#1745 - Matt Taibbi

[0] Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

[1] The Joe Rogan Experience.

[2] Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[3] So you like it down here better?

[4] I love it.

[5] Yeah.

[6] I love it.

[7] Yeah.

[8] People are so nice.

[9] There's less of them, so they're not a burden.

[10] We up?

[11] Yeah, you know, I think big cities, you just, people just become in your, they get in your way.

[12] Right.

[13] And no one's in your way here.

[14] Everyone's friendly.

[15] Yeah.

[16] It's like normal.

[17] They're normal people.

[18] Plus, it's not tainted by show business.

[19] As much as people try to pretend that Hollywood doesn't have an effect on their lives, I'm in real estate.

[20] Get the fuck out of here.

[21] Like, everyone is tainted by the weirdness of that city.

[22] Yeah.

[23] Because it's a city that's predicated on being full of shit.

[24] Like, you have to pretend or something.

[25] Yeah, like, everybody, as soon as they're talking, they start lying basically, right?

[26] It's like an angle.

[27] For sure, like, they're selling themselves and promoting an angle.

[28] And out here, no one's doing that.

[29] Right.

[30] it's so refreshing it's like this is mike he does he makes barbecue oh hi mike like mike's a normal guy you know must take some time to sort of decompensate and decompress get back to it took a few weeks that's it and then i was like yeah i embraced it right away because you know we when we moved here um we i started looking in may of 2020 i was like i'm getting the fuck out of here i see the writing on the wall because there was two weeks to stop the spread and flatten the curve I'm like, okay, make sense.

[31] That makes sense.

[32] I was all on board.

[33] And then as time went on, I'm like, this is not two weeks.

[34] And then they were talking about more restrictions, and then they were shutting down outdoor dining and this and that.

[35] And I was like, what are they doing?

[36] Oh, they're enjoying this.

[37] They're enjoying telling people what to do, which is just basic human nature.

[38] To pretend that they would, that government agencies, that people who wanted to be mayor, people that wanted to be governor, would somehow or another, avoid all the pitfalls that are just naturally a part of being a person when a person has power especially power over a bunch of people that are scared and you're offering solutions and you're standing there and we have to keep the safety of our communities in mind right you know that kind of shit yeah I think that's a big story of modern America is people just not being able to deal with the idea that there just aren't solutions for some things that you just for some things you just can't fix it by Fiat.

[39] What's fascinating to me, though, is that people will blame everyone except the people that were actually responsible for the virus.

[40] Right.

[41] Like, this is a virus that most likely, I mean, I'm not 100 % sure, but I'm about 90 % sure that this thing came from a fucking laboratory.

[42] And all the stuff that I've read and all the emails from Peter Dasick and Fauci and the NIH, when you look at the way they were looking at it and how they were kind of panicked and then you look at their absolute their belief that supposedly they're broadcasting that there's no way it could have come from a lab and then you see their actual emails and you go oh you fuckers like you know you know this probably came from a lab and you're doing your best job to try to obfuscate to try to confuse people to try to muddy the water and make it let just get just get it as far away from you as you can but the reality is is this probably came from a fucking lab.

[43] But that's not what people are mad at.

[44] People are mad at people who take alternative medications.

[45] People are mad at people who downplay the severity of it.

[46] People are mad at, they're mad at all kinds of things.

[47] But they're not mad at the fucking source.

[48] The actual source, which is most likely that level four biolab in Wuhan, China, most likely.

[49] Yeah, at minimum, those emails show that they thought they had a serious PR problem on their hands.

[50] I mean, I think you can look at them in a number of different ways.

[51] But at minimum, it shows that to be charitable.

[52] To be totally charitable.

[53] And that should have been a big story all by itself.

[54] And it wasn't.

[55] Yeah, it wasn't.

[56] It's a strange time.

[57] But this is normal.

[58] This is a normal time when people are under heavy anxiety.

[59] Because most people do not know how to handle like extreme stress or scary unknown situations.

[60] That's why they like a normal job that starts at nine, it ends at five, and you have two weeks paid vacation, and you have this and you have your that, and everything's laid out, and you know what to expect.

[61] People do not like when you don't know what to expect.

[62] Yeah, I mean, that was a big thing for me. I lived in Russia for so many years, and in Moscow there were constant terrorist attacks at the time because the Chessians and the Russians were having these issues.

[63] But when 9 -11 happened in the United States, people were traumatized by that beyond all proportion, it seemed to me, because in America, we're just not used to having to deal with all sorts of things.

[64] Yeah.

[65] And so they just don't deal well with stress when it's an unusual situation.

[66] It has to, they have to be in the kind of the lane of safety.

[67] Yeah.

[68] Yeah, it's, um, we're not used to it.

[69] I mean, it's weird because we start so many wars.

[70] Yeah.

[71] And we don't have any of them over here.

[72] Right, right, exactly.

[73] So fucked, exactly.

[74] I have a good buddy of mine who's my former kickboxing trainer.

[75] Shout out to Shuki.

[76] He lives in Israel, but he lived in America for a little while and he went back to Israel.

[77] But, um, I, I was hanging out with him and his family over his house one night for dinner.

[78] And they're playing the bongo drums and dancing and, like, they're really, like, festive people.

[79] And I go, why are Israelis like so happy?

[80] And he goes, because over in Israel, you'll never know.

[81] Right.

[82] He goes, at any minute you could die.

[83] So fucking party.

[84] Party, party.

[85] Like, you know, it was just, he was always happy.

[86] Right.

[87] But he had this attitude because of the conditions.

[88] Because there's a real fear in the air.

[89] Right.

[90] The presence of death is all around you.

[91] So you're more conscious of living life.

[92] Yeah, absolutely.

[93] And America, it's completely the opposite.

[94] Exactly.

[95] It's the opposite.

[96] We are basically like.

[97] trust -fund kids, you know, in terms of, like, how we handle the real adversity of the world.

[98] And forget about just the stuff that we create.

[99] I mean, if anything natural occurred, any, like, real disaster occurred, you'd see mad panic in the streets.

[100] All these, there's so many people out there that are prepping and so many people that prepare.

[101] But are you really?

[102] Are you really ready?

[103] Right.

[104] Because I don't think you are.

[105] Right.

[106] I think when the shit actually hits the fan, it's a tiny, a small.

[107] as a percentage of the people, they're going to be able to, like, gather up their senses and make some sense out of this and regroup.

[108] Yeah, but I think they're not preparing because they're enjoying being miserable right now.

[109] I mean, you were talking about that before, but yeah, no, this is like the most unfun period in American history, at least in my lifetime.

[110] Yeah.

[111] It's unfunny.

[112] Entertainment isn't fun.

[113] I don't know.

[114] It's miserable.

[115] Well, it's very tense.

[116] Yeah.

[117] It's very tense.

[118] And there's a lot of people that are profiting off of that tension.

[119] There's a lot of anger merchants out there, you know, that are essentially elevating their brand by just getting mad at things and having the least charitable view of people, the least charitable view of situations, the most polarizing arguments of right versus left and vaccinated versus unvaccinated.

[120] Yeah.

[121] No, I spent a lot of time on this.

[122] The press aspect of it is just horrible because financially, you know, that's the way these businesses work now.

[123] They're trying to create an addictive experience of being upset and they know exactly how to do it.

[124] And they've kind of moved all the people in the business who used to be, who used to do the job of moderating and making sure that people saw all the different sides of the issue.

[125] They've all been kind of shoved out of the business, and now it's just one gigantic anxiety machine.

[126] You know, if you turn on MSNBC or CNN or, you know, or even Fox, you know, basically their job is to get you worked up about stuff.

[127] Well, that's the only way they can make money.

[128] Exactly.

[129] That's what's so crazy about the world that we're living in.

[130] But what's interesting is, I think the positive aspect of this, and let's try to find the silver lining, right?

[131] I think the positive aspect of this is it's really highly.

[132] the importance of independent media.

[133] You know, people like Crystal and Sager from Breaking Points, Kyle Kalinsky, Glenn Greenwald, yourself, these independent journalists who I can turn to, I go, okay, I know if I'm reading a Matt Taibi article, you're going to tell me exactly what's going on.

[134] And there's not many of you.

[135] Right.

[136] There's a small handful of you where I know I can get unbiased, intelligent observations.

[137] Yeah, no, it's great.

[138] And this, I think a lot of people in what we're finding, and you're of course familiar with this, is that there's a massive audience out there that is very frustrated with traditional media, the manipulative aspects of it, the predictability of it.

[139] And so, yeah, they're coming to places like Substack.

[140] And I spent my whole life in the media business.

[141] I had an editor once who called it, managing the decline.

[142] Like, the expectation in media was always that there was going to be less and less money forever because audiences were dwindling because they just didn't like the product that we were putting out.

[143] In independent media now, it's the opposite.

[144] It's skyrocketing.

[145] There's incredible growth.

[146] You obviously know this.

[147] Substack is doing amazingly well.

[148] Yeah.

[149] It's a very bizarre experience as a journalist to be part of that.

[150] But it's been really, really cool.

[151] I don't think it would be possible any other way.

[152] I think there has to be this massive decline in the believability of CNN and, you know, fill in the blank, like whatever mainstream big time publication.

[153] The fucking Rolling Stone, when they printed that horsey -wormer story about Oklahoma, I'm like, Jesus Christ, do you guys not have anybody working there that can fact, look at the photo they used.

[154] It's Oklahoma in the summer, and you got people with winter coats on.

[155] Right.

[156] Are you guys out of your fucking minds?

[157] Like, what is going on over there?

[158] So what happens in media is we have this expectation that if something is published in another reputable news organization, we assume that it's been checked and that it's true.

[159] Somewhere down the line, whoever did the original reporting actually checked it.

[160] And what happened in that case is, you know.

[161] Let's explain what the story was so people can follow us.

[162] So basically, uh, an evening.

[163] ER, if I remember correctly, in Oklahoma, in rural Oklahoma, gave an interview to a TV station.

[164] And essentially, he was saying that there was a problem with people who were taking Ivermectin, and they were getting so sick that they were lining up outside the ERs and preventing people who had gunshot wounds from being treated, right?

[165] Yes.

[166] Now, me as a reporter, if I hear that story, the first thing I'm going to think is, are there really that many gunshot victims in rural Oklahoma?

[167] Like, there's already a, you know, a little bit of a problem with that, right?

[168] You would want to check that right away.

[169] What actually happened is some wires got crossed.

[170] Like, the guy was talking about one thing, and somebody who saw the story assumed a correlation that wasn't there.

[171] and then it got retweeted by Rachel Maddow.

[172] She doubled down on it the next day.

[173] Exactly.

[174] Which is wild.

[175] The fact that the facts were clearly available, and she doubled down on it.

[176] First of all, do you know how many people that have actually ever even gotten sick from Ivermectin?

[177] Ever?

[178] I don't know.

[179] Billions.

[180] What did Peter, Peter Attia, read it off to us?

[181] There's less than 100.

[182] Ever.

[183] I mean, it's been used for river blindness for how long, right?

[184] It's an incredibly safe medication.

[185] right.

[186] Yeah.

[187] Now, that's not to say that it necessarily works as a COVID treatment, right?

[188] But there's so much disinformation about this whole thing.

[189] is that we, companies now know that their audiences will forgive them for making mistakes, as long as the mistakes are in the right direction.

[190] Right.

[191] As long as it's ideologically correct.

[192] As long as it's ideologically correct.

[193] So there was a whole generation of reporters who were raised like me. Like our whole thing was the night before we published something, we couldn't sleep because we were afraid of that one thing that would be fucked up in the report that somebody would catch the next day.

[194] And that might end your career, right?

[195] Like, if you got something really, really badly wrong, it was potentially a career -ending thing, especially if you made some kind of ethical mistake in forgetting to check something.

[196] So that terror was common to all reporters until recently.

[197] Now, all of a sudden, when you make a really, really bad mistake, your audience is probably going to be fine with it.

[198] They don't punish you for it in the same way.

[199] And they basically brought in a whole generation of people.

[200] who have this ethos of, well, if I make, so what, if it's wrong, you know, which is why all these people no longer have faith in these companies.

[201] And they can't see it.

[202] It's amazing that they can't see it.

[203] But people are leaving these companies.

[204] They're no longer trusting them.

[205] And they don't see that correlation, which is incredible to me. It's very strange.

[206] But again, it fuels this thing that I think is very good, which is trustworthy, independent media.

[207] Like Crystal and Sagar when they were when they had their old show rising on the hill um they decided to leave and when they decided to leave we were all we had a group conversation on the phone and you know they were asking me advice and i was like i think you guys are going to be gigantic when you leave i think it's going to be bigger than ever you'll be completely free you won't have to worry about any editorial control and you don't need anybody i mean i'll help you everybody else will help you the show's already excellent but it's excellent entirely because of you too it has nothing to do with being attached to any other organization that's going to siphon money off of you.

[208] Yeah.

[209] And so look at them.

[210] They were number one almost instantly.

[211] Right.

[212] And they've maintained that position the entire time.

[213] And they're bigger than ever now.

[214] Right.

[215] Yeah.

[216] And they were raised.

[217] They had that hesitation because we're raised in media, in professional corporate media, to be terrified of leaving the fold.

[218] Now, I actually came up through alternative media, so I wasn't afraid of leaving it.

[219] I had my own newspapers when I lived overseas.

[220] the idea of being out in the wilderness didn't frighten me so much.

[221] So when I moved to Substack, I just thought this is probably going to be cool.

[222] It's probably going to work, right?

[223] But a lot of people who came up, who came up, you know, you do think, wow, I'm never going to get back in to the club.

[224] And if I don't make enough money, that's it.

[225] That's it for me, which is why they're staying.

[226] But look at how much success they've had.

[227] The audience out there is huge.

[228] They're probably making more money than they ever dreamed.

[229] that they would make.

[230] And, you know, there's opportunities to do all kinds of amazing things now because of that.

[231] Yeah, there really is.

[232] And, you know, I was really fortunate that I had other jobs when I first started doing this podcast.

[233] And the podcast was never, the beginning of it at first was never for money.

[234] It was just for fun.

[235] I never thought of it as a job at all.

[236] And so when I had gotten it to the point where it started to become valuable, there were a bunch of vultures that tried to buy half of it or take over.

[237] over like one there was one like podcast network that literally wanted to take 50 % of the show just to be on the network and I was like what are you talking about like this is why would I do that they go well well you'll have more ad revenue because you'll be connected to our whatever our network I go what fucking network right the like this is a podcast man this is a different like they didn't even understand and this was quite a few years ago before I did gotten big but but the point is I know for friends that took that deal that gave their podcast over to this network and became a part of it.

[238] And now they're probably kicking themselves.

[239] Right.

[240] Because I'm sure it's like a permanent deal.

[241] Like I'm sure they own 50 % of it forever or whatever percentage they, you mean, maybe they started with 50 negotiated down.

[242] I don't know.

[243] But the point is there's so many people that when given the opportunity to have like some real security, like this is going to, you're going to be connected to this network.

[244] They're going to protect you.

[245] They're going to bring in the ads.

[246] You don't have to do anything and they just take a percentage of it, but you will always have income because you'll be connected to us and we are a big corporation.

[247] And you're like, oh, just like when I was on NBC, this is going to be great.

[248] Like it'll give me security and you start thinking about your mortgage and you start thinking about your kids college and all that stuff.

[249] And you go, okay, this is a good thing.

[250] And it's hard.

[251] It's hard to just say, no, no, I'm going to be independent.

[252] But this is the time.

[253] This is the best time ever to be independent.

[254] Yeah, no, and that's why it is a very hard decision for people to walk away and go independent and do what I did, what Glenn did, what Crystal and Kyle did.

[255] But it works, and the other choice, staying with traditional media, is increasingly not a good bargain for you.

[256] Not only is the piece of the pie there getting smaller and smaller all the time because their ratings are getting worse, the advertising revenues dropping off.

[257] But the ideological conformity in those organizations is getting worse, and that is something that never used to exist before, or at least not to this degree, anywhere near this degree.

[258] So you're going to be miserable doing that.

[259] You might as well do the job the way you want to do it, do it correctly, and get paid in a commensurate way for doing it.

[260] I think there's a bunch of people, though, that haven't established a large following that are worried, rightly so, of being lost in this.

[261] Sure.

[262] So I don't think this is available to anyway.

[263] It's obviously available to you and to Glenn and to Jimmy Dorr and a lot of these other people that have already gathered up a large, loyal audience because they know that they can trust these people or the people rather know they can trust them to be honest and to just give their take on things.

[264] But there's a lot of people that are, they're stuck because, you know, they're not really well -known and they're kind of in this system and they're realizing while they're in this system that it's it's pretty fucked and you have two choices either you try to fight against it and you might get ostracized and or you try to conform and then you get lost and then you become what you what you despise right which is more common than not right yeah I think that's what's happening either they're moving you the people out which you know you see at an organization like the New York Times where they're just kind of moving the old guard out The old traditional reporting types.

[265] And they had a lot of really amazing reporters at the New York Times, people who really knew how to do the job.

[266] And they're just kind of being pushed out, for one reason or another.

[267] Or, you know, the other thing is you stay in and gradually the mindset takes hold of you and you get lost mentally.

[268] And I think that's what's happening to a lot of people.

[269] I mean, I knew Rachel back in her Air America days.

[270] you know we were friends once sort of and uh it's just it's amazing to me what's what's happened uh i read your book um with her and uh who else on the cover hanadies on the cover is that hating hating that's right i didn't want to fuck it up so i don't want to ask but um when you compared her and you said rachel maddow is is bill o're like jesus christ and that but you're like but wait I think he's right like it's just ideologically opposite but the same kind of thing where this just like blind allegiance to the party doctrine right yeah and not a reporter anymore no and and what o'reilly did during the iraq war era you know he was he was using this sort of hyper patriotic persona his whole thing was um you know sort of bullying people who you know, weren't behind the war effort enough or who, you know, and if they, if he didn't like them, he would have sort of accuse them of being, you know, in sympathy with the terrorists.

[271] And, you know, Rachel's basically doing that same gig with, but it's Russians this time around, you know.

[272] It's, it's the same act.

[273] It's just a different audience.

[274] And they're using exactly the same.

[275] It's, it's this audience optimization method of making money where you identify the audience.

[276] then you give them a whole bunch of information that you know is going to, you know, sort of please their sensibilities and tickle their prejudices.

[277] And you just keep feeding that stuff to them over and over and over again.

[278] And yeah, she's playing that game.

[279] It works to a degree.

[280] She's so rich.

[281] Right, yeah.

[282] She's falling out of control.

[283] Yeah.

[284] She's bawling out of control.

[285] And now she only works like way less hours or something?

[286] Right.

[287] Yeah, I don't know exactly what the new deal is.

[288] but um but it's like way less broadcast time right yeah for more money yeah and i mean that's a tough job i mean you would know right i mean like four hours however many um you know days a week doing doing live work like that is right there it's not hard no not this this is not hard this is the biggest scam that's ever existed this job the fact that people think this is hard now i've had hard jobs this is not one of them no i mean it requires you to pay attention right What the fuck?

[289] I like to pay attention anyway.

[290] Right, right.

[291] It's not hard.

[292] It's not hard.

[293] Well, yeah.

[294] There's hard jobs out there.

[295] It would be a fucking travesty to call this a hard job.

[296] Compared to a real job.

[297] I keep forgetting that, yeah, which is something that one should never do.

[298] Yeah, we're removed from real jobs by too many years.

[299] No, I've had real jobs.

[300] In fact, believe it or not, you played the World War Theater, right?

[301] Yes.

[302] So I worked demolition once.

[303] And I demolished, my crew demolished that basement.

[304] No shit.

[305] Yeah.

[306] So we did the job that helped turn that into the Wilbur Theater.

[307] Wow.

[308] That's that seller a million years ago.

[309] That's pretty cool.

[310] I was being punished for getting, I got in a scrape like a drugs thing.

[311] And so my parents decided that I needed to learn a little bit about real work.

[312] So I ended up doing demolition for a long time in Boston.

[313] Dude, I had a construction job when I was.

[314] Well, I haven't many of them, because my father was an architect growing up.

[315] But when I was 19 years old, my buddy Jimmy, Jimmy Lawless, shout out to Jimmy, he got me a gig working with him.

[316] I think I only lasted like a month.

[317] We were building a Knights of Columbus Hall in somewhere in Massachusetts.

[318] And it was during the summer, so it was hot as fuck, muggy.

[319] And I was carrying cement and pressure -treated lumber all day.

[320] That's all I did.

[321] And I remember I would, and this was back when I was still.

[322] competing so I would go to the gym after work and I could not do anything.

[323] I could barely hit the bag.

[324] I was so tired.

[325] Right.

[326] And I remember thinking to myself like this is a very important moment for me because I could just be doing this forever.

[327] And you want to be doing anything but that.

[328] Anything but that.

[329] I was 19 and it was a real wake -up call.

[330] I was like, okay.

[331] Yeah.

[332] We got to figure this out because there's no way this is going to work.

[333] I can't do this.

[334] Yeah, absolutely.

[335] I mean, in that first job that I did, you know, the big stairs there at the Wilber Theater, you go down.

[336] So we had to basically jackhammer a whole bunch of concrete out of that floor and then figure out a way to get it up into a dumpster.

[337] So it was big, big chunks of concrete and stone.

[338] And we tried all these different ways, like driving a bobcat up the stairs, like all these different things.

[339] There was no way to automate it.

[340] The only way to do was to put it in a rubber bucket and have two guys carry each one up, up and down the stairs.

[341] So the guy I was with had just gotten out of jail, and he was like, this is what the people who built the pyramids must have felt like, you know, carrying that stuff up the stairs.

[342] So, yeah.

[343] Yeah, if that's how they did it.

[344] I used to work in that basement.

[345] There was a comedy club in that basement called Duck Soup.

[346] The guys who owned the Comedy Connection, Bill Blumenwright, who eventually took over the Wilbur he bought it after these guys had kind of failed this one they decided to try this project of a really high -end comedy club that only did clean comedy for like respectable people and they like they served really nice food and it did not work out huh it's like because right across the street was next comedy stop right which was like wild and they were they were literally offering you you can get paid in cash or cocaine like it was that's real like that was really that sounds like we're all the actual comics would want to play right so we would work across the street but you had to like you had to do surgery on your act you had to like remove parts your act to be able to work there what did they put in the sign like comedy but less funny is that no you know the idea was like the you know duck soup the the great groucho marks marks brothers movies um that movie was you know they thought it was like one of the great classic movies and they thought it would be fun to like have this classy comedy club and so they had all these other options you know there were stitches and the common connection, all these other clubs.

[347] They're like, let's have one club that's, like, very high -end and beautiful, and it didn't work.

[348] And so then it became an improv after that.

[349] The improv took it over after that, and then eventually it just went under.

[350] And then Bill, who's a, he's a real businessman.

[351] He turned it into the Wilb.

[352] They did Faniel Hall for a while, and I think that's when Bill bought them.

[353] And then he converted the Wilbur is now.

[354] the big like when comics come to town they work at it's like the big big venue now yeah I did my last Netflix special there right right exactly exactly it's a great place yeah absolutely yeah but those really hard jobs are very important for people that way you can never say a podcast is hard work absolutely it's not even close but the the thing that's going on now that's really interesting is watching all these pieces shuffle and move around like the substack thing in the podcast thing and watching the reaction that traditional media has to it.

[355] That's been unbelievable.

[356] Go ahead.

[357] Why?

[358] It's because it used to be they ignored it.

[359] And then they recently just started attacking it.

[360] And it's fascinating to watch because their ship keeps sinking.

[361] And as their ship is sinking, they're like, you fucking, you guys suck.

[362] You know, like this is terrible.

[363] What you're doing over there is terrible.

[364] And they're going under while they're doing it.

[365] It's amazing.

[366] I first started hearing about this last year, I knew somebody who worked at the Times, and he was basically saying, you know, the op -ed page is really worried about substack.

[367] I'm like, why would you be worried?

[368] Like, you're the New York Times.

[369] You've got seven million subscribers.

[370] Who cares?

[371] But they're really worried about it.

[372] And they did, you know, the series of hit pieces have come out over and over and over again.

[373] It's one line of attack after another.

[374] It's misogynistic.

[375] It's anti -trans.

[376] It's this or that.

[377] And it's just a mechanism.

[378] It's a cash register.

[379] It's not anything.

[380] It's not really a company, you know.

[381] But it speaks to the desperation within the news business that they are convinced that if they are losing audience, it must be because somebody is stealing it from them.

[382] Whereas what happened, in fact, is that they lost their audience first because, and this goes all the way back to the WMD episode.

[383] and then after that, I think Russiagate was a big one that turned off a lot of people.

[384] And, you know, they've been steadily losing audience just because of factual issues.

[385] And people are, they were already out there.

[386] That audience was already out there, as you know.

[387] But they, you know, they're trying to blame it on somebody.

[388] Whether it's factual or not, I think people are very tired of being lectured to in this sort of like very clear ideological bent.

[389] The angle that they're taking in these papers when they're discussing a real news story, when the actual facts are available to people, as they start seeing the facts and then seeing the big picture, and then they go back to that original article they read.

[390] They get angry.

[391] They get annoyed.

[392] Like, you guys are bullshitting me. Like, this is a bullshit version of what happened, and it's so clear that you keep doing it in the same direction.

[393] So now, every time you read the New York Times or the Washington Post or whatever paper it is, You have to go, okay, how much of this is legit?

[394] Well, who's writing it?

[395] You have to think, like, which guy is writing it, and how accurate is his reporting?

[396] How full of shit is he?

[397] How, you know, is she a hardcore lefty, or is she, like, a centrist?

[398] Like, what do we, what am I getting here?

[399] Right.

[400] It used to be, I could just read the New York Times, and this is a story.

[401] Hey, Jamie, I made a little...

[402] Chuck me something over there.

[403] This stuff, I'm subconsciously trying to pour it out because I know I'll drink the whole goddamn thing.

[404] This is this black rifle coffee sugary It's too good It's really good It's too good Yeah this is gonna become a new problem It's got 300 fucking Milligrams or grams Yeah milligrams of caffeine That's a lot It's awesome Yeah so I spilled it It's strange but I think This is just what happens When something new comes around It's always what happens There's always like this attack against it The denial that there's anything wrong with the original product.

[405] I saw it in martial arts.

[406] I mean, I was a part of martial arts when, you know, I was a child.

[407] And then when the UFC came along, there was all of this rejection of the idea behind it is barbaric.

[408] It was, you know, you only need this and you don't need to learn all this other stuff.

[409] And then eventually, everybody gave up.

[410] Right.

[411] Now it's clearly established that is 100 % the best form of martial art for an actual physical confrontation is a combination of all the things.

[412] It's with everything.

[413] When something new comes along that's superior, there's a rejection of it, there's an attack against it, and then eventually the dust settles and people realize like, oh, this is what's going on.

[414] Yeah.

[415] No, there's a total blindness within the medium business to, they just can't see how audiences perceive them.

[416] You know, once upon a time, I think the, the, idea within the news business was pretty simple.

[417] Like, reporters were raised.

[418] Basically, we'll get all the facts.

[419] We'll work really hard in getting it right.

[420] We'll give it to you, and then you do what you want with it.

[421] It's not our job to tell you what decisions to make.

[422] It's just our job to get it correct, right?

[423] And then that's the news.

[424] After that, you know, it's up to you to make your own political decisions.

[425] But that's why political affiliation didn't necessarily mean so much back in the day.

[426] It was always true that basically all reporters were Democrats, but it didn't show so much in the news media once upon a time because we had a professional ethos that just said, we're not supposed to care, right?

[427] We go into cover whatever.

[428] We're just going to collect all the facts, get all the quotes, put it out there, make sure everything's been checked, and then it's your deal.

[429] Now there's this new ethos that what Wesley Lowry, the reporter, calls the view from nowhere.

[430] journalism, which is what I just described, that that's not good enough, that they have to compensate for inequities in the system by basically trying to impact how people behave through coverage.

[431] And this is what they do all the time.

[432] They're trying to get you to make political decisions by how they cover things.

[433] And I saw this early on as a campaign reporter, once when I was much younger, you know, in 2004 and 2008, I would sit in the bus with the reporters and they would be discussing which candidates they were going to describe as fringe, which ones they were going to, we're going to be described as electable, which ones would be serious, right?

[434] Because they enjoyed having the power of deciding for people, you know, who got to be taken seriously and who didn't.

[435] And I think that that, that, that, urge to mold how people act is just ingrained in the business, and it's so off -putting.

[436] You know, I think, but people, especially with something like the pandemic, people are desperate.

[437] They really, really need just to get the basic information.

[438] And instead, you know, when the pandemic happened, we were in the middle of this super intense culture war that was revolved around Trump.

[439] So everything was viewed through that lens, you know, like hydroxychloroquine.

[440] And Trump liked it, or Trump said he was taking it, therefore it must be bad, therefore, you know, it must not work.

[441] But that's not how it worked.

[442] It's not the drug's fault that Donald Trump took it, you know.

[443] Did you see that Fauci had actually written a paper on the effectiveness of chloroquine and on coronaviruses?

[444] What did he say?

[445] It was from 2000, I want to say 2015 or 2016, but there was, he gave a statement about the effectiveness of chloroquine and coronaviruses.

[446] See if you can find that.

[447] Because it's really fascinating.

[448] But yeah, it's one of those things that when it came up, when, I mean, Trump fucked so much up just by being Trump.

[449] Exactly.

[450] He broke people's, that Trump derangement syndrome, I used to think that was a funny thing that, you know, not even that funny, but a thing that Republicans would say to try to invalidate anything that liberals would say.

[451] Like, oh, they've got Trump derangement syndrome.

[452] But as time has gone on, and you've seen it over and over again, and the justification for not just bias, but blatant distortions of the facts in order to.

[453] to impart a narrative, like clearly doing it on purpose.

[454] And they'll, they've done it with almost as righteousness because they're combating something, this evil, this evil Trumpster and this evil Trump thing that's happening.

[455] Right.

[456] And that, again, that's new.

[457] Yeah.

[458] That's a new thing.

[459] So, so another example of that is what you were talking about before, the lab leak story.

[460] Yeah.

[461] Trump believed it.

[462] Therefore, it must not be true.

[463] Right.

[464] Whereas I think the old -school reporters would look at it, we wouldn't give a shit, right?

[465] Like, it's, whether it came from a lab or whether it came from a cave somewhere, we don't care.

[466] Like, we're not supposed to care.

[467] Our job is just to find out, you know?

[468] And so they would dig.

[469] And there was not a satisfactory explanation, you know, throughout all of last year.

[470] We didn't know exactly where it came from.

[471] So why did we stop looking?

[472] Right.

[473] We stopped looking because it had been decided just sort of collectively that, well, here's the story we're going to have.

[474] We're going to stick to it.

[475] Anybody who has any other point of view on it is clearly a Trump lover or whatever.

[476] And we have to denounce that person.

[477] We have to call them a conspiracy theorist.

[478] We're going to have this fact -checking that, you know, piously declares that this is wrong, you know.

[479] And, of course, it turns out then they backtrack and they think that there's not going to be repercussions for that.

[480] Well, you know, that's why people are fleeing traditional media.

[481] They were forced into it, though.

[482] They were forced to backtrack.

[483] Yeah, they had to because, well, actually, I mean, that's still a little bit of a mystery as to why they suddenly decided to back off.

[484] Well, Josh Rogan was responsible for quite a bit of it.

[485] And he's done amazing stuff.

[486] I mean, his work in exposing the whole disinformation campaign and the emails and the fact that Fauci was the one that restarted the gain of function research and funding gain of function research.

[487] All that stuff, I mean, and he's a Washington Post guy.

[488] He's, I mean, he's rock solid.

[489] Right.

[490] And then I think there was a bunch of people that kind of, when he started reporting all this stuff and saying all these things, a bunch of people that were like, fuck, he went out there.

[491] Right.

[492] You know, he went out the door, and he's like, guys, I can breathe.

[493] And everyone was like, fuck, should we go outside?

[494] You know what I mean?

[495] Yeah.

[496] You know what I mean?

[497] Like if there was here, is this the Fauci thing?

[498] Sort of.

[499] 2005 studies found that chloroquine, not hydroxychloroquine, was effective in inhibiting the infection spread of SARS cove.

[500] The official name for SARS, the research was conducted in cell culture conditions.

[501] So in vitro, meaning the drug was not administered to actual SARS patients.

[502] That's the same thing that they've found with Ivermectin, that it stops viral replication in vitro.

[503] Yeah, that's the, if you look at the announcement for the Oxford study on Ivermectin, they use very similar language to say that this is a drug that has had in vitro success, it has some antiviral properties.

[504] Yeah.

[505] You know, there isn't a long record of it, but it has some, right?

[506] And that contradicted this, again, it was much more of a faith -based thing in the reporting.

[507] Exactly.

[508] It's, we believe that this is not true.

[509] So therefore, we're just not going to touch it.

[510] Well, the horse dewormer narrative is where it got really weird because it was clearly the same language over and over again.

[511] Which, by the way, that stuff is in heart dewormer for dogs.

[512] I have heart dewormer for my dog.

[513] I didn't I don't even know who bought it But it was in my house And the other day I was like Look at this What's in this And I pick it up and it's fucking Ivermectin Really?

[514] Yeah And it was you know Like heart Like That company I think it's called heart That makes it Right Isn't that what it's called H -A -R -T or something like that?

[515] Yeah is that what is But whatever it is It was four dogs There's a picture of a dog on it I didn't even know we had it In my house And I open up the package And I look at it I'm like Motherfucker But what But they didn't say, that's it, heart guard, that's it.

[516] That shit.

[517] That shit's Ivermectin.

[518] There it is.

[519] So when they started saying horse dewormer, like that was the thing that kept getting said over and over and over again, horse demer.

[520] Horse, horse, horse, horse.

[521] Right.

[522] Like, why, like, what happened there?

[523] Like, how did that narrative get out there when you're talking about a drug that's been administered to?

[524] I think it's more than four billion times.

[525] four billion prescriptions have been filled for that stuff there's only like I want to say there's like two billion dog or two billion horses on earth like how many how many billion horses are there I bet there's not even there's probably not even two billion horses so there's like no what why would you confuse that a drug has been given to so many people why would you confused that as being primarily a horse drug?

[526] Fifty -eight million.

[527] There's only 58 million horses.

[528] So we far out number of horses.

[529] This is something I never knew.

[530] Yeah, I was pretty sure of that.

[531] Yeah.

[532] But the fact that you're talking about a drug that couldn't have been given to all the horses, even if they gave it to every fucking horse.

[533] Right.

[534] Yeah.

[535] Now, this was amazing when they did that.

[536] I mean, I had arguments with other people in the business about this because I wrote a couple of stories about Ivermectin, mainly because some of the internet platforms were shutting down people who were talking about it, right?

[537] So companies like Facebook and YouTube, right?

[538] Yeah, sorry, it was YouTube, had eliminated, among other things like congressional testimony about this.

[539] And that seemed to me just crazy.

[540] Yeah.

[541] You know, even if the person is wrong, you have to leave it up there.

[542] It was a public service.

[543] It's, you know, you should be able to find it.

[544] but but reporters were absolutely convinced that this drug was evil because I guess because it wasn't the vaccine and just the whole concept that people would be looking for some other kind of treatment or might or might welcome it was just deeply and profoundly offensive to them so they came up with this pejorative term the horse you know this horse dewormer thing and it was amazing the unanimity like as you said it was in every single story like the language was exactly the same yeah it was really strange right and what and even that is odd because of what again once upon a time your classic journalist was somebody like seymour hirsch and the whole idea of being a journalist was to not think like other people like you you were your own person you thought for yourself you you made your own decisions about things and that was valuable The whole point of a job was to be like that.

[545] Yeah.

[546] Because it required somebody who had the ability to look at every situation completely objectively and not be affected by pure pressure.

[547] Like that was a prerequisite for being able to do this job well.

[548] The idea that we're all going to parrot each other's thinking about things is totally alien to what this job is supposed to be about.

[549] And now all of a sudden it's become the opposite.

[550] It's become if you even try to opt out of doing that, you're suspect.

[551] You're going to be drummed out of the business, which is just nuts.

[552] It's very strange.

[553] Another thing that's one of my favorite things to watch is the compilation of all of the people on the left talking about how they would never take the vaccine because you never know what's in it.

[554] if Trump's hands are on it.

[555] Oh, God.

[556] That it's going to, you know, who knows what the long -term consequences of it are going to be.

[557] Right.

[558] And this is Biden, fucking Biden when he was running for president.

[559] Are you going to take the shot?

[560] Who knows what it's going to do to you?

[561] There's no long -term test.

[562] Kamala saying she wouldn't take the shot.

[563] So many fucking people.

[564] And those same people are the ones that just take the shot, man. I know.

[565] Like the same people, the very same people.

[566] The same people made it.

[567] The same people, you know, they produced it.

[568] They sold.

[569] This is the same people.

[570] Yeah.

[571] And they came up with this whole phrase, a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

[572] Yeah.

[573] Exactly the same people who were having vaccine hesitancy the year previously came up with this phrase.

[574] And here's the parts that's shameful.

[575] It's one thing for a politician to use a phrase like that that's clearly cooked up, you know, with their consultants in whatever, you know, evil political laboratory.

[576] They sit around and decide how they're going to, you know, do their messaging campaigns.

[577] But then for, for, you know, an anchor person to get up and repeat it like it's his or her own thinking, that's just embarrassing, you know, like since when do we, since, you know, let politicians write our material for us.

[578] I mean, it's, it's just, it's shameful.

[579] It is, but I think it's just the last death twitches of that business.

[580] I just think this is a sign of the times and that if you think about it, a decentralized source of news is really the only way we're going to trust it today, something that is completely independent of a large corporation where they have a lot of vested interests, a lot of vested interests in pushing a certain narrative.

[581] Those things, they're never going to be pure, not anymore.

[582] I mean, whatever the fuck they did, when they allowed pharmaceutical drug companies to advertise on television, and we're one of only two countries on planet Earth that allows that, they allowed the deepest roots of corruption and of influence to get in the way of all narratives, of everything we say and do, and the fucking sheer amount of money that's being generated by that.

[583] is almost unstoppable.

[584] You could never cut all those roots.

[585] There's no way.

[586] It's at this point.

[587] Yeah, it's it's and that amount of money is nothing to them.

[588] Nothing.

[589] Look at the amount of the profits the companies like, you know, Materna and Pfizer are making right now.

[590] And, you know, the, for to buy the assent of basically all the networks, all you have to do is, you know, send a tiny percentage of your quarterly profits to a handful of news.

[591] networks and to them it's like manna from heaven i mean again the news business is so star for revenue um that they'll you know they'll bend to anybody basically did you see that i mean i know jimmy dora covered it but quite quite a few other people have realized it now the amount of money the that bill gates has spent on influencing media no i i i didn't it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 million dollars he's donated to these very various media organizations, which for sure has some sort of an impact on how they cover him.

[592] Right.

[593] Well, of course.

[594] And look, the once upon a time, we were, I have said it many times, we were trained to know that, for instance, think tanks, right?

[595] Like who was funding them because think tanks are who get quoted in the New York Times in the Washington Post, right?

[596] So they're generating research that goes to journalists.

[597] And like sort of surreptitiously, that ends up becoming what's covered.

[598] And so that's how like the Gates Foundation, for instance, will work its way into coverage.

[599] You know, it'll sponsor research in an area like education.

[600] That's one of the things I'm covering now.

[601] And its research becomes, you know, it gets into the news that way.

[602] But we were supposed to once have, you know, our ears up and be conscious of who was paying for all this research.

[603] Where was that information coming from?

[604] And, you know, people don't really even think about it now.

[605] See if you can find that story, Jamie.

[606] I'm looking right now.

[607] I'm reading an article about someone last year, actually, was looking into it.

[608] Here, I'll show you.

[609] Journalism's Gateskeepers is what it's called.

[610] Columbia Journalism.

[611] Is that a respected publication?

[612] Yeah.

[613] No, I mean, look, they've had their issues, but that's the top media criticism outlet, right?

[614] Okay, so this is last year.

[615] It says a recently examined nearly 20 ,000 charitable grants, the Gates Foundation made through the end of June, and found that more than 250 million going towards journalism.

[616] Receipts included news operations like the BBC, NBC, Al Jazeera, ProPublica, National Journal, The Guardian, Univision Medium, the Financial Times, the Atlantic, the Texas Tribune, Gannett, Washington Monthly, Lamonde, is that I say it?

[617] Yeah, LeMond.

[618] And the Center for Investigative Reporting, Charitable organizations affiliated with news outlets like BBC Media Action, the New York Times, neediest cases fund, media companies such as the participant whose documentary waiting for Superman, supports Gates' agenda on charter schools, journalistic organizations such as the Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting, the National Press Foundation, and the International Center for Journalists, and a variety of other groups creating news content or working on journalism, such as the Leo Burnett Company and ad agency that Gates commissioned to create a news site to promote the success of aid groups.

[619] In some cases, recipients say they distributed part of the funding as subgrants to other journalistic organizations, which makes it difficult to see the full picture of Gates funding into the fourth estate.

[620] Yeah, and as a reporter, you may or may not be aware of all the different ways that money will get and work its way into the business.

[621] But unconsciously, it just sort of seeps in.

[622] Right.

[623] And that's how it works.

[624] Nobody comes and tells you, well, don't cover this.

[625] Well, maybe they do now, actually.

[626] or you know take this approach to covering education you what ends up happening is that you just kind of get a feel based on the reaction of your editor to whatever pitch you're giving at the moment hey would you know would you be interested in the story about whether or not you know this approach to standardized testing worked right and if the editor says yeah that's interesting maybe right then you know, just never to broach that again, right?

[627] But if it's with, you know, in the right ideological slant, they're going to be hot for it, right?

[628] Interesting.

[629] Yeah, and that's how it works.

[630] That's how it works with everything.

[631] It works, you know, with foreign policy.

[632] I mean, when I worked in Russia, if you sent the story, if you pitched a story to an American editor about how the U .S.-based, the U .S. funded, reform effort was working and there was a growing middle class in provincial Russia that was prospering and people were now taking vacations to Ibiza and stuff like that.

[633] You could get anybody to buy that story.

[634] But if you came to them with a story about how actually, you know, the transformation to capitalism has been really slow.

[635] People have lost their health care.

[636] There's an explosion of violent crime and an addiction and people are more and more gravitating towards.

[637] towards right -wing politics, you know, in large part because of the rapid changes that they weren't ready for.

[638] You could not get that story sold, right?

[639] So what ended up happening when I was in Russia is they kept sending back all these positive reports about what was happening.

[640] This was before Putin.

[641] And Americans got this idea that things in Russia were going great, you know, and the company was really prospering.

[642] In fact, you know, I was doing stories when I was there about how money didn't even exist in the villages.

[643] Like, the only people who would actually have cash in most remote Russian villages would be pensioners because they would get it, you know, once a month from the mail system.

[644] I went to places where the people actually bought and sold things with moonshine, like the Russian equivalent of moonshine, because that was like a unit of currency.

[645] Wow.

[646] They were doing subsistence farming.

[647] I mean, it was completely fucked life in rural Russia.

[648] But if you picked up the New York Times, what you read is, you know, the emerging middle class was doing great.

[649] You know, people have VCRs in Samar and stuff like that.

[650] And that's how it works.

[651] Like you get a sense of what they want.

[652] You give it to them.

[653] And, you know, over time, you just stop thinking about it.

[654] But it's not a healthy way to do it.

[655] The idea that there's no currency at all and they're just subsistence farming, in trading and trading in moonshine.

[656] That's wild.

[657] Yeah, I actually did it myself.

[658] I did a story about this.

[659] I used to travel the country with this guy who was a blue -in -round -a -professional clown.

[660] So we would do these things where we would get jobs in provincial Russia doing different things, you know, whether it was bricklaying or, you know, working in, you know, agriculture, that kind of stuff.

[661] And in one place we went to, you know, we would do like a construction job and we get paid in what they call Samagong, which is like moonshine.

[662] Was it nasty?

[663] It works.

[664] Megan Murphy gave me some shit from Mexico that it's how rough?

[665] I can still, like nightmares.

[666] It's so rough.

[667] She drinks it all the time.

[668] I know what's wrong with her.

[669] But we open up the bottle.

[670] I was like, Jesus.

[671] Yeah.

[672] It's like getting hit with an oar when you drink this stuff.

[673] Yeah.

[674] Have you ever seen Werner Herzog?

[675] documentary Happy People?

[676] No, although I love Hurtzog.

[677] What was it about?

[678] It's about people living in rural Russia.

[679] Oh, really?

[680] Life in the Taiga.

[681] Wow.

[682] It's one of my favorite documentaries.

[683] It's really fascinating because these people live just hunter, gather, fishermen, trapper existences.

[684] And they believe they sell pelts and they'll use that for snowmobiles and tools and things like that.

[685] that, but essentially all of their food, all of their subsistence comes, this is it, comes entirely from hunting and trapping, and they have no mental health problems, they're all unreasonably happy, they're really, like when you, you know, you're getting translations of them, you know, it's all in subtitles, but they're talking about how happy they are, and they talk about all the things they love about this particular way of living and, you know, and this is what a man needs to do, and this is what a trapper does, and this is what a hunter does, and this is what, and they're talking about it with this, this pride and this, I don't know, man, this, like, really unusual resolve.

[686] Like, they found their niche.

[687] They don't have this desire to escape.

[688] Like, they enjoy life.

[689] Right.

[690] And so he called it happy people.

[691] And, you know, he's doing the narration, which makes it interesting, too.

[692] No, his narrations are always great A year in the tie, that's what it's called It's fucking great It's really good That sounds awesome I mean it makes sense that You know Whatever it is we're doing That if you can avoid Have interaction with that That would be Sounds like it would be a great life Do you feel an obligation Because there's not that many of you I mean I'm not trying to blow smoke up your ass But I will There's not that many of you there's not that many people that I can say like I could send an article that you wrote and I go this is legit you know I'll send it to my friends like read this is crazy thank you there's not a lot of you out there though like if the government wanted to change the news they just have to whack you and Glenn Greenwald that a couple other people and it would be a lot different out there that's real yeah as odd as that sounds there's there's not that many yeah it's it's a weird feeling I I'm not, you know, obviously I've been doing this for a long time, but this current situation where the news is kind of split into three parts, right?

[693] There's right -wing media, there's, you know, hashtag resistance media, and then there's this independent thing where, you know, it's people like you and me and Glenn and Crystal and Kyle and stuff like that.

[694] It is small and an emergent, and it's a lot of attention.

[695] I think there's a lot of pressure on us to figure things.

[696] out because we haven't figured things out.

[697] Like, substack is really great for getting a couple of us paid a good deal of money, but we haven't figured out how to do like in -depth investigative reporting.

[698] We haven't figured how to pay for that.

[699] Right.

[700] Foreign reporting.

[701] How would you pay for that without crowdfunding it?

[702] And if you crowdfunded it, wouldn't everybody know what you were doing?

[703] Yeah.

[704] That would be a problem, right?

[705] It would be difficult.

[706] I think the problem is that this model works because people really, really like the content, so they want a lot of it.

[707] But the job I used to do, I would take eight, ten weeks to write a single story.

[708] Let me ask you this.

[709] Say if you have a story that you would normally get funded for by a large organization.

[710] How much money are we talking about?

[711] Say if you have a really important story.

[712] How much money are we talking about?

[713] How much would it cost?

[714] Say if you want to do a deep dive into the steel dossier.

[715] So it would depend on what it was.

[716] If it was like a book -length thing, you know, I think you know how much book deals usually cost, right?

[717] But there's profit on the end of that, right?

[718] There's millions.

[719] There can be.

[720] If you're lucky.

[721] If you're lucky.

[722] I mean, I think mostly, you know, the investigative reporters, you know, they'd be mostly happy with any kind of six -figure advance to do something like that.

[723] In the magazine business, if you were going to do a big whack at something like that, you know, 6 ,000 words, 10 ,000 words, you'd once plenty of time you would get you know 15 ,000 20 ,000 dollars to do that because you you know you needed to take a while to do that work.

[724] See I feel like if there's like real stories out there there could be a fund that's dedicated to real stories and in place of an editor but who would have control over the narrative you could have a committee of people like yourself and Kyle and crystal and saga and where you would have like a signal group chat where you talk about an issue like hey there's a thing we want to do on this you know it's probably going to cost $20 ,000 to get all the pieces moving you know can we can we do something like that and then I think easily you could have a go fund me or you know whatever and Patreon something along those lines where people just donate to this fund that goes towards journalism and then at the end of the year there could be an accounting of it so that everybody knows it's all legit and no one's siphoning money off of it I don't think that's that hard I think it would work it would definitely work financially you know ProPublica sort of is based on that model the the the there's only a couple of problems the one is that there aren't that many people who know how to do the job that well left like that's terrifying yeah Yeah, no, it is.

[725] It's pretty scary.

[726] I mean, I think you could have found a fair number of reporters who knew how to do hardcore investigative journalism, you know, 10 years ago or 15 years ago.

[727] But the current generation has been raised on a different model that's based on being quick, you know, getting a couple of quotes, putting something up fast and it's brief.

[728] and it's more of a take than it is a dig.

[729] And so that mentality is of just investigative work is disappearing.

[730] So you'd have the problem of finding people who can do it.

[731] The other problem is audiences don't necessarily love what we call like, eat your vegetables journalism, right?

[732] There's some of it out there.

[733] There's plenty of it.

[734] There are people who do good work, but they have difficulty getting people to follow But because people do love the shit that's out there, right?

[735] Yeah.

[736] They eat up the culture war stuff.

[737] Yeah.

[738] So those are two problems.

[739] I think I've always approached it that part of the job is a sales job.

[740] Look, you have to get people interested in stuff that's important.

[741] You have to find a way to do it, whether you're using humor, whether you're using illustrations.

[742] It doesn't matter whether you use fiction writing narrative techniques to get people hooked on something, you know, that's part of the job, I think.

[743] And you have to do the investigative stuff.

[744] So it's a tough thing.

[745] It takes a while to develop all those skills, and they're not teaching kids in journalism to do that as much anymore.

[746] Do you think that with the rise of independent journalists, do you think that it's possible that that might open up and people might look at that as a viable career path?

[747] And they might say, hey, this is actually, it's actually coming back?

[748] I would hope so.

[749] I mean, if the money's there, it's the greatest job in the world.

[750] I mean, like, you know, this job has taken me all over the planet.

[751] I've gotten to meet every conceivable kind of person on Earth, everyone from presidential candidates to professional athletes to people in prison to, you know, everywhere.

[752] And you can go anywhere doing journalism.

[753] And you get to play detective sometimes, right?

[754] which it's a really cool thing.

[755] You got to do the work of, you know, coming to a situation and figuring out who did what, and that's mentally and intellectually stimulating.

[756] It's a great, great job.

[757] But people have been, I think they've been turned off to it because this new version of the job is much more like professional flattery, it's much more political.

[758] They're training kids to be like, courtiers, basically.

[759] And the people who come out of journalism schools now, they want to be close to power.

[760] That's the attraction for them, is the idea of being the person who gets to sit next to a Hillary Clinton aide at a bar, you know, at the end of a day.

[761] And, you know, oh, I know this person or I hang out at a party with this person.

[762] Like that instead of, you know, I think it's unfortunate because it's a cool job.

[763] It is a, it's not just a cool job.

[764] It's a cool job with romantic roots.

[765] Absolutely.

[766] Yeah, I mean, think about how many incredible stories have been broken and, you know, Woodward and Bernstein.

[767] How many, how people look at these people, you know?

[768] Yeah, think of the people who've been journalists, who've done such incredible things.

[769] You know, everybody from, like, Ida Tar Bell to Mark Twain to Hunter Thompson, Hunter Thompson, Evelyn Wall, like, you know, It's a great place for if you want to be a writer.

[770] I mean, that's how I got into it because I wanted to be a writer.

[771] But if you want to be a great investigator, you know, you can do that's a way into it too.

[772] You know, there's the whole tradition of what we call participatory journalism where you do something and then you write about it.

[773] You know, George Plumpton was famous, right, for, you know, playing professional football, right?

[774] The Paper Lion story.

[775] But, you know, I've done some of that, you know, like doing, you know, work in Russia or, you know, going undercover.

[776] I lived in a church in Texas for a while.

[777] Did you really?

[778] Yeah, yeah.

[779] Actually, the John Hagee church in San Antonio, I sort of joined that church and wrote about my experiences there.

[780] in there um so it was like an apocalyptic church as one of those churches that sort of believes the end of the world is coming did they have a date um they didn't have a date uh but they had they had all these crazy like we had a retreat um where they taught taught us to vomit our demons out into a paper bag uh so we had we all got together and like we had to uh to do that so i had to pretend to be this like confused spiritually confused person i feel kind of guilty about it in retrospect it was kind of um Not so sure about it.

[781] Well, isn't everybody a little spiritually confused?

[782] We all are.

[783] Yeah, I guess so.

[784] But it's, you know, it's a fun job.

[785] I mean, it's, uh, and I think it's really, really necessary too when done right.

[786] I was just reading some, they didn't have serpents.

[787] Did they, did they use serpents?

[788] They didn't, no, that's like the Pentecostal thing, I think.

[789] They're the ones who speak in tongues too, right?

[790] Well, we did do that.

[791] You really?

[792] Yes.

[793] Oh.

[794] Yeah, yeah.

[795] I wasn't so good at that.

[796] It all sounds the same.

[797] It all goes into this It all sounds like a fake language Like no one does it well No one does it where it sounds like Wow that sounds like Do you What is that Oh God There's a manuscript That they think is fake And it's been around forever The Protocols of the Elders of Zion No no no no no The Voinich What is it called?

[798] Hmm The Something in the voinishman.

[799] Is it a voynish, Spanish script?

[800] That's it.

[801] 39 codes or something?

[802] There's this ancient book, and they don't know how old it is.

[803] How old do they think it is?

[804] So they were thinking before it was like a long lost language.

[805] And as time's gone on, now they're kind of thinking it's not a language at all.

[806] It's like someone just made up a language.

[807] Yeah.

[808] Oh, they made it up?

[809] But it's really good.

[810] So it's confusing people.

[811] See if you can pull up some images of it.

[812] So this, it's got drawing.

[813] and this language that they thought, yeah, it's really interesting.

[814] It's old as fuck.

[815] But like, look at how all the letters are written.

[816] It's all beautiful.

[817] And no one knows what the fuck it says.

[818] They have no idea.

[819] And there's a lot of theories.

[820] But for the longest time, they were trying to decipher it.

[821] And I think I might be speaking out of tune here because they might have changed.

[822] But I think they decided somewhere along the line that it's not.

[823] really a language, that someone just made up a fake language.

[824] So I'm assuming that they had like linguists and code breakers, take a crack at it, and they just couldn't, right?

[825] It's early 15th century.

[826] So somewhere in the early 1400s, somebody, so clear that, was the manuscript decoded?

[827] I don't think it has been, right?

[828] 2019, the manuscript was propelled back of the headlines once again when an academic made the explosive claim that he had success succeeded where everyone had failed.

[829] and successfully decoded the mysterious text.

[830] I think that's horseshit, though.

[831] I don't think that's true.

[832] If somebody 500 years ago made this beautiful thing, but made it complete gibberish just to fuck with us in the future, that's kind of amazing.

[833] I really respect that.

[834] Yeah, if that's what they did.

[835] I don't know what they did.

[836] Yeah, that's funny.

[837] I think they think that somebody might have made it to sell to someone.

[838] like someone might have made it in the early 1400s to sell as like some ancient text it currently consists of around 240 pages there's evidence that additional pages are missing some pages are foldable sheets of varying size most of the pages have fantastical illustrations or diagrams some crudely colored with sections of the manuscript showing people fictitious plants astrological symbols etc the text is written from left to right the manuscript was named after Wilfred Voynich, a Polish book dealer who purchased it in 1912.

[839] Hmm.

[840] Yeah, I don't think that anyone has translated it.

[841] There was so much fuckery back then.

[842] Oh, yeah.

[843] There was, right?

[844] That's hilarious.

[845] That reminds me of the...

[846] Go ahead.

[847] I was going to say, like, the earliest books.

[848] Well, I was reading something about some of the earliest.

[849] Somebody brought it up, and then I read something.

[850] I think somebody brought it up on this podcast.

[851] I remember reading through this, and I thought we had come to an answer, but I'm I don't remember it and I'm not finding it.

[852] The answer whether or not is legit?

[853] Yeah, like even I thought they found out what some of the stuff was saying and it was just like nonsense or...

[854] Yeah, I don't know if that's true.

[855] I think it's really under debate.

[856] But the earliest books, the real successful ones, were about like how to spot witches.

[857] Like, everybody thinks like, oh, well, once they started printing books, that's what people started learning things.

[858] No. That's kind of like today.

[859] Right, yeah.

[860] There's a lot of witch hunting going on today.

[861] Like you think of like if, If you two was dominated by Q and on, Q &O theories, that was like ancient publishing.

[862] Yeah, amazing.

[863] First started writing book, because I never even thought of that.

[864] I forget who brought that up.

[865] Someone brought that up on the show that the earliest books were about witches.

[866] And I was like, what?

[867] And they go, yeah, that was the most successful books at the time.

[868] Once they started printing books, like how to spot witches.

[869] Right, right.

[870] You talked about it on the ninth episode.

[871] But who was it that the ninth episode ever?

[872] Yeah.

[873] Oh, Jesus.

[874] Wow.

[875] With whom?

[876] My memory's gone.

[877] My memory is like a hard drive that's like a one gigabyte hard drive, but I'm trying to stuff 18 gigs of information in there.

[878] It just spills over.

[879] And then someone will bring someone, I'll go, oh, yeah.

[880] Now I remember that.

[881] Okay, I found the folder.

[882] And then I'll, you know.

[883] Yeah, no, for me, I think I'm just actually, it's shrinking in size that hard drive.

[884] Yeah, well, it's definitely not working that good.

[885] But this Voynish manuscript, I forget what my point was.

[886] It's just...

[887] It reminds me of the...

[888] Remember the amazing story about the Zodiac Code?

[889] Yes.

[890] When they published it and like the NSA, the CIA and the FBI, like their cryptographers couldn't crack it, but then this couple and like Sausalito were just like sitting at their breakfast table and they were the ones who figured it out.

[891] Oh, is that true?

[892] Yeah, it is true.

[893] It's in the original...

[894] Zodiac books.

[895] The cartoon is Robert Gray -Smith.

[896] We were going somewhere with this when I got to the Voynish manuscript.

[897] What the hell were we talking about right before that?

[898] There was a point.

[899] Don't know.

[900] Media business, professional standards.

[901] Talking in tongues.

[902] Speaking in tongues.

[903] That's right.

[904] That's right.

[905] So we were just talking about gibberish.

[906] That fake languages.

[907] That fake languages all sound the same.

[908] They'll sound saba -la -la -la -lam.

[909] Nobody does it where it sounds.

[910] like wow that sounds like a good fake language no it's it's it's incredibly unconvincing except it was very hard for me to do i've found like uh that that was the hardest hardest part of the gig didn't jr r tolkien write a whole fake language to go along with the lord of the rings oh like hobbitish or something like that i think he did or elvish yeah yeah i think he did write something some elvish language i think he wrote a fake language to go along with his books So did Anthony Burgess, well, he just basically took Russian words and made them into slang for Clockwork Orange.

[911] Oh, really?

[912] Yeah.

[913] But, yeah, he had his own sort of slang language.

[914] That's a cool thing to do, you know.

[915] Did this church that you, were they, some of the people that did the pray the gayaway stuff?

[916] So there was a little bit of that.

[917] They didn't do conversion therapy exactly, but they definitely counseled people who were, who are in that situation let's put it that way I was I thought about doing one of those but then where I would actually join one of those retreats and see how they they went about trying to convert people but yeah that never worked out there was someone who was a famous politician and their husband was involved in one of those things I'm trying to remember who it was but her her no no no it was a female politician and the husband seemed he seemed gay and he was involved that's a weird thing to say but you know some people do seem gay I you know it's like you risk being criticized and being called a bigot for saying that but if someone's talking like this it's very rare that's a straight person right right yeah yeah for whatever reason this is not a it's just in no way a judgment against gay people this guy was doing pray the gay away stuff and someone did some investigative reporting and did something and it was like this guy like clearly has a heart on and he's like behind me hugging me and telling me that you know Jesus does not want him to be gay and that we're all gonna work through this and he's like the whole thing was like uber bizarre that's crazy.

[918] It's amazing that that that whole conversion therapy thing was was such a big deal like even 10, 15 years ago.

[919] Yeah.

[920] There have been, you know, a lot of changes since then.

[921] Well, changes in acceptance, hopefully, but also changes in an understanding of homosexuality, that it's, this is not a choice.

[922] It's like the idea that is a choice is nonsense.

[923] Right, right.

[924] Although they're now changing the thinking on that.

[925] Really?

[926] Well, I mean, that's not to wait into an area that's completely radioactive but you know they're too late it's the you know the the trans issue the the whole idea that you something like that is determined by biology runs a little bit counter to to current thinking oh okay so what trans is very different though right yeah the reason why trans is different because there are trans people right that start off as biological males and they identify with being a female but they've had children with females and they've had relationships with females and then as they transition they remain attracted to females right this is very common so i don't think it's quite the same as gay it's it's very different in that it's whatever it is in the human mind that makes you identify with another gender, it seems to have nothing to do with your sexual preference.

[927] Hmm.

[928] Okay.

[929] Yeah.

[930] I know absolutely nothing about it, so I know enough about it.

[931] Well, I knew almost nothing about it until I got like attacked for attacking a female MMA fighter who used to be male for 30 years and then wasn't telling anybody that she used to be male and transitioned and fought two different times against females that thought she was a biological female and beat the fuck out of them.

[932] Right.

[933] Like horrendous beatings, broke this lady's skull, like literally fractured her face.

[934] It was scary stuff.

[935] And when you watch the fights, the fights looked like a guy beating up a woman.

[936] It wasn't like someone who's particularly skillful.

[937] It was just wrong.

[938] Right.

[939] And it was at a very low level of MMA, like if you, if you saw like at high levels when someone has like the skills to protect themselves from someone who's the same size as them but physically superior then you would have less consequences because they just know how to protect themselves better but these these women weren't that skillful so the strength and the physical power was a huge factor right and I was fucking furious because it's like this is crazy and in criticizing it and being like very very vocal about it then i started having to like start doing research on this like what like why are people reacting this way like what is actually going on here wasn't that one of the reasons they would they wanted bernie to disavalue yes yes so yeah what's what's amazing about this is that um it's again it goes back to that same kind of instinct you know behind the lab leak theory process which is we've decided something right We're not going to discuss it anymore.

[940] So if you discuss it, you are in the bad zone.

[941] Right.

[942] And you're not even allowed to bring it up.

[943] Not even allowed to bring it up.

[944] And so there are just so many of these places in the kind of cultural landscape that are just, you know, no fly zones for talking about things.

[945] Well, Abigail Stryer is experiencing that in, you know, like the most hateful and aggressive way.

[946] with her book, I believe it's called Irreversible Damage, which is all about rapid onset gender dysphoria that seems to be happening to a lot of young girls.

[947] And they're trying to figure out what is going on when the percentage of people who identify as trans that are young girls is up several thousand percent.

[948] Right.

[949] Which is crazy.

[950] Yeah.

[951] Like what's happening?

[952] Obviously there are people who don't think that's happening and think that that rapid onset gender dysphoria isn't a thing.

[953] I interviewed Abigail because she also had a problem with the Internet platforms.

[954] I think it was with Amazon, right?

[955] Yes.

[956] And again, that's that whole phenomenon of, okay, it's controversial.

[957] Well, that used to be part of what having a First Amendment was all about.

[958] you know, we talk about this stuff.

[959] The whole point of having it is to protect discussions around things that are difficult.

[960] Yes.

[961] Right.

[962] Like, we don't have it so that we can have obvious conversations.

[963] And so if you think she's wrong, you know, let's talk about it.

[964] Right.

[965] Don't go to an internet platform and make it, you know, and shut it down at the source and make it impossible for somebody to have the discussion.

[966] What used to be the right that everybody was terrified of that was going to burn books, and it was based on religion.

[967] So now the left is doing it, and it's based on religion also.

[968] It's just a non -defined religion.

[969] It's a religion of wokeness.

[970] Like you have to have these parameters that you operate under, and as soon as you step outside of those parameters, you're supposed to be shut down and de -platformed, which is the term.

[971] It's essentially the same thing.

[972] You're calling for a book burning.

[973] Right.

[974] You're calling for a ban.

[975] Yeah.

[976] And you're calling for a ban on someone who very, some respected, intelligent people agree with her, have agreed with some of the things she said, have disagreed with some of the other things that she said, have discussed these things and realize that there is an issue here where people are malleable.

[977] This is the concept, right?

[978] The concept is that there is some sort of social acceptance and embracing of people who are trans and that this could be a problem with some people who are easily influenced and are maybe socially awkward or maybe even on the spectrum.

[979] And then someone comes along and says, you feel weird because you're really trans.

[980] And if you give that person testosterone, one of the things that happens with the administration of testosterone in people, particularly in girls, is there's a euphoria that comes with it.

[981] There's a sense of well -being.

[982] You get confidence and they might start thinking this is what has been wrong with me all this time.

[983] Now, these are not my words.

[984] These are not my opinions.

[985] This is just explaining with this phenomenon supposedly how you can define it.

[986] And I've done zero research.

[987] So I just want to be real clear about that.

[988] I don't know if that's actually what's going on.

[989] Yeah.

[990] So the assertion is that, uh, You have people in clusters, you know, social clusters who are, you know, they call it the social contagion phenomenon.

[991] And there would be other factors, too, like therapeutic attention is also something that, you know, some people may think is a positive, right?

[992] Kids might experience.

[993] They might feel better about life because they're getting more attention from clinicians or from teachers, something like that.

[994] but you have to test that right like that's the whole the whole point is like we're not deciding at the outset whether this is right or wrong it's that the way science works is well let's let's do a study about that figure out what's actually happening um and instead it's like if you have the having the conversation is now is now dangerous it's perilous right which is crazy to me like one of the reasons i became kind of politically liberal in the first place is because we didn't have those prohibitions.

[995] You know, the comedian said all the forbidden things.

[996] The intellectuals weren't afraid to have the scary discussions.

[997] I remember the first thing I liked about Noam Chomsky was that he stood up for the speech rights of some crazy Holocaust denier, right?

[998] Because the whole idea was, you had to have dialogue and fight for it.

[999] And what we're doing now, we were just, we had this atmosphere where people don't want to, they're just sort of deeply interested in scaring people away from certain topics, which I don't understand.

[1000] Well, a great example of that is the ACLU.

[1001] The ACLU, when it first started, they defended Nazis.

[1002] They defended Nazis right to speak, not defended their position as being accurate, but defended Nazis right to speak because they said that if you don't, if you, if you.

[1003] you believe in free speech, you believe in all speech.

[1004] And even if it's wrong, even if it's inaccurate, you have to defend free speech.

[1005] Now they are like one of the wokeest organizations that's out there.

[1006] They fly by this doctrine.

[1007] And, you know, their positions on things are entirely ideologically driven.

[1008] Yeah, there was a great documentary called Mighty Ira that's done by fire, you know, and they profile Ira Glasser, who was the head of of the ACLU for a long time.

[1009] And it goes into the whole mechanics of what the decision was to support the Nazis and Skokie.

[1010] And it was specifically based on the idea that all these ACLU people had fought in the civil rights era.

[1011] They had campaigned for civil rights.

[1012] And their whole argument was if you deny, if you let the town of Skokie decide who can and cannot march in their town, then.

[1013] then you're going to have some southern town the next day deciding that a black organization or the NAACP can't march there, right?

[1014] Are we going to make a million different authorities who are going to decide who gets to speak and who doesn't?

[1015] And that's a very compelling argument, right?

[1016] It's very compelling.

[1017] And it was deeply thought out and they were, they were really, really, they took it very seriously from an intellectual level.

[1018] Like, we know how offensive this is to people.

[1019] They thought about what it would mean to the residents with Skokie, many of whom were Holocaust survivors, what it would mean for them to see those marchers go past their houses.

[1020] They understood how, you know, if anything is harm, if any kind of speech is harmed, that is it.

[1021] Right.

[1022] But still, you know, that this is a foundation.

[1023] idea in the United States is that we we defend this because it's it's part of our identity and we're losing I think we're losing touch with why we have those ideas you know and why it's so important to debate these ideas and that you know when people are confused they can see a better argument they can see someone who eloquently spells out why these Nazis are wrong and then you go okay now I have a framework now I understand like if someone doesn't know why they're wrong like maybe someone's uneducated maybe someone grew up around people that were racist or Nazis and then they get this compelling explanation of everything now you wouldn't have had that if you didn't have the Nazis like you kind of need the shitheads and the bad people of the world so that you can say here's why they're wrong and then you know it gets messy and in the age of social media, that's where it's weird because these shitheads never really had a platform before where they can get on these whatever platform social media allows them and they can develop massive followings saying crazy shit.

[1024] But that's still the same.

[1025] We have to realize that even though it's new and it's uncomfortable and you're seeing these numbers and people are being indoctrated into these ideas.

[1026] What's important is to have a compelling argument against it.

[1027] Yeah.

[1028] And to have that and to say, hey, this is why these people are wrong.

[1029] Look, here's the most eloquent, thought -out, articulate argument against that.

[1030] And then where reasonable people are allowed to look at these two things and go, well, clearly these people over here are correct.

[1031] And clearly, I see why these people are so fucked up and this is what's wrong.

[1032] Yeah.

[1033] Doing it the other way, just saying, okay, we're, we're not going to let you see that idea.

[1034] We're going to make sure that it comes, or it comes a fix with a warning label, or it's, we're going to make sure that person does not appear on this internet platform.

[1035] You know, you know what the Streisand effect is, right?

[1036] It's, it's.

[1037] Explain that to people, the whole story behind that.

[1038] Yeah, I don't remember exactly what happened.

[1039] It's a house.

[1040] She had a house in Malibu, and it was this big, beautiful house, and they took photos of it from the air, and she got pissed, and she demanded to be taken down off the internet.

[1041] And when she did that, everybody was like, what house is that?

[1042] And then it became way more popular.

[1043] And then everybody wanted to know where Barbara Streisand's house was, and that became the stricent effect.

[1044] She was operating under this delusion that we were living in 1950, when you can get the newspaper to, like, take something down, and that would be it.

[1045] That'd be the end of it.

[1046] But in the age of the internet it has the opposite effect intended and this and this gets back to what we were saying at the very beginning like this this idea that people have to understand that not every there isn't a solution to everything like right and i think internet speech is the classic example of where people think there must be something we can do some thing a step that we can take to make sure that these kinds of thinkers don't exist anymore and There isn't.

[1047] Like, it's logistically impossible for a company like Facebook or Google or Twitter to scan individually each piece of content.

[1048] It's being created at too fast a rate.

[1049] The only way to do it is to have a better argument and win on that level culturally.

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] And they think that there's some kind of mechanical solution to this, and there isn't.

[1052] Does not.

[1053] And you have to be comfortable.

[1054] with that like that's part of again that's part of what it being a person is is you have to deal with some things that are just you know disturbing yeah and you have to have messy conversations and you know and you're going to have to explain to your children what's going on here and who these people are great here's this is related do you guys are you aware of this new hate group march that was walking where all these guys were walking with american flags made up get back in the truck What's that?

[1055] Yes, they all jumped in the back of a U -Haul truck together.

[1056] There has never been a thing that I've ever seen where almost immediately I was like, those are feds.

[1057] Oh, did this happen?

[1058] I immediately, like, that's fake.

[1059] Like my immediate feeling.

[1060] I looked at them.

[1061] First of all, these guys are too slim.

[1062] I'm looking at these guys.

[1063] They're all in shape.

[1064] They're all thin.

[1065] They're uniformly marching with flags.

[1066] I'm like, there's no way these fucking idiots would be this organized.

[1067] Then, someone did a deep dive on Twitter.

[1068] I wish I could remember who.

[1069] But someone did a deep dive on Twitter and found out that the account in which this whole thing went viral is a completely fake account that has no followers and was started about a month ago with an AI generated face.

[1070] It's a fake face as like the profile picture.

[1071] It's one of those pictures.

[1072] They take a bunch of people's faces and they smush it and make this one lady.

[1073] And then she had a picture of a dog in like one of her Facebook posts.

[1074] But there's no engagement.

[1075] There's no interaction.

[1076] The entire account is only a month old.

[1077] And her post on this somehow or another went viral.

[1078] And this is what started the sharing of it.

[1079] But if you look at these people walking down the street with their masks on, all dressed in black, all wearing like essentially a uniform, all holding the same size American flag.

[1080] and then eventually they all jumped into the back of a U -Haul and were carted off at the end of this stupid fucking march but if you watch this I'm like what are you guys doing was this supposed to be some like right -wing Q &on hate group exactly exactly and they call themselves the Patriot something or another Patriot Front Patriot Front you need to see this yeah we need to see the video we need to see the video because when you see them marching you look at them marching you go why are these guys in such good shape?

[1081] Idiots are usually fat.

[1082] Like, there's some fatness to them.

[1083] Like, they don't have discipline, right?

[1084] Right.

[1085] This is not wise folks that are eating correctly.

[1086] I mean, Americans are most usually fat.

[1087] This is uniformly thin and fit looking with the same outfits on, the same flags.

[1088] Like, you're telling me the FBI I didn't know about these people.

[1089] Right.

[1090] You're telling me the FBI is not monitoring fringe groups, and they were not aware of these people with this fucking organized out of nowhere they pop out with the same size flags and the same outfit on goose stepping they're walking not goose tape but you know walking in this at the same pace in a fucking orderly line like who's who organized this this is them on their bus I was trying to I thought this is going to turn to the video them walk see the video of them walking does that the video them walking they're linking to blog posts so it's not gonna God there's got to be a video them walking.

[1091] I know, I've watched it.

[1092] Here's it.

[1093] Uniformed, uniformed white nationalist group marches on Lincoln Memorial.

[1094] CNN's all in.

[1095] They're like, we're all in on this.

[1096] Come on, show us.

[1097] Look at these guys.

[1098] Look at these guys.

[1099] Where's the fat people?

[1100] How come they're all wearing the same clothes?

[1101] Do that again.

[1102] What the fuck is this?

[1103] Is that, if you ever seen anything that looks more like feds?

[1104] Tell me that doesn't look like feds.

[1105] Right?

[1106] It's like the 101st airborne Bro, look at this.

[1107] These guys are all runners.

[1108] These guys look at they just got out of buds.

[1109] I mean, the fuck out of here.

[1110] They could be real.

[1111] Right, they could be real.

[1112] They could be real.

[1113] Listen, Matt Taeeby, I'm an unreliable source, and I'm a comedian.

[1114] But looking at that, I'm calling bullshit.

[1115] Give me that again.

[1116] Give me that again.

[1117] Yeah, okay.

[1118] Well, this gets back to like the Oklahoma Ivermectin story where you're...

[1119] Right, where they're all wearing winter coats.

[1120] Yeah, like you, you know...

[1121] Look at this.

[1122] The fuck out of here.

[1123] How do they all have, like, uniformed outfits on?

[1124] They have the same color pants for the most part.

[1125] Very little variation.

[1126] They have tan or brown pants, dark blue shirts with a fucking stupid flag on it.

[1127] This asshole's got a drum.

[1128] Back that up.

[1129] Look at the fucking drum.

[1130] Bitch, are you Paul Revere?

[1131] What the fuck are you doing with that drum?

[1132] He's walking around with a band drum, like a high school drum line.

[1133] This is so stupid, it hurts my feelings.

[1134] all have flags?

[1135] Keep that up there.

[1136] I was trying to find...

[1137] There's videos from them from like July.

[1138] But I'd like to see that again.

[1139] So you know what's so interesting about this, though?

[1140] Is that, again...

[1141] Oh, okay.

[1142] I just need to see it.

[1143] Go ahead.

[1144] Tell me. Look at this.

[1145] I mean, maybe they're real.

[1146] Maybe they're real.

[1147] Could be real.

[1148] But I'm calling bullshit.

[1149] They have the same fucking size flags, the same white coloring on their face, the same tan hats on.

[1150] Get the fuck out of you.

[1151] And why are they wearing masks, by the way?

[1152] Because they're cowards.

[1153] Right.

[1154] Or they're feds.

[1155] Right?

[1156] Your instinct when you see that.

[1157] Well, I mean, I'm suspicious of everything.

[1158] I certainly wouldn't put that up and be like chilling scene like, you know, without looking into it a little bit, you know.

[1159] Yeah.

[1160] But again, back in the day, it was the left that.

[1161] July 4th.

[1162] So they've been doing this for a while.

[1163] Oh, so white supremacist group marches through the heart of Philadelphia.

[1164] Oh, I remember this from Philadelphia.

[1165] And look, the same thing.

[1166] Like they have the same shields, the same.

[1167] Irish line dancing.

[1168] God, it's so weird.

[1169] You think it's real?

[1170] If it is real.

[1171] I think it could be.

[1172] It's just weird.

[1173] They seem like feds to me. They're too fit.

[1174] But I know it doesn't mean that racist can't exercise.

[1175] I know racist exercise, folks, relax.

[1176] But I'm just saying when you're looking at that.

[1177] 42 chapters, including Pennsylvania, New Jersey.

[1178] They're linked to a group called Vanguard America, which gained infamy after the Charlottesville, Virginia event.

[1179] They recruit on college campuses with flyers, conduct flash protests, and even commit acts of vandalism.

[1180] Could be.

[1181] I mean, who knows?

[1182] There's enough assholes on America for it to be possible.

[1183] Just not, I don't know if they're all, they would all be thin like that.

[1184] What was the thing recently where they found out that a great percentage?

[1185] of the people.

[1186] The Michigan thing.

[1187] Explain that.

[1188] These are the people that were trying to kidnap the government.

[1189] Explain that.

[1190] I don't know.

[1191] I didn't cover the story, but basically it was an attempt to cover, kidnapped the governor Whitmer, right?

[1192] And they found out that a high percentage of the people involved were FBI informants.

[1193] Which again, back in the day, would not have been surprising to people on the left because this is part of like the, you know, what you, we were.

[1194] were taught back in the when they had co -intel pro yes and FBI informants were no you know it was notorious in the 60s and 70s this idea of having you know ajan's provocateurs and in the crowd people who were throwing things that reach at soldiers who coming back from vietnam uh to discredit the anti -war crowd right like uh the assassination of fred hampton the infiltration of the black panthers like you know all this stuff it was under that the FBI did this stuff, or that different law enforcement agencies did this stuff, now suddenly people on the left disbelieve instantly that this happens.

[1195] They are reluctant to accept it.

[1196] Now, again, you have to prove it in each case, right?

[1197] So you can't just, you know, you can't just assert that this or that person is a federal agent.

[1198] But you should have some healthy skepticism about each one of these things you know and and especially now with the way media and the internet works and virality oops sorry is that you yeah that is me sorry Jamie pull go ahead please go no this I just sent Jamie this it's the greatest meme it's they're all dressed up like spider one and all of them says fed fed fed another fed and then And one says some autistic fuck, some poor guy that they trick into doing something.

[1199] You know, that was the suspicion amongst the conspiracy theorists about the Boston bombing.

[1200] Right.

[1201] That they had radicalized those brothers and actually talked them into committing some sort of a terrorist act.

[1202] Right.

[1203] Right.

[1204] Yeah.

[1205] And.

[1206] Right.

[1207] Yeah.

[1208] Again, you have to look at a case by case, but it definitely happens.

[1209] It definitely happens.

[1210] It happened in Dallas.

[1211] That one guy.

[1212] that they got, I believe he's from Egypt, he was 19 years old, and they talked him into using a cell phone to detonate a bomb that they had provided him that was not really a bomb.

[1213] And when he used that cell phone to detonate the bomb, then they arrested him.

[1214] So they set him up, radicalized him, brought him in, told him, you know, you're going to do this thing, it's going to be amazing, you're going to be awesome.

[1215] So we were all up in arms about this when the first war on terror happened, We knew shit like this was going on, whether it was, you know, informants pushing people to do things they didn't want to do or creating terror watch lists, no fly lists, putting people under illegal surveillance, illegally detaining them.

[1216] We were all concerned about this, you know, at least liberals were.

[1217] And suddenly now that they're doing this other kind.

[1218] of war on terror, this is domestic war on terror.

[1219] Nobody cares.

[1220] It's as if those concerns no longer exist.

[1221] Well, they found a loophole.

[1222] They found a way to sneak it in in an acceptable, a socially acceptable way.

[1223] Right.

[1224] Exactly.

[1225] And that's, kudos to the authorities for coming up with it because it's brilliant.

[1226] It is.

[1227] As a marketing, you know, especially Trump is obviously a huge part of this whole thing.

[1228] You know, selling to America the idea Because you think about it, before Trump, think about how unpopular the intelligence services were in 2014, 2015, after the Snowden revelations.

[1229] You know, you talk to Snowden, right?

[1230] He was one of the most famous people in the world.

[1231] And he, you know, we got the heads of the intelligence agencies lying to Congress openly, getting away with it.

[1232] People were, they were furious, right?

[1233] Yeah.

[1234] And then all of a sudden, in a heartbeat, those exact same people, the people we were, everybody was so mad at, suddenly became heroes because they were the ones in the front lines, you know, battling Donald Trump.

[1235] Right.

[1236] And battling him by lying about him.

[1237] By lying, you know, by lying about him incidentally, yeah, right?

[1238] Like that was, that was fascinating.

[1239] Like Comey became a hero.

[1240] Comey, John Brennan.

[1241] Yeah.

[1242] But then when you look at what those guys actually did, you're like, holy shit.

[1243] Like, you're not supposed to do that.

[1244] Of course not.

[1245] Yeah.

[1246] And this is all coming out now.

[1247] I mean, I was one of the few.

[1248] Like, Glenn was another one.

[1249] Like, there was a small circle of journalists at the time that, you know, in the early years of Trump, who were just like, something about this just doesn't smell right.

[1250] Like the story just feels wrong.

[1251] intelligence sources, especially anonymous ones, are inherently untrustworthy, and yet suddenly American audiences are trusting them en masse, and they shouldn't, you know, and that's no different from it's ever been.

[1252] We shouldn't have trusted them when the WMD thing happened, and, you know, people like Glenn and myself pointed that out then, and we shouldn't trust them now, you know, And, but they, they, people were so worked up about Donald Trump that suddenly they were ready to jump in bed with people like John Brennan and Comey and Clapper and all these guys, like, these are like horrible people.

[1253] It's so crazy.

[1254] But one thing that governments have been, our government in particular has been really good at is capitalizing on a state of chaos and using it to their advantage.

[1255] And this is something that happened post 9 -11 with the Patriot Act and the Patriot Act too, which I believe.

[1256] I believe the Patriot Act has never been used to arrest a terrorist.

[1257] I wouldn't know that.

[1258] Fine if that's true.

[1259] But it has been used to arrest many drug dealers and to use on people who are, you know, air quotes, enemies.

[1260] But when chaos happens and they realize that there's some opportunity, they take advantage of opportunities.

[1261] It's always been a part of history.

[1262] People have always done that.

[1263] Well, that seems like what's happening now, and that seems like something that we should be concerned about.

[1264] Absolutely.

[1265] Look, look, it was transparently what they were doing after 9 -11.

[1266] Everybody should be scared to death.

[1267] Therefore, we need additional powers to do A through Z, right?

[1268] And it's, it was nuts the stuff they, you know, the FISA Enhancements Act and, you know, the Patriot Act.

[1269] The No Fly List, the watch lists, all this stuff.

[1270] The FBI's national security letters, you know, this thing where they would, the FBI sends a letter to a company, tells them that they are barred from telling their customers that they're divulging their information to the FBI.

[1271] They sent out tens of thousands of those letters.

[1272] There was an IG report about that.

[1273] Actually, there were a bunch of IG reports about that.

[1274] And this whole regime of surveillance, you know, just got approved willy -nilly because the public was scared.

[1275] People were freaked out.

[1276] You know, they didn't want it to happen again.

[1277] So they just said, okay, go ahead.

[1278] We trust you.

[1279] And, of course, they massively abused these programs.

[1280] You know, they started to do things that were really crazy.

[1281] Like, you know, using the enhanced secret surveillance to.

[1282] tools as evidence in criminal cases, but it would be hidden.

[1283] In other words, like, if you'd be charged with a drug crime, right?

[1284] And if you ask for discovery, they would give you all the documents that they had to give you, but they wouldn't let you know that maybe you were under surveillance or there was a FISA warrant.

[1285] You've been caught in some other way.

[1286] They don't have to disclose that stuff.

[1287] They don't have to disclose the national security letter stuff.

[1288] And so it became like this self.

[1289] separate legal system and Americans just got used to it and and then when Trump happened they were so afraid of him and all the all the possibilities that came with that that now they're now they're willing to let all kinds of new tools be used on them yeah it's just it's crazy that they're not nobody's more worried about it well when I heard Joe Biden say that the biggest threat to this country is white supremacy I was like okay what it was going on here like what are they doing like what are they doing because look charlottesville was horrific right and when that guy ran over a bunch of people with his car in charlottesville it opened up the door to people saying like hey this is genuinely horrible it is scary it is scary but then they swoop in and say this is the number one problem in this country right like which is crazy to say because it's a small percentage of people that are out of their fucking mind that generally don't have much of an impact on our culture.

[1290] But when the president says that white supremacy is the biggest problem that we face, I immediately go, who told you to say that?

[1291] What are you doing?

[1292] What are you planning?

[1293] Right.

[1294] Like, what's going on here?

[1295] Like, how many people, like, clearly, clearly, there's a lot of people that were involved in January 6th that were out of their fucking mind and really did think that they were going to take over the government.

[1296] Right.

[1297] They really did think that Donald Trump was truly the president and they were queuing on all the way and they really thought they're, but clearly there were some feds involved in that.

[1298] They were manipulating those people, clearly.

[1299] If you said, I'm not only, have you seen that one guy, we've highlighted them on the show.

[1300] There's this one guy that was telling people over and over again, they got to go in that building.

[1301] I'm telling you right now, we've got to get in there.

[1302] And that guy's never faced any charges, and they know his name.

[1303] And it's like a real fucking shadowy sort of a situation.

[1304] Like, what's going on here?

[1305] Right.

[1306] Because you know, if the government knew that something was going on like that, for sure they would infiltrate.

[1307] For sure, they've infiltrated all these wacky groups.

[1308] That's just part of their job.

[1309] They have to.

[1310] You kind of find out how dangerous they are.

[1311] I mean, it's part of their job.

[1312] It would be a new story if they weren't, actually.

[1313] Right, they would be irresponsible.

[1314] Right.

[1315] Yeah, they would be incompetent.

[1316] So it is their job.

[1317] Now, once they're in there, the question is, how much manipulation are they allowed to do before it becomes their idea?

[1318] Right.

[1319] Which brings us to like the witty bulger type situation, right?

[1320] Like we're, you know.

[1321] Explain that.

[1322] Well, the FBI had an incredibly close relationship with the...

[1323] Who's an informant?

[1324] Yeah, with Whitey Belcher, the Irish gangster in Boston, who was an FBI informant.

[1325] And essentially, they were sort of greenlighting, you know, his activities in order to get to the Italian mafia.

[1326] And, you know, but there's a line, you know, that they crossed.

[1327] you know, into actively being involved, right?

[1328] And questions, how often do they do that, you know?

[1329] Right.

[1330] Is that standard operational procedure?

[1331] Right.

[1332] Yeah, we don't know.

[1333] I mean, I think it's interesting that the guy who's doing the investigation into the Russia gate stuff now, John Dorham, was also the prosecutor in that case.

[1334] I don't think that's a coincidence because he's, you know, but anyway.

[1335] But yeah, no, the thing with Biden talking about, you know, white supremacy is the biggest threat, it's clearly, there's clearly something deeply wrong with this country that there clearly is domestic white terrorism.

[1336] There's no question that it exists.

[1337] But they've become really, really loose with that term.

[1338] Like, the written house case was a classic example for me. Right.

[1339] Of how you just, you have to be more careful about, like they were calling him a white supremacism.

[1340] The president called him a The president called him, like, just in the level of libel, we used to be afraid to do that, right?

[1341] Like, you would have to have something that allowed you to say that this guy was a white supremacist before you put that on the air in print because you'd be afraid of being sued.

[1342] You'd be the end of your career.

[1343] And all they really had were some vague cultural markers, right?

[1344] Like, would I tell my kid to pick up an AR -15 and go to a protest?

[1345] Absolutely not.

[1346] But, you know, as a journalist, I can't call him that unless I have something more.

[1347] There was a, the difference between calling it a protest and the air of fear and chaos that was prevalent when that whole thing went down.

[1348] This was post the George Floyd riots, and everything was crazy.

[1349] In Los Angeles, they were letting cop cars on fire.

[1350] There were pallets of bricks that are mysteriously dropped off at protests.

[1351] sites and windows were smashed through Beverly Hills.

[1352] They had an early curfew.

[1353] People have quick memories.

[1354] They have short memories and they forget how fucking crazy it was.

[1355] Like right after that George Floyd protest, right after George Floyd's murder, when everybody was chaotic, like the country was in a state of chaos, that's when that happened.

[1356] So this kid was asked by, I think they had a used car lot.

[1357] By the way, have you ever seen the guy?

[1358] who he was told to, they're Indian.

[1359] Uh -huh.

[1360] I think they're Indian.

[1361] I think if this is accurate, I got another meme for you because I love memes.

[1362] Oh, I'll find it.

[1363] I mean, the other thing about that case was that, you know, the protest in Kenosha were about the Jacob Blake case, which was.

[1364] Yes.

[1365] And, you know, I wrote a book about the Eric Garner case, which was, you know, unequivocally a brutal.

[1366] police killing where the police were at fault like no question about it but the the blake incident was much more complicated right and there's a reason like if you look at the reasons why the the d a and uh and the civil rights division of the justice department didn't file charges in that case is because there was a lot of stuff about that case that was you know made it made it There's a lot of gray area in terms of the decision making that the police made there.

[1367] And people naturally assumed, and this is what we do know, we see something on Twitter, we see like a 20 -second piece of video, we think we know the whole story.

[1368] But the reality is most of the time the initial impression of news is wrong, at least somewhere.

[1369] There's usually some kind of error built in, and that's why we need the next two and three days and months to sort out exactly what happened.

[1370] But, and in that case, you know, we just didn't.

[1371] There were a lot of ambiguities that just got turned and instantaneously into a narrative that, you know, it was really unfortunate.

[1372] There's also a frantic rush, and to say that someone was racist or a white supremacist, and there was a narrative that was rewarded.

[1373] Paul, this meme that I just said, this is why I said that.

[1374] I have a whole meme folder.

[1375] on my iPhone that I just can't wait to use.

[1376] So he wanted to protect a business owned by these guys.

[1377] I don't know if they're Middle Eastern or Indian or what they were.

[1378] It says, shoots these guys and shows, shoots three white guys.

[1379] Worst white supremacists ever.

[1380] Not only that, but one of the guys that he shot was a repeat offender, child rapist.

[1381] Right.

[1382] The guy in the middle.

[1383] I mean, he raped multiple children.

[1384] Mentally ill. I mean, yeah, literally one of the, it's just one of the worst crimes you could imagine.

[1385] But they, sort of without hesitation, people would do things like, say, well, it's clearly a problem that there, you know, there weren't enough minorities in the jury in this case where everybody involved was white.

[1386] I think a lot of the news consumers were just sort of led to believe certain things just by the way, by implication.

[1387] They didn't always identify whether the people who got shot were white or black or anything.

[1388] They would just sort of say they were shot.

[1389] Meanwhile, they would say repeatedly that written house was white.

[1390] I have friends that are black that didn't know that they were white victims until the trial started.

[1391] Right.

[1392] And that said, dude, I thought he shot black people.

[1393] They didn't, they literally didn't know.

[1394] And so the thing was it was a Black Lives Matter protest.

[1395] He shot people.

[1396] They thought he shot black people.

[1397] They thought he was a racist.

[1398] And then the president calls him a white supremacist.

[1399] I got the picture.

[1400] Right.

[1401] Right.

[1402] And you can see how that can happen.

[1403] Yes.

[1404] If you're just picking up, you know, the newspaper or you're watching CNN and they're just neglecting to leave out certain details.

[1405] which, you know, it has to be strategic.

[1406] And again, this gets back to what I was saying before.

[1407] It's not like anybody tells you to do this.

[1408] Right.

[1409] You just sort of know that the story is going to sell better or it's going to play better if you highlight certain things, right?

[1410] And I think that's what happens with, you know, with a lot of the people in this case.

[1411] And it's uncomfortable to talk about this stuff because people assume that you have sympathies with somebody like Rittenhouse or, you know, all the people who love lionized them on, you know, on Fox, Fox News.

[1412] That's not it.

[1413] You just, you just got to get this stuff right.

[1414] You have a heightened responsibility to get it right when people are amped up and they're, and they're mad, and they're ready to go out in the streets and fight each other.

[1415] Yeah.

[1416] That's when you have to be super careful about what you say, you know, especially in media.

[1417] It really highlights the importance of real journalism, because this would have never taken place if real journalism had been steadfastly followed from the jump.

[1418] if people said this is what we know and this is what happened these are the victims these people were the one of the things about like any kind of protest or any kind of chaos and this is something that is just part of human nature when people know that there's chaos and there's protest there's a lot of people to join in that really have nothing to do with it exactly and I think that's what was going on here particularly with that one guy who was the child a rapist right and that happened all over the country by the way, after the Floyd thing, which was one of the reasons why the reporting about that was so disappointing, right?

[1419] Because there were lots and lots of reporters, and I knew a few of them, who were kind of discouraged from talking about, you know, some of the ancillary stories, right?

[1420] Like, okay, this neighborhood has been damaged, therefore elderly people can't get their prescriptions because the drug store has been burned down or whatever it is, right?

[1421] Because the, because the implication is that the protesters, their cause was unjust, so let's not do that story.

[1422] But in many cases, these weren't really even protesters.

[1423] In some places, they were, and in some places they weren't, right?

[1424] But that's what the job is for.

[1425] We have to go out there and ask, you know, was this, was this part of the protest?

[1426] Was this opportunistic looting?

[1427] You know, sorry.

[1428] You and this phone.

[1429] I know, I'm sorry.

[1430] Just put it on silent.

[1431] How dare you?

[1432] I know, I know.

[1433] I love your ringtone, though.

[1434] It's very festive.

[1435] It is festive.

[1436] It's cute.

[1437] Don't worry about it.

[1438] Yeah.

[1439] Listen, man, I'm the last person.

[1440] I've fucked up.

[1441] I've done that.

[1442] The problem with being honest about that when there's a frenzy in the air, which there most certainly was post George Floyd is that it's dangerous and you know you can get attacked for just stating facts like um there was a lot of people on the right that were trying to say that he wasn't murdered and that he died of a fentanyl overdose and he would have died anyway and to those people I would say fuck you because like you have no idea what it's like to have someone lean on your neck for eight and a half minutes.

[1443] I actually do.

[1444] I've had guys do jujitsu and put their fucking knee on my neck for a minute or 30 seconds.

[1445] It's horrific.

[1446] To imagine being handcuffed and someone do that on the concrete, not even a jujitsu mat.

[1447] It's impossible to overstate that you most likely are either you're going to go unconscious or something something really fucked up is going to happen to you.

[1448] It's very, very bad.

[1449] It's not.

[1450] not as simple as he got a drug over.

[1451] We have fucking clear evidence of this guy kneeling on his neck for eight minutes and 40 something seconds.

[1452] Right.

[1453] There is no fucking way that didn't have an effect on him.

[1454] And I think someone tried to do that.

[1455] They tried to make a point that it's not that big of a deal and they had someone do it to him and they tapped out early.

[1456] Was it Crowder?

[1457] Did he do that?

[1458] Someone did that.

[1459] I don't know who did that.

[1460] But my point is because of that there was a narrative where you weren't allowed to say other things about George Floyd that were true like the fact that he held a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach when he was robbing her like he wasn't a good guy he did all he should not have had that happen to him by any stretch of the imagination there's no world where what that guy did was okay but this is not a good guy like to make statues of him and lionize him and make him out to be some sort of a hero that's not accurate either right but you couldn't say that yeah they made sort of a religious icon out of them right the the same kind of misreporting on the in the other direction happened in the garner case which i again i wrote a book about um there were a lot of people who tried to say that he was killed because he was diabetic and he was overweight yeah and that clearly was not the case like i had i had police sources trying to sell me that off the record all the time that um oh, you know, he would have gone anyway, right?

[1461] And look, A, watch the video, but don't even just do that.

[1462] Like, read the medical examiner's report, which says homicide on it, you know, because they've determined medically the cause of death was and, you know, compression of the chest.

[1463] In other words, you can't just go off what somebody says about something.

[1464] You have to look into it and look into it again and again and again.

[1465] And in, you know, in the case of Garner, like Garner was somebody who had some pretty bad stuff in his past going back a long way, but had kind of turned his life around and was somebody who was known in the block as being a really good dude who broke up fights, you know, gave all his money to his family members.

[1466] One of the reasons his clothes were in such disrepair is that he wouldn't buy himself new clothes.

[1467] He gave every dollar to his kids.

[1468] Wow.

[1469] Like that's, he was a good dude.

[1470] But you can't, but these are details you got to, you know, you got to tell the truth about the other stuff.

[1471] Like, yeah.

[1472] I knew his daughter, Erica, and we talked about like how we were, how she wanted to see the book done.

[1473] And I said, well, how do you want me to deal with the stuff from his past, you know?

[1474] And she, and she said, look, he was, he was just a man. Right?

[1475] Like, you got to show all that stuff.

[1476] And I thought that was incredibly cool of her.

[1477] You know, like, she, she really admired her father.

[1478] She thought he had gotten through a lot of things, but she didn't want him to be like a two -dimensional character, you know?

[1479] And I think that's what they've done.

[1480] That is very admirable.

[1481] It's fascinating when you think how the times have changed since then, because now there's not a chance in hell they would arrest him for doing that.

[1482] policing has gotten so loose they're so scared of arresting people for he got arrested for selling loose cigarettes he wasn't even doing it that's the hilarious yes right right right right he was that day he mean he he had done in the past right but he wasn't doing it that day and they they physically manhandled him and they straggled them and you know and then they tried to say it wasn't chokehold which is the same thing that I say about the the thing with George Floyd fuck you yeah anybody who tries to say that that to me I'm gonna tap out it's a choke hold he's fucking strangling the guy like if you get a guy who knows how to choke you and I'm assuming the cop knows how to choke people he'd seem like a strong guy you get a hold of your neck like that that's a fucking choke hold it's not just a restrain and it didn't have to happen one thing that has changed that I think I mean there's a lot of negativity there's a lot of negative shit that's happened from this whole defund the police thing and the fact that you know the police officers feel so they don't feel like they can do their job anymore without risking getting in trouble for something like they're just a standard job so they're letting so many more things happen and if you look at the amount of crimes like the uptick in crimes post -pandemic it's irrational I mean it's really wild what and that's another thing that I that was really disappointing to me after the after the Floyd thing happened because nobody wanted to look at the policy issue.

[1483] What's the biggest contributing factor to police brutality cases?

[1484] It's the number of contacts you have between police and people.

[1485] And a lot of that has to do with the heightened number of stops that you have through programs like stop and frisk.

[1486] In New York it was clean halls, right?

[1487] Like they're, it's this, this, what they call the community policing techniques.

[1488] The whole idea is, let's stop a gazillion people.

[1489] We'll search them, right?

[1490] Because, or we'll pat them down.

[1491] This is that based on a Supreme Court case called Ohio v. Terry that allows police to do that.

[1492] If they have articulable suspicion that somebody is committing a crime, they're allowed to pat you down.

[1493] So they used to not really use that that much.

[1494] the innovation in the 80s, 90s, and going forward was let's just use that a lot.

[1495] Let's just start stopping people all the time and patting them down, right?

[1496] And they did it hundreds of thousands of times in New York.

[1497] They did it in every city in the country.

[1498] And what happens when you massively increase the number of times that police put their hands on people, a percentage of those contacts are going to go wrong, right?

[1499] They just will.

[1500] Somebody's going to get mad.

[1501] they're not going to want to see their book bag emptied on the ground.

[1502] They're not going to be, you know, they're not going to want to have somebody put their hands down their pants.

[1503] And eventually someone's going to say no, like Eric Garner, right?

[1504] And you're going to have a death in your hands that was totally avoidable, right?

[1505] And so, but you do need police for the real stuff.

[1506] Like in other words, if somebody's at a, you know, shows up at his ex -girlfriend, friend's house and starts waving a gun or a knife around and picks up a kid and runs for a car, like, that's when you actually do need the police to intervene.

[1507] And that's what got lost in this whole debate was, like, what do we actually want police to do, you know, versus what have they been doing?

[1508] And there was almost no discussion of those policy issues.

[1509] It was just police are bad and, you know, therefore let's take their money away.

[1510] Whereas there's so many instantly fixable things they could have done that they didn't do.

[1511] And the most liberal cities have had the most irrational responses to it.

[1512] So, like, look, the Arner thing is horrible, right?

[1513] That should have never happened.

[1514] So here we go, where we are now.

[1515] In San Francisco, you can steal $900 worth of stuff and you can't get arrested.

[1516] So now you're having mass lootings where people are just running into stores, throwing stuff in their bag, and then leaving.

[1517] Right.

[1518] Which is crazy.

[1519] Like, Northern California is fucked.

[1520] They're really, and now L .A. L .A. is experiencing a rash of these smashing grabs.

[1521] They don't have any faith at all.

[1522] There's law enforcement that's going to take care of these things.

[1523] So their fear of the cops is, like, non -existent now.

[1524] They're just stealing things.

[1525] Right.

[1526] It's happening so often that it's an epidemic.

[1527] They're literally calling it an epidemic.

[1528] Like, what do we do about this?

[1529] How do you stop this?

[1530] And how do you stop this, given the, the current climate, the way people are viewing the police and the way the cops are viewing the support that they have from the community and from the government.

[1531] It's kind of crazy.

[1532] Well, and a lot of those ideas probably came from people who live in affluent white communities who don't know what it is to occasionally need to call the police.

[1533] Yes.

[1534] They live in towns where the police are basically there, you know, kind of for show or they do they get overtime to do.

[1535] traffic stops or to, you know, at school parades and stuff like that.

[1536] They're not there for real crime, right?

[1537] If you go into a tough neighborhood like where Eric Garner lived in Staten Island, there are debates in the street.

[1538] Like, you know, there'll be one group of people who say, if this was a white neighborhood, they would never allow this much crime.

[1539] There'd be more police, right?

[1540] And there are people who are angry that there isn't a legitimate police presence at all times to protect them from things, right?

[1541] And there's another group that thinks the police are inherently bad and cause more problems than they create than they fix and that they need to go away.

[1542] But that's a legitimate debate that happens in those neighborhoods.

[1543] And if you look at the polls, you'll see that, you know, it's not necessarily.

[1544] coming from the black communities that you the the the defund efforts aren't always coming from there right people who are most most in favor of that the people who have no conception of what the police are for you know and that's frustrating to you know and I think that was misrepresented after the Floyd thing like people wants they want better policing they want smarter policing they want they want police who are less you know aren't so quick to use force.

[1545] You know, they want more non -lethal force.

[1546] They want it to be less intrusive.

[1547] They want to be able to walk on molested down the street without being assumed that they're dealing drugs or something or something like that.

[1548] But they don't want to be there to be no police at all.

[1549] Right.

[1550] Well, Minneapolis is experiencing that now.

[1551] They're trying to fix it because they did kind of defund the police.

[1552] But now they've experienced more crime than ever.

[1553] And they're like, okay, we've got to do something.

[1554] Right.

[1555] And the expression that I've read recently is like we're trying to stop the bleeding.

[1556] Right.

[1557] You know, the community leaders are talking about this.

[1558] Like, we've got to do something to stop the current climate of crime because it's actually worse than it was before George Floyd.

[1559] It didn't make it better when we defunded the police.

[1560] It made it worse.

[1561] And then, again, it's such a reversal of, I mean, it's happening now too.

[1562] But we used to overplay crime stories in the media because that was how that was how we scared white readers of papers like the New York Post into coming back over and over again they put big you know they put mug shots on the front page of every black suspect and you know that the whole idea was they were playing on the fears of middle class white people and queens and the outer boroughs and stuff like that and they gobbled that stuff up now they're kind of doing the opposite in some places like they're either underreporting crime or they're misreporting it you know it's it's a strange phenomenon it's not it's not easy to see like where they're going with that well the Wisconsin SUV the guy who drove the SUV into the Christmas parade is a great example of that right yeah I mean I it was odd to me that the that we haven't seen a lot of follow -up reporting on that like where's about the way they wrote about it the titles, the accident caused by an SUV.

[1563] Caused by an SUV, yeah, or a crash or something like that.

[1564] And, yeah, I get back to, like, where's the spirit of just curiosity?

[1565] Like, I want to know what that was.

[1566] Right.

[1567] What was, like, before I knew anything about who drove the car, what the person looked like, anything.

[1568] Your mind runs through all the scenarios.

[1569] Is it somebody who's whacked out on drugs?

[1570] Is it a terrorist attack?

[1571] Is it a, you know, I thought about Charlottesville first, you know?

[1572] That was one of the things I thought about, right?

[1573] So we want to know what, it's, our job is to tell people, you know, what actually happen in these things.

[1574] And you can't just stop and suddenly have a lack of curiosity once, you know, things don't exactly fit.

[1575] I don't know.

[1576] It just feels like there was a lack of resolve to get to the bottom of that.

[1577] Well, the difference between the way right -wing media covered it and left -wing media was incredibly stark.

[1578] I mean, left -wing media didn't touch the fact that this guy had post -supporting Hitler and that he had tried to run over his girlfriend in a car, which was why he was in jail, that he got let on on $1 ,000 bail, which is incredibly low for a guy who tried to commit vehicular homicide.

[1579] I mean, it's fucking wild.

[1580] This trend of letting people out of jail easy that try to commit violent crimes and letting them off on very low bails and letting them right back out in the street is one of the weirder things that's going on right now.

[1581] One of the weirder things that you see from these progressive district attorneys and in these liberal cities, it's very strange and I don't understand the logic behind it.

[1582] I mean, I get it a a little bit.

[1583] I mean, I was a strong believer in bail reform.

[1584] You know, that, you mentioned $1 ,000.

[1585] Amazingly, Eric Garner got set $1 ,000 bail once for, for something that wasn't even a misdemeanor.

[1586] Like, selling untaxed cigarettes is a violation.

[1587] It's like something you get a ticket for.

[1588] But he got a $1 ,000 bail for that.

[1589] That's outrageous.

[1590] So, again, but somebody who commits a violent crime.

[1591] So there's this whole.

[1592] galaxy of other people who get what they call like nuisance bail like in other words you know whether it's solicitation or you know disorderly conduct or vandalism or something like that what prosecutors have been they have this whole thing where they play games and they will try to get the judge to set bail just outside of the person's ability to pay right like and you know they do an assessment of you know, where you live, whether you have a job, whether you have a telephone in your house, all this stuff, they know roughly what you can afford when they go to ask for bail.

[1593] And, you know, it's kind of a wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing between the judge and the prosecutors.

[1594] And that's a really bad system.

[1595] That's why there were calls for bail reform, because what they were really doing was setting bail so high that people couldn't, they either had to make a decision to plead early, right, like, or sit in a place like Rikers Island and lose their jobs while they waited to adjudicate some really minor offense, right?

[1596] So there's a good reason for bail reform, but that doesn't mean that bail in all cases needs to be like eliminated, you know what I'm saying?

[1597] Like in really in cases where there's a violent crime, like that's what it's what it's four.

[1598] Right.

[1599] You know?

[1600] And it just...

[1601] Exactly.

[1602] That's a primary.

[1603] You can't paint it all with the same brush.

[1604] But I don't understand even the motivation of it.

[1605] I just, it's, it's like if you were a real tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist, you would think that someone is trying to destroy this country.

[1606] And someone's trying to destroy these cities and what's the best way to do it?

[1607] Well, the best way to do it is to let violent criminals run loose in the streets and have everybody freak out and then, you know, come up with a solution for it.

[1608] Yeah, a lot of the ideas that are coming out of, you know, what I used to consider, like, the liberal left or the Democratic Party, that almost seem to me like they're designed to lose votes, you know?

[1609] Like they're trying to give votes to the Republicans, who are, of course, equally crazy, like in their own way.

[1610] But, yeah, stuff like that, I don't even know where a lot of these ideas come from.

[1611] Like, I'm doing a story now about the Loudoun County, Virginia, education mess, and just a lot of the thinking there.

[1612] It's like, yeah, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me what a lot of us that are intellectual class of this country is, but just a lot of their ideas are just really strange these days.

[1613] make sense, but they're being supported.

[1614] Those ideas are supported by enough people.

[1615] There's enough people that believe in them that I don't think it really is they're trying to get the Republicans elected.

[1616] I think they think that this is progress.

[1617] And I think what you were saying earlier about how the kind of people that are calling for defunding the police don't really have police problems in their neighborhood.

[1618] They just have this idea that if they are for defunding the police, what they are for is the right side of criminal justice reform.

[1619] and that, you know, to be a progressive, you have to recognize there's systemic racism, it's the root cause of all these crimes, and those need to be addressed, and it's not just about locking people up in jail, which, you know, makes sense.

[1620] I really do think that there are root causes to all of these crime issues that we have in inner cities, whether it's Baltimore or the south side of Chicago or whatever, that if they don't address those problems, all the policing in the world is not going to fix it.

[1621] And it's going to take generations because you're dealing with people that have dealt with these crime -ridden gang -infested communities for decade after decade with no intervention whatsoever, no help.

[1622] No, I mean, we spend countless amounts of money going overseas and fixing other countries.

[1623] We don't do a fucking thing about horrendous inner -city conditions.

[1624] And when then we get confused as to why they continue to put out violent criminals.

[1625] Yeah, it's amazing because the same people who 10 or 15 years ago were trying to fix the cities through, essentially through brute force, right?

[1626] So these were the people who were doing the stop and frisk programs.

[1627] What they were really doing, mainly these were Democrats who were running these, they were, had all the important positions in all the big cities.

[1628] and their campaigns were funded by wealthy real estate developers mainly, right?

[1629] And they were using the police to imprison, you know, an arrest tens of thousands of people, casting a very wide net and trying to impose order that way.

[1630] Those programs didn't really work.

[1631] They caused a lot of instability.

[1632] They caused an incredible amount of resentment, and they resists.

[1633] resulted in a lot of these police brutality cases, and now they're swinging in another direction.

[1634] They're trying to take an opposite, but equally irrational approach to dealing with the problem.

[1635] So, you know, they try to solve it by shaking down, you know, 10 years ago is let's shake down every black person who walks into the wrong neighborhood in New York or more Philadelphia or Baltimore.

[1636] Now, somebody came up with a broad idea to, well, let's just completely not have police.

[1637] or defund that and, you know, put the money towards some other thing.

[1638] I think those ideas are a lot, in many cases, equally stupid.

[1639] And it's just an example of just intellectuals sometimes just shouldn't be allowed to make every decision, you know.

[1640] That's sort of an overriding theme in a lot of the stuff that I've covered over the years.

[1641] I just don't know how we bounce back from this.

[1642] It is amazing to me the impact of one man's death, the George Floyd death.

[1643] It's amazing because if you go from that point forward, and obviously it's accentuated by the pandemic, and there's a lot of buildup to it.

[1644] There's been many, many cases of police brutality that were egregious and people were frustrated and furious.

[1645] But that was the straw.

[1646] That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[1647] And the difference between the country the day before that happened and now is so stark that if you told me one death of a guy who was, you know, brutalized by the police and murdered in the way we all saw publicly is going to change the entire country, I would have said, how is that possible?

[1648] Well, I think at the time, the entire debate was turbocharged by the fact that Donald Trump was in office.

[1649] And this became, as everything did during the period, as hydroxychloroquine and the lab leak origin, everything is a referendum on Trumpism, right?

[1650] So if George Floyd is killed and Joe Biden as president, is the reaction going to be the same?

[1651] I kind of doubt it.

[1652] Like, I think at the time there was an incredible amount of tension in the country.

[1653] The culture war was just getting hotter and hotter all the time.

[1654] And we had been moving from kind of mania to mania in the news environment.

[1655] It was one thing after the other.

[1656] It was the caravan story.

[1657] It was kids in cages.

[1658] Brett Kavanaugh's nomination, Russia Gate.

[1659] Everything was a full -blown, massive panic.

[1660] And that was how everything was covered during the Trump years.

[1661] And, you know, I don't.

[1662] So I think that was a major factor.

[1663] and what happened with the Floyd story.

[1664] Like, it couldn't just be a police killing, and they couldn't just fix the problem, they couldn't just deal with that one person.

[1665] And they couldn't just look at sensible policy alternatives.

[1666] It had to be a referendum on the entire United States.

[1667] And whatever it was was wrong with the country that had led to Donald Trump being elected.

[1668] And, you know, sometimes, you know, things aren't, always necessarily, you know, symbolic of something larger, you know.

[1669] I don't know.

[1670] I think during the Trump years, there was a tendency to try to make panics out of everything.

[1671] And, you know, that's not always healthy.

[1672] I'm going to tell you something you're not going to like to hear.

[1673] Sure.

[1674] You know who your voice sounds like?

[1675] Uh -oh.

[1676] Who?

[1677] Elizabeth Holmes.

[1678] Oh, my God.

[1679] The Theranos girl.

[1680] doesn't it your voice sounds a little bit like her fake voice really yes wow I think if you toned it down a little bit have you like high pitched your voice just a little bit can I monetize that in any way I don't think so I think it's too late sorry that was a non -sacred I'm too old to be self -conscious about stuff but I got any way no you have a great voice it's just weird for a woman that's really funny.

[1681] Everybody's going to laugh about that.

[1682] Have you paid attention to that trial at all?

[1683] No, I haven't.

[1684] I'm fucking fascinated by it.

[1685] I am fascinated by charlatans.

[1686] I'm fascinated by people who pull the wool over incredibly rich people's eyes and hoodwinked them by it.

[1687] She had like, she fit this perfect narrative that they were looking for.

[1688] This billionaire, genius woman who's the boss lady of this company that, that, that's going to do groundbreaking new work on, you know, blood testing.

[1689] And it's going to revolutionize the industry and help everyone.

[1690] And she had this, you know, fake voice.

[1691] I'm fucking, I'm so fascinated by her.

[1692] I'm so fascinated by the story.

[1693] Yeah, it is a great story.

[1694] I love con man stories.

[1695] In fact, that's one of the reasons why I spent so many years covering the financial crisis.

[1696] also.

[1697] Some of your best work.

[1698] My favorite book growing up was about a comment.

[1699] It was this book called Dead Souls by a Russian writer named Gogol.

[1700] And it's about a guy who basically buys a bunch of dead serfs and mortgages them because there was a loophole in Russian law back then.

[1701] Like the census was so slow that if you bought the equivalent of a slave, the state bureaucracy, wouldn't know that that person was dead yet so you could you could go to a bank and mortgage your slaves and get cash for them essentially right so they got went around this sort of buying dead slaves but the the you know con men are fascinating right they and and especially in the in the internet age there's so many different ways to rip people off to scale that I think the authorities are just always going to be a couple of steps behind.

[1702] I mean, you look at everything from Bernie Madoff to the one MDB scandal in Malaysia, which was an unbelievable story, like, just basically, you know, stealing, you know, billions of dollars from investors around the world by representing, you know, a phony bond scheme.

[1703] It's just incredibly easy to do.

[1704] All you need to do is have the appearance of respectability.

[1705] And have a bunch of people who are respectful.

[1706] that have already bought into it.

[1707] Exactly.

[1708] That's the Bernie Madoff thing, right?

[1709] Right, right.

[1710] You've seen the sting.

[1711] Yes.

[1712] So that's what they call a big store con, right?

[1713] Where everybody you see looks like they're sort of a natural part in the environment.

[1714] But actually they've been put there for a reason to sort of mess with your perceptions of things.

[1715] And that's what happened with Theranos, with one MDB, with, you know, the subprime mortgage scan.

[1716] handles.

[1717] Everybody looked like they were on the up and up, but actually they were all in on it, you know.

[1718] And there's just a lot of really interesting ways to rip people off in this environment.

[1719] It's fascinating when someone like Bernie Madoff can get so many people.

[1720] And I always thought, really I always thought before I read your coverage of the banking crisis, I thought there were someone out there who is really clearly paying attention to all of the pieces that are moving and I thought it was like straightforward like a bad example maybe but like we understand how fast cars are because we know the engineers that have worked to develop the displacement and the engines and how the transmissions work and there's a clear trackable thing like you can't just come out with a car and say this car goes zero to 60 in and And one -tenth of a second, and everyone's like, what, what are you talking about?

[1721] Where's this, how is this being made?

[1722] And this new technology that no one's ever seen before, none of that exists.

[1723] We have new tires, and it works on gravity propulsion systems.

[1724] It doesn't even have anything to do with engines.

[1725] You would have to, it would be trackable, right?

[1726] Like an engine is trackable.

[1727] I thought finances were trackable.

[1728] You think it's funny.

[1729] Well, you think it's funny because you had to do a lot of research.

[1730] I did, yeah.

[1731] So pull that microphone in front of you a little bit more.

[1732] No worries.

[1733] So, Madoff was, he was part of what he was doing was he was operating on people's belief in a non -existent regulatory scheme.

[1734] We do have visibility into parts of the financial structure.

[1735] We have a pretty well -regulated stock exchange, for instance.

[1736] I mean, there are certainly problems there too, but you can see every trade more or less, Right?

[1737] Or you can see most of the trades.

[1738] Actually, I'm going to get in trouble saying that even.

[1739] But with Bernie Madoff, he didn't even do trades.

[1740] There's nobody checking.

[1741] Right, right, right.

[1742] And so there was an investigator, Harry Markopoulos, there was a guy sort of independently kind of figured out that there was something wrong with the situation.

[1743] And all Madoff was doing is this is a classic old school Ponzi scheme.

[1744] You guarantee a certain amount of returns.

[1745] Some people give you some money up front.

[1746] You take all that money.

[1747] And then as new people come in, you give the early investors a little taste as if those are investment returns.

[1748] Actually, all it is is just one big fungible pile of money.

[1749] And there's no investment.

[1750] There's no nothing.

[1751] It's just a con, right?

[1752] He never was doing any trading.

[1753] He wasn't doing anything.

[1754] He just had a big pile of money, and he was constantly bringing in new people.

[1755] But didn't he start off as an actual legitimate trader?

[1756] You know, that happens a lot, actually.

[1757] There are a number of people who start off trying to do it right.

[1758] No, I don't know if he actually was doing trades.

[1759] Like when he stopped doing that, I'm not sure.

[1760] But there are a number of stories about people who start off.

[1761] Like, their hedge funds don't really get checked, right?

[1762] So if you're running a hedge fund and you want to do it right, You have some kind of investment strategy you think is going to work.

[1763] So you get a whole bunch of high net worth people and you say, can you give me $500 ,000?

[1764] They all throw money in.

[1765] And you start investing and it doesn't work.

[1766] And then suddenly there's this temptation, well, I don't have to tell them.

[1767] You know, I can put out a report that says we actually earn 7 % or 14 % this year.

[1768] And no one's going to check because there isn't.

[1769] There isn't a body of the checks for that kind of investment.

[1770] So, yeah, I think the public doesn't know that there are all these sort of blank spots in the financial universe.

[1771] And then that's why these sort of cons proliferate.

[1772] And it's part of what I think is motivating things like GameStop.

[1773] But like that, you know, there's this whole crew of people who are like, you know what, this system is so corrupt.

[1774] we're going to we're going to rig it for ourselves and we're going to take some of these people down and that was why there was all this joy at you know blowing up a couple of hedge funds because you know the system is easy is minute it's you can manipulate it and they did it and that's that I think it was interesting what happened there yeah it is interesting and it's interesting the steps they took to sort of combat what these people were doing it's like no no no you can't use that loophole.

[1775] You can only use the loopholes that we're using.

[1776] Right, exactly.

[1777] But it was such a clearly organized campaign, like publicly organized campaign.

[1778] That's one of the things that made it so fascinating and that it was successful.

[1779] Well, yeah.

[1780] And, you know, the response by the authorities confirmed every suspicion of all these, the GameStop investors, but it didn't break them.

[1781] Like, they're still holding, you know what I'm saying?

[1782] And that whole phenomenon is.

[1783] is fascinating, actually.

[1784] Like, and that's another story that was massively misreported, right?

[1785] I talked to a lot of the people who invested in GameStop, and a lot of them were people who got ruined after the 2008 crash, whose families got ruined after the 2008 crash.

[1786] And this was their way of kind of getting revenge on the system.

[1787] It was a form of protest.

[1788] Now, for some people, it was just a way to make money, right?

[1789] And they thought they could just profit off this squeeze play.

[1790] But for a lot of people, this was like legitimately a political, you know, rage response.

[1791] And they didn't present it that way in the news media.

[1792] They presented it as, you know, a gang of sort of upper class people who were trying to, or middle class people were trying to manipulate the system for gain.

[1793] And they edited out the pain part of it that motivated a lot of these people.

[1794] My next -door neighbor lost everything in 2008.

[1795] Back when I lived in California, he had the property right next to mine, and he would show up.

[1796] There was nothing built on it, but he had bought this really nice property with a great view, and his dream was to build this dream home there.

[1797] and I would watch him like clear it off all the time and one day it just walked up and started talking to him and said when are you when are you going to build here and then he gave me the story that he lost everything in 2008 and he had had everything all set up and he was getting ready to build and now he would just show up and like trim the grass and he was so fucking sad yeah because he lost probably yeah he probably had his money tied up and morgan He lost everything.

[1798] He lost all of his life's work.

[1799] And here he was, I'm guessing he was in his 70s.

[1800] And then he stopped showing up, and then I got a hold of someone that I knew that knew him and he was suffering from some severe health problems and eventually wind up passing away.

[1801] So it's like this guy was just crushed by this.

[1802] just crushed.

[1803] And this is, when I'm talking to this guy's probably, we're talking like right afterwards.

[1804] Right.

[1805] It's like 2010.

[1806] Right.

[1807] Is somewhere like there.

[1808] But I remember the look in his eye when he was talking to me about what happened with the banking crisis and the crash.

[1809] And it was so depressing.

[1810] Because you should imagine if you put your faith in the system and you grinded your ass off for X amount of years and then you finally think you hit the, finish line and then all this fuckery takes all your earnings away everything gone nothing left so so imagine that story replicated like 15 million times or 20 million times or you know 25 million times yeah and it's it's all these people who've lost everything and not only have they lost everything they look on TV and they see that the people who did it got bailed out they got bailed out they got bailed immediately and, you know, we're made whole again that the wealth gap expanded after that.

[1811] Just to take an example, like we were talking about Bernie Madoff before.

[1812] Bernie Madoff's banker was J .P. Morgan Chase.

[1813] Okay.

[1814] So the bank, you know, which should have been monitoring whether or not their client actually had a legitimate business, you know, didn't.

[1815] You know?

[1816] It doesn't seem too much to ask.

[1817] Yeah, it doesn't seem.

[1818] Especially if it's their business.

[1819] Right.

[1820] It's not like a business they don't understand, like complex chemistry or something.

[1821] Right, exactly.

[1822] And we were talking about the big store con. Like, they're part of the con, right?

[1823] Like, this guy banks with J .P. Morgan Chase.

[1824] Right.

[1825] So it's part of the sales pitch.

[1826] Like, of course he's legitimate.

[1827] You know, it's endorsed by the biggest commercial bank in the country.

[1828] And I'm sure if you go to his office, it's gorgeous.

[1829] And you look at some beautiful building that he's in.

[1830] Right.

[1831] So all these people see that, you know, banks like Chase and Goldman that were selling these mortgage back securities to everybody, that were letting people like Bernie Madoff run wild, that were involved in the one MDB scandal in Malaysia that ripped off that entire country, and they see that they're continually bailed out.

[1832] Like, after the pandemic, the banks had their best year in history in, in 2020.

[1833] Yeah.

[1834] Because why?

[1835] Because when you have the CARES Act, you know, which is all that money from the Fed that went to rescue everybody to keep all these companies at business, somebody has to underwrite all that lending, right?

[1836] Right.

[1837] The Fed is basically lending all these, buying all these bonds.

[1838] There's all this new lending to companies that's coming from the government.

[1839] Well, some private entity has to do all that underwriting.

[1840] So banks made like $140 or $150 billion in profits just from underwriting in 2020.

[1841] So they all got rich off the bailouts for the pandemic, you know?

[1842] And so and which is exactly what happened in after 2008.

[1843] Not only do they get rescued for the actual crash, but the whole bailout, they got additional money for servicing the bailout.

[1844] Do you understand?

[1845] Yeah.

[1846] So people, when they ask, well, why does something like Trump happen?

[1847] It's because there's millions of people who look out there and say, I got, I got fucked, right?

[1848] Those people got rescued, and they don't know exactly why or how, but they know something must be wrong, you know?

[1849] And then somebody like Trump comes along and says, it gives them an explanation.

[1850] It makes more sense than what they're being told, you know.

[1851] And so they vote for that person.

[1852] And that's what's going to happen now because the same thing is happening, you know, out during the pandemic.

[1853] Like a lot of, once again, people are kind of struggling.

[1854] They're being ruined.

[1855] But the, you know, the 1 % is kind of being artificially sustained by this run of, you know, public support that's going to make them all rich, and it's just going to drive that resentment even further.

[1856] Well, it's also the collapse of small businesses, which is a big factor in this.

[1857] The big businesses like Target and Walgreens and Walmart, they expanded and they actually profited from the pandemic, whereas these other stores that were forced to close down, they were forced to not be open or to have extreme limitations.

[1858] they suffered greatly, restaurants in particular, right?

[1859] Absolutely, yeah.

[1860] And again, this is another classic consequence of a bailout.

[1861] Like after 2008, there was a thing called the implied bailout.

[1862] So just the fact that the public knows that the government is never going to let J .P. Morgan Chase or Goldman Sachs or Bank of America go out of business.

[1863] allows them to borrow money more cheaply than some local bank, right?

[1864] The government might let a local bank go out of business.

[1865] So when they go out into the open market to borrow money, it costs more.

[1866] Like the investors, the people who are lending them money are going to demand more.

[1867] They're going to demand more from that small bank than they're going to demand from Chase because they know that the government's never going to.

[1868] let them lose, go out of business.

[1869] They're not going to lose on that investment.

[1870] So it creates artificially an advantage for the big company versus the small company.

[1871] And that's what happened with the CARES Act.

[1872] Again, the market looks out at this and they say, okay, well, American Airlines is never going to go out of business.

[1873] Like, absolutely for sure, the government's going to step in and save them, they've demonstrated that now.

[1874] But maybe some smaller airline, they might let go out of business.

[1875] You know what I'm saying?

[1876] Yeah.

[1877] Spirit or something like that.

[1878] Yeah, exactly.

[1879] So it creates this natural tension.

[1880] And another thing that happened after 2008 was when they split up, when they took the failing companies, like Washington Mutual, rather than break them up into smaller parts so they could become independent small enterprises.

[1881] What they did is they folded them all into the big companies.

[1882] They got companies like Chase and Bank of America to buy up these smaller entities.

[1883] So they took an already concentrated marketplace and they made it more concentrated.

[1884] They made the big companies that were already too big to fail.

[1885] They made them even too big to failure.

[1886] You know what I'm saying?

[1887] So that's happening again.

[1888] And it's again, it's going to drive resentment.

[1889] And then you add the fact that kind of small business people tend to be the kind of people who are, you know, Republican Trump supporters who are being vilified, right?

[1890] And, you know, it's going to drive that resentment even further.

[1891] And we're only one year into this.

[1892] Right.

[1893] Yeah.

[1894] I mean, we're, it's 2021.

[1895] almost 2022.

[1896] What is this going to look like at 2023?

[1897] Right, right.

[1898] And what kind of a fever pitch is this country going to be in by then?

[1899] Well, I mean, how long can you, can you put people under pressure and not expect them to go nuts?

[1900] You know, I mean, like, I think a few people are going to look out, they're going to see what happened after the pandemic?

[1901] Well, you know, the banks had their best year ever, the pharmaceutical companies are making ungodly risk -free profits essentially, right?

[1902] Like the government is making sure that they will never have to compete or give up their patent protections on their vaccines.

[1903] They're going to buy every medicine that they produce at full price.

[1904] And Moderna made, what, $11 billion last year?

[1905] They're all having record records.

[1906] profit years.

[1907] The defense contractors got advances on all their contracts at the beginning of the pandemic.

[1908] So they're doing great.

[1909] But small businesses aren't.

[1910] Like, you know, it's, it's, they're rescuing the big enterprises and they're letting the small ones go, you know, it's capitalism for them and it's kind of socialism for everybody else for the big firms.

[1911] And that's just not going to hold forever.

[1912] It's also expanding the power that pharmaceutical drug companies have.

[1913] And the concern with that is like, it's not that pharmaceutical drug companies are inherently 100 % evil.

[1914] No, they produce drugs that are very beneficial to people.

[1915] And we all are better off because of them.

[1916] You know, there's drugs that help people with all sorts of diseases and all sorts of cures and great.

[1917] But all these corporations operate under the premise that every year is going to be better than the year before.

[1918] How the fuck do you do that when you have this insane windfall?

[1919] You have this insane year where you're making untold billions of dollars.

[1920] Like if somebody pointed out to me what Moderna's first quarter of what like a quarter of this year looks like, the difference between how much they made off the vaccines versus how much they made off of everything else and it's a giant percentage of the profit like yeah jambi maybe i think there are numbers for this quarter were like three point four billion i'm not i'm not sure it was something like that something crazy like that but more than three is a vaccine right it's something nutty like that mm -hmm but the point is you can't do that if they don't need them anymore like imagine of the vaccine to everybody.

[1921] There's no more need for a vaccine.

[1922] It's a one -shot deal like polio or like the measles.

[1923] And then all that profit goes away.

[1924] Well, you have stakeholders.

[1925] You have stockholders.

[1926] You have responsibility to your company.

[1927] You're supposed to have growth this year.

[1928] How come this year we're down 75 percent?

[1929] Well, sir, the pandemic's gone.

[1930] It's over.

[1931] No, no, no, no, no, no, we've got to figure out a way to make more money.

[1932] This is what corporations do.

[1933] And I'm not insinuating that they're going to start a pandemic or fake pandemic or come up with some reason why it's give people medication they don't need.

[1934] But this is a quality that corporations have.

[1935] Absolutely.

[1936] And forget about the vaccine for a minute.

[1937] Just look at other kinds of drugs, right?

[1938] Look at, you know, drugs like Adderall, right?

[1939] Suddenly, we start finding out that every kid in the country needs to be medicated for, you know, ADHD.

[1940] And, you know, that there are people trying to pass laws in various states that would mandate that as a treatment, you know, again, they have an incentive to try to create that market, right?

[1941] Or let's just say, you know, there's a drug that if you split it into two generics, it costs, you know, a dollar for people to use.

[1942] but there's a new drug on the market that combines both of them and costs $80 a dose or something like that.

[1943] They're going to be incentivized to try to get people to take that drug instead of the two separate generics.

[1944] Even though that's not good for the consumer, there's so many different ways that these companies kind of prey on people.

[1945] And this even removes from the equation the fact that a lot of their R &D is publicly funded.

[1946] You know, they get NIH grants and, you know, and in the case of the pandemic, they're, you know, they're specifically given significant amounts of taxpayer money to research into the vaccines.

[1947] And they're going to make all the profits from that.

[1948] It doesn't make any sense.

[1949] Not only that they have zero risk of ever being sued from side effects.

[1950] Right.

[1951] Yeah, exactly.

[1952] to remove the liability protection.

[1953] Which is fucking wild.

[1954] Right.

[1955] That is wild.

[1956] It's going to be fascinating to see just if you were objective, if you were an alien from another planet, you're observing these industries.

[1957] You'd be fascinating just to watch without any horror how they figure out a way to try to make as much money.

[1958] If this, like say if the virus goes away and, you know, whether it mutates into a form like what happened with the Spanish flu where it's not.

[1959] non -lethal and it gets to some new place where it's not what we have to worry about anymore.

[1960] Like the Omicron thing.

[1961] Right.

[1962] The Omicron thing, which seems to be no one has died from it so far.

[1963] Right.

[1964] And this is wild that they're trying to declaring a state of emergency in New York City for something that no one's died from.

[1965] It was really funny.

[1966] The headlines, they seem bummed about it.

[1967] Right.

[1968] Isn't that weird?

[1969] Yeah.

[1970] They do because, well, they're looking for fear.

[1971] but the what they're doing with pharmaceutical companies and advertising i want to play you this because i was watching this last night i was watching uh some fights and this came up and i i had to record it because i'm like this is one of the fucking wackiest things i have ever heard in my life listen to what they're saying are the side effects of this shit for adults with insomnia prescription it's about insomnia people that have that sounds good right reasonable seems reasonable what walking driving and making or eating food without remembering them the next day huh Vigo may cause the illness during the day it may cause temporary leg weakness or inability to move or talk while falling asleep or waking up worsening depression including suicidal thoughts may occur this is like a scene from airplane Hey, hey, hey, hey, why would I ask the healthcare divider?

[1972] He just told me I might not remember walking around.

[1973] I might not be able to move.

[1974] I might want to kill myself just because I can't sleep.

[1975] Oh, by the way, yeah.

[1976] Yeah, that's amazing.

[1977] But these ads are so crazy.

[1978] There's no other countries other than New Zealand that allow these ads.

[1979] They have beautiful music.

[1980] They have people that are happy.

[1981] You watch this video where this person, this ad, This lady's lying there sleeping and plants are growing around her.

[1982] It's all gorgeous.

[1983] It looks like the best drug experience ever.

[1984] It sounds amazing.

[1985] It sounds like finally I've got a solution to my insomnia.

[1986] But the idea that they're allowed to do this manipulative advertising on vulnerable people that are seeking some sort of a solution to whatever health problem they have is goddamn crazy.

[1987] Yeah.

[1988] And it bleeds into the coverage of everything.

[1989] Like during the pandemic, okay, fine.

[1990] Let's assume, just let's stipulate.

[1991] Like, I'm vaccinated.

[1992] Like, I believe the vaccine works.

[1993] You know, I got my booster shot and everything.

[1994] But the lack of curiosity in the press about questions like, do kids really?

[1995] need it?

[1996] Is it absolutely necessary for somebody who's like under 12 to have to have a vaccine?

[1997] What if you've already had the disease?

[1998] Like everything was off limits.

[1999] And this goes back to what we were talking about before.

[2000] It's like every story is all or nothing.

[2001] There's no in between anything.

[2002] You can't you can't even consider any of these questions.

[2003] And it makes it impossible to get to the bottom of things if you can't even start at step one and start looking at any of these questions?

[2004] Well, there's been a capture, right?

[2005] And there's been a pharmaceutical company capture of the narrative.

[2006] And that is that there are no therapeutics.

[2007] There is the vaccine.

[2008] The vaccine is your only way.

[2009] And they've even been instructed in many places to deny people certain effective therapeutics.

[2010] What is the same?

[2011] Okay.

[2012] But Pfizer Bioentech and Moderna are making $1 ,000 profit every second while the world's poorest countries remain largely unvaccinated.

[2013] And this is the thing because they are not willing to give up their patent to allow poor countries to produce the vaccine.

[2014] Right.

[2015] So they're...

[2016] Which incidentally puts the lie to all of the pandemic of the unvaccinated.

[2017] Right.

[2018] Like, if you really believe that, if you really believe that unvaccinated people are the cause of all the suffering, and shame on anybody who doesn't get the vaccine, then you would push for a patent waiver so that everybody else in the world, with whom you are connected, you know, the world is interconnected.

[2019] Yes.

[2020] If you really believe that, that is what you would do.

[2021] You would push for a patent waiver.

[2022] Instead, they are protecting the profits of these companies very quietly.

[2023] There's not a whole lot of controversy in the news media about whether or not the Biden administration is going to lean on these companies to give up their cash cow.

[2024] So they're allowing the companies to just rake in these billions of dollars.

[2025] and they villainize the people in this country who voluntarily don't get the vaccine.

[2026] Like, that's the problem.

[2027] Well, they've learned their lesson from Ivermectin because Ivermectin is now a generic drug, and that's one of the reasons why it's demonized, the fact that you can't, you don't, no one owns a patent on it.

[2028] You can make it's very cheap to make.

[2029] Now, coincidentally, Africa is one of the least vaccinated places on Earth and has the lowest numbers of cases.

[2030] It's fucking bonkers, and they don't know why.

[2031] They're trying to figure out why.

[2032] There's no real understanding of why Africa, I think Africa has like 6 % of its population has been vaccinated, but it has some of the lowest instances of COVID infection on Earth.

[2033] Right, right.

[2034] And why is that?

[2035] That would be interesting to know, right?

[2036] Well, there's a widespread use of Ivermectin because of river blindness and because of, I think they use it for yellow fever, I think for dengue.

[2037] I think it's used for other things as well.

[2038] And there's also a widespread use of hydroxychloroquine.

[2039] I'm not saying that that's the reason.

[2040] I mean, maybe it's some of these areas are not coming into contact, regular contact, the people from these countries that have high instances of infection.

[2041] I don't know what the fucking answer is, but it's kind of crazy.

[2042] Yeah.

[2043] And there are countries around the world that have approved it, Ivermectin as a treatment.

[2044] Japan.

[2045] Yeah, and I think there are a couple in South America, too, if I'm not mistaken.

[2046] They need real studies is what they need.

[2047] There's too many – there's a lot of messy studies out there, apparently.

[2048] When you talk to people that really understand the science behind it, there's something like there's too many different studies.

[2049] Some studies where they used it in prophylaxis or studies that used it early on.

[2050] There's studies that used it late term, which is clearly much less effective.

[2051] where it seems to have some potential is early on and in prophylaxis.

[2052] But again, there is no rock solid data.

[2053] Right.

[2054] But what I found fascinating, I had no idea when I took it, when I took it with all those other things that I took, that that one thing would be a big deal.

[2055] I really had no idea.

[2056] Yeah.

[2057] I thought I was just tell people, hey, I feel good already.

[2058] It's only been three days.

[2059] Right.

[2060] This is what I took.

[2061] And people would go, oh, well, you should have got vaccinated.

[2062] I expected that.

[2063] But what I didn't expect was this one particular drug to be the thing that was on everybody's radar.

[2064] Because I read off a laundry list of things.

[2065] I said monoclonal antibodies.

[2066] I said ZPAC, what was the steroid that I took?

[2067] There was a steroid.

[2068] Prednisone.

[2069] Thank you.

[2070] Ivermectin.

[2071] I said all these things.

[2072] I listed off everything.

[2073] I said IV vitamin drips.

[2074] I did all these different things that I took.

[2075] And I said I felt pretty good.

[2076] And a couple days later, I was negative.

[2077] So it was like it threw in the face, flew in the face of narrative that the only way to survive this was to be vaccinated.

[2078] Not only was it, not only did I survive, but I was better quick, like really quick.

[2079] Right.

[2080] And I was sick.

[2081] Like, it wasn't like I had like, it was, there was no symptoms.

[2082] I had symptoms.

[2083] I mean, I had a fever.

[2084] I was sweating like a pig in bed.

[2085] I knew I was sick.

[2086] And then a couple days later, I was better.

[2087] But all they chose to concentrate on is this one drug that is generic, which is wild.

[2088] And they sort of blatantly misreported it, you know, the horse dewormmer thing.

[2089] Well, the dumb part about it is that they think I wasn't going to say anything?

[2090] Yeah, I know.

[2091] Like, I have bigger audience than you do.

[2092] Like, what are you stupid?

[2093] Yeah, significantly.

[2094] Like, how dumb is that?

[2095] But I don't think they, I don't think they've internalized that yet.

[2096] No, but this is like, we were talking before about, not being embarrassed about getting stuff wrong, like, it's not that hard to, if you, if they, somebody wanted to criticize you and not get it wrong, they could have done it.

[2097] Yeah.

[2098] You know what I mean?

[2099] Sure.

[2100] But the, the whole thing like, oh, he's taking horsey -wormer, like, why is there know, why aren't they ashamed of just being factually incorrect?

[2101] Like, the lack of, you know, any kind of shame about that is a signal to audiences.

[2102] It gives you credibility and it takes it away from them.

[2103] I don't think they understood that, though.

[2104] I don't think they understood that while they were doing it.

[2105] I think they thought that they were going to get away with it.

[2106] And I think until Sanjay Gupta came on the podcast, they really had no idea.

[2107] right and then when he came on the podcast and it just didn't go so good for him that was that was a turning of the time that was a recognition like oh we've fucking played a terrible hand here right this is not good right so therefore we're never going to let anybody go on your show again I'm sure I'm sure there's going to be that I'm sure which is well I think they're probably going to clean house over there anyway I think what's going to happen at CNN now you know now that CNN is being run by different people.

[2108] I think they're going to, I think the Chris Cuomo thing is like one step.

[2109] I heard they're going to replace the entire cast with the view.

[2110] They're going to take all the girls from the view.

[2111] That's going to be the news now.

[2112] Would it be worse?

[2113] It would be better.

[2114] It'd be more entertainingly stupid.

[2115] I'm just kidding.

[2116] I hope they actually recognize that there is a market for objective journalism.

[2117] Well, yeah, I mean, that's abundantly clear.

[2118] I think the The sub -stack experience has been, it's been so fascinating for me. I thought it would work, but I had no idea that it would, that it's like this.

[2119] It would work the way it's working.

[2120] Yeah, like just the response is unbelievable.

[2121] And a lot of it is just, people are just so tired of being manipulated and talk to in a certain way.

[2122] Yes.

[2123] You know, they don't like being talked at, you know, or lectures.

[2124] by people who they don't even think are superior to them intellectually well they're not superior that's the whole point you know journalists used to know that we're not rocket scientists that's why we're in this business most of us flunked out of something real like law or medicine or whatever right we're like professional test cramers we we get an assignment we try to learn as much as we can about it in 36 hours and then we know we we tell you about it we're not that smart.

[2125] It's, you know, it's, it's, it's a tough job, you know, but it's, it's not like a hard intellectual discipline, but they are, they, they pontificate on the air and they pretend that they have this special access to special knowledge and that they're a level above, you know, the common run of people.

[2126] Which is ironically a sure sign that they're not smart.

[2127] Exactly.

[2128] Which is funny.

[2129] Like Don is a great example of that.

[2130] It's the surest sign that he's not smart is how smart he tries to pretend that he is.

[2131] And it's so transparent.

[2132] Yeah.

[2133] Right.

[2134] And I think that's one of the things that happens.

[2135] Like, you know, when Gupta came on your show, I mean, he's just a guy.

[2136] Like, he's not, he's not a bad guy necessarily.

[2137] He's a good guy.

[2138] Yeah.

[2139] I think he's a good guy.

[2140] Right?

[2141] But it's just, it's kind of a Wizard of Oz thing where, you know, they're trying.

[2142] to project this image of all knowingness and superiority, moral rectitude, infallibility.

[2143] But all they're really doing is telling people that they have a lack of humility and a lack of self -knowledge, you know.

[2144] Exactly.

[2145] And it's really unfortunate because, you know, it wasn't that long ago that people like Walter Cronkite were the most trusted people in the country, precisely because They kind of had this attitude of, you know, well, we're curious.

[2146] We don't really know, you know.

[2147] Like that was the way they presented the news back in the day.

[2148] Like, oh, that's interesting.

[2149] Let's tell you about this thing.

[2150] When did it shift?

[2151] I think it started with like my generation.

[2152] It started with the people after all the president's men came out.

[2153] Because before that, in my father's era, journalism was more like a trade.

[2154] You were more likely to be the son or the daughter, more likely the son.

[2155] It was almost all male back then.

[2156] But of an electrician or a plumber or something, like it was not something that upper class Ivy League kids went into once upon a time, like back in the 60s, 50s, 60s, 70s.

[2157] Then it became a sexy profession after all the president's men, after Watergate, everybody wanted to be Woodward and Burnton.

[2158] Bernstein, Hunter Thompson helped make it a little bit sexy, you know, Rolling Stone and all that, their coverage.

[2159] And it became a place for, you know, sort of upper class white kids to try to make their way.

[2160] It became a fashionable profession.

[2161] And I saw, you know, this sort of transformation because when I started covering presidential campaigns on the plane, and this was, back when presidential campaigns had planes full of journalists.

[2162] They don't have that anymore.

[2163] Like now there's only a couple who followed the people around.

[2164] Everybody's doing it by wire service reports now for the most part.

[2165] What did it used to be like?

[2166] So you would have like if you were following John Kerry in 2004, which I did, you would have Kerry and the aides would be up in like the equivalent of the first class section and the entire back of the plane would be media, right?

[2167] And, you know, 80, 90, 100 reporters, you know, a couple of, you know, some of them would be camera people, some of them would be tech people.

[2168] But what was so interesting for me is there was a mix on the plane.

[2169] Some of them were sort of the old hands who had been doing this since the 70s.

[2170] And they were much more kind of skeptical.

[2171] They were much more likely to look at politicians like they're all pieces of shit.

[2172] I don't really care.

[2173] Like in both parties, I don't believe anything they say, but I'm going to sort of report it.

[2174] Like that's my job.

[2175] But this newer generation, the younger generation, they were so excited by, they were jazzed by the proximity to an important person, you know.

[2176] And I think it was symbolized by something like primary colors.

[2177] You remember that movie?

[2178] Yes.

[2179] So, you know, that was written by a journalist, Joe Klein.

[2180] Originally, it was anonymous, but, you know, who had a close relationship with somebody on the Clinton campaign.

[2181] And that became kind of the model of what campaign journalism was all about.

[2182] Like, you were an insider.

[2183] You were somebody who was in the know behind the rope line with the campaign.

[2184] And that was what everybody wanted.

[2185] They wanted to be like one of those people.

[2186] like who got the secret, who knew in advance what the candidate was going to say.

[2187] You know, and whereas the older grouchy types were the ones who were trying to bust the candidate for something, you know, or trying to catch him in a lie or trying to figure out who was actually, you know, funding the campaign or, you know, that kind of thing.

[2188] And so that was where I think the different start.

[2189] I think it started in the 90s and in the early 2000s, and now it's like 100%.

[2190] Like all those old types are gone.

[2191] Yeah, it's depressing.

[2192] Wow.

[2193] All of them.

[2194] I remember in fear and loathing on the campaign trail, Hunter S. Thompson was talking about how he had freedom because he wasn't coming back.

[2195] And so many of these guys were coming back.

[2196] And so they had to sort of like follow some protocol or follow some rules.

[2197] And, you know, he did.

[2198] Like when he was pretending that Hubert Humphrey was on drugs.

[2199] Right.

[2200] Yeah, making up fact that a Brazilian doctor had come to work on him, like, he had this freedom to do that they didn't have.

[2201] And he had a freedom to look at it honestly, to look at it the way he thought the fuckery was.

[2202] Yeah, and you should always, as a journalist, you should never expect to retain your friends because you will eventually have to write something negative about somebody who you've become friends.

[2203] with.

[2204] So if you go into this business to be socially successful, you're in the wrong business.

[2205] You should be comfortable being a loner.

[2206] Or only have friends with people that, you know, follow the sort of morals and ethics that you do.

[2207] Right.

[2208] Yeah.

[2209] That is possible, isn't it?

[2210] It is possible.

[2211] But for the most part, if you're trying to be friends of people you're covering, it's not going to work.

[2212] Right.

[2213] And so what's, what's, what's, what's, regrettable, but now is a lot of the people who are in journalism, they're upper class, they are socially the same people that they're reporting on, whereas there used to be much more of a class difference.

[2214] You never had a phenomenon before.

[2215] Well, it was much more rare before to have a situation, especially in local journalism, where, you know, the reporter was somebody who saw himself or herself as being, like, traveling in the same circles as the mayor or a senator or the CEO of a company.

[2216] Like, you know, they just didn't really mix like that.

[2217] So they were outsiders who were who were reporting.

[2218] and they didn't really mind offending people because what the fuck, they're not my friends.

[2219] But these people are all friends.

[2220] Like Rachel Manow and Democratic Party politicians, they're friends.

[2221] Have you ever seen a video of Chuck Schumer and Stephen Colbert dancing together?

[2222] Oh, God, I can't even imagine.

[2223] You need to see it.

[2224] Do we have time?

[2225] You need to see it.

[2226] You need to see them dancing together.

[2227] And I feel the same way about comedians that you do about journalists.

[2228] You know, like, you can't be friends with those people because there's going to come a time where you have to talk shit about them.

[2229] Dennis Miller ran into that with George Bush.

[2230] I remember being incredibly disappointed because I was a Dennis Miller fan.

[2231] As a comic, he was a very good comic.

[2232] You know, his HBO special was brilliant.

[2233] He had some great shit, great jokes, great one -line.

[2234] Absolutely.

[2235] But then he said he was going to give George Bush a pass because he's his friend and he wouldn't make fun of him.

[2236] Look at this.

[2237] Chuck Schumer's get the mask on and look at Colbert, no mask.

[2238] Spreading, spreading pandemic viruses.

[2239] Look, he's dancing.

[2240] High -fiving and dancing with Chuck Schumer.

[2241] What is this?

[2242] What kind of signaling is this?

[2243] Can you imagine Bill Hicks fucking dancing with a senator?

[2244] Jesus Christ.

[2245] Well, Colbert was never really a stand -up.

[2246] So, I mean, I guess he has that.

[2247] No, but I mean, but he was a comic when the Colbert Report was on.

[2248] I mean, he was, that was hilarious.

[2249] It was really good.

[2250] He was great.

[2251] Yeah.

[2252] He was great.

[2253] And that show was a great takeoff of a fucking pompous, ridiculous Republican.

[2254] Exactly.

[2255] I mean, it was fucking really good.

[2256] And then when you see this, you're like, wait a minute.

[2257] What the fuck?

[2258] What are you doing?

[2259] Right.

[2260] The fuck are you doing?

[2261] Or, and why were you doing?

[2262] the other thing before like right was it was it to be to do this well i think what happened what and i'm just going to guess but i think what happened was he had this brilliant character it was amazing on the daily show then he does the colbert report it's amazing there it's a great show right and then they offer him the fucking carrot what's the carrot the carrot's a late night talk show right and the late night talk show for i guess kind of my generation was the thing that everybody wanted Kimmel and Fallon and all these guys like you got to host the ton night show or your or Jimmy Kimmel's got his own show you got your own show you got the Letterman show you got the this show that show that that was the thing man right you could get your own show like that like you were fucking in if they offered it to you took it right took it but then to be that show guy he has to be a different guy so now he's not Colbert from the show was this genius parody.

[2263] Now he's just Stephen Colbert.

[2264] Right.

[2265] Who he is.

[2266] They destroyed the essence by giving him something.

[2267] The best example of it was when John Stewart came on.

[2268] And John Stewart was doing that bit about the Lab League theory.

[2269] And Colbert is jumping in and stepping all over it.

[2270] Right.

[2271] I'd like to see some evidence of that.

[2272] He's like, fucking up the bit.

[2273] Clearly, Stuart, who is a great comic, is in the middle of a bit.

[2274] Right.

[2275] Yeah.

[2276] And Colbert's trying to, he's like, you can see the panic in his eyes.

[2277] This is not going along with the narrative.

[2278] So he's like, he's hamstringing the bit.

[2279] Right.

[2280] Which is crazy to see.

[2281] Yeah, because his whole body is like physically mortified by the idea that he's sending off the wrong signals now.

[2282] He is the boss of this show.

[2283] And the show is going to allow this, this wild, reckless talk about the lab leak.

[2284] You know, it's a great story that's like sort of apropos to all this is, um, In Seymour Hersh's book, it's his memoir, reporter, there's a story about how in the early 90s, the CIA wanted everybody to know that they had caught, I think it was an Israeli spy.

[2285] And so they called up Hirsch because Hirsch was the biggest, you know, investigative reporter in the country.

[2286] and they invited him in and they said look we're going to show you all this material right and they brought him into a room and they just gave him a whole packet of stuff right but he couldn't like his entire body rebelled he's like I had spent my whole life getting the things I could not be handed the things you know what I mean because it's just not in his nature right like to be you know to be spoon fed right and like I think that's true with comics with any kind of journalist like once once you start getting you know handed things then then you're you've lost yeah I mean they have you at that point and you got to get out of that habit you know it's like or you just never you can't cross that line you can't cross that line you can't but if you want to be on a talk show you have to cross that line there's no other way you get on that show you can't get on that show and have some real counterculture narrative that is not approved and sanctioned and you spit it out there on NBC for the masses.

[2287] When was the last talk show that was, that had like a counterculture, I mean, Letterman in the 80s, maybe a little bit?

[2288] Yeah, Letterman.

[2289] Well, Letterman was rebellious.

[2290] I don't know if he was counterculture, but he was certainly rebellious and certainly the favorite of the people that weren't taking it all seriously, the people that wanted the tongue and cheek jabs at the celebrities and you know whereas like j leno was letting everybody on and oh you're hilarious oh that's great that's awesome right there was no no attacking letterman would you know mock you and you were in on he was in on the joke i remember when um you know my father used worked for nbc and when uh the uh the tech workers nabit the union when they went on strike uh and NBC brought in a bunch of scabs to cross the picket line and do all their work for them.

[2291] Letterman used to get them to screw up basically.

[2292] Like in other words the cameras would like go back and forth so he was taking a dig at management which was kind of cool like you know I thought that was an interesting thing.

[2293] Did you do it on purpose and tell them to fuck up?

[2294] Yeah exactly right that is funny.

[2295] That is funny.

[2296] Well he was a very smart guy.

[2297] Yeah.

[2298] And you know a funny guy like the funniest of all those if you If you go back and look at, like, the guys who have hosted talk shows and were really funny at it, he's the best.

[2299] Yeah.

[2300] I think he's the best.

[2301] I think he's the best talk show host of all time.

[2302] I love that he was a weatherman before he did the talk show.

[2303] I think he didn't he get in trouble for predicting hailstones the size of canned hands?

[2304] That sounds like a level thing to say.

[2305] I hope that's a true story.

[2306] Yeah.

[2307] Yeah, he's, it's interesting because his net.

[2308] Netflix thing didn't it wasn't the same it seemed it just wasn't it was just didn't feel the same well I mean you know apart from you and Chappelle like who's doing sort of I don't know I mean like the the comedy scene to me I don't know it just seems like sort of network television there's nothing funny there a network television but in the clubs it's one of the best times ever is it really yeah there's a lot of daring motherfuckers out there bill burr who's one of the best of all time he's he's phenomenal and he's he's killing it right now he's fighting it you know he's not giving into it at all he's fighting it and there's there's a lot of guys like that out there now there's guys coming up like tim dillon andrew shultz you know uh mark norman Shane Gillis, there's a lot of funny, fucking young guys that are coming out that are dedicated to real stand -up.

[2309] The way, there's a lot of people out there that are dedicated to be in journalists and they're just trying to find their way through and they really respect real journalism.

[2310] They don't want to be a corporate hack, they want to be a real journalist.

[2311] There's a lot of comics like that.

[2312] That's great.

[2313] I mean, and they must be real, the stupider and more restrictive this environment gets, the better the audience response must be.

[2314] Yes.

[2315] Oh, it's phenomenal.

[2316] It's really incredible.

[2317] It's incredible to see because, you know, I work with all these guys.

[2318] We do clubs together and we do shows together and to see the response to this, you know, risky material.

[2319] Like all Dave's stuff, the stuff that got him canceled, air quotes, you know, like my god was he murdering.

[2320] I mean, murdering.

[2321] We did a series of shows together.

[2322] And he's fucking, he's one of the greatest of all time.

[2323] And also being attacked.

[2324] but it's you can't comedy can't be safe it's not possible right it can be safe with some jokes but like in its entirety it's not going to be safe and the comics that are like real recognize that and they also recognize that we got to stay together we got to stay together and we're going to help each other because the more we support each other the more we get through this the more the audience realizes like oh this is what they do this is not like they're not in court giving affidavits on their viewpoint.

[2325] They're trying to say funny things.

[2326] Right.

[2327] And in doing so, you're going to cover very controversial topics and you're going to say things that are outrageous to say.

[2328] But that's the point.

[2329] And occasionally you're going to say something that is a miss, right?

[2330] Yes.

[2331] Oh, all the time.

[2332] All the time.

[2333] That's the only way you find out if it hits.

[2334] When you're, especially when you're working the clubs, the whole idea is like, I'll do a joke away and as I'm doing it, I'm like, I got to get out of this.

[2335] Like, this is not the right way to do this.

[2336] do it the wrong way.

[2337] I'm saying it away.

[2338] I'm taking a chance and I'm going down a dark alleyway and I hit a dead end.

[2339] Right.

[2340] I got to figure out, I got to get out of this.

[2341] And this is part of the process of creation because you really only create comedy.

[2342] You write in silence alone, but you create it really with the audience's involvement.

[2343] And you never really know how it's going to go over.

[2344] You don't.

[2345] You don't know.

[2346] You have ideas.

[2347] You know, you kind of get it.

[2348] You know how to do But you really don't fucking know until you're there.

[2349] And if someone takes a little snippet of that and tries to take, particularly if they take a snippet of that and they put it in quotes.

[2350] Right.

[2351] You know, it's like, you're, you know, that's not what it is.

[2352] Like, you're pretending that this is a real opinion.

[2353] This is comedy, you know?

[2354] Just like Bob Marley didn't really shoot the sheriff.

[2355] Right.

[2356] Yeah, this is not real.

[2357] And that's...

[2358] And if you take away the ability to screw it up, like it robs its essence, basically.

[2359] Well, we use yonderbags now for a lot of shows, which, which helps that, because everyone's phones are locked up.

[2360] They don't, they're not like, because everyone just wants to film everything now, which is bad for the experience watching it.

[2361] Just take it in.

[2362] Just like you take in everything else in light.

[2363] Like, we have to learn to take things in and enjoy the moment.

[2364] So, I mean, I went to see the Stones recently, and I'm guilty of it too, because I took a couple pictures and some video, but I'm like, God, I need to just take this in.

[2365] How many times am I get to see Mick Jagger and Keith Richards alive on stage jamming?

[2366] and it'll have it be really good.

[2367] Keith Richards hasn't looked alive since like 1972, but anyway...

[2368] He's moving, though.

[2369] He's animated.

[2370] No, that's great.

[2371] So listen, man, we learned a lot today.

[2372] We learned that those Patriot fucks might be real.

[2373] I think we learned that.

[2374] Are they?

[2375] I don't know, man. I think there's some involvement.

[2376] I think there's some involvement.

[2377] I'm suspicious.

[2378] I'm suspicious of their outfits, but we learned they might be real.

[2379] We learned that your voice sounds like Elizabeth Holmes a little bit.

[2380] That is amazing.

[2381] I can't wait to tell my wife.

[2382] You know, it's really when you have the mic.

[2383] in the wrong place.

[2384] Oh, okay.

[2385] You bring it to your neck.

[2386] Do I sound like liquor now?

[2387] Yes.

[2388] You sound more liquor now.

[2389] It was more like when the microphone was...

[2390] These mics are weird.

[2391] Like, they have to be like right in front of your face.

[2392] And if they're here, they give you like sort of a subtlety to the way you're talking.

[2393] And then you sound like a little bit of old.

[2394] So I sound like a female corporate con artist if I...

[2395] No, you only sound like that one.

[2396] Because you can't, it's like, you know, like you can't say that any man sounds like Sam Kinnison other than Sam Kinnison.

[2397] you can't say that any female sounds like a list she doesn't even sound like her you know that's a that's how you know that's part of the reason why she got busted was that friends from college like what the fuck is that girl talking like that for oh my god so it's like the unabomber thing like somebody who knew her exactly people who knew her from college were like what is going on with her voice what is this what is this thing you're doing um see that's a lesson never have you know if you're going to be going to crime don't have friends in college or like start the shit early right in high school and they come up with like a lacrosse injury for why you're uh she got hit with a high speed ball to the neck and that's the damage your vocal cords um listen thank you very much for everything you do i thank you i really appreciate that you're out there it means it means a lot not just to me but to a lot of people that you are a legitimate objective source of information And it means a lot.

[2398] It's so, so important.

[2399] Likewise, I can't tell you how much it makes me laugh that your viewership is so much more massive than the news stations.

[2400] I just get a kick out of that.

[2401] It's confusing.

[2402] I have no idea how it happens.

[2403] I'm really baffled.

[2404] I'm not kidding.

[2405] Like, every week when it's still number one, I'm like, still.

[2406] Crazy.

[2407] I don't know what the fuck happened.

[2408] There's no plan behind this.

[2409] That's what's so bizarre about it.

[2410] Right.

[2411] But it's hilarious.

[2412] Wow.

[2413] Thank you.

[2414] No, no, I mean that in the good way.

[2415] Oh, I do too.

[2416] Yeah, yeah.

[2417] Yeah, I find it hilarious too.

[2418] Yeah.

[2419] It is.

[2420] It's like, okay.

[2421] Your substack, tell people how to get to it.

[2422] Yeah.

[2423] Taibi.

[2424] Substack .com.

[2425] Spell Taibi for people don't know how to.

[2426] T -A -I -B -B -B -I.

[2427] And then you are, what is it, M -T -E -B on Twitter.

[2428] Yeah.

[2429] And do you have an Instagram as well?

[2430] God, I don't even know it.

[2431] Okay.

[2432] I'm barely on it.

[2433] So it's really just those two things.

[2434] Taubi .b .subsec .com.

[2435] And, yeah.

[2436] And thanks for having me on.

[2437] My pleasure.

[2438] Anytime.

[2439] Open invitation.

[2440] Appreciate you.

[2441] Thank you.

[2442] Bye, everybody.