Political Gaslighting | Featuring Stephanie Moulton Sarkis, PhD

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[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

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[18] listener for a long time.

[19] You might recognize her name because she wrote the book, gaslighting, recognizing manipulative and emotionally abusive people and break free.

[20] So first of all, welcome, doctor, can I call you Dr. Stephanie?

[21] You can just call me Stephanie.

[22] That's fine.

[23] Stephanie.

[24] Yeah, that's great.

[25] Awesome.

[26] So welcome to the podcast.

[27] I think it's so cool how we kind of like happen to just connect.

[28] Yeah, that was wild.

[29] Yeah.

[30] Yeah, because there's a friend of yours, I think.

[31] Right.

[32] connected us.

[33] Yes.

[34] So my friend Jill had written a tweet that went viral about essentially gaslighting of the administration.

[35] And she had a huge response from people that felt that that really resonated with them.

[36] And people were asking her for further information on gaslighting.

[37] And so she had reached out to me knowing that I had talked about this at large on the podcast.

[38] And she recommended your book.

[39] And then we got connected and you said you would be on the podcast.

[40] And I instantly was just like freaking out so excited.

[41] I think I literally squeed.

[42] I actually squeed to my husband about it, honestly, because I was like, oh, she does be a podcast.

[43] Pock is so amazing.

[44] So you have this great episode.

[45] Yeah.

[46] So I was like, look at this podcast.

[47] This is great.

[48] So yeah.

[49] So I also was like, woohoo.

[50] And I was so excited that we're recording today.

[51] So.

[52] So it's mutual.

[53] Thank you.

[54] Thank you.

[55] And it's kind of like wild timing because a few weeks ago I had posted on Instagram and with everything going on with the election.

[56] I'm just like, I wish that I could find a doctor that would talk to me or, you know, a psychotherapist that could talk to me about the gaslighting and the red flags that I'm seeing.

[57] It's almost like politics aside, it's the behaviors.

[58] And for myself, I grew up with a father with antisocial personality disorder, which I didn't find out until later in life.

[59] And I have to tell you the first time I saw Donald Trump speak, I turned to my husband.

[60] I said, who?

[61] is that?

[62] Who does that sound like?

[63] And he was like, it sounds exactly like your dad.

[64] And it's wild because when you've lived with someone like that and you've seen those behaviors, the gaslighting behaviors and the narcissism and different things, it's very easy, I think, to recognize it in other people when you've had to constantly sort of like know the behaviors to survive and also just witness them in your life.

[65] And so that's something that's been really honestly like quite triggering for me as a human since 2016 and also being a sexual assault victim in my past.

[66] It's really been difficult.

[67] I'm not going to lie, there's been times where I felt like legitimately depressed by the politics and the things that are happening in our country, especially this year.

[68] I'd like to start chapter six in your book is called Mad for Power and it is on the topic of gaslighters in politics, society and social media, which is like just so incredibly relevant and what's interesting about your book is that it was written what was it came out in 2018 and it feels a lot like when I read this chapter now like some sort of prequel that you created to 2020 because it's literally so accurate in each piece that you break down of the sort of profile of this behavior is so accurate that it's honestly kind of chilling to read it again today I was reading it before the interview and I'm like oh my gosh This is even more relevant than I recognized a year ago when I first read it.

[69] So on page 95, you say, as we've been seeing, gaslighters will confuse, distract, and harm so as to get away with behaviors that otherwise would draw attention and outrage.

[70] Unfortunately, this is true for public figures as for private citizens.

[71] Think about the damage that can be done when gaslighters take to the big stage of politics, traditional media or social media, the potential to destabilize, skew reality, abuse, and control behavior and choices soars.

[72] On the national stage, they have the capacity to make or break the rules that hundreds of millions of people live by every day.

[73] They can make laws that affect our access to such services as health care and the safety of our air and water and food supply.

[74] That kind of power in the hands of a gaslighting personality is a true recipe for disaster.

[75] That's why it's so important that citizens use their sacred voting right and be willing to step up and take action when people in public office are disregarding the needs of the public, which basically summarizes the exact reason I wanted to speak with you today.

[76] So as you sort of reflect on the time when you wrote this book and what has transpired in the last few years, what do you think rings true for you even more?

[77] now than when you wrote the book?

[78] That this is a pattern that we have seen time and time again in history, in families, in relationships, in workplace issues, that this type of personality has traits that keep coming back.

[79] And eventually, narcissists, gasliders, sociopaths, you know, which includes antisocial, they eventually trip themselves up and they will take everyone down with them.

[80] So I wrote it with the idea that I kind of, of knew that this was coming.

[81] I didn't know how bad it would get.

[82] I kind of figured it would get bad, but I didn't realize it would get to this point where I think last night he was on a show talking about tiny fish and little windows and buildings, I think.

[83] I think that's what he was talking about.

[84] I think that's a like verbatim quote.

[85] So yeah, it was tiny, yeah, that there were going to be tiny windows and buildings and there's little fish that California is rationing water because there's little fish that need that aren't getting enough water.

[86] Like he said something, like that.

[87] And I remember we just kind of listened to with her mouth hanging open.

[88] And I'm thinking, oh, I wrote about this.

[89] You know, like not like in a good way, but, you know, it's, it's that narcissists get to a point where they will not listen to anyone.

[90] And if people can get out their grass, they get to the point where they only surround themselves with yes people.

[91] And when you have someone telling you that your behavior is fine and acceptable, you just keep going with it until you get called out in enough times and the people that were there, yes, people start turning on you, which we're starting to see.

[92] But the fact that it took this long for some people to realize or to admit how pathological the behavior is is really shocking, but not surprising.

[93] Right, because I think it is such a product of his ability to gaslight.

[94] And what's funny is like, I saw a tweet, other day and it said, you know, the difference between Trump and Pence is that Pence can lie calmly.

[95] And I also saw so many gaslighting traits from him.

[96] And I'm not, you know, I'm just speaking about what's relevant right now in the current landscape.

[97] Obviously, gaslighters can be found on both sides of the aisle in the United States history.

[98] And I'm, and I'm in no way trying to claim that this is a behavior that is only one -sided.

[99] However, given what I learned in your book, it really helped me put words to what I was feeling when I would listen to Donald Trump and relate that experience to how I always had to listen to my father.

[100] And one of the terms, I can't remember if I learned it in your book or someone else's, but is word salad.

[101] And it's like when they're just talking in circles and the buildings and the fish and the best and everything's the greatest.

[102] And it's just like that behavior is, it's so.

[103] textbook in a way that once you sort of start to recognize it, as soon as you see that that type of personality and action, you're like, oh, red flag, red flag.

[104] One of the things that I really love about your book is your ability to really break down what the portrait of the overall gaslighter sort of looks like.

[105] You know, I think a lot of people think of gaslighting as a behavior as it, you know, as it is.

[106] But what I think really helped me when I read your book was looking at, it as a whole person and all of the parts that make up that person that that showcases this gaslighting personality some of the sort of behaviors that you highlight in the chapter is that they show little empathy and on that's on page 97 and you say one of the hallmarks of gas lighters is their lack of empathy and in politics it's no different in the united states we're seeing this right now as people are actively working to remove healthcare during a literal pandemic.

[107] And to me, I think that highlights a great lack of empathy, considering how much people are suffering in our country.

[108] One of the examples you gave in the book was in Venezuela in 2017.

[109] The people of Venezuela were starving.

[110] They were having an economic crisis.

[111] And their dictator, Maduro gave us, Maduro gave a speech in which he pulled an empanada out of his desk drawer and started eating it while talking.

[112] And I thought this was such a good example of those sort of mask slips that you sort of spoke about before, which is like the thing that I have been saying to my friends in private since Trump took office is like, what's going to be really fun is when he's not in power anymore.

[113] And then when all the people come out of the woodworks and reveal all of his behavior that he can't threaten or hold people.

[114] You know, he doesn't have that power to be able to keep those people silent anymore, which I think we're already seeing.

[115] I mean, I can't imagine the book that's going to come out like another five, ten years.

[116] Right.

[117] I mean, can you imagine all the stuff that's going on that we haven't found out about?

[118] That's the thing.

[119] It's like we're just barely scratching the surface.

[120] And that's what I don't think a lot of people understand.

[121] Right.

[122] And unfortunately, because Trump has been able to use people's core values to manipulate them into supporting him when I look at people who are pro -life and that's their main reason for staying in support of Trump.

[123] But then we see at the debates that issue is brought up and he's like, where is it going?

[124] I'm not going to do anything about abortion.

[125] Like it was very telling to me. It was a mask slip moment that I hope other people notice.

[126] He doesn't actually care about being pro -life.

[127] He's only using that as a talking point to manipulate you.

[128] So I think, It's one of those telling signs.

[129] In terms of the behaviors that you talk about in the book, another one that you highlight is that they're megalomaniacs and that gaslighting politicians do not see themselves as employees of the people.

[130] And I think that this is very true when I look at American politics today.

[131] Like you highlighted in the chapter, there are people in politics that get into it for the reason of wanting to serve their country and be an example for the people.

[132] A force for change.

[133] A force for change.

[134] And unfortunately, right now, what it feels like we're seeing in the United States is politicians who care more for about dollars and cents and who's paying them and who's lining their pocket.

[135] And I think it's always been that way to some extent, but I think now it's just so blatant.

[136] And there's so many moral, I guess, interruptions to, to, to.

[137] what the U .S. views in general as morals that, and it's not being called out by the people that support him.

[138] Like McConnell, for instance, McConnell's had several opportunities to say, hey, this isn't okay, but he keeps, he's backing him up.

[139] And I think that's one of the other things is that seeing the amount of enabling that's happened is really frightening.

[140] You know, enabling's part of when you have a narcissist gaslighter, there are enablers.

[141] But to the extent that these people are willing to burn their own careers down, so they don't have to say no to Trump is, again, really scary and fascinating at the same time.

[142] How do you think he does it?

[143] My guess is that he's quite charming if you are on his good side.

[144] I think that he does.

[145] So part of kind of like my background is I worked in and Boca Raton and lived in Palm Beach County for about 10 years.

[146] And he was known as kind of like, like he was nice to you if you, if he didn't have an issue with you.

[147] But you could tell like he wasn't kind of there.

[148] Like he's always somewhere else.

[149] Do you know what I mean?

[150] Like that I'm trying to explain.

[151] And he's pleasant to people that he thinks he can get something from or that haven't upset him.

[152] But if you do upset him, then he burns everything down to the ground.

[153] And the mask slips.

[154] That's my, and again, that was my father to a T. It was like he was super charming, like super, oh, business guy, like funny cracking jokes.

[155] Like, you know, even though I despise everything that Trump stands for, there's still times where I'm like, I'll laugh at his joke or, you know, he makes his work because he has an ability.

[156] He works so hard to make himself likable.

[157] Right.

[158] And to make himself charming.

[159] And it's very, and it's very effective.

[160] And I think also his ability to speak in a way.

[161] way that's relatable and feels less like a quote politician to people for some reason they look at that as like this signal that he is real or he's honest but really it's just a distraction from the actual fact that he has no idea what he's doing and he's not qualified for this office in any capacity right i think a lot of people just liked him from tv right and that isn't real yeah the amount of trauma that he has caused people or triggering a past trauma is really remarkable and again something that's that's horrific i had people contact me after the debates that they were having flashbacks that had not popped up in a while from their own history of abuse because of the way that he was kind of steamrolling during the debate and just ignoring people and not shutting up to be paraphrase Joe Biden.

[162] And it really brought people back to living with someone that everything has to be about them.

[163] And people were, people were waking up.

[164] And I noticed this particularly, this is across time zones.

[165] People told me that they were waking up at 2 a .m. the night after the debate in a cold sweat having nightmares.

[166] And that had not happened to them before all at 2 in the morning.

[167] I'm not sure what the significance of 2 in the morning is.

[168] But it was something that your subconscious picked up on this.

[169] your conscience picked up on it and then it brought up all this stuff that we have these little compartments we keep things in so we can go about our day.

[170] And I think seeing someone like that, without the mask on, really terrified people and brought them back to that place when they were with somebody like that.

[171] Absolutely.

[172] That's, I mean, honestly, that's how I felt.

[173] And in 2016, I think my coping mechanism was just, he's not going to win.

[174] He's not going to win.

[175] He's not going to win.

[176] And then he won.

[177] And I was just like, I, I, I, I, I, I couldn't believe it.

[178] I couldn't believe that more people were upset that a woman, I felt like Hillary Clinton was judged more for staying with her husband who cheated on her than an actual rapist who's been accused of sexually assaulting women 22 times.

[179] Right.

[180] And we don't care about that.

[181] Like we literally have him on tape talking about sexually assaulting women and we still don't care about that.

[182] And this person is our president.

[183] Or we do care and the people that should be doing something about it aren't.

[184] The people that have the power art. doing something about it.

[185] So I think that's part of it, too, is that a lot of us know what should be done.

[186] But again, we go back to Mitch McConnell that he could have been doing things and he hasn't.

[187] So that's one of the biggest issues is that feeling of helplessness that we know what should be done, but who's speaking for us?

[188] And the people that can't speak for us don't have power right now.

[189] Yeah.

[190] So I think that's some of the major issues.

[191] And rarely has someone stepped out of the party line.

[192] Like, for instance, you saw what happened to Mitch Mitt Romney when he spoke out against Trump and tried him just lashed out at him and tweeted stuff about him.

[193] And, you know, it's, it's, um, because that could make or break their career.

[194] And he has instituted a real level of fear in people, um, which is, you know, right about the book, you know, that's the sign of an autocrat is that you rule through how many people you can terrify and impose your will and you turn people either into winners or losers.

[195] That's a real theme of autocrats.

[196] Either you're a winner or a loser.

[197] That's it.

[198] And all these pejoratives he puts on people that upset him.

[199] Like he calls Nancy Pelosi crazy.

[200] And Nancy Pelosi has, has, I wrote an article for Forbes about, you know, it's a master class not to handle a gas lighter.

[201] You know, she's raised five teenagers, right?

[202] So the lady knows how to deal with stuff.

[203] If you've raised a teenager, you know how to deal with some gaslighting, Right.

[204] So she, the way she handled him was very much like, you know, I accept that you have some really big personality flaws.

[205] And I'm going to go about my business, but I'm also going to call you out on your stuff.

[206] And I'm going to hold you to it.

[207] And the way she did it was very non -judgmental.

[208] And she kind of let him expose his, you know, make his mask drop on his own.

[209] And it's very masterful the way she did it.

[210] And you see that now, too, with the And today, when she had a meeting about forming a 25th Amendment committee, and for listeners that aren't familiar with what that is, the 25th Amendment basically says that the president is not fit physically or mentally to hold office.

[211] And so the power can be transferred.

[212] There's a transition of power to the vice president.

[213] And then if not the vice president, I think the president of the Senate, which would be Pelosi.

[214] So the idea behind it isn't probably that they're going to put.

[215] put Trump to that, but just the fact that it's there that he's already spinning out of control, just the fact that his sanity is being questioned.

[216] Now, he's on some heavy, heavy steroids right now, which can, you know, even the lower dose steroids can cause some behavioral issues, but he's on some high dose ones.

[217] Now, I'm not as doctor.

[218] I don't know exactly what he's taking, but I think that's what his White House physician said that he's taking steroids.

[219] So, just to put the 25th Amendment perspective, George W. Bush invoked the 25th Amendment twice or did a transfer power twice because he was getting routine colonoscopies and was going to be sedated.

[220] And he knew that he couldn't run the country while he was getting sedated for his colonoscopies.

[221] So he transferred power to Dick Cheney for colonoscopies.

[222] Now we have someone that has COVID that if you listen to the recording from last night, I think he was on Sean Hannity, I think on Fox.

[223] sounded really bad.

[224] And here's someone that is having physical problems.

[225] He's having some emotional problems, behavioral issues, and yet he's still running the country.

[226] So it kind of puts in a perspective that people have transferred power for a lot less.

[227] And we become normalized to this idea that this is how people behave.

[228] And if you look back to, again, like you were saying, like 2016, if you looked ahead to 2020, how many people would have thought things would have gone this far?

[229] I mean, I was scared they would, but I remember so many people that I knew that were justifying their votes for Trump, like people I was close to saying, nothing's going to change.

[230] He's just going to be a good businessman for our country.

[231] And I'm like, you do not understand who is paying for this person if you think that.

[232] And one of the things that you highlight is like the NRA, I believe in your book, you talk about that and how.

[233] you know, they spend a lot of money, giving money to a lot of politicians campaigns.

[234] And so when our policy, when our politicians are being backed by these huge corporations, they have people to answer to.

[235] And when people are writing you checks, you owe them something most of the time.

[236] And we see that a ton with Trump.

[237] And that's very apparent.

[238] He will look in the face of the truth and lie if it protects the people that are writing his checks.

[239] Like he will look at science, facts, figures, and just say those are lies when they're even sometimes like his own party or his own government.

[240] And he will blatantly deny it.

[241] And I think that that willingness that he has to just double down on the gaslighting really makes some people believe the things that he's saying in a real way.

[242] And it's really kind of sad to see how many people have joined this his quote you know there's a book called the cult of trump and and i do as somebody who studied quotes i do see so many parallels um well we call the followers right yeah we don't call them supporters we call him followers a lot of times yeah and that wording in itself i mean the next chapter after chapter six is about cults and yeah you see things about not questioning the leader um the leader says that what you're thinking is wrong when he thinks is right and that's it.

[243] There's a punishment factor involved.

[244] But I also see, too, that there are a lot of people that have realized how disturbing this has all become.

[245] I mean, I kind of want to go back to a place where I didn't know the name of the Postmaster General.

[246] Do you know what I'm saying?

[247] Like, I know his name is DeJoy, and I know he lives in North Carolina, and I wish I did not know that stuff.

[248] Right.

[249] I know way more about government.

[250] That's something I didn't really need to know.

[251] Like, I'm ready for government to be boring again.

[252] and you know that that whole idea of well drain the swamp well the swamp showed up you know so it and there's a lot of projection too which is what you see with a lot of narcissists gaslighters antisocial personality where when he's talking about himself he's he's talking about other people so if you look at the stuff he tweets about it and the fact of he might be talking about himself there's so much projection that goes on like for instance like like narcissists saying like oh well you're cheating I'm going to check your phone and it turns out that they're cheating because they're narcissistic supply can never be filled.

[253] So if you look at a lot of stuff he says, think about what's come out since then.

[254] And one of the things you talk about too is their retaliation.

[255] We touched on this a little bit, but like if you dare to cross them or people who are in his party that have crossed them, like you will know it and they will come at you with a vengeance.

[256] And one of the things you say is gaslighters know they target you or even worse, they target your family.

[257] Gaslighters know that to really get even with you going after your family makes you suffer the most.

[258] And we saw that in the first presidential debate.

[259] And that was something that a lot of people highlighted when he brought up Biden's son who is deceased and made comments about his other child.

[260] I personally, I was shocked that children were even brought up at the debate.

[261] Yeah, I wasn't.

[262] But you probably guess so I knew, I knew he was going to, so to give you a snapshot of Biden, his, his wife, and his daughter were killed in a car accident.

[263] I think his daughter was only like a little over a year old.

[264] And then his son dies in adulthood from a brain tumor.

[265] His other son had an addiction issue and went to rehab.

[266] And as Biden said, you know, he's really proud of him that he's in recovery.

[267] So that's the kind of loss that this person has dealt with.

[268] So that was exploited by Trump.

[269] And I think for very good reasons because he was trying to find anything that he thought would make him, you know, quote, weak, unquote, when in fact, Biden turned it into, you know, with his son that had addiction issues, you know, how proud he is and that many families in the U .S. have had someone with addiction issues.

[270] So he turned it around into, you know, I'm proud of my child for making this change in their lives.

[271] And so it made what Trump did even look worse.

[272] Because here's someone that's saying, you know, my son, yes, this happened.

[273] But, you know, he worked on it.

[274] and he's okay now and how beautiful is he's okay now and it really emphasized that yeah Trump went there he went there he went after his dead son and that's what narcissists do especially when they think that they are losing ground on something they will throw anything that hurts you at you they collect ammunition so they will ask about what your vulnerabilities are they will ask about you know what's your worst fear or you know tell me about you know why you when your sister aren't talking or whatever.

[275] And they will bring that up at some point.

[276] So they're not asking you because they want to develop emotional intimacy with you.

[277] They're using it so that they can spear you with it later on.

[278] It's emotional ammunition.

[279] Yeah.

[280] Well, I was going to say, too, it's very telling that, you know, when they decided the second debate was going to be virtual because, you know, Trump has COVID, that his reaction was, I'm not going to debate in that format because that's not a real debate.

[281] because narcissists don't like being muted because the presidential debate committee was going to start enforcing a muting rule because of the fact that Trump would not stop.

[282] And so he said, that's not how you debate.

[283] You know, I can't keep going on if it's on virtual.

[284] And so that's, he refused.

[285] So that says a lot about, you know, the fact that narcissists feel like they have a right to steamroll over people.

[286] And that's a normal behavior.

[287] Yes.

[288] And they don't know how to operate.

[289] without it.

[290] They can't.

[291] He can't.

[292] His methods don't work without it.

[293] Right.

[294] And the Lincoln Project, too, has been really instrumental at figuring out how to kind of thwart the narcissist.

[295] They have, and I don't recommend these techniques because this is stuff you don't do when you live with a narcissist or work with one.

[296] But there was a video they did of, you know, when he came out of the helicopter after the hospital and he's like going up to steps.

[297] Like usually presidents don't go up the steps.

[298] And I think that's the south end of the building.

[299] They go through a ground floor door.

[300] on the other side.

[301] But, you know, he went up the steps and he was filmed and all this stuff.

[302] Well, they did a video of Vita, you know, the Broadway show of Vita.

[303] But they did it with a song about him and his insatiable need for attention.

[304] And I guess he got really mad at this.

[305] So what they're doing basically is they're provoking him into exposing his narcissistic weak spots.

[306] So again, I don't recommend people do that.

[307] But they figured out a way that it's interesting that he's taking his, I just saw a graphic that they're taking money from their presidential campaign in states that are swing states.

[308] So those are states that are up that we don't know which way they're going to go.

[309] And they have put money into the D .C. ad market.

[310] And I think it was Rick Wilson with Lincoln Project said, well, part of the reason they're doing that is because they need to show Trump these ads are running because he's looking at all the negative feedback.

[311] So they're spending millions of dollars advertising in D .C., which is heavily Democrat.

[312] to put Trump ads on.

[313] They're wasting all this money so Trump can be happy that they're doing these commercials and he can watch them on TV.

[314] So think how much money they spent on that.

[315] Yeah.

[316] So this is where the narcissist eventually kind of just falls apart because they are, he's torpedoing his own campaign because of his own insatiable need for attention and power.

[317] Absolutely.

[318] And this is usually what happens.

[319] Absolutely.

[320] I agree 100%.

[321] And I think another sign to me of that was when the COVID crisis began.

[322] And he delayed some people's checks so that he could sign them.

[323] Or if you got auto deposit, I got like a letter from him with his signature.

[324] And it's like you're literally, like people were literally evicted because their checks were delayed.

[325] But you care more about the fact that they, you want people to know that you wrote them that check.

[326] Like they owe you something.

[327] He couldn't even sign them.

[328] He couldn't even sign them because the department.

[329] of Treasury doesn't allow a president to do that.

[330] So he put his name on the memo line.

[331] Yeah, or today or yesterday, he said, he referred to my Department of Justice.

[332] It's not your Department of Justice.

[333] It's the U .S .'s Department of Justice.

[334] It's the Citizens Department of Justice.

[335] It's not your Department of Justice.

[336] And that's also very telling.

[337] It's like this possessiveness thing, like mine, mine.

[338] And there's a real kind of ownership territorial thing to it that, no, you work for the people.

[339] You don't work for you or, you know, people, they're supposed to serve us.

[340] We elected them.

[341] But to say my Department of Justice is just so far removed from how things are supposed to be.

[342] But, you know, we've been on the slippery slope.

[343] So at this point, you know, when Trump literally says, I didn't say that or, you know, what you saw and heard or not what happened, we were already like halfway into his term.

[344] So we start going down the slope.

[345] And at this point, you know, we've got someone that we don't know if, you know, I woke up one where I said, you know, we don't know if he's dead or not.

[346] Like, is he dead or alive?

[347] We have had no response from anybody about his hospitalization at all.

[348] And, you know, usually if the president has, you know, I forget who it was, it was one president had like a fairly minor medical thing.

[349] And the doctor came out and said, this is what it is.

[350] This is the course of action.

[351] because the idea is, is that the president is elected by the people.

[352] And so if he has a medical issue, the doctor has an obligation to be straight with the people.

[353] So this doctor, I think it was at Conley.

[354] See, again, I don't want to know the name of the White House doctor anymore either.

[355] Right, right.

[356] You don't need to know.

[357] But so he's like, well, you know, was he given oxygen?

[358] Well, you know, like he was hedging on that and he was hedging on this and that.

[359] And it's kind of like, well, you know, we kind of need to know if he's alive or not.

[360] You know, like we got that part down.

[361] And then it was like, well, how sick is he?

[362] And then we find out he's given supplemental oxygen, which means he was having a hard time.

[363] You saw him at the top of the stairs, you know, and he took off his mask.

[364] Again, infecting, you know, possibly all the people that work at the White House that were there before him, which is a largely black and also Latino population working at the White House that have been there for years and he's possibly infecting them.

[365] People are disposable to him.

[366] Absolutely.

[367] And then when he was at the top of the stairs, you could see him like, like we were talking about, like, you have asthma and I have asthma, that you can tell when someone can't breathe because we use all these, you know, what are called accessory muscles to help yourself, you move your diaphragm and get a breath.

[368] And you can see him having problems breathing.

[369] So we know that what the doctor's saying is not the full picture.

[370] But we've also kind of gotten used to the fact that, well, we're probably not going to get the full story.

[371] And that's where the issue is, is that this has been normalized, that this is how the present operates.

[372] And this is not how a president operates.

[373] I couldn't agree more.

[374] One of the things that you also highlight in the book on page 98 is that gaslighters in power fail to take responsibility.

[375] And I think that this is very accurate when I think about today's political climate, especially with the COVID -19 crisis and how it's been dealt with in the United States.

[376] The fact that our president and vice president knew that there was a deadly virus in our country and did not tell us for weeks.

[377] and then minimized it to protect their own interests and their stock market and whatever else they were trying to protect is it lacks empathy and um and he actually said i i don't take responsibility literally said i don't take responsibility i mean it can't get any clearer than that i mean when someone tells you who they are believe them right so true the wonderful dr maya angeloos said that first and uh i i had heard the quote so many times and i didn't know it was attributed to her and it's yeah it's so poignant they always point the finger at someone else is another thing that I highlighted when I was reading the book as it stood out to me and the next point that you make is that they detest intellectuals and I think about this a lot when I think about Trump and how he responds to scientists um did that stand out to you this year as we've moved through this crisis I saw that even from the beginning that he was starting to do that and that's also what Nazis did too.

[378] They especially targeted intellectuals because those were the people that could speak truth to power and had the most authority to speak truth to power.

[379] So those are usually the first people that autocrats and also that Trump tried to dissuay.

[380] Like I wrote for Forbes an article about, you know, that basically paraphrase and we're really lucky that Dr. Fauci is still around.

[381] Now this is a man that has served, what, six presidents, seven presidents, and he has received accolades.

[382] He's had several published articles.

[383] He was commended.

[384] I I think he got the Presidential Medal of Freedom, I think, from George H .W. or George W. Bush.

[385] So this is someone that's very highly regarded in the community, in the scientific community.

[386] And you can tell that the way he gives information is much clear and much more concise than when you see him next to Trump.

[387] And I think that was so evident when he would speak and then Trump would speak.

[388] And Trump would contradict him.

[389] There was a, I think it was his chief of staff that wrote us op -ed in USA Today, questioning Fauci's ability to, you know, to do his job, basically, that he's been doing for decades.

[390] And the USA Today editors basically wrote on there that this article does not meet our fact -checking standards.

[391] Wow.

[392] Basically saying, like, this op -ed is so, like, not true that we have to let you know that.

[393] And he's tried several times to undermine Fauci.

[394] And to the point where you also had just an anonymous staffer, so this is stuff that happens.

[395] So he sends out staffers to basically bad mouth sometimes.

[396] And so some of the anonymous staffers said, hey, I have this piece of paper with these 16 points as to why Fauci is, you know, like not the right person for this job.

[397] And the reason why he was doing that is that Fauci was telling the truth.

[398] He's saying this is bad.

[399] It's going to get worse.

[400] You need to practice social distancing.

[401] You need to wear masks.

[402] And Trump's like, eh, we're good.

[403] The U .S. search general said, you don't need masks.

[404] You're good.

[405] And then Trump, who recently just had this whole video about how much he appreciates doctors and nurses, said, oh, well, I've heard from a very important person, which he never names his very important sources.

[406] Keep in mind.

[407] That's a real gas lying technique.

[408] Red flag.

[409] And he said, well, yeah.

[410] And he said these, he said, I've read a lot of masks and PPE stuff is going out the best.

[411] back door of hospitals.

[412] So he's basically accusing hospital staff of stealing PPEs, and that's why they're low on them.

[413] Okay.

[414] Yeah.

[415] So it goes beyond just, he's accusing innocent people doing stuff.

[416] And especially when it comes down to the fact that, yeah, he could have provided more masks for people, but he didn't.

[417] But instead had the nerve to say that he thought the medical personnel were stealing them.

[418] And then goes on a video recently saying, oh, I really appreciate all doctors and nurses.

[419] Well, where were you when they didn't have enough PPEs?

[420] Yeah.

[421] Or when you were insulting New York in their response when there were just people dying nonstop for months, you know.

[422] And he went after Cuomo.

[423] Right.

[424] So, you know, there's a lack of personal responsibility.

[425] And then now he's saying that, oh, well, I got, he said, well, I got COVID from the soldiers.

[426] Or I got him from Gold Star parents.

[427] He went after Gold Star parents.

[428] Now, Gold Star parents are parents who have lost a child in in combat.

[429] Wow, I didn't even know that.

[430] So he has said now on record that he thinks that he got it from Gold Star.

[431] I mean, there's no limit.

[432] There's really no limit.

[433] I even say that.

[434] Like, what is, just so that he could say that it didn't happen at the Amy ACB or whatever we're calling her party.

[435] Yeah, right, right.

[436] Yeah, the Rosegard mask.

[437] He would literally rather insult parents of a dead soldier than take accountability.

[438] Right.

[439] Yeah.

[440] The progression of his COVID from.

[441] when he said he had a positive test and when he had to be hospitalized, is very quick.

[442] So the doctor still has never confirmed when he got his first positive test or when he last tested negative.

[443] That still has not been confirmed.

[444] So it's very possible that he knew he was sick during the debates.

[445] That's what I also read in the New York Times made a timeline that I read this past weekend.

[446] And they said that it's very likely that he attended also a fundraising event knowing that he was feeling under the weather and that someone else who had traveled with him on Air Force One had just tested positive, which, like, of course.

[447] And he still continues to completely downplay the virus and gaslight us again saying, this is not a big deal.

[448] You get it.

[449] You beat it, whatever.

[450] When 200 and 10.

[451] When I think I'm immune.

[452] He said, I'm immune.

[453] Sorry.

[454] Oh, my gosh.

[455] No. But that's something else that they do, too.

[456] They'll make it look like they're Superman.

[457] Now, this man is access to health care that you and I would never receive.

[458] Never.

[459] He got a cocktail of drugs or I think it's antibodies.

[460] I believe it was from a donor in Singapore, I think is what I read.

[461] And he got that immediately.

[462] That's something that you and I would never have access to.

[463] Even if we were in dire circumstances in a hospital, he wouldn't have access to that.

[464] And to say like, oh, I think I'm immune to it, that buys into the whole narcissist gas lighter thing of of if you're strong you're you are better than everybody and if you you know this gets into real ableism kind of issues and that you saw when he made fun of the disabled reporter I mean his whole thing is like yeah you have to be a specimen like a physical specimen of amazingness you know to qualify as worthy in his book and so you saw that when he's like I think I'm immune to it and, you know, I'm, doctors have never seen anything like it, you know, all this hyperbole and stuff.

[465] And again, he had access to medical care.

[466] You and I would never receive.

[467] And we, and he still sounds pretty sick.

[468] So it really, all this, all this stuff I wrote about chapter six, unfortunately, is happening.

[469] And I wish it wasn't.

[470] But this is usually, throughout history, if you look at autocrats, this is usually how things go.

[471] That they reach a point where even their most ardent supporters, against them and the people that were their yes men turn against them.

[472] So I think we're getting to that point now.

[473] Again, it took a really long time for it to happen.

[474] And there's still people that are, again, Mitch McConnell, another one, where he had many opportunities to say, this is not right.

[475] And this goes against the Constitution and everything, but he was silent.

[476] Or he actually backed Trump up.

[477] And now they're trying to push through the Supreme Court nominee when in the past, you know, They basically blocked, well, they did block Obama's nomination for the Supreme Court.

[478] And they are doing all this stuff.

[479] They spent so many days like holding up acts.

[480] They held up the Violence Against Women Act.

[481] That froze and sent it because they wouldn't approve it.

[482] So, I mean, there's all sorts of stuff that's been held up that was for the betterment of the people, especially women in domestic violence situations.

[483] The Violence Against Women Act said that, if you're in a domestic violence situation, you do not lose your job if you have to take time off of work to find safe living conditions or safe place to live.

[484] So that is now gone because it froze in the Senate.

[485] So they take all this time to not push things through, but yet they're going to try and push through a Supreme Court nominee with, you know, just a couple months left if he doesn't win the election.

[486] So there's this real, it's a really immoral way to do things.

[487] And again, that people that can call them out on this aren't the people in power.

[488] So I think that also brings up a lot of issues for people about their own abuse and that feeling of helplessness that no one's listening or that no one's doing anything.

[489] I think people, there are a lot of good people that are trying to do something about it.

[490] And one of the best things we can do is vote and fight voter suppression.

[491] If you go to a voting place and they have a touchscreen, ask for a paper ballot.

[492] If they don't have a way to process a paper ballot.

[493] You ask for one and you follow along before you submit your touchscreen, you follow through with your own ballot to make sure that the items that you selected are correct.

[494] So there are a lot of issues now Georgia has just come up with new software for their voting machines that was not, I think it was invented.

[495] So first you got to do paper ballot.

[496] If you can't do paper ballot, then you do confirm your touchscreen items with a paper, you know, with like a mock ballot.

[497] So there's all these things you can do.

[498] You can contact, I think it's like vote 411 .org, and you can look up and see if your voter registration is active.

[499] I have the experience of going to a polling location where I have my voters card with me, but I was not registered on the rolls.

[500] And I was told it would take up to 30 minutes to get a supervisor to come over to straighten it out.

[501] And I said, fine, I'm staying right here.

[502] Because one of the things that happens is sometimes is that they'll tell you you have to wait and wait and wait and they figure you're just going to go, home.

[503] After that, I did vote by mail, but I waited the 30 minutes and they had to do this whole like thing to get me on the voter roll.

[504] And here I had my voter card in my hand and my ID.

[505] So make sure you checked and see if you're even registered.

[506] I would recommend that people do.

[507] So there are things we can do.

[508] Maybe we should get into that too, is that what can we do when we're feeling hopeless?

[509] You don't have to watch the debates.

[510] I tell people, again, I wrote about this on Forbes.

[511] If watching the debates gave you flashbacks or really heightened your anxiety or just made you feel pretty helpless.

[512] You don't need to watch them.

[513] You don't need to watch them.

[514] If you decide you're going to vote a certain way, the debates probably aren't going to change that.

[515] You're not missing out on anything.

[516] So just don't watch them.

[517] We have to really practice good self -care.

[518] And that means being this radical self -care where we are so good to ourselves.

[519] And we treat ourselves like the most special beings on earth, which we all are.

[520] So we really need to make sure we're getting up sleep, we're eating okay, we're talking to people if we need help, consult a mental health professional, take some time to do fun stuff.

[521] I know that's hard too when you're really not feeling good, but I think that we really need to look at the fact that, you know, too, that the pandemic, it's gone on way longer than it should have or end, but it is temporary and eventually it is going to end.

[522] We don't know when, but it is going to end eventually.

[523] And again, it's not the way that it should have been done or how we'd like it, but it is temporary.

[524] And again, you encourage people to vote.

[525] I think when we do things where we take action against kind of this authoritarian kind of government that's happened, I think that we tend to be healthier for it when we feel like we can do something.

[526] Otherwise, we just have this feeling of helplessness and it really can kind of get us stuck.

[527] Absolutely.

[528] Thank you so much for highlighting all of that.

[529] I will absolutely link to some resources to help folks check their voter registration.

[530] If you're at all in doubt, I'm in California, I went to the website, I moved this year, I know I'm registered because I voted many times, but I wanted to make sure that I was going to have an updated address in the system.

[531] The system couldn't find me. So I just followed, looked at the instructions, it said, just go ahead and re -register.

[532] And thankfully I got my, because I'm in California in a mail ballot this week.

[533] By the time this episode airs, we're going to be really on the last minute timeline unless you're in the two states that allow you to register up into the final day.

[534] So I will absolutely link to that as well.

[535] But if you have any doubt, please register to vote.

[536] Your employer in many states are obligated to give you time off to vote.

[537] If they are trying to make you wait, stay as long as you can.

[538] I will personally be getting my, I got my mail -in ballot.

[539] I'll be dropping it in person at the polling location myself.

[540] But it's really, really important.

[541] And I am hopeful for the future.

[542] And I am encouraged by the amount of people that I'm seeing get involved in our political process and voting for the first time.

[543] Even Shaquille O 'Neal came out last night, I heard Shaq, saying he had never voted in his life, which I thought was a very brave thing to admit publicly, especially as a celebrity.

[544] And he said, and I will be voting this year.

[545] And I, you know, I've been surprised by people I have.

[546] in my own life, like learning that they hadn't voted before.

[547] And they're voting this year.

[548] And I think 2020 has really highlighted how important the people in power are, especially when we need them in big, huge ways.

[549] And our children need them.

[550] We need to feel safe.

[551] And that's the part that really has made it hard for me to stay silent is the future for my children.

[552] And the decisions that politicians are making and the things that are being covered in the Supreme Court.

[553] Like, that's my children's future.

[554] I miss the feeling of being bored by government.

[555] Do you know what I mean?

[556] The span used to be so boring.

[557] Right.

[558] Yeah.

[559] Or you go a whole day without hearing anything about the federal government.

[560] You're like, that's cool.

[561] Okay.

[562] You know, like, there's a, there's a stability in there.

[563] And that's what helps make the country run is that there's a stability.

[564] Yeah.

[565] I mean, alongside all of us as citizens.

[566] But there's a clockwork to.

[567] it that when the clockwork goes off and things get tripped up we've seen what happens it's a very disconcerting feeling especially you know for the older folks like i'm thinking my parents generation baby boomers this is really uh this has really caused a lot of depression anxiety because first you know the government that you have known since you're a child is no longer what you recognize you know they went through nixon and everything but this is nixon pales in comparison to what's going on now.

[568] And also, you know, they've been cut off from their grandkids because of the pandemic.

[569] You know, there's a real issue with loneliness.

[570] I'm talking like 70 on up.

[571] And so there's, there are a lot of people that have just gotten to the point where they're feeling really disheartened.

[572] And it's going to take us some time to heal is going to take some time.

[573] You know, if, if Trump does not win this election and Biden wins, it's going to take us some time to heal.

[574] And, you know, be prepared for that.

[575] Things are not going to change overnight.

[576] It's going to take some time to rebuild.

[577] And also, keep in mind that if you're being told about ballots being stolen, which isn't true, or voter fraud, which isn't true, they're documented studies on that that's not true.

[578] The purpose is to make you feel like your vote doesn't count.

[579] And that's voter suppression.

[580] And there's a site that I'll tell you probably, I'll look it up after we talk, but there's a site you can report voter suppression to.

[581] And they will literally come out to you.

[582] If you're staying in the whole line.

[583] They're trying to shut the poll location doors.

[584] They will come out and they will speak to the poll people.

[585] So there are ways that you can, you have support.

[586] But, you know, we really need to speak with our votes.

[587] There's so many countries that don't get the right to vote.

[588] And so like I said, it's a sacred right of ours as, as U .S. citizens.

[589] So, you know, people that live here, we need to speak out.

[590] And if someone tells you that your vote doesn't count, it does.

[591] We've gotten into, you know, elections where, like maybe not presidential, we've gotten into local state elections where it comes down to like a few hundred votes between people.

[592] So your vote does count.

[593] And I would really read up on what voter suppression is.

[594] And there was somebody that's Canadian on Twitter that said they automatically vote.

[595] They don't have to register.

[596] And her point was that, you know, the U .S. has gotten so used to voter suppression because her thought was that registering to vote is a form of voter suppression.

[597] I was thinking, you know what?

[598] She might be right.

[599] Because how come we all just don't get a right to vote when we show up with her ID or something?

[600] You know, isn't that odd that we have to register?

[601] I never even thought about it.

[602] No, I know.

[603] I know, right?

[604] And so because we've gotten so used to that.

[605] So look out for ways that voter suppression happens.

[606] A lot of countries get a whole day off for the entire country to go vote.

[607] So there are a lot of ways of voter suppression happens or like Texas where they have one ballot would turn in for a county, which means that Houston, the county that Houston's in only is one ballot return location.

[608] Wow.

[609] And the purpose is to, again, to disenfranchise you from voting.

[610] So it's so important that we speak out and we encourage others to vote too.

[611] So important and stay safe while you're doing it too.

[612] So if you're voting on location, make sure you wear a mask, keep your social distance, all that stuff.

[613] Because we need to start believing in science.

[614] That's the other thing.

[615] Yeah.

[616] Is that when you have people telling you that science isn't real, we have a lot of good, hardworking people that are helping us try to figure out what COVID is, how it works.

[617] They figured out, you know, the DNA of different strains of it.

[618] So there are a lot of people that have worked their whole lives to be able to do the research that they're doing.

[619] So we really need to listen to them and believe them.

[620] And I think that's really important that, you know, again, these are people who have given up their entire lives to being epidemiologists, to being immunologists to doing the best work they can to help everybody.

[621] So listen to them.

[622] Listen to them.

[623] I'm Dan Tversky.

[624] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[625] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[626] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[627] She's like, I can't.

[628] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[629] Like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[630] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[631] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[632] Well, you were holding something back.

[633] Intentionally.

[634] Yeah, yeah.

[635] Well, yeah.

[636] No, it's hysteria.

[637] It's all in your head.

[638] It's not physical.

[639] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[640] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[641] Or is it something else entirely?

[642] Something's wrong here.

[643] Something's not right.

[644] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[645] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[646] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery or wherever you get your podcasts.

[647] You can binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[648] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[649] I'm Sachi Cole.

[650] And I'm Sarah Hagey.

[651] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left.

[652] once a facade falls away.

[653] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[654] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[655] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[656] Follow scam influencers on the Wondrey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[657] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad free right now on Wondry Plus.

[658] Listen to them.

[659] Like Fauci.

[660] Fauci has no reason to not be truthful about stuff.

[661] He really doesn't, right?

[662] Like there's no impetus for him to lie to people.

[663] And I think like I said, you can tell when he's talking to people that he's being honest with people.

[664] And if he doesn't know something he says he doesn't know, that's the other thing.

[665] gas liars, narcissists will never say, I don't know.

[666] They'll talk around it, but they'll never say, I don't know.

[667] Or they'll never apologize either.

[668] Or I was going to say, or admit any sort of wrongdoing at any point.

[669] Or if you look at Mike Pence, for example, I asked my husband the other day, I said, has he ever admitted that Trump could have done something differently?

[670] Not even that he did it wrong, but just like, you know what?

[671] That's a good point.

[672] Like, I haven't seen that from either of them.

[673] And I thought it was really telling in the VP debate when Pence brought up something that had a case that involved Biden, Obama, and Harris said, you know what, I know they regret that and that's something that they, you know, like expressed remorse and like validated.

[674] Like, yeah, that didn't, that was not handled correctly.

[675] That was not okay.

[676] The feeling of it is different and it is like you said, just so incredibly important to vote.

[677] And one of the things that I wanted to talk about that you highlight in your chapter on page 99 towards the bottom, you say they turn citizens against marginalized groups.

[678] Gaslighting politicians compare their opponents to the worst evils.

[679] These types of politicians feed off of people's fear.

[680] If you turn people against a particular group, be it a political party, race, age, or culture, by inciting fear, you get those people to align with you.

[681] You then also conveniently have a target for all the woes you claim are happening in your country.

[682] And when I look at 2020 and George Floyd and Brianna Taylor and all of the things that have happened and the fact that at our presidential debate, our president still was not willing to denounce white supremacy and white supremacist and would not even say it.

[683] Call them to action.

[684] Literally called them to action and then tried to pretend, which this totally reminded me and my dad, and then tried to pretend, I don't even know who the proud boys are.

[685] It's like you literally called them to action.

[686] Like, who do you think we are?

[687] How stupid do you think we are?

[688] What do you say?

[689] Stand back and what was the second part?

[690] Stand back and stand by, which my husband said.

[691] Yes.

[692] And my husband said he just addressed them like he's their leader.

[693] And I said, because he fucking is.

[694] Right.

[695] I was so mad.

[696] It's just like, it's so telling.

[697] And if you are, if you are considering yourself, a person that cares about a quality in any way, if you do not see our president's behavior and his add a towards, towards black, indigenous, and people of color, since even before he took office, you're just not trying to see it.

[698] I'm sorry.

[699] You are just looking at racism and saying, it doesn't matter enough to me to change my vote.

[700] And you can send your mad emails to me, not Stephanie on that.

[701] Well, let me tell you what I do with those emails.

[702] So, you know, I wrote an op -ed for USA Today that says Trump's in an abusive relationship with the U .S. I believe I wrote that, you know, when the book came out, it's around 2018.

[703] And also other things I've written on, you know, like we met through Twitter, the stuff I've written on Twitter, I'll get some pretty horrible voicemails, emails, and what I'll do now in tweets, and what I'll do is I will post them because my feeling is we need to bring lightness into the things that are usually hidden.

[704] And when people have been attacked like that online, you know, people usually feel embarrassed about her shame.

[705] But no, I say, you know what?

[706] If you're willing to put your name on this, it's going out.

[707] So I will post it.

[708] I'll post a screenshot online.

[709] I may blur out some names, but it's interesting.

[710] People leave their name, their address, their phone number on these emails.

[711] I mean, they usually call me by a nickname, which I find really interesting.

[712] And this is kind of true narcissists, too.

[713] You know, they don't call you by your name.

[714] So like you said, like, can I call you Dr. Sargis or Stephanie?

[715] That's like kind of what we're supposed to do with people, right?

[716] Like, what name do you want to be known by?

[717] And they will call me Steph, Steffy.

[718] And that's something that only my family can do or my close friends.

[719] So it's a way of like kind of quote, unquote, putting me in my place.

[720] But what I'll do is I may blur out somebody's name, but I will post the email.

[721] Or if it's a Facebook thing and they put their name on it, I'll just post it as is with their name on it.

[722] Because I think that that needs to come to light.

[723] And, you know, I think when Twitter said, well, no, nobody can say anything bad about the president, you know, hoping they'll die and everything.

[724] And, you know, we'll take that off if there's any threats.

[725] And I'm thinking, where were you when a bunch of women reported stuff to you?

[726] You know, because there have been a lot of women, particularly women of color, that have said to Twitter, you know, I'm getting threats.

[727] And Twitter was like, yeah, this isn't serious enough.

[728] So that's part of the issue, too, is our social media platforms.

[729] We need to hold them accountable for allowing things like white nationalist groups to post or Facebook.

[730] There's the whole issue with Russia, which is in the book too, but they don't move fast enough to condemn, you know, hate groups.

[731] So we need to hold social media accountable.

[732] You know, when this is all kind of more settled, which, you know, again, if Biden wins, this will start healing.

[733] But we need to hold social media accountable for what they allow to be posted.

[734] Yes.

[735] Because that can sway people.

[736] And again, when a social media platform does not take death threats against the users, seriously, we've got a problem.

[737] We've got a big problem.

[738] A big problem.

[739] And I'm so glad you brought that up.

[740] And it is in your book.

[741] And again, it's like, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think like, how was this written two years ago?

[742] Like you, there's, I know there's a part where you talk about social media.

[743] And I think we could do a whole episode on how social media gaslights us in those algorithms.

[744] Remember when we used to see what we wanted to see in order of time it was released?

[745] Remember that guys?

[746] No, social media has decided we don't get to determine what we see.

[747] I just think the work that you've done and this book, like I've recommended it and I will keep recommending it.

[748] I've listened to it on Audible like five times.

[749] I've read it at least three times.

[750] I ordered the print version.

[751] No, I just, I really, really like it really changed my life.

[752] When I read this book, I was working, I think, on the second season and third season of the podcast.

[753] And I had been going through something personally.

[754] And I couldn't understand why I was so hurt and I couldn't figure it out and I was just spinning and I was so depressed and I literally felt suicidal because of the way this person made me feel about myself and I read your book and I was like so validated and I've been able to like pay that forward to so many like listeners and I just think like anybody who has been in an abusive relationship should read this book.

[755] No one is immune to gas light.

[756] I think that's really important.

[757] Everybody knows no one is immune to this.

[758] You may think that you're you got a high emotional quotient and you are pretty street smart and you are vulnerable to gaslighting.

[759] Everyone is.

[760] And it's just, you know, people, people like this will seek out your weak spots.

[761] We all have weak spots.

[762] We all have those, those tender parts of us that we really don't want exposed, right?

[763] And so people, they will go after those.

[764] So, and that could be, you know, like you said, you know, a variety of settings.

[765] We friends, family, work, politicians.

[766] Yeah.

[767] So, yeah, And so if you're saying, all that can never happen to me, it probably has already.

[768] You know, so I think it's important to look at that, that again, you know, no one is immune.

[769] Absolutely.

[770] I'm so glad you highlighted that.

[771] Thank you so much.

[772] And lastly, the overwhelming thing that I heard from listeners when they heard that I was speaking with you today is to tell you thank you on behalf of like our entire community.

[773] The work that you've done has really saved.

[774] You're going to make me cry, Tiffany.

[775] I'm serious.

[776] I got a message from a woman who said the information that she heard from you that I shared on my podcast and sharing your book helped her recognize that she was in an abusive relationship with her parents and started to heal because of the work you've done.

[777] And I know there are tons of other people.

[778] Oh, that means so much to me because especially now with how things have been going, helper people have had a lot of people that are in distress.

[779] And so knowing that someone read the book and it changed their life, makes such a huge difference, especially with the amount of people are suffering right now.

[780] So thank you so much.

[781] I really appreciate.

[782] And you're making me cry.

[783] I do that a lot.

[784] Not intentional, but I'm just, I like to pay where it's due.

[785] They're happy.

[786] They're definitely happy tears.

[787] I'm so glad that people are finding that there's hope after having these kind of people in your life.

[788] Yes.

[789] And you can rebuild your, and, you know, I always say, you know, the best revenge is a life well lived, you know.

[790] Absolutely.

[791] go out there and, you know, you deserve the best, everyone, and, you know, you are wonderful people.

[792] And thank you so much.

[793] I really appreciate it.

[794] Okay.

[795] Where can, I'm going to link to all the things when I go through and edit the episode, all the websites, and like I usually do.

[796] I'm going to note all the sources and stuff.

[797] But where can people find you?

[798] So it's Stephanie Sarkis .com, and that's S is and Sam, A -R -K -I -S -E -S -N -S -N -M.

[799] And the podcast is Talking Brains.

[800] There's a link to that on the website and also anywhere the podcasts are.

[801] On Twitter, I'm Stephanie Sarkis.

[802] On Instagram, I'm Sarkis Ph .D. I think on TikTok, I'm Stephanie Sarkis or Sarkis Ph .D. But that's basically like videos of my dogs.

[803] So here's my dog videos.

[804] Very important work as well.

[805] Very important.

[806] Very important, yes.

[807] And then let's see, on YouTube, I'm Stephanie Sarkis.

[808] And on Facebook, I'm Stephanie Sarkis Ph .D. So I think those are the main ones.

[809] But I can figure out my TikTok.

[810] Amazing.

[811] I think it's Sarkis Ph .D. I'll find it and make sure the right one's linked.

[812] And I love that you're on TikTok.

[813] That's so hip.

[814] Thank you again, Stephanie, so much for being on the show.

[815] Oh, you are welcome.

[816] My pleasure.

[817] My pleasure.

[818] Something Was Wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[819] Music on this episode from Glad Rags.

[820] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[821] If you'd like to help support the growth of something was wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your your family, friends, and followers, and support at patreon .com slash something was wrong.

[822] Something Was Wrong now has a free virtual survivor support forum at something was wrong .com.

[823] You can remain as anonymous as you need.

[824] Thank you so much for listening.

[825] If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[826] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon music.

[827] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.

[828] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[829] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[830] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[831] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel and route to the next location.

[832] What happens next depends on who you ask.

[833] Was it a crime of passion?

[834] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[835] This was clearly an intentional act.

[836] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[837] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[838] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover.

[839] up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[840] Everyone had an opinion.

[841] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[842] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[843] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[844] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

[845] Join Wondery Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.