S5 E8: Everything was Terrifying | Rachel

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences.

[11] Many episodes discuss topics that can be triggering, such as emotional and physical abuse, suicide, and murder.

[12] Please take caution when listening.

[13] I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[14] Opinions expressed by guests of the show do not necessarily represent the views of this podcast.

[15] If you or someone you know is being abused, please contact the National Dispresent.

[16] domestic violence hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[17] If you or someone you love is experiencing a suicidal crisis or thoughts of suicide, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[18] Thank you.

[19] I think mainstream Christianity, I think for the past 100 years has been gaslit and created into what it is now.

[20] Growing up, we were taught that if you were even 1 % off from the truth, you were going to hell.

[21] So all Catholics were going to go to hell.

[22] All, you know, Orthodox people were going to go to hell.

[23] All, you know, Jewish people that were going to go to hell.

[24] You know, even if you were, even if you were a Christian but didn't have one little belief you were going to go to hell.

[25] And it was like everything was, it was this constant fear that you were going to be deceived.

[26] Because if you're deceived, you don't know that you're being deceived.

[27] So you were constantly fighting to not be deceived.

[28] And your only source of hope was to listen to your parents or to listen, you know, to what they said God was saying.

[29] And it was so dangerous and it was so fraught.

[30] And it was so easy to end up going to hell.

[31] You know, everything was terrifying.

[32] It was this idea that it's this idea that we're all living in our own, it's basically the matrix.

[33] But the reality is that Satan's constantly fighting that, you know, Jesus and whatnot.

[34] And we had to, you know, if you got wrapped up and, you know, things like, I don't know, happiness, mental health, you were getting wrapped up in the physical world and you had to, you know, you were ignoring the fight and you were going to get distracted.

[35] And so it was very much like nothing else mattered.

[36] And of course, when my dad got stressed and went to the movies, that didn't count, you know, that's just what he wanted to do.

[37] So we were constantly barrauded with this sense of impending doom and you need to like hurry up and fight and hurry up and get better and hurry up and grow up and you have to do something.

[38] And, They would always say this thing of, like, you have to tell everyone you meet about Jesus because what happens if they walk away and get hit by a bus and they die and go to hell?

[39] That's your fault because you could have told them about Jesus and you didn't.

[40] And so I grew up literally with the weight of the world on my shoulders of feeling like if I acted a certain way, if we went to my grandparents' house and I said one thing out of line, I wasn't being a good Christian witness and they were going to go to hell because of me. And so they trained you to self -police.

[41] Like, not only were they controlling your every move, they got you in such a mindset that you were trying to control your own behavior to such a degree because you were terrified of showing someone that you weren't a true Christian and making them think that it wasn't real.

[42] And so then they wouldn't believe.

[43] And then they would go to hell.

[44] And that's another, you know, strike against you.

[45] They were always so good at, like, appearing normal, like, normal enough.

[46] and there was a sense of I think the church was like you don't get involved in someone else's family you don't try to tell parents how to discipline their kids or whatnot and so I think if people did see something that they were like you know that's a little weird they just had the sense of like it's not my place to do that and especially when your dad became the pastor right your dad was the head of the church so was he looked at as like an extension of God because I know you described it as a cult -like atmosphere.

[47] Yeah.

[48] So it was very much the sense of we have a mission from God and you're going to, if you join like you're coming with us.

[49] And if you at some point don't have our vision, you're out.

[50] And they were very much obsessed.

[51] And I think in some ways, I think they did try to do good.

[52] I mean, a lot of cults do try to do good.

[53] You know, even, you know, Jones Town.

[54] There were some aspects of that that, you know, before you got too deep into it that they felt like they were doing good.

[55] So my parents were very much proud of the fact that they accepted the down and outs, as they called them.

[56] We don't turn our back on the down and outs.

[57] So they were constantly reached out and befriending the drug addicts, the drug community, the alcoholics.

[58] And I think in some part of their brains they were trying to do good.

[59] And in some part of their brains, it was like a way for them to feel like they were doing good, to feel better about themselves.

[60] But that also meant I was growing up around the families of these kids.

[61] And when you have kids who are covered in headlice and suffering from all nutrition or their dad attacked them and their mom with a stun gun and is now in jail, it's really hard to look at your life and feel bad about it.

[62] And my parents would use that.

[63] My dad would always say, you know, like, you have a fantastic, like, I'm a great dad.

[64] Like, you have a fantastic life.

[65] And compared to those around us, we did.

[66] So you didn't question it.

[67] And you felt grateful, and you were glad that, at the very least, your dad wasn't trying to kill you guys.

[68] But that put us around a lot of unsavory characters.

[69] Like, I remember, I walked downstairs one day into our kitchen, and there were two guys that were hanging out with my dad a lot.

[70] One was called skinny and one was called shaky, for obvious reasons.

[71] One was shaky because he was constantly shaking.

[72] If he wasn't drunk, he would shake.

[73] And the other guy was skinny because he was on so much heroin that he was like a rake.

[74] And Shaky was standing in our kitchen, and he turned around, and his eye was, like, gouged and bloody.

[75] And apparently he had been in the bar and got into a fight, and someone had stabbed in an eye.

[76] And he came home to my dad for help.

[77] And so he was like, don't be scared, don't be scared.

[78] And, of course, me, I'm like, I'm not scared.

[79] I'm brave.

[80] But looking back, I'm like, holy crap, that's an incredibly traumatic thing to just walk down to him breakfast.

[81] So instead of seeking medical help, he went to your dad?

[82] Oh, I don't.

[83] I think my dad took him to go get medical help.

[84] Oh, okay, okay.

[85] But it was this thing of like, we have no boundaries.

[86] We open up our arms to everyone.

[87] And oh, well, if our kids get hurt because of it.

[88] Like, there were times where I remember me and my babysitters cowering under a table while a drunk guy who, consequently, it was one of those men that was having issues that my parents were trying to set up one of their lady friends with, me and that lady friend were huddled on their table while this drunk guy was trying to break in to see us.

[89] And I don't know, like, he was screaming and banging on doors.

[90] Like, I don't know what would have happened if he came in.

[91] Horrifying.

[92] So in your mind, when you're processing that, are you thinking like this person has a demon?

[93] Or in your head, did you already see that was bullshit?

[94] I always thought that was bullshit because I saw very quickly, like, you know, my ability to see things logically, I put the pieces together quite quickly that my mom was mad at someone.

[95] They had a demon.

[96] Or when she was mad at me, I was suddenly had a demon of rebellion or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[97] But you learned to kind of keep your mouth shut about stuff.

[98] Usually it was when my character was being called into question or one of my siblings was being hurt that I wouldn't shut my mouth.

[99] So, yeah, no, I knew that was, you know, he was dangerous.

[100] But there was also that side to me that was like very adventurous and was like, oh boy, if he comes in like what am I going to you know fight them with like I was one of those stupid kids who was like you know wanting someone to step to me just so I could like try out my skills it's also a coping mechanism your fight or flight response yeah well and I think as we got older my mom became more and more annoyed by how violent me and my sisters were like when I talk about my fights like I remember having a fight with my two -year -old sister I think I was four and I picked up a fire guard and hit her over the head with it so a fire guard is if you have like an open fireplace.

[101] They usually create like these metal guards that are like a half circle around them so that a kid doesn't crawl up.

[102] So I just picked that up above my head and hit it with it.

[103] Didn't even think twice.

[104] You were raised in a violent atmosphere where that was normalized.

[105] Exactly.

[106] Our favorite thing was to wrestle and to play fight.

[107] And I almost felt energized by that.

[108] And I think that was definitely a self -defense mechanism that I had.

[109] So anytime I got into like a time where I was scared, my brain would go, no, you can take him.

[110] You're big and strong, even though I was like a seven -year -old girl and couldn't have really done that much against a big drunk guy.

[111] But in my brain, I think that's what stopped me from being scared in that moment.

[112] It also, I think, trained me to be very aggressive and to see people's threats.

[113] Like that same guy came out to my parents one time.

[114] We were walking.

[115] We met him in the street.

[116] And I had my hair in plaths or braids as you guys call him and he grabbed one of my plaths and yanked on them in like a i don't know he made like this weird comment as well but i just turned around and like punched him in the stomach because he attacked me and my parents were furious and like made me apologize and in my brain i'm like he he struck first why am i in trouble like i don't understand scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[117] I'm Sachi Cole.

[118] And I'm Sarah Hagee, and we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[119] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit filed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[120] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[121] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[122] Follow Scam influencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[123] You can listen to scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[124] I'm Dan Tiberski.

[125] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[126] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[127] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[128] She's like, I can't.

[129] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[130] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[131] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[132] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[133] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[134] Yeah, yeah.

[135] Well, yeah.

[136] No, it's hysteria.

[137] It's all in your head.

[138] It's not physical.

[139] Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[140] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[141] Or is it something else entirely?

[142] Something's wrong here.

[143] Something's not right.

[144] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[145] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[146] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[147] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[148] It was this thing of like it doesn't matter what the adults do.

[149] You just have to sit and take it.

[150] And they had that kind of attitude.

[151] with a lot of things with us where it was like, you're going to hang out with the kids of these people and whatnot.

[152] And we got headlice so many times.

[153] I'm not, I'm surprised we didn't like have our head shaved.

[154] Like I remember just like months of us.

[155] My mom would make us sit in these chairs and she would put the TV on so we wouldn't move and just cover our heads in like mayo.

[156] And that was like the home remedy.

[157] You cover your hair in mayo and then you would like comb them out.

[158] And that became such a staple of my childhood for years.

[159] Like I remember that being a thing because we were friends with these kids and like the kids were the kids were nice they were they were nice and I felt really awful for them and they were in a bad situation so like you know in my brain I'm like I want to hang out with them I want to make them feel better but my parents really were just putting us in positions where anything could have happened to us and that was kind of like their martyr -esque way of looking at it like we are going to open our arms to everyone and if anything happens to us, it's God's will.

[160] Like, I remember my dad at one point being like, I don't care.

[161] Like, I'm not going to ever kill anyone.

[162] That was his thing of, like, we were watching something about World War II, and they were talking about people that were sent to jail because they didn't want to fight.

[163] And my dad's like, I would have been one of those people.

[164] And in my brain, I'm like, what?

[165] Why?

[166] You're like, perfectly fine hitting us.

[167] Like, I don't understand.

[168] And he was like, no, I don't believe it's right.

[169] And so then I think either me or where my sister were like, well, what if like someone came into the house and was hurting us or like raping us?

[170] And he was like, well, you know, I would be upset, but that's up to God.

[171] And if God's going to allow that to happen.

[172] And it was just this idea of like we were just at the will of God.

[173] And, you know, they weren't going to do much to protect us.

[174] And they were going to, you know, do what they thought was right, regardless of if it would put us in danger or not.

[175] How scary and terrifying.

[176] And also it's interesting that your dad seemed to operate as a gas lighter from the beginning saying, oh, I hate doing this, but I'm going to spank you.

[177] Yes, very much so.

[178] It was always someone else's fault.

[179] I remember even as like a like 23 year old calling him out because he shoved my sister Hannah because she got in the way of him punching one of our other siblings and he shoved her out of the way.

[180] And when I confronted him about it, he said, well, she was the child and she was being disrespectful.

[181] And I remember yelling at him being like, it is not the child's responsibility to make sure that you don't have an outburst.

[182] Like, it's your responsibility to control how you respond to that.

[183] And he was like, it was just this idea of like, I'm the parent.

[184] And if you were disrespectful to me, whatever happens to you is your fault.

[185] And it was very much this, I think growing up, the more I believe that they saw us as extensions of themselves as opposed to like loving us in their own right.

[186] So they loved us the way that they loved themselves.

[187] but the minute that we did something that hurt them or made, you know, made them uncomfortable, it was like all of a sudden we were the enemy.

[188] And they had this like selective belief slash memory because like whenever they were talking to anyone else, it was like, oh, they're gifts from God, you know, we're just stewards of them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[189] And then as soon as those, you know, backs returned, it was like, no, like we control you.

[190] Like we, you know, you belong to us.

[191] Especially because they're telling so many people how to like live their lives and what's right and what's wrong and placing themselves in that position of authority.

[192] What I've heard from other pastors kids is that you feel an even higher amount of pressure because of that.

[193] Because like you said, it's an extension of them.

[194] And so I imagine you were describing that woman that lived in the house and planted the church with them in the beginning and how you felt like she was hard on you or judging you.

[195] but perhaps she was actually just trying to argue with your mom and harm or judge her.

[196] Yeah.

[197] Because you're looked at as a piece of her, you're caught in the crossfire, essentially.

[198] Yeah, I think my parents created the narrative that she was against us and out to get us.

[199] Coming to know her now, she's an incredibly kind and loving woman.

[200] And I think my parents believed something about her.

[201] And so then I saw all of her actions through that lens.

[202] Well, we were also running to the issue of, you know, my parents had two kids and this lady and her family had two kids and people began to like those kids more than us or, you know, that was how my parents felt.

[203] My parents would get mad at us because people thought that they were the pastor's kids.

[204] And my parents were furious about that.

[205] One, because they felt like that family were trying to take their spot and take their authority.

[206] And then two, that we were seen as like troublemakers and were, you know, mistaken.

[207] for other people and other people's kids were thought to be the pastor's kids because they were so good.

[208] And so there was this constant tension there of like you have to be better or for me I definitely reacted to that out of my thing of well if you want me to be a certain way I'm going to go so far the other way.

[209] So like I remember I was like I waged an all out war and anything that the people wanted for me I would give them the opposite of like I. I remember I spent hours before a church service digging up worms out of the ground.

[210] And then I would walk around to people to go shake their hands and just stick worms in their hands and run off.

[211] Got in so much trouble for that, but I loved it.

[212] And I think because my mother was so antagonistic towards me in that way, I began to view any type of conflict as a battle for my soul.

[213] And if I gave any inch or said something or agreed to something that I didn't believe in, I felt like I was losing myself.

[214] So in a way that kind of helped me because in another way, you know, it made that any fight.

[215] I had in my marriage, my pro husband didn't understand why I was acting as if he was trying to, you know, break me down when he was just asking about how I, like, filled dishwasher.

[216] So that was definitely something we've had to unpack because I've gotten older.

[217] but it's something that served me very well as a child well yeah i can so relate when you have to constantly meeting new people is actually assessing them and their threat to you yes because the people that you're around yes we're always you're always assessing the threat and if this person was going to harm you especially considering that your parents would let people that sounds like they barely even knew live at the house and be around you now were those people you said they were allowed to punish you So are you saying that people that lived with you were physically abusive to you and your sister as well?

[218] Yes.

[219] And it ranged if the person was comfortable or not.

[220] A lot of times people weren't comfortable and they would just say, I'm just going to tell your parents, but there were other times where, yeah, we definitely got disciplined by people.

[221] And it's interesting, the books that I mentioned earlier, the Debbie and Michael Porre, which I recommend you look into because there's been a lot of cases of abuse recently and abuse allegations coming from people that.

[222] that followed that type of teaching.

[223] They basically said that not only were you to like, you know, punish your kids like that, but you were to have a ton of kids and raise the older ones to do the same.

[224] And so for a while, me and my older sister were basically given authority to punish my younger siblings.

[225] And so we grew up doing the same thing to them.

[226] And it's like it's bred into you.

[227] You were homeschooled at that time.

[228] and you mentioned that you weren't really allowed to go outside.

[229] So am I correct in assuming that all of your socialization was with people who lived in the house or people who went to the church?

[230] Yes.

[231] Now, we had kids who would come up and play in our yard because we lived on three and a half acres of land and some of it was a forest.

[232] And so the kids would come play in the forest.

[233] And if that happened, my parents would actually like try to get them to come inside and then basically sit them down and scare the living bejesus out of them until they like set a finish.

[234] prayer or until one of their parents came looking for them.

[235] Like there were multiple times where, like, kids just, like, hung out with us so long that their parents would, like, come and be like, where the hell are they, like, and be looking for them.

[236] I'm surprised we didn't get the police called on us, honestly.

[237] Kids would literally wander into play with us, and my mom would sit them down and read them horrific stories about hell until they, like, were so scared that they would say the prayer.

[238] And in my brain, part of me is like, oh, my God, mom, part of me is like, oh, yay, they're saved.

[239] I don't have to worry about this person.

[240] I like going to hell.

[241] Yeah.

[242] But other than that, it was very much like everyone.

[243] And if someone did like us or want to become friends, there was always a reason why they weren't good friends with us.

[244] And we'd always cry and be like, Mom, but we want friends.

[245] You said you're praying for us to have friends.

[246] I am praying for you, but these aren't the friends God wants for you.

[247] We have to wait for their friends that God wants for you.

[248] And they never came along, surprisingly.

[249] Did you receive an actual education when you were homeschooled or were you only taught the Bible?

[250] We were, my parents used this curriculum.

[251] them called Ace Accelerated Christian Education School of Tomorrow.

[252] There was nothing educational or accelerated about it.

[253] I left and went to college with barely any education.

[254] They barely taught you science and it was very much through like making you question evolution or like basically very much training you to be a good Christian person and very strict on gender roles, very strict on, like, how you were supposed to live and what you wanted out of life.

[255] And this was also, like, the type of education where, or the type of curriculum where in America, they used it in actual, like, Christian schools, but you were, like, taught and trained to, like, if the student misbehaved that you had to, like, spank them with a paddle.

[256] And so a lot of times in the curriculum, they would have pictures of, like, so -and -so was disobedient.

[257] And so this person disciplined them.

[258] And it would be a kid bending over getting hit with, like, a big wooden paddle.

[259] Wow.

[260] So talk about normalized in your life.

[261] Oh, 100%.

[262] Like, I grew up believing that spanking was good to the point where before I went to college, I was 17, and this guy I worked with, he had a question.

[263] He was just, he felt like, you know, I'm spanking my kids, and I just feel like it's not working.

[264] I feel like all I'm doing is spanking them.

[265] Like, you know, you were spanked a lot as a kid.

[266] Like, are you okay?

[267] Like, I'm worried I'm hurting them.

[268] And I said, oh, yeah, I'm totally fine.

[269] I was spanked multiple times a day, and I'm totally fine.

[270] Like, that's how normalized it was and how much I didn't realize things were wrong.

[271] Even with all the issues I had with my parents and all the stuff that I knew was fucked up about our lives, that was still so normalized to me as a 17 -year -old.

[272] And I hope to God he didn't listen to me. I mean, if he did take the word of a 17 -year -old, I mean, that's on him.

[273] My parents, I think, were so gung -ho, and they equated being able to spank their kids to having religious freedom.

[274] So if the government was trying to stop you from spanking their kids, they were coming after, like, your right to be able to parent as a Christian.

[275] And so a lot of people, I think, also got wrapped up in that and we're like, well, yeah, yeah, you know, like, of course we support you.

[276] Like, you know, we also don't want our rights taken away.

[277] And because of that, I think, and even now, like, in America, I think it's the same way where that ability to, you know, train your kids.

[278] in a Christian way is seen as like if you try to like control or try to like put any type of restrictions on corporal punishment they see it as oh they're coming for our religious rights or religious freedom and I think that's why my parents got away with it for so long and I no one questioned them because that was such a big part of our church and the way people believed that was drilled into us from such a young age that at some point there were so many other things to be mad about that that didn't even seem like it was one of them you know That seemed like the one thing they were doing right.

[279] Well, and it became such a, like, there were definitely things that, like, weirded me out.

[280] Like, I remember when we were young, like, my dad thought it was funny to compare me and my sister's butts to see, after we've been spanked, to see the ham prints.

[281] And he thought, like, he liked to see that.

[282] I remember being so embarrassed one morning at breakfast because he was explaining the differences and how we cry when we're spanked.

[283] And so he was mimicking me crying and then my sister crying.

[284] making fun of us for how we cried when we were spanked.

[285] And there was always this idea of like, oh, well, it's just crocodile tears or like, oh, you know, you're just crying for attention or blah, blah, blah.

[286] To the point now we're like, if I'm talking to someone and I'm fighting passionately and I start to cry, the amount of shame and frustration I feel at myself for crying, like, is unheard of.

[287] And that was the way my father was with everything.

[288] Like, even as a teenager, when I would start to cry while I was talking to him, it was just like, you're weak and you can't control yourself.

[289] Everything that you did or everything that you did to act out was always seemed as something deliberate, as opposed to like, this is a reaction you're having because you're scared or something.

[290] It was like, oh, well, you're just, you're upset and you're not getting your waist.

[291] You're acting out as opposed to like, you know, I remember my dad was pissed at me because I was depressed and I wasn't happy.

[292] You know, like there would be multiple times as a child where like I think I was having a definite reaction to something.

[293] and he would snap and be like, get that look off your face, like smile, be happy.

[294] And it was just thinking of like no negative emotions were ever allowed or ever accepted.

[295] And you, if you were having any type of emotional reaction that wasn't positive, it was you trying to manipulate the situation to get something, as opposed to you just having a legitimate experience and reaction to something.

[296] And that fucked me up hardcore.

[297] Hard core.

[298] Understandably.

[299] And do you think it also made you for a time or at times look at other people with those same motivations because you had been brainwashed to believe that people are only motivated those ways?

[300] Oh, definitely.

[301] Definitely.

[302] I growing up, my little sister Rebecca, she came at a hard time in our lives.

[303] And unfortunately, all I think of my parents' frustrations with where they were at life were put onto her.

[304] I think everything she was.

[305] was reminded my dad of my mom and he hated that.

[306] And my mom saw her as someone that she needed to protect.

[307] And so Rebecca unfortunately became their thing that they fought over.

[308] And I was very much like my father in the way I looked and the way I acted.

[309] And so I think in my mom's brain, any aggression she had against my father was put onto me. And any interaction I had with Rebecca, she saw through the lens of as my dad attacking her.

[310] Rebecca is the, well, Rebecca is technically the fourth.

[311] So part of what happened just before my parents planned at the church, and I think probably a lot of their issues going forward with their kids, my mother got pregnant and they weren't planning it, and they had a son.

[312] There were complications, and he died quite soon after he was born.

[313] My dad says that, you know, he was born.

[314] And my dad went to go get flowers for my mom and Stephen was dead when she came back.

[315] I'm so sorry.

[316] Thank you.

[317] And it was really hard for me because I think we were heartbroken, but my parents instantly went on this line of, look how amazing God is and look how not sad we are because we believe in God.

[318] Like my mom apparently would talk about how she prayed for Stephen to be resurrected and like prayed over his body.

[319] But then, you know, like gave up and knows that we'll see him in heaven.

[320] And God gave her a vision after like five years that they'd have another son or like whatever.

[321] And I remember even as a small child feeling like something bad had happened and we weren't acknowledging it.

[322] And it was this very matter of fact thing of like, yep, Stevens in heaven, blah, blah, blah.

[323] And growing up, it felt like we talked about him a lot, but it was very much in this like happy way like oh we'll see him again and blah blah blah and there was never any like grief period with my parents it was like this thing where they'd be like we should be so sad but god's comforting us with his amazing you know love and compassion and look how amazing it is and it became this like miracle thing and they would talk about yeah people look at us and they say we're crazy and they think we should be sad but we're just not and there'd be times where like I would be alone as a small child crying for my brother and I think in a way it felt like I had to agree for him because no one else would and it felt like there was no acknowledgement of the loss there and they never dealt with it and so I think when Rebecca was born they were very much triggered so it goes you Hannah Stephen Rebecca Sarah Daniel and both with Sarah and Rebecca my dad had said they were boys and was excited for them to be boys.

[324] And then they weren't.

[325] Oh.

[326] Yeah.

[327] Like he was prophesying?

[328] Mm -hmm.

[329] Yep.

[330] Because, yeah, if it was rough.

[331] I think my mother saw it as he didn't want anything to do with Rebecca and Sarah because they weren't boys.

[332] I think in reality, neither of them dealt with their trauma.

[333] And I think my dad was so traumatized with what happened with Stephen that he wasn't able to emotionally connect with the girl.

[334] because they would tell us, like, that my dad didn't want any more kids.

[335] Like, he was happy with me and Hannah.

[336] And then after the loss of Stephen, it felt like it was just this constant thing of, like, trying to get back what they lost.

[337] And so they didn't stop until they got Daniel.

[338] The older they got, the more they talked about how people were freaked out that they had so many kids, you know, because they had, like, five.

[339] And I don't think in America, that's such a shock.

[340] but in Britain, it definitely was like a lot of kids.

[341] It's a lot of kids to me, man. I think they were definitely kind of in the camp of if God gives us a child, he wants us to have it.

[342] And they were also in this weird camp of like, we need to grow the kingdom by having more kids.

[343] And it wasn't like a huge thing growing up, but the older we got, like the more my dad would rant.

[344] He would rant on and on about how, Muslim families were coming over and they had a ton of kids and because they had a ton of kids, they were gaining ground and us Christians didn't want to have kids anymore and just so bizarre.

[345] So funnily enough, the church that we were kind of affiliated with started getting weirder and weirder more into that cult -like setting.

[346] Like the guy who ran it is called Colin Urquit and I don't know if he still runs it, but I think my parents were there like in the young days.

[347] And it got to the point where he had security and you weren't allowed to talk to him.

[348] And you had to be on a certain spiritual level in order to be able to have a conversation with him, in order to be able to make an appointment to speak with him.

[349] And I don't know how they calculated those levels that they did.

[350] And so that was like, you know, as weird as my parents were, I think they were definitely being fed by like an even weirder dynamic.

[351] which makes them probably feel less extreme because yes and I think it makes sense that you know my dad being as narcissistic and needing to control things being told that you weren't spiritual enough to you know he didn't like that feeling of having to prove himself and so he began to have real issues with the church and my mom did not my mom was so like in love with that church and you know I think that I think truly that's where some of her fonder memories with our family were when we were young and you know they were at bible college and I think that became such a safe space for her.

[352] She never wanted to leave it.

[353] She's very much that way where like she is unable to, she views her life through the happy times and is unable to recognize the reality of where we are.

[354] So around this time, one of my dad's friends who went to Bible college with him came to speak at our little house church.

[355] And she told him, he was explaining his frustration and feeling like people weren't concerned with getting people saved.

[356] And, you know, that was always his big thing.

[357] Like, people had to get saved, people had to get saved.

[358] Which, you know, I think in some ways they truly did believe that stuff that they were telling us about, you know, you have to get people saved because they're going to hell.

[359] I think he did believe that.

[360] And so I think he was genuinely frustrated and freaked out and feeling like this was important and no one else cared.

[361] And she told him about a church that she had been a part of or had been affiliated with in Hawaii of all places.

[362] And I didn't even know Hawaii was a place.

[363] Like, I remember my dad saying he was going to Hawaii.

[364] And I'm like, what?

[365] And she said, I think you'll really love.

[366] like this pastor, you need to go to this conference.

[367] And my dad basically said, like, I don't have the money to go.

[368] And even if I did, like, there's better things to spend it on than that.

[369] And so he tells the story all the time.

[370] Like, she's preaching at their church, at their conference.

[371] And then she basically stands up and says, this man needs to go to this conference pointing at my dad, and you guys need to pay for it.

[372] And in Britain, that's just not a thing you do.

[373] Like, my dad was mortified and everyone else was mortified.

[374] But he said by the end of the conference, his ticket was paid for and the price of the conference was paid for.

[375] So off he went and he had a really great experience.

[376] And I think he felt very accepted and loved.

[377] And I think for whatever my dad is searching for in life, I think that's still a very big part of what he is looking for.

[378] And I think he just probably one of the first times in his life felt like he found a place where he was accepted.

[379] Not necessarily for what he believed or whatnot, but just like he just felt so happy in that place.

[380] And it was Like, he came back, and after he came back, all he wanted to do was go back there.

[381] And he felt like God was telling him that we had to go train there.

[382] And my mother absolutely did not.

[383] And that's basically what, like, ended the church.

[384] Like, our church split up, I think around the time I was nine.

[385] And it was very traumatic.

[386] And there was a lot of screaming matches.

[387] And there was a lot of, like, I remember watching my parents fight.

[388] My parents having a fight.

[389] And then one of the ladies in the church who had been a part of it, screaming, like, they were having a three -way scream.

[390] we matched at each other.

[391] And it was just very painful.

[392] It was such a broken time.

[393] And they decided that they were ending the church and that we were leaving the home that I grew up in that hunting lodge.

[394] And that was when we moved to the other church base they had, which was in the middle of the village.

[395] And basically, the next four years were us moving from place to place while my dad whittled away at my mother to let us go to Hawaii.

[396] So we, we, you know, we, We ended up moving to a tiny fishing village, north of Inverness, actually, like tiny place.

[397] It was a lot of fun, but it was also, I think, the more my father fought with my mom, the more abusive things got on both ends.

[398] And, like, growing up, I'd seen my dad be abusive every now and then, but it kind of became more of the norm living there just before we went to Hawaii.

[399] The biggest thing he ever did to my mom that I'm aware of was we were living in Art Selma, which was the Hunting Lodge and they got into a fight about something and he threw a mug at her and it hit her in the eye and she had to wear an eye patch for a month and she almost went blind and I remember right after it happened like we heard it and then my dad ran out and locked us in our rooms and told us not to talk to anyone but there was a lady who was living who was staying with us she wasn't living with us full time I think she was just there for a couple weeks and she heard what happened and confronted my father about it.

[400] And so my dad got up in front of the entire church and like basically admitted what he did and offered to step down.

[401] And it became this big thing where I watched it happen and I watched everyone turn around and say, oh my gosh, we haven't supported you enough.

[402] You know, you've been all alone.

[403] You must be so stressed.

[404] Like, how brave of you to admit what you did?

[405] Like that really shows your character.

[406] And in that moment, I knew, like, no one was ever going to help us.

[407] Like, it didn't matter.

[408] I was always impressed with my dad.

[409] My dad would always apologize.

[410] He would always come out and say exactly what he didn't apologize for it.

[411] And it was only as I got older there, I realized nothing ever changed.

[412] And we'd always be so impressed with the fact that he apologized that we'd want to move on.

[413] And then he would act exactly the same way again.

[414] And I spoke with, like, a couple of people who were.

[415] there when that happened and they said yeah we felt guilty about it and we felt like you know we had put him under stress and we weren't supporting him enough and was nobody concerned about your mom was it normalized for men to hit their wives not no it wasn't but my mother was such a fucking spitfire and i think half of those people had been in fights with my mom where they probably assumed she just pushed him to it my mom was a type of woman who he would knock her down she'd get back up and push him, you know.

[416] Like that was, that was why it was so hard, I think, to see what was happening was because she, she would, she would stand her ground on something and attack my father to the point where he would snap and lunge at her and then she would get up and lunge back at him.

[417] You know, like, she was very, like, ready to fight until this, I get my way to the point where like, even if, and then, of course, my dad would be like, oh my gosh, like, I hit you, let's, you know, do damage control and figure it out.

[418] And so she would most often get her way.

[419] And that was the frustration, I think, of we had growing up because she would never leave.

[420] You know, she didn't, she would never do anything because she was like, no, you are going to become this person.

[421] You are going to become this man. We are going to make it work.

[422] Like they would always, they would always brag about how divorce was never an option for us.

[423] We're always going to slog it out together.

[424] And all of us kids would be like, please God, divorce, let us out.

[425] And I think part of the hard part was is that, you know, it did seem like, I believe my dad, and he said he was so sorry of what he did and he knew it was wrong.

[426] And it took me a long while to realize that he could be so sorry, but yet because he wasn't doing what he needs to do to change his behavior, he could hate what he was doing, but still do it.

[427] It came to the point where I realized that I wasn't safe being around him.

[428] It was no longer a matter of, did he care or did he love us or did he feel sorry?

[429] It was, regardless of whether he does or not, he's not a safe person to be around.

[430] And I think that's where the tables are turning in our brains of, like, we need to get out.

[431] Next time.

[432] You think you know me, you don't know me well at all.

[433] You think you know me you don't know me well.

[434] Something was wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

[435] Music by Gladrags.

[436] Thank you so much to each.

[437] and every survivor for sharing their story.

[438] If you'd like to support the growth of the podcast, you can leave us a five -star review on iTunes, support the podcast on patreon .com, share the podcast with your family and friends, or support our sponsors.

[439] Websites and resources mentioned on this episode can be found linked in the episode notes.

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[446] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[447] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[448] In January 2020, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[449] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[450] What happens next?

[451] Depends on who you ask.

[452] Was it a crime of passion?

[453] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[454] This was clearly an intentional act.

[455] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[456] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[457] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[458] Everyone had an opinion.

[459] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[460] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[461] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[462] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[463] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.