Ambassador Rahm Emanuel

[0] Hi, my name is Rahm Emanuel, and I feel a tremendous amount of self -loathing about being Conan O 'Brien's friend.

[1] Okay, you, and I hate to say this because you're an ambassador.

[2] Yeah.

[3] You've served in many positions for our government, but you prick.

[4] How dare you?

[5] How dare you say that to me?

[6] Only school, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[7] Yes, I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[8] Hey there, Conan O 'Brien here.

[9] Welcome to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[10] No Matt Gourley today, he's got the flu or so he says.

[11] I picture him water skiing right now.

[12] Yeah, I don't believe him.

[13] Yeah, laughing and drinking a margarita all at the same time.

[14] But, Sona, you're here.

[15] I am.

[16] I'm here.

[17] Yeah, no. And I'm not going water skiing.

[18] No, no, you're with me. because you believe in me and you have faith in me. No, it's because I couldn't go water skiing today.

[19] Oh, yeah, right.

[20] Yeah, you couldn't.

[21] You tried really hard.

[22] I really wanted to go water skiing.

[23] All right, well, we have a show today where we're not going to do a lot of chit chat first because our guest happened to be in town and we ended up talking about a lot and we went long.

[24] So I think we're going to get right into it.

[25] My guest today is an American diplomat and former mayor of Chicago served in the Clinton and Obama administrations and he now serves as the United States Ambassador to Japan.

[26] This gentleman has a very unique perspective on what's happening in the world right now and I thought it might be valuable to check in with him.

[27] Get his take.

[28] Ambassador Rahm Emanuel.

[29] Welcome.

[30] This was a mistake.

[31] It was a mistake.

[32] It was a mistake.

[33] We got to that.

[34] Let me get people a little bit of background, which is a couple of years ago, I do a week of shows in Chicago.

[35] And you, as the mayor of Chicago at the time, and you've held many posts, you agreed to come on and give me the Chicago citizenship test.

[36] All I remember is huge laughs, huge laughs.

[37] Went over very well.

[38] The rest, that's all I remember is laughter.

[39] I don't recall much else.

[40] But you did us a solid.

[41] You did that for us.

[42] It was also your best ratings, if I remember correctly.

[43] Let me look that up right now.

[44] It's our only ratings, though, apparently.

[45] That Nielsen thing's really coming in handy.

[46] It really is coming in handy.

[47] Also, we have a bit of a, we have a connection, which is, and I like to, you know, be up front about that, which is...

[48] I thought we weren't going to talk about that on the show.

[49] We are going to.

[50] You have a brother.

[51] Rumor has it.

[52] You have two brothers.

[53] Of course, one is an incredible brainiac physician, man in the world, Zeke.

[54] And then your brother, Ari, has been voted the most.

[55] evil man in the world many times by Evil Magazine and they really know their shit.

[56] Ari Emanuel technically represents me, but I thought this wasn't a, technically, it's really his friend, it does most of the work.

[57] And I thought it was okay to still have you on, even though there's a conflict of interest, because Ari has not answered my phone calls in about 15 years.

[58] Oh, wow.

[59] You're like his brothers.

[60] Exactly, yeah.

[61] We'll come into that, this thing.

[62] Wait a second, but first of all, when you do get up on the phone, yeah, okay, no. Yeah.

[63] Yeah.

[64] That's it.

[65] That's it.

[66] He doesn't listen.

[67] And ever since.

[68] Ari actually knows only like two pronouns and one adjective.

[69] So that's right.

[70] So you come from this family.

[71] We'll start with the family because you, Emmanuel's, are quite a group.

[72] You are three supercharged human beings that have come into life.

[73] And I come from a large family.

[74] And I wouldn't say that that's true of my brothers and I. What happened?

[75] What did your parents instill in you that turned.

[76] you into these well, semi -ferral you know, incredibly potent, powerful beings.

[77] Tell me what was the secret?

[78] Growing up in the Emanuel House, were you hit with a cane?

[79] What was happening?

[80] I think, well, I don't remember it being a cane.

[81] My dad actually did say, what are you, a schmuck, and then hit you.

[82] And that was his way of saying, I love you.

[83] So you got to understand you as right there.

[84] But that is a form of love.

[85] I get that.

[86] There's a real similarity.

[87] I'm going to do it for you, ready?

[88] Vot, are you a schmock?

[89] Swat.

[90] It's funny.

[91] Yeah, go ahead.

[92] You got the same thing, right?

[93] The Irish, I've always thought.

[94] If you want to love a child, you don't hug it, you hit it.

[95] Exactly.

[96] No, no. In the back of that, with, what are you, a schmach?

[97] There's such a similarity between and a kinship between the Irish and the Jews.

[98] And I have found that all my life, so many of my friends are Jewish because I feel like they understand me. because growing up Irish and growing up Jewish feels like it's almost the same thing.

[99] Here's the one rule of politics.

[100] When somebody introduces another ethnicity, you stop and you've pulled back because it can only get you in trouble.

[101] I'll just believe what you just said.

[102] I'm not touching it after this.

[103] I'm going to stay within the tribe, the Jews.

[104] You're afraid to comment and maybe insult the Irish?

[105] Is that you're afraid of?

[106] The great thing about being Irish is that you can't insult us.

[107] When someone tells an Irish joke about the Irish being drunk or stupid.

[108] Everyone in the room laughs of every other ethnicity and no one laughs louder than the Irish.

[109] So how many times have you come in?

[110] Actually, actually, screaming about what a...

[111] Daily.

[112] Daily.

[113] Daily.

[114] Daily.

[115] Yeah, potato eating, you know, beer chugging, uh, lout what you call me. She's clearly never run for office because I'm not touching it in the city of Chicago, not a chance.

[116] That's smart.

[117] So here's what I would, I do think, actually, this is a very serious subject given what's happened to the American family.

[118] And so let's put the manuals aside.

[119] and you know there's this great market yeah i just did it for you mark twain has this great comment at 13 i concluded my father was a fool by 18 i was shocked what he learned in only five years and i would say this is a father now with three children uh two in the navy uh one uh is you know just graduated princeton is teaching yoga uh and is co -authored a book on uh national security and climate change and you know i can't say it was a straight line to there but there's i i totally am against this oh quality time and all this crap you build a house a love and the value of education and the rest is up to the children you know you tell them second is when i even when i was mayor chief of staff i used to say this when i was chief of staff uh white house is family friendly to the first family and it's like a mess but we set up rules when i first Amy and I did this together.

[120] The family will have time and the work will then get scheduled around the family, not the family around work.

[121] And you make priorities.

[122] Simple things.

[123] We had, every Friday night, Shabbat, we had dinner as a family.

[124] And whoever did the best grade that week in reports got to invite a friend.

[125] Second, we had three nights the rest of the week Sunday and two nights during the week.

[126] Dinner is a family.

[127] All electronics out.

[128] Second, mid -December, if it's like early January, we went on a familycation just as a family.

[129] Third, we used to go for walks on the beach as a family and stuff like that, or I take individual to kids.

[130] I mean, he did the same thing.

[131] And you prioritize kids.

[132] When the kids call at the office, nobody's allowed to answer the phone but me. And if I'm in a meeting, I will tell them, but you, my staff cannot communicate.

[133] The children know they're my priority.

[134] My kids, when I ran for office, never once appeared in a commercial.

[135] And you just, you build.

[136] And when I used to read, let's say I was working.

[137] after dinner, I would do my work, mainly reading and I were on the phone, in one of the rooms when they're doing homework, just because you're present.

[138] And being more present than being either a drone or a helicopter is a better thing.

[139] And those are like lessons I learned from my parents.

[140] And I think that, because I do actually, I have a lot of feelings about this.

[141] And I also, and I think this is actually a serious subject.

[142] Then we'll get to the neuroses.

[143] the three Emanuel brothers live, not with love, not with that we live in fear of failure.

[144] That's the number one rule.

[145] And we'll bring shame to the Emanuel name if you failed.

[146] And I think that's actually a big motivator of ours, beyond the fact that we, Zika and I hate Ari, which is also a very healthy thing to do.

[147] Yeah.

[148] But I do.

[149] We all hate ours.

[150] Yeah.

[151] And we also filled with a lot of self -loving.

[152] But I do, I really think this is a very, because a lot of, you know, quality time, and people try to buy their kids' love with material things, when kids are really emotionally needy.

[153] The other thing is I also, as a father of two daughters, they would probably disagree with me. I think a father's relationship with their daughter starting around, while it's always important, starting really in 12, is more important than a mother's.

[154] And I took Alana on a bike trip in Europe.

[155] Leah and I went to Israel together for her body.

[156] I think those are really, because a daughter then as identity of herself without having to have a boyfriend or another partner to bring that identity.

[157] So I have a lot, I mean, I think this is really...

[158] This is fascinating.

[159] I struck a nerve here, and there's a lot of wisdom.

[160] Because I actually think people don't deal with, like, probably the most important issue facing our country, which is the breakdown of the family.

[161] I don't care how many parents, but there is a value here that cannot be dismissed.

[162] I have this theory, a dumb it down theory.

[163] You didn't want to do this show like this, but this is really what I care about.

[164] You seem angry whenever I speak.

[165] No, I'm just angry.

[166] We'll analyze this later.

[167] Every time I start to speak, you come in with something, but I'm going to fight you back.

[168] Yeah, we have that in common.

[169] We have that, yeah.

[170] Which is ROM, I agree with you.

[171] We're not on a first name basis, yes.

[172] You stay with that bad ambassador.

[173] And I'll give you permission to get to ROM, okay?

[174] How about Ambassador, and then if we really get, like, just Ambie.

[175] You're my pal, Amby.

[176] Ambassador, your excellency.

[177] Your excellent, your most real excellence.

[178] And, dude, when I let you get to ROM, we'll know, okay, until that?

[179] Okay.

[180] But you're allowed to call me dude.

[181] All right, this is fantastic.

[182] What a great fucked up relationship this is.

[183] I will tell you.

[184] All in favor say I, I have it.

[185] Oh, I see how things work in Chicago.

[186] You just steamrollered me. No, I agree with you.

[187] I agree with you completely that it's, dumb it down is my theory a little bit, which is it's time around with your kids, even when I'm annoying them.

[188] And being a total pain in the ass, I know that, yes, this is our time together.

[189] I'm really bugging this shit out of my kids.

[190] This is golden time.

[191] I agree with you completely.

[192] I will give you one anecdote when I was mayor.

[193] I think Lana was...

[194] I'm just going to clarify, mayor of Chicago.

[195] I'm just going to give everyone the download, you know.

[196] Well, Chicago is the center of the world and center of the country, so let's just go there, mayor.

[197] Sure.

[198] Dumb mayor.

[199] So we went to a black hawks game, and she brought two friends, etc. I was wearing a flannel shirt at the hockey team.

[200] And the next day, a reporter from a major network was, ridiculous, says it, well, on social media, you were ridicule for wearing a, not wearing a black hawk jersey, you were wearing a flannel shirt, etc. And I said, you know, that's interesting.

[201] I think it's kind of cool that my daughter at 15 still wanted to be with her father, but I suppose what I was wearing as a shirt was really, really important.

[202] Yeah.

[203] Yeah.

[204] And there was this, you know, I think she was willing to go with her friends, with her dad, who's a dork to a hockey game.

[205] That would have been like something we would have said, hey, that's important and that's a good sign.

[206] No, let's talk about my flannel shirt, which was a very nice flannel shirt, by the way, and I wanted to say I got it from rag and bone, and I was really proud of it.

[207] Are you getting money from rag and bones right now?

[208] No, but I would like to.

[209] Okay.

[210] I can arrange that.

[211] Don't.

[212] When until the ambassador thing is over, then all gifts are accepted.

[213] Yeah, here's a great story.

[214] That's funny, I gave you a gold Rolex when you got here and you put it in your pocket and said, Mum's the word.

[215] Every Thursday.

[216] You said, keep it on the down low, Brian.

[217] Every Thursday, I get a little yellow folder, and you're supposed sign these forms for the State Department.

[218] Here, I'm going to get fired, right?

[219] We only went five minutes in.

[220] And it's for gifts above $25.

[221] Okay?

[222] And you have to sign it for ethics reform and record it.

[223] Right.

[224] So one day I come in and there's like 40 forms.

[225] And usually it's like four or five for, you know, and I go, I'm signing, I'm signing.

[226] And I'm like, I'm feeling rushed.

[227] I got phone calls.

[228] I got to get, I go, what is this?

[229] And they go, well, these are the, we got a lot of gifts because of this reception.

[230] I said, I'm not signing these.

[231] They go, oh, you got to sign this State Department.

[232] I said, I'm not signing these.

[233] And they go, well, You have to sign.

[234] I said, let me just be really clear.

[235] I'm from Chicago.

[236] You want to buy me?

[237] It starts with seven zeros.

[238] I'm not doing this.

[239] If you think I'm selling America out for Croatian sparkling white wine, you do not.

[240] I am from Chicago.

[241] We have a number, and it starts with seven zeros.

[242] That's incredible.

[243] I said, you auto pen this ethics report, man. I am not signing this.

[244] I'm not reading it.

[245] By contrast.

[246] And America's not going for a chief Croatian.

[247] I mean, I love Croatian sparkling white wine, but it's not going for it, okay?

[248] I could so easily, you could purchase my loyalty with a candied ham.

[249] That's why I can't be in politics.

[250] I could be bought so cheaply.

[251] And later on, when they were having the hearings to take me down, it would be, did you, did you sell out our government for a ham, a Harrington ham?

[252] I did, Your Honor.

[253] I would like to be, take a rag and bone on November 8th, 2024.

[254] We'll take care of it.

[255] All right.

[256] So it is also, I wanted to bring this up, because I know this.

[257] about your family, having done some research, which for me is a lot, and that you were encouraged by your parents when you got to the table to be up on what was happening in the world and discuss so that you could discuss it.

[258] Yes.

[259] And it's funny because I know for a fact that being a Kennedy Ophile, that Joe Kennedy Sr. did the same thing with his kids.

[260] When they came to the table, he wanted them to be aware of what was happening in the world so they could discuss it intelligently.

[261] Is that something that, do you feel that that helped you a lot when you were a kid, that you were encouraged, maybe even forced to read up on what was happening in the world and discuss it at the table?

[262] Well, it was, first of all, also don't create a mental image.

[263] It was not just mom, dad, and the three boys.

[264] Right.

[265] Grandpa and grandma lived with us.

[266] Right.

[267] Grandma, my dad's mother moved from Israel to Chicago when we first got born.

[268] So it was never like a quote -unquote Aussie and Harriet nuclear family ever there.

[269] And it was, first of all, it wasn't a discussion.

[270] Screaming was the tone in which you had a discussion and yelling at each other.

[271] In fact, among the three brothers, we will not discuss the movie, Dear Hunter.

[272] It is off limits because it becomes violent between Ari Zika and I. No, we're not going there, even if they're not there.

[273] But why, Deer Hunter, of all the movies?

[274] That's the one you all vehemently disagree on?

[275] We vehemently disagree about a lot.

[276] of things, but that one has become literally taboo, and we can't even discuss it.

[277] This is so great, because the next time you're giving a speak somewhere, I'm going to be in the crowd, I'm going to go, Dear Hunter, Dear Hunter, and just watch you lose it in front of everybody.

[278] Yeah.

[279] On camera.

[280] But back to the family.

[281] And first of all, the first most important thing was the fact that we all ate together and we all sat there.

[282] But it was actually, you had to be prepared starting at a very, very early age.

[283] And there wasn't like a kid's table and an adult table or kids' discussion told me. we also had like in the summer June first week you had to write the three books down that you were going to read that summer and then at the end of the summer you had to pick the one book and lead a family dinner conversation on that book every child every child and I still read my Zach my oldest son and I we pick books and recommend Lana I try to read a book with each child just me and them and then say but dinner conversations the word conversation is deceptive I would not call it a conversation conversation.

[284] You didn't listen to somebody else.

[285] You just yelled at them about your opinion.

[286] Right.

[287] Okay.

[288] We, you know, here's a difference.

[289] I'm going to, I'm going to posit a difference maybe.

[290] And this could be just my family, but, um, because there's so many similarities between, uh, a Jewish household and an Irish Catholic household.

[291] But one difference in my opinion, uh, and this is just my own personal experience is we didn't, there was no yelling.

[292] Oh, uh, there was all, you guys just, it just went into the colon.

[293] Yeah.

[294] I'm not kidding.

[295] It went.

[296] It went.

[297] It went into the colonoscopy.

[298] I could also be a doctor.

[299] Who knew that?

[300] That was so quick without examining or touching your abdomen, and I knew that.

[301] I'm telling you, everything gets repressed.

[302] Yeah, I don't know, yeah.

[303] And, yeah, my first colonoscopy, they opened me up and you heard my father's screams.

[304] Come out of my ass.

[305] From 1969.

[306] Get in here, you son.

[307] All came out in a torrent.

[308] Here it is, ready?

[309] And the reason it goes there, as opposed to us.

[310] You guys get it out.

[311] No, no, no. Here's the difference.

[312] You guys hold it, and then on Sundays, you just tell the priest and it's done, you're absolved, and you go another week.

[313] We have to hold it all the way to Yom Kippeer, and you get a whole year of holding this stuff.

[314] So it actually does burst out quicker because a year is too long.

[315] You guys just get a week, and it's how long you can hold guilt.

[316] But see, this is interesting because...

[317] Don't you think that's true?

[318] No, I think the difference between a week and a year?

[319] I'm not going to give too much credit to the priest, because I would freeze up.

[320] When I would get into the confessional, and I've talked about this before.

[321] Let's unpack that.

[322] I would get into the, watch it, watch it, buddy.

[323] That's my religion.

[324] I told you.

[325] I would go into the confessional.

[326] There goes my electoral account.

[327] I would freeze up because I would forget all the things that I was mad about or had transgressed.

[328] And I would lie.

[329] And I'd say, I stole a lawnmower.

[330] When I didn't, I never did.

[331] I would try to make it more interesting than is.

[332] But Sona, you come from, I believe it's Armenian.

[333] I've never really yelled into this.

[334] Yes, you know it's Armenian.

[335] I do.

[336] Oh, my God, she's so Armenian.

[337] But you guys, you scream at each other and you're just having a conversation, right?

[338] Yeah.

[339] Oh, yeah.

[340] Well, we're naturally very loud.

[341] And then when we do talk, we talk over each other.

[342] It's the same with your family.

[343] Yeah.

[344] So this voice is not recorded for the podcast.

[345] People can just hear it from the booth.

[346] Amy said when we were first, she came to her first family male, my wife.

[347] She said, why are you in R .A. fighting?

[348] I said, we're not fighting.

[349] No, no, no. You were fighting.

[350] I go, no, we were talking.

[351] We're talking.

[352] And so it's very, when people come outside, it's very.

[353] like, this family needs Blue Cross Blue Shield.

[354] That's all that I was saying.

[355] And it has to cover mental health, okay?

[356] So I want to go over your resume very quickly, inform the listeners.

[357] You were one of the very, very early advisor to the Clintons, to Bill Clinton back in Arkansas, correct?

[358] I was part of the paint store.

[359] There's a group of us that when we first got there, the campaign was in a paint store.

[360] That's what we call ourselves the paint store, clacks.

[361] And so what year would that be that you...

[362] I moved down in October 91.

[363] Okay.

[364] And he announces in October.

[365] Okay.

[366] So you are working very early in the Clinton administration, then chief of staff.

[367] Senior advisor to Bill Clinton.

[368] Yep.

[369] I was then a congressman.

[370] Second term, I was chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

[371] Third term, I was caucus chair.

[372] Fourth term, I was a member elected for an hour.

[373] And then I became chief of staff to President Obama's first chief of staff.

[374] And how long were you with President Obama?

[375] 21 months, but if you counted, 21 months, that would be the whole thing from chief of staff.

[376] And then when I go out and I run for mayor of the city of Chicago, serve two terms.

[377] And then I took a break.

[378] And then I'm ambassador for 20 months, although for the Japanese, it feels like 20 years, but 20 months.

[379] They're slowly getting used to.

[380] I'm going to say this.

[381] Let me jump ahead to the ambassador rule.

[382] When you were announced or nominated or put forth as an ambassador, to Japan, there are many people who thought this is an odd choice because your style is so tell it like it is, kind of pugnacious, and people thought this will not be a good mix maybe with Japanese culture, and yet that has not seemed to have been a problem for you.

[383] The Japanese people kind of like, am I getting it right?

[384] They like your...

[385] Three things.

[386] One, I evaluated all the advice I was getting, you know, you should, you know, Japanese are more reserved, more quiet.

[387] And I realized, you know what, being inauthentic was not going to work.

[388] And I said, I can be myself.

[389] And I've been in many, many positions given my titles and roles I had to do in jobs.

[390] I know where you have a feel for where the line was.

[391] I haven't crossed it.

[392] And it was better to be authentic.

[393] Second is, and a serious note, I mean, obviously big thing about taking trains.

[394] I've taken trains my whole life.

[395] Japanese do love their trains.

[396] And I admire them, and I'm on them all the time.

[397] time.

[398] But I did this study as an office to do this.

[399] Give me images over the last year of U .S. government officials or pre -COVIDs of what's happened.

[400] And we like an American's, seven black sedans drive up.

[401] You get out of the back of the car.

[402] The secret service is running around.

[403] You walk into a building.

[404] An hour later, you walk out.

[405] You don't say anything at the camera.

[406] You get in the black sedans.

[407] And everybody drives out.

[408] I said, that's it.

[409] We're not doing this.

[410] I said, I'm going to walk to my meetings in the government.

[411] We're going to take trains everywhere.

[412] And I said, and when people from our government come, like Bill Nelson from NASA, he did a town hall with high school kids.

[413] And then you have to do one thing interacting with the public of Japan because we are not going to act as arrogant as we are as a superpower.

[414] We're going to, where our public engagement is going to change.

[415] When Secretary of Lincoln came to Japan, he landed in Tokyo, and took a train to the G7 foreign minister's meeting because you are going to engage the public where they live and we're going to show a different face of America.

[416] And then third, I do think the Japanese kind of look at me like, you know, when a dog slightly hears a different sound and they turn their head, they kind of look at me like, we never knew somebody could be this kinetic.

[417] I mean, like, they're kind of, they're kind of both repulsed and attracted at the same time by the amount of energy and stuff like that.

[418] So, I mean, and it's worked so far.

[419] I will say, there's one caveat.

[420] The trains in Japan are awesome.

[421] I mean, I would eat, I would eat on those trains, I would sleep on those trains, I would live on those trains.

[422] Those trains are absolutely gorgeous and they, they run to the second.

[423] Want to hear a fact?

[424] Yeah.

[425] Okay.

[426] So the Shinkinson is their high speed, 150, 175 miles an hour.

[427] Just, and you put a coffee cup, nothing spells.

[428] Right to the brim.

[429] Right.

[430] All year, all Shinkinson runs all year.

[431] How many minutes.

[432] Are they late?

[433] And I said minutes.

[434] Three and a half.

[435] I mean, I'm like, no disrespect.

[436] I'm a big user of the Chicago Transitor Authority.

[437] That's between the mantra stop and the Irving Park stop, okay?

[438] That's on a day for a train.

[439] And I'm running down, I think, a great system in Chicago.

[440] Three and a half minutes.

[441] And people get irritated when it's a little late.

[442] I said, like, you guys got a chill man. This is 10 seconds, but it's that efficient of a system.

[443] And it is, there's like the world's public transportation system, and then there's Japan.

[444] It's in a different class.

[445] A total, it's one of the marvels of the world.

[446] I'm not kidding.

[447] It's just an incredible, clean, efficient, well -run, and respectful of you as a customer systems.

[448] It's really great.

[449] And now they want to build it to 220 miles.

[450] I'm like good at 170.

[451] We can't go five, okay?

[452] It's really an incredible system.

[453] I'm with you.

[454] Wait, 225 miles an hour?

[455] They're building a new mag left.

[456] They want to do it.

[457] They're testing it now in Nagoya.

[458] It's really incredible.

[459] I'm moving to Japan.

[460] Let me tell you.

[461] I mean, I'm telling you.

[462] When I've been there, I've absolutely loved it.

[463] I would love to be ambassador if that's possible.

[464] Oh, no, no, no. I don't think you can.

[465] Oh, come on.

[466] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's what we're, after you step down.

[467] I, I, I, what about it?

[468] I don't see the background check working.

[469] I just don't.

[470] There's only, there's maybe 35 ,000 hours of offensive footage.

[471] Other than that, I don't see a problem.

[472] Let me see this.

[473] Compare it to the U .S. Senator voting on you, you're going to do just fine.

[474] Okay?

[475] I mean, I will say it's a process.

[476] It is, I'll give you one other thing.

[477] And I always said, they say, what have you been shocked at it, whatever?

[478] And I came from the city of Chicago's mayor, and this is true of any other big city in America.

[479] But I created these safe passage routes so a kid could walk eight blocks straight to school, not thinking of their safety, but their studies.

[480] And we created these routes, deployed people on the, the south side, west side of city, Chicago.

[481] In Japan, little kids, five years old, backpack this big, they're this big, in the inner school uniform, little baseball cap.

[482] They walk eight blocks to school by themselves.

[483] Get on a train, the ones that we love.

[484] They put their car down.

[485] Their parents get an instant text that their child went through the turnstown.

[486] They cross streets and they raise their hand above their head.

[487] The car stop.

[488] They know exactly where to cross.

[489] And they go, eight, six, seven blocks to school.

[490] When they're let out, they're let out.

[491] The principal's not standing there, 20 parents running around.

[492] It's the single most beautiful thing in the world.

[493] And I always say to the job, you don't see it because it's there every day.

[494] You come from Chicago and it stands out with incredible beauty.

[495] I mean, when I also got there, a parent, usually the mother is 20 feet, 30 feet ahead, and walking.

[496] And the child is walking behind.

[497] She doesn't look, doesn't turn around.

[498] not worried about a child being snatched, abducted, not worried about sexual harassment of a child.

[499] They have their childhood.

[500] It's not stolen from it.

[501] It's one of the most stunningly, beautiful, gorgeous things in the world.

[502] I just...

[503] What do you attribute that to?

[504] Is that cultural?

[505] Is it...

[506] What do we attribute it to?

[507] Because obviously there are certain, obviously, different policies, and that gets into a whole other conversation about it's a society.

[508] you're not allowed to have a gun, you know, but there's so much, but it sounds to me that goes so much deeper than that.

[509] What is it?

[510] It is, that is true.

[511] It's, yes, they don't have guns, etc., but that's not, that's not it.

[512] I don't think, and this is, again, I'm an outsider, I don't can't, I think there's a respect for life and respect for human beings and also a self -respect.

[513] And I think it's a shared sense of community and obligation to each other.

[514] And it's, I, that's, an outsider who doesn't speak the language, which has a translator, ask people constantly.

[515] But my sense is there is a value put on the individual as a part of a community and enshrined into the DNA then of the society.

[516] So do the laws help that?

[517] 100%.

[518] Do they start there?

[519] No. They're an emphasis on top of something more fundamental in the culture.

[520] I mean, there's also, besides the training of the kids, there's, you know, we can't get people in the office by 11 a .m. They can't get people out of the office until 11 p .m. I mean, I walk home up from dinners, and people are coming out of the office at 11 p .m. They work nonstop.

[521] The other thing that is really beautiful, or I think is I didn't like it at first, but you go to a restaurant, you walk out, and the chef slash owner is there, and they bow to thank you for coming, and they hand you a gift.

[522] No tipping is allowed anywhere.

[523] That's their job, and they want to make sure you not as a solution, customer, but as a client, enjoyed it.

[524] It's really stunningly beautiful.

[525] Now, they have a challenge on, they have a department, a cabinet position for loneliness.

[526] Yes.

[527] So not everything is perfect.

[528] I'm familiar with this.

[529] I did a trip to, uh, to Tokyo, one of my travel shows.

[530] And while I was there, I would, we discovered the concept that you can rent family members because it's a real issue.

[531] So I rented wife, daughter and grandfather and then I started and it's all perfectly legit.

[532] They just hang out with you.

[533] Nothing creepy happens.

[534] But it was so great because I ended up talking to the grandfather about all the things that bother me about my father and it was very therapeutic and he didn't speak English, so he understood none of it, but smiled with this beaming smile.

[535] And I felt like it was worth six years of therapy.

[536] I left, I left those people, and I was like, I miss that guy.

[537] I think you scared them.

[538] I did probably sprighted them.

[539] Yeah, I think you really scared.

[540] I'm a very strange looking man. I'll stand out.

[541] Also, the one other thing is, you know, you go to a restaurant and they'll explain to you, oh, this fish is caught in this bay, and this is the only time of year.

[542] And I'm like, and the corn is grown, or, you know, the rice is here or the vegetables.

[543] And I said, you know, in America the big thing is farm to table I said you guys been doing it for like 800 years you may want to market this thing okay okay we think we've discovered something like you've been doing for 800 years okay yeah we came up with it 11 years ago it didn't exist until somebody grew a piece of corn in the backyard called farm to table okay this is a thing because there's something this is a unique opportunity I have to talk to someone who's had these very different positions of power.

[544] And I'm trying to understand, obviously, the world internationally is a frightening place right now.

[545] I maintain it's always been a frightening place, just that we have more access to all the information.

[546] More frightening people.

[547] Yeah, but it is, without a doubt, we're facing all these challenges.

[548] And I agree with you.

[549] I think you've gone out of your way to identify certain parties, because there's a tendency to go, well, it's gray areas, black and white, and you are identifying certain regimes, certain parties, whether it's Putin, China, you're saying, look, these people are bullies and we have to stand up to these people, and this is a value of the United States of America, when I think a lot of people are feeling a little wishy -washy about that.

[550] Is that a fair assessment?

[551] Yeah, I mean, my, I'm very specific about China and in the recent past Russia, 100%, because, and it's not just, they're bullies, but they're also, look, there's, I don't mean to make it binary, but in this case, it is because they've chosen, which is you either can have a rules -based system that applies to all, or you can have the raw exercise of power that applies to the powerful.

[552] And I don't think you want to live in a world where the raw exercise of power.

[553] Second is Putin and, well, Russia and China have decided to militarize their maps.

[554] Okay?

[555] And they're going to execute those maps, their vision of the world, where the boundaries are, where the lines are by armed forces.

[556] That is not the world we want to live in.

[557] Now, we are not a perfect judge of the rules.

[558] We have violated them.

[559] We have been imperfect.

[560] But we have more often than not abided by them and more often than not held other countries accountable when they violated.

[561] violate them.

[562] And when you don't have American power, the country, the world does feel like it's office access as you do right now.

[563] We're sitting here today talking.

[564] And that is why we have a responsibility.

[565] And then when it comes to situation, I'll give you an example of the most recent thing about China.

[566] You know, in Japan, the prime minister did a cabinet shakeup and announced, I'm going to have a new minister of foreign affairs and a new minister of defense.

[567] And he announced it to the world.

[568] They barely have an armed forces.

[569] Now they're building it up.

[570] China, in that same period of time, the foreign minister and the defense minister both went missing.

[571] Gone.

[572] And they have 500 nuclear head weapons.

[573] I'm sorry.

[574] You want to be a world power?

[575] China has a lot to contribute to the world.

[576] But if you have 500 nuclear weapons, who's in charge?

[577] Because, God forbid, something happens in the next three weeks.

[578] We'd like to know, is it an 800 collect call or who are we calling here?

[579] Right.

[580] And I'm sorry, this is not the secretary.

[581] of agriculture or the head of the environmental agency.

[582] This is the two people, two positions that outwardly face the world.

[583] You have an obligation with 500 nuclear weapons.

[584] Just like, who are we calling?

[585] Are we doing on a zip call?

[586] How are we doing this?

[587] Right.

[588] And we're going to call it out because this is not, you want to lie about your unemployed youth?

[589] You don't want to release the data?

[590] Do you think that somehow the youth are going to feel better?

[591] Fine.

[592] Go do that to your youth.

[593] But when it comes to the minister of defense, you don't get to say, I ain't telling you.

[594] Since China knew that I was doing your show today, today they announced he's no longer the minister of defense because they knew we were doing this show.

[595] And they were really scared of that we were going to be so prescient.

[596] The Chinese are terrified at me and have been for a long time.

[597] That's going to get you, ready?

[598] That is your opening line for your confirmation, Harry.

[599] Okay, there it is.

[600] My name is Conan O 'Brien and the Chinese are terrified of me. Okay, oh, 90 to two, 90 to two, there you'll get confirmed.

[601] You've got to get the two to show off.

[602] Someone's going to say there's this footage of you in 1998, jumping into caramel in a thaw.

[603] No, but here's the thing.

[604] And my thing is, on China, they put a map out.

[605] Yeah.

[606] India, official complaint.

[607] Indonesia, official complaint.

[608] Vietnam official complaint.

[609] Philippines official complaint.

[610] Japan official complaint.

[611] Malaysia official complaint.

[612] that is an incredible map to put out and everybody in the neighborhood doesn't like it and we have Xi has made a decision to have a rigid as past about China's great past we've just gone through Putin's desire to be Catherine and Peter the Great all wrapped up in one and that's the 17th and 18th century I hate to see if they go back to the 15th century so forget it we're going to call them out and here's the deal you want to do the raw exercise of power fine we're going to be for rules and guess what And here's the other thing that Americans have to remember.

[613] We have an immigration problem of refugee.

[614] People want to be part of our world.

[615] Young men, the future of Russia, Moscow and St. Petersburg, they've left.

[616] Beijing, Shanghai, left.

[617] Yeah.

[618] There's a young woman just died.

[619] It's brain dead in a hospital in Tehran because they grabbed her in a subway.

[620] They're dying on the streets.

[621] Nobody, there is no immigration problem in Iran, China, or Russia.

[622] They have an emigration problem, not an immigration problem.

[623] People, we forget this.

[624] Breaking news.

[625] Freedom is seductive.

[626] And people want to be a part of it.

[627] Yeah.

[628] And we suck a lot of times because we don't allow a lot of people that live here to be part of that.

[629] And we have to work on it.

[630] That said, do never lose sight of how powerful this country is in the values we have.

[631] And people want to be a part of it.

[632] And I'm going to call out China and call out Russia because they need to be called out.

[633] Let me ask you specifically.

[634] Now, that felt therapeutic, so thank you for that.

[635] We're gonna play music under it.

[636] Okay.

[637] Can I get a little...

[638] But not the music you want.

[639] I would like piano.

[640] Yeah.

[641] A little Philip glass piece or something like that.

[642] It's not gonna be what you want.

[643] Well, wait a second.

[644] It's gonna be Jethro Tull.

[645] Okay.

[646] ask you about this because something I've been thinking about recently, which is obviously I have very strong opinions that we need to help Ukraine as much as possible and that Putin has to be stopped.

[647] That is a very clear issue to me. But as a history buff, and I know you're a history buff, I know that there's something in the American DNA that has always made us very reluctant to get involved.

[648] We were very reluctant to get involved in World War I, very reluctant to get involved in World War II, and it was clearly a moral imperative.

[649] And we are as a country, the United States has always wanted to say, we want to take our toys and go home, we just want to stay here, let's not get involved, it costs too much money.

[650] When the money involved in helping some of these countries is a fraction of what we spend on other things, which I think are probably less important, What is it about Americans?

[651] You think that's changing, or do you think that that's something it's just in the DNA of being an American that we would rather not, given our druthers, get involved?

[652] Well, it does go, I mean, to go back in history, it goes back, I mean, 100 years, and you got more than 100 years, rather, to the founding of not being involved in Europe's wars, not being involved in other wars.

[653] Now, it does change post -World War II, where there's a decision.

[654] I just finished this great book on Max Hastings' books on Korea, and I did not realize how significant a drop off post -World War II was in the defense that clearly you could say from a deterrence standpoint everybody points to the Atchinson speech, but we actually were caught flat -footed and not capable right after World War as it really did the Korea War militarily.

[655] We weren't prepared.

[656] Not only not prepared, but defense -wise, how significant a drawdown that was.

[657] So we almost, you could argue in the first five years, repeated the same thing, mistakes of post -war War I. But Americans don't, they don't want to be obligated and worried with the rest of the world, but it keeps knocking on our front door.

[658] So we start this process of, and we're in the middle right now, the early stages of that process again, post the Cold War, where things were working accordingly, and we let our deterrence guard down.

[659] and now we're in the mad dash rush, both in Europe, the Mideast and Indo -Pacific of getting our deterrence back up to where it needs to be so we don't have these type of wars.

[660] Yeah, and I think it's very easy politically for people when there's times of trouble to say, why are we spending money over there?

[661] Why are we spending money on those countries when America should come first without thinking a little bit further in thinking, no, this is in our vital interests?

[662] Well, I actually, I would go back.

[663] I think that's a false.

[664] choice, which is there are things that we should have been spending money on at home.

[665] Yes, okay, but it wasn't coming at the expense of spending and doing the type of things you need to do at home overseas.

[666] And for a long time, we didn't make the type of investment.

[667] And I'm going to do a plug here for my boss, President Biden, because I do think the type of things that he's doing on whether you talk chips, infrastructure spending in the United States, or for that matter, on climate change type of investments, those are desperately needed for America, desperately needed for our leadership.

[668] But they don't come.

[669] from the same pot of resources or somehow mean you can't invest in certain things here when you're making sure that Ukraine does not disappear as a country, a language, a people, and an identity separate from distinct because the best thing we can do to crumble Russia is to show a successful Slavic nation on its border, democratically, politically, society -wise, and economically.

[670] And that is what he lives in fear of, is that, in fact, is when you look at Poland and its success, you look at the rest of Eastern Europe, Lafia, Lithuania, Estonia, and then if Ukraine join that, the mirror, it would be a house of mirrors for him, and he would, and all his warts in all, would it be exposed to the Russian people?

[671] I was shocked that, I mean, obviously he's got things locked down, but I, I don't know what...

[672] Not as best as you think.

[673] No, no, well, exactly.

[674] I would, I would have thought that a recent insurrection by his top military, I would have thought that that would have weakened him more.

[675] Maybe it has.

[676] I don't know.

[677] But I'm kind of stunned that Putin probably, I mean, he does, as you said, admires the czars.

[678] He probably has it set up that he's impregnable.

[679] There's one thing this is true about Putin and Xi.

[680] We used to think of this, and we have to update this.

[681] We used to think of the gulag you get sent away.

[682] They take you out.

[683] because of the phone and technology, the gulag comes to you.

[684] You don't go away to the gulag.

[685] It comes to your front door, into your house, and on your phone.

[686] You make a phone call, they know about it.

[687] You text, they know about it.

[688] Not just who, what, and what you said.

[689] When you go and you're at a scene, God forbid, you're at a scene where there's a protest, they know you were there.

[690] So the gulag is not a place you go.

[691] It goes with you wherever you are.

[692] And that's how they have perfected the state.

[693] operation and we have to start changing the way we think about and that's why I'm not saying they're absolutely secure internally they have mastered the security system in a way that we not even begun to think about you did come in here with several phones yes I did and in fact I want to make sure that actually the Communist Party is meeting now can you speak a little louder please Hi, Conan here Your greatest fear But that's got to be Government and family And another one for my mother Someone that's not charged That phone's from 1988 It's a giant brick with an antenna That's from mom That's what you know Chuck Schumer has that flip phone Why do you use that?

[694] So his mother can't call him.

[695] Okay.

[696] That's why.

[697] I want to bring up Israel.

[698] Obviously, this is incredibly complex conversation.

[699] And a complex conversation for anybody who's, I mean, you know, it's generational.

[700] Anybody called Ram Israel -Emmanuel.

[701] Yeah, it's a very complicated conversation.

[702] He's Italian.

[703] Yeah, yeah.

[704] You're Italian whenever you need to be.

[705] I'm going to give you this.

[706] I used to say in the mornings, in the Clinton White House, I would go in and Leon Panetta was the chief of staff, and I would go in and I start 7 a .m. He and I were the first you to get there.

[707] And I was screaming.

[708] Leanne goes, and then my hands are flying at Leanne and go, what are you Italian?

[709] I go, Italian to date your daughter, he goes, you're not that Italian.

[710] I just look, look up at me, you go, you're not that Italian, okay?

[711] No, you're Italian, but not that Italian.

[712] So, Rahm Israel -Emmanuel.

[713] That's the name there.

[714] So let's talk about this.

[715] So obviously what's happened in Israel and what's happening right now in Gaza is dreadful.

[716] And this has been a passionate interest of yours, your entire life.

[717] It's part of your family legacy.

[718] How are you feeling about things right now?

[719] It's like I have 600 feelings.

[720] And I think that's just a good start.

[721] I'm amazingly depressed.

[722] I'm angry.

[723] And my anger doesn't have just one audience.

[724] And pained.

[725] I mean, I don't even think I'm scratching the surface.

[726] I mean, I start, so one is having worked on the Oslo Accords with President Clinton, the Y plantation, one of the more memorable times was going to Akaba.

[727] Jordan watching the Israeli army and the King Hussein and Yitzhak were being signed a peace agreement.

[728] One of the most beautiful things I saw as in public life was when they played the national anthem, the Israeli military leadership facing the Jordanian military stood at attention.

[729] And when they played Hatikva, the Israeli national anthem that was reciprocated.

[730] I thought it was a stunning way to end a war and end hostilities to see two armies.

[731] stand at attention and to the other country's national anthem stand in full honor and respect of that.

[732] Now, I kind of describe myself as a security hawk and a dove on peace.

[733] That's kind of, and I think the abandonment of, by both parties, and I think more abandonment by the Palestinians, when you look at all the opportunities they could have had, by the Palestinian leadership, not the Palestinian people.

[734] I think the Palestinian people, from my understanding, the last to give up on peace.

[735] I think their leadership abandoned it and never, you can't sign a peace agreement or Oslo courts and two weeks later blowing up buses in Tel Aviv.

[736] Just, you either got peace, you know, as Yogi Berr said, when you get to a fork in the road, take it and they didn't do it.

[737] Now, that said, there are leaders in Israel who also walked away from it.

[738] That said, 1 ,400 citizens of the state of Israel in their homes were raped, murdered to kill.

[739] decapitated in a total violation of their rights and what we believe in.

[740] And no government would allow that to happen to any citizen.

[741] And so I'm like, and I don't think I have a singular emotion.

[742] I have not only multiple, I have contradictory emotions.

[743] I mean, when I was back in Chicago, it was as you probably saw, a young Palestinian child was murdered.

[744] And I called the parents.

[745] And I reached out to the father and I talked to the father and I just be, no parents should have a child killed because of ethnicity.

[746] and so you ache as a human being.

[747] That said, a state exists, you know, the first responsibility of a state is the security of its citizens, and you violated that.

[748] And for Israel in that neighborhood, deterrence, we were just talking about it as it rates to the United States.

[749] Deterance is, you know, your first and foremost responsibility is deterrence, deterrence, and I'm sorry, they're going to restore returns.

[750] And I get that, and it's unfortunate because there's just going to be a lot, a lot, of loss of human life.

[751] And I also say this, and, you know, Israel acquires weapons to protect its citizens.

[752] Hamas puts its citizens in front to protect its weapons.

[753] That is not a moral equivalence.

[754] It just is not.

[755] And there's a moral difference here.

[756] And you're seeing it play out, and it's going to be horrific.

[757] Now, I could go on and on about this, but I will give you one thread of optimism where the world feels on the lost its axis.

[758] I think not immediately, and it's hard to say because we're sitting here in week two of a horrendous moment.

[759] You know, if you think about 73 is the Yom Kippur War, 79 Israel and Egypt, make peace and disengage.

[760] And it's basically since 79 held through a lot of tribulations.

[761] I think a couple things have occurred.

[762] one, this fallacy that Israel can have a great economy make peace with the global area and ignore the Palestinian that is not true.

[763] Now, whether a Palestinian leadership wanting to show up and make peace that has to come out of this.

[764] I think that may starting to appear.

[765] Second is the idea that you can obliterate Israel or it's not, you know, from basically the Sea of Galilee to the Mediterranean, that also fallacy.

[766] is off.

[767] And I think with the right leadership and coaxing, mainly by the United States, but not absent others responsible, you can get to a place, not immediately, not the first days, not the first year, to a place where you actually make something of this tragedy and tragic moment.

[768] But there's going to have to be a level of deterrence reestablish and a level of security reestablish.

[769] That is a thread that there is a better place.

[770] And I think, out of the rubble you'll get there.

[771] This leads me to a much bigger question I had for you, which is after all these different positions you've held, and you've been in the belly of...

[772] The beast.

[773] You've been in the colon of the beast.

[774] You've been in the lungs of the beast.

[775] You've been in the heart of the beast.

[776] You've migrated from organ to organ in the beast.

[777] I always describe myself as like a 52 % optimist, 51 to 52 % optimist, which is I understand that the world is a terrible place, but I still think that things are slightly better or could be better, and that we are moving very slowly forward.

[778] I think President Obama has the same feeling that history does not progress in a straight line, but progresses.

[779] Where are you in all that?

[780] With your unique perspective?

[781] Well, I mean, as a former ballet dancer, sometimes you take a step forward and sometimes you take a step sideways and sometimes a step back.

[782] So I think with human agency, it gets better.

[783] Without it, it falls backwards.

[784] And there are certain things you can look at and not just because they're scientific, but other things where it has improved.

[785] And so I'm slightly on this side of optimism because if you weren't, you wouldn't get out of bed anymore.

[786] Okay, I am, and going back at least in this because we're talking about this, when I think back, I mean, so I organize the signing on the South Lawn, the day of, et cetera, not the negotiations that was held by the Israelis and the Palestinians.

[787] Was that September 13th, 1993?

[788] Yeah.

[789] You know why I know that date?

[790] Because you're Jewish.

[791] Because I'm very Jewish, very devout, orthodox.

[792] You're a Jew, why me?

[793] I am an Orthodox Jew.

[794] Do you want to be?

[795] And that was the day my late night show started.

[796] And so it gave me the perfect joke for the start of that.

[797] And so in a very so, this is how egotistical I am.

[798] I think of that date, that historic date of peace, and that photograph is the day I started my late night show.

[799] You know, this is so, I always is very.

[800] That's how sick I am.

[801] New York is focused on the world.

[802] I was like, D .C. is focused on power.

[803] And L .A. is focused on itself.

[804] Yeah.

[805] Yeah, it's such a, so here, and I was thinking this historic moment, and I brought my father who fought in the War of Independence for Israel and fought in the Ergon, the right wing underground, and I brought him to the signing.

[806] And I remember going with President Clinton to Akabat for the signing with Jordan, the Y plantation, we'd helicopter every morning up to the Y plantation for the negotiations between that and Yahoo, Arafat, et cetera.

[807] And I wasn't there, but I talked every day to President.

[808] or nearly every day to President Clinton during the Camp David.

[809] And there was a struggle, but you thought there was a ticket to a better place.

[810] And then you look here and you were kind of pulled back.

[811] But in the end of the day, I'm on the, it does get better, but it gets better with human agency.

[812] Yes.

[813] Yeah.

[814] hard work.

[815] And it's interesting you say that about President Obama.

[816] I've seen him sometimes where he's a little on the darker side, too.

[817] I'm sure you.

[818] Not all of us who, when you do that stuff, you're in the end of the day, you kind of come there, but you have some moments of doubt about this whole thing.

[819] You know, it doesn't know, I don't realize Barack Obama was a mupp.

[820] It just gave you, that's a translations in the Oval Office.

[821] Oh, trust me. I have always understood that there were days when Mahatma Gandhi came home and was like, fuck it!

[822] Fuck it!

[823] Fuck it!

[824] Three things.

[825] I used to say at the White House.

[826] I used to say at the White House, you know, like, thank God it's Friday.

[827] Two more workdays till Monday.

[828] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[829] The other thing is a former chief of step.

[830] Now, you go from the east wing to the west wing, that walk.

[831] There's like three oils of George Washington, two of Jefferson.

[832] go next door is the Roosevelt room.

[833] You got Truman's over here.

[834] You know, you have a couple Adams over there.

[835] I'm like, you know what?

[836] We're going to take these down and we're going to put up Philmore, Zach Taylor, and, you know, a couple of these up here because I'm telling you, that walk, east wing to the west wing, the worst walk anywhere in the world.

[837] Because you literally go those 200 feet and they pass Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Monroe, Jackson, right?

[838] Teddy Roosevelt, Franco, Franco, Roosevelt.

[839] I don't know.

[840] I think Zach Taylor was okay.

[841] We can try.

[842] I could be, if you grade it on a curve, let's get Zach Taylor in there.

[843] Let's get Philmore in there.

[844] Then we're doing okay because by the time they get to the Oval Office, it's a mess.

[845] Their head is a total mess.

[846] Better for self -esteem.

[847] You know what they should do?

[848] It's not good for the chief of staff.

[849] They should have a self -esteem room.

[850] Let's get back to who this is important.

[851] That is not good for the chief of staff at 8 a .m. in the morning to go like, we're going for Mount Rushman.

[852] No, no. No, we're going for a highway here in a high school, okay?

[853] We are not going, can you like, what about high school?

[854] Okay, name a high school.

[855] That's a win for you today.

[856] Do we have to do Mount Rushmore again?

[857] It's Saturday at 8 a .m. I mean, come on.

[858] It's a worst walk in, it's literally, everybody talking about the walk of shame.

[859] No, the walk from the east wing to the west wing.

[860] It's a horrible walk.

[861] Take Washington out of here.

[862] We're going to put in here Buchanan, okay?

[863] He hasn't really got enough guys.

[864] Buchanan was bad.

[865] I know it.

[866] All right, all right, I mean, go back to the original site.

[867] Like, yeah, no, Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, put him up.

[868] You know, I mean, so terrible.

[869] Buchanan was bad about giving you something else.

[870] So my middle one, who I love dearly, I love them all, I used to, that was the other thing my mother used to say.

[871] I used to say, you love more than me. She goes, no, I hate you all equally.

[872] That's also a key point.

[873] That's a mother's love right there.

[874] That explains a lot about you.

[875] I said to my mother.

[876] So I said to Alana, you have to start reading history.

[877] You have to start doing this.

[878] I said, Zach and I do this.

[879] So pick a history book.

[880] she gets a she okay she comes back and he says one nation under sex i said okay that you picked it we're going to read it it goes through the sex lives of all the presidents buchanan little known fact gay and it was known at the time written at the time they probably had a different word for it back then they probably did but it's his loved letters to the alabama senator very clear living together very clear it's without a doubt that we actually, when you think of LGBTQ rights, you think of civil rights, you think of women, we were ahead of our times as a country.

[881] People do not give us credit what happened between 1856 and 1860.

[882] We set a standard with James Buchanan.

[883] Now he sucked on everything else, but there, he was, God bless him, he was ahead of his time.

[884] Yeah, yeah.

[885] Well, I'm glad you cleared that up.

[886] Did you know?

[887] Did you know that?

[888] We got a lot of people in here like, Buchanan, gay, and I'm like, Look, Bill Burr, I don't have time to get into that right now.

[889] Did you know that?

[890] I'd heard rumors.

[891] Okay, I'm going to get you.

[892] But, you know, I'm one of those people like, I think it's up to Buchanan to reveal it.

[893] Alabama Senator.

[894] I don't want to out him.

[895] That's his choice.

[896] Well, well, it's amazing to me, it's not only that, is that it was talked about openly and, like, in a society that was clearly not as sophisticated as ours, about, like, whoa.

[897] So, I'm going to send you some books on reading because I know you love presidential history.

[898] I like all kinds of history, but yeah, sure.

[899] I know I will, yeah, I love history.

[900] I read it non -stop.

[901] What's your favorite history book?

[902] If you had to pick one, Desert Island.

[903] No, I'm not going to do that.

[904] So here's what I'll do.

[905] On the Holocaust, I love Daniel Mendelssohn's book, six of six million.

[906] Okay.

[907] So recording of, it's a story of the story of finding, and one of the Pulitzer, it's a great book.

[908] On Civil Rights, there's this great book called The Sword and the Shield.

[909] It's about the history of the relationship between Dr. King and Malcolm X and how they learned from each other.

[910] On Lincoln, I still think Gary Will's book on Gettysburg is how he wove the Declaration Independence into the civil rights, into the Constitution, the fabric of it.

[911] I think that was a brilliant book.

[912] There's like so many good Franklin Dolanore Roosevelt books.

[913] You know a book I go back to a lot?

[914] I think I just read it for the third time was Guns of Off.

[915] August because Barbara Tuckman's book on the beginning of World War I, just because it's all about how humans, this is how humans behave, and this is how humans start a war where millions and millions of people were killed and no one even knew why and no one wanted to go into it.

[916] I don't know, I find that always compelling.

[917] Right now I would read Paris 1919.

[918] Yeah, it's a great book.

[919] And then there's, that is a great book.

[920] And then I think from military history, I love Max Hastings.

[921] I think he's one of the great military historians.

[922] I read a recent great book on the Cuban Missile Crisis, which I think is an important book at this time.

[923] Well, this podcast has always been about getting people to read.

[924] Wait a minute.

[925] That's a different podcast.

[926] How are you doing that?

[927] It's not our podcast.

[928] Our podcast makes people dumber.

[929] But those are great recommendations.

[930] Thanks for taking the time with me. I really appreciate it.

[931] I was against it.

[932] I'm still against it.

[933] And I'm pretty sure.

[934] Let me ask you a question.

[935] Is this hour come down to like three minutes?

[936] It was a short podcast.

[937] Do you guys add this?

[938] We are going to cut this so much.

[939] that you're going to introduce yourself and then you're going to be listing books and then your ass is out the door.

[940] You know, my mother...

[941] Wait, wait, I didn't give my mother your phone number.

[942] No, no, no, no, no, no. Either I get the full run, no edits, or my mother gets your phone number.

[943] You'll get the full run.

[944] Okay.

[945] Can you imagine, do you think I would edit a second of this?

[946] I am terrified of you and your family.

[947] I am thinking of...

[948] I'm thinking of earlifting my mother to Beijing.

[949] I think she'll find...

[950] The system will...

[951] She will be running She will be in the hidden city hiding for Marsha Emanuel Rahm, thank you so much Ambassador Rom.

[952] No, Ambassador M .B. Romm.

[953] No, Ambassador.

[954] You're actually most high.

[955] We bow to you.

[956] Thank you for being here for yelling at me, insulting me, but also bringing us your wisdom.

[957] But both of us are better for it.

[958] No, I'm worse.

[959] That's all okay.

[960] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[961] with Conan O 'Brien, Sonam O 'Sessian, and Matt Gourley.

[962] Produced by me, Matt Gourley.

[963] Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Nick Liao, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf.

[964] Theme song by The White Stripes.

[965] Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.

[966] Take it away, Jimmy.

[967] Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.

[968] Engineering by Eduardo Perez.

[969] Additional production support by Mars Melnik.

[970] Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Bette.

[971] and Brick Con. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode.

[972] Got a question for Conan?

[973] Call the Team Coco hotline at 669 -587 -2847 and leave a message.

[974] It too could be featured on a future episode.

[975] And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.