Lori Gottlieb

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.

[1] I'm Jack Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[3] Monica Lily Padman.

[4] Oh, excuse me. Yeah.

[5] Today we have the author of America's favorite book currently.

[6] Maybe you should talk to someone.

[7] Her name is Lori Gottlieb.

[8] Yeah.

[9] She's a psychotherapist and New York Times best -selling author.

[10] Also, it's being adapted as a television series with Eva Longoria.

[11] She writes Atlantic's Week.

[12] Dear Therapist's advice column and contributes regularly to the New York Times.

[13] Lori is full of all kinds of interesting emotional.

[14] Tidbits.

[15] Tidbits.

[16] Yeah.

[17] We really enjoy talking to where we hope you enjoy listening.

[18] Lori Gottlieb.

[19] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and add free right now.

[20] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[21] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcast.

[22] He's an armchair expert.

[23] Lori Gottlieb, welcome to armchair expert.

[24] Well, thank you.

[25] How are you doing today?

[26] I'm doing great.

[27] You took a long ride to get over here, yeah?

[28] I did.

[29] How long do you think it was?

[30] It was over an hour.

[31] Yeah.

[32] West Side to Hollywood on a Friday is a real beating.

[33] Yeah, I wasn't expecting that.

[34] Is your practice on that side of town?

[35] It is.

[36] So what's your normal commute like?

[37] Seven minutes.

[38] Oh.

[39] By design.

[40] Uh -huh.

[41] Now, you grew up in L .A.?

[42] I did.

[43] I'm a native.

[44] That's very rare.

[45] It is.

[46] But to me, L .A. is kind of like Mayberry.

[47] Like, I think for people who come here from other places, it's this sprawling megalopolis.

[48] Yeah.

[49] But for me, I walk down the street and I see, like, people from kindergarten.

[50] Oh, really?

[51] Yeah.

[52] And like the same ladies who worked at the bakery when my mother would take me, when I take my son there, they're still there.

[53] Oh, that's wonderful.

[54] Yeah.

[55] What part of town did you grow up in?

[56] I grew up in the west side.

[57] Oh, you did?

[58] Yeah.

[59] Did you go to Sammo?

[60] No. Oh, you didn't.

[61] I went to Beverly Hills High School.

[62] Oh, my God.

[63] Was that traumatic?

[64] No. It wasn't.

[65] It wasn't.

[66] Okay, because, of course, from someone that's from Michigan and Monica from Georgia, I think Beverly Hills 902 .1.

[67] Oh, yes.

[68] I think of guys driving like Lamborghinis to school, you know, huge mansions.

[69] Was all that in the mix?

[70] No. It was.

[71] That was television.

[72] Dang.

[73] I hate to disappoint you, but television isn't always really.

[74] It's not.

[75] Yeah, I know.

[76] I'm going to throw mine out then.

[77] Let's just gossip for one second.

[78] Did you have any famous classmates?

[79] I did.

[80] You did?

[81] Ooh.

[82] Delicious.

[83] I, let's see.

[84] So, David Trummer from Friends because you're older than I was.

[85] And Nick Cage was my brother's year.

[86] Hold on.

[87] Let's just take a little second there.

[88] So he's probably the reason I got into acting.

[89] Oh, really?

[90] I am so fascinated with him.

[91] What an interesting.

[92] human being.

[93] Do you remember him in your high school?

[94] I do remember him.

[95] You know, I was a freshman when he was a senior, so I didn't have any interaction with him.

[96] Yeah.

[97] But I definitely knew who he was.

[98] Okay.

[99] Yeah.

[100] Yeah.

[101] All right.

[102] Now, what did mom and dad do?

[103] Totally not in the business.

[104] My dad was a stockbroker and my mom was a travel agent.

[105] Oh, she was?

[106] Yeah.

[107] Does that mean you guys got to travel a ton when you were younger?

[108] It means that my mom and dad traveled a lot when we were younger.

[109] Uh -huh.

[110] We did travel, though.

[111] Uh -huh.

[112] Because they often.

[113] Often, right, they'll have travel agents come for free just to give their stamp of approval to a resort or something.

[114] They're called fam trips.

[115] And my mother would go at like familiarization trips, I think it stands for.

[116] Oh, I went straight to family.

[117] Me too.

[118] Oh, I wish.

[119] Yeah.

[120] Yeah.

[121] So, yeah, so she's been everywhere.

[122] She loves to travel.

[123] She has wanderlust.

[124] Yes.

[125] Yeah.

[126] That would be a good partner for me. Every three days I want to go somewhere else.

[127] So does she.

[128] I think I should introduce you.

[129] Well, you know who else does this?

[130] Is Ted Turner.

[131] I watch this.

[132] 60 minutes segment on him.

[133] Jane Fonda said the hardest part about being married to him was that every three days, he's like, all right, let's get on the plane and go somewhere else.

[134] I got to get out of here.

[135] And I can really relate to that.

[136] Now, so did you go directly from Beverly Hills High to Yale?

[137] I did.

[138] Okay, I can't imagine you know a lot about Monica and I, but we've invented a term called Unifile.

[139] We are Unifiles.

[140] Yeah.

[141] We really like these fancy schools.

[142] We're kind of obsessed with fancy schools.

[143] And then Beverly Hills High on top of it.

[144] That's a kind of a one -two punch.

[145] Yeah, it is.

[146] But Yale and then ultimately Stanford?

[147] Right.

[148] So I started at Yale.

[149] I did my first two years there.

[150] And then I transferred to Stanford because I got a job working, doing motion picture publicity for Paramount for the college demographic in the Bay Area.

[151] So I had to be in the Bay Area.

[152] Oh.

[153] So I left.

[154] So did you have interest in the movie business?

[155] Well, I did.

[156] I worked after college.

[157] I worked in the entertainment business.

[158] Doing what?

[159] Well, I was an assistant at an agency and then, right, trial by fire.

[160] And then I did film development.

[161] And then I moved over to NBC and I was a baby executive at NBC the year that ER and friends both premiered 1994.

[162] Must see TV.

[163] That was when must see TV was developed.

[164] What a time to be there.

[165] That's awesome.

[166] Now, Monica's religion is friends.

[167] I'm obsessed with friends.

[168] And David Schwimmer were coming back to that.

[169] Yes, I know.

[170] The blue passed that.

[171] but I felt it.

[172] He plays a, he's just a reoccurring theme in your life.

[173] Yeah.

[174] I hope you someday treat him.

[175] I guess I'm wondering how you would get from that, on that trajectory to then psychology and psychotherapy.

[176] Yeah, it's a really nonlinear path.

[177] But I think it makes sense in retrospect.

[178] Oh, sure.

[179] Because I think everything that I've done has to do with story and the human condition.

[180] And so when I was working in Hollywood, it was all I love story.

[181] That was why I wanted to.

[182] do it.

[183] I loved these rich human stories.

[184] And when I was working on ER, we had this consultant on the show who was an actual ER doc.

[185] And he would, you know, help choreograph the trauma basins and make sure that they were accurate.

[186] Sometimes we wouldn't always put a mask on George Clooney because why do you want to cover that face?

[187] Yes, exactly.

[188] That's a bad idea.

[189] Keeping a car cover on a Ferrari.

[190] Yes.

[191] Yes.

[192] Yes.

[193] But everything was really, really accurate on that show.

[194] I mean, that was because of Joe.

[195] And I would spend some time in the ER with him.

[196] And at one point, he said to me, I think you like it better here than you like your day job.

[197] Oh, no kidding.

[198] And I just, I love the ER because nobody ends up in an ER because something was expected.

[199] You know, it's kind of an inflection point in people's lives when you just see people come in and there they are.

[200] And so while the show was, you know, great in terms of really capturing this, this human experience, I think seeing it in real life was really fascinating to me. And so I did go to to medical school.

[201] So I left NBC.

[202] I went to Stanford from back up to Stanford to medical school.

[203] I don't know if that fits into your obsession with schools again.

[204] Of course it does.

[205] Yeah.

[206] You're checking so many boxes right now.

[207] Friends, NBC, MCTV, Stanford, Yale, medicine.

[208] Wow.

[209] Right.

[210] So I went up to medical school.

[211] And when I got there, it was the whole dot com boom, right?

[212] So it's like, you know, ground zero for, you know, the dot -com world up in Silicon Valley.

[213] Oh, sorry, I skipped something, which is that my first book was published, the first year of medical school, because when I was getting ready for medical school, I was looking for my old chemistry and physics notes to study for the MCAT.

[214] And I found my old diaries.

[215] And I ended up publishing those.

[216] And so that became my first book.

[217] And then when I was in medical school, it was like managed care was starting.

[218] And a lot of my professors were saying the way that you want to practice medicine, the way that we have always practiced medicine seems to be really difficult to do now because of managed care and the 15 -minute visits and the insurance companies and the whole landscape was changing.

[219] Yeah, just and to bring people up to speed who might not know what managed care is, right?

[220] The whole system kind of gets digitized.

[221] It gets monitored.

[222] It gets tracked.

[223] They really, in an attempt to make everything so efficient, the whole model kind of changes, right, around that time.

[224] Yeah.

[225] And I had this fantasy of being the family doctor who, sees people through their entire lifespan and, you know, really has these relationships with my patients where, you know, they come to me and I know them really well.

[226] And you just couldn't really do that in this new system.

[227] Yeah, it's interesting because I think about probably the majority of listeners of this show are, they're much younger than me. And I think they've only had that experience with doctors.

[228] I remember when I started going, wow, the doctor's now typing on a computer during this consultation and looking at the computer much more than me. First and foremost, they're doctors.

[229] Who knows how good they are on a computer?

[230] So for all, I think a lot of those doctors, it was like a big learning curve just to be entering data into the thing.

[231] Yeah.

[232] And I think also having insurance companies tell you what you can and can't do and what you can and can't prescribe because it's on the plan or it's not on the plan.

[233] Right.

[234] And so I think it took away sort of the art and the creativity of medicine in a lot of ways.

[235] And so I ended up leaving medical school to become a journalist.

[236] And I still am a journalist.

[237] But I loved being a journalist because then I got to tell people's stories.

[238] I got to really delve into people's lives in that way.

[239] And then I had a baby.

[240] And after I had a baby, I felt very isolated during the day because all of a sudden all that sort of human contact that I would have during the day wasn't there with adults.

[241] And so the UPS guy would come with all my deliveries, like all the diapers and everything that you would order and I would detain him.

[242] I'd be like, how about those diapers?

[243] And do you have kids?

[244] And he would back away to his big brown trek to avoid me. And so I called up the dean at Stanford and I said, can I come back?

[245] Can I finish?

[246] Maybe I should do psychiatry.

[247] And she said, if you do psychiatry, you're going to be doing a lot of prescribing antidepressants and anti -anxiety medication.

[248] And it's not going to be the kind of thing you want to do.

[249] You're welcome to come back.

[250] But do you really want to do that with a baby with a toddler, when you could get a graduate degree in clinical psychology and be a therapist and do what you want to do.

[251] Yeah.

[252] And that was this aha moment.

[253] So already I know you're somebody who, and what a gift, you're open to hearing people's opinions and taking on that advice.

[254] The ER doctor who suggested you go back to school and then now the dean, I'm envious of that open -mindedness.

[255] It's admirable.

[256] But before we move on, your diaries, what ages were they written that you published?

[257] That was when I was 11.

[258] 11.

[259] Yeah.

[260] Oh, interesting.

[261] Yeah.

[262] And did you, I have a friend who wrote this great book called Dear Diary, Leslie Arfin, and she basically had her diary, she published it, and then she would both then recount what now in retrospect she think was really going on.

[263] And then in many cases would go, like, interview the people from that story to see if it jived with their memory of it.

[264] And it was just this kind of fascinating look at how your memory works, all these things.

[265] Were you drawing any conclusions from what you had written, or was it just the entries themselves?

[266] It was an edited version of the entries, and, you know, I thought it was really important for that book to keep the voice of the 11 -year -old girl who's kind of looking at women and weight and culture, and yes, it's skewed because you're 11.

[267] Yeah, yeah.

[268] But I think that's important because I think it's important for us to see what are young women, what are young girls thinking about as they're forming a sense of self?

[269] as they're forming a sense of who they are, who they are in the culture and who they are in relationship to what their worth is and what appearance is to them.

[270] Yeah.

[271] You know, and I think that that theme has carried through, like, even in the current book, and maybe you should talk to someone, there's this whole question of how accurate are our stories, even as adults, right?

[272] So we're all unreliable narrators.

[273] Oh, the worst, yeah.

[274] And you can see that even in this book when I, you know, I'm interacting with my patients that I know that everything that people are telling me as a therapist, it's just a story told by a particular author and that there's another version of the story too and my job is almost to be an editor it's to uncover what is the other version of this story what are they leaving out what are they emphasizing or minimizing yes what are they seeing what do they want me to see in the way that they're telling their story yeah and i think when we can get more clear about what the story really is and not just our very narrow version of the story that's when we start to make changes Yeah.

[275] Now, I mean, I'm curious when you were writing at 11, because I wrote a young age too, it's very hard to be honest with yourself.

[276] It's very hard to really know what you're doing.

[277] But I do recall writing and imagining it being read.

[278] Because I too aspired to be a writer.

[279] So I don't know that my journal entries were even my real voice as much as what I thought, oh, well, this will be read at some point.

[280] So there was even a performance nature in that.

[281] And I just wonder if your entry, were literally an 11 -year -old just letting it spill out?

[282] Or were you too conscious of like, oh, this will be read?

[283] And I also want to present myself in a certain way, even in my internal diary.

[284] That's so funny.

[285] I was the opposite of that.

[286] Oh, you were?

[287] Yeah.

[288] I mean, I never imagined I would be a writer or a therapist.

[289] So it's kind of wild that I do what I do.

[290] When I was writing those diaries, it was survival.

[291] It was I need somewhere where I can be raw and honest.

[292] and just get my feelings out.

[293] And I never wanted anyone to see them.

[294] Like, my nightmare would have been that somebody saw those diaries.

[295] Right.

[296] So were you at all aware of, like, Anne Frank?

[297] Yes.

[298] In fact, Anne Frank inspired my getting my first diary.

[299] Right.

[300] So I weirdly think that was in the mix for me, too.

[301] But then I was aware of the fact that ultimately everyone read Anne Frank's diary.

[302] So, you know what I'm saying?

[303] It was like the model itself implied that someone would read it sometime.

[304] I don't know.

[305] You know what's interesting.

[306] I think that that performative aspect that you're talking about, I see that a lot in therapy where I think people come in and they feel like it's very confidential.

[307] It's very private what they're talking about with me. But there's also sometimes, I think before they get comfortable in therapy, there's a performative aspect that they want to be liked.

[308] They want to be thought of in a certain way.

[309] And they tell their story in a specific way.

[310] So it seems like it's very raw and authentic, but there's something, I think there's even a rehearsal on the way driving over to therapy where people say, like, what am I going to talk about today?

[311] And then they know what their opener is.

[312] I do it all the time.

[313] Right?

[314] Yeah.

[315] Right.

[316] And you can tell when people have rehearsed their opener.

[317] Yeah.

[318] The deepest element of it is that it can be intrinsically motivated and performative.

[319] Like, for me, when I'm like, what am I going to talk about today?

[320] It's not because I want the therapist to like, me at this point.

[321] I'm sure at the beginning I did feel that.

[322] It's just being extra vulnerable with yourself.

[323] It's like, how do I choose to see this?

[324] Or like, I'm not going to say that part because I don't want that to be true.

[325] Not really for her, but for you, you know?

[326] Sure.

[327] Yeah.

[328] If I say it, it becomes real.

[329] Yeah.

[330] Mm -hmm.

[331] Yeah, it's really hard.

[332] And then there's like, there's so many layers within it, yeah, what level are you going to just go freeform on it?

[333] In some level, you're always protecting your own identity or projecting your own identity in an effort to like cement it.

[334] So even if I'm, yeah, in therapy, I have a version of who I am and I'm trying to convey that to you even while maybe trying to work something out sincerely.

[335] It's just all very murky.

[336] Part of what therapy does is it holds up a mirror to you and helps you to see your in a way that you normally don't see yourself or that you prefer not to be seen.

[337] And I think that people are afraid of that, but I think that what they come to realize is once they look in that mirror, it's not so scary.

[338] And in fact, they're going to like that version of themselves so much more than the performative version of themselves.

[339] Yes.

[340] Yeah, well, we talk a lot on here about like intrinsically motivated things and extrinsically motivated things.

[341] And so, yeah, I think my own journal was like a mix of those two things.

[342] But yours sounds like it was very intrinsically in survival motivated, which is fascinating.

[343] Right.

[344] And I think that if I had thought that people would read it, I probably would have, you know, cleaned it up in a different way.

[345] Yeah.

[346] I think that people are more inherently interested in the non -pretty version.

[347] Oh, for sure.

[348] The real version.

[349] That's to me how AA works.

[350] The magic of it for me is watching someone else approach rawness and vulnerability and realness and then being able to relate and then aspire to that.

[351] It's almost like I appreciate the example in front of me quite often.

[352] That's very helpful to me. Yeah.

[353] And I think seeing other people just be real human beings normalizes our own struggles, our own insecurities, our own parts of ourselves that we feel shame around.

[354] Okay.

[355] So you go to Stanford and you do change to psychology.

[356] Right.

[357] Do you immediately like it?

[358] Do you go, oh, okay, I'm home.

[359] This was the right thing.

[360] You know, it's sort of like I went from telling people stories as a journalist to helping people change their stories as a therapist.

[361] So I feel like it was taking the story part to another level.

[362] And I still do both.

[363] I think they're really complimentary in a lot of ways.

[364] Yeah.

[365] But I do.

[366] I feel like I get up every day and the job that I do feels like a privilege to be able to get into people's lives in that way and have them trust you with their lives.

[367] It's no small thing.

[368] I think, you know, I'd never take that.

[369] that for granted.

[370] Not, not ever when somebody comes in for a session that they're coming to me and they're trusting me with this and this is really important to them and that I have a responsibility to help them.

[371] Yeah, it's deeply flattering to be someone that someone trusts.

[372] Yeah, and I think you have to earn it.

[373] So we agree in that almost everyone could probably benefit from therapy and so many more people are in therapy than people admit, right?

[374] Like millions of millions of people are in therapy, but for some reason there's still some stigma attached to that.

[375] Now, do you, Do you have a theory on why do we have a pandemic of needing to talk to someone or have therapy?

[376] Do you have a theory on why we're in such need of it?

[377] I think that no matter what people come in to talk to me about, there's an underlying sense of loneliness or lack of connection, even if they're happily married, even if they're surrounded by friends or family.

[378] I think that people are not connecting in the ways that we're organic in the past.

[379] Like, you walk outside and you see your neighbors.

[380] You know, you're at the grocery store and you run into people.

[381] You get together with people and there weren't phones back then and I'm not anti -technology, but, you know, where there isn't something like pinging or buzzing or ringing.

[382] Yeah.

[383] And you're just focused on the other person.

[384] Things felt different in terms of how you interacted with people.

[385] And now, even with our own families, even with people who live under the same roof, so often people will be like co -computing in the same house.

[386] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[387] Or they're just on their phones and they're sitting next to each other, but they're not really with each other.

[388] Yeah, you'll see a whole family at each person on their iPad or whatever on a couch.

[389] Yeah.

[390] But because I'm curious about it, because the really quick fun history is, right, that for a long time in psychiatry and psychology, people had an issue with what is the standards for diagnosing things, right?

[391] So then the DSM is created to kind of unify some standard of diagnosing different mental health issues.

[392] And as the DSM kind of gains acceptance and it's administered widely, what becomes really clear is that by the DSM's definition, it is pandemic.

[393] Like most Americans are going to fall somewhere on the DSM of having some issue that needs to be addressed.

[394] You know, I talk a lot in the book about diagnosis and its limitations.

[395] as far as I'm concerned, that I think it's useful and that if you know that somebody has a certain personality disorder, for example, or you know that they have clinical depression, or you know they suffer from generalized anxiety disorder, it helps you to understand generally how you can help them.

[396] Like what technique you need to employ?

[397] You know, sort of what's going on with them and how to help them with those specific symptoms or those specific behavioral patterns, for example, and like a personality disorder.

[398] You know, and depression often I'll say, to people.

[399] Like, you are not the best person to talk to you about you right now because depression distorts our perspectives.

[400] It narrows them.

[401] And they can't really see things while they're in the depression.

[402] So you have to understand that about depression.

[403] So that's where diagnosis is helpful.

[404] But where it's not helpful is like in the book, I write about this guy who comes to me and he's extremely abrasive.

[405] He's extremely insulting to me. This is a guy that called you a hooker.

[406] Yeah.

[407] Okay.

[408] Let's get right to it.

[409] Let's get right to it.

[410] Sorry to steal your punchline.

[411] But he's really hard to like in the beginning.

[412] You know, he becomes, I think, somebody that certainly for me, and I think for people who read the book, that he's somebody that we come to love so much, you know, as we get to know him and see what's under that.

[413] So, you know, could I diagnose him with, you know, a narcissistic personality disorder?

[414] Sure, probably.

[415] But it doesn't really matter because then I lose the person behind the diagnosis.

[416] I don't want to lose the person because everybody is unique.

[417] Everybody has their own makeup.

[418] their own history, their own characterological issues.

[419] And yes, I know how to deal with narcissism in a certain way, but I also need to deal with the human being right in front of me. And so I really am careful about diagnosis.

[420] Oh, that's great because that actually leads directly into a couple different things I wanted to talk to you about.

[421] One is when you study language, right, and you can learn so much about how people use certain words.

[422] So here, and in most of the West, people are a schizophrenic, they are bipolar, they are, you name it, right?

[423] So in sub -Saharan Africa, where one of my professors did her work, it's more like a cold, like, oh, you have a cold, they have this delusion, you suffer from this.

[424] And the implication, of course, is that you may one day not suffer from it or you may get rid of it.

[425] But here, it's like a permanent label, a permanent condition that there seems to be no escape from.

[426] And just the way we phrase it really tells us a lot about how we're approaching it.

[427] So it sounds to me like maybe you're more open to the notion that the diagnosis is one thing, but it's not really maybe the meat of it and it's not the most relevant part of it.

[428] No, I'm really interested in who is the human being sitting across from me in whatever they present to me. And I'd even take that a step further and say that when we talk about, you know, someone suffers from depression or someone suffers from anxiety, in a lot of ways, I think nowadays, the approach might be make friends with your anxiety.

[429] Like, instead of looking at it as an enemy, make friends with it.

[430] It's part of what you experience.

[431] We all experience anxiety.

[432] It's not unique to that person.

[433] Maybe you experience more.

[434] But you need to make friends with it because then you're not battling it so much.

[435] And then when it's there and it comes to visit you, then you say hello.

[436] And it doesn't feel so overwhelming.

[437] Right.

[438] On the same topic, I'll start by saying, I have friends who have had to medicate their kids.

[439] I was pretty insensitive and I was not in that situation.

[440] I shouldn't have as strong of an opinion as I had.

[441] But at a lunch, I was kind of railing on putting kids on medicine and they're like, look, I felt the exact same way.

[442] But it was real.

[443] So with that said that I recognize that some kids definitely need medicine, is there not still a risk, though, with labeling kids at such a young age with certain things, putting them on, you know, riddling or adderol?

[444] But what are your thoughts on that?

[445] I assume that you think it's definitely necessary at times, but I wonder what your thoughts are on just kind of the rate at which we're doing it.

[446] And to me, it seems like the best time to potentially learn some behaviors that can address these things, like cognitive behavioral therapy type stuff, like learning coping mechanism, all these things.

[447] If we medicate kids and we get them into that road we'd call normal on the DSM, are we at risk of denying them, the opportunity?

[448] to develop skills and coping mechanisms and all these things?

[449] I think that there are times when medication can be really helpful, but I also think that you need to see who that person is.

[450] And as we all know, we go through different phases as we're developing.

[451] And even as adults, we go through different phases.

[452] So I think sometimes parents get very anxious about difference in their kids.

[453] That, you know, if your kid doesn't fit into, you know, like on a chart, like right in the 50th percentile of everything or, you know, when certain things you want them in like the 90th or 100th percentile.

[454] But if they're an outlier in some way that somehow we pathologize that, that all of a sudden something is wrong with them as opposed to kids are all over the map in terms of what their behaviors you're like, what their natural set point is for tolerating, say, anxiety or depression.

[455] And we can help them to tolerate things.

[456] We can help them to sit with their feelings and normalize that.

[457] Now, there are situations where they do need some help.

[458] But I think that we tend to jump toward the quick fix.

[459] And it doesn't give them a chance to develop some of these coping skills or to really see who they are.

[460] And I think that it pathologizes them very young where they feel like I suffer from this and this is going to handicap me. Yes.

[461] And then also there's kind of like a built -in limitation or, for lack of a better word, an excuse.

[462] So if the expectations are very low of you because you have this label, then it kind of becomes a self -fulfilling prophecy on some level.

[463] I don't think the expectations are lower.

[464] I think what happens is that there are such high expectations for kids nowadays.

[465] In general.

[466] In general, there's so much pressure.

[467] So, you know, I have a 13 -year -old and I'm shocked by the pressure kids his age feel around what they need to do and and what's coming up and college.

[468] I didn't, college wasn't even, you know, in my mind at 13 years old.

[469] Yeah.

[470] But they, it's in their world.

[471] Yeah.

[472] So I think there's so much pressure.

[473] I think the reason that kids get medicated sometimes when they don't need to be is because the parents are worried that they aren't going to go along this path.

[474] They're going to get left out of the whole.

[475] They're going to get left out of whatever path this is.

[476] And it's a very narrow path that isn't the road to happiness.

[477] Right.

[478] You know, or whatever, you know, we call it contentment.

[479] a fulfilling life.

[480] So I think we have a very narrow definition of what a good life is.

[481] Yeah, because I think in my own experience, having dyslexia and as a kid getting labeled that, but they're not being any medication for that.

[482] It's not like ADHD where I could have taken a pill.

[483] And then having grown up knowing, oh, you're twice as likely to go to prison if you're dyslexic, and then not until Malcolm Gladwell does some subsequent study, find out you're also twice as likely to be a CEO.

[484] And now thinking, oh, I kind of value that I was dyslexic.

[485] I think it's now helped me ultimately.

[486] And if I had one of my two daughters happens to be dyslexic, I don't think I'd be bummed about it.

[487] You know, I would hope that they would overcome and it'd be something good.

[488] But also, I could see the temptation if there were a pill to fix that.

[489] It's very tempting.

[490] Yeah.

[491] I mean, I think that it's helpful to know what they're struggling with so you can find a way to support them.

[492] But there's a difference between, you know, supporting and overreacting.

[493] Right.

[494] Right.

[495] Now, there's a lot of interesting things about your book.

[496] Maybe you should talk to someone, which again is all the rages, Monica just said.

[497] Everyone in our front.

[498] It's almost like the Marie Condry.

[499] Is that her name?

[500] Oh, Marie Kondo.

[501] Yeah.

[502] Did you read that book?

[503] Tidying up book.

[504] It's so funny because so many of my patients would mention that book in my office was like a little bit cluttered and kind of a mess.

[505] And I think like, are they trying to tell me something?

[506] That's really funny.

[507] Yeah, that's exactly how I would interpret it.

[508] So you yourself have a therapist, yeah?

[509] Right.

[510] So basically the book follows four patients of mine as they go through the various things that they're going through.

[511] And then I'm the fifth patient as I'm going to therapy when this crisis happens in my life.

[512] And so you see therapy from me as patient and me as clinician at the same time.

[513] Yeah.

[514] And how easy do you transition into patient?

[515] You know, I think it was really hard at the beginning.

[516] I think, you know, we're required to do therapy.

[517] to get our license.

[518] Oh, you are?

[519] And yeah, and I think it's interesting because you're an intern then.

[520] You don't know anything.

[521] And so you're very much the patient.

[522] You're just going to therapy.

[523] But later, when you do know a lot, it's almost like, I think, a magician, you know, saying like, no, you're going to go, you know, do magic tricks for this magician.

[524] You kind of backseat drive a little bit, or at least I did it first.

[525] And I think that performative aspect we were talking about earlier is that you want to appear really together, especially because you're a therapist.

[526] But that's not the purpose.

[527] of why you're there and that's not going to help you.

[528] And so I would wonder, you know, why is he asking me that question or I know why he's asking me that question.

[529] And so I'm going to give this answer because I know if I give this other answer, he's going to think this, but I'm not really like that and he's not going to know that.

[530] Yes.

[531] Because often we all think we're incredibly unique in that like, yes, yes, yes, I'm exhibiting all those behaviors, but I'm in this rare case where I exhibit all those behaviors, but I don't have this condition.

[532] But he saw right through that.

[533] Oh, yeah.

[534] And, you know, and I've had therapists come to me for therapy, too.

[535] So I think that ultimately you're just a person in the room.

[536] One of the things that's so, I think, counterintuitive is that a lot of people think, I want to go to the therapist who has the most experience or the most training or they practice with this modality that would be helpful for me. But what helps most in therapy is your relationship with your therapist.

[537] Study after study shows that your relationship with your therapist matters more than all of those things.

[538] Oh, wow.

[539] Not that the other things don't matter, but that the relationship matters the most.

[540] And if you really do have a strong relationship with your therapist, all that other stuff goes out the window.

[541] You know, all the performative stuff, all the, oh, I'm a therapist, I don't want to really fall apart in here.

[542] Yeah.

[543] You do.

[544] So would you recommend that people, you know, go on a few dates?

[545] I always say that a first therapy session is a consultation.

[546] You know, it's an opportunity for you to sit with the therapist, see what it feels like.

[547] And when you leave, ask yourself, did I feel understood?

[548] Was this person easy to talk to?

[549] And if I think both of those things happened, I would go back for a second session.

[550] Stay tuned for more.

[551] armchair expert if you dare we've all been there turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains debilitating body aches sudden fevers and strange rashes though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios it's usually nothing but for an unlucky few these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[552] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[553] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[554] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[555] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[556] Prime members can listen early and and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[557] What's up, guys?

[558] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[559] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[560] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[561] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[562] And I don't mean just friends.

[563] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[564] The list goes on.

[565] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[566] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[567] you know a lot of people I think have this idea that if you go into therapy for a first session that you're committed if you go back and you're not you know it's not like you know this old model of you're going to go into therapy you're going to talk about your childhood ad nauseum and you're never going to leave uh -huh that's that's not I think what modern day therapy is although I have felt like this person knows so much about me now to start over feels daunting that's almost like saying I'm in a bad relationship and I know it is and I And, you know, I don't want to go try to find a new boyfriend because we have so much history and he knows what I like on my pizza.

[568] And we have the same Netflix account and I don't want to start that all over.

[569] Yeah.

[570] But that's not a good reason to stay.

[571] It's a great comparison.

[572] Yeah, it is.

[573] Yeah, we're thinking of it as like mother child relationship.

[574] But on that, about the relationship, do you have opinions about male, female, female, male, all these kind of things?

[575] Because I went to co -ed meetings forever in AA and I got X amount out of it.

[576] And then I've been going to a stag meeting.

[577] for like the last 12 years, and I get so much more out of it because I am just endlessly in need of female approval that I will be in performance mode.

[578] I get too distracted by it.

[579] And so for me, it's very helpful to just be around men.

[580] And I wonder, do you have any opinions about whether people should see the same sex or an opposite sex?

[581] I think people discover very quickly whether they're going to be able to be themselves with that person.

[582] And gender certainly plays into it.

[583] So does age, so does, you know, all kinds of like the way the person dresses or the references that they make is sometimes you want someone very similar to you.

[584] Sometimes you want someone not similar at all to you.

[585] So I think it depends.

[586] But I will say there is a difference between men and women and how they interact with me, which is that when men come into therapy, often they'll say something like, I've never told anyone this before.

[587] And then what they tell me feels so mild to me. You know, it's like really that I feel so.

[588] I feel so much for them that they've been holding this thing and that they really don't have anyone that they can really open up to.

[589] And women will come in and they'll say, I've never told anyone this before, except for my mother, my sister, my best friend, right?

[590] So they've told like, you know, a handful of people, but to them it feels like they haven't told anybody.

[591] Yeah.

[592] So I think men are, you know, they really don't in general have as much of a group.

[593] And I really want that to change because men have the same concerns that.

[594] women do about, you know, am I a good parent?

[595] How do I deal with my marriage?

[596] How do I feel about my worth?

[597] What do I deal with my parents' approval or lack of approval?

[598] Oh, yeah.

[599] You know, who am I at midlife?

[600] Who am I in my 20s?

[601] And what does that mean?

[602] And do I have purpose?

[603] All these.

[604] Yeah.

[605] Yeah, they're all kind of universal ailments.

[606] But you're right.

[607] Just at least conventionally, males aren't, you know, sharing all that much.

[608] But they're just as deep.

[609] They have these deep concerns.

[610] And once they open up, there's so much there.

[611] They won't shut the fuck up.

[612] I really like sing men in therapy because I think they're so interesting.

[613] Yeah.

[614] Now, this is an inappropriate question, but I'm going to ask it because I thought it as soon as I was reading about you.

[615] Have you fallen in love with any patient?

[616] I have not fallen in love with any patients.

[617] And I don't mean like have you acted on it, but I mean, such an intimate thing, I can see myself like falling in love with someone.

[618] Yeah, it's a really intense relationship.

[619] I have certainly loved my patients.

[620] So, in fact, in the book, there's a patient that I say, I love you too.

[621] She says, I love you to me, and I say, I love you back, because I don't want to stand on professional ceremony and be that kind of brick wall.

[622] I think it's really important to just be human in the room.

[623] And so, you know, I could have said, like, a very therapy -like thing back to her, but I did love her back.

[624] And so I said, I love you too.

[625] I like that.

[626] I did feel that way about her.

[627] I think that there are times.

[628] when certainly just like with anyone in the world, you might find your patient attractive, but you get supervision.

[629] You know, I don't, I think it's kind of hard in a way to fall in love with your patients because of the role that you're in with them.

[630] There's something not very sexy about being in kind of the expert role with somebody, at least for me. But I could see where it would be appealing in that the weight of those conversations when you're in a relationship is different.

[631] Like if you and your, I don't know what your status is, but if my wife and I are talking about something, there's so much weight to it for obvious reasons.

[632] And I will often talk to a female friend and I'll hear her say the exact same stuff.

[633] But of course, I have no baggage attached to it.

[634] And I can just experience it in a different way because I'm not carrying all my own baggage in.

[635] Right.

[636] But so you have to remember, I'm not sharing my life with my patient.

[637] So I don't have that experience of, oh, it's so easy to talk to this person versus my partner.

[638] But they have it with me. Yes.

[639] So, yes, there's what we call romantic transference, which is when people have romantic feelings for you.

[640] And they'll express it in lots of different ways.

[641] Like the person named John in the book, the one who did call me his hooker, you know, certain times he'd make these very sexualized comments that were insults.

[642] But they were very much about my appearance.

[643] You know, like, are those your fuck me shoes?

[644] Oh, wow, wow, wow.

[645] You know, those kinds of things.

[646] What is your like immediate facial reaction?

[647] your temperament.

[648] Are you just bulletproof?

[649] Can you roll with that?

[650] Are you like, oh my goodness?

[651] There were certain times when he would say things and I didn't know what to make of it in the moment.

[652] And so I don't say anything until I really know how I feel about it or what it means.

[653] Yeah.

[654] I'll confront him about it.

[655] I'm not just going to let it slide.

[656] I'm going to talk about it with him.

[657] You have to have that awareness that, oh, this person is in a very desperate position and they're acting in a way that's inexcusable, yet I can look past.

[658] it because I see this greater need.

[659] Right.

[660] I think that people's behavior is a way of protecting themselves from something unspeakable, unthinkable.

[661] And I think out in the world, it's important for all of us to remember that, that, you know, when people act a certain way, we write them off so quickly and we don't think about maybe why they're acting the way that they're acting.

[662] I will say, too, that it doesn't always have to be so overt, like with John, like when I see a lot of couples in my practice.

[663] And sometimes the guy in the couple will be attracted to me because I don't react to him the way his wife does because I'm not his wife.

[664] Right, right, exactly.

[665] If I were his wife, I'd be a painting they asked him too, right?

[666] So, you know, I think that those are all things that get talked about.

[667] And one of the, I think the beautiful things about therapy is that nothing gets swept under the rug in a good way.

[668] Right.

[669] So you pace yourself, like, so when he says, are you wearing your fuck me shoes, that's a, I mean.

[670] Most people don't do that.

[671] He was an extreme example.

[672] Sure.

[673] It's more that, it's more that like a guy in a couple might, you know, like if I have an individual session with each of them, which sometimes I will, you know, he'll make a comment like, you know, I wish that, you know, I could find someone like you.

[674] It might not even be that overt.

[675] It has been that overt.

[676] But sometimes it's more subtle.

[677] Yeah.

[678] And you talk about that.

[679] Right.

[680] So is your game plan, though, in the extreme example of the shoes, is your game plan like, I'm going to let that go for a minute, and then I'm going to bring that up, let's say, next session when he's not going to be triggered and get defensive, like we're out of that zone.

[681] I mean, clearly if he even said that, he was probably feeling threatened or vulnerable that he was about to, it was probably a protective thing, right?

[682] So is it like a child?

[683] Like when my kid has a freak out, I don't address it then.

[684] And I wait to their calm two hours later and we talk about it.

[685] And I just wonder, is that part of the strategy?

[686] In the beginning, you're really working on forming a relationship with that person.

[687] And so there are certain things that you're going to kind of wait on until you feel like they trust you more.

[688] But by the time those kinds of things were happening, that particular comment with John, I confronted him in the moment.

[689] Right.

[690] Has there ever been anyone you've said, no, I'm not going to treat you?

[691] Yes.

[692] Really?

[693] Yes.

[694] rarely, very rarely.

[695] You know, it's more because I don't think I can help them.

[696] Right.

[697] Yeah.

[698] So if I don't think I'm the right person to help them, I definitely don't want to waste their time.

[699] I don't want them to struggle any more than they're struggling.

[700] Yeah.

[701] And so I might say, I think this person might be better for you.

[702] A therapist friend of mine has said that a couple different times, they recognize immediately that the, the patient triggers all of their stuff, like whether it's they're identical to their own mother or something.

[703] And they themselves have had to acknowledge, I'm a bad fit for you because I'm going to be in a zone.

[704] Right.

[705] Sometimes, you know, a patient will walk in and they're basically wearing a sign on their head that says, like, I remind you of your mother, you know, or whatever it might be, whatever your trigger is.

[706] You know, and you have to be self -aware enough to say, you know, I'm not going to be able to help this person.

[707] I think sometimes you don't notice those things until you really get into the material with them.

[708] And that's why we have consultation groups.

[709] And I have a chapter in the book where you see me in my.

[710] consultation group where I get together with colleagues once a week and we talk about our cases.

[711] And I think people don't realize that.

[712] I think a lot of people think, well, you're alone in the room with these people and then you go out into the world and you never get to talk about this with anyone.

[713] I thought that.

[714] Yeah.

[715] Right.

[716] So once a week, you guys meet and you do a group thing.

[717] Right.

[718] So you talk about, you know, what's going on with your patients and if there's a specific patient that you're struggling with or you feel like you're not making progress or this something happened.

[719] You know, it's interesting because in other jobs, You know, people say like, oh, yeah, you did a great job.

[720] And we don't get to hear that either, except when you go to your consultation group, you know, no one's saying, like, at minute 22, that was a great intervention.

[721] Right, right.

[722] You don't get any of that.

[723] Well, in fact, I'd almost argue the sign of your success is they desert you at some point.

[724] Right, right.

[725] So it's like the worst business model ever.

[726] But we really, you know, we're not there to keep you there.

[727] It's like your children, you raise your children so that they won't need you in the same way anymore.

[728] Yeah.

[729] And the same thing happens here where, you know, we want you to be able to.

[730] to not need us anymore, to internalize what you've learned.

[731] You know, we always say the insight is the booby prize of therapy, which means that you can have all the insight in the world, but if you're not making changes out in the world, the insight is useless.

[732] So we hold people very accountable for what happens between sessions because we don't want them to be there forever.

[733] Yeah.

[734] So we say things like, what happened this week?

[735] We talked about that last week.

[736] You know, if someone says, now I know why I get into those arguments with my wife.

[737] And then they go home and they do the exact same thing.

[738] Oh, for sure.

[739] It doesn't matter that you know why at that point.

[740] You have to actually change your behavior.

[741] It makes it worse because I've had those revelations and then I just continue my shitty behavior.

[742] And I'm like, now I mean, I even know I'm doing it.

[743] And here I am still doing it.

[744] And that kind of brings me to, there's a phrase we heard that we really liked on another podcast.

[745] He said, I think it's a lot easier to act your way into thinking different than think your way into acting different.

[746] And that's kind of an AA thing as well, like get into action.

[747] So I wonder being that it is a lot of talking.

[748] about thinking.

[749] How do you implement action?

[750] And do you have an opinion on that?

[751] Do you think you can think your way into better thinking?

[752] I think that change is really hard.

[753] And if you keep thinking about change, you're never going to change.

[754] Change is really hard because change involves loss, even really positive change involves loss because you lose the familiar.

[755] So even if the familiar was utterly miserable, you still know what it is.

[756] If you change, it's like going into a foreign country, like, you're like, I don't know what the rules are here.

[757] I don't know how to act here.

[758] Yeah, the unknown is scary.

[759] The unknown is really scary.

[760] So people cling to, you know, the thing that they know, even if it's really destructive.

[761] Yeah.

[762] Well, I have a theory that often when people are falling in love, I'm putting air quotes up, they're really just seeing something familiar.

[763] It feels familiar and they're mistaking that for love.

[764] Right.

[765] We marry our unfinished business.

[766] We marry our unfinished business.

[767] I certainly did.

[768] I marry my mother.

[769] I mean, carbon.

[770] But we do.

[771] And I think that what happens is we think that we're marrying the opposite.

[772] So there's a woman in the book, one of the patients I follow Charlotte.

[773] And she comes to me, she's in her 20s and she keeps dating all these guys that, you know, it always ends badly.

[774] And eventually she starts hooking up with a guy in the waiting room.

[775] And she says, well, at least he's in therapy.

[776] So she thinks that he's kind of a step up, that, you know, at least he's introspective and he's working on his issues because he's in therapy because he's in the waiting room.

[777] But then he comes with his girlfriend to therapy.

[778] And of course, he's the same old thing that she's always dating.

[779] And it's, you know, it's because there's something so familiar.

[780] He might look very different on the outside, but we have radar for that familiar sense of home.

[781] Oh, you look familiar.

[782] Give me more of that, right?

[783] Even though we think, oh, I want to get away from that thing.

[784] Oh, yeah.

[785] We could have the expressed goal of distancing ourselves from our childhood parents, all that stuff, and yet we just are drawn right to the flame of the exact same thing.

[786] Right.

[787] And so when we see that, we say, come closer, come closer.

[788] But we tell ourselves, oh, this person's completely different from anything I experienced that would hurt me. And yet, what you're asking to come closer is the very thing that will guarantee your own unhappiness.

[789] Well, this is what gets so fascinating to me. So I'll tell you about a crazy breakthrough I had one time, which was, I was dating a gal.

[790] We got in a fight over the phone.

[791] She was away in another area.

[792] I got this immediate I got horny is what I got.

[793] I got straight horny.

[794] And I had the impulse to text this girl I had hooked up with before.

[795] And I just, for whatever reason, had a moment of clarity where I was like, that's too coincidental that I just felt powerless.

[796] And now I'm horny.

[797] I'm like, my brain is that fucking smart.

[798] And it's operating on a level I'm unconscious of.

[799] Like, how powerful is that subconscious?

[800] It was a drug, though.

[801] See, that's the thing.

[802] So how do you self -suit?

[803] So it happens is you feel dysregulated.

[804] And then you want to regulate again.

[805] Well, how do we deal with that?

[806] Well, you need your drug.

[807] And, you know, it's a different drug.

[808] So it could be.

[809] sex it could be food it could be the internet we one of my colleagues called the internet um the most effective short -term non -prescription painkiller out there that's great um you know so people will just like get on twitter or um you know just like surf the internet and in this kind of day's state for hours whatever they need to you know that's their drug but rarely is someone conscious no they're not that's what's mind -blowing to me is that there's some layer that's operating so protectively over you that mostly unaware of unless you get an outsider to help you discover that, right?

[810] Right.

[811] And so we always think we're driving the car, but we're not.

[812] Yeah.

[813] You know, so I always want people to think about like, who's driving the car right now?

[814] Who's driving the car?

[815] Yeah.

[816] So back to the parent thing where someone will like replicate a relationship that they had with their parent, right?

[817] And they're completely unaware of it is the theory that the subconscious thinks that if they get the version of this relationship that they wanted that that will somehow heal the other version from childhood.

[818] Right, exactly.

[819] So it's called repetition compulsion.

[820] Repetition compulsion.

[821] And what it means is that we keep repeating the same circumstance over and over thinking this time it will work out better.

[822] Yeah.

[823] This time it will go the way I want it to go.

[824] This time I will get love instead of whatever you got the last time.

[825] Yeah, yeah.

[826] This time I will be seen, heard, understood, cared for.

[827] It's, I mean, not to spiral out on this, but just what part of your brain is doing all that without your awareness?

[828] It's just so hard to comprehend.

[829] There are all these sort of neural pathways that were developed in childhood.

[830] And what happens is people don't realize that there's a stimulus, right?

[831] Like, oh, look, there's a person who seems really cool.

[832] Yeah.

[833] And then what happens is then they hurt you for the very first time.

[834] Like everything's all great and you're in that sort of insane, you know, falling in love infatuation.

[835] dose and induced euphoria.

[836] Right.

[837] And then something happens and you realize, oh, that person is not like me. That person disagrees with me. Uh -oh.

[838] We're not one.

[839] We're not fused.

[840] We're not merged.

[841] And then all of a sudden you have this neural pathway of what happened.

[842] It travels literally on this pathway in your brain of, oh, I remember what that feels like.

[843] Now, you don't know whether that just normal that you guys are different as you should be, two separate people.

[844] Or whether it's like that traumatic thing that happened or that upsetting thing that happened when you were younger.

[845] And so that's where, you know, if If it travels too quickly on that neural pathway, you're just like speeding down the highway and you can't reflect on it.

[846] But if you can take a breath and if you can reflect on it, then you might respond differently.

[847] Well, I think this is the huge value of journaling in general is that you can, I have been able to identify patterns that I don't think otherwise I would have actually ever discovered.

[848] Had I not journaled, I don't know.

[849] And then I suppose therapy serves a really wonderful tool in that same way is that you can point out like, well, did you notice?

[850] Yeah, you can point out people's blind spots and so much better than people in the outside world can for you, because when people in the outside world are pointing out your blind spots, partly they want to help you, but partly it's because they have an ulterior motive.

[851] And the ulterior motive is, if you stop being so difficult with this way that you're acting, my life will be easier.

[852] For sure.

[853] Now, as a therapist, I only have 50 minutes with them a week, so I don't have that ulterior motive.

[854] So I'm telling them because I genuinely want to help them see something that they're not already seen.

[855] and usually it's a blind spot that leads to a pattern that they're enacting in all areas of their lives, professionally, personally, and how they talk to themselves.

[856] We're so unkind to ourselves.

[857] We have this monologue going on in our heads that if we said that to our friends, we would not have any friends.

[858] I couldn't agree with you more.

[859] I'm like, just show yourself half of the kindness you show strangers or people in AA or whatever.

[860] So then do you give people, like as you said, people will come in and they'll intellectually understand it, but they don't take any real steps or maybe emotionally they don't understand.

[861] My therapist says that all the time.

[862] I know you understand all of this intellectually.

[863] You're beating me to the punch intellectually, but you are not understanding it emotionally.

[864] So then do you give them tools or what's the transition for them when they're like, okay, I get it, but I'm not doing it.

[865] Part of it is that the relationship that happens in the therapy room is a small, like a microcosm of the relationships that the person has outside.

[866] So whatever they do outside, if there's a real bond between therapists, you know, if there are stakes for that person, if the person who comes to the therapist really cares about the therapy and the therapist, they're going to act out in the way that they hacked out in the outside world, too.

[867] And in those moments, it's about having things happen in those moments in the room so that there's an emotional experience in the room.

[868] So it's not about just yacking away and talking about things.

[869] It's about feeling sad, feeling angry, hating the therapist, loving the therapist, you know, getting frustrated with the therapist, feeling misunderstood by the therapist, feeling cared for by the therapist.

[870] All of those things will create an emotional experience that will help you to integrate all of the kind of insights that you're talking about, but you have to have that emotional experience to carry out to the outside world.

[871] Now, is there, any element of it that is like the movie version we've all seen like do you have literal breakthroughs where the thing cracks the identity cracks to all that does that happen yeah so that's why i wanted to show these four very different patients because you can see that you know for some of them change happens what i like to say is um you know gradually and then suddenly for others it's all gradual for others it's just whoa here's this thing and it's very sudden but you know like most things in life i think you know there are times when you're making a lot of progress and there are times when it takes a little while because they're stuck on something um we're actually making a tv show of the book and one of the things that's really important to me in the tv version is that the therapist is just a person i think most of the shows that are about therapy or have a therapist on them it's so much about the cliches of therapy.

[872] And even though the shows are really good shows.

[873] And I think that what I really want to do is make it this character who happens to be a therapist.

[874] This person could be any other profession, but you get to go inside her world because she has this access to people's lives in a way that most people don't.

[875] Yeah.

[876] So I think that, you know, whatever the media's portrayal of these sudden breakthroughs, you know, I think in the book, it's a much more realistic view of how people change.

[877] And there's significant change in the book.

[878] Yeah.

[879] But that's a how it really happens as opposed to the Hollywood version of how it happens.

[880] And on that topic, do you, there's wordplay here, is it hard to stay patient with your patience?

[881] I only deal with people in AA.

[882] So they're there because there's a life threatening.

[883] In general, there's a life threatening issue.

[884] So we do not have time for you to have a breakthrough.

[885] We don't have eight months for you to come to terms and learn to be honest with yourself or do an inventory.

[886] You've got to do it now or you're going to fucking die.

[887] And the stakes are such that we are generally, very abrupt and your first meeting with your sponsor is going to go right right right I did the same thing that's fucking bullshit now let's go on to this so that's the model I come from and I just when I think of doing the job you do I go man I don't know if I'd have the patience to inch along with somebody because the stakes aren't so dire and they could slowly get there I think that the stakes are very high because we don't get time back you know I think it's really important for people to think about death a lot.

[888] And I know that sounds kind of morbid.

[889] And I'll bet you're really glad I'm not your therapist right now because I really feel like we're all going to die.

[890] And that's really important to think about.

[891] That's a good thing to think about because you don't get today back.

[892] Right.

[893] And so I don't want people to take a long time to feel better or to live their lives in a different way or to navigate through life more smoothly.

[894] I want that to happen really fast.

[895] Yeah, you get one trip.

[896] You get one trip.

[897] And if you take too long, you've wasted.

[898] all that time and you've suffered unnecessarily.

[899] Yeah.

[900] So I do look at it like each situation is the stakes are very high.

[901] But I also think that if somebody is really defended around something that if you go in too soon, that wall is going to go higher.

[902] And it's going to take longer because now you've got another wall to scale on top of that.

[903] So I used to play chess as a kid.

[904] And one of the things that I loved about it was you'd have to think like 10 moves ahead.

[905] And I think the same thing is true when you're a therapist that if I say this, I'm going to float this out there.

[906] And I'm going to see how they respond.

[907] Now, I don't know what move they're going to make.

[908] But I have to see what move they're going to make.

[909] And I'm going to adjust based on that move.

[910] And sometimes I'm going to back off and I'm going to hold that for another time.

[911] And I know, you know, I'm going to know when that time comes and I'm storing that up.

[912] And other times I'm going to say, you know, okay, I'm going to go and I'm going to actually move three other moves ahead because this person responded this way.

[913] Yeah, I would imagine that is the real art in your job.

[914] Throttle response.

[915] Like how far to push, how soon, how late, all that stuff.

[916] I'd imagine that's what delineates between good and okay therapists.

[917] Yeah, and you make mistakes.

[918] Everybody does.

[919] So, you know, sometimes you realize, oh, I push too hard.

[920] Sometimes you think, oh, you know, I didn't push hard enough.

[921] But you get next session to either repair that or to move forward if you felt like you didn't really tackle something.

[922] Yeah, do you find that you make amends to patients sometimes?

[923] All the time.

[924] Oh, that's wonderful.

[925] All the time.

[926] We call that rupture and repair.

[927] And I think that's so important just in general in life that so many people in life didn't have a good experience of what we call rupture and repair, which is there's some kind of break, right?

[928] Like you got into an argument with somebody or a friendship dissolved or, you know, a relationship, you know, something happens between people in a relationship and they don't know how to repair it with each other.

[929] Yeah.

[930] And they don't have any good modeling on how to do that.

[931] And so you get that modeling and therapy of, you know, because usually we're so ashamed if we did something wrong, like as people, we don't know how to apply.

[932] apologize in a way that is a genuine apology, not like, I'm going to apologize to you so you can make me feel better.

[933] Yes, yes.

[934] And those are never good.

[935] Yeah.

[936] But how do I apologize in a genuine way and take responsibility for what I did?

[937] And how does the other person accept my apology without then re -blaming me?

[938] You know, because so many people, you're right, you did that.

[939] It was horrible.

[940] That's not helpful either.

[941] Yeah, because we all have friends who have had many fallouts, right like oh well you all have a friend it's like they've had three best friends that they don't talk to anymore and i always want to just go like it's something you got to recognize you're the common denominator we always say you know if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to it might be you yes yes stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare now couples therapy is really fascinating to me i've been in couples therapy with my wife pretty much since we started dating And even I who I think approaches some honesty with myself, I want to win those sessions.

[942] And I have to imagine it's pretty universal for like both parties to be looking for a victory.

[943] Like, yep, she saw it my way.

[944] We just showed her and now she sees that you're the dysfunctional part of this argument.

[945] How do you combat that?

[946] And is that really common?

[947] It is very common in the beginning.

[948] I give people a handout to read for both of them to read before they come in about how I do couples therapy, which is basically the premise is that you're coming to couples therapy to change yourself.

[949] You're coming to see what changes you can make.

[950] You can't control anything the other person does, but you can influence what the other person does by changing your behavior.

[951] So if you are both coming because you want to change yourselves, that's what we're going to work on.

[952] And when they come in with that framework, so much more gets accomplished.

[953] Oh, I bet.

[954] Because they know from the very beginning that whatever happens, they're going to have to change their response to what the other person is doing.

[955] They're going to have to hear the other person differently.

[956] You know, so many times when people say, he never listens or she never listens to me, I always say to them, how well do you listen to him or her?

[957] So many of the things that we complain about with the other person are things that we're doing ourselves, it just looks different.

[958] The presentation is different.

[959] Yeah.

[960] I mean, we all are kind of innately egocentric, right?

[961] I mean, we can't escape that as sentient beings.

[962] I was just the other day, we go in cycles.

[963] So my wife works a ton and I take care of the kids.

[964] And now currently I'm working a ton and she's taking the care of the kids.

[965] And when I was taking care of the kids, every time she came home from work, I was dying for her to say, hey, thanks for taking care of the kids while I work, right?

[966] And I just busted myself the other day I came home and I was like, I mean, why can't she say like, God, you're so tired.

[967] You've been working so hard.

[968] haven't you?

[969] And I'm like, oh, it just flipped just like this.

[970] Even though I've even had the firsthand experience, most people don't even get the firsthand experience where they're trading roles like that.

[971] But even me who's trading roles, I'm only thinking about what I need in that moment.

[972] And it's just so damn hard to recognize your partner is a fellow human that needs a lot, too.

[973] Yeah.

[974] And I think so often we feel like they should be telepathic, you know, that they obviously, they should be able to see how tired I am.

[975] They should appreciate me. you know and celebrate me take your tape parade if they really cared if they really loved me they would do x y or z well it becomes a weird test for people right it becomes some somehow they're measuring their love with how intuitive the other person is like i don't want to have to tell you i need this right and that's such a young place to be that's when we get very young and that's that's that's the child part of us um and we forget that as adults we can actually communicate with the other person and they will likely meet our needs.

[976] Yes.

[977] If they're worth having as a partner, they generally will do that.

[978] They'll make an effort.

[979] But what happens in couples therapy is that couples come in and, you know, they talk about complaints a lot.

[980] And a lot of times the complaints are actually veiled compliments.

[981] So they'll say something like, you're never here.

[982] You're not, you know, like, or at night, you know, you're always on the internet and I want you to come to bed and the other person says, well, I'm working and, you know, don't you want a roof over to the head over your head?

[983] But it's a compliment.

[984] The person doesn't here's a compliment is, I miss you.

[985] That's what they're saying.

[986] I miss you.

[987] I love you and I miss you.

[988] And if I didn't give a shit, I wouldn't be concerned about this.

[989] Now, the presentation is bad, right?

[990] The presentation of like, you know, just nagging them is bad.

[991] But what's under there is what's really important, which is I miss you.

[992] And often what both people want is the same thing that they both are longing for connection.

[993] But they don't see that.

[994] They see the other person as the enemy.

[995] Yeah.

[996] It's like taking something from them.

[997] yeah that's a real easy pattern to fall into and it's it's interesting even as you say it you really in your profession more than any maybe you see the power of language because it's really how you phrase those things right it's it's really about saying when you do blank i feel this way yeah as opposed to you're trying to make me feel this way it's so easy to go to anger anger's the easiest you know way to kind of soothe ourselves but what's under the anger are the really important feelings like I feel sad, I feel anxious, I feel neglected.

[998] Unsafe.

[999] I feel unsafe.

[1000] I feel unseen.

[1001] I feel unheard.

[1002] I feel invisible.

[1003] You know, but instead we just lash out and that actually exacerbates the problem because then the person goes farther away.

[1004] I don't want to be around that.

[1005] Yeah.

[1006] You know, so instead of come closer, it's, oh, I got to get away from that.

[1007] Yeah.

[1008] Or anytime I'm defending my identity, we're in trouble because you're, you're painting me out to be somebody.

[1009] I know I'm not.

[1010] Like, I would never intentionally be making you feel any of these ways.

[1011] I'm not a monster.

[1012] So now I'm in a position where I'm defending my identity as opposed to trying to help you feel better, which should be my goal.

[1013] I think that instead of trying to make the other person feel better, it's important to think about hearing the other person, making sure that they feel understood.

[1014] You don't have to agree with them.

[1015] And sometimes people confuse that they think, if I say I understand how you're feeling, even though I vehemently disagree with it or I see it differently rather.

[1016] Those person's feelings are, you can't argue with someone's feelings.

[1017] That's how they feel.

[1018] The feelings are not right or wrong.

[1019] They might be different from your feelings.

[1020] You might see the situation differently.

[1021] But you need to understand that that person feels hurt or however they feel in that moment, even if you see the situation that hurt her or him differently.

[1022] Yeah.

[1023] And that's where people get tripped up.

[1024] They feel like, but I don't know why you're hurt because I didn't.

[1025] that you shouldn't be hurt yes yes but the person is yeah yeah like it or not that's where we're at and do you have to police your own bias when you're i just imagine if i was a couple's therapist and i was listening to men and women talk i imagine i'd have to really check my bias into siding with the man usually there's there's one person who likes to present themselves as the sane one at the very beginning sure you know the sort of more together one i think that's me And usually the person who's more distressed brought them in.

[1026] Ah, interesting.

[1027] And said, we need to go.

[1028] Right.

[1029] So you're not finding that these fall into some male -female pattern that you yourself identify with being the female in it?

[1030] Is there no consistency to it?

[1031] I don't really identify by gender so much.

[1032] I identify more by what they're bringing in.

[1033] And sometimes, yes, I identify more with a certain person.

[1034] Personality type or something.

[1035] Yeah.

[1036] Yeah, but I think that once you get to know both people, there will be certain sessions where I really feel, oh, I really understand where that person is coming from more than this person.

[1037] So I have to work really hard to understand the other person.

[1038] But then in the next session or a month later or whenever it is, I might feel that way about the other person in the couple.

[1039] Right.

[1040] Yeah, so you too are on this journey with them and you're open to understanding them better or worse than you did initially.

[1041] I want them to understand each other.

[1042] I want them to understand what is historic.

[1043] What are the things that have nothing to do with the other person that they're bringing from their past and kind of, you know, conflating with the current relationship?

[1044] And then what are the things that are really going on in this relationship?

[1045] Yeah.

[1046] But I really want them to take responsibility for their own roles in what's not working for them.

[1047] Yeah.

[1048] So because you've now seen just such a wide spread of types of people and people.

[1049] And we talk so much on the show about binary.

[1050] and these ideas of saying things in black and white and good and bad.

[1051] So what's your opinion on like good and bad people?

[1052] Do you think that exists or no?

[1053] Have you seen a person that you're like, that's a bad person?

[1054] I saw someone who killed someone and he was a real sweetheart.

[1055] He was a real sweetheart.

[1056] Like underneath it all, he was a real sweetheart.

[1057] So I don't have to like what he did.

[1058] Right.

[1059] I think that people do all kinds of.

[1060] kinds of things for all kinds of reasons.

[1061] And I don't excuse those things.

[1062] But I think that when babies are born, I don't think that there's a baby that's born that's inherently bad.

[1063] Right.

[1064] I think that genetics, environment, all of those things shape who we are and who we become.

[1065] But I don't think that how we act is the whole story.

[1066] Another question I want to ask if you have to police yourself.

[1067] And again, this is all me projecting.

[1068] Because I've been sober for a while and because I sponsor dudes and because more importantly, I really get self -esteem out of being someone, people ask for advice.

[1069] It's very easy for me to protect a facade because I like that and I get esteem from that.

[1070] And I really have to go out of my way to go, oh, you're still very fucked up like every other human being and you need to be reminding yourself to own that.

[1071] That's not going to come at the price of people not wanting your advice or whatnot.

[1072] Do you, you as a therapist and you as a real human being who has relationships, do you have to kind of police your herself in that manner?

[1073] That was the reason that I included myself as the fifth patient in the book because originally I thought, well, I'll write about these patients because I really feel like the book is about the human condition and I felt like there's no better way to communicate that than to let people see what I see and to let them see themselves in these stories because I think that it helps people to reflect and say, well, I do that or I'm like that person and help them to see how they might make changes in their own lives.

[1074] So that's what I hope the book does.

[1075] But then I thought I was going through something in my own life.

[1076] What were you going through?

[1077] I was going through a breakup.

[1078] Oh, okay.

[1079] And I really felt like it would be disingenuous to pretend that I was the clinician, the expert, and I wasn't a human also.

[1080] Right.

[1081] And I felt like it was really important for people to see that there's this other side too.

[1082] And I think that going back to sort of the TV show, I think there are these two tropes of I think therapists in the media.

[1083] One is sort of the brick wall, the person who, you know, you don't see any personality.

[1084] And I think the other, one is the hot mass, right?

[1085] Like the person who's just, you know, completely, you know, crossing all these boundaries.

[1086] And neither of those really reflects just what normal therapists are like.

[1087] They're just people who go through things that people go through.

[1088] But also there's a chapter in the book called embarrassing public encounters, which is about where what happens when you run into people out in the world.

[1089] You know, I talk about, I run into my patients out in the world where they would rather that they hadn't seen me. But there are times when I, you know, I, you know, You know, it's embarrassing for me, too.

[1090] Sure.

[1091] You know, once was, I was trying on bras in a department store.

[1092] And I was in a dressing room.

[1093] And the woman who was helping me was like, you know, and here's the miracle bra on the 34A, ma 'am.

[1094] And like my patient was right there.

[1095] I mean, it was really mortifying.

[1096] I've been.

[1097] Male or female patient?

[1098] Female, yeah.

[1099] Yeah.

[1100] Okay, okay.

[1101] You know, I've been on the beach in a bikini with my family.

[1102] and there's a patient, and it's really awkward.

[1103] Yeah.

[1104] So I don't acknowledge the other person unless they acknowledge me because whoever they're with might say, well, who's that?

[1105] And that person might not want to say, that's my therapist.

[1106] Right.

[1107] I remember once I was walking with, when I was newly seeing a boyfriend, and I was walking down the street with him, and one of my patients who had just had a session where he was telling me about all of his sexual fantasies came jogging by.

[1108] And I was thinking, I know more about that guy's sexual fantasies than I do about this guy that I just met.

[1109] And you're, again, you're a human, right?

[1110] You're a human being.

[1111] You're, you're subject to all the same things that we all are.

[1112] And I would imagine, even though it's in a semi -clinical situation, you too must be astounded sometimes.

[1113] I mean, there must be some part of you that is fascinated because it's a very, very privileged position you're in to hear people's true thoughts, desires, fantasies like you just said, it's okay to say it's tasty, isn't it?

[1114] I mean, that's a fun part of the job.

[1115] Is it not?

[1116] I'm pausing because that's such an interesting question.

[1117] I never think of it that way, even though you would think that it would be.

[1118] I think that because you're having such a real relationship with that person and you're talking about these kinds of things week after week, that nothing feels shocking, nothing feels juicy, right?

[1119] It just feels like, yeah, there's this other thing about them that I didn't know.

[1120] There's this other way that they think about this or this other feeling that they have or this fantasy they have.

[1121] But it's generally not shocking.

[1122] I mean, the things that are shocking are, there's a revelation in the book that I don't want to give away where the character that I was talking about, you know, reveals something about his life that I did not see coming at all.

[1123] A plot twist.

[1124] And it's a, it's the mother of all plot twists.

[1125] It was so shocking that I just, I remember that session, even.

[1126] And now, just I remember the way I felt.

[1127] I remember the way he looked.

[1128] I remember, you know how things are heightened?

[1129] Yeah.

[1130] And I just, I remember that session.

[1131] I'll never forget that session.

[1132] Yeah.

[1133] I didn't phrase that correctly.

[1134] But I will be listening to someone share in a meeting.

[1135] And I think, boy, I'm so lucky to be in a situation where I'm exposed to this.

[1136] This is a, like I said, it's a very privileged scenario by which I find myself in.

[1137] And I feel grateful for it.

[1138] I feel grateful that I've found some thing that gives me real access to people and not the facade we're all going to the grocery store with.

[1139] I cherish that and I'm grateful for that.

[1140] And I think I guess that's what I meant.

[1141] Yeah, it's the opposite of Instagram.

[1142] Yes.

[1143] And even, you know, when people do these Instagram revelations, like, let me tell you this very personal thing that I feel so brave to be able to tell all of you strangers that I don't know out on Instagram.

[1144] You know, I think that's helpful in some ways because it normalizes people's lives for a lot of people.

[1145] But I also feel like it's very different looking in someone's eyes face to face in the therapy room so that they can go do that with someone, you know, an individual, not with social media.

[1146] Yeah.

[1147] Someone who matters to them out in the world that they can have this much deeper relationship with, that they can say, this is who I am.

[1148] Can you understand?

[1149] Can you see me?

[1150] Do you still love me?

[1151] Can you know me in this way?

[1152] I think we all want that.

[1153] Yeah.

[1154] There's an accountability.

[1155] There is an accountability.

[1156] That happens in person, right.

[1157] And that's why people lie in therapy.

[1158] Because, you know, they feel like they're going to disappoint the therapist.

[1159] Yeah.

[1160] If they said they were going to do something and then they didn't do it.

[1161] Mm -hmm.

[1162] Or if they did something that they know, like say that they've been making progress on something, and then they backslid.

[1163] And then they did this thing that they haven't done in a really long time.

[1164] they're embarrassed to tell the therapist or in couples a lot of times they don't want to say oh they'll tell the story of what their partner did but they won't talk about what they did yeah and I'll do something even like even more embarrassing where I'll tell you 90 % of it and the 90 % is so dangerous yet I've decided I mean hypothetically I'd say I'm a sex addict I'm going to tell you yeah I hooked up with someone last night and then for some reason I'm just going to say I did wear a condom it's like Wait a minute.

[1165] You were almost all the way there.

[1166] Why are you putting on the brakes?

[1167] And it's all these little levels we're trying to hold on to of like, and it's in our own definitions of what's unacceptable or acceptable.

[1168] And I'm leaving out this one thing that for me would tip it if you were telling me, well, that's really reckless or something.

[1169] Yeah, that's all about shame.

[1170] You know, secrets are all about shame.

[1171] Carl Jung called secret psychic poison.

[1172] And I think they really are.

[1173] And there's a difference between secrecy and privacy.

[1174] So we all need.

[1175] need privacy in our lives, you know, with our partners.

[1176] They don't need to know every single thing about our lives.

[1177] We need those private spaces.

[1178] But secrets are things that you're holding back because you feel shame around it.

[1179] Right.

[1180] And that can get really toxic and they confess her.

[1181] Yeah.

[1182] So one of the steps is, you know, the ninth step, you make an amends, unless to do so would hurt or injure the person.

[1183] And so is there a little sliver of gray where it might be a secret, but it might not be because you feel shame about it, but because you've determined that that would not be useful or helpful to someone else to know.

[1184] That's a hard question.

[1185] I think in general, people know when you have a secret.

[1186] They might not know what the secret is.

[1187] People imagine that secrets are so easy to keep because you haven't told anyone or maybe you've told one person who's very trustworthy.

[1188] But I think that people can viscerally feel when there's a space that there's something sitting in the air between you, especially in couples.

[1189] Parents and children, too.

[1190] You know, there's some family secret that the parents feel like, well, I don't want the child to know this about Uncle Mort, you know, because, perfect name, by the way.

[1191] Right.

[1192] I don't know where that came from.

[1193] But, but, you know, I don't want, I don't want them to know, I don't want them to know this thing about, you know, especially when you talk about alcoholism, right?

[1194] So, like, I don't want them to know that I had a drinking problem because then they'll think this or, you know, whatever the family secret is.

[1195] But they'll know.

[1196] They'll know something.

[1197] And it's much worse if they have to kind of piece it together and find out later.

[1198] Yeah.

[1199] Because they always kind of knew there was something that was unsaid.

[1200] Well, that to me seems to be like the real mortal sin of all of it is allowing someone else to feel crazy.

[1201] Yeah, it's gaslighting.

[1202] Yes, gaslighting.

[1203] It feels very, very dark to be doing that, you know.

[1204] And again, shame leading to some other things, so I have compassion for it.

[1205] But at the same time, yeah, allowing someone to feel crazy seems like a particular kind of cruelness.

[1206] Yeah, I think with the shame, too, a lot of people worry with their therapists that they're going to bore them.

[1207] And so, you know, they feel like they're, they want to entertain them.

[1208] They're going to talk about these, these, guess what happened this week?

[1209] Right, right, right.

[1210] But, you know, what's really boring is when people are not.

[1211] letting you see who they really are.

[1212] That's what's boring.

[1213] So I'm going to be fascinated by you if you show me who you really are.

[1214] Right.

[1215] But if you are kind of like, look over here, look over here, look over here and going on tangent after tangent, I'm going to be so bored.

[1216] Yeah.

[1217] But if you just show me who you are, you're going to be inherently interesting.

[1218] So fascinating, because that's really kind of the key to being an artist, too.

[1219] Yeah.

[1220] And writing things, acting in things, all these things.

[1221] Well, listen, Lori, you've given us a lot of your time.

[1222] You're very fascinating.

[1223] I am not shocked at all that maybe you should talk to someone is a smash success.

[1224] And the TV show, when will that come to be?

[1225] Does it got the same title?

[1226] It's being written right now.

[1227] Uh -huh.

[1228] So stay tuned.

[1229] Have you listened to where should we begin?

[1230] Esther Perel's.

[1231] Yes, I love Esther Perel.

[1232] We had her on.

[1233] And that podcast to me is unbelievable.

[1234] It's like watching a true crime show.

[1235] Yes.

[1236] If there's something beyond just couples therapy about it, it's really intriguing.

[1237] Yeah, I'm actually about to launch a podcast also, but it's a little bit different from that.

[1238] This is going to be for IHeart with Katie Kirk producing.

[1239] Oh, uh -huh.

[1240] It's with a co -host, Guy Winch, who you may know from, he's also a therapist.

[1241] He's Esther Perel's office mate.

[1242] Oh, okay.

[1243] And he's done some really great TED talks about how to get over a broken heart and how to take care of our emotional lives.

[1244] And I'm the dear therapist columnist for The Atlantic.

[1245] He is going to be writing an advice column for Ted, and we're going to come together and do something a little different around advice in our podcast.

[1246] Oh, fun.

[1247] Yeah, I look forward to that.

[1248] Well, again, thank you for crossing the great divide between the West Side and the East.

[1249] You're such a pleasure to talk to you.

[1250] Oh, thank you for having you as a therapist now.

[1251] Yeah, I know.

[1252] I'm like, can I really drive to the West Side?

[1253] Yeah.

[1254] I'd have to be dying of another addiction probably to drive to the West Side.

[1255] Well, thank you so much for coming in, and everyone should check out.

[1256] Maybe you should talk to someone and look for all of her fun projects coming out after that.

[1257] Thanks so much.

[1258] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1259] Lori Gottlieb, Lori Gottlieb, Lori Gottlieb, Lori Gottlieb.

[1260] Hallelujah.

[1261] We're eating almond butter with vanilla.

[1262] We got to stop, though, because it sounds really bad.

[1263] Oh, you're saying that almond butter is uniquely bad to listen to people eat?

[1264] No, I think.

[1265] I think you can, mm -mm, mm -mm.

[1266] It's really bad when you hear it.

[1267] I think, yeah, because it's sticky.

[1268] Yeah, it's sticky.

[1269] Yeah, so it's extra bad.

[1270] I always have this, I lie to myself and I'll, you know, you've seen me, I'll eat some moments.

[1271] And I just tell myself, I'm just going to put them in my mouth and kind of let it dissolve.

[1272] Yeah, I know.

[1273] I can't resist chewing and then you hear it you hear it you hear it so we'll stop for now okay okay um Lori uh no I thought you I know you're gonna talk for 12 seconds no you can still hear it you can still hear the paste um Lori had been wanting to come on this show for a while which I didn't really realize yeah but we hadn't read her book yet so we we hadn't done our due diligence yet And then our friend Amy Hanson.

[1274] Hanson got it for me for my birthday.

[1275] And she was like...

[1276] Your 32nd birthday?

[1277] Correct.

[1278] And she was in love with the book.

[1279] And I was like, okay, well, if Amy loves it, then I'm sure it's great.

[1280] She vouched.

[1281] Yes.

[1282] And now I'm dying to read it.

[1283] And also what I said in the ad is really true.

[1284] It is like all the rage.

[1285] Oh, yeah.

[1286] Amy's a voracious reader, by the way.

[1287] She is.

[1288] Yeah.

[1289] It's very admirable.

[1290] It is.

[1291] And she came on.

[1292] It was great.

[1293] Yeah.

[1294] It was really, really interesting and fun.

[1295] I love when you can just throw, we had this with Dr. Alex.

[1296] It's like you can just throw hypotheticals at them and then watch them work through it through that psychology lens.

[1297] And I love it.

[1298] Yeah.

[1299] She said some stuff that was really interesting, I thought.

[1300] Which stuff?

[1301] She was talking about change.

[1302] saying like it's really hard even when it's a good change.

[1303] Like change is always hard, even if it's something good happening to you because it's unfamiliar.

[1304] Right.

[1305] And you're going from something that you're used to to something completely you're in the dark about, which I liked because I feel like people when they have a good change, they're probably experiencing anxiety, but they don't feel like they're allowed to experience anxiety because of something good.

[1306] Yeah, well, you're always looking at it in the rearview mirror.

[1307] and later you can make sense of it.

[1308] So like this show, had chips been a huge hit, I wouldn't have this show.

[1309] And I like this show more than I would like to have directed a second chips.

[1310] But in the transition period between that and this, I think my life's over.

[1311] And now in the rearview mirror, I got lucky.

[1312] Yeah.

[1313] Is that what you mean?

[1314] No. Okay.

[1315] It's okay.

[1316] That's all true.

[1317] I just mean like if you, like let's say like I booked a show tomorrow.

[1318] Right.

[1319] I would be, like, obviously excited, but I'd be anxious and nervous, too, and, like, probably sad and, like, we, I think you feel a lot of emotions when you experience change, but you feel like you can't if it's a good thing.

[1320] Well, yeah, and I think we lie to ourselves all the time.

[1321] So it's like, in your mind, you're like, oh, I just got to book a show.

[1322] If I book the show, party time.

[1323] Yeah.

[1324] But then you book it and you're like, oh, now I got to go be good in it.

[1325] I got to do as good as I did in that audition.

[1326] So now it's another thing, right?

[1327] Yeah, there's always something.

[1328] And then you do that, even if you do great, then it's like, well, I hope, blank.

[1329] Like, it's just, it's her, you know, our brain, right?

[1330] It's constantly recalibrating.

[1331] Still not getting what you're saying.

[1332] That even when it's good, there's anxiety.

[1333] Yes.

[1334] And it's okay to have it and recognize it and say it if you need to say it and not feel like bad about the fact that you have some negative.

[1335] get it feeling.

[1336] Even about something you really wanted.

[1337] Exactly.

[1338] Like, it's normal.

[1339] And it's because of that unfamiliar to familiar switch.

[1340] That would have been the third.

[1341] I got it on the third time.

[1342] You did.

[1343] But I had two strikes.

[1344] Yeah.

[1345] And if I hadn't got, if I didn't get it this last time, I would have been out.

[1346] We wouldn't have been friends.

[1347] Oh my goodness.

[1348] Yeah.

[1349] Which reminds me I have to tell everyone.

[1350] Oh.

[1351] H &R Block called.

[1352] Oh, they did.

[1353] They called you.

[1354] Right.

[1355] I have to update because it's the responsible thing to do.

[1356] Right.

[1357] That they called me a couple days ago, and they apologized.

[1358] Did it feel good?

[1359] It felt no. Yeah, because you were like, oh, they just had to.

[1360] Well, it didn't feel, I was very appreciative.

[1361] I was like, that's really nice.

[1362] They offered a discount.

[1363] I said, I appreciate that.

[1364] Oh, boy.

[1365] I will not be returning.

[1366] Well, this update went sideways.

[1367] No. Okay.

[1368] Did they call because they heard this?

[1369] They said, we heard you had a customer service issue.

[1370] And anyway, and she was lovely and kind and...

[1371] Not responsible for the original.

[1372] Not responsible.

[1373] And it was nice.

[1374] And I said, I understand it.

[1375] I know that when companies get huge, like this one is, that there's going to be things that fall through the cracks, it just was so many times and, you know.

[1376] But anyway, so that's the update.

[1377] So they called, oh, but the big takeaway was like, Well, no one else is getting this phone call.

[1378] And I bet a, like, I bet a million people.

[1379] Well, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[1380] Did you at any point say, hey, I appreciate the phone call so much.

[1381] Have you been to Costco?

[1382] Because they're huge and somehow they're doing it perfectly.

[1383] I didn't.

[1384] You should get someone on the phone from Costco and ask what the hell they're doing.

[1385] I didn't.

[1386] I could have it.

[1387] Well, I did get a little, I will say one point during the interview, one point, one point during the conversation, I did get nervous because she said that she tracked a couple of the people I spoke to.

[1388] But you did get turned over on one phone call to a buddy, not a manager.

[1389] Right.

[1390] I told her about that.

[1391] And so she said in there, they're talking to them.

[1392] And I was like, oh boy.

[1393] And I said, I was like, I do not want anyone to get fired over this.

[1394] But she was like, no, we're just retraining.

[1395] And I was like, that is good.

[1396] Retraining needs to happen.

[1397] It does.

[1398] But it does remind me of my driver and boss.

[1399] And remember, remember when I got the fight at the T -shirt stand?

[1400] I was telling my driver and he was from Charlestown.

[1401] Okay.

[1402] And he's like, I'd be real curious to find out who this kid is.

[1403] And I'm like, no, no, no. You don't need to find out who the kid is.

[1404] I don't want anything done on my back to this person.

[1405] Yes.

[1406] I don't want to be a part of anyone's firing.

[1407] Ruining anyone's life.

[1408] Yes.

[1409] I want nothing to do with that.

[1410] Even though they almost ruined mine.

[1411] Right.

[1412] So it would be, I guess, tit for tat.

[1413] Good update, though.

[1414] Anyway, that's the end.

[1415] That's the last time I'll be speaking about this.

[1416] It's wrapped up.

[1417] Barring some incredible turn in the plot.

[1418] Sure.

[1419] Like, ceased and assist.

[1420] cease and assist cease and assist right not cease and desist is desist oh wait cease and desist is it ceased or cease seize like seize and desist in the cyst I thought it was cease and cease and desist desist it is desist because that makes sense because why would it be assist yeah it wouldn't be like seize it and then assist those people I mean stop and do not restart A cease and desist letter They can't do that I know, I'm just saying If that happened, we'd have to update everyone Oh, and then that would be the opposite Of what they would want Well, of course, we couldn't stop fighting there No, no As soon as they got into a fight Then I'm like, let's go all the way Once there's a fight, then I'm in Like remember I was pumping the brakes at the beginning Yeah, that's the worst way to take it But if it's now it's getting into blood and guts Now you want in But if they drew first blood Like in first blood sure.

[1421] Rambo's first movie.

[1422] Yeah.

[1423] Oh, no. They drew first blood.

[1424] That was the line, he said.

[1425] Okay, that's good.

[1426] That's good.

[1427] Anyway, I couldn't do my Schwarzenegger today.

[1428] That's so, I think I have a brain injury.

[1429] No, I actually thought I was having a brain injury while we were having that interview.

[1430] Yeah, so we were interviewing a very exciting guest that had a brain issue.

[1431] And I was kind of like blurring my brain injury.

[1432] vision.

[1433] Can I give them a hand?

[1434] Because it'll be a fun payoff.

[1435] No, it's obviously everyone already knows already based on, I think they do.

[1436] That's a great clue.

[1437] That is a great clue because it's not, it's not on the nose.

[1438] But when you hear the episode, you'll start laughing really hard because you go, oh my God, that's.

[1439] Oh my God.

[1440] Okay, enough.

[1441] Okay.

[1442] Enough.

[1443] My God.

[1444] Anyway, my vision got blurred.

[1445] Mm -hmm.

[1446] Oh, wow.

[1447] And I was like kind of like feeling weird.

[1448] And then I was like, maybe I'm having a panic attack.

[1449] I think low blood sugar.

[1450] I came to that conclusion.

[1451] But you weren't doing your best thinking at the time.

[1452] That's the problem with brain injuries.

[1453] You're relying on your your own correction system.

[1454] Yeah.

[1455] You know, to observe what's going haywire.

[1456] And this person was like giving a trick for how to know if your brain is working.

[1457] And I was like doing it.

[1458] But I was doing it in my head, which isn't, I think you're supposed to say.

[1459] it out loud, but I didn't.

[1460] Monica, Lily, Padman.

[1461] Yeah, you're supposed to say your name.

[1462] August 24th, 1987.

[1463] Yeah, good job.

[1464] Ashok and Nirmala.

[1465] Yeah, your brain works great because you can even do it for me. Yeah.

[1466] I've had to years ago, I was like, I can't think about my heartbeat.

[1467] Because when I start thinking about my heartbeat, I swear it starts revving and beating you regularly.

[1468] And I'm like, I'm not allowed to think about my heart because I think I'm going to blow it up.

[1469] Stop!

[1470] Oh my God.

[1471] Anyway, okay, Lori.

[1472] Lori.

[1473] So fam trips are called familiarization trips.

[1474] That's what the travel agents get to do.

[1475] Oh, fam trips.

[1476] Yeah.

[1477] Familiarization.

[1478] It feels like family trip.

[1479] I know.

[1480] It's a trick, but it's familiarization.

[1481] Okay.

[1482] She said that what helps, which I thought this was really interesting.

[1483] One of the most effective parts of therapy is the relationship with the therapist, not necessarily, like type of therapy.

[1484] Modality.

[1485] Exactly.

[1486] Or experience level or anything.

[1487] that, like, that's interesting.

[1488] There are a lot of studies.

[1489] I saw it had you second guess in your therapist.

[1490] I saw it in your eyes.

[1491] No, I like her.

[1492] Okay.

[1493] I like her.

[1494] No, I do.

[1495] I do like her a lot.

[1496] Yeah, but it would make anyone in therapy evaluate in that moment.

[1497] Of course.

[1498] Oh, do I have the type of relationship that's going to bear fruit?

[1499] Yeah, I know.

[1500] I was thinking that.

[1501] Because we all have friends that are like, they're our best friends.

[1502] It doesn't mean they're good for our growth.

[1503] Yeah, but she's saying, which I liked, she was like, Your relationship with your therapist is sort of a microcosm for all of your relationships.

[1504] So if it's a trusted relationship, then that leaves room for you to have, like, real moments in the therapy.

[1505] Yeah, I like that she was saying that you can kind of have fights in there and the therapist can fuck up and have to apologize.

[1506] That, to me, is like, oh, now we're getting somewhere.

[1507] Yeah, I liked it.

[1508] It's all been civil when I've done it.

[1509] I haven't fought anymore.

[1510] I don't think they're having, like, fist fights.

[1511] No, but maybe shouting.

[1512] Well, that one guy said horrendous things to her.

[1513] Oh, my gosh.

[1514] God bless her for staying like Patient Yeah Open minded and I know Compassionate And when she said there's a big twist With that person I really want to know what it is So I got to read it Yeah got to read it now Yeah Anyway but she's right And there are like I found a lot of things That say that that's true Which is interesting That's all That's all Yeah there wasn't many facts Because she's an expert All right Yeah And they mostly are telling Well no we've had some experts that are Lucy Goosey with the facts.

[1515] That's going to happen.

[1516] Anyways, we've got to leave to go see a movie for a guess we're going to have tomorrow morning.

[1517] Sorry this fact check is short.

[1518] We're seeing a movie.

[1519] That's a worst excuse you could have.

[1520] Sorry I missed your birthday party, Rose.

[1521] I went to the movies.

[1522] That's probably the most offensive excuse someone could have for anything.

[1523] What about this?

[1524] I was supposed to go to a birthday party and then I accidentally got too drunk and lost track of time.

[1525] Did that happen?

[1526] Yeah.

[1527] This weekend?

[1528] No, this was a long time ago.

[1529] Carly and I went to the spa and then we went to the wine bar after.

[1530] And then we went to dinner.

[1531] Oh, geez.

[1532] But I thought, I thought it was four o 'clock.

[1533] Oh, and it was, what, seven or something?

[1534] Yep.

[1535] Oh, wow.

[1536] Okay.

[1537] Oh, you said it.

[1538] No, I didn't.

[1539] I said, no one knows what that is, Monica.

[1540] The one you said a second ago had actual sales.

[1541] All right, all right.

[1542] Okay.

[1543] Love everyone.

[1544] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1545] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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