S18 E6: (5/7) [Amy + Amy S.] Very Calculated

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of Histerical Early and Ad -Free.

[10] on Wondry Plus.

[11] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences.

[12] It discusses topics that can be upsetting and triggering, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, suicide, child abuse, and murder.

[13] Content warnings for each episode are at the top of episode notes.

[14] And confidential and free resources for survivors can be found linked in our episode notes as well as on our website, Something Was Wrong .com.

[15] slash resources.

[16] Some survivor names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[17] Testimony shared by guests on the show is their own and does not necessarily reflect the views of myself, something was wrong, broken cycle media, or wondering.

[18] The podcast and any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is any of the information a substitute for professional medical expertise or treatment.

[19] Thank you so much for listening.

[20] You think you know me, you don't know me well.

[21] My name is Amy.

[22] I met Caitlin through Facebook dating.

[23] At the time, I thought I was bi -curious or exploring that.

[24] I met her at the weekend that I was celebrating my 29th birthday.

[25] We talked for a little while.

[26] We connected on spirituality.

[27] She believed in God and I believe in God.

[28] We connected on some of our mental health background and having PCOS.

[29] She also was supportive to me when I left a job.

[30] I was going to start a new one, but it wasn't something I was sure about.

[31] I'm a deep person.

[32] I'm an open book.

[33] We were just talking about our lives.

[34] We continue this online, and then we were supposed to meet on my actual birthday, which was February 3rd, and that would have made it a Friday.

[35] However, I ended up having more plans, and every time we would try to hang out, she would come up with an excuse to not come to me. So I had to go to her.

[36] I'm about 45 minutes away from where she lived at the time.

[37] So we ended up meeting the first time on February 8th, I went to her house to pick her up.

[38] We went to dinner.

[39] She bought me a book.

[40] She bought me a card.

[41] Everything seems pretty normal.

[42] She did tell me in the car on the way there she was into women and that she was gay and then she told me a little bit about her sister and how her sister used to be also but then I ended up marrying a man she said that her family was supportive she didn't really talk about her family that much until we got to the restaurant where I shared a little bit about my background and then she shared that she didn't have a very good relationship with her family and At her sister's wedding, there was a strained situation that happened, but I don't really remember what she said.

[43] She did say that her dad had passed away.

[44] She said that he was abusive, but I don't know to what extent she didn't really go into that.

[45] Her brother, she didn't have a very good relationship with him either, but she didn't really go into detail about the specifics of stuff.

[46] I did a lot of the talking, believe it or not, I'm not always a talkative person, but I did a lot of the talking.

[47] about something I read or saw or watched a video about, and she would respond to that.

[48] But she did say some things at the time that made me think there's more to her than what she leads on.

[49] I do remember we were talking about jobs, and she said that she got fired from a job.

[50] She said that she got fired because a coworker had said that she wanted to drug a patient, and she said she worked at the woman's shelter.

[51] I was like, I don't know why someone would lie about that.

[52] That's really shitty.

[53] She made a joke saying that she was going to inject someone at work.

[54] A client or something.

[55] But at the time, I didn't even wrap my head around what she was saying.

[56] It seemed odd.

[57] So I just brushed it off because that's like a huge allegation.

[58] But at the same time, it wasn't something I was fixated on.

[59] I remember I was telling her about the show I was watching.

[60] It's basically innocent people being accused of a crime that they didn't commit, and they're in court, and they have to speak on behalf of it.

[61] And I was like, that's just messed up.

[62] When we get further into this, it'll make sense to why.

[63] I think she's very calculated person.

[64] The way that we got to know each other was very easy and natural.

[65] We had so much in common.

[66] Like, oh, here's a bit about me. No way, me too.

[67] Or I have the same hobby.

[68] she was lined up like in sync and it was very calculated dinner was okay she actually paid for me which was I thought was nice at the time we had plans to hang out after I didn't really know what we were going to do we just decided we're going to go eat and then potentially hang out after but then she cut it short she said I'm so sorry my stomach hurts I feel nauseous like I'm going to get sick I need to go home so I was like okay yeah no problem hope you're okay I ended up going home after that.

[69] We chatted a lot.

[70] We talked pretty regularly throughout the entire day and then we would try to stop, but then the next day we would start in the morning.

[71] It was a good morning text, and we kind of went quickly into saying babe and love and the little pet names.

[72] I say it was moving quickly.

[73] We tried to see each other a little bit more, but she was telling me about how she did have a car It was kind of hard to get out of her because first it was, oh, my car is taken and I said, what do you mean?

[74] And then it was, well, actually, I got impounded and I'm not sure why.

[75] And then she was forthcoming and said, I was behind on payments.

[76] She kept saying she was going to be able to give a payment and then get her car and then she'd be able to drive.

[77] She also told me during this period that she wasn't working.

[78] I was helping her look for jobs.

[79] She was a social worker, so I was finding and searching for jobs for her, being like, oh, try this one.

[80] We were talking a lot for the next week.

[81] It was the week of Valentine's Day.

[82] A couple days before she had said she was going to an Airbnb, her friend was going to take her.

[83] She's like, I wish you were here.

[84] And I said, yeah, me too, but I can't really afford it.

[85] So unfortunately, I can't go.

[86] And then she's like, never mind.

[87] She sent me a picture of her with a black eye.

[88] and she said my dog jumped up and hit me in the eye or something like that.

[89] There was a time where she was hinting that she needed help financially with something I think I had to do with her car.

[90] And me and being me, I was like, okay, well, I can help me. Or she's like, oh, no, you don't have to.

[91] I wasn't working, so I didn't really have an income either.

[92] I ended up taking out a small loan.

[93] So I gave her a little bit of money to help her out with that.

[94] And she did pay me back.

[95] I don't know what happened after that with her car.

[96] because the next few times I saw her she still didn't have it.

[97] She said she still didn't have enough and it was just enough to cover something.

[98] On Valentine's Day is when we had planned to see each other again.

[99] Our second day, I drove there and our plan was to go to a pottery place where you paint pottery.

[100] Then we went to Denny's for lunch because I ended up going early in the morning because she said she had counseling appointments in the afternoon.

[101] I drove up.

[102] I got her a Valentine's Day gift.

[103] We just started talking, so I didn't go all out or anything crazy.

[104] But I just got her like a stuffed animal, a little card.

[105] And I bought this book at the bookstore to do with being a lesbian as like a prompt book, a journal.

[106] I ended up giving it to her because she was really into exploring that.

[107] The only context we ever had was when she asked me to give her a hug, say thank you for the gift.

[108] And then on our way to Danny, she's like, I need to ask you something.

[109] And I'm really nervous to ask you.

[110] I was like, okay.

[111] And I kind of figured what she was going to ask.

[112] I was kind of prepared when I wasn't.

[113] When we were in the parking lot, she had said, hey, do you want to be my girlfriend?

[114] And I said, yeah, I was thinking about it too.

[115] When she asked me to be her girlfriend, she said, you're the only person I've ever dated it.

[116] Or like the first real relationship she's ever had.

[117] her behavior was different you would think we just started dating let's start telling people and kind of making a thing but she didn't really want to right away she's like no not yet and I'd rather wait and I was like okay me being me I told my friends because I've been single for a long time so it was exciting I was just telling people through my messages and stuff and then after that I drove her home things seem normal I'm excited she seems excited she's like it was so nice to see you.

[118] I have those messages where she was like, it was a really good time.

[119] Thank you for this time that we had together.

[120] The following day, we talked a lot.

[121] I was showing her jobs again.

[122] She kind of would dodge it February 15th.

[123] She said, babe, and I said, yes, darling.

[124] She said, can I tell you something?

[125] It's big, but I don't want you to freak out and decide them too much.

[126] I said, you can tell me anything.

[127] She says, so back in September, I was sexually assaulted by a man. I said, oh my God, I'm so sorry.

[128] When I initially saw that, you don't want to think, oh, I don't believe this person because I've been through similar situations.

[129] I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt as she continues on.

[130] So she said, it's okay.

[131] I just went to the walking clinic at the doctor's office because I was worried about the bleeding.

[132] And I said, okay, and she said they did a pregnancy test.

[133] I said, I'm a pregnant.

[134] She said, yes.

[135] And then she said, if you want to break up, I get it.

[136] I think the way I've always been is I always have that tendency to want to support people right off the bat.

[137] So I go straight into that rescue mode.

[138] You want to be supportive and be there at someone's side because it's a traumatic situation.

[139] So I'm thinking she needs someone to be supportive to her.

[140] I just told her, you can't scare me away.

[141] I don't want to break up.

[142] I'll be with you every step of the way.

[143] At this point, I'm thinking she's having a baby.

[144] There's nothing else.

[145] I mean, I just met her.

[146] So there was a part of me questioning, should I stay or should I not?

[147] But then I kept reminding myself, I liked her for a reason.

[148] I'm not just going to be that person that decides to be like, screw me, if I'm out.

[149] I was communicating with my friends because I was like, she's pregnant, and I don't know how to react.

[150] I was told by my friends, she should go see her because she was saying she was at the hospital, and they were doing tests on her.

[151] I was having a few drinks at home.

[152] I wasn't drunk, but I just wasn't able to drive.

[153] So my friends were saying, you need to ask more questions.

[154] They were asking me a million questions, and I was like, I don't know.

[155] At that time in my life, I didn't believe in asking people things that they didn't want to tell me. I used to think it's none of my business unless they want to tell me. I couldn't tell if she was pregnant or not.

[156] There's no way to know.

[157] I've heard people say, I'm pregnant, and you would never know.

[158] So I was telling my friends, and they were saying, so she must be this far along.

[159] So I'd ask her, I'd argue this far along.

[160] And she's like, yeah, basically 24 weeks is what she said.

[161] She did say, I'm shocked because she also has an IUD.

[162] So that's fine.

[163] And I was more focused on, okay, what can I do?

[164] I guess as a trauma response, I was trying to be that person.

[165] And I really wanted to be there physically with her, but I couldn't.

[166] So I was like, this is the best that I can do right now.

[167] She said, I just went to the hospital for the ultrasound.

[168] They haven't done it yet.

[169] I just got here for it.

[170] And I said, how are you doing?

[171] Are you alone?

[172] Do you need me?

[173] She said, I'm alone, but it's fine.

[174] I'll be okay.

[175] And I said, okay, how's your well -being, though?

[176] She said, it's okay.

[177] I guess I'm in shock.

[178] I said, I mean, I would be too.

[179] It's a lot to take in.

[180] She said, yeah.

[181] And then I said I wanted to be there with her.

[182] She said, it's okay, I'm okay.

[183] I said, I'm going to call you in a minute.

[184] What she says next kind of made me raise an eyebrow because she was like, am I in trouble?

[185] I just kind of felt like it didn't seem real.

[186] But in my thinking, I was like, I don't want to question her because I don't know what she's going through potentially.

[187] She said, okay, I'm going for my ultrasound and can't have my phone.

[188] I'll call you after Babe.

[189] I said, okay, babe, I'm here.

[190] And then she said, sorry.

[191] I said, what are you saying sorry for?

[192] Are you good to talk?

[193] She said, I just feel bad that it took so long.

[194] I'll call you soon.

[195] So she ended up saying, hey, I just got home.

[196] Don't think I have the capacity to talk about what's happening.

[197] It's not me shutting you or not wanting to talk to you.

[198] I'm just overwhelmed.

[199] I am okay and everything will be fine.

[200] I just need to process.

[201] I just said I understand.

[202] And then the next day, which is the 16th.

[203] She was saying, good morning, and I said, good morning, how did you sleep?

[204] She said, surprisingly, I slept well, I said, well, I'm glad for that.

[205] And then I had an interview, so I said I would talk to her after.

[206] I said, how are you really doing?

[207] What is your thought process?

[208] Where is your brain at?

[209] Are you thinking of keeping the baby adoption?

[210] This must be extremely difficult for you, and I'm here for you no matter what.

[211] And then she says, well, I found out my ultrasound last night that the baby doesn't have a heartbeat and that's why I was bleeding so I have to deliver her this weekend.

[212] I said, does anyone else know you really shouldn't be able to do that?

[213] She said my friend knows and is coming with me. I said, okay, I'm just confused as to why they let you go home.

[214] So I started asking questions.

[215] I was also telling my friends the same thing because I was like, what the heck is going on?

[216] They were just like, how does she get home or why did they keep her at the hospital?

[217] She had an answer for everything.

[218] She said, It was because you don't have to have the baby right away.

[219] You're allowed to have time.

[220] If you don't believe me, that's fine.

[221] So there's that manipulation.

[222] I did want to have a conversation with her over the phone, and I did tell her at some point that I needed to see her.

[223] This is a lot for me, but I didn't want to admit it to myself at the time.

[224] I was going through job change, and I was going through my own stuff in my personal life, so I didn't know if I could handle it.

[225] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[226] I'm Sachi Cole.

[227] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[228] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[229] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[230] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[231] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[232] Follow Scam influencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[233] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[234] I'm Dan Tiberski.

[235] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[236] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[237] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[238] She's like, I can't.

[239] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[240] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[241] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[242] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[243] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[244] Yeah, yeah.

[245] Well, yeah.

[246] No, it's hysteria.

[247] It's all in your head.

[248] It's not physical.

[249] Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[250] Is this the largest mass history?

[251] hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[252] Or is it something else entirely?

[253] Something's wrong here.

[254] Something's not right.

[255] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[256] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[257] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[258] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[259] Originally, she said her friend was going with her and not to worry.

[260] You don't need to come.

[261] So I was like, okay, I'm here on standby if you need me. And then in an instant, she said, okay, my friend, she has the flu, so she can't come.

[262] I was like, I need answers.

[263] So that's why I decided to go there.

[264] When I ended up going, I left early in the morning, she did appear to be distraught a little bit.

[265] I ended up going into her apartment where she lived with her mom.

[266] She told me they lived together.

[267] and the state of the apartment was a disaster.

[268] She's like, please don't judge me. My apartment's a really big mess.

[269] And I was like, you're going through a lot so I understand.

[270] But there was a dog tied on the ground and there was dog poop on it.

[271] It was used.

[272] It wasn't a cleanly environment.

[273] And then the couch was broken in half.

[274] So we're sitting on this broken couch and she's like, you can ask me whatever you want.

[275] I don't know what to say because I'm, still processing it, so I'm just like, how can I stay here and question someone that is telling me that they're pregnant and then the next day is a skill born and then they need to deliver it right away.

[276] So it was like, I didn't really have time to wrap my head around it.

[277] It was more or less, let's go, let's go, let's go.

[278] Then she's telling me that she's not feeling well.

[279] She said, I have to deliver this baby and I'm like, okay, well, let's go to the hospital here.

[280] She's like, oh, I can't.

[281] They don't specialize in stillborn birds.

[282] So I said, okay, well, where do you have to go?

[283] And then she stayed in the location, which was an hour from where I live.

[284] Thursday, the 16th, we ended up talking about how are we going to get this Airbnb?

[285] I didn't even have any money, but I took out another loan so I can book an Airbnb for us to go so she can do this.

[286] She had the hospital on speed aisle, so she called the nurse and said, can I come tonight instead?

[287] And I didn't really hear anyone on the other side of the phone.

[288] She called this number and she was fully having a conversation with somebody.

[289] She was like, can I come now?

[290] I don't remember everything, but basically saying, yeah, we can go now.

[291] We had to go back to my apartment, 45 minutes there.

[292] I wanted to go home because I didn't have anything to eat.

[293] I wanted to pack a bank and I wanted to have stuff ready for me to be prepared for this.

[294] She ended up meeting my roommate, which was kind of an awkward encounter because I don't even know how much I told my roommate about it, so I don't think she even knew, to be honest.

[295] I let her drive my car, which now that I'm thinking is kind of stupid, because if someone is an active labor or is having a stubborn baby, me like you would think they can't drive.

[296] But in my mind, I was like, well, I don't like driving at night.

[297] If you want to drive, you can do that.

[298] So we're driving to the next location where the hospital is.

[299] And she's talking about her work as a nanny for a family and how the kid was a menace, apparently.

[300] And he was horrible to work with.

[301] But she just did the job anyways because it was convenient for her.

[302] We went to the hospital in London, Ontario.

[303] She went in, she's like, I'm only, I think she said four centimeters.

[304] She was crying, not bawling her eyes up, but she was crying.

[305] You can tell she was under distress.

[306] I was trying to be comforting and just saying, I'm sorry that you're going through this.

[307] And then that's when I went to the Airbnb.

[308] I started making food and I'm like, you need to eat something.

[309] I don't know how long it's been since me both ate.

[310] I'm making us dinner.

[311] She's like, I'm probably not going to eat anything.

[312] My stomach hurts.

[313] And then this is what was a red flag to me. because she was asking to take my car to go back to the hospital.

[314] And I was like, why do you want my car?

[315] The food was already on in the frying pan.

[316] And she wanted to leave right then and there.

[317] She's like, I'll come back.

[318] But in my gut, I was like, why would you want to take my car?

[319] I couldn't understand it.

[320] She didn't really have a reason other than to go to the hospital and come back to check on herself again.

[321] She kept saying she's not feeling well.

[322] Like her stomach really hurts.

[323] She's in pain.

[324] And so I'm just like, okay, well, we can go as soon as you get this food cooked, so I'm not leaving it on the burner.

[325] But after the food was done, I said, sorry, I'm not letting you drive my car.

[326] That's when she started to feel better.

[327] So she was like, oh, I'm feeling okay.

[328] She didn't really eat much.

[329] And then she's like, you should have a shower.

[330] The jeweler is going to be here soon.

[331] She'll be here at 9 p .m. She had put on the episode of Grace Anatomy where April has a stillborn baby, and she's like, oh, I want to watch this.

[332] It's kind of twisted, but it's just my sense of humor to kind of get me through this.

[333] I thought maybe that was her way of dealing with it, but I didn't really respond to it.

[334] I believe it was still on when the Dula came.

[335] My name is Amy S. I am a Dula, an advocate.

[336] I came to Dula work because it was a burning passion.

[337] I always knew that I wanted to be a Dula, even when I didn't actually know what a Dula was.

[338] When I was in high school, it was probably like 16.

[339] And somewhere on the internet, I came across the Dula training and just knew that one day I would do that right alongside being a yoga teacher.

[340] So at 30, I became a Dula and a yoga teacher.

[341] I'm indigenous.

[342] I am woodland.

[343] Cree in Métis, my ancestor signed Treaty 6, and in the 60s, my biological father and all of his siblings were scooped by the government, and they were either put in foster care, homes, or day school programs, the residential schools within Canada.

[344] I was removed from my family.

[345] I didn't get to grow up knowing them, but I found out that my great -grandmother was an indigenous midwife.

[346] And that's really cool to me because I've just always felt called to this work and knowing that someone in my family was also within this scope of providing these services has been a big part of my reconnection journey to my indigenous family and building those connections.

[347] And now I kind of have deeper meaning as to what this work means for me. Caitlin texted me in February of 2023, asking if I still provide law support.

[348] For me, law support looks a little bit different.

[349] I think that's just because of all the different modalities that I work within as a doula.

[350] A lot of times the support that people are looking for is actually after the loss or during the loss physically being with somebody while they're experiencing a loss or afterwards when they're not sure how to cope, that's typically where I come in personally, just being there while they're experiencing the loss.

[351] I have a lot of people who recommend me for the after because I'm the person that will sit with them and listen to their stories and hold space.

[352] I also see the healing power outside of just talking.

[353] When you look at healing.

[354] And you look at trauma and grief and loss as a whole, we tend to forget that those are all held within our body.

[355] We kind of say, just talk about it and it'll get better.

[356] And that's not always the case.

[357] We hold all of those emotions in our body.

[358] And sometimes movement is what's needed, like somatic exercising, breath work, all of those things.

[359] Those are different exercises that I do with people who come to me after the loss has occurred and they are still struggling as a doula.

[360] I get text messages and calls a lot of times from different people looking for services.

[361] For my story, that was not out of the ordinary for me. I have social media.

[362] I'm just not super present on it.

[363] No red flags for me when she reached out through text.

[364] We had a quick text conversation.

[365] She just said, I'm experiencing a loss.

[366] I don't have a support system.

[367] I would really like to chat with you about that.

[368] It was Wednesday, February 15th.

[369] I said, I have time this evening if you want to do like a quick FaceTime chat.

[370] So later that evening, probably three or four hours later, we video chatted.

[371] We talked for about an hour.

[372] She explained her story and that was kind of it.

[373] I felt so heartbroken for her.

[374] She touched on all of my soft spots.

[375] and hooked me into offering her my support.

[376] When we initially spoke during that first conversation, she told me that she was a student at King's College here at Western.

[377] She was in her last year of social work.

[378] She lived on campus with roommates and that her pregnancy was the result of a rape.

[379] She didn't tell me who had raped her, and because of the trauma and the grief with the situation, I didn't press for details at that point.

[380] She had said that she was 24 weeks pregnant and she had gone in for a check and they had not found a heartbeat on the ultrasound and that she'd had a conversation with the OB and that they had agreed to let her try to spontaneously go into labor so she could vaginally deliver the baby and that she would have two weeks to do that.

[381] She had chosen to go into spontaneous labor so to try without being induced or having a DNC.

[382] She didn't want to do anything like that.

[383] She really felt passionately about vaginally delivering her baby and having a beautiful birth experience even though she knew that her baby would not be breathing when she came out.

[384] So she was very aware of the situation.

[385] situation.

[386] Those were her choices.

[387] I didn't see any red flags during our initial consult.

[388] We spent an hour video chatting.

[389] She was very open, what seemed like very honest and genuine.

[390] I asked, what about your support system?

[391] Do you have any family or friends that are willing to support you?

[392] And she said that her mom was not supportive, that she had wanted her to have an abortion and Caitlin refused, so her mom was not going to be involved at all.

[393] She said that she did have some friends that lived a couple hours away, but that they were willing to drive to London to support her if she needed it.

[394] We got off the phone the Wednesday evening at the 8 o 'clock.

[395] The Thursday afternoon, she had messaged me and said that she think she was having contractions.

[396] As the evening went on, they were getting more severe.

[397] She told me that she was at the Airbnb and her friend was here with her.

[398] So I didn't feel like I needed to rush over or physically be there with her.

[399] She was keeping me updated via text.

[400] Things were moving at a reasonable pace.

[401] Then on the Thursday evening, about 9 .30, she texted me saying that they were getting really intense and she wasn't sure that she could handle the pain so I asked her if she wanted me to come over and she was like are you sure you're not going to be upset with me having to come over very apologetic but knowing the trauma and the grief that people go through in their life that's not unheard of to be apologetic and just based on the conversation that we'd had I already knew that she had a lot of trauma So I was just very reassuring, like, I don't mind.

[402] It's fine.

[403] When I look back now, it's very interesting to me. I say that I didn't pick up on any red flags.

[404] But when I was leaving, I made the joke to my husband like, oh, I'm going to send you the address of the Airbnb I'm at just in case I die or something like that.

[405] I said it as a joke, but I think intuitively, instinctually on some level, I knew that something wasn't right.

[406] But I didn't have any reason not to believe her or that anything was wrong because who in their right mind would lie about something so traumatic that so many people have endured, right?

[407] I said it as a flippant comment to my husband, but I did send him the address and then I remember after that weekend after everything had come out, I really was like, my God, anything could have happened to me during that time.

[408] I got to the Airbnb at about 10 o 'clock.

[409] When I walked in, it was just Caitlin in the room.

[410] Her girlfriend Amy was in the shower.

[411] I sat on the chair and Caitlin and I were talking.

[412] It was awkward.

[413] Her girlfriend, who at the time, Caitlin had told me was just a friend of hers.

[414] I had no idea that they were dating or girlfriends or seeing each other or anything like that.

[415] And they didn't act like that when they were together.

[416] When I got to the Airbnb, I had texted Caitlin and let her know that I was there, and she had come up the stairs, opened the door, let me in.

[417] I came down into the Airbnb and walked into the room, and Caitlin was watching Gray's Anatomy.

[418] She was watching the episode where April and Jackson are going through the loss of their son.

[419] When you think about it, from perspective of somebody going through a traumatic situation.

[420] I have a lot of experience in education in trauma.

[421] And when you think about it from that point of view, it's not that unreasonable to want to be comforted by someone else's experience.

[422] So going in and seeing the Grey's Anatomy episode that was on, she said this episode, it's really helping me with my own feelings and my own loss right now.

[423] And I was like, that's great that you found something that's helping you cope.

[424] with this in the moment.

[425] That, for me, just goes to show how aware she is of what she was doing.

[426] When people are like, she was a social worker and she had access to all these vulnerable people, absolutely.

[427] She 100 % did, but she also knew how to really manipulate people and have them believe this story.

[428] She was very, very good at playing the part.

[429] At one point, I made a joke.

[430] Somebody give her an Oscar or something.

[431] And it's sad to think about the amount of people who may be going through a loss or have experienced a loss or will experience the loss.

[432] And watching an episode like that could be very helpful to them.

[433] And then having myself or another doula come into a situation where it could be similar and they've heard this story, it's going to bring up red flags for them in that situation where it really might not be necessary.

[434] There were no red flags, honestly.

[435] I went in, took a shower, and then by the time I was out, the duel was there.

[436] And this is when it was real to me, because I didn't really process any of this.

[437] I a little bit of a backstory about my life without getting into too much.

[438] We had a death of a child.

[439] So this was extremely triggering for me because I don't know how to react.

[440] I don't know how to engage.

[441] I was just beside myself.

[442] This is potentially a traumatic event, so I'm going through trauma.

[443] I'm either, like, fight, fight, or freeze, and I was frozen.

[444] As soon as I saw the duel, I was like, I don't know what to do.

[445] I don't know how to act.

[446] So I sat on the couch, and I was just staring at her.

[447] That's when everything, all the trauma unfolded.

[448] She had music going, like, soothing music for birthing or a playlist on Spotify, specifically for that.

[449] And that's when the contractions started.

[450] I have never experienced being around someone who is having a baby, so I didn't really know any different.

[451] I thought the sounds were legit.

[452] And I was like, oh, this is happening.

[453] I'm just sitting there on the couch, staring off into the abyss.

[454] I don't know what to do.

[455] I don't know how to react.

[456] The doula got there, and it just happened to be that she gets contractions, essentially.

[457] Like all of a sudden, it just out of nowhere started.

[458] She starts taking deep breaths.

[459] It was so surreal.

[460] She was on her knees, different positions.

[461] Making the noises and the noises would get louder, louder, deeper and deeper.

[462] And then she would be fine.

[463] It dragged on all night.

[464] I believe the Dula got there around nine at night.

[465] And then when it ended, it was like two in the morning.

[466] So this was an all -night thing.

[467] She would want to go outside and walk around and do contractions.

[468] She would get excited, like, oh, I can walk down the street, no problem.

[469] I feel like jogging.

[470] It was like a rainy cold night, but it wasn't pouring rain or anything.

[471] And then she would break down and start crying.

[472] So it was very emotional.

[473] She's having contractions.

[474] I have given birth myself three times.

[475] I've been witness at many births.

[476] Shawna's audio on her having contractions last summer, it's very believable.

[477] The audio that people are going to listen to from August of 2022, and you fast forward from August 2022 to February of 2023 to when I was with her, the intensity and the believability of what her labor, those sounds, the actions that she made, every time she does it, she just gets better.

[478] It's mind -blowing.

[479] I remember being on the floor with her.

[480] She was on her hands and knees, having these intense contractions that are five minutes apart, lasting for 40 seconds.

[481] And I'm right on the ground with her, on my hands and knees, bent down, like my face to her face, talking to her and comforting her and telling her how incredible of a job she's doing.

[482] She was doing an incredible job at faking something.

[483] It blows my mind how real it seemed.

[484] When all of this came out, there were a lot of people who were like, well, how could you tell that it wasn't real?

[485] Well, when you look at these, you know, look at Catherine Hegel in like whatever movie that was where she was in labor and she was contracting, like, Caitlin was a hundred times more believable, and she's not getting paid millions of dollars to be in a movie.

[486] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[487] She had been under the influence, and then she left him there.

[488] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reid was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[489] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[490] What happens next?

[491] Depends on who you ask.

[492] Was it a crime of passion?

[493] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[494] This was clearly an intentional act.

[495] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[496] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[497] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[498] Everyone had an opinion.

[499] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[500] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[501] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[502] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[503] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[504] I only spent four hours in person with her.

[505] I think the reason that I spent so little time with her is because I do have some experience as a Dula whereas a lot of the doulas who were involved were newer doulas and some of them this was the very first client that they were working with which is just horrific to think about I am very good at setting boundaries so when I was with her we were moving around she was squatting she was so hot so she's taking her shirt off she's down on the ground I'm you know rubbing her back and comforting her and talking to her at one point her girlfriend Amy and I were both sitting on either side of the bed, and she was sitting there just crying on this bed because she couldn't do this.

[506] And her contractions had kind of stopped at that point.

[507] We had had the discussion about going to the hospital to get checked out.

[508] Her labor started to stall, which is not unheard of, especially if you have trauma around a hospital, which she said she had trauma around the pregnancy, which she had, it was the result of a raid.

[509] Like, that's already traumatic as it is.

[510] And then the thought of having to vaginally birth a baby who's not going to be alive when they come out, all of those things in once, it makes sense that labor would stall.

[511] Once I got her calm and she was comforted, we went outside for a walk.

[512] We were doing the curb walking.

[513] That's when you walk along the curb, one leg, up on the curb, one on the road.

[514] They're trying to open your pelvis.

[515] Her contractions started to pick up there.

[516] Her girlfriend, Amy, was supporting.

[517] her, and I was walking alongside them, and it's raining outside.

[518] I was hesitant because I believe that the Jula was her friend, and I was like, I'm being punked right now.

[519] I got the impression that they talked before because they were talking about, oh, how's your family, stuff like that?

[520] So I'm like, oh, maybe they know each other.

[521] I seriously thought, because she was saying, oh, my friend was supposed to come up that weekend, but she got sick with the flu.

[522] So I'm like, maybe that this is the girl with the flu, and this is some kind of a joke.

[523] At the time, I was like, I don't know what's going on.

[524] The duela seemed, in my opinion, fantastic with her.

[525] She was getting on her level on the ground, holding her hand, doing deep breaths with her, pounding down the contractions on her phone to time them.

[526] She seemed very knowledgeable.

[527] So that's where I was like, well, maybe this is a real dula.

[528] And I'm just reading too much into it.

[529] And then when I saw that, then I was like, okay.

[530] So I kind of would get down with her and like I would rub Caitlin's armor here and then holding her hand when we were outside and she was doing contractions.

[531] That's the most contact I did near the end.

[532] I was like, okay, I need to be in this 100%.

[533] Because in the beginning, I was just like, is this really happening?

[534] Is this real?

[535] Just going through my responses of the fight, flight, and freeze.

[536] And that's where I was frozen.

[537] And then throughout the night, I started to feel a little more comfortable with being supportive.

[538] She would go through different emotions.

[539] She would be getting and excited.

[540] And then as soon as we went back in, she's having a meltdown, crying, breaking down, saying, I don't want this to happen.

[541] I don't want to lose my baby.

[542] It was more or less for putting us through more emotional turmoil than the sexual point of view.

[543] but I could see on her face that she was enjoying the attention after revisiting the whole situation, reliving it.

[544] Those little things would come up in your mind like, oh, she enjoyed having that attention.

[545] We're in the moment, you're just thinking that she's going through all of these emotions.

[546] She wasn't naked at all throughout the entire time.

[547] She did take off her shirt during the night, but she wasn't naked or anything.

[548] Continuing on, we decided to go to the hospital.

[549] I drove her to the hospital.

[550] The Jula met us there.

[551] We went in.

[552] She's like, I want to go alone.

[553] So we're like, okay, you got this.

[554] The Jula was like, oh, we understand.

[555] We're here for you.

[556] It's the middle of the night.

[557] Eventually, I was able to convince her to go to the hospital.

[558] That was probably around our three.

[559] We went to the hospital.

[560] I met them there.

[561] The three of us went up to the fourth floor, which is labor and delivery.

[562] When we got outside of the elevators, she had said to us, I just need a minute.

[563] I really want to do this part alone.

[564] So obviously, I have to respect her wishes as a doula.

[565] I can't be like, well, no, I'm going to come in the room with you.

[566] That's not my job.

[567] My job is to be there and to offer the support that somebody wants me to offer them.

[568] I can make suggestions and I can say, if you want me to be there, let me know.

[569] This is coming out of COVID, so the hospital still has a lot of.

[570] policies, and they're constantly changing, so you can't necessarily keep track of what you're allowed to do or not do.

[571] But again, if Caitlin doesn't want you in the room, then you can't be in the room.

[572] At this point in time, she had worked with so many doulas that she knew not to bring us in the room.

[573] I went to my car.

[574] Her girlfriend went to her car, and we waited probably about half an hour, 40 minutes, and she texted me and said, they're sending me home.

[575] Nothing's changed.

[576] I'm still only four centimeters.

[577] So she came out and her girlfriend wasn't back yet to drive her back to the Airbnb.

[578] So she sat in the passenger side of my car and she said, well, what do we do now?

[579] I looked at her and I said, well, if the hospital is sending you home, that's because they don't think anything's going to happen right away.

[580] So the best thing for all of us to do is to get some rest.

[581] I'm going to go home and I'm going to sleep and you're going to go home and you're going to sleep and get as much rest as you can.

[582] She was just kind of like, oh, okay.

[583] And I think that when I said that, looking back now, she was a little surprised and a little shocked at the fact that I wasn't offering to go back to the Airbnb with her and support her.

[584] So we went home.

[585] I said, if things pick up, or if you need me to come back, or if you go back to a hospital, send me a message.

[586] And she didn't send me a message the whole night.

[587] I don't know what happened throughout the night.

[588] I don't know if she went to bed or if she kept up the facade with her girlfriend.

[589] She came in the car with me. She's like, let's go back to the Airbnb and then try to go to sleep.

[590] I was like, okay, it's quiet all night.

[591] We're both sleeping, don't hear anything.

[592] When she wakes up, she says, oh, I didn't have one contraction at all last night.

[593] That's so weird.

[594] I was thinking, okay, that's an odd thing to say.

[595] My mom is texting me. I didn't even tell my mom or anybody that I was going there rather than my roommate and then the two friends I was texting.

[596] But my mom was like, the snowstorm got really bad last night, drive safe, thinking I was at home.

[597] I just briefly texted her a little bit of information, but I didn't go into detail.

[598] And then we ended up leaving the Airbnb and she was like, I need to go back to the hospital.

[599] And I said, okay.

[600] She's like, I have an appointment.

[601] I am not the type of person that likes to be driving around somewhere that I don't know where I'm going.

[602] Even though I've been to London multiple times, I've never really driven around it for very long.

[603] So I was getting frustrated with the traffic and having to drive all around and find the hospital.

[604] The hustle and bustle of people being at the hospital is crowded.

[605] She wanted me to drop her off so she could go in by herself.

[606] She said, same thing.

[607] I'm only four seven meters dilated.

[608] I said, okay, what are the next steps?

[609] And this is why she started to say, you don't have to be here if you don't want to.

[610] I understand if you want to leave.

[611] And I was like, no, don't worry about me. I'm here for you.

[612] Even though on the back of my mind, I'm like, I don't think I should be here.

[613] That's when my instinct started to kick in.

[614] And I was like, I don't know.

[615] She hasn't had the baby yet.

[616] What's going on?

[617] I was questioning everything.

[618] But I couldn't first start and pinpoint it.

[619] and completely say, you're lying, because I had no idea.

[620] Why would someone make this up?

[621] Then she said, we have to get another Airbnb, and I said, I don't have any more money.

[622] She's like, okay, that's fine.

[623] I'm going to ask my sister.

[624] She eventually said that her sister got her an Airbnb.

[625] So we drove there.

[626] It was eight minutes to the hospital by driving.

[627] We drove to that Airbnb.

[628] We were a little bit early, so we ended up just going to Walmart.

[629] And then we sat in the parking lot for a while.

[630] She'll say, oh, my stomach really hurts.

[631] Or I'd be like, how are you feeling?

[632] She's like very crampy, but okay, we went to the Airbnb.

[633] And that's when she made a joke, like a sexual joke about the beds.

[634] We were looking at the rooms.

[635] She said something along the lines of this bed creaks.

[636] Wouldn't that be annoying during sex or something like that?

[637] I didn't even think that I heard her correct because I was like, what?

[638] She ended up going in the shower.

[639] I was just watching TV.

[640] And my mom was like, I'm going to call you soon and figure out what's going on.

[641] And I said, okay.

[642] And then I told her, my mom's going to call me soon.

[643] Can I tell her what's going on?

[644] And she was like, yeah, you can tell her.

[645] That's fine.

[646] So she went to lay down.

[647] She texted me again.

[648] And she's like, it's okay if you don't want to be here.

[649] I started to question, I don't know if I should be here either.

[650] I can't handle this.

[651] This is what I was thinking.

[652] My mom ended up calling me and it's this mother's intuition.

[653] And she basically was like, do you see?

[654] see this long term and I was like, I don't know because I just met her.

[655] She's like, okay, well, I think you should leave, but that's your decision.

[656] We continue talking.

[657] That's where I was like, if my mom has that intuition and I have that feeling, that just confirmed it, you got to go.

[658] So that's when I decided I was leaving.

[659] I felt horrible.

[660] I remember texting my friends being like, I don't know if I should stay and they actually try to convince me to stay to be supportive.

[661] And I was like, this doesn't feel right.

[662] I was fighting myself mentally.

[663] I was like, I'm a terrible person.

[664] I'm horrible.

[665] I should not leave her here.

[666] But that's where that flight kicked in.

[667] I was like, okay, I got to get out of here.

[668] Did you think you were going to break up with her?

[669] Or were you just like, I need a break from this.

[670] I need to go home and get rest and then figure out what I want to do next.

[671] It was a mix of that.

[672] I didn't necessarily think I was going to end it, but I wanted to see how I was going to feel the next.

[673] stay and give myself time because I looked inward and I was like, this is horrible what you're doing, leaving her.

[674] And I left in a shitty way.

[675] I just grabbed my stuff, went to the car and text her saying, sorry, I've decided to go home.

[676] She's like, okay, I understand.

[677] Let me know when you get home, drive safe.

[678] It didn't really seem like a big deal.

[679] It didn't seem like it really upset her.

[680] I was distant for the night.

[681] And I was also talking to some of my friends and that's when I decided I don't think I want to be with this person because it was a lot for me mentally and it was very traumatic I kind of was going to ghost her I'm not going to lie but then I had a friend saying how would you feel if someone did that and I was like okay you're right I shouldn't be a coward I'll just say my goodbyes so I said to her the next day I said hey sorry I've been so distant I was just trying to process everything I know I must be really hard for you.

[682] I really thought that I could give you what you needed.

[683] I don't think I can.

[684] I'm sorry that happened to you, which I really meant this message and everything I was saying.

[685] I said if it means anything to you, you're the strongest person I know or I've ever met.

[686] And I really mean that.

[687] Keep your head up.

[688] Take your time to heal.

[689] Allow yourself time to feel your feelings.

[690] My heart really goes out to you.

[691] I just don't think I can be the person you deserve to have with you through this process.

[692] I apologize for the way I left.

[693] I should have said goodbye properly.

[694] Forgive me for that.

[695] Anyways, I don't expect you to respond.

[696] I just didn't want to leave things left on said.

[697] And then she responded the next day saying, is this you breaking up with me?

[698] And then I said, I can't give you what you need is what I'm saying.

[699] She said, you've made it clear it's what you want.

[700] And then I just said, okay.

[701] And I didn't talk to her since.

[702] The last time was February 19th.

[703] No contacts, haven't reached out to her, haven't checked in nothing.

[704] this point, I just wanted to remove myself from the situation.

[705] The communication that Keatlin and I had on the Friday was I had to be at work and it wasn't available over the weekend.

[706] So I was trying to find a backup dula for her.

[707] So I had a backup dula who was going to go and support her.

[708] I talked to her on the Wednesday and I said, hey, like I have this client.

[709] I might need a backup.

[710] Are you available?

[711] And she was like, yep, that's fine.

[712] And the Friday morning, I was like, I feel really bad.

[713] She still hasn't had this baby, and she was just like, okay.

[714] Then I texted her later on in the morning, and I just said, I think that she might need you today.

[715] And I never got a response back.

[716] I sent her a couple messages, and this other doula just kind of ghosted me. I didn't hear from them for months after this happened.

[717] And I don't even know if I shared this with a lot of people, but it turns out that Caitlin had actually done this to her, or something similar to her in 2021, is what this person had told me when we finally talked months later.

[718] We had one small chat, but it didn't go very deep.

[719] We kind of lost touch.

[720] I'm just assuming it was too familiar.

[721] I had those thoughts when I found out from her after.

[722] Caitlin had done this to her, and I was, for a couple minutes, pretty pissed.

[723] Because I was like, if you knew that somebody was doing this and you stopped responding to me because it was triggering, maybe you should have said something.

[724] Maybe I wouldn't involve another douler.

[725] Maybe I would have looked harder, asked more questions from other people.

[726] But at the same time, I can't.

[727] be mad at her or blame her.

[728] She was dealing with her own trauma and her own grief around the situation.

[729] So I am assuming that the situation was just really triggering for her and that she kind of shut down, couldn't deal with it.

[730] So she just didn't answer me and put herself in that situation.

[731] When I wasn't getting a response the Friday morning from her, I started reaching out to other local doulas in the area that I knew, trying to find somebody that was supporting people through loss.

[732] It was hard because over COVID, a lot of people stopped doing Dula work or they were only doing certain things.

[733] So it took me a while.

[734] One of my Dula friends reached out to one of the Doola's that worked under her and asked her if she was available.

[735] She had supported people through loss before.

[736] So her and I chatted and that turned out to be Audrey.

[737] Next time, on something was wrong.

[738] A doula in my community had messaged a couple of other doulas.

[739] She happened to message the agency that I worked for.

[740] My initial thought was Caitlin.

[741] I was like, is she okay?

[742] Does she pass away?

[743] I get there and I parked, and she had texted me something.

[744] I believe the text was, the door is open.

[745] I will probably be naked when you come in.

[746] Thank you so much for listening.

[747] Until next time, stay safe, friends.

[748] Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production, created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[749] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at Something Was Wrong podcast.

[750] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags.

[751] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[752] Thank you so much.

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