Bonus: Armchair Stories

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to whatever in the hell this is.

[1] Well, yes, we know more after having done this.

[2] Right.

[3] It's starting to solidify.

[4] It is.

[5] And it's a work in progress.

[6] But we will let you in on the work in progress.

[7] So I posed a question in Monday's fact check, which was, God, I wonder if any guy was ever over imbibed on erectile dysfunction medicine and was uncontrollably aroused and very embarrassed.

[8] In a male.

[9] In a male.

[10] Massage therapy situation.

[11] Yes.

[12] Yes.

[13] And then we got responses from armcherrys, which was wonderful.

[14] Thank you guys for anyone who wrote in.

[15] And then certainly the people that participated in this.

[16] So I just want to set a trigger warning.

[17] A couple of the stories I was getting like a little panicky thinking about being in the situation.

[18] So that is a warning that needs to be probably taken seriously.

[19] Yes.

[20] When you told it, it's like life is funny and on massage tables.

[21] And the truth is it can just get very serious.

[22] We got an array of stories.

[23] Yeah, we got some funny.

[24] We got some scary.

[25] We got the whole gamut.

[26] That's the way it goes.

[27] That's the way it goes.

[28] And then, of course, I think in future questions, I'll be a little more meticulous.

[29] Think through what I think is funny, how it's rarely going to be funny in that way.

[30] Yeah.

[31] And I don't think all of our questions necessarily, like all of these episodes will be funny.

[32] Some will be all sad or some will be all touching.

[33] Well, this one's all about touching.

[34] Oh, my God.

[35] We're already at the touching.

[36] Okay.

[37] Well, so please enjoy this exploration into weird massage stories.

[38] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

[39] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[40] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[41] Do you want to sing a tune or something?

[42] We don't have a theme song.

[43] Oh.

[44] Okay, great.

[45] We don't have a theme song for this new show.

[46] So here I go, go, go.

[47] We're going to ask some random questions.

[48] With the help of arm cherries, we'll get some suggestions.

[49] On the fly I rhyme dish, on the fly I rhyme dish, enjoy.

[50] Megalith.

[51] Sheesh.

[52] Hello.

[53] Oh, wonderful.

[54] Can you hear us?

[55] Yeah, here, Grand.

[56] How you doing?

[57] Good.

[58] Are you Danish?

[59] No, I'm English.

[60] I just escaped here a couple of years ago.

[61] What are you doing in Denmark?

[62] I'm an artist.

[63] So my lady's from here.

[64] And I guess I timed that pretty well because it kind of linked up with escaping Brexit Britain.

[65] Oh, I've been here a little over a year now.

[66] It's a lovely place.

[67] Okay, so this is important.

[68] It needs a setup.

[69] You're responding to perhaps an embarrassing massage experience.

[70] Set the stage for us.

[71] Okay, all right.

[72] It was late 2016.

[73] I headed over with my now ex -wife, headed over to South India for our honeymoon.

[74] Yeah, it took a couple days to get there, you know, traveling from London and all.

[75] And we settled in Kerala.

[76] Oh, my God.

[77] This is such a ding, ding, ding, ding.

[78] You know, at the time being a struggling artist, massages weren't something I could really afford too often in London.

[79] Sure.

[80] So, you know, going to these parts of the world, one of the positives, I guess, one of the privileges, should you say, is that I can actually afford a massage pretty regularly.

[81] So that was kind of on the top of the list.

[82] It was like, we're going here on our honeymoon.

[83] of a massage while we're at it.

[84] One of the first things we'll do.

[85] So settled in, met our host.

[86] We were staying in a kind of a home share.

[87] We told him we're after the massages.

[88] Can you help us?

[89] We're in this little village.

[90] He's like, absolutely.

[91] I know this place is just up the road.

[92] I'll book you in and away we go.

[93] He was nice enough.

[94] He put us both on the back of his mopeds.

[95] Pause for one second to enjoy the fact that the massage is being put together by the host of the house.

[96] That's novel.

[97] And it's down the road.

[98] We don't know.

[99] It could be.

[100] be at a house.

[101] And then you're taking a scooter there, three on one scooter.

[102] So already, this is a very unconventional experience with a massage.

[103] Yeah, indeed.

[104] And even more so when we got there and I guess it was just clear it wasn't a spa.

[105] Okay.

[106] Describe it.

[107] Was it a house?

[108] It felt like a bit more like a community center space.

[109] There was a lot of guys sitting outside.

[110] It was, you know, pretty rundown.

[111] And it seemed like a bit of a center, a hive, more of activity.

[112] So we go in and the lovely host goes in and chats to them and I guess explains what we're after and this very short moustached smiley fella comes out and you know tells us he can help us and I think at that point the missus was like you go first you know let's see how that plays out and if it's good then maybe she'll have a massage so I got brought into this room and I remember that at the time it was like something out of a sore movie oh god yeah Yeah, yeah.

[113] There was...

[114] Like standing water in places?

[115] Damp, dark.

[116] Okay.

[117] Saw the horror movie.

[118] Yes, yes.

[119] I'm picturing like some water and some buckets.

[120] It was like a metal slab table in the middle of the room.

[121] And again, you know, I think a lot of people at that point would have kind of gone, yeah, you know, I'm all right.

[122] But hey, this is just how they do it here.

[123] I'm in a new place.

[124] You didn't want to be racist.

[125] Yeah, you're like making sure you're not being racist at any point.

[126] Yeah.

[127] And yeah, the missus is literally just sitting just outside the room, just on a little chair, waiting her turn.

[128] And the fellow comes back in and, you know, very smiley, very excited, I guess.

[129] And he just says, you know, take all of your clothes off and lie on your back.

[130] And there's no sheet.

[131] There's no sheet on the table.

[132] No. Also, starting on back, just again, just to point out, very unexpected.

[133] Yeah, I've had massages before.

[134] And, you know, like still at this point, I think, presumed a towel was coming.

[135] You know, it's a cover.

[136] And, yeah, so he left the room, allowed me to get naked and rather uncertain but going with it.

[137] I, yeah, just kind of lay there.

[138] And he came back in and, yeah, there was no towel.

[139] Oh, boy.

[140] So the idea of a relaxing massage, that was out the window.

[141] My guess now is like, you're just trying to remember all these details because all you're getting out of this now is a good story.

[142] Exactly.

[143] And, of course, in my head, all it is is don't get an erection.

[144] don't get erections from the off.

[145] You know, it's bad enough, the idea of if there was a tail there.

[146] But, yeah, nothing good is coming from this.

[147] So he puts all the oil down and starts massaging.

[148] And, I mean, I guess this goes on 10 to 15 minutes of me trying to repress whatever this fear was.

[149] But this thing might happen.

[150] And it didn't.

[151] I bet that cold table helped.

[152] Yeah, I think at that point, you know, I was just reaching for anything that could help.

[153] And, yeah, maybe the cold table saved me. that point.

[154] He then says, you know, turn over.

[155] I'm like, great.

[156] I can relax a little bit.

[157] I'm now having a back massage.

[158] My penis isn't on display.

[159] And maybe I can enjoy this.

[160] Well, as much as can be enjoyed.

[161] I like a firm massage.

[162] This wasn't firm.

[163] This was definitely more on the side of central than anything.

[164] He does that.

[165] And then he tells me to roll back over.

[166] Oh, onto my back.

[167] So I thought I'd obviously escaped this, but it turns out there was round two.

[168] Oh, wow, because he missed a spot.

[169] He definitely missed a spot because he rectified that because what he then did was starting, you know, legs, arms, all the way up my body, back and forth.

[170] And then I'm not exaggerating.

[171] He went from my feet, up my legs, up my chest, and then just straight down over my penis.

[172] Oh, wow.

[173] And he must have repeated this five or six times.

[174] Oh, my.

[175] Up, down, down, down.

[176] Round and roan we go.

[177] Okay, so here would be me. I'd be like, okay, I don't want this.

[178] I don't want to hurt this guy's feeling.

[179] This might be standard.

[180] All my, like, codependency would have just been raging.

[181] Like, I'm going to have to let this guy jerk me off if that's what needs to happen.

[182] If that's the polite Western thing to do, that's what's going to have to happen, I guess.

[183] Oh, my God.

[184] No, it is because.

[185] Is this normal?

[186] I don't want to be rude.

[187] I'm just being respectful.

[188] Should I leave?

[189] Oh, wow.

[190] And yeah, I don't care who you are.

[191] If you've got nice, soft, oily hands and you're doing that to a man's penis, things are going to happen.

[192] Surely.

[193] On the first day of my honeymoon, bear in mind, with my wife sitting outside the room.

[194] And you're in there with just a rager.

[195] Yeah.

[196] No, town.

[197] Did he seem like, was a smile growing as it was growing?

[198] Like, that's what he was after?

[199] Well, I think, yeah, as we found out later on, that was probably a sign of success for him in some degrees, because we weren't finished then.

[200] You know, I'm lying there just in a panic, and he goes to this little jar of, you know, Tiger Barm.

[201] Oh, yeah.

[202] Here we have a product, icy hot.

[203] It burns when you put it on.

[204] It's both to soothe you, but it burns you.

[205] But it wasn't Tiger Barm.

[206] As I remember, it was some sort of red powder.

[207] Oh.

[208] And he took a handful.

[209] He sprinkled it all over my penis and testicles.

[210] Oh, my gosh.

[211] And then cracked his hands and went, massage done.

[212] Good massage.

[213] Oh, surprise.

[214] Yeah, surprise.

[215] Oh, my gosh.

[216] This is so confusing.

[217] He was very sweet.

[218] This is a very confusing experience because, again, for me, I'd be trying to assess intentions the whole time.

[219] Like, is he want to take it here?

[220] Is this for him?

[221] Is this for me?

[222] Is this normal?

[223] Just cultural.

[224] What does it say about me?

[225] honeymoon.

[226] Well, I'm thinking if this was my less than liberal stepdad or whatever, what would have most people have, you know, they probably at some point would have gone, all right, I've had enough fella, you know, that would be for now.

[227] Yeah.

[228] They probably wouldn't have got that far.

[229] They wouldn't have even picked Carolas their honeymoon location.

[230] They would have gone class in Paris.

[231] The ride would have arrived and it was a one seat motorcycle and they said, oh, I guess we can't go because three people shouldn't ride on one motorcycle.

[232] Three people on a It looks like there's nothing there.

[233] I think that red powder is sacred.

[234] My most generous assessment is that he kind of blessed your penis for the things that were coming that night with your bride.

[235] Did he know it was your honeymoon?

[236] I don't know.

[237] Maybe I'll have told him.

[238] I certainly didn't.

[239] The obvious question is when you leave the area and you see your wife, what do you say to her?

[240] Like, you're going to love this?

[241] I do wonder what the female version is.

[242] I do too.

[243] Like, do you blow it through a straw?

[244] She said I came out and I was as white as a ghost.

[245] And I was just in a blind panic saying, we need to leave.

[246] We really, really need to leave.

[247] Yeah.

[248] In fairness, when I told her a little later on, she thought it was the funniest thing she'd ever heard.

[249] Oh, that's spectacular.

[250] Yeah, there's nothing my wife could have enjoyed more than me in that situation.

[251] Absolutely.

[252] I thought you were going to say perhaps, like, when it was all said and done, you know what, I didn't have a single knot that night.

[253] It was the best massage of my life.

[254] was a great massage once the fear passed.

[255] We Googled it.

[256] And the closest thing we could work out, it was a sexual healing massage.

[257] Oh, okay.

[258] Yeah.

[259] I mean, we might be wrong, but that's what we kind of landed on.

[260] I bet it was like a karma sutra.

[261] Blessing.

[262] Yeah.

[263] Getting your muscles really relaxed for those positions.

[264] You have to hold for a very long time.

[265] I'm glad you're saying it, not me. Well, it is my people.

[266] As a sidebar, I should know it as well.

[267] we had had sex literally an hour or two before I'd gone to that massage, and I can only imagine what would have happened if we hadn't.

[268] Oh, my God.

[269] So yes.

[270] Oh, my God.

[271] Two things there.

[272] One is, yes, you could have accidentally orgasmed.

[273] Just gone off.

[274] Yeah, and more powders getting thrown around.

[275] Then he's like, I got to stop this.

[276] Yeah, like kitty litter on an oil spill.

[277] And then also, what a feather in your cap.

[278] You had just had sex.

[279] And then you were still able to achieve erection.

[280] Yeah, I was a young man back then.

[281] Yeah, through.

[282] through not even someone you wanted an erection from.

[283] This is quite a testament to your virility, and I applaud it, Ben.

[284] I'm really proud of you.

[285] I appreciate you putting a positive spin on it, that's.

[286] Oh, my pleasure.

[287] Well, Ben, that was a terrific story, and I can't imagine too many folks have that story.

[288] So the last thing I want to ask you is I kind of romanticized and fantasize about going to Carolla.

[289] What was it like overall?

[290] It was wonderful, except for the fact that we turned up in the middle of a money crisis.

[291] There was a famous decentralization of the banks or something and like 90 % of the money overnight was just made obsolete.

[292] Oh my gosh.

[293] So you couldn't get money.

[294] Like the queues in the ATMs were hours and hours and even then you weren't guaranteed.

[295] So, I mean, we had a wonderful time.

[296] But rather than spending a month there, we did, I think, like a week and a half and then we just went off to Sri Lanka.

[297] But it's an incredible part of the world.

[298] Beautiful.

[299] Monica's father, Ashok, describes it as very beach -like.

[300] He can't stop talking about the, quote, beaches.

[301] Yeah, he loves the beaches.

[302] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[303] They're good.

[304] No, I'm within there.

[305] Well, Ben, that was a blast.

[306] Thanks so much for telling us your story.

[307] No, absolutely.

[308] All right, have a good one, man. Take care, guys.

[309] We've all been there.

[310] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[311] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[312] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[313] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[314] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[315] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[316] Follow Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[317] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon music.

[318] What's up, guys?

[319] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[320] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[321] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[322] And I don't mean just friends.

[323] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[324] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[325] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[326] Hello.

[327] Hi, guys.

[328] Hi.

[329] Are you joining us in a gaming chair?

[330] This seems to be something that is designed for extreme gaming.

[331] Is that accurate?

[332] Yeah, that's true.

[333] Yeah, I do a little bit of streaming.

[334] Oh, wow.

[335] Perfect.

[336] And you do some printing, I see.

[337] We're just going to call out everything.

[338] It's just for the listener.

[339] It's an auditory medium.

[340] We want to let people know what's happening in your world.

[341] Where are you, Michael?

[342] I live in Oshua in Canada.

[343] Oh, no shit.

[344] We're getting like bombarded with Canadians.

[345] We were just at a wedding this weekend with a ton of Canadians.

[346] We just adore you guys.

[347] So nice.

[348] It's just true.

[349] Okay, so you are responding to a prompt, which was some kind of a mix -up or inappropriateness or just some awkwardness maybe in a massage situation.

[350] I've been a massage therapist for nine, ten years now.

[351] And, you know, I've worked in the spa, clinic, private settings.

[352] And I'd definitely say like the spa was where I'd have the worst kind of clientele.

[353] Oh, really?

[354] Yeah.

[355] How fancy is this hotel?

[356] It's well known around the world.

[357] It's pretty fancy.

[358] It was like in the Yorkville area of Toronto.

[359] If you're familiar with that, it's very.

[360] It's where we stayed when we were there performing that area.

[361] I don't remember that.

[362] But at any rate, really quick before we proceed, I sometimes say masseuse, is that offensive?

[363] I should be saying massage therapist, shouldn't I?

[364] Yeah.

[365] I did hear you say that on the podcast.

[366] Tell me why.

[367] I just don't know.

[368] I'm ignorant.

[369] It's just a negative connotation with like rub and tugs.

[370] Oh, okay.

[371] I didn't even know that.

[372] So whenever you say like I'm going to go see a masseuse, a lot of people think that that's what you're going for.

[373] So you would usually say like in Canada, we're called RMTs.

[374] So we're registered massage therapist.

[375] I think in the States, it's LMTs, which are licensed massage therapist.

[376] Or they just go massage therapist.

[377] Okay.

[378] But yeah, masseuse is typically what Robert Kraft would go see.

[379] That's good to know.

[380] Yeah.

[381] So whenever you say like, oh, so you're a masseuse, it might rub people the wrong way.

[382] That's all, yeah.

[383] Then that was the last time I'm ever saying masseuse.

[384] So we're good.

[385] They taught us that in school.

[386] I didn't know that myself personally before that.

[387] And so this spa that I was working at, first off, I didn't know this until I started working there as well.

[388] This spa was kind of well known for gay hookups.

[389] Okay.

[390] And so there was like a forum and guys would be like six, four.

[391] well -built, you know, going to this spa, meet me in the sauna if you're a DTF kind of thing.

[392] Okay.

[393] Yeah, in L .A., we have this too.

[394] It's pretty common at one of the spas I like.

[395] There's a lot of cruising in the locker room, but I love the massage.

[396] And I would say if you ever dealt with more of the attendees, they would be able to speak more to that because our attendee had to throw out a lot of guys.

[397] But whenever I did get a mail who personally requested a mail, it kind of sent off a little bit of a flag, especially if they came by themselves.

[398] At a clinical setting, I never had a problem with that.

[399] I typically knew males were coming in for some sort of a treatment, but at a spa, you're kind of looking to relax a little bit more typically.

[400] Yeah.

[401] So this gentleman, I picked him up, brought him into the room, and we have to go through our assessment or intake forms.

[402] And even before I started that, he's already disrobed.

[403] Okay.

[404] Oh, all right.

[405] Yeah.

[406] He's sending some clear signals.

[407] Yeah, which is already kind of a red flag at the start.

[408] And I said, if you don't mind, just leave a robe on until we're done and I could step out of the room.

[409] And he was like, oh, well, you know, I'm comfortable.

[410] Oh.

[411] Yeah.

[412] Like you're worried about his comfort level.

[413] Yeah.

[414] Yeah, it's great for you, but it's not like the whole party here is comfortable with that, right?

[415] Yeah.

[416] And so I just said, well, you know, just for the intake form, I'd appreciate if you just kept your robe on.

[417] I'll step out soon and, you know, I just want to know what you kind of want to focus on.

[418] He said, let's do full body and focus a lot more on my size.

[419] Oh, this is big red flag number three at this point.

[420] I asked him, is there any particular reason for that?

[421] And he just said that, you know, he works out a lot, which he didn't look like a gentleman that worked out a lot.

[422] But I said, okay, maybe he's new to it.

[423] I don't know.

[424] I just start.

[425] You're giving him a lot of Canadian benefit of the doubt happening right here.

[426] Exactly.

[427] We usually ask, like, is this your first massage?

[428] If not, how long has it been since your last massage?

[429] Why do they ask that?

[430] Because they've asked me that, too.

[431] Yeah, just.

[432] because you want to kind of get somebody's comfort level.

[433] So you want to kind of get a baseline.

[434] If they've had massage before, then you know it's not their first rodeo.

[435] They know to lay face down on the bed.

[436] Yeah.

[437] Like you don't want them to be all tense and uncomfortable, right?

[438] So if you know that it's their first massage, then you can kind of ease them into certain things and explain a little bit more.

[439] Like, I'm going to be doing this now.

[440] I'm going to be doing that now.

[441] Versus if they've had massages before, they kind of know the flow of things.

[442] Yeah.

[443] You just kind of want to get a baseline.

[444] And he was like, like, yeah, I'm a veteran.

[445] I've had so many massages.

[446] I'm fine.

[447] I said, okay.

[448] I step out of the room.

[449] And as I'm stepping out, I just said, I'd like you to start face down in between the sheets.

[450] He said, no problem.

[451] I step out, maybe within 45 seconds, I hear ready.

[452] So I come back in.

[453] This gentleman is face up.

[454] Okay.

[455] On top of all of the sheets.

[456] Spread eagle is cock and balls just sitting out there.

[457] And he had his hands behind his head looking up.

[458] Oh, my.

[459] Towards the door.

[460] Oh, geez.

[461] And I said to him, I was like, sir, I'm going to need you to be faced down.

[462] You're so nice.

[463] Oh, my God.

[464] Well, at this fall, it was basically like clients first.

[465] And they were very, you know, proud of their service.

[466] And you're probably, I'm guessing if I'm you, I'm like, I'm going to send this guy.

[467] so many fucking signs that he's just going to get off this narrative he's on right just be there for regular massage yeah like shake him out of it like but shit's not happening in this one yeah like i mean this is now like red flag two three and i'm already kind of seeing where he's trying to go with this yeah yeah so i step out again i give him some time i re -enter the room i met with a pile of the linen at the foot of the table oh and he's face down like i had asked but completely naked still.

[468] I mean, Dax, you understand.

[469] Typically, men, we splay a little bit.

[470] This guy's spayed quite a bit.

[471] Yeah, you wouldn't be able to put more than a Diet Coke can between our knees when we're laying face down.

[472] Yeah, yeah.

[473] I haven't forbid you were to see my anus.

[474] I'd panic.

[475] We're supposed to have a sheet on top.

[476] Well, yes, great point.

[477] Yes, yes.

[478] This guy, he also was using the pillow for the waist.

[479] Oh, he was propped up.

[480] Yeah, he was getting his haunches.

[481] And how ballsy.

[482] This gentleman chose to tuck himself down.

[483] Okay, great.

[484] So again, it's laying now on the pillow that his hips are also on.

[485] Oh, my gosh.

[486] Like a wedding ring.

[487] It's presented.

[488] Oh, boy.

[489] Before I could say anything, he's telling me that he gets too hot with the sheets on and he would prefer to be this way.

[490] And at this fall, we did use a pretty heavy duvet to kind of tuck everybody in kind of thing.

[491] So they were nice and cozy.

[492] And so I said to him, you know, I understand the duvet can get quite warm.

[493] However, we're still going to need to require the sheets.

[494] for the treatment to continue, I can expose your, you know, your arms and your legs to kind of keep you cool if need be, but the rest of the areas will have to be covered.

[495] And he said he was okay with that as long as he could have as much skin as exposed as possible.

[496] Oh, my God, this guy is just double and dribbling down.

[497] So arrogant.

[498] Did you address the pillow?

[499] Like, bud, you've got the pillow two and a half feet above where it's supposed to be.

[500] Yeah, it's supposed to be under your knees, I thought.

[501] No, no, under your ankles when you're face down.

[502] Well, so when you're face down, we usually have, yeah, the one near the ankles.

[503] And he kind of put that on his hips.

[504] Yeah, put it on the hip.

[505] Because you get so hot in that blanket.

[506] And again, we're supposed to have a sheet over it.

[507] So you're actually not supposed to be directly on the pillow.

[508] But again, because he removed all the linen.

[509] Now he's fully on the pillow.

[510] He's raw dog in the table.

[511] Yeah, yeah.

[512] Okay.

[513] And so we go on, we finish the treatment.

[514] You got all the way through a treatment with him.

[515] I actually did end up ending it a little bit early.

[516] because we had him face down.

[517] We finished that part.

[518] When we turned him over, he kept putting his hand under this sheet and kind of adjust in himself.

[519] And again, because we just have the sheet, not the full linen like we normally would, it's now outlined.

[520] Oh, okay.

[521] And he's starting to get a wreck.

[522] Oh.

[523] Especially because he wanted me to work on his thigh.

[524] Aye, aye.

[525] Because of all of his strenuous exercise.

[526] And so I said to the gentleman, I said, unfortunately, I'm going to step out of the room right now.

[527] I'm going to give you a chance to calm down.

[528] I use the word calm down.

[529] Yeah, yeah.

[530] It's polite and it's humiliating, which I like.

[531] Well, then he said, oh, it's okay.

[532] Don't worry.

[533] I'm just enjoying it.

[534] And this is how I'm reacting.

[535] And I said, I can understand that massage in that specific area or near that area can be, you know, triggering.

[536] Arousing.

[537] However, I can't continue the rest of the treatment if this is how this is going to play out.

[538] So I'm going to step out of the room and I'll give you a chance to calm down.

[539] Oh, my God.

[540] is brutal.

[541] The nicest massage therapist on earth.

[542] Oh, my God.

[543] As I re -enter, I could see that nothing had really kind of adjusted.

[544] I said, okay, I'm going to step out again, give you a few more minutes.

[545] Oh, my God.

[546] This guy has no shame.

[547] If I ended the treatment early, then I would be questioned by my manager, what happened.

[548] And so I came back.

[549] He finally had it in between his legs like he should have.

[550] And at this point, you couldn't really see anything.

[551] So we finished the treatment.

[552] And as I'm explaining to him, like, you know, take your time getting off the table, yada, yada, he's already up off the table again.

[553] She fell to the ground and he's walking over to grab his robe.

[554] And he's like, yeah, we can walk out together.

[555] Don't worry about her.

[556] Oh, this guy's terrible.

[557] Yeah.

[558] I hate this guy.

[559] This is a predator.

[560] It is.

[561] It is.

[562] Were you like, okay, what do I do if X, Y, and Z?

[563] So in school, they teach you about this, especially because it is a little bit more female -dominated.

[564] They bring that up in the classes to educate the women and also the men, but it's less likely that it'll happen to us versus them.

[565] Sure.

[566] And you don't really expect it to happen because, again, I'm a guy.

[567] Yeah.

[568] It's not really in the back of my head all the time.

[569] Right.

[570] But then once all these red flags started popping up, I was like, okay, we kind of need to start building an action plan here and figuring out what's going to happen if need be.

[571] And that's why I kept trying to just give him as many chances as possible to kind of rectify himself.

[572] erectify himself now when it's over can you at least red flag him like at a bar do you go up and tell the staff like this dude just wants a hand job he was getting nude in front of me every two seconds yeah and our intake forms we write our notes we can request that they never see us again yeah we can give information so if they do go to another therapist then the therapist can look at the health history form and kind of see what had happened in the previous treatment yeah but that's laborious like you wouldn't have read uh up on this dude.

[573] You don't have time, right?

[574] You're running from massage to massage.

[575] You're not going to go pull his record and just see if he's been a dirt bag before.

[576] Exactly.

[577] This was maybe 2015 I was there.

[578] Even on the computer, like the concierge can either put like a little note in the file or something like that.

[579] So even if you don't actually go and get their file, when you're checking your schedule, you can see that there's a note.

[580] Ah.

[581] Kind of explaining this type of behavior and this type of person.

[582] Well, these intake notes, are they ever dirty?

[583] Is it ever like, she was so lot.

[584] Oh, I was going to say like this person stinks or they have an infection.

[585] No, typically that would be unprofessional to write that kind of thing.

[586] Yeah.

[587] You could definitely talk to the other therapists about the client.

[588] I applaud your integrity throughout this whole thing.

[589] I mean, I would want this person to be roughed up when they left.

[590] I'm very triggered by this person.

[591] Men are the pits.

[592] They are.

[593] Men are the pits.

[594] Or the worst.

[595] On that note, I would say I'd have a lot more worse experiences with female clients than male clients.

[596] Tell me. They're a lot more bold.

[597] Oh my God.

[598] Wait, we need more.

[599] Yes.

[600] Especially at the spa.

[601] You know, it's kind of their day.

[602] Yeah.

[603] You did quotes.

[604] It's like as if it's their bachelorette party or their birthday.

[605] Yeah.

[606] There was times where like, you know, they'd ask for breast massage or pletoral massage.

[607] Has it ever happened?

[608] Did any of them store a lot of stress in their vulva?

[609] Not that I ran into.

[610] Okay.

[611] So they never got that bonkers.

[612] Or what's the most bonkers a woman's ever?

[613] I mean, a breast massage, that's a bold ask.

[614] Well, yeah, a lot of them would pull down the sheet so that their breasts would become exposed.

[615] Wow.

[616] And one woman I actually had masturbating on the table.

[617] Oh, my God.

[618] While I was close to the end of the treatment, I was doing her head, neck, and shoulders.

[619] And I could just see her hand in the sheets.

[620] Swirling up around.

[621] Oh, my God.

[622] DJing.

[623] And what was your reaction to that?

[624] Because, again, you probably let it roll.

[625] Well, at that point, when you're at the head, neck and shoulders, you're kind of like five minutes towards the end of the treatment.

[626] Sure, sure.

[627] What's the point?

[628] What am I going to do?

[629] Cut this five minutes short?

[630] Yeah.

[631] Women are better at timing.

[632] They're inappropriate behavior.

[633] It goes to the dolphin thing.

[634] This is just really paralleling the dolphin things.

[635] Like, again, if some woman's jerking off while you're rubbing her neck, I'm not that bothered by it, but I'm furious at this guy that had his anus splayed out while you walked in.

[636] It's still really bad for the woman to be doing that.

[637] It is.

[638] It's disrespectful.

[639] It's disrespectful.

[640] And there's no consent.

[641] She should have asked you, am I allowed?

[642] Sure.

[643] Can I go crazy down here?

[644] Yeah.

[645] Now, I would defend her in saying that she wasn't doing this from the start like this guy was.

[646] Yeah, like maybe, oh, you're taking some responsibility.

[647] Like the massage was so good.

[648] What else could she have done?

[649] She had no choice.

[650] She was teetering on climax already.

[651] You can't stop what you started.

[652] This is wild.

[653] Michael, thank you so much.

[654] chatting with us.

[655] Yeah, that was like a masterclass on this.

[656] I really appreciate you guys taking the time.

[657] Thank you so much.

[658] You know, be safe out there, I guess.

[659] That's what I want to say.

[660] Take care of yourself.

[661] Thanks.

[662] I've kind of steered more to the private thing so I know the customers that I'm dealing with.

[663] Yeah.

[664] These corporations.

[665] Oh, that's what you're, you're upset about.

[666] All right, Michael.

[667] Be well.

[668] Thanks for being on.

[669] You guys have a wonderful night.

[670] Wow, this is fascinating.

[671] Isn't it?

[672] I was getting so scared during that mail.

[673] That guy is, that was bad.

[674] Hannah from Duluth, meet in the Dutch is from her hometown.

[675] How exciting she must be to meet royalty from her hometown.

[676] That's good, Foley.

[677] It sounds like a frog.

[678] Oh, sorry.

[679] Sorry, we were making weird mouth noises.

[680] No, you're good.

[681] Can you see me?

[682] Yes, hello.

[683] Absolutely.

[684] Are you at a fancy restaurant?

[685] That's got the kind of background.

[686] Oh, no, that you're outside.

[687] That's a trellis.

[688] I'm on my back porch.

[689] It was sort of a compromise between visual and audio because my loud animals are inside.

[690] Right.

[691] So it was going to be a little darker out here, but we wouldn't have, like, you know, my cats and my dogs interrupt.

[692] So Hannah, right out of the gates, you're in the Duluth area?

[693] This is very ding ding dingy.

[694] Tell us.

[695] Yeah, so I'm in Lawrenceville.

[696] Okay.

[697] I'm not from here.

[698] Here.

[699] My husband is sort of from here.

[700] He's from Gwinnett.

[701] What high school did he go to?

[702] Meta Creek.

[703] Meta Creek.

[704] You know all about this?

[705] Of course.

[706] What kind of people were in Meadow Creek?

[707] It was a very diverse high school within the county and they had the best half -time shows.

[708] Oh, Pompom Squad dancing.

[709] Their half -time shows killed because they would do some like stomp and stuff like that.

[710] It was so cool.

[711] They were so much better than the rest of us.

[712] Where are you from?

[713] I'm from Bertle Beach.

[714] Oh, baby.

[715] I'm from.

[716] I'm from Burdle Beach.

[717] I just was telling a story about Myrtle Beach today.

[718] That's so crazy.

[719] One of the spring breaks, I went every year in high school, one of them, Aaron and I decided we were going to go to every spring big place.

[720] So first stop was Panama City, Florida, then we went to Daytona, then we headed north, we went to Hilton Head, we went to Myrtle Beach, we went to Virginia Beach.

[721] Okay, so what exciting story do you have for us?

[722] We hope it's positive.

[723] We hope it's not too traumatic.

[724] But it seems like it's going to be traumatic, but that's okay.

[725] From the wink.

[726] I know.

[727] I was hesitant to even share my story because I heard your kind of guidelines with mail -on -mail and it being funny.

[728] And I don't think that my story is super funny, but I think that it's empowering.

[729] Great.

[730] Oh, good.

[731] Tell us.

[732] I was five, six years ago, working for a buy appointment only kind of massage place.

[733] It was a couple of locations on like the Stone Mountain, Snowville area that were like super small.

[734] And it was mostly like retirees and like a lot of return clients and you had to be like super part time, gave your schedule over.

[735] And if it worked, then someone would come in.

[736] There was no front desk.

[737] Oh, wow.

[738] I was attracted to it because of the flexibility because I was also working at a chiropractor's office.

[739] So a few months into working for this woman, she tried to talk me into a massage on my day off.

[740] And she was kind of talking up the guy and she was saying, oh, he's super cute.

[741] And he's a firefighter.

[742] And can you please come in.

[743] And it's like, okay, I can come in.

[744] But why are you giving all these details about the dude?

[745] Like, this isn't a date.

[746] This is a service.

[747] Right.

[748] It sounds like it's a blind date.

[749] Like, oh, you're going to love this guy.

[750] He's a great dancer.

[751] He's wonderful with children.

[752] He's a firefighter.

[753] He's cute as hell.

[754] He's an Ares.

[755] So he comes in and he's a little flirty, which happens sometimes.

[756] My guard was up, but it wasn't enough to be like, okay, I'm not going to grant you the service.

[757] He was like, oh, you look like Drew Barrymore and I have a pool or whatever.

[758] Wow.

[759] Oh, boy, oh boy.

[760] I started the massage.

[761] He wore his underwear the whole time.

[762] Good sign.

[763] Mm -hmm.

[764] Nothing necessarily not wearing underwear isn't.

[765] So he booked like a 90 -minute or two -hour session.

[766] So I did his back, his neck, his blue.

[767] his legs and his feet, I think too.

[768] And then I turn him over.

[769] Turn him over and he's visibly aroused.

[770] It happens.

[771] They train you in massage therapy school to deal with it.

[772] You know, it's a physiological reaction sometimes just being relaxed.

[773] You're not supposed to make someone just feel embarrassed or whatever.

[774] As long as people are operating within boundaries and behaving themselves and that's fine.

[775] You can ignore it or you could say, hey, I'll give you a minute to adjust yourself and I'll come right back in.

[776] Yeah, we've heard that already.

[777] I'm going to step out for a minute while you get your shit together in a nice polite way.

[778] And then he reaches his hand in.

[779] Uh -oh.

[780] Still kind of like I take a beat because he could be adjusting himself.

[781] Trying to get it to go away or try to hide it.

[782] Right.

[783] I mean, the point is sort of like people are presenting a very vulnerable state.

[784] You're holding space for that.

[785] You're massaging their body.

[786] So be careful.

[787] Mm -hmm.

[788] Mm -hmm.

[789] I wait a couple seconds.

[790] I'm like, okay, it has to be addressed.

[791] But how?

[792] Yeah.

[793] What are you doing?

[794] Session's over.

[795] We're done.

[796] What are you doing?

[797] Oh, good.

[798] You said that.

[799] So I walk out of the room.

[800] I don't have a manager.

[801] I don't have a front desk person.

[802] I'm alone with this person in this building.

[803] And I have to just handle it.

[804] So he comes out.

[805] And then he blames me for arousing him because my massage was too good.

[806] Because you look too much like Drew Barrymore.

[807] His pool is just too big.

[808] He forgot where he was.

[809] And I was just like, fuck you, dude.

[810] The bigger story with the situation I felt like was I called the owner.

[811] I told her what happened.

[812] And she was sort of like, oh, yeah, you did the right thing.

[813] But I felt weird about how she was talking about he was so cute.

[814] And he was firefighter and blah, blah.

[815] I don't know.

[816] I just felt weird about the situation.

[817] I started asking some of the other girls more questions.

[818] And turns out there was a lot of misbehaving that was happening under her watch.

[819] And she was sort of allowing a lot of shitty stuff to happen.

[820] Some sex work.

[821] Basically, the number one priority was not keeping women safe.

[822] And there were no male therapists that were working here.

[823] And she was not betting people.

[824] properly, which was crucial for this.

[825] So I emailed her and let her know after I dug and found out a lot of experiences backed up mine.

[826] And I got a lot of women to quit.

[827] Oh.

[828] Oh, good.

[829] I was new to massage and she was more seasoned than me. But it was very clear that she wasn't taking people's safety into account.

[830] I could imagine it being a little bit worldview shifting.

[831] So it's like, you couldn't have gotten into this if you don't believe in the benefits and the health that one can get for massage.

[832] Like, you'd take it seriously.

[833] And then to have to acknowledge, like, some people are just fucking perverts and it's all about that.

[834] It must be a little shattering worldview -y or not.

[835] People will take advantage of you.

[836] The whole massage worldview has been so strange to me because it attracts a lot of different kinds of people.

[837] I kind of found that there's just an.

[838] that has a lot of ethical dilemmas and the money doesn't really support the level of risk.

[839] So I quit in COVID and now I'm a sociology nature and now I'm doing research.

[840] Oh, wonderful.

[841] You know, it's funny, this just came up.

[842] I don't even know if it was on an episode that aired yet, but I'm really interested in the power of anonymity.

[843] The way people behave on Twitter is very interesting because they're completely anonymous, right?

[844] There's no personal responsibility.

[845] You don't feel guilty.

[846] You're firing something off at another anonymous person, whatever.

[847] It erodes.

[848] And then to some degree, like, yeah, if you have a client that you go see all the time, there's really no anonymity.

[849] You actually know them.

[850] But we just kind of like show up somewhere to get a massage from a stranger.

[851] You're one and done.

[852] I think it's somehow in the stew is like this anonymity.

[853] Like people can show their worst sides.

[854] Yes.

[855] Like they're going to not have that human responsibility to one another.

[856] Yeah.

[857] And what I found in almost any experience where a man was aroused, they were almost always just seeking how much I was going to respond.

[858] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[859] Such a power play.

[860] I mean, also people who don't have power in their real lives will come find it.

[861] The shitty part is that they tell you in the interview of what kind of person they are.

[862] You can tell.

[863] But I've had so many bosses that are like, fuck you stop being a hippie we're not going to you know like change our business practices off of how you feel about somebody but you can always feel it i can't remember what therapist i heard saying this but they were saying like often they have to tell their female clients listen to the guy on the first date he'll tell you what he is they absolutely admit it oh wow you did a brave thing Yeah.

[864] I think that you will probably get some funnier and more digestible stories from massage therapists because I've worked with a lot of male massage therapists and everybody gets hit on.

[865] We did talk to a dude earlier and he said, weirdly, the women are much more forward.

[866] Oh, yeah.

[867] Women are forward and men.

[868] Yeah, yeah, we're all terrible.

[869] Humans are fucked.

[870] Humans are fucking terrible.

[871] I just want to say that I love all of the social science, stuff that you guys do and this is like amazing for me and you know my story isn't the most interesting no no no no listen you know the show it'll be everything can be funny it can be sad it can be scary it can be all things just talking to you guys collectively is like my matt damon oh my gosh i love this idea of talking to people and getting stories and stuff yeah us too well hannah that was so wonderful to meet you and to talk to you and i wish you so much luck in the social scientists they really are the most fascinating endeavors and enjoyed deluth thanks hannah first of all the big headline for me is how sweet it is a talk to people who listen to the show oh my gosh it's so fun to talk to real people who have these experiences and who listen to the show it's so fun i know you know i always do this but like two dudes i was like that and i just like you get scared we don't have enough boys it's not even that i'm scared i just am extra excited that dudes want to listen to a dude that it's reaching or whatever this You know, the stuff that maybe is scarier to, I don't know, you know what I'm saying.

[872] I do.

[873] I do.

[874] I think it's lovely.

[875] This was a fantastic start, a great first app.

[876] Yeah.

[877] And then we just want to thank Ben, Michael, and Hannah.

[878] It was so wonderful of you to tell.

[879] So honestly, and by the way, remember we were theorizing about this?

[880] And I said, we'll be able to tell if it's horseshit.

[881] Yeah.

[882] None of these were.

[883] No, those were all real stories for sure.

[884] And we appreciate them.

[885] So stay tuned.

[886] We'll try some more.

[887] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[888] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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