.

[934] Or he can lower himself deeper into the crevasse in the hope that maybe he can find solid ground to stand on down there and then somehow find his way out.

[935] Oh, my goodness.

[936] So basically he decides to plunge deeper into the abyss.

[937] He steadily repels lower, relying on his good leg.

[938] The climb is impossibly long and he has no way of knowing what's waiting for him at the bottom.

[939] So Simon, meanwhile, reaches a glacier along.

[940] his descent.

[941] So they're dangerous to cross, especially when you're alone.

[942] Normally you'd be roped to other people and it would be, you know, there'd be a whole system to do it.

[943] He just has to walk across it by himself.

[944] The snow on top could be covering more hidden crevasses, like pitfalls everywhere, but he has no choice.

[945] So Simon has to walk out across the glacier alone and he ends up being able to do it.

[946] He ends up crossing without incident.

[947] So in a few hours, Simon is nearing the bottom of the mountain, and that's when he realizes, oh, my God, I have to go and I have to explain to everybody what happened and what I did.

[948] And he starts, of course, freaking out.

[949] And so he already had, you know, this kind of like, you have to get through it, don't think about it mentality when it first happened.

[950] But now he's like, oh, I absolutely have to think about it.

[951] And he's like, is everyone going to hate me for what I did?

[952] Is there?

[953] And then he's thinking, maybe is there another story I can make up to tell.

[954] that what happened so I don't look bad or selfish or and he's just, you know, freaking out.

[955] Yeah.

[956] He's thinking, will anyone understand the impossible position I was put in and the awful decision that I had to make?

[957] Because in the climbing community, it is completely taboo.

[958] It's just not done to leave anyone behind.

[959] That's just like rule number one.

[960] But if you think they're dead, then you can't.

[961] It's like that, remember I did the bodies of Mount Everett?

[962] and it's like if you don't leave someone behind and you stay with them even if they're still alive and they're clearly not going to come out then you're going to die and you just have to keep going right exactly so the so the self -preservation of course makes sense because it's like don't everyone shouldn't just sit there and die together but right that doesn't keep the the surviving person from being like judged and you know like talked about or whatever so he's starting to realize oh no i have to now i have to talk about this so he gets to the bottom he gets to the tents richard's there waiting for him um richard asks where joe is and simon tells him everything he just tells him exactly what happened the complete truth and he tells him that's joe is dead to his surprise richard does not judge him for it doesn't say anything bad is like that's so horrible um is it's kind of best case scenario for the first person that is hearing this horrible news for Simon.

[963] Also, quick reminder, Simon's 22 years old.

[964] Jesus.

[965] Horrifying.

[966] So, okay, back inside the crevasse.

[967] So after repelling on one leg for a really long time, basically down an ice shoot, Joe reaches a part of the crevasse that opens up into a sort of dome -shaped cavern.

[968] So at the bottom of that cavern, he's relieved to.

[969] finally see a snow -covered floor, he gets himself down onto the solid ground for the first time since his fall.

[970] And then once he's there, he sees a small slope upward that has sunlight shining on it.

[971] And he realizes there's a way out of this spot that he's in.

[972] Joe crawls toward the sloped exit on his stomach.

[973] But as he does, he hears a cracking sound underneath him and he realizes he is not on solid ground he's on a cracking sheet of ice and he has to if he doesn't get to that upward slope quickly the ice beneath him could break and he could fall into further down at provas or you know fall to his death yeah he scrambles and just makes it up onto that slope scrambles think of the leg think of where the leg and knee are positioned so once he's on that he starts climbing upwards he's sliding on his stomach while pulling himself forward with his pickaxes but at certain times he's forced to use his legs he just has to yeah um so anytime he pushes off with with his broken tibia leg he's screaming in pain slowly and painfully he makes his way up the slope out through the opening and onto solid sunny ground so he somehow makes it out of that crevasse i think that's the second to last time i'm going to say that word okay but now joe's got miles and miles to go to get to base camp but it doesn't take him long to find joe's footprints leading across the glacier he's exhausted he has no food no water and he actually considers just sitting down like because he's sitting down kind of looking around to see oh this is where i go next and then he's like i think i'm just going to stay here because he's just like beat i mean yeah that's what your brain says to you yes after all that after all that or you're just finally like out in the sun you're like it's fine i'll stay here all right but instead he steals himself and begins to make his way across the glacier and down the mountain and he does this by scooting himself across the snow so he can stay off his injured leg just imagine how irritating that is like you're sliding on your ass basically trying to hold up your broken leg oh my god so it's not like dragging and hitting the ground is such a fucking nightmare Okay.

[974] So Simon stays at the base camp for the next three days.

[975] He's resting.

[976] He's gathering his strength.

[977] And he's basically getting ready to make the trek back out to the road to head home.

[978] Still has to walk a bunch?

[979] Jesus.

[980] It's so much walking.

[981] It's so much walking.

[982] And climbing.

[983] And snow.

[984] And almost dying.

[985] So the night before he's about to leave, he and Richard are asleep in their tents.

[986] And they wake up to the sound of.

[987] someone shouting.

[988] So they get up and they're like, what's this?

[989] Put their hand to the ear cartoonishly.

[990] That's again, I'm lying.

[991] I made that up.

[992] They get up, they listen closer and Simon recognizes the sound of his own name.

[993] He looks into the distance and he sees Joe somehow still alive crawling over the rocks toward him and Richard in their tents.

[994] Oh my God.

[995] It took him three full days in blistering cold conditions and even though he lost Simon's tracks in yet another snowstorm.

[996] Dude.

[997] Joe was somehow able to find his way down the mountain and get his ass back to base camp.

[998] So with no water or food, Joe managed to survive three days on snow only.

[999] Richard, that's not warmly melted snow with a bunsen burner.

[1000] That's just snow in your mouth.

[1001] Richard and Simon left Joe in their tent where they hunker down for the night.

[1002] Joe immediately thanks Simon for trying to help him down the mountain.

[1003] When Simon begins to apologize for cutting the rope, Joe stops him and tells him he did the right thing.

[1004] So now imagine the relief of that.

[1005] Yeah.

[1006] Like thinking you killed your friend and now she's there and going, don't even.

[1007] I mean, just such a relief.

[1008] When Joe's finally rescued and given medical treatment, doctors find that he's lost a third of his body weight.

[1009] holy shit in like a couple days in a couple days with just oh yeah you know men how they burn fat it's so easy for them it's so easy for them all they have to do is almost die in a mouth oh my god he okay so joe undergoes six operations on his leg over the course of two years doctors tell him he'll have trouble walking and they will certainly never climb again but of course he starts doing physical therapy he makes a full recovery and he gets himself back into climbing shape because those guys don't know the word quit as for simon when he gets back to england he's met not with the hero's welcome but with a huge amount of criticism oh because the climbing community is like never leave a partner behind it's an unforgivable sin but joe comes forward and defends simon whenever anybody tries to disparage the decision that he was forced to make.

[1010] Yeah.

[1011] Yes.

[1012] They all would have made it.

[1013] Like, of course, it was an hour of someone hanging there that he thought was dead.

[1014] It's like you can stay there and die too or you can try to get out and get help.

[1015] Right.

[1016] If you, if there's dead weight, if you waited a full hour, it's not like in the snow.

[1017] Immediately where he was like, I can't do this with you, man. It's like he did everything he possibly could and then went, okay, if there's a dead body hanging at the end of the rope, then I have to cut this.

[1018] There's just no choice.

[1019] Right.

[1020] Unfair.

[1021] So in 1988, Joe writes a book about his experience, and it's called Touching the Void.

[1022] And then in 2003, a documentary by the same name is made interspersing reenactments with commentary from Joe Simon and Richard Hawking, the guy who watched everyone's purse.

[1023] The film, I'm sure that guy is like some super, super.

[1024] It's so super climber that it's like, how dear it?

[1025] He's like, fuck you, for sure.

[1026] You couldn't even get to the parking lot of this mountain.

[1027] You're right, Richard.

[1028] The film wins the Alexander Corder Award for Best British Film at the Baffa does that year.

[1029] Oh.

[1030] No one has ever tried to climb this mountain again since Joe and Simon's fateful yet successful, technically successful climb in 1985.

[1031] And that is the unbelievably nail -biting story of the survival of Joe Simpson and Simon Yates in the Peruvian Andes.

[1032] Oh, no one's ever tried to climb it again.

[1033] That tells you everything right there since the 80s.

[1034] It's much in the same way that no, you know, no soccer team has ever tried to crash a plane and then survive for three months.

[1035] Get out of the Andes, everybody.

[1036] No, no, no, no. It's terrible.

[1037] Holy shit.

[1038] Oh man, this lazy boy is so comfortable right now.

[1039] Right.

[1040] Isn't it warm?

[1041] Even more so.

[1042] Yeah, it's warm.

[1043] My heater just kicked on.

[1044] But truly, if you haven't seen the documentary touching the void, this was nothing compared to, these guys telling the story themselves.

[1045] You just have to see them.

[1046] And also, there's really amazing, like, the detail in which when Joe Simpson was basically trying to get back to camp and trying to force himself.

[1047] to keep going.

[1048] There's a really funny part of it where he tells the story about getting this song stuck in his head that was a total, like, early 90s song.

[1049] You have to watch it, but it's really funny.

[1050] Was it chamba?

[1051] It was bony, I want to say bony -meroni.

[1052] You know, who would know is Dave Holmes.

[1053] But you have to see it.

[1054] You have to see it.

[1055] And he basically just, he basically gets a delight style, maddening, almost like, you know, retro disco song.

[1056] stuck in his head as he's trying to climb.

[1057] Which probably helped distract it.

[1058] Like being annoyed is a good fuel.

[1059] Yes, that's right.

[1060] Doing something.

[1061] It's energy.

[1062] It gets you going for sure.

[1063] That was intense.

[1064] Good job.

[1065] Thank you.

[1066] I'm going to cancel all my mountain climbing plans for the near future.

[1067] I just did this because you wouldn't listen to me about the mountain climbing.

[1068] And I'm trying to give you examples of what could happen to you.

[1069] I appreciate it.

[1070] If you keep going to Mount Wilson, the way you insist.

[1071] You know what our fucking array this week should be?

[1072] Jay Elias.

[1073] Getting a writing job?

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] Oh, yes.

[1076] Jay has worked with us on our behalf.

[1077] On our behalf.

[1078] And it's been very hard for him to do all of those things with us for three years.

[1079] I think it's more than that.

[1080] I think so too.

[1081] It felt like the very beginning of exactly right.

[1082] Yes.

[1083] And we would not be where we are today without him.

[1084] He is an incredible person that we are so lucky to know him to have had him work with us.

[1085] And he changed everything with exactly right.

[1086] And we just are so proud of him.

[1087] When I first interviewed him to be an assistant, he was the assistant of three Disney executives.

[1088] And I knew I was like, oh, then you're fine.

[1089] If you can be three executive assistants at one time, then you can come and help us.

[1090] Well, yeah, easy for me to say, because I'm not the one that actually has to do it.

[1091] but Jay went from being my assistant to basically being an executive assistant to running our calendars to then becoming the development coordinator.

[1092] He basically just kept moving up and he did it all.

[1093] He did ads for us.

[1094] He did all kinds of stuff.

[1095] He basically did so many more jobs than his job.

[1096] But all along, he wanted to be a TV writer.

[1097] And he just got his first writing job.

[1098] And so Jay, we will miss you dearly.

[1099] thank you so much for everything you gave us and oh also sorry by the way he just started doing my research because he wanted to be a writer and he's like it'll be good practice for me right so and i've mentioned it many many times when i've done my stories but he was also my researcher he really did it all yeah and every single person i'd exactly right is like near and dear to our heart and j what a beautiful person we're so lucky to know you and have you on our team and god he's off to make history and we're so proud of him yeah it's very exciting And it's really cool to see someone get something like that because it's a hard thing to achieve in this town to get a writing job.

[1100] So it's very cool.

[1101] And he gets to do it now.

[1102] And now we have to look after our own calendar.

[1103] So onward, Jay, and thank you so much for your loyalty and kindness.

[1104] And I mean, the whole stressful thing with a beautiful smile.

[1105] Yeah, he was a true pro.

[1106] And thank you all for being true professional podcast listeners.

[1107] You're good at it.

[1108] Here's what I like about the way you do it.

[1109] You just keep, it's like once one's over, you'll listen to the next one.

[1110] You don't give a shit.

[1111] No, professionals.

[1112] You'll binge or you'll listen week by week.

[1113] But either way, you're here doing it.

[1114] Here and there.

[1115] That's right.

[1116] You're reviewing.

[1117] You're rating.

[1118] You're subscribing.

[1119] You're downloading.

[1120] You're being a part of the conversation.

[1121] We love it.

[1122] Yeah, we love it.

[1123] We couldn't do it without you.

[1124] Thank you.

[1125] And stay sexy.

[1126] and don't get murdered.

[1127] Goodbye.

[1128] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1129] This has been an exactly right production.

[1130] Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1131] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1132] This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris.

[1133] Our researchers are Jay Elias and Haley Gray.

[1134] Email your hometowns and fucking hoorays to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[1135] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[1136] Listen, follow, and leave us a review on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1137] And don't forget, you can listen to new episodes one week early on Amazon Music or early and ad -free by subscribing to Wondry Plus in the Wondry app.

[1138] Goodbye.