#2100 - Cameron Hanes & Steven Rinella

[0] Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

[1] The Joe Rogan Experience.

[2] Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[3] We're good to go.

[4] All right.

[5] Steve Renella, Cam Haynes.

[6] What's happening?

[7] Good to see you, guys.

[8] Thanks for having me out, man. My pleasure.

[9] Cam, explain that ridiculous thing around your neck.

[10] What are you talking about?

[11] Oh, this?

[12] That thing.

[13] Oh.

[14] Where am I?

[15] What camera am?

[16] Right there?

[17] Yeah.

[18] So this is, uh, How badass is this?

[19] Solid gold mold of, this is my first brown bear I killed with Roy.

[20] So they made a mold off this claw.

[21] I had this just tanned hide laying around.

[22] I'm like, I got a, we got to, I don't know, what's it going to do?

[23] Just lay there?

[24] So I'm like, I got to have something.

[25] And I took it to Ski's jeweler, which has been in Eugene for 104 years.

[26] So it's kind of a cool little story.

[27] And they came up with this crazy necklace.

[28] So it's, oh, they wanted me to tell you, it's, it's re uh what is it it's not not newly mine gold it's reclaimed oh reclaimed yeah yeah so they're not ruining the planet to get it so they want to this is like reclaimed gold but it's solid and then there's six carrots of rubies on there and black diamond so so the rubies if this is a ridiculous thing you're talking about yeah yeah okay that was it yeah so the ruby that's a lot of pawn shop wedding rings laid up in there man I know a lot of failed marriages Like that's what I came from.

[29] Pretty sure.

[30] Yeah, like 50 failed marriages right here.

[31] And the rubies look like blood.

[32] So what they did was it's pretty fucking dope.

[33] They made the rubies, if you could hold it up for the camera that people could see it.

[34] The rubies look like it's dipped in blood.

[35] There's black diamonds too.

[36] Oh, nice.

[37] That's a lot, dude.

[38] You're bawling out of control, son.

[39] I know.

[40] It's crazy.

[41] So the last, I had that one from Scooby, the C -8.

[42] He made me never worn it since, but I wore it here.

[43] Then the last time I had, my son had an ivory from a bull I killed in Arizona.

[44] He just put it on a leather strap, and that was my last podcast adornment.

[45] Now, here we are.

[46] Cody Garbrand gave me one that has my dog's face on one side.

[47] And the other side that has the J .R .E. logo.

[48] I'm like, either one of them is too weird for me to wear.

[49] Carved into an ivory?

[50] No, no, no, it's solid gold.

[51] Oh, solid gold.

[52] Yeah, that's an intricate carving.

[53] Yeah.

[54] It's so ridiculous.

[55] hey no there's no limit now do you got any jewelry vanilla come on Steve no no nothing no no no no no tattoos no they'll never if I ever turn up dead to lake they won't be able to identify me do you have a rubber wedding ring do you wear one of those well I went from regular to silicon to nothing yeah I don't wear one anymore my wife doesn't wear one very often oh yeah no don't wear one I'd yell at my wife yeah what Where the fuck are you going?

[56] Well, I know, but I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, it's not like anyone comes in, it's not like anyone comes in scams on me now, you know, I'm a little beyond that.

[57] I just smell like, I smell like a married dude.

[58] I don't need that thing.

[59] I get it.

[60] I don't know.

[61] I just always, I don't mind wearing it.

[62] And I love these silicone ones.

[63] These are really great.

[64] You can lift weights to them.

[65] I don't do, I do everything in them.

[66] I had a couple accidents, the snag in it, and then arched it on a battery, the metal one.

[67] Yeah.

[68] And then I got on this thing, and people were sending us all these pictures, too, of what they called de -gloving.

[69] She thing.

[70] Yeah, where you pull it off.

[71] Man, we got just people sending horrible pictures like guys catching them on a ladder rack on a truck and then like jumping down.

[72] Oh, endless.

[73] And that cured me forever of that metal one.

[74] Yeah, I kept the metal one in a little baggy.

[75] I will wear the metal one if I go to dinner with my wife.

[76] Oh, really?

[77] Or if I'm doing the UFC, I'll wear the metal one if I have a nice watch on.

[78] But I never wear it other than that.

[79] Oh, that's cute that you put it on at dinner.

[80] I'm going to do that sometime.

[81] We do date nights.

[82] Do you put your ring on?

[83] Yeah.

[84] I'm going to start doing that.

[85] Well, I always wear my rubber ring, but the silicone ring, but the metal one I'll put out, going out.

[86] That's a nice one on.

[87] Dude, I'm going to take that little tip, man. It's a good tip.

[88] It's a good tip for date night.

[89] I had to use mine for this.

[90] My wedding ring.

[91] Your wife's like, where's your wedding ring?

[92] Wow.

[93] You know the necklace I got.

[94] I still have it.

[95] It's just assumed it's final form.

[96] I wear it all the time.

[97] I'm wearing it right now.

[98] My buddy in Alaska, he had, his wife kept all of her jewelry in this little box in their house burnt down.

[99] And he later went and found all that stuff.

[100] Like it melted into a blob.

[101] So she took that blob and took it to a jewelry and had that blob turned into a big old necklace.

[102] So it's just like this amorphous glob.

[103] Oh, the glob with no change to it?

[104] Oh, yeah, like this amorphous glob of gold that she'll put on down.

[105] And it was like all of her, like, stuff in this little pile that melt, yeah, melted together.

[106] That must have been a fucking hell of a fire.

[107] Oh, yeah.

[108] Oh, no, it was for sure.

[109] And she didn't, like, wear it, wear it.

[110] But she would get out and be like, oh, here's all my.

[111] All that lumped.

[112] Here's all my stuff.

[113] Yeah, the jewelry thing is a weird thing, people that get really.

[114] One of the things we're going to do for Protect Our Parks, we've been talking about doing this, is get grills, like the rappers wear.

[115] Oh, yeah.

[116] We're all going to wear grills during the podcast, so we're going to get fitted with, like, diamond grills they take like a little diamond dust and you smile like Paul wall and you have a full mouthful of diamonds and I think it'd look badass that's my next move just fangs what I have a tooth that got knocked out and it's like one of those calves and one time we were drinking and I long when I was younger we were drinking and I was trying to open a there used to be that company that made tequila that had like a sombrero for a lid I don't know, and I was opening one of these bottles and broke that fake tooth off.

[117] And all night I'm going on about how I'm getting a gold because it's gone, you know.

[118] And all night I'm, like, making a plan, talking all this.

[119] And I woke up in the morning and looked in the mirror and I just wanted her regular white tooth bag so bad.

[120] Yeah, those things.

[121] So you opened it up with your tooth?

[122] Yeah, broke that tooth and then, like, got fired up about getting a gold one.

[123] And, no, it never did it.

[124] That would have been the closest thing I had toward jewelry with my gold tooth, but chickened out.

[125] That would look sick.

[126] Yeah, I thought about a gold tooth for brief moments, generally while of drinking, getting one of them.

[127] They have those, they just put a little diamond on it now.

[128] Yeah.

[129] My old man told me that during the war, guys would carry around dental picks.

[130] And he fought World War II.

[131] He said during the war, they would carry it around, and they would go and get all the they would get the gold out of German's teeth and save it up in a bag and there were certain guys who was just into it I remember as a kid asked him like hey would they ever get it from an American he goes that'd be a good way to get shot but they dig it out of there which is a macab business man yeah very macab people used to dig up graves to do that right yeah well the original fillings the silver ones were those lead don't know because they used to have fillings that were metal.

[132] And I remember people were saying, hey, those are fucking terrible for you.

[133] They figured it out years later.

[134] It's like living your whole life with a fish and sinker in your mouth, man. Have you seen, you saw Shane Gillis last night?

[135] How funny is that, dude?

[136] Oh, my God.

[137] He's hilarious.

[138] He's so funny.

[139] He had a bit about George Washington, and it's one of the funniest bits I've ever seen in my life.

[140] And George, it's a whole bit about going to the George Washington Museum because he's a real history buff.

[141] But one of the things was George Washington's teeth.

[142] Like, George Washington's teeth were teeth?

[143] No, no, they weren't wooden.

[144] They were set in lead.

[145] Oh, is that right?

[146] The fake thing that he had was set in lead.

[147] The top was horse teeth and the bottom was slave teeth.

[148] So they'd have teeth pulled from his slave.

[149] No. Yes.

[150] Yes.

[151] And then that thing was set in lead with springs on it.

[152] And that was George Washington's teeth.

[153] I mean, how fucking crazy is that?

[154] but his whole bit is about how George Washington had lead poisoning he was a fucking maniac because he was at the front of the line horse of donkeys just fucking hack you have to see the bit it's very funny folklore notwithstanding Washington's false teeth were not wooden he obtained them instead from horses donkeys cows and human beings according to his account books 1784 emulating some of his affluent friends he bought nine teeth from unidentified Negroes, perhaps enslaved African Americans at his beloved Mount Vernon.

[155] The price was 122 shillings.

[156] Yeah.

[157] I mean, imagine eating with that fucking monstrosity of lead in your...

[158] So he's got that in his mouth all the time.

[159] It's just getting lead poisoning.

[160] Hmm.

[161] That's pretty intense.

[162] Pretty intense.

[163] Having another dude's teeth in your mouth, too, is wild.

[164] Yeah.

[165] I had a cadaver bone in my jaw for a while, and you'd get little, you know, little pieces of it, and you're always spitting out little pieces of some guy.

[166] Whoa.

[167] Some other dude, you know?

[168] You had it for a while?

[169] They took it out?

[170] Well, no, it just heals up.

[171] Oh.

[172] So they drill a hole in there, and they fill it full of cadaver bone.

[173] Whoa.

[174] And I asked who the dude was, you know, they can't figure out who he was.

[175] I have, you're like all over your office or whatever.

[176] You're like, some little chunk of a guy, you don't know.

[177] My right knee is a cadaver ACLton, but it's not anymore.

[178] What happens is your body proliferates it.

[179] So it just acts as a scaffolding, and then your body just fills it in with its own tissue.

[180] They ever give you info about the person?

[181] No, no. I just don't get me a Viking.

[182] Get me some fucking gigantic dude.

[183] It's swinging at battle acts this whole life.

[184] They actually use the Achilles tendon, though, because it's much thicker than the original ACL.

[185] It's like 150 % stronger than an initial ACL.

[186] I would do that operation again in a heartbeat.

[187] I've always told everybody, I've had my knees done both ways.

[188] I have my left knee done with a Patelot tendon graft, which was the most painful and took forever to recover from.

[189] And then I had my right knee done with a cadaver graft.

[190] It was way easier.

[191] I went to a party five days after the operation with no crutches, no nothing.

[192] I just put a brace on and walked.

[193] and I was like, it just feels fine.

[194] I mean, it was obviously unstable, I guess.

[195] It was weaker, so I put the brace on.

[196] But I could walk around.

[197] Like, it was not that big a deal.

[198] The first one, I was in fucking agony for months, at least weeks.

[199] Because they have to saw, what they do is they take your pettalotendent, which is a very large, thick tendon.

[200] You don't need all of that.

[201] And they take a strip of it.

[202] Like peeling string cheese.

[203] Yeah, exactly.

[204] And then they take a chunk of your kneecap and a chunk of your shin.

[205] So they pull that out.

[206] And then they open you up like a fish.

[207] And then they screw it in on the top and screw it in the bottom.

[208] And that's your new ACL.

[209] So it's a part of your body.

[210] So your body accepts it.

[211] It's not like another person's tissue, which could be an issue.

[212] Your body might reject it.

[213] And then, you know, it takes a long -ass time before you can even get on your knees again.

[214] It took like a year before it doesn't bother me to, like, be on my knees.

[215] You know, like if you're hammering something or something.

[216] I couldn't get on that knee.

[217] It was just so fucking painful because, you know, you got a hole there and a hole in the kneecap, but it all fills in eventually.

[218] Hmm.

[219] Well.

[220] Both of them are fine now, but if I had to tell people if they're going to get the operation, get the fucking cadaver.

[221] Get that dead dude.

[222] That's risky.

[223] Now, what if you get a vegan that's a vaccinated cadaverer?

[224] Your knee's going to blow out like every day, every day.

[225] Like flimsy string cheese?

[226] Like when your bowstring is getting Frayed, you're like, damn, should I replace this?

[227] Like when your D -loop?

[228] This fucking vegan Screwed me on this ligament.

[229] Yeah.

[230] Poor vegans, man. You want to talk about people that have been sold bill of goods.

[231] Not very durable, are they?

[232] It's not just that.

[233] It's like there's so much propaganda that that is good for you.

[234] And there's so much evidence that it's not.

[235] And this mindset that these fucking people have where they're just like they believe the China study they believe meat causes cancer I've had conversations with people you try to be rational with them like if meat really caused cancer do you know that 95 % of the people on earth eat and like look at all the cancer but look at all the other food they eat do you understand how epidemiology studies work like when they you know when they have these arguments no one ever takes it to this like rational conclusion like what they do you know how they work the epidemiology studies no When they say, like, if they say there's been a correlation between high consumption of red meat and cancer.

[236] Oh, yeah.

[237] People eat red meat five times a week are much more likely than people.

[238] What are they eating with it?

[239] They don't take that into effect because it's not a real study.

[240] It's bullshit.

[241] What they're doing is just trying to come up with some biased interpretation of data that makes it seem more likely that meat is killing you.

[242] I was trying to explain correlation, causation, all that's my kid the other night.

[243] I was telling them about stuff like this.

[244] like education levels and divorce rates, right?

[245] I'm like, no one's going to untangle what it is, but you can look at these things and see that there's something going on, but no one knows exactly what, right?

[246] Yeah.

[247] So with this stuff like that, it's like, so did you eat a lot of meat?

[248] Uh -huh.

[249] Yeah.

[250] It's like, okay, well, yeah, and what form, where?

[251] What were you doing?

[252] It's not even what form.

[253] It's what else are you eating.

[254] Yeah.

[255] If they're only looking for red meat.

[256] So they're asking you in these studies, like, How many days a week do you eat red meat?

[257] And then you say five.

[258] And they say, well, we've gathered up all the data.

[259] And the people that eat red meat five days a week are much more likely to have cancer.

[260] Yeah, but most people who eat red meat are eating burgers.

[261] And they're eating burgers from like jack in the box or whatever.

[262] Or you get this bullshit bun.

[263] You get these fries that are made in seed oil.

[264] You're probably washing it down with a Coca -Cola.

[265] You're flooding your body with unnatural levels of sugar and these carbohydrates that are all processed with folic acid and bullshit and they're fucking terrible for you.

[266] And your gut is just inflamed and your whole body's freaked out and then do you smoke cigarettes and do you drink alcohol and do you live near a fucking power line?

[267] There's so many factors that lead you if it was just like I want to see a study on people who eat wild game or grass fed beef and just fucking vegetables.

[268] Like those studies?

[269] I bet those folks aren't getting like high instances of cancer.

[270] Cancer is like, there's a lot of environmental factors, there's a lot of, a lot of genetic factors, a lot of things that lead people to get cancer.

[271] It's not just what you eat.

[272] But when they say meat, like, what else are you eating?

[273] Why are you blaming meat?

[274] Well, what I used to do is go to McDonald's.

[275] So, yeah, I had red meat because in the burger, two plain hamburgers, large fry, apple pie, diet Coke, and a milkshake.

[276] Just think about all the bullshit in there.

[277] And they're like, do you eat a lot of meat?

[278] Uh -huh.

[279] Blame the meat.

[280] Right.

[281] It was like, look at, to your point, look at all that other shit, sugar and carbs.

[282] Exactly.

[283] That oil and that meal right there would probably kill you.

[284] Yeah.

[285] And some people, it's the same, people going through McDonald's or Burger King or Wendy's every single day getting their go -to.

[286] Yeah.

[287] So those are the people that you're asking about, do you eat red meat?

[288] Yeah.

[289] And of course they are.

[290] But look at all.

[291] But yeah, I just got my blood test yesterday from my kids.

[292] it tested every once in a while and my numbers are phenomenal i eat meat five times a day yeah i mean i'm eating meat all day all wild gay meat though i found that people also have i was talking this the day of my body sat where people also have a tendency to um find that they there's so much conflicting dietary information that people also will find something aligns with their aesthetic yeah right the or that aligns with their political sensibility meaning um someone you know if your general tendency is to be opposed to meat production certain agricultural practices and you see an article where it says you know high meat diet correlates with cancer they're going to read that with great enthusiasm yes yeah confirmation because they're going to be like oh this lines up with a bunch of shit I already think yeah you know and so when we were talking about this we're trying to I was sort of teasing out right like I like to have a garden I like to hunt and I look with fondness upon data that suggests that eating like fresh veggies and meat is really good for you and it definitely feels good but I'm sort of like am I I mean, do I make the same mistake that I tease other people for making?

[293] Like, if I read some study that said, you know, eating mule deer's, you know, the best thing you can possibly do, I'd be like, now, that's my kind of study.

[294] Yeah, but it just makes logical sense.

[295] Yeah, it does, for sure.

[296] You understand the building blocks of human beings and, like, what's necessary to promote, you know, all the things that you need that only come from animal tissue, B12, collagen.

[297] There's so much stuff that you can get from meat that you're just not going to get from anywhere else.

[298] So whenever I see an athlete that starts going on a vegan diet, I look at it the same way as like a snake handler.

[299] Like, okay, let's see how this plays out.

[300] Yeah, what it plays out?

[301] You're going to get bit.

[302] It's going to take some time.

[303] It's like I have a friend and he was like, my girlfriend's going to let me do threesomes.

[304] The moment I hear things like that, I have the exact, the exact, the exact, the exact, same feeling as like someone coming up to be saying hey man I started making my own bombs like yeah this is not gonna work out I don't I don't got it went through something like what you're talking about you know and I remember when he broke it out for me about like some like deal he had arrived at in his marriage it looks good on paper like I can't fucking never seen an example once I can't tell you how I know but I could just tell you how I know but I could just tell that this is not a catastrophe.

[305] It never works.

[306] Yeah.

[307] I mean, if you just sketch it out right here, it might look all right.

[308] Yeah, it's not.

[309] She's going to kill you in your sleep, bro.

[310] This is not going to work.

[311] This is real.

[312] My God.

[313] Get out now.

[314] Yeah, but, you know, the vegan diet thing, it's just, it's so unfortunate that people have been, it's like, it's such a, I get how you could come to this sort of idea where if you just eat vegetables, then you're not as, responsible for killing.

[315] But one of the real problems is, first of all, there's a real problem of farming, you know, especially industrial monocrop agriculture.

[316] God damn, they kill a lot of things to get that crop out.

[317] They kill everything that's in the ground when they're using the combines.

[318] They use people to kill groundhogs.

[319] They're killing all the varmints and gophers and everything gets fucking killed, right?

[320] We all know that.

[321] Ground nesting birds, fawns get chewed up.

[322] There's a lot of things that happen.

[323] But then on top of that, there's emerging evidence that plants have intelligence.

[324] That not only do they have intelligence, but they communicate through the mycelium and the ground.

[325] And that they share resources.

[326] Like, they allocate resources towards plants that need it more.

[327] There's evidence that they communicate with each other.

[328] Like, for instance, like the acacia tree, which, there's trees in Africa where, when giraffe, If they're downwind, the other trees that are downwind will start producing a potent chemical that makes their leaves taste like shit so that they know that they're getting chewed on by, you know, oh my God, there's a giraffe in the abode, start tasting like shit.

[329] And so they release chemicals.

[330] I mean, how insane is that?

[331] Yeah.

[332] Not only is it that, but they have now shown that they can play recordings.

[333] of water of insects eating the leaves and if they play those recordings next to the plant the plant will start producing those toxic chemicals that make them taste bad so i've read that about willows i never checked to see how like valid it is but that that a willow willow will send root tendrils in the direction of the sound of running water that makes sense i know that's cool sorry kind of me to step over you can oh no no i was just saying so it's it's sound and also you said Before you said it was downwind.

[334] Yeah, downwind, too.

[335] It's scent and sound.

[336] It's a bunch of things that they don't understand because they don't have noses.

[337] They don't have ears.

[338] Like, how does the sound of caterpillars eating leaves change the chemical structure of these plants?

[339] Like, how are they knowing, okay, time to let loose the poison?

[340] How are they getting it because they're downwind?

[341] But it gets so bad that animals, some animals that try to eat them, they wind.

[342] up starving to death because they don't want to eat this stuff because it tastes that bad.

[343] I can see where you're going with this is that sometime down the road there's going to be some tough decisions for people who are looking for general well like not wanting to harm creatures.

[344] And when you have to face the fact that here's this like semi -sentient communicative plant that you're yanking out of the ground.

[345] It just can't move quick.

[346] And it does move.

[347] And if you watch high -speed images of plants growing, you know, and moving with the breeze, you're like, oh, it's just a different kind of movement.

[348] Like, it's clearly growing.

[349] Like, it grows forever.

[350] It's not even like another animal.

[351] It's kind of more fantastic because it'll grow for 100 fucking years and keep growing.

[352] Or if you go to, like, some of those crazy in Northern California, those trees that have been around for a thousand years, it's wild shit, man. yeah yeah i'll uh like you know i'll hunt all manner of stuff and i used to work as a tree surgeon and with fell trees but at our place in southeast alaska which is in the uh coastal rainforest and we're in an area of old growth where our stuff's at um i'm not like in no way condemning people to do i would not be able to put a chainsaw in one of those trees yeah like you know i mean like we like everyone finds their sort of of limits.

[353] And when I'm looking at some tree that's whatever, four or five hundred years old, I personally, you know, I could kill a bear without thinking about it.

[354] Not without thinking about it, but yeah, I can kill a bear and be real happy I did.

[355] Man, just I personally couldn't put a saw out of one of those trees.

[356] Yeah.

[357] So people, you find these lines.

[358] Well, there's also the renewable resource of bears.

[359] You know, if you're going to kill a bear and eat a bear, that bear's nine years old.

[360] Nine years is not that big a deal.

[361] Yeah, they ain't 400.

[362] Yeah, I mean There was a I was in Scotland Recently and they They had this tree Like this is the oldest tree That you know Is in Europe And I was like how old is this fucking tree And it's like a 5 ,000 year old tree I'm like how is that possible Yeah that's incredible See if you can find that Like the oldest tree in Scotland It was a crazy gnarled up looking fucked up tree I was like how old I might be wrong with the age But it was crazy old And I was like whoa Like how do you know How do you know how old this is When you go to Europe Scotland was amazing.

[363] I took this trip with my wife and we went to visit these sites where they have these stone circles that are older than Stonehenge and they're like right in front of this dude's house.

[364] Like this dude has a house and then there's a small street like a two lane street, 5 ,000 years old.

[365] Yeah, 5 ,000.

[366] Yeah.

[367] Google says it's 2 to 3 ,000 years old.

[368] Okay, so the sign says 3 ,000.

[369] Well, back when they made that sign, what kind of fucking carbon dating did they have, you know?

[370] Some dude said, man, that tree must be 5 ,000 years old.

[371] Put that on the sign.

[372] Look at the image of it.

[373] That's what it looked like.

[374] See the image of it to the right, Jamie?

[375] No, slightly to the left of that.

[376] Yeah, that's it.

[377] That's exactly what it looked like.

[378] That one's a thousand -year -old.

[379] North Downs in Surrey, so that's in England.

[380] Yeah, fuck that ugly tree.

[381] That tree looks dope.

[382] It looks dope.

[383] That's not the tree that's not the tree that's talking about.

[384] I think they look cool.

[385] That tree looks old.

[386] That tree looks like a gnarly old man. Yeah, like some old dudes.

[387] I tell you what it was like when we rode horses everywhere.

[388] Hey, so, Steve, I was thinking, like, so what's the difference between a person who you said you wouldn't like to cut that tree, or you wouldn't?

[389] Yeah, like I said, not, not, I don't say that to condemn, you know, I mean, I don't say that to cast judgment on, you know, a logger that does.

[390] I'm just saying, like, I personally.

[391] No, I understand that.

[392] But then there's some people who take that to, I'm just trying to, I don't know, reason with myself.

[393] Because around here, we've had people chain themselves to trees.

[394] Sure.

[395] You know what I mean?

[396] So would you do that?

[397] No. So that's what I'm saying.

[398] It's like, I mean.

[399] No, because the passion's not that.

[400] Right.

[401] There's a look that the passion's there, but it's not that deep.

[402] Right.

[403] Yeah, it's just, it's weird thinking about, I understand what you're saying.

[404] I totally get that.

[405] I would probably, I think I've never cut down a tree.

[406] I've never been a tree surgeon.

[407] But I would probably feel the same about maybe a four or 500 -year -old tree.

[408] I might be like, you know, man, Cam, you cut it down.

[409] When I was in Northern California.

[410] I don't want to have to deal with any repercussions.

[411] We were in the Redwood Forest, and there's a tree that you drive a car through.

[412] Yeah.

[413] They've cut a hole in the tree, and I was like, why did they do that?

[414] But it was like 1920 or something when they did it.

[415] Yeah, they didn't care about anything like that.

[416] They didn't even fuck.

[417] But when you're around those trees, they're so big.

[418] It's so crazy, how wide they are.

[419] And when they're gone, that's it.

[420] You just chop down something that took thousands of years to grow so you can make, what, a fucking table?

[421] Yeah.

[422] You know, there's a lot of trees that are like 20 years old.

[423] Go kill those.

[424] Yeah, it's a tough one, man. It's a tough one looking at those trees.

[425] But it does seem like, you know, some of those trees you look at it, it's like you're looking at it almost seems like some approximation of God, you know, and look at some of those old trees, man, just astounding.

[426] Yeah.

[427] Yeah.

[428] Yeah, we, that's, in Oregon, that was a big thing because we had the spotted owls in late 80s, basically, and spotted owls lived in old growth.

[429] So we had the, whatever, timber activists or whoever those people are.

[430] Yeah, and, or living in them.

[431] They'd like, well, we live here or we chain ourselves to them, but they were up there and so the loggers would get there to cut, you know, do their cut, and there's people living in the trees.

[432] Yeah, that one gal spent, her name was like, boy.

[433] Joel's probably had her on the show I would have around the show It was like butterfly or something right But I mean I guess my point is It's like you got people Whatever their passions are They will go to the ends You know like we defend hunting Till the end Right that's our passion That's what we love But yeah it's like all these different factions Of people that Man you'd have a hard time saying You're wrong and believing that Because that's just what they believe That's their passion So it's like finding that middle ground You know the one thing that I never really thought of until I started hunting was the spiritual aspect to hunting that's it's a part of it that it's almost indisputable when you experience it like when you first experience it when you first start eating an animal that you like the first time you ever took me hunting when we were in Montana and I remember when I was eating that mule deer and we're sitting over the fire and I was like this is so different than any meal I've ever had in my life.

[434] It's so different.

[435] I feel so connected to this animal.

[436] I know how difficult it was to do this.

[437] I know how insane their life is, that this is this wild creature that is 100 % going to die soon, no matter what.

[438] If it's next year or the year after or the year after that, it doesn't have much time left.

[439] And if you can move in while, you know, dip your toe into the wild and extract that thing out.

[440] To me, that was like, oh, this is.

[441] is the best way to eat meat ever.

[442] This is 20, 30 times better than just getting a steak from a store.

[443] I remember when we were sitting around the fire, and you're like, what do you think?

[444] I'm like, I'm doing this forever.

[445] Do you remember that?

[446] What year was that?

[447] I don't remember that specific conversation.

[448] That was 12 years ago.

[449] Oh, was it really?

[450] I was 10 years ago, yeah.

[451] 2012.

[452] Okay, and then you bow hunted it in 2014.

[453] Yes.

[454] Okay.

[455] So did you kill...

[456] I have two people in this room that introduced me to hunting, and that's our Montana mule deal right there.

[457] That's him.

[458] That's him.

[459] Yeah.

[460] Someone lost the nose bones.

[461] Oh, the ones out there?

[462] Well, he's missing this, too.

[463] You need to shake Jamie down.

[464] He might have a pocket full of those nose bones.

[465] I think they boil it out too long.

[466] I think is that what it is?

[467] Yeah.

[468] I always glue him back in.

[469] But anyways, sorry.

[470] But that guy is very special to me. That guy is very special to me. First kill.

[471] And I remember when we were eating him over the fire, I was resorting my schedule.

[472] I was like, okay, how many times a year can I hunt now?

[473] Okay.

[474] How long is it going to take to?

[475] After the first -year.

[476] First time.

[477] Right away.

[478] Eating it over the fire, like right away, I was like, oh, I'm doing this forever.

[479] This is what I do now.

[480] Like, right away.

[481] I was like, okay, now I got to really research like calibers and rifles and how to do this and how to do that.

[482] I got to up my cardio.

[483] I got to start hiking hills.

[484] I started thinking all these things, like immediately.

[485] Yeah.

[486] And I start planning out.

[487] Okay, every, I got to hunt every four months.

[488] Like, what can you hunt?

[489] I got to get pigs because then you can hunt them all year round.

[490] Immediately my brain starts spinning.

[491] Like, okay, this is what I do now.

[492] I was like, okay, I found it.

[493] I've taken quite a number of people on their first hunting trips.

[494] I've never had, I mean, probably dozens.

[495] Maybe dozens.

[496] Either way, I've never had any of them regret it.

[497] Like, no one's ever said I wish I hadn't done that.

[498] But I would say the majority, definitely a good, strong majority did not pursue it.

[499] Didn't regret it, glad they did it, but didn't make it part of life.

[500] Well, it's difficult.

[501] It's difficult, you know.

[502] And that's the thing I think that is the impediment for a lot of people.

[503] It's like time consuming.

[504] If you don't have something like you or someone like you to teach them, like I have friends.

[505] They're like, hey, I want you to take me hunting.

[506] I'm like, oh, Christ.

[507] I don't have the time.

[508] I want to go bow hunting.

[509] I'm like, do you know what you're saying?

[510] Do you know what you're saying?

[511] Yeah.

[512] Like, I just want you to come with me one day and watch what I do.

[513] Fucking every day where I'm out of my kid right now.

[514] I'm going through that with my kid where my older kids, very interested in bow hunting.

[515] but it's just I'm like man you have to appreciate the level of discipline dude that you got to shoot right like I'm perpetually rusty like you can't be like me and and I actually pulled the plug on them this year where I said if you shoot every day like he'd been shooting throughout the summer I said if you shoot every day prior to this week we're going to go bo -hunt I said I want you shoot every day prior to the week and he didn't do it and I said we're not going and I'll see if next year that impacts them but it's like the discipline it's unfortunate but I think you know there's no way to teach someone that there's no way to really like get it into their head how hard it is unless they're in the field and they're drawing on an animal and then they realize like unless there's some ways to mitigate that like you've had Joel Turner on which I you have you've had him on right no you never had Joel Turner on the shot IQ guy no I'd like to you but never did oh I gotta connect you do you have his number do you no but I'm familiar with that He's been recommended by many people, and guys I work with are familiar, but I haven't had him on.

[516] He's absolutely got...

[517] And you've recommended him today.

[518] Yes.

[519] He's got a...

[520] There's a thing that happens when you're in a high -pressure situation that I recognize from martial arts and from a lot of other things, where you do not have full control of your faculties.

[521] And your body is operating on anxiety and adrenaline.

[522] And when it's completely unique, like a bow -hunting thing, where you have...

[523] hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of preparation and thinking about it for seconds of action and it boils down to this one movement where you're like yikes if you don't have a strategy for managing your mental state while that's happening the odds of you flinching or moving or doing something stupid are really really really high and joel turner went through that for like fucking 15 years he like couldn't kill an out he was always choking yeah And then when he became a SWAT instructor, when he was, you know, he's on a SWAT team.

[524] So he's literally, like, he was telling me this one story where he had to shoot this guy that was holding a young girl hostage.

[525] And like, I think it was with a weapon.

[526] I forget, a knife or something.

[527] And so he has a headshot while this guy is holding onto a girl.

[528] And he had to figure out, like, what are the, what is the mental process that allows people to flinch and panic?

[529] during these moments and he realized it's a difference between open loop systems and closed loop systems and the open loop system is something like swinging a baseball bat like once you start swinging you're just swinging you're just wha you know you're swinging and unfortunately with a lot of people that is the initial reaction they just go yeah i get it like the final thought you have is that you're going to swing the bat yeah i don't know if a professional I don't know if a friend of mine's a, you know, a real home run hitter.

[530] I don't know if he would agree, but in my mind, yeah, it's like you've decided to swing and everything else is just nothing.

[531] Well, you're not going to stop it in the middle of the swing.

[532] Yeah, and you're not thinking about, oh, I'm going to go a little higher, a little lower, right?

[533] It's like punching.

[534] Yeah.

[535] Punching when you're fighting, punching comes, it's an automatic movement.

[536] Like you slide back and you don't even realize what's happening.

[537] You're already punching.

[538] And you're not going to stop that punch once you've launched your shoulder forward.

[539] And when you are using his system, he has you talking to yourself through every step of it.

[540] So you're always conscious.

[541] So it's always a closed loop system.

[542] You're in complete control.

[543] At any step, you could stop.

[544] And he's like, sometimes the best shot is a shot you don't take.

[545] When you realize you're shaking, you're holding too long, let down.

[546] That's the best decision you could ever make.

[547] If you get your mind to like, just shoot now, just go now.

[548] Now, we've all seen people.

[549] There's so many videos online.

[550] Dude, I've been there my, yeah.

[551] Yeah, everybody has.

[552] But there's a way to mitigate that with this.

[553] So it's not just the practice.

[554] The practice is great.

[555] You have to practice.

[556] I practice constantly.

[557] But you also should have a pre -shot routine.

[558] And I actually used Cam's pre -shot routine when I was in Utah.

[559] Because I remember Cam had this thing where he's saying, keep the pin on them, keep the pin on them.

[560] And you say that while you're shooting.

[561] Keep the pin on them.

[562] pin on it.

[563] I just know if I keep the pin there, it's got, arrow's going to hit good.

[564] Yeah.

[565] What happens is people drop their bow arm a lot.

[566] Yeah.

[567] I mean, that's what happens a lot is that drop that bow and they hit too low.

[568] Right.

[569] So if you keep that pin there, bow's going to do it as well.

[570] Oh, you're saying, be conscious, you're telling yourself, be conscious of keeping the pin on it through the shot.

[571] Yeah.

[572] Yeah.

[573] Yeah.

[574] Not moving because the moving thing is like, hope I hit it.

[575] Oh, oh, I'll hit it.

[576] Ah, that things go left, right, fucking three, four feet.

[577] You're like, how?

[578] You know where people realize that they have a problem?

[579] is after they make a shitty shot.

[580] And they're just like, why didn't I practice more?

[581] Why didn't I listen to Joel or Joe or whoever?

[582] Yeah.

[583] Because then it's real.

[584] Because we have a tendency of making things work out in our head the way we want them to.

[585] And then when it doesn't work out like that because we haven't put in the time or we don't have a process down and maybe you hit the animal bad, maybe you miss, maybe, you know, just shit the bed.

[586] And then you're just like, God, what is my, what am I?

[587] doing yeah but up until then you're like you're the baddest person ever you know I mean yeah of course I'm gonna make a great shot that's an interesting thing between in talking to people to blow a shot with a rifle and talking to people to blow a shot with a bow people will blow a shot with a rifle and they'll assure you they did everything right guns on no one blows a shot with the bow and comes the way of saying I don't know what happened I did everything right because you fall into like you fall in like you're saying you fall into this like despair and guilt and you're trying to review in your head I've like I've accidentally landed on a thing it's not fail safe but somehow when you're saying like keep the pin on them I've landed on this thing like like remember your elbow remember your elbow and if I remember to like because when I'm shooting just practicing I'm always there's always this thing of it's like sort of consciously being aware of have my elbow raised and that makes everything fall on the line and so if I know I'm gonna get a shot and I could think like if you'll do the part the elbow if you do the part And then that elbow goes up and then everything else sort of like takes care of itself, you know.

[588] And then if I take a shot, I might review in my mind like, I never did that thing.

[589] I never did the elbow deal, you know, which drives all the other actions.

[590] It's imperfect, but it's similar to what you're talking about.

[591] You know, there's something about staying in a conscious state and being able to maintain your composure during that high pressure situation, maintaining a conscious state where you're talking yourself through it and not just being a reptile people black out kind of they black out they really do they don't know what happened I don't know what happened yeah I think you use it up maybe I felt that if anything just a gradual dissipation with age and experience perhaps experience for sure I'd be curious if some if some dude started like if some dude at 60 years old you know some dude at 60 years old started bow hunting are they going to wig out like a 20 year old on their first shot depends on who they are there's something that's like their brain's already chilled out i think there's a part of your brain that like you know there's a there's a part of your brain that Andrew huberman talks about i forget what the exact uh that grows yeah yeah that when you force yourself to do things you don't want to do when you force yourself to get up in the morning and run in the cold and getting the cold plunge and and all these different.

[592] It literally grows larger.

[593] This part of your brain that is able to do things that are uncomfortable that you don't want to do actually grows larger.

[594] And it seems to be that that's a muscle just like every other muscle, not a muscle, but a thing that is more robust with use.

[595] And if you're a 60 -year -old guy that's just been working in an office and listening to the boss and driving home and You know, there's no stress, no, no, like, not stress, but no high pressure, decision -making in -the -moment choices that you have come accustomed to managing and dealing with and negotiating.

[596] If you're a person, if you're a person has, like, fucking gone to war, you know, maybe you've had, like, some crazy high -pressure job in your 60.

[597] You've probably got fucking ice water running through your friends.

[598] By the time you're 60 years old, you're like, you've seen it all.

[599] So it depends on the human.

[600] but for most people that like you know like there's got like Derek Wolf you met Derek Wolf you have a money podcast I mean you're talking about a guy that like is fucking played professional football at the highest level and even he says it's the most exciting shit that he's ever done like I've told Cam like so many times dude I've done a lot of shit I've fought I do stand -up comedy I do so many live things that are like high pressure nothing is like elk hunting there's nothing like that moment When you're drawing and that thing is like in the field and it drops his head down at 50 yards and start eating and you draw back and you're like, is this happening?

[601] Is this really going on right now?

[602] It's so pressure filled.

[603] It's such a novel and unique moment that unless you have a bunch of those moments, like I'm at the point now, you know, 10 years into bow hunting where when I draw on an animal, I can keep my shit together.

[604] And now, to me, it's just like making sure I'm steady and the shot's good.

[605] There's nothing weird going on.

[606] There's no weird wind.

[607] And I just go through my process and I'm very confident now.

[608] But it's numbers.

[609] It's numbers.

[610] I always tell people like, the more things that you can shoot the better.

[611] And you could shoot pigs.

[612] You shoot things that people have to kill.

[613] You know, if you can go to Lanai where you can get like multiple shot opportunities on Axis deer, that kind of situation, that's, for me, the, difference between like how I feel in September during elk season and like some years where I feel great and super confident it's always that I went on a couple other hunts yeah it's always like so you get that experience it's I used to feel fighting too like if I got like a couple times I got injured and I couldn't fight for like six months and then I'd fight it almost like it was like brand new again like when I'd be in there like whoa this is crazy the first time you see people fight they're in a panic it's like you can't believe it's actually happening.

[614] You're like, are you ready?

[615] And you're like, yes.

[616] You know, like, and they get out there, and if you're an experienced person, it's one of the reasons why, like, champions have such a massive advantage.

[617] They have such a massive psychological advantage, because they're the champion.

[618] And they'd be, like, you'd see guys when they would fight Mike Tyson.

[619] They had already lost.

[620] By the time they got in there, they're looking at him like, oh, my God, what is happening?

[621] Is this real?

[622] Like, their whole world was, like, that big.

[623] And they were just in a full, like, panic.

[624] And just couldn't fight you know that's that's kind of similar to how people feel bow hunting elk for the first time i mean that bull's coming in yeah they they lost yeah when that bulls coming in and it's coming to 20 yards it's just like there's there's a chance but i remember the first time we had your first bow hunt we're in color the two bulls were coming in this little tight creek we were in this little draw coming in at the same time and they were just bugling and it was insane not even big bowls but just coming in and closing down on us and you remember that moment yeah just like it was unbelievable even though all the shit that you've done this high level crazy stuff that there was nothing that compared to that the screaming when you're there and they're like 30 yards doing that like the sound is so nuts like if you're not a person that's ever been around elk calling when they do it when they bugle it sounds like lord of the rings man yeah It's such a crazy sound.

[625] It's so crazy.

[626] It can be intimidating if you're not ready for it.

[627] There's a thing Derek Wolf told me when you're talking about the stress and competitive stress, he told me a thing that had never occurred to me before.

[628] He told me getting in a ring to fight Mike Tyson or whatever is in his thing.

[629] There's a thing where you can get, you're starstruck.

[630] Yeah.

[631] Like picture you're an incoming player, okay, and you're real young.

[632] And all of a sudden you're like, well, I'm supposed to go.

[633] tackle Tom Brady who I've been watching right I've been watching my my whole like coming up through my whole like coming up to high school yeah coming to college and all of a sudden like wow that's him yeah there's the goat right you got to sort of put that on your head right you're like hey type let me get his interview then let me get his autograph then I'll come back and then I'll tackle yeah like yeah I mean the goat you've heard how you know he's the best to ever do it and then all of a sudden, it's almost like, you know, I'm a big fan, I'd like to meet you.

[634] Sorry for having to do this.

[635] But isn't that also the case with bow hunters where, like, you've been hunting your whole life hoping to see a 200 -inch buck?

[636] And then one day, you're in the mountains and this mule deer steps out.

[637] You're like, this is it.

[638] You're imagining, taking the photo, smiling on Instagram, you're imagining.

[639] You see this wide mule deer bucked.

[640] Like, this is crazy.

[641] This is a real one.

[642] I can make this happen.

[643] And you're like, er, everything is just full panic.

[644] Clay Newcomb just did a bear grease episode about a guy, a poacher, and he interviews the guy at length.

[645] And this guy played softball on a army base.

[646] They had like an athletic complex.

[647] And a couple of times he sees this giant buck.

[648] And the people were aware of this giant buck.

[649] And he was trying to figure out if it was possible to kill it, as he calls it, kill it right or kill it legal.

[650] And one day he just having it.

[651] have his bow in his car and sees it not anywhere he's supposed to hunt and the way he describes that he describes it like he was out of his body and he shoots it and the minute it falls over he thinks you'll never get away with this god but he not only like not only lost i can't i think he's in Missouri yeah Missouri so was he in the wrong unit or is he on a military he was on a military base where you're not even you can't hunt oh wow and not only like like losing not only losing your mind as you're drawn back he lost his mind in the whole thing getting his bow out of his thing and kills the buck and then he the minute he kills it it occurs to what he's done so what did he do it's a whole episode it's two episodes about just it's horrible what I mean I I you got to walk a real fine line I mean he did like as he admits you know I mean he did he a criminal act, and it's not like sympathetic of the criminal act, but it winds up being a story of the unraveling of someone's life about just a mistake, but being that sort of lust for that animal.

[652] Right.

[653] I guess we should be thankful that Derek Wolf never saw Tom Brady out of pizza then.

[654] You know what I mean?

[655] Could just freaking light him up, sack him.

[656] Yeah, right.

[657] I got him.

[658] I got him.

[659] Imagine that.

[660] He's in line in front of you a Burger King.

[661] He just fucking go for it.

[662] I lost my mind.

[663] It was Tom Brady.

[664] I just fucking, I don't know.

[665] I've just been programmed to tackle him.

[666] Yeah.

[667] No, but that, I think, I was thinking back too on, you said when you're not ready for it.

[668] My first two years, my first year bow hunting, my first year rifle hunting.

[669] I was 15 when I was rifle hunting.

[670] We did this drive.

[671] We used to do drives, right?

[672] Oh, hell, yeah.

[673] Not really hitting pans, but not far from it.

[674] So you send the guys and then put the whoever the shooters on the.

[675] stand.

[676] Oh, could I ask you real quick?

[677] Did you call them?

[678] What were the names you use?

[679] We debate this all the time.

[680] Who was, okay, what were the terms you used?

[681] Pushers, sitters.

[682] Yeah, that was it.

[683] Okay, use pushers and sitters.

[684] It's very regional.

[685] Or on the stand.

[686] Oh, I understand.

[687] Yeah, you're on the stand and then we're pushing to you.

[688] Okay, yeah.

[689] But so I was there, had this, let's see, 300 Savage, just old gun, but 15 years old, doing the push.

[690] Okay, go here.

[691] I didn't even know if I was in the right spot.

[692] I'm just like, God, I'm by myself.

[693] Just don't know anything.

[694] And then all of a sudden I look up and here's this buck, boom, giant mule deer.

[695] I don't even know how big it was, but it looked.

[696] And I was just like, shot, no clue.

[697] I don't know.

[698] I never, probably never saw it in the scope.

[699] It was like, probably, it seemed like from me to you.

[700] And I was just like, had no idea what happened.

[701] Was I prepared to kill that buck?

[702] Hell no. So I killed a spot.

[703] like buck like the next day right and that's how it works you're not ready for a giant right then same thing with bow hunting first day bow hunting this giant bull comes out seven by six roosevelt first day i'm like sit on kneeling in this logging road felt like my arms were asleep they're tingling i'm like i don't know if i could draw this bow back he's broadside head to the right but to the left and i shoot out it's like right at 40 yards and i miss behind his butt So I'm off like six feet at 40 yards and then end up killing a spike bowl.

[704] So it's just, you're just not ready for those, the giant, you know.

[705] But that's where I think Joel Turner comes into play.

[706] Because I don't know if he could have helped me. I don't know if he could have helped me. At that time.

[707] He'd have had to be like, give me that bow.

[708] Yeah.

[709] It probably wouldn't, you probably weren't totally ready for that at that moment.

[710] But if you have a certain level of proficiency and a certain amount of experience, in mitigating high pressure situations that I think you could get through it.

[711] Right, because I've been teaching a lot of people to shoot a bow for the first time on the lift run shoot show that I do.

[712] Joel Turner isn't going to tell them anything.

[713] I mean, it's like there's so many basics you have to get before that.

[714] Oh, yeah.

[715] As you said, once you get that routine down and you're kind of more seasoned, then I think that closed loop, open loop, then that would make more sense.

[716] It was so attractive to me. When I first started shooting a bow, I was like, God, there are so many, you get lost in this.

[717] Like, there's so much going on just in your yard when you're just shooting at a target.

[718] There's so much mental and physical and there's so many things that have to align.

[719] Like, I have a checklist that I have on my phone that before I go hunting, like when I'm on the plane flying to where I'm going, I look at my notes on my phone and I go over my checklist and I bounce it around in my head.

[720] process stuff.

[721] Yeah, I have a shot process.

[722] Not like boots, socks.

[723] No, no, no, no. I get all that.

[724] That I'm terrible with, too.

[725] I just stuff everything in there.

[726] I'm like, I think I got it all in there.

[727] I really need to organize it.

[728] Like, if I was going to go on like one of those...

[729] And you take away more than you need.

[730] A hundred percent.

[731] If I was going to go on one of those backpacking mountain hunts where you're carrying your whole camp on your back, you're walking in for fucking 20 miles, I'd be the guy that is like the 80 -pound pack because they threw in extra batteries and extra broadheads in case that happens.

[732] hiding stuff in the bushes on your way up.

[733] Two knives, just to get it.

[734] You know, meanwhile, like Adam Green Tree has been doing it forever.

[735] That motherfucker saws his toothbrushes in half to cut weight.

[736] He's got it down to a science.

[737] You would do that one time.

[738] One time.

[739] Yeah, exactly.

[740] That's how you learn that.

[741] Everybody's learned that.

[742] So my process for packing is just fucking shove it all in there and mostly likely I always have two range finders and two binos in case I brought a drop something.

[743] And, you know, remember that time we were hunting in Canada and I broke my rest.

[744] My rest snapped, but I had a whisperer biscuit.

[745] I was ready.

[746] I was like, Ha!

[747] Oh, that's good.

[748] He was being obsessive out there with his rest, just like wrenching on it for hours and changing and doing all this and end up stripping something out because he's like got too crazy on the rest.

[749] Well, it was fucking up on me. Yeah.

[750] It was fucking up.

[751] The rest wasn't dropping all the way and so like my arrow was catching it.

[752] Like the fletchings were catching and I'm like, what the fuck is going on?

[753] And then I was like, oh, look at my rest.

[754] It's like slightly up above the riser Like god damn it I'm fucking getting there And they doing Oh no Oh no But whisker biscuits man I know they take a couple of seconds away From your fee percent But boy that's fucking easy to tune Yeah it's a lot less A lot less little stuff to go wrong For sure I don't have some fucking high level hunters Still use whisker biscuits Just because they don't want to fuck around with anything It's like for that hunt it's perfect You're going to be shooting at 10 or 20 yards You know, or a white -tail hunter, they're shooting at 20 yards.

[755] So if you're going to be shooting long distance, a fletch going through with all that contact through the whisker, basically, that's going to impact long distance.

[756] Well, apparently really impacts it when you have helical.

[757] Yeah.

[758] Right.

[759] So if you have straight, so helical for people that are listening, there's an angle that the fletchings are placed in that accentuates the spinning of the arrow, which makes it more accurate.

[760] you know that's what you want right so some people don't use that they just have straight up and down fledgings which is still good you know you can still shoot very accurately with straight up and down fledgings but most like really good archers prefer a heacle like you have a helical yeah give a little direction to that energy so the so the arrow won't plane but that whisker biscuit accelerates that spin makes it immediate though well it fucks up the fletchings because it's a it's twisting as it's going through all that those those hairs whereas if you have a strong straight, you know, straight fletching is just going to pass through.

[761] It only takes a few feet.

[762] Tim Burnett still hunts with a whisker biscuit.

[763] I was watching one of his YouTube videos.

[764] I mean, that guy's fucking killed everything.

[765] He's been around forever.

[766] You know, solar hunter, you know, Remy's buddy.

[767] And, you know, he's a really good hunter.

[768] And he uses a whisker biscuit.

[769] And I was like, this is crazy.

[770] I mean, maybe he's only using it on this one video that I saw.

[771] But I was like, there's a lot of people that just go, I want to cut, just like a lot of people don't fuck with mechanicals.

[772] They're like, it's too many things you can go wrong.

[773] I'm not going to fuck around with it.

[774] The last thing I did with mine is I put it on my fish bow, but it won't flow to fiberglass arrow, I realized.

[775] Too heavy.

[776] You know what I'm saying?

[777] I was like, man, this is going to be genius for fish hunting.

[778] Right.

[779] But it's just the arrow just goes, do.

[780] Right through it.

[781] Right.

[782] That looks like a lot of fun, like bow hunting for fish.

[783] Oh, I love it, man. Well, yeah.

[784] The problem is you just get limited to a fish that aren't.

[785] You get limited in the U .S. You get limited to a lot of fish species.

[786] that are not as desirable.

[787] Right.

[788] Like gar and carp and stuff like that.

[789] Down in South America, you're hunting like the best of the best fish.

[790] Yeah.

[791] You know, so it's nice.

[792] Yeah.

[793] Oh.

[794] But I mean, you're hunting like the most coveted food fish, which is fun.

[795] Because, I mean, how many carp do you want?

[796] We used to do it with your kids, man. We'd shoot all kind of carp, but I just, you know.

[797] And it while that carp are, like, prized in Europe?

[798] Yeah, I know.

[799] It doesn't make any sense.

[800] They, like, they go out of their way.

[801] I shouldn't say it doesn't make any sense that they didn't.

[802] but I don't know where we went.

[803] I don't know how we went so wrong.

[804] Yeah, it's weird, right?

[805] They put them all over thinking everybody's going to eat them all the time.

[806] It just, like, did not take off.

[807] Well, they ruin lakes.

[808] Where I live on Lake Austin, there's a buddy of mine who's one of my neighbors, who's a fisherman.

[809] And he said, man, you should have been here before they brought carp.

[810] He goes, there's all sorts of vegetation in here, and the bass were everywhere.

[811] But now he goes, if you can get a camera and look at the bottom of this lake, it looks like at the bottom of a swimming pool.

[812] There's fucking nothing, man. Oh, they're terrible.

[813] but the fact that it was intentional there's so many non -native there's so many invasive species that were unintentional but the fact that for the most part the common carp was they were doing everybody a favor I think they thought they were doing a favor for rich people on Lake Austin because I think they wanted people to have less vegetation so they could take their boats out that's what I think and that's what he thinks too I mean I got this from him he was like I think they just wanted to clean up the vegetation because it was unsightly and they fucked this place up because he was on a boat and when I met him he was casting under my dock you know and I went out there and I was like what's going on man you weren't yelling at him no I've I've seen that on your show no I like it I always when I see those guys and they're always like a little nervous so I was like how you doing man oh man this guy's gonna yell at me I was telling this guy like the other day that there's like this four pound bass that lives underneath my dock I go hey man there's a pretty good bass that lives underneath stock and he's like really I go yeah could fish it man I start talking But this is my friend Alan shout out to Alan who's my neighbor he catches all he catches his big bass He goes I don't even try for he's he uses a big ass fucking Rapala He has like one of those jointed Rapalas and it's like fucking six inches long He's like I don't even fuck around he goes I just want big bass because there's like 15 16 pound bass in that lake Whoa and so he catches some big ones he sends me some whoppers Defenders the eight year effort to bring vegetation back to Lake Austin yeah that's it Yeah, they fucked it up.

[814] They fucked it up.

[815] There's still good bass there.

[816] Let me show you like what Alan catches.

[817] He's catching some big ass fucking bass in my...

[818] We used to, me and Roy used to be addicted to carp hunting because we'd go, they'd be spawning in the spring after we poured concrete.

[819] He had a construction company.

[820] We'd pour concrete.

[821] Then we'd go and go try to get carp for bear bait.

[822] So before they outlawed at 94 in Oregon, we'd get carp.

[823] Catch these giant carp, have a wheelbarrow, get them all back, put them in a, like a 55 -gallon drum, put the lid on it, and then we'd make stink.

[824] So we'd call, we needed some stink to get the bear bait going.

[825] Because if you got that rotten carp in a gunnysack, you put it way up a tree where they couldn't get it, that stink smell would go for five miles down the draw, and then all the bear would come in, right?

[826] So I just remember it's one time we had it in that bunch of carp and 55 -gallon drum.

[827] After a while, that kind of builds pressure.

[828] We didn't, we weren't really thinking about this.

[829] So we go to take that lid off and it freaking explodes.

[830] And this shit smells, I mean, maggots, carp's rotten carp exploded all over us.

[831] Have you ever seen those videos when whales explode on beaches?

[832] Well, I see them when they blow them up.

[833] This is when Alan just caught this in front of my house the other day.

[834] God dang, that's giant.

[835] Yeah, you catch some big eyes.

[836] bass bass.

[837] That's a real nice fish, man. Yeah, I think the...

[838] That'd be interested in bass fishing.

[839] Yeah, he gets a lot.

[840] Here's another one he just got.

[841] And whenever he catches one, he sends it to me. Yeah.

[842] We're homies now.

[843] Those are a big fit?

[844] But yeah, the weird thing is the dock thing.

[845] Like, I encourage it.

[846] I'm happy when I see people.

[847] Look, I love all manner of outdoor activities.

[848] I would never want someone to not fish near my dock.

[849] That's, like, so stupid.

[850] Yeah, I think it's a repulsive behavior.

[851] It's repulsive.

[852] Yeah, it's not your...

[853] It's a dock.

[854] Like, let people fish.

[855] You should talk to them.

[856] They're your friends.

[857] Wouldn't you do it?

[858] If you didn't have a dock and there was a dock and you knew the fish hang out under the dock, wouldn't you fish there?

[859] Yeah.

[860] So what the fuck is wrong with you?

[861] Yeah.

[862] Or it's like, well, you're going to have to move your dock because there's a fish under there.

[863] They're not going to fish for.

[864] But this is the situation where that's where they go.

[865] They go where it's shade.

[866] They go where they can ambush.

[867] And they all go under docks and, you know, hanging trees and anything they can get.

[868] because they fucked it up with carp.

[869] Yeah.

[870] I was living in Seattle for a while, and there's, we would fish small mouth and perch and stuff in this thing, Lake Washington, which is like right downtown.

[871] And there's this, I was in this neighborhood where they have these apartment buildings that are on pilings.

[872] So there's just full -on apartment buildings out over the water built on piers.

[873] And they would cast shadows and fish would collect there.

[874] And you'd be in a boat, man. And I mean, you're like, besides being out in some dude's front yard under their dock, you're fishing where you're right here almost looking into the window, you know, of someone eating breakfast, but your cast right there, which felt much more intimate and kind of creepy.

[875] Yeah.

[876] That's weird.

[877] That felt weird.

[878] Weirder than, you know, like I said, where you got a house, then a yard, than a dock.

[879] Like, that's not weird.

[880] But you could get where you could basically, like, awkwardly wave at some.

[881] someone in their bathroom, you know, while you're trying to fish.

[882] Yeah, just don't make eye contact.

[883] Sitting there taking a shit looking out the window.

[884] Yeah, the dock thing is a weird one, man. It's a weird one because I get it if you're not a fisherman and you're just some asshole that just doesn't want anybody near your house.

[885] What they're going to tell you, what they always tell you, is that some guy's going to take a leadhead jig and chip the paint.

[886] Chip the paint on the boat.

[887] Ding the dock.

[888] like that's their claim okay is it they're they're gonna whack your whack your stuff with a leadhead jake i feel like that's the same as if you're driving off road like and you're worried about pebbles we gotta get these fucking pebbles out of here you're driving off road yeah be like well don't put your stuff out over the public water yeah and what are you doing is a boat's not a car man like it's a boat it's supposed to get scratched up a little you don't want your boat I don't get it.

[889] You know what I'm saying?

[890] Like, if you've got, like, if you're on a ranch and you got those stripes on the down the side of your truck.

[891] Arizona pinstrikes.

[892] Yeah.

[893] That's kind of cool.

[894] You break it in.

[895] That's what you do when it's new.

[896] You got, you kind of want that.

[897] I kind of want that.

[898] I like a car that's been fucking used, you know?

[899] Yeah.

[900] Well, you have 20 cars.

[901] I do.

[902] But you didn't if I didn't.

[903] I'm pretty sure that's how I'd think, you know?

[904] I was thinking, I was thinking about your shot.

[905] You know why I think that that helps when you do the elbow?

[906] Because when you get that elbow right, you're pulling hard against that back wall.

[907] A lot of people creep on their shot.

[908] They'll get, they'll aim and everything's going good.

[909] They're pulling hard.

[910] And then as they're aiming, they're kind of relaxing.

[911] Oh.

[912] And then that cam is kind of rolling over.

[913] It's called creeping.

[914] That'll throw off your shot.

[915] So I think when you think of that elbow consciously, it makes you think of pulling hard against that wall, which that's where the bow performs best.

[916] Kyle Douglas pulls so hard that he's made Bowes break.

[917] Yeah.

[918] He's broken bows.

[919] Like pulling into the back wall.

[920] Uh -huh.

[921] I never thought about what you're saying, but it makes good sense.

[922] I think that's what helps you.

[923] Kyle Douglas, who's a fucking, is like one of the best of the best archers.

[924] Yeah, I changed my shot quite a bit when I started pulling really hard against the wall, really hard.

[925] You know, I pull fucking hard.

[926] I have that locked in.

[927] And it also changed when I stopped using a resistance.

[928] attention release because Dudley had me on what's called a silver bag which is I think one of the best methods for learning how to shoot because you have a safety you pull and then it's all tension base so when you have the safety on you could pull it hard and then when you release the safety you just pull a little more and it goes off and you could set it to like two three pounds whatever the amount of difference like say if you have a 70 pound bow you set it to 72 or whatever it is at, you know, when you're at, you know, a full draw, whatever the, you know, the drop -off is.

[929] So they have this resistance setting where you can, you know, you tweak it in your yard at like, you know, five yards or you're right in front of the target.

[930] And you get it to the point where it's at the back wall and then you just pull a little more and it snaps and breaks.

[931] And it makes for a perfect release.

[932] And I use that forever.

[933] But then when I really started pulling hard in the back wall, I was making it go off when I didn't want it to go off.

[934] And then when I switched releases, then I'm like, oh, that's definitely the most.

[935] Because you're much more steady when you're like, when I'm fucking locked out, I'm locked out.

[936] Like, I'm engaged in my back when I'm shooting at something.

[937] I am, everything is locked out.

[938] You know, and I find that to be way more stable.

[939] Is your front elbow locked out?

[940] My front elbow is locked out.

[941] Norm?

[942] Yeah.

[943] I mean, I used to bend it.

[944] I used to bend it a little.

[945] But then I was listening to this one guy and he said, if you were going to lean against something and want to be totally stable, wouldn't you lock your arm out?

[946] if you're leaning against a wall and you wanted to be completely rigid I was like oh that makes total sense no that's when you want strength you're it's bent like if you fall you're not falling like this you're falling right yeah but when you're like benching like when you have strength like that it's not locked out though you're stronger yeah they're trying to push your right when your buddy's car get stuck and you're trying to help push you're not locked out right but that's strength I'm not looking for strength I'm looking for stability yeah I have plenty of strength the strength is not the issue this the thing is for me is if i'm locked out that's less movement i'm completely left but i'm never i mean i'm not saying you know it's so there's a very i'm anything but i'm anything but a competitive archer but yeah i've never heard that in my life dudley doesn't agree with it most like i i just i know this well i shoot with the bent we teach everybody to have it a little bit bent but wayne always references this poster of these premier hoight hoit shooters and they all have the exact same form and they're all slightly bent.

[947] Oh, man. I find myself better when I'm locked out.

[948] Hey, listen, the thing is, if it works for you, who gives a fuck what anybody else says, because everybody says, I anchor wrong with my thumb behind my neck.

[949] So it's like, you know, whatever.

[950] That doesn't make any sense to me. If the arrows go and we're supposed to, the problem with the thumb behind the neck makes no sense to me. That seems to me to be way better.

[951] Because if you're anchored behind your neck, that's one more part of contact.

[952] and that's one more thing that's locked in.

[953] You're, like, completely rigid.

[954] That thumb only has that much give, and then it's behind your neck.

[955] I would do it if my neck wasn't so big.

[956] I keep needing to see what all this is.

[957] I can see, that doesn't seem crazy.

[958] No, no. Well, you see Cam do it?

[959] Cam, he gets his fucking thumb behind his head.

[960] And the reason why...

[961] And your thumb's looking for a little spot probably, too, right?

[962] Yeah, kind of.

[963] Yeah, now I just...

[964] You know where it's at.

[965] I don't even think about it.

[966] But how it used to be back in the day when we started everybody, like there was 30 - inch bows 29 inch bows and that's about it drawing so mine 27 and a half I just had like a bow that was way too long so I'm just like this and that's where it started oh you're just looking for something something I'm like God I'm trying to like just hold that behind the neck and they'll tell you not to do it I do not understand the logic don't do it we started because the bow the drawling thing people weren't really fitting bows to the shooter at that time right it was just like here's the bow here's what we got good yeah and that's what we do it's like your brother's bow or whatever.

[967] Somebody gave it to you.

[968] But it's funny, hearkening back to the old days, I just had Waddell on the show.

[969] So me, Wayne, and Waddell were shooting at the bow rack and we all have still trigger releases.

[970] You know, like nowadays the cool thing is the handheld, right?

[971] Right.

[972] But we're all old school still shooting, you know, like my wife's spot.

[973] Index finger.

[974] Yeah.

[975] Just a trigger release like that.

[976] And we were shooting pretty dang good.

[977] We had a shooting contest all in the X's.

[978] And I said, let's get a picture these releases because it's kind of a novelty now it's like just the old guy shoot those well there's still real good competitive archers like gillingham gillingham is one of the greatest of all time and he uses a trigger you know and he'll tell you in the way he says it he goes this thing about target panic he goes it's all just a mental weakness he's like when you're looking at a target mean obviously he's like one of the best of the best is a different animal but he's like when you're looking at a target like if you're practicing in your yard you can do it right you can hit it not flinch he's like it's a mental weakness that's all it is and he's like i prefer to command fire he goes i know when that pin is over that target and i can stay steady and let it go but he's got all kinds of wild wacky releases he has he he's always tinkering with shit so he has weird releases that are like six inches long and they're like leaning forward and pull like he gets it in his head modern stuff yeah modern stuff but he he adjusts his stuff he's got some weird ones man where you look at the like extended releases Like, he's got a lot of wacky, like, I wouldn't want to emulate it unless you were him.

[979] He's also a fucking giant six -foot -six dude, and, you know, it's like, he's got a crazy long.

[980] He's shot so much.

[981] He has a crease in his nose.

[982] Swear to God, from the string.

[983] That's good.

[984] I know guys that wore a groove in her teeth cut fish line, you know?

[985] Yeah, same thing.

[986] He's got that, just where that string sits, it's like a crease.

[987] Yeah.

[988] He shot a lot of arrows.

[989] That's great.

[990] I like a handheld, because I've been doing handhelds for so long, but when I'm here, I practice with your release.

[991] In my range, I have the wise guy.

[992] I think for hunting, I think it's an infant.

[993] I think for just controlled situations where you got all day, I think the handheld's a way to go.

[994] In an animal, you have to do command sometimes.

[995] Oh, sometimes you do.

[996] You have to punch a fuck out of that trigger.

[997] And I've killed a lot of animals doing it.

[998] Yeah, sometimes.

[999] If you can keep it together, there's moments where you like, you've got to shoot now.

[1000] You can't wait for the hinge to break.

[1001] There's certain things, I remember taking one of those home and messing with it, and I had the same, I had the same feeling I had when my nephew was trying to explain chess, like the game of chess to me, where I was like, that's pretty cool.

[1002] Realistically, I'm not going to, right, I'm not going to figure this out.

[1003] I admire it.

[1004] And I took that attention thing out in my yard.

[1005] And after a couple minutes, I'm like, are you honestly?

[1006] I'm going back to checkers.

[1007] Are you honestly going to figure this out?

[1008] And I was like, at my age, as much as I shoot, I'm just not going to.

[1009] And I went back and I just, so I shoot a trigger and I'll shoot that trigger until I'm dead.

[1010] You shoot the same trigger he does.

[1011] You shoot the wise guy.

[1012] Yeah.

[1013] That's a good one too because it's hot.

[1014] You're not yanking on it and pulling it and there's not a lot of weird movement.

[1015] Like when you touch that fucker, it's going off.

[1016] Yeah, there's certain.

[1017] Yeah, that there's a type of trap called a M .B. 750 that release it just seems like really nice little mechanical contraptions like I just like it's like you pull it's like it's so like yeah it's so clean yeah well I like I use a thumb trigger now I've been using a thumb trigger the last few years and I'll still use a hinge too you know I like a hinge too because there's something about a hinge where I hear that click and I know okay here we go yeah and that keeps me in the moment so I hear that like pull I hear that click I'm like, okay, everything, keep the shot process going, and then it goes off.

[1018] But the problem with that is, when it's windy, like one of the things that I found, especially like hunting it to hone, you know how windy it gets up there in those cany?

[1019] When you're trying to punch it as it drifts over?

[1020] You can't do it.

[1021] You have to have a trigger.

[1022] You have to be able to control fire occasionally.

[1023] But it helps you to have that process of recognizing that a surprise shot is important, at least an element of surprise where it's not like, now.

[1024] But it's like just go to the, I can, you know, with a thumb trigger, you can make it go off.

[1025] But you can also have it surprise.

[1026] So to me, that's the best of both worlds.

[1027] But that's a strange situation to be in when you're thinking the next time that pin blows over that target, I'm going to punch.

[1028] Yeah.

[1029] That's what happens to some people.

[1030] The mind fuck of target panic is crazy.

[1031] When you hear about people that can't get the pin on the target, they can hold like six inches under the target.

[1032] but once they rise up to the tiger like yeah everything starts getting shaky my body wants to put that pin my body wants to put that pin just to the left oh yeah well that's it's like i don't know why because i think i don't want to obstruct it yeah you want to see that yeah you like you know like it's like i got to when i bring it up like if i bring a crosshair on something the crosshair is going to go if i bring the pin up it's going to want to sit just left so i can still look and then i got to go like now i'm going to bring it over where it belongs you know what's the greatest thing of all time It has some problems, but it's the greatest thing of all time.

[1033] And I know they're going to eventually work this out, is that Garmin release.

[1034] Do you saw that one that I was using last year?

[1035] The site.

[1036] I stopped using it.

[1037] Yeah, Garmin site, excuse me. I stopped using it because I've had some problems ranging things.

[1038] But damn it, when it works, it's a clear window with just a LED dot.

[1039] No obstruction.

[1040] Just like a red dot with a pistol.

[1041] It's fucking magic.

[1042] It's magic.

[1043] Because there's no obstruction.

[1044] You just put that pin right where it is.

[1045] You can see through.

[1046] the pin because it's an LED it's amazing but it's just there's some problems with ranging like when I'm in my yard and I'm at 74 yards I know it's 74 yards and but I'll put that pin on I hit the button and then it'll say 67 85 73 I'm like what the fuck and I'm like I can't I can't have this mind fuck and so last year I stopped using it and I went oh I stopped using it because when we went to Utah they made it illegal so I didn't I hunted a full day with that release and luckily didn't shoot anything and then we went back and then Colton said you know I I think that's illegal here now yeah I'm like I don't think you didn't hunt you just practiced well I definitely didn't shoot anything no but I did go out with it I didn't even go to full draw but I didn't go out with it luckily I found out like imagine I was thinking imagine if you killed something I didn't photo with that because the year before I had shot my they changed it in April yeah and it's just you know some little change in the law that I didn't know about yeah it's a dumb change because it only makes it more effective and it's not easier it's just you're more ethical like yeah but there's a they have I mean it's a range find yeah but the states are gonna have like they have to try to like play the technology game because they just have to I agree to a certain extent but if you're going to allow range finders why do you allow range finders because you don't want people guessing yeah well there's a lot of guessing when you're gap pinning there's a lot of guessing when an animal you're you you range an animal of 50 yards and then he takes three or four steps, there's a lot of guessing, you know, and you're just going to hold high, are you going to do so?

[1047] With the garment, all you do is just press that button again, and you get a new pen, and it's perfect.

[1048] And the other thing about the garment that's really fantastic is if you can't range, like say if you're at 20 or you're at 40 yards and you range him, and then he walks out and you're pretty sure it's like 50 or 60, you can also press a button and you get a full range of pins so you get 20, 30, you get five LED lights you know instead of just one so there's an advantage of that too so if you're in a situation like we were at when we were rattling and the bucks just come running in and you know that's 20 yards or 30 yards like you just pull it up and you got your pins and you can do that or if you're at 60 like I shot the Neil guy you can hold it and then you get a pin that's what it looks like it's the shit But it just makes me nervous.

[1049] They're just trying to protect.

[1050] What they'll say is the primitive integrity of archery.

[1051] It's still pretty primitive.

[1052] You're still using a rangefinder.

[1053] It's just a range finder that's incorporated.

[1054] But they're also trying to imagine where it's going.

[1055] You'll see some level of herky jerkiness as they bring in regulations as they try to like get a sense of what's coming.

[1056] Because if you wait too long on certain technologies, you develop a user group and then you develop a level of resistance.

[1057] like think the second drones the second drones became a thing it was like immediately like 13 states nope yeah and in the end you kind of be like well why is it even on your mind in the end if you look where it's gone in the end they made the right call in open country they made the right call other things I think that you might look and try to like picture where it's headed and then maybe come back and correct.

[1058] Like there was a time, I remember the first time Montana came out with anything about two -way communications.

[1059] It was no two -way communications in the field, the first year.

[1060] And people are like, hold on, if I'm hunting with my 13 -year -old and my 80 -year -old dad, I can't give them a radio so that they have a problem, they can get a hold of me. And they're like, oh, yeah, I guess we didn't really mean that.

[1061] And in the next year, there's a modification.

[1062] And the next year is a modification as they try to gauge what's going on.

[1063] But I think that as technologies come in, there's a tendency to want to pump the brakes to ascertain what's going on.

[1064] Like, look how long some states waited on trail cams.

[1065] Yes.

[1066] And like, no one, when trail cams came out, no one imagined they would be cellular.

[1067] Right.

[1068] Or that you'd run, that you'd run 40.

[1069] Or that every waterhole would have 50 different dudes that have trail cams over that water.

[1070] Transmitting immediate information.

[1071] And so then you've got to.

[1072] Then you develop a big user group and you develop a big resistance and it just becomes a much different conversation.

[1073] So I think that in those cases where you see a sort of, you'll see a thing that doesn't entirely make too much sense.

[1074] I think that's part of the gamble and struggle of getting it right.

[1075] Another thing is, like I think I think it's winning out is they used to say, well, you can't have dogs hunting deer, of course.

[1076] And then people have been like, but I want a recovery dog.

[1077] like I don't the dog it doesn't do any good until I've already wounded the thing and once I've wounded it like why would you do anything to impede me getting it back right and they've kind of are settling in on a yeah you can't run deer with a dog in most states but they're coming around to saying but for recovery you can track a wounded deer with a dog and so you have there's a there's a you know there's a sort of compromise gets struck right or even a dead deer where you can't find it like heavy heavy timber Well, yeah, yeah, that's where it's put used to some states, you know, you used to be, you had to have it on a leash, but whatever.

[1078] But coming around being like, yeah, we meant you can't hunt deer with a dog.

[1079] Right.

[1080] We didn't mean you shouldn't be able to find a wounded or dead deer with a dog and then they make a gradual correction.

[1081] Well, that's also the first step they do to outlaw mountain line hunting, right?

[1082] No mountain line hunting with dogs.

[1083] And as soon as you do that, that's coming from a completely different.

[1084] Right.

[1085] That's coming from a completely different agenda.

[1086] Yes.

[1087] That's not trying to help hunters out.

[1088] that's trying to screw hunters.

[1089] I just don't know some of them I don't understand like lighted knocks that to me is the dumbest one it's like look lighted knocks allow you to more clearly see your impact and find the arrow so you're not littering so instead of like an arrow just alone in the woods you see that green light in the distance and you can find it you know that one doesn't make a ton of sense to me I I wonder if someone if in defining the legislation there's a little bit of a well what else is going to be on an arrow that's electronic.

[1090] I don't know.

[1091] Well, they are doing something like that now where there's like, there's talk of like Bluetooth technology.

[1092] They have that.

[1093] Yeah.

[1094] And so is it utilized now?

[1095] Yeah.

[1096] I mean, that's been out for years.

[1097] So you could find the arrow with an app?

[1098] And so what they would say that if somebody's just going to shoot an animal, excuse me, in the ass, just get an arrow stuck in it.

[1099] So you know where it is.

[1100] Then they'll find it.

[1101] You know, like, So is it going to perpetuate shitty, unethical shots?

[1102] Like if I can just get a piece of it, I'm good.

[1103] Right, then I'll just track it.

[1104] Yeah, like a whale.

[1105] You know, like you put a harpoon in a whale.

[1106] Yeah, Oregon was very late on allowing mechanical heads and lighted knocks.

[1107] I mean, it was just recently.

[1108] That's why I was like fixed blade forever because at home I couldn't even shoot expandable.

[1109] So Oregon, Idaho, they were pretty late coming to the game on the electronics because they call a lighted not electronic and that was and I still don't think Garmin sites are even legal in Oregon.

[1110] There's like 10 states or I think they're illegal at least yeah but Utah it's interesting that they did it this year yeah so yeah I know they changed but it might be to what Steve was alluding to it's like you try to course correct or they didn't want to get too far down the road before they try to come back because that user group was established yeah and we'd been doing it And now they have this, you know, they fight back on that.

[1111] Yeah, I just think all it does is allow you to make more ethical shots.

[1112] That's all, I think, that a range finding site does.

[1113] I mean, but they could say that, well, rifle hunting is more ethical than bow hunting.

[1114] So why do we need to bow hunt?

[1115] You know what I mean?

[1116] Right.

[1117] Well, you could also outlaw traditional bow hunting then because that's just all guesswork.

[1118] Yeah.

[1119] A large part of it, KAM already alluded to this, a large part of it is protecting a desire to protect archery seasons as you know you can kind of hold them out as low harvest limited efficacy high opportunity hunts right and a state will run a bow season and then they'll get then the general firearm and everybody gets down to the real serious business of killing and you can look at the archery harvest and the archery harvest winds up in comparison being I don't want to say negligible but in comparison, it's just, it's a blip in the harvest.

[1120] And so the desire to, you know, limit bringing in crossbows, certain technologies, be like, let's keep it simple, traditional, low efficacy, low harvest, and then allow for greater length of seasons and greater opportunity.

[1121] And if you get to, and I know it seems impossible, but if you can use technology to, get it up where your harvest rates really start to spike, you're going to have the same thing you run into in other areas where you start being like, hey, we've got to limit the opportunity pool.

[1122] Yeah.

[1123] Because these guys are too good, you know?

[1124] If you look at like a general raw number is just generally an archery Elkhunner has a 10 % chance of success.

[1125] Yeah.

[1126] It fluctuates, but like generally is a 10 % chance of success.

[1127] If that became 2030, you're going to pay.

[1128] for it somehow.

[1129] Right.

[1130] You know, you're going to pay for it somehow.

[1131] That's what, you know, a lot of detractors of archery will say, and I don't want to say, I mentioned earlier that maybe you just eliminate bow hunting if you want to be, you know, more efficient with the killing, just make a rifle.

[1132] I believe archery is just as deadly and just as ethical as rifle hunting.

[1133] I believe that that's the way to go.

[1134] Well, it certainly is for you.

[1135] I don't want to, but the success rate is lower to Steve's point and it's uh what what the guys back home have said the detractors of bow hunting is that the in this could just be old boy talk the bohunters are killing all the big bulls because I haven't heard that one they're rutting we can call them in right we're getting prime rut time right and so and it's you kind of get lulled into this trap especially with social media that you're thinking god is everybody killing a fucking giant bull but because that's what you see these long range shooters man. With the rifle you mean?

[1136] Yeah, these long -range rifle guys are taking 700, 800 -yard shots and they're really good at it.

[1137] It's crazy.

[1138] I don't even rifle hunt.

[1139] I mean, I haven't rifle hunted since 89.

[1140] You're missing out.

[1141] I took Kat Bradley, I know we talked about it before, to get her first buck in Oregon.

[1142] And so my buddy, Kevin, had this sig gun.

[1143] She was going to shoot and it's all good.

[1144] But this other guy, he reminded me of God, remember Mark Wahlberg in that movie where he was like this recluse lived up in the mounds.

[1145] Not boogie nights.

[1146] No, not boogie nights, no. He didn't have the...

[1147] Oh, yeah.

[1148] Damn it.

[1149] Go on.

[1150] Good movie.

[1151] So they wanted...

[1152] Somebody was going to assassinate the president.

[1153] They tried to get him because he was this ballistic expert.

[1154] They wanted to get him to tell him where they'd kill him from.

[1155] Anyway, yeah, right here.

[1156] Shoot her.

[1157] So, anyway, this guy down there where we took Kat reminded me of Mark or no not Mark this old guy he went to talk to that knew the history of right anyway he had these guns set up in this in this uh steel out there at 990 yards and i can i can shoot but i never shoot i haven't done it in years and i was just like i go how far is that far one he's like 990 and i'm like what do you got here that'll shoot and so he had this fucking sweet setup right got up set up got there first shot out of this gun had the wind gauge up there and I'm like okay the wind's going here I'm gonna hold on the left side of the steel boom 990 yards first shot smacked it and I'm like I fucking never shoot right I can hit this steel this big at 990 yards so to your point about this long range thing that's changing the game too oh yeah people want to talk about archery evolving and getting too far ahead of ourselves god dang these long range rifle guys My kids can shoot steel at distances that we didn't know you, that when I was a kid, you didn't know you could shoot.

[1158] 300 yards was a long way when I was.

[1159] The farthest shot you could take was across that cornfield.

[1160] Yeah.

[1161] 300 yards.

[1162] If the corn was down.

[1163] You were like a great shooter if you could hit anything at 300.

[1164] Yeah.

[1165] Oh, that was the, yeah.

[1166] Well, now everybody has shooting sticks and, you know, bipods and all sorts of different things that they used to set up to make them more stable.

[1167] What we had with.

[1168] Or prone.

[1169] Oh, yeah.

[1170] I mean, those, yeah, a bipod wasn't even a thing when I started a rifle hunting.

[1171] It was like, you had a sling.

[1172] You could put your arm in there a little bit.

[1173] That might help a little bit.

[1174] But you're offhand.

[1175] Offhand still.

[1176] Yeah.

[1177] So, I mean, when we kill Blacktail, it's like, if you get, you don't want to be past 100.

[1178] You imagine if they said with rifle hunting, no more prone shots?

[1179] Too easy?

[1180] No, I don't think they would, they would approach it a different way.

[1181] They wouldn't approach it that way.

[1182] would start with bypods, right?

[1183] If someone wanted to?

[1184] No, they would probably come.

[1185] See, I hesitate to say anything, so I want to give anyone, anyone ideas.

[1186] But if you were going to try to, like, I can't even think if you were going to try to regulate.

[1187] Well, I'll put it to you this way.

[1188] So we have muzzleloader seasons.

[1189] Okay?

[1190] A lot of states have muzzleloader seasons, and just very generally, a state's big game hunt would go archery, and then general firearm, and then you go into late season, muzzle loader and states will regulate muzzle loaders down to whether you have um what powder okay so loose powder pellet or pellets they'll regulate it down to open sites or no open site they'll regulate it down to whether you have a projectile that's true to bore or in case in a in a little casing called a sabb it um what other kind of stuff they throw way at you.

[1191] Meaning they really like nitpick your gear.

[1192] They're like, in some cases they're like rifles they'll regulate ignition systems.

[1193] In some cases they break it down to completely primitive muzzleloaders.

[1194] That's what I'm saying.

[1195] So there's nothing like So they do have the power and the, not the power, that's not the right word for it, they do have the ability to come in and really nitpick your gear.

[1196] Right?

[1197] Right down to weird stuff that you'd have to, that you could have people not even know what the hell you're talking about when you say true to bore projectile but you just that hasn't come into that hasn't come into general firearm and in fact I can't really think of anything out there besides you can't use anything that projects light like a laser laser yeah yeah so like projecting you see regulations around projecting light and I think there's some regulations about the scope can't have electronics in it, meaning lighted reticles, I think in some states you can't have lighted reticles.

[1198] But so far, you haven't seen that real, you haven't seen a real nitpicking of long -range rifle equipment.

[1199] I don't even know where you'd start, man. That they would regulate the magnification, that they would somehow regulate laser rangefinders.

[1200] Imagine if they regulate distance.

[1201] You can't shoot over blank distance?

[1202] Yeah.

[1203] I don't know.

[1204] It'd be a real puzzle if someone was tasked with figuring out how to rain in I would pay a lot of attention to that because I guarantee whatever they come up with the shit I use in that case with shooting the 990 it reminded me of running you do all the calculations on your phone I mean it's and then you set the scope to whatever this says right you know that the scope has not just magnification but also like you're changing the zero of it so but you're doing it based on the distance based on the load based on everything else goes into the phone yeah the wind was not the greatest because you could check the wind at the gun but when you're a thousand yards so that's why you needed that flag out there but to set the scope on to hold right on that's all done on the phone on an app or something so crazy let's go back to talk about bow hunters killing all the big stuff yeah I know it's those bastards yeah I honestly haven't heard I've heard everything I haven't heard that so that's yeah I get it the rut but again it's you know social media it makes it seem like for anybody that people are everyone's successful everyone's killing bowls and it's just not the case it's just not success rate is still 10 % on on bowls with a well not even just bulls elk with a bow well social media is just fucked up our perceptions of everything you know oh i was people's bodies of people's faces filters but in september god it does seem like everybody's getting a big meg of bull don't it well there's so many people with instagram accounts And everybody can't wait to post those photos.

[1205] Yeah.

[1206] It's, you know, when I asked what year that was, I've seen some graphs on hunting.

[1207] Oh, that, sorry.

[1208] Yeah, that buck.

[1209] And I see some graphs on hunting.

[1210] And, you know, we all get blamed for a lot of ills that probably we don't deserve in regard to hunting.

[1211] But I saw this graph talking about the hunters, you know, 50 years ago there's this many hunters.

[1212] and right around 2015 I mean it was plummeting the number of on the graph I saw the number of hunters was plumped just going straight down and then I was trying to like is that when you started coming in and we talk about hunting here and then now it's you know maybe there's a little bit of an up I know there's an uptick from where it was going but I was thinking it's a down tick now right now it's a down now after the COVID yeah now it's going back down but if you look at the graph that I saw before you started talking about hunting, who knows where the hell would be?

[1213] If you follow that line down to where it was going, there'd be no hunters from 2015 to 2024.

[1214] It's like it was, I don't know where this graph was, but it's, I don't know.

[1215] Well, it just makes sense.

[1216] I mean, think about the amount of millions of people that have been exposed to talking about hunting now.

[1217] But it's never exposed.

[1218] Yeah.

[1219] So it's not just, oh, yeah, hunting.

[1220] in a more healthy spot because we do need hunters to to champion our cause right but it's not just that oh that's good but imagine without that where we'd be I went saw a graph it was a not a graph it was a whatever the hell a diagram or something and it showed in Michigan average age of fur trappers people that held a fur harvester license the average age every year of someone holding a fur harvest the license actually went up one year.

[1221] No one knew.

[1222] It's like these same people and they're just, you know.

[1223] I mean, how many new people are getting into trapping that have never trapped?

[1224] Some.

[1225] God, it's got to be small.

[1226] Not like it is when fur prices shoot up.

[1227] Right.

[1228] Yeah.

[1229] Well, that's different, right?

[1230] Yeah.

[1231] But no, it's super small, man. No, super, super small.

[1232] And anytime, yeah, fur prices skyrocket, then it brings people in.

[1233] If fur prices are low it's just no one one of things you told me once that blew me away was at one point in time the richest man in the country was a beaver trapper yeah well yeah beaver man john jacobaster yeah that's crazy yeah that was the most precious commodity was beavers yeah i mean you talked about Colorado man that's a it's a crazy time right now because they are there is that measure out there i don't i think it's about a measure but it is uh yeah where they're trying to they're calling, they want to label lion hunting as trophy hunting.

[1234] And look, there's a, there's a guy there who's very passionate.

[1235] He's been doing a lot of good works.

[1236] Name's Dan Gates with Colorado for responsible wildlife management.

[1237] For people listen, don't know we're talking about.

[1238] We should say mountain line.

[1239] Mountain line, yeah, right.

[1240] Well, all good.

[1241] They say mountain line, bobcat, and then links.

[1242] They throw in links, which you can't hunt for anyways.

[1243] Yeah, it's not even to create this idea that, yeah.

[1244] It's not even legal.

[1245] But they love putting this trophy hunting moniker out there because it's really easy to hate trophy hunting.

[1246] Right.

[1247] Which isn't even legal.

[1248] You can't even, they make it, I read this article from Colorado Sun or something like that where it's like they want to eliminate people who kill mountain lions and just go cut their head off and just take the, it's like, who fucking does that?

[1249] Nobody does that.

[1250] But people who don't know think, oh my God, that's despicable.

[1251] Let's outlaw this.

[1252] We need to serve them some mountain lions.

[1253] Yeah, what the, what the aim here is that is the attempt to create a legal term, the attempt to create trophy hunting as a legal term, when you have a ballot measure, both sides argue about the language, like when voters go in, what are they going to read?

[1254] Obviously, you could write any ballot.

[1255] If you could just write the ballot initiative of how you wanted to, you'd win every time.

[1256] But people got to debate the wording.

[1257] That's what they did with the wolf thing.

[1258] Did you read the wolf thing?

[1259] I never actually read it.

[1260] I couldn't even tell what was four wolves and what it wasn't.

[1261] Oh, yeah.

[1262] It's like, what the, I don't even know which one I'm against.

[1263] It was like forcing, it was, should the state, does the state need to implement a reintroduction or discovery effort or something like that?

[1264] And this is, they're trying to, the debate comes around to, can you say trophy hunting?

[1265] Yeah.

[1266] in a ballot measure because if they can if you can set the precedent if you can use that what a great tool because people are going to say oh i don't agree with that you know i don't agree with that kind of hunting right um which uh would have widespread implications because um as demonstrated here with this deer here uh there's a lot of parts of it that i don't throw away and i keep sitting around yeah So is this a trophy or is it an emblem or what the hell is it?

[1267] Right.

[1268] But if I kept it, does that mean that I'm now captured under your definition?

[1269] Right, right, yeah.

[1270] What is trophy hunting?

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] Yeah, and then the bringing in the wolves thing is pretty wild.

[1273] Because there's no precedent.

[1274] They really don't understand, like...

[1275] Oh, there's precedent.

[1276] Well, obviously with Montana.

[1277] Yeah, with Yellowstone.

[1278] Idaho's Frank Church, Yellowstone.

[1279] But long term, I mean, we've only been since the 1990s.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] Like, there's a reason why.

[1282] they eradicated wolves.

[1283] I don't agree with it, but when you have ranchers and you have all these people that they're living is based entirely on the stock that they have, and whether or not they make money enough to keep their farm running or not is depending upon how many animals they bring to market, and then you have wolves, and then you just bring in wolves?

[1284] Yeah, well, so there's a, if I got the tinful of hat on, they want to eliminate hunting.

[1285] I mean, they want to eliminate hunting and ranching.

[1286] So they don't care about ranchers losing their animals.

[1287] They would love people just to be 100 % consumers relying on the government so they can control them.

[1288] They say, here's your food, here's what you're getting, you're getting it from us, you're not out there hunting it for yourself.

[1289] They hate hunters.

[1290] If I was thinking about, you know, the governor of Colorado, which is polis, his husband is anti -hunting.

[1291] Yeah, he's an animal rights activist.

[1292] That's where all this is coming from.

[1293] So, but if you look at the bigger picture, hunters, they cannot stand.

[1294] Hunters are usually capable, confident, you know, they have a skill set.

[1295] You can't control people like that.

[1296] They want people, government wants people they can control.

[1297] That'll be afraid when they're supposed to be afraid.

[1298] Wear this mask when we tell you.

[1299] Get this shot when we tell you.

[1300] Here's, you get your food from the store.

[1301] Here it is.

[1302] And hunters.

[1303] element of that.

[1304] Hunters are the opposite of that.

[1305] Yeah, I think there's certainly an element of that, but I think it really all boils down to people that love animals.

[1306] Yeah, I think I definitely detect that there's a complete disinterest in what hunters think about it, and they think that for someone to come in and argue, um, by doing this wildlife measure, you're impacting like, you would like this animal on the landscape for viewing pleasure.

[1307] Um, I like certain animals on the landscape for hunting, consumption, eating, whatever, and there's a conflict here where by doing this, you're going to lower, by increasing your likelihood of having viewer pleasure, you're having a potentially really negative impact on my use of natural resources.

[1308] I think that they look at you as though you don't have a, that you're ridiculous or evil or don't have a, point in saying that you want to control um you want to limit predation on a resource you rely on and they they don't accept that as a reality uh it's it i i haven't encountered a lot of like really really forceful wolf advocates that are serious hunters there is a there's a trend there you know the thing that that bothered me about the bother me most about the Colorado reintroduction is that while the ballot measure was going forward wolves showed up on their own I would have imagined even if I was on and I'm not anti wolf but when they showed up on their own I don't even know if it's legally possible I would have halted that whole thing because the social friction is so much less if they walk in on their own.

[1309] Diane Boyd, who is the Montana wolf specialist for many years, she even came to believe in hindsight that the Idaho, Montana reintroductions ultimately would have been unnecessary, ultimately were unnecessary and that you would have gradually achieved the same thing with wolves walking in on their own and had a very different societal perception of what was going on.

[1310] People would look at it as a natural, like a natural, dispersal and natural occurrence and not a government action right yeah but i think they wanted that pomp and circumstance like polis was there i think when they released a wolf oh yeah with a big stupid smile on his face yeah they they want everybody else all the biologists all had this like what are we doing and he was like yay yeah they wanted right they wanted that you know and if they knew the truth of how nature balances itself it doesn't really balance it over you know predators kill way too many prey animals because there is no tag limits.

[1311] They're not like, for example, they talk about trophy hunting lions or mountain lions.

[1312] To hunt in Colorado, you have to take, it's very regulated.

[1313] You take this test, so you learn how to identify a Tom and a female.

[1314] You learn how to age a little bit, you know, based on the coloring.

[1315] You learned, you know, what size of track.

[1316] So there's, you have to go through this before you hunt.

[1317] And the whole quota system.

[1318] The quota, like, yeah, so the quota where I was, in the unit I was hunting was 34 lions.

[1319] Every night after five, you call in to see where we're at.

[1320] When I got there, it was at 31.

[1321] I was there for six days.

[1322] It was up to, it was 34 was a limit.

[1323] It was up to 33.

[1324] So one more lion could get killed.

[1325] And then it's done.

[1326] So it's not like.

[1327] What happens if like you kill at the same?

[1328] You're in the woods, no signal.

[1329] And someone else kills too until it hits 36.

[1330] It could.

[1331] That's why you check in.

[1332] There's a window.

[1333] After five.

[1334] Yeah.

[1335] So I think, I think actually, usually click in like a 24 hour clock or Maybe they might have been immediate.

[1336] I don't know.

[1337] It was they have, you have 48 hours to turn it in there.

[1338] And, but anyway, point is, you're not over harvesting.

[1339] You know, the estimate goes up to as high as 7 ,000 mountain lines in Colorado, probably maybe 5 ,000.

[1340] But in the whole state, hunters are allowed to kill 450.

[1341] And they've been doing this.

[1342] And it's not like they're out there killing mountain lions, cutting their heads off, no regard for the numbers, wiping them out.

[1343] It's so regulated.

[1344] You know, you don't have to call and report your deer and elk, but lions are like a whole other level as far as control.

[1345] And think about that quota system.

[1346] If you have a horrific snowstorm that pushes all kinds of deer and elk out of high country and like everybody in his brother, like a perfectly timed snowstorm, and everybody's brother is just piling up deer and elk, they don't go, uh -oh, shut it down they sit back and they'll go like wow mother load what a harvest yeah yeah yeah lions they would they would come in and go oh done yeah yeah but they got a it's a perpetual motion machine where they've had these they've had a really healthy stable population a minimum harvest yeah that just goes on it's under 10 % harvest what's the thing that we should talk about when it comes to these reintroduction of predators which Listen, I fucking love wolves.

[1347] I mean, if you look out here, I have all these photos of wolves.

[1348] It's a long -distance photos of wolves.

[1349] I'm happy that they exist.

[1350] I think they're fucking amazing.

[1351] I got a big one on my wall in my living room.

[1352] They're probably my favorite animal.

[1353] I just think they're the fucking coolest animal of all time.

[1354] I really do.

[1355] I just look in their eyes, photos of them.

[1356] If I come across photos on my Instagram, I'm always like, holy shit, look at that thing.

[1357] They're majestic.

[1358] But their numbers have to be managed.

[1359] And as uncons, comfortable as it sounds for people, wildlife biologists, they have an understanding of the carrying capacity and the resources of the land.

[1360] They understand how many hunters there are.

[1361] They understand how many, that's how tags are allocated.

[1362] Yeah, it's not a guessing game.

[1363] Yeah, the way people need to understand this.

[1364] It's like they've done this for a long time.

[1365] These people have, you know, painstakingly researched these numbers.

[1366] They know exactly what they're doing, But when it comes to this game of reintroduction of animals, the first step is they say there's a carrying capacity for the amount of wolves.

[1367] This is the number.

[1368] When it gets to that, we will agree to open up a season on wolf hunting.

[1369] But every time that happens, there's lawsuits.

[1370] There's lawsuits to try to stop that hunt.

[1371] And then the wolves get larger and larger.

[1372] Yeah.

[1373] And then you have larger and larger populations.

[1374] I was looking at a graph the other day where they showed reintroduction of wolves to the Yellowstone.

[1375] the amount of elk that existed and now the amount of wolves versus the amount of elk and it's pretty shocking it's a giant drop and they're so good at hunting they're fucking amazing but hunting wolves is insanely difficult it's really hard to do they're really fucking smart they're really aware their senses are light years beyond what we can even physically imagine an animal to be capable of doing in our minds like we we know that deer could I remember I was watching an episode of your show where a bear winded you guys like fucking 500 yards or something like it's incredible their noses are fucking amazing Their senses are amazing I don't think we really it's almost like looking at the size of the universe like you know it's 13 point whatever a billion light years across it you don't fucking that's just going in your head you know the mat though the kind of power that a the senses of a wolf have I don't think we could even really fathom it So our thought is people are just going to go in there and wipe out the wolves like they did before.

[1376] That's just ignorance.

[1377] The way they wiped out before was strict -not.

[1378] At this point, you can go and say that it's just that that's not the reality.

[1379] Because after the delisting in the Northern Rockies, after the de -listing, that didn't happen.

[1380] Right.

[1381] Right.

[1382] Did they ever reach their quotas?

[1383] Yeah, they reach quotas.

[1384] Every night, not every night.

[1385] many nights I'll check and y 'all get notifications like the year and I got a notification whatever to hell 313 whatever it was unit had hit its quota Region 5 it hit its quota I'm talking about in Montana whatever region hit its quota at this point it's at this point we've hit at it is a stable there's a stable population of wolves across a big chunk of range that are managed as a renewable natural resources they're managed as a big game species.

[1386] There is no problem.

[1387] It still gets litigated all the time, but the whole idea that they're going to be pushed back onto the ESA, on the endangered species list.

[1388] The state doesn't want that.

[1389] That'd be the worst thing that could happen to the state.

[1390] Right.

[1391] They're not going to shoot them into oblivion.

[1392] Right.

[1393] It's like we have wolves on the landscape, and you could have the extremes of people that want to live in a world where there aren't any.

[1394] That's not realistic.

[1395] Like, you lost that fight.

[1396] You have extremes where people want to live in a world where there's as many as possible, There's no regulation on them, which isn't extreme because we could live in that landscape.

[1397] But right now we're living in a landscape where there are wolves on the ground.

[1398] There's a healthy population.

[1399] There's hunting for them.

[1400] There's a equilibrium emerging.

[1401] And it's very livable.

[1402] But in Colorado, it's like you got hunters that are, if hunters saw that there was a pathway to finding the extent of it, they would probably feel a lot better.

[1403] But right now they're like, we're going to lose 50 % of elk.

[1404] going to lose 75 % of elk.

[1405] This is going to get litigated.

[1406] It could be 100 years from now.

[1407] We could have 90 years of full recovery objective.

[1408] There's still no regulated harvest on wolves, and they're apprehensive.

[1409] And it's also for high population areas, which is the ones that vote the most.

[1410] I mean, that's where the people are that are voting.

[1411] These are generally urban areas that don't have any understanding of what they're even voting on.

[1412] Yeah, they're hoping to see one.

[1413] Like exactly of what's going on in BC when they delisted, when they made it illegal to hunt grizzly bears.

[1414] And the people that live up in BC, like my friend Mike, who lives in northern BC, is like, Jesus Christ, like, first of all, this is a way that a lot of people make a living is by having these bear hunts.

[1415] This is a part of their lifestyle.

[1416] They're guides.

[1417] They guide people to hunt grizzlies.

[1418] And it's important to maintain their population, because if you don't, nothing is and these people in these urban areas they think of it as trophy hunting but at least people know that you eat bear nobody's eaten wolves so that is like one of the most difficult to defend when you say i'm going to go wolf hunting like what a piece of shit you are yeah you're gonna hunt wolves the fuck is wrong with you here's here's a you mentioned you mentioned steve that it's it's kind of at a stable level with the wolves now you know you call and check in and wolves are introduced they're still being hunted so that work in Montana in Idaho I think in Wyoming Idaho Montana right so I sent this to you I was just looking this up in Alaska of course right um in Idaho Lolo region in 95 12 wolves were introduced in 2005 512 wolves were present in 2011 800 wolves are present so the elk from 95 there's 16 ,000 elk in 2016 there was a thousand elk so it went from 16 ,000 to a thousand so that's what wolves can do so when you say and that's they can hunt them in Idaho in Colorado when there is no wolf hunting and now these wolves are back and there and there won't be not under this they're governor now but uh and that's what I say it's like once these prey animals get down then they can say well we don't need hunters there's nothing to hunt.

[1419] Well, that's the objective in California.

[1420] That's a regulated objective in California.

[1421] That's a state objective.

[1422] And I've heard they want to turn Colorado into almost like a viewing state, like, you know, how they do the safaris over in Africa, where there's no hunting.

[1423] You're just out taking pictures.

[1424] That's what they want Colorado to be.

[1425] So they want low numbers of elk and deer, so there is no hunting.

[1426] So then they can say, well, we don't really need hunters.

[1427] And by the way, do you guys need guns now?

[1428] I don't know if you need guns because you said you needed them for hunting.

[1429] So that's a big portion.

[1430] Some people say, yeah, we want our everyday carry for protection.

[1431] A lot of people say we want to hunt.

[1432] With no hunting, you don't need guns.

[1433] So there's this big diabolical plan you could say, is this what's happening?

[1434] But all I know is that where there's wolves, there's way less elk.

[1435] It's openly stated on this wolf conservation website that that's their ultimate goal.

[1436] Their ultimate goal is to remove firearms because you won't need them if you don't need them for hunting.

[1437] You wind up with this attitude about it that, a lot of people that are just really and again I'm stuttering here because I'm not an anti -wolf person right I'm a pro I'm like pro hitting a recovery objective and then having a managed resource but you'll find that a lot of wolf advocates will really try to in one breath tell you that it actually they don't actually do that they don't actually do that actually caused the decline of elk numbers.

[1438] Like when elk numbers collapsed with the coming of the wolf in the Northern Rockies, there's other factors that could have explained that, right?

[1439] They don't actually do that.

[1440] But at the same time, they'll say, oh, but they would be a great tool for controlling wildlife diseases which populate among overpopulated ungulates.

[1441] So you went up getting this cross talk.

[1442] On one hand, oh, they're not that.

[1443] It's not that catastrophic for big game herds.

[1444] but it really lowers big game hurts and helps the disease transmission you know and it's part of that that's kind of stuff really frustrates people yeah you know you like you're you're getting all this you know that they they like shit rainbows you know right and it like it pisses people off well it's also like we're saying it's it's almost indefensible to someone who's an anti -hunter like you could say I hunt for food and people go I don't agree with you but I get it yeah Nobody gets wolf hunting.

[1445] You know, like, do you want to go hunt a wolf?

[1446] I don't want to hunt a wolf.

[1447] I don't want to shoot a wolf.

[1448] I love them.

[1449] I think they're amazing.

[1450] But I get...

[1451] You can say, I take the thing of, um, I harvested an animal and took the thing of highest relevance and value to me. Um, on a deer, I didn't keep the hide.

[1452] I didn't retain the hide, but I kept the meat.

[1453] On a wolf, I didn't keep the meat, but I retained the hide.

[1454] I took the thing of highest value.

[1455] to me. Well, are there, like, some trappers you were telling me that, like, wolf meat was their favorite meat?

[1456] Oh, there's an Arctic Explorer, Viljalmer, Stephenson, and he would, in his, he has a, he had a book, my life with the Eskimo, and he made first contact with a lot of Eskimo Inuit hunters in the Canadian High Arctic, and he always claimed that was his favorite game meat.

[1457] Well, why, if people eat, if they eat Mountain Line, and Mountain Line, you told me it's delicious, right?

[1458] Why don't they eat wolves?

[1459] It's weird, man. I've never, I mean, I've never gotten a wolf.

[1460] You ate a coyote once.

[1461] Yeah, I've never gotten a wolf, and I've never eaten a wolf.

[1462] But I know people that have eaten it, but it's not a, you know, eating, like, lion hunters eating mountain lions is very common.

[1463] I don't believe that, I believe there's some people that eat some wolf meat, because I've heard of it and seen it.

[1464] I don't think it's widely practiced.

[1465] Have you ever heard it?

[1466] Do you ever talk to someone who's eaten wolf?

[1467] Yeah, who, I do know a couple of guys that have eaten wolf.

[1468] um my friend buck bowden's eating wolf that's the guy that makes the bowls yep uh he had eaten it and uh what did he say didn't randy newberg eat a wolf he might have yeah i think he ate what did uh buck bowden say it tastes like uh there's a story about buck bowden where someone's talking to him and he's cleaning a wolverine skull okay when he was trapping wolverines he's cleaning a wolverine skull with a knife at a counter and someone was talking to him.

[1469] And as he's talking to him, he's eating the hunks of meat that he scrapes off the skull with this knife.

[1470] But I don't remember what he told me about it.

[1471] I remember him to tell me the one thing he can't get that he's tried every which way is brown bear is eating salmon.

[1472] I remember him telling me that was the one food that he had a hard time with.

[1473] Well, you were telling that story about how you borrowed your friend smoker.

[1474] Yeah.

[1475] Coastal black bears.

[1476] Yeah.

[1477] And you were like, man, you've got to clean your smoker.

[1478] It smells like fish.

[1479] He's like, I've never cooked fish on that smoker Yeah, you know, I didn't use that for that And I was like, oh, that's my bear My bear ham did that too How did the bear taste?

[1480] Oh, I don't mind it.

[1481] You know it's funny, you know dirt, right?

[1482] Dirt want I really like that You like that bear that tastes like smoked salmon Because he's like, well, I like smoked salmon And I like meat and this is the full bag Yeah, that's fusion No, we ate enough, but I'll just eat stuff You know, I don't care I'll just, if I have it, I'll eat it.

[1483] Well, if you do it right, like one of the things that we learned when we were hunting with Jesse last year like diver ducks which people normally say they taste like shit because they eat the stuff on the bottom of the lakes and now when he cooks Jesse Griffiths can cook some diver duck that makes it like literally one of my favorite foods I've ever eaten in my life you can figure anything out you can figure anything out just depends how much work you want to put into it right and you know and obviously it doesn't hurt being an amazing chef you know but he's he's got it down to a fucking science those divers ducks are sensational but if you talk to the average duck hunter they're like if i got a wolf i would definitely want to have a couple chews off it but uh i mean i could tell you that you'd never separate me from the hide off that thing but i would you know i would i would go into it be like i'm going to try it just because i want to see what it's all about yeah you know but it wouldn't be my primary objective and getting one some of those animals just need to be killed that's all they're like coyotes wolves they just need to be killed you have to and whether you eat them or not not I don't know their numbers need to be managed the wildest thing about kios is it doesn't work as the opposite effect well depending on how good you are at it they're done in a very done in a very surgical fashion at the right time the right place with the right level of intensity they have found that that is effective we got to bring in a fucking special ops unit no like you can there's man if you have you have imperiled populations of pronghorn or imperiled populations of mule deer and you go in deer like deering calving season in the right areas at the right time you can move the needle on recruitment does you now and then if you have a ranch and you now and then see a coyote and get it are you doing like effective predator control probably not that does not mean that you cannot done in a timely fashion like I said surgically a timely fashion with the right approach at the right time you can absolutely move the needle on wildlife recruitment the see it you see it in Alaska they see in Arizona sure but the issue is statewide or locally that might be the case but they will then spread out yeah but they will now they're in every state they're in every city in the country because of that because people have hunted so I put this to someone there a day I got you know how you don't like you don't do media you don't like doing interviews yeah I now and then get like suckered into doing an interview and I did an interview about a contentious issue it was about states banning I knew the minute the journalist called me and he's talking about banning wildlife killing contests and I said can we please say hunting contest at least do you have to say wildlife killing contest and I'm like you know my buddy Doug has a dough derby where they're in an area where they're trying to lower deer numbers for issues of disease transmission, habitat improvement, and he has a little derby where you win some prizes because they're trying to the state is is explicitly trying to encourage dough harvest.

[1484] Is he having a wildlife killing contest or is he having a derby as a management tool, right?

[1485] Anyways, I do this interview and shouldn't have done it because, the quote they pulled for me was not the right quote now I'm so mad about that guy can't remember what point I was driving at you were going to say that they tried to lump it in as a killing contest and oh the outlaw the contests of killing animals basically but I had some like broader ass point I can't remember now what it was apologies got some riled up about talking to that guy yeah yeah and so I do I do want to revisit one thing because I said like for me Anytime I see a coyote, if I got a license and it's legal, I kill it.

[1486] I killed one this year.

[1487] I'm always trying to, my personal thing is I kill so many prey animals a year, whatever that number is.

[1488] I'm going to try to kill a number of predators also.

[1489] I feel like that's doing my part to whatever.

[1490] To balance it.

[1491] To balance it.

[1492] But I didn't want to say one thing about the mountain lion hunting.

[1493] As I say that I will kill a coyote just because I think is to kill, I didn't kill a lion in Colorado because one of the biggest benefits.

[1494] to using dogs is identifying if that's the animal you want to kill it's not what what happens now like in oregon where they outlawed running lions with dogs is if you kill one it's just one you saw and you don't know you don't know what it is you don't know how old it is you don't know male female because you don't have time right and but that's the only way you can hunt them so now they have the season is open all year it never closes in oregon there is no dogs so lion numbers are going way up deer number's going way down.

[1495] That's kind of what happens.

[1496] Where dogs are allowed or baiting for bears allowed or even hunting black bear with dogs is allowed, you're killing the animal that should be killed, the older male generally, and you're identifying it, you're taking out the right one.

[1497] Without those measures in place, those hunting a dog is a tool.

[1498] Without those measures in place, it's not nearly as controlled.

[1499] And it's not like people are just going out there just going to kill any lion of the tree just like I didn't kill one because I didn't see an old male lion houndsmen are the one that originally pushed for lion regulations yeah they were pushing for lion regulations when no one was paying any attention to lion lion uh conservation okay i finally remember my point okay am i allowed to go back at time yeah we were having this conversation where people say that that coyote hunting actually increases coyote numbers and i see what because it disrupts pack dynamics and can lead to animals shooting off and new directions and starting packs.

[1500] And also leads to them having more offspring.

[1501] But I said, well, if you're super pro coyote, why would you not encourage that?

[1502] It's true.

[1503] And I was just throwing it out there as a rhetorical question.

[1504] Well, it is a rhetorical question, but it actually does have merit.

[1505] You know, Dan Flores' book, Coyote America, which is an amazing book.

[1506] Fucking incredible book when you realize how wild those things are.

[1507] When they get killed, when they do their roll call and there's a coyote missing the female coyotes will produce more pups I mean that is just that's the reason why they're everywhere yeah I'm friends with Dan I studied under Dan I have massive respect for Dan I have Dan on the show there's certain little tidbits of this debate that Dan and I don't see eye on and this is one of them yeah but but the effect love him the effect is hard to argue they literally have gone from a hundred years ago where they were primarily in the southwest and in the west to everywhere in New York City.

[1508] I mean, they have coyotes in fucking Central Park.

[1509] Yeah, and some of their...

[1510] And you got to realize, too, like, wildlife dynamics can play out very slowly.

[1511] So in some ways, it's possible they're still responding from the elimination of the wolf.

[1512] Right.

[1513] Right.

[1514] Like, some of this stuff takes so long.

[1515] You just look at, like, why does just very...

[1516] Very gradually, why do raccoons and possums keep going north and west?

[1517] It's just so weirdly gradual.

[1518] Havilinas, right, move over time.

[1519] So you see these things that happen so slowly that you can't picture and playing out.

[1520] But with the coyote, it seemed like there was a gradual movement and then just an explosion.

[1521] I remember them coming into our area.

[1522] Like, I was a red fox trapper, and we didn't have coyotes.

[1523] I remember the first coyote I ever saw.

[1524] and now it's like for the most part red fox are gone and coyotes are there um and that was part of the like not just the gradual increase that was like the explosion in the 90s where they just like I don't know they suddenly figured something out something clicked I don't know what it was man I was this conversation with some guy in the Hollywood hills you know people up there are terrified of losing their dogs they lose their dogs all the time dogs and they lose their dogs all the time dogs and cats get killed by coyotes constantly and he was telling me about this and it's like fucking hate them they're everywhere i go yeah i get it but you love rats because if it wasn't for coyotes rats would be everywhere they'd be everywhere like they they also keep the population of things down that you don't want i mean they're they're an essential part of the ecosystem they there's a reason why like where i used to live in california it's not infested with rats because it's got a lot of coyotes They're fucking everywhere.

[1525] And, yeah, don't leave your dog out.

[1526] Yeah, don't let a, you know, a kitten roam around your backyard and you're not looking because they'll get it.

[1527] You know, they killed all my chickens.

[1528] But they're also like, they're a very important part of that system.

[1529] Again, I don't dislike them.

[1530] Yeah, I love them.

[1531] I like them.

[1532] Every year I flesh and stretch a few and send them to the tannery.

[1533] Someday I'm going to have a big giant bed spread out of Kyos.

[1534] How many do you have now?

[1535] What's that?

[1536] How many do you have?

[1537] How did I got saved up now?

[1538] I mean, I used to sell them.

[1539] Now I got saved up, maybe 10 of them.

[1540] How many do you need for a bedspread?

[1541] I haven't done the math yet.

[1542] Maybe my body sent in, and we had 50 beavers, and we did two blankets, two big blankets out of 50 beavers.

[1543] Oh, wow.

[1544] Beautiful.

[1545] The fur thing is a fascinating one, too, because there's people that are really anti -fur, but yet they're wearing leather.

[1546] And they probably don't like the old.

[1547] oil industry that they drive they drive a car well that was my favorite I talked about that on stage last night the fucking stop oil people that block the highway with their fucking paint on their sign that's made with oil wearing shoes that are made with oil wearing clothes unless they're dressed and fur it's made on antidepressants that were made from oil you know they use oil for everything I didn't know that oh yeah man that's something that's something that happened in the early 1900s.

[1548] They figured out to use petroleum -based things to make medicine.

[1549] Yeah.

[1550] They've got their fingers and everything, don't they?

[1551] Everything.

[1552] Not fur.

[1553] Not fur.

[1554] Yeah.

[1555] But it's like the weird thing is like people don't like animal skins that have fur on it.

[1556] That's the crazy part.

[1557] Like if you have fur boots, people are like, oh, you piece of shit.

[1558] But if you have leather boots, it's like, oh, guys got boots on.

[1559] Yeah.

[1560] It's almost over notice, but it always drives me crazy.

[1561] It's weird.

[1562] Why is it become bad?

[1563] Why is it so much better to take the fur off?

[1564] It's weird.

[1565] It's weird.

[1566] The skin itself is leather and that's fine.

[1567] But if you leave the fur on, oh, you fucking creep.

[1568] It's weird.

[1569] Yeah, that's one argument that I, you know, people like to lump, kind of an aside, but lump hunters into trophy hunters or meat hunters, which I think we would all agree, you can be both.

[1570] Yes.

[1571] I mean, I take every ounce of the meat from the animals I kill.

[1572] Every ounce is like is more valuable than gold to me. and I take all the antlers, the hide, I got, you know, claws.

[1573] I mean, it's like all, that's all part of that memory of that hunt.

[1574] And I'm honoring that memory and that harvest, essentially.

[1575] But I'm also sharing that meat.

[1576] We eat the meat every night or every day.

[1577] And it's like, we're both.

[1578] We're not just, because I meet people and they say, well, you're not a trophy hunter, are you?

[1579] I'm like, yeah.

[1580] Yeah, I am.

[1581] Yeah, I'd be like, I'm all kinds of hunters.

[1582] Yeah.

[1583] Yeah.

[1584] Well, you know, here's what's interesting.

[1585] It's like we're so separated from the idea of animals and just the wilderness itself being a resource in order to sustain you.

[1586] But during COVID, there was a bunch of people that reached out to me and wanted to start hunting because they had this thought.

[1587] Because when, like, my friend Duncan went to the supermarket and he sent me a picture.

[1588] He was like, dude, there's no food.

[1589] You sent me a photo of the meat shelf, and there was literally, like, a package of ground beef left.

[1590] There was nothing left because the supply chain got interrupted.

[1591] And people started thinking, oh, my God, we could get to a part where I don't have any food.

[1592] Like, that's a real reality.

[1593] Yeah, people felt vulnerable.

[1594] They felt vulnerable.

[1595] So two things started happening to me during that.

[1596] People started reaching out asking me about hunting, and then when the George Floyd riots kicked in, people wanted to borrow guns.

[1597] People asked to borrow guns.

[1598] How many guns do you have?

[1599] Can I have one of your guns?

[1600] Yeah.

[1601] I was like, that's not legal.

[1602] Because in Texas, I could just give you one, which is wild.

[1603] Like in Texas, you don't even have to fill out paperwork.

[1604] Like, if you were a Texas resident and I was a Texas resident, I'm like, you like, you like, you like that gun?

[1605] You can have it.

[1606] Oh, yeah.

[1607] And that's your gun.

[1608] I should say most places, but that's the norm.

[1609] That's the norm.

[1610] But in California, I was like, I can't do that.

[1611] It's absolutely illegal.

[1612] I could go to jail for giving you a gun.

[1613] Like, you have to go through the whole process.

[1614] And then the lines outside the gun stores were wild.

[1615] Because what you can't do is you can't go down and buy, you can't go down to the FFL, the federal, like a, you can't go down to a dealer.

[1616] Gunstore.

[1617] And buy it and say it's for you.

[1618] And then.

[1619] Give it to someone.

[1620] But it's actually your buddy buying it.

[1621] Right.

[1622] That you definitely can't do.

[1623] Right.

[1624] You can't do that.

[1625] But in terms of you, like, legitimately went and bought it for yourself and then you decided that you did not want it, you can gift that.

[1626] Yeah.

[1627] To a friend.

[1628] What they try to prevent is your buddy saying, hey.

[1629] hey, go down and buy it for me. I'm a felon and can't.

[1630] Right.

[1631] That makes sense.

[1632] That's your ass.

[1633] So they don't probably, though, oddly, they don't really prosecute people for lying on FFL statements.

[1634] Interesting.

[1635] It's a real, yeah, it's a real issue.

[1636] Yeah, that could be definitely an issue if someone's a felon.

[1637] I mean, but then there's also the...

[1638] They'll reject the purchase and not go after the person.

[1639] But when they have those gun fucking conventions, when you can go and just, what do they call those things?

[1640] Gun shows.

[1641] Gun shows.

[1642] Where people just, you can, that's a weird one, right?

[1643] Yeah.

[1644] It's like it's they kind of can skirt around some regulations and that was part of things that people didn't like When you hear in the gun control debate people about talking about trying to close the gunhole loophole as they're trying to put it that They should be subject to FFL transfers, but like when my dad died and I got my dad's guns We didn't do an FFL transfer now.

[1645] Right how does any kid get it at their deer hand rifle?

[1646] Yeah, right?

[1647] I get it from your dad from your grandpa.

[1648] Yeah, or like here you you go son right like that's just how it works wrapped up under the tree man yeah right yeah it's there's a lot of regulations that make sense and there's a lot of them that don't and most of the ones that come out of california don't i mean the limiting magazines that's a fucking insane one like down to 10 rounds or certain guns you can't even buy they're trying to do in oregon five rounds oh my god that's hilarious wasn't washington already did that right maybe so maybe that's what i'm that is so crazy yeah so what do you do if you have a glock 16 you don't yeah i don't I'm not sure.

[1649] I mean, that's fucking insane.

[1650] It's insane.

[1651] I can't remember.

[1652] I shouldn't speak to that, but I know that there's a, there's, I don't know about, on long guns, there's a restriction, a magazine restriction.

[1653] What's interesting is for hunting waterfowl, federally regulated migratory waterfowl, there's always been a magazine restriction in the field.

[1654] Three rounds.

[1655] And then, as they're trying to lower snow geese numbers to protect.

[1656] arctic habitats they've gone in and undone they've made an exception to allow unlimited capacity magazines to hunt snow geese so it's one of those weird areas where you see a real reversal of like a time honored tradition which is three rounds in your gun to make it that people can kill more snow geese that's an animal that i want to hunt with you one day the rib eye in the sky oh the cranes yeah sandhill cranes i've heard those are insanely delicious it's great it's great it's crazy when you see a bird that is like a dark red meat it's like what is this this isn't a chicken yeah what the hell kind of bird is this friend of mine he's right where he said it's watching one of those come down out of the sky is like watching a folding lawn chair hit the ground it's just the wild bird to hunt you know i i asked this question to waddell the other day what do you guys think would end hunting if anything does do you think it would be um Anti -hunters, politics, or fellow hunters, causing division and infighting and whatever.

[1657] Public referendums, politics.

[1658] Yeah, urban centers.

[1659] People vote and they don't have an understanding of what they're voting on.

[1660] You don't got to wonder about it.

[1661] It's happening.

[1662] Yeah.

[1663] It's not theoretical.

[1664] Well, why would you say hunters, though?

[1665] Like hunters, in what way?

[1666] Well, because I see fellow hunters, there's so much infighting.

[1667] Whereas you look at the anti -hunters, they're so aligned.

[1668] They're not like, oh.

[1669] Parsing out of this and that.

[1670] Yeah, this guy is the number one anti -hunter in the United States.

[1671] No, he's not.

[1672] He's a piece of shit.

[1673] Hunters love, like, tearing each other as far.

[1674] He ate a real anti -hunter.

[1675] Yeah, no, I'm, he's a fucking private land anti -hunter.

[1676] He's ruining it for all of us anti -hunters.

[1677] He's a wolf and sheep's clothing.

[1678] It doesn't happen.

[1679] they are so aligned right they get they get you know they have the lobbyists working for them meanwhile hunters fuck we can't get out of our own way on half the shit yeah but i have a long history of being a public person and i understand it from a different dynamic because there's just a thing that happens with men where they become jealous of other men and hateful of other people's success and then they look at other people for whatever reason as anytime they do something it takes away from them or they look at someone getting attention and somehow another it takes away from them and they focus entirely on that person's success or who that person is and they try to find flaws with them it's a natural thing with jealous weak -minded men right so we have that in hunting yeah you're gonna have that in everything though we have that in comedy it's a real issue with stand -up comedy we have that in fighting nobody's trying to ban comedy but they are you're wrong Yeah, there's shitty comics that try to tell people what they can and can't joke about.

[1680] Like what comments?

[1681] Yep, they all suck.

[1682] There's one thing they have in common, they're all not funny.

[1683] 100 % of them, every single one.

[1684] There's not a single one that's exceptional.

[1685] It's not a single one that is anti -comedy about controversial subjects that people are excited to go to see them that are real comedy fans, that are really good comics.

[1686] There's not a single anti -controversial joke comic that other comics seek out to go see.

[1687] What's interesting is half your guests are your competitors.

[1688] Half your guests are comics.

[1689] Yeah, but I don't think of comics ever as competitors.

[1690] They're my tribe.

[1691] I try the best I can to get them more famous.

[1692] I want them to be huge.

[1693] My daughter had a book that described, she had a book about jealousy and it described jealousy as a hot, prickly feeling.

[1694] I've heard it as a vessel that poisons the thing that carries it, or a substance that poisons the vessel that carries it.

[1695] You know, and that's the best way to look at it.

[1696] It doesn't do you any good.

[1697] But it can do the opposite.

[1698] It can do the opposite if you have a good mindset.

[1699] If you have a good mindset and you see someone and you're envious, that can be fuel for your success.

[1700] As long as you manage it in your mind, like almost everything else it's complicated, you have to manage it in your mind as like, this can fuel me and be a fantastic resource.

[1701] When I see someone's success, I get inspired to work harder.

[1702] I get inspired to do more.

[1703] So I am happy that that person is success.

[1704] So if you saw a comet coming up and they were kind of in your wheelhouse and nipping on your heels, you'd be like, I'm going to have that son bitch on the show.

[1705] 100%.

[1706] Every time.

[1707] I do it all the time.

[1708] I'm going to shine a spotlight on that.

[1709] 100%.

[1710] That is my, that's why I used to take Joey Diaz on the road with me because I couldn't follow him.

[1711] I was like he's so funny He was the funniest guy alive And people are like You take Joey Diaz on the road with you You're out of your fucking mind And I'm like yeah But but if I can ride that wave You're setting yourself up to be that one guy That wasn't as fun he's the other guy Oh I would hear it all the time People would say you know You know you're opening acts funnier than you I'm like yeah He's the best You have a unique You have a unique mindset That's all I worry about Or not all I worry about But with hunters We just we have a hard time giving other people credit being supportive of each other some of us and so with this this disjoiningness that's what I get worried about you know how that changes these conversations yeah well gets out there in the zeit guys people hear it they recognize their own failings their own shortcomings and their own thought processes and then they realize this is not admirable well some people never will we can't afford it I mean we can't afford we can't you know so I'm thankful for outfits like Dan Gates is in Colorado and And then there's another one I wanted to mention called Howell.

[1712] Yeah.

[1713] And I think is John Stallone?

[1714] Man, I know we had Dan Gates join us at a live show.

[1715] And we got him scheduled to come on the podcast as voting starts heating up on the, as voting starts heat.

[1716] Or, you know, as the, we start nearing the date for the initiative in Colorado.

[1717] Right.

[1718] I'm familiar with Howell.

[1719] I was introduced to Howell by my colleague Janus, who's a supporter.

[1720] And we've done some things of support.

[1721] them but man that name i probably met him but just right now i'm spacing it right if i am so apologies to him i believe it's john stollone but but anyway it's they are helping keep us organized they're you know make it easy to send letters to legislators and it's just yeah they're leading the fight on they're leading the fight on the on the hunting bands right so and that and especially in that arena right there that's a positive that's a big one they're still like in the grand scheme of things small like if you look at numbers of followers or things like that but they're making an impact and so i've been trying to i want to support them and and um help where we can it's just you know this you know you're unique when you look at a comic hot comic coming up and you want to celebrate them i wish hunting could be more like that it can be it can be you just got a these weak people have to understand that we know what they are we we see right through them and you're not admirable not only not admirable you're not respected by your peers everybody knows you're a bitch Nobody likes a bitch.

[1722] And when you're a man and you can't recognize another man's success or you see a man and you measure yourself up to him and you fall short.

[1723] And so you start shitting on that person, everybody knows what you're doing.

[1724] Every man knows what you're doing, especially every exceptional man. They know 100 % what you're doing.

[1725] So you have to live with that.

[1726] And that's how it's a poison that ruins the vessel that carries it.

[1727] It's not good for anybody.

[1728] And it's just a thing that people do.

[1729] people have always been jealous of other human beings throughout time but you got to understand for your own personal benefit that feeling can be changed inside of you to fuel and it will make you a better person it'll make you better at what you do it'll make you understand that competition is critical and vital in order for you to reach your full potential you don't reach your full potential if you're the king and everybody else is a pussy because then you're like well I'm the king everybody else is just a bitch I don't have to be any better.

[1730] But if you're a king around other kings, you realize, wow, these guys are all fucking getting up earlier than me, working harder than me, thinking smarter than me, being more effective, recognizing their shortcomings, fixing them, talking about it with other people that do the same and growing from each other.

[1731] You know, when we have, like, in the mothership, the comedy club that I own, when we get together in the green room during the shows, we're always breaking down bits, we're talking show.

[1732] We don't, like, hold secrets.

[1733] We don't have, like, trade secrets.

[1734] I don't want to tell anybody how I write.

[1735] I tell everybody how I write.

[1736] I tell everybody how I correct things.

[1737] I'm like, this is a thing that I've noticed that helps me. Here's the thing that I've added.

[1738] I started listening to my recordings and doing this afterwards.

[1739] When I get home, I always do, if you just do that one hour every night, just think over time how much.

[1740] And then my other friends have said, I started doing that, dude.

[1741] You're right.

[1742] I just sat down for 10 minutes.

[1743] I had a new bit.

[1744] I wouldn't have come up with that bit if I didn't do that.

[1745] I guess.

[1746] Yeah, now we all learn from each other.

[1747] But if you see this one guy.

[1748] that's out there that's putting in all this extra work and succeeding and you just start shitting on them everybody knows what you're doing you know what you're doing motherfucker you know in your heart of hearts you know you're being a bitch right and you can live with that if you like but i can't i i i'm allergic to that feeling in me i hate that feeling i've experienced it i know what it is it'll still bubble up every now and then if someone's killing it i'm Like, wow, that guy's doing so good.

[1749] I'm going to fuck him.

[1750] You know, like that fuck him part of you is always there.

[1751] But you got to go, oh, you little bitch.

[1752] I know what you are.

[1753] You're a little bitch.

[1754] But if you can do that.

[1755] This is in the mirror.

[1756] It generally never gets the mirror.

[1757] It's like I try to squat that fucker as soon as it comes up.

[1758] Like a weed.

[1759] I pull it out right away.

[1760] But if you don't do that, it's not good.

[1761] It's not good for you.

[1762] You never change people's opinions.

[1763] if someone is doing exceptional work and doing an exceptional job of being very unusually successful and then you start picking all the little flaws in that person and people are going to look at you they're going to go but you're kind of fat and lazy and you fuck up all the time and you're always drunk and like this problem and that problem and how come you're not looking at your own self with the same scrutiny that you look at this extremely successful person it's because you're jealous that's all it is It's a natural human instinct, but that feeling can be repurposed.

[1764] That thought can benefit you, that feeling of comparing yourself and coming up short.

[1765] What you're supposed to do is going, what do I need to do so I don't have this feeling anymore?

[1766] Why don't you work harder?

[1767] I need to work smarter.

[1768] I need to do some things that I'm not doing that maybe make me uncomfortable.

[1769] And that's what I need to do to get better.

[1770] Yeah.

[1771] You know, to your point last night, I saw two of the funniest people I've ever seen, Shane and Tony both putting notes in their phone from comments that were made in the green room.

[1772] Oh, really?

[1773] Oh, we always do that.

[1774] Yeah.

[1775] So they're like, just like, oh, that's, okay, I'm going to put this down so I don't forget it.

[1776] Trying to grow.

[1777] You know, that's exactly what you're talking about.

[1778] They're almost at the top of the game still trying to get better based on feedback from other comics.

[1779] We always do that.

[1780] We workshop constantly.

[1781] We're always in that green room.

[1782] And I was trying to explain that to one of the managers.

[1783] I was like, The reason why we have to, like, when comics get together, like, we're at the comics bar and we're all just talking shit, like, if someone is sensitive and they get in that and they start complaining about jokes that are being told, hey, you've got to leave now.

[1784] Because this is literally how we spar.

[1785] Like, this is what we do.

[1786] If you're complaining that someone is making fun of this person or picking on that person, creating an unsafe work environment, okay, well, you can't be here.

[1787] It's like, if you go to the gym and you're trying to be a boxer and you're like, everybody's trying to hit me. Like, that's what they do.

[1788] This is how you get better.

[1789] You hit each other.

[1790] You don't like being hit?

[1791] You can't be here.

[1792] You can't fucking be here.

[1793] And that's, this is like this, the reality of what we do.

[1794] And the only people that really truly know that are the practitioners.

[1795] The ones who are doing this very difficult thing.

[1796] Look, with stand -up comedy, there's a lot of hunters.

[1797] There's a thousand of us on earth that are worth a fuck.

[1798] It might be less.

[1799] I'm being generous.

[1800] It's probably 500.

[1801] It might be 250 that I want to see.

[1802] on planet earth 250 comics that I would go out of my way to see that's not a lot like we gotta fucking stick together there's so few of us for you be shitting on this guy because he's selling out arenas why do you think people like him what is it what's he doing well he's doing something fucking figure it out get better I was I'm curious does comedy have the same in hunting it was a big deal when the girl started coming in right so a lot of guys would say oh she's just getting this because she's got her tits out or whatever right which is true and but i could see i could see comedy being the same like because there are women comics did you guys look at women and be like she shouldn't be up there it's only she's only up there gets a stage time because she's hot well comedy is a meritocracy the thing about comedy is if you're not funny we find out real quick nobody laughs at you just because your tits are out well the thing about hunting though like there's there's there's gals that become very popular online that are just hot wearing camo.

[1803] But how I looked at it is if I can't be more whatever, stand out more than this girl just because she's hot, I must not be that fucking good.

[1804] I think of it in terms of effectiveness.

[1805] Like if a girl is really hot and she's got big tits and camo, but she's also a beast and she's out there really killing a lot of things.

[1806] Okay, that's not very many.

[1807] Right.

[1808] So what are you worried about?

[1809] I'm not.

[1810] I know.

[1811] I know you're not, but some guys are.

[1812] But like, what do you worry?

[1813] They're not effective.

[1814] Like, if there's a girl that's hot and she gets on stage and she's bombing all the time, no one's like, yeah, she's only up there because she's hot.

[1815] Like, you don't care.

[1816] Like, if she's bombing, if someone bombs all the time, you're like, er, get away from me. Like, you don't want to be around them.

[1817] They're like, it's like, it's contagious.

[1818] But someone's good, like Whitney Cummings.

[1819] Whitney Cummings is hot.

[1820] But she's also really fucking funny.

[1821] Yeah.

[1822] And so when Whitney's just a real comic, when we're, around Whitney, no one thinks, oh, here's that hot chick that's like, it's just like, oh, it's Whitney, what's up?

[1823] It's like, she's one of us, but she also is hot.

[1824] It's hard to be that person.

[1825] It's very fucking rare, but it's doable.

[1826] But she had to go through all these ladders to get there because it's preconceived notions when you see a woman go on stage, you're like immediately, a lot of men, I've been guilty of it.

[1827] You know, what are the odds?

[1828] She's funny.

[1829] She's too hot.

[1830] It's like, you almost immediately think you can't have it.

[1831] Well, it's not so you think, like, how did she ever, like Richard, Christopher Hitchens, rather, wrote a long piece for Vanity Fair ones called Women Aren't Funny.

[1832] I remember that.

[1833] It was brilliant.

[1834] He was so fucking smart.

[1835] Who wrote that?

[1836] Christopher Hitchens.

[1837] Okay.

[1838] Because he could attack things from a level of intellectual introspection.

[1839] Like, he has looked at this in a way, like, analyze his own thoughts on funny.

[1840] how he feels, how other people feel.

[1841] He broke it down so clearly that female comics really couldn't even say anything about it because what he was saying was true.

[1842] He was like, the ones that are funny are kind of dyke.

[1843] They're kind of like, you know, like these ones.

[1844] And he's like, no, I'll go back to attacking religion and other safe subjects.

[1845] But there's, you know, it's that thing.

[1846] It's like, why do, why are men funny?

[1847] Men are funny for a lot of reasons to impress women.

[1848] That's how they learn to do it, to impress their friends.

[1849] Like, it's a part of the natural banter that men have when they get together.

[1850] Women don't necessarily have that same banter.

[1851] Some do, but most don't.

[1852] And women don't have to be funny to attract men.

[1853] They just have to look good.

[1854] So they think they're funny because guys are laughing at anything because they want to sleep with them.

[1855] They're like, oh, you're so funny.

[1856] I remember when we were young, someone pointing out that for a girl to say a guy was nice is not good.

[1857] Oh, right.

[1858] They're like, dude, she said you're nice.

[1859] They're like, if she says that he's funny, that's a real good sign.

[1860] Yeah, yeah, it's true.

[1861] It's true.

[1862] Because you don't want the nice thing.

[1863] There's less funny women, but the women that are funny, I respect the shit out of them.

[1864] Because it's so hard to do.

[1865] Especially, first of all, your subject matters limited because nobody wants to see a woman talking about politics on stage.

[1866] Very few men want to see a woman with like very strong political opinions on things.

[1867] You're like, shut the fuck up.

[1868] They get mad.

[1869] And then if you talk about sex, you talk about sex too much, oh, she's a slut.

[1870] Like, there's all these thoughts that.

[1871] That's always struck me as the unfair thing is how much guys get uncomfortable by that.

[1872] Oh, totally unfair.

[1873] Totally unfair.

[1874] Guys get real like, oh.

[1875] But it does create a situation for a woman comic that if a woman comic can navigate that, they become undeniable.

[1876] If you can navigate all those preconceived ideas that people, have about you before you go on stage but yet you still succeed at making them laugh that's black belt shit that's a high level comedy that's what Whitney can do yeah you know she she she pull I've seen people look at her when she gets on stage and they're like she's hot whatever yeah yeah she's hot and then and then she starts killing and they're like god damn it she's fucking funny and then after while you just give in they're like wow she's fucking great and then you're laughing you're just enjoying yourself but it's it's much more complex whereas a fat guy gets on stage and you know he's already funny it's funny looking big fat stupid looking guy and he starts talking about himself being fat and then you know you got a lot of leeway yeah you know i want to return for a minute you're talking about um after you know comics being in the green room workshopping if if in colorado they lose this valid initiative about hunting bobcats and hunting mount lines around this definition of trophy hunting and america's hunters get together in the green room and workshop what went wrong yeah uh i think they're going to determine that what went wrong is not um identifying with and fighting for people who are engaged in the activity that that a specific segment of the activity that you're not engaged with right and needing to come into the awareness that like this as this plays out this will get around to impacting you yes but you have to have that ability to do that this is going to get around this is like the next thing that comes up is going to be something that is going to like strike at you near and dear and it's going to be bow hunting is cruel unnecessarily cruel right yeah there are people that have that perspective that are hunters yeah and then they're going to then you're going to be like you're going to freak out right yeah yeah yeah when they start coming this is going too far yeah yeah then you'll be you'll be the one that you you ignored when other uh you'll be ignored when other traditional use practices were getting eliminated because it didn't affect you and then now here it is on your doorstep there's also a thing about hunters where they're competitive in a different way than like saying comparison to stand -up comics because stand -up comics you have that audience to yourself it's not like they killed the audience.

[1877] The audience doesn't exist anymore.

[1878] Like, I had a great audience.

[1879] I did you kill them all?

[1880] You fucking piece of shit.

[1881] That's a good point.

[1882] Now this is their audience sucks.

[1883] But if like you go to the mountains and you kill a 400 -inch bull, like that's a 400 -inch bull, I can't kill that bull.

[1884] Now, oh, he fucking kills all the big bowls.

[1885] There's no bulls left.

[1886] Audiences are always there.

[1887] And the more comics that are really funny, the more it makes comedy grow.

[1888] And you get more audiences.

[1889] You're not assassinating them.

[1890] Yeah, but you could be competing with them on any given night, though.

[1891] Yeah.

[1892] You're both in Toledo on Monday.

[1893] Sort of, but when it's your opportunity, it's your opportunity.

[1894] And it's just your own shortcomings that are allowing you to fail in comparison to them.

[1895] It's not them doing something.

[1896] It's not like they're yelling at you from the side of the stage trying to fuck up your routine.

[1897] You know what I'm saying?

[1898] Yeah.

[1899] But it's like when you have your time, that's your time.

[1900] And that's...

[1901] Yeah.

[1902] I think, you know, with a bull, there's more bulls, though.

[1903] You know, it's not like there's just one.

[1904] There are, but there's not a lot of 400 -inch pulls.

[1905] And if you're a public land hunter and there's a specific unit and there's, you know, that's allocated 150 tags for a specific unit and everybody's in there, hiking out, and one guy shoots this big -ass bull.

[1906] That's a big -ass bowl that you're not going to be able to kill.

[1907] Yeah.

[1908] And so there's a different level of competition because even though it's a renewable resource, it's a limited resource.

[1909] And there's also exceptional aspects of that resource, like an enormous animal.

[1910] A very unusual, rare outlier of an animal.

[1911] That if someone kills it, now you can't.

[1912] So there's that competition.

[1913] And then there's also the fucking dick measuring thing where guys are taking grip and grins.

[1914] You know, one of the things is really disturbing to me is the numbers thing.

[1915] You know, I was talking to a friend of mine who was a guide, and he was furious because this guy, who is this well -known hunter, shot a mule deer.

[1916] And it was a beautiful mule deer.

[1917] but it was only 189 inches And he wanted a 190 He wanted a 200 inch Oh And he didn't think of it as like He's like it's just a buck It's just a buck And this guy was like I would cut off my left nut To shoot that fucking buck And this guy is this rich famous hunter Who goes in and he's complaining about it He's not even appreciating this thing It's a buck Just a buck Just a bug That's a giant old 7, 8 year old deer That's a giant Dude, I'll, yeah, but it's funny.

[1918] I'll get something.

[1919] I have a lot of stuff that I've never measured, never will.

[1920] I got a really nice moose this year.

[1921] I don't, you know, I don't even, I don't, no one measures, I should say no one.

[1922] Yeah, pretty much no one measures moose.

[1923] You tell about how wide there and you leave it at that.

[1924] But I will have stuff for now and then someone's like, you know, around me that likes to do that.

[1925] And I'd be like, dude, measure that thing.

[1926] I'm just curious about it.

[1927] Right.

[1928] Yeah.

[1929] I mean, it's like, I don't hate the.

[1930] It's a point of reference.

[1931] Yeah, I don't hate the.

[1932] number system i get curious about like i'm curious about all aspects of all aspects of hunting and wildlife and and and the boon and crockis system is of interest to me i don't live and die by it but you know at times i'm not curious what that is but if someone shot a real stomper i might be like what does that matter like what did it what did it tape out to that's that's what i that's what i do too i don't necessarily care about what if i kill something just because i just was there mature animal i'm not i'm not thinking about is this 400 is this no anything and I said this the other day and talking to waddell it's like you know people talk about that you get great opportunities to hunt you know I mean that's just all there's to it but I said Joe I've never heard Joe talk about a score of something or he didn't want to kill it because I said he doesn't care there's been one antlered elk that he's like he would kill it right I tried to yeah and you're fine with it pulled me off so yeah I don't care I'm gonna eat that And he's a big bull I think it's kind of cool When they have broken antlers It doesn't bother me at all People will take shots at you Because you killed a giant bull And this and that And they've been hunting their whole lives It's like You don't give a fuck You just want to hunt You're hunting Yeah And you don't care what it scores You're not after Like the biggest bull on the mountain You just love hunting And like that's a truth People can turn it into Whatever they want They're wrong I'm like Daniel Boone man I go to the best hunting place I can go yeah yeah you should like I don't know many people that yeah it's like I don't know many people that if they said like hey man we're gonna go on family vacation and we found this sweet spot but then we got thinking we should actually go to family vacation in a shitty spot yeah well it's also all the it's the same thing that we're talking about with jealousy if those people had the resources that I have and if you didn't do what I do you're a moron you don't go to the places where there's elk screaming all over the place and it's awesome I'm always looking for good opportunities I mean, I'll take the shitty ones, too, because I'm looking to get out all the time.

[1933] So I'll take the shitty ones.

[1934] I'll take the good ones.

[1935] But I'm going to generally, like, if I get to a, if I'm at a fork in the trail and one side is, like, good and one side's bad, I'm going up the good one.

[1936] A hundred percent of the time.

[1937] Yeah.

[1938] It's just a resource thing.

[1939] You know, like, do you have the ability to do that?

[1940] If you don't, you might criticize people to do.

[1941] Oh, ever since I was a little kid.

[1942] We went to the way.

[1943] I did the best thing, you know, I went to the best spot I could get my hands up.

[1944] Find the best fishing hole.

[1945] Always.

[1946] Whatever is like.

[1947] Yeah.

[1948] I mean, you're right.

[1949] It's a resource thing because when I started where I killed that spike bowl that I talked about earlier, that was Warehouser, Timber Company land.

[1950] Anybody could go there.

[1951] Everybody could go there freaking hard hunting to kill a bull with a bow so hard up there.

[1952] That was as tough as it got, right?

[1953] So then I'm like, well, God, we could go to the wilderness.

[1954] It's more open.

[1955] It's on the east side of the state where I was hunting the west side of the state.

[1956] The bulls are more vocal.

[1957] It's the high country.

[1958] That's better hunting.

[1959] God, but that cost, we got to drive all the way eight hours across the state.

[1960] We need gas money.

[1961] We need food when we're there.

[1962] We're not just going home every night.

[1963] But it was better hunting.

[1964] So, yeah, Roy sold a gun.

[1965] We got some money.

[1966] We drove over there, better hunting.

[1967] Then it was like, shit, Oregon.

[1968] Oregon sucks hunting.

[1969] hunting wise compared to other states.

[1970] It's like, I wonder if I could hunt Wyoming, put in for a general tag in Wyoming, drew it, killed a six by six bowl.

[1971] Next time I drew it, killed a seven by six.

[1972] I'm like, God, this is so much better than Oregon, but it's $1 ,100 for this premium milk tag that I was putting in for.

[1973] Got to work a little harder.

[1974] Got to come up with some more resource.

[1975] You said it's a resource that you're allocating.

[1976] Worked a little harder.

[1977] That was better hunting.

[1978] It's just that process.

[1979] I started with the shittiest hunting.

[1980] get in the shittiest state to hunt, maybe Washington's about his dad.

[1981] No, my state was way shittier and near state.

[1982] Yeah, right.

[1983] Yeah, exactly.

[1984] So, but you, you keep working for these.

[1985] Don't you give me shitty state.

[1986] Your shitty state stuff.

[1987] Michigan?

[1988] Is that where?

[1989] I'll tease it, but I had it quite good.

[1990] I'm just joking.

[1991] But that's how people think.

[1992] No, it is true.

[1993] You're right.

[1994] But anyway, the point is, is like, you keep working, you keep moving up the ladder to get to better hunting.

[1995] Yeah.

[1996] Now, it It crosses the line, and I do understand when people are killing high fence animals and small properties, and they're making it look like this is a wild animal.

[1997] Yeah.

[1998] You know, there comes a line, and that line gets crossed all the fucking time right here in Texas.

[1999] Yeah, I don't like...

[2000] Because I know people that have...

[2001] I know a guy who has a 200 -acre high -fence property, and I'm like, ooh, I don't think to go there.

[2002] That's rough.

[2003] I can't go there.

[2004] If you have a 15 -acre...

[2005] 20 ,000 acre high fence property.

[2006] I'm like, okay, what are the odds those animals, unless it's a mule deer, it's a migratory animal?

[2007] What are the odds those animals would ever get out of that 15 ,000 acres in their normal natural life?

[2008] As long as you're not feeding them, if you're not like, I'm standing over a feeder waiting from them to show up at 5 p .m. As long as it's not that, it's just hunting.

[2009] And when people start talking about private land versus public, I understand the appeal.

[2010] And I understand that public land should be available to everybody, And I agree.

[2011] And I think it's an amazing thing that we have here in America where we have these resources where any person can go to a place where you can get a general tag and go to public land and hunt.

[2012] I think it's amazing.

[2013] But you're also dealing with animals that are acting in a very unnatural way because they're highly pressured.

[2014] So if you have a lot of hunters and a lot of pressured animals, you're dealing with an animal that's not acting like a wild animal.

[2015] You're dealing with something that's being constantly harassed.

[2016] And that to me is unnatural.

[2017] Well, that, yeah, then you get into like a history debate because you're on landscapes that have been hunted.

[2018] But I would agree that high pressure absolutely changes everything about how they conduct their business.

[2019] You're also competing with other guys.

[2020] Like I've talked to guys that have had situations where they know that they are downwind or they're, you know, their upwind rather, their wind is going to come down on an animal, but they see someone stalking that animal and they try to get to it first and they know they're going to bust it they know it and they don't give a fuck they would rather bust it than have the other guy kill it yeah they know to take a chance and there's so many morons that are doing it i think the best case scenario is human beings interacting with absolutely wild animals in a way where these animals aren't acting as natural as they would be as if human beings didn't exist that's best case scenario yeah and if you can get to the most remote places that's where you can get that in the most wild places i will say your example about you didn't want somebody else to kill us or you're going to go down i've probably done that before it's like when i was when i was honey it's like every man for himself yeah i'm not i've raised people i mean i also backed out of races yeah i felt it just felt too weird and i'm like i'm not going to do this i because i remember here's how much i wanted to protect my in that same logging country i would go out and the road would end maybe I don't want to drive out to the logging unit because that's going to spook all the deer especially in the headlights before it's you know light and you're out there so I'd park like half a mile back and walk out there but I didn't want anybody else driving out there so I'd park in the middle of the road sideways leave my truck there it's like I'm not saying you can't come out there but you're not driving people people lost their shit I mean I would hear gunshots going off of my truck then I'm like fuck are they shooting my truck you know you know or are they gonna shoot me when it so i did a lot of this crazy stuff i mean i'm very competitive um i did want to also clarify one point because you said animals on 15 000 acres you know wouldn't be reacting they wouldn't know they wouldn't know they were in a fence type thing i because i've i've seen people say crazy shit about our hunting but you're the bulls you kill are not in a fence no it's never been in a fence no always been Fair Chase.

[2021] I've even said, oh, these bulls are on beta blockers.

[2022] Some crazy bullshit.

[2023] Beta blockers?

[2024] Beta blockers?

[2025] So.

[2026] On bulls?

[2027] To limit their adrenaline spike?

[2028] I don't even know what the hell would do.

[2029] So beta blockers, like athletes can't use them.

[2030] And there's certain sports.

[2031] Yeah, it kills your adrenaline spike.

[2032] So people say crazy shit.

[2033] I don't want them turning in that you were validating a big high -fenced area.

[2034] No, I've never done that.

[2035] No, so the bulls, you're hunting.

[2036] are wild fair chase there's predators around there's lions there's bears there's I mean this is wild elk so yeah I just want to make that clear because people say they say crazy shit maybe even 15 ,000 acres is not a good example so like let's say like the four six ranch that my friend Taylor Sheridan owns it's 270 ,000 acres wow yeah really yeah yeah he hasn't fenced that no god that would be a lot of money in a few know what I'm saying but even if he is But even if he did, you know, that's like, the fuck.

[2037] Yeah.

[2038] Like, that's where they live.

[2039] You just put a fence to keep other people from going in.

[2040] You're really not, you're not stopped.

[2041] That's like natural habitat.

[2042] Yeah, I mean, the whole carmings fenced in by oceans.

[2043] Yeah.

[2044] You could look at it that way.

[2045] I've never done it.

[2046] I've never done it.

[2047] And I've had, like, occasion to debate people about it.

[2048] But it's not like, maybe I used to be a little friskier about arguing about all the finer points, but it's just it's I haven't done it I don't really think about it you know what I mean it's not the same thing you know like when I talk to guys who hunt out here and most of them are pretty honest about it the way they do it like the hunt over feeders these are not people that hunt a lot they don't practice a lot but when they get a chance it's essentially like a kind of harvesting animals it's almost like a type of farming because you're if you're hunting over a feeder and like they'll put you in a tree stand and say all right the feeder goes off at five o 'clock and I'm like, what?

[2049] No, it's a collision of animal, it's a collision of hunting in animal husbandry where you're using the sort of harvest tactics of hunting, but you're employing a lot of the principles of animal husbandry.

[2050] Yeah, it's not the same thing.

[2051] It's not going into the mountains like we do.

[2052] Like we're hunting in Utah or you're going to Colorado.

[2053] You're going in the mountains.

[2054] Yeah, well.

[2055] There are wild animals.

[2056] They're unfenced.

[2057] And to that point, it's not guaranteed.

[2058] Not at all.

[2059] When we were there this last season, it's a great property.

[2060] I mean, nobody could argue that it's incredible elk hunting.

[2061] But there was hunters the week we were there who didn't kill.

[2062] The week after we were there, seven guys did not kill.

[2063] Well, the week we were there, only three did.

[2064] So, only three guys killed a bow.

[2065] People make it sound like it's just shooting fish in a barrel and guaranteed 100%.

[2066] It's like, how many hunters were there the week we were there?

[2067] I'm not sure.

[2068] there was there had to be 30 I don't know it's a big piece of property and it's fucking hard man and you got to be in shape yeah you got to be in miles 10 miles a day 10 miles a day through the mountains the end of the day you're fucking exhausted and you're eating everything you can get in your face you're so tired and then you're getting up in the morning and you're doing it again and the idea that somehow or that's cheating you can think that if you like but if you do it you go there you won't think that you go there you're like oh this is just an amazing opportunity in a beautiful landscape where wild animals live unmolested you know there's still lions there oh the one that we saw yeah that was the first time i never saw a full grown big ass cat in the wild it's like wow i got to watch one miss a deer down in mexico this year it was really cool oh wow you know watched him come in it was a doe she was traveling i watched him coming ahead of and he kept looking down and trying to guess her trajectory and got and laid down and then missed her did he go after her and missed her like you couldn't I mean when it was like a ball of fur dude and she comes squirt well I'm sad I'm kind of simplifying it where there was a forkie I didn't know about and she got up right next to this forkie and then the lion blew out and kind of first tried to roll that forkie and then sort of sprang out of that and tried to get the dough but it was like he was he was flock shooting oh he didn't have a target he probably if he asked him he probably had a target but man they ran like hell wow it was cool to see dude that was the second lion i saw that night yeah oh wow that was a rarity yeah that when i was in colorado this year in the week that i was there i killed a bull buck and a bear in that week i saw four lions hmm so many lions in that country that's a lifetime supply for seeing them without dogs.

[2069] It was insane, but it's, yeah, I was going to say, that story reminded me of, you said the flock shooting.

[2070] I remember this old guy who'd come back to hunting cap when I first started.

[2071] He was like, you see anything?

[2072] He's like, yeah, yeah.

[2073] So I got on a good herd.

[2074] I said, did you get a shot?

[2075] He's like, yeah, yeah, what happened?

[2076] He's like, well, I shot over some and I shot under some.

[2077] I just never forget.

[2078] I can just envision that there's a herd and trying to get an arrow in one of them.

[2079] But, yeah, it's...

[2080] You imagine being a Native American with fucking handmade bow chasing after those things?

[2081] I bet shit didn't spook 200 yards away back then.

[2082] I bet it, yeah, that's true.

[2083] But, you know, the first, I'm trying to think, man, the first three or so deer I got, I got on when I was a kid, I killed first deer and I was 13.

[2084] The first three or so deer I got, I got all on private property.

[2085] And then I killed, I went into the White River, kind of the, we used to call it the White River swamp.

[2086] But down on national forest land and killed a fawn one October with my bow.

[2087] And you didn't hear people, like, people didn't celebrate public land hunting then.

[2088] It was like you were slumming it.

[2089] So you were there because you couldn't get, no farmer was going to let, you didn't know any farmers.

[2090] You know, if you went out on public land in Michigan and you went to anybody that was on public land and said, hey, do you want to hunt like the farm over there?

[2091] No one is like out of principle by God, I'm staying here.

[2092] They would just, they would go to the farm.

[2093] But when I did get that fawn deer, which I killed over a bait pile in the White River swamp, it felt good, man. Like, you know what I mean?

[2094] Like I was aware of having did this thing that I would have.

[2095] to have and did this thing that I would have regarded as almost like semi -impossible right you know to pull that off I have a deep respect for people that can shoot mature animals on public land that is very hard to do and it's very and I get that you would have a higher sense of pride I totally get it I've gotten a handful I've gotten like four big mielder um nice mielder I've never killed a mielder on private property and I got four good meal there on public property and like that like I can't deny that that sort of means a thing to me yeah you know not that I wouldn't like if someone tomorrow if I drew some tag in some area and some guys like oh hunt my ranch I'd go hunt their ranch all day long but it just has sort of like happens that that's true and I don't look at it and think differently of it the same way all kinds of factors planned it you know I but every year like I've gotten some big coos deer, and I've never, all the coosier I've killed on big private ranches in Mexico, except for Arizona, but gotten nice deer on big private ranches in Mexico and love the experience.

[2096] I like all that.

[2097] I mean, I'm into all that stuff, man. Yeah, I get why people would think a certain way, because it's very similar in a lot of ways to bow hunting versus rifle hunting.

[2098] Yeah, a little bit more problem.

[2099] If you see someone that kills a big bull with a rifle, you're like, yeah, that's a big bull, man. That's awesome.

[2100] if you see some of the kids a big bowl with a bow, you're like, whoa, that's a bigger deal.

[2101] And it feels way different.

[2102] As someone who shot bowls with rifles and shot bowl with a bow and arrow, you cannot compare.

[2103] The way it makes me feel, when I make a perfect 52 -yard shot, and I watch that arrow go into the crease behind the shoulder, and you watch that bowl buck up and you know you got them, you're like, woo!

[2104] It's like, there's nothing like it.

[2105] There's nothing like it.

[2106] There's nothing like.

[2107] I was hunting with Evan Hafer from Black Rifle Coffee this past October.

[2108] We were both El Cunning at this ranch.

[2109] And I shot this bull.

[2110] And it was like on the fifth day of a six -day hunt.

[2111] It was a lot of huffin.

[2112] There was a lot of fucking missed opportunities.

[2113] A lot of getting winded.

[2114] A lot of shit went down.

[2115] But when I finally snuck in and it was a long -ass stalk, it was like it took me an hour and a half to cover.

[2116] about 40 or 50 yards because the elk was bedded and I was barefoot I was just in my socks and I was just slowly creeping slowly creeping and every time he'd move his head I'd stop and I was slowly creeping when I finally released that arrow and it hit that bull and I heard that whack and the bull literally ran 30, 40 yards and piled up the woo that I let out you could have heard it a fucking mile away I see they heard it on the other side of the canyon.

[2117] They were watching with binoculars and they heard, whoa!

[2118] Because it's so different.

[2119] If I shot it with a rifle, I'd still be pumped.

[2120] It's a beautiful bowl.

[2121] It's meat.

[2122] I'm psyched.

[2123] I've got all this food now.

[2124] This is incredible.

[2125] This is what I wanted.

[2126] This is what I was working for.

[2127] But it's harder.

[2128] It's harder to do on public land.

[2129] It's harder to do with a bow.

[2130] There's all these little factors that, like, any accomplishment, there's all these little factors that wind up um you know elevating experience or or some other thing you know and then you get into like where I'm at now in life where for me the high like the most elevated experience is to have to witness my kids do something right to take my kids hunting yeah well Cam always talks about that like his favorite experiences and when he takes people for their first time like you were telling me that the time you took that woman yeah cat yeah she shot that deer and you guys are eating it like is it get any better than this no introduce something to this thing that you love you have deep passion for they get to experience you see them get lit up i mean you've done that so many times yeah i'm sure i want i wanted to take steve on that hunt i think i mentioned that yeah we did text about yeah that was i just i missed out you missed it's you're done that's it but uh no i just especially that one because that's oregon blacktail which i grew up hunting in western oregon so i really love sharing you know the small little logging community the badass loggers there that are tough as hell just that little western oregon vibe i love sharing that but then she also killed a big four by four buck with the eye guard just this old big old buck and it was then we you know of course packed it out as a steep logging unit then we cooked it up the next morning it definitely the highlight i killed quite a few animals this year none better than that that's the highlight i didn't kill it yeah but it was just that experience it's uh uh yeah there's nothing you know in my kids i took truitt the same he killed a buck down there too this year so yeah it's a you know you get to where and i said i was very competitive very tunnel vision it was all about me and that you know with age that changes and then you're like no i want to i want to share this with people yeah so it's uh well if you don't do that how are they going to find out and one of the things that you've talked about so many times steve is the barrier to entry for someone who's like they're thinking about hunting like I thought about it for years my wife used to go crazy because I would be at home watching Spirit of the Wild she's like what the fuck are you watching why you watching Ted Nugent and I'm like I want to figure out I do this someday and then I watch your show I gotta be here Casey plays Fred Bear Yeah well when you The Wackmaster When I first saw your your original show The Wild Within right That was what it was going When I first saw that show I was like Oh I want to talk to that guy And that was before Meat Eater even started And then when you invited me to come hunting with you, I was like, oh, finally, now I can figure this out.

[2131] But if it wasn't for that, having someone like you to show me how to do it and take me out and to have you be my guide, like, fuck, what are the odds?

[2132] I'll see people making, like, young hunters or people just starting to hunt.

[2133] Now I'll see them make the horrible decisions, you know?

[2134] Yeah.

[2135] We're like, oh, I think I'm growing up there in the morning.

[2136] And on one hand, I'll, I'll, uh, I'll feel like bad.

[2137] I'll be like, oh my God, it's a horrible idea.

[2138] On the other hand, I'm like, dude, yes.

[2139] Like, that's all the stuff that I had to do when I was figuring anything out.

[2140] Like, hats off to you, dude.

[2141] Yeah.

[2142] You're going to get up and go, like, you don't know it, but you're getting up early.

[2143] You're going to go try something.

[2144] I recognize it as the dumbest thing you could possibly do.

[2145] But, like, that's how you do it, man. That's how you learn.

[2146] So that barrier to entry, like, some people have the mental fortitude, well, they're just going to take it on.

[2147] Yeah.

[2148] And then some people are going to say it.

[2149] sit and be like, I'm not, you know, I don't have it in me to really figure this hard -ass thing out.

[2150] Well, until you've experienced success, it's very difficult to justify the work.

[2151] And it seems insurmountable.

[2152] And for a lot of people that don't have someone like you or someone like you, taking them out, it's almost insurmountable because there's so many things you have to learn.

[2153] It's not intuitive.

[2154] It's something that you have to figure out through trial and error or you have to read a lot or watch a lot of videos and absorb all that information.

[2155] Yeah, mostly it's, you have to learn it yourself you know because you can read reading helps watching helps talking helps you just got just as you said that's how they learn they get out there they do it themselves and then they're like well that didn't work now what and that's that's how you learn that's what's what's hard about hunting with that barrier to entry is that experience accumulates slow for most people yeah like when i was hunting back home i would get a week for elk that's all so a week a year and that's it, you know, so I had to go out, take photos, try to be out there amongst them, learn body language, learn what they like to do, and that takes years.

[2156] So when somebody comes in late, yeah, they can't shortcut that experience part.

[2157] We were, we were lucky to grow up doing it, and now we're in a position where we can share it.

[2158] But it's tough if you didn't grow up doing it.

[2159] Yeah, there's a few places people will teach you how to do it.

[2160] You know, Jesse Griffith has that school.

[2161] What is it called, New School style?

[2162] What is it again?

[2163] his school, but he has a literal, like, limited edition.

[2164] It's not the new school, but that's in it.

[2165] Yeah, something.

[2166] So he has, Jamie will pull it up, but he, but he has a program where he'll take you, he'll teach you how to shoot, it'll teach you how to hunt, it teaches you how to butcher, teach you how to cook, the whole thing.

[2167] They'll take you through the whole process.

[2168] That's so valuable.

[2169] If there's something that you can do, and especially with a renewable resource like pigs, yeah.

[2170] New school of traditional cook.

[2171] That's right.

[2172] I know, on a matter there's like a somewhat contradictory, yeah, a new school of traditional cooking.

[2173] But that's so valuable where someone can take you through the whole process, and there's not a lot of that available, unfortunately.

[2174] And even if it was available, it would be very difficult to screen applicants to make sure that it's even worth taking your time.

[2175] Because if you got a guy, and, you know, he's 50, 60 pounds overweight and got a bad knee and you want to take him on a mule deer hunt in the mountains, like, we can't really do this.

[2176] Like, you're going to have to lose weight.

[2177] You're going to have to get in shape.

[2178] You're going to have to figure out a way.

[2179] to be able to get to where these animals are.

[2180] Or get into something different.

[2181] This is not an easy task.

[2182] I like the true, like there's an area, and I don't think everyone needs to get there.

[2183] There's an area of expertise or a level of expertise that I think is admirable.

[2184] And it's, you know, you learn how to hunt some particular spot.

[2185] And that's great, right?

[2186] You learn how to hunt some particular spot and that's your hunting spot and you get it really figured out, and that's a wonderful journey, and that's really good.

[2187] I think that getting to the point where you, get that place and thing that you're comfortable at and then you go and be like okay I'm gonna take whatever does I learn there and try to apply it to something totally different and figure that different thing out and get where you're good at these spots and these things but you become good at like deciphering figuring out and being able to move into totally new things and carry that accumulative knowledge into these new spots like that becomes was pretty fun.

[2188] And that's a high, I regard that as being not a, not better, but a high level of expertise.

[2189] Well, there's also variables that maybe some people that are successful in other disciplines don't recognize as they enter into this new world that there's different parameters.

[2190] Like, for instance, if you got someone who's a successful white tail hunter that hunts out of a tree stand, they're really good archer, but they're used to shooting a 65 -pound bow with like a 350 grain arrow and they're used to shooting these animals that are fairly small and then you take them on an elk hunt and you're like hey that's set up with this three blade mechanical with a 60 pound bow and you're shooting a fucking enormous animal with huge bones like you might not even get through the ribs with that thing you might center a rib and that's a wrap like you have to recognize you're dealing with a totally different thing and you're not you can't just be weak you have to be physically strong you have to be capable of making it to you're not going to sit in a tree stand like you've got to change everything about the way you approach it yeah you got very successful with this one aspect of this thing but you've got a whole new thing now you have to apply it to and if you don't you're going to wound animals you're going to have problems or you're going to just not be successful at all I remember the first time I went out with the guy deep dropping for swordfish so I watched the guy catch a couple swordfish in 1300 feet of water and I realized I knew nothing about fishing.

[2191] Do you know what I mean?

[2192] That's so specific.

[2193] Oh, my God, man. Like all the shit you think you know, then you go out there and you're like, you're not going to catch a fish out here.

[2194] You can't do that.

[2195] But nowadays with fishing, you know, Steve, I sent you that thing the other day where the guy had a screen on his phone and there was some sort of a camera attached to his line.

[2196] Oh, that guy.

[2197] Yeah, that was crazy.

[2198] Wild.

[2199] So this guy cast out and he's looking at a screen with like a lid over it to shield the sun on his rod as he's reeling.

[2200] He's seeing the fish coming towards his bait.

[2201] Yeah, not like ice fishing with a camera, but he's like, he has a camera, he's casting and has a camera watching fish interact with his bait while he does a retrieve.

[2202] Yeah.

[2203] I didn't really get that.

[2204] It was cool.

[2205] I've never seen that before.

[2206] I was like, this is great.

[2207] But the things that I sent you, the ice fishing guys, that's nuts, man. They got fucking cameras down there and, like, a fully heated shack where they're watching television.

[2208] Oh, suddenly, my kid don't want an ice fish without the camera.

[2209] Well, it's an added element.

[2210] You see the fish.

[2211] Like, this is so cool.

[2212] You can watch them sneak up to it.

[2213] Yeah.

[2214] You know?

[2215] Yeah, it reminds me there's something new in hunting now, which I don't like.

[2216] but it's at the heat -seeking binoculars.

[2217] I think it's heat -seeking.

[2218] Oh, thermal.

[2219] Thermals.

[2220] Yeah, there's thermals.

[2221] And to me, I don't...

[2222] Yeah, but you can't use it for big game hunting.

[2223] No, it's not...

[2224] There's some states where it's not regulated.

[2225] It's not regulated.

[2226] They don't even mention it.

[2227] No, no, no. You can't...

[2228] But you can't get outside illegal shooting hours.

[2229] No, but to find them.

[2230] Oh, I see what you're saying.

[2231] Are there states where you allowed to find game with thermal?

[2232] I think it's not...

[2233] It's just not disallowed.

[2234] Yeah.

[2235] I got it.

[2236] It's not addressed.

[2237] Well, there's an issue now where they're banning drones that use thermal for recovery.

[2238] But I don't, I don't like.

[2239] Because your scout, the argument is your scout too.

[2240] Of course.

[2241] You could be if you're a piece of shit.

[2242] But like what guys could conceivably do, like in Oregon, as I'm talking about in western Oregon, glassing those big huge logging units and finding deer is an art. I mean, it is hard to pick those things up.

[2243] But if you could just put, you know, and find the thermal register of it.

[2244] Sure.

[2245] Oh, it's right there.

[2246] you know that and that's like a big part of killing a buck i don't like that that needs to be regulated yonis was just hunting in lavia and in lavia they get out in a clear cut mill the day whatever they're going to get out in a clear cut and put a thermal up and be like nope hop back in the car and roll out yeah i don't know and he's like i can't believe you guys could you know i can't believe you guys do that like i can't believe you don't do it yeah right it works stupid yeah i well i was in scotland uh There's stag where we were at.

[2247] I was like, this is amazing.

[2248] And they had a hunting ranch out there.

[2249] And they said, do you want to hunt?

[2250] And I said, do you guys use rifles?

[2251] And he goes, yeah.

[2252] I go, can you use a bow?

[2253] Can I bring a bow?

[2254] And they go, no, we don't allow it in the country.

[2255] And I'm like, what?

[2256] Like, you don't allow it.

[2257] Can you watch me shoot first?

[2258] Got to talk to the governor?

[2259] Let me set up a target at 80 yards and show you.

[2260] Like, this is, I know what I'm doing.

[2261] Like, let me do this.

[2262] You can't.

[2263] Yeah, I think, was it South Africa?

[2264] There was, like, quite a lobbying effort to allow archery equipment.

[2265] Really?

[2266] Wow.

[2267] Yeah, there's some countries over there that didn't have it.

[2268] I don't, I think Ted Nugel was involved in something about having to show the, the, how lethal it was before they would allow it.

[2269] Yeah, it was a lethality concern.

[2270] And I don't know what it was for.

[2271] I don't know if it was for elephant or something like that.

[2272] But isn't that always the case when people just don't know?

[2273] And you think of a bow and arrow.

[2274] You're like, well, that's not as a use a gun, stupid.

[2275] You know, it's so much more effective.

[2276] You know, when I have that conversation with people that are non -hunters, and they're like, why do you use a bow and arrow?

[2277] I go, you're more connected.

[2278] It's quiet.

[2279] It's like there's so many things about it that are just, it's more difficult to do.

[2280] It requires more discipline and concentration.

[2281] It's more rewarding when you do it.

[2282] Isn't a rifle better, though?

[2283] Oh, yeah.

[2284] Why don't, are you trying to get meat?

[2285] Yes.

[2286] Do you support spear hunting?

[2287] Like I have no, I have no, I have zero problem.

[2288] Zero problem with spear hunting.

[2289] I don't think it's going to be a thing to impacts game numbers.

[2290] Impossible.

[2291] I, like, 100 % support it with pigs.

[2292] But I think that when someone does it.

[2293] When I say supported, I mean like, I feel that if you had a regulation, I feel that if someone wanted to say we'd like to open it up that people could hunt with a spear, I would probably generally say, okay, I just, because I don't think that this is going to be a thing that reduces opportunity.

[2294] Well, you know, remember the thing that happened in Canada with Josh Beaumar.

[2295] They banned spear hunting because this one controversial moment where it was totally legal.

[2296] Everything he did was totally legal.

[2297] Yeah.

[2298] And they's just the thing no one realized.

[2299] Because there's things that are legal and they're legal because they're not illegal.

[2300] Right.

[2301] Right.

[2302] That's a good point.

[2303] That's a good point.

[2304] Yeah.

[2305] Yeah.

[2306] I mean, I don't want to hunt with spear, but I get it, you know.

[2307] I always feel like it's a gimmick.

[2308] Like when I see someone hide in a tree and they spear a pig.

[2309] They're showing that it can be done.

[2310] Yeah.

[2311] It's kind of a gimmick.

[2312] I haven't done it.

[2313] I can't picture getting into it by any stretch, but I just don't think it, I think it hits, like, traditional, for sure.

[2314] And then I think it's not like, I don't think it's going to throw off population levels and lead to, like, decreased opportunity.

[2315] No. I don't think anyone's going to be like the spear guys got them all.

[2316] Right.

[2317] They got all the big bulls because they can hide in trees.

[2318] Yeah.

[2319] I mean, even if they wouldn't have made it illegal, who the hell was going to spear hunt a bear besides Josh up there?

[2320] Right.

[2321] It's less, it was, it was just it.

[2322] You need a real psycho.

[2323] It caused such a stir that they had to address it.

[2324] Yeah.

[2325] So it's, but yeah, it wasn't going to have an impact on the population.

[2326] Well, it caused a stir because it was discussed publicly.

[2327] And it was like, it was a social.

[2328] media thing.

[2329] And it gets into this weird area where, you know, some people have a really hard time with people exploiting hunting on social media because they say that you're, you're kind of like bastardizing this beautiful thing and you're making it just like showing things on Instagram, just like all the other things that you show off on Instagram, your private jet or your big house or your fucking yachts and shit.

[2330] Like you're making, you're cheapening this beautiful.

[2331] moment.

[2332] When I was a kid, you had to go down to the local sporting goods store and staple your picture up to the bragboard, man, on the community bragboard.

[2333] And you had to go down there to see what all was happening.

[2334] Well, it's essentially just a limited version of what Instagram is.

[2335] It's a global bragboard.

[2336] Yeah, but that's the thing, too, it's you're not getting people that come into that local sporting goods store that don't understand hunting.

[2337] Yeah.

[2338] No, I think that is a big deal because I think in a big deal in that we need to think about how we're presenting things you know where whatever if you're down at the local sporting if that's only hunters pretty much seeing that just like when you'd write an article like when I wrote for eastman's journal or whatever that was just hunters or if you're an outdoor channel it's just hunter no nobody besides hunters is watching that now everybody's on social media so I think we just need to be very cognizant of what we're putting up there well you do it fantastic job of that and you have a very specific protocol you follow you know where you'll show photos of the hunt then you'll show the meat you'll show harvesting the meat cleaning the meat and then eventually you'll show a photo of the animal that you killed sometimes i don't even do that yeah sometimes i just show the whatever just because the grip and grins for some people and i have you know a lot of people that follow that don't hunt they have a hard time with those pictures yeah and i'm just like I get it.

[2339] Whatever.

[2340] You haven't grown up around this.

[2341] I have.

[2342] To me and people like me, this is part of it.

[2343] But I understand.

[2344] I've never had anybody get mad at me for cooking an elk steak.

[2345] Exactly.

[2346] And it's just not going to happen.

[2347] So it's just like, do we need to put the grip and grin up?

[2348] I mean, is it necessary?

[2349] I don't care if people do it.

[2350] I just want them to think about what they're saying when they put it up, how they do it.

[2351] To me, I lead up to it.

[2352] I show the country, the animals, the, the, the journey.

[2353] Like on this lion hunt, I actually also showed a lion killed a beef calf, didn't eat any of it because if they killed it in the creek, the lion wasn't big enough to drag it out of the creek.

[2354] So just left it and wouldn't kill an elk.

[2355] That's interesting.

[2356] Followed the tracks for three miles and I would see the lion go and was sitting behind a tree.

[2357] All the deer tracks were there.

[2358] So the lion was hunting.

[2359] And I shared all that.

[2360] part of the journey that's all the cool stuff people so i say share things like that and also you can share your kill shot it's great but also share what else stood out from the hunt there's also a problem with hunting tv shows in that you're condensing something that might be seven days of 10 hour days 22 minutes yeah and then speed and then you want to pick that you want to pick the interesting 22 minutes yeah it's like you just it's like you randomly pull out segments out of your 100 hours of footage right Yeah, it's, I think it's, that's been a big benefit to tell more of the journey now that, you know, Steve's on YouTube.

[2361] His videos on YouTube have tons of views.

[2362] So he's able to explain why that's important, what stood out to you.

[2363] It's more intellectual approach to it.

[2364] Whereas you didn't really have time on an outdoor channel show.

[2365] You didn't have time to get into that.

[2366] Some of my favorite shows of yours, a meteor, you're unsuccessful.

[2367] And I love that you have those.

[2368] You know, I remember that one where you're getting real introspective about your, father that's like one of my favorite episodes you ever did and it was just you unsuccessful hunting and it's like yeah that's also a part of it like this is not easy and it's often unsuccessful and i was always you know aunt was always am always bummed to not get something too like i'm trying but we'd be you know back back in the early days we were making 16 shows so you weren't gonna you know if you weren't spent a week busting your ass you didn't get something it wasn't the option wasn't there to ditch it like we were going to make something out of it and in the end it was great glad we did it but uh you know i've never gone in the woods hoping to be unsuccessful right it definitely happens and uh you know but i always wished it was otherwise of course yeah but it's just the the editing it down at 22 minutes it gives people that are on the outside a completely different perspective they think it's so easy well just go I mean how many times you heard that if you're a real man you you know you'd go hunt it with a knife or something like that something stupid you're oh what a coward you're shooting it from a distance with a rifle and in that 22 minutes too there's also sponsor obligations when it's on TV so it's not even 22 minutes of hunting you know you have to have the this tips and tactics brought to you by Rosler right whatever so it's like you get down to the hunt you can't really say why the hunt is important to you almost it's like it doesn't give you time to develop that story so we've it's a big benefit to us with social media now we're not we don't need approval by an editor we don't need the the channel to approve how long this thing is we put it on youtube and then we can tell the story of the hunt in a more honest and relatable fashion hopefully and explain why it's difficult and people understand it what kind of restrictions is YouTube put on hunting videos now because I know that there You can push it a little far and get dinged What is it pushing far?

[2369] The kill shot?

[2370] No, it winds up being No, like blood and skinning shots Any kind of graphic like You know we got The first ding you hit is you hit A demonetization thing right And then you can hit other levels of dings And there's like a little scorecard But oddly doing a we had something like just like some examples of doing a necropsy on something just too graphic organs things like that disassembly that'll get you dinged you can get demonetization I believe there's levels of demonetization you can get around certain firearms issues but the primary thing is just like gore right but even put in in terms of a necropsy, so I'm sure at some level it's like, I'm sure it begins as an AI thing, right, scouring all this footage and finds something that's like bloody and graphic and at some level it gets elevated.

[2371] We've argued and gotten our stuff back, you know, if you can get someone's ear and you can get it tested by a person and gotten it back.

[2372] But that is the primary thing is just, is gore.

[2373] There was talk of them eliminating kill shots.

[2374] I haven't heard that.

[2375] That could be, I haven't heard that.

[2376] I remember, I think that got rescinded, but I think there were some issues.

[2377] Here it goes.

[2378] You can turn on ads for this content, hunting content where there's no depiction of graphic animal injuries or prolonged suffering.

[2379] Hunting videos where the moment of kill or injury is indiscernible.

[2380] And no focal footage of how this dead animal is processed for trophy or food purposes.

[2381] Boy, that's pretty fucking limited.

[2382] Yeah.

[2383] Well, like for me, I had one that was limited in age restriction.

[2384] So people 18 and under couldn't watch it.

[2385] Was it a firearms infraction or no, no, no one would have been firearm?

[2386] Just archery.

[2387] But, and I don't monetize any of my hunting videos because I just don't even want to deal with, oh, you're killing for fucking profit or whatever the hell.

[2388] So I'm like, I don't even, I don't make any money off these.

[2389] You don't turn monetization out?

[2390] Not for hunting.

[2391] I do it for my lift run shoot and my podcast.

[2392] Yeah.

[2393] But for just the hunting, I'm not mad.

[2394] That's a good way to.

[2395] But I still got that age restriction because of, they said the gore.

[2396] Then there was an outfit that, what's his name, Jason, I think Sportsman's Alliance, maybe.

[2397] But anyway, they wrote, they appealed it for me. They got it in touch with YouTube and appealed their decision and got it overturned.

[2398] So they, for people like me, they, or for like us, creators.

[2399] they will go to go to bat for us and yeah oftentimes i've seen cases i remember our senator and uh our our senator in montana got uh dinged on one of the social media platforms for having like a picture of him and his wife with a pronghorn yeah and his account got taken down and the minute humans became aware of this or like the right humans became aware of this they did like a very quick reversal yeah so the way the way we'll generally look at it with putting up video content is we'll try to avoid we'll try to avoid demonetization being demonetization meaning you cross some line right but i but the thing is i haven't found it to be like it's not like an owner's process i feel that it's pretty um if you if you compare it to other channels of distribution i have not found youtube to be like dramatically over restrictive especially compared to any kind of um especially compared to any kind of like network parameter right no they're not they're not they might be bad but they're not bad compared to anybody else no and that one that was jason quick who helped me with that i just remembered his last name but that one i showed i killed this bull on san carlos and i think i showed the lungs or where the arrow hit you know and that's that's what got it and it wasn't once i I appealed it myself.

[2400] They said, no, we're upholding the restriction.

[2401] And then they did get it overturned.

[2402] It took, so it took a couple times, but still is reasonable.

[2403] And they took, they had age restrictions on other ones I didn't even know about, but I didn't notice that the viewership was down.

[2404] And so that they lifted all those.

[2405] It's kind of a weird situation where although there are many, many video platforms, YouTube essentially has an overwhelming majority of people into the point where it's almost a monopoly, you know, and if you have things like that that are very valuable to people, like, I want to see where the arrow hits.

[2406] Yeah.

[2407] I like when I see blood pouring out of an animal because I know that that's a lethal shot.

[2408] That's what you want.

[2409] Like, it might be graphic to some people, but if I, I see a rage hit behind the shoulder on a deer and I see that blood squirting out as soon as you want.

[2410] the deer starts moving.

[2411] I'm like, that guy got that deer.

[2412] That's a dead deer.

[2413] That's what you want.

[2414] You know, it doesn't seem, it doesn't seem awful to me. It seems better because that's a lethal shot.

[2415] That's a successful hunt.

[2416] That's what you're trying to do.

[2417] To pretend that's not what you're trying to do, boy, that seems insane.

[2418] And if you're doing it only to protect the ignorant, that seems insane too.

[2419] It's like you don't have to watch those videos.

[2420] And if you're going to allow those videos on the platform, you should allow those videos to be a realistic depiction of what everybody's trying to do, which is a lethal shot on an animal.

[2421] And if you hit a lethal shot on an animal and you hit it in the vitals and you use a strong arrow with a great broadhead, you're going to get blood squirting out of it because that's what you want.

[2422] The last thing you want to see is an arrow hit an animal and no blood comes out.

[2423] Yeah.

[2424] I mean, and that's okay.

[2425] Well, and meanwhile, they show people getting killed, I think, on YouTube, don't they?

[2426] I do not know.

[2427] But they showed them being...

[2428] They pulled those, I think.

[2429] Being injured.

[2430] Yeah, well, you see it on the war videos, you see it blocked out or obscured.

[2431] Yeah.

[2432] Some of the hunting networks used to have self -imposed restrictions that they felt were cleaning up hunting for the sake of non -hunting.

[2433] looking in and it was counterproductive because they would have a restriction that they didn't want to see raw meat they didn't want to see bare bone and so it created this sense of like when I say counterproductive if you were looking in and on it watching it there was no acknowledgement of what happens to it later which created the sense that maybe nothing right you know and then and then that that eventually corrected itself And they're like, oh, some level of gore, right?

[2434] In parentheses, he's like, some level of gore is helpful in explaining the process.

[2435] But the instinct early on, the instinct was to not have any of that.

[2436] Right.

[2437] And people would get dinged for raw meat.

[2438] They'd get dinged for, like, a bone sticking out of a backpack.

[2439] One of the things that I really appreciated about your shows, particularly early on, is that you have a lot of segments where you cook the meat.

[2440] And there's a lot of shows where they don't cook the meat.

[2441] Yeah.

[2442] That was our trademarked.

[2443] It's a big difference.

[2444] Big difference.

[2445] I mean, it's much more enjoyable.

[2446] Like, one of my favorite videos is you and you shot that black pair of the blueberries.

[2447] Sure, yeah.

[2448] And you're watching, like, you're explaining, like, look how purple this fat is because this thing's just been gorging on blueberries.

[2449] Then you're cooking it and eating it.

[2450] Like, that to me is like, that's a full range of what the experience of hunting is about.

[2451] I wish more people would do that.

[2452] I find out looking back on those days, it's like I sometimes look back and it'd be like, it was just shocking that that was.

[2453] It's shocking that that wasn't out there more at the time.

[2454] It was like it's something like so simple and elemental.

[2455] And it was just surprised people.

[2456] It was almost non -existent.

[2457] Yeah, surprised people.

[2458] On those outdoor channel shows, you very, very rarely saw someone cooking the animal that they killed.

[2459] It was, I think it was kind of assumed just because of how we grew up.

[2460] And in magazines, they never talked about that.

[2461] You never read an article where they talked about how they processed.

[2462] the meat or ate it that have a recipe a finished yeah finished like a recipe with with shit you take out of the freezer but there was an ignored part there was right the old fred bear videos you know he fred bear is making videos way before we ever started hunting the meat was never shown so it was just kind of like that's just how we could learn then steve a brilliant idea meat eater yeah i mean meat eater right there you got the fork you got the forks on on the freaking moose.

[2463] So it's like that was the best decision ever because it addresses that part of it, which was kind of like it's impressive that you foresaw what might be a challenge for us, you know, explaining hunting.

[2464] So that was just like brilliant to come up with that.

[2465] But to our defense, that was never a thing.

[2466] We just knew, I mean, I read this old article, my first deer, I killed that spike that I said when I was 15.

[2467] I wrote this little thing for the school newspaper and said I got 37 pounds of hamburger from it.

[2468] And I don't know why, because I don't know why I said that.

[2469] That's a great school newspaper entry.

[2470] Yeah, yeah, because nobody ever talked about it.

[2471] But it was like...

[2472] That's hilarious.

[2473] Yeah, it was funny.

[2474] I said something like, my mom was happy because we got 37 pounds.

[2475] It's probably all we got off that deer.

[2476] It was pretty small.

[2477] Yeah.

[2478] But, yeah, so I mean, it's a, yeah, it has changed.

[2479] It certainly opens people's eyes up that are non -hunters.

[2480] And it's, I think it's a very valuable addition to this whole video depiction of what hunting is all about.

[2481] You know, and also, you're a really good cook, so you'd get, like, really, like, involved to make some pretty cool recipes.

[2482] And, you know, you cook for your staff and you've got episodes like that where you cooked all these different preparations of different wild game.

[2483] It's cool.

[2484] Yeah.

[2485] It adds to it.

[2486] No, I think you appreciate it.

[2487] Well, listen, let's wrap it up.

[2488] let's bring this bad boy home meat eaters available it's essentially only on lawn now right yeah well we have you know like the fast channels but yeah you can find everything we do on YouTube so I just want to say to me huge honor you guys are the voices of hunting it's like you're the voice of hunting bitch shut the fuck out no you guys are so well versed in how to discuss it how to explain it as are you it's like I am honored to be here and have a podcast with Steve We've done a lot of podcasts, but to have all three of us here, it means a lot to me. So thank you.

[2489] That's great.

[2490] It means a lot to me. You two are the main reason why I got into hunting, 100%.

[2491] And without you taking me out to shoot that one mule deer that sits proudly on that table, it's changed my life.

[2492] Thanks, man. Both of you do.

[2493] Appreciate you.

[2494] Love you, too.

[2495] All right.

[2496] Bye, everybody.