#419 - Lorenzo Hagerty (Part 1)

[0] Rogan experience.

[1] Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[2] Hey.

[3] One of the cool things about the internet has been getting to find out all these other people that share these interests and really kind of what some people would think would be obscure things.

[4] And one of them is talks about psychedelics.

[5] You know, the Terrence McKenna talks, the Timothy Leary.

[6] talks.

[7] It's so rare to find a place where you can find a lot of those.

[8] And in the case of your podcast, the psychedelic salon, it's the best one I've ever found.

[9] And when I found it, I was so happy.

[10] I was like, this guy's got everything.

[11] You have like every McKenna recording like ever.

[12] All these Timothy Leary recordings and Alan Watts.

[13] I mean, who don't you have?

[14] Anybody essentially who's ever said anything weird about drugs.

[15] Well, I don't have Joe Rogan yet, so...

[16] Don't?

[17] I don't really...

[18] You know, I've had a podcast.

[19] I don't really...

[20] I could go on and we could talk about them.

[21] Well, see, you started a podcast intentionally, and mine was just accidental.

[22] No, that was it.

[23] That's the misconception.

[24] We didn't start this intentionally at all.

[25] Oh, I didn't know that.

[26] No, we just turned on a webcam once.

[27] We were doing, like, a U -stream broadcast, just screwing around, just for a goof.

[28] Well, we started the same way, then.

[29] How did you get yours on?

[30] I'm kind of a geeky guy, and I was looking at tech, and...

[31] We're actually up at a mind states conference, and I'd already produced this Plankanorte talks at Burning Man, and I had them up on the web in little 10 -minute increments to keep the file size down.

[32] And we're up at this Mind State's conference, and a guy comes out to me and says, hey, I'm going to start a podcast.

[33] Can I use all that stuff you have?

[34] And I said, sure, go ahead.

[35] I said, I thought about it, too, but I don't have an iPod, so I didn't think so.

[36] And he said, you don't need one.

[37] You can do it in your computer.

[38] So I waited a couple months, and he never started his podcast.

[39] And so I got a hold of him.

[40] I said, are you still going to do that?

[41] And he said, no. And I said, well, if you don't mind, I'm going to use them.

[42] He said, well, they're yours.

[43] So I made a podcast, I did a podcast of a talk I gave first.

[44] And then I did one that a friend of mine made of Terrence, the last one, actually he gave in Palenke, or next to last.

[45] And then I did those two.

[46] And I was trying to figure out how the tech worked.

[47] And so then I put up my stuff from Palenke -Norte.

[48] And, you know, I was still just playing around with it.

[49] And I kind of looked, and there's 10 people and maybe 20 and 30.

[50] who was, you know, downloading it probably my friends.

[51] And all of a sudden, I get contacted by this guy, KMO.

[52] And I'd been up to maybe 100 downloads.

[53] And he said, hey, I love your podcast.

[54] And these guys over in England doing the dope fiend is doing something, and he likes it.

[55] And so I started kind of hook up.

[56] What's doing the dope fiend?

[57] Oh, you don't know about the dope fiend?

[58] No, what is that?

[59] It's a great podcast.

[60] It's on the Cannabis Podcast Network.

[61] Podheads are so hilarious.

[62] You can find it at Dope Fiends.

[63] Feene .co .uk, and they're a great podcast.

[64] He's got a whole series of podcasts there.

[65] The Cannabis Network.

[66] But, yeah, he has some good music shows.

[67] In fact, I first found you during my stoner bachelor days on news radios where I first saw you.

[68] And then I was lifting to Lefty's Lounge, who's one of the podcasts on the Dopeen Network.

[69] and he plays music and comedy and all of a sudden there's some cuts from you and he says yeah Joe's got his podcast now and so that's how I found your podcast was through theirs oh that's so cool I don't I'm not even sure how I found out about yours it was so it was probably Twitter someone suggesting it online or maybe my message board it could have been I don't really remember who turned me onto it but it was more than one person and I think it was probably because like I would occasionally post like a clip that someone, you know, like on YouTube for like a McKenna lecture or something like that or one of those really cool videos that some people have done.

[70] That's one of the more amazing things about the Internet is all these user -created videos.

[71] Like I just posted one today that someone made.

[72] I have no idea who did it and they did it with things that I said on a podcast.

[73] And it's fantastic.

[74] They did a fantastic job.

[75] It's a weird thing where you can, you know, you can.

[76] a thing that you put out, all of a sudden it gets caught on by these other people, and then they add all these things to it, music and visuals, and it becomes even bigger.

[77] Like, some of these McKenna ones were a hymn giving a lecture, but they've put them to visuals and sounds, and they're just amazing, and they're super inspirational.

[78] Oh, yeah.

[79] Every week I get links to some graphic artists as done.

[80] I use the clip from your podcast, and it's just wonderful to see it because I think the visuals, really enhance what Terence has to say, or anybody has to say, you know.

[81] And, you know, I know you've had a lot of people spin -off podcasts after listening to you, and a few have done that with me. And some of them haven't stuck around, but like these two guys started a podcast called Blacklight in the Attic.

[82] And it was really cool out of Chicago.

[83] It's a great name.

[84] But what they did is they did a 12 -part YouTube video series and how to use Audacity.

[85] And it's still the best thing out there.

[86] What's audacity?

[87] Odacity is a free open -source sound hardware.

[88] software it's a audio multi -track you can do lots and lots of stuff with it really but it's free open source it's probably more used in podcasts than anything wow and but they did a 12 -part youtube thing you know and it's in every once in while i want to learn something new and audacity i go to one of those kids podcasts oh that's so cool so you must do everything yourself then you must you edit everything you put all the clips together yeah the procedure uh is i i listen to a talk first and a lot of them you know there's questions you can't hear so you have to cut those out, and you've got to boost and adjust the sound.

[89] So I get the sound as best I can, and I'm taking notes at the same time, because I put program notes and little short quotes and all, because Google and Duck, Duck Go, and those other search engines don't search the audio.

[90] And so I've made, you know, I try to get like 15, 20 quotes of Terrence in each one of his lectures so that they're searchable.

[91] But then once I have that done, then I write a script where I introduce it, and then I close out, and I write the script out and rehearse it.

[92] And I read it.

[93] Wow.

[94] So, and then, of course, you know, you've got to cut the pieces together and add the music and then turn it to MP3 file and put on the RSS feed and put it out there.

[95] So, yeah, I do the whole thing.

[96] I respect that so much because this podcast is so easy.

[97] We don't ever edit it.

[98] We go live.

[99] We just let it roll.

[100] It's go.

[101] Once it's gone, it's gone.

[102] If you fuck up, we fuck up.

[103] You know, it's got every bump possible.

[104] It's all happening live.

[105] But that's the magic of your podcast.

[106] because I've listened to quite a few of your podcasts.

[107] I listen to the comedians and my wife listens to your serious interviews.

[108] But every one of your podcasts, I wanted to jump in and talk.

[109] And I've talked to a lot of my friends that listen to it, too.

[110] And they say, yeah, man, he's just like one of us.

[111] And I want to talk with him.

[112] And I think that's the real genius of this podcast.

[113] It's just two guys or three or four or whatever sitting around talking.

[114] Isn't it hilarious?

[115] What kind of a society have we become where just a regular conversation is novel.

[116] Regular conversation is like, what the fuck are they doing?

[117] What are they just talking?

[118] Well, you know, years ago when I was living in Tampa, on a Saturday night, there's a guy named Carol Suddler who did a, I can't, chatterbox cafe.

[119] And we go down from 10 till 2.

[120] And what the thing was, it was about 12 us, sit around a table like this, and we all drink and just talk.

[121] And they could have call -ins too.

[122] And so people could essentially go to a bar without leaving their house, and you wouldn't have to drive drunk.

[123] And so the sound effects were like a bar and all.

[124] And we'd all assume characters and sit around and talk.

[125] And it was a hugely popular show.

[126] Wow.

[127] That's interesting.

[128] It's interesting.

[129] The idea of audio theater, which is basically what podcasts are, is a completely new thing.

[130] To me, at least, I mean, it kind of existed before because when I was a child, I'd listen to, like, audio recordings on a record on a large vinyl.

[131] You know, like, of course, I would listen to stand -of -comedians and cheeching and and things along those lines and you just sit around and listen.

[132] But the beautiful thing about podcasts is most of the time of people are tuning into this or enjoying this, they're doing something else.

[133] Like you're at the gym or you're driving your car or you commuting to work or commuting to school or what have you.

[134] Like you're doing something else.

[135] Exactly.

[136] And it's like the old radio.

[137] See, I grew up on radio.

[138] We didn't have a TV until I was in like sixth or seventh grade.

[139] Right.

[140] And so when I'd come home from school in the afternoon, my brother and I looked through the radio listing, just like TV Guide.

[141] You know, it was Fibber McGee and Molly in the shadow.

[142] And my dad and I on Sunday afternoon down the basement would listen to all these great shows.

[143] We had an episode of news radio where Andy Dick became obsessed with Fibber McGee and Molly.

[144] I remember that one, yeah.

[145] He was listening to all the recordings and laughing and, like, walking into walls and stuff because he was laughing so hard.

[146] And that was the first time I'd ever heard of them.

[147] I can tell you where they live, 79 Whistful Vista Drive.

[148] Wow.

[149] I listened to all the Fiverer McGee and Molly.

[150] That's so, you know, it's such an interesting.

[151] time in our society when the families used to sit around the radio and listen to like orson wells and those kind of things yeah that's all we had you know that uh you know i'm 71 now so i can go back a little ways but uh i don't feel like things have changed that much because podcasts have sort of turned into the old radio and and people walk around like you say it's a little different you're not sitting at home you know looking at a radio well in my case it's far less professional you know I'm not, it's very unprofessional podcasts.

[152] You know, I don't listen to any professional podcasts.

[153] I don't know if there is such a thing, is there?

[154] Well, yeah, there are, actually.

[155] I used to listen to Scientific American.

[156] They had a good 20 -minute one that was good, but I kind of fell away from that.

[157] A nurse at this hospital that I was going to get this procedure done recommended radio lab.

[158] And the first one that I tuned into was this one about these Kenyan runners from this very specific village and she was just going on in depth about it and then like to hear her describe this intense thing and then to actually listen to the show like radio lab's really good they have like sound effects that they play while they're giving their their talk on things they bring in people to have interviews and they sort of interject in the interview like the guy will be talking and they'll explain like why this is so significant like they'll and then let the guy talk more it's it's really interesting.

[159] Like the guy talks, but instead of interrupting him as he's talking, they just sort of edit things in after the fact.

[160] So they're having an interview with a guy, and they not just interview him, but also interject in the middle of what he's doing, like various facts and information that actually enhance the story and make it richer.

[161] Really well done.

[162] And it was all about this one tribe of runners.

[163] It's just like unbelievably awesome.

[164] And it comes to this right of passage ritual that they do with circumcision and crawling naked through.

[165] Oh, I heard you At the same tribe?

[166] Yeah, it's awful, terrible stuff.

[167] But they became like super immune to the responsive pain or to responding to pain or super, you know, determined or super, whatever it is, their level of pain tolerance or their ability to suppress it, whatever the hell it is.

[168] Well, they must be converting that pain to new kinds of energy of some kind, you know, for their long distance running.

[169] I think that.

[170] And I think it's also super critical in their society.

[171] that you get through this ritual and if you don't get through this ritual you're not thought of as a man yeah we all have our rituals and they're they're a lot less painful in most of places you know yeah that one sounds insane what's really insane was that this guy was talking about um his sons and that he didn't want his sons to go through what he had to go through and he thought personally as a person who did it that there was other ways to build character and i thought that was really interesting yeah it is It's a step in what we would call more civilized behavior.

[172] But, you know, we'll have to, you know, take generations to see what happens there.

[173] What's also love, you know, when there's, like, if you love your children, you don't want them to go through the same kind of shit that you went through.

[174] You know, if you wanted to make an interesting person, what do you do?

[175] You give them bad parenting and drop them off in a shitty neighborhood.

[176] That's not what I want for my kids.

[177] No, I don't want my kids.

[178] It didn't want my kids to grow up like I did.

[179] And I had a wonderful childhood, but, you know, it wasn't perfect.

[180] I think what we're working on now as a society.

[181] whether it's on purpose or not by by you putting out those kind of podcasts by me trying to have as many podcasts as I can what we're all working on I think is uh we're all looking at this world that we're living in and going do we have to do things this way is this this is this really necessary right and the more that word gets out it's not a violent word it's not it's just a realistic word it's a it's we're all just going come on like what do you you know we're not trying to run the world I don't want to hog up all the oil.

[182] I want to steal anybody's natural gas.

[183] But I also don't want to watch you do it.

[184] Right.

[185] I don't want to watch this crazy world we're living in where it's really obvious that things that are being done are not fair.

[186] It's really, I don't think that you can have a society the way our society is where it's so big and so disconnected and not have people that are acting in their own self -interest.

[187] But I don't think that that's the only way it can be done.

[188] I think once we become more and more connected.

[189] And I think podcasts are a big part of that.

[190] Psychedelics are a big part of that.

[191] The Internet itself, which is kind of psychedelic, is a big part of that.

[192] As those things bring people closer and closer together, I just think less of that kind of behavior is necessary.

[193] Less of it is justified.

[194] Less of it is unexplained.

[195] It's kind of all out there now.

[196] We understand people way better than we ever did.

[197] Well, we're realizing that we're all alike.

[198] When you get down to the operating, you know, below the operating system to machine code.

[199] One of my very closest friends in the world is Vietnamese.

[200] He was an eight -year -old orphan the time I was over there.

[201] I didn't know him then, but we've become really close over the years.

[202] And once we got through all the culture and the politics and the religion, I'm just talking about people stuff, you know.

[203] And his problems with his wife were the same as I was having with my girlfriend at the time.

[204] And on a human level, we realized how just identical we are.

[205] And no matter where you go in the world, you know, people are the same, except they get the overlays of culture and religion, family, and all that stuff.

[206] But if you can, you know, break through those barriers, and that's where psychedelics, I think, are very helpful, you'll find out that we're all alike, and we can figure out how to get along here.

[207] We're both different and alike, but our differences are external, the actual human being.

[208] Like, what does a person want on this life?

[209] Right.

[210] What is, we want happiness.

[211] Right.

[212] I wouldn't want to get rid of any culture.

[213] I think they're what added all the spice and the flavor to the world.

[214] We want to see the cultures, but I think we need to quit fighting.

[215] We never quit fighting.

[216] Well, there's also an issue that a lot of cultures evolve around these ideas that are outdated, antiquated, crazy, in fact.

[217] There's a lot of religious cultures that are.

[218] It's a beautiful culture.

[219] It's really interesting.

[220] Their artworks fantastic.

[221] The way they dress is really fascinating.

[222] But Jesus Christ, look how oppressive they are to each other.

[223] Look how they treat women.

[224] And look at Saudi Arabia in 2013, women have to protest for their right to drive a car.

[225] Like, holy shit.

[226] And look at the way they have to dress in that heat.

[227] And they get the black clothes, not the white ones.

[228] It's completely insane.

[229] It's old as fuck.

[230] It's ridiculous.

[231] It was from a time when people didn't know any better.

[232] Right.

[233] The idea that your God wants you to do that is beyond ridiculous.

[234] Oh, you know, it's religion is, you know, it's basically superstition when you come down to it.

[235] a huge part of it.

[236] And I get the idea that I get that people need a higher power or believe in a higher power, 100%.

[237] But if you can't see that there's the hand of man and something that tells you that you should stone homosexuals to death, you can't see the hand of man in that?

[238] You really think that that's the way a God would handle it?

[239] Why would a God invent homosexuals in the first place?

[240] If you don't think that they're doing that because they're born that way, look, I'm sure have been men who are heterosexual who are like, let's see what this fuss is all about and went over and did some gay shit.

[241] Why not?

[242] I'm sure.

[243] It happened.

[244] Nothing wrong with that.

[245] But the reality of being gay, if you've ever met anybody who's gay, is that most people who are gay always knew it from the time they were born.

[246] Now, why would your God create that?

[247] Why would your God create someone who is born in a way that makes them just by nature of existing?

[248] You're allowed to stone them to death.

[249] You should stone them to death.

[250] Well, you know, my youngest son is gay.

[251] And when he finally came out, I said, well, you know, I've been talking to your sister about this for 10 years.

[252] And he said, well, I knew I was gay that long, too.

[253] He said, I just had to get the courage to come out.

[254] And just last January, he got married in Washington, D .C. And he was kind of a big deal at the Kennedy Center.

[255] And so it was a big society wedding.

[256] And it was amazing social event with hundreds of people there and, you know, people from the State Department and everywhere.

[257] Wow.

[258] And you could tell the tables that were the old, established, straight people who came just to be polite at first.

[259] But it turned into such a wonderful party.

[260] You know, they had the wedding and then a dinner and then the reception all in the same place.

[261] And everybody stayed until the thing closed down.

[262] They were having, mainly the old people were watching the young people dance because, well, my son's husband is a principal dancer at the Susan Farrell Ballet.

[263] Wait a minute, a gay ballet dancer.

[264] This story just doesn't make any sense.

[265] You don't think there'd be...

[266] Well, there's one or two.

[267] Isn't it funny that there's certain, like, if you hear guys an interior decorator?

[268] Bam.

[269] Right.

[270] I mean, how many straight dudes?

[271] I'm sure there are some, and they get mad at me saying this right now, but I don't know why it is, but there's something about there's certain professions.

[272] And, you know, what...

[273] You really, you know, they don't look gay or act gay, but, boy, is he a hell of a dancer when you...

[274] He's a good dancer.

[275] Well, you know, that's a...

[276] always been the rumor about John Travolta.

[277] He's probably not even gay.

[278] It's probably people who are still upset about Saturday Night fever.

[279] It was too good.

[280] It was too good.

[281] It changed the way people decided to mate.

[282] But, you know, if you want to go to a fun wedding, just go to a same -sex marriage.

[283] Because it's new for them.

[284] It's something, you know, they're really celebrating something for the first time.

[285] It's a very joyous occasion.

[286] Right.

[287] They don't feel pressured into it.

[288] Like, you guys have been together for five years and he hasn't gotten you a ring.

[289] This is bullshit.

[290] You need to let him know that this is unacceptable.

[291] Yeah, gay guys don't have a girlfriend like that.

[292] They're doing it out of love.

[293] And they're a wonderful couple.

[294] Where is it legal now?

[295] How many states is gay marriage legal?

[296] I think about 15 or something like that in D .C. It's happening, right?

[297] Slowly but surely.

[298] Yeah, see, he had just moved to Florida, taking a new job, and they'd already had all these plans, but he couldn't get married in Florida, so they left everything in D .C. 15 states were, legal same sex marriage and um and then there's also more states where 34 that ban same sex marriage there's more that ban it but recently there's been a federal decision the tax department is going to recognize it no matter what state they live in this is fascinating though there's states where it's banned it's like they have banned same sex marriages 34 of them that's amazing really had to go out of the way there didn't they but it's so stupid it's so stupid it's hard to believe It's so stupid that people in this day and age decide what two people can't do because of their sex.

[299] Yeah.

[300] Like, if marriage is legal, okay, and I'm not sure it should be.

[301] But if marriage is legal, why shouldn't it be legal for gay people?

[302] It's just so sensible.

[303] It's so dumb.

[304] And it's such a weird thing to get behind.

[305] It's like, what's your end game here?

[306] Yeah.

[307] I don't understand how you're getting behind.

[308] Anybody would be getting behind this.

[309] Outside of some crazy religious belief, you've lost me. What do you care?

[310] Yeah, what do you care?

[311] And the idea that somehow I know that's going to eventually cost us money, there's some stupid arguments that you see the convoluted logic about why people being gay and getting married would make any difference or cost any more or less than them not getting married or them, you know, or straight people getting.

[312] What studies are you talking about?

[313] What do you, you know, who's doing studies on this?

[314] And these homophobes that are just insane, you know.

[315] And for what, right?

[316] They're saying, you know, that gay married or same -sex marriage now is going to.

[317] going to cause everybody to go out and rape children.

[318] I mean, they're making this stuff up that's just unbelievable.

[319] That's maybe like disinformation, maybe the, maybe the gay marriage people who are pro -gay marriage are saying shit like that just to make it such a retarded argument.

[320] Well, it's working.

[321] Clever move, you know?

[322] It is.

[323] It is.

[324] Yeah, it's one of those weird things where I can't believe it's still around.

[325] It's like, I remember when I was a kid, I've told the story, but in the interest of this particular discussion, when I was like, I guess I was a lot of.

[326] 11 years old and I'd moved from San Francisco to Florida and there's a lot of things that I didn't know San Francisco was incredibly open -minded and I really remember being very aware of the difference immediately upon moving to to Florida because I had a friend his friend his Cuban friend his name was Candy and his dad can't Candy Escadito or something like that is crazy last name I forget his last name but his dad was screaming and yelling slamming the newspaper on the table I can't believe this shit and I was like you know trying to figure out what was going on you know and I was like what's your dad mad and he goes like dad what are you mad at he's like they're letting fags get married you believe this shit they're gonna let those homos marry each other he was mad he was throwing the newspaper down I was 11 and I was like what a silly man you are you're a grown man and this is something that that bothers you and concerns you I remember thinking that an 11 year old boy like wow there's a lot of weak ass bitches out there posing as men like you dummy yeah like what do you care You were a tough guy because you care?

[327] The two guys want to kiss each other?

[328] Like, what the fuck is wrong with you?

[329] It's just so stupid.

[330] It's such a dumb thing to get behind.

[331] You know, our little granddaughters, last January, they were like four and a half and just turned eight.

[332] And I came back from the wedding, and they were still saying, now, two boys got married?

[333] Did they kiss?

[334] And I said, yeah, let me show the pictures of them now, you know?

[335] And so now they're really cool with it.

[336] And one of them the other day told her teacher about, yeah, Bapa's.

[337] little boy is married to a boy So it's going to be normal for these people It should have been normal a long time ago Yeah When I was a kid I lived in San Francisco Next to this gay couple This black guy and his boyfriend This white dude And my aunt used to go down there And they would smoke pot and play bongos naked They would all get together I was like fucking seven They would all go next door To the gay couple's house It was totally completely normal It was like there's a black guy there's an Asian guy, there's a gay guy.

[338] It's like another guy.

[339] It's like, it's no big deal.

[340] I didn't even know what the word nigger meant.

[341] When I moved to Florida, I asked my mother, and she got mad at me because she thought I was playing games.

[342] And I said, I don't know what it means.

[343] What does it mean?

[344] Because someone said it at school.

[345] And she said it's a derogatory term for black people.

[346] I was like, wow.

[347] Really?

[348] And you were, what, seven years old?

[349] I was 11.

[350] 11.

[351] That was when I first moved to Florida.

[352] Because I couldn't believe it.

[353] I hadn't experienced hardly any racism in San Francisco.

[354] San Francisco in the 70s, it was just the age of utopia had expired, right?

[355] Which is like the 1960s, the late 1960s in San Francisco.

[356] But there was still an echo of like understanding and progressive thinking in San Francisco, like no other place.

[357] Right.

[358] So it was a big difference to go from San Francisco in the 70s to fucking Gainesville, Florida, all right?

[359] Right.

[360] is just back -ass, retarded.

[361] They were feeding alligators and marshmallows in this fucking lake near my house.

[362] I mean, it was ridiculous, the difference.

[363] I moved to California from Florida, and that's where all of my kids live, but it's not fit for human habitation.

[364] I would not go back to Florida.

[365] It's a crazy fucking state.

[366] And, you know, I lived in San Francisco in late 66, early 67, and I had just gotten married, as my now ex -wife, but she was a Texan, born and raised in Houston, and she had a three -year -old son, who's my son, he's my oldest son.

[367] And I adopted him and was in the Navy.

[368] But we're in San Francisco.

[369] It's our first month living together, and she grew up in the South and called Black People Nairns.

[370] And I said, you know, we're going to have more kids.

[371] We just can't have that.

[372] And she said, well, that's just what we do.

[373] And I said, well, let's make a deal not do that.

[374] And she said, well, you're smoking.

[375] I don't want them smoking.

[376] And that's the day I quit smoking.

[377] And she never said nigger again, and I quit smoking cigarettes.

[378] But our kids are pretty well balanced.

[379] Wow, that's a great story.

[380] You know, sometimes it just takes one thing to get you to quit something stupid of smoking.

[381] Just one realization.

[382] I had to have a really important reason.

[383] I didn't want my kids growing up like that.

[384] That's beautiful.

[385] Well, you shouldn't want them growing up around someone to smoke cigarettes too, right?

[386] Well, that's true.

[387] So it's a weird thing that they did where they got that through.

[388] I mean, if you want to really look at problems that we have right now in our culture, there's a big one.

[389] And there's a big one that all these people who run for office, who get into office, they're all concerned with the loss of lives.

[390] They're all concerned with health and safety.

[391] They're all concerned with environmental pollution.

[392] They're concerned with economic growth.

[393] They're concerned with all these different things to benefit human beings.

[394] But yet they never mentioned cigarettes.

[395] I mean, you want to talk about one of the big.

[396] and most obvious pieces of evidence for a conspiracy.

[397] A conspiracy where half a fucking billion people die every year.

[398] I mean, how many fucking people die every year from cigarettes?

[399] It's like 400 ,000 in America.

[400] Right, just in this country.

[401] I don't know what it is worldwide, but it's got to be something crazy.

[402] Jamie, find out what the number is.

[403] Nobody's ever died from cannabis, you know, an OD of cannabis.

[404] Just imagine that there was an issue where 400 ,000 people died in your country, a year.

[405] 400 ,000, and yet no one brings it up ever.

[406] That's insanity.

[407] That's so hard to believe that you're not talking about 400 ,000 lifetime, which is an insane body count.

[408] That's an insane body count.

[409] More than all the wars, except civil.

[410] Think about like 19, you know, whenever they found out that cigarettes are bad for you.

[411] It was in 1950s or 60s or whatever it was where they first started going, hey, I think there's a connection between these people dying of fucking cancer and smoking on these burning chemical soaked rags.

[412] You know, there might be a connection there.

[413] Think about how many people have died since then.

[414] Millions.

[415] Many, many millions.

[416] Each year, an estimated 443 ,000 people.

[417] And now they're pushing them on the Asian kids.

[418] You know, they're really pushing cigarettes over there because it's not growing here.

[419] Put that back up.

[420] Here it says each year an estimated 443 ,000 die prematurely from smoking or exposure to secondhand smoke, which is even darker.

[421] Another 8 .6 million live with a serious illness caused by smoking.

[422] Wow, approximately 46 .6 million U .S. adults smoke cigarettes.

[423] Wow, that's scary.

[424] Well, both my father and my brother died from smoking cigarettes.

[425] That's an insane number.

[426] I didn't know it was that high.

[427] Wow, that's like understanding.

[428] That's like $4 million a decade.

[429] It's also like knowing that you've been, like your society has been infiltrated by like aliens that are designed.

[430] to kill people.

[431] If it was aliens that were killing people and not cigarettes, we would be terrified.

[432] We would feel like we're under attack.

[433] There'd be a war on cigarettes.

[434] Yeah, these aliens are killing 400 ,000 people every year.

[435] What do we do?

[436] They're making 800 million people sick as well.

[437] Like, fuck, what do we do?

[438] And, you know, people that say, well, I'm going to smoke until I'm 45 or 50 or whatever.

[439] My father and my brother both smoked until they were about 50.

[440] And they each only lived about 10 years after they quit smoking.

[441] They both died at 63.

[442] So, you know, it's all smoking.

[443] I did it.

[444] You know, it's horrible.

[445] It's amazing how many people go for that.

[446] It's amazing.

[447] Well, it's so hard to quit.

[448] You know, you have to have some kind of really big motivation because it's, it's, nicotine is more addicting than heroin.

[449] Well, I've heard that before.

[450] It sounds like it makes sense.

[451] Well, you know, the heroin addiction isn't what everybody thinks.

[452] It's not 100%.

[453] It's closer to only about 30 % really get physically addicted.

[454] Really?

[455] Yeah.

[456] It's low.

[457] Nicotine's about 75 % and heroin's about 30 %.

[458] We need to find out who those lucky bitches are that are like 25 % non -addicted to cigarette, 30 % non -addicted to heroin.

[459] Figure out who those guys are.

[460] Yeah, check their genes.

[461] Yeah, what an awesome fucking trait to have, not get addicted, you know?

[462] It's really sad.

[463] It's just, it's really sad because it's just evidence that as long as money is around, you're not looking at people's health and welfare.

[464] And most of us are addicted to caffeine, like it or not.

[465] That, you know, when you do a diet for ayahuasca, you have to go off caffeine for at least a week ahead of time.

[466] Well, in our tradition that I'm involved in, or was involved in, that caffeine was one of the things you gave up for at least a week ahead of time.

[467] And I had to start weaning myself a month ahead of time, just cutting it down less and less, because when I go cold turkey on caffeine, within three days, I'm up, standing up, standing up all night with cramps in my legs, not just the headaches.

[468] Really?

[469] Caffeine, it takes you, go cold turkey on caffeine for, even if you only drink two or three cups a day.

[470] Well, I used to, when I would stay up late writing, I would drink a shitload of coffee.

[471] And all I was concerned with was getting the writing done.

[472] And then I realized one day I woke up in the next morning, I had a fucking pounding headache.

[473] And I was like, oh, my head hurt.

[474] And I realized I just hadn't had a cup of coffee yet.

[475] And I went, no way.

[476] Like, I allowed myself to get this hooked on this shit.

[477] So I quit.

[478] Good.

[479] And then I took, like, several months off.

[480] Then I started drinking coffee conservatively since then.

[481] But I went without it for quite a while because I was just like, that's, I don't like that.

[482] Like, I had a headache from not having something.

[483] It didn't make any sense.

[484] That's stupid.

[485] Well, after I've been off it, you know, we do a week before and a week after, and after I've been off it for two weeks, a half a cup of coffee, I'll have me buzzing all day.

[486] I mean, it's a real drug.

[487] It's a great drug if you only use it once in a while.

[488] It's legit.

[489] You know, it's another thing about coffee is it's everywhere.

[490] I mean, you want to talk about a drug that you can just tap into every five steps.

[491] Well, it's the only drug that labor contracts require.

[492] You have to have a coffee break.

[493] Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?

[494] Yeah.

[495] When, you know, back in the old days, they used to smoke cigarettes in the office.

[496] Oh, the old days, let's see.

[497] Well, I guess, yeah, it was a while ago.

[498] But about 18 years ago is when they finally got rid of it where I was working at Verizon.

[499] Wow.

[500] Verizon, 18 years ago.

[501] It wasn't Verizon.

[502] It was GTE then, but, yeah.

[503] Yeah, and, you know, cubicle hell, and there was one corner.

[504] They put all the people in the one corner that were smokers, you know.

[505] And, of course, it filled the whole room anyhow.

[506] But you could see this little cloud over this one area.

[507] What year was it where they did it with airplanes?

[508] Because I remember the airplane thing.

[509] I remember a lot of airplane rides smoking, though.

[510] It's so weird.

[511] The airplane thing was so weird because I had to sit and smoking a couple times with the only seats that were available.

[512] What was the difference?

[513] Smoking.

[514] It didn't matter.

[515] But, you know, when you're trying to get a seat and that's all.

[516] All they have, sorry, all you have is smoking.

[517] No, but I mean the smoke was the same no matter where you were in the plane.

[518] That's what I felt like.

[519] And how much filtration are they even doing?

[520] Is there right?

[521] I mean, how much can they do?

[522] Where are they getting air from?

[523] I know there's been some lawsuits by flight attendants who got cancer from secondhand smoke.

[524] Oh, I would imagine.

[525] Look at flight attendants are smoking in this picture.

[526] What happened to our world where people just smoked up a fucking storm like this?

[527] Well, so there's some improvement.

[528] Yeah, but what a weird, weird, weird habit.

[529] A habit that kills half a fucking million people every year.

[530] Just in one country.

[531] Worldwide.

[532] What is the worldwide?

[533] Do we find out what the worldwide cigarette deaths are?

[534] Let me find out right here because I need to know this.

[535] This doesn't even make sense.

[536] No, and I don't think we're still subsidizing tobacco farmers, but we may be.

[537] We had been up until very recently, I know.

[538] It's hilarious, isn't it?

[539] Well, we subsidize oil companies.

[540] I didn't know about that until Anna Kusperian told me about it.

[541] I heard her talking about that.

[542] And I'll tell you what.

[543] Oil depletion allowance is part of the reason Kennedy was murdered.

[544] The oil depletion allowance in Texas is huge.

[545] Tobacco use kills 5 .4 million a year.

[546] Oh, my God.

[547] What does that one say?

[548] 8 million?

[549] 5 million deaths?

[550] That would be 8 by 2030.

[551] The one I'm looking at is World Health Organization.

[552] I'm on the CDC.

[553] I don't know which one's more legit.

[554] Either one is...

[555] 5 million, yes.

[556] It's bro, 5 million.

[557] So 5 million deaths per year.

[558] That has so many goddamn people.

[559] How can you work for that company?

[560] How do you be that company?

[561] Right.

[562] You know, but you know what?

[563] Here's the other problem.

[564] I'm pro, you doing whatever you want to do.

[565] I don't have a problem.

[566] Well, as long as it doesn't harm somebody else.

[567] Well, you know, when my dad died, that harmed my mother.

[568] Yes.

[569] You know, so smoking is harming people no matter what you're doing.

[570] And that secondhand smoke, a lot of people get cancer because they live with a smoker.

[571] Well, there are some studies that say it's even worse than smoking itself.

[572] Oh, that's ridiculous.

[573] And, you know, I grew up in a house with secondhand smoke.

[574] My dad was a smoker when I was really young.

[575] She gave it up, I think, by the time I was like seven.

[576] We had a basement workbench, and back then all the beer was in, you know, tall bottles.

[577] And my dad would be down there working in the basement.

[578] And my little brother, who was four and a half years younger me, he had a habit of going around draining the bottles that my dad had.

[579] Well, when he left a little bit of beer in the bottom one for his cigarette thing, and he dropped about three or four butts in it, and my brother, I can see.

[580] still see him spewing his puke as he ran up the stairs.

[581] Oh, God.

[582] You imagine what that must have tasted like?

[583] I don't think he drank beer as a teenager.

[584] He had a bad taste in his mouth.

[585] That's hilarious.

[586] That doesn't even seem real, does it?

[587] I mean, that seems like something if you had explained to someone who didn't understand human beings.

[588] You know, the expression is always used, if an alien came here and was viewing our culture and they saw this aspect of it, they'd be like, what the fuck are you people doing?

[589] Well, I started smoking a freshman year in high school.

[590] You know, it's the thing everybody had to do.

[591] My sister did as well.

[592] I tried it.

[593] I was a year older than her.

[594] I tried a cigarette.

[595] I was like, what the fuck is this?

[596] This is stupid.

[597] Oh, I hated it.

[598] It took me a long time to like it, but I wanted to be in the crowd, you know.

[599] I wanted to peer pressure.

[600] Well, I know a lot of people, Brian Redband, who is on the show, he just quit a couple of times.

[601] He just can't do it.

[602] He quits, and he gets right back to it.

[603] He got sick recently.

[604] He took off like nine days and got right back to it.

[605] He just gets pulled right back into it.

[606] Even those e -cigarettes, like, he doesn't even use those.

[607] You know, I don't, I just, I don't understand how people can see all these numbers and not think it applies to them.

[608] That's, that's an addiction.

[609] That's right.

[610] I know, but it's a weird one.

[611] Like, why would you kill yourself?

[612] Like, that's the weirdest one ever.

[613] Because it's so slow.

[614] God, but it's got to be, it's got to be pretty fast, though.

[615] It's almost inevitable.

[616] You say slow, but those people, they feel like shit when they walk upstairs and stuff.

[617] Like, that's not slow, man, because that's, like, diminishing your life right now.

[618] What it means to me, if you can't go up the stairs fast, if you're a normal person, and you're not old, you're not, you're not injured, and you can't walk up a flight of stairs without being out of breath.

[619] Right.

[620] Like, your life is on, like, real, like, low wattage.

[621] You got something wrong.

[622] Yeah, and you're not, you know, if you don't, that's all the energy you have, you're missing energy.

[623] Like, something has robbed you of energy.

[624] I don't know if you realize it because this new life that you have, this is just your reality it's like having water in your ears and then you clean the water out and you're like oh now i can hear like or when you pop your ears when you're coming home from an airplane ride and you're you know you feel stopped up and you pinch your nose and then blow on it so the air can't get out and your ears pop and you go oh and that's this is what it sounds like well you know my my aunt and uncle she lived into her 90s but my poor uncle died a lot younger and they were both smokers he finally quit because he had emphysema and he'd be sitting there with the oxygen and she'd be smoking right next to him, outlived him by 20 years.

[625] Of course she did.

[626] She poisoned them.

[627] It's just what a weird thing.

[628] People poison each other.

[629] Well, you know, husbands, poisoned wives.

[630] There's a great Bob Newhart stand -up.

[631] It's one of his old things where he'd sit on a stage and put it.

[632] What is that, Jamie?

[633] Is that black lungs?

[634] Black lungs and cigarettes?

[635] Black lungs, yeah.

[636] Black lungs are smokers and the other ones are...

[637] Why is it hooked up to a machine that's making them inflate?

[638] That's all that does inflate.

[639] Oh, so it's showing you what an actual black cigarette smoker's lung is like.

[640] like, wow.

[641] And this is a regular lung, a healthy lung.

[642] Oh, my God.

[643] What a difference.

[644] That's insane.

[645] You need to put your wallpaper on your computer if you're a smoker.

[646] Just the color, though, so horrifying.

[647] So you know they're not working very well.

[648] Oh, my God, they're not working well.

[649] Yeah, I know smart people that love cigarettes.

[650] It's so weird.

[651] You know, this old Bob Newhart routine, he'd sit on a chair and put a shoe to us here, and he was Sir Walter Raleigh.

[652] He was a guy in England, and Sir Walter Raleigh was calling him, telling him about the stuff he's sent him back.

[653] And he says, it's called tobacco, and it's a leaf, and you light it on fire, and what do you do with it?

[654] It's really a classic non -smoking bit.

[655] That's funny, and that was probably from 1960 or something.

[656] Oh, probably the 50s.

[657] Maybe, I don't know when he started.

[658] Is this it?

[659] Is this it?

[660] There it is.

[661] There it is, yeah.

[662] Harry, pick up your extension, will you?

[663] It's nutty wall again.

[664] The boatload of turkeys you said it's over here last November, they're still here, Walt.

[665] Yeah, they're walking all over London.

[666] See, that isn't a holiday over here, Walt, just in America.

[667] You got another winter for us, Walt, have you?

[668] You got 80 tons of it.

[669] You brought 80 tons of leaves, Walt?

[670] Oh, you're a beautiful, Walt.

[671] We have plenty of leaves over here in England.

[672] See, come fall, we're up to, it's a special kind of leaves.

[673] Some kind of food is it?

[674] What do you do with the leaves, Walt?

[675] Are you saying snuff, Walt?

[676] And what's snuff?

[677] You take a pinch of tobacco and you take it up your nose and it makes you sneeze.

[678] Good, Walt, yeah.

[679] Goes over very big there, does it?

[680] Goldenrod seems to do it over here, Walt.

[681] Tobacco has other uses.

[682] You can chew it?

[683] You can shred the leaves.

[684] You put it in a little piece of paper.

[685] You don't have to tell me, Walt, you stick it in your ear, right?

[686] Okay, Walt.

[687] And then what are you doing?

[688] Boy, you miss it.

[689] Oh, this is so funny.

[690] You spilled your coffee.

[691] What's coffee, Walt?

[692] It's a drink you make out of veen.

[693] And you pour him in a cup.

[694] You drink it in the morning while you smoke your cigarette.

[695] If you were on the boat, if you can hook him with a burning leave, I'm sure they'll go for the bean.

[696] On the boat.

[697] Don't call me anymore.

[698] Oh, that's great.

[699] What years are from?

[700] I saw it actually on the Ed Sullivan show.

[701] We used to watch that every Sunday night.

[702] Jackie Cleese on a Saturday, Ed Sullivan on Sunday.

[703] Wow.

[704] That's fascinating.

[705] The way he broke it down was really interesting.

[706] Without even bringing up the deaths, it's still hilarious.

[707] Yeah, it's like, why would you do that?

[708] Yeah, he didn't.

[709] He didn't state any of the health concerns at all.

[710] Well, this was before they were really known, too.

[711] Isn't that funny?

[712] You know, early 60s, late 50s, something like that?

[713] Did you ever see the Leonardo DiCaprio movie about J. Edgar Hoover?

[714] Ah.

[715] No, I haven't seen that.

[716] When Jay Edgar Hoover was young, he was kind of sickly, and so his doctor prescribed cigarettes.

[717] Maybe that's what made him so weird.

[718] Wanted him to smoke cigarettes when he was a young man. Like his mother in the movie is like, same.

[719] to him, you know, listen to the doctor and smoke those cigarettes.

[720] Wow.

[721] Yeah, it's, we're weird.

[722] You know, that was a peer pressure cultural thing.

[723] You started it when you were really young because other guys were doing it.

[724] The movies, you know, the movies really push cigarettes.

[725] You can't see any of those old black and white movies without I'm smoking all the time.

[726] That's true, right?

[727] And TV shows, everybody always smokes cigarettes.

[728] It was like a part of being cool.

[729] The newscasters used to smoke, you know.

[730] That's so weird.

[731] The newscasters.

[732] they are that's the one of the weirdest rungs of show business is the newscaster to me when I look at newscasting I feel like it's like I'm watching a silent movie you know like this is like some antiquated form of entertainment that we don't need anymore like the way if you watch an old like animated or an old um black and white film where it has subtitles and like Nospharato it's kind of fascinating because it's a time capsule you know you're looking into this time where this was the relevant form of medium.

[733] This is how they got their film out.

[734] It had to be like this.

[735] There was no sound.

[736] So they would play some music and then there would be like a script.

[737] And the script would be read and, you know, break in between scenes and the screen would go black.

[738] It would be live piano playing.

[739] Yeah, yeah.

[740] But if someone tried to do that today, you'd be like, what the fuck are you doing?

[741] Like, this is so stupid.

[742] Why don't you just make a movie?

[743] Like, why are you doing this?

[744] Like, let them talk.

[745] Like, why is it only written?

[746] That's so dumb.

[747] And that's sort of what it's like when you watch a newscast.

[748] It's like, why are you doing it like this?

[749] They read the news.

[750] You read the news, but you barely cover anything.

[751] You cover these little tiny three -minute chunks on super complex issues.

[752] And a minute of that is telling you what they're going to do next.

[753] Oh, yeah.

[754] And then there's just also a lot of nonsense and things that they know that people want to listen to and tune in, whether it's like, you know, Alex Baldwin grabbed a paparazzi.

[755] by the neck or something like that.

[756] It's infotainment now, not news.

[757] It's weird.

[758] It's weird.

[759] It's weird that they're still doing it.

[760] It seems like something that they should have stopped doing a long time ago.

[761] We come up with a new way to do it where I don't feel like you're bullshitting me. I don't know anybody who talks like that.

[762] There's only one new show I watch, and that's John Stewart, the Daily Show.

[763] Yes, that's a great new show.

[764] I mean, I like him because he calls out both people.

[765] He's very consistent on his...

[766] He's pretty equal opportunity.

[767] Yeah, I mean, if the Obama administration does...

[768] something silly if the Bush administration did something silly.

[769] He's really he'll go after, he definitely leans left.

[770] Oh, sure, but he'll go after Obama just as quickly as anybody else.

[771] They can't rely on that for news.

[772] It's more entertainment than the news.

[773] Well, it's the closest I get to watch in a news show.

[774] For me, it's the internet by far.

[775] The internet in a big leap.

[776] But then it becomes a matter of like, have you ever seen people getting into discussion on the internet and someone will put up an article from like the Daily Mail?

[777] And then they'll go, and the other person arguing with him be like, the Daily Mail, really?

[778] You believe a fucking link from the Daily Mail?

[779] And then it becomes, all right, well, where can I get my goddamn information from?

[780] Like, and it becomes an issue of what's the source and, you know, who's, where's the money behind this organization?

[781] Because these organizations are going to be eventually just like CBS or NBC or Fox News.

[782] It's going to be, there's going to be influences behind them.

[783] They're not going to be like, this is the raw data that we're collecting from all around the world, here it is, but also some commercials.

[784] But like, you know, during the peak of the Occupy movement, I spent hundreds of hours watching Ustream TV because you were watching the raw thing taking place.

[785] Yeah, you were really interesting.

[786] Your podcast was really interesting during that time.

[787] You did a lot of social commentary where you might not ordinarily do that, and you were talking about how important the Occupy movement was.

[788] I feel like that's the discussion about the Occupy movement is dwindled dramatically.

[789] It has, but I'll tell you the way I look at the Occupy movement, what we've seen, if they had announced in the beginning saying, okay, we're going to do phase one, and what we're going to do is raise awareness around the world that there's a big income distribution problem that we have, 1 % 99%.

[790] And we're going to show that this is true everywhere in the world and that we're living in a police state because the police are going to shut us down.

[791] If that's our only objective, that's phase one.

[792] If that was put out that way, I think they'd say, oh, it was a big success.

[793] Now, just the other day, there was a thing in the news that the Occupy New York people had $400 ,000 left in their account donations.

[794] And they took that $400 ,000, and they bought $15 million worth of credit card debt that people had run up on medical bills and forgave it all.

[795] And now they're using that knowledge that they've learned to do videos and stuff to teach people how they can do that for themselves to buy their credit card debt for pennies on the dollar instead of what they're going after them for.

[796] So, and, you know, I've got friends in Australia and the UK and a couple of places here in the States, friends, I say internet friends, I've never met them in person, that are still very interested or involved, I should say, in Occupy type activities.

[797] But what we know now is that we're not alone, that they're all around the world, there's people that are thinking like this.

[798] So it's more of a consciousness awakening than a movement, but I think it's still simmering under the surface.

[799] And, you know, it got a lot of bad press, obviously, but like I was starting to say, I spent hundreds of hours watching and interacting in chat rooms with these people and all.

[800] So I felt like, you know, I knew a little bit better what was going on than what was coming out in the press and stuff like that, because that was all slanted.

[801] And these people are really on top of things.

[802] And we do now know 1 % 99%.

[803] So nothing else.

[804] It was pretty successful as a movement that way.

[805] Well, yeah, pretty successful as a, like, a talking point.

[806] Right.

[807] And it became the talking point.

[808] Because it used to be talked about, like, the top percent.

[809] Right.

[810] Several percent, five percent, whatever it is.

[811] But then when it became the one percenters, the 99 percenters, then it became a really thing.

[812] Yeah.

[813] Everybody was like, oh, okay.

[814] Yeah, that's David Graber, I think, is the one that got credit for coming out with that.

[815] Yeah, that becomes a viral idea, and people start discussing it.

[816] Do you know that 99 % of the people in this country don't own, one percent and owns 50 percent of the wealth or whatever the fuck it is?

[817] And they're like, what?

[818] But it's actually 300 people own 45 % of the wealth.

[819] That's amazing.

[820] Those guys are ballers.

[821] Yeah.

[822] They win.

[823] I think that what's interesting about all this, I have a very optimistic view of the human race.

[824] I think ultimately people want to live a life that's harmonious and happy.

[825] I think if that's true with you and that's true with me and that's true with pretty much everybody that I know, it's got to be true with all people.

[826] So it's a matter of spreading that idea through the population as quickly as possible to as many people as possible and let them understand that the way that we've been living our lives for decades and generation after generation is just the momentum of an ignorant past.

[827] It doesn't have to be that way anymore.

[828] And it doesn't mean that you can't have government and it doesn't mean you can't have corporations and it doesn't mean that you can't have people who have more wealth than other people.

[829] It just means everything should be done fairly.

[830] And if you guys are putting laws into place that allow you to fuck people over, allow you to move your factories to Mexico and have people work for pennies in the dollar, allow...

[831] There's a lot of shit that you're being allowed to do as far as, like, polluting the environment that shouldn't be kosher.

[832] And there should be a way to resolve that.

[833] And the way to resolve that is not you spend money to change the law to make it legal for you to do something that's horrible.

[834] What should be is figure out what the fuck you can do to make sure that you don't pollute the environment, structure your law so that you don't rip people off, figure out a way to make it so that you're not in control of a giant chunk of this river that you're factories by, the pollution that leaks into it.

[835] Figure out how to make it so that you're not poisoning the wells of people in town because you're fracking and you're pulling natural gas out of the ground and destroy these people's wells.

[836] Figure out of it without doing that.

[837] And if you can't do it, don't do it.

[838] Just don't do anything where you put money in front of humanity.

[839] it seems to me like we can still have competition it seems to me we can still have capitalism it just needs to be a moral capitalism an ethical capitalism where humanity and people and just caring about people and realizing we're not going to be here forever it's a fairly short ride just be fucking nice to people and all the money that you make being an asshole and putting people out of work you're not going to appreciate that money most likely if you're in a position to put a bunch of people out of work and make a fuck load of money and fuck someone over you probably already have a lot of money you're already in a sweet spot you're in some weird position of influence but enjoy what you got you fucking stranger weird person trying to pollute the river weird asshole who doesn't care about polluting someone's wells you should be devastated if that happens you should stop operations but no because they know they can pull billions of dollars worth of natural resources out of the ground by still continuing these practices they don't even consider not doing it they just do it they just keep doing it And they find ways to do it where it harms less or has less of an environmental impact, allegedly.

[840] You know, I mean, I don't even know what the numbers are.

[841] But the raw data shows that they fucked up a lot of areas doing this stuff.

[842] But no one's talking about stopping doing it.

[843] They're just going for it.

[844] But see, you've hit the nail on the head is that it's not about regulating things from the top down and trying to get people to change their ways.

[845] It's getting people to change themselves.

[846] Yes.

[847] And one of good examples of a corporation is Dr. Bonner's, the soap company, Dr. Bonner...

[848] That's the hemp soap.

[849] Yes.

[850] They might be hippies.

[851] What do you think?

[852] Well, he has, when the guy was, I think he was like 25 years old when his dad died and he had to take over the company and didn't really want to.

[853] But he, one of the first things he did, it says nobody in the company can make more than five times the lowest paid person in the company.

[854] Wow.

[855] And he's got a really, you know, a very conscientious, conscious company.

[856] And I've read, you know, there's a lot of others like that.

[857] And it's got to be from the bottom up where they just start doing it and they're successful.

[858] He's competing in the soap business.

[859] And, in fact, if you go to Burning Man, it's the only soap that'll get all that dust off your hands.

[860] If you go to Burning Man, you've got other problems.

[861] Somebody on Twitter told me I should get you to go to Burning Man. Yeah, people keep asking me to go to Burning Man. Look, I meet plenty of dirty hippies in my everyday life.

[862] There's too many of them there.

[863] Well, you know, I don't like camping.

[864] I don't enjoy the desert.

[865] I can't stand the heat.

[866] And I couldn't wait to get back.

[867] But I stopped going.

[868] I haven't gone since 2007 now.

[869] Good move.

[870] It's become commercialized.

[871] Oh, yeah, and it's so expensive, and then you're offline for like two months afterwards trying to recover, but it was, the times I went were some of the most spectacular time.

[872] I'm obviously talking shit because I've never been.

[873] I don't want all the people that actually go and enjoy it, don't think I'm being serious.

[874] Go have a good time.

[875] And I know that most of you are probably cool as fuck.

[876] The problem is there's that small percentage that's going to be so annoying that I can't go.

[877] You know, that's one of the things that was kind of unique about.

[878] Burning Man, I thought, is that, in fact, it was the first year we went, camp across from us was starting the afternoon, you know, some loud music and all.

[879] And we had a bunch of people just sitting around talking.

[880] And so one of the ladies in our camp took a tray full of cold beers and popsicles over to them and said, can we bribe you to turn the music off for a couple hours?

[881] And, oh, sure.

[882] And they turned it off.

[883] And, you know, it's a functioning anarchy is what it is.

[884] Right.

[885] Well, that's very nice.

[886] That's a great example.

[887] And you're right.

[888] It's gotten, I wouldn't say commercial, but it's gotten really big.

[889] But one of the, one of the, one of the, one of the the people who I know was at this year's camp, and she's been there, I think, 19 years in a row and said this was the best year she'd ever been.

[890] Now, when I started going, it was like 25 ,000 people, and it was much more manageable than 60 -some now.

[891] Well, for the most part, I mean, and this is pretty much almost anywhere I go when I run into people that want to talk about things.

[892] It's a cool conversation.

[893] For the most part, 99 % of time.

[894] But there's always that 1 %, maybe 1 out of 100, it might be even less than that, where someone just gives you a brutal ear beating on the power of crystals.

[895] And you're like, oh, Jesus, we stop.

[896] Or someone who they know who's a healer.

[897] You're like, oh, Christ.

[898] Someone who they know that channels.

[899] This guy fucking talking to me about a channeler the other day.

[900] I was like, please stop.

[901] Well, they used to call them schizophrenics, but...

[902] Whatever it is.

[903] It's like, you know, come on, man. If you're not channeling, shut the fuck up.

[904] If you are channeling, let me see it.

[905] Because if you're not channeling, if you've never channeled, how do you know what's going on there?

[906] You don't know what's going on there.

[907] This could be a lot of factors.

[908] You know, that guy might be losing his marbles right there.

[909] You might be watching an act.

[910] You might be watching a crazy person who needs a lot of attention.

[911] I guess I miss those people at Burning Man. I was into the drugs and booze part.

[912] Well, this wasn't even at Burning Man. This is just a conversation with someone.

[913] One of the weird things about the podcast is so many people have to talk to me about something.

[914] They have this idea that they have to tell me. And, you know, many times it's very interesting, but many times it's not.

[915] And many times it's like just brutal nonsense.

[916] feel like okay I have this friend of mine who believes in psychics and he's going on and on about the psychic who told him everything about his life and I go everything about your life and he goes yeah I go do you tell you any shit you don't know he goes no and I go well don't you think that's weird he goes dude he knew about my grandmother I go don't you know about your grandmother why do you want someone to tell you shit you already know did you ever think that maybe you've been manipulated and maybe he structured questions in a way that got you to reveal certain information or think that you were not answering it for him but he was leading you in a certain direction did you ever think that that might be possible and he like paused like no he goes i never even thought about it i go we should probably think about that yeah a lot of people get sucked into these things without giving it thought you know and then some of them you know in the psychedelic realm it's it's even goofier people come up to you but yeah at one time at a conference a friend of mine had just given his presentation and i went up to say something to him and he was surrounded by a bunch of people and there's this one girl who is obviously just really whacked out on something.

[917] She had spiked purple hair and she's piercings everywhere and she couldn't stand still and she's bouncing around and she says well how come people don't approve of psychedelics?

[918] And he said well they're afraid they're going to turn out like you.

[919] Whoa that is an issue.

[920] Yeah.

[921] It's an issue with potheads too.

[922] Oh yeah.

[923] A lot of what lazy sloppy potheads that just you know they're they're so loathsome to be around that they make you connect that behavior to marijuana.

[924] When I was a kid, I thought that marijuana made you lazy, and I had all these negative things attached to it, until I met my friend Eddie Bravo, who was a smart guy, he was very articulate, and he liked to smoke pot and talk about all these crazy things, and like to make his music when he was high.

[925] I was like, you make music when you?

[926] I thought it was just like something to turn you to a moron.

[927] He was like, I didn't want to get like that.

[928] And he was like, no, no, no. It enhances your creativity.

[929] And once I immediately started smoking pot, or once I started smoking pot, I immediately started resenting all the dopey stereotypical potheads.

[930] I was like, God damn, you guys ruined something that's amazing.

[931] Shape up here, yeah.

[932] You ruined the image of something that's amazing by being a knucklehead.

[933] You know, I had the experience when I was working back in the phone company, and one of the guys I worked for was a vice president.

[934] He was pretty far up there, and we worked really closely together for almost a year.

[935] And I won't go into the whole story, but after about a year, we're out dinner one night, and he says, he was making a confession for a reason.

[936] And he said, well, I smoke pot.

[937] And I said, really?

[938] Let's go to my house right now.

[939] Now, we'd work together for a year in a really high -powered environment.

[940] And I found out later that he's going up to the car two or three times during the day to have a few toks.

[941] So you can function pretty highly if you know what you're doing.

[942] Oh, you can definitely function pretty highly, especially if you get used to it.

[943] The way I describe it is it's like surfing.

[944] You watch a guy who's a really good surfer or a girl is a really good surf.

[945] surfer, man, they can ride some crazy waves, but if you put me on a surf poor, I'm falling flat on my fucking stupid face.

[946] I can't surf at all.

[947] I've never done it.

[948] So if I tried it, I'm sure I would suck at it.

[949] I tried it once, and I sucked at it.

[950] Marijuana smoking is like riding a psychedelic wave, and there's a wave of the psychoactive substance, THC, that hits your body, and you can either ride that wave, or you can trip out on the fact that you're on this wave.

[951] and freak out and, you know, start getting paranoid or going down dark places in your mind or, you know, just spiral.

[952] That's possible, too.

[953] But once you get good at it, you don't, that doesn't happen very often.

[954] It's like you understand the state.

[955] You've probably been smoking pot longer than I have.

[956] That's impossible.

[957] I had my first toke in 1985.

[958] No, I started smoking pot in 2001.

[959] Oh, okay.

[960] Yeah.

[961] You're another late bloomer.

[962] I thought it was, yeah.

[963] I thought it was stupid until I was like 30 or something like that.

[964] I thought it was so dumb.

[965] I was like, this is the stupidest thing ever.

[966] These people were wasting their lives, smoking pot.

[967] I didn't know how at first.

[968] Yeah, I'd been a smoker, and, you know, I got this pot, and I wasn't inhaling properly.

[969] Really?

[970] And I smoked lives on my third joint.

[971] And it was like over a period of three or four weeks, and finally I got really, all of a sudden I figured it out, you know.

[972] Oh, you got to inhale it.

[973] And the woman that had given me the cigarettes.

[974] I called her at work.

[975] I was off, and I called her at work.

[976] I said, it works.

[977] I got stone.

[978] Just don't shout.

[979] That's fine.

[980] Keep it down.

[981] The walls have ears.

[982] But it took me a while to even learn how.

[983] Yeah, there's a lot of people that are worried about people finding out they smoke pot.

[984] Oh, yeah.

[985] I think that's hilarious.

[986] But, you know, not out here anymore.

[987] Not as much, but still in a lot of ways.

[988] Like, I've had, you know, conversations with people.

[989] They go, you know, hey, you ever face any repercussions because you talk about pot?

[990] And I'm like, realistically, anybody that would be upset with me because they found out that I smoked pot, I really don't want to talk to them anyway.

[991] Right.

[992] Like, if they don't like me, I probably wouldn't like them anyway.

[993] Like, that's such a stupid stance to take.

[994] Yeah.

[995] Like, just listen to what I have to say about it.

[996] And if it doesn't make sense to you, that's one thing.

[997] But if you're upset at me because you found out that I smoked pot, okay.

[998] Take care.

[999] You know, I worried about that at one time.

[1000] But finally, you know, I've done the podcast now, and I'm pretty much out of the closet.

[1001] But I still get a little resistance from people in the family that are unhappy with it.

[1002] Well, I've had friends that have had some serious drug issues.

[1003] and I've also had people that I've talked to that were like real straight edge and one of the reason why they were straight edge is like maybe they lost a family member to addiction and I've had conversations with them about it before where I totally understand that and I totally get that mindset and I probably would have been in that mindset myself if it not for several people that I met in my life because I'd lost a friend to heroin and I lost a friend in high school to heroin, two people to heroin actually that I know But more than that, I think I've lost at least one other ones to pills, to like opiate pills.

[1004] So I guess that would be considered along the same lines.

[1005] And I could get the idea where people would be upset at people that smoke pot or whatever, anything, because they would think they would connect it to, you know, losing their family members.

[1006] But, man, it's unfortunate that the word drug is such a broad term.

[1007] Well, see, that's one of the reasons I'm doing what I'm doing is because with proper drug education, those guys might still be alive, you know, that we don't educate.

[1008] just say no instead of K -N -O -W.

[1009] And so, you know, I think that if we can just get a couple more generations behind us where people are not so oppressed by them.

[1010] One of my favorite stories I got from a kid listening to the podcast, when he was like, he just got out of high school, he's 18, his father caught him growing mushrooms in his closet and turned him in the police, and the kid wound up doing hard time, the felon.

[1011] And so he came back out of jail, and he just went.

[1012] started going to church with him three or four times a week and became a fundamentalist Christian again and just went through the exercises.

[1013] Then he found the salon and realized that, hey, he wasn't crazy.

[1014] There's other people that do this too.

[1015] He got himself a fast food job, saved up his money.

[1016] He's out in the West Coast working as an artist right now.

[1017] And so he got out of that oppressive atmosphere.

[1018] That's fascinating.

[1019] That's a great story.

[1020] I had gay kids tell me they've come out of the closet being gay, but they're afraid to tell their parents that they're psychedelic or they smoke pot.

[1021] Wow.

[1022] Think about that.

[1023] That's fascinating.

[1024] You could have a great smoke pot or smoke pole joke there, but don't do it.

[1025] It's not worth it.

[1026] Don't go for it.

[1027] Yeah, I did a podcast, Daniel Jabor, a young man up in San Francisco, that started the Psychedelic Society up there.

[1028] He started it like just two years ago, and he's got 4 ,000 members already.

[1029] Oh, wow.

[1030] 4 ,000 members?

[1031] Yeah, 4 ,000, yeah.

[1032] That's amazing.

[1033] He's a young guy, I think he's mid -20s, and he said he went to college and never smoked pot until he got to college and got into pot and mushrooms, and now he started.

[1034] of the Psychedelic Society of San Francisco and has 4 ,000 members, and he's a drug advocate, you know, activist.

[1035] But anyhow, he has a, he did a talk that I podcast called Coming Out of the Psychedelic Closet, and I got a letter in the mail the other day from a kid that he sent a little drawing he did of the closet with his name on it, and he says, I just can't come out of it yet.

[1036] Wow.

[1037] But, you know, if I was still in the work -a -day world, working in the belly of the beast, I, I, I, uh, now in California or someplace with medical marijuana, I'd probably be honest about that, but I would never talk about psychedelics in the corporate world.

[1038] I mean, that's a quick way to get fired.

[1039] Yeah, it's fascinating that you can't talk about an experience even that you've had 10 years ago.

[1040] Right.

[1041] They'll label you as some crazy hippie that's trying to clean his act up.

[1042] You know, you're what?

[1043] You're trying to pretend that you're one of us, normal.

[1044] You're just a fucking dirty hippie doing acid in your lunch break.

[1045] Right.

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] Yeah, I missed the hippie thing.

[1048] I was in the Navy then, so I'm doing mine at this stage of my life instead.

[1049] You were in the Navy in the 60s?

[1050] Yeah, yeah, 66 to 70.

[1051] I was in Vietnam and off the coast with the Navy.

[1052] And actually, my wife was a Navy nurse, too, so we were both in the Navy then.

[1053] That's amazing, man. What did you do back then?

[1054] Was there any substances in your life, alcohol?

[1055] Alcohol, lots and lots of alcohol.

[1056] In fact, I can tell you where I was in the day you were born.

[1057] Wow.

[1058] You were born in 67?

[1059] Yes.

[1060] I was in the Officers Club at Subic Bay.

[1061] in the Philippines.

[1062] We were on a break from the gun line.

[1063] And the reason I remember it, because I was drinking my first flaming flagon celebrating my 25th birthday.

[1064] Wow.

[1065] You were born on the same day.

[1066] That's amazing.

[1067] And the reason that the flaming flagon was one of the traditions in our wardroom, and it was a brandy sniffer, and you'd light the brandy on fire, and then you'd sip it down with brandy on fire.

[1068] Well, it was in the afternoon, we didn't realize the brandy had been burning a while.

[1069] And by the time, I didn't have any problem getting liquid down, but I burnt my lip on the damn glass.

[1070] It was so hot.

[1071] But anyhow, on my 25th birthday was your born day.

[1072] Wow.

[1073] And you're all getting fucked up.

[1074] Well, in celebration, the world.

[1075] Hey, world, Joe Rogan has arrived.

[1076] The whole wardroom went out and celebrated.

[1077] Wow.

[1078] And burnt their lips.

[1079] And only me. They weren't dumb enough to do that.

[1080] But no, I didn't have anything until I was 42 years old.

[1081] Was it around you at all?

[1082] Did you see it anywhere?

[1083] You know, I went through college without even hearing the word marijuana.

[1084] What?

[1085] Where'd you go to school, the moon?

[1086] I graduated in 64.

[1087] I went to a small boys college in the Midwest called Notre Dame.

[1088] You went to Notre Dame when you never heard about weed?

[1089] Not in 60 to 64.

[1090] That's insane.

[1091] How is that possible?

[1092] It wasn't there.

[1093] Oh, my God.

[1094] That's amazing.

[1095] It wasn't there.

[1096] What was that like?

[1097] Oh, well, it was very repressive.

[1098] I would imagine it would be very, very strange.

[1099] You know, there were no girls there, and we had to get up at least three days a week.

[1100] You had to sign in outside the chapel between 7 and 7 .30, fully dressed.

[1101] Lights out were at 10 .30, and lights out was pretty serious.

[1102] You couldn't have an electric clock or an electric blanket because they cut off the electricity to your room.

[1103] And I had a classmate kicked out of school for studying by candlelight.

[1104] I mean, that's how repressive it was.

[1105] It was really a backward place.

[1106] Studying by candlelight got you kicked out of school?

[1107] Yeah, probably because he stole the candles from the grotto or something.

[1108] Oh.

[1109] No, no, it was for studying my candlelight, so I got kicked out of school.

[1110] Wow.

[1111] That's so dumb.

[1112] Oh, it was a crazy place, you know.

[1113] That's so insanely dumb.

[1114] We were the only class up until recently, I think, that never once saw a winning football team.

[1115] Four years of losses.

[1116] Wow.

[1117] And so I parlayed that by selling my four -year books on eBay, and I marketed it that way, and somebody bought them for $156.

[1118] That's funny.

[1119] That's interesting.

[1120] What a weird time.

[1121] But I was living in Dallas, and I was 42 years old when Ecstasy hit the streets, MDMA.

[1122] And I'd never taken any drugs.

[1123] I didn't even smoke pot, came out of the Navy and everything.

[1124] You were an attorney, right?

[1125] Yeah, in Houston, I was an attorney.

[1126] Then in Dallas, I started a computer company.

[1127] I had a personal computer company that, well, in 1981, we outgrossed Microsoft.

[1128] You know, I had four -color picture in Forbes magazine, made the front page of the Wall Street Journal.

[1129] Really?

[1130] Then IBM came in and crushed us like a bug.

[1131] Wow.

[1132] What was the name of your computer company?

[1133] Ready for this is in Dallas, Texas.

[1134] I named it Dynasty.

[1135] Oh, my goodness.

[1136] Dynasty Computer Corporation.

[1137] That's hilarious.

[1138] It was, we were the Amway of computers.

[1139] I had like 3 ,000 distributors around the country, and it was crazy.

[1140] And we sold this machine.

[1141] You want to hear this?

[1142] I don't know.

[1143] Sure, yeah.

[1144] It was an 8K machine with 16K of RAM.

[1145] Wow.

[1146] And it was a 12 -inch black and white monitor and a cassette.

[1147] Tape deck is what we use for input and output.

[1148] And you'd have to load your boot program, and then you'd get a CRC error, so you adjust the tone and rewind it and then load it again.

[1149] And we sold hundreds of these for $3 ,000 each.

[1150] Wow.

[1151] And parents would say, you know, why do I need this?

[1152] You know, you've got recipe program and Pong and a couple games.

[1153] And I said, I don't know why you need it, but if your kids don't have this, they're going to be left behind when they're 30 years old.

[1154] And later, I was talking at one of the Java conventions in San Francisco, and a guy came up to me and gave me his card and he's CEO of a company like 100 programmers and all.

[1155] And he said, you don't remember me, do you?

[1156] And I said, no. He says, my dad bought a computer from you, and you told him that it would help me. Wow.

[1157] So I don't know if anybody else got help, but at least one customer turned out with.

[1158] What year was this?

[1159] Let's see, we went out of business.

[1160] I started in 79, 79, and we made it till late.

[1161] Wow.

[1162] And it was great.

[1163] It was, you know, you heard of the dot -com bubble, well, this was the PC bubble.

[1164] It was before IBM got in, and, you know, we'd run short on memory chips, and I'd call up my friend at Osborne, he'd ship me some, and then when I got some back, I'd ship him.

[1165] And it was a closed network.

[1166] It was a pretty good old boy thing, you know.

[1167] Fascinating.

[1168] And it was a lot of fun.

[1169] It was great fun, but we didn't know what we were doing.

[1170] You know, we were geeks, and I didn't know anything about cash flow or business.

[1171] You know, I'd been an electrical engineer and a lawyer, but I didn't know anything about business.

[1172] And so we just sold ourselves out of business.

[1173] And by the time we were done, the last six, well, eight, nine months, I was financing the thing by selling ecstasy.

[1174] What?

[1175] So how did the ecstasy come into play?

[1176] I was doing this computer thing.

[1177] And a close friend of mine, a lawyer in Biloxi called me one day.

[1178] And he says, what do you know about ecstasy?

[1179] And I said, what do you mean?

[1180] And he said, well, it's a drug.

[1181] And I said, well, I don't do drugs.

[1182] And he says, it's legal.

[1183] You know, now this is in Texas.

[1184] And at that time, you're getting 30 years to life for a single joint.

[1185] And so there's no way I'd touch something like that, you know.

[1186] And I'd get to bars and all.

[1187] Yeah.

[1188] For one joint.

[1189] Yeah.

[1190] And so he says, no, this is legal.

[1191] And I had a friend, a friend of my wife, actually, and she was a model in town, ran with a fast crowd, and I met with her, and she fixed me up.

[1192] And so I got involved, and then my friend wanted some.

[1193] I sent him 50, and I started telling friends about it.

[1194] And I became really evangelical about it.

[1195] And pretty soon I'm buying home.

[1196] hundreds and 500, 600, and I didn't realize that at the time, the guy I was buying from was actually the main man and the big guy that started.

[1197] See, Existee hit the street in Dallas.

[1198] It'd been out here in West Coast for several years with the therapist and all.

[1199] But Dallas and the Stark Club was the ground zero.

[1200] And the Stark Club was just, the Stark Club was so big, Madonna moved to Dallas to be close to that club.

[1201] What?

[1202] Yes.

[1203] There's a documentary going to be coming out soon called the Stark Project.

[1204] And it was an insane place.

[1205] It's really the genesis of house music before even Chicago was called Stark Club music.

[1206] And there were bowls of ecstasy on the bar where you go buy, you know, give them 20 bucks and get a hit because it's all legal.

[1207] And, you know, they had chill space.

[1208] It was a crazy place that you would, it was like burning man in a building.

[1209] In fact, Larry Hagman was a regular there.

[1210] And in this movie that's coming out, he's quoted as saying he lights up and he says oh it was the greatest party on earth he says the only better party is burning man but that's like putting a stark club in the middle of a desert but some people would get all dressed up burning man type and we're talking name brand people you know the talking heads and people like that madonna even w showed up george w had been there and uh it was it was just wild and crazy and they played this house music and they had a chill space and co -ed bathrooms it's just a wild place.

[1211] And that's really where ecstasy started spreading.

[1212] Now, I was selling to all of my friends and a lot of coworkers and everybody.

[1213] And we were really serious about it, that I would make people read whatever literature there was, you know, there wasn't very much.

[1214] There's a speech Sasha gave and a talk that Rick Doblin had given at the International Health Organization, but not much, but we were really serious.

[1215] And I was sort of not in the club scene.

[1216] I was getting people together in small groups and doing it.

[1217] But I saw it.

[1218] sold a lot of X. And I was getting deep discounts.

[1219] And so I was using that money to cash flow my business.

[1220] When you say Sasha, do you mean Sasha Shulgin?

[1221] A lot of folks don't know what you're talking about.

[1222] Okay, I'm sorry.

[1223] Sasha Shulgin is the guy that he didn't invent MDMA, but he resurrected it.

[1224] It was patented in the early 1900s.

[1225] And he resynthesized it and wrote a paper about it that hit the underground.

[1226] But most of what I call the ABC chemicals came from Sasha Shulgin, you know, 2CB, 2C, I, all those things.

[1227] Did you ever see the Vice documentary where Hamilton Morris interviews Sasha Shulgin?

[1228] I don't think I saw that one, no. By the way, I think that's the only time I've ever said that word in my life, Shulgin.

[1229] Sasha Shulgin.

[1230] I've never said, he's one of those names that I've read his name a hundred times, but I never said it.

[1231] Yeah, a really interesting vice documentary where Hamilton Morris went and met with him and had a long day with him, and he went over different compounds with him and talked about discoveries.

[1232] and, you know, what he found and, you know.

[1233] Sasha was a regular at the Palenke seminars, and we'd sit down and we, a whole bunch of us.

[1234] I've had a few one -on -one conversations with him, but we always talked about things like the Navy.

[1235] He was in the Navy in World War II, but the chemists would come on, and they would start talking ABC, XYZ.

[1236] What are his acronym books?

[1237] He has these books?

[1238] Peacall and T -Col.

[1239] Yes.

[1240] Phenethyl -A -means, I have known and loved, and tryptamines I have known and loved, or the two acronyons.

[1241] And the first parts of the book are like a novel, and they use fictional names, which is about Anne and Sasha and their friends.

[1242] And then the last half of the book is a recipe section.

[1243] And there are literally probably well over a thousand chemicals there.

[1244] And if you look in the index, the ones in bold are the ones that are psychoactive.

[1245] And so actually before 9 -11 happened, I was a part of a study group where we were kind of working our way through it.

[1246] And every two weeks, we get this little powder in the mail and, you know, experiment with it and try it.

[1247] And then, you know, 9 -11 came, and they started sending, what, smallpox or whatever it was through the mail.

[1248] Anthrax.

[1249] Yeah.

[1250] And so, you know, this chemist was out of the country, and he says, I'm not sending any more powder through the U .S. mail.

[1251] So that ended that experiment.

[1252] But a lot of the things you're hearing about now are things that are coming out of his books.

[1253] He is, he's really declining now, but he should have gotten a Nobel Prize.

[1254] Now, the way he would do this is he'd get an idea for a chemical.

[1255] He'd say, well, what if I move this atom over to this part of the ring?

[1256] And then he'd synthesize that.

[1257] And then he'd start out with what he would think to be a substandard dose, a real low dose.

[1258] And he'd work his way up over the period of a month or so.

[1259] And he did this with like a thousand chemicals.

[1260] It did all to himself.

[1261] Until he finally found out what the active dose was.

[1262] And then he had a group of people, which I've met several of them.

[1263] There's only one or two of them still alive, actually.

[1264] But they were all in their 60s and 70s.

[1265] and they're the ones that are talked about in the front part of the book and then in the back part where he synthesizes it there's all these comments of people that took them and I've seen the original documents for these comments for each paragraph there's like 16 pages single space typed I mean this was in -depth research that they did for a number of years over hundreds of compounds Did you imagine being friends with that guy while this was all going on every day what are you doing today we're going to the center of the universe you want to come Oh, man, I did that yesterday.

[1266] Don't you guys take a day off?

[1267] And I'll tell you what, if you sat down and talked with him when, you know, he's declining mentally a little bit and he's blind now.

[1268] But if you sat down and talked with him, you would think that he'd been your next -door neighbor growing up.

[1269] You know, he could talk to you about anything.

[1270] And he was one of the happiest people, I know.

[1271] I'm sure.

[1272] He's probably never sobered up.

[1273] No, but he's a serious scientist.

[1274] He's a very serious scientist.

[1275] Well, there's nothing wrong with that as well.

[1276] You know, the idea of being a serious scientist and, you know, not experimenting with your consciousness, being mutually exclusive.

[1277] You might be able to find a picture of Sasha in his lab.

[1278] His lab was an old potting shed out behind his house.

[1279] It's still there.

[1280] And they've now bottled up everything and they want to get to the Smithsonian or something.

[1281] But you look at it and you say, God, this is a mad scientist place.

[1282] You know, all this stuff came out of just such a small little shed.

[1283] Yeah, Hamilton Morris actually went in the shed.

[1284] Oh, yeah.

[1285] They were reviewing.

[1286] Yeah, that's it.

[1287] right there.

[1288] Yeah, there it is.

[1289] I mean, this is a leaky old potting shed.

[1290] That's what your shed looks like if you've done drugs a million times.

[1291] It just starts looking like that.

[1292] I mean, that guy's done every drug there is a million times over.

[1293] But, you know, he doesn't like pot.

[1294] Wow.

[1295] I put out a podcast once where he and his wife are talking, and he's talking about this one experience that they had, and he says, oh, it was awesome.

[1296] You know, we stopped time, and we actually stopped it.

[1297] He says, I don't know why we started that clock again.

[1298] and she said, well, you chickened out.

[1299] And he said, what were we on that time?

[1300] She said, brownies.

[1301] But normally, he doesn't like pot.

[1302] I know probably about 25 % of the psychedelic people just don't get along with pot.

[1303] That's interesting.

[1304] What's the number one concern?

[1305] They don't like it.

[1306] They just, they don't like it.

[1307] I wonder if it's the self -examatory aspects of it.

[1308] Well, some of these chemicals get pretty self -examatory examinerary.

[1309] It's true.

[1310] Acid for sure.

[1311] Mushrooms for sure.

[1312] Yeah, I don't know.

[1313] There's a real abrasive quality to eat.

[1314] pot, you know, is an abrasive, self -examatory thing that a lot of people find very uncomfortable.

[1315] Yeah, and you've got to really practice with each dose until you get the right amount, too.

[1316] Yes, you do.

[1317] And you really don't know.

[1318] Like, you're getting a cookie from somebody.

[1319] Unless you even, even if you made them yourself, you know, you have to, like, test out East Batch and go, well, this is a strong batch, or this is not a strong batch, or this one, you know.

[1320] But we had a friend who, at a going away party last night we were in Palenke, we had this little party and somebody made some brownies, and they said, don't eat more than a quarter of one.

[1321] And she got there late.

[1322] Famous last words.

[1323] And she ate two brownies.

[1324] Oh, no. That was on a Saturday night, and the following Tuesday, she was still too stoned to go to work.

[1325] Oh, my God.

[1326] That's an excuse.

[1327] She's a lazy bitch.

[1328] She just didn't want to go to work.

[1329] I got stone one time that it lasted over 24 hours.

[1330] Oh, God.

[1331] They were, we had his friend that was making this Delta 9.

[1332] It was just pure, they take over a pound of hash and it'd go down to like one gram.

[1333] Oh my god.

[1334] And it was in these little bottles and you'd have to take it out with a pinhead, you know, and titrate it with, you could smoke it or you could titrate it into alcohol.

[1335] Well, I, you know, it's all stuck in the bottom of the bottle and it wasn't coming out so I thought, well, a microwave it just a little bit.

[1336] And I was doing five seconds, five seconds, nothing.

[1337] So I went 11 seconds and it shot out like a volcano.

[1338] And I had it on a piece of paper, paper towel.

[1339] I was living in Florida then, and the woman who's now my wife was in California.

[1340] And anyhow, I took the towel and I didn't want to waste it.

[1341] So I ate it.

[1342] I swallowed it.

[1343] You ate the whole towel?

[1344] Well, it was just a little part of the towel that had the pot on it.

[1345] And then I called her and I told her what I did.

[1346] And she said, oh, that towel has chlorine.

[1347] And she wasn't worried about the pot.

[1348] And she's a nurse with the masters in health.

[1349] So I took her advice seriously.

[1350] She said, all that chlorine and stuff, that's that towel, you shouldn't have eaten the towel.

[1351] And of course, by then I'm starting get kind of panicky, so I took some peptic AC, which kind of activated the whole thing.

[1352] And I was stoned for good 48 hours.

[1353] Forty -eight hours?

[1354] I was functional after 24.

[1355] Wow.

[1356] But I could tell, oh, I could tell I was still high.

[1357] Yeah.

[1358] It's very uncomfortable.

[1359] It's not fun.

[1360] So this person, your friend, was high, she said, until Tuesday?

[1361] What day did she started on?

[1362] Saturday night, late.

[1363] So Sunday, Monday, and then Tuesday She went to work Tuesday, but she said she was not feeling too good.

[1364] Oh, my goodness.

[1365] No, you don't want to do that.

[1366] That seems so crazy.

[1367] Oh, it is.

[1368] And that's really only when you eat.

[1369] Both of those were accidents, you know.

[1370] That's only when you eat it.

[1371] Yeah.

[1372] But, you know, it didn't kill us.

[1373] Yeah, of course.

[1374] No, it doesn't kill anybody.

[1375] Unless you do something really stupid while you're in that state.

[1376] It won't be the drug that kills you, though.

[1377] Well, it could be.

[1378] It could be if you're really stupid.

[1379] Well, I mean, you wouldn't overdose.

[1380] You can't overdose sometimes.

[1381] You can't overdose, for sure.

[1382] Yeah.

[1383] Yeah, it's one of those things where you should.

[1384] Should you be able to go to the hardware store and buy a saw?

[1385] I say you should.

[1386] Sure.

[1387] But if enough people cut their hands off with saws, will we have, like, protests to, you know, make it so that it's very difficult to get a saw?

[1388] You have to get a license to get a saw.

[1389] Or you should wear a sign saying, I'm stupid.

[1390] I used to saw when I'm stoned?

[1391] Well, the same argument really could be used about firearms, except the fact that people use them against other people.

[1392] But the idea that if you have a firearm that it's dangerous, like, is it really dangerous?

[1393] If you know what you're doing, it seems like you can control a lot of what's dangerous and not dangerous about a firearm.

[1394] And then it becomes, well, bad people can have guns and bad things can happen.

[1395] That is true.

[1396] But does that mean that good people can't have them?

[1397] Like, that seems to be a weird sort of an argument.

[1398] No, I was trained with guns.

[1399] You know, I went hunting with my dad.

[1400] And in high school, the Marine Corps had a gun club that we joined.

[1401] And we'd go out and shoot 30 -caliber machine guns and browning automatics and stuff like that.

[1402] But we learned gun safety.

[1403] We learned a lot about it.

[1404] Yeah.

[1405] People are just, we have a very detached society.

[1406] And I have a friend.

[1407] No names will be named.

[1408] who gets mad at Ugg boots because they're made out of sheepskin.

[1409] He thinks that's fucked up, that they take these sheeps and they skin them and they make boots out.

[1410] I'm like, why the fuck would you wear that?

[1411] Meanwhile, he eats meat.

[1412] Yeah, wears a belt.

[1413] His fucking car has leather seats.

[1414] Like, I mean, it's so bizarre.

[1415] It's not even vegetarian.

[1416] Like, but this draw the line at these sheepskin boots.

[1417] Like, this is fucked up.

[1418] They're using the sheep's skin like, okay.

[1419] You're getting into hunting now.

[1420] And, you know, you're talk about it with deer hunting.

[1421] I mean, it's culling a herd, and somebody's just going to die in the forest anyhow, and why not you eat them rather than the wolf eat them or something?

[1422] Yeah, you're going to, you're not, I mean, deer don't live forever.

[1423] They die.

[1424] They don't last very long.

[1425] They either freeze to death.

[1426] That happens a lot.

[1427] And the place where I went in Montana, they freeze a lot, or they get killed by predators.

[1428] But they never reach old age.

[1429] It just doesn't happen.

[1430] There's no old age for a deer.

[1431] And if you live in some place that deer's are a problem, or deer are a problem, You want to shoot them even if you're against hunting because they can be a real problem.

[1432] We don't think of them as rats, but a rat is just an animal.

[1433] And a rat is just an animal that has infiltrated entire cities and entire, you know, population areas where they know people are.

[1434] They know there's a food source and they've infiltrated.

[1435] The deer are the exact same way.

[1436] And the idea that, well, you know, it's our fall.

[1437] We came to where the deer are.

[1438] Actually, there's more deer today than there was in 1492 when Columbus didn't land here.

[1439] There's more deer today than have been ever, ever in the recorded history of this country.

[1440] Right.

[1441] And that's just because of land management and because also there's very few predators.

[1442] And so the only way they get killed is by people killing them.

[1443] And there's a lot of areas where there's just too much space.

[1444] You can't kill them all.

[1445] Like go through like rural Pennsylvania.

[1446] My God.

[1447] They're everywhere.

[1448] Upstate New York.

[1449] Insane how many deer are.

[1450] We lived out in Long Island for a while doing a house sitting job.

[1451] And they were all over the place out there.

[1452] All over the place.

[1453] It's a serious deer problem, you know.

[1454] Well, people don't understand, well, what would be the problem?

[1455] The problem is, first of all, car accidents, a huge amount of people getting car accidents with deer.

[1456] And deer can go through your windshield and kill you.

[1457] The antlers can, they've killed people before, not just once.

[1458] It's happened many times.

[1459] And God forbid, you live in an area that has fucking moose.

[1460] Because that will kill you.

[1461] Oh, yeah.

[1462] That will land on you and crush your car.

[1463] A lot of people die with just deer, though.

[1464] Yes, they do.

[1465] Did you ever hear that funny 9 -11 call with a guy that hit a deer, put it in a, backseat, and then the deer bit him.

[1466] And he escaped to, he was in a phone booth, and the dog had smelled the blood, and it kept him in the phone booth.

[1467] Oh, it's a hilarious.

[1468] That's hilarious.

[1469] No, I never heard that one, but I did hear the one where the cops took someone's pot and made pot brownies.

[1470] I know what you mean.

[1471] And then they called the cops on themselves.

[1472] They were saying they were dying, and he was like, could you please hurry up?

[1473] Time's going really, really slow.

[1474] Ask someone who's been there before.

[1475] and has been like, you know, like way too high on a cookie going, shit, I fucked up, man. I know what it must have been like.

[1476] There is proof it makes you stupid.

[1477] It can.

[1478] It twists your reality.

[1479] Yeah, that's a good call.

[1480] I don't think they knew, I don't think they knew, like, what they were getting into.

[1481] People who don't understand, it's actually kind of ironic.

[1482] Because if you look at the idea behind it is, I mean, I just don't think they understand that when you keep something, illegal, you restrict the information that gets out.

[1483] When you restrict the information that gets out, a lot of misinformation gets out and a lot of confusion.

[1484] And it actually is worse for people.

[1485] That's where this eating pot comes into place because they don't understand that when you eat pot, it gets processed by your liver and it produces something called 11 hydroxy metabolite, which is four to five times more psychoactive than THC.

[1486] It's a completely different psychedelic experience.

[1487] And so they eat it and they think someone poisoned them or they think that someone laced it.

[1488] Laced it is, I've heard laced a bunch of times like this is just this is laced man someone laced this because they're freaking out like oh my god we're gonna die they haven't been that stone before yeah they've never been that stone before i think i'm having an overdose and so is my wife he says i'm pot you'd be the first ever buddy well you know the other thing about eating it is we all have such a different metabolism you know some people will start coming on an hour and a half two hours for me it takes almost three and a half hours to come on so you have to be careful in that time and not lose your patience and say, well, I didn't have enough.

[1489] And then you eat another part and then too much.

[1490] And it doesn't, you know, it really, it depends on many, many, many factors.

[1491] And that's another issue with the illegality of it is you're not getting the same sort of standardized doses you get if you order Tylenol or you order to vitamin C capsule or something like that.

[1492] You're getting this, you know, you're getting weirdness.

[1493] And unless you know the guy who makes the product that you use, you're just guessing.

[1494] It's not worth it.

[1495] It stays over.

[1496] Don't oils and things like that.

[1497] We know one scientist that's doing some amazing things with it and working with cancer patients and all that.

[1498] You know, there's so much information about being an anti -aging and anti -cancer.

[1499] I mean, we're talking about intensive studies, thousands of them.

[1500] Right.

[1501] That show all the benefits of it, and that's not even mentioning the hemp benefit, which is even more important, really, when you think about the forests and what the hemp could do.

[1502] Yeah, it's a weird time where we have all this information about, you know, what could be beneficial for our society, how much money could be generated by having legal cannabis, how much tax dollars would be generated, just in sales tax alone.

[1503] It'd be pretty substantial.

[1504] And that these transactions are still going on today.

[1505] They're going, I mean, there might be an increase in pot use if pot were made legal.

[1506] There probably would be an increase.

[1507] But the reality is, if you just got what we had today, what people are doing, where people are doing it illegally and made it legal, you would, the states and the cities would get a tremendous amount of money.

[1508] But see, they're getting money through the war on drugs.

[1509] I'd only found out recently three quarters of all the arrests are pot, possession primarily.

[1510] Three quarters.

[1511] And so three quarters of all the money that's going into the war on drugs.

[1512] Think of all the drug testing goes on.

[1513] They're not testing for LSD.

[1514] They're testing for pot.

[1515] Yes.

[1516] That's a big industry.

[1517] The prison industry is such a big industry.

[1518] That's why they're fighting it.

[1519] Prison Guard unions.

[1520] Yeah, yeah.

[1521] Yeah, when I heard prison guard unions lobby against making drugs illegal, drugs legal rather Partnership for a Drug Free American I think that's Seagrams and a few other liquor companies are the ones that fund that It used to be pharmaceutical companies Oh probably Yeah they had a big part of it as well Actually I think pharmaceuticals Alcohol, tobacco and pharmaceutical companies Were the primary The drug pushers are again The way I described it was Them doing commercials against pot It was like hookers doing commercials against strippers That's a good analogy That's really what it's like It's so stupid It just doesn't make any sense.

[1522] Like, how can you have a partnership for a drug -free America that's sponsored by drugs?

[1523] Right.

[1524] Like, drugs give them millions of dollars.

[1525] Not just a couple of bucks.

[1526] Not just drugs.

[1527] Look, I like what you're doing about pot.

[1528] We disagree about alcohol and tobacco.

[1529] I think there are awesome products and great from humanity.

[1530] So I'm going to send you some money.

[1531] Alcohol and tobacco are giving drugs a bad name.

[1532] That's just so ridiculous.

[1533] We're just in a weird time.

[1534] We're in a really, really weird time in human history.

[1535] Where, again, we have so much information, and yet there's so much contradictory behavior.

[1536] you're going on.

[1537] Contradictory to the evidence that's in place, contradictory to logic or contradictory to reason.

[1538] Like, why are you arresting somebody for a plant ever?

[1539] Does anybody get hurt by this?

[1540] Then stop.

[1541] Stop.

[1542] What do you do?

[1543] You're a cop for who?

[1544] For the corporations?

[1545] You're supposed to be a cop to protect the people.

[1546] Enforced a law and protect the people.

[1547] And the law should protect the people.

[1548] So the idea is, well, cops are only supposed to enforce the law.

[1549] They're not here to protect the people.

[1550] Well, the laws that don't protect people are fucking stupid.

[1551] And you don't protect people by locking them in jail because they have plants on them that's just dumb exactly so we got other shit to do you know this is a good good place to put out the item about jury nullification you know uh people don't realize this but uh it used to be part of the judge's instruction to a jury that if you don't find this law appropriate you can find the person not guilty and they don't you know they keep that now if you hand out a literature a piece of literature about that at a courthouse you'll get arrested they won't let you say it but it's still the law jury nullification and and i've actually actually been on one case where I did this as a juror that in fact if I'm ever on any kind of a pot case unless there was violence you know that'll look different but if it's just a simple possession case I don't care what the facts are and what the judge says you can still say not guilty and there is nothing that can be done about it wow and people need to know that I mean there's a big jury nullification movement on the web you can find out about but it's hard to get your head around because you know people hear the judge's instruction and they say oh I had to find them guilty no you don't yeah it should all be legal it's really simple we should hire people to study it use the government funds that you would normally spend on law enforcement use those in a better way to hire people to study what are the actual effects of this stuff and inform people not by basis of your prejudice in one way or what your biased opinion would be one way but the actual facts like here's the facts it might fuck up your memory it seems like when you get high, it messes with your short -term memory, you might get tongue -tied, you might get locked up if you know what I do.

[1552] Here's the negatives.

[1553] Here's the cons.

[1554] Smoking something in general, probably not the best thing for you.

[1555] Eating it, you might freak the fuck out and jump off a building.

[1556] I mean, eating is a little scary.

[1557] You could have some nightmares.

[1558] You have to know what you're doing.

[1559] Yeah, show people what is.

[1560] Well, vaporizer, probably a really good move as far as health -wise, probably the safest bet.

[1561] Here's what happens.

[1562] Here's what a good dose is.

[1563] Here's what happens when you have half that dose.

[1564] Here's what happens when you have a quarter of that dose.

[1565] Knock yourself out.

[1566] Do you want to do, but no one's going to die.

[1567] And that would be that simple.

[1568] Yeah.

[1569] And then start taxing the shit out of it.

[1570] And my goodness, would we have money.

[1571] We would have money for everything.

[1572] If we started making marijuana legal and have a high tax, shit, let's make the tax 10%.

[1573] Well, it's 25 % in Colorado now.

[1574] Perfect.

[1575] Denver, something like that.

[1576] I love Colorado.

[1577] Colorado's always on the ball.

[1578] They're always ahead of everybody.

[1579] They're animals.

[1580] They're living up there with bears and shit.

[1581] Yeah, that altitude helps somebody.

[1582] They don't have the oppression of all That's just awesome.

[1583] That's just an awesome state.

[1584] It's just all around awesome.

[1585] Colorado's one of my all -time favorite states.

[1586] You lived there for a while, right?

[1587] Yeah.

[1588] That's 25 % is a smart move because I don't mind paying.

[1589] If I have to pay four bucks for a joint or whatever it is, and I'm paying a dollar, you know, I don't mind 25%.

[1590] But if you buy it, it's really not that expensive for how much it you use.

[1591] And if you use a vaporizer, you can get about three or four to one on the thing, you know?

[1592] Yeah.

[1593] And look, in comparison to so many other things that are really expensive, it's kind of silly to talk about it.

[1594] And that's now, while it's, you know, fairly illegal.

[1595] See, now, Pot, I can see that the war in drugs is making money off of it.

[1596] Psychedelics, I think it's because they're afraid you might start your thinking.

[1597] You know, before I used MDMA, I was an Irish Catholic Republican lawyer.

[1598] And afterwards, I was still Irish, and everything else went away.

[1599] Wow, that's, what a weird, how long did that transition take?

[1600] Was it from the first hit you took, you knew something was up?

[1601] I think it took from the night that I ingested it until the next morning sometime.

[1602] And, you know, all of a sudden, I realized a whole, I just had a real awakening.

[1603] And I felt like I did when I was a young boy, you know, that I've had, I've helped a lot of people on their first trips.

[1604] And almost invariably, they say the same thing.

[1605] I've felt like this before.

[1606] I mean, you don't go crazy or anything.

[1607] And it's really not a psychedelic.

[1608] And so, you know, it's a gentle way to get in.

[1609] And it's so good for therapy.

[1610] You know, Michael and Annie Midoff are in South Carolina are now, I think, entering the second phase of an MDMA test.

[1611] But it was so the first phase one was treating rape victims with serious PTSD.

[1612] And they had an amazing amount of recovery, actual recovery.

[1613] one woman hadn't left a house in 15 years and now she's got a job and I think something like that.

[1614] But the Pentagon has now approved this study for post -dramatic stress disorder and they're looking at some other studies with the Pentagon because PTSD is such a huge problem.

[1615] And MDMA, see, here's why the drug companies don't want it.

[1616] What Michael and Annie do, I think they only do maybe two sessions with MDMA.

[1617] You know, their psychiatrist assisted and guided and all psychoanalyst.

[1618] or, I don't know, maybe not that high a level, but there's a lot of counseling goes on with it.

[1619] And see, when you take MDMA, it lowers so many barriers that you and your therapist can really talk, honestly.

[1620] And they have had, like, the phase one study is just to prove it won't kill somebody.

[1621] And still, they had some amazing recoveries.

[1622] And now phase two, they want to do the extended therapy with the thing.

[1623] But see, the drug companies don't like it because you only need one or two pills, ever.

[1624] And then you're done.

[1625] and you don't keep taking it.

[1626] They want things that they can keep you taking.

[1627] It's interesting because it seems like they would be able to make some money using that stuff.

[1628] But, you know, they're going to be abuse with that.

[1629] There's abuse with MDMA for sure.

[1630] Ravers, you know, people are dying because they get dehydrated and dance.

[1631] And most of it's because it's adulterated.

[1632] You know, it's not pure MDMA.

[1633] What do they cut it with?

[1634] I don't know.

[1635] I think all kinds of things.

[1636] And it could just be impurities in their processes.

[1637] But probably some sort, you know, it is an amphetamine.

[1638] And so they probably cut it with a little speed so you can feel something.

[1639] But, you know, originally back in the early days when we were getting it, it was either in cap form and a lot of it was in powder.

[1640] But it was pure MDMA.

[1641] And, of course, we knew the source and stuff like that.

[1642] But today, you know, there used to be a group called Dance Safe.

[1643] And I don't think they're active anymore because they were the government was shutting them down.

[1644] But they were doing free drug testing at raves to tell you if you had pure MDMA.

[1645] Shut that down.

[1646] That's so rude and short -sighted.

[1647] They thought it was encouraging drug use.

[1648] Oh, my God.

[1649] But instead, it was saving lives.

[1650] Saving lives.

[1651] How could, that's such an illogical stance to take.

[1652] You should never put something in your mouth that you got from somebody you don't know.

[1653] That's a good, good thing to say, except if you want to put your penis in someone's mouth.

[1654] Well.

[1655] And you barely know them.

[1656] You know, I've never had anybody a stranger to do that for me. I've always gotten to know them at least for a half hour.

[1657] I'm not saying that it's going to happen.

[1658] I'm just saying you should always leave that option now.

[1659] Okay, I'll go along with that.

[1660] Especially if you're on ecstasy.

[1661] Think about it.

[1662] Well, you know what?

[1663] In Dallas, some of our customers, there were some swinger clubs in Dallas.

[1664] And so we would sell it to these clubs because you can have an erection for hours on it.

[1665] Wow.

[1666] But you can't come.

[1667] And so the swingers clubs loved it.

[1668] A bunch of sore people.

[1669] I come out here to West Coast and the word is, oh, you're going to have a third day letdown hangover and you can't have sex on it.

[1670] And I thought, wow, that's a completely different story.

[1671] And everybody bought into it out here.

[1672] But in Dallas, it was a totally different story.

[1673] Nobody was having that second, third day blas or anything.

[1674] So in Dallas, you were getting pure MDMA.

[1675] Right.

[1676] And here they're getting this anphetamine mixture.

[1677] Well, I don't know if any place is getting it pure unless you really don't, you know, the chemist.

[1678] But it was a better.

[1679] Yeah, it was definitely pure.

[1680] And, you know, it was legal at that time.

[1681] There was no reason to cut it.

[1682] And, you know, it was.

[1683] Do you remember when 5MEO DMT was legal and you could buy it online?

[1684] You can buy like a coffee cup full with it online And get the whole world high It was like $30.

[1685] I know some people that have.

[1686] Yeah, that's what I heard.

[1687] I heard you know.

[1688] I heard you know things.

[1689] Yeah, it's weird what's still legal.

[1690] Like Salvia's legal in a lot of places still.

[1691] And then they have this basalt issue, which is really nutty.

[1692] They take a compound like crystal meth.

[1693] They alter it so it becomes a different new compound that's not categorized.

[1694] Then they say not for human consumption.

[1695] sell it as bath salts but everybody knows that you're supposed to smoke it because it's like crack or meth or whatever the hell it is and they can't do anything about it yeah it's amazing there's been something like uh i don't want to use the number because i don't have in front of me but close to maybe 70 new compounds that have been introduced in england this year this year whoa england knows how to party well worldwide is probably higher might only be 20 it might have been 70 last year and 20 but there are there there's just no way to stop these things coming now what are you doing england why are you going crazy well look look if you had to live there you'd have to do something to it's raining right now it's snowing right now yeah it gets a little dreary and by the way there's a bunch of people in england watching us right now live oh yeah for sure i love england i was just to manchester just did two shows oh really manchester yeah dance house theater was awesome it's just fun i love england i like the people there oh they're great they're as audience members they're amazing they're some of the best audience members you ever get they're polite they listen they get things, they understand where you're going and stuff.

[1696] Yeah.

[1697] You know, they get subtlety.

[1698] They know what's going on.

[1699] Well, I think, I don't know what it is.

[1700] I mean, are they more educated in England?

[1701] Their school systems is definitely better, I think.

[1702] Yeah.

[1703] That even, not the private schools, but their public schools are even better.

[1704] That is the one thing that irks me the most about society is that there's such a minimal amount of finances that are dedicated towards school systems.

[1705] They're always trying to cut the school budget.

[1706] They're always cutting things.

[1707] they should be pouring money into the public education system pouring money in the community centers pouring money into anything that benefits young people and they're cutting the worst things like music and art and sports they're cutting wrestling in a lot of places you know it makes me sick because people need these things and it's greedy old people that had these things and they're younger that are deciding that these are the things that should be cut those things should be uncutable that should be like look, here's your budget.

[1708] You need to spend $100 million on the school systems.

[1709] After that, you can do whatever the fuck you want as far as cleaning the streets up and doing all that other.

[1710] But number one, you need to do this because this is what's going to take care of everything.

[1711] I'll go along with that.

[1712] This is what's going to make the people that are babies become cool adults.

[1713] And if you don't get that right, the whole society's scrapped.

[1714] The whole generation's gone.

[1715] The whole generation has to figure it out for themselves.

[1716] And there's that attitude of pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

[1717] And, you know, I figured it out.

[1718] You should figure it out, too.

[1719] Like, man, if you did figure it out, then you should know how goddamn hard it is to figure out.

[1720] And you should also know, this is not the only way to do it.

[1721] This is a silly way to do it, to have unmotivated teachers that get paid $25 ,000 a year.

[1722] I mean, how can you feed yourself?

[1723] How can you expect these people who you're entrusting to educate your children to be motivated when they can barely eat?

[1724] Right.

[1725] And, you know, some of our best teachers are just so amazing because they're working in the inner city.

[1726] Voluntarily.

[1727] They could go other places, some of them, junior college and all, but I have one friend who worked in the inner city in San Francisco for a while, another one here in L .A. And they were amazing men, and they just, you know, they did it because they wanted to help these kids.

[1728] Well, that's a beautiful notion.

[1729] It's beautiful when you meet people like that, and it's beautiful that they still exist.

[1730] It's just sad that corporations have controlled the political process to the point where when a person gets into power, when a person becomes president, they never have a chance to do a real overhaul.

[1731] You never really are like the one person who is in control.

[1732] You have a million people that you owe that got you into that position that you have to pay back or do their bidding or meet their interests before you do anything.

[1733] And so that's what, you know, that's where all these different laws come from that are so confusing and don't make any sense to people.

[1734] We've got to figure out a way to govern people by actually governing people.

[1735] It's like we accept that there's going to be so much, so much bullshit and so much.

[1736] corruption and so much thievery and so many slanted ideas we just accept that there's going to be a certain amount of that because it's always been that way and if you looked at that you know it looked at like a lot of the decisions that get made at the highest levels of government like who they benefit you would say this could never happen this could never happen if we all had the right attitude this can only happen when money gets involved this can only happen when someone puts money ahead of humanity and that's like the the real core part of our society that's fucked up is education.

[1737] I mean, education not just in the small sense of teaching people that don't know how to read, how to read, but teaching people who are brilliant how to think about life.

[1738] Exactly.

[1739] Not just how to count and how to, you know, calculate the dates of fossils that you find, but how to think about humans, how to engage with each other, how to look at this temporary existence in a correct way.

[1740] Well, you know, corporations set a lot of the agenda for schools as far as the curriculum, things like that, because they're looking to get, you know, passive little cubicle workers.

[1741] And, see, that was one of the lessons that the power elite learned of the 60s.

[1742] It was all these young kids got educated because their parents got educated from the GI Bill.

[1743] And now we're educating these kids and they're getting too smart for us.

[1744] And I think they've intentionally been dumbing down the school system.

[1745] How do they do that, though?

[1746] Just by underfunding it?

[1747] Well, look at Texas.

[1748] The school books in Texas are teaching creationism and they're trying to get evolution out of the textbooks completely.

[1749] Right, but you don't think that that's because they're dumb, right?

[1750] They're just doing that because that's their, they're religious.

[1751] I mean, not that they're dumb.

[1752] But that dumps down the people, though.

[1753] But I'm sorry, let me rephrase that.

[1754] You don't think that they're doing that because they're trying to make people dumb.

[1755] There are people using those people to do that, I think.

[1756] I think the corporations want people who aren't really thinking out of the box too much.

[1757] They can get those from the elite private schools.

[1758] But isn't there like always going to be like a large base of fundamental people in places like Texas that they could just they could capitalize on by, you know, leaning as far as, like, their decision -making towards them because they know that's going to aid them to get into office.

[1759] Well, yeah, and, of course, I'm pretty cynical about that.

[1760] I think the voting is pretty rigged anyhow with electronic voting, but...

[1761] Well, it certainly has been shown to be.

[1762] In Texas, you know, I practiced law in Texas and lived there for a while, and it's a pretty Bible, kind of, very fundamentalist.

[1763] Oh, yeah.

[1764] Yeah, I was doing some jokes last time I was in Houston.

[1765] My friend said this girl walked to the bathroom and said, if he talks about Jesus one more time, we are out of here.

[1766] I barely talked about Jesus.

[1767] Then let me throw out a title of a book, Caesar's Messiah, a book that's out that talks about Jesus actually being fictional.

[1768] It's pretty interesting book.

[1769] Yeah, I read a thing about that.

[1770] Do you like something to drink?

[1771] Yeah, I got it here.

[1772] You got some?

[1773] Did you want some coffee?

[1774] No, I keep me awake all day.

[1775] Oh, how dare you?

[1776] that's right you told me already sorry um i yeah i read a summary of that online when they were talking about this uh new study that said that jesus may have been created and they found new documents that suggest he was either way this is what i always said it doesn't matter i don't know if jesus was real or if jesus was artificial my point is it doesn't make sense that he died and came back to life three days later and as long as you believe that we have a problem we got a problem them.

[1777] We have a disconnecting communication.

[1778] We have a, why would that be real?

[1779] We have that.

[1780] We have why, what happened there?

[1781] He turned water into wine.

[1782] Were you there when this happened?

[1783] Do you know how dumb people are?

[1784] Do you know how much people lie?

[1785] You do.

[1786] Did you imagine what that must have been like back when people couldn't even write shit down?

[1787] And it was 50 years after the so -called event that somebody wrote it down for the first time.

[1788] Of course.

[1789] And way later than that, that Constantine and a bunch of bishops decided what goes in the book and what doesn't.

[1790] Right.

[1791] You know, when they wrote the New Testament.

[1792] I'm like, holy Jesus, like, they left stuff out, they added stuff.

[1793] There's so many different people's fingerprints on that.

[1794] It's just nonsense.

[1795] Well, it's about control.

[1796] They can control the people.

[1797] But the idea also that this is absolutely not saying that there's no God.

[1798] If you've done psychedelics, I think you've realized after a certain amount of those quote -unquote breakthrough experiences, I think you realize that you have no idea what's going on in this other realm.

[1799] Whatever these other realms are, whether they're individual, individually different, whether they're all connected, whether they're just frequencies on a dial, whether it's 5MEO, whether it's DMT, whether it's psilocybin, whatever these realms are that you enter into, they're so fantastic and special and strange and beyond description that the idea of God does not seem nearly as ridiculous once you've had them.

[1800] There's a video of me out there in an interview they did where I told the stories about hitting the street in Dallas.

[1801] and I mentioned about the fact when I got to at one point in my life in Florida I decided I was going to be an atheist I really wanted to get rid of everything and so I was trying really hard to be an atheist but I had this friend lived on the edge of town with a farm and he'd get mushrooms from the cow patties in his cow yard and bring him into me so I'd be an atheist during the week and then I'd eat these mushrooms on Saturday you can't be an atheist with five grams of dried mushrooms in your stomach Well you can't be sure no that's the real problem is that you can't be sure And my problem with religion is when people are sure about something that they've never seen, never experienced, you're sure because you read it, or you're sure because someone told it to, you're sure because it's your tradition.

[1802] Like, you've got to tell me why you're sure.

[1803] If you're sure because it's some demonstrable science, okay, I got it.

[1804] But if you're sure just because you're sure that God wants you to throw rocks at homosexuals because you saw that written down somewhere, like, wow, that doesn't make sense.

[1805] Why wouldn't he tell us now?

[1806] Why, how come God only tells one person, like, doesn't God know that game, the game of telephone?

[1807] Doesn't you know that game?

[1808] He must know that game.

[1809] So he made everything.

[1810] He's got to know that game sucks.

[1811] So why would you tell one person, like a few thousand years ago?

[1812] Why wouldn't you tell us all the time?

[1813] When somebody asked me if I believe in God, I just say, okay, define what you mean by the word God.

[1814] Right.

[1815] And we really never get much past that because people, a few people say, old man, the long white beard sitting on a throne.

[1816] I said, well, no, I don't believe in that.

[1817] See, that's where I differ from you.

[1818] Oh, really?

[1819] Yeah, because the shit I've seen on mushrooms are way weirder than a guy living in the clouds.

[1820] You know, I've seen things on DMT that made a guy in the clouds with a harp and a bunch of people around him with bird wings.

[1821] That wasn't even weird.

[1822] No, I agree with that.

[1823] So why not?

[1824] I'm in the same place.

[1825] I'm just, you know, the old Catholic image of the guy on the throne with the white beard.

[1826] It could be.

[1827] This is why.

[1828] Because life is so stupid and contradictory and weird.

[1829] And humans are so bizarre.

[1830] bizarre and so hypocritical and so strange and self -destructive in our acts collectively make no sense to the individual.

[1831] And yet we all feel helpless in the momentum of the united species.

[1832] And it's movement, whether it's the polluting of the ocean, the fucking up of the ozone layer, and shit flying around space, slamming in each other because we've got so many things floating around above our earth.

[1833] Whatever it is.

[1834] It's so bizarre and contradicting and crazy that it almost seems like the work of a madman.

[1835] It almost seems like the work of a god Like just one crazy motherfucker that's designed to control this planet I'm an assid trip He's just crazy asshole He's like anybody else that gets into a position of power He gets his fucking head gets big He gets crazy starts ordering people around Starts doing nutty shit like if you eat that apple Everyone's fuck that's it I said it you did it, it's over done But all of humanity forever has to suffer Yes Sorry Because I said so yeah And the only way to fix that is you gotta get a god who's his son to sacrifice his life like what come on you know we get all wrapped up in the affairs of the world but you've had intense dreams you wake up and and that the only last for a few moments you can't hold on to some of these dreams i have a feeling that when we die it could be just like that you say god i i felt like i was on a planet earth or something and i can't remember and you don't remember a damn thing about all this stuff we went through it's certainly possible sure There's thoughts We don't know.

[1836] Yeah, you live an infinite life that's interconnected one life to another and that's one of the reasons why you meet someone and they're an old soul or you meet someone and they're particularly fortunate like why is this guy particularly fortunate?

[1837] Why are people drawn to them like initially from the get -go?

[1838] Maybe this is things that they figured out in past existences that we're not calculating in this existence.

[1839] Maybe you have a certain amount of work that you can do in this existence but you're basically still riding on the momentum of a fucking an eon of different lives that you've lived over and over and over again.

[1840] One of the things we can do in this life that I don't know whether or not we can do in another life but with a human body there's a lot of physical pleasure that you can experience.

[1841] And I think that part of what we should be doing here is having some physical pleasure and not just getting into the spiritual world.

[1842] Sounds like someone starting a cult.

[1843] I know how you do it, pal.

[1844] I know how you psychedelic people think.

[1845] Or a commune or a new situation.

[1846] No, actually, I'm a hermit.

[1847] I seldom leave my cave.

[1848] Really?

[1849] Are you a hermit?

[1850] You seem like a very personable guy.

[1851] Well, I can be, but I save it all up for a rare occasion.

[1852] That's funny.

[1853] You're personable in small doses.

[1854] Right.

[1855] You know, that's actually, there's a reality to that.

[1856] That you, the overwhelming amounts of people, if you're around overwhelming amounts of people, you could be like overstimulated.

[1857] Some people believe that the result of living in cities and living in high population areas is like, This same thing that you're experiencing when you see people getting into road rage.

[1858] The same thing you see experiencing when you see people fly off the handle at counterhelp or whatever have you.

[1859] It's just like they're just overworked.

[1860] There's just too much stimulation.

[1861] And you just need to sit by yourself, watch a little TV, read a book, relax.

[1862] You need to be out in nature going for a walk.

[1863] We don't feel anything or hear anything.

[1864] You just see squirrels and birds and shit.

[1865] Play with a couple little kids, you know.

[1866] We just don't feel like we need that because we're so trapped in this momentum of accomplishment.

[1867] It's constantly pushing.

[1868] forward but not realizing that we don't we don't stay here forever you only get a certain amount of time i've quit doing conferences and workshops because afterwards people come up and they ask me all these questions that are so deep i don't really quite understand the questions you know and i'm not i'm a carnival barker that's my role all the actions in the tent and you're in the center ring yourself in the main tent but i just i like to point to a lot of things and i go broad but i don't go very deep.

[1869] And so I can't answer questions and these people want me to solve their life problems.

[1870] I don't even understand what they're asking me. So I've just quit making appearances.

[1871] Well, there's always going to be people that want you to figure it out for them.

[1872] Yeah.

[1873] There's always going to be people that don't just want to discuss things that people have said, which is absolutely fascinating, but they want you to help them.

[1874] It's a very selfish point of view.

[1875] And it's, it's very common.

[1876] And I'm just not up to it.

[1877] That's not what I do.

[1878] I don't think anybody is, quite honestly.

[1879] And especially if you go up to them and ask them for advice, hey, I need your advice like man listen what you need to do is you need to look at your own life and figure out what you're doing and why if you want to talk about like specific things like in order for someone to give you advice like should I marry this girl like oh my god where do we begin you know I'm gonna have to like if you wanted me to give an honest answer if you should you should get married to someone I would have to see you guys interact for like weeks right I'd have to like get to know you individually I would have to really say that yes you should sign a legal contract where you give up 50 % of all your earnings is one person yeah go do it dude and then if it doesn't work out you're gonna get mad at me like people like I'm thinking about taking ecstasy what do you think I don't know I don't know you man have you started in the library that's where you go first yeah go to arrow in the idea that you would be able to tell someone what to do or not to do or what it like you're asking too many weird questions which you should be doing is figuring it out for yourself that's a big part of life and then surrounding yourself with people that you meet that you become friends with and you can share ideas and experience with.

[1880] Yeah, you can't just run up to Lorenzo and ask him to solve your problems.

[1881] Can you shit in order?

[1882] I've got a friend up crew.

[1883] In Houston, who's a lawyer friend of mine.

[1884] Actually, we were in the Navy together too, and he has a big brass plaque on the front of his desk.

[1885] It says, frankly, I'd rather not get involved.

[1886] So you know you're going to pay top dollar with him.

[1887] Well, there's people that just want to drag you into their world and you don't want to be in their world.

[1888] And it's like, listen, You had your own break, and people helped you.

[1889] Like, are you sure about that?

[1890] Because there definitely wasn't this.

[1891] It wasn't running up to people and telling them to fix my life.

[1892] Right.

[1893] You know, but there's a lot of that going on out there.

[1894] And unfortunately, it all goes down to the same issue.

[1895] People that haven't been explained how to think to.

[1896] They haven't been instructed on what's the most productive way to think.

[1897] What's the best way to, and I don't mean by think, by form your own opinions or creatively or anything.

[1898] I mean, manage your consciousness.

[1899] What's the debate?

[1900] best way to manage how you look at yourself in relation to the people around you.

[1901] And if you're being too goddamn needy, you're ruining it for everybody.

[1902] Exactly.

[1903] If it's always about you, you, you, you, you, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, that might be while you're in that situation in the first place.

[1904] Because nobody wants to fucking help you, and no one's helped you up to now.

[1905] You're exhausting.

[1906] You know, I used to be on the motivational speaker circuit for a while.

[1907] And we had all these pat things when you pointed somebody.

[1908] You got three fingers pointing back at yourself.

[1909] The other one is you can walk.

[1910] through a room full of people laying on the floor and give your hand to each one and help them to their feet.

[1911] But you let one of them climb on your back and you're going to be down on the floor with them.

[1912] And so that's what you're saying.

[1913] Don't get involved in helping people.

[1914] You just tell them what you can help them with, some ideas that they got to work on themselves, but you can't solve their problems.

[1915] Yeah, it's not that don't get involved with helping people.

[1916] It's that people have to realize that you as an individual.

[1917] I meant taking their burden on, yeah.

[1918] Yeah.

[1919] You as an individual have your own unique burden.

[1920] If you want to learn things, if you want to figure, then you, you know, you know, you You've got to start doing research, you've got to start reading books, you've got to start communicating.

[1921] But going up to someone like you and saying, hey, I need you to fix my life.

[1922] You know, what do I do?

[1923] Like, I don't know what the fuck you do.

[1924] I barely know what the fuck I do.

[1925] Like, come on, man. You've got to find somebody else.

[1926] And the other problem is that what I've found is that people who are needy, they never recover.

[1927] If you keep them in your life, God damn, they're needy 10 years later.

[1928] Yeah.

[1929] Like, hey, man, we've gotten 10 years and you're still a goddamn wreck.

[1930] Like, why, why?

[1931] Why?

[1932] Why haven't you not figured this out yet?

[1933] You asked me for advice 10 goddamn years ago.

[1934] We spent a lot of time talking about shit.

[1935] And now 10 years later, you're doing the same thing.

[1936] Same thing.

[1937] You're sucking me into a world of a bullshit.

[1938] You're just trapping me like a little vortex.

[1939] And being honest, like that's probably the best thing you can do for them.

[1940] No, then they hate you and talk shit about you online and they're fake names.

[1941] That's what they do.

[1942] They hire.

[1943] They get fake accounts.

[1944] Yeah, just turn it off.

[1945] Well, it's just, you know, life is beautiful when everybody's trying to do their part.

[1946] But life becomes a real pain in the ass when no one wants to do this.

[1947] the dishes you know i like that if you live in a house with a bunch of people and no one does the dishes it becomes that hey what the fuck are we doing right everybody get together here let's come on i did the dishes last night there's 10 of them in here today well i wasn't my food i didn't eat that you know you get into that kind of nonsense then you got a shitty communication system you got a shitty commune you got a shitty culture just goes downhill from there yeah i mean that's that's what our real issue is a real issue is that there's too many people out there that that that not just want attention, but demand it for nothing.

[1948] Right.

[1949] You know, it's not that, you know...

[1950] That's who they become.

[1951] People like want to, hey man, I've got to get you to listen to my CD.

[1952] Do you know what that would be like if the whole world, you know, had someone, if it was like five billion people that wanted you to listen to their CD?

[1953] Would you ever have time for anything else?

[1954] It's like email right now.

[1955] We don't even know each other.

[1956] Why am I listening to your CD?

[1957] And you know, just do you think you can help me?

[1958] Do you think it really I could help you by listening to your CD?

[1959] I'm not a music producer.

[1960] Like, what the fuck are you doing, man?

[1961] there's not that much time in the world I can't help everybody you know if you have something that's interesting send a link you know if someone wants to to help you that it'll spread virally right put something online two people find it they'll send it to four and then it gets going from there I mean this is the only way today and there's what they can do it they've got YouTube and places they can put their music you know and that's the only issue that I ever have in communicating with people is sometimes people get exhausting I want you to read the script do you know how long that takes I don't even know you man I'm going to read your script.

[1962] I get people wanting me to read their books all the time.

[1963] Of course.

[1964] I've got books I need to read.

[1965] It's flattering, right?

[1966] It's flattering.

[1967] But I would never do that.

[1968] I would never send someone a book and say, I want you to read this and then critique it for me. I'm not that needy.

[1969] I think that's a needy thing.

[1970] The other reason I don't do it besides the time is, you know, first of all, I'm not sure I know what they're talking about.

[1971] I'm not sure I know the subject.

[1972] But then what if I don't like it?

[1973] Yeah.

[1974] You know, I don't want to just say, hey, this really sucks.

[1975] Yeah, I've heard that happen before.

[1976] People have sent me stand up before, review this and then get back to.

[1977] You know, I thought during my bachelor stoner days, I wanted to do stand -up.

[1978] About the time you're doing news radio.

[1979] And I thought it was really funny.

[1980] And I worked for weeks and weeks to get like a five -minute little.

[1981] So you were in your 50s when you did this?

[1982] Yeah.

[1983] Wow.

[1984] Your bachelor stoner days and your 50s.

[1985] I couldn't even get my girlfriend to laugh at more than one or two of the jokes.

[1986] And I thought, you know, there's no way I'm going to an open mic with this.

[1987] It's hard.

[1988] You need a new girlfriend.

[1989] Well, that happened too.

[1990] but it wasn't her fault.

[1991] It wasn't her fault.

[1992] But that's hard work to do that.

[1993] I really admire you guys.

[1994] It's hard work when it's not going well.

[1995] That's when it's hard work.

[1996] It's hard work when you're trying to come up with new material.

[1997] It's hard work.

[1998] When it's working, it's not hard work.

[1999] Although I love music, I always think comedy is just a step above because laughing actually can heal you.

[2000] And so I've learned more comedians through your show.

[2001] And one time I heard you say something like, you thought Joey Diaz was the funniest guy alive.

[2002] And so the next morning, and I usually listen to your podcast at the gym.

[2003] You know, it makes the gym time goes faster.

[2004] And I came home from the gym, and I got YouTube, and I looked at Joy Diaz channel.

[2005] And six o 'clock that night, I got stoned right then.

[2006] At six o 'clock that night, I'd seen almost all of Joey Diaz.

[2007] I haven't seen it all yet.

[2008] But he hits the tone with me. He and Mark Merrin, a couple of those guys really are in the same groove.

[2009] in and so I just, you know, I just can get, get lost doing that.

[2010] Joey Diaz is an animal.

[2011] He's an animal.

[2012] And he seems to, you know, ad lib riffs a lot, too.

[2013] Oh, it's all ad libid.

[2014] His best stuff is ad livin.

[2015] Yeah.

[2016] When he, the best thing that I ever saw, the funniest thing I ever saw was Joey Diaz on the Alex Jones show.

[2017] It was me and Joey Diaz and Alex Jones.

[2018] Alex wants to talk conspiracies and Joey hates that shit.

[2019] He doesn't want to talk about UFOs or chem trails.

[2020] Get the fuck out of here with your bullshit.

[2021] So he just hijacked the whole show.

[2022] Did you see that?

[2023] No, is it up on YouTube?

[2024] Yes.

[2025] I've got to see that one.

[2026] We'll pull it up.

[2027] Jamie, pull it up.

[2028] It's Joey Diaz on the Alex Jones show.

[2029] And he went on his rant for like a couple minutes towards the end when he left the podcast.

[2030] And I literally couldn't breathe.

[2031] My face was beat red.

[2032] I've got to see that.

[2033] He was just killing it.

[2034] And Alex Jones tried to jump in.

[2035] He stops him from jumping in.

[2036] It just gets louder and crazier.

[2037] He'd be one of the few people who could stop Alex Jones, I bet.

[2038] Oh, Alex Jones had no idea.

[2039] They're just better at covering up what they do.

[2040] Did they kill Michael Jackson?

[2041] I don't know.

[2042] Look at the movie.

[2043] He was dancing and singing, and next you know, he's dying of oxygen.

[2044] No, not right.

[2045] A junkies, a junkies, a junkies, a junkie every day.

[2046] He doesn't wake up singing dance, and then he has oxygen tanks at night.

[2047] Something's not right there.

[2048] And in my case, like, old school, you're worth more dead than what you are alive.

[2049] You understand me?

[2050] And now they've got a new record coming out.

[2051] He ain't in deck no more.

[2052] He's doing a tour next year with the people from Vegas that jump up and down the blue band group whatever the how that is i mean he's worth more now than he's ever been i think paul mccartney killed michael jackson if it was up to me me knowing what i know i know i smoke another joint i'll break it down i'll break it down because he bought the music from poor mccart didn't want to get it back to him right and all of a sudden they put paul mccart in the super bowl they tried to build up the beetles to get their thing going and all of a sudden michael jackson that's right michael jackson we've gotten confirmation i have the documents right here oh Obama and the elite, it's a strategy.

[2053] Keep going.

[2054] I don't know what to say.

[2055] Give me some stuff.

[2056] I would do you, but would do you.

[2057] Alex isn't even talking.

[2058] Yeah, he will.

[2059] Why you bring up the Supreme?

[2060] No, but not only.

[2061] Why are you pissing in my pool for?

[2062] You know what I'm sorry?

[2063] No, but I'm saying, no, I love you.

[2064] But I'm saying you're a character, too, on top of it.

[2065] This is what we're talking about.

[2066] He's way more funny.

[2067] I know, I know, I know.

[2068] You don't want to talk about yourself.

[2069] Okay, well, let's get back to a free country.

[2070] Let's get off Michael, Jack.

[2071] We need Joe.

[2072] We need Joey.

[2073] Diaz so we can point the finger and say there's the bad man what is our what is our model to you know how we say the N word what do the Chinese say about us you know how they call us they call us gulai whatever that word is know what that means round eye white ghost we are white fucking ghosts that's what we are we're here to destroy the fucking world trust me i'm telling you but at the same time we're built they call us that guilo that's what they call us white ghost they call black people something else but it's also a black ghost i don't know if it's why low it goes in that thing but that's the point man these it's not people like me and you are going to hurt this world it's the suits it's the fucking bankers it's that fucking guy that locked people up and now's in prison this is all like give him money to columbos he go to the very end of it when he goes crazy there's a there's a like a real short clip is what i thought we were going to play this is actually the whole thing isn't it this is the whole it's time he was on yeah a good this is it this is it baggy clothes on they didn't know i lost this is great pounds said we're gonna put you through the x -ray machine i'm standing there sweating bullets with this baggie under my fucking oh that's enough stop because the left nuts bigger than the right nut because i'm a righty stop people don't know that i thought i had cancer for a couple weeks he's like he's talking about carrying weed under his balls going to the airport and have this weed stinking you're like rodney danger listen stop walking fucking rodney i had this weed that was stinking up a storm not to mention my balls i'm sweating now because i'm going to go to jail tonight and he shook my hand i'm like my taxpayers are hard at work i'm smoking to you a politician who's talking to you like a christian he's lying so do you follow him saying to no i know we're talking about naked body scanners we're talking about children being molested by tsa we're talking we will listen to a politician with the same story every four years with that sorry -ass line of shit but these fucking momos get offended because I say the word fuck that's why you're around FEMA camps and the Ameri because they're too stupid to understand what's in front of them forget about the curse words at least the kid's not fucking lying so next time you listen to your bullshit congressman or your bullshit governor or even a bullshit president or somebody who's running for president and he's kicking you with that same four shit that they give you every four fucking years and you still vote for the fucking momo and then you get mad think about me saying the word fuck with that I'm a man I got to smoke a signal.

[2074] Hey, hold on.

[2075] We're making some very solid points.

[2076] Don't do the, don't, no, I know.

[2077] Joey, you get it.

[2078] I'm with you, but this is just to let the American public know that every four years they buy the same shit they've been buying maybe four years.

[2079] And the same people with their Harvard articulation and how they don't curse and they're Christians and they have a family.

[2080] And these are the same people that shove it up your fucking ass every year.

[2081] The one thing that you get about.

[2082] This is not the video.

[2083] There's an end to it where he goes crazy and says, check yourself before you're wreck yourself it's like hold on hold on one second here it is take a shuttle Joey BS Facebook Twitter check yourself before you wreck yourself big dicks in your ass I'm out of here you're in trouble you know I love that guy because he says what I'm thinking but he says it's so much better he's so crazy he's so fun he's so entertaining it's just a maniac it's fun having maniacs for friends just gives you a different perspective on things you realize oh that's a way to live too exactly no there's a lot of us that are different yeah he's just uh he's he's one of a kind and and i hadn't heard of him until i heard him on your show and now i'm a huge fan yeah well the internet has really been very kind of joey dyes because people you know it was very hard for a guy like that to show you what he can do without the internet can't do that on a radio show we just go off and go crazy his comedy it's very hard to see on regular tv unless it's showtime or HBO.

[2084] So he was in a lot of, it was in a weird category.

[2085] And then the internet came along and podcasting came along and then people just got to see who this.

[2086] Well, I'm glad he's, he's riding high now.

[2087] Yeah, yeah, finally.

[2088] It's like it.

[2089] He deserves it.

[2090] Yeah, well, without a doubt.

[2091] It's the, you know, the internet is just sort of catching up to, to, I mean, there's so many things you get exposed because of the internet, I mean, your podcast would never be on a radio show.

[2092] How could you ever have that on late night radio?

[2093] You know, there's no way they would ever play that.

[2094] It would be impossible.

[2095] No. There's no way.

[2096] Well, if you, you know, coast to coast or something, I know Terrence was on there a lot, but, you know, it's not, you know, it's too long, too late, stuff like that.

[2097] And yours, I mean, yours is very specifically pro -drug, too.

[2098] Oh, yeah.

[2099] That would be a real issue for sponsors.

[2100] Yeah, it would be.

[2101] I mean, every now and then, Art Bell would have McKenna on, they would discuss psilocybin, the stoned ape theory, and what have you, and it would be very fascinating.

[2102] But the amount of just raw information over and over and over again talking about, talking in a positive way about psychedelic experiences.

[2103] Like, there's never been anything like your show.

[2104] And if you think about it, you know, they don't talk about doing the drugs as much as about what they think about, the thoughts that come back.

[2105] You know, the show really would be called philosophy.

[2106] But, you know, can you imagine having, you know, hundreds of thousands of young people listening to a philosophy podcast?

[2107] But that's the category it's in.

[2108] It is if you stop and think about it.

[2109] Like most philosophical people, if you call yourself a philosopher, they're blowhards.

[2110] Yeah.

[2111] You know, they're people who pontific.

[2112] and philosophy without the drugs sucks it's very rare that it's right it's often overbearing often self -centered often not self -aware not objective and introspective it's missing an element that's a terrible thing to say but i think that without control of the ego it's very difficult to get philosophy right right it's very difficult to have unique ideas that are that express like Like the way that people, when someone wants to express a profound thought to you, if someone wants to express some sort of a life -changing idea that they've come upon and realize themselves, it's very difficult to do that sincerely without coming off like a blow heart and an asshole.

[2113] There's something about expressing yourself in ways that it seems like when people are trying to make profound statements, they're not just trying to make profound statements they're also trying to sound awesome they're also trying to impress people with their capturing of the English language and their use of prose but when someone says something like McKenna or someone says something like I mean there's been a million people that have said brilliant things Alan Watts is another one they've said something that just really rings true in an honest and unique way a little bit more than just philosophy.

[2114] It's a little bit more than just psychedelic.

[2115] It's like a combination of the two that sparks a conversation, period.

[2116] It sparks thinking.

[2117] It's like it's a seed of an idea that gets planted.

[2118] And when you hear it, or especially when you watch it, which is one of the beautiful things about these user -created YouTube videos, they're so visually stunning.

[2119] They draw you in that form as well.

[2120] The music they attach to them and then the actual words themselves, it's like the combination of them is so entertaining, captivating, and inspiring, that it becomes something way bigger than just philosophy.

[2121] Right.

[2122] It becomes philosophy that's effective.

[2123] It becomes philosophy that may actually change the way you think.

[2124] It's very difficult to go to a philosophy class and then change your way of life.

[2125] Sometimes it's boring and dull, but sometimes they just talk too much.

[2126] And they don't say anything interesting.

[2127] Like that's a big part of what people like when they like podcasts.

[2128] like a guy like Joey Diaz per se or a guy like Duncan Trussell, they're entertaining people.

[2129] It's not just that they're saying cool shit.

[2130] They're entertaining people.

[2131] And when you're not entertaining and you're just saying shit, you're doing it wrong.

[2132] You're missing a big percentage of what makes people listen to you.

[2133] Right.

[2134] And retain it.

[2135] And retain it.

[2136] Yeah, I mean, that is the medium of the fireside chat.

[2137] You know, that's where it came from.

[2138] One person would, you know, or several people would, you know, share stories.

[2139] But when you learned how to do it correctly, it became exciting for the people that were engaged in it.

[2140] And it became, you know, an educational experience as well as an entertaining experience.

[2141] Well, that's the way we started doing MDMA in Dallas back in the 80s is either a couple or maybe three couples at most.

[2142] And we'd all take it.

[2143] We'd get together with our spouse or our significant other for a while.

[2144] and then we'd get together in the last several hours we'd just be talking and it would be you know philosophical life changing and hey i notice you doing this see it lowers your it's like like lowering your fear barrier where you can say something to somebody and know you're not going to hurt their feelings yeah and so you the truth serum comes out and you can talk to your friends and your spouse or whatever and say you know this has been bother me lately well you know i thought maybe it was you know it's really a uh healing proposition that you do for yourselves and each other yeah i have had a conversation with a friend when I did ecstasy with him where he's asking me why I wouldn't lend him money to start his business.

[2145] It was like ordinarily, I would avoid that conversation like the plague.

[2146] Well, because I want to stay your friend.

[2147] You can't do that to friends.

[2148] That shit never works.

[2149] I'm not a bank.

[2150] There's banks there for a reason.

[2151] Nobody ever pays their friends back.

[2152] No. They just, I mean, I shouldn't say nobody, maybe.

[2153] But, you know, when somebody borrows 25 grand from you, most likely that shit's gone.

[2154] You know, when I started my computer company, the guy that was my mentor, he loaned me, loaned me, he loaned me some money to start my business.

[2155] I need to get home and have a toke.

[2156] He, uh, he loaned me some money to start the business.

[2157] And then years later before, I'd paid him back about half of it.

[2158] And then we went upside down.

[2159] And, uh, I was really upset about it.

[2160] And it wasn't a lot of money.

[2161] I owned them about, you know, $7 ,000, I guess.

[2162] It was a lot to me. And I was lamenting the fact that, you know, I couldn't pay him, but I would eventually.

[2163] He says, no, he says, and he, he, he had a big tugboat business.

[2164] And I, he said, when I said, when I started this business 25 years ago, my wife's father or father loaned me the money and that business went broke and two others went broke and he died before I could pay him back.

[2165] So that's his money.

[2166] You've got to find somebody to pay that to in the future, but not me. Wow.

[2167] Well, that's a very cool guy.

[2168] He was.

[2169] He was an amazing guy.

[2170] That's a very cool guy.

[2171] And it's very cool that you wanted to pay him back.

[2172] Are you making attempts to pay him back?

[2173] It's brutal though.

[2174] I've had several friends that have lost friendships because they loan some money money.

[2175] and this one friend boy it drove him crazy like he would talk about it like this guy would come over his house and this guy would hang out with him and the guy would never bring up the fact that he owed him all this money and it would drive him crazy and they would like look man I'm gonna pay you when I can pay you you know but he would find out the guy just bought a new this or a new that and he'd be like what's this is and so it became like a big part of his life it became like this thing because this guy was a friend and he didn't want to lose his friendship but he realized that the friendship was now all of a sudden this like really negative thing where he was constantly thinking hey i fucking pulled out money out of my account i lent it to you you have no intentions of fucking paying me back because i don't do anything about it because i don't threaten you i can't repossess your car i can't do anything that a bank can do it's fascinating thing when you see people that just they don't go all the way with stuff like they promise things they don't follow through they get an idea in their head and then they just fucking shut down and never finish it.

[2176] You know, well, I'm going to start this business.

[2177] But within, let me tell you something, within six months, I'm going to pay you back with 25 % interest.

[2178] It's impossible to lose.

[2179] And then six months later, what happened?

[2180] Man, you're not going to believe this.

[2181] We got fucked by our manufacturer, this and that.

[2182] So I'm out of business.

[2183] I don't know what you want to do.

[2184] What do I want to do?

[2185] You owe me a lot of money, man. Hey, look, you knew going in here, this would be a, I took a loss.

[2186] Like, oh, Jesus Christ.

[2187] And there you go.

[2188] People can't pay you back.

[2189] I mean, it happens over and over and over again.

[2190] There's a lot of people out there, just like when you were talking about people that need people to help them, you know, like people coming up to you, hey man, help me. This is it.

[2191] Hey, man, you just got to let me some money.

[2192] Like, there's other ways.

[2193] You know, there's other ways.

[2194] I guarantee you the best way is not borrowing money from your friends.

[2195] There's got to be a better way than that.

[2196] You need to figure out how to get some of that fucking money on your own.

[2197] It's not like we're in a totally closed system or it's impossible to get a job.

[2198] It may be difficult.

[2199] I understand.

[2200] But other people have figured it out.

[2201] It might be possible for you to figure it out.

[2202] This is not like something like holding your breath under water for an hour.

[2203] It seems like you can be done.

[2204] It's like, you know.

[2205] Do you ever have people come up to you and say, hey, make me laugh?

[2206] No. Really?

[2207] Because what I was thinking.

[2208] Tell me a joke.

[2209] Are your kids old enough for Nemo yet?

[2210] Yes.

[2211] So the little clownfish?

[2212] Oh, you're clownfish.

[2213] Make me laugh.

[2214] Make me laugh.

[2215] Yeah.

[2216] No, I mean, people have said, like, it's worth, the worst thing is when you're doing an interview.

[2217] And like, if you like do a radio or something like that, radio interview.

[2218] And they go, give us an example of your material.

[2219] I'm like, oh, Christ.

[2220] You got 15 minutes?

[2221] Yeah, well, no, it's like you can't just start a cold start.

[2222] It's stupid.

[2223] It's gross.

[2224] It's like just inept interviewing.

[2225] I had a friend that was a drummer, and we were in an after -hours club down in Kima, Texas, and my mentor actually got him, wanted him to play the drums in this band, and he didn't want to, he didn't want to, and he said, no, I'm here to party.

[2226] And finally, my friend bribes the band, gives him some money, and Tim gets on the drum.

[2227] drums, and he's just kind of playing a little bit.

[2228] And all of a sudden, the guitarist says, okay, take it.

[2229] And he hits the drum one time, bang.

[2230] He gets up and he says, you take it back now.

[2231] That was it.

[2232] That was funny.

[2233] Yeah.

[2234] It's, I think one of the things about psychedelics that really aids people is they get a chance to see how annoying they can be.

[2235] You know, I've met people that have changed a lot of their behavior and have apologized to friends and stuff for being an asshole or doing whatever.

[2236] just because of psychedelic trips.

[2237] I won't trip with anybody anymore.

[2238] You do it by yourself?

[2239] Yeah, I've had so many, and I don't do hardly any psychedelics anymore.

[2240] I start worrying about my heart now and all that.

[2241] Right.

[2242] But, you know, ayahuasca is different.

[2243] You know, if I had cancer years ago, if I had a recurrence, I'd go down in the jungle and spend a couple weeks.

[2244] You think that can fix you when you do that?

[2245] I think ayahuasca can fix anything.

[2246] You know, I'm a huge believer, and it's a miracle.

[2247] You know, it has changed my life.

[2248] more than anything else i've ever done wow that's strong words pretty awesome yeah it is pretty awesome isn't it it's another thing that we've pretty sweet if it was here it was legal at iowasca centers where people yeah you know it's it's it's uh in such a weird state because it is legal with some of the churches now but uh the you know it took me i was actively searching for it for about 10 years until all of a sudden i found it and and uh that's happened to so many people when you don't find it until you're ready for it and then it finds you and uh you know i've had had, you know, a lot of amazing experiences on it, some difficult ones, but that all in all, it gives me more positive feeling about this life and any other potential life than I've ever had.

[2249] It's, but it's very earth -centered, you know, I heard you talking to Graham Hancock about how everybody gets ecological on it.

[2250] And, you know, whereas acid is more mechanical, you know, you can do all kinds of problems and code and write and stuff like that.

[2251] And mushrooms are pretty mystical, but ayahuasca is earth -centered, you know, it's an earth.

[2252] earth spirit that you're playing or engaged with.

[2253] And it can be frightening and scary, but, you know, amazing things that happen to me. I try not to think too much about what happens after death because I'm close enough.

[2254] I'm going to find out sooner than I want to.

[2255] And at times I say, well, there's nothing there.

[2256] And other times I say there's something there.

[2257] But as it happened four days after my mother died, I had an ayahuasca experience with the circle that I've been with for quite a while.

[2258] and I didn't tell anybody that my mother had just died before the ceremony I didn't tell.

[2259] I didn't want to bum people out or anything.

[2260] And occasionally the Iowa's Carol will call individual people up to the front for a healing or something.

[2261] And this night he happened to call me and I go up to the front and it was amazing.

[2262] You know, my mother, I actually saw an image, a huge image of my mother floating over us like then.

[2263] Well, the next morning, you know, we all stay in the same room and sleep on the floor at night.

[2264] And the next morning we have a breakfast together.

[2265] And then we go around the circle and talk.

[2266] Three different people said, who was that spirit that appeared over your head when you're up there?

[2267] And that just really freaked me out because I thought, well, I'm imagining it.

[2268] I'm making up my head or whatever.

[2269] Three other people sensed in some regard that there was a spirit there.

[2270] And I said, well, I think it was my mother.

[2271] She just died.

[2272] Is that possible that it's also both?

[2273] Oh, it could be.

[2274] You know, I was thinking about it.

[2275] I could have projected it into the, you know, there's no question about, you know, I don't buy.

[2276] one way or the other.

[2277] I'm open -ended on it.

[2278] So all I know is that was a very moving experience for me and then other people saw something happen.

[2279] Now, maybe they were just feeling the vibration of what I was going through.

[2280] I wonder, I wonder if you could, I mean, I don't understand exactly what's going on when you're having any sort of a psychedelic experience, but I would imagine that if you are both in the same mindset, like if you and the person who's also on ayahuasca's in the room and you're all in the same sort of psychedelic mindset, there's got to be some sort of an exchange of of information that's coming from your head to their heads.

[2281] I mean, that's what they wanted to call it telepathy.

[2282] Telepathyne.

[2283] Yeah.

[2284] Before they discovered that it was already named, it was called Harmein.

[2285] I have a friend that had some really, a really demonstrable experiment like that that happened to him.

[2286] And so he and another person who were thinking the same thing at the same time, having the same vision.

[2287] What did they do?

[2288] What was it?

[2289] Uh, they had a, uh, uh, this one guy is on one corner of the room and he's thinking, uh, he was having some, uh, UFO experience where there was a spaceship and, and, uh, he was thinking about getting on the spaceship.

[2290] And just as he's thinking it, the guy on the other side of the room says, hey, don't forget, there's only room for 10 people.

[2291] they're opposite sides of the room quiet and stuff like that too i've heard people have really like uh unique visuals that everyone in the room had and i always wonder if maybe you can conjure up something with your imagination or with your focus your ideas you can conjure up sort of a psychic image in your mind and because everybody's tuned into this thing they see it in their hallucinogenic imagination as well definitely possible it's possible right i know and yet on the most intense experience I ever had, I was really, I'd never had an experience as transformative this as this in ayahuasca, and I can't even quite describe it, but I was shocked the next morning that the world hadn't ended and everybody had experienced this.

[2292] Nobody in the room was even close to this.

[2293] And I'd had the most transformative experience of my life.

[2294] And to them, it was just another night, you know.

[2295] Yeah, that's the weirdest thing about doing DMT, that you're sitting on a couch and outside your house nothing's changed.

[2296] But inside your head, the whirlwind of possibilities have opened and you've all of a sudden seen a world that couldn't possibly have ever existed even in your imagination just a few minutes before.

[2297] Even in your imagination is a strong statement, but it's absolutely true.

[2298] Once you do DMT, if you've never done it and you have a breakthrough experience, the one thing that everybody always says is I never saw that coming.

[2299] Right.

[2300] Never would imagine that that was possible.

[2301] Yeah, it's pretty awesome some of the things that do happen.

[2302] But, you know, whether they're happening in your head or somewhere else, it's just hard to say.

[2303] Or both.

[2304] Or both.

[2305] Yeah, ayahuasca, you know, there's, I think a lot of what happens is what your intention is going in.

[2306] Yeah.

[2307] And, you know, I had one experience where I wanted to get rid of my fear.

[2308] I was really, you know, I couldn't watch the fear factor because it was just so, made me fearful.

[2309] I'm a wimp, yeah.

[2310] No, that's not what I'm saying.

[2311] I'm making the wamp -want -want.

[2312] Yeah.

[2313] But, so I decided that was the night I wanted to get rid of fear.

[2314] And, you know, you fast.

[2315] Watching Fear Factory decided you wanted to go?

[2316] No, no, in ayahuasca.

[2317] It was my intention that night.

[2318] No, it wasn't Fear Factor.

[2319] I'd never go on it, but, so you fast the day before.

[2320] Right.

[2321] I've been fasting since around 8 in the morning.

[2322] I only had a few sips of water, so there's nothing in my stomach.

[2323] Sometimes you purge, you vomit, and sometimes you don't.

[2324] The first half dozen times I did it, I did not vomit.

[2325] And you get disappointed once you get into the purging, then you realize it's like being inside a fireworks display.

[2326] It's really spectacular.

[2327] It sounds gross.

[2328] Really?

[2329] So as you're throwing up, it's amazing?

[2330] Oh, it's amazing.

[2331] It just amps the whole experience up.

[2332] It's close to an orgasm.

[2333] Not real close, but that's what it'll bring to mind.

[2334] So anyhow, you sit there, and all of a sudden, a little voice will come in your head and said, grab your bucket, because you sit with an empty bucket.

[2335] Grab your bucket.

[2336] And whenever I hear that little voice, I grab my bucket because I know I'm going to start.

[2337] You got excited to throw up.

[2338] Not the first few times, but after a while I got into it.

[2339] And it said, grab your bucket and said, we're getting rid of your fear tonight.

[2340] And so I start purging and purging and purging.

[2341] And I said, oh, wow, I finally got rid of.

[2342] Oh, no, you got more to go.

[2343] And I purged for me 45 minutes.

[2344] And the next morning when I go to empty the bucket, there's a couple inches of black crap in this bucket, you know, and I didn't have hardly anything in my stomach.

[2345] And according to the way the shaman speak is your, it's psychic energy, you're purging.

[2346] And so I really had a visual pouring my fear down the toilet in the morning.

[2347] Damn, I would have saved that shit and sent it to a lab.

[2348] Did you imagine if they isolated a new compound?

[2349] I had never thought of that.

[2350] And it actually comes out of your body and they find out that fear is actually something exists in your body and can be removed.

[2351] Jeez, I wish I thought of that.

[2352] I don't know what lab I'd send it to.

[2353] What was it?

[2354] Maybe to find out it's just like spaghetti.

[2355] You have some old spaghetti.

[2356] It's just indigestion.

[2357] It's not fear.

[2358] Yeah.

[2359] So the years when you were smoking cigarettes, left some stuff on the walls.

[2360] Left some cigarette graffiti.

[2361] That's fascinating.

[2362] You should have taken pictures of it or something.

[2363] Well, you know, at the time, you don't really think of those things.

[2364] Is it possible that it was just all the ayahuasca you drank?

[2365] You drank two inches of Iowa.

[2366] Oh, no. You only drink a little shot glass.

[2367] A little shot glass.

[2368] Yeah.

[2369] So how was it two inches of liquid?

[2370] What was in it?

[2371] It was just bile.

[2372] It was in your stomach?

[2373] It was not real thick.

[2374] It was just bile, I guess.

[2375] It looked black.

[2376] What did it smell like?

[2377] Puk.

[2378] Puk.

[2379] Hmm.

[2380] Interesting.

[2381] Wow, you should have taken a picture of that.

[2382] That sounds like pretty intense stuff.

[2383] And then once it, is it possible that you were still high when you saw two inches of?

[2384] Yes.

[2385] I mean.

[2386] I love it.

[2387] That was awesome.

[2388] Yeah.

[2389] You know, see, you take, you drink it about.

[2390] 8 o 'clock at night or so.

[2391] Right.

[2392] And then by 2 in the morning, three in the morning, most of the people are back to baseline.

[2393] Sometimes you say, oh, yeah, I'm back to baseline, and you find you can't stand up.

[2394] But then you sleep on the floor there and get up in the morning.

[2395] By the next morning, you're pretty much back to baseline as far as the chemical, but you're still in the thrall of the thing, and you're somewhere else.

[2396] So, yeah, it might have been 2 millimeters.

[2397] Yeah.

[2398] But either way, there was something in there.

[2399] I'm not going to change my memory of it, though.

[2400] Yes, that's a good idea.

[2401] Just hang on to it.

[2402] That's how Jesus got started.

[2403] Write it down in about a year.

[2404] Yeah, he lasted for a while.

[2405] Tell it to a bunch of people, let it get crazier and crazier every time you tell it.

[2406] And then a few years later, write it down.

[2407] But write it down in, like, metaphors.

[2408] Right.

[2409] Write it down.

[2410] In Latin.

[2411] Yeah, and parables and, you know.

[2412] Zuss speak various.

[2413] Well, there's a guy in, there's a scholar in Jerusalem that, in Israel, who, who wants to, he's trying to push the idea that Moses was on psychedelics when he found the tablets and that the burning bush was actually the acacia bush, which is rich in DMT, and that's why it's burning.

[2414] Like in burning the bush, he saw God.

[2415] He's trying to say that what this meant was they burnt the contents of this plant.

[2416] You're just getting many, many, many, many translations.

[2417] From ancient Hebrew to Latin to Greek, the fact that to this day in ancient Hebrew, there's a lot of dispute about what things mean in the first place.

[2418] For folks who don't know, ancient Hebrew didn't have numbers.

[2419] So letters doubled as numbers.

[2420] So the letter A was also the number one.

[2421] Right.

[2422] So words had numerical value, like the word love and the word God, have the same numerical value.

[2423] It's a really strange system that we lost the context of all these magical sort of definitions of things and descriptions of things because there was mathematical qualities to these words.

[2424] To this day, it's such a unique way of looking at this.

[2425] things in comparison to how we look at things today, we look at words, and then we look at mathematics as being completely separate.

[2426] They had it all kind of combined together in some sort of a weird ancient language that doesn't exist anymore.

[2427] So when people try to translate it, and then you go from that to Latin and Greek and, you know, it's gone.

[2428] It's all weird now.

[2429] So when these guys are trying to go back and look at these original descriptions, they say, well, burning bush might very well be the acacia bush.

[2430] It makes sense.

[2431] It's prominent.

[2432] in the area, and if they had figured out a way to get DMT from this bush, they had figured out a way to do some kind of a process and extract it, that could be how they described it.

[2433] And that was one of the things that John Marco Alegro had said about the Bible.

[2434] When they had studied the Dead Sea Scrolls, and he wrote that book, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, he was saying that they were trying to hide these things from the Romans when they were capturing, and people were originally writing these things down.

[2435] And what they really were were descriptions of psychedelic mushroom consumption and of fertility cults.

[2436] And that they hid all these in stories and in parables because they wanted to keep the information, but they didn't want other people to be able to access it.

[2437] By the way, I heard you mention that book before and you said you got an old copy.

[2438] We've got a couple old copies.

[2439] John Urban has republished it.

[2440] So it's still a bit.

[2441] You can get it on Amazon.

[2442] Yeah, it's very cool that he's done that.

[2443] Yeah, you can get it now.

[2444] When I bought it, I bought it many, many years ago because of Jack Harer.

[2445] Yon introduced me to Jack Harer, and Jack Harer was working on a book with this other guy who turned out to be a pedophile.

[2446] They wanted to murder in jail or something like that.

[2447] Really crazy stuff.

[2448] But they were working on this book about Santa Claus and the connection between Santa Claus and the Aminida Muscaria mushroom.

[2449] Right, yeah, I read all that.

[2450] Yeah, that was basically all his work.

[2451] And then it was the connection between psilocybin mushrooms and religious experience.

[2452] And Jack Herrera had all these old images, like really old images of ancient paintings that showed naked people dancing under this translucent mushroom and that there was their way of describing being under the ecstasy of mushrooms.

[2453] And then he showed me all these different religious institutions and buildings and places that had mushroom -shaped doorways and had mushroom iconography and then mushrooms all over the place that you didn't even think of were mushrooms.

[2454] Like the way a cardinal's outfit is red and white and the whole...

[2455] Like you see, like saying, like what they're signifying is mushrooms.

[2456] The ancient images of halos, you've seen those, right?

[2457] The ancient images of halos is a mushroom cap.

[2458] I mean, it is a mushroom cap.

[2459] It literally is.

[2460] I've seen a lot of those old images in the first century, the so -called Christian churches had a lot of mushrooms in them.

[2461] Yeah, they didn't have that Hulu -Hoon thing floating above their head.

[2462] They have this thing behind them, which show...

[2463] This mushroom cap, I mean, with literally all the lines underneath the cap.

[2464] Pull up images if you can.

[2465] There's an article where I linked to it.

[2466] It was Santa Claus was a mushroom.

[2467] I wrote it in like 2007 for my website.

[2468] It's on joe rogan .net.

[2469] And I put in it a bunch of photographs, a couple of them of ancient people that had mushroom caps for their for their.

[2470] It's only about the last few thousand years that this has been suppressed.

[2471] You know, it was pretty active psychedelic in the ancient times.

[2472] It's amazing that this is all true.

[2473] This sounds like nonsense.

[2474] Right.

[2475] I mean, this sounds like some flat earth shit.

[2476] Like when you hear, if you don't know any better and you're, you know, you're listening to you and I talk about this, like, wait a bit.

[2477] But it's well documented.

[2478] Yeah.

[2479] There's a lot of documentation about it.

[2480] There's a lot of information that shows that there was, you know, not just the Christian religion, but many, many, many, many, many religions were aware of psychedelic mushrooms.

[2481] Here, Jamie's going to pull up this.

[2482] Did you find it yet?

[2483] The images that Jack Harrow showed me were really unique, and I haven't been able to locate him since.

[2484] He was in the middle of a book before he had his stroke.

[2485] Right, that's a shame.

[2486] Yeah, it was really sad.

[2487] I'd met him, and then he had a stroke, and then he had a second stroke as well.

[2488] I met him, I believe, after the first one.

[2489] He was because he was having difficulty talking then, but it wasn't as bad, and then apparently he had a bad.

[2490] one.

[2491] But they were in the middle of creating this book.

[2492] And his, you know, his story was fascinating because Jack Herr, like you, was a Republican.

[2493] He was a Goldwater Republican, as he describes it.

[2494] And then he got divorced, met a girl, smokes and pop there.

[2495] And the world opened up.

[2496] Do do, do, do.

[2497] Well, you know, a lot of the UFO thing may be a DMT release.

[2498] About 10 or 12 years ago, I corresponded with Whitney Stryberg because in one of his books, he had said something that to me He sounded just like a DMT trip.

[2499] And he allowed his, hey, that might be possible.

[2500] And then about a year or so later, he did a radio show with Strassman, that you were in his movie, Spirit Molecule.

[2501] And the two agreed that some of the abduction experiences could be a spontaneous release of DMT.

[2502] Yeah, it makes sense.

[2503] I mean, when you think about it, why are all these experiences where people getting abducted all happening in the middle of the night?

[2504] And that's when your brain is producing the most DMT.

[2505] allegedly.

[2506] I mean, they know for a fact now.

[2507] That's been proven by the Cottonwood Research work that Strassman's done, Cottonwood Research Foundation.

[2508] They've found DMT in a live rats pineal gland.

[2509] They found that recently.

[2510] So they know for a fact that the pineal gland is a source of DMT.

[2511] That's the first I've heard that of real research, because I've been speculated on, but nobody'd really tinned it down.

[2512] Yeah, that's a, I'll pull up the article because it's pretty interesting found in live rats pineal gland.

[2513] It's I mean, that's one thing that they've always pointed to it.

[2514] There's a lot of anecdotal evidence, especially the ancient religious work of the third eye itself, being this symbol of mysticism, much like the mushroom cap being the halo.

[2515] Well, we're just now getting back, and unfortunately we've lost so much information that humans had at one time about these substances, but I think part of the transition that took place was, you know, the rights of elusis were, You know, so many thousands of people went through that.

[2516] That lasted for a couple thousand years, but in about 300 BC, the state took over control of the rights.

[2517] And once the government took over control, things changed.

[2518] This is the article on the Cottonwood Research .org website, which is Strassman's Foundation.

[2519] It says we're excited to announce the acceptance of, for publication of a paper, documenting the presence of DMT and the pineal gland of live rodents.

[2520] The paper will appear in the journal, biomedical chromatography and describes experiments that took place in Dr. G -mo B -W -W -W -W -W -T -E -I -G -I -G -I -N.

[2521] B -O -R -J -I -G -N.

[2522] How do you say that?

[2523] Or does a J -N -A -G together, bitch, what are you trying to do to people?

[2524] Why the fuck would you put a J -N -A -G together?

[2525] One of the other, you greedy bitch.

[2526] They're both G sounds.

[2527] Pick one.

[2528] Pick one.

[2529] What is that saying?

[2530] see those images do you see the one of there that's it yeah i mean that is about as clear as day that's the bottom of a goddamn mushroom you see where the spores would come out well there's one don't go to youtube there's one on my website it's not i can't get to it it's not there did you google it yeah okay hmm the fuck happened so have you ever seen a machine elf or a self -transforming basketball no i haven't either but you know what i finally figured out those self -transforming basketballs i figured out i'm seeing the same thing but i wouldn't call it that i'd call it something else.

[2531] Excuse me. And that's why I never describe what I see because then you plant that seed in somebody's head.

[2532] And Terrence did plant the seed of the self -transforming machine elves and the basketballs, jeweled basketballs.

[2533] And I think that if you get rid of those words, those labels, you'll see things that you could say, well, I could say that, but I'd rather say this about it.

[2534] So a lot of people get disappointed when they smoke DMT and they don't see the machine elves and the basketballs.

[2535] Yeah, I don't know what that means.

[2536] means, the machine elves, the basketballs, all this stuff.

[2537] Is my website down or something like that?

[2538] It was linking back to the new podcast site for some reason.

[2539] Oh, so the links are bad?

[2540] Is that what it is?

[2541] Maybe.

[2542] No way.

[2543] Really?

[2544] Hmm.

[2545] Okay, well, I found it in two seconds.

[2546] If you go to WordPress, you can still find it, but the images aren't there anymore.

[2547] I found that didn't have any images, which is what I was looking for.

[2548] I've got to get these guys to fix my website.

[2549] That's bullshit.

[2550] Although that stuff should be up there with photographs.

[2551] Not up there?

[2552] None of it's up there?

[2553] Oh, great.

[2554] Not that way, at least it's somewhere else.

[2555] How dare they?

[2556] But I think it's probably pretty obvious.

[2557] If you're dealing with people that lived a long time ago, and we know for a fact that these substances existed a long time ago.

[2558] They've been here forever.

[2559] So people would have found them.

[2560] They would have ate them.

[2561] They would have freaked out, and they would have told everybody or tried to tell people that they cared about.

[2562] Just like we do.

[2563] Just like we do.

[2564] I mean, without a doubt, it's got to be like one of the most powerful things that can happen to a person.

[2565] and outside of dying.

[2566] Yeah.

[2567] Outside of having children, dying, losing a loved one, what have you.

[2568] One of the most powerful things and experiences that you can have is a psychedelic one.

[2569] It shouldn't be missed.

[2570] Whether you never have a second one or not, you should at least have one.

[2571] Yeah, it's, well, it's just amazing that it's illegal still.

[2572] Yes.

[2573] It's amazing that they've been able to hold on this long.

[2574] With everything that we know now about what is legal, we talked about before, cigarettes.

[2575] What are you trying to do?

[2576] You're trying to keep everybody weak?

[2577] you know if I was inclined to believe that that's there's the evidence right there if I was inclined to believe they are trying to keep people stupid and weak well I buy into Terrence's a theory that nobody's in charge you know there's a bunch of competing groups that have a lot of power but not any one of them is in charge calling the shots and most of them are pretty stupid people that you know we think some of these people are maybe smart because they have money or something most of inherited it or they got it as a derivative trader or something but most people in Congress and politics and no matter who you meet you know they're like you and I we're all you know some of them have experience in these jobs but we shouldn't give them all this credence of being knowing all no it's they live a life that's that's the momentum of what they've done the past and what their ancestors have done how they've gotten to this position because of their family name and the business that they grew up in and what have you it's just a momentous thing and once the family controls a certain amount whether it's the world bank or whether it's whatever the fucking you know your corporation your family owns Once someone has that kind of power and control, they're not very, it's not very likely that they're going to be willing to let that go.

[2578] And they bring their children up in that same moment.

[2579] You know, they're going to private schools or meeting the same friends who are from the same kind of families.

[2580] And so it's an inbreeding kind of thing.

[2581] It's one of the problems with capitalism.

[2582] But I also think it's one of the yins and the yangs of life and one of the reasons why there's so much motivation for people to get things together today.

[2583] It's because we see so much evil and corruption and hypocrisy.

[2584] We see it, so we get motivated.

[2585] Well, the Internet's changed everything.

[2586] We can see things without going through a corporate sensor now, too.

[2587] Yeah, that's never happened before.

[2588] And I think people are way more informed now because of that.

[2589] Oh, the Internet's changed all the rules.

[2590] You know, if the Internet was around the 60s, there would have been a different outcome.

[2591] But I think that what's going on now is going to make the 60s look like the 50s, you know.

[2592] Things are changing.

[2593] I think slowly but surely people are waking up to the idea that we aren't the same people that we were in just 1994.

[2594] Oh, seven years ago, there was no iPhone.

[2595] That has changed a lot of things.

[2596] Yes, apps and, you know, Twitter and Facebook and all that jazz.

[2597] Just the ability to get, like, I love Twitter because I get links sent to me. Like, check out this new scientific finding.

[2598] Look at this new discovery.

[2599] Check out this video.

[2600] This is amazing.

[2601] This guy made this and look at that.

[2602] It's like the amount of interesting information that comes to you directly on your phone on a daily basis is pretty staggering.

[2603] Well, you know, when we were first trying to get the Internet going in the phone companies, there wasn't a lot of acceptance.

[2604] Nobody, the banks wouldn't talk to us, the government wouldn't talk to us, but our company bought BBN, which built the original routers and had control about a third of the backbone.

[2605] And we were watching, you know, say, oh, there's already a million people connected to the Internet.

[2606] Oh, there's 2 million.

[2607] Now there's 5 million.

[2608] And we're comparing with how fast phones rolled out.

[2609] and it was just several orders of magnitude faster.

[2610] But to get to where we are today, I don't think anybody 10 years ago would have predicted it.

[2611] You know, to have a billion people connected already?

[2612] Nobody saw it coming, and nobody knows what's going to be here in 10 years.

[2613] Oh, yeah, it would be crazy to try to predict it.

[2614] It's going to be way weirder.

[2615] But, you know, and the iPhone, in the iPad, and all the wireless.

[2616] You know, when I was in the business, I was at dinner afterwards, we get to, I was representing the phone company, so they'd take me out to wine and dine me. and talking to this one guy who was the president of a new combination of Netflix, Netscape, and Sun, they formed an alliance.

[2617] And their senior vice president was saying, hey, you need to start doing more research and development in Wi -Fi.

[2618] And this was before, you know, there was essentially no wireless.

[2619] And this was only like, I don't know, 14 years ago or something.

[2620] And I said, oh, the wireless, that's not going to work.

[2621] And he says, we're putting all of our R &D money into it because we're all living up in the hills over San Jose.

[2622] And there's no internet connectivity.

[2623] And by the time we retire, we want high -speed wireless internet in our home.

[2624] That was a lot of the motivation for doing that.

[2625] Wow.

[2626] That's interesting.

[2627] A personal interest.

[2628] And, you know, one of the things people don't want to talk about, about the Internet, but since we were running part of the backbone, I could go to, you know, watch the network, the knock, and watch them manage the traffic on the backbone of the Internet.

[2629] And it was in a weekday, around 3 .30 or 4 o 'clock, about the network.

[2630] big spike would hit of usage on the East Coast.

[2631] And as the time would go, four or five, by six o 'clock, the East Coast spike would go down, and the Midwest would be up, and then it was like a pig going through a python, and it was young kids coming home from school before their parents were there downloading porn.

[2632] Without porn, the phone companies wouldn't have put all that money into the backbone because it was huge business, you know.

[2633] Isn't that how it always works, though?

[2634] That's how the video recorder, videotape, came out, you know, because people could watch porn at home.

[2635] Yeah, VHS, the VHS market.

[2636] I bought a beta.

[2637] Did you really?

[2638] You were one of those guys?

[2639] Yeah.

[2640] They were supposed to be better, though, weren't they?

[2641] Well, yeah, but you couldn't get many titles on it.

[2642] The quality was better.

[2643] Yeah, the quality is supposed to be better.

[2644] You got to go with whatever the mass -produced thing is.

[2645] Do you remember those things that you used to have to go through to look at the porn?

[2646] You just have to go through beads or other?

[2647] The saloon doors.

[2648] And you go in a little cubby hole or something like that, yeah.

[2649] You'd have to go through saloon doors in order to get to the porn section.

[2650] And in the afternoons, you can see the cars from all the salesmen's cars are parked out there, you know.

[2651] Yeah, and people just look at you so scurly, like, oh, look at that person over that.

[2652] Yeah, I can't believe I'm in this place, you know.

[2653] What are you doing over there.

[2654] Don't sit down on the seat.

[2655] Yeah, people are interesting like that.

[2656] They don't want you to know that they like sex.

[2657] Or, like, masturbating.

[2658] They don't want to pretend somehow.

[2659] Yeah, like they never do it.

[2660] Yeah, it's a fascinating aspect of us.

[2661] We're so weird.

[2662] I don't think the humans have always been that way, you know.

[2663] I think that's...

[2664] Really?

[2665] I think, you know, the last 2 ,000 years have been pretty repressive.

[2666] What happened?

[2667] Christianity.

[2668] Largely.

[2669] Really?

[2670] Yeah, I think organized religion.

[2671] You know, the sex thing was weird because we know there's a lot of sex going on in the clergy, you know, but, you know, the boy sex, etc. I think it's been, you know, you read about the Borgia, popes and stuff like that.

[2672] You know, the higher elevations of the church have always been big involved in sex, but they've been telling the people, no, no, no. Well, they used to have sex like popes and priests and bishops.

[2673] They used to have sex with women.

[2674] Oh, yeah.

[2675] They used to be, like, totally normal.

[2676] They had kids, some of the popes.

[2677] Yeah, but they were getting so much pussy.

[2678] Oh, they just got so out of control.

[2679] Hey, I'm the pope.

[2680] You know, who's going to say no?

[2681] Exactly.

[2682] And so people go, and you know what?

[2683] Listen, that's it.

[2684] You can't have sex anymore.

[2685] Yeah.

[2686] Which is hilarious.

[2687] Unless you become a priest and join our little group here.

[2688] But even then, you know, you have an undercover sex with kids.

[2689] You know, like, how, the idea that an undercover group of kid fuckers could run a gigantic cult that would encampure like a billion people worldwide.

[2690] That in 2013 is one of the most incredible facts about our reality.

[2691] Yeah.

[2692] You know, I was, I was raised Catholic and altar boy.

[2693] I served Mass all through four years of college, even.

[2694] Did you ever get touched?

[2695] Huh?

[2696] Never once.

[2697] Never once?

[2698] Never approached, never touched.

[2699] Nobody offered you a cigarette or a drink?

[2700] Not a thing.

[2701] Come on.

[2702] Father Carolina's room for a drink.

[2703] You know, all those four years, I was an altar boy in college, I never went to communion because I wouldn't go to confession because I didn't want to tell him I masturbated.

[2704] That's funny.

[2705] That, you know, during all that time, I was never once approached, but a guy, he became a priest.

[2706] He was a close friend of mine when he was a kid.

[2707] We went to Boy Scout Camp to California.

[2708] he turned out to be a pedophile priest you know it's a real tragedy for the family you know we knew all these and you know they think that that happens just because of repression that someone has access to no sex and then when they're around kids they just almost are overwhelmed with yeah you know you know how you are when you're 20 years old and that's all you think about and if you're if you're repressed you know maybe go wherever the first option is and opportunity is but i don't think he was actually molested as as a child because he and i went to you know, through the same priests and everything.

[2709] And I'm pretty sure he wasn't molested.

[2710] This happened to him after he got to the seminary.

[2711] Wow, that's horrible.

[2712] Yeah, it's a shame.

[2713] It's even more horrible if the actual act of making someone celibate sort of perpetrates this and turns people in some ways, you know, towards having sex with almost basically anybody they can.

[2714] Celibacy is going to go away eventually.

[2715] I hope so.

[2716] It hasn't been here only a few hundred years anyhow.

[2717] Well, religions are going to go away, too.

[2718] Well, the idea.

[2719] Yeah, I mean, but this, the idea that people have done that throughout time is also another disturbing fact of civilization when you find out about Socrates and, you know, they had sex with young boys on a regular basis.

[2720] Well, that still happens in some countries, I know, that we had a friend who told us some real, what I consider horror stories, that they considered sort of normal behavior, you know?

[2721] Yeah, I've had friends that have gone to Afghanistan described, you know, what they call man -loved Thursdays or a boy -love Thursdays.

[2722] I don't know how much is true and how much is not, but you know, the idea that people have sex with young boys for pleasure and women for procreation.

[2723] Right.

[2724] And that this is, you know, practice has been in human society.

[2725] I can't get my head around that.

[2726] Well, hopefully the internet will expose that as well.

[2727] I mean, I wonder what it would take to psychically clean us up of all our weird patterns that we're caught up in and trapped in.

[2728] Regular and frequent psychedelic experiences.

[2729] That could help.

[2730] And also communication.

[2731] Oh.

[2732] And communication in a way that we've never.

[2733] I think psychedelics lubricate communications.

[2734] You know, first of all, there's a lot of things that you can't even put words around.

[2735] And so you get together and you start trying to do art or music or some way to do that.

[2736] And let's communicate and get a new language.

[2737] Look at what all Alex Gray has done.

[2738] Yeah.

[2739] You know, in getting that message out there.

[2740] So you're right.

[2741] Look how far we've come in our lifetime.

[2742] You know, we're nowhere near where I want to be.

[2743] but I've been in New Orleans when I had to look at a white drinking fountain, black drinking fountain, where to sit on the street car, and, you know, that, you know, segregation is still here, but it's not nearly as bad as it was.

[2744] It's not quite as sanctioned as it was.

[2745] And, you know, women's rights are a little bit better.

[2746] And my son was able to get married to the man he loved, you know.

[2747] So we are making some social progress and probably making a lot more in a short period of time than we realized.

[2748] Yeah, that's where the exponential growth really kicks in, is in social progress.

[2749] And, you know, like, I've made fun of a lot of, like, really heavy -duty lefties, you know, people that are, like, ultra -progressive to the point of being ridiculous.

[2750] But I kind of appreciate the effort because this powerful, strong effort for whatever it is.

[2751] I mean, I've gotten in trouble for saying that I don't think a transgender man who became a woman should be able to fight in women's MMA.

[2752] My point is from the safety of the athlete.

[2753] but people have defended transgender people because of the fact that they automatically stand up for someone they feel like as being oppressed and I appreciate that.

[2754] I appreciate the idea behind that.

[2755] I appreciate the sentiment behind that.

[2756] And I think that's fascinating as a culture that there are people that if you repress gay rights, they will go after you and they will write.

[2757] I think that's a good thing.

[2758] Whether it's misguided or not, and a lot of times it is when it comes to certain aspects of progressive thinking, the fact that heavy -duty lefty behavior exists and exists in like big groups and big organized groups, I think is very important.

[2759] I think it's very important because it balances out the heavy -duty right -end group, right -wing, right -leaning groups.

[2760] I think all those things eventually with education and with the undeniable truth that the internet presents will find some sort of a comfortable medium of truth where really self -aggrandizing douchey behavior in the left is just as gross as self -aggrandizing, duchy behavior on the right.

[2761] And people realize that compassion does not have to have an ideology attached to it.

[2762] It should be a part of how human beings behave.

[2763] You know, when I was a Republican, I was not a bad person.

[2764] I was very misinformed.

[2765] You know, and I came up from the poor side of the street.

[2766] You know, my dad didn't have a car when I was growing up and stuff.

[2767] And so I, you know, I made a lot of money.

[2768] And I thought, oh, this is great.

[2769] I did this on my own.

[2770] But I didn't, you know, I've decided that until, everybody has the same advantages as a white college educated American male I'm not allowed to complain that it's not even then if it's not you know you know I've had so many even though we didn't have money I was I had so many advantages oh we're running out of time here so but we but I would like to talk to you a little bit more do you want to talk some more sure what's end this and we'll talk a little bit more okay so we'll say thanks to everybody for tuning into the podcast thanks to legal zoom .com go to legalzoom .com go to legalzoom .com use the code rogan and save yourself some cash thanks also to ting go to rogan .tting .com and save yourself 25 bucks off of any new phone on ting bring your iPhones over from sprint and you can use them there and thanks also to onit .com go to on n i2 use the code name rogan save 10 % off any and all supplements all freaks we'll see in a minute