S16 E11: Q+A

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences, as it discusses topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence.

[11] Content warnings for each episode and confidential and free resources for survivors can be found in the episode notes.

[12] Some survivor names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[13] pseudonyms are given to minors in these stories for their privacy and protection.

[14] Testimony shared by guests on this show is their own and does not necessarily reflect the views of myself, broken cycle media, or wondering.

[15] The podcast or any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional expertise or treatment.

[16] All persons are considered innocent and less proven guilty in a court of law.

[17] Thank you so much for listening.

[18] We've mentioned the word symbolic quite a few times.

[19] I think it just seems symbolic the day after the 4th of July to be wrapping up this part of your storytelling journey and sharing your experiences.

[20] You mentioned the word freedom many times throughout this season two.

[21] I keep asking you, but like, how does that feel?

[22] I was talking to my kids about that yesterday.

[23] As we were celebrating the 4th of July holiday, we have a lot of very open conversations with our kids It's about the history of America and our country.

[24] It's a mixed bag of emotion, certainly, especially with the recent Supreme Court rulings, especially the ones that impact survivors directly.

[25] The Supreme Court recently ruled on and some upcoming rulings that they'll be making impact domestic violence victims and survivors, such as allowing domestic violence offenders to own firearms, which we statistically know increases the rate that a woman will be murdered exponentially.

[26] It feels a lot like sharing my story.

[27] It's like there's a lot of heavy parts and then there's also a lot of appreciation and gratitude.

[28] Two things can be true.

[29] So much about America's systems and history is absolute garbage.

[30] And I still maintain hope for the future and I hope that our country gets better for the sake of future generations.

[31] That's kind of how I feel about.

[32] sharing my story, it's been heavy and dark and a lot of the past has been really overwhelming, but I'm really feeling like new chapter and trying to focus on the future.

[33] There's a spectrum, and I think as important as it is to talk to my kids about the dark parts, it's also important to talk about solutions and being proactive and finding solutions and accountability and how we can all continue to do better.

[34] Also, the things that we have, to be thankful for within it.

[35] I also spent some time last week with a gentleman by the name of Mr. Patrick Brown, who spent over 29 years incarcerated for a crime he did not commit.

[36] The victim of the crime spent decades trying to be heard and for the truth to get out, and he ended up being released from prison in May. I am doing an episode with wrongful conviction.

[37] Two things that stood out to me from his interview that were extremely profound beyond just hearing about his experiences and what he went through was, one, he said the hardest part about being incarcerated was not being able to be at his loved one's funerals.

[38] And two, he said the most difficult thing about reacclimating to current day society versus 1994 when he was wrongfully convicted is the prevalence of shootings and how gun violence existed before, but it has gotten to such a place where you can be shot at school or the grocery store or your place of worship or a movie theater, but it was such a reminder to where we are and how perhaps we've become desensitized to some of this stuff.

[39] And in hearing about his experience and what he's been put through for 29 years, fighting for his freedom, it gives you so much perspective and gratitude.

[40] You mentioned the kids and a lot of questions have to do with healing and being a parent.

[41] Hi, I'm CJ and I was part of something was wrong season three.

[42] My question to Tiffany is when you started having children and knowing that you wanted to be light years better than what your parents were, did that seem overwhelming for you?

[43] Or was it very easy to give your children that love and acceptance that all kids deserve?

[44] It just seems like there are now more people than ever working hard and pushing to break that generational trauma.

[45] So I'd love to hear your experience of how you actually succeeded in doing it.

[46] Thank you for opening up your life to us all this season, and I'm sending you love as always.

[47] I love you, CJ.

[48] I think it was very natural for me to love my kids because I had a deep desire to be a mother.

[49] And I think I am someone who has a lot of maternal inclinations by nature.

[50] And also, I think probably the relationship I had with Bobby.

[51] I knew from an early age, both with my brother and nannying and stuff, like, I just love kids.

[52] If I could spend the majority of my time with kids and puppies and horses, that's how I would choose to spend my time.

[53] Kids keep it real.

[54] They are not afraid to be silly.

[55] They are very honest and direct and I tend to prefer the presence of children.

[56] I think that I trusted myself in the love department.

[57] I knew like I would desire to do the best I could, but being so young, I'd never really cared for children the same way as Michael had.

[58] He taught me a lot too, even basic things like diaper changing and stuff like that.

[59] He was more experienced.

[60] I definitely struggled with postpartum anxiety and depression at times, being somebody who already has anxiety and depression, of course, hormone fluctuations, life changes, circumstances, certainly impact your mental health and your anxiety and your depression.

[61] I did experience that, but thankfully I had confidence in how much love I felt for my children and Michael and I were determined to do better.

[62] It's a lot easier when you have a supportive partner who all cares deeply and shows up to the best of their ability.

[63] It's hard to be constantly surrounded by loud deep sensory objects.

[64] I mean, kids are intense.

[65] So I completely understand why they aren't for everyone.

[66] And I think that people who choose to be child free by choice, that's a very valid choice too.

[67] I don't think children are necessary for healing by any means.

[68] I just am someone who has always loved kids, always wanted kids, and really enjoy parenting and especially trying to do it in a way that feels right for me. I think when I first became a mom, I felt like I had to be more stereotypical and maybe fit into a box more.

[69] People would treat me like being a mom was my whole identity or my whole personality.

[70] As much as I love being a mom and I love being a parent, I have a whole -ass identity outside of being a parent, and I never wanted to lose my identity.

[71] I think that was a big learning.

[72] Michael stays home, and I am the primary person who works.

[73] It's just interesting, because I remember during the pandemic, I was taking Ozzy to his classroom, and I had forgotten my mask, because I usually didn't do drop -off, and he's like, it's okay, Mom.

[74] All the other dads don't wear their masks either.

[75] He twice referred to me as, like, all the other dads.

[76] And it just was interesting from his little kindergarten perspective that dads automatically work and they're automatically not responsible for children because so many of the families that he was around at the time that was their experience.

[77] I kind of love not being boxed in that way.

[78] I also think that Michael is inherently better at taking care of the kids in home than I am.

[79] I shared a little bit on the season about how seeing my kids being able to, like, be their appropriate ages and being around kids as an adult.

[80] It was very validating to go through my own story and reflect on the ages I was or the grade I was in when certain events were happening and holding space for how young I was going through those things.

[81] It definitely validated my own feelings I had as a child.

[82] And it also has made me really want my kids to be kids and their ages.

[83] So I'm pretty annoying to them a lot because I'm like, you don't need to be on social media.

[84] You don't need to be on your electronics.

[85] I just want them to stay young and enjoy being a kid.

[86] Before I had Jude, I had gone to some forms of therapy and support groups and stuff and did a lot of work on myself leading up to that.

[87] Of course, I'm still unlearning so much, but I knew that I wanted to do so much better.

[88] And so I really wanted to be the best version of myself entering into motherhood.

[89] But you certainly learn as you go.

[90] And I'm still learning so much every day.

[91] I have teens and tweens.

[92] So it's like, ooh, they're humbling me every day.

[93] Like it's their job.

[94] Tips and tricks.

[95] Go to therapy, heal yourself.

[96] Hi, I'm Julia from season five, episodes one and two.

[97] Tiffany, I wanted to ask, do your kids have any knowledge or understanding about there being no contact with Liz?

[98] And have they ever asked about her?

[99] I super appreciate you.

[100] Thank you so much for everything you do.

[101] Hi, Julia, I love you so much.

[102] My kids do know that I am by choice in no contact with my parents.

[103] They know that my dad was in prison.

[104] They know that my brother was murdered by the police.

[105] Jude and Ruby know, that they did used to see her when they were babies, but they have no memory of her at all.

[106] The only reason they remember is in some of the old photo books.

[107] There's photos and they'll be like, who's that?

[108] And I'll say, oh, that's my mom.

[109] That's Liz.

[110] I think I've just tried to be honest and only share what's necessary and try to do it in the most age appropriate, but transparent way possible.

[111] So they ask me a question.

[112] I try to really give it a thoughtful response.

[113] understandably, it's really sad for them to think about me being in pain because they love me. So I try really hard to avoid talking to them about it unless it's important to the topic.

[114] So it's definitely not something that I discuss in front of them.

[115] I have told them I don't want them to listen to the podcast.

[116] They are really curious and they want to hear certain things.

[117] So I told them I'd play them some of the parts from the ninth episode where we're talking about like the podcast going number one.

[118] a few of the funner moments that I feel comfortable with them hearing.

[119] And they know a little bit about the work that I do.

[120] Certainly, I don't discuss it in detail.

[121] Sometimes they accidentally have heard things.

[122] It's not perfect all the time, being that I worked from home.

[123] They are very understanding about the importance of the podcast and the work and very respectful of the survivors themselves.

[124] They're very empathetic human beings.

[125] For example, I was talking to them about season 17 because a big box had come in the mail with the trial transcript for season 17.

[126] I can't remember which kid asked, but they said, what is the story about?

[127] And I said it's about a little boy who was murdered by a very bad person.

[128] And mommy is helping his mommy share her story to try and help people so that we can educate people on the things that we can look for and be aware of to try and help prevent things like this happening in the future.

[129] And it's hard because that's really sad, but it helps them understand a little bit why sometimes Mommy comes out of work and she's maybe in a bit more serious mood or needs an extra nap.

[130] I don't want to give them more than they need to handle, but it's natural for them to be curious about what the show is about.

[131] I try to be as vague as possible.

[132] But they also live in this world and they see trauma every day.

[133] They see shootings and hear about shooting drills at school.

[134] They also live in this world.

[135] So they do already have an awareness of how.

[136] So sometimes there is life circumstances that essentially open the pathway for that conversation to happen naturally.

[137] But I certainly prefer to talk to the kids about puppies and K -pop and anime and food and rides and all the things that they love.

[138] My name is Lily and I am a junior producer and social media manager with something was wrong.

[139] I've been working with Tiffany and Amy for about a year now.

[140] It's been very fun and honestly inspiring working with such talented or working driven women.

[141] before we even prompted people to ask questions so many people DMed saying does she realize how similar her life is to Matilda or this reminds me of Matilda, etc. It's been so long since I saw Matilda.

[142] I was just going to say in the previous question about the kids that one time my daughter said to me, your life sounds like Matilda.

[143] I did love that movie when I was a kid, but was the mom horrible?

[144] The mom was empty and absolutely abetted the father in his con man ways.

[145] I probably blocked it out, but yeah, that's so funny about the Matilda thing.

[146] That's hilarious.

[147] I feel like that is a sign I should get bangs tomorrow because I was thinking about it.

[148] Okay, that just sealed it.

[149] That's why stories are important because even fictional stories can give us hope other kids exist like us.

[150] Would you be willing to share how you've grieved the parents that you definitely should have had and deserved?

[151] I think that grief is unfortunately a lifelong process.

[152] I think that grief has happened a lot of different times when I would hope that my mom was going to show up differently for me and that didn't happen.

[153] And there was grief along the way.

[154] I don't experience that grief as much post -decision.

[155] I think I really grieved it as I made the decision because it's such a big one.

[156] People have brought up.

[157] How are you going to feel when you hear that they're dead knowing that you chose to not speak with them beyond my 20s.

[158] Really, I ended my relationship with both of them in my 20s at different times.

[159] Even though I am estranged by choice, I still worry about them harming me and finding me and getting a hold of me somehow and having to deal with it.

[160] I don't really feel grief.

[161] I still just feel fear after a lifetime of their bullshit, to be honest.

[162] It's not really grief.

[163] It's more fear and resentment.

[164] Grief I feel for Bobby, obviously.

[165] that grief is so significant.

[166] It's hard to even think about grieving my parents, even though there's so many different levels of grief, in types of grief.

[167] But in processing grief with Bobby, I think it's been really beneficial talking about it more and working through it with the season.

[168] I've not only been strong enough to honor my own experience, but I've shared with people about what he went through and fully advocating for him in this way.

[169] It makes me feel, proud knowing that both of us have been honored, both of our experiences and what we endured and overcame.

[170] So that makes me feel proud.

[171] You've done a beautiful job honoring Bobby.

[172] There's an image that I once saw that never has left me. It's an image of jars and a big ball that symbolizes the grief.

[173] And the jars start small around this huge ball.

[174] And as it goes on, it shows a larger jar and a larger jar.

[175] And basically, the grief does not change.

[176] That big ball in the center of us, that loss doesn't change, but we grow around it.

[177] I think it explains how you feel like you're growing around that grief.

[178] You're never going to feel less grief for losing Bobby.

[179] You're never going to miss him less.

[180] But you grow around it and it feels and fits differently.

[181] Yeah.

[182] And maybe one day I'll be able to connect with his daughter and that will also bring future healing.

[183] I think about that too.

[184] It's very complex.

[185] It's a new normal you get used to.

[186] And it's not like it gets easier, but you get used to it.

[187] That all makes complete sense.

[188] I'm sure you've spoken to Amy about this, but you talking about how the season itself has been cathartic and especially revisiting Bobby.

[189] I'm sure that is a different version of healing.

[190] Yeah.

[191] It helps you just, like, map it out and see the full picture.

[192] Having to articulate it and think about how you want to say it, it forces you to make sense of things if you haven't yet in order to communicate it.

[193] I think that's why it can be affected.

[194] even if you're not communicating it to the public, even with just yourself or with trusted partners, because I think that reflection and that analyzing and sitting with and trying to make sense of, for some, can be really beneficial.

[195] Looking at the big picture in terms of validation, I think I really needed that.

[196] I hope it'll clear this space within me. I'm Dan Taberski.

[197] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[198] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[199] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[200] She's like, I can't.

[201] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[202] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[203] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[204] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[205] Well, you were holding something back.

[206] Intentionally.

[207] Yeah, yeah.

[208] Well, yeah.

[209] No, it's hysteria.

[210] It's all in your head.

[211] It's not physical.

[212] Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[213] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Sam?

[214] them?

[215] Or is it something else entirely?

[216] Something's wrong here.

[217] Something's not right.

[218] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[219] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[220] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[221] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

[222] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[223] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[224] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[225] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[226] What happens next?

[227] Depends on who you ask.

[228] Was it a crime of passion?

[229] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[230] This was clearly an intentional act.

[231] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[232] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[233] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[234] Everyone had an opinion.

[235] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[236] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[237] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date.

[238] of the sensational case in Karen.

[239] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

[240] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[241] A listener wants to know if you're aware of where Bob and Liz are currently.

[242] Last I heard was Michael had seen Everett on a Facebook group for people driving for a ride share service.

[243] And in the comment, he had mentioned that they were living up 50 is what we call it in Sacramento.

[244] Last I knew of, Liz and Everett had purchased a home after they got their settlement pretty close to where Bob and his businesses have been.

[245] I don't know in the last two years, I haven't made any efforts to figure out where they are, but they're around.

[246] And I think that's been tough for me sometimes in the past, depending on where I'm out emotionally, going places and knowing that I could run into.

[247] to them at those places was a fear that I have had to kind of get used to and deal with.

[248] Another listener wants to know if you have any kind of contact or relationship with anyone from your family.

[249] I shared a little bit on the season.

[250] I met both my grandmothers once.

[251] I'd never met either my grandfathers.

[252] I never met any real aunts or uncles or had any cousins ever.

[253] I do not have contact with my older brothers over the last few years.

[254] The uncles I would have been in contact on my mom's side.

[255] Like, I never knew them.

[256] They were incarcerated.

[257] And when I looked them up on Facebook, they seemed really fucking racist and gross.

[258] So I was like, I'm good.

[259] I'm rich in chosen family.

[260] Hi, this is Kaelin from season 14.

[261] Tiffany, I know you uncovered a lot of information you didn't know about your parents and their colleagues.

[262] I was just wondering what you felt like was the most shocking discovery.

[263] Love you.

[264] I think the level of harm that Bob caused, just knowing more details from the appeal paperwork, about Liz's involvement and these other businesses that were in her name.

[265] The most shocking piece for me with Rubin was the fact that he didn't even know that I existed, which I guess shouldn't surprise me, but it's also just kind of ironic given I was always the person who held our family unit together leading up to all of this shit and then to not even be known as especially like in regards to Bobby when I know how deeply Bobby felt for me and vice versa for him to not even know about me. That was probably one of the harder pieces to hear.

[266] What about you, Amy?

[267] Honestly, I think the most shocking thing that we found was the March 223 article.

[268] And then we found all this information about coffee sitting in his warehouse.

[269] The 50 years just cracks me up.

[270] And by the way, I wrote to the SACB March 23rd author and they never wrote back.

[271] I also wrote to him and he did not write back, which was I felt was different than the other article because the other one was featuring many.

[272] The other one was like a toe dip compared to this one, 50 year.

[273] I mean, Sack B. The irony is so rich too because Bob hated the Sack B when I was a kid.

[274] Hearing the finale this morning and hearing back the pieces and the appeal about the bullshit stories that he would give people, like about, oh, this caught on fire or this is stuck in Florida or whatever horse shit he came up with.

[275] It's not funny at all, but it was making me laugh because I'm like, this is exactly what he does.

[276] Because I've spent so many years away from them trying to focus on other things, it's been a good reminder that you made the absolute right choice and these people are unhinged.

[277] This guy is doing the same.

[278] And I just pray he doesn't remember my social security number.

[279] Hey, this is Jenna.

[280] from Season 15, Episode 6.

[281] In my episode, I mentioned how after my experience of dating a narcissistic, emotionally abusive liar, I stopped dating for a really long time.

[282] I'm actually just now starting to get back into the dating scene, and I'm wondering how to bring up past trauma with new people and new relationships.

[283] I think it's really important to share this with people so they can better understand me, especially in relationships, but I'm not sure how to broach the subject and how much to share or what to share.

[284] What advice do you have for people about sharing their trauma or stories and experiences with new loved ones in your life?

[285] I love you, Jenna.

[286] You're awesome.

[287] I've only known you a short time, but you're so much fun.

[288] This is my opinion.

[289] And what I have learned about healthy relationships over the past few years, is that when someone is really serious about you, they're willing to take their time.

[290] They are in no hurry because they are taking it seriously and they are willing to invest in you.

[291] And it shows in their approach.

[292] I think that people need to earn the right to some of that information, not in a egocentric way, but in a self -protection way.

[293] So in my opinion, I don't think you should enter dating like, here is all my stuff, day one.

[294] What you should be learning on your first few dates is just if you guys get along, if you have chemistry, and if you have enough to keep seeing each other.

[295] I think too often people try to jump into relationships too quickly and don't allow enough time to allow feelings and the relationship to naturally develop.

[296] And I don't know if that's because as a society, we're just so used to things being faster and more instantly gratifying.

[297] Or we think that you can know somebody just by viewing a profile or their social media because of the sort of detached reality of social media.

[298] I think it is important to share those things, but after the person has sort of gained your trust and you've had time to see this person in different circumstances, learn enough information about them, maybe have met people who know this person, this person is vetted to your comfort.

[299] They have already shown you that they respect your boundaries, that they tell the truth, that they are a kind and validating person, and you're interested in sharing more about yourself and taking your relationship to the next level, that's when I personally would say would be the appropriate time to share that with them and be open with it.

[300] The people that are right for you will support you and won't hold that against you.

[301] I've heard from survivors, sometimes stories where they share their trauma or somebody they're dating or interested in has heard about their trauma in one way or another.

[302] And then that person comes back and is like, you know what, this is just too much for me. And my response is always that is a them problem.

[303] And that speaks more about what they're trying to get out of dating.

[304] anyone who is meant for you is not going to think less of you due to your history of being victimized or abused.

[305] They can be so triggering to share it with people that aren't safe.

[306] So that's an absolute brilliant piece of advice.

[307] You build trust slowly.

[308] I used to be somebody who would just go in and be like, well, here's all my shit.

[309] And then people who I hadn't vetted could use that shit.

[310] Now I tend to share things with those I have already built trust with.

[311] and built relationships with.

[312] Of course, I can always meet new people and build that relationship with new people, but it's led to less hurt for me, being more choosy about who and when I share the softest parts of myself.

[313] What are some ways that a person could identify important ways to support their partner?

[314] I love this question.

[315] Michael's a human being like us all, so he's a work in progress such as myself.

[316] Even through this process and working on the season and stuff, like it's a continual conversation that we have, both honoring each other's needs and space and what is helpful or unhelpful to share with one another.

[317] And so I would say communication is really key.

[318] And I think what we've learned over the years is that holding space and just listening is really the majority of what people are looking for and that we've found is helpful to our relationship.

[319] If he's sharing with me, something that he's going through listening and holding space and validating the emotion that the other person is experiencing, and then asking, do you want my perspective on this?

[320] Like, how can I support you?

[321] Getting people's consent before just jumping in with our opinions, especially as it relates to each other's trauma.

[322] And I think that that's important.

[323] So yeah, I think knowing yourself and knowing your partner and trying to hold space without judgment or without needing to relieve your own emotional pain when somebody shares something with you.

[324] And I think a lot of times that's why we naturally want to fix things for people when they share stuff with us.

[325] The intention is good.

[326] We want to help other people.

[327] But I think also we want to alleviate the maybe sadness or stress we feel emotionally for the person we love going through what they're going through.

[328] And that can cloud sometimes our responses, also having identity apart from each other.

[329] That's always been important to me. I'm a very fiercely independent person.

[330] So making time together and apart.

[331] A listener wants to know, as a fifth grade teacher, what can I do to help kids who may have had similar home lives as you did?

[332] First of all, thank you for the work you do.

[333] It's extremely important.

[334] I've gotten several messages from teachers and nurses saying that it meant a lot to have their work and the importance of the jobs that they do acknowledged, and that made my heart feel very happy.

[335] It's just the truth.

[336] I think creating safe space for children to be themselves is so powerful, teaching kids' emotional intelligence strategies, teaching kids' safety strategies, helping them access different ways to be creative or express those emotions.

[337] And something that I think is important for children is for them to have a way to communicate that they need help or are in trouble where they can do it in a way that feels safe for them.

[338] I could never have imagined going up to my teacher and saying, hey, my mom hits me. However, if my teacher had note cards on her desk and she told everybody in the class, If you ever want to talk to me about something or tell me something that you need support on, you can write it on this card and we can talk about it, is like an example of how you can create less barriers for children to communicate and share.

[339] Because it's really scary when you're being abused at home.

[340] You know that people could find out, but for myself, part of the abuse was also having to be silent about it and having to pretend in public.

[341] There were several times where I would say to my parents, how about I fucking call CPS?

[342] How about that?

[343] Like as I got older, I'd get really brave and say something like that and I would regret it.

[344] I knew that there were things out there, but it's just so hard when you're a kid and you don't want to betray people even though they don't deserve your loyalty.

[345] I think just being a safe space, being a safe harbor any way you can to children is really impactful.

[346] This is actually a question from Danielle from season nine.

[347] such an inspiration for so many people, including myself, and I think that your authenticity and vulnerability make people connect with you and your journey in so many ways.

[348] You mentioned struggling with anxiety and depression, which I think so many people can relate to.

[349] Years ago, my practitioner called everything I was doing to treat my own anxiety, my quote unquote toolkit.

[350] So my question for you to share with your listeners is what are the things in your toolkit that have helped you when it gets overwhelming?

[351] We all know you're doing five million things.

[352] What do you do to heal and what do you do to overcome those overwhelming feelings?

[353] What's in your toolkit?

[354] I love you, Danielle.

[355] Some things that work for me, and again, it's never perfect and certainly things come up and you get triggered or life circumstances happen.

[356] It's not linear.

[357] But I'll just like walk you through my day to day self -care.

[358] I try to get a full night of sleep as much as possible.

[359] That means often saying no to things and going to bed early because I know that if I don't get at least six, eight hours of sleep, my emotional capacity and ability to be present is lessened.

[360] That's a huge one for me. Two is making time to do things that aren't work or looking at my phone when I wake up in the morning.

[361] What I like to do right now is I wake up, I make coffee and drink water, I put music on and I dance, and then I go outside and I sit in the sunshine, although sunshine isn't always available, but I try to get early morning sunlight for at least 10 to 20 minutes before I start work.

[362] So before I've started work, I've already made time for myself, moved my body, and gone outside.

[363] Implementing this strategy in the last few months has been positively impacting my mental health and has definitely served me through this emotionally challenging time to just make more space for things like that to care for myself.

[364] Another way that I've been taking better care of my anxiety and myself is trying to eat before new.

[365] which may sound silly to some people, but for me is huge.

[366] I try to eat something brain food, essentially.

[367] Before noon is another strategy that I try to take to help curb anxiety.

[368] I also have made an effort to be drinking less caffeine because it overstimulates and can increase anxiety significantly.

[369] I try to cut that off in the afternoons.

[370] If possible, I try to eat at least two meals a day.

[371] Another strategy that I've been working on is spending more time with my kids and loved ones, playing cards together, going for a walk with the dog, prioritizing that, even if that means sometimes something getting turned in a little bit late or saying no to something else.

[372] They are the reason I work so hard and my life is better when I get to spend more time with them because I do have less time with them than I used to when they were younger.

[373] I really try to focus on quality over the quantity that I wish I had, things that we can do together that are specific to their personalities and interests to make the time that we do have together special.

[374] Making them happy makes me happy.

[375] So that's self -care too.

[376] I used to overextend myself.

[377] That's when you can get towards like burnout territory.

[378] I'm in this for the long run.

[379] And so I'm really trying to think about always how can I make my process as thoughtful and strategic as possible so that I can maintain this same energy long term.

[380] Because it does cost a lot of energy, the topics and things can be really dark and heavy and it can be emotionally overwhelming.

[381] So the strategies I've found are really helpful to making it through the week and not feeling like you have nothing left inside of you.

[382] to give.

[383] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[384] I'm Sachi Cole.

[385] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[386] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[387] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills.

[388] an active lawsuit followed by Larry King and no real product to push.

[389] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[390] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[391] Follow scam influencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[392] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[393] This one's a bit more open -ended regarding mental health.

[394] Just in general, how does your spirit not get broken, especially considering all you've went through?

[395] The true answer is that sometimes it does feel like too much, and it is so heartbreaking.

[396] There's a lot of survivors that I speak to that don't end up on the podcast, but we're connecting them with resources or we speak, and then it ends up not being the right fit for them to be on the show and what's in their best interest.

[397] previous to working in the docu -series space, I was someone who needed to avoid any sort of content, if possible, that involved the harming of children.

[398] Sometimes because of the work that I do, I end up hearing about things that are very emotionally distressing.

[399] And I'm trying to focus, of course, my attention on being as supportive as possible to the person who is being brave enough to share what they're sharing with me. It's hard sometimes to not cry when you're hearing somebody emotional.

[400] I get off a call sometimes and I just want to like hug my kids and I'll tell them and try to be honest with them.

[401] Like I'm working on a really hard story you guys this week and I'm going to be coming out of these recordings looking really sad.

[402] I can tell you right now just because I know what content we're going to get into.

[403] Now I will be aware enough about it.

[404] Actually, couple weeks ago.

[405] I had something like that coming up and Michael encouraged me. I had told him that I was feeling that way and he said, I think it would be good for you to share that with the kids.

[406] So at dinner, before I went into the recording, I told the kids like, hey, I'm going to be doing this recording.

[407] It's a very heavy topic and a very sad topic.

[408] Afterwards, I'm probably going to be needing some alone time and we'll want to just go to bed early.

[409] And they were completely understanding about it.

[410] But I think just making space for myself and coping ahead can help me budget my energy a little bit better.

[411] And that's just something over the years I've had to learn as I've gone through different things and worked with different people.

[412] What triggers me and what limits I need to set for myself.

[413] Learn as you go.

[414] My name is Eridian and I was a part of season eight.

[415] The thing that I could not get out of my head was just how you navigate a relationship with such narcissistic parents.

[416] My question for Tiffany is, have you ever consumed any media that resonated with you in a similar fashion, making you feel understood and heard, how did it make you feel or how do you think that plays into your journey as being able to share your own story and experience?

[417] Thank you so much for sharing this with us because it made me feel so heard.

[418] Hearing your own experience and being someone that was a part of your show, that has also gotten the chance to hear your story.

[419] That's just a great privilege to have, and I really want to thank you.

[420] I love you so much, Aridian.

[421] I mean, the real answer is what the survivors have shared, both on the podcast and off.

[422] They have made me stronger, braver, smarter, more empathetic.

[423] It's all them.

[424] I really don't have emotional capacity outside of work to take in any sort of new media.

[425] I pretty much just watch Seinfeld, Curbier Enthusiasm, The Office, Broad City, Parks and Rec, and Schitts Creek in a circular motion, an ugly Betty.

[426] Those same shows, comfort shows, over and over and over.

[427] I can tell you a project that I loved because of how the survivors' voices were validated and uplifted was the podcast believed by Michigan Radio and NPR, an incredible series with the voices of Larry Nassar victims, gymnasts that were harmed by this supposed doctor who was a abuser predator and eventually would serve time in prison for his crimes.

[428] It's such a good podcast, and the survivors' voices are incredibly impactful.

[429] Murder in Middle Beach by Madison Hamburg, one of the documentaries that definitely impacted me. I believe it's on HBO Max, a young man who's lost his mother to murder, whose father maybe has some con man tendencies.

[430] I thought it was just so well done and it had so much heart.

[431] It was so compelling.

[432] Madison did such a great job and his family's insights were so impactful and I just thought it was really great to see a young man, a young male survivor, sharing so openly his experiences and his emotions in the public.

[433] And I think we need more of that.

[434] And I actually wrote him in the last few months.

[435] I'm not somebody to do that, but because as I was thinking of my own story and how I wanted to tell it and knowing that he was an influence.

[436] I had messaged him and thanked him and he was very sweet, message me back.

[437] I basically just told him like, thank you when male survivors speak out or anyone who's a member of a community that maybe is less likely to share.

[438] It helps other survivors come forward.

[439] And I think toxic masculinity hurts everyone, including men, and so many men are raised on the idea that showing their emotions is weak.

[440] I think we need more of people like Madison sharing openly and being really vulnerable.

[441] I actually remember watching that documentary whenever it came out.

[442] That one was really well done.

[443] And it's really easy, I think, to differentiate authentic storytelling and stuff that's very personal to the creator or whatever team is behind the project.

[444] Which kind of ties into to another question.

[445] Someone wanted to know, what are some of the biggest problems with true crime and how you think it should change?

[446] As I spoke to in the finale, part of the motivation in starting something was wrong was seeing the gaps in true crime that I consumed at the time when I was commuting between Sacramento and San Francisco, being that there was so many less shows then in like 2015, 16, 17, 18, I felt like I had consumed every show that was out at the time.

[447] So part of the motivation for starting something was wrong and the creative intention behind it for sure was that I really learned from hearing people's lived experiences and prefer to hear things from firsthand accounts.

[448] What I was seeing a lot of the time was people taking stories from the news or Wikipedia without the survivors or their families' consent, digging into their trauma.

[449] and crimes that had been committed and some of the verbiage and approach for me before I ever even thought about creating a podcast just didn't sit right with me. Also, I think that I have learned a lot as a creator through hearing survivors and what is harmed them.

[450] And a lot of the work that Amy does on what came next and the topics about the intersection of true crime and media and survivors has made me even more aware.

[451] And I learn and grow as a person too, even as somebody who entered the space wanting to be, I hate to use the word because it's so succession, disruptive, or offer something different, make space for our community.

[452] I think it's one thing when it's your lived experience and you're coping through humor or you are a, participant within an experience.

[453] That is a different thing in my mind than, let's say, somebody reading about my brother's story online, taking it onto their platform without my consent, and then talking about my brother's murder as if it's like celebrity gossip in a style in which I wouldn't agree with and I would feel uncomfortable with, which actually happened to Amy this year.

[454] how harmful that can be, especially when it's done in a way that doesn't honor victims or doesn't approach these topics with empathy at the forefront.

[455] I just think if you're going to be in this space and consume this content, I hope that you could at least have the respect for the lives lost, those harmed, and their families.

[456] What I can tell you is that through the interviews that I've done, or listen to over these years is that those who have lost loved ones to murder don't find your jokes about murder funny.

[457] And their opinion matters way more to me than anyone else because they're the most harmed by the lack of empathy and care.

[458] It isn't the whole point of documentaries and true crime and the media to shed light on things to make them better and to fight for justice, not to re -traumatize and harm.

[459] I think we're in a different place than we were in 2018 when the trailer for something was wrong came out.

[460] I also think that I, too, have a lot to learn and will continue to hopefully learn and evolve and adapt myself and be accountable to adapting or pivoting language when new information is presented.

[461] That kind of leads us right into a question someone had.

[462] They wanted to know what do you want in the future for something was wrong and what came next?

[463] You know, it's wild, but like I feel like all my dreams have come true.

[464] What I hope to see in the future for something was wrong is more diversity in voices and stories and continuing to work with survivors.

[465] Honestly, I would love to do this for the rest of my life forever.

[466] So I'm going to keep doing this as long as I can.

[467] at least that's how I feel about it right now.

[468] I love working on what came next with Amy and I hope to see that continue to grow and evolve.

[469] And we have a lot of new potential projects and planned projects that will be coming out in the future for Broken Cycle Media.

[470] I'm really excited about that.

[471] I feel really lucky when I wake up that I'm excited to go to work every day and that I miss work when I'm away from it.

[472] And that's how I feel like 99 % of the time, which is pretty fucking.

[473] lucky.

[474] Hey Tiffany, it's J .E. from the Tree of Life episodes.

[475] The question I have for you is whether sharing your story has given you a different perspective as to how you'll approach the stories that future subjects of future seasons share with you, whether or not it will inform the questions you ask them or the ways in which you view the stories they share.

[476] I love you so much.

[477] You're incredible.

[478] amazing.

[479] Thank you for sharing your story.

[480] Love you.

[481] I'm sure it'll influence and impact it because I always kind of change things up.

[482] I will continue to center the person whose story we're telling for sure, but maybe it'll just naturally lend to the ability for other people to know me and feel more comfortable working with me. But I don't foresee that process changing.

[483] Maybe it's more cutting less of myself out because what I did realize in hearing Amy's, perspectives back, like as she's interviewing me and her sharing similar insights that I usually share with survivors, but then cut out because I was deeming myself as being too much, I can now see that it can be really valuable to include those insights for the listeners to hear the support that's offered a lot of times gets clipped because I really loved hearing Amy's voice and what she had to say or the other voices in the season.

[484] I didn't feel like them sharing their perspectives or opinions took away from my experience of sharing.

[485] In fact, it made me feel even more validated and supported and comfortable.

[486] So I think I'll definitely take that information with me, but from everything, like how we approach the interview process, do you want to speak for a while and then just let me know when you want to take a break and I jump in with questions?

[487] Do you want me to prompt you with questions after you finish each section?

[488] Like, all of these things are dependent on what is comfortable and appropriate for each individual.

[489] I adapt my process to whatever their needs are, and then we create from what we have to create from.

[490] And I don't ever want to get away from prioritizing survivors' needs first or centering them first.

[491] But I think, yeah, I may leave in a few more insights than I used to.

[492] I think that the last question we have left kind of piggybacks off of J .E.'s question from a creator's standpoint, now having finished the season and being forced to see your experiences from a documentarian's perspective, how do you think that's affected the way you see your familial history and the trauma that you went through?

[493] And has that change in vision change the way you navigate life or your healing?

[494] Gosh, I think I'm still processing to be transparent.

[495] It's still like, okay, we're getting this all done, okay, this is going to go out.

[496] I still am in that mode hearing and seeing everything put together not only hearing people's validating accounts or learning this stuff and being validated through that, but then collecting it and it goes in a timeline and then here here's the evidence.

[497] And then here we're going to put it into these episodes.

[498] So now it's in black and white on a page.

[499] From the page we take it to audio and then we hear draft one and two and da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da.

[500] You really have a lot of time to sit with it.

[501] And so it's been very heavy and exhausting.

[502] But I think it has allowed me to really sit with it and see it in a very holistic way.

[503] That has been confidence building within myself and validating my own trauma in a very different way.

[504] What I've noticed already is I have more empathy and compassion for myself and I'm gaslighting myself a little bit less, second guessing myself a little bit less, which feels really great.

[505] Just hearing people's support or that they could relate has been really valuable to my life.

[506] I'm really, really glad that I did it and I'm thankful that I did it.

[507] And I now feel like, I keep saying free, but yeah, I just feel free in a totally different way.

[508] And also it's kind of like, I've gotten this huge thing done now that I've been putting off doing that I knew I wanted to do.

[509] It's nice now to be getting closer to the other side of it.

[510] I didn't realize how much it was weighing me down and how much it was impacting and holding me back from so much good by not sharing sooner.

[511] I definitely would encourage people to share how it feels right to them, but I know that for a lot of us, it doesn't feel natural to make space for yourself, especially if you've grown up with a narcissistic parent and you've been conditioned to put on a happy face and appease the narcissist at every turn.

[512] It is your turn to make space for your feelings and find a way to do that however feels comfortable for you because you deserve it.

[513] And there is a lot of healing on the other side that you can give yourself through sitting with your own journey and allowing yourself to be proud of yourself, especially as women when society is fixated on humbling us at every turn, and misogyny is obsessed with humbling women.

[514] We deserve to take up space to live as our full selves and find joy and peace.

[515] I love that we ended basically right where we started with freedom and joy.

[516] It's finding that inner balance and not keeping that turmoil inside, too.

[517] I love you.

[518] You're amazing.

[519] Thank you both so, so much.

[520] Thank you, thank you for all your work.

[521] You guys are awesome.

[522] We love having you on the team and seeing the team grow.

[523] Thank you for including me on this.

[524] It's a great experience.

[525] There's a lot of good to come and I'm happy that you are here and a part of it.

[526] It's wild.

[527] Lily was a listener and then intern and now our first full -time employee because she's fucking awesome.

[528] That's another cool thing.

[529] I was like watching the fireworks last night and I don't know.

[530] It just hit different.

[531] I was just feeling really grateful.

[532] to be where I am now compared to years past.

[533] You have so much to celebrate and a lot of it has been what you've done for yourself.

[534] Thank you.

[535] I really couldn't have done it without the help of everybody and one thing I forgot to say too really quick in the finale when I was reflecting and thanking people is the people who supported the show on Patreon in the early days.

[536] I just wanted to say thank you to those people because honestly there was times where that money was the only production budget that the show had and every bit helped.

[537] The amount of positive feedback you've been receiving through Instagram, TikTok, everything from that end, everyone is grateful and impressed.

[538] It seems to be resonating with a bunch of people.

[539] Not that other seasons haven't, but I think it's a bit different hearing your actual story and the slightly different angle than you have taken in other seasons.

[540] This one just has resonated.

[541] differently with a lot of people.

[542] Thank you so much for sharing that.

[543] And thank you to anyone who has sent in their kind words or encouragement or shared the season.

[544] It really means a lot.

[545] And I'm still making my way through messages.

[546] But every time I read one, I screenshot it and I save it for a rainy day.

[547] It means a lot.

[548] And it's very kind.

[549] And I'm sorry that so many people can relate.

[550] But I'm thankful to hear that it has been validating for people.

[551] If I haven't responded yet, I'm going to do my best to do so.

[552] Thank you so much for listening.

[553] Until next time, stay safe, friends.

[554] Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production.

[555] Created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[556] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram, at Something Was Wrong podcast.

[557] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags.

[558] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[559] Thank you so much.

[560] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[561] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon music.

[562] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.