Maureen Dunne (on neurodiversity)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Mrs. Rathers.

[2] Hi there.

[3] Hi, how are you?

[4] I'm good.

[5] I'm sleepy.

[6] Yeah, you just had a couple big yawns.

[7] Yeah, I did.

[8] Your yawns betrayed your energy level.

[9] I know.

[10] I was up pretty late watching makeup videos.

[11] Okay.

[12] Okay.

[13] Any good tips you want to pass on to the listeners?

[14] Oh, so many.

[15] I bought so many products.

[16] Oh, you did?

[17] Okay, you really went wild.

[18] Yeah, I did.

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[20] You got that credit card out and let it rip.

[21] Apple Pay.

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[23] Sponsor.

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[25] Today we have Dr. Marine Dunn on, and she is a cognitive scientist, a neurodiversity expert, a global keynote speaker, a board director, and business leader.

[26] She also, which we'll talk about, is she was the first road scholar out of community college.

[27] Really cool.

[28] She has a new book out now called The Neurodiversity Edge, the Essential Guide to Embracing Autism, ADHD, Dyslexia, and other neurological.

[29] differences for any organization.

[30] This was a very, very informative interview that ended up carrying into a bunch of other stuff we've done since.

[31] Yeah, this is unlike any of the ones we've had.

[32] I feel like we learned a lot.

[33] Yeah.

[34] It's good.

[35] Please enjoy Dr. Maureen Dunn.

[36] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and add free right now.

[37] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[38] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your He's an object spread.

[39] Hi there.

[40] How are you?

[41] Jimmy said he totally remembers that story, but he can't remember what actor it was, but he's going to find out from Molly.

[42] Oh, that's great.

[43] Maureen, do you want to hear a crazy story that has nothing to do with this interview?

[44] Absolutely.

[45] There is some legendary actress, or in search of who, who had a housekeeper for like 30 years.

[46] The housekeeper was saving all of her money, and the housekeeper had been.

[47] built a replica of the actress's house in Mexico where she was from.

[48] She ultimately retired, moved to the house that was a replica, and then the actress became insolvent.

[49] And she ended up moving down to Mexico and living in the house with her former housekeeper.

[50] We just got confirmation that that's a story.

[51] I can't wait to find out.

[52] We haven't found out quite yet who the person is.

[53] Did Salma Hayek tell us the story?

[54] Is she connected somehow?

[55] I feel like she's connected, but maybe that's just.

[56] I wanted to be a movie.

[57] I mean, what?

[58] Sounds like a movie, right?

[59] Yeah, I want to see the whole thing play out.

[60] Yeah.

[61] Okay, so how long are you in town?

[62] Until tomorrow.

[63] When did you get here?

[64] Wednesday.

[65] I had a couple other interviews.

[66] Okay.

[67] Do you like it out here?

[68] Absolutely.

[69] Yeah, I was just telling.

[70] No, I do.

[71] I lived in California for 10 years.

[72] Where?

[73] All over.

[74] For a while I was in San Diego and Del Mar. And then I was doing work in Central Valley of all places.

[75] Something to do with agriculture?

[76] No. This goes back over 10 years where there was such little expertise in neurodiversity, and I was recruited to be a resource.

[77] So I was doing a lot of work with Easterseals and other organizations.

[78] And so I was responsible for our 10 counties from Monterey.

[79] Oh, wow.

[80] To Baker's Field.

[81] I ended up having to spend a lot more of my time than I was anticipating in Fresno.

[82] And then after that, we were in San Francisco in Palo Alto for many years until a certain day in November 2016 when we were just talking about it before he came in, completely changed my life.

[83] The same day Trump got elected, which no one anticipated, at least people in California, found out I was having triplets.

[84] So those two pieces of information.

[85] Friplet.

[86] Now, is this an inappropriate question?

[87] Please tell me. When I find out someone's having triplets, my very first curiosity is like through in vitro or is this something that happened just on its own?

[88] And is that an invasive question?

[89] For most people, yes.

[90] It is, yeah, okay.

[91] But in my case, two out of the three are identical.

[92] I thought I was having one.

[93] I mean, I'm small, right?

[94] So I'm already like, okay, you're having twins.

[95] There's two, fraternal twins.

[96] And then I honestly thought the doctor was joking.

[97] He's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, there's a third heartbeat.

[98] No, no, no. Yeah, yeah.

[99] And I was like, no, no, no. Wow.

[100] So I never even knew anyone that had triplets.

[101] Right.

[102] I guess that's why I'm immediately curious because I obviously knew a bunch of twins growing up, I've dated a couple different twins, they're running the male twins.

[103] At this point, now you're getting into some rare territory.

[104] Well, especially when you have the identicals because, you know, you can't predict that at all.

[105] Yeah, that's an egg splitting in half.

[106] Correct.

[107] Yeah.

[108] But then another egg also.

[109] But then I also have, yeah, but I wish my son.

[110] We were happy that the third triplet was a different gender.

[111] That is helpful, right?

[112] Yeah, because we already see, like, even now, my son feels left out, you know, sometimes.

[113] Like, they're best friends, but the same time, the two, they're just inseparable, right?

[114] Right.

[115] So can you imagine another girl that just, you know, yeah.

[116] It would have killed her.

[117] That would have been sad, yeah.

[118] That was my first thought when you said two are identical.

[119] We have two children.

[120] And when it was talked about it having a third, I'm like, absolutely not.

[121] Two of them will ruin the middle one.

[122] That's just how it works.

[123] Not planning on three.

[124] We thought we were having one and then maybe like a second later if we were lucky.

[125] And then it's like, wow.

[126] We had some struggles that at first night.

[127] He was so prepared to be told like it didn't work out at all, right?

[128] Right.

[129] And it was like, wow.

[130] Triplets?

[131] What's like, are you serious?

[132] Worked out 300%.

[133] They were born really early, 28 weeks.

[134] Which is normal?

[135] Things actually went pretty well up until the day they were born.

[136] You hope for like 32, 33 weeks.

[137] All triples are most likely going to be born early.

[138] Yeah.

[139] But 28 weeks is early.

[140] They were about two pounds each.

[141] So they spent three months in the NICU.

[142] Oh, that's so hard.

[143] That was tough.

[144] But they're doing great.

[145] You've been through one of the most unique experiences of anyone we've ever interviewed, really.

[146] because I only have the experience of one arrives and you're like, oh my God, I hope I can take care of this one thing and give all my attention to this one thing.

[147] I can't even imagine holding three and going like, I'm going to do my best.

[148] It's scary.

[149] Yeah, and it was interesting because it was hard to even get people to help us.

[150] By the time they came home from the hospital, they were still only five pounds each, and they still seemed really fragile, right?

[151] My husband and I were just a great team.

[152] And were you on your own in the Bay Area?

[153] So I lost both my parents relatively young.

[154] And then my husband and I are both neurodivergent, too, yet we have tripless.

[155] Oh, wow.

[156] So it's like, it's a super complicated, but hopefully inspiring story.

[157] I hope for other people out there.

[158] But we were in the Bay Area at the time.

[159] We made this decision then to move back to where I grew up.

[160] Not that we would have a lot of necessarily help, but the kids kind of get to know their cousins.

[161] Also, you can have a backyard to dump them in and let them run wild and feral.

[162] Yeah.

[163] Well, you know, yeah, but what I guess I didn't anticipate in making that decision, having lost both my parents and then going back to the home, you know, somewhere where I never, you know, really anticipated moving back to you, right?

[164] Right.

[165] And we just, my husband, I ended up being in a situation where we really could work from anywhere.

[166] We had a lot of relationships globally.

[167] And after both my parents had died, I put everything into a storage unit.

[168] And then I started going through all that stuff.

[169] So you're processing all this sheet.

[170] Yeah.

[171] And then these little babies, too.

[172] Right.

[173] And then, like, going to places where my parents, it was very weird because of grief and loss from an early age.

[174] There were certain memories just weren't as accessible to me, right?

[175] But then being back there with my own kids, all these memories started coming back.

[176] Yeah, because I'll say also just the act of having kids forces you to remember your childhood in a weird way.

[177] For me, at least.

[178] You're watching them go through this stuff and then you just inevitably start remembering where you were at when this happened or what environment you were in.

[179] And you kind of use yourself as a comp, I guess, as you're going through this.

[180] And how are you parented and what did your parents do and what worked and what didn't you like?

[181] Right.

[182] Yeah, so it already forces you back a little bit and then to be physically where you were at, too.

[183] It's been an interesting experience.

[184] All right.

[185] So can I ask you a very frank question with tons of love?

[186] I don't know that you're neurodivergent and I don't know which variety.

[187] And I want to make sure I'm as helpful as humanly possible.

[188] I have a good friend who's autistic.

[189] And I know how to be very explicit.

[190] So I don't know what version you have.

[191] I would love to know if there's anything I can do that is helpful.

[192] Okay.

[193] Yeah.

[194] Part of what's exciting me to be here is to talk about the complexity and nuance in which neurodivergencies can manifest themselves.

[195] So I'll start out by saying that when I tell people I'm neurodivergent, people that know me really well.

[196] If I don't say the type, most people would assume I'm dyslexic, but I'm not.

[197] So this is what's really interesting is that a lot of how I present ends up being a dyslexic profile, but I'm actually hyperlexic.

[198] There's a couple different.

[199] So I'll get into the complexity there.

[200] But I started reading from a really young age.

[201] I was reading full books by the time I was three.

[202] In college, I was reading 10 books a day, you know, but I was doing it in this way that was not typical.

[203] You can't read two pages with either eye.

[204] Can you?

[205] I have seen a doc about people that can do that.

[206] This is me self -reflecting rather than a scientific theory, but I've realized that what I do is somehow my brain, basically, the whole phonological loop, how most people read.

[207] It's disrupted.

[208] or I'm not using that part of my brain, and I'm abstracting meeting just from pattern abstraction with my eyes.

[209] So like a full snapshot of it at once.

[210] I can abstract the meeting.

[211] So it's like I don't sound out every word.

[212] So I can get through a book in like half an hour.

[213] Wow.

[214] And then like get a mind map out.

[215] Now, that doesn't work really well.

[216] If I really want to enjoy like a piece of fiction.

[217] Well, my immediate question was going to be.

[218] So I'm the opposite, right?

[219] I'm dyslexic.

[220] But I find that the upside of it is I have insane retention.

[221] I seem to have better retention than the status quo.

[222] I seem to be over -indexing.

[223] So I'm wondering, is the reverse true for you?

[224] So if you're taking on so much at such a speed, do you feel like you pay a price with retention?

[225] Where I pay a price, this is why I push myself not to do it for fiction.

[226] It's more like when I was doing my PhD and I was doing another master's at the same time and doing very interdisciplinary work.

[227] And I was just trying to get information.

[228] It's helpful if you're just abstracting information.

[229] But it's really not enjoyable if you're trying to like.

[230] get lost.

[231] Flowery language.

[232] Yeah, yeah.

[233] Right.

[234] So, but I think the interesting price, and this is where I come across as dyslexic, is that I was reading so early that I think my brain is so wired in an orthographic sense that sometimes I mispronounce words that I read before I heard them or if I haven't heard them, you know?

[235] Yeah.

[236] And so with dyslexia, obviously, there's a connection with the phonological loop.

[237] There's some challenges there.

[238] Explain the phonological loop because I don't know.

[239] There's a verbal working memory.

[240] So I'm a cognitive scientist by training.

[241] So that's for my PhDs.

[242] And so that also, I guess, has helped me think a lot about these types of things.

[243] And generally speaking, phonological awareness is really important to reading.

[244] There's inner speech going on.

[245] It's how you sound out words and pronounce them correctly.

[246] And so it kind of factors into how the brain works with reading and spelling.

[247] And so for me, just because I, you know, this is my sort of theory of myself.

[248] Yeah, you're juggling two things.

[249] You have yourself narrative and then you have your self -narrative.

[250] And then you have your your work as a cognitive researcher, right?

[251] So you know these aren't always in accord and they wouldn't make for a good study or a published work, but alas, you're also a person who has a story about themselves.

[252] Yeah, for sure, you know, just thinking about it, I realize I'm increasingly becoming more conscious of it at certain points in my life.

[253] I maybe would have said like preface rather than preface, right?

[254] Or something like that, this orthographic that's so strong.

[255] That's where your dominant language is.

[256] Yeah.

[257] And so I'm bypassing this phonological loop.

[258] And so it's like my eyes are abstracting meaning.

[259] So especially for things that I've never heard before, you know, it doesn't seem to happen for things I've heard first auditorily and hadn't read.

[260] An easy analogy, correct me if I'm wrong, would be like, I think a lot of people can read a foreign language and even write a foreign language, but they can't speak a foreign language.

[261] Or they're strong at the reading and writing of the foreign language.

[262] But the verbal aspect, there are six deviations below that.

[263] Right.

[264] That's just sort of the surface.

[265] What I'm hoping to convey to in this interview is how so many neurodivergent, there's a lot of people out there that don't fit one box really neatly and are looking for their tribe.

[266] It's complicated.

[267] And for me, I knew I was hyperlexic as a child, but then I actually excelled through elementary school.

[268] I was lucky that I was in an elementary school where people that did well in school were actually popular.

[269] It was kind of an unusual situation.

[270] But then when I was in high school, I was at a public high school, there was 4 ,000 students, and I really, really struggled in high school.

[271] Like, I really struggled to fit in socially, and I started to become much, much more aware of, like, how spiking my profile was.

[272] Clearly, at that time, you had an explanation, right?

[273] One of the more fascinating examples of this I ever heard is that book, The Big Short, was based on an article in Vanity Fair, and a profile of the guy who had been smart enough to bet against all of these mortgage -backed securities.

[274] And he had a glass eye.

[275] And so his whole life, he explained his.

[276] his social, in quotes, awkwardness by having this glass eye.

[277] And then he had a child who was struggling in school, went through a barrage of tests, and was diagnosed as autistic.

[278] And the father said that he's not autistic.

[279] Well, here's the test.

[280] You tell me how he would answer to these and see if it's right.

[281] He himself took the test and went, oh my God, I am autistic.

[282] This whole story about my glass eye, it wasn't the glass eye.

[283] It was autism.

[284] You'll fill in the blank, right?

[285] Oh, absolutely.

[286] That's just how our brains work.

[287] And for me, It was extra complicated because my mom was dying for breast cancer.

[288] And so essentially what happened in high school anyway, I wasn't told of any particular diagnosis, but I was struggling.

[289] You know, I had a lot of sensory sensitivities, especially during lunch hour.

[290] That was an absolute torture for me. Absolute torture.

[291] The auditory overwhelmed.

[292] The only place I could go without a hall pass was the bathroom, right?

[293] I remember in high school, escaping to the bathroom.

[294] Oh, Maureen, I want to hug.

[295] Oh, no. And I hate that.

[296] It's really complicated, though, is we had such a short period of time where we could have our lunch.

[297] And so some high school counselor caught me throwing out my lunch, and she got it completely wrong.

[298] So then she had in her mind I had an eating disorder, which I totally didn't, right?

[299] I didn't even think about that kind of thing.

[300] And so then she calls up my parents and tries to hospitalize me for an eating disorder, which I didn't have.

[301] Right.

[302] So my mom, she knew I didn't have anything disorder.

[303] And so suddenly I'm being called out of class for doctor appointments.

[304] that weren't really doctor appointments.

[305] And she'd pick me up and we'd go out to lunch together.

[306] She'd give you a break.

[307] And so that made it so much harder than to lose her so young because I felt like she knew me better than I knew myself.

[308] And then I was bullied in high school.

[309] I had so many issues.

[310] And then I ended up graduating early and going to community college.

[311] This is why you're a spokesperson for community college.

[312] Yeah, absolutely.

[313] Only community college that became a Rhodes Scholar.

[314] Yeah, yeah.

[315] That's cool.

[316] Oh, I love that.

[317] Or the first, yeah.

[318] Yeah.

[319] I think there's maybe one or two more after me. But yeah, I was the first.

[320] And you got it from community college or just that was part of your journey?

[321] Yeah, it was part of my journey.

[322] So I graduated high school early.

[323] How early?

[324] I was a junior.

[325] So like 16 and a half.

[326] And then I'm an elected official now.

[327] So I'm one of the few openly neurodivergent elected officials too around the country.

[328] So I was board chair and I'm service of trustee at the same college I got my start at.

[329] But yeah, I graduated high school early and then was at community college and then transferred to University of Chicago.

[330] I had done so many credits at community college that I was in like a joint bachelor's master's program at University of Chicago.

[331] It was just incredibly unusual to have that much of your undergraduate education be accounted by community college and be competing with people that spent four years at Harvard.

[332] So a good part of my undergraduate education that they had evaluate me on was from community college.

[333] Right.

[334] Okay, but really quick back to being in the bathroom during lunch break.

[335] Did you have a story that made sense to you?

[336] Was there something that you identified as like, well, this is the issue?

[337] What was interesting was most of my life I was just identified as being gifted.

[338] I was a penis competing at age four and just doing so many things that were sort of abnormal.

[339] I think it was just a very confusing time for me in high school because I always excelled.

[340] You had been different.

[341] I knew I was different.

[342] It was always a positive thing.

[343] It was always a positive thing, and then I'm in this environment where my profile was just so much more spiky than it had been.

[344] He's even started to affect me academically, which had never happened before.

[345] I was just confused.

[346] I didn't have a full explanation of what was going on.

[347] And then when I was in my 20s, I was diagnosed with ADHD, but I knew that was definitely not the full explanation.

[348] Yeah.

[349] My husband's ADHD, and he's textbook ADHD, and I'm not like him.

[350] But there's some things that make sense.

[351] I was pretty impulsive as a teenager, too.

[352] I did so much humanitarian work.

[353] I would get on planes, go to places like Zimbabwe.

[354] It was a lot more impulsive than I am now.

[355] But going through this process when I moved back and digging through all this stuff in storage, and I realized that I fit in this, what we'd call ADHD, you know, sort of these intersections of ADHD and autism.

[356] I think this is important.

[357] We just had Lisa DeMoron, who's a clinical psychologist, and we spent a lot of time talking about how kind of arbitrary all of the labels are on the DSM, right?

[358] that it's very tempting to think that these are cut and dry conditions, like type one diabetic or something.

[359] But in fact, it's just this broad spectrum of human behavior that we do our best to say it's this.

[360] And obviously it applies here with all of this neurodivergence, right?

[361] Yeah.

[362] Human beings are incredibly complex.

[363] And, you know, part of why I focus my expertise and studies in this area, I think there's so much we still don't know, right?

[364] I think we're in the infancy of understanding cognitive science and neuroscience.

[365] Is it almost a waste of time to be trying to delineate the difference between all the little things?

[366] I think it's part of the path to progress.

[367] For a long time, I kind of felt like I'm not really sure where I fit in here.

[368] I don't really fit in anywhere because I'm like at the intersections of these boxes, right?

[369] Yeah.

[370] And then one of the strongest neurodivergencies I think that come into play now for me is conceptual synthesisia.

[371] Oh, we were just.

[372] Well, we were saying synesthesia.

[373] Yeah.

[374] That's different.

[375] Is that different?

[376] Well, no, no, no, no. There's 80 plus types of different synesthesia, and I actually have two different types.

[377] And there's over -representative in the arts and musicians.

[378] And there's also some Nobel Prize winners.

[379] So the two types that I have that I think have really been a huge asset.

[380] And to me, neurodiversity is a huge asset.

[381] It shouldn't be seen as a trade -off.

[382] And that was a big part of my book.

[383] There needs to be a paradigm shift.

[384] We need to think about this differently.

[385] But for me, having started out my childhood as a musician, I think what helped me. So I have one of the more common types of synthesisias where sounds and music is translated into, like, colors.

[386] Literally before you got here, we're doing a fact check when we were talking about the exact thing, yeah.

[387] That's so crazy.

[388] That Farrell has it and.

[389] Yeah.

[390] Oh, yeah.

[391] Toriamos.

[392] You know, lots is common to musicians, especially in artists, which I think maybe even more strong for me now is just something called conceptual synthesisia where I experience ideas in a way that is translated as shapes.

[393] Everyone thinks everyone else thinks like them, right?

[394] So that one is less known, even like with my background.

[395] That was not as much research on that.

[396] So it took me a while to realize how important that has been to my success in a way.

[397] I'm what you'd call a projector with conceptual synthesis where it's almost like being surrounded by whiteboards and being able to put different abstract concepts in space and then combine those concepts, have them all in space around me and then, you know, organize those.

[398] organize those.

[399] And even when I was writing my book, I found that was this huge asset.

[400] I probably was driving my publisher nuts because I reorganized things a bunch of times.

[401] But in my mind, like I could put these concepts in space, combine ideas.

[402] Take the pieces and just move them about and combine them.

[403] So when you were at University of Chicago doing the BA and the master's, what was your focus at that point academically?

[404] Was it cognitive science already?

[405] Yeah.

[406] So I was in this joint BA, MA, and my bachelor's, I had officially met the requirements for psychology and sociology, but also did a lot of philosophy.

[407] And then my master's was in the cognitive sciences.

[408] And I had to finish both at the same time.

[409] So I finished both those degrees in three years.

[410] Okay.

[411] And then you go off to London School of Economics or Oxford first?

[412] Oxford, yeah.

[413] So I was named a Rhodes Scholar and I was in Oxford and then this overlapped with.

[414] So my mom had been diagnosed when I was a teenager.

[415] And she actually ended up living longer than what was predicted.

[416] So I was back and forth a lot my first year at Oxford.

[417] But I was doing my PhD, which there they call it a defil.

[418] And then in between my doctorate, I did another degree at London School of Economics.

[419] Are those in close proximity to each other?

[420] Or were you traveling a great distance?

[421] I was living in Oxford.

[422] I mean, would take the train to do my classes.

[423] The British universities are pretty different.

[424] It was interesting to acclimate to how things work there.

[425] Can I just point out tenderly, it's not like you had mastered the high school dynamic.

[426] And then now you go to another country where there's yet an entire, like all the little subtleties.

[427] For sure.

[428] And then going through grief, there's a very different cultural way of dealing with grief.

[429] Very old stiff upper lip.

[430] My path, like most people, wasn't linear.

[431] There was a lot of interruptions.

[432] And it was during that time that I spent a lot of energy doing more creative work.

[433] I was supposed to be working on my PhD, but I did end up spending a lot of time in my bathtub, writing fiction.

[434] and music, and I think that made me just a much more self -aware person doing meditate, you know.

[435] Yeah, stuff that's more self -exploratory.

[436] Yeah, and then also just coming to terms with things my mom told me, you know, when she was, like, I suspected it, but I didn't really know.

[437] I was nerd diversion until she was dying.

[438] And after I was a Rhodes Scholar, then she tells me, like, hey, by the way, you're kind of different.

[439] Oh, my God.

[440] Do you think that would have been useful to hear earlier?

[441] It's like one of those things where you know you're different, but most of my life I was told it was just because I was gifted.

[442] Right.

[443] But I knew that wasn't the full explanation.

[444] Yeah.

[445] That's just my story.

[446] I think it would have been helpful because it was kind of like a shock.

[447] So my friend Ricky, who's been on here to talk about, so I'm not divulging anything he wouldn't want me to.

[448] He got a diagnosis.

[449] And then all of a sudden, he literally had to flick through every page of his past and go like, oh, that time on the porch when the kids told me to do this, that was that.

[450] Oh, the fact that I only wear basketball shorts and I have a reason for it, but it's not that.

[451] Like, you know, really almost his entire life.

[452] has to completely get refiled.

[453] You know, it's like the same data points, but you start to see everything through a different lens.

[454] Yes, it's so wild.

[455] I know so many people in leadership positions, really high -level positions that are nerd -diversion, and part of why I wrote the book, too, was we need to do better at becoming aware of our unconscious biases because there's already a lot of people in leadership positions that are reluctant to disclose.

[456] And the more that there's an appreciation for cognitive differences and realizing our collective future depends on, unique problem solvers.

[457] Yeah.

[458] Well, you say in the book, one in five people are neurodivergent.

[459] So right away, yeah, 20 % of the population, it's definitely significant enough.

[460] This isn't an anomaly.

[461] This is a significant portion of the population.

[462] Absolutely.

[463] I don't know.

[464] You can tell me if this is true.

[465] You're a doctor in this.

[466] Someone told me that they have bee colonies and there are certain bees that are in charge of going out and exploring and looking for new areas that they might have pollen.

[467] They don't work with the normal group.

[468] They're divergent.

[469] And if you give them ADHD medication, those divergent bees stop going out and exploring for it.

[470] And it's just this great little example of, no, no, this isn't an accident that we've evolved this way.

[471] We have this diversity.

[472] It's why we've succeeded as a species for 300 ,000 years, and as a hominid for 6 million.

[473] This is supposed to be, and it's baked in, and we've got to be careful what we're trying to change everyone into.

[474] Yeah, it's really, really interesting.

[475] And I do bring up, I think it was in chapter one, about what I call the divergent bees.

[476] Some researchers, they believe there's 80 % that follow this sort of pre -programmed waggle dance.

[477] The waggle dance is a way in which the bees communicate with each other to find already known sources of pollen.

[478] But then I think what you're referring to is there's 20 % that, I guess if they're not medicated, fly off in these seemingly random directions and aren't following their scripted instructions of what they're supposed to be doing.

[479] But what it turns out is that 20 % is actually responsible for discovering new sources of pollen, and that benefits the whole hive in the community.

[480] And that's really important to think about how we think about nerd emergency today or some of the biases that end up unfortunately coming into play.

[481] I think a lot of people are evaluating people from some theoretical, perfect, neurotypical standard of how things should be and not looking at it from like a community perspective or how we can complement each other.

[482] We don't all have to be the same.

[483] Well, also, let's just add that the 80 % that's non -neurodivergent, they're in their own columns as well.

[484] Like, it doesn't stop there.

[485] That 80 % has a whole range of other things that if you really were to chop it all up, there's not really any type of person that's going to even be a majority of humans on planet Earth.

[486] But one of the challenges I really see is a huge problem and our brains are wired to do these mental shortcuts.

[487] There are a lot of biases that come into play.

[488] One is the availability bias where our brains, whatever most psychologically available, we tend to take more seriously.

[489] And that factors in a lot with our assumptions about nerd -aversion people.

[490] You know, a lot of well -intentioned people.

[491] they'll make assumptions, especially about like autistic people based on very unrepresentative examples that they saw in the movies, you know, there's a...

[492] They saw Rain Man in the 80s.

[493] Yeah, exactly.

[494] The rain man, you know, Big Bang theory.

[495] You know, and it's mostly like white Caucasian boys or men.

[496] So the more we could showcase the diversity and the nuance and the richness of how even autism manifests itself and overlap with other neurodivergencies like we talked about, that's, I think, helpful to combat some of these.

[497] stereotypes.

[498] And there's a lot of nerd -aversion people.

[499] I mean, myself, I'm considered myself an extrovert.

[500] But you say you're a nerd -aversion, then they start making all sorts of assumptions about what you can and can't do.

[501] Yeah, you write in here, which I like is that if you were to bring someone over and you told us that they were neurodivergent, we would have no basis to extrapolate that fact into any preconceptions about the person's intellectual capabilities, general knowledge or capacity to successfully perform any task or role.

[502] I do think there's these stereotypes.

[503] And by the way, Some of them are, in quote, positive.

[504] It's like if someone's autistic, because the first one we saw, they could count toothpicks when they landed on the ground.

[505] You're like, okay, so what's the special thing can you do?

[506] Right.

[507] And then that's coupled with this thing I want you to tell us about, which is that we've been stuck in a paradigm, which is a deficit -based perspective or a medical deficit model.

[508] So explain that to us and how does that limit our ability to see a full -spectrum human in many different variety of full -spectrum human?

[509] That's been sort of the legacy framework.

[510] There's been so much of a focus on the deficit medical perspective that then ends up overshadowing or understanding the richness of talent and the strengths that are there, which there's many.

[511] And there's also a lot of talent that given the sort of neurotypical standards of evaluation are easy to mess, nonlinear thinking, lateral thinking, systems thinking, pattern detection.

[512] There's a lot of really important skills that I would argue are going to become even more important to the future that we have in front of us with AI becoming so prevalent.

[513] But going back to the B example, if you look at the medical deficit paradigm versus a strength -based paradigm, the purely deficit model would see four Bs that are performing well, give them their gold stars right for fitting in, doing the waggle dance.

[514] And then that fifth B who's doing things different, who's not following the waggle gowns would be.

[515] seen as the outcasts would be marginalized and maybe even potentially disruptive to the other four for sure and yet you know there's some researchers that study this kind of thing and that divergent be is actually really essential to the success of the entire hive community and so it doesn't mean that there aren't people that will need support and accommodations in that i'm not dismissing any of that but i think it's important to recognize that there's lots of different skill sets where we complement each other.

[516] And the teams that I think that are the most successful are going to be the ones that have cognitive diversity.

[517] And I talk a lot about some of the perils of group things.

[518] There's been some really interesting studies there.

[519] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[520] We've all been there.

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[525] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

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[536] Me Polar, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[537] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[538] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[539] So the broad scope of the neurodiversity edge of your book is really imploring business owners and people who hire to get past this and start seeing neurodivergent folks as an asset.

[540] And then I want to get into some of the data that would support that.

[541] But if we could go through, if you were willing, some of the strength -based framework for people, let's start with autism.

[542] What would be a strength -based framework for that?

[543] It's important, again, to recognize that every autistic person is very unique.

[544] My friend, Ricky, says if you meet someone with autism, you've met one person with autism.

[545] Yep, that's the phrase that we use in the community a lot.

[546] But autistic people, in terms of the research, there's a lot of uncommon skills in terms of focus on details.

[547] hyperfocus, which also overlaps with a lot of ADHDers also can hyperfocus.

[548] Pattern recognitions, there's sometimes unique visual spatial skills.

[549] There's been some interesting studies.

[550] Personally, I think there should be a nerd -a -version person on every board of directors because I've been on a lot of boards myself and the level of group think that sometimes happens on boards.

[551] And halo effect and all these.

[552] Absolutely is like disastrous.

[553] And autistic people in particular, there's all sorts of research about how they're just less susceptible to some of these cognitive biases.

[554] Would they track higher on the disagreeability chart when we look at the psychological profile?

[555] Like challengers?

[556] Yeah, I just, I would imagine, here's my, having read no studies about it, I would imagine if your experience through all of school was met with so much discomfort one -on -one socially that the notion of being seen as antisocial, like, you've already dealt with them.

[557] That's not some foreign fear you have.

[558] It's like, you've been kind of little.

[559] living in some of that discomfort.

[560] So to do it now in this boardroom is like just another day in life.

[561] By the way, I say disagreeability is a positive.

[562] I find myself to be disagreeable.

[563] So I like disagreeability.

[564] I've been on a lot of boards.

[565] It's a huge problem when there's nobody that brings up the obvious problems.

[566] That's not good for the organization.

[567] That's not good for the company.

[568] I think it applies to a lot of neurodiversion people, but there's research specifically on autistic people where they're going to be less concerned about their social status and more willing to just be super directed and honest and say, hey, this is a problem, right?

[569] This thing's going to blow up when it hits 20 ,000 feet.

[570] Yeah, not so focused on climbing a ladder or something esoteric like that.

[571] Right.

[572] In doing a lot of independent analysis, and there's been a number of interesting studies.

[573] There's one where autistic people were not influenced by these marketing gimmicks and framing techniques, but most neurotypical people, were or they were less influenced.

[574] There was another study with children where the researchers purposely misled the participants in what was the correct answer, which should have been extremely obvious of what the correct answer was.

[575] You know, does this line match this other line?

[576] And there was no ambiguity in terms of like what the correct answer was.

[577] But most of the neurotypical kids went along because they were misled.

[578] They were doing the juju dance or whatever you called it.

[579] It was a social pressure.

[580] Yeah, the waggle dance, right?

[581] And the autistic kids.

[582] kids were far, far, far less likely to go along with an incorrect and obviously incorrect answer, right?

[583] Right.

[584] What's a strength -based framework for dyslexics?

[585] Of course, they selfishly want to know this.

[586] Because I have to find myself back in the job marketplace.

[587] A lot of people in leadership positions that are dyslexic.

[588] I actually read a study recently, which is super interesting, that there's a large percentage of millionaires.

[589] I think it was 40 % that are dyslexic or have dyslexic traits.

[590] But some of the traits that are discussed a lot is big picture thinking, connecting dots among seemingly unrelated areas, like systems thinking.

[591] And so that's where it's interesting for me, too, is, you know, in interpersonal skills.

[592] I feel like I have those skills, but yet I'm not.

[593] So this is where I think we're in the infancy, too, of brain science and neuroscience.

[594] 10, 15 years from now will understand a lot of these nuances a lot better.

[595] I present in a lot of ways as a dyslexic in terms of my strengths and challenges, but then that's not.

[596] Yeah, your label.

[597] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[598] If we put all these different types of people in an fMRI, would we be able to observe this?

[599] Some things.

[600] Yeah, fMRIs, that's definitely helped in terms of progressing the field and understanding more because if you go back, say, like, 20, 30 years even, a lot of people thought things were a lot more fixed than they are with the brain.

[601] Jerry Fodor wrote a book called Modularity of Mind.

[602] So the thinking has definitely shifted a lot.

[603] I think we still have a long way to go, but we do know if you decide to learn a musical instrument, even as an older person, over time that does change your brain.

[604] You see certain areas of the brain being activated.

[605] It's highly malleable.

[606] Yeah.

[607] We have a much better understanding of neuroplasticity than we did 15 years ago for sure.

[608] Okay, so obviously, or what seems obvious to me, the initial barrier of finding employment if you're neurodivergent is that it's a high, social entrance to any job.

[609] It's a job interview.

[610] That's a hurdle.

[611] Yeah.

[612] Part of the problem, too, is that people have gotten accustomed to doing ads a certain way and job interviews a certain way and that, in many cases, is not consistent with the skills that are actually necessary for that job.

[613] And so that's, I think, a big problem.

[614] And then also, if you're talking about autistic people in particular, there's all these talents, and I think this applies to a lot of neurodiversion people, there's conceptual syntheses even, you know, there's all these talents that aren't going to be communicated in a verbal interview.

[615] And employers should want to find alternative ways of evaluating and assessing talent to attract unique talent that could really be this huge competitive edge.

[616] So here's one little bit of, I guess you could call this pushback or some cynicism on my part.

[617] But obviously many industries over endex in neurodivergent employees.

[618] I guess you would know whether there's data or not.

[619] So what do you buy over index?

[620] So I would imagine computer programming over indexes.

[621] I would imagine engineers over index.

[622] I think there's many different compartments of our economy that actually overindex.

[623] So it's like what about their hiring process just allowed for this all to happen?

[624] And do we need to push or do people just find their way knowing that these are some industries that not only take on but are overrepresented?

[625] should we be trying to force everyone into every bracket of the sphere, or is it fine that people are going to excel in different compartments?

[626] You bring up a good point because I think one of the criticisms in the community is the neurodiversity communities, very broad community.

[627] There's lots of talented people in the arts and design and are not, you know, in STEM.

[628] There is, I think, a lack of opportunity pathways, especially outside of these tech careers.

[629] You know, that's kind of, again, another stereotype, right?

[630] Yeah.

[631] People that are nerd aversion are going to be in cybersecurity.

[632] Employers have no problem crossing that barrier when they need the people.

[633] We see evidence of that.

[634] All these companies have gotten past that.

[635] What's obvious is if there is a commercial incentive, they will do it.

[636] And maybe it's that the other one's not obvious.

[637] And that is the argument you're making.

[638] But I just, I want to call attention to that.

[639] That when there's an incentive there, employers have responded.

[640] Right.

[641] And that's one of the reasons I have a chapter I'm supposed to.

[642] bring up the economics, trying to connect with employers.

[643] We're on a structural labor shortage too, right?

[644] And there should be a strong incentive to do things differently.

[645] I would say that sometimes employers think they know what they need, but they don't always know what they really need.

[646] And so where we're headed in the future work and the economic landscape we have in front of us, I think there's been so much focus on, okay, how do I integrate technology and AI systems?

[647] And there hasn't been enough focus on what is the human resource strategy?

[648] that we should be employing.

[649] And I think across the board, even outside of some of these areas that have been more identified by employers as being consistent with what they think neurodiversionate people are a good fit with, broader skill sets in intuitive leaps of insight, in lateral thinking and nonlinear thinking, systems thinking, people that are comfortable thinking outside the box, as people they're used to their whole lives, they've been finding creative workarounds.

[650] That's really valuable.

[651] Yeah, but I think it's really valuable, right?

[652] Like, if you're constantly problem -solving in unique ways, especially in the economic context we have in front of us, I think there's this unique place for neurodivergent people to work with neurotypical people and all the machine intelligence that's going to inevitably, whether we like it or not, is going to come into play.

[653] Is there data on the overall unemployment rate of neurodivergent people?

[654] Yes, and it's very depressing.

[655] So if you combine all the categories, of neurodiversion typologies, it's somewhere between 30 and 40 % unemployment, and then we're looking at maybe 15, 20 % of the world population being neurodivision.

[656] And then the U .S. alone, it's well under 4 % unemployment overall.

[657] So there's this huge, huge disproportionality.

[658] Yeah, it's like a 5x difference.

[659] Huge disproportionality with talented people that have a lot to contribute and lack of meaningful opportunities to be able to self -actualize.

[660] Is there a proposed approach for HR that is going to help them identify this and start being more open -minded?

[661] Is there like a recommended protocol?

[662] It's not really a standard.

[663] The good news is that we're finally at a point where the university is starting to become more of a mainstream conversation, at least.

[664] And there are a lot of companies that are making progress.

[665] The approach that I recommend is a very values -driven approach and doing the deeper work at the level of organizational culture.

[666] You know, I've worked with a number of companies that I think were well -intentioned and wanted to make progress in becoming murder -nernernercy -friendly.

[667] But there is a big difference if you do a surface level.

[668] Well, you said there's two models basically out there.

[669] There is the token neurodivergent employee to appear to be neuroinclusive.

[670] That's a bad option.

[671] Another bad option is you know it's coming.

[672] Eventually you'll have to.

[673] These are like the two options on the table.

[674] Right.

[675] And what you can do to actually make your organization genuinely valuing cognitive differences.

[676] And I've seen a lot of organizations that start out with this sort of tick the box approach, which has been really ineffective.

[677] We need two dyslexics, three autistics, and a hyperlexic by Friday.

[678] That doesn't work.

[679] I think the organizations that have committed to doing this deeper work at the level of the DNA of their organization or culture.

[680] It doesn't just open the doors to attract unique talent, including neurodiversion talent, but I think it helps all their employees be more productive because there's a different level of psychological safety.

[681] You could challenge the status quo.

[682] That's encouraged.

[683] That's accepted.

[684] There's more of a growth mindset.

[685] I try to focus there because I think that's where there's that real competitive edge and where companies and organizations are going to attract the best talent.

[686] Also, it just crossed my mind, really, maybe starting with the gatekeeper.

[687] Like, there should be many more neurodivergent HR people actually doing the employee because they're not going to have the same reaction.

[688] And also, I don't think companies realize that the vast majority already have 15, 20%, even sometimes their executive leadership, they're neurodivergent, they're just not disclosing.

[689] And I've worked with companies where there's behind the scenes, these secret support groups going on where people are meeting and supporting each other, but they're, you know, they're closeted.

[690] Exactly.

[691] That's a huge problem because look at the younger generations, I think it's important that these leaders are visible, but it has to be psychologically safe to do so they can't be penalized.

[692] And I've seen that happen, unfortunately.

[693] And so that's where I try to focus on the organizational culture.

[694] One of the other things I found that has been effective that has surprised me is I've done a lot of work in the community college system.

[695] And when I was president of my state association, the Illinois Community College Trustees Association, I spearheaded a project where we were at the first state level of educational association that passed a neurodiversity inclusion value statement.

[696] And then that led to some legislation in the state house in Illinois.

[697] Some people were like, oh, well, you know, it's just a value statement.

[698] Does that really change anything?

[699] But what's been really interesting is then to see how that has been like a interesting starting point where then some of these colleges Like Oakton College is an example.

[700] There's many others where there's that buy -in.

[701] So if the board of trustees adopt that statement and then the president is behind it in the cabinet, then that's open the door for these broader conversations.

[702] They're like, oh, well, how can we do things differently?

[703] Maybe we could do things better.

[704] Do we have a sensory -friendly space on campus?

[705] Maybe we could do more trainings across the board in the college with faculty.

[706] Maybe we could be more flexible.

[707] And I've kind of then seen the simple value statement actually be this interesting starting point that just opens conversations for actual real change in day -to -day policies and things that have actually then been really beneficial and helpful to students.

[708] And then also any of the people that work there in the college, because our statement extended beyond students.

[709] We included faculty, trustees, administrators.

[710] And what has been the result for businesses who have made an actual good faith effort and enacted real change?

[711] I have some case studies in my book and the ones I think that we're committed to this deeper approach.

[712] There's been a huge upside.

[713] It's benefited everyone.

[714] The organizations where there was that level of psychological safety, innovation goes to the roof.

[715] And this isn't neurodiversity specific, but like even Google, it's relevant, though.

[716] They started all their teams and they discovered that the teams that performed the best were not the ones that had the most resources or what they would consider the smartest people necessary.

[717] They were the teams that had the highest level psychological safety.

[718] Wow, that's crazy.

[719] It makes sense, So, like if your nerd diversion, especially in your natural gifts or way of thinking is coming from a different solution pathway or thinking about things differently and you're constantly being penalized for that rather than being in a culture where even if your idea is not embraced.

[720] But there's still encouragement and it's like, oh, well, that's really interesting.

[721] Keep them common.

[722] That kind of culture, that benefits everyone.

[723] It's a place everybody would feel excited to show up every day and work versus I have some case studies my book, there was one in particular where there was a really high performing employee in a leadership position.

[724] And once she disclosed that she was diagnosed autistic, people started treating her differently.

[725] So like trying to put in, it's not just policies in my book I call the three Cs where there's codification and conduct drives culture.

[726] So you could change your policies, but if the day -to -day behaviors of how people behave is inconsistent with the values that you espouse in a value statement, that's going to negatively affect your culture.

[727] And so the alignment between those two, I think, creates the conditions where everybody can be more innovative and thrive.

[728] That's going to also be a type of environment where you're going to attract neurodiversion talent that could really help your company.

[729] I feel like the biggest stereotype that would prevent a lot of progress in this space is on one hand, the five most valuable companies in the world are, again, the ones that are over -indexing in neurodivergence.

[730] One hand, you'd have to recognize, well, whatever your thoughts are, literally the five most valuable companies in the world are, in most cases, led by someone neurodivergent, by Elon Musk's own a mission.

[731] Many of these people will acknowledge this.

[732] By the way, whatever anyone's thoughts are, the fact that he went on Sarri -A -R -Rive and said, I'm the first autistic person to host Saratient Live, I was like, fuck yeah, good for him.

[733] Right.

[734] So on one hand, you have all this fucking proof that the most valuable companies are to this, Yet I think then the leap is the stereotype of like, well, yeah, that works in tech.

[735] But that's not going to work in my ad agency or my hospitality business.

[736] The skills that we think are stereotypical match up to tech.

[737] But there are so many skills that we don't know about that aren't stereotypical that are widespread.

[738] Right.

[739] It's on the hurdle, yeah.

[740] You bring up a really interesting point.

[741] I think it was Adam Grant in a Stanford lecture back around 2006 where he brought up for early stage startups.

[742] Many are founded by, as you brought up, like, neurodiversion of people.

[743] But then when you get into these larger corporations, there's this tendency to, you know, let's hire people that think like me. He almost shift from building to protecting.

[744] And when you shift to protecting, now everything's got to be done as it was.

[745] It almost codifies group think.

[746] Absolutely.

[747] And especially in the economic climate we're in front of us.

[748] That's disastrous.

[749] The big companies almost have the most to benefit from at this point.

[750] to become more flexible to hire for what I call neurodiversification rather than a culture.

[751] Actually, I think a lot of teams get stuck when everybody's similar in terms of their cognitive, analytical, and perceptual tendencies, because there's just going to be a lot of blind spots.

[752] And you won't know what you don't know.

[753] And I think the bigger companies, there's much more of a risk of that.

[754] And there's more of a learning curve to figure out how to do this well and to integrate and include neurodiversity, rather it being like this special track.

[755] Right.

[756] But some companies have these Nerd of Dersi at Work programs where it's really separate from their culture.

[757] So not even there to challenge or bring up the different idea.

[758] Yeah, I think where there's the most value is going to be is if you can truly integrate cognitive diversity and, you know, expand the menu of ideas that are being discussed at the top levels of product conversations, of strategy conversations.

[759] That's where companies are going to be the most competitive and people that are nerd diversion could be their authentic selves and they don't have to mask and we could get into what that means because that's also another problem.

[760] You could get hired as an nerd a person person and then if you're spending 50 % of your time, just trying to fit in rather than solving real problems, you're not going to get the most out of that person.

[761] But I do think the big companies have maybe the most to benefit if they could make this shift.

[762] That totally makes sense.

[763] Now, is it fair to say there are some occupations that aren't going to lend themselves to this?

[764] Like hospitality, something that is just whoever the most social butterfly in the world was is going to to be drawn to this occupation.

[765] And should it be everywhere?

[766] And is that realistic?

[767] First, I bring up when we talk about neurodiversity, right, is a really broad.

[768] Right, right.

[769] So you have so many different strengths and weaknesses.

[770] And I tend to like to think of it as, hey, we're all just people.

[771] We all have strength and weaknesses.

[772] But I'd also bring up, it's a myth.

[773] I mean, there's a lot of autistic people that are super extroverted.

[774] So again, it goes back to these stereotypes.

[775] And I think some people, you know, will surprise you, right?

[776] Or it could be a special interest of a person with autism where they put lots of effort.

[777] So I think, it goes back to the stereotypes.

[778] So I think, it's I think it's kind of case -by -case.

[779] Yeah.

[780] Well, now I regret that question.

[781] I'm kind of embarrassed.

[782] I'm asking.

[783] Well, no, I mean, I think it's a fair question.

[784] No, no, it's a fair question.

[785] No, no, it's a fair question.

[786] I would hope that at some point we can live in a world where it's acceptable to have different styles of leadership.

[787] Winston Churchill supposedly had strong autistic traits, but he stepped up to the plate in maybe he wasn't the best person at small talk.

[788] I don't know.

[789] But just having that perspective of maybe there should be room for different styles of leadership.

[790] Right.

[791] Even autistic people could make great leaders.

[792] I would even say that we pay an enormous price for our overweighing of charisma.

[793] We have lots of leaders throughout time who that's about all they have.

[794] Right.

[795] They're not necessarily solving problems that need to be solved.

[796] I'm not suggesting John Kerry was on any kind of spectrum, but I do know that people wanted him to be more boolean.

[797] And I was like, this guy is so fucking qualified.

[798] What are we talking about?

[799] There's been several of those.

[800] What happened to Hillary?

[801] Like, what are you guys talking about?

[802] You don't want to have a beer with her?

[803] You're not going to have a fucking beer with her.

[804] She's going to be running the country.

[805] Yeah.

[806] I mean, it's why, for the most part, there's one type of person in charge of most things, a charismatic man, normally.

[807] You know, and that is because we have ideas about what it means to lead.

[808] And we all are a part of it.

[809] We all follow suit.

[810] We all now do look up to that type as, oh, they're going to be a strong leader.

[811] Yeah, we just pray they also can do the job.

[812] Well, we don't seem to care that much right now, but we should.

[813] I was too, look where we are, right?

[814] I was in Davos in January, and big theme was all of the increasingly complex problems we have to solve, and we need people that can help solve problems.

[815] Kersma's important, too, but hey, we got a lot of problems to solve.

[816] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[817] Well, this has been incredible.

[818] I hope everyone checks out the Neurodiversity Edge, the essential guide to embracing autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and other neurological differences for any organization.

[819] Last question, I wonder if you ever ponder.

[820] The unemployment data says everything.

[821] It's tough.

[822] School's tough.

[823] The marketplace is tough.

[824] But oddly, it is better than it's ever been.

[825] Do you ever think about, surely 20 % of the population was also neurodivergent in 1850?

[826] What was happening then?

[827] What do you think was happening?

[828] So one of the paradoxes is that throughout history, and there's no way to prove this, But a lot of our trailblazers throughout history, like Benjamin Franklin, Albert Einstein, you know, there's so many examples of people that have changed the world that are thought to have had neurodiversion profiles.

[829] But if you look at it just more large scale, I'm sure there's been progress.

[830] One of the interesting things was during the pandemic.

[831] We saw some of the highest employment rates ever for the disability community more broadly.

[832] So not just with neurodiversion people, but because there was a lot more options with remote work.

[833] I know a lot of ADHDers that are super hyperactive and the ability to work from home and like, you know, jump around.

[834] Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, you know, jump around, you know, their office and create an environment that works for them and whatever they need to do, that actually has massively increased their productivity.

[835] And if they had to go to the office every day, then they're spending so much time just fitting in and not expressing themselves and that actually deteriorates their performance.

[836] So different employers have different opinions on that.

[837] But yeah, it's an interesting question to think about.

[838] I mean, obviously throughout history has always been neurodiversion people.

[839] So I think we're making progress.

[840] Some of us tend to think of it as this modern thing, but it's not a lot.

[841] But don't you think some people are under that?

[842] They'll go like, wait a minute.

[843] Why is everyone autistic now?

[844] Right?

[845] This was nowhere 30 years ago.

[846] Now everyone is.

[847] Is it on the increase?

[848] And you're like, we're just diagnosing.

[849] Well, there's a lot of women that wouldn't have been diagnosed, say, 20 years ago, where there's just a lot more awareness.

[850] The schools didn't identify kids as much.

[851] So I just think there's a lot more awareness so that there is more kids being identified, too.

[852] Yeah, I think they were just called bad kids.

[853] Sure.

[854] It's like, disruptive kid.

[855] He's hyper.

[856] Get them out of here.

[857] Right.

[858] Send him down to that room.

[859] We're Dax.

[860] Yeah.

[861] Well, on behalf of the 20 % of parents who have a child that's neurodivergent and is probably scared about the future of their kids, on their behalf, that you've written this book and that you're trying to make it a more inclusive place for all these kids to grow up and partaken.

[862] And for anyone who has a business, read this book because it will help you with your hiring and making it more inclusive.

[863] But not just inclusive, your business will be better.

[864] I think we forget that.

[865] Yeah, I don't think you can ask business owners to go into philanthropy.

[866] I think you have to convince business owners that there's an enormous financial incentive for them.

[867] Which there is.

[868] This is an asset.

[869] It's not a tradeoff.

[870] Right.

[871] All right.

[872] Well, so great meeting you, Marine.

[873] You know the thing I have.

[874] We have the opposite things, ish.

[875] I'm writing, I'm so verbal, orally, and I'm writing and I get to a word that I could say all day long.

[876] And I'm like, I don't even have a guess at what the first few letters are.

[877] There's nothing there.

[878] When people go, like, oh, you see things backwards?

[879] I'm like, that's not it.

[880] It's just I can do something orally that when I am trying to convert that into these symbols, I can't even start sometimes.

[881] People go like, look it up.

[882] I'm like, I don't even know what letter to go to in the fucking dictionary.

[883] Oh, I do.

[884] Thank God for voice dictate.

[885] Because it used to be I would have to move to a different word.

[886] I'd have to think of a synonym that I knew how to spell or start out of spell.

[887] And now when I'm writing in the morning, I'm on my phone every 25 seconds voice dictating into Google so I can see how it's written.

[888] Yeah, that's a good hack.

[889] What a fucking incredible breakthrough for me, technologically speaking.

[890] You listen to a lot of audiobooks, right?

[891] Yes, I love audiobooks.

[892] Yeah, yeah.

[893] I have an audiobook coming out, but it's not coming out until April.

[894] Do you yourself hate audiobooks?

[895] That's interesting question.

[896] Yeah, you know, I do like them, but I get impatient, and I don't know if it's the sort of ADHD element.

[897] Because, like, I'm used to like, okay, I want all this information.

[898] But I can, especially if it's something as written in a way that's more literary, I can still enjoy it.

[899] And maybe the narrators are really good performer.

[900] Yeah, yeah.

[901] You know, as long as they have the time, then I really do enjoy it.

[902] I do like audiobooks, but I think because the hyperlexic side of me, like I want to be like, Yeah, you're in gridlock traffic.

[903] So it has to be something that I really find enjoyable rather than just information.

[904] Right.

[905] I thought of you the other day because I was writing the word aisle.

[906] Oh, fuck that word.

[907] A -I -S -E.

[908] I was writing it.

[909] And even I thought, why is it spelled like this?

[910] This is a crazy way to spell that word.

[911] Might as well have an aid at the front of it.

[912] Right.

[913] And I did it.

[914] And I don't have dyslexia, but I was like, oh, man, that's impossible for people who do.

[915] All right, well, good luck with everything, and I hope everyone checks out the neurodiversity edge.

[916] Be well, and I'm sure you'll write another book, and hopefully we'll talk to you then.

[917] Okay.

[918] Yeah, thank you so much.

[919] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[920] Stay tuned to hear Miss Monica correct all the facts that were wrong.

[921] That's okay, though.

[922] We all make mistakes.

[923] Toc choke.

[924] Tocke.

[925] You ain't choking.

[926] You ain't smoking.

[927] You know that.

[928] Do you think anyone loves weed so much that they've gotten that tattooed on their neck or something?

[929] Yeah.

[930] Probably, right?

[931] In fact, if you have the tattoo, if you ain't choking, you ain't smoking, say so in the comments.

[932] And I guess I want to see a picture of it.

[933] Okay.

[934] I've never heard that.

[935] That saying?

[936] Mm -mm.

[937] I think I learned it from Ryan Hanson.

[938] Oh.

[939] It's a weed saying.

[940] Oh.

[941] Because, you know, when you smoke pot from a dubia joint.

[942] You choke.

[943] You cough a lot.

[944] I know.

[945] It's like so not sexy.

[946] Sorry, guys.

[947] You don't think choking sexy, coughing?

[948] No, it's not for me. Okay.

[949] Yeah.

[950] Trying to think if I've ever seen a girl really hack him up a long and thought, Oh, la, man, I hope she gets it.

[951] Yeah, he would like it.

[952] Oh, give it to me. Clear throat.

[953] Oh.

[954] Sorry.

[955] The last one snapped out.

[956] Saturday was Lincoln's birthday party.

[957] It was.

[958] And to my great delight, she picked volleyball tournament for the activity.

[959] And it was looking so touching go.

[960] It was raining all.

[961] I was worried when I woke up.

[962] I was like, oh, boy, this is bad.

[963] We all were.

[964] But you know, I kept saying the sun is going to come out.

[965] I'm watching the app.

[966] Today, not tomorrow unconventionally.

[967] Right.

[968] The sun won't come out today.

[969] Yeah.

[970] First, it's at 11.

[971] No, I'm like, honey, no problem.

[972] People aren't even getting here until 12 or 1.

[973] The grass will dry up.

[974] Then 11 became 12, 12 became 1.

[975] But I kept it positive.

[976] You did.

[977] I kept looking at that radar.

[978] I was riding that radar because I'm also coming up with a backup plan, which I did.

[979] What was it going to be?

[980] Watch strays in the theater room in the downstairs with all the kids.

[981] Oh, my God.

[982] We have to tell that story.

[983] Which one?

[984] Oh, okay, great.

[985] What's really funny is we started watching it last night.

[986] Oh, mm -hmm.

[987] And she was like, whatever reason, now it was too much.

[988] The first time, loved it.

[989] This time was a little, I don't know.

[990] Anyways.

[991] Oh, that's interesting.

[992] Yeah.

[993] It was because we were all together as a family.

[994] Wow.

[995] She was embarrassed movie.

[996] I don't know.

[997] Just maybe she was catching how sexual it was this time.

[998] Yeah, because Strays is a Will Ferrell movie.

[999] It's a hard -ar movie.

[1000] Yeah, about dogs.

[1001] So Kristen thought it was a movie about dogs, like a kid's movie.

[1002] And so she took Lincoln.

[1003] To the movie theater.

[1004] Right.

[1005] And she loved it.

[1006] At her party, we're doing cake and stuff.

[1007] And then she made an announcement that, we're going to watch strays in the movie room.

[1008] There is penis eating.

[1009] Oh my God.

[1010] I laughed so hard.

[1011] There is penis eating in it.

[1012] It was like a warning.

[1013] But also that made me laugh so hard because it's like it doesn't matter.

[1014] Well, I shouldn't say this.

[1015] I'm not a child psychologist.

[1016] But I kind of feel like doesn't matter what you show them under a certain age because they don't Get it.

[1017] That's pretty much my opinion.

[1018] Yeah.

[1019] That's what's interesting.

[1020] I think between seeing it at the movie theater and then seeing it again last night at home, I think she has matured enough that some of the stuff was registering the way that was, she was like, I don't think I like it.

[1021] Wow.

[1022] But you're right.

[1023] A lot of it's just blowing over their head.

[1024] Like, they think sucking dicks means eating people's penises.

[1025] Well, no, this specifically.

[1026] Have you seen strays?

[1027] No. He bites his dick off, the dog.

[1028] Oh.

[1029] So it is literal penis eating.

[1030] Oh, man. And also penis is just a body part, like a hand.

[1031] It's not a sexual item.

[1032] I thought that's what she was interpreting as penis eating.

[1033] And I thought that was so cute.

[1034] The movie starts with a montage.

[1035] And Will's super happy dog voice.

[1036] And his owner is Will Forte, who's a total piece of shit, right?

[1037] He's a fucking, he's unemployed and he smokes weed all day.

[1038] And then Will Ferrell's like, I forget his owner's name, but like, let's say just chat.

[1039] Chad's the greatest.

[1040] I love Chad.

[1041] Chad's favorite toy is his penis.

[1042] He plays with it all day long.

[1043] And like, it just shows this dog watching Will looking at a computer.

[1044] Oh, my God.

[1045] Playing with his penis.

[1046] And he thinks it's his toy.

[1047] Oh.

[1048] And so at some point, the dogs bite that.

[1049] They go, like, eat his toy.

[1050] I see.

[1051] Anyways.

[1052] I also might be misremembering the ending, but it doesn't matter.

[1053] Whatever.

[1054] I just thought that was interesting.

[1055] Yeah.

[1056] So anyways, volleyball was great.

[1057] great.

[1058] Now, I don't want to say you got close to plane, but I feel like you got closer.

[1059] You're certainly sitting next.

[1060] You got physically closer in proximity to the court.

[1061] I did.

[1062] Did it look any more fun this time?

[1063] Or less fun.

[1064] There was an incident.

[1065] Oh, my God, there was an incredible incident.

[1066] Poor sweet Hannah.

[1067] Poor sweet Hannah.

[1068] Someone got blasted.

[1069] Clobbered.

[1070] Well, what was happening in a nutshell was we were down.

[1071] Charlie and I were on the same team.

[1072] And we were down like, I want to say 11 to 3.

[1073] It was almost like we're done.

[1074] And then fucking Charlie started serving just bullets.

[1075] One after another, right over the, just skimming the top of the net.

[1076] He aced them like six or seven times.

[1077] This has not happened in our backyard volleyball.

[1078] No one has served eight consecutive points in a row.

[1079] And so they were just getting more and more frustrated.

[1080] And Matt, who's a really good volleyball player, they're like, we're going to have to block it right at the net.

[1081] It's the only way we're ever going to defeat this.

[1082] So Charlie hit it as hard as he could.

[1083] It's screaming over the net at God knows how fast.

[1084] Matt comes up as fast as he can and immediately blocks it with both hands, which redirects the ball at full speed directly down onto Hannah's nose.

[1085] So it was like a ricochet, full speed, served.

[1086] speed and poor Hannah got blasted right in the face.

[1087] And at first her eye was stuck.

[1088] She said her eye was stuck sideways.

[1089] Well, I can't believe you had to bring that part up because there was six.

[1090] You asked me an important question and it's a part of my answer.

[1091] I guess it is.

[1092] The four of us were sitting there and we were all four of us said, I'm so glad we're not playing.

[1093] Oh, okay.

[1094] Well, that's fair.

[1095] I'm going to take that positive constructive.

[1096] I don't want to get hurt on a Saturday at 36.

[1097] I just don't.

[1098] That's fine.

[1099] At any rate, it was so fun.

[1100] Such a fun day.

[1101] And I had really this time I put in the work beforehand.

[1102] Now, this is going to go against what I had brought up earlier about Lane Norton's post, about the pain and the stretching and the injuries and all that.

[1103] So my workout that morning before volleyball was a very bizarre workout.

[1104] I did like 140 jumping jacks.

[1105] Oh.

[1106] I did four rounds of my stretching my back with my legs crossed.

[1107] and that takes, you know, whatever, very comprehensive.

[1108] Very lightweight shoulder works to get the shoulders warm.

[1109] Were you doing this for volleyball?

[1110] Specifically, yeah.

[1111] I wanted to get, because what I read in that thing also was like stretching, blah, blah, now a warm up does prevent, or there's some data to suggest.

[1112] So I really tried to warm my body up in all the ways I was going to be using it, mostly throwing my arms over my head nonstop.

[1113] And it was highly effective.

[1114] I was a little sore yesterday, but now.

[1115] Not anything like I was on my birthday where I was like disabled for a couple days.

[1116] That's good.

[1117] Yeah.

[1118] You did fall down.

[1119] I missed it.

[1120] Oh, a hundred times.

[1121] Oh.

[1122] Because the grass got wet.

[1123] I know.

[1124] And I slid many, many times.

[1125] I was noticing a lot of falls.

[1126] Uh -huh.

[1127] Oh, so fun.

[1128] You, okay, I can't tell you what's fun to you.

[1129] Yeah, did you laughing so hard.

[1130] Yeah, but I also, I did, I did see you in pain.

[1131] I did.

[1132] When?

[1133] You weren't like, help.

[1134] You were trying to keep it quiet, but you were hurt for, like, some minutes.

[1135] I saw it, and I was like, I have to look away.

[1136] I was, I had an incredibly great time from the second and started until it ended.

[1137] And I had a couple of huge slides where I hyper -extended my knee.

[1138] That's what I'm talking about.

[1139] Yeah, but that just made me laugh.

[1140] Okay, then great.

[1141] So, this is for Marine.

[1142] Marine talks about the phonological loop, phonological loop.

[1143] I don't remember exactly how she pronounced it, but it's a part of memory, according to Badly's model of working memory, model of human memory, in an attempt to present a more accurate model of primary memory, often referred to a short -term memory.

[1144] Working memory splits primary memory into multiple components, rather than considering it to be a single, unified construct.

[1145] The working memory model is a central executive, is the top.

[1146] Then it's broken down into phonological loop, episodic buffer, and visiospacial scratch pad.

[1147] Then off of the phonological loop is the articulatory loop and the acoustic store.

[1148] Okay.

[1149] Now I'm going to read about the phonological loop component.

[1150] phonological loop or articulatory loop as a whole deals with sound or phonological information.

[1151] Am I saying it right?

[1152] Phonological?

[1153] It feels like it'd be phonological, but maybe it's phonological.

[1154] I don't know.

[1155] I think it's a phonogram.

[1156] Phonograph.

[1157] Photogenic.

[1158] But you say phonetic, not phonetic.

[1159] That's what makes me think it's phonetical.

[1160] You say phonetic.

[1161] Phonetic, not phonetic.

[1162] So you think it's funnological?

[1163] I do because of phonetics.

[1164] Because that's the same word.

[1165] It is.

[1166] Yeah, phonetic.

[1167] But is that one of those things where we're just saying it so fast that it's become phonetic?

[1168] Phonogram pronunciation.

[1169] Phonogram.

[1170] Phone.

[1171] Okay.

[1172] Phonogram.

[1173] How about phonographic?

[1174] Why don't you do phonological?

[1175] Yeah, do funological.

[1176] Why are we tiptoeing around it?

[1177] Phonological.

[1178] Okay.

[1179] What did she say?

[1180] Phonological.

[1181] She did.

[1182] Fauna.

[1183] Oh, sorry.

[1184] Phonological.

[1185] Yeah, phonological.

[1186] Yeah.

[1187] It's phonetically spelled.

[1188] F -A -A -N -U -H -L -A.

[1189] But she's saying phonological.

[1190] You can't trust these robots.

[1191] They all have weird accents.

[1192] Is this like the blue and dress?

[1193] Oh, maybe.

[1194] Whatever.

[1195] I'm going to say phonological.

[1196] We don't know.

[1197] Stand by it.

[1198] It consists of two parts.

[1199] A short -term phonological store with auditory memory traces that are subject to rapid decay and an articulatory rehearsal component, sometimes called the articulatory loop, that can revive the memory traces.

[1200] The phonological loop may play a key role in the acquisition of vocabulary, particularly in the early childhood years.

[1201] It also may be vital for learning a second language.

[1202] The phonological store acts as an inner ear, remembering speech sounds in their temporal order, whilst the articulatory process acts as an inner voice and repeats the series of words or other speech elements on a loop to prevent them from decaying.

[1203] It's still confusing.

[1204] Okay, what is a real -life example of a phonological loop?

[1205] An interpreter translates phonological information from one language into another.

[1206] A person repeats an eight -digit confirmation code so that they can write it down for later.

[1207] Children repeat a series of words spoken to them during a phonics lesson.

[1208] it just means auditory instead of visual right no but it's part of the way the memory is stored right but i'm only thinking that where you hear and the information that is processed in the area of your brain auditorly is different than it is visually like give a visual cortex right so those things are in different places in your brain what you're hearing versus what you're reading This is unrelated, but related.

[1209] Can I tell you the thing that was a lot of listening to last night as I went to bed?

[1210] Yeah.

[1211] In the brief history of intelligence that I found.

[1212] Obvious, but also like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

[1213] So in the motor control center of our brain, like, if you look at our motor control area versus other mammals, uh -huh.

[1214] Ours is really quite big.

[1215] And then it's quite enormous for one specific skill.

[1216] It doesn't take a lot of memory to move your legs.

[1217] They only kind of function, there's like, you know, there's very, but primates, because we have these posable thumbs and these really, really precise fingers, our ability to move these 10 digits in such specific ways into a cotrillion different permutations takes up the bulk of our motor control center.

[1218] And that's why it's enormous for us, because we have these hands.

[1219] hands that require so much information to move them precisely the way we want to.

[1220] Whereas your feet, there's almost nothing dedicated to your feet.

[1221] Really?

[1222] Because there's nothing to really move down there.

[1223] There's no precision done.

[1224] To walk for them to perform the function they're designed to takes very tiniest part of your brain.

[1225] But these hands are taking up a ton.

[1226] Wow.

[1227] Which makes a lot of sense.

[1228] But I thought, I guess they do a lot.

[1229] They do the most work.

[1230] Yeah.

[1231] If you think about how you can spin your wrists and all your fingers and the way you can move it versus move your arm up and down yeah yeah it's true it only pivots in one spot it only articulates one way but these masterful things that have allowed us to become this that's interesting earth changing species it's all because of these little hands and then our mouse are a big chunk of it like how we can move our lips in our tongue yeah yeah how precise all that is to make all these sounds we're the only ones that can talk with this kind of language.

[1232] With this level of, yeah, yeah.

[1233] Yeah, I mean, if your tongue is too small.

[1234] Think of the...

[1235] Oh, gosh, very much.

[1236] Like, you can only move your knee one way.

[1237] I know.

[1238] But that tongue, boy, just do it in your mouth right now.

[1239] I know.

[1240] Any shape you want.

[1241] Well, I can't.

[1242] Can you do the twisty?

[1243] That?

[1244] No, the one where...

[1245] Some people can twist it all the way upside down.

[1246] I can fold mine.

[1247] Mm -hmm.

[1248] Tongue roll?

[1249] That?

[1250] You can do like the clover?

[1251] I can't do the clover, but I can do.

[1252] Well, that's nice.

[1253] Monica folded her tongue in half.

[1254] I made a suction.

[1255] Okay, good.

[1256] You can roll.

[1257] Uh -huh.

[1258] Okay.

[1259] I was getting nervous you couldn't because you weren't producing that quickly.

[1260] I can't see what Rob did.

[1261] Oh, I can't do the clover.

[1262] Can you?

[1263] No. None of us can.

[1264] It's close.

[1265] Maybe they can.

[1266] Yeah, you're getting.

[1267] Yeah, you're pretty much there.

[1268] Clover adjacent.

[1269] It's an unlucky clover.

[1270] Oh, no. Oh, no, don't do that.

[1271] Oh, on an episode of nobody's, well, they did a, they did a live stream on nobody's listening right for their patrons.

[1272] And a question, one of the patrons asked them was if you could have five liquids come out of each, like, if you could have a liquid come out of each finger.

[1273] What a great question.

[1274] Isn't that a good question?

[1275] What would it be?

[1276] What would yours be?

[1277] You know two of them right away.

[1278] Diet coat and coffee.

[1279] Coffee.

[1280] Okay, you would.

[1281] Absolutely.

[1282] Even though that's risky for you?

[1283] Well, I mean, why have a fluid come out that I don't want?

[1284] Well, no, but I mean, like, then you won't stop yourself.

[1285] Wait, you heard my third fingers.

[1286] Cocaine.

[1287] I'm teasing, Monica.

[1288] Fourth one is Jack Daniels.

[1289] Yeah, I thought that's what you were going to say.

[1290] Okay.

[1291] I would want the coffee to come out of my thumb.

[1292] Because I don't want to suck my thumb in the morning, like a little baby.

[1293] Why are you going?

[1294] I wonder how you would know how much you've had, though.

[1295] That's tricky.

[1296] This is a curse and a blessing.

[1297] There's a bunch of, what's it called?

[1298] What am I trying to say?

[1299] Like, there are things that stop you from drinking a lot of coffee, which is the hassle of getting up and making it.

[1300] Yeah, speed bumps.

[1301] Exactly.

[1302] Barriers.

[1303] This wouldn't have it.

[1304] Burdles.

[1305] Whartle.

[1306] I would, I just changed it.

[1307] My coffee would come out of my index finger instead of my thumb because I think a lot of people would want coffee.

[1308] Oh, that's nice.

[1309] It would be so much easier to pour it in a glass with my index finger.

[1310] then have to go like thumbs down, twist everything back to my motor control center.

[1311] I thought you were being selfless because you would have been sucking your thumb and then if you give it to others, your spig gets in there.

[1312] I'm going to suck that first index finger, obviously.

[1313] Oh, you're not going to pour in a cup?

[1314] Why would I when I just pull my hand up to me?

[1315] I guess you're right.

[1316] Would you drink coffee that came out of someone else's finger?

[1317] Eric would and Aaron would.

[1318] Okay, what are the others?

[1319] So you have Diet Coke, you have coffee.

[1320] Water.

[1321] You do water, yeah.

[1322] Well, everyone should.

[1323] What if you're in the desert?

[1324] I know.

[1325] I know.

[1326] Okay, wow.

[1327] Those are my three bevvvies that I love.

[1328] You could have some protein.

[1329] I'll have a protein shake.

[1330] Yeah, protein shake.

[1331] Okay, we can count that.

[1332] Yeah, I would never need anything again.

[1333] Because I would have nutrition and calories.

[1334] Oh.

[1335] You're doing like a survivalist.

[1336] Yeah, like I could literally go out into the desert for as long as I fucking wanted with nothing, not even a backpack full of food.

[1337] It was a great question.

[1338] Whoever asked this is a genius.

[1339] I agree.

[1340] I was Bill.

[1341] Who's Bill?

[1342] Gates.

[1343] I thought you meant Cosby.

[1344] Fuck.

[1345] I would pick.

[1346] My of my fifth.

[1347] Oh, you do?

[1348] Okay, what?

[1349] Can it be air?

[1350] Air?

[1351] Oxygen.

[1352] No, it's a liquid.

[1353] I could swim across the Atlantic.

[1354] I would like that.

[1355] Yeah.

[1356] But no, it's liquid only.

[1357] You pick like oil so you can set.

[1358] Well, actually, no, Rob, that's most people, apparently most people, that's, you mean liquid gold?

[1359] Liquid gold.

[1360] Liquid gold.

[1361] It's hot.

[1362] No, listen.

[1363] It's in the water state.

[1364] That's what most people pick.

[1365] Gasoline.

[1366] Gasoline.

[1367] Oh, to fill their car.

[1368] Well, that shows how spoiled I am.

[1369] If you would have asked me that in 2002, I'm like, fuck, man, I'm a lot of gas for sure.

[1370] It's killing me. And then maybe milk.

[1371] milk that was killing me too well you might want milk with your coffee i like to drink a black but i don't so like if you're serving others right oh okay now i know my okay here we go water wine water tea wine yeah water english breakfast tea uh -huh milk for my tea hold on a second i just thought of something what you're probably going to have to dedicate a couple or three of your to wine because you like different flavors at different times.

[1372] Yeah, if you're going to English breakfast tea specifically.

[1373] Yeah, you have to go specific.

[1374] Then you're, what wine?

[1375] I don't, I wouldn't pick wine.

[1376] Oh, wow.

[1377] You're going to regret that.

[1378] I know, actually, I am going to pick it.

[1379] Damn it.

[1380] Of course.

[1381] You're not being honest.

[1382] I am.

[1383] I was being honest.

[1384] I was trying to do the hurdle thing.

[1385] Like, it's better if I. Can't suck your pinky and have a shardinay.

[1386] Actually, I hate shardinay.

[1387] Actually, I bet that would, I bet I would stop drinking.

[1388] Really?

[1389] I kind of feel like it.

[1390] Because you'd have to.

[1391] No, it's just like it's any time.

[1392] It comes out of my body.

[1393] Yeah, I like the event of it.

[1394] Do you think anyone's so dumb that they picked urine?

[1395] And he picked it.

[1396] Oh, my God.

[1397] Well.

[1398] He thought that would be a fun trick to like throw pee on people.

[1399] Well, what is interesting about that is it would be nicer to be able to step up to a sink and just put your finger in the sink.

[1400] As long as it was actually draining your bladder.

[1401] That's what he said.

[1402] That's a good pick.

[1403] He said it'd be so easy.

[1404] That's really smart.

[1405] I'm not picking that because I don't want, Elizabeth made a good point.

[1406] I don't want my pee near my water and stuff.

[1407] Well, just keep them on opposite stuff.

[1408] It would drip.

[1409] Okay, so for you, it was water, English breakfast tea, and milk so far.

[1410] And.

[1411] I worry about milk getting like crusty at the end of your finger.

[1412] It doesn't.

[1413] In like.

[1414] Doesn't a nipples.

[1415] Why would it unfing it?

[1416] Yeah.

[1417] Oh my God.

[1418] Should I do breast milk for the world?

[1419] for people who can't...

[1420] Like a wet nurse for the world?

[1421] Yeah, and some babies can't suckle.

[1422] I mean, so when you're going to sit in a chair in front of your house and just have them bring children by and slurp on your ring finger?

[1423] That's a good charity.

[1424] Okay.

[1425] You'll have to eat a lot because it takes a lot of calories.

[1426] Can't you produce milk if you just like keep it once you have a baby if you just keep?

[1427] Yeah.

[1428] That's how wet nurses.

[1429] But some people, they have a limited supply.

[1430] So that's only if you have a really good supply.

[1431] Wow, I'm using two for milk.

[1432] I did not anticipate this.

[1433] You're sticking with that?

[1434] I'm not doing that.

[1435] No, no, no, no, no. I didn't think so.

[1436] But no, but the problem is I really don't like English breakfast tea without milk.

[1437] So it doesn't make sense.

[1438] What's cool is you could put, like, if you did your index and your middle finger, you just put both fingers in your teacup.

[1439] Exactly, but I only need a little milk, so it'd have to.

[1440] Well, you'd be able to control it.

[1441] I'd have to, like, do it really like.

[1442] No, just making your finger so he doesn't make it come out.

[1443] You have control over that.

[1444] Can you just do English breakfast with milk out of one finger?

[1445] Because if he's doing a protein shake, it's got multiple things of it.

[1446] How dare you, Rob.

[1447] That's kind of true.

[1448] But it only has one liquid.

[1449] You can count milkshake.

[1450] We'll find a muscle milk.

[1451] That's better.

[1452] And then I can't cheat.

[1453] So English breakfast tea, whole milk, breast milk.

[1454] Oh my God.

[1455] You got to get rid of breast milk.

[1456] No one's going to want to bring their baby to you to suck your finger.

[1457] Oh, that's what you think.

[1458] You talk about privilege.

[1459] Your kids were great.

[1460] rated drinking milk out, out the tit.

[1461] I'm sure Los Felis is crawling with children who have no access to me. I mean, I don't know if I'll be able to.

[1462] So it's good for me preventative.

[1463] Okay.

[1464] So breast milk.

[1465] Also, it's liquid gold.

[1466] Like, you can put it on your cuts.

[1467] Well, that's true.

[1468] It has a claustrum and it's really important.

[1469] Yeah.

[1470] I mean, I guess whole milk is breast milk.

[1471] Just rebrand it.

[1472] Don't call it breast milk, but that's what it is.

[1473] It's called super milk.

[1474] Liquid gold.

[1475] Okay.

[1476] What's your fifth?

[1477] Okay, fine.

[1478] I'll do a cat.

[1479] A cab, I guess.

[1480] A cab.

[1481] Quist my arm.

[1482] I also like martinis.

[1483] Do you can never wake up in the morning and like you would be like, oh, what do I feel?

[1484] And you look down at your sheet and just fucking there was an enormous puddle of all those liquids.

[1485] It ruined your mattress.

[1486] Like a wet train.

[1487] Yes.

[1488] Oh, but it would also be like, you'd be dehydrated.

[1489] Can you imagine?

[1490] I know.

[1491] There's a lot of questions.

[1492] Like, do you have to drink gallons and gallons of water?

[1493] No, no, that's the whole point of it.

[1494] Is this coming from a mystery place?

[1495] Or like HGH?

[1496] That's not a liquid.

[1497] Oh.

[1498] Or adrenaline?

[1499] What am I thinking?

[1500] I'd obviously do electrolytes.

[1501] But Elma is a powder, so this gets complex.

[1502] Anyway.

[1503] All right.

[1504] That's a great one.

[1505] Thank you.

[1506] What a good question that person asked.

[1507] Yeah.

[1508] I wish we had asked Bill Gates, be clear, that.

[1509] What he would pick.

[1510] He would obviously pick Diet Coke, coffee, India water.

[1511] Fresh India water out of the well.

[1512] The chai tea.

[1513] Chai tea, made, yeah.

[1514] I think he drank orange juice.

[1515] Yeah.

[1516] Well, he would drink anything.

[1517] He drank anything.

[1518] He drank anything.

[1519] The only thing he wants to drink is Diet Coke.

[1520] Yeah, yeah.

[1521] And a lot of, not a lot.

[1522] Several people in the comments asked, how many Diet Coke did you guys drink combined in that week?

[1523] week.

[1524] And I said in excess of 100.

[1525] And I stand by that.

[1526] God, you drank a lot.

[1527] Yeah, I think he and I both were doing at least eight, nine a day.

[1528] I don't know about him.

[1529] I saw you drink more than him.

[1530] He magically had like, he had Diet Coke's on all these meetings.

[1531] I'm like, where'd that come from?

[1532] I wanted a Diet Coke.

[1533] Well, you normally did.

[1534] He has a team, of course.

[1535] But I was like swiping him out of cars and stuff.

[1536] I was like a little scavenger.

[1537] Yeah, you were.

[1538] Okay, I think that's probably right.

[1539] Okay, anyway, there's still some more.

[1540] People who become road scholars after community college, there was a guy sort of recently -ish.

[1541] His name, shout -out, is Haseem Hardiman, and this was in 2017.

[1542] He was the first graduate from Community College of Philadelphia to become a road scholar.

[1543] Oh, wow.

[1544] At the risk of perpetuating this stereotype that people with autism have like superpowers are you watching love on the spectrum yet no oh god it's so have you checked it out yet rob no i've not we watch it with the kids it's so it's everything bradley said it was it's so heartwarming but there's this boy oh my god of course i wanted you so bad to see this episode it's an indian boy in long beach he's not a boy he's like um is he might be 32 oh And he's with his mom and his dad and his sister and they're from India.

[1545] He's first generation, but they're not.

[1546] Okay.

[1547] So the mom does most of the speaking, like, it's his birthday, and she does all the speaking.

[1548] And she's like, you know, and I hope you meet a girl.

[1549] And he goes, not an Indian girl.

[1550] I don't want an Indian.

[1551] Oh, no. I was like, oh, my God, this is Monica had lots.

[1552] His mom was like, okay, well, that's not a nice thing to say.

[1553] And so she kind of keeps going.

[1554] And then he's like, how long are you going to talk?

[1555] But they were asking him questions like...

[1556] He needs to go travel to India so he can heal himself.

[1557] Yes.

[1558] It's just really what we talk about.

[1559] Like there's no for this particular individual with autism, which doesn't mean anything about any other.

[1560] Yes.

[1561] Whenever he deems the truth and honest, there's like, there's just no hesitation to, there's no consideration that, like, if he just says, I don't want an Indian girlfriend.

[1562] If that crosses his mind, he just says it.

[1563] But they were asking him, what day was March 12th, 1998?

[1564] And this fast, he goes Tuesday.

[1565] Yeah, I've heard of this.

[1566] And then they said, like, what do you want to do on your date?

[1567] And he said, like, talk about math.

[1568] And then they said, like, what's 126 times 92?

[1569] And the second they finish asking, he just says the answer.

[1570] Wow.

[1571] And so.

[1572] That's so.

[1573] That's so.

[1574] The reason I bring that up is I was thinking that is the most abstract ability for you and I to imagine having.

[1575] Exactly.

[1576] It's like it's not even reachable.

[1577] I can't even fathom it.

[1578] It's so untangible.

[1579] Yeah.

[1580] And I was thinking, and then this skill set I have is equally as abstract.

[1581] Yeah.

[1582] That's right.

[1583] Every skill in a vacuum is abstract.

[1584] It's just how prevalent is.

[1585] the skill.

[1586] Yes.

[1587] And so my follow -up to that was like once I connected those two things, like, wow, that's something I can't really grasp.

[1588] But I don't feel bad because of it.

[1589] No one should pity me because I can't tell you what day of the month, March 12th was 1998.

[1590] It helped me go like, yeah, yeah, you shan't pity these people, nor assume that they really give a flying fuck.

[1591] They don't have that skill because I don't have that skill and I'm just fine not having that skill.

[1592] Right.

[1593] The only, again, the difference though is you aren't expected to.

[1594] Right.

[1595] Not having that skill doesn't prevent me from holding employment or finding a partner for sure.

[1596] Society isn't looking at you in a way because you don't have it.

[1597] Yes, but at the same time it helped me, I think, understand that they're not going like, wait, so you guys look each, you stare each other in the eyes all the time and you're comfortable doing that.

[1598] Yeah, I don't really care.

[1599] that I can't do that.

[1600] It helped me to that place.

[1601] Yeah.

[1602] They're not coveting the thing I can do per se.

[1603] Yeah.

[1604] They might be coveting a job or coveting a relationship.

[1605] Yeah.

[1606] But the actual thing that they don't have, like, they're not, it's not driving them mad that they don't have.

[1607] But just like it's not driving me nuts, I can't do.

[1608] I mean, I wish I could do that.

[1609] It'd be a cool thing to be able to do.

[1610] But like, my reality is my reality.

[1611] The things that aren't in my reality aren't giving me discomfort.

[1612] But the discomfort comes from.

[1613] society.

[1614] Right, but I'm just being specific.

[1615] The discomfort of not having a job is not having a job.

[1616] They might not even really care about not having a job.

[1617] It's the fact that you need a job in this world.

[1618] Yes, but those things are different.

[1619] Those are outcomes.

[1620] Yeah.

[1621] So yes, I can see they might want a job or want a partner.

[1622] But the skill, if you don't have it, you don't really care.

[1623] Yeah, I agree.

[1624] I wouldn't care personally if I couldn't look someone in the eye.

[1625] I only care because other people take that as a sign, something is off with me. Like, again, I'm agreeing with you.

[1626] Like, the skill itself means nothing.

[1627] It's just what we've decided is norm.

[1628] I'm on a stop pitying campaign.

[1629] Can you feel like?

[1630] Yeah.

[1631] I think it's good.

[1632] I guess, you know why I'm on?

[1633] Pity is different than compassion, though.

[1634] It is.

[1635] It is because there's an implied superiority to pity.

[1636] I agree.

[1637] Yeah.

[1638] And so, you know, I'm in a, I think it's on my mind because I'm in a position.

[1639] position where I have young children, and I'm trying to delineate the difference between these things.

[1640] I agree.

[1641] Like, when you feel pity for somebody, that means you think you're superior to that.

[1642] Or your position is better.

[1643] But sometimes it is better.

[1644] I think both things.

[1645] Or, again, no, I'm with you.

[1646] I think pity is bad, but I think compassion is very good.

[1647] And understanding the places in life where you've been given a leg up is good.

[1648] Yeah, like, I think watching this show and understanding the complexity of.

[1649] of how they process the world.

[1650] And compassion for me is like, great.

[1651] So when I am interacting with something like this, I have to have a different level of tolerance and patience.

[1652] And I'm happy to do that because I recognize they're going through.

[1653] You're like empathic.

[1654] But I don't need to go like, oh, that's the part people should police themselves against.

[1655] Totally, yeah.

[1656] Okay, 40 % of millionaires are dyslexic, she said.

[1657] She thinks that's the figure.

[1658] There's multiple figures.

[1659] A study by Richard Branson's group found that 35 % of successful entrepreneurs in the United States have dyslexia.

[1660] There's another one.

[1661] 60 % of self -made millionaires are dyslexic.

[1662] There's another one that says 40%.

[1663] What would be probably fair to say is they're over -indexing.

[1664] Yeah, there's a good percentage.

[1665] Oh, this one says 60%.

[1666] Like a multiple of what they represent in the, general population well i don't know how many are dyslexic do want to look a percentage of dyslexic people dyslexic what if he thought it was we wanted to hear it pronounce 20 % oh that's hot in the united states okay well that's all for maureen okay well that was great it's funny how much that um we had done that interview prior to a couple other interviews where it came up a lot And I felt far more informed.

[1667] Yeah.

[1668] You too.

[1669] Yeah.

[1670] I definitely think she is dead on right about moving forward, especially, an AI landscape.

[1671] Creativity really is going to be huge.

[1672] You need neurodivergent people in upper management.

[1673] Yeah.

[1674] Like helping run the show.

[1675] I think that's really important.

[1676] Yeah.

[1677] All right.

[1678] Love you.

[1679] Love you.

[1680] Bye.

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