We are supported by... Kim Kardashian West

[0] We are supported by is brought to by Chevrolet.

[1] Find New Roads.

[2] This was a fun day.

[3] Wow.

[4] Big day.

[5] Big, big, big, big day for us.

[6] You've been in touch with KKW.

[7] Yes, I have and I have always secretly, in my heart, wanted to tell everyone how lovely I thought she was because there are a lot of things people can say about women when they present themselves in a certain way.

[8] or when they don't.

[9] People come to conclusions about people, but more specifically, people come to conclusions about women.

[10] And this particular woman has been so thoughtful and forthright in my life.

[11] There have been a couple times where I have had lawyer friends be working on death row cases where the person clearly did not do it and or have served way more their time, like just those injustices in the justice system.

[12] And every time I have reached out, she has responded within five minutes and said, who can I call?

[13] What doors can I open?

[14] And she has taken a personal interest in all of these cases.

[15] And I just, it speaks to her really, really good heart.

[16] But she's not just a goodhearted person.

[17] She's also an American media personality.

[18] She is a model, a businesswoman, a producer.

[19] And her name is Kim Kardashian West.

[20] That's right.

[21] And I will say, speaking to her character and what you said about her philanthropic ideals.

[22] Also, you know, we were on vacation, me and you.

[23] And I was like, you know, I really would be amazing that we could get.

[24] We're like throwing like pie in the sky ideas for who we could have on this podcast.

[25] And I was like, it would be so awesome if we could get Kim on.

[26] And I was like, there's no like way.

[27] And you were like, well, let me see.

[28] And then you texted or DM'd her something.

[29] And literally within five minutes, you were like, oh, she said she'll do it.

[30] I was like, wait what like she just so open when she does not have to be she does not have to be and I have to say every single experience I've ever had with her she is a good hearted human being yeah and I'm grateful that she said yes and I'm also happy because it feels like to me there was a level of trust of I said like look we're not we're here to talk about accomplishments and failures as women and we want to be good to you and we want to tell your story and she was like oh of course I'll be a part of that.

[31] I want to tell my story for other women and just talk about what my goals were, what I've done, why I've done it.

[32] She was so incredibly open.

[33] And the thing that every time I interact with her that I love so much about her and hate about myself is that she is like the antithesis of a virtue signaler.

[34] Big time.

[35] Big time.

[36] Like this whole interview you'll hear, they're very specific words.

[37] When I talk, I'm nauseated by how often I'm saying phrases that could just make you puk like, Save the world and help people be of service, which are all great ideas.

[38] They are.

[39] Once you say them more than a couple times, it's like, all right, we get it.

[40] Let's watch your feet in action.

[41] Stop talking about it.

[42] She doesn't use phrases like that.

[43] She literally just does stuff.

[44] Yeah.

[45] She doesn't ask for credit.

[46] She doesn't even talk about it.

[47] Some of the stuff she's done on the cases that I've brought to her, the death row cases, have been monumental and not a single media player has covered it.

[48] Of course.

[49] They're too busy covering her eating a cheeseburger.

[50] Right.

[51] Or her eyelashes that week or something.

[52] And I'm just sort of like, damn it, we're doing it all wrong.

[53] And this woman deserves a lot of credit.

[54] She's also an incredible business mind.

[55] I hope people do not deny that.

[56] There's just no questioning it.

[57] No, because if you're even considering like, well, what can she offer me in this?

[58] Your mind's about to be blown.

[59] There are so many things she told us during this interview that blew the lids off our cranium.

[60] And to say nothing of the fact that we love skims.

[61] She has designed the best underwear line in the history of the world.

[62] It's such a good underwear line.

[63] It's so good.

[64] And Cozy's line.

[65] And I mean, that's just like a side note.

[66] We're both completely obsessed with it.

[67] And I get really pissy when the sizes I need are sold out.

[68] Oh, it comes up.

[69] It does.

[70] It had to bring it up.

[71] I'm asking hard -hitting questions.

[72] But also, if you really think about her, She designed undergarments because she cares about the way women feel.

[73] Yeah.

[74] That's what that's telling me, right?

[75] You want to feel good in comfort and you want to feel sexy sometimes in the shape and the, also the sizes.

[76] Yeah.

[77] They make from like X, X, X, S to like 4 or 5X.

[78] And colors.

[79] And the shades.

[80] Yeah.

[81] No other company has ever done as many shades.

[82] And we talk about all this.

[83] I just, these are all details that I want people to.

[84] remember when they're thinking about her so that it will obliterate any image you think you have of her because you don't really know her.

[85] So we are supported by Kim Kardashian West.

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[89] Dax is completely addicted to it.

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[91] Whether I'm just like running around with the kids or whether I'm going to work out or whether I'm lazy all day, I just feel brighter and more awake.

[92] And I think it's because my body is getting those greens.

[93] More energy, for sure.

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[100] First of all, I am so sorry that I am so late.

[101] I've been late to something one time in my life, and this is the second time.

[102] So I just want you guys to know that is not my style, and it has ruined my entire day.

[103] Oh, no, do not let it.

[104] We could care less.

[105] We feel honored that we're the second ones, and as a person who is perpetually late, And I recently switched from saying, I'm sorry, I'm late to thank you for waiting for me. But still, I'm like, I feel your pain.

[106] That's a good one.

[107] I do it all the time.

[108] And I hate it all the time.

[109] With the kids, I get it.

[110] I don't know how I'm on time with kids.

[111] I leave my kids.

[112] I'm like, if you guys aren't on time, I'm leaving you because I won't be late.

[113] It's hard.

[114] I've recently had this revelation because I used to really hate when people were late because I just took it as an offense, like personal offense, which of course I made it about myself.

[115] And I'm like, they don't care about my time.

[116] This is so frustrating.

[117] And then in the past like three months, I've been late to everything, absolutely everything.

[118] And I'm like, oh, it's not that.

[119] I do think it is like a disrespectful thing for time because everyone's so busy.

[120] And on keeping up with the Kardashians, I was late for the intro, just like running in just a few minutes.

[121] And someone yelled, Kim is always late.

[122] And so everyone thought I was late.

[123] for the last like 15 years and I was definitely the one that was there on time and that pissed me off so badly.

[124] Guess what?

[125] We just dispelled that rumor.

[126] Seriously.

[127] You're not late.

[128] Wait, first of all.

[129] I'm not late.

[130] Did you know that Lily did my nails yesterday?

[131] You know the nail text?

[132] I love Lily.

[133] She did my nails last.

[134] I've never been, can you even see this?

[135] I've never been this woman before.

[136] They're like an oval.

[137] Baby, they're an oval.

[138] First of all, I've never had like long nails in my life.

[139] And also they've got like pastel tips.

[140] And I am loving this woman.

[141] I've never been her before, but I think I'm her now.

[142] I just wanted to show.

[143] Yeah.

[144] I love Lily.

[145] And they probably hate me because I only do short nude nails.

[146] It's like I go between a peachier nude, a pinkier nude, a white nude.

[147] And that's it.

[148] Maybe every once in a while I get crazy and do an opaque nude.

[149] And they hate me because I'm so boring.

[150] Well, Lily really bossed me around, which I love, because I love when a strong women like is like, no, you have to think outside the box because I was like, Lily, aren't these like too long?

[151] You saw my nails before and like, she goes, I'm not filing them anymore.

[152] And I was like, oh, oh my God, okay.

[153] Let's go.

[154] You do love a bossy woman.

[155] I love a bossy woman.

[156] Wait, this has just reminded me of something immediately that is relevant.

[157] I think the perception of you is so different than the reality of you.

[158] Like, the reason you showed her these, you know, if we're just going to get honest, is because you were like assuming that she would have nails like that.

[159] Yeah, or because she's fancy.

[160] Well, the reality is because Lily also does her nails.

[161] Of course.

[162] But yes, but then she points out like, oh, yeah, we have the same nail technician, but I don't do that kind of thing.

[163] And that is a great point.

[164] Just like the perception versus the reality for you, I think is so off balance.

[165] Yeah.

[166] I do think it is really off balance.

[167] But wait, I feel like I like I feel like I have been doing a long, clear nail, like every once in a while.

[168] I go back and forth, back and forth.

[169] But then I have to type because I'm in school.

[170] So, like, if I have to do exams and stuff, I have to take them right off.

[171] And then I put them right on and to type, it's a disaster.

[172] So I do, every once in a while, do a long nail.

[173] Still nude, though.

[174] Yeah.

[175] Still nude.

[176] It is pretty fun.

[177] We, I just want to come out with a really hard -hitting question first, because I want to get this over with.

[178] And I don't mean to make you uncomfortable.

[179] why the hell are the kids' skims always sold out?

[180] Hmm, yeah.

[181] Okay.

[182] Are they really?

[183] Always.

[184] Well, I will make sure that we send some to you guys.

[185] I didn't want to start it off on a negative note because that is not why we're here.

[186] Perception versus reality.

[187] I do feel that.

[188] It used to bother me more.

[189] And now I'm just like focused on living my life that I don't really care about perception.

[190] And I think that comes with just experience and age to where you just don't care.

[191] I think a lot of the experiences in life that I have had, like I used to care so much about so many more things in this business and in this life that I just genuinely don't have the energy for like I used to.

[192] But there are.

[193] I mean, there's so many misconceptions.

[194] I think when people meet me, they always, whether it's, oh my gosh, you're so small in person or, oh, you know, whether it's like a physical thing or you're so short or, oh, wow, like you're smart or articulate or whatever they want to say, it's always some kind of funny comment.

[195] Which also only speaks to the fact that they are admitting they have previously come to a conclusion about you prior to meeting you.

[196] And that is because you're very much in the media.

[197] Like, I mean, a lot of people are.

[198] It's not like you're in any more.

[199] Like, you may get more coverage because people have somehow decided that you sell more for their media company.

[200] So they cover you.

[201] But like, that's not on you.

[202] or the one thing that I notice a lot is it'll say like Kim Kardashian's best friend and it'll talk about someone or a story that has my name in it where I'm like, I haven't talked to this person or I don't know that person or like Kim Kardashian lookalike says did it a completely different story.

[203] And I'm like, what?

[204] Like just because they have brown hair, it's now a lookalike.

[205] It's like a running joke between me and one of my friends.

[206] Just like how many times can they use my name with a story that has absolutely nothing to do with me. Yeah.

[207] It's almost a game.

[208] Their stuff.

[209] They're using it because it would be, it's clickbait.

[210] And the more people that realize those things are clickbait and that you have to read a headline with like a modicum of intellect, it's important to constantly point that out.

[211] Yeah.

[212] I very much try not to have perceptions about anyone because I have had that experience a thousand times where I've then run into someone.

[213] I've been like, oh, they were so different.

[214] And I thankfully have never said that out loud.

[215] But then I think on, I'm like, they weren't so different.

[216] That was my first.

[217] experience with that person.

[218] Every other experience has been something that was crafted that I was exposed to.

[219] But with you, we have some mutual friends.

[220] And because we care about a lot of the same causes, I will like love to scream this from the rooftop.

[221] I have DM'd you a couple times because I love criminal justice reform.

[222] And one of my best friends is a lawyer who works on a lot of death row cases of people that genuinely shouldn't be there.

[223] 16 year old was in the car when something terrible happens.

[224] Now he's 40 and being put to death.

[225] And it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, guys.

[226] And every single time I DM you and I'm like, hey, I'm not sure if you'll read this, but there's this guy or girl and my friend is working on the case.

[227] Is there anything you think you could do?

[228] You have responded like four times within five minutes and been like, give me the number of the lawyer working on the case.

[229] I will make a call about it this afternoon.

[230] And every time you do, I'm like, God damn, she is a stand -up woman.

[231] Yeah.

[232] So kind.

[233] The strongest moral compass.

[234] And I wish people knew that that's who you are as a human being.

[235] Oh, thank you.

[236] You actually have introduced me to some of the most fascinating people, some of the best attorneys that I've learned so much from.

[237] We've been able to be successful in certain situations and be unsuccessful in certain situations, but those unsuccessful cases that have been execution cases really have changed my life and I think changed the perception of a lot of people out there.

[238] I mean, Brandon Bernard, I was really public about his.

[239] case, you brought that to me. And people ask me, like, how do you get involved in a case?

[240] And sometimes it's seeing something on the internet.

[241] Sometimes it's through friends.

[242] I mean, you bringing that to me, I really wanted to see what I can do.

[243] And first of all, I just learned so much about myself.

[244] And I always say, like, I wish that people would have seen my day that day.

[245] I learned so much about the system.

[246] I learned so much about humanity that day.

[247] I mean, I was in my bathroom.

[248] and I was making calls to governors all over and trying to figure out who we can get to support this, trying to talk to every attorney having Brandon Bernard's last conversation, phone conversation with him, was my call.

[249] And so I'm sitting there bawling.

[250] And he's telling me not to cry.

[251] And I'm just like trying to get it together to be strong for him.

[252] And he's telling me about the purses that he's making and how they're all in his cell.

[253] And what is he going to do with them?

[254] And, you know, would someone collect them and he wants his family to have them?

[255] and having these conversations, then I had to go into a skims meeting.

[256] And so I was like trying on like skims underwear and swimwear and all this stuff and doing fittings, but I'm like crying in the fitting just like standing there.

[257] You know, and then I had to go into a makeup meeting and they're doing swatches all over me. And I'm just like, again, you know, finally get a glimmer of hope from some attorney and then some official and we're going back and forth and then finally get another call from Brandon that I'd never thought I'd get when he was moved to the chamber.

[258] You know, then he was executed.

[259] It was the heaviest day.

[260] My kids are running in, and they're asking why I'm crying.

[261] And it was the most emotional day.

[262] But the proud thing about that is the attention that we were able to get for him.

[263] And just to show people that even though he didn't commit the crime, there are circumstances where as teenagers, people might make really bad choices.

[264] All teenagers.

[265] Yeah, because their frontal lobes are not developed.

[266] No teenager has gotten through that without making a mistake.

[267] Absolutely.

[268] And other people's circumstances, it's just really eye opening that day for a lot of people that had no idea that this stuff goes on in our system.

[269] And it was an extremely informative day.

[270] And for that, I'm grateful for the connection that you set me up with your friend.

[271] So thank you, Kristen.

[272] Oh, my God.

[273] Of course.

[274] Well, I'm for one, glad that people who listen to this will see that, like, you pay attention.

[275] It's so easy to look at.

[276] like anyone in the media and come to conclusions and be like, oh, a makeup company or an underwear company and think that that person is non -dimensional.

[277] But then this story exists.

[278] We both want people to know that because the whole point of doing, we are supported by is because we're looking to other women to tell their multidimensional stories and how they succeeded and what they failed at and what they learned.

[279] And I just come to the immediate like sort of aggressive conclusion where I'm like, yeah, anyone who wants to make a comment, why do you think she was able to get anyone's attention.

[280] It's because of the underwear meeting.

[281] It's because of the swatches on her arm.

[282] Why do you think the governor takes her call, asshole?

[283] Yeah.

[284] Because she's very successful.

[285] And that is sometimes what it takes to get someone on the phone and you're using it for like all good.

[286] And in the underwear meeting, the underwear is the broad spectrum of colors.

[287] The whole, like I love that so much.

[288] I mean, we love skin so much.

[289] But oh my gosh, you know what a send you guys a pack.

[290] Oh, but when I. But when I. first was introduced to it.

[291] The first thing I noted was like, the range of colors is unprecedented.

[292] You don't see it in other companies.

[293] And as someone with darker skin, I was like, fuck yes.

[294] Like, I don't have to wear like a light white, you know, body suit.

[295] We don't have the same body suit anymore because we shouldn't have the same body suit.

[296] Exactly.

[297] It's awesome.

[298] I mean, I couldn't find shapewear that was my skin tone, let alone.

[299] I mean, I used to take shapewear, cut it all up, put it in a bathtub or in a sink and put tea bags or coffee bags to get the color to dye onto the shapewear.

[300] So it would be somewhat my color.

[301] I mean, there were times when I couldn't get it to dry fast enough.

[302] So I'm wearing like wet shapewear under a dress.

[303] And I thought, if I can't find my skin tone, how is my daughter going to grow up and find their skin tones?

[304] It was such a crazy, simple concept to me. And I thought, I just want to have the most inclusive shade range because I just hadn't seen that.

[305] First of all, I love that you're also arts and craftsy and you're putting tea bags in, like when in high school, when we were asked to, like, write a letter like John Adams or something and you had to like tea stain the paper and like turn it in.

[306] You know what I mean?

[307] Like on the projects, I never, of course, I never thought to do that with, I mean, I never would have to because the shades out there are white girl, slightly tan white girl, and then very dark black.

[308] And like, that's all that's existed until you were like, no, probably not.

[309] And I have the influence to do this.

[310] so I'm going to make something awesome out of it.

[311] You know, I was watching the Paris Hilton documentary recently, which I think you're in for a second.

[312] I loved that doc.

[313] Again, like who we think she is versus who she is.

[314] And this documentary, I feel like, was so good at exposing that.

[315] But the most interesting part of that whole thing was when she was talking about the selfie.

[316] I mean, she essentially invented the selfie.

[317] And I was like, oh, my God.

[318] that is a person on earth walking around, knowing that she kind of solely invented the selfie and it has done so much good and it has, you know, of course, had some negative repercussions.

[319] And you're obviously in that category too with being so influential in women's bodies and what you portray and, you know, people look to you to show us what's beautiful.

[320] and that pressure.

[321] I just, like, wonder what that pressure is like.

[322] Oh, gosh.

[323] I mean, I go back and forth.

[324] Like, there is definitely the side of me that's like, be who you want to be and post what you want to post.

[325] And then there's the other side of me that's like, oh, I'm a mom.

[326] Oh, I'm 40.

[327] I got to chill.

[328] And, you know, I definitely wrestle with that idea in my mind.

[329] I'm grateful that my sisters and I, like, having all different body types.

[330] We've been able to show that and starting from working with designers years ago that would never lend me their clothes because they would never think that I would ever fit into them until, you know, now seeing designers make them that actually are curvier for different body types, like makes me really proud.

[331] I think that there could be this over glamorized perception that, you know, Instagram is just not real life.

[332] And part of that's true.

[333] Part of that's not true, depending on who you follow and what you choose to visually see.

[334] But it's also your best art, if you will, to put out whatever you choose to put out.

[335] So, you know, if you choose to put out photos of you looking natural and then if you choose to put photos that are more like artistic that you have taken with the best lighting, that is your choice.

[336] You know, so I don't really judge either way.

[337] do I think that there's a lot of pressure?

[338] I think that I used to feel that way after I had my kids because I was not a good pregnant person.

[339] I was not a cute pregnant person.

[340] I did not like it.

[341] I hated it.

[342] I hate how I felt.

[343] I hate how I looked.

[344] And I was so used to seeing, you know, my mom pregnant, my sister pregnant and everyone looking so cute and having these easy deliveries and life was great and they'd snap right back.

[345] Like that wasn't me. And so the media really did like brutalize me. over gaining a lot of weight and it would be covers of magazines like me and shamu and who wore it better and it was like really really crazy yeah i posted on my instagram not too long ago like all the articles i found they would always compare me to kate middleton so it would say like kate the waif and kim the whale the waifers the whale and it was like so nasty i mean i can't even believe i don't think that would really fly today i don't think it would but it killed my self -esteem i know right I really can't believe that this was acceptable and that this was okay, but I would sit at home and cry all the time.

[346] I had this condition called preclampsia, and I didn't really know that I had it, but it's like overswelling in your feet and your face.

[347] Anyone who see Downton Abbey, remember, when she delivered, she had preplansia.

[348] She died.

[349] It's very real serious condition in pregnancy.

[350] Yes.

[351] I had to deliver six weeks early with like an emergency delivery.

[352] And then I had another condition called placenta acrida with both.

[353] of my babies.

[354] It was insane.

[355] So anyway, it just changed how much I wanted to give.

[356] It changed me as a person.

[357] And I felt so much pressure at the beginning.

[358] And I wanted to start working out again.

[359] We didn't have like a gym or anything.

[360] And I was too embarrassed to go to a gym because I didn't want people to look at me, you know, trying to lose weight.

[361] I gained 70 pounds.

[362] And I would sit in my mom's garage and it was literally probably 115 degrees in Calabasas in the summertime.

[363] And I'd have my daughter in a stroller and I'd sit her in there and I would just work out in the garage and try to do anything than I could until I did it.

[364] And then once I lost my weight and I felt better than ever and I was curvier than I was before, I just felt so good about myself.

[365] But it really did change me. And it made me really pull back on what I shared and just how much I wanted to give because I saw how nasty everyone was, and it felt so bad.

[366] And we're dealing with the whole, like, Simone Biles thing about, you know, Liz Plank had posted this amazing thing about, like, Simone Biles didn't let us down, we let her down, because people are allowed to make their own choices, and it just gets my gourd so much that, like, anyone would choose to complain of, like, let's say they're like, oh, well, she always looks beautiful in great light.

[367] Yeah, because we have individual liberty in this country.

[368] She can choose to just post pictures of her feet all day.

[369] If she feels like it, you're the one looking.

[370] And by the way, you can curate your Instagram.

[371] If you feel less than when you're looking at anyone and it doesn't – because, like, I look at you and I get inspired because, I mean, as evidence by the fact that the minute we started, I showed you my nails, because I was like, oh, my God, Kim might like this.

[372] But it's the comparison of like, I'm not good enough because of this that we need to just eliminate.

[373] But, like, you can also curate what?

[374] you're looking at.

[375] And if you're looking at nasty stuff and you're comparing yourself, then you take it on your.

[376] It's not your job, Kim, to like make sure everyone feels happy all the time.

[377] Like, you're, you're, you're allowed to post artistic pictures.

[378] You're allowed to do anything that you want.

[379] I follow also a lot of women on Instagram who are like the birds papaya who's awesome or Victoria Garrick who's like showing tons of stretch marks and being like, I love this about myself.

[380] And I'm like, yes.

[381] And I look at you and I'm like, yes.

[382] Like, you can root for everyone.

[383] Oh, that is so true.

[384] So true.

[385] But then the magazines that are showing like you versus Kate Middleton, they're infecting us.

[386] You know, they're infecting us with these comparisons.

[387] It's part of the whole society that wants us to look at you and say like, well, I'm not her and I need to be like her.

[388] And it's, you know, it's a problem with, it's not your problem.

[389] It's everyone's problem.

[390] Yeah.

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[448] Okay.

[449] You're immensely successful.

[450] Thank you.

[451] When you started getting opportunities like everyone does, you turned it into something major.

[452] Did you like set goals for yourself?

[453] I want to do this by this age or I want to have this done by the end of the year from a business perspective.

[454] Yeah, I did.

[455] I mean, once a year, my mom and I would always circle back and talk about what our goals were.

[456] We were very clear.

[457] We would have like career goals.

[458] We would have like family goals, things we would want to do together as a family.

[459] And then we would have a materialistic goal list.

[460] You know, hey, I would love to be able to save enough to be able to purchase this car.

[461] Or it could have been a ridiculous goal like, hey, I hope one day I can work with this photographer or this year would be the year I would work with this photographer, be in this magazine.

[462] And we always did that for the longest time.

[463] I haven't done it in a while.

[464] And at the beginning of our career, we would really try so many things.

[465] I don't know if I would recommend that for everybody.

[466] We would try the most conflicting things, you know, ad campaigns that would be doing a weight loss supplement and then I'd do Carl's Jr. at the same time.

[467] It would be, I mean, I would be eating salads and stuff.

[468] You know, we'd have a cupcake store that we were opening.

[469] I mean, it was kind of all contradictory at one point.

[470] But it taught us, I think that.

[471] lesson.

[472] I always, I try not to really harp on anything that I had done in the past business wise, personally, anything as long as I just, you know, don't do it again if I didn't like it and learn from it.

[473] So I think that experience of trying so many things was preparing us for the place to get picky on who you choose as your partner and to not work with shady people.

[474] And I think that you don't realize that if you're going to be in business and if you're going to work with people for your own happiness in life where I'm at now I will never get into business with anybody that I just don't like it seems really that simple but like I have to want to be around people that I'd want to come into my home for Christmas Eve or to spend birthdays with or it doesn't even have to be that intimate but that you really truly believe that they're good people and that you trust them and that whole experience of trying anything with any partner with any, you know, distributor, we learned so much about who we don't want to work with.

[475] And I think that is really key to having long relationships, long partnerships.

[476] I mean, I have just a no -asshole policy across the board, my mom and I, like, I'm in my office now, all my staff, like everyone genuinely gets along.

[477] If there's some crazy energy, it's just not going to work out.

[478] I want people to want to come to work.

[479] I want people to want to love what they do.

[480] I think we're in a time now where it's like life is stressful in itself.

[481] Work shouldn't be.

[482] And I'm attracted to people that have a really strong work ethic doesn't take the easy road out.

[483] And that's just who I want to surround my time with and my energy with.

[484] I have a similar way in that I like my situation with anyone that I'm working with to be very familial.

[485] And sometimes that is, like, I'm looking at Monica who's like, we do sleepovers together, right?

[486] But we also work together.

[487] But like, she's my best friend.

[488] But like, for real, like I feel the same way.

[489] Like, I have to know that your values and my values are aligned.

[490] So if you have to answer an email, if we're in a business endeavor together, I need to know that you're going to keep our values aligned.

[491] And I, by the way, feel like I made the exact same.

[492] I won't even say mistakes, but I did the exact same thing where I'm like, well, I probably shouldn't have done that.

[493] But, like, how as a young person are you even supposed to know that until you are allowed to make the mistake and then go like, oh, yeah, that seems, yeah.

[494] You have to be able to learn.

[495] No one comes out of the womb knowing all this stuff.

[496] Exactly.

[497] And no one's there to tell you, especially for you guys.

[498] And there's also a point where if something isn't as cool or maybe in the industry, if we're trying to pick and choose, like, things to do, at the end of the day, if you had fun doing it, I think that trumps coolness, you know, like if it's just really, really something that you want to do or that you.

[499] you've just had the best time doing.

[500] It's like, hey, if it's not like the coolest thing that I did, who cares?

[501] You want to stay on brand and you want to stay on, you know, character for sure.

[502] But if you have like an opportunity to do something and it just seems like a fun experience that you want to try, even if you never want to do it again, I think that's okay too in business.

[503] Like you can really pick and choose and design your life.

[504] And the good news is everyone forgets about it soon.

[505] It's what, you know, our media goes so fast that if you did something, And you're like, oh, shit, I shouldn't have done that.

[506] Like, that's just kind of cheesy.

[507] Why did I choose to, you know, do that whatever post?

[508] People forget tomorrow.

[509] So it really doesn't matter.

[510] I just had this experience this past week because we shot, Monica and I do this show called Momsplaining on Ellen Tube, like Warner Digital does it.

[511] And we make no money on it.

[512] But it is the most fun part of my year because the whole show was developed like be this little digital show talking about parenting through my lens, which is just like, why do we always smell like urine and have avocado under our fingers?

[513] And it's like these silly little five -minute videos.

[514] And we do, I don't know, between five and ten a year.

[515] And it is the most happy week of my entire year.

[516] Yeah.

[517] And it's not motivated by anything financial or for your image.

[518] Like, it's for nothing other than just enjoyment.

[519] And loving the team because it's run by a really amazing group of women.

[520] And we just, because we just did it last week, like I came home.

[521] We were driving home in the car and I was like, God, I love it.

[522] that experience because you're just plugging back into passion and creativity and something that makes your heart happy.

[523] That is so important.

[524] You should really like the environment that you're in and the work relationships that you have.

[525] I think in order to be sustainable for your own mental health and for your just livelihood.

[526] In regards to environments, like how real talk are you keeping this couch white?

[527] Are you keeping this couch white with four kids?

[528] Because it's white.

[529] I'm in my office right now.

[530] Okay.

[531] It is.

[532] It is.

[533] My whole house is cream, though.

[534] It really is.

[535] And honestly, the way that I look at things, people ask me that all the time.

[536] They're like, how on earth do you have an all cream house with four kids?

[537] I don't care that much about stuff.

[538] It's stuff.

[539] So, I mean, obviously I want to have nice furniture and nice things.

[540] But even in this, like, super expensive, like Royer couch, if my kids were to come up with a Sharpie and destroy it.

[541] I honestly am just not the type.

[542] It's like whatever.

[543] I don't encourage it obviously.

[544] And I think I would like yell for a second, but it's not the end of the world.

[545] I mean, my daughter, her response would be like, it's art, mom.

[546] You know, I just made it better.

[547] And, you know, but none of them have ever done anything crazy like that.

[548] And because I'm not crazy.

[549] I let him ride.

[550] I have this really long hallway.

[551] I have scooters at like both ends.

[552] I let them ride bikes in the house, scooters in the house.

[553] Like, I let them go crazy.

[554] And I just, I think because I don't care and I don't put such an emphasis on it, nothing ever really happens.

[555] I did see a really cool.

[556] I can't remember where I saw it, where they had a white couch and something had gotten on it like Sharpie.

[557] And so she was like, okay, great.

[558] Well, then everybody grabbed Sharpies.

[559] And she had her kids decorate the entire couch with, like, different pictures and their name and let, like, it looked like a very, very cool, like 1980s white back drop with like all these cool Sharpie over it.

[560] And I was like, that is so dope.

[561] And if you have a white couch and it gets Sharpie on it, like just give in to the art. Like a banksy.

[562] I agree with your daughter.

[563] Yeah.

[564] Turn it into a banksy.

[565] Yep.

[566] So we talked to Oprah a little bit about this, about likeability and people pleasing that you just can't get past it being a girl growing up in this country that you are told you need to be likable and, you know, you need to say yes to people and, you know, all the stuff that we're drilled into.

[567] And what I love about the show is everyone loves it.

[568] It's such a hit.

[569] But people like to outwardly, it's a reality show or it's a guilty pleasure.

[570] It's like, no, it's a pleasure.

[571] You enjoy it.

[572] And I wonder how you feel about that, like knowing, like going into it, I'm sure, especially in your first couple seasons, like wanting to be likable and knowing that people are walking away, some of them.

[573] like, oh, we don't like them.

[574] How does it feel on that scale?

[575] I don't know.

[576] It's weird.

[577] I think in person, I used to care so much about being likable and like meeting people.

[578] And I would always want people to walk away, kind of like how you were saying, like, oh, you're kind of different than what I thought.

[579] I was always like that.

[580] Like, oh, I can't wait to meet people because I kind of like when they go away saying like, oh, she's so different than what I would have imagined.

[581] On the show, when you are around your family all the time, I think you're at your most comfortable self.

[582] You're in your home.

[583] You take out your most aggression when it's the people you love the most around you.

[584] So it would be one side of us for sure.

[585] But then if you think about it, there was so many family members.

[586] The first like half of the show, it was only 30 minutes.

[587] So with commercials, that's like 22 minutes.

[588] And if there's 10, you know, characters, you're getting like a few minutes of each person's personality, even even if we went when we went to an hour long, so that's like 44 minutes, you're still getting a version of Courtney and Scott and what their relationship is.

[589] You're still getting a version of like me and Courtney every time we fight.

[590] But you're definitely not getting the like Kim going to school version because that's just boring.

[591] Or you're definitely not getting, you know, me and Courtney and how we've come to be so understanding of each other more so than any other family member because that's kind of You know, so it's like, I used to care about the likeability, but I would edit the episode.

[592] So I would, you know, help produce them.

[593] And so I was really good at taking myself out of the situation and saying like, okay, this is a huge fight that me and Courtney just had.

[594] And I think it's kind of important, even though I hate how I look and I look like a lunatic.

[595] I think that it's important.

[596] First of all, it's what really happened.

[597] But second of all, I'm sure other siblings feel the same way.

[598] and I'm okay to take the like bitch of the week because that was the side of me. And it's okay, you know, like the people that know me know me. I think number one, the audience would enjoy seeing that side of us.

[599] You know, as a producer that way, I was really good at like taking myself out where sometimes it would get really emotional for people when the family was like editing it.

[600] I got to a point and maybe being in a relationship with Kanye for, you know, a decade and someone that absolutely didn't care about likeability.

[601] factor or what any perception of him was, as long as he was true to himself, that taught me so much in the best way of just being me and living in the moment.

[602] And you don't have to please everyone as long as I'm myself and as long as I'm doing it the way that I want to do, like you have one life and you're living it for you.

[603] That taught me to just, I think, be more confident in myself and truly not care as much of what other people thought.

[604] I'm.

[605] particularly a person that's probably more vain than the average person, probably why I love to curate my Instagram and love to take so many photos.

[606] But I became comfortable in that as well.

[607] But that's me. And that's what I want to post.

[608] And this is what I want to do more so for myself, not really for an image of, oh my God, let me see who's commenting.

[609] Let me see who's liking it.

[610] I got to a place where I really didn't care.

[611] I used to be such a. people pleaser.

[612] And then when I got to just learn to please myself, no matter what that meant to other people, still being mindful, still being respectful, still being cautious of like other people's feelings and emotions around me, I would never want to offend anyone.

[613] But just being myself first, I think was something that I learned over time, whether it's from being so close to someone that really felt that way so genuinely to their core, whether it's age, whether it's becoming a mom, experiences, probably all kind of wrapped up in one.

[614] I read this article.

[615] It was like a Vanity Fair article that I loved so much.

[616] Talked about the evolution of keeping up with the Kardashians and said that when we started, it was so much about us proving that we wanted to be famous and us wanting to be famous, which was so true.

[617] I have no problem admitting or saying that that's was my goal.

[618] Like, that's what I wanted.

[619] I really wanted to be on a TV show.

[620] I really wanted to be famous.

[621] My goals, when we were talking about goals earlier, were sillier goals.

[622] Like, I want to make it in, you know, I remember this like us weekly fashion spread.

[623] I would think that would be so cool, you know, just sillier things.

[624] And then towards the end, people kind of tuned in for that like fascination of like, oh, you know, they're so out there and they're so like desperate to be famous or whatever and then it kind of turned to this oh we're tuning in to kind of see even though they have kind of made it but like how normal they are and like oh they're just still like a normal family like the roles of what we wanted and who we are just kind of like flipped into why people would tune in the guy wrote it so much better than I can explain it but it was just so true to like the evolution of having kids having life experiences that shake you to your core that change you, that make you look at life differently to where you can start off in your career wanting one thing and having certain goals and then completely transforming that into wanting something totally different in your life and out of your life.

[625] And that is totally okay to change your mind and to want different things and to start off being a people pleaser and to ending up not being a people pleaser.

[626] just because you're not doesn't mean you're an asshole.

[627] It means that you set boundaries.

[628] I totally sound like Courtney right now talking about like boundaries.

[629] We like boundaries.

[630] I love this.

[631] So I'm connecting on such a like visceral level that like literally my mouth is filling up a spit.

[632] Like I'm having like a bot.

[633] No, but because like people probably would look, I have like a different representation or brand and I'm sure that people put me in a category as well.

[634] But like I 100 % am in tune with you.

[635] Like, the idea when I thought I might be in Us Weekly at the, you know, the beginning of my career was mind -boggling.

[636] I would so excited and would check it and see, because if I'm looking back and being super honest and not revisionist history, it was one of my goals.

[637] And it's like also okay that that was maybe a super, if now I look at it, like a superficial goal, like, yeah, and now my goals have changed.

[638] But isn't it the best feeling when they do change and when you get to that place?

[639] Like, every phase is fine.

[640] And, And every phase is fun.

[641] And I look back and I have the best memories ever of that time.

[642] Like, it was so much fun to know, oh, my God, I got hair and makeup.

[643] I have to go to Coy.

[644] I have to go to the Ivy.

[645] I have to be seen.

[646] Like, it was those times before kids and before what was important is so different.

[647] Yeah.

[648] What my group chats would have been about years ago are so different now.

[649] And it's fun.

[650] But being exposed to someone who's not a people pleaser, because like, I'm also married to definitely whatever the opposite of a people pleaser is, who's someone who says to me nightly, okay, reminder, the only person you need to compare yourself to is who you were yesterday.

[651] That kind of knowledge being dropped on me all the time has definitely nightly.

[652] Yeah, it infected my way of being to go, oh yeah, I appear like this very nice, kind, giving girl.

[653] And what's underneath is I am an immense people pleaser who is not very secure who is trying to do all these things so that because I'm scared people won't like me. And who cares if everyone likes you if you don't like you?

[654] Yeah.

[655] That is, why do we have to be told that?

[656] It's unbelievable.

[657] Right.

[658] Yeah, but it's the truth.

[659] And that it's okay that your identity is flexible.

[660] I think that's so important to take away because we get so stuck in our identities.

[661] And it's like, I'm this.

[662] And I guess I'm this for life.

[663] And this is the only thing I can ever want.

[664] And you're doing yourself a disservice.

[665] Oh, and with labels.

[666] I mean, yes, I was photographed like eating, I don't know, a burger or something at a fast food restaurant.

[667] And, you know, I saw the comments.

[668] I'm like, I thought you were vegan.

[669] And I'm like, you know what?

[670] I'm a flexitarian.

[671] I eat vegan when I'm at home.

[672] And that is okay.

[673] And I eat 90 % of the time vegan.

[674] And if you only knew my struggle, I went and I took a bite of a burger.

[675] And I was like, you know what?

[676] I don't like this.

[677] And I didn't have more than one bite.

[678] And that's okay.

[679] But I'm like, the fact that you're stuck to these labels didn't feel right to me. So I was like, I'm okay.

[680] But if you didn't try and if you didn't go there, then you wouldn't know.

[681] It seems so simple.

[682] And also, piece of advice for anyone commenting, I beg you not to worry about whether or not Kim is a vegan or not.

[683] Yeah.

[684] That is not the priority of whatever is in your life.

[685] Like, do literally anything else.

[686] That is a complete waste of worry.

[687] Like, I know.

[688] Yeah.

[689] It's.

[690] It's, It was ridiculous.

[691] Yeah, people are using you as a distraction from their own issues and their own problems.

[692] They need to worry about the burger because they can't worry about their own.

[693] Great point, Monica.

[694] Yes.

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[720] I love Audible.

[721] I listen to Audible all the time.

[722] What are you listening to right now?

[723] I'm finishing up Jonathan Heights coddling of the American mind.

[724] Nice.

[725] And it's blowing my little coddled mind.

[726] It's so easy to use, which I love.

[727] And I feel like all the people we talk to, they all have books and I want to consume it all.

[728] But it's hard to physically read at this.

[729] point.

[730] Everyone's on the move and it's like, you can listen in your car.

[731] It's so nice.

[732] I never remember to put a book in my bag.

[733] I'm always trying to travel lighter.

[734] And I have all of the books I want to read at my fingertips when I can pop my earphones in.

[735] They actually give you great recommendations because I will sometimes not be paying attention and a new Malcolm Gladwell book will come out.

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[745] Look, we're talking about your success, how you've built it.

[746] Now you certainly don't need any more money, but you're studying to be a lawyer.

[747] Yeah.

[748] You could.

[749] absolutely choose to sit on that couch all day with your feet up and, you know, be fed grapes and watch TV.

[750] But you don't.

[751] So like what's, you know, the wisdom coming into your life at an older age and having four kids I love?

[752] Can you talk a little bit more about like what made you find this sense of purpose of like, oh yeah, I'm going to take one of the hardest tests in the world and try to become a lawyer?

[753] It really is a struggle for me because it does take a lot of time away from my kids.

[754] And so I really had to make a decision.

[755] And I have had nights where my kids are crying saying, please don't do this anymore.

[756] Please don't become a lawyer.

[757] You're too busy.

[758] You're taking too much time away.

[759] And I've had to sit them down and say, I'd love you to be in the room with me. I'd love you to be with me on this journey.

[760] And I talk to them about cases.

[761] They've been in the room when I've been crying over cases.

[762] And I said, you know, one day you will understand.

[763] And I want you to be proud of me and I want you to do whatever you want to do when you grow up.

[764] And I want you to give me the room and the power.

[765] And they fully understood it when I really like explained it to them in that way.

[766] But it was just really simple.

[767] I mean, I've always been super interested.

[768] My dad was a lawyer.

[769] I used to ask him tons of questions all the time.

[770] Him and I talked about me going to law school.

[771] You know, he did say that he thinks that it would really stress me out and that I would probably age a lot quicker than I wanted to, you know, at the time when we talked about it when I was in my early 20s.

[772] So I love that I was able to have those conversations with my dad of someone that I truly respected that was an attorney.

[773] And I learned a lot from him.

[774] But I also just felt super naive that I just didn't know about so much in our system.

[775] Like I actually had no idea that it was so fucked up.

[776] And once I started to work on cases and see that I can make a difference and had influence.

[777] I really didn't want to stop at just where I was at.

[778] And then I felt like I was always asking my attorney friends texting them all the time, like, what is this mean or what is this mean?

[779] Or I didn't know what certain words were.

[780] Everyone uses all these abbreviations.

[781] And I was just like, what the fuck does that mean?

[782] Or what, you know, you have to start somewhere.

[783] You have to really be like, like, I remember in one of my first meetings, I was in like the Roosevelt room with all of these people in a clemency meeting.

[784] We're sitting there and everyone's dropping all these abbreviations.

[785] And I'm like literally texting my attorney across me. I'm like, what's the DOJ?

[786] You know, like super simple things, you know?

[787] Yes.

[788] And I just felt so embarrassed.

[789] But I'm like, I'm going to ask.

[790] I'm not going to ask and just sit here acting like I know everything.

[791] I want to be able to know as much as possible.

[792] So I can come in and not have to like text my attorney mentor on the side what all of these things meet.

[793] She said to me, because her story is pretty crazy.

[794] Her husband at the time, she was like in college pregnant and her husband got convicted of a drug charge and was sentenced to like 15 years and she had to figure it all out and put herself through college with a baby, put herself through law school.

[795] And she's like, I was the same way.

[796] I didn't know anything.

[797] I was asking everything.

[798] And I think you have to start with not being embarrassed to ask the most simple questions.

[799] If you want to know and you want to know bad enough, you'll figure it out.

[800] And it was just that simple for me. Like I want to know and I'm into it.

[801] I would say, I don't know if it's like an age thing, like my retention of having to know every single definition of anything in law school is a lot harder.

[802] And I don't retain as much.

[803] But everything that I'm studying so far, whether it's contracts or personal injury law or even crim law, I'm living it.

[804] I have to do contracts all the time.

[805] I have to know things about personal injury with my employees and I'm living it.

[806] So if I were to have done it back in high school and right into college, yeah, I probably would have been able to retain more, but I wouldn't have understood it the way that I do now.

[807] So I appreciate it so much more now.

[808] I think this was just like my journey and my path of what I was supposed to do.

[809] And if I did not pass this bar, I find out in a few days, I am really going to question myself because I think I did well.

[810] So if I don't pass, I'm going to be so fucking pissed.

[811] Oh my gosh.

[812] You have no idea.

[813] Fingers cross.

[814] I know.

[815] When you pass, what are your hopes?

[816] What do you want to do with it?

[817] I really hope to, first of all, so many incarcerated people that I've met are like the smartest people ever that would be some of the best attorneys.

[818] So I really hope that I could start a firm that would employ a lot of these people that will really help, whether they have their degree or not, you know, to really help with all the paperwork and help write everything that we would need in a firm.

[819] I just think it would be super powerful to have an amazing firm with some of the smartest people just to help write bills, get people out, and just really focus on justice reform.

[820] I mean, so far, all my family, they'll ask me certain questions or look over this contract.

[821] And I'm like, guys, I don't have time.

[822] Like, we're still going to have attorneys on deck because I'm not going to be reading all your contracts and negotiating shit for you.

[823] Like, that is what, you know, your attorneys are for.

[824] You seem to be focused on the human being at the other end because you keep gravitating towards criminal justice reform.

[825] Absolutely.

[826] Yeah, for sure.

[827] I mean, me just being so naive, I remember the first case that I ever looked at was Alice Johnson.

[828] And I was like, what is it?

[829] Like, could she not afford an attorney?

[830] Did she not have a good attorney?

[831] I didn't know about the system.

[832] I was just like, can I help her out?

[833] Like, thinking it was just a financial thing.

[834] And I was so naive to think that.

[835] And then I dug deeper and was like, oh, shit.

[836] there's like so much unraveling like it's it's overwhelming how messed up everything is and just how deep it really goes and it really is so much about like this person or the circumstance and it just shouldn't be that way and so if i can help change that in any way my life has been so much about me everything is me me me me you get to a point where it's like okay enough about me you know like what else can i do what can i do to really help people and that makes me feel happy.

[837] So that's what I want to do is more justice reform to really help change like the laws and the bills and all starting with, I love storytelling in anything that I do, whether it's like a skims launch or a makeup collection.

[838] So I believe that ultimately people in society just want to feel safe.

[839] If they hear someone's been in jail for 20 something years, they must have done something so bad.

[840] When like Alice Johnson, it's like, okay, first time nonviolent drug, the fence because she answered a telephone that like she really had no idea it was going on, gets the same sentence as Charles Manson.

[841] That doesn't make sense.

[842] So I just want to storytell and show this great grandmother that is the sweetest human being on the planet.

[843] One of the smartest woman that I've ever met give her a chance and to show the public like, hey guys, this isn't Charles Manson.

[844] Like let's tell her story.

[845] Let's dig deep.

[846] if you look at it on paper, it's not going to read the same way.

[847] So my goal was just, hey, I know it's just one case and we have bills that will actually change the law that will help so many more people.

[848] But we've got to start with like sharing people's stories and really bringing this to society.

[849] So ultimately they feel safe.

[850] That is so smart because there are 3 ,278 people serving life sentences without parole for a nonviolent offense.

[851] That's so crazy.

[852] When I first heard about this, like what you were doing with Alice Johnson, some people who did not vote for President Trump and they were like, I can't believe she's meeting with Trump.

[853] I have certain ideas about him.

[854] I immediately went, wait a minute, if I thought I could save someone's life, I would meet with the devil himself.

[855] If I would be like, let's talk about it.

[856] You know what I mean?

[857] Like, doesn't matter who you're meeting with.

[858] It matters what you're there doing.

[859] And what I find so interesting about this parallel between you and Alice.

[860] If you look her up on Wikipedia, there's one title that comes up, American Convicted Criminal.

[861] That's the one title.

[862] And it's a box.

[863] And she also, here's the thing, though, she's made during her prison sentence, made speeches at Yale, she became an ordained minister, she became a certified hospice worker, she wrote plays.

[864] Like, this woman is not one thing.

[865] And I'm so grateful that you were exposed to her case and were able to get it done because Because she has this quote that I read and she said, I will not allow the past to become the sum of who I am.

[866] So true.

[867] I was like so angry when I wickied her and it just came up American convicted criminal.

[868] I'm like, no, no, this grandmother, great -grandmother now, is so much more than that.

[869] And how dare we put that title on her?

[870] How dare we box her into that?

[871] Wow.

[872] Yeah.

[873] That's so crazy.

[874] Especially, I mean, if you know her, she's one of the best people I've ever met, really, truly, the best.

[875] And I'm so proud of her for just being so open and sharing her story.

[876] And I'm so, so, so happy that she came into my life.

[877] She taught me so much just about humanity and about life and about the system.

[878] And when she got out, I saw her.

[879] And she hadn't seen an iPhone, you know, like really simple things.

[880] And I mean, Snapchat.

[881] I remember I mentioned that to her.

[882] And she was like, it was so foreign to her.

[883] Filters.

[884] Did you like put one of the weird like alligator filters on her head?

[885] And she was like, what is happening?

[886] Yeah.

[887] It was so interesting just to see how different her life was the last time she was free, the simple things that we take for granted, just off of, you know, if you know her backstory and you just, people really don't know people's back stories.

[888] And that really breaks my heart just to know that she was just trying to do anything to make money.

[889] Her son just had died.

[890] her husband had left her high and dry with five kids, and she just answered a telephone.

[891] She didn't even know for what.

[892] You know, she knew it was shady, but she didn't want to ask.

[893] She didn't know any details.

[894] And all the people that were really heavily involved in this drug situation were in and out.

[895] And she got a life sentence on a first time offense.

[896] Do you know who Susan Burton is by chance?

[897] She runs an organization out here called A New Way of Life.

[898] She has an unbelievable book called Becoming Miss Burton that is a lot to read because it talks about her childhood and how much abuse she had to overcome.

[899] And her son, when he was five, died in a sort of essentially a hit and run by a police officer.

[900] And she was just completely torn up.

[901] She sort of went back to experimenting with drugs.

[902] She was on and off drugs for a while.

[903] She was in and out of jail six times.

[904] when she finally got out the sixth time, she was like, enough.

[905] And this woman just phoenixed herself, just to go, I don't want to do this anymore.

[906] I'm going to go to a rehab.

[907] She went to a rehab, like an all -white rehab in like Santa Monica.

[908] And she looked around and she was like, curious, why isn't this available in my neighborhood?

[909] So she started meeting people, women, at the bus station where they were dropped off from incarceration.

[910] And she would walk up to them and she would say, you don't know me. My name is Susan.

[911] I have two small bedrooms in my house.

[912] Would you like to come get your And she is incredible.

[913] She is.

[914] And it's, what's her name?

[915] Susan Burton.

[916] I'll make sure you have the info about it.

[917] And I'll send you her book.

[918] But she's incredible.

[919] But yeah, there are some women who no matter what happens because Alice is the same.

[920] Like, the resilience factor is unquantifiable.

[921] Because I feel like if something like that happened to me, like I would literally just be in my cell crying.

[922] Like I can't imagine the kind of food to.

[923] And almost 25 years later.

[924] Oh, my God.

[925] Yeah.

[926] I'm working on a case with a guy that's been in for over 40 years.

[927] I've never met anyone like him that is so hopeful after been in longer than I was alive.

[928] You know, I couldn't imagine.

[929] But the resilience thread is relevant because there's a parallel in that she's not an American convict.

[930] She's a playwright.

[931] She's a this.

[932] And if you saw on paper just a list of all the things, you wouldn't be able to put it in a box.

[933] when I was doing a little research on you, I mean, everyone already knows all this stuff.

[934] But like when I have it listed out here, like your father passed away, your mom's best friend was murdered.

[935] You know, you had to watch the horrible trial.

[936] You were robbed.

[937] You witnessed a transition within your household, a divorce.

[938] Like, that's a lot for one person.

[939] And if someone saw that list and didn't know it was you, there would just be like an intense.

[940] amount of compassion and oh my gosh what a life oh my gosh but when they know it's you they put it in a different box and i just want to encourage everyone to like know the backstory know that everyone has a list thank you i mean i think that i have never gotten stuck in anything that has ever happened or anything that i've ever experienced and i don't know why the only thing that i can say is i'm so grateful for my family just because we're all there together you know It's like in someone's journey into Hollywood or into fame, you usually don't experience that with every single family member at the same exact time.

[941] So whether it would be calling someone and being like, oh, my God, I just got this work gig, you know, how cool I just made X amount of money or got this offer.

[942] I never thought in a bazillion years when I couldn't pay my rent in my place that I would ever get this.

[943] The same family member is going through the same exact thing, like at the same time.

[944] Or even if it's something silly, it's like, oh, my God, I got invited to this event.

[945] And whoever thought we would be invited or, oh, my God, I just met this person.

[946] How cool, like someone we might have been a fan of before.

[947] And then, you know, we all kind of have that experience together where each one of us could call each other, which is like just magical and rare and like no one else on the planet would ever understand it.

[948] Yeah.

[949] But it's helped us stay grounded.

[950] It's helped us stay focused.

[951] and just been each other's best, like, therapist and backbone and all of the above.

[952] So I think it's just like we're in a really unique situation where you might see the trauma and wonder, like, how did they get through that?

[953] Like, well, we really do have each other, which I think has saved us and really helped.

[954] And it doesn't mean that we don't have our moments or break down or feel it.

[955] You know, I think people would assume everything's on the show.

[956] I mean, there was a time when I would meet up with people and they would be like, is a camera here?

[957] And I'd be like, no, what are you talking about?

[958] We have a full other life.

[959] You know, when we're on camera, we open everything and we share everything.

[960] But there's things that aren't for that too.

[961] And there's things for our sanity that we keep for ourselves.

[962] There's a strategy to it.

[963] Absolutely.

[964] I'm pretty proud of all of us for being true to our boundaries and our limits and knowing that if something is affecting us to give that person time and to be supportive to get through that.

[965] And I just look at every experience, whether it's like my robbery.

[966] I mean, I'm just such a different person.

[967] And the things that I value now after that experience are completely different.

[968] Simply, like material things don't mean anything to me. Maybe I would have been an absolute raging lunatic if my kid was walking down my White house with a Sharpie then, you know, before that experience.

[969] Now it's like it's life and who cares.

[970] and I'm not going to put a value on my material things.

[971] I never thought I'd say this.

[972] Like, I'll wear a fake jewelry.

[973] Like, I don't care.

[974] Yeah.

[975] You know, I actually don't care.

[976] I won't put a value on expensive things like that.

[977] It won't ever mean so much to me. I want to sleep at night knowing that, like, I have nothing that anyone could ever take that would ever mean anything to me, you know?

[978] And just little things like that.

[979] And you couldn't have told me five years ago that.

[980] I wouldn't have cared to have, like, the coolest car, the coolest jewelry, like, that defined who I was.

[981] I thought, if I don't have the, whatever the most popular thing is, then I'm not shit.

[982] Like, I really thought that.

[983] Obviously, we don't want these traumatizing experiences, but I, like, work through them.

[984] I get through them.

[985] And I try to be as healthy as I can for my kids and for my family.

[986] So if I'm feeling it, I feel it.

[987] And then I move on.

[988] And if it comes back and I need to feel it again, I'll do that.

[989] But I try to be.

[990] not to live in the past except for taking away the best experiences from that bad situation.

[991] I love that you're pointing out the familial importance here because when they study the ACE scores of people, the adverse childhood experiences where you can sort of estimate whether or not someone might probably have an addiction when they're older or probably have, you know, some PTSD issues when they're older.

[992] And my score is very low.

[993] Dax's ACE score is very high.

[994] The one thing they do say about that in all of these books, Body Keeps the score and the new one that Oprah wrote, you know, what happened to you?

[995] If you have one person as a child that you trust and look to and it's real, you can get through it.

[996] Wow.

[997] And like Oprah said that.

[998] Like literally, if you were to actually read what happened to her as a child and as a young woman, nothing could possibly be more traumatizing.

[999] But she had a teacher who looked at her like she was like a bright, shining star and took time with her and said, what do you need?

[1000] How can I help you?

[1001] How can I teach you?

[1002] I am here for you.

[1003] And she credits that teacher for like the entirety of her success.

[1004] So you just have to have one person, but this idea of your family being so close probably has something to do with like your resilience and ability to process this because you guys do have such great relationships.

[1005] We really do.

[1006] We always say that like, you know, you obviously don't choose your family.

[1007] But we all think that we chose each other up above and chose to live this life together and wanted to be together.

[1008] And like, we all pretty much live in the same gated community.

[1009] We're like sickly obsessed with each other.

[1010] And it's like, you know, it's, it's a lot.

[1011] But we really genuinely are.

[1012] We love hanging out.

[1013] We love always being together.

[1014] So I really do credit them for everything.

[1015] That's lovely.

[1016] You gave us so much of your time.

[1017] Thank you so much.

[1018] Thank you so much.

[1019] for coming on here.

[1020] Oh my gosh, you're so welcome.

[1021] You are so, so welcome.

[1022] We want to do it again.

[1023] Or just come over.

[1024] Yeah, probably just come over, hang out with us.

[1025] Come over.

[1026] Come over.

[1027] Just don't bring a Sharpie.

[1028] I will not bring any sharpies.

[1029] You know, I'm not even mad anymore about the kids' skims.

[1030] I was apoplectic when I came in here because, listen, we got one.

[1031] I'll make sure that you get them.

[1032] I just, they're always sold out.

[1033] Don't worry.

[1034] I was mad.

[1035] Now I'm not mad anymore at all.

[1036] I just have nothing but love.

[1037] You ooze so much confidence and compassion and composure.

[1038] And God, what a big brain you have to have accomplished all of this, especially with this attitude and all that's on your shoulders.

[1039] What a role model.

[1040] What a role model.

[1041] We are so excited to acknowledge your Phoenix.

[1042] Thank you, guys.

[1043] You guys are getting even more skims after those compliments.

[1044] That's the goal.

[1045] I'll send you whatever you want.

[1046] Thanks.

[1047] guys.

[1048] Have a good rest of your day.

[1049] Thank you.

[1050] Thank you.

[1051] You too.

[1052] Okay, bye guys.