#524 - Rickson Gracie & Eddie Bravo

[0] Joe Rogan podcast, checking out.

[1] The Joe Rogan Experience.

[2] Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[3] All right, we're live.

[4] First of all, thank you very much for doing this.

[5] I appreciate it.

[6] Out of all the people online, whenever things get brought up for mixed martial arts guests or jujitsu guests, it's always get Hicks and Gracie on the podcast.

[7] So the clouds have parted, the stars have aligned, and you're here, and we appreciate it very much.

[8] thankful too Joe and Eddie to be with you guys here and have this conversation.

[9] It's funny because last time we talked in my house a while ago, of course you make me some questions, you're curious, you're all about knowing what is what has in my mind.

[10] And at this point I was the talker and, you know, in the past, and the time goes by.

[11] And today I can see after all this process of evolutionary process in the MMA and the martial arts world I mean since then I've been watching you doing your job commenting fights analyzing other fighters and today I can see man you are red belt in the whole extension of the world you know everything you I mean if I have a question I have to call you and ask you what's up because I'm very very I mean impressed with your career with your charisma with the way you position your opinions and it's all very precise so i'm very happy to be here and discuss some talks and talk with you thank you brother that that's an honor to me and it was an honor for me to hang out with you that night it was really cool for uh we had dinner with your family and then we watched some fights and it was really interesting watching fights with you and watching you break down positions and break down the mistakes that people were making and i've told a lot of people about that man i'll tell a lot of people about that night But that documentary choke, that is one document that I've told people.

[12] If you're really interested in Jiu -Jitsu, you really want to find out, you know, what the spirit of Jiu -Soo is all about, watch the documentary choke.

[13] That documentary is so inspirational.

[14] They followed you.

[15] Was it in 94, 95?

[16] Yeah, 95 going to 96, yes.

[17] 95 going into 96, and you were fighting in Japan in the Japan Valley Tudu, and it documented a lot of your training and documented your philosophy.

[18] And, man, whenever I, if ever I need some motivation, you know, and I'll slap that DVD on and you just get fired up.

[19] You want to go do some yoga on the beach or something.

[20] Yeah, that was fun.

[21] How did that come about?

[22] What?

[23] That documentary.

[24] Well, it was a project with a student of mine who was working with the polygram and also the comp.

[25] So we decided to follow up to the event.

[26] And so they have a crew following a couple of fighters and follow myself to see what's going to.

[27] happen at the event so it was a nice introduction to a preparation to the mindset of a fighter either myself or the Todd Haynes what's another and also the Japanese guy was also involved in the filming so it was a cool primal experience to to a MMA fight like a Valitude fight well it's very eye -opening for a lot of fighters who looked at mixed martial arts a lot of them come from a wrestling background and they looked at mixed martial arts more of like as a sport just be tough you know you got to get up you got to train hard you got to run hard you got to live hard and your philosophy was much more like a samurai your philosophy was much deeper much more meditation based and we got to see you doing yoga you you i think you opened up a lot of people's eyes to uh different mindset involved in preparation but also to yoga that was the first time i had ever seen a martial artist that was really into yoga.

[28] Yes, I think for the athlete in general, the breathing, understanding of the breathing is a big plus because stretch your, I mean, by hyperventilate you, stretch your physical potential, by know how to breathe properly, you relax, you can bring your hard beats lower.

[29] There's a lot of elements in the breathing who are involved with controlling emotions, getting more energy and so on.

[30] So as I get exposed to breathing properly, I get addicted and I felt like was a huge element of, you know, in addition to the techniques, in addition to the heart and to the heart training, learning the breathing is a huge beneficial thing for the athlete.

[31] Now you see athletes like tennis players, they play in breathing.

[32] And the breathing, the breath is much more should they sport today.

[33] So it's a process of knowing.

[34] Now, I see Crohn, my son, he's, I mean, before he's just like, see, oh, dad, I see you training and breathe.

[35] But now he's coming to me and said, Dad, just make all the difference in the world when I really, you know, start to getting tired to make hyperventilation and keep my mind like sharp, because sometimes if you get tired, it's not enough oxygen in the blood to feel your sharpness in your mind.

[36] So you become a little stupid a little slower you know so by having a good knowing how to hyperventilate you able to to maximize this this oxygen so even though the acylactic take over your body your mind is still sharp and you're still responding accordingly so it's a great thing to do and you were born into the greatest jiu -jitsu family the greatest martial arts family of all time I mean there's no doubt about it there's no there's not even a second place there's the gracey family and then there's you know there's a guess you could have a debate about who comes in second, but it's kind of ridiculous.

[37] That is the number one martial arts family of all time.

[38] And you obviously learned jiu -jitsu from a very early age, but how did you get involved into the yoga?

[39] Oh, I'm very happy to be related with this master called Orlando Cani, which was the precursor of the Ginaska Natural.

[40] I was learning in the same time, Alvar Romano, who is the guy who is now making the tapes originally, we're learning together, you know, and at that point, I was just practicing with him, like, hello my father.

[41] He's a older guy who's a very tough athlete and also a yoga teacher.

[42] So he combined, he developed some kind of style of yoga, which is not exactly a posture, like postures and breathing to relax or to achieve meditation.

[43] was more like an active breeding for athletes.

[44] And in order for you to jump higher, you have to know how to have harmony between your jump and your breathing.

[45] You want to keep more strength for a more long time.

[46] You have to know how to breathe accordingly to promote that.

[47] So he has always in the active breathing.

[48] And then we kind of, we started doing privates, and I was in his place for, you know, for a couple of months.

[49] he's guiding me through the moves in front of a mirror in a nice room.

[50] One day, we about to start the class, and soon he was about to start, he was calling the phone, and he said to me, Hickson, you keep going, and I'll be right back.

[51] So for the first time, I was able to breathe, make my routine without follow him up, without having my mind focus on what he was doing.

[52] So I start to breathe and move and breathe and move.

[53] And then has some woods on the walls, we kind of imitate monkeys to climb the wood and stuff.

[54] So in one point, I come back to reality.

[55] And then I was on top of the highest frame in the wall, sweating like a pig.

[56] And then I look around and start to come back to reality.

[57] And I saw him on the corner, crying.

[58] And then I said, what's up, man?

[59] What's going on?

[60] He said, man, you don't have to learn anything else from me. You achieve the highest level of get empty mind.

[61] And then I kind of said, why say that?

[62] I said, yeah, because you're here for an hour, 15 minutes, and completely off.

[63] I mean, you didn't notice anything.

[64] Because he was applying the development of the animal instinct, which takes your brain off, your mind, your concentration and keep you more like an instinctive animal.

[65] And that was the vision.

[66] And through this, because before that, I was doing transcendental meditation.

[67] I did traditional yoga.

[68] And those never did great for me. In the meditation, I was sleeping.

[69] By doing that kind of routine, I was able to not just breathing properly, but also achieve empty mind.

[70] and I was like in a state a meditation state for a long time not concentrating in anything like rational oh he's there or he's so I was able to get achieve like a empty mind and after I noticed that I start to practice my routines to get that same feeling of emptiness and that kind of meditation works for me as no other one and I felt like being an empty mind increases my, I don't know, my intuition, increases my sense of energy.

[71] So it was incredible for me because I could get in touch more comfortably with my, I mean, my third vision.

[72] I don't know exactly explained, but I could achieve a completely peace of mind in that kind of routine.

[73] So I was stick for life.

[74] So you just got into this state and you could just exist, no conscious thought, no thinking about anything around you, no past, no future, just exist in that moment with no context.

[75] Yes, and that's a kind of weird positive feeling because you're capable to be present in a sense which if you have your mindset, if you have something, expectations or you're never there.

[76] So I was able to be very confident, very easily to get into that situation where, you're never there.

[77] Even prior to the fight, I'm able to sleep on the locker room, making my workout, getting a high, very hard beat.

[78] And then, like, five minutes before, I make my praise, I make my meditation, and I kind of cool off my heartbeat to 60 heartbeats a minute.

[79] So I was able to engage very hot and with the hard, very hard, low heart beat.

[80] And as the fight progress, the pace is very hard.

[81] If I'm 60, he's 80.

[82] When I'm 80, he's 100.

[83] When I'm 100, he's 120.

[84] When I'm 120, he's a 45th.

[85] So when he started to have to regroup, I was still having to go forward.

[86] And that point, my opponents always lose a little B, his pay.

[87] So it's a time for me to make the kill, you know.

[88] So it was always working properly for me. The breathing was always working very well.

[89] So this empty mind state enhanced your jiu -jitsu, this ability to achieve this state on top of all the techniques, on top of all the training and the instincts, this took it to the next level.

[90] Yes, because, you know, in one point, if you allowed yourself to be present, you not commit to the offense or to the defense.

[91] You commit to give nothing and take everything.

[92] So you give me opportunity, I will be there.

[93] If you try to be surprised me, I will be there accordingly defending myself.

[94] So it's all on the table.

[95] It's like no surprises because there's no expectations.

[96] So keeping a cool mind, even when it's boiling, is something I felt like was always like something which give me an edge.

[97] Because I was there just to either catch what is there or resolve the problem.

[98] Never disappoint or never late.

[99] No expectations.

[100] I love that.

[101] And it's always late.

[102] I mean, sometimes you get late because you.

[103] playing something in a fight and it doesn't happen.

[104] So you start to be disappointed.

[105] So for me, it was always like, whatever happened, I'm there, I'm happy, comfortable, finding comfortable, finding the sharpness to achieve success, you know, so it's great.

[106] You grew up in this jiu -jitsu family, but you were always, at least from most people's interpretation, you were always the best guy out of the family.

[107] How did that happen?

[108] How did you rise above all the rest?

[109] I mean, you grew up with a bunch of killers.

[110] Yes, everybody's training hard.

[111] Everybody was pushing to the maximum.

[112] And for one point, I feel like I was dedicated.

[113] I'm perfectionist.

[114] I'm competitive in my heart.

[115] But some elements I get was more like a God gift.

[116] It's not exactly something I choose.

[117] So we're training all the same.

[118] Why my brother, I can play with my brother.

[119] and they cannot have a chance with me. So that's kind of hard to explain.

[120] It's not me trying to do this.

[121] This just happened.

[122] It's myself trying to be my best, plus the emotional control, the peace of mind.

[123] It is all, you know, for example, my beloved brother Hoyler, he's a great fighter, but sometimes you get too emotional, you know?

[124] And that sometimes makes him choose the wrong path.

[125] So, Hoyce, he's a, you know, great fighter.

[126] But sometimes he got a little confused.

[127] He's not having the sharp offensive attitude.

[128] So sometimes something sleep, you know, and so on.

[129] So I not exactly know why I'm the one.

[130] I just have to represent and be, you know, happy to be, the one and I tell you man all the opportunities I have to represent I did already so I feel like completely comfortable and in myself saying okay I have nothing to prove to myself I did all and you know I'm very happy with the results so Jiu -jitsu for life to Jiu -jitsu for life indeed your brother that's on on Jamie that's on there we go you're you had a cousin, Holes Gracie, the legendary Holes Gracie.

[131] Actually, Holes is in the DNA.

[132] He's my cousin, but he was living in my house since I born because my uncle, as he divorced from his wife, Hall's mother, he gave, my father was just to get married.

[133] So he gave Hollis to be care to my father and mother.

[134] So he was like your brother?

[135] So he's my older brother because Hordion coming just after and then Helson.

[136] And then when I born like eight years, nine years later, I was the little one living with Holes, Horton and Helson for, you know.

[137] So it's my brother.

[138] There's no way to see him differently.

[139] He was known as a guy who went all over the world, studied Sommbo, studied some catch wrestling and the wrestlers.

[140] And he would bring that back, right?

[141] Yes, yes.

[142] Would you credit holes in bringing leg locks into Brazilian Jiu -Jitsu?

[143] Is he the one?

[144] Yes, I mean, the leg locks specifically was not something I kind of get the major information from halls.

[145] It was funny.

[146] One day, Eric Paulson was a good student and a very good friend.

[147] He brought a tape for me from Japan with...

[148] with Shoto.

[149] Shoto wrestling and I saw the knee locks in the Shoto wrestling, you know, some guys fighting and I saw it and I kind of interesting.

[150] And then next day I start to apply it.

[151] And then it was funny because he commented to me afterwards at Hickson.

[152] You mean, I give you the tape one day, next day we're submitting everybody on the knee locks.

[153] Oh really?

[154] Yeah, it was fun.

[155] So you would say you learn more leg locks from Eric Paulson's tape than holes?

[156] Yeah, I mean, Halls was not specifically a lead lock guy, you know?

[157] There's a picture of him with a sombo shirt on.

[158] Yeah, yeah.

[159] People go, look, look, he studied.

[160] He was a master of sombo.

[161] No, no. We go in Sambo as we go in any other, we go representing jujitsu against Sambo.

[162] You know, and in the Pan American games we went in San Diego was like a very interesting because the fighters, they don't expect.

[163] so much submissions and we start immediately because tough wrestlers, tough judo players so we start immediately bringing the fight to the ground and go for footlocks and knee locks and immediately I mean in the first qualification phase they start to tapping a lot and then the referees start to become kind of little skeptical about that they start to become more so once halls grab them and then foot lock especially in the final mat in his way division he got the guy on the footlock the referee stopped the fight and said no you cannot get the foot lock on the joint you have to get on like on the shin and then it's kind of confusing you know and cutting the that's why Halls lost the finals in this event and this was in the 70s was I think 80s 81 or 80 so they just they were trying to cut him out but yeah the referees started to getting upset because like was funny we supposed to come in with a team from Brazil of 12 guys and we expecting like a support from the government and then the government at a very last time very last moment didn't didn't give to us so my father paid to us to come so just me Carlos Gracie Jr. and Halls so we come in to compete in this event and how old were you at this time you must have been like 18 or something yes 19 something like that and then we coming and I was in the my way division which is one above halls and halls was below me and Carlos was on top of me so we kind of having one in each division and as the competition progress the referees start to see those three guys from Brazil just submitting everybody because in Sambo chokes are not allowed no head locks no color chokes is only knee locks foot locks or straight arm bars cannot even do the Americanas because it goes in the shoe.

[164] So we just go and trying to do footlocks because those are the easiest way.

[165] So we start to finish the guys and they start to say, oh, this guy's coming and do footload.

[166] And everybody may complain.

[167] I don't know if they...

[168] But it's Samba, though.

[169] Isn't that what they...

[170] Yeah, that's what they do is footlocks.

[171] It's now.

[172] Now.

[173] Back then there wasn't foot locks.

[174] Yeah, it's so interesting how...

[175] Wait a minute.

[176] That's changed.

[177] No, it was legal, but was not used, especially in the Sambu and American concepts.

[178] Russia, maybe.

[179] Yeah.

[180] You know it.

[181] But American Sambor Combo focused on what mostly?

[182] They are more like to control the rules are if you pin the guy for 30 seconds, it was like wrestling, not as long as, but you still win like judo.

[183] And as you attempt the pin every time the guy passes the back on the ground, you're still making points.

[184] So in my final match, I guess the guy from the Air Force, very strong guy with maybe wrestling and judo background.

[185] And he was whipping my ass, man. And he's just like, in the first, like three rounds, three minutes.

[186] In the first round, he stay on top all the time.

[187] And because being in the guard, you're losing points.

[188] The score is about 12 or 14 points in the first round.

[189] And the second round is about 18 or 20.

[190] I tell you, in the very final round, I was about 26 or something points against zero.

[191] You know, and I was just trying to do my thing.

[192] and in one, like, maybe a minute before the very final round, I swept him and mounted.

[193] And he, in the same time I mounted, he tried to push me away, and I get like a moving arm lock, and he not even tap.

[194] He's just yell, ah, so, and then I win the fight, like, in a very final second.

[195] And you were down 20 -something.

[196] Yes, I was like, points are not even chance.

[197] I'm not there to winning by points.

[198] I was there just to see if I can submit.

[199] It's fascinating.

[200] And then the guy tapped like 15 seconds before the fight is end.

[201] And then like the whole crowd was and then everything kind of hoo -hoo.

[202] And then just few guys, Hey!

[203] It was pretty fun.

[204] So when Eric Paulson showed you these tapes of Shuto in the 90s probably, you were already doing leg locks a little bit, right?

[205] Not really.

[206] I very like footlocks.

[207] I always love.

[208] The straight foot lock.

[209] Yes, straight foot lock.

[210] And then what Eric Paulson showed you was like fancy knee bars and stuff.

[211] Yes, because.

[212] From the guard, you just spin around and go with the straight knee lock.

[213] So I get amazed by this kind.

[214] And I start to develop, you know, very quickly.

[215] It was just adapt to my game and was an addition to the arsenal.

[216] You know, it was great.

[217] It's funny when you look back at old Eric Paulson fights from Japan.

[218] You look at the stuff he was doing him.

[219] And people today still aren't even doing that.

[220] He's way ahead of the game, too.

[221] Eric Paulson was an encyclopedia of submissions.

[222] Him and Matt Hume.

[223] Like those guys back.

[224] then it looked like like advanced jiu -jitsu and of course you know anytime you got them out there was always an arm bar you know but but you know that time eric was being training very consistently for us he's a good a good brother and a training partner who has always been a great warrior and i have a lot of respect for him great guy very very knowledgeable guy isn't it fascinating that we've seen just in the time that i started training from 96 on this adoption of leg locks in Jiu -Jitsu.

[225] In the early, in the 90s, it used to be that leg locks were frowned upon.

[226] When someone went for leg locks, people get really upset.

[227] Hickson, were you at the first Pan -American games in 1996, or 97 here in El Sago in L .A. You must have been there, right?

[228] Do you remember that?

[229] There was the first Pan -Americans.

[230] There was, like, 500 Brazilians.

[231] They shipped them all.

[232] It was an invasion.

[233] It was an invasion of Brazilians.

[234] And there was the crazy thing is, I was a blue belt in Jiu -Zitsu, and I was, you know, I saw a Ken Shamrock tape of a toehold.

[235] So I was a blue belt doing toeholds at John Jack Machado's Academy, and I competed in the tournament, and so did Eric Paulson.

[236] And when I went for a toll hold in this tournament, all the Brazilians started throwing, there was almost a riot that called the cops.

[237] They were throwing shoes at me. And Johnny Machado, I'll never forget him running and slow moj sliding.

[238] And I had the toehold, and Johnny goes, you got to let it go.

[239] You got to let the toehold, and I'm looking around, so I let it go.

[240] people are throwing shoes at me and water bottles and stuff it was like a big deal and i ended up losing i let it go and afterwards eric paulson's in the parking lot it was just me and him he was a blue belt as well and he was like he was like he was like the same age but he was like i was like a little kid he was like you know let me talk to you kid and goes let me show you a couple leg locks so he showed me a couple things like this weirdest leg lock that doesn't work and he admits it now that it was garbage but he showed me this leg lock he showed me this leg lock where you go like this is weird thing in the parking lot and i'll never forget that i was like man this guy's the only guy who understands that i like to hold and and um he was on my podcast not too long ago and he said and i asked him about that movie go do you remember that movie goes oh yeah it's it's garbage it's trash it doesn't work again it it raised that one yeah forget about that isn't it fascinating though how these these ideas they get innovated and within our lifetime they start to get implemented and they get weeded out the ones that work wind up staying the ones that don't work fall by the wayside what do you think about the IBJF banning heel hooks.

[241] You think that's a good thing?

[242] I like to, first, of course, it's a pleasure to talk about all this.

[243] And I can answer that because I feel like the heel hooks has to be implemented in the top level of fighters.

[244] Because it's a solid technique.

[245] But because it's designed to stretch the ligaments, not the joint, It's a different between you going in your finger.

[246] This way, you're going to feel pain before it breaks.

[247] But if you go this way, you're going to resist until pops.

[248] So it's just ligaments.

[249] It's not a joint.

[250] This is a joint.

[251] This is a ligament.

[252] So when you twist the knee, the guy can still resist.

[253] And when he feels, he's going to feel the pop.

[254] He's not going to feel the pain to tap.

[255] So this is, in a way, If you don't have the experience, you're going to bust your knee, so we don't want to see guys with busted knees just because they tough or just because they don't know.

[256] So we forbid in a whole the heel hooks.

[257] But in an advanced level, like Metamorres or like premium pros, Abu Dhabi...

[258] I think they should bring back in.

[259] Because this is part of the game, and you have to be responsible to let it broke, And especially a guy like Toquino.

[260] When you see Paul Harres, he's such a master at it.

[261] It's exciting to watch that guy fight to see how guys are going to deal with that.

[262] Well, Abu Dhabi still allows heel hooks, right?

[263] I believe so.

[264] In my experience, I've been teaching now 10 years, and we've, I allow heel hooks from day one only because I, as an instructor, I don't want some leg lock guy coming into my school and tapping everybody out with leg locks.

[265] So I wanted all my guys to be very well -versed in leg locks.

[266] And in my experience, we reap, we heel -hook, white belts.

[267] I can't even tell you the last time someone got hurt from a heel -hook.

[268] I can't even know.

[269] Maybe once in 10 years.

[270] Yeah, I think that's kind of education.

[271] That's kind of positive because give the guy the sense, if he feels the problem, it has to tap in advance.

[272] He cannot allow it to the pop happen because you're going to bust your knee.

[273] And in Naga and Grappler's Quest, they allow heel hooks, and you rarely ever hear about anybody getting hurt.

[274] I think once you learn how to defend it, it's actually, people don't want to, people will tap generally.

[275] And some people that don't tap, like Gary Tonin was talking about, the first time as someone got him in a heel hook and his knee popped a few times.

[276] He thought, well, if I tap now, it already popped.

[277] Why should I tap?

[278] I should just keep going now.

[279] And if someone, I think if someone's going to let their knee pop or get hurt, I think it's their responsibility to tap.

[280] And if it pops, is it really a big deal?

[281] I mean, it's part of the game.

[282] People get hurt.

[283] People get their knees blown out in basketball way more than jujitsu.

[284] Again.

[285] Soccer.

[286] Yeah.

[287] Again, in 10 years, I can't even tell you that maybe leg compressions.

[288] A couple times guys have had their knees pop from leg compressions and even lockdown.

[289] I've had a couple guys get their knee popped.

[290] But heel hooks and reaping, that's not something that I ever had to say, we got to slow down, be careful with the knee reefs.

[291] Just no one really gets hurt.

[292] But it seems to be a technique that when people were ignorant of it, that's when people are really getting hurt more.

[293] Yeah.

[294] Yeah, well, sometimes when they really want to go for the hurt, they don't visualize the possibilities to hurt.

[295] So they go and go full power from the beginning to the end.

[296] So it's not even a chance to the guy tap.

[297] He's already tapping late.

[298] So that's more like the mindset.

[299] of the guy who's attacking, if he wants to break your knee, it's a great chance to do that in a hill hood.

[300] And when we were adding wrestling to our jiu -jitsu classes, trying to combine it, now we separate wrestling classes and separate jiu -jitsu class.

[301] But at a time when I was trying to combine it together, we would have a day where we just do wrestling and we do live wrestling drills and we're all standing up.

[302] That's where everyone got hurt.

[303] And they got to a point where...

[304] Because people collided with each other?

[305] Just trying to take someone down and tackling them and they plant on their leg wrong.

[306] Einstein broke his leg wrestling.

[307] His leg broke because he planted on it wrong.

[308] He got picked up.

[309] So there came a point where I decided, you know what, too many guys are getting hurt on wrestling day.

[310] So I cut wrestling out.

[311] And, you know, if you want to wrestle, you go to the wrestling class.

[312] In my class, it's just jiu -jitsu.

[313] But we do allow reaping.

[314] We do allow heel hooks.

[315] And there's no one getting hurt from that.

[316] More from the wrestling.

[317] This is a famous match where you had with Mark Schultz.

[318] What happened in that?

[319] Because that's a very famous encounter.

[320] And there's a movie coming out called Foxcatcher that's based on, do you know the story behind this movie?

[321] What was the guy's name that was responsible, Foxcatcher?

[322] It was based on, there was the two brothers, the Mark Schultz and David Schultz.

[323] Dave Schultz got killed.

[324] And it's based on this guy, John DuPont, who is this crazy rich guy, who was taking these wrestlers and he was, I don't know, it was some weird gay shit.

[325] There was something weird about him.

[326] He'd pay for private.

[327] He would, well, not just that.

[328] He set up a training center and paid them a lot of money and just get real weird with them and wrestle with these guys.

[329] But he was like this old dude.

[330] You know, it wasn't like he was like, you know, a guy was really fit and really into training and learning techniques.

[331] It was just real weird.

[332] And he wound up shooting.

[333] They creep through every now and then.

[334] They did, you could spot and we're like...

[335] Well, he was a billionaire.

[336] I mean, he was super, super, super rich guy.

[337] So this movie is actually about to come out now.

[338] But his brother, Mark Schultz, was fought in the UFC, Olympic gold medalist, fantastic wrestler, like an all -time great wrestler.

[339] And you and he had an encounter.

[340] Yeah, I was in Utah visiting my instructor, Pedro.

[341] Pedro Sauer.

[342] Yes.

[343] And then we are invited to go to the BYU where he was coaching the wrestling team.

[344] there.

[345] And as I get there, you know, looking for training stuff, and eventually he said, okay, let's train a little bit.

[346] And then immediately we engage.

[347] Immediately he went to my guard and almost immediately he's stepping out.

[348] And then he was not happy at all.

[349] Would you put him in a triangle or an arm lock?

[350] Yeah, triangle first.

[351] From the guard.

[352] Yes.

[353] And then he becomes a little more smart and he can become.

[354] So it was a long second.

[355] on the round and eventually I went to his back and submit him again and after a few sessions I make him tap some and and he was very impressed like well nobody did this with me I mean what's going on I mean he was stronger than me I mean of course a warrior and he was not happy I mean somebody said once you show me a good loser and I show you a loser so he was not happy at all and of course I understood that and but eventually he he's settled and he understood was a technique involved and he started to become training with Pedro and become passionate about Jiu Jitsu he training a lot and he become like a supporter of the Jujitsu cause in Utah and and you know it was a great experience because I can felt like the whole level of training and in body control he has, but still like at that point, the wrestlers has no clue what is, you know, submission.

[356] So what's kind of, you know, a surprising thing for them, which doesn't happen those days.

[357] Do you remember specifically what moves, holes brought from wrestling and from Samba to?

[358] A good way distribution, a good way is to.

[359] Like, if the guy grabbed you, you were able to make the movement to go to his back, like a good turnovers, a good, excellent sense of no -gui -based control, good grips, to...

[360] Arm drags and stuff like that.

[361] Yeah, things like very, you know, he was training a lot with Bob...

[362] Bob Anderson, yes.

[363] So he was a good friend of Bob Anderson, and Bob Anderson went to Brazil.

[364] So it was like a...

[365] He was the one who brought the wrestling ideas and concepts because he pushed us once to compete in Olympic wrestling.

[366] So, Hall was always for me a reference.

[367] You know, as I growing up, he was the champion.

[368] And he was just an unbelievable guy with a good heart and passion for jiu -jitsu, love to represent.

[369] And he was my idol, you know, as I growing up.

[370] And I tried to follow his footsteps.

[371] As I growing up, we all train hard among each other, with others.

[372] So my goal was beat holes.

[373] You know, my goal was be better than him.

[374] And let's suppose our last 30 trainings, maybe he beat me like in the first two or three.

[375] And then we spent maybe 20 trainings or maybe 25 trainings.

[376] Even up, like back and forth, I start to get more and more into his.

[377] game and what this strategy to catch me and I start to become a more comfortable in the surviving and then in one point I start to getting the advantage in the training because no luck either you better or not so inconsistently I start to become more comfortable and then eventually I start to getting the advantage in some positions and then in one day and the in the range of my father like in a weekend we all get together has a huge match so I was training with him and I submit him first time, you know.

[378] What did you get him with?

[379] Oh, man, it was like a, you know.

[380] Guy or no, Guy?

[381] Guy.

[382] So I not even remember, I think it was some kind of choke or something.

[383] But what I remember, it was the feeling I felt, by achieving my goal, I was making him feel like he was.

[384] losing his position and I felt the same way I felt happy I felt sad because was not his anymore is myself my responsibility now and we know that and nobody knew I mean nobody knew I mean of course people saw the training but at that point I felt like I was there still to support him but I was better than him and we still competing in the event events coming and we always close the bracket because he goes in his way division I go in mine and we go together in the open division so we always close the open you know and I never will fight I mean up to that day he always been the first and I'm the second the medal is his even though I knew I could maybe change this you know I never ever will if he's still alive he will be the number one and I'm number two based on respect based on in Yeraki.

[385] So once he passed away, I have to take over, you know, and represent fully.

[386] But, I mean, he's my inspiration, and he's a great guy, and I miss him dearly.

[387] He died in a tragic hang gliding accident.

[388] How old were you at that time?

[389] Oh, I was maybe 20, 22, something like that.

[390] So he was there when you fought Zulu?

[391] Yes, he was there.

[392] He was my coach.

[393] He was in my corner with my dad.

[394] For people out there that don't know what I'm talking about, the Zulu match that you had was one of the, that's like watching an old Ali match.

[395] Can you put that up, Jamie?

[396] Actually, Hickson versus Zulu.

[397] Yes.

[398] I really, you know, this conversation goes very well.

[399] And I mean, I really appreciate you talking about the past, but I like to make a little pause on this and really bring up the most.

[400] because we have to live today, we have to be motivated, and I'm very happy today to come here, to explain and talk about this new venture I'm involved with, which is the new JJGF, Jiu -Jitsu Global Federation.

[401] Because talking about Jiu -Jitsu, talking about rules, talking about the future of Jiu -Zitsu, I think we're having a huge problem to be resolved, you know and that is crucial for the future I see like this new organization we'll bring to the table the elements to resolve our problem you know I think our biggest problem today in the Jujitsu community is losing effectiveness we've been losing effectiveness drastically from the last 15 years because the way in order for us to restore effectiveness I felt very appealing to me to engage in this venture which through this federation we're going to try to resolve three important I mean we have three pillars of of action to try to resolve that problem Jiu Jiujitsu has and effectiveness in what, in MMA?

[402] Effectiveness.

[403] And like a fight?

[404] No, no, effectiveness.

[405] I'm going to explain to you because it's different.

[406] Efficiency and effectiveness.

[407] Today, I see the top camp champions very efficient on getting medals.

[408] But they're losing effectiveness in real life.

[409] And if you see Jiu -Jitsu as I grow up, the core of Jiu -Jitsu was self -defense.

[410] is preparing the student to handle situations.

[411] Today, the evolutionary process of Jiu -Jitsu brought the sport of Jiu -Jitsu and those rules, diminishing that effectiveness in the search for the medal.

[412] So, and like, nothing can be boring for me, more boring than watch some fights in Jiu -Jitsu tournaments those days.

[413] I believe it.

[414] I mean, they can choose between stepping the break or stepping on the gas they can choose because the rules favor if you are strategically correct you may go in the fight to fight a situation where you can control the pace of the fight, you can manage in the whole tank and eventually by one or two moves you get advantage and win the medal so great you have the medal but sometimes that shows a lack of desire to compete a lack of desire to engage in a fair fight.

[415] A lot of times I see a white belt or a blue belt or a purple belt fight which is much more appealing, has much more open situations of changing positions than a black belt who sometimes sit on the floor and is stuck like in a position who holds stalling the whole action.

[416] So by doing that, he's efficient on get the medal, but he's losing effectiveness to handle real life that's why it's hard to see a jiu -jitsu representative on the cage who translates that I mean I see jiu -jitsu translate today something I feel like I never will fight like that the guy is jiu -jitsu practitioner for life he's great his talent he's tough he's sometimes a champion but he don't fight the way I believe is supposed to be fighting there you know he has no idea of clinching.

[417] He has no idea of sidekick.

[418] He has no idea of a valetudo guard.

[419] They have a sportive guard all the time trying to do homoplatas, you know, instead, and the guy on top just hamming them down.

[420] So it's kind of weird because without that kind of efficiency, I mean, I'm sorry, effectiveness.

[421] Jujitsu is losing, you know, he's losing the integrity, the whole culture, the whole concepts.

[422] I trust.

[423] I trust.

[424] and I believe all my life.

[425] So if I can clarify, your issue is with points and with advantage points?

[426] Yes, for example.

[427] This new situation will be, this federation is not there to compete with other organizations.

[428] I'm not there to, I'm doing the job was not done yet, you know.

[429] Based on this platform, this state -of -the -arm platform, we try to have three different elements.

[430] to work with the information I think the vision is to perform something a good service my intention with this is to serve the community and the sport community the world -wide jiu -jitsu community and the sport of jiu -jitsu thinking that I have three different elements the first one is the communication aspect the information through the site you we're going to have a listing of all the academies on the planet.

[431] We have a listing of all athletes, profiles, downloads of fights.

[432] So they will have the option to request sponsors, show themselves.

[433] It's like a Google slash Facebook for the community.

[434] And also we're going to have a master's council which brings all the guys who have traditionally sponsored.

[435] their lives in the jiu -jitsu community to have a voice, an active voice for the community.

[436] So in the forums, sometimes somebody makes a question about a position.

[437] So the masters will be involving answers if they want and they will be highlighted because that's his opinion, that's my opinion.

[438] So people, the community, going to start to evaluate what's beneficial and what's negative, what the master has to say.

[439] So creates a network which is much.

[440] must need it to unify the community.

[441] I see the community should they completely split.

[442] You know, some federations have their own circuits, some others.

[443] So it's 30 events one side, another 30 and the other side, and then has, you know, Naga 7, Grapp request, have Dream, have IBJJF.

[444] So all this is completely disorganized and completely split.

[445] So my intention is bring to the community a sense of unification based on this information, who is go for everyone.

[446] Like another important point is have contributors from all over to bringing the reports of what's happening in this event, who is the champion, who is that, and news and everything.

[447] So because some magazines today, they're completely partial.

[448] They just will talk and explain about their athletes.

[449] or in their society, it does not cover the whole community.

[450] So through this information, this solid, efficient, general information, the whole community will be informed, will be connected, will be asking and being listened.

[451] So I think that's very important for the community.

[452] Another big pillar of our federation is the competition aspect.

[453] which by changing rules, we restore effectiveness.

[454] How we do that?

[455] Cutting the advantages, because the advantage for me is like a ball in the ring.

[456] It's just touch the ring.

[457] It doesn't make a point.

[458] How are you going to make a half point?

[459] It's very hard to interpretate what is really real and what is not.

[460] What's almost, I mean, it doesn't matter how many goals you try and hit the post.

[461] the score is what matters you know so a half point just creates a controversy and interpretation for the referee so it becomes a very confused way so back to the reality you just go for clear points and also another important thing is give minus points for stalling positions what is a stalling position is a position where you hold with the intention to preserve the position to preserve the control of the dynamic of the fight.

[462] You're stalling because you want to be in control by using what I call an anti -jiu -jitsu move, which prevents you from keep action because the idea is both engage and see who is the best, who is submit, who is passing, who is mounting, who is getting.

[463] And sometimes people, to minimize that risk, they kind of keep in their, the situation under a control, a position they can control the sleeves, putting the leg, entangled it.

[464] So he's comfortable to proceed until the point he needs to make a little advantage.

[465] So this diminished the effectiveness because this kind of strategy doesn't work in real life.

[466] So they'll be punished for that.

[467] Yes.

[468] And he grabbing the collar.

[469] So they grab, in the referee coming and say, hey, man, watch your grip.

[470] After 20 seconds, he already got a minus point.

[471] After then they're going to get minus again.

[472] And then eventually he's going to be the kill.

[473] Is it subject to interpretation whether a guy is stalling or if they're canceling each other out?

[474] I'm sorry?

[475] Is it subject to interpretation whether it's stalling or whether or not they're canceling each other out?

[476] One guy's trying to advance, the other guy's stopping them for advance.

[477] They're just both looking for the opening.

[478] Yeah, but you can see easily who wants to progress and who is wants to just control the position.

[479] For this guy who don't want to progress, he will be, I mean, you can know it.

[480] In theory, maybe is, but if you see it, you can see who is just trying to minimize the action and try to wait for their opportunity and the other one who's tried to make it happen, you know?

[481] What about submission -only tournaments?

[482] Do you like those?

[483] The Federation also have this kind of rule.

[484] We have two sets of rules.

[485] The point rules, system for tournaments, and we have the challenge rules for, can be even tournament, but for matchmaking like the Metamori kind or any promoter who will try to do.

[486] do something like the badest purple belt.

[487] So it's no weight division, is no time limit.

[488] He can approach the time as he wish.

[489] Like, okay, we'll be 20 minutes match.

[490] We'll be 15 minutes match.

[491] We'll be half -hour match.

[492] What do you think about Gracie Worlds and Gracie Nationals?

[493] It's all submission only.

[494] And after 15 minutes, if there's no submission, they're both disqualified.

[495] Yeah, I disagree with that disqualification.

[496] I spoke with Rose.

[497] and she maybe, I mean, we're going to get into the better for the jiu -jitsu, but for me, it's the same roles in case of a bracket.

[498] So I don't feel like both who kind of didn't submit supposed should be disqualified because sometimes in the same bracket, two tough guys, they fight each other, and they could not submit to each other.

[499] And then some two, I mean, halfway.

[500] Busters.

[501] They one submit the other, so this guy advances, and those two are disqualified.

[502] So I don't think this is fair.

[503] Somebody has to come in from this.

[504] So the way I did is the first round goes full force, and if the 20 minutes end or 30 minutes end, depends off the arrangement, after the 30 minutes, you ask the guy, you want to fight?

[505] The guy say yes.

[506] And then you ask the guy, you want to fight?

[507] Yes.

[508] So it's another round.

[509] So in the second round, we still don't have positive points.

[510] But every time the guy put himself in a position and he started to defend himself without attempting to escape or giving the combat, just protecting or resting or whatever, the referee is going to say, hey man, keep going, acting or you're going to be penalized.

[511] So we have negative points for diminishing of combativity.

[512] So at the end of the second round, if we see like somebody with minus points, this one will be the loser, you know, because he displayed less desire or less gas or less techniques to be on top of the competition.

[513] So he's minus because he's defending all the time.

[514] He was tired or whatever, so he gets minus points and then the other guy advances for the bracket.

[515] So that's the only change for the submission.

[516] Are you familiar with my, I have a submission only tournament as well.

[517] I don't know if you're aware of that.

[518] And it's very similar to Gracie World's, Gracie Nationals, but both, it's 15 -minute matches, but both competitors aren't disqualified.

[519] I actually have an overtime round.

[520] And in the overtime, it's kind of like soccer.

[521] I didn't want overtimes to be determined by wrestling in a lot of tournaments.

[522] It's like you go into overtime and whoever's that.

[523] the best wrestler wins because you get the takedown and then they hold and then they win.

[524] So a lot of wrestlers can go into tournaments and go, I'm just going to stall for regulation, take it into overtime and win with my wrestling.

[525] So in order to eliminate that, I wanted to know who the best submission artist is, not who the best wrestler is.

[526] So my overtime, each person, like if we went into overtime, you get to start on my back with the leg hooks and an over -under, and then we go.

[527] If you submit me, then I get to go on your back, and if you escape, you win.

[528] But if I submit you, then we go another round.

[529] It's just, it's like extra innings.

[530] And then the next round, you take my back, I escape, I take your back, and I submit you, I win.

[531] That's in a dreamland, of course, but we, that way, we get to find out who the best is at submitting.

[532] We couldn't finish in regulation.

[533] Now we go into overtime, and we start on each other's backs, like free kicks.

[534] Yeah, but I think this is a valid, but you take the element of conquer the position.

[535] I think the fight has to be even standing up if the wrestlers start to avoiding or if any avoiding of combativity supposed to be penalized but you could fake that though like a wrestler could fake it like take shots one thing is for sure in this new federation and the same way we have the master council we're going to have the development council and you're going to be invited right now to be part because I see people like you guys are not just know the deal know the sport but also has opinion to make and my idea is not ride my rules in stone my idea is to follow the best pattern to create more effectiveness and more dynamic aspect for the sport so the federation has this open heart and open eye and open ears to kind of make the best conclusions for the sport so all the rules can be changed everything can be adapted to a better, more defined display of effectiveness.

[536] That's a beautiful thing.

[537] When will this go into effect and when will your first event?

[538] No, no. I'm not playing only in events.

[539] My idea is to service.

[540] So I'm going to service through the information.

[541] I'm going to service to giving reference and giving guidance for the events.

[542] But even though they don't do my rules, I will legitimize.

[543] everybody and I will start to relate the records of every event who won here who won there and I start to putting everybody to become part of the same profile, the same mindset and I will hammer the idea of why we don't do the best rules for jiu -jitsu because I bet the champions today many of them they're going to say I don't like I prefer to this or that but I'm not here to educate those champions I'm here to educate 85 % of the competitive community today who is still white and blue belt.

[544] Those guys, they're being misled to understand the strategy of the game to get the medals, but they're losing effectiveness in real life.

[545] So the change of rules, aside of the education aspect of the Federation, is very important.

[546] How I see the service of the Federation and the educational level.

[547] Because a lot of times guys coming from the competitive background and they, from white to purple to brown and black, so they become tough competitors, sometimes champions, they become famous, then they open the school.

[548] And as they open the school, they teach what they know.

[549] Their techniques will make them few champions, so great.

[550] But this is just like a percentage of what he's supposed to know to teach.

[551] because not everybody wants to go there to compete not everybody has the skills and the toughness to engage in that kind of level of training I feel like jiu -jitsu is there to favor the community as a whole I feel like the structure he has to be knowledgeable about self -defense about self -defense for women about programs for kids kids class and law enforcement So as the instructor becomes certified, I mean, I'm not, I'm going to validate all the, all the, the, the, the, the instructors, all the black belts today.

[552] I'm not going to say you don't deserve it.

[553] But I will suggest to them to get certified through the federation, because they will get elements for their schools become more efficient, retain more students, had a better teaching programs, which are the, core of effectiveness.

[554] The other day I heard some black belts being asked for a student about self -defense.

[555] Hey, teacher, you teach a...

[556] He said, no, no, if you want a self -defense, you go to Gravemaga, you know?

[557] And I felt that this is just something who goes straight on my heart because for me, the core of Jujitsu is self -defense.

[558] If you don't know self -defense, basically you don't know Jiu -Jitsu.

[559] You have to be ready to defend yourself from a slapping, from a hug, from a head.

[560] headlock from whatever.

[561] And if you don't have those concepts line up, you become sometimes very tough with tough years, with very good grip, endurance forever.

[562] But you're still counting on your own physicality.

[563] You're still counting.

[564] You cannot teach that for a children or for a women.

[565] So by having the Federation presenting those courses and spreading this all over the world, the teacher will have much more elements to have more students, to feed the then have more knowledge to feed, you know, his students in different levels and make a different job with Jiu Jiu Jitsu, you know?

[566] So this is beautiful.

[567] So your motivation is just to improve Jiu Jitsu.

[568] You just see a bad direction that it's going in competition.

[569] Jiu Jiu Jitsu is losing effectiveness and we have to restore that by informing very well, by understand the competition as a progressive thing to make you better fighter, not to make a better competitor, you know.

[570] If you're a competitor, sometimes a taekwendo guy, he's a great competitor, but has nothing to do with real life.

[571] I mean, you want to be a fighter.

[572] Jiu -jitsu is something you learn to protect your honor, to protect your dignity, to represent, to fight, to make money in the cage.

[573] Whatever your goals are, Jiu -Jitsu is there to support you in a very profound and deep cause, which is effectiveness.

[574] effectiveness.

[575] The transition between jujitsu and jujitsu competition and mixed martial arts is a very tricky transition for a lot of jiu -jitsu fighters.

[576] Yes, especially when they don't have that kind of strong background.

[577] I think if everybody fights like Crohn, we don't have to set up rules because he wants to accelerate.

[578] He wants to be progressive.

[579] You know, he's not wants to win by points.

[580] He wants to go to the kill.

[581] so a guys like him or bouchesh or some other great athletes they go and they choose to fight openly you know to see some other fights they choose strategic elements to just give them more chances just points just points just advantage sometimes 10 minutes fight nothing happens just two advantages that's terrible i mean i don't expect to see this in a fight and nobody's back so by changing rules we increase effectiveness, we create a more dynamic fight, it's more interesting to see, you know.

[582] Nobody wants to see something boring.

[583] And we create, under this concept, the possibility to unify the whole community, not only this particular association or this federation, but everybody in the same part.

[584] And then, without taking anything from nobody, my vision is to create a worldwide circuit of Jiu -Jitsu, which represents the same thing, the ASP for surf or the ATT for tennis, which brings major players, like big sponsors and television for the sport.

[585] So first is unified, try to unify the rules, try to create effective, and try to give a better condition for the teacher, for the school owner, for the independent promoter because I cannot think about, okay, I'm going to start to make my own circus and I don't validate nobody.

[586] It's just me like other people do.

[587] So that's a wrong way to unify and educate the community in our culture for the future.

[588] Crone said publicly that he feels a part of the problem, the stalling problem, is the holding of the sleeves.

[589] Do you think, is there a possible?

[590] That's what I think too.

[591] I totally agree with him.

[592] I think the fact that you have to have your sleeve, you can't have your sleeve type because then your opponent can't grab it.

[593] I think that is so backwards.

[594] I think that it should be illegal to grab the sleeve.

[595] Illegal.

[596] I think it should be illegal.

[597] I think it's possible to be legal.

[598] What is unacceptable is that grip promotes only a cool -off situation.

[599] I can grab anywhere I want if my intention is to progress.

[600] Yeah.

[601] If I start to say, okay, coming to me, coming to Papa, and I stay here waiting to waste your energy, and then when you make a mistake, I sweep you, that's kind of weak in your mindset, weak in your progressiveness, weak in your effectiveness.

[602] But what if he's stuck there?

[603] Like he has a sleeve, and he's stuck because he's trying to pass.

[604] And if he lets go to the sleeve, then you're going to pass.

[605] And you're kind of just stuck there.

[606] And you're like, I can't let go out of the sleeve because...

[607] Let it go, man. Let it go and go for the risk.

[608] Don't you think that caused problems with the ref and the ref's interpretation of what What stalling?

[609] No, whatever is holding, if you're not moving, is stalling.

[610] So you should have the hip movement and the angles and the quick fast on the knees, whatever you do, because if the guy don't make a complete pass, he's still like an arm, it's no advantage.

[611] Yeah.

[612] So it's just keep going, man. So do you think it's less of an issue with no ghee?

[613] Yes, stall is less because in Nogi, you can stall in 50 -50s and different things.

[614] will be easier, but you have much less elements to submit.

[615] I feel like the Nogi is just take maybe 70 % of the submission options.

[616] Still some classic ones, but it's not that many.

[617] So I feel like it's just last options, but it's still the same, exactly the same fight.

[618] When you did the Budo Challenge, we went to see that.

[619] It was a great, great event.

[620] What has changed since your ideas when you put that on to today?

[621] My ideas is the same.

[622] The Kudo Challenge is a great rule for a stream event, for a prime television event.

[623] It's not a sport competition event because aims the submission and only pros competing.

[624] And it's like a premium sensational thing, which has no time for stalling.

[625] It's all pushing forward, so the whole pressure.

[626] I think it's almost that, but in the tournament has to be a little more sportive.

[627] We have to have points.

[628] We have to have a time limit, which is accordingly to the...

[629] the belt and so but it's the idea the concept a progressive concept of going to the submission has to be embraced i mean has to be in the whole mindset for every fighter you know it's not doesn't change that the way you fight has to be focused on the submit the guy to be the best the best one out there when is your first big tournament are you planning on having a big world i i want to have like in october the first event but i already have for example next week and the second and third, the Vulcan Open, they will apply the new rules.

[630] And it's all testing.

[631] We're going to test the rules to see because the idea is a positive, beneficial idea for the sport.

[632] And if we need to adjust a little more and change, like I said, nothing is on the stone yet.

[633] And we're going to allow the thing to have, you know, hearing people and seeing the conclusions because the mission is very positive and the means will be adaptable.

[634] That's a beautiful thing.

[635] Yes, it is a beautiful thing.

[636] I'm very happy.

[637] You've seen Jiu -Jitsu progress from the time you were a boy to what it is today.

[638] I mean, it's got to be an amazing thing.

[639] An amazing thing also to have taken part in those first initial invasion moments when you guys came and you, like, there's so many of the Gracian action videos where, you know, Horian is battling with the karate guys and, you know, you're battling with Judo guys and people that had no idea what Jiu Jitsu was.

[640] I remember very clearly When I saw the first Ultimate Fighting Championship that I saw Was number two They had a videotape that was out And I watched it And I watched Hoist Win And I remember thinking myself Man, I didn't even know That there was anything like this out there I had no idea I had been martial arts my whole life I had no idea that someone could do something like this I was doing karate And man when I watched UFC 2 first Because UFC 1 They didn't have any highlights to show Well they didn't release it Their idea was they were going to release it Release two first, and then they were going to release one for some reason.

[641] No, but UFC 1 was.

[642] They did have pay -per -view for UFC 1.

[643] Yeah, but it wasn't available on VHS.

[644] Yes.

[645] And then so once I heard that UFC 1 was real, my friend said, hey, that, because I saw a preview for it, and I thought, oh, that's fake.

[646] That's like WWF.

[647] That's not real.

[648] So I ignored it.

[649] And then my friend came home one day, my roommate and said, hey, that ultimate challenge thing, it's real.

[650] Some guy, guitar center told me it was real.

[651] He said some Iranian guy was just choking people out.

[652] He would just grab them by the.

[653] the throat he said iranian the big sumo wrestler is put he spit the tooth like in the audience and my friend the guy who told me didn't see it he heard it second hand so he said yeah some iranian apparently was grabbing people by the throat and choking everybody out i said some iranian i go did he didn't fight i was doing karate for six months i go it wasn't a karate guy was it he goes yeah he beat karate he beat boxers he beat i go by choking him out like this he goes yeah that's what they told me and i go so the second one came out my friend called him goes The ultimate challenge thing is coming out again.

[654] I go, tape it, tape it.

[655] So I got home, and I watched it.

[656] And, man, I hated Hoyce Gracie in the opening rounds.

[657] Because I wanted the karate guy to win.

[658] When he fought Monokia Jihar, I'm like, that was my hero.

[659] I didn't even know who he was, but he did karate.

[660] And I thought, okay, he's my hero.

[661] And then, but on the other side was Pat Smith, and I didn't like him.

[662] And then I didn't like Hoyce either.

[663] But then by the time the finals came, I fell in love with Hoyce.

[664] Like, go, Hoyce.

[665] By the time the finals hit, I was in love with him, and I go, I got a buying this because I wrestled in high school a couple years and I thought either this is primitive wrestling or it's super advanced wrestling.

[666] I didn't know what it was.

[667] So I went in, I found John Jacques Machado, I went in there and I got choked out 37 times by a purple belt by a Dave Meyer.

[668] Dave Meyer.

[669] I remember Dave.

[670] And I remember thinking one day I'm going to be able to do this with someone who just walked in.

[671] I was so from that point on, I was obsessed with this.

[672] This is a like a changing life experience.

[673] What was it like for you to be there, to do not compete and knowing that you were better than your brother?

[674] There's all this talk about why you didn't compete in the UFC.

[675] I mean, I come here to support Horon and the cause of being like, spreading the art. And in one point, I was Horon soldiers for whatever.

[676] And in another point, I decided to follow my own path, and, of course, keeping the alliance, but going in my own direction.

[677] And then, Horian called me and asked me to train Hoyce.

[678] I didn't know why, and he said, and then he said, oh, I planning to do some events.

[679] I said, okay, let's do it.

[680] So I was his coach for the first and second event.

[681] And then somebody asked me through Eric Paulson and assistant of, of Denino Santo, Yuri, Nakamura, was in Shoro, yes.

[682] So he sent me an invitation to participate of a Shoro competition.

[683] So then they sent me a tape to see what the rules are about.

[684] And I didn't like the rules, but I like the locks.

[685] So I started training the locks.

[686] And I said, no, man, this is, I mean, there's no, I don't like it.

[687] So, and then we start to immediately say, I don't want to do.

[688] And then my ex -wife Much more calm Start to negotiate with the guys And start to say, but if we change the rules So it was kind of Talking talk And eventually they decide to change the rules For a new open rules And then I advise the way Supposed to be the rules So we create the new Valitude 94 And then When I signed the I mean when I about to sign the contract Horium called me And said Hickson What are you doing?

[689] I said yeah man I'd be invited to fight in Japan I said, no, you should not go because this goes against the family.

[690] UFC is our game.

[691] We should be and support the family and stay here as hoist coach.

[692] I said, man, that's not exactly what I vision for myself because, I mean, I'm here being coached.

[693] I get one penny.

[694] You put a lot of dollars in your pocket.

[695] You give me nothing.

[696] I mean, you give me some money for me to sit on the bench.

[697] We are in business, but if you give me nothing, the guys offer me a lot of money to go.

[698] You don't even have it you gave me. what they offer.

[699] You just gave me some.

[700] He said, no, no, you should do for the love of the defense.

[701] I said, yeah, man, I love you guys, but you love me and you give me nothing.

[702] How are I going to love you?

[703] I mean, so I went to Japan and dealing my tank and started winning there.

[704] And then I get my direction towards Japan, which was very good for me. The community there, the education, the culture there was very, I mean, I feel like home.

[705] and that's pretty much where I direct myself, my career, my end of my career to Japan but now Crown is back to see what's going to happen.

[706] So were you worried at all with Hoyt's doing the UFC?

[707] Did you think, because he was the youngest one of the brothers' ride and he didn't compete as much and were you worried at all that maybe it was Yes, but the idea, the primary idea of Royce in Go -in is because he was not the best one But he was something, it's going to be a good test for him.

[708] It's a good, you know, to break the ice and stuff.

[709] But not exactly, if something happened, it's always a backup.

[710] You were the backup.

[711] Yes.

[712] So I was there to just jump in in case.

[713] So if someone beat Hoyce, you would have jumped into the UFC.

[714] Oh, immediately, immediately.

[715] What about after the chemo incident?

[716] Yeah, but that's after that.

[717] Yeah, after that, I was already engaged in Japan.

[718] I was already kind of, yes.

[719] You had a contract with them over there?

[720] Yeah, not for many fights.

[721] I never did many fights.

[722] I mean, many fights in one contract.

[723] But I felt like Hordeon create a very awkward situation, you know, and was a kind of little division, you know.

[724] So I was not appealing to go there and show my support to Hoyce and be there just.

[725] So I allowed him to have his own destiny.

[726] There was also the talk that Hoyce was a slender guy who was younger.

[727] He wasn't as intimidating as you.

[728] and that it sort of accentuated the idea of jiu -jitsu was technique -based, whereas you're a scary guy.

[729] You're a scary guy now, but you were a really scary guy then.

[730] You were the only, you were the only yoke, shredded Gracie.

[731] You were like 185, right?

[732] Something like that?

[733] Yeah, depend.

[734] I start, Zulu was like I have 74 kilos.

[735] What's that?

[736] 74 kilos, maybe 180.

[737] 180, okay.

[738] Maybe, maybe a little less.

[739] And then my last fight in Japan, I did with.

[740] with...

[741] Funaki?

[742] Yes, I was one...

[743] 95.

[744] Nice.

[745] Because he was like...

[746] He's like 220, right?

[747] Funaki is 230.

[748] And then, you know, I was making a preparation to go heavier than this, sometimes even 200, and then cream, cut down for the...

[749] To get my best shape.

[750] When we spoke, it was 2000 and...

[751] When we had dinner, what was it, 2005 or something like that, somewhere around there?

[752] You were still thinking about fighting, like Fedor and the higher level guys.

[753] Yes, yes.

[754] But none of that ever materialized, though.

[755] Never, yes, because I never have the, after my son departure on 2000, I was about to make the best contract of my life.

[756] I just finished with Funaki and I received a proposal, a millionaire proposal to fight Sakuraba.

[757] He was still on the top.

[758] And then my son departure, I was.

[759] I have to have, like, a moment for the family and regroup as a whole.

[760] By departure, your son passed away.

[761] He passed away, yeah.

[762] So it was a moment I could escape by doing a fight, say, okay, I'm going to focus on the fight.

[763] But I felt like my family will be completely unprotected and unsupported.

[764] So I said, no, I don't care about the fight.

[765] I will be.

[766] So I spent about two years to make the whole family feels good again, and we all regain strength.

[767] and happiness again.

[768] So after that, I started to get a free agent for a couple of years.

[769] We tried to make something close to what I have.

[770] But the whole business itself in Japan, the fact Sakuraba lost for Vanderle and things like that diminished that kind of huge purse.

[771] And then I felt like, no, I just want to fight if it's that much.

[772] So I start to be very resistance about my next fight.

[773] fight, some opportunities, but I kind of push away.

[774] And to the point, on 2008, I was already moved back to Brazil for a while.

[775] A guy from Texas invited me to compete in a new event and pull me to fight feather.

[776] And I was looking for that, but I had a little injury on my hip.

[777] And until I be able to feel good to training, I could not sign.

[778] and because he has a deadline in terms of promotion and such I could not sign without having 100 % confidence because if I sign I will fight I'm not going to and I feel I don't have the time I'm going to get so I said you know what I don't want it and in my heart I went to the beach and said thank you God for everything I have I'm out so I stopped competing not exactly the way I want but I felt like I have to respect God's decision and I just don't want to just jeopardizing my life for the money you know for you okay the guy pulled me money I go there and so I feel like I have to go to represent Jiu -jitsu either I go 100 % or you know I hope somebody else coming and I'll get to see what Crown does I'm sorry he's gonna do great that are all the great fighters that you saw during that time from the time well Hoyce entered the UFC to the time that you retired the guys like Mark Coleman and Boss Rout and Fedor and was there any that you really wish that you could have had an opportunity to match up against?

[779] I always visualizing myself against the number one.

[780] You know, I could not even think about, so one point it was Coleman.

[781] The other point was, you know, I mean, you name it the champions.

[782] And then Fedor Gat, Arisen makes like a big expression.

[783] So I could not think about other guy.

[784] to represent jiu -jitsu I have always to vision that but the set of rules are different you know at the time we could express technique with more because we have time you know I never somebody asked me oh yeah you have only few fights in MMA I said no I never fought MMA I always fought Valitud because MMA is a different animal you go there for three rounds five minutes it's better to have offensive techniques than defensive techniques the defense is not going to do good for you.

[785] It's going to do good if you have at least one round 10 minutes and then another.

[786] So if you have like my fights around endless rounds of 50 minutes, it's endless rounds of five minutes.

[787] So in that way, you can prepare yourself for a different strategy.

[788] You know, you have to follow the movements and you cannot just go all the way if it's empty your gas and then fill up and empty again because, you know, if you empty your gas and the wrong time, you're in trouble.

[789] So all the technique and stretching your gas and be calm and finding comfortable positions, those are strip right now.

[790] Now it becomes a very stream, a very physical.

[791] You see athletes in the same way division, but a guy who fights in the 155 walks around with 180, 185.

[792] So the technology on the sport today is a huge thing, the physicality.

[793] That's why technique is only a piece of it.

[794] You know, what Kron does today is not only training jiu -jitsu and become comfortable in the skills.

[795] He training like a dog and all the elements he can do to become athletic and explosive and physical and going to lost weight like everybody else.

[796] Plus the technique, which I feel in one point will be the edge he needs to make the difference.

[797] Do you think there's something missing in today's mixed martial arts that the original jiu -jitsu sort of expressed?

[798] this idea of having an open round, having a no -limit fight.

[799] Is there a room for that today, do you think?

[800] Or do you think we're hampered by this idea of a three -hour pay -per -view window or a two -hour television window?

[801] Yeah, it's funny because, you know, the other day I got caught watching a four -hour match in tennis.

[802] You know, it was a great match, was a long, and still going one more set?

[803] Four hours?

[804] Oh, man, you see.

[805] I have no idea they were that long.

[806] Do you know that long?

[807] I had no idea either.

[808] Diopovich and Nadal and the, I think, French Open last year.

[809] I don't know what that is.

[810] Five hours.

[811] Five hours, non -stop, man. And they go to the tie break and start again and the advantage.

[812] It was unbelievable, you know.

[813] So if you're passionate about tennis, sometimes the game can be like 45 minutes.

[814] Sometimes it can be a couple of hours.

[815] Because you're there in the action, you know.

[816] So for me, when we're talking about engagement, we're talking about, I mean, the best one out there.

[817] And when I see a fight after 15 minutes, because somebody punch once or fall on top or just giving a throw, both guys stand up, they both desire, and then the time is over.

[818] Who wants the fight?

[819] In my opinion, supposed to be a draw.

[820] Because how the guy can win just because one more point?

[821] The guys are warriors, the guys are willing to go.

[822] So it's always like halfway to what's supposed to be, you know, because okay, you have to decide by points after 50, okay, so, I mean, it's hard because, you know, sometimes the guy even have the best of it, but that doesn't guarantee if the fight goes longer, if it's still that, because toughness, resilience and heart and technique, they all going to pay, in one point, going to pay a big situation, you know.

[823] So for me, not the rules today and the U .S. see and such doesn't translate the best guy out there translates the most agile the most tough the one who get connect first you know because sometimes the fight can be either way whoever connects first whoever makes the first can win so it's kind of hard to evaluate but if you put two guys in the cage and okay man whoever's get out first is the winner so and that's a different animal because you have to be technical, you have to be patient, you have to be so, you know, I can see, first is the expectation is all in the, how Cron we're going to do.

[824] But if confirms what I believe can be done, eventually I feel like Cron will be comfortable to challenge anyone for a no -time limit fight.

[825] Because, I mean, I don't care if he's Velasquez, I don't care if he's John Jones.

[826] If Crone do what he has to do, with the time he has to do, I believe on him.

[827] Like I believe myself.

[828] If I have the health today and the physicality I like to have, I mean, I don't see a guy just because he's winning on the cage.

[829] He can win me. Because I don't see the opportunities happen on the cage.

[830] I'm not going to give those opportunities.

[831] So it's hard to say, but, you know, the way division doesn't make.

[832] too much difference for me if I have the time to cook and slow burn but if the things kind of if even in my weight division 80 kilos for example if I'm gonna fight a guy we have 95 kilos and make a technology so I'm gonna fight a different monster in five minutes round it's almost impossible how I mean so and then that's kind of unbalanced now based on the stream aspect of the sport the physicality of the sport and the technique who has to be applied so the difference between a fight and a match, the difference between a fight and a sport.

[833] And in a fight, they're just two guys going at each other.

[834] And I agree that there's many, many, many fights where a guy win a 10 -9 round and another guy won the other 10 -9 round.

[835] And then one guy won the final round, maybe 10 -9.

[836] Just for a little throw or something.

[837] But it's a draw.

[838] Yeah, it's a draw.

[839] It's not done.

[840] It's like sex without an orgasm.

[841] It's not completely.

[842] Yeah.

[843] And normally happens.

[844] I mean, sometimes beautiful knockouts, but sometimes, you know, It's just, you know, too much strength, too much physicality, and every time goes to the guy immediately stand up, because if he knows, if he's to stay on the ground, he's losing time and he's not going to be able to capitalize because the time is not as long as enough and too short.

[845] So that's kind of, you know, a great area.

[846] It's not, it doesn't have the appeal for me to see a good, a good match.

[847] What about when Hoyce fought Sakarabana, and they had that crazy 90 -minute match?

[848] Yes, what about?

[849] That was an idea.

[850] of like having these long, long matches?

[851] For us in Jiu -Jitsu, we need time because we don't have, I mean, we give the advantage of weight.

[852] We give advantage of, you know, whatever.

[853] So let's at least have the time for us to become strategical.

[854] Would you have preferred that kind of a fight to be no rounds, though?

[855] Because that fight, they broke up into a series of rounds.

[856] Yeah, I mean, at that point, I felt like it was a lack of action of, I mean, Hoy is supposed to fight better.

[857] I was not on his side.

[858] And I see a pattern on him to sometimes make little mistakes, which when I was there, I was focused and making him feel sharp.

[859] And if I'm not there, I felt like a little fuzzy attitude mentally.

[860] His focus was not.

[861] So it's a lot of different elements to justify, you know, because I believe Royce has elements to beat Sakuraba, you know.

[862] But he didn't.

[863] So, it's just...

[864] He did the second time.

[865] Yeah.

[866] The rematch.

[867] Yeah, he fought him the second time in L .A., right?

[868] Yeah.

[869] Were you there when he fought him the second time, the rematch?

[870] No. Did you know he beat him, right?

[871] Hoyce beat Sakarab.

[872] Yeah, and the rematch.

[873] You were aware of that, right?

[874] No, I'm not.

[875] Oh, okay.

[876] Yeah, they had a rematch and he beat him here in L .A. It was K -1, right?

[877] It was K -1.

[878] It was at the Coliseum.

[879] Yeah.

[880] That was the first time Brock Lesnar fought, too.

[881] Yeah.

[882] Now, there's a lot of problems Jiu -Jitsu guys have world -class Mundial Black Belt champions have in MMA is they get in the cage and it happens.

[883] I would say it's a big reason why they end up getting cut from the UFC is they end up fighting wrestlers.

[884] Like everyone at the top 10 is really hard to take down the UFC.

[885] So a jiu -jitsu guy will come in and he's fighting a guy who wrestled his whole life.

[886] There's zero chance that he's going to be able to take down that wrestler.

[887] So he's forced to kickbox, right?

[888] So the wrestler's forcing the kickboxing fight because the jiu -jitsu guy can't take down the wrestler.

[889] In those situations, like, I don't know if you remember, Nogera, when he fought Tim Sylvia, the big giant guy, he could not take Tim Sylvia down.

[890] So he eventually shot Tim Sylvia sprawled a little bit, and then Nogera pulled guard.

[891] He was on his back.

[892] He swept him.

[893] He got on top, and then he choked him out with a guillotine.

[894] So in that situation, the guard pool saved Noggera because what do you think about I 100 % confident in the guard because what I see today in the display of great Jujitsu fighters in the cage is they have the guard but they have a sportive guard.

[895] They don't have a Valitudo guard.

[896] Yes.

[897] They're not dangerous from the bottom.

[898] Yes.

[899] So they become technicals from the bottom against the dangerous ground and pound.

[900] Yeah.

[901] So they get all that, they're getting all that disadvantage.

[902] So in my perspective, for example, Cron, he's been training to deal with tough wrestlers, tough boxers, but he don't try to apply wrestling against wrestling, because he's going to need another life to become like a shoots or like Matt Hughes or like some other tough.

[903] What is the strategy for Cron when he fights a wrestler that he can't take?

[904] down he brings to the guard so he's so guard pulling is something that he's thinking about the guard he's no other option on the ground jiu jitsu has to be happy on top and happier on the bottom yes people frown upon i'm a big advocate of pulling guard in m -ma there are fighters that have done it there's a guy named paul sass from england he pulls guard all the time he's a master of pulling guard he knows exactly how to do it he shoots deep the guy sprawls and as he's sprawling he pulls guard and he puts people in triangles yeah but that triangle victories in a row yeah he's But the triangle is risky because once you know how to defend, like arm lock, you become available for ground and pound.

[905] So if the guy is completely safe not getting caught in the triangle, your attempts of techniques are kind of diminishing your capacity to survive and to defend yourself.

[906] So you're attacking techniques from the bottom, but you're still on the reach.

[907] Yes.

[908] So the idea of a perfect valitude guard is save your distance to don't get pounded by those surprising elbows like John John.

[909] So they clench overhook?

[910] No, no, you cannot clinch.

[911] You have to use the legs, and you have to hit with the legs.

[912] So it's always a striking from the bottom, you know.

[913] Doesn't have to be.

[914] So you don't believe that you should be clenched in a long time?

[915] Only if the guy promotes that.

[916] If he wants his space to hit you, you need to be comfortable and hit him back.

[917] So it's a fight where, imagine a 12 -year -old kid laying down the ground we fits to you if you start to using the foot it's going to be hard for even you with a big man to reach yeah so it's no use of the legs people has no clue how to striking how to use i know in ufc has some illegal heel from the bottom you can but you still can use different strikes you know you can even have the distance to survive and to be completely protected against elbows and the issue though that is someone can disengage if you're on your back and you're trying to not clinch and not hold on to him.

[918] You're a jiu -jitsu practitioner.

[919] The guy can just disengage.

[920] You have to stand up.

[921] Once he disengage, he's escaping from the fight.

[922] I can't stand up again.

[923] And keep the same process of clinching.

[924] So now, Crohn's in a situation where he's fighting a wrestler and he can't take him down.

[925] Then he pulls guard.

[926] Yes.

[927] And then he opens up his legs to kick the guy stands up.

[928] Now he's got to stand up again.

[929] Yes.

[930] So they could just keep doing that over and over again.

[931] And if it's a wrestler, like, how does he win?

[932] How does he win?

[933] Chuck Liddell, who's an expert striker as well as a wrestler, very tough to take down, but also an expert striker.

[934] When you get that guy to the ground, don't you want to optimize that opportunity as much as possible and hang on to him while you're on the bottom?

[935] That depends.

[936] Depends where the weight distribution is.

[937] I have to obey this sense.

[938] If he's on me, I will sweep him.

[939] I will be on his back in no time.

[940] If he's away from me, if he wants to look in for distance, I have to understand that and respect that and protect myself to don't get pounded, you know, and that process of, okay, I don't want to engage, he's moving back and then you stand up.

[941] And all this process, a lot of things happen.

[942] What is important for a jiu -jitsu fighter is no everything about the anti -game of the striker.

[943] I don't make Crohn, I don't try to make Crone a good striker.

[944] I want to make him comfortable to in and out.

[945] I want to make very comfortable to fight inside with knees and elbows.

[946] You know, be dangerous inside, be comfortable on top, and be very comfortable on the bottom.

[947] And the action, man, because it's a lot of, even though in those five minutes fight, is a lot of action.

[948] I mean, there's a lot of stalling, is a lot of studying, is a lot of disengage.

[949] I mean, they engage a little bit and then they separate and, okay, now let's think, let's see who's fight.

[950] it's hard to see a guy who just goes like and I feel like the great element, the great strategy of Chrome is going to keep a consistent pressure that means he's not going to be studying or in a distance where the striker feels like waiting is going to be either too out or two in and then once he's in let's fight in fight let's fight like you know elbows whatever and then immediately the fight goes to the ground no matter if it's on top or on the bottom and then the consistency of this I feel like opportunities will rise Do you watch MMA a lot today?

[951] Yes, yes Did you watch BJ Penn's last fight?

[952] Yes That fight was very sad to me, very sad to watch and I was very frustrated watching it as a BJ Penn fan, as a Frankie Edgar fan I thought it was a great performance but one of the things that frustrates me about BJ is that he very rarely attacks from his back When he's on the bottom, he puts feet on the hips, and he just kind of holds on.

[953] Yes, maybe he was not exactly, I don't know.

[954] I mean, he did a poor game from the bottom, in my perspective.

[955] He's supposed to have a little more elements to not preserve his integrity, but also to attack, you know.

[956] And I don't feel that, and I feel like, I mean, he's just not doing what he's supposed to do.

[957] Eddie, we talked about that.

[958] That sort of frustrated you a little bit too, right?

[959] Yes.

[960] I don't know if you're aware of this Hickson, but I'm obsessed with, I've been obsessed with developing the best guard for when they're striking.

[961] I analyze it to death, and the guard that I comprised, I put elements from, you know, my students help me, Nino Shembury helped me. So I put all these elements together, but it all started off when I was on this quest to put together the ultimate guard for MMA because I was seeing too many guys just get beat up in the guard and I thought we got to, like I felt like you have like the effectiveness has gone.

[962] What is the problem?

[963] Why are people getting pounded in the guard?

[964] We have to change this though.

[965] The first thing I studied was you and Henzzo.

[966] This was back in the 90s.

[967] I go, okay, I'm going to attempt to improve the guard in MMA.

[968] So I looked at you and I looked at Hensong, what are they doing?

[969] They're in full guard and they're holding the overhook to prevent the punch.

[970] Like anybody tried to punch in the guard with their right arm.

[971] You would overhook it.

[972] And when head butts were legal, your left head was like this.

[973] You were like this protecting the headbutt.

[974] But then when they made head butts legal, you don't have to do this no more.

[975] So you could hold the head now.

[976] And now in this position with the overhook, you have full guard.

[977] You're holding the head.

[978] There's a clinch there.

[979] So to me, as trying to be a jiu -jitsu scientist, I'm like, if that is the stance in MMA, that's it.

[980] You and Hanzo, that's what you guys are doing.

[981] You look at all the old fights, full guard, stop the punch, hold the head.

[982] And so to me, that was the starting point.

[983] Yes, I agree.

[984] But Jiu -Jitsu is an animal who has never stopped to grow.

[985] Yes.

[986] You know?

[987] And one day I was comfortably in California watching a fight in Brazil.

[988] And then I saw like an eight -man tournament where Fabio Gugel was fighting Mark Kerr.

[989] And Mark Kerr was the first time he'd show up in the...

[990] First time I saw him in fighting.

[991] That was his first tournament.

[992] Yes.

[993] So, and he went to the finals with Fabio, and I knew Fabio.

[994] I trained with him.

[995] He's a brother, you know.

[996] And I saw what he did with Fabio.

[997] Like, stay on top, ground and pound, and smashing the elbow on his face.

[998] After Fabio's tooth, getting to his arm.

[999] And it was like next day he was all in flame my arm, and he would go into the airplane like this.

[1000] He may almost lose the arm because then they, given about whenever but anyway after I saw that fight and in the in the lack of options Fabi was there next day in the morning I wake up I call my son Hawkson he's 10 to 11 years old about 110 pounds said Hawkson come here and then I went to the garage on my mats said lay down put him lay down and I try to represent the same position because the different the size weight is almost the same from Fabio Gugel to Marker than me for for hoxon so i kind of immediately put him in fabulous position and i put myself in in a mark care position and then i start to analyze his position and say roxon do this do that move a little more this way so we're not a fighting but i try to find him a position for him to be comfortable.

[1001] And I spend about 45, 50 minutes searching, studying with him, because I like that kind of unproportional size.

[1002] When I finish that section, I'm totally like, I reinvent myself in terms of what I'm going to do if I have to fight Marquire tomorrow, because I was satisfied with the angles I could put Hoxton in order to resist my leverage, my angle, angles, what exactly I saw in the day before.

[1003] So that means from one day to another, I kind of focus myself and fix it, a problem I saw with Fabio.

[1004] And at that point, I felt like, okay, I'm fixed now.

[1005] I'm ready to fight Fabio, Rujail, tomorrow.

[1006] What is this, what is this stance?

[1007] What did you change?

[1008] Exactly.

[1009] I could not, I could not have him, Hawksson could not have him in control.

[1010] He has to create distance.

[1011] He has to...

[1012] How?

[1013] Shinn across the belly?

[1014] No, he has to use the feet more properly.

[1015] Feet on the hips?

[1016] Yes.

[1017] He has to use the knee on the chest sometimes.

[1018] He has to use the element of as I approach to getting better position.

[1019] The bottom guy has to hit because if you don't strike, you don't make the guy kind of go back.

[1020] So it's a combination between fighting in Brazil we have two different names when you bra and when you fight fight is more like a sportive and when you bra you like just do it whatever so technically speaking when somebody wants to attack me as a brawler I don't want to fight brawl back I want to be technical and survive and be comfortable and soon he starts to say I cannot have anything here let me be technically to see if I can advance, and that's the time I will brawl against him and make him get confused.

[1021] So I have to change strategies as he comes.

[1022] If he comes in to be a fighter, I will be aggressive, I will be mean.

[1023] If he coming to be a brawler, I will be technical, and I will be comfortable.

[1024] So that kind of sense of change gives a perspective for the bottom guy to be on edge, to be on top of the offense.

[1025] Now, Mark Kerr, in that fight that you're talking about Faber -Ger -Ger -Gel, headbutts were legal.

[1026] a huge part of how he was getting busted up with headbutts.

[1027] But since then, headbutts have become illegal.

[1028] Were the headbutts a big reason you decided to change your guard stance?

[1029] Also, but the elbows and the reach and the way the guy positioned himself, you know, and the way Fabio was always with the leg cross, he was following exactly what he learned and what he saw, and he could not have the time to improvise.

[1030] nobody expect Mark Kerr being tough as he was.

[1031] It's so big.

[1032] The monster just happened in front of Fabio, and he has to deal with whatever he had.

[1033] Did you know he was crying and throwing up in the locker room before that fight?

[1034] Yeah, he's always a little emotional, yes.

[1035] Very nervous.

[1036] And, I mean, shows in a little documentary he did, he always had a little imbalance.

[1037] Yeah, he's kind of, in one point, he's a potential, he was the man to be beating.

[1038] He was like, he was enormous.

[1039] Yes, and he's very serious.

[1040] You know, as a fan, as a fan of jiu -jitsu.

[1041] a fan of mixed martial arts and valetudeau man i just wish you had had those opportunities to face those guys i would have loved to have seen that me true now now um what i and like i said i when i was trying to figure out the best mhm a guard i was looking at you i was looking at hickson grabbing the overhook and but the one thing i knew is if that's the defensive posture this is what i was thinking i didn't know you changed it up but at that point i thought that was it that's the defensive posture someone was in your guard you have to defend first so i thought well, okay, that has to be the stance, so we have to create offense from that stance.

[1042] So the defense is first, and do we have offense from the overhook?

[1043] And my instructor, Jean -Jacques Machado, he is one of the only guys I know of, out of all the top jujitsu guys, that his whole game is based on the overhook and not grabbing the sleeves because his left hand, he was born without fingers.

[1044] So no matter what, whether it was ghee or no ghee, he needed that overhook because he couldn't control the sleeves.

[1045] So his overhook game was translated to a student, me included.

[1046] So I was always looking for the overhook because Jean -Jacques was my master.

[1047] And then when he got invited to Abu Dhabi, before he went to Abu Dhabi, there was a lot of legends there, a lot of Jiu -Jitsu legends that were going to Abu Dhabi, and without the ghee, there was no offense.

[1048] There was a lot of boring matches, but Jean -Jacques shows up, and he just rises above everybody.

[1049] If you watch what Jean -Jacques did in Abu Dhabi, he didn't change, his left arm didn't change without a Ghee.

[1050] He's like, no, Ghee, I'm still going to grab that overhook anyways.

[1051] Everybody else was lost because they were used to their fighting stance, their guard fighting stance was sleeve, collar, collar sleeve.

[1052] So without the Gie, they had to change everything and they weren't used to it.

[1053] They didn't have any offense from there.

[1054] So to me, I took what you and Henzel were doing with the overhook and the controlling, but that's how Jean -Jacques fights with the overhook.

[1055] So all his sweeps, John Jock sweeps, look at all his sweeps.

[1056] Abu Dhabi he's throwing people around his first year he submitted everybody he was like the first Marcelo Garcia everybody was freaked out like how was this guy doing it they didn't even understand it but to me it was like it's because his game didn't change when he's training in the ghee he's training for Abu Dhabi the people that were training in the key before they weren't training for Abu Dhabi he was because it was all overhook every he was sweeping wrestlers all the caro uno he was all over these guys so for me that overhook not as Not for Jean -Jacques, that overhook is important for grappling, not even for Vallatudo.

[1057] So if he did Valladuto or if someone with that style guard did Vallado, the overhook game automatically takes away the punch and he has offense from that style too.

[1058] So for me, that became the basis and the focus for the ultimate MMA guard was to master the overhook like Jean -Jacques and not only just defend, but put those butterflies in and try to sweep or set up triangles, like you have an overhook, you sweep, he bases, you grab that wrist, boom, triangle.

[1059] So I thought that was the, based on what you and Hanzo did and Jean -Jacques style, because of, it was like a blessing in disguise, him born without fingers.

[1060] It was a blessing in disguise.

[1061] He's an Abu Dhabi legend.

[1062] Everybody looks at Jean -Jocke as Yoda.

[1063] Like, how did you come into Abu Dhabi and finish everybody?

[1064] To me, it was just that overhug game.

[1065] He didn't really have to change much of his game.

[1066] So that's how Marcella Garcia, that's his philosophy too.

[1067] His philosophy is, and he said this in interviews it, if you can't do it, if you're training, if there's a ghee technique that you can't do no ghee, throw it out.

[1068] Only focus on the techniques that are going to translate to no ghee.

[1069] So that way, when you're practicing the ghee, you're actually practicing no ghee as well.

[1070] So Jean -J or Marcelo is very against being reliant too much on the collar and too much on the sleeve.

[1071] he stays away from that because even takedowns, he doesn't want to do judo takedowns because no ghee, they're not going to work as much.

[1072] He wants to do takedowns in the ghee that translate no ghee.

[1073] So that's just the conclusions that I came to, that's how I train my fighters that are fighting in M .M .A. And it all started with watching you and Henzzo.

[1074] Yes, I completely, you know, feel like that's a good standard position because you have to have a control and stuff.

[1075] But the evolutionary process brought other kinds of guards, you know.

[1076] And I kind of also find my comfort about those days and show and a more spacey guard, more like towards my father's guard was because he was a very weak guy, always handle big guys.

[1077] And he don't have like this kind of strength or control over his opponents.

[1078] So he was more like hip movements and using the ankles, using the foot.

[1079] You know, it's more like a very little from the bottom, allowing the guy to get lost.

[1080] So it's a combination between the two, I think it's two days, is the perfect option.

[1081] Why do you think Ronda Rousey is the only fighter in MMA today that when she's pulling off, her arm bar looks amazing.

[1082] Have you seen her highlight?

[1083] Of course.

[1084] It's why, as soon as she's in the guard, as soon as she's not going to wait, she's going to go and attack that arm, and she goes right to it.

[1085] She doesn't wait.

[1086] And I've trained with her many times, and her arm bar is legit.

[1087] It's not a joke.

[1088] To me, I think she has the best arm bar in MMA today.

[1089] No one has pulled it off as much as she has.

[1090] And yes, she hasn't really gone against top -level jujitsu girls.

[1091] But based on me training with her, I think that she can tap out.

[1092] It's going to be harder, of course.

[1093] Why do you think she's the only one and there's all these black belts and jiu -jitsu in M. And they're not, they don't look anything like Ronda Rousey.

[1094] Why is that?

[1095] She's a special girl.

[1096] She's very competitive.

[1097] She's a very talent person.

[1098] But aside of this, she have a heavy training in judo which defines her character, you know, defines her desire to train hard, to compete, So being an Olympic level judo player is being a wrestler in that level.

[1099] That's bringing you to a different level, you know.

[1100] It's not being just an athlete.

[1101] She's a super athlete.

[1102] She's very defined and very, very much specialized in one thing.

[1103] Their game, her game is always like going towards the same pattern.

[1104] and the opponent she's facing is not exactly prepare for that.

[1105] I feel like nobody has the skills on the ground to fight her and nobody has the heavy hands and the situation to beat her and standing up.

[1106] So everything is kind of even up but when goes to the ground once the opponent gets the first throw and falls like without seeing any, get lost.

[1107] And then her movements are very, very effective and will capitalize on that.

[1108] But, you know, maybe five fights, ten fights more, beautiful wins.

[1109] But eventually, she's going to have a person who has the same elements and then she's going to start to have competition, because so far it feels like even too easy, you know, it's like not even a competition for it.

[1110] She's like a Mike Tyson.

[1111] She's like, when Mike Tyson was in his prime, she was just smashing the competition.

[1112] How do you, eventually, Cyborg Ronda's going to happen.

[1113] Dana's going to make sure that happens.

[1114] Eventually, how do you see that going?

[1115] Oh, that's interesting because, you know, she will have the preparation, the mindset, the heavy hands, and also the skill to become like a competitor for Honda, I think.

[1116] You know, it's unpredictable, like, you know, any fight, you know.

[1117] If you had to put your money down, who would you?

[1118] There's no reason for me to put my money in other person than Honda.

[1119] I mean, Honda is in a good, I mean.

[1120] She's getting better, too.

[1121] That's scary.

[1122] She's in her stand -up.

[1123] Did you see her last fight?

[1124] Yeah, she's improving.

[1125] She's throwing combinations with the judo throws, and her throws are just out of control.

[1126] Best judo in MMA.

[1127] Yeah, she's, best judo in MMA.

[1128] throwing people and yeah and misha when she found misha misha is a legit wrestler misha can wrestle and she's making some big mistakes though she was very high up on her above her weight was above the hips i mean i think there was a lot of pressure involved in that fight she made a lot of mistakes do you you would think that when you in m a minute generally when someone starts doing something that's effective that wasn't a done before like the front snap kick that Travis brown is doing now seroni's doing it all the time nobody was throwing that We need to see it first work in the UFC and go, oh, man, the front snap kick or the rear leg snap kick to the chest.

[1129] That's working now.

[1130] So that's huge now.

[1131] Five years ago, no one threw it.

[1132] They thought it was a waste of time.

[1133] It doesn't work.

[1134] That only works in the movies.

[1135] But there's all these kicks, head kicks.

[1136] And now that we've seen Rhonda show the effectiveness of focusing and drilling that arm bar over and over again, she talks about, do you think people aren't paying attention to it and aren't going, look what works.

[1137] Look what happens with the arm bar when you do it 100 ,000 times.

[1138] Let's do that.

[1139] Do you think they're not doing it because she's a girl?

[1140] No one's paying attention, really?

[1141] You think it's easy.

[1142] I mean, her performance reflects a life.

[1143] Even her parents are involved in judo.

[1144] Yeah.

[1145] So it's a lifetime of achievements.

[1146] It's a subconscious reflex.

[1147] It's not something which you educate people.

[1148] You don't think you could learn it if you practiced hard enough?

[1149] You have to be like at least in a classification phase to go to the top 10 in judo.

[1150] It's not just learn.

[1151] It's dedicate yourself, your sweat and tears and blood.

[1152] Its intensity.

[1153] To get there, you know.

[1154] It's like being a jiu -jitsu champion is one thing.

[1155] Doing what Kron does today is another thing.

[1156] He is not only fighting hard, but he goes and train hard and run hard.

[1157] and lift weights, whatever he does, he does with the compromise to excel.

[1158] And that's a mindset.

[1159] It's not exactly you teach.

[1160] It's something, I believe Honda is a special girl because she put herself in that kind of level of stress and she handled and she, I mean, the training is hard, the focus is hard, she's serious.

[1161] And the whole formula is there to support her victories.

[1162] You know, it's not a flake or it's not a lucky or it's not, oh, you learn.

[1163] Come here, let me show you how to defend the army lock, and now you go, you're ready to fight.

[1164] It's not like that, you know.

[1165] So anyone in the mixed martial arts coming from a background because they see mixed martial arts as a good exposure, as a good situation to make money, to make...

[1166] So they come in with an average background to try, you know, their best.

[1167] They sometimes have it from the wrestling family and then learning some box, some jiu -jitsu, some defense, and go.

[1168] they come from the judo and go they come from the jiu -jitsu and go and learning a little bit here and there but very few are like like Randy Couture which is already established champion like Coleman you know guys who have defined their lives in one thing and then they breed to another but they have already the sense of you know they believe in themselves they can capitalize on the mistakes they forward forever so those things you know you don't buy it on the on the work ethic on the supermarket you know those things is lifetime experience and it's hard to yeah the intensity that ronda rousey brings to training just to life itself is very difficult to replicate and that it has it resonates throughout everything she does yes she's crazy yeah now when in the best way when crone went against Shinya Yoki, I'm assuming that you studied a lot of Shinya Aoki tapes.

[1169] Do you, I personally think he's one of the best at Jiu -Jitsu in MMA.

[1170] As far as, he's gotten so many submissions.

[1171] He'll get you with leg locks.

[1172] He has a great rear naked choke.

[1173] His guard's really good.

[1174] Were you impressed by watching tape of Shinye?

[1175] Shinya is not only I'm impressed by tapes.

[1176] The first Buddha challenge I did, he win with honors, you know.

[1177] he won the Buddha Challenge and submitting everybody, you know?

[1178] He won your...

[1179] Yeah, the Buddha Challenge has different weight divisions.

[1180] In his weight division, he makes two fights and submit both.

[1181] And who were the guys?

[1182] Do you remember?

[1183] Carl, he fought...

[1184] Two guys.

[1185] Well, I didn't even really know who he was in 2005 to tell you the truth, and you already knew.

[1186] Yeah, so anyway, I felt how tight, how tight, how precision his submission.

[1187] He got a flying army lock in the first guy And the foot lock in the second guy So I felt like he's very versatile He has a highlight really in judah Where he would do flying armbars in judo Just one after another And that was something I absorbed And then I, in our training with Crohn I said And we kind of decide to Because he was very comfortable When you engage on the grip So from your grip he can go for a flying triangle, flying arm locks and such.

[1188] So Cron was pressing him without engaging, using the foot and trying to make him feel like he has to engage, not Cron grabbing.

[1189] So that's kind of give the first way for him to feel like lost.

[1190] He was expecting Cron to attempt, but Cron was pressing without grabbing.

[1191] If you see the fight again, you see.

[1192] So in one point they engaged, Cron pulled to the guard.

[1193] and he was kind of trying to stay and Cron go to the head once he can escape and then Cron finish with the headlock when they roll but the guy is very tough we are not worried about the Jiu -Jitsu back and forth like the attempts him to submit Cron those are hard to catch because Cron is very skilled to defend Is he good at defending leg locks Crone?

[1194] Yes yes but still the opportunity was raised based on his desire to act.

[1195] So we force him to act.

[1196] He gave what we want, and cron catch precisely and sharp and was over.

[1197] Every morning, well, every time I work out and go to the gym, I warm up on the stair master, and I just go, ADCC, Marcelo Garcia, or whoever.

[1198] And I just want to warm up and watch people do Jiu -Jitsu at a high level, and that just gets my blood boiling.

[1199] And I just want to go lift weights, right?

[1200] So I'm watching Marcello and Crone And man, recently And I've watched it Yeah And I haven't watched it in a while But man, I'm so used to Marcello just going through everybody Marcello just crushes He is unbelievable What he does People go to his gym He's like hey, you can come to my gym I'll roll with you But we're going to videotape it And we're going to put it on the internet Deal And they're like everyone that goes There's like Oh man here they're like They're walking into the the slaughterhouse right he puts on everyone's going to see the role so that's and he's he just crushes everybody big dudes and then for him when when he went against crone he passed crone's guard for a couple seconds but then after that initial he was a double leg drag and he jumped and then crone's ability to recover full guard is unlike anybody i've ever seen you rarely see full guard in Abu Dhabi.

[1201] People stay away from full guard, but Crone will force you need force Marcelo Garcia and Crone into full guard and Marcelo was having a hard time and then he broke, he finally broke open his full guard, then he tried to pass again and then he's back in full guard again and then Grotene.

[1202] Crone put him in a guillotine and the word is that Marcelo I think admits this.

[1203] He went out like he went out He told me. He said, oh, it was tough, you know, I almost pass out and then But Crone, because he was going in the end of the mat, the first, like the round, he was trying to save himself for the next round.

[1204] So he put pressure, and then he kind of said, Dad, I kind of just try to hold instead, keep him putting all my power.

[1205] So, and then, I mean, nothing happened, and the guy kind of survived, and he kind of won.

[1206] He won on a takedown.

[1207] So he could have, he could have put him to sleep there.

[1208] It's possible.

[1209] I mean, you know, but...

[1210] That's always the thing with the guillotine, knowing whether or not to exert all your energy, and if you do, you gas your arms out.

[1211] Yes, but Crohn is specializing the guillotine.

[1212] I mean, he coming in the next, for the last Abu Dhabi, prepared to face Marcelo again.

[1213] And he's escalating, his progress is being very, very, you know, progressive.

[1214] And he was ready, but unfortunately, Marcelo didn't come, and he made great fights.

[1215] And he displayed, like, especially the guillotine against Antonio, Otavio, what's great in the final.

[1216] The guy just, when he jumps, and I feel like you guys talking about this fight and about the chicken and stuff.

[1217] I didn't believe it at first.

[1218] I didn't believe it.

[1219] I'm like, someone said it.

[1220] Well, explain it to people who didn't hear our other podcast.

[1221] Well, Crone went in 2013 Abu Dhabi.

[1222] Crone showed up and did with what only, I think maybe, Jean -Joc did it, Marcelo did it, And I think maybe Hodge of Gracie did it.

[1223] I'm not sure that he went in and submitted all four of his opponents.

[1224] And he submitted Gary Tonin in an amazing match where Gary almost won.

[1225] Best fight I saw.

[1226] Yeah, it was incredible.

[1227] I was losing my mind watching that one.

[1228] And he submitted J .T. Torres, who's a beast.

[1229] J .T. Torres is so good.

[1230] And he got him from the guard.

[1231] He just had the overhook, and he just flipped his leg over his face and just held on to the overhook.

[1232] So it was kind of like one of those overhook arm bars.

[1233] and then he beat who did he beat first I don't know but the first one was like I'm not sure his name but he put a guy to sleep and then get this Gary guy in the first day Yeah and then JT tours And the second day in JT and then Otavio And then Otavio in the finals Well the match we're talking about And me and Joe talked about this And they made a Stuart Cooper Made a film on it But Otevio Susa His strategy was to Not be on his back stay on top and just kind of maybe get a takedown late, you know, because that's a, in that rule format or that points format in Abu Dhabi, that happens a lot.

[1234] People will just wrestle and wrestle and wrestle.

[1235] And he wasn't engaging.

[1236] And Crone is like, just like Hickson's saying, he's like Marcello.

[1237] He's like, he goes after it.

[1238] He's going to go 100 percent.

[1239] All he wants is the submission.

[1240] That's Crone.

[1241] He's a special grappler, special fighter.

[1242] All he wants is the submission.

[1243] and Otevia wasn't really engaging and as a father No no no not as a fire As a coach I saw his coach As the fight progress The guy saying to Otav in Portuguese Okay man that's it That's all you want Okay keep going It's perfect perfect perfect And I see a guy just running from the fight And making a strategy Which kind of upset me completely I mean there's nothing perfect on that In my sense but in this strategic aspect of his doing so I have to counter in somehow and then I start to make try to suggest the referee he was escaping he was trying to avoid the fight because it's not positive points in the first 10 minutes but it's negative points so I was hoping for a negative point with all this stalling so and then I start to say referee the guy starts moving like you know he don't want to engage he's just moving back like a chicken and as the thing starts to boil I start to say hey man this guy like a chicken pock pock pock pock and the whole stadium is just quiet watching the fight is just this noise kind of overwhelming everything it's like throwing a chicken inside and for a jiu -jitsu competitor first of all I mean I know you're right here but I just have to be honest everybody says you're the greatest ever you're the greatest jiu jihitsu competitor of all time so you're here the greatest Jiu -Jitsu representative of all time.

[1244] Your son is competing.

[1245] This guy has to respect you and admire you and you're going, bach, bach, bach, bach, bach, bach, bach, and the whole crowd is listening to this.

[1246] I mean, that's a lot of pressure on that guy.

[1247] That had to get into his head.

[1248] Yeah, because...

[1249] Because I was suggesting the referee, he needs to be punished.

[1250] Yeah.

[1251] And eventually, like with 90 minutes or so, he got minus points.

[1252] And that's what's exactly what generates him to say, okay, Now I'm running behind, so I have to make it happen.

[1253] And as we're talking afterwards with Crone, Crone said, Dad, when I started talking like a chicken, I felt like he won't explode.

[1254] I don't want to make a mistake wasting the opportunity, but I know he will come, so I was just ready for it.

[1255] So we kind of working together, you know, like it was a father and son work.

[1256] And it was perfect.

[1257] He shot right in.

[1258] And then he's already waiting before Poon is over.

[1259] Go home.

[1260] It's ice cream.

[1261] That's the one thing, that's the one thing, Jean -Jocon.

[1262] would tell me because John Jock obviously trained me for Meta Morris and we were talk about Cron and John Jock said I asked John Jock what is Crone's best technique he goes man that guillotine he wraps his arms around your head he's got an incredible squeeze yes the guillotine used to be a strong man move like I used to think like even the arm in guillotine like that's a strong man I never got into guillotine but over the last 10 15 years they've gotten so technical oh man I tell you I tell you, I'm always being trying to specialize myself in all the submissions.

[1263] And I have my guillotine, which, you know, give me some victories.

[1264] But, you know.

[1265] And then one time I was talking with Crone, and it's not even on the mat, was in the locker room.

[1266] And then I said, yeah, but guillotine, Crone, the guy can escape.

[1267] Said, no, that doesn't escape.

[1268] I said, no, he said, no. He said, no, if I get it, I said, oh, come on, grab me. Man, I tap, you know.

[1269] And then I have to rethink my whole strategy said, yeah, this guy has, you know, he's already have something to tell me. There's just levels of squeeze, right?

[1270] It's a level of grip, it's a level of grip.

[1271] The way you hold, it's all technical.

[1272] And the regular escape doesn't work anymore.

[1273] So, of course, we have escape for Crohn's guillotine.

[1274] But it's a different than I was visualizing.

[1275] So I have to relearn how to escape from average guillotines and Crohn's guillotine, so it has to be special to the defense.

[1276] Those levels, the technical levels, are lost on a lot of people that are just watching it.

[1277] The difference is subtle variations.

[1278] That is the essence of jiu -jitsu, right?

[1279] I believe the biggest aspect of jiu -jitsu is invisible.

[1280] I preach the invisible jiu -jitsu because it's invisible because you see it, but you don't see it.

[1281] You see the same guard position, you see the same mount, but you have to feel.

[1282] feel it.

[1283] You know?

[1284] I base my jiu -jitsu and how you feel, not what you see.

[1285] And that's totally different.

[1286] When I go in seminars and stuff, the guy feel different.

[1287] They say, wow, man, I've been doing this all my life and I never felt this way.

[1288] So, so good.

[1289] Okay.

[1290] So much leverage.

[1291] So based on the weight distribution, based on the sense of leverage and all this can change.

[1292] The same position you see in a picture cannot be worth it or can be very much effective depending how the grip, the angle, the elbow, the weight.

[1293] So it's amazing how the invisible jiu -jitsu is what really supports the, you know, it's not what you learn superficially.

[1294] What do you think about Marcelo Garcia's variation of the guillotine?

[1295] Some people call it a high elbow guillotine and a lot of people call it the marcellotine where it's, he doesn't believe it like this.

[1296] Yeah.

[1297] What have you, is that part of something that you've taught?

[1298] Is that new to you?

[1299] No, it's not new.

[1300] It's an option.

[1301] What's developed by him, like, he's, he's the master on this, not.

[1302] So you see different submissions from the break, from the, so it's adaptations, you know.

[1303] If you focus and you know what's coming and you have defenses.

[1304] I don't believe a guillotine is effective regardless, no. Yeah.

[1305] All the guillotine is you can defend, but you have to be precise.

[1306] If you make one mistake, if you're thinking about defense one, and the guy, you're coming with a little twist, the defense one is not going to work, and if you think about change for the second, you're already tapping or you already sleeping.

[1307] So you have to be precise on the adaptation of each.

[1308] So now, if Crone gets me, I know exactly what I have to go.

[1309] If I delay two seconds, then it's going to be...

[1310] It's over.

[1311] Yeah, it's over.

[1312] And that goes for any technique.

[1313] There's so many different ways to squeeze the neck.

[1314] I would, off the top of my head, you know, including all the arm in chokes, like the dars and the Japanese necktie, the arm in guillotine, the different grips, all these different neck cranks.

[1315] There's got to be just on the neck.

[1316] Those inverse ones, like how you call the neck breaks from, like the one, the twister.

[1317] Yes, yes.

[1318] That was not really a choke, though.

[1319] That's a straight neck crank.

[1320] Yeah, but there's so many ways, just no ghee.

[1321] There's so many ways to put someone to sleep.

[1322] I would say there's 15 to 20 different ways.

[1323] No ghee.

[1324] to squeeze a neck.

[1325] Everyone's got their own different styles.

[1326] Did you get into, because one of the most popular chokes over the last 10, 15 years in the no -gee grappling scene is the dars.

[1327] Are you familiar with...

[1328] What is the d 'orse?

[1329] Like, Bravo choke?

[1330] It's the bravo choke.

[1331] It's a squeeze, but it's the arms in.

[1332] No, no, from top side.

[1333] Oh, like...

[1334] Yes.

[1335] I'm in half guard.

[1336] Like, in half guard, and you come in, it's like you have an overhook and you come and you squeeze that one.

[1337] That's become just one of the most basic standard chokes and it came sort of from a wrestling three -quarter Nelson technique that was used to flip people over and then I think it was Dave Terrell showed it to Joe Darcy and then everyone Mark Lehman started calling it Joe Dars because he learned from Joe Dars but he he actually I don't know John Dana heard there's a whole story but the name stuck to Dars was that something that you guys were doing back in the 70s and 80s?

[1338] That's more of a newer church.

[1339] Yeah, yeah, it's more newer.

[1340] And the people...

[1341] Fascinating.

[1342] The origins of the triangle, like just the leg triangle, there's so many different theories on how that got injected into helio style.

[1343] Do you know the origins of a triangle, or is it just an old judo technique?

[1344] No, I mean, if you go in an old book techniques, you're going to see all the submissions, you know, like the application of triangles in my life start to come by by understanding the concept and seeing like longer guys like macarang guys with long legs like Macaon who is that carous Marcio Maccaron is like old school guy old school I saw guys doing this and I start to apply you know I start to use my legs are not too long so I have to pick the perfect positions to do but I start to get you know familiar with and I mean it's just You know, it's hard to say where I come from, but I have my open mind, like the Eric Paulson situation with the new...

[1345] I always have an open mind to accept, to embrace things are functional, you know, and discard everything which I don't like it.

[1346] You know, it's not about theory, it's not about, it's about effective and it's about results, it's about feel comfort about there.

[1347] So anything I see, no matter if it's from Bruce Lee, or from any wrestler, or a catch -catch -catch gun, or if I see and I like, and I'm going to go and experiment immediately because I just add to my arsenal, you know, that's the concept which leads to development, to progression and to success.

[1348] It's one of the beautiful things about Jiu -Jitsu is that it's constantly growing and evolving.

[1349] There's always new techniques.

[1350] The idea that, you know, the Darstoke wasn't around when you were competing, and now it's a staple, a mainstay.

[1351] It's fascinating.

[1352] I'd have to bring this up.

[1353] Because if I didn't bring this up, everybody online would go crazy.

[1354] There's a videotape of when Yoji Anjo showed up at your dojo.

[1355] Yes.

[1356] And you, you know.

[1357] You saw it?

[1358] No. No, I've never seen it.

[1359] No, you didn't.

[1360] Let's make the next barbecue in my house, definitely you're going to see it.

[1361] Let's plan it.

[1362] The world wants to see it down.

[1363] Yeah, the world wants to see it.

[1364] Will you release it to the world?

[1365] Probably, eventually.

[1366] Oh, man. Oh, you got to release it.

[1367] That's one of the number one things.

[1368] people are asking for.

[1369] When I hit a couple of million people on my site, I may do that.

[1370] We'll do it.

[1371] I'll make that happen.

[1372] I will make that happen.

[1373] Tell us that story.

[1374] How did that story come about?

[1375] Oh, just when I finished the Valitude 95 was a legit eight -man tournament and I won.

[1376] You start the, like the WWF in Japan, was very strong with pro wrestling like big magazines like a huge japanese love pro wrestling so and then based on that kind of exposure of this new event the champion of the wrestling association one of the champions of the UFO called takada start to talk oh i like to fight a hit they ask him and they start to talking like all the pro wrestlers talk i got to kick his ass this and that start to talking a lot a gossip.

[1377] And at this point, I'm back to LA.

[1378] Maybe after two or three months of this kind of talking around my name forever, some guy, some, some one of the friends I have in Japan, they come and said, Mr. Grace, they're talking a lot about you and you should have an official answer for that.

[1379] You know, you cannot just let, because people start thinking, you're afraid, so you have to have official answer.

[1380] So I said, okay.

[1381] So I make a letter stating, um, I will never will fight on their ring because they're not legit.

[1382] They fix fights so that's against my if he want to come and fight in my event like not mine but the event I fought in Japan Open he will all come to come and we want to face each other for sure if in other case we can fight even on the street but I'm not there to fight on his event because that's who will depredize my real fight status, real fighter status so with this being said, maybe a few weeks later, Takada went out of the gossip, and then Anjou show up in the magazine, he started saying, he will come into L .A. to beat me up.

[1383] He will do this because he said, oh, he's going to fight for free, so I'm going to dare to fight to kick.

[1384] So, and then I come and said, Mr. Anjou say he's coming, he said, this.

[1385] I said, man, I cannot lost my sleep based on just speculations you know he said when I come no he didn't say okay so I'm gonna keep my life and if he show up okay he show up so past maybe couple of weeks or so even more one day I was in home in the morning my assistant at the school call and said Hickson some guys here some Japanese guys are here waiting for you want to talk to you and immediately I figured out could be that situation so I put my camera in my hand Hawkson wants to come in with me he was about 11 years old um i was going back driving my car taping my hands because i know gonna be a so i was putting tape in my hands as i driving in a freeway when i arrived i saw a van full up with photographers outside you know like i passing through my parking lot and i saw full of Japanese with cameras, full of reporters inside.

[1386] So I came, went through.

[1387] When I got in the school, I saw a huge, like a tall Japanese guy very well -dressed and a lady.

[1388] And I immediately, hey, how are you?

[1389] Oh, Mr. Gracie, I'm the president of the UFO Association.

[1390] I come here to officially invite you to participate over a fight in Japan.

[1391] I said, man, you crazy?

[1392] I told you I don't want to fight in Japan and under your association.

[1393] And then once I, when I kind of deflect the direction.

[1394] He said, yeah, but you also said you fight for free, for your owner.

[1395] I said, yes.

[1396] I'm here to fight.

[1397] I expect fighting, but you come into negotiation.

[1398] No, no, no, but the fighter is outside.

[1399] Can he come?

[1400] I said, yes, he can come.

[1401] So I tell my student to say, hey, you stay on the door, let the lady with the fighter come in, but don't let the reporters come in.

[1402] Block everybody outside.

[1403] I didn't know what's going to happen.

[1404] I don't want to press.

[1405] So as Anjou came in With like an ugly face and attitude and stuff I immediately ask my instructor said Limon grab the waiver and tell him to sign It's like if I get hurt whatever Those waivers So he looked the waiver With an ugly face and then spoke with his guy in Japanese And then the Japanese guy said Mr. Gracie You mean if he don't sign him you don't fight immediately I felt like if I say yeah he has to sign they may leave and they're gonna come in with all the excuse oh he chicken out whatever I immediately said no forget the paper if you come into fight let's fight forget the bureaucracy let's let's make something here more simple so in then he's he coming to the match to the ring I you know and we start to fighting Immediately, I felt his intention to hit me. Immediately I clinch, put him on the ground, and start to punch.

[1406] He turned back.

[1407] But different than a normal event where just put him to sleep or whatever.

[1408] In that particular case, I have to display, showcase his punishment.

[1409] So I was not happy just to put him to sleep.

[1410] So I start to hit him with the elbow, expect him to turn.

[1411] Eventually he turned.

[1412] and I punch him in the face until broke his nose and make all bleed all cut cut up and at that point when he felt I felt like he was just smash enough he turned again backwards and I put him to sleep and then I let him sleeping on his own blood and then I said to the press said okay now let them in so when the press come in saw him passing out waking up with the guy trying to hide his face from the pictures and the guy's all dizzy waking up all blood you know a big big mass of blood in the floor and stuff and the crowd my students kind of lift me up i kind of my my t -shirt is all bloody and i kind of hang on the on the wall like a trophy and stuff and we all yelling so the guy stood up and and left and then like three or four days later and you come back to me and at my school I was teaching he coming with a package and said oh I like to talk he was still like all bruise and stuff said yeah I like to apologize and I like to give you this as a gift and he gave me a samurai helmet and then he left to Japan and when he got there he said to the crowd he was jump you know I was jumped the guys jumped me out because the press didn't saw and then I get my my assistant my Japanese guy who's working with me and the Valitude 95.

[1413] And I said, listen, Yuri, you take this tape, you go to Japan, make a press conference, display, don't make one copy, nothing.

[1414] Make sure, no, no, please.

[1415] So go there, make, show the press and come back and bring this back.

[1416] Okay, so he went, make the press conference.

[1417] And then my reputation, when they saw was like a fair fight and what happened, And my reputation went to the roof.

[1418] And, you know, it's just a big step for me, like in the publicity, because I capitalizing all the wrestling publicity, which is national in Japan.

[1419] So, and then my next fight eventually was with Takada.

[1420] He accepted the fight and make an official fight, and then we create the pride.

[1421] I help in the formulation of the rules.

[1422] A lot of folks don't know that.

[1423] You were a big part of the original pride.

[1424] Yeah, they asked me if I want to fight Takada, and for that, they want to create a new event.

[1425] I said, yes, I fight him.

[1426] And then we discussed numbers.

[1427] And in order to make a good rule, I help in the rules because, you know, cannot be.

[1428] So I introduced the gloves and the mixed martial arts.

[1429] And the first body said, yeah, we have to put gloves because without glove can be too bloody.

[1430] We have to cut head butts and stuff.

[1431] So I make like a draw of the backbone of what could be.

[1432] And then from that, they start the pride.

[1433] I fought the Pride 1, the Pride 4, and then the Pride becomes, like, huge in Japan.

[1434] And then because they have a little involvement with the Yakuza, the sponsors, they have Fuji TV, like, pull it off, and they're getting problems to the payroll, which is huge.

[1435] They have maybe 50 top athletes making a lot of money, so they could not handle.

[1436] And then UFC come and take over and get all the footage and the fighters.

[1437] Now it brings to a next level.

[1438] They took a huge bath because UFC paid $65 million for pride, and all the contracts were fake.

[1439] Yeah.

[1440] They were all void.

[1441] They were invalid, rather.

[1442] None of them were legal.

[1443] So I didn't know that.

[1444] So USC had the worst of it.

[1445] They had way the worst of it.

[1446] They tried to sue Japan or they tried to sue the organization.

[1447] It's kind of funny.

[1448] This is how crafty they were.

[1449] While the UFC purchased pride, the people that were running pride were starting another organization while they were working for the UFC.

[1450] So they were working for the UFC running the pride offices for the UFC in Japan, but then they were running their other organizations.

[1451] Oh, fleeting interests.

[1452] We don't know with disregard of everything.

[1453] This is a Japanese style.

[1454] There's a classic match or not a match fight that's on video.

[1455] It might be on YouTube with Hugo Duarte, old Luta Lvra guy on the beach where you guys are fighting.

[1456] Is that on YouTube?

[1457] Oh, yeah, yeah, parts of it.

[1458] It's hard to see the whole thing because it's a famous.

[1459] It's a famous fight on the beach.

[1460] You know who was holding the camera at that day?

[1461] Who?

[1462] Was high in my cousin with 12 years old.

[1463] And Hawkson was seven.

[1464] Jean -Jacques was there.

[1465] There's John Jacques running.

[1466] Yeah.

[1467] So what was the reasoning behind that fight?

[1468] How did that go down?

[1469] Okay, let's make this the last day, all right, guys.

[1470] Because if not, you're going to talk forever here about things from the past.

[1471] I love to talk about present.

[1472] But anyway, it was a great time because.

[1473] At this point, Marco Rua was just finishing fight Fernando Pinduca in an event.

[1474] After my second fight of Zulu in Rio, the Jiu -Jitsu community has a little friction with the Lutalivri community.

[1475] So they set up a fight between was Marcelo Bering against Fabio Molina, Renan, against Ogenio Tadeo, and then Pinduca against Marco Rua.

[1476] And they draw.

[1477] And after that draw, Marco Rua creates a good status of being a great fighter as it is.

[1478] He's a good, you know, tough guy.

[1479] And the gossip starts to become like, oh, and then people may ask him, what about Hickson?

[1480] So, and the kind of small word is a position where Marco Rua is as willing to fight me. And I also, of course, willing to fight him, but I don't want to wait or give him the reputation where I challenge him.

[1481] It's not the case.

[1482] He was just the first, I was already famous, established.

[1483] He was already a coming up, like, just make a good fight.

[1484] So to make things more simple, my father, myself, Marcelo and Sergio, my best friend, we went to his school in a day and a night time.

[1485] He had maybe 50 guys training, all without gear, they're all tough, they all have a lot of pumping, a lot of iron.

[1486] So they're all big guys, you know.

[1487] So I went to his place, he said, who was?

[1488] I like to talk to you.

[1489] So he came in to me and said, hey, man, I heard you show him desire to fight me. So I like to fight you any time you want, regardless.

[1490] Let's do it.

[1491] If you want to do now, you can do tomorrow, whatever.

[1492] And he looked at me and said, yeah, it's not like that.

[1493] if you challenge me I may accept but I have I need four months to train I said man you crazy you think like I use other names but it's like you think the Lakers will challenge a college basketball team from from from Cucamonga fuck man what are you talking about you come here to challenge I'm not I come here to because I heard you planning to fight and if you fire I'm here you want to fight or not so when this conversation start to become a little, my dad coming as a mediator and said, hey, guys, don't want to discuss it.

[1494] Let's make a list.

[1495] If somebody wants to fight, Higgs, let's make a list.

[1496] And then eventually, you guys can fight.

[1497] And then Hugo from the back, yeah, you can put my name on that list.

[1498] And I, first time I saw Hugo in my life, and I look at him and said, yeah, man, you tell me, this is not a, because it has a game, a gambling in Brazil, like a popular game, not official but unofficial game called Jogo do Bishu means game of the animals.

[1499] You put a name, a number like 24 is the deer.

[1500] So a guy put a $1 and if he wins he gets maybe $50.

[1501] Something very popular in every corner has this kind of underground game.

[1502] And I said to him, this is not a game of animals, man. This is just a serious business.

[1503] You don't have to put your name in the list.

[1504] If you want to fight, let's fight right now.

[1505] And the guy kind of get a little confused, So nothing happened, and then we decided to leave, so we left.

[1506] After that, the whole gospel, every corner, I heard Hugo was training to fight you.

[1507] Hugo, Hugo, Hugo, Hugo, start to talk about Hugo, Hugo, Hugo, and I felt like this has to have an end, you know.

[1508] Another guy I could not challenge officially because he's a nobody, but he's a guy if I just disregard, it's something who's going to be against me too, because I know he has.

[1509] the potential.

[1510] He's a fighter.

[1511] He just don't have the name, but he's a legit and tough guy.

[1512] So, based on that, I could not just ignore, and I could not challenge him officially.

[1513] So I have to do something in between which fight him on the street.

[1514] So we decide to find a, okay, let's make a profile where he goes, what beach he goes, where he walks about.

[1515] So we decide, oh, he goes this beach was a very popular beach in Rio.

[1516] Every Sunday, every Saturday, Sunday he's there with the, okay, so next Sunday we're going to be there, Saturday.

[1517] So I was at this point separate from my relationship.

[1518] I was living like a single in Rio, and that's very hard to do because a lot of options.

[1519] So I was not concerned about the fight at all.

[1520] I was no sleep on the Monday, Tuesday, like just go and party a lot, wake up on Wednesday kind of afternoon, walk on the street, close to my neighborhood.

[1521] And then I saw a friend of mine who's always in the gossip, said, hey, and as I live in home, I said, I think I'm going to postpone Hugo's fight for the following week.

[1522] I don't think it's going to be a good idea because, man, I'm just too much party.

[1523] When I get on the street, man, the first time I see, the first guy I saw, it was this my friend, Bauru, who's just coming and said, man, you should see, all everybody's prepared, everybody talking about, the fight will be great, they're all waiting, they all will be there.

[1524] And I say, oh my God, no postponement anymore.

[1525] I have to go regardless.

[1526] So as I approach the weekend, I try to just recover, sleep, eat well, but still like not enough.

[1527] Anyway, Saturday morning, we all gathering in the Gracie Barra Academy, which is close to the neighborhood, and we're gathering like the students, because we have to have a team to be there, you know, to hold and whatever.

[1528] So it's about 50 to 60 guys there, and we all kind of strategizing, okay, you guys make this and that.

[1529] And then my son with seven years old, all pumping up.

[1530] point, everybody quiet.

[1531] He's just jumping in the middle and said, yeah.

[1532] And if his son will be there, I'm going to kick his ass.

[1533] I said, good.

[1534] Everybody left.

[1535] So he's already with the DNA of battle, so it was funny.

[1536] And then eventually about 10 o 'clock or so he arrived on the beach.

[1537] The guy, the messenger, come, he said, hey, they are there.

[1538] So he went to the beach.

[1539] And as we approach the beach, I have the camera.

[1540] Nobody wants to hold the camera.

[1541] No, no, no, no, not me. So I give the camera to Hyann, which is 12 years old at the time and he could not get through.

[1542] It's just yelling everybody.

[1543] He could not get through to film the fight.

[1544] The film was not even important.

[1545] So we engage was at the moment the first engaged after I slapped him.

[1546] We engaged very quickly and then we start to hassle on the sand.

[1547] He fall on top of me. I was kind of having a hard time from the beginning and then I was able to sweep, mounted.

[1548] And he escaped from the mount one more time because The sand gave me no base, so I kind of massed my knee on the sand, so he come up.

[1549] I have to sweep him again, mounted again.

[1550] At that time, much more concern of keeping the position.

[1551] So I grabbed his hand from the back, and I start to punching him.

[1552] Like a fun -knocking.

[1553] Yeah, exactly like flunker.

[1554] I started to punch him, punching elbow, punch, punch, punch, punch, punch, and then in one point I was dead, dead tired.

[1555] I asked him, you want to give up?

[1556] He said, you have to kill me. I said, okay, man, boom, boom, boom, keep punching, punching, punching.

[1557] And then immediately afterwards, he said, okay, stop, stop, stop.

[1558] So I immediately stopped.

[1559] We went to the water, dive on the water, come back.

[1560] As we come back, he said, yeah, I'm not happy.

[1561] I said, okay, let's do it again.

[1562] He said, no, no, not today.

[1563] And I said, okay, man, that's okay.

[1564] And then Henzo started to fighting Marcelo Mendez at the beach.

[1565] They start to get it, then it doesn't have the end.

[1566] It's just kind of mess it up a little bit.

[1567] hands of confront with the guy, but it was not an end fight.

[1568] Anyway, I put stitches on my hand and back like all swallow.

[1569] My hands all swallowed.

[1570] So I went back home, training, resting, giving my life.

[1571] One week later, you know, I was in a part, a friend of mine's apartment, you know, resting tired from some little fun.

[1572] I was laid down, you know, in my underwear, my hair.

[1573] I have long head at the time, but all messy.

[1574] A guy, my student of mine, just stopping on the street, on the bike, and said, Hey, Exxon, Hickson, they invite in the school.

[1575] He's invading, it's a big invasion.

[1576] I said, I kind of wake up and run down.

[1577] And when he saw me running in underwear, you go like that.

[1578] I said, hey, man, I jump in the bike, let's go.

[1579] So I went to my school.

[1580] In your underwear.

[1581] In my underwear with the hair all crazy.

[1582] This needs to be animated, by the way, right?

[1583] It will be.

[1584] And as I approach the school, because they come in from a different neighborhood walking, and one of the guys like Eugenio Tadeo was a black guy who lives in a ghetto, as they approach, they come walking maybe five, three or four miles, you know, something like that, a different neighborhood, they come in like from the street, let's break it on.

[1585] So as they come in, like, it's not only fighters, there's bad guys, guys with like, all the eyes, I mean, only the uncovered eyes with guns, with knives, with bottle brake.

[1586] So it's a lot of convulsions, a lot of energy, bad energy, not coming from a real fight situation, but it's more like a street dangerous.

[1587] So as I approach and I coming through the crowd, which is already controlling maybe two -thirds of the street, which passing cars, just could not pass in cars anymore.

[1588] It's just like just the car passing at a very fine line.

[1589] There's a big crowd in front of the school.

[1590] So I went through with the bike.

[1591] When I coming up to the school, he's already coming down with my father, the Nilsson, which is his instructor, other guys, they're coming down.

[1592] And we kind of crush each other in the middle of the stairs.

[1593] I said, okay, man, let's go down, let's talk.

[1594] So we went down to the parking lot.

[1595] And I crowded, maybe 20 guys from my school.

[1596] one guy has a weapon but the other guys maybe five or six, ten guns and knife, I mean, it's a bad bad weather, you know?

[1597] So before I start the fight, I said Hugo, I like to talk to you.

[1598] Come over, let's talk, let's walk to the backyard here.

[1599] So my father, myself, the Newson, Hoyler, and the Eugenio Tadeo, we kind of move away from the crowd to like a backyard and I said, man, I want to talk to you something very important.

[1600] listen, I fought to you last week as a man, and I come here and I respect you as a fighter to challenge me to rematch.

[1601] So all this is cool, regardless who win, who lost.

[1602] But if somebody touch the fight before the fight is over, because you bring here a lot of people without no martial arts code.

[1603] So if somebody touch the fight before it's over, I guarantee you, man, you wake up on the ditch.

[1604] And he said, no, no, it's a man. He said, no, it's a man. man to man, this is a honor, things, okay, let's go back, let's talk finished bush.

[1605] So we went back to the crowd.

[1606] They make a arena like people make a circle and was on the concrete.

[1607] And I felt, when we start, I felt like his mentor or whatever should pose to say to him, hey man, the first fight last week, you engage too quickly, you give the grappling you should punch him in the field.

[1608] So I, felt a completely different animal because he was already trying to buy his approach, his position, the way he moves, I felt like he wants to punch me, different than was before.

[1609] And I kind of make myself like a variable.

[1610] I kind of play dummy, you know, I play kind of such.

[1611] And he came and punch me right there.

[1612] I deflected very quick, grab him around the waist, like high, make a little hip movement and put him horizontal and throw him on the concrete.

[1613] so he fell flat on the concrete I tried to mount he escaped I move like to the other side and mount again and I end up by mounting on him like with 15 maybe 20 seconds I mounted on him I punch he covered up and I could not punch anymore so I get his every tank and bang his head against the concrete few times you know pown -pong he kind of bang the head on the floor and then he softed up a little bit I give him a couple of punches he kind of quit him immediately.

[1614] Stop, stop, stop.

[1615] For me, it was not exactly the well -done job because it was just too quick, and he quit very quickly.

[1616] So I want to do something else, but the crowd was already trying to, it's too much.

[1617] I said, if I insist here after his arcs ask for mercy, can jeopardize the whole thing.

[1618] So even though I was not happy, I stood up, and he stood up, and he said, yeah man I'm happy I'm satisfied now you really demand shake your hands said yeah man you have a very valuable guy too very strong keep training you can be good so we kind of end up our our difference yes so once we out of that hoiler start to uh hoiler start to fight the eugenio tadeo in the same because they already having a little so they start to fighting at that point the police come in a guy with a gun machine just because nobody would listen the position, nothing.

[1619] So he kind of make a shooting the roof.

[1620] The bullets come up and bringing some ricochet down and somebody get hit.

[1621] And then he comes, he's a very small guy with a cigarette.

[1622] He said, I want to see who's the tough guy now.

[1623] So it's a very small guy with a gun machine.

[1624] So everybody, like, quiet.

[1625] So, and then I talk with the news, said, hey, man, the fight is just started here with Hoyer.

[1626] Has to go next week.

[1627] We're going to set up something that's not end yet.

[1628] said, yeah, so we set up for a different day.

[1629] Then it's over for me, and Hugo, we kind of end up with a respectful, honorable way, and that's pretty much it.

[1630] That's a great story.

[1631] So no more old stories, that's it?

[1632] I can hear those all night.

[1633] We can go forever here, man. What's wrong with that?

[1634] Some guys, you know, this is the biggest response ever on Twitter for a guest.

[1635] Like, I don't know about your Twitter, but my Twitter, people are going nuts that you're doing the podcast.

[1636] People are losing their minds.

[1637] And they've been going nuts.

[1638] Ever since the Yoji Angelo tape, they're screaming.

[1639] Please release the tape.

[1640] Please release the tape.

[1641] Will you release it?

[1642] Yeah, let's do that.

[1643] Okay.

[1644] Let's keep the couple of million people in the site.

[1645] Okay.

[1646] We'll do our best to get as many people on the site.

[1647] So what are you sending people?

[1648] What's the site?

[1649] What's the address?

[1650] JJGF .com.

[1651] Jiu Jitsu Global Federation .com.

[1652] So just the initial.

[1653] JJGF .com.

[1654] It's also.

[1655] set up right now.

[1656] So I wanted to ask you something about what's going on today in MMA.

[1657] There's like Nick Diaz and there's been a bunch of guys that have been suspended and fine for having cannabis in their system.

[1658] And there's big controversy because in a lot of states, now it's 23 states in the United States where it's legal now.

[1659] So how do you feel about banning cannabis as a performance enhancer?

[1660] Do you think, I mean, what do you think about that?

[1661] I mean, I think, you know, we are, I mean, since the beginning of the times, drugs are always involved with us.

[1662] Not just drugs for party drugs or, but we're talking about painketers, we're talking about coffee, we're talking about alcohol, we're talking about, I mean, teas and herbs.

[1663] So we all accustomed to use medicines and drugs to enhance, to diminish, to calm, to, to, so this is, is there.

[1664] You know, I think that kind of judgment goes from person to person.

[1665] You know, some people can have a little bit of some drug and get a reaction which can make him crazy or can make him addicted or can make him.

[1666] So the chemical in the brain can respond differently.

[1667] Yes.

[1668] For some people, cannabis is a medicine as they play.

[1669] For the others, can be a stimulant or can be a below, I mean, low yourself, team becomes bipolar.

[1670] If you smoke, you can be, I mean, I mean, you don't know.

[1671] It makes you more of what you are kind of, right?

[1672] It's hard to say what is.

[1673] So, in that point, I feel like we have to obey the law, you know.

[1674] And if some kind of drugs are forbidden by law for you to become a pro athlete, you have to obey that.

[1675] If you're in that career, what you do in your life, you know, it has to be respected, it has to be, you know, whatever.

[1676] But what's the rules for MMA.

[1677] I mean, I try to input in the Jiu -Jitsu, the anti -doppings, you know, because you see guys in the same way division, but one guy has ten times more endurance, ten times more power, ten times whatever.

[1678] So the guy is, you know, has addictive, like he has an extra enhancement.

[1679] So we have to balance this in order to make a fair sport.

[1680] How much the cannabis affect the athlete, I'm not sure, you know, but I know others like steroids or hormones, those are proving.

[1681] So whatever is being proved against use the cannabis for fighting for sports activities, if it's proved this kind of support of, I mean, the drug use can be in hasting, maybe we cut, I don't know, it's up to the law the doctors.

[1682] The real problem is they're testing people for something that's, stays in your body for a long time after it's psychoactive.

[1683] So if you took cannabis like a week before your fight, you're not going to be high when you're fighting, but it's still going to be in your system.

[1684] So you're still going to be penalized for something that has nothing to do with it.

[1685] What's the reason?

[1686] What's the reason why they took it?

[1687] Yeah, because you can have caffeine in your blood.

[1688] You can have like another kind of.

[1689] Why the cannabis has to be, because I don't think it's an enhancement of performance.

[1690] I think it's only control your emotional, give you kind of some kind of feeling of happiness sometimes give you like a little laziness you know i don't think that's who you help you as an athlete i think if you get if you get high before i event you're going to lose your sharpness you're going to so i don't think that's who you support so i don't see why they they have to bother in legalizing or forbidding or i don't know maybe it's just because of the law just because it's illegal and the reason why it's illegal has nothing to do with whether or not it's safe or dangerous it does nothing It's all political at this point.

[1691] But they did lower it right now.

[1692] It used to be that if you were in Colorado, let's say, where it's totally legal, it's not illegal there.

[1693] Anybody can smoke in Colorado.

[1694] You could buy it.

[1695] You can buy it in vending machines.

[1696] You have to stop a month before your fight because it's still going to show up in the test.

[1697] And you could lose the fight.

[1698] The fight's a no contest.

[1699] You get fined.

[1700] So now they're kind of changing it and adapting.

[1701] Now, I guess, according to the numbers, I think.

[1702] you can go, you have to stop two weeks before a fight or something like that.

[1703] Yeah, maybe eventually, depending on the car, they have to change the fight for Colorado.

[1704] Yeah.

[1705] So, or the training camp being in Colorado, so everything there is legal.

[1706] But they're definitely, how do you say, relaxing the rules?

[1707] You wouldn't say that, though.

[1708] What's the word?

[1709] They made it from, it used to be 50 nanograms per milliliter to 150, so it changed quite a bit.

[1710] 300 % increase.

[1711] So you have to have 300 % more marijuana in your system.

[1712] Well, that's a step in the right direction, I think.

[1713] Now, as far as performance enhancing, surfing is a serious sport that requires serious technique, lots of hours.

[1714] And generally, you hear that surfers will be under the influence of cannabis while they're surfing.

[1715] surfing, wouldn't it, if it makes your reflexes, some people believe that it makes, it dulls your reflexes, how can surfers be under the influence of cannabis and ride a 25 -foot wave?

[1716] No, the ocean, the ocean is an animal, you know, is alive, is in movement, it can be dangerous, has this kind of, you have to have the the perfect lecture, I mean, you have to have the path mapping the way out, the way in.

[1717] So it's a lot of strategy, is a lot of technique, and it's also, it's a lot of harmony between you as a surfer and the ocean.

[1718] So you have to find yourself comfortable.

[1719] You have to find yourself spiritually connect to the force.

[1720] And sometimes some of guys who, my friends, who kind of normally smoke some, they feel peaceful and they get in the harmony.

[1721] You know, it's not about strenuous, physical.

[1722] Only if you get caught in the bad situation against the bad rip court, you have to swim like a dog.

[1723] You're a good surfer.

[1724] You've served your whole life, right?

[1725] Yeah, I surf my whole life.

[1726] What's the biggest wave you've ever surf?

[1727] 30 feet?

[1728] No, man, no. I'm about 12 feet, solid.

[1729] It's dangerous.

[1730] Long board, shortboard?

[1731] Short board.

[1732] Okay.

[1733] I'm a shortboard.

[1734] I guess.

[1735] And Crohn surfs, too?

[1736] Crown surfs.

[1737] But he's just, he's more passionate about Jiu -Jitsu than surf.

[1738] How often do you surf still?

[1739] Oh, depends as well.

[1740] I have to check surf line today.

[1741] Oh, really?

[1742] So you might surf every day?

[1743] If the swell is good.

[1744] You love it that much, huh?

[1745] Oh, yeah, man. What is it about surfing?

[1746] It's about, for me, it's about the water, the ocean, because I believe in energy.

[1747] I believe in the ocean.

[1748] being the most, the most, the hugest electromagnetic pole in Earth, all the electricity coming from.

[1749] So as I go in the ocean, if I'm stressed, I get energy.

[1750] If I'm, you know, lazy, I get energy.

[1751] If I'm too tense, I get relaxed.

[1752] So it's an equalizer for me because I feel like the contact with the ocean, keep me in balance, keep me. So for me, it's not about the perfect wave.

[1753] It's about going to the ocean, make my routine.

[1754] make my exercise, breathing.

[1755] You know, I'm a tropical rat.

[1756] I'm born and raised in Rio, so I cannot stay away from the water.

[1757] It's just, you know, somehow the energy flow and how spiritually that's kind of helped empower me in a sense.

[1758] And you would say that physically, surfing does translate to jiu -jitsu as far as the balance, right?

[1759] Because you need incredible balance?

[1760] Not really.

[1761] I think it is, of course.

[1762] You stimulate your neuromuscular activity, in surfing and skate and jiu -jit but i think the most important thing in surfing is as you become under pressure you have to strategize you have to be in control of your emotions you have to be uh focus and and everything do right and if things go wrong you have to be find your comfortable zone in hell and that's the mindset is similar because the ocean is not your enemy but he's there to do his thing and he's very powerful so you have to find your mental your mindset to find comfortable in all this turmoil you know it's all you know it's if you get caught in the wrong position and if you get panic he's gone so you have to be calm same thing than fight you have to have like the focus the strategy and uh even when things with the problem rises you have to be in control what do you do with your time these days like What's a typical day for Hicks and Gracie?

[1763] Right now, I back to teach in Crohn's Place because I wanted to have him more dis -stress with how the academy goes.

[1764] So I pick two times a week to teach there, giving self -defense classes.

[1765] At this point, before that, I was doing seminars once a month, at the most twice every couple of months.

[1766] to make my living and also because I feel like the best things in life money cannot buy and I feel like the quality of my meals the way I eat the way my relationship my my sleep those are very very valuable assets you know plus the time I have to do things I love to do that's kind of when this is feel like when I feel like I'm everything so I feel like I'm happy enough to be my best at service because I always try to be at service, helping somebody with jujitsu, with knowledge, with nutrition, with breathing.

[1767] You know, it's not about the price, it's about the service.

[1768] You know, and then I put my head and said, yeah, I have a nice day.

[1769] I make a good speech with Joe Hogan.

[1770] I have a great talk with Ed Bravo.

[1771] It was a great day.

[1772] So somehow, in the purpose for the federation, so I always try to be positive, But I have no schedule fixed like I have to wake up, go to, no, because at this point, I create a lifestyle which make me feel good to engage in different elements like this federation now and having classes on Crohn's and be here to be full of energy, you know, because sometimes you don't notice, but based on your commitments, your obligation, you're becoming more.

[1773] like a robot and you lose the perspective of what you need to be at your best.

[1774] And if you lose that perspective, even though you still do in your routine, sometimes you just minus.

[1775] You're just 80, 70, 60 % of what you should be.

[1776] So you're not going to be the best husband.

[1777] You're not going to be the best father, the best employer, the best employee.

[1778] You just, you know, it's just so at this point I feel like I have to be at my best.

[1779] Physically, do my, if I feel like I have to stretch, I'm going to stretch, breathe, joke, have fun, listen, party, whatever, you know.

[1780] And then when I feel like, man, I'm so happy I could not eat.

[1781] So then I can go and do my service, you know, and, you know, because the window of life is smaller.

[1782] Now for me it becomes I don't have too much time.

[1783] So I don't waste time to do what people expect from me. I try to do things are really relevant to my soul.

[1784] Like this federation now, I, when I do.

[1785] dream, I don't dream small.

[1786] I dream like, I make like a very space for a huge, the biggest dream I can dream.

[1787] And I see that moment, you know, that level of need for the community and the level of position I have to be the reference for that shift in the direction of our culture and our knowledge.

[1788] I feel like I could not be more motivated, more happy to engage on this.

[1789] So, and that's always life is about.

[1790] It's just do your best and be excited to be motivated to the next day.

[1791] There's such a refreshing attitude, your attitude, your philosophy on life, because I think it's very easy and I've been, I've trapped myself in it sometimes where you concentrate too much on making money, concentrate too much on being ambitious, and you forget the quality of life.

[1792] Yes.

[1793] Your focus is almost entirely on your quality of life.

[1794] Yes, you know, because like I said, man, how much?

[1795] cost your motivation how much cost your friends how much cost your health how much cost your intelligence those things is priceless i mean if you take those of your life you take your motivation of your life can be bill gates can be the biggest so if you if you ask me if i want to have bill gates life i don't know i don't know him so it's not a base on his bank account he's based on how happy he is how horny he is how you know how how how motivated he is to wake up and do his think he don't look too horny i don't think he's horny so so that's a very essential thing which sometimes sleep through people's fingers and and the priorities and the daily you know in the the payments and so i put you in a role where uh i feel like um if you tell me in the past what's the courage what's the opposite of courage i want to say cowardness Because either you tough enough to challenge and to fight or to, or then you're a coward and you chicken out.

[1796] So that's, in the past, was like the opposite of courage.

[1797] It's very hard to measure this in those days.

[1798] And I believe the opposite of courage today is conformity.

[1799] You know, if people get conformed, oh, I don't like my wife the way I used to like, but I'm never going to divorce because I'm afraid to lose my house.

[1800] or the situation is so established so I don't like this job but I'm going to keep here because better than his so in other hands if you get caught on that kind of compromise to maintain because you're afraid to risk let's keep you like one step behind from you follow your heart follow your ambition if you're 18 years old you don't think twice the guy say hey let's go to Australia you think okay let's go boom but when you fifth you say Australia what are going to do there maybe I'm going to so it's different you know.

[1801] That's me. And that's kind of...

[1802] Am I getting paid or what?

[1803] Why are we going?

[1804] Yeah, so that's kind of pretty much where keep you from be at your best.

[1805] Because if you're willing to sacrifice, if you're willing to broke new challenges, if you're willing to...

[1806] You're in a stage of liveliness and excitement and unpredictability who make you feel like you in heaven.

[1807] You know?

[1808] Every time I was engaging in a compromise or a fight was something I thank you, like, I have my routines prior to fight.

[1809] One of them is at the day of my fight, I wake up and I thank you God to be alive and I acknowledge how perfect will be that day if I die today.

[1810] Say, fuck, my world was going to be a perfect day if I die.

[1811] Because I have, you know, I accomplished my thing.

[1812] I'm in my mission.

[1813] I represent in my family.

[1814] So I don't go there to tap.

[1815] I go there to die.

[1816] The guy has to kill me. I'm, I'm never going to tap.

[1817] But that's not a sport -like orientation.

[1818] This is a philosophical honor representation.

[1819] It's not something I teach.

[1820] No, you should not tap.

[1821] No, it's not like that.

[1822] It's about how I feel, how I feed my kids, how I follow my tradition.

[1823] So in engagement, I'm not going to be the one who's going to quit.

[1824] The guy have to kill me. My brother, he can throw the towel.

[1825] But for me, is unacceptable.

[1826] You know, I give up from my life.

[1827] So based on that kind of spiritual guidance, my life is very intense.

[1828] My life is very, I mean, directed to accomplish.

[1829] Give up is not an option.

[1830] You know, I can direct my focus.

[1831] I can give up from something to go somewhere else, but I never will give up from something because I feel like I cannot reach there.

[1832] I may say, okay, that's not for me. I go somewhere else.

[1833] if I still focus, I will take those falls, I will take those obstacles as a motivation to just set up a new strategy to try again.

[1834] You know, I'm very competitive in a sense.

[1835] I like the perfection of things.

[1836] So this is like a situation where put you in a situation where you have no, either you go forward or you don't, but don't stay in the middle, don't say just waiting for people or waiting for more.

[1837] Those are kind of things kind of stuck you back in life and just make you feel like passing through life as you know you're irrelevant you know it's very weak that's a beautiful way to end this thank you very much brother I really really appreciate it it was fantastic let's make this sometime again absolutely more things we could do this forever I'm sure and anything we could do to help your association I'm 100 % committed to making the state of jiu jitsu better you know improving on what is going on that's what i'm all about so jjgf dot com so we are true on that and definitely you're going to be invited for the development council thank you very much my pleasure brother so uh go there jjgf com enjoy it uh hicks and gracie thank you very much thank you bro thank you to our sponsors thanks to squarespace dot com go to square space dot com use the code word joe and save 10 % off your first purchase thanks also to on it dot com go to o n n i t use the code word rogan and save 10 % off any and all supplements.

[1838] We will be back in a little while with Bert Kreischer.

[1839] Much love, my friends.