S16 E7: 5150

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tibergki.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences as it discusses topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence.

[11] Content warnings for each episode and confidential and free resources for survivors can be found in the episode notes.

[12] Some survivor names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[13] pseudonyms are given to minors in these stories for their privacy and protection.

[14] Testimony shared by guests on this show is their own and does not necessarily reflect the views of myself, Broken Cycle Media, or Wondry.

[15] The podcast or any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional expertise or treatment.

[16] All persons are considered innocent and less proven guilty in a court of law.

[17] Thank you so much for listening.

[18] Okay.

[19] It's Thursday, June 8th, 2023.

[20] Show them your voice, Amy.

[21] Good morning.

[22] Amy's losing her voice, poor thing, but she assures me it doesn't hurt.

[23] I actually have never had it happen, so it's crazy.

[24] But, like, yeah, of course, like the one time I'm a podcaster and need to use my voice.

[25] Right.

[26] Well, I love a raspy voice, so I think it's great.

[27] It adds some razzle -dazzle this week.

[28] I love that for us.

[29] We're getting closer to the end here.

[30] How does that make you feel?

[31] It feels weird because I really, haven't communicated with folks much about it.

[32] I've had a few interactions with people.

[33] So it's weird working so hard and like gutting yourself and then putting it out there.

[34] I've been really extra introverted with my friends and family.

[35] I've been more in my head.

[36] Very tired and reflecting a lot on a lot of things.

[37] In self -preservation mode too.

[38] It also helps me see as I repeat these things back and I look at the birds -eye view the greater picture, it helps me have more empathy for myself in the struggles that I still have on a daily basis, which there are many.

[39] If it hasn't been clear to people enough, I'm extremely human and make mistakes all day, every day like everybody else.

[40] It has to feel very weird to be sharing something so intimate and knowing that it's spreading far and wide and you're making an impact, but you're doing it in a bubble because you've created a bubble of protection around you.

[41] Yeah.

[42] So holding space for that and allowing myself to just turn my Aries shit down slightly for a couple months and focused on this right now.

[43] But I went to go try and finish my tattoo.

[44] I had done an outline.

[45] I'm covering this chest piece that I've had that I got when I was 18 that I've hated forever and it just felt like the right time.

[46] I honestly think it's so symbolic too that you're doing it right now.

[47] Sorry, keep going.

[48] No, yeah.

[49] I think it really is.

[50] But I went to go get it and then I'm freaking 30 minutes into the tattoo passed out.

[51] He's like, it is a lot of trauma on your body.

[52] And it kind of was a wake -up call to me like, yeah, maybe my body's going through enough right now.

[53] You think about books like the body keeps score studies that are done on how the body is also impacted with trauma.

[54] It's interesting because as we dig through each episode in these different times in my life, it's weird because I feel these different physical sensations in different parts of my body.

[55] So I've really been paying attention to that to, again, me being a nerd, data points, always studying everything.

[56] Like, is it COVID?

[57] Is it trauma?

[58] Is it period?

[59] Is it what allergies?

[60] Like, what is it?

[61] But also, I haven't been eating enough.

[62] My anxiety has been triggered.

[63] I'm working on it.

[64] And that's the other thing that I think is important to acknowledge is disordered eating is something that I've struggled with since childhood.

[65] And it's something I struggle with on a daily basis.

[66] It's an ongoing thing for me. It's really interesting the perceptions that people have of fat people based off of things I read or comments that I hear people make or I've had made towards me and the actual reality.

[67] First of all, I think it's important for people to remember that there are real and extremely valid reasons why people can have unexplained weight gain due to medical diagnosis.

[68] The top reasons that dictate someone's size or their body fat is, genetics, also access to healthy food.

[69] There are such things as food deserts.

[70] There are mental health reasons.

[71] There are a plethora of reasons why someone could be what you perceive as fat other than they can't stop eating cheeseburgers.

[72] This is why when I go out, I don't like to eat in front of people.

[73] This is why when I go out, I struggle to like purchase food because I know that people are looking at me and seeing a fat woman and they're assessing what I'm buying and they're judging it.

[74] When I go to a restaurant, I know that people are assessing what I'm eating and how I'm eating it because I've seen them do it my whole life.

[75] That's part of the reason also that restaurants and grocery stores and things like that personally stress me the F -out.

[76] What's interesting is a lot of people don't realize that there's something called, it really should just be called anorexia, but it's called atypical anorexia.

[77] it is a type of disordered eating that I struggle from.

[78] And I would encourage people if they want to have a more compassionate understanding of the different ways that anorexia can present itself physically.

[79] I would encourage people to look into that.

[80] And also, we don't do that.

[81] We don't walk up to every person that's drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes and be like, are you going to be around for an extra seven years for your family?

[82] No. I just wish that people would understand.

[83] have compassion because it seems like people make a lot of assumptions.

[84] And of course, exercise, eating a balanced diet, drinking water, abstaining from alcohol, smoking cigarettes, make us healthy regardless of our size.

[85] It seems like it's one of those areas where people feel so entitled to be fat phobic and they don't keep that same health energy, their concerns for people's health about people's mental health.

[86] And honestly, fat shaming people and emotionally abusing fat people, actually, if you look at the scientific evidence, doesn't lead to healthier results.

[87] It leads to more disordered eating in individuals.

[88] For example, because I experience a lot of shame when it comes to purchasing food for myself and eating out when I'm traveling like this week, I've been struggling and I haven't been eating enough because I've been embarrassed.

[89] So I'll avoid eating meals.

[90] So then I didn't end up eating enough.

[91] I ended up fainting getting my tattoo.

[92] That was my fault.

[93] But the shame induces for me unhealthy eating habits than anything else.

[94] I'm not trying to blame other people or place, quote, blame on anyone.

[95] I'm just trying to speak to my personal experience in hopes that other people will feel validated by what I'm sharing.

[96] And perhaps people who are not being honest with themselves about how fatphobic they are and why they're fatphobic and where that is coming from, I hope it will open people's minds a little bit.

[97] It's not like nobody whose fat doesn't know that they're fat.

[98] Also, we really don't need you to tell us that we're fat or that you think we need to lose weight.

[99] Society tells us that every single day.

[100] We don't need your help.

[101] That's all.

[102] It's interesting how having this first person experience of going through what the survivors go through when they share their experiences.

[103] I've always had so much respect for the energy they give.

[104] And that's why I always say it in the episodes, thank you for your time and energy, because the energy is what's so costly, right?

[105] Especially in this life, on this earth, in these United States.

[106] And without being completely done as we get into these last few episodes, I feel like I've already accomplished what I came here to do, which is share a bit about myself.

[107] and what makes me who I am and what brought me to this work and why I was inspired to create something was wrong and broken cycle media.

[108] You've always been trauma -informed.

[109] You've always educated yourself on the dialogue and the correct terms, and you've always been really sensitive and empathetic.

[110] But now you have literally put yourself through the same process that your guests go through and you not only understand their experiences, but you understand.

[111] to a whole other level.

[112] I compliment you all the time on the fact that you can take an existing production and always look to see how you can make it better.

[113] And I think this was just another byproduct that might come from you sharing your story too, which will just make this show that much more powerful.

[114] Thank you.

[115] As people have probably noticed, I'm never one to not change things up and I'm going to continue to change things up.

[116] The things you believe need to be changed because some things don't need to be changed.

[117] Some things do, some things don't.

[118] don't for sure.

[119] We definitely listen to people's feedback.

[120] The team and I discuss it and we definitely consider it deeply.

[121] Sometimes we set it to the side and we're like, okay, we hear you.

[122] Thank you for that.

[123] And sometimes we're like, oh, that's, yeah, that's great feedback.

[124] We didn't realize that X, Y, Z would be helpful or whatnot.

[125] So it is really valuable and I appreciate it, especially when it's constructive or kind.

[126] But going through this process has also made me want to get back to my roots.

[127] Over the years, people have noticed that structure has changed.

[128] Networks have changed.

[129] Things have changed.

[130] I've changed.

[131] The world has changed.

[132] COVID changed a lot about how we had to record.

[133] And of course, the first time I did travel after COVID for recording for work, I did get COVID and ended up getting stuck in a hotel room for an extra week and a half.

[134] But yeah, so I know I had shared before.

[135] Every other season, I might do short stories or might do long stories.

[136] I don't even think I need to like be that held down.

[137] I think we're going to tell the stories that need to be told in the order they need to be told when they're ready to be told in whatever format the story needs.

[138] And that's a really cool thing about audio and being your own boss.

[139] For season 17, we're actually going to do another long form story.

[140] Season 18 might be long form, might be short form.

[141] It really just depends on whatever stories need to be told or are ready to be told in that moment.

[142] Yeah, changing things up where we need to through the season, through the season, my own reflection of my own journey, reflecting on the podcast and how much the podcast has helped me mature and grow as a human being over these last four years.

[143] Amy and I are also, and our internal partners are working on some educational episodes in the future.

[144] We used to include a lot of the educational information within the episodes and what we've decided to do is create separate episodes that will be called data points.

[145] Amy and I is one of our nerdy little favorite phrases and it'll include educational information on specific topics.

[146] Obviously, education has been at the forefront since the beginning.

[147] So this is just making an extra space for it that'll make it easier for people to digest if they are unable to listen to certain content for various reasons.

[148] It'll also be more appropriate for a wider audience and easily shareable.

[149] So I'm really excited about it to support survivors in our community and get the information out there on really important topics like childhood abuse, police brutality, mental health disorders, social issues, things that matter to our community.

[150] I'm not trying to make this sound like an infomercial today or anything.

[151] I'm just really excited about what's to come beyond this season two as we start to wrap up.

[152] The last few months have definitely been a time of reflection for me. Not only in my personal life, my professional life, It is good to like take stock of everything you've been through and then assess, okay, what is the life that I want and then just start building it.

[153] And also pairing back what doesn't serve you.

[154] Totally.

[155] And that's something I've had to continually do since season one is figuring out, okay, this worked, this didn't work.

[156] You just pip it.

[157] You're growing as a creator.

[158] I can't wait to watch all of this happen.

[159] But right now, I love that you're serving yourself by protecting yourself because you don't need that feedback right now.

[160] Thank you.

[161] as vulnerable as it's felt.

[162] It's not only made me feel closer to listeners and our something was wrong, our broken cycle community, but it's also made me feel closer to people in my everyday life, too.

[163] Hearing that people are listening to it, I'm like, oh, okay, so that person knows me a little bit better in a way that they probably didn't before.

[164] You're being seen?

[165] It's almost like how I felt.

[166] It's just like living in my own truth for the first time in this life, letting people know all of this and letting people understand me, even the people that I have known for years.

[167] I think this is really poignant, especially in Pride Month.

[168] And I don't mean to relate it to I think just in Pride Month, Pride Month, June, the point of it is to live your truest self.

[169] Yeah.

[170] I was going to compare it to like coming out.

[171] You know, be that person in your own life that you want to be or that you are and to live that truth effectively and honestly.

[172] And I think that's the point of Pride Month.

[173] It was unplanned, but like...

[174] I know, totally unplanned.

[175] Everything about the timing was unplanned, but yeah, I was going to say I shared people who knew me intimately, you know, in high school knew I was bisexual.

[176] So to those people, of course, there wasn't a secret.

[177] However, I didn't share that broadly beyond that circle of friends.

[178] And then after the incident that happened, the sexual assault, I did not talk to people about it anymore.

[179] And then actually in 2020, I was struggling with this and a survivor who's been on the show and a friend of mine, Jez, I was talking to her about it, and I was like, I feel like it seems silly to come out as a 30 -something married woman, but I kept thinking about my kids that I could make an environment and a home and a space where I could be open about my identity and therefore could potentially make them more comfortable in our home.

[180] And that really was my motivation.

[181] It was like the first step and seeing that by sharing myself, I could make spaces more comfortable for other people to be themselves too.

[182] So yeah, sharing my story of my abuse, while it's very different coming out experience, it does feel a lot like letting people know me in a way that felt similar when I came out before.

[183] It's weird.

[184] It's just like letting people know you.

[185] But I think that's really what the whole point of life and living our truth, and just being a human is about, is refining and sloughing off on that shit that society puts on you.

[186] This is me, all of me, to be received and accepted.

[187] That's such a beautiful feeling.

[188] It's so different than trying to fit into this box and be swallowable to people.

[189] There's so much more value.

[190] Yeah, too, when I reflect on my story and how I have often prioritized other people's feelings and how I was responded to when I would share my feelings.

[191] It's made me validate myself a bit reflecting on that.

[192] I've come a long way.

[193] My 20s was a lot of unlearning.

[194] I always want to be a teachable person, as Oridian said in season eight.

[195] So every day I see an opportunity to assess my intention, my impact.

[196] What's funny is I think my lack of sometimes interaction or my boundaries over the years has perhaps given some people the impression that I don't care.

[197] I assure you that I care more than anybody has ever cared since the beginning of time.

[198] You care like as much as all the people together from the beginning of time.

[199] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[200] I'm Sachi Cole and I'm Sarah Haggy.

[201] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[202] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[203] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[204] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judici, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[205] Follow scam influencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[206] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[207] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[208] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[209] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend.

[210] Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[211] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[212] What happens next?

[213] Depends on who you ask.

[214] Was it a crime of passion?

[215] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[216] This was clearly an intentional act.

[217] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[218] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[219] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[220] Everyone had an opinion, and after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[221] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[222] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[223] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

[224] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[225] Little did I know it at the time, but in 2009, as Michael and I are having our first kid and entering into parenthood in this new chapter ourselves, Bob was heading back to court to appeal his charges regarding the National Medical Services scam that he was serving time for.

[226] I later in 2021 will get a hold of this appeal and we'll get a hold of this appeal and we'll get into that in a future episode, but for the purposes of this time, all I knew was that a few news articles had come out.

[227] And within those articles, it did mention fraud, including targeting elderly or impacting elderly persons.

[228] And that was the first I had ever heard of that.

[229] Bob had done such a good job at convincing me that he was being targeted essentially at first.

[230] It was really hard to make sense of it, but as I started to get more time away from that environment, as Bob was away longer, and as I was able to process things, it became apparent that there was a lot more to this story than I knew.

[231] Something that I think speaks volumes to Bob's inflated self -esteem is that while Bob was serving time in prison for fraud, he would send me letters, and inside, the letters, there would be pages from a yellow legal pad.

[232] Bob was writing a book on business from prison and was sending me the pages and asked me to store them for him so that they wouldn't get lost so that when he was released from prison for fraud of his businesses, that he could have the pages to publish this book on business.

[233] It's a really good example of how utterly delusional Bob was about his abilities, especially when it came to business.

[234] As I mentioned before, Bob would passive -aggressively mention to me things about visiting him or putting money on his books and things like that.

[235] And for a time I did, but as the news article started coming out and I started slowly trying to process what had taken place, Before Jude had been born, I had stopped writing to him and hadn't responded and was trying to figure out my own life, trying to compartmentalize and not really think about my parents and their legal troubles as much as possible.

[236] We had moved throughout these years having children and we were definitely on an even tighter budget than before.

[237] It was really difficult throughout all of these years, as it is for many people.

[238] There was an incident one day a letter came in the mail, and I noticed that it was different from the prison because it was typed, which I thought was really odd.

[239] I didn't even know that they had access in this prison to a typewriter or a computer, but it did appear to be written on a typewriter.

[240] This letter was allegedly from an inmate who was with Bob advocating on Bob's behalf telling me that I needed to put money on his books and how he's the victim and how sad it is for him and how terror his family is and how he's been abandoned.

[241] Within reading halfway through the letter, I could tell that this was a letter written by Bob and he thought I was stupid enough to think that if he typed it, I wouldn't be able to tell that he wrote it.

[242] So essentially he was trying to catfish me from prison pretending to be this other inmate that was behind bars with him.

[243] There's really only two options.

[244] Either he was catfishing me and wrote this, which I believe with every part of me, Or two, he had given my address to some random dude in prison to write me this letter.

[245] Either way, was fucking ridiculous.

[246] After that, I did finally write him, and I let him know that basically I knew what he had done and that he could fuck off and that I would no longer be communicating with him and that I was having a baby and had gotten married and I'm focusing on my own life now.

[247] Basically, you're full of shit.

[248] I saw the news articles.

[249] You're clearly not telling me what was going on here and essentially I want nothing to do with you.

[250] And that was the last time I spoke to Bob for quite some time.

[251] The more time that I was able to become my own person and an adult building my own life and get time and space away from the toxic environment, the more I was able to see it for what it was.

[252] When I started having children, I was able to advocate more easily with the thought of how the choices I made impacted my children and the kind of environment that I wanted my children to be raised in.

[253] And I definitely didn't want Bob anywhere near my children.

[254] 2009 through 2012, we were really focused on raising our kids.

[255] Bobby and his girlfriend, we found out we're actually having a baby and gave birth to my niece about six months after my first born, Jude was born.

[256] I'll never forget when he called and told me, I was having a baby and I was so young and so scared and he's four years younger than me almost.

[257] I instantly was excited, but terrified for him.

[258] Bobby and his girlfriend had struggled with substance use disorder, but we hoped that this would perhaps be a motivation to them and something that would help them stay sober.

[259] There was a lot of mixed emotions about it.

[260] Bobby and his girlfriend moved to the state that his girlfriend was from into her pregnancy and they were able to stay with her mom.

[261] That gave them some stability.

[262] And it also made everyone involved feel a little bit more at peace about the transition, knowing that they would have a safe place to stay and somebody else in their corner with Liz and our relationship.

[263] certainly was challenging, but during these years when the kids were really small, there was a lot of cute distractions.

[264] And it was easy to just let her and Everett be Facebook grandparents and show up, take their pictures, buy the kids' presents, maybe have a dinner here and there, and it felt pretty positive.

[265] Certainly, Bobby having my niece was a very exciting time for our family.

[266] I really wanted to believe that this was a new beginning, that all of these exciting changes would be continually motivating to Liz to stay sober, keep trying, and be a part of all of our lives.

[267] Liz offered to pay for my ticket to fly with her to go visit Bobby and meet my niece.

[268] and Jude was young enough that he could fly with me for free.

[269] I was nervous about traveling with Liz because I have so many bad memories of traveling with her.

[270] Or just being with her in general.

[271] Yeah.

[272] Just like generally having to even absorb her energy in any capacity.

[273] I'm very focused on my kids and creating my life and my family.

[274] And it's kind of like if you can show up and be a part of that and be nice, great.

[275] If not, like I'm focused on what I'm focused on right now.

[276] But I really wanted to see Bobby and meet my niece, and I was excited, and I felt appreciative that she offered to pay for my ticket so I could go.

[277] Of course, right out the gate, I had just had a baby, and Liz seemed embarrassed.

[278] And throughout this trip, she made comments about my body, my outfits, and she was emotionally very abusive.

[279] Like I was such a disappointment to her, she went into this situation.

[280] with her guard up, and she was very competitive with Bobby's girlfriend's mom and feeling very insecure about that.

[281] Also, people like her, their masks slip most often when they're traveling.

[282] Yes, absolutely the fuck that.

[283] Now that I'm thinking about it, whenever we would usually see each other during this time, keep in mind, we would only see each other usually for like an hour or two tops.

[284] That's all I could tolerate.

[285] When you're traveling, there was nowhere to hide.

[286] I would do my best.

[287] I literally would find ways to, like, hide to the best of my ability.

[288] Being on this trip with her, it was a week of uninterrupted her time.

[289] I'm also like this new postpartum mother trying to navigate, exhausted, new body, very young, all the trauma I'd been through, all the things, just trying to do my best.

[290] And she's making me feel like a fat embarrassment once again.

[291] As much as I loved seeing Bobby and meeting my niece, it was very uncomfortable.

[292] And I felt a lot of competitive, strange vibes amongst Bobby's girlfriend and Liz and then Bobby's girlfriend's mom.

[293] And I tried my best to just focus on the babies and my brother and the time we had together.

[294] And I do have fond memories.

[295] Bobby had gone and bought a onesie for Jude of a local football team.

[296] I still have it.

[297] All of my kids wore that onesie.

[298] It was very special.

[299] But I was ready to go home.

[300] Not only would her mask slip, but sometimes her boyfriend, as he got to know her better, who she actually really was and what she was capable of, because now he had seen enough that he couldn't deny it in the same way he could when he first stepped on the scene.

[301] He would try really hard to, like, be a dad to me. And I really bought into that.

[302] I really was appreciative of that.

[303] He always seemed so much nicer.

[304] He was definitely the type of person who like gave off vibes like, I'm this liberal male who's comfortable with crying.

[305] He was a totally different vibe to Bob, which I appreciated.

[306] And I was hopeful that he meant the things that he said and he genuinely cared about me and my kids.

[307] And I don't know what to make of that.

[308] Maybe two things are true.

[309] And maybe he did really mean it.

[310] He had called me just to say hi or check in or whatever.

[311] And that's another interesting thing when I reflect is like throughout these years, even though I was in contact with Liz, her boyfriend or her sponsor, they would actually do a lot of the carrying of the relationship and like checking in and communicating with me instead of her.

[312] So it gave the impression of her caring more than she did.

[313] I was an extension of herself and she really hates herself.

[314] So she really hated me too.

[315] But it's weird because Bobby was an extension of her, but she was obsessed with Bobby.

[316] She always would criticize Tony what he looked like, how he acted.

[317] She really treated him like shit with Bobby.

[318] It was like, he's so gorgeous.

[319] He's so beautiful.

[320] He's like a model.

[321] I think it also created a lot of tension between Bobby's girlfriend and Liz because they were seem to be like fighting over him sometimes or like who had control over him.

[322] Bobby was a very sweet and passive person.

[323] As much as he struggled mentally, very isolated incidents of acting out, he was a very sensitive, emotional, private person with a very kind heart.

[324] This trip also showed me that he was very much caught in between.

[325] I could also see the pattern of the type of partner he was picking and how that partner mirrored Liz.

[326] And I don't say that to judge Bobby.

[327] It's just sometimes that happens.

[328] I ended up choosing certain female friendships as I got into adulthood where I sort of like recreated that relationship with my mom with other friends and then became their therapist or their punching bag or whatnot.

[329] And it took me a really long time to form.

[330] what felt like safe relationships of any kind with other women.

[331] I obviously like love women and this has nothing to do with misogyny.

[332] It's just a fact that the people that were kindest to me growing up were my brother and my dad.

[333] And now look at, I have like the best friend in the world, Amy.

[334] I have so many other beautiful close relationships with women.

[335] And look at the podcast.

[336] I primarily work with women and I've been able to build so many incredibly close relationships.

[337] And I am in a completely different place now than I was when I entered motherhood in terms of my comfort with interactions with women.

[338] But it still can be challenging for me because it can be triggering because of my relationship with my mom.

[339] Bobby and his girlfriend decided to move to California with my niece when I believe she was about six to nine months old.

[340] And they actually moved in with Liz and Everett in their two -bedroom apartment for a short time until they eventually got their.

[341] their own place.

[342] I didn't know it yet, but I was pregnant with Ruby and Michael and I had taken Jude to Disneyland.

[343] Somebody had given us tickets, which we were very thankful for because it was the only way we could afford to go.

[344] We were on our way back from this Disneyland trip and Bobby had called me. And I could tell when I got on the phone with him that he was not sober.

[345] Throughout these years, I had started to put up some boundaries with him in terms of if he was intoxicated, not wanting to be around him, and trying to just create the boundaries that I needed for myself, because obviously that behavior was super triggering.

[346] And also because I felt ultimately that setting boundaries would hopefully enable Bobby to change his behavior, to see the value he had.

[347] I didn't want to enable him, but I also couldn't take care of him.

[348] I also couldn't take care of him the way I had before because now I have it my own child.

[349] I have this whole other family and life that I'm responsible for.

[350] So it was kind of a challenging time for Bobby and I because I struggled to see him struggling so much and I was unhappy with a lot of the choices that he was making and he was struggling with his mental health and being a young adult, a young parent and also somebody who had been through an incredible amount of trauma that had not been processed yet as his brain is literally still developing because he's so young.

[351] I truly believe that him and his girlfriend were doing the best that they could, but there were concerns about my niece and everyone's overall health and safety.

[352] So Bobby had called me when we were on our way back from Disneyland.

[353] I could tell that he was not sober and he was agitated on the phone.

[354] They were looking for a babysitter from my niece, and I was trying to explain to him, like, no, I can't do it.

[355] I'm coming back from L .A. Bobby became very agitated with me, and he said a lot of very hurtful things.

[356] I was very hurt.

[357] We had pulled over because the phone call had become so intense.

[358] I didn't want to even have it in front of Jude, despite him being still like a one -year -old baby.

[359] We were at some random mall off the freeway that we had pulled over and I was standing outside the car in like a J .C. Penny's parking lot that was completely empty.

[360] And I remember him screaming at me and saying insulting things to me on the phone and being really mad that I wasn't available to babysit immediately.

[361] And me expressing my concerns like what's going on is my niece okay and concerned for everyone's overall health and safety while still trying.

[362] trying to set some boundaries and offer my suggestions as his older sister.

[363] He just was not having it, didn't want to hear it.

[364] After he said the things that he said, I was pretty much like, wow, that was so hurtful.

[365] And until you're ready to apologize to me, you can basically fuck off.

[366] Sadly, that was the last real conversation that we would ever have.

[367] because I never imagined that we would not have more time on this earth to figure it out.

[368] And I regret that distance in our relationship every single day.

[369] A few years after having Jude, I became pregnant with Ruby.

[370] They were born about 22 months apart.

[371] Michael and I jokingly refer to this as the dark times.

[372] Having two kids under two is fucking exhausting and strange.

[373] stressful.

[374] It was the most adorable, stressful time of our lives.

[375] We had our hands very, very full.

[376] Honestly, I don't remember too much about where Liz and Everett our relationship was with them at that time.

[377] Yeah, you had a lot going on.

[378] Yeah.

[379] I mean, at the time, I was working all day, every day, head chef in a kitchen, trying to make enough money just to survive, you know, to afford our rental house.

[380] I think at the time we were working all day, every day, head chef in a kitchen, trying to make enough money just to survive, you know, to afford our rental house.

[381] I think at the time, we paying like a thousand dollars a month and that was the most we'd ever paid for rent and it felt crushing at the time at the time Tiffany was at home working and taking care of the children and I was at work five to seven days a week busy to say the least finally I had made it to only having one full -time job which as many hours as I put in was like working two full -time jobs basically.

[382] Ruby was a baby.

[383] Jude was two and he was really funny.

[384] So much energy.

[385] When we were actually in the hospital, when Jude was just born, the nurses told us that Jude was the most alert baby they had ever experienced and they had each worked for like 20 years as nurses helping deliver babies.

[386] And Tiffany and I were just overjoyed at that hearing that.

[387] Like, oh my God, our baby's the most alert.

[388] But we didn't realize that that meant like he would never go to sleep.

[389] We also were very sleep deprived.

[390] Did Liz have a relationship with the kids at that time?

[391] She was sober.

[392] Yeah.

[393] So once she got sober, we drew up some boundaries with her.

[394] Like, we're encouraged by you being sober.

[395] And like, if you want to be around the kids, you need to be absolutely honest with us about where you're at.

[396] If you start drinking again, we understand that.

[397] addiction, sometimes you'd take a step back, but with Tiffany's experience growing up with her and even my experience over the couple of years I had known her, as an adult when she was under the influence, I didn't feel super safe.

[398] So letting my kids be around her in that sort of experience, or in that state, like, absolutely fucking not.

[399] So we did have those sorts of Yeah.

[400] And you trust and love your wife and you know the experiences that she shared with you from her childhood were valid.

[401] So knowing that too, whether she was sober or not, that is a history and a pattern.

[402] You're a protector of your children.

[403] I completely understand.

[404] Yeah.

[405] Before we had Jude, you have to decide what you want for your kid.

[406] How are we going to raise this child, you know?

[407] And so we had some pretty hard and fast rules that we, we both immediately were like totally in agreeance with.

[408] I commend you for figuring that out together and trusting in each other and the process of being vulnerable, having those conversations and making those boundaries.

[409] I think that's what it's all about.

[410] So, I mean, kudos to both of you for being change makers and cycle breakers in that respect.

[411] What stands out to you most from those years?

[412] Honestly, just persevering, feeling like life kept shitting on us or challenging us and just having to keep moving forward while trying to maintain being like a good person at the same time and not letting things get to you, I suppose.

[413] The holidays before Bobby's death, I hadn't spoken to him, but I loved my brother very much and I had sent my well wishes through Liz or Everett, knowing that they were in.

[414] communication.

[415] I didn't know what to get him.

[416] And I went to Target or one of those sort of stores.

[417] And at the holidays, they always have those like body wash giftsets, body wash or shampoo with alufa or deodorant.

[418] I saw one of those and it felt like no matter where he was at, he could use it in life.

[419] It felt like care.

[420] That's what I went with.

[421] I remember after the holidays, my mom telling me that Bobby had opened it and was telling me that it meant a lot to him.

[422] It was kind of like an olive branch had been extended.

[423] And sadly, he would die just a few weeks after that.

[424] And I really regret not reaching out to him more than I can stomach to try to explain.

[425] So yeah, I really, really regret that.

[426] After Ruby was born, I had really fallen in love with dressing the kids up in the world's most adorable outfits.

[427] and taking pictures of them.

[428] Pinterest and Instagram were still pretty new at this time.

[429] And I had started posting pictures of Ruby and her outfits and Jude and his outfits when I could get him to stand still enough to take photos.

[430] People were really responsive to them, and it was really fun to be reigniting my interest in fashion and styling in this tiny, adorable way.

[431] That gave me the idea to start the children's fashion blog that I used to have.

[432] This was still peak blogging days and I was really enjoying it.

[433] And I saw that there was, nobody else was really doing that yet.

[434] I had zero budget, but I had some friends that helped me. I had a friend named Dara who helped me build my first website and friends who encouraged me and my little iPhone would dress the kids up and take pictures on our way to go to the park or do whatever we were going to do anyways that day.

[435] I also did a lot of posts that didn't feature the kids, posts that were just strictly fashion and didn't involve the children simply showcasing different fashion collections and different ways to style high -end fashion looks for children, things like that.

[436] It started doing really well and I started getting paid content and it was really nice because it was giving me the ability to help us pay our bills and we needed every cent we could get.

[437] Also, by doing this, it also gave me access to like get clothes for the kids that we would have never been able to afford otherwise, or we'd get tickets to things like Disney on ice, and so the kids would get to go to stuff that was really cool and fun that we never would have been able to afford for them to go to.

[438] It was a really fun job.

[439] It also helped me get back into writing and flex my creative muscles and really start to channel that pain and the struggle into creativity once again.

[440] Even though I was talking a lot about kids, I would also post my own outfits talk about body positivity and things like that.

[441] And so he kind of gave me a space to honor who I was.

[442] And I think that that's one of the harder parts of parenthood and motherhood for me that I struggled with during these years.

[443] I was really stressed the fuck out about stuff that didn't matter really, ultimately overall.

[444] But I think by focusing on that and trying to like make everything cute and fun and focusing my energy there, it also helped me avoid.

[445] talking about this dark and traumatic stuff and gave me the ability to focus on this adorable, cute, colorful, fun stuff.

[446] I was more than happy to compartmentalize and not think about any of that other shit.

[447] So it was a lot easier, too, for me to pretend with Liz and Everett and try not to talk about the past and just focus on what was in front of us at the time.

[448] In general, there was a lot of compartmentalizing.

[449] I also don't want to over -share information about the kids.

[450] or Michael or our private life.

[451] So it's like hard as I'm, that's why I sound so robotic at times because I'm thinking so hard about how I want to say something without saying too much.

[452] No, I think you've done a great job thus far.

[453] I know how you respect their relative anonymity.

[454] More now than I used to, for sure.

[455] Also, the internet was different when we started blogging, right?

[456] And working in that industry and what people were willing to share.

[457] We have a lot more awareness in general as a society and the internet, ways we can keep our kids safer online.

[458] I've certainly become more protective of them and the information I share about them since the podcast has gotten to the place where it is.

[459] And now I'm like, I will, I do everything I can to protect them.

[460] And I regret over sharing things about them when they were younger that honestly were not my place to share.

[461] I have expressed that regret to them.

[462] And they've been like, mom, don't be silly.

[463] We don't care.

[464] Or that's fine.

[465] But now that I know more and I've, learned more about children and how they can be victimized online, even just by information being shared and stuff, I do feel like...

[466] The responsibility.

[467] Yeah.

[468] You know, you learn and you adapt.

[469] Here is Tiffany and Michael's longtime family friend, Jamie.

[470] How you would describe me as a person when we first started hanging out versus, like, I guess, who I am today.

[471] We met through my husband, Nick.

[472] When was this, 2009, probably?

[473] You had jude after we met.

[474] I'm more of think of Jude being freshly born as when we first started becoming close friends.

[475] I remember you guys brought us dinner and you made cupcakes and I was like, this girl made the best cupcakes.

[476] I've literally ever tasted.

[477] I must be her best friend immediately.

[478] I do remember those cupcakes being a huge hit because you talked about him for years.

[479] We held Jude and then you and I talked on the porch for a while and we've talked about our families on the porch.

[480] And that's probably why I think of that night as when we first started becoming friends.

[481] And after that, I feel like it was really easy for us to just talk to each other about family stuff, whatever.

[482] We'd complain about, you know, babies and husbands and all that stuff.

[483] When I think of those times, the early years, when our kids were little and we would do playdates and birthday party, like, I miss those times.

[484] But I also feel like a completely different calm person now.

[485] I was so stressed the fuck out, too.

[486] You won't.

[487] Thank you for a lot of, a lot of pressure on yourself.

[488] How would you describe to people the essence of Michael Reese?

[489] First, I will say this.

[490] Nick knows that Michael is the best dad.

[491] I mentioned this to me, Mom, Michael being the best dad one time when we had everybody over.

[492] And she's like, oh, don't say that.

[493] Nick and Isaac are fantastic dads.

[494] And I said, yeah, they are, but Michael's the best dad.

[495] And she just like kind of laughed and gave me a little knowing, nod.

[496] Michael is like the most considerate person I've ever met in my life.

[497] You and Michael have very joyful children.

[498] They act like they are very supported children.

[499] You can tell when kids feel safe to be themselves and that they feel like they know that they're like accepted in the space that they're in.

[500] They walk around and act like polite, sweet people, but they do it in a way that they're, like, very comfortable to be around adults.

[501] You can tell that they have been taken care of.

[502] Like, you can tell a kid has been supported and nurtured when they act like your kids act.

[503] Thank you.

[504] That's really the only thing Michael and I honestly genuinely care about being good at.

[505] I don't remember much in the way of, like, specific things that your mom said.

[506] But I definitely remember being around her probably, I don't know, eight times for different family things, birthday parties, baby showers, whatever.

[507] And I mostly just remember her, like, I mean, you know my mom well.

[508] My mom is a little on the, on the, like, she's fucking beams at all of us constantly, you know, the most maternal maternal.

[509] Especially during those times, you and I were getting pregnant.

[510] There was a lot of excitement, new families.

[511] That was a super happy time.

[512] And I do remember the thing that I remember that sticks out the most in my head about your mom.

[513] is your mom was not, she did not seem happy for you, which was fucked up.

[514] I remember thinking that at different events.

[515] Like, your mom should be having the biggest smile on her face ever watching her baby, you know, her grandbabies be born, all these different things happening that are exciting in your life at that time.

[516] And I do remember there being like a lack of warmth from her.

[517] Mm -hmm.

[518] That's so validating.

[519] Thank you for sharing that.

[520] I'm Dan Tiberski.

[521] In 2011, something strange.

[522] began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[523] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[524] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[525] She's like, I can't.

[526] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[527] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[528] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[529] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[530] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[531] Yeah, yeah.

[532] Well, yeah.

[533] No, it's hysteria.

[534] It's all in your head.

[535] It's not physical.

[536] Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[537] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[538] Or is it something else entirely?

[539] Something's wrong here.

[540] Something's not right.

[541] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[542] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[543] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[544] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[545] The day that Bobby passed.

[546] away.

[547] It was the evening time.

[548] I had just purchased a past my first blog her conference in 2012.

[549] It was a big expense to invest in myself and my business for the first time.

[550] I was really excited and I was waiting for Michael to get home.

[551] I was at work as usual.

[552] Everett called me and it was dinner time.

[553] He called me like a couple times.

[554] Usually if any family member or friend called me if a couple times in a row, I would assume it was like an emergency.

[555] So I just remember grabbing the phone and going outside in the back.

[556] And he told me that Bobby had been killed.

[557] He told me that he had been shot by the police.

[558] It sounded so, it just didn't seem real to me. I couldn't really honestly comprehend it in the moment.

[559] Took me a minute.

[560] He told me that they were at home with the sheriff and chaplain, and they were on, or they were on their way to their apartment, and they would come down later, but they thought Tiffany should hear the news from me. So I just, I remember going inside.

[561] And I don't really remember.

[562] if I told anybody at work what was going on other than that I had an emergency and I needed to leave right away.

[563] And I wasn't sure if I was going to be in the next day, which for somebody who works six or seven days a week, they would know how serious it was if I said that.

[564] Before I went home, I called a friend to come over for support.

[565] We lived just a few minutes away from work, so I got home pretty quick.

[566] I do remember it being really, really hard to find the words or just like the courage.

[567] I guess, to tell Tiffany, just because I knew how devastated she would be, and I just didn't want to be the one to say it to her.

[568] If that makes sense, I just felt so horrible.

[569] I didn't want to be the bearer bad news.

[570] I don't know.

[571] It's hard to share that kind of news with anybody.

[572] I remember coming home, and Tiffany was like, why are you home?

[573] It's the middle of dinner, and you're usually not home.

[574] I just remember telling her I needed to tell her some news.

[575] She thought I was playing with her, teasing her about whatever, but got her to sit down.

[576] It's also important to say that as much as I didn't want to be the bear of bad news, I didn't want it to be anybody else to be telling her that news at the same time, which is such a weird feeling.

[577] Like I wanted to be there for her, but also didn't want to be the one who was breaking her at the same time.

[578] I could tell just by looking at him that something was wrong.

[579] I remember thinking like he looked sick and asking him, what's going on?

[580] Are you okay?

[581] I honestly can't remember exactly how he said it, but he said something along the lines of, I'm really sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but Bobby is dead.

[582] And I just didn't believe it.

[583] There was no planet on which that made any sense.

[584] I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And questioning him and making him say it to me again, and then not believing him, and again, again, the same.

[585] And I don't know, scream crying, um shock guttural pain waves mixed in with pure adrenaline and shock and feeling like this must be some sort of nightmare or misunderstanding i don't even think i thought to ask how it happened at first I think at some point he told me there was an incident with the police and Bobby had been shot.

[586] I simply could not believe what was being told to me and it just made no sense.

[587] At some point, Michael told me that Liz and Everett and a police chaplain were on their way to come talk to me and try to explain to me what they knew about the situation.

[588] The kids were thankfully already in bed and stayed asleep.

[589] While we waited, I couldn't sit still, so I got up and I started cleaning the house.

[590] I was definitely somebody at the time who always tried to present the perfect house cleanliness when people would come over and I would put a lot of undue pressure on myself.

[591] When I heard people were coming over and being unable to sit still, trying to disassociate, I started cleaning the house.

[592] Michael was incredibly kind and supportive.

[593] He had said to me, hey, hey, I'll do that, I'll clean up.

[594] You don't need to worry about any of that stuff right now.

[595] And I was like, I just, I have to, I have to physically do something with myself.

[596] And so that's what I did.

[597] Just sob cleaning in horror and denial.

[598] and shock?

[599] I remember a little bit later, Everett and Liz showing up the sheriff and a chaplain.

[600] They're like his car was, we like found out that his car was somewhere else.

[601] I felt like we were finding out little details here and there, which was so frustrating.

[602] You want like a clear and concise story of what happened.

[603] There was no clear and concise story of what happened.

[604] Liz and Everett and the Chaplain arrived.

[605] We all hugged and cried.

[606] They had had more time to process the news at that point.

[607] I later found out that they had been notified, I believe, in the afternoon, early evening, and the chaplain had come over there, and they had decided that Everett would call Michael and Michael would be the one to tell me, which I'm very thankful that he was the one.

[608] to tell me. I don't know how to describe the deepest pain that you've ever felt in your life, but that's what it felt like.

[609] And I just felt instant guilt that I wasn't there for him in that moment.

[610] And I felt like I had failed him, and I had failed everyone.

[611] And if I hadn't had that To begin with, I didn't want it to be true.

[612] And they remember asking the chaplain, what happened?

[613] And he said that Bobby had gone after one of the officers' guns.

[614] And I just remember being so confused.

[615] And then they were explaining that he was in L .A. And he had bought a car a week before, a new car, a used car, but new to him, and that he was driving from Auburn to the state where his daughter lived, because he wanted to see her for her birthday.

[616] His girlfriend and him had broken up, and she had moved back to the state where she was from, and so Bobby had purchased this car a week before to make the trip out there for her birthday party.

[617] He was in L .A. area off the Paramount exit, and his car broke down, and he was having some sort of mental health crisis.

[618] The cops arrived and what the chaplain had claimed was that the officers said he went after the gun.

[619] And honestly, at that time, I couldn't even wrap my mind around any of that information.

[620] I don't think I was really able to comprehend the information that was even being told to me. I was just overcome.

[621] And there was nothing that I can do about it.

[622] Nothing.

[623] There was no undoing any of it.

[624] And that's the hardest part.

[625] to come to terms with.

[626] I would find out that there was a witness, and his story was very different from the one that the police chaplain had told me. I must have cried myself to sleep, because I don't remember going to sleep, but I do remember at some point waking up, and it was like I had fallen asleep for a few hours, and it was daybreak, right before the sun was going to come up at, like, four or something.

[627] And I remember going outside and Googling, Bobby's name and Los Angeles.

[628] And then I stumbled across video from a news site.

[629] And there was an interview with Ruben, The Witness.

[630] And I press play on that video.

[631] And I don't have access to the exact video now, but we were able to find a similar interview with him that he did later.

[632] And his story has always been the same.

[633] Okay.

[634] And when they came, the sergeant came on the opposite side of the road.

[635] and when he came by, he asked me, what are you doing?

[636] And I said, well, there's a guy in the middle of the street.

[637] Didn't you get the call?

[638] And he looks back on his screen.

[639] And when he looks on his screen, he realized that I had made that call.

[640] So next thing I know, he's calling this patch, I guess, and tell him he's got a 50 -150 here.

[641] And he ain't even talked to the subject in the street.

[642] So next thing I know, here comes squad cars from every direction.

[643] came out with the guns drawn, came up to him, picked him up, and shot him point blank.

[644] I said, you son of a bitch, and the guy that did, the cop that did it, walked over to the other squad car next to me, leaned up against it, and I asked him, why did you shoot him?

[645] He said, he went for my gun.

[646] You're a damn liar, you didn't go for your gun.

[647] I see the whole thing from right here.

[648] And the next thing I know, his partner came, and he said, hey partner, you did it.

[649] Good job, good job, partner.

[650] Can you imagine that?

[651] You imagine somebody saying that after they murdered somebody?

[652] This season on something was wrong.

[653] It was like coming to terms with the unimaginable.

[654] It was extremely difficult to get his body back.

[655] They were delaying it.

[656] He was like, wait, who are you affiliated with?

[657] And I was like, well, Bobby's sister, he was like, I didn't even know he had a sister.

[658] Oh, my God.

[659] Yeah.

[660] She was being so rude and bat shit to her daughter at her daughter's baby shower that somebody else had to intervene and tell her she needed to leave.

[661] All right, so today is May 4th, 2021, and yesterday I got a copy of my father's appeal.

[662] He was like, I had lunch with his dad.

[663] He literally was sitting there with me, got a phone call.

[664] from the attorneys, and then just left, and that was the last time he saw him and talked to him and never heard from him again.

[665] Thank you so much for listening.

[666] Until next time, stay safe, friends.

[667] Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production, created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[668] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at Something Was Wrong podcast.

[669] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags.

[670] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[671] Thank you so much.

[672] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[673] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon music.

[674] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.