Shopify President: How To Become A Millionaire For The Price Of A Starbucks Coffee!

[0] One of the greatest hacks for being an ambitious, hard -driving entrepreneur.

[1] And that's why Kylie Jenner is nothing short of brilliant.

[2] Harley Finkelstein is the president of Shopify, one of the largest e -commerce platforms.

[3] Worth over $60 billion.

[4] He's helped scale brands worldwide.

[5] And he's now on a mission to help you start your own business.

[6] About a month into college, I got a call from my mom and said, Dad's been arrested and he's gone to jail.

[7] College is over.

[8] And I was shifted into this survival mode.

[9] I had no choice.

[10] I think it's a very powerful driver.

[11] I met Toby around that time.

[12] The initial idea had lots of other competitors.

[13] This was not this massive novel thing.

[14] We just did it better.

[15] And that was how shop I was born.

[16] There's a perception that entrepreneurship is very expensive.

[17] That's not true.

[18] It's less than a couple Starbucks coffees to go start a business today.

[19] There are so far too many people that work at a job they absolutely hate because they think they have no choice.

[20] No one had this massive 80 -page business plan and then got started.

[21] That's not how businesses are created.

[22] They're created based on this nugget of an idea.

[23] And they're explored and you get curious about and you try this other stuff.

[24] That's how you build companies that change the world.

[25] I wake up every morning, encouraging more entrepreneurship, creating tools that help entrepreneurs start scale and build faster.

[26] That drives me to keep building and keep growing.

[27] The stores that we are most proud of are the homegrown success stories that grew to be multi -billion dollar businesses.

[28] If I give you $3 million, who would you invest it in?

[29] I would definitely put one of those millions of dollars into the hands of a creator who's the second one I think would be...

[30] The third one would be someone...

[31] Oh, really?

[32] Yeah.

[33] Those types of people that I would.

[34] back.

[35] Harley, in your own words, who are you?

[36] What do you do?

[37] And what mission are you on?

[38] I've always self -identified as an entrepreneur, full stop.

[39] That's kind of the tool that I use to solve every problem in my life.

[40] And to have fun is always through the lens of entrepreneurship.

[41] What do I do?

[42] I mean, I think technically I'm the president of Shopify, but I view my role as being the chief storyteller.

[43] How can I get the world to know that Shopify is the entrepreneurship company and invite more people to participate in that?

[44] The mission that I'm on, this is going to sound really repetitive now, but is I want more people to try their hand at this thing that I call business creation or entrepreneurship.

[45] And I don't think right now most people consider entrepreneurship as a thing that they can do to self -actualize.

[46] Why does it matter if more people become entrepreneurs?

[47] I think the world is far more.

[48] more colorful.

[49] And I think humans are far more interesting when they commercialize their hobby, for example.

[50] I think there are still far too many people that work at a job they absolutely hate.

[51] In fact, I would say that they loathe because they think they have no choice.

[52] And that was the case for a long time.

[53] You go back 40 years, 50 years, not everyone could be an entrepreneur.

[54] That is different.

[55] And I'm not saying that everyone that has a great hobby should commercialize an hobby.

[56] Some hobbies should stay hobbies.

[57] But there are a ton of people who work at a job they despise.

[58] they go home at night, they go to the garage or their workshop or their kitchen table, and they tinker on cool stuff, but they don't share that with the world.

[59] If they did that, consumers would get really better stuff that they can purchase and they can use.

[60] But those particular people behind those businesses can find their life's work.

[61] And this concept of life's work is not something that my parents, my grandparents, my great -grandparents even had in their lexicon.

[62] But I think the idea of finding your life's work, I think you have done that, Steve, and I hope that I've done that too.

[63] that is a life -changing moment.

[64] There's going to be potentially millions of people listening to this now that resonate with what you're saying.

[65] They are in situations that are not serving them on some kind of psychological fulfillment level.

[66] Why aren't those people, in your view, pursuing what their life work is?

[67] I'm trying to, like, create some, I guess, some nuance or trying to step into their mindset so that they feel understood.

[68] What is the gap, the Grand Canyon that they need to cross in their mind to get to that other side, which is their life's work?

[69] Why don't people do it?

[70] I think a big part of it is perception.

[71] I think a lot of people perceive entrepreneurship as something that's out of reach for usually one of two reasons.

[72] The first reason is financial.

[73] They have a family member or a friend or they've heard an anecdote of someone who started a business that was not successful.

[74] And ultimately, it costs them their entire life.

[75] They couldn't, you know, they lost their house.

[76] They couldn't put food on their table.

[77] And so there's a perception that entrepreneurship is very expensive.

[78] If you don't have money, you cannot start.

[79] And actually, I would say that for the last period of the time, that entrepreneurship or business has been available in the world, which is, you know, entrepreneurship or business is about as old as currency.

[80] So thousands and thousands of years, the main ingredient in starting a business was capital.

[81] And if you didn't have capital, you couldn't start.

[82] And I think that's changed.

[83] And we can get back to that in a second.

[84] The second part is the understanding.

[85] or the experience with the know -how to begin.

[86] And I think that also has changed.

[87] I think now you don't have to go to business school.

[88] You don't have to have grown up in a home with entrepreneurs to start a business.

[89] I think that anyone can start.

[90] And so on both those things, I think the cost of failure is as close as yours has ever been right now, like as we sit here.

[91] And the second part is I think that if you try something, it doesn't work, you can try it again.

[92] And that may be, you know, your gym shark, your Allo Yoga, you're James Purse.

[93] from a psychological perspective some people you know they often say well you know it requires a lot of self -belief they talk about self -belief and confidence as being this kind of macro force that drives people to to start and I was sat here the other day with an entrepreneur who's built multiple companies and been very very successful and he was saying to me he said something to me like when the it's actually pain the pain of his current situation which drove him to take the leap as it relates to people's like psychology and their self -belief and their self -belief and their self - self -confidence.

[94] When you're trying to get people to become entrepreneurs, what can we do there to get them to take the leap?

[95] Is there anything that can be done?

[96] I mean, first of all, I think that there's two types of catalysts for starting a business.

[97] One is passion and the other is disparity or being desperate.

[98] And actually, I think entrepreneurs by necessity are a big part of the greatest company's ever been created.

[99] The reason I became an entrepreneur, I mean, I told it that as a kid, but when I really became an entrepreneur, it was because I had no choice.

[100] And it's a very powerful driver.

[101] It wasn't about my self -confidence or my swagger or whether or not I thought I could.

[102] I had no choice.

[103] In terms of, you know, you had Richard Branson on, he has this famous line, screw it, just do it.

[104] I think that plays in sort of the passion side of things, not necessarily in disparity kind of things.

[105] I didn't say screw, just do it.

[106] I was like, I have no choice.

[107] What am I to do right now?

[108] Either have to like move back home to South Florida and live at home with my mom and sister's dad wasn't around or I can actually figure this out on my own and I can pay for school and I can help support my family and so it wasn't about screw just do it that wasn't much self -confidence it was here's a way for me to actually survive and I think that matters the role of passion in entrepreneurship you'll you'll know that a lot of entrepreneurs they are so in love with the idea of being rich and successful that they'll kind of trying to reverse engineer a passion into their journey of being rich and successful.

[109] So they'll sit down and say, what do I think is going to make me rich and successful?

[110] This happens all the time, you know, entrepreneurs will come up to me and say, I've got three ideas.

[111] And they'll name three random things, I'm going to start a hair care business.

[112] I might do a coffee company or I might do crypto, for example.

[113] And you look at that and go, like, it's going to get so difficult for you in year one.

[114] You're going to quit all of these things.

[115] What role do you think passion plays in eventual success?

[116] I think you have to actually like the thing you're doing to do it over a long period of time.

[117] my first, when I was 13 years old, I grew up in Montreal, I'm Jewish, I went to a lot of bar and bat mitzvahs, that thing you do when, you know, 13 year old kids, 12 years old if you're a girl, 13 years old, if you're a boy, you go to these bar mitzvah parties.

[118] And I remember seeing the DJs at these parties on stage playing, I don't know, cheesy music, very cheesy music.

[119] But I was just enthralled with them.

[120] I thought they were the coolest people in the world because in a matter of minutes, they would take a group of 300 sleepy people eating, rubber chicken dinner and like a minute later a couple minutes later they'd be doing the conga line and it looked like magic to me and i really thought that'd be super cool for me to partake in and so there was a passion for me to i want to be a dj turned out nobody would hire me because i wasn't really a dj i didn't know how to dj and i looked like i was eight years old i mean i'm always been a little bit short i'm so short but i looked i was really short when i was 13 and so there's no way anyone would hire me and i decided i'd just start my own dj company and hire myself so there's some passion to it.

[121] When I was 17 years old and I moved from, we moved to South Florida when I was around that time, moved back to Montreal when I was 17 to go to McGill University.

[122] My dad was no longer around.

[123] We can get into that if you want to.

[124] But at that point, it wasn't like I'm going to go back to DJing.

[125] It was, okay, things are really bad right now.

[126] Like, dad's not around.

[127] I have too much younger sisters.

[128] Mom needs help.

[129] What am I going to do?

[130] And I started selling T -shirts to universities across Canada.

[131] I had very little passion towards T -shirts.

[132] I like wearing T -shirts.

[133] I like wearing T -shirts, as we talked about earlier.

[134] Like, black T -shirts are something that I like, but I was not a passionate T -shirt entrepreneur manufacturer.

[135] I was passionate about survival.

[136] I was passionate about supporting my mom and my sisters.

[137] And so I don't think that T -shirt business was going to be something that I would, I was going to be doing the rest of my life.

[138] That was not my life's work.

[139] Fast forward to today, leading Shopify with our team, I'm very passionate with Shopify's mission, this idea that more people can be entrepreneurs because of the, you know, the work we do at Shopify, I can do the rest of my life if the board will have me. So I think there's a time and a place for passion in these things, but I don't think it's the only reason to start.

[140] You referenced a few things there that I thought were quite interesting and that made my mind wander onto adjacent subject matter.

[141] One of those is that you're talking there about what's driving us at different moments in our life.

[142] One of the conversations I had on this podcast with Barbara Cochran, the shark over here in the US, she said to me that her best investments she makes on entrepreneurs, they tend to have some kind of underlying trauma.

[143] And that ends up being fuel in their engine.

[144] So when things get really, really hard, they're driven and in such an obsessive way.

[145] And I remember then, and I've always thought this, I've always thought that insecurity and shame and these kinds of things are unbelievably unappreciated drivers and people, for better or for worse, it comes with a downside.

[146] Do you think entrepreneurs should, and founders should go to therapy?

[147] I think some should.

[148] I think entrepreneurs and founders need to be self -aware.

[149] I think that's the first thing.

[150] Once they're self -aware and they understand, hey, there are some things that going on in my mind, in my personality, in my, whatever, my being, I don't know how to describe it, that I need to work on.

[151] I think therapy is a hack to get there faster.

[152] You can do it on your own, and some people do.

[153] Some people do it through books and they do through meditation and they go do, you know, ayahuasca in a desert somewhere.

[154] But I think if you have the means to go to therapy, how could you not?

[155] There is someone whose job it is to make you better.

[156] Now, I think a lot of people make a mistake where they go to see one therapist and they're like, this doesn't work for me. Yeah.

[157] And they're like, therapy doesn't work.

[158] No, that therapist didn't work.

[159] If you date somebody and the relation doesn't work doesn't mean you're never going to date again, it means that was the wrong person for you.

[160] And so one thing I think about is whether it's coaching or it's mentors or like a therapist or a psychologist in your life or psychiatrist, you need to find the right fit.

[161] But if you have the means to do so, it's the greatest hack ever to just know more, to realize more.

[162] Is it going to be painful?

[163] Unequivocally.

[164] The joke that I have with my therapist is I know it's been a good session if I feel worse after than when I did coming in.

[165] Because sometimes I come into these sessions and I got swagger and I just had a great day and things are going all, things are going my way.

[166] Then an hour later, I leave and I'm like, oh my God, I'm still like, I'm still such work in progress.

[167] You know, one, but, but that's, I think, what we're all choosing here.

[168] There's this great, my favorite poem or speech ever is this Teddy Roosevelt speech, the man in the arena.

[169] Did you know it?

[170] No. I'm going to butcher it, but it's effective, like, it is not the critic that counts, but the man or the woman or the human in the arena that matters.

[171] And the reason I love that speech so much is because if you don't want any of the stuff, you, like, you can, you can be a critic, you can be a spectator.

[172] But if you're an entrepreneur or you're a doer, or a builder or someone that deeply wants to do cool shit and build something for yourself, for your family, for the world.

[173] You got to be in the arena.

[174] And in the arena, there's a lot of fighting.

[175] And it's tough.

[176] But I think it's a better way to live.

[177] That's the reason why the best articulation of all this is this term entrepreneurship.

[178] Because entrepreneurship is fundamentally, you have a problem and you are solving in a way that uses the least amount of resources but has the highest amount of output.

[179] And that's the reason why I love entrepreneur.

[180] I love, we have millions of stores on Shopify.

[181] Some of them started because they were passionate about commercializing their craft.

[182] In some cases, they started because they had no choice.

[183] But the end result is they built something that is of value and they've shared it with everybody else.

[184] And so that's what I've signed up for.

[185] But if I'm going to check that box, this is the life I'm going to be the man in the arena, I need to acknowledge there's going to be critics who are going to try to tear me down.

[186] there's going to be internal critics that are going to try to mess that up and I'm still going to pursue.

[187] I'm still going to move forward in progress.

[188] And I think therapy helps with that.

[189] What's your relationship like with failure?

[190] We talked a little bit about the idea of failure at the start of this conversation, why people don't take the leap from a miserable certain situation into an uncertain situation that might give them a better life.

[191] But what's your relationship like with failure?

[192] Because everybody knows to be a successful entrepreneur to build great products, you have to fail fast.

[193] But if you're struggling with, you know, enoughness, then it seems like that might limit your ability to want to fail fast.

[194] You know, it is certain that the more successes you have under your belt, the easier it is to fail.

[195] Because you feel like if you've had, you know, nine out of ten things have been successful and that tenth is not, it doesn't mean you are a failure.

[196] So one thing is, I think separating like you being a failure versus the project or the particular thing being a failure is very, very different.

[197] Which is hard.

[198] Which is very hard.

[199] Toby, who, you know, is founder of Shopify and the person I spend most of my time with building this company over the last 13 or 14 years, he has this great line, which is that failure is the discovery of something that didn't work.

[200] And when I think when you use that lens, that failure is the discovery of something that didn't work, which he taught me, that made failure totally different.

[201] So now it's no longer about failing.

[202] It's like, what did I actually get from that that's going to make it better than next time?

[203] And Shopify puts out a lot of products.

[204] We had some stuff called Shopify additions, which happened in February, where twice a year we basically do almost like the fashion industry.

[205] We do like our spring collection and our winter collection.

[206] So we do these things called editions where we put out all of the products and features that we built over the last six months.

[207] We do about a hundred of them each time, which is a lot.

[208] Not every one of them is going to be a huge success.

[209] But some of those will be a complete game changer for our business, but also in the lives of the people that use our product.

[210] And I think we have a courage about that.

[211] I'm trying to have more of a courage about that myself.

[212] if I take on new responsibilities or new roles, am I going to be a failure?

[213] And the best example I can give you is for about five years or so, I was Shopify's chief operating officer.

[214] And I don't think I was ever the most operationally minded person.

[215] Meaning I didn't necessarily live in the details.

[216] I didn't necessarily live in spreadsheets.

[217] But when Toby and the board asked me to be a chief operating officer, it was a huge, it was a huge honor.

[218] I mean, Shopify is such a great company.

[219] Wow, like that's what they're asking.

[220] asking me. And I worked really, really hard to be the best version of a chief operating officer.

[221] And it was only three years ago or so that at some point it was obvious to me that like, that's not really my skill set.

[222] But I didn't want to say anything about that because I really believe that like I can figure it out.

[223] I think I did a good job, but maybe not the best job ever.

[224] And once I began to talk about, hey, this is probably not the right role for me where I can be the best in the world at.

[225] There is this other role, which traditionally is called the president, role, which is very external facing, maybe I can meet the best of the world at that thing.

[226] I'm not there yet, but I can, like, that is a journey I can get on.

[227] And maybe I don't have to be well -rounded.

[228] Maybe I can actually be spiky.

[229] And instead of actually trying to be a well -rounded leader, maybe I can focus on sharpening that point and sharpening that point over and over again.

[230] And that's when, you know, I had a conversation with Toby and the team and said, look, there is this other role and we need to bring someone in whose life's work it would be to be a great chief operating officer.

[231] We have that now.

[232] but man Steve I did not want to admit that I was not the right COO for Shopify because ego right total and ego and insecurity one I'm admitting failure the other one is I like this role it's a very important role but it was only when I sort of began to be honest about is this the right role for me that I began to say hey there's this other thing and I can tell you I am not a little bit happier now in my current role and and and more like it is so much more meaningful for me to have this role today because I feel like this is really where Shopify will benefit the most from what is my superpower, which is really storytelling.

[233] And the company's better.

[234] I like it better.

[235] The current CEO was so much better than I was ever.

[236] Everything kind of came about, but it probably took too long.

[237] I think that story is an incredibly powerful one because I come across people all the time within my own companies, but also just people that will send me messages who are currently in a role.

[238] Maybe they're being offered a promotion into another role.

[239] And because it's a bigger role with a bigger salary, they are inclined to take it.

[240] But there's that missing pause of sort of self -awareness where you've got your ego pulling you because I'm going to have, you know, higher status in this company.

[241] I'm going to get more pay.

[242] People are going to think I'm cooler and more impressive.

[243] But then the most important long -term question is, of course, like, am I good at this and do I, would I really love my life more?

[244] You see that a lot, don't you, when someone gets promoted to a management position and suddenly the group of friends they have and now the people that they have to manage.

[245] That point of self -awareness is so incredible.

[246] I reflect on a guy called Pete who I offered a promotion to one day and he was like, no, I'm not ready.

[247] And this must have been six.

[248] I'm offering you more money, the chance to become a director in the business, and he'd been with the business for four years at that point.

[249] he stayed for two years after I even left.

[250] He was just like, I'm not quite ready yet.

[251] He goes, I've still got a lot left to learn, a lot of skills.

[252] And I really like my current job.

[253] Yeah.

[254] I like Pete.

[255] Pete is the happiest guy, I know.

[256] He has his shit together, way more than I do.

[257] And not only is he happy, but he also, he's great, he's got great self -awareness.

[258] You know, one change that we recently made at Shopify was we realized that a lot of people, as they were going through the IC track or individual contributor track, eventually just leads to a manager track.

[259] And so the upward mobility of your career, ended up being you actually at some point, if you're really good, stop doing the thing you're really good at.

[260] And so very recently, we put out sort of a new operating model for our team, for our organization.

[261] And I think it's been, I think it got leaked to the press.

[262] So this is all public information.

[263] But if you want to be an incredible senior independent contributor in a senior IT, we will pay you the same rate that we would pay a senior manager.

[264] And that if you actually like your craft, whether you're a developer or a marketer or a salesperson, or you're doing data analysis or data scientist.

[265] If you love your craft, and I know some people who love their craft, they've been doing it for 30 years, you do not necessarily need to leave that craft to be a manager to get some sort of additional seniority or additional compensation.

[266] And dispelling some of that, frankly, like the bullshit around, the only way to be successful is to be a manager is to lead people.

[267] Not everyone needs to lead people.

[268] Some people should be a coach.

[269] Other people should just continue becoming like the greatest player on the field ever and making that okay i think is going to make shop by a much better company but one thing you did talk about that that you sort of raise it that that that that that got me thinking about like the self -identity thing is that i think a lot of times for this guy pete pete may really just be ambitious about perfecting his craft in his skill set and he doesn't necessarily believe he's ready yet to leave that because there's still work to be done i love that and i think at most companies, what you end up with is the Pete's of the world, when they say they don't, they don't want a promotion.

[270] They often get taken out completely.

[271] Well, Pete's not ambitious.

[272] Pete's not going to be someone who's going to be, you know, a real contributor longer term here.

[273] Maybe he's lazy.

[274] Pete's not lazy.

[275] He has a deep understanding.

[276] I don't know Pete is.

[277] It's going to be hilarious when he hears this.

[278] Maybe I do know Pete.

[279] But Pete is obviously a clear understanding of, hey, there's this thing.

[280] This is the spiky object.

[281] Don't make me a riverstone.

[282] I don't want to be well -rounded.

[283] I want to be so good at this.

[284] And by the way, If I do this, the company is going to get better.

[285] I'm going to be happier.

[286] Our customers are going to be happier.

[287] It all kind of works out.

[288] I think most companies turn their employees ultimately into riverstones.

[289] They say, you've got to be better here and better there.

[290] And I think instead, this sort of T -shaped, you've heard this sort of T -shaped model of skill set.

[291] I think the T -shaped is much better where you can go broader a lot of different things, but you go deep on one.

[292] And that one thing for me is the storytelling aspect of my job, is making sure investors, the public, our merchants, media, everyone in the world knows what Shopify is up to and understands what our ambitions are.

[293] And so I'm trying to get really deep on the storytelling, but I also need to understand our API.

[294] I need to understand our infrastructure.

[295] I need to understand, you know, how we build product and how we get shit done at Shopify.

[296] So I understand all those things because I need to speak to it intelligently and with conviction and with a deep understanding.

[297] But I'm never going to write code because there are people that should write code that are going to be so much better than I'll ever be.

[298] You did, you did now, Pete.

[299] I remember him saying one of the things I do remember in that meeting.

[300] I remember where I sat.

[301] It's so funny because it was such a interesting moment for me. I was very young in my career as like a CEO and I remember where I sat when he said and what I recall is he was referencing that he still felt that there was work to be done in his role and that he didn't want to move up into this.

[302] I think it was a global role we're offering him because he didn't feel like he'd quite finished the work in his current role which was just in the UK.

[303] You referenced spikiness.

[304] You know you said you and that may gave me flashbacks to a conversation I had with Jimmy Carway.

[305] He said, we don't need more people that are shit at physics.

[306] Find the thing you'll get out and double down there.

[307] As career advice for an entrepreneur, also when that's not an entrepreneur, what do you mean by spikiness and why is it important?

[308] Oh, so this is going to be a long way to get there, but I think it's important.

[309] Go long.

[310] When I was building that teacher business in college, a mentor of mine, say his name, his name is Philip Reimer.

[311] He's a senior partner at a very prestigious, law firm called Dentons.

[312] They're in the UK.

[313] They're everywhere.

[314] They're all over the world.

[315] He's like, you know, he's had this incredible white shoe law firm career.

[316] He basically convinced me to go to law school.

[317] And he convinced me to go to law school not to become a lawyer.

[318] He's like, the skill set that you need, given what I think your ambitions are around business creation, business building entrepreneurship, you are lacking some sophistication.

[319] You're, you're always going to struggle with these sort of things.

[320] He's like, but I have this idea, which is go to law school, not to get good grades necessarily, not to get, not to become a lawyer, but to effectively, selfishly disseminate all this information from your classes to make you a better entrepreneur.

[321] And I think because I sort of had a very clear view that I wasn't sure at that time I was 21 when I started law school.

[322] I didn't know exactly what my spiky point was, but I knew it had to do with entrepreneurship.

[323] And so Phil, when you're 21, I didn't know very much at 21.

[324] I thought this t -shirt business would just be the thing I'd keep doing for for many more years.

[325] But Phil had this idea that actually to sharpen your point, you should do something that is not obvious.

[326] And in hindsight, it really feels like what Phil was helping me to figure out was finding more alpha in terms of entrepreneurship, finding some arbitrage opportunity, something that exists that no one is looking at, but that I can take advantage of.

[327] Something unique?

[328] Is that what you're saying?

[329] Yes, exactly.

[330] Something really unique.

[331] That, hey, you're a good entrepreneur.

[332] You're not a great entrepreneur.

[333] You're not sophisticated.

[334] You don't understand all these different aspects.

[335] entrepreneurship.

[336] You should go to law school, not to be a lawyer, but to be a better entrepreneur, and you should be selfish in law school and in that, in your curriculum, in deriving as much insight as possible.

[337] So when you leave law school, you can return to entrepreneurship in a much better version of yourself.

[338] Because you'll have something that the competitor said, other entrepreneurs wouldn't have.

[339] That's right.

[340] So you could have gone, like, you know, Steve Jobs did that like typography class.

[341] That's right.

[342] And that's where we have these incredible devices in front of us.

[343] That's right.

[344] So it's an unobvious skill that's complementary.

[345] And that's why I say it's sort of finding alpha or an arbitrage opportunity because it's something that is not obvious to most people, but now in hindsight, when you think about it, you're like, well, that makes total sense.

[346] Look, I went to, like, I went to public high school and it was a good school, but I didn't learn how to write very well.

[347] And then I went to McGill and economics.

[348] I didn't learn how to write really well in law school because all you're doing is writing factums and memos all day long.

[349] I learned how to negotiate and how to do real critical debate and critical reasoning.

[350] I learned how to read 2 ,000 pages and pick out the one line that matters.

[351] all of these things on their own doesn't seem like it would create the curriculum of a great long -term entrepreneur, but it did.

[352] And I think part of the reason why I allowed myself to go through that process of law school was I didn't know exactly what my spiky point was, but it felt like it's definitely in the realm of entrepreneurship.

[353] I didn't realize that I would help build a company that would create millions of new entrepreneurs, but I knew entrepreneurship was deeply personal to me because it helped me. It was my family story of survival.

[354] It just felt like this incredible tool that most people had not discovered yet.

[355] And so on that spiky point, I think the sooner you figure out that spiky point, you don't have to be precise.

[356] I didn't know I was going to run a software company, but I knew that entrepreneurship was deeply important to me. And so as I made decisions starting at 21 years old, every decision was under the lens of, is this going to help sharpen my point?

[357] Is this going to make me a better entrepreneur?

[358] And I think if I would have realized that 10 or 15 years later, it still would have been fine, but it may have not have happened as it wouldn't have happened the same way.

[359] And it may have not led me to join a handful of really smart engineers building this crazy piece of software called Shopify 14 years ago.

[360] I think this is an exceptionally underspoken about point, which is this idea of like skill stacking, but stacking skills that are unobvious and rare within an industry.

[361] So if we take, and I think we should go through this in a little bit more detail, because I think it can really have a profound impact on people.

[362] I read about how the best people in the world, I think it's a mathematical equation where if you're the best at six skills in an industry that are like unobvious, you actually are the best in a million people at that thing.

[363] So I mean, if there's a village of a million people and they showed this little graph, I remember seeing it and writing about it a little bit, where if you just, if you're just in the top 10 % at six complementary skills, you're the best in the village at that particular thing.

[364] like Christiana Ronaldo the football player he's not the best he's not the fastest player in the world he's not the the best shooter in the world he doesn't take the best free kicks in the world doesn't head the ball the best in the world he's considered the best player in the world by many because he indexes high the top 10 % of various things I think about jack he records this podcast now if jack was uh wanted to be a podcast director what all podcast directors or producers do is they'll go learn how to do microphones and cameras now interestingly I don't think that's the place to be placing your time to become the best in the world.

[365] As we saw in the case of Steve Jobs, who went into typography and design and then made these beautiful devices, Jack should probably go and try and get an unobvious but skill that would be in high demand and low supply in this industry.

[366] So if Jack went into theatre, he would learn maybe about how to construct a story arc. Or if he went and did like, I don't know.

[367] Set design also.

[368] Yeah, or DJing.

[369] If he went and learned to be a DJ, then he would learn about stems and music and whatever else.

[370] Or set design if he went and did a theory.

[371] And that would make him be, I'm not using, I'm just saying someone in Jack's position.

[372] That would make them be a real fucking hard to find talent.

[373] But it's funny because we can, in industries like, I always think this about coders.

[374] And I don't hate to sort of generalize here, but it probably does sound like a generalization.

[375] It's sometimes hard to find someone who can code who's also an exceptional storyteller and visionary.

[376] Often in companies, they're two separate roles, right?

[377] So if you're a coder, instead of becoming even better at coding, for example, going and doing those little, like, public speaking sessions is probably an unbelievable hack because then you can build and sell.

[378] Sure.

[379] And actually, that brings up two points.

[380] One is most people start companies with people just like them.

[381] Yeah, yeah.

[382] Most people start companies with people that they would have been friends with in high school.

[383] I think that's a terrible idea.

[384] In fact, if you are in college right now, listening or watching this, and you're in the business program, commerce, or you're in the engineering program, don't start a company with the person sitting next to you, walk across the street, go to a different faculty, go to the faculty of arts, or go to the faculty of philosophy, or go to faculty of engineering, and find someone there to start a company with.

[385] I think some of the best partnerships and relationships that I've seen that have built things that are that changed the world, from a company perspective, philanthropically, whatever they're trying to build might be.

[386] building with other people with complementary skill sets is incredibly valuable.

[387] In fact, I think you get a much richer set of stacking of skills.

[388] You mentioned DJing in terms of skill set.

[389] I never appreciated ever how important my experience DJ.

[390] I DJs like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and never appreciated what I learned as a DJ and how I apply to running a large public company.

[391] But the truth is there's all these different things.

[392] So, for example, something I noticed early on, it's like 14 or 15 years old, if the pre -meeting went really well with the client, no matter how the party went, it was going to be a great result.

[393] Because I had a good relationship or good connection with the client, even if half the party didn't want to dance, the client knew me and knew enough about me and knew that I was going to try my best, that even if half the party was dancing, they were happy about that.

[394] And they were on your side.

[395] And they were on my side.

[396] There was this immediate connection.

[397] And so now, before I go into any serious negotiation, I try to get to know the person on the other side of the table.

[398] I try to find some common ground where both dads or both parents or both, you know, whatever.

[399] We're both from the same place.

[400] That's the first thing.

[401] The second thing is read the room.

[402] So one of the things about DJing you have to do is you have to read the audience.

[403] And if the audience, you know, is clearly, if you're playing disco and no one's dancing and you got to make, you know, like a hard write into hip hop or rap or something like to talk.

[404] top 40.

[405] Like you can see glimpses of that.

[406] You try one song.

[407] You see how people, you watch their faces.

[408] How do people resonate?

[409] Oh, they really like this song.

[410] Great.

[411] I'm going to go like more money, more problems from Tories BIG and the whole crowd erupts.

[412] Things like that really do make a difference.

[413] You know, there is, instead of asking people to get up from their chairs and come onto the dance floor, which is an awkward thing to ask people to do after dinner, instead have something in the middle of the dance where the people want to see.

[414] So maybe, for example, one of the people that is hosting makes a speech.

[415] And you say, ladies and gentlemen, at this point, please get up in your chairs and take 10 steps forward because the father of the bride is going to say a few words.

[416] And everyone gets up and comes on the dance floor.

[417] And then when that speech is done, everyone's already on the dance floor.

[418] And so finding these hacks and these sort of ways to not manipulate, but find better strategies for getting the thing accomplished.

[419] I learned all that in DJing and I can apply all that to running a large public company today.

[420] this um you know when we start businesses and stuff go back to that point again like we we tend to go deep on the subject matter but what i've heard from that is our hobbies and the things and the curiosity we have outside of the area that we're building in is equally important then like if i'm building a i don't know if i'm building a um i'm building mugs for people to drink tea out of much of my inspiration will come from all the other things i do in my part and the problem is we kind of deprioritize that part of our lives to to focus on this thing but that's taking a step away from the painting allows us to see the picture a bit clearer and also to create that picture a bit clearer, which I think is a conversation people don't have enough because they think their hobbies are, again, deductive.

[421] Toys or games.

[422] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[423] I totally agree.

[424] I mean, look, I mean, this is what a polymath is.

[425] A polymath understands a lot of different areas of the world are a comprehensist, understand a lot of areas and pulls those different things in.

[426] What's a polymath, sorry?

[427] Polymath is someone who knows a lot about a lot of different things.

[428] Okay.

[429] Now, there are two things that I've done that were hobbies that ended up being hugely valuable is one, my wife started an ice cream company.

[430] In 2016, after we had our first daughter, after our first child, my wife really wanted to start an ice cream shop in our, in our neighborhood.

[431] There was an ice cream shop.

[432] And so it was clear.

[433] It was her business, not mine.

[434] She was very clear about that.

[435] She wanted independence.

[436] But even just helping her on things like accounting or accounts payable or accounts receivable or helping her procure ice cream from the ice cream makers, that was super valuable because one, It built huge empathy for the people that you shop that they're starting out.

[437] And the second thing I did was during the pandemic, I was all by myself.

[438] I'm an extrovert, as you probably can tell.

[439] My anxiety had increased to a degree that I had not felt in many, many years.

[440] And what I realized was I was drinking so much more coffee when I was by myself at home, way more, like double or even triple the consumption.

[441] And my best friend, who's a sort of a tea guy, loves tea, said to me, I'm going to actually get you to stop drinking coffee in the afternoon and to replace your coffee with really great green tea.

[442] It wasn't really a tea drinker.

[443] And so David started to bring me this great tea.

[444] And at some point, I was like, you know, David, I want to actually experiment with more of the features on Shopify.

[445] And I think this tea thing, I think most people's experience with tea was like someone getting in the gift basket and it was some bunch of crappy tea in there.

[446] I was like, people don't know like about this really great tea.

[447] They don't know how to make it.

[448] They don't know what to use it for, when to drink it.

[449] And so we created this little tea business called Firebelly.

[450] And both those things were sort of hobbies in my life.

[451] They were sort of Sunday afternoon activities.

[452] I don't really watch sports on Sunday afternoons.

[453] I like to tinker and try different business ideas.

[454] Both those things have made me as a leader at Shopify so much more valuable.

[455] I understand pretty much every feature and functionality that Shopify has because I tried for myself.

[456] And initially when I told people that I was starting a little tea business, the answer was, I don't like, why are you doing that?

[457] That seems silly.

[458] You're not going to change your life financially.

[459] It feels like a distraction.

[460] And I would say that's one of the greatest tools that I've ever, greatest things that I've ever done that has made me a better leader at Shopify.

[461] And it's just a hobby.

[462] There's something really, really powerful in that.

[463] Because when I start this conversation, I asked you why people don't take the leap.

[464] And a lot of the reason why I think is because, and we talked about the psychology, is when I think about starting a business, like a tea business, or any business, I'm stood at the bottom of Mount Everest looking up thinking, in, Jesus Christ, like, I've got to find a website.

[465] As you said, I think I need loads of money.

[466] Who's going to work for me?

[467] Where do I get the tea from?

[468] How do I send it in the post?

[469] What's the packaging?

[470] I need to do branding.

[471] And I need to do it all now.

[472] And also, there's this other thing, which in our minds, we think of success as being me making millions or me making a ton of money.

[473] What I almost heard as you were telling that tea story was like, have this passion, remove the expectation, which said David Brails, told me about really well.

[474] Just remove the expectation if you have ever being anything more than a hobby and just get going.

[475] And you'll stumble forward along the way and that's okay.

[476] I think if more entrepreneurs can see that Mount Everest, there's just a bunch of pebbles and remove the time frame where possible, remove the expectation of huge success and just stumble forward through the process.

[477] We'd have so many great, great more businesses than we do now.

[478] And everyone listening to this has that.

[479] They have the hobby.

[480] They have the, they love tea or they love coffee or matcher or whatever it is.

[481] that perspective change of like, okay, well, today I'm going to start my Shopify store, tomorrow I'll think of the name.

[482] I won't even tell anybody just to remove even more expectation.

[483] And I'll just stumble forward through in my hobby and see where we get to in 10 years.

[484] Most people on Shopify don't register their business until weeks after they sign up for Shopify.

[485] So most people don't even assume they're going to need to register a business.

[486] And that's okay.

[487] And it's not to say that every idea you have in the shower needs to be commercialized, needs to see the light of day.

[488] But if there's an idea you have in the shower, and you're having it a couple days in a row, try it out.

[489] Like, I mean, this isn't a pitch for Shopify, but like it's, it's less than a couple Starbucks coffees to go start a business today.

[490] And if you fail, the cost of failure is as close to zero as it's ever been.

[491] You don't have to take a loan out, you don't have to mortgage your house.

[492] You don't have to take food off the table, hopefully.

[493] And if it works, you try it.

[494] And if it doesn't work, you try something different.

[495] But this idea of, yeah, there's like this barrier to getting started.

[496] it.

[497] And I think, you know, one of the reasons that I think one of the best times to start your entrepreneurial career or your entrepreneurial, you know, business is in school.

[498] The reason I think is because when you're in school as a student, there's very few expectations on you that this is going to be a huge success.

[499] So it's kind of the perfect time to get started.

[500] Whether you're in high school, like with my DJ business or in college with my, with when I sold T -shirts, there was very little expectation.

[501] I mean, no one thought it was going to be successful anyway.

[502] You sell one, everyone class.

[503] Yeah, they're like, Great.

[504] That's so cool.

[505] You have a business.

[506] No one asks me what my revenue is.

[507] No one's asking me with my Ibita margins.

[508] I think it is a lot easier to get started on a business when you're in school or you're where you have a job and this is sort of your side hustle.

[509] The amount of people, Shopify right now is about 10 % of all e -commerce in the United States.

[510] In place like Australia, it's way more than that.

[511] I know most of our largest merchants because I'm obsessed with this stuff.

[512] I love it.

[513] Most of the businesses on Shopify that are really successful, the homegrown success stories, they were accidental.

[514] It was Heather and Trina sitting at a coffee shop not too far from here with a friend of theirs.

[515] That was a doctor who was wearing these hospital scrubs that just looked like shit.

[516] They're like, we can do this better.

[517] And that's a figs was born.

[518] It was Ben Francis who said, why is there no clothes for just regular gym people?

[519] Either it's like gym rat stuff like bodybuilders or it's yoga.

[520] And that was he, that's how Jim Shark came to the world.

[521] Or it's Tim and Joey at Albert saying, why is there no really great sustainable sneaker.

[522] That feels good.

[523] That's washable.

[524] That costs this amount of money.

[525] That's how Allbirds got started.

[526] So most, no one had this massive 80 page business plan and then got started.

[527] That's not how businesses are created in modern times.

[528] They're created based on this nugget of an idea and they're explored and you have, and you get curious about and you try this other stuff.

[529] And that's how you build companies that are long lasting that changed the fucking world.

[530] And that's how Shopify was started as well.

[531] Indeed.

[532] Indeed.

[533] It was an immigrant from Germany coming to Canada because he fell in love with a girl and got to caught to this new country and couldn't get a job because he didn't have his working papers and was told he can start a business and he looks around and he sees snow everywhere and he says I'm going to start a snowboard company and in 2004 there's two ways to sell a product on the internet one way you sell in a marketplace which is very cheap very inexpensive like eBay or something exactly but you're renting customers from that marketplace they're not your customers the other way was to spend seven figures no exaggeration and have one of these big enterprise companies build you an online store.

[534] And he didn't have that kind of money.

[535] He didn't like those options, so he wrote a piece of software and started selling snowboards.

[536] And the snowboard shop was called Snowdevil.

[537] And very quickly, people started asking him if they can use the software to sell their own products.

[538] And he decided the snowboard store was a good idea, but the software behind it was a great idea.

[539] And that was how shop I was born.

[540] And I met Toby around that time when he was transitioning from snowboards into software.

[541] And I became one of the first customers to use.

[542] Shopify in 2006.

[543] And then you were the first non -technical employee as well.

[544] That's right.

[545] And a couple years later, after law school, I called him and said, I want to join you in a small handful of engineers, smartest people I've ever met in my life still to this day, and said, let me, let me be your Swiss Army knife.

[546] Let me come in.

[547] I don't care what you call me. I'll be sales.

[548] I'll be finance.

[549] I'll be marketing.

[550] I'll form partnerships.

[551] I'll do anything and everything you need because I believe the world will be better if we actually get this thing off the ground.

[552] And we've been working at this for, you know, it's my 14th year now.

[553] When people hear those stories of these, you know, a couple of women, a couple of men, a couple of people who had an idea, they saw a kind of gap in the market, they pivoted into it seamlessly, and here we are today, you know, it's worth tens of billions of dollars, whatever.

[554] I want to zoom in on a particular thing, which is at that time, because I hear this all the time from entrepreneurs, it's one of the, again, one of the barriers for them starting, is, well, someone is already doing it.

[555] There's competition.

[556] And I think about every business that I've been involved in that's been successful.

[557] And at the time when I did it, there was someone that was way further down the head than me. And probably better capitalized.

[558] Better capitalized more information.

[559] That's right.

[560] Yeah.

[561] Smarter.

[562] Yeah, all those things.

[563] And it never has mattered.

[564] And I can't quite articulate why it doesn't matter.

[565] I can probably try, but I want you to.

[566] When Toby, that small group of people yourself went off on that journey, was their competitors.

[567] Totally.

[568] Tons.

[569] Very well.

[570] Big ones too.

[571] Yahoo Stores.

[572] No idea.

[573] In 2006, Yahoo is a really big company.

[574] Yahoo stores existed.

[575] There were companies called Magento, which is still around today.

[576] Yeah, not as prevalent, but that was around.

[577] There were major competitors out there.

[578] But the idea wasn't necessarily to try to do some and no one else was doing.

[579] It was try to do it better.

[580] And that, I think, is a difference between the great companies and just the good companies, that there are always going to be good companies out there.

[581] but most of them are not necessarily trying to completely, you know, like move the needle on what is possible.

[582] All of those companies, by the way, that existed when Shopify was just getting started served a particular segment.

[583] It was either for, you know, like arts and crafts, like an Etsy kind of style or it's for big companies, IBM, SAP Oracle, had competitors there.

[584] Yahoo stores focused on very, very small businesses.

[585] But we never gave ourselves those constraints.

[586] It was, let's allow people and enable them to build beautiful online stores quickly, effectively that were customized for their particular brand and try to bend the learning curve around entrepreneurship.

[587] And over time, like over many, you know, it's now almost 20 years.

[588] Over time, we're like, let's add payments.

[589] Let's add capital.

[590] Let's help with fulfillment.

[591] We should do point of sale because physical retail is important.

[592] What if we also help them with things like cross -selling across different markets?

[593] What if we create sort of a bank account, to help them manage their cash flow.

[594] Over time, it's sort of evolved from that.

[595] But the initial idea had lots of other competitors in the space.

[596] This was not this massive novel thing.

[597] We just did it better.

[598] And it's funny because a lot of those competitors, we absolutely do not remember now because you did it better.

[599] And that's the really important perspective shift, which is not like, am I the only one with this idea?

[600] There's probably not a lot of value in the idea itself.

[601] But the execution of that idea, can I do it better, is really where winners and losers are established.

[602] So that begs the question, what's the philosophy and I'm very intentional with the word philosophy there that enables a team to take a challenge where there's multiple competitors in your view and just do it better I mean this is going to sound trite but having deep empathy for how merchants and how your customer use your product is very, very important and I think a lot of companies lose sight of that they focus on what is known as like whales like who are the power users let's focus on that but we never did that We actually think that the, all of the merchants that I brought up so far in our conversation were merchants that started at their mom's kitchen table that grew to be multi -billion dollar, you know, hegemonic incumbents.

[603] It's great.

[604] I love that we have staples and I love that we have Spanx and I love that we have, you know, Black and Decker and Mattel using Shopify.

[605] But those are companies that were already successful before they started using Shopify.

[606] The stores that we are most proud of that, we love to talk about.

[607] are the homegrown success stories because even though we are not responsible for their success, we simply made the journey a little bit less difficult over time.

[608] But the way that we think about these sort of things are, can we use software, can use technology to make things better?

[609] And by adding more value, a disproportionate value every single step of the way, we think we build a lot of loyalty with our merchants.

[610] And what then happens is the ones that do become successful, never leave Shopify.

[611] So there are people that start a business that fails and and they decide to either shut it down or they decide to pivot to different business, we're okay with that.

[612] We're not changing physics.

[613] We know that most small businesses will not be multimillionar companies over time.

[614] But the key for us is that the ones that do succeed never have to leave the platform.

[615] So it's almost like when you start on Shopify, it's super easy, super simple.

[616] In an hour or two, you can build a beautiful online store.

[617] But over time, as the complexity of your business increases, the solutions on Shopify sort of reveals itself over time.

[618] But it does so at the right time so you are not overwhelmed.

[619] And I think we are very hard on ourselves.

[620] And that's the right time.

[621] We're hard on ourselves that we really want to continue to push the envelope.

[622] Here's a very simple example.

[623] Everyone right now is talking about AI.

[624] Obviously, chatGBT is really, really cool.

[625] We were using it already in a couple different ways.

[626] But the way we thought about it when it first came out was, this is all great, very cool technology.

[627] What is it going to do for merchants?

[628] What is the practical implications of AI on the lives of the merchants?

[629] And for us, it was like, well, wouldn't be cool if AI helped merchants write product descriptions?

[630] So you put in your product photography or some meta tags, and chatGBT helps you write a product description that will convert better.

[631] That is really practical.

[632] You know, obviously, in Web 3, for example, we always thought about this is all cool technology, the blockchain is amazing, what can we do with it?

[633] What if we can do token gated commerce so that you can reward your most loyal customers with new opportunities, new discounts, new events?

[634] we use this lens of of practicality across every single feature we have and we also think about well what happens if this particular merchant gets really really big um i have a bit of a moby dick story um my moby dick in terms of shopify the one brand merchant that i've wanted on shoplify for so damn long is a company called supreme you've heard of course yeah they're incredible the supreme story is amazing.

[635] But the reason I wanted Supreme on Shopify so badly more than almost any other brand is because I knew that they would test the limits of Shopify.

[636] Their flash sales are probably the largest flash sales across the entire internet, which means they're probably the largest flash sales across all of retail.

[637] And I knew that if we got them on, it would pull Shopify into a new category of resiliency of performance.

[638] Most companies would have shied away from that.

[639] Most companies have been like, we don't want Supreme.

[640] We know they're a great brand, but they're going to break this place.

[641] They're going to break our product.

[642] They're going to break our infrastructure.

[643] We invite that in.

[644] We want Supreme to be on because we know that if we can handle an iconic Supreme Flash Sale, we can handle anything else.

[645] And there's a little bit of like, there's this great book by Nistim Taleb called Anti -Fragile.

[646] You familiar with that?

[647] I love that book.

[648] And for those that haven't read the book, all you have to understand is that there are three systems.

[649] There's the fragile system.

[650] I take this glass.

[651] I drop it.

[652] It breaks.

[653] There's a robust system.

[654] I take this, I drop it, it stays as a glass.

[655] But there's a third system, like the immune system, where if you break it, it actually rebuild itself better, strong, or faster.

[656] And Shopify is fundamentally an anti -fragile company.

[657] And I think your companies are the same way.

[658] You guys invite what called pain, call it challenge, because ultimately you want to come out the other side better.

[659] And most companies, like literally 95 % of companies out there, maybe more, don't want that pain.

[660] They want to be copacetic, and they want to continue the status quo.

[661] Really interesting.

[662] You know, I mean, my head went all over the place when you're just going through those stories because I remember when this podcast started to grow, our provider actually told us to leave because we're bringing too much traffic.

[663] So that provider is never going to have incredibly successful podcast ever again because they told you to leave.

[664] What if they would have invited you to stay and said, we're going to build more resiliency for you?

[665] Yeah, they were like complaining about us.

[666] They were like.

[667] Shame on them.

[668] Shame on them.

[669] Yeah.

[670] So we moved to a different, someone else that could host us because they said that we had too many downloads or something.

[671] You have too many.

[672] That is literally saying you were too successful.

[673] Am I right, Chuck?

[674] I want to make sure I'm correct because you dealt with them.

[675] Yeah.

[676] They basically said we were costing them too much money.

[677] We were costing them too much money.

[678] By the way, most companies are like that.

[679] They fire customers that pull them in in different directions as opposed to the best companies embrace that and say, come, break our stuff.

[680] it's going to make us better if you believe like and by the way antifragility is not just something for companies also for human beings I think all the stuff we talked about about my upbringing made me better made me stronger do I wish those things wouldn't have happened potentially I mean in hindsight I wish I would have had I'd have less anxiety maybe but maybe I would be sitting here with with you Steve today if those things wouldn't have happened is resilience is resilience and if so then how do we foster resilience in teams and people because if you're at shopify and you're an ambitious company as I know you guys are and you're saying saying, you know, AI comes out and you're saying to the team, listen, forward.

[681] Let's figure this thing out.

[682] Let's build some stuff.

[683] And let's try it.

[684] Let's go forward.

[685] You're going to have to bring people along with you.

[686] And those people are going to go, I just got comfortable with what we're doing now, Harley.

[687] And now you're telling me to, so how do you create that culture that fosters that sense of like resiliency and positive attitude towards change?

[688] Yeah, two things.

[689] One is resiliency can be taught.

[690] You're not born resilient.

[691] You can actually learn resiliency.

[692] You can learn from your experiences.

[693] You can learn it from practice.

[694] But resiliency I don't believe is some of you either have or you don't.

[695] You can actually build resiliency.

[696] In fact, I think people, the most interesting people that I know that are resilient have had something happened to them that allowed them to build resilience on their own.

[697] Some of them, you know, cracked, but others actually, it's like, you know, the metaphor that I love to use, like a huge tidal wave is coming.

[698] Some people grab their surfboards and some people run for the beach, get the towel.

[699] I like the surfboard people.

[700] The server people are my people.

[701] Those are the entrepreneurs.

[702] In terms of how we do at Shopify is Shopify is a company.

[703] building software for entrepreneurs that is built by entrepreneurs.

[704] The amount of people at Shopify who had a business, have a business, are about to start a business, have side hustles, anyone you've ever met that works at Shopify, because I know the people you've met at Shopify, Steve, they're also entrepreneurs.

[705] And actually, rather than doing their own ventures, we are collectively coming together to build something much bigger together, like one plus one equals 10.

[706] And I think one of the ways that you foster a culture of resiliency is look for the entrepreneurs.

[707] The reason I met Toby in 2005 was I moved to Ottawa, to go to law school, had no friends, no family, had never been to the city.

[708] I only went there because a mentor told me to go to law school and he was teaching law at the University of Ottawa.

[709] That's how I got there.

[710] And I asked one simple question, anyone I met, where do the entrepreneurs hang out?

[711] And I found this coffee shop with five other entrepreneurs who every Friday night got together and spent time learning from each other and sharing war stories and sharing tactics.

[712] And that became my tribe, one of those entrepreneurs was Toby.

[713] So I love entrepreneurial people.

[714] I love resilient people.

[715] And so you can search those people out.

[716] When you're building your company, you're trying to create a culture that is, you know, super effective that has, it looks for the alpha opportunities, that is very ambitious, that works hard.

[717] Invite entrepreneurs into your company.

[718] Create an environment that entrepreneurs want to be there.

[719] And I think that's what we've done.

[720] And I think we've about 10 ,000 people at Shopify.

[721] And I would say the vast men, majority of them would say they're either entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs, but every single person at Shopify is very entrepreneurial.

[722] And it's the same reason where you told me a story earlier about, you know, Jack taking a photo of the of the bookshelf.

[723] I mean, I'm not just saying because he's filming us and he's got to make me look good here.

[724] But like, that's the entrepreneurial way to do it.

[725] The non -entrepreneur way to do it is to be like, yeah, we need some books.

[726] You have the exact same books behind you here as you do in London.

[727] Most people won't know.

[728] that, but I notice the amount of attention to detail you have and the care you've taken, that every, that that, that, that, that, that, that B is exactly where the B is on the shelf behind you.

[729] That matters.

[730] It doesn't matter to everybody, but it matters to the right types of people.

[731] And when you do that, you invite more of those people into your life.

[732] Do you, do you think as well, though, that when you think about companies and leaders and how the culture is set and how that philosophy of like attention to detail is set, I've often thought that you might get like a group of people, like disciples of the culture.

[733] Maybe.

[734] the original founders or something and they set they set that philosophy they go this is who we are we care about the bookshelf being the same no matter where we are in the world and then you have this other type of people who are susceptible to go either way depending on the culture they're in and if the culture is strong those people become the culture if they went somewhere else they probably behave differently and but that comes down to the culture just being absolutely crystal clear and the hiring of that culture being disciplined and the firing yeah i mean let me let me disagree with you on one point, I don't think culture should be static.

[735] I should think that every new person that joins your company or my company, the culture should change slightly.

[736] And hopefully it gets better over time.

[737] But I think there's a lot of companies that they put a poster of an eagle up on the wall that's his leadership underneath, and they call that culture.

[738] Or they say, you know, famously, Patty McCormick created what's now famously known as the Netflix culture guide.

[739] Yeah, I remember.

[740] And what was cool about that was the talent team, the recruiting team at Netflix gave out this culture guide in advance of you even applying to Netflix.

[741] It was a public document.

[742] So you can read this.

[743] And if this does not resonate or this is offensive to you, don't even apply.

[744] I think that's actually a very good thing to do because it's very honest about this is the type of place.

[745] I think one of the funniest lines in there was mediocre performance will lead to superior severance.

[746] I love that, right?

[747] It's super, super cool.

[748] So there's that aspect, which I think is really interesting.

[749] but I think the culture should continue to evolve and everyone that joins it should get better and better.

[750] But I want to just say something like this is this narrative of the early days I think it's bullshit.

[751] Like this is a better version of Shopify right now than we've ever had.

[752] Our team is better.

[753] Our leaders are better.

[754] Yeah, there's some romanticism about the early days where, you know, like there's a photo that floats around every now and that of me sweeping the floors.

[755] I get it.

[756] That was kind of romantic that we sweep the floors ourselves.

[757] But I actually think over time you can have a fan if you like part of this is like is your company founder led or professionally managed and those are fine things but i don't actually think you need to actually have a founder there to be to have a founder mindset i think you actually need to have if your culture is strong and people do the right thing when no one is watching and people are constantly challenging each other and people are constantly trying to like pull the product in in a really unique positive way that's a place where more people like us want to work and therefore other people like us want to work as well.

[758] And that's why I love the idea of like building a company for entrepreneurs built by entrepreneurs.

[759] That is really compelling.

[760] When I speak about culture, I think I'm kind of using the word interchangeably with the word in that particular case, maybe the word values.

[761] But if we think about company culture in the context you're describing it, I was doing some writing over New Year's and I was looking at the life cycles of companies and they often start like cults.

[762] And I went through, I think, IBM, Instagram, all of these huge companies.

[763] And I found quotes of the founders describing the early days like a cult.

[764] And then they go into this kind of growth phase where because everything is breaking and they're trying to keep up with the market demand, they're having to like rapidly install processes.

[765] This is usually where founders like hire someone who's got like gray hair who's done it before and they sit them down with the little cult and they're like help in that growth phase.

[766] And then they get to kind of like this enterprise phase where the processes are in place.

[767] work life balance has kind of been restored they have a lot of people so now they have like a hr department and things are different now going back to that first phase that cult phase it seemed pretty clear to me even like there was a quote from peter thiel where he was like you know um see words to the effect of the start should resemble a cult do you believe that it's something i've ponded because the word cult is such a toxic word so be careful yiali i mean i i i yeah i don't I'm not sure if cult's the word I would use.

[768] What I do think is that you need to have, like, and this is not just in early days, it's at every stage of a great company.

[769] You have to have a strong mission.

[770] And part of the reason that I think Shopify, for me at least, is the place where I can do my best work is because the mission is not interesting or cool.

[771] It really hits home for me. I'm not, it's not to say that I wouldn't be a good president of Pepsi.

[772] I'm sure Pepsi's mission.

[773] I don't know what it is, but I assume it's something like do something with the world and make people happy or something like that.

[774] Ultimately, they're selling products.

[775] They're selling sugar water and they're selling candy and they're selling chips and whatever they, whatever Pepsi sells.

[776] I don't think I can do my life's work at Pepsi.

[777] I don't because ultimately, at the end of the day, the mission of the company, even if you add all types of, you know, rose pedal glasses and you say, well, we're not, it's, we're not selling cola.

[778] We are, you know, we are nourishing the youth of the world to pursue their path.

[779] You're selling something that, like, I like, but I don't really love.

[780] And I think if you're, if you have the ability to find a company whose mission you believe in every, in any stage really hits you hard, that's probably the company you should go work at.

[781] And you probably say that for a very long time.

[782] And even the fact that not every person needs to say to every company forever, not everyone's going to be a lifer.

[783] That's okay.

[784] People want to jump on the bus or the rocket ship at different times.

[785] That's fun.

[786] but I think you do your best work when the mission of the company deeply reflects your own life's mission.

[787] If I wasn't at Shopify, if Shopify didn't exist, I probably would be doing something around encouraging more entrepreneurship, inspiring more entrepreneurs, creating tools that help entrepreneurs start scale and build faster.

[788] I just found this vehicle that does it way more efficiently that I ever could do on my own.

[789] It's called Shopify.

[790] So you damn right, I'm going to want to be on that bus or that rocket ship.

[791] But I don't think it has anything to with what's on the wall.

[792] I think it has to do with the fact, like, what is the company actually doing?

[793] If you strip away all the marketing speak and all the brands speak, what is the point of the company?

[794] What's the objective?

[795] And I think that really matters.

[796] For those entrepreneurs then that Shopify supports, when we talked about this Mount Everest analogy where you're thinking about starting a business, you're looking up, it feels super intimidating.

[797] We talked about how you can break that down into simpler steps, focusing on turning your hobby into a small business.

[798] You gave the example that many of Shopify's merchants don't even register the company by the time they start the store.

[799] The other part that's intimidating when I'm thinking about starting a business, if I'm a startup entrepreneur, is just information.

[800] And you used the word earlier on, use the word mentorship.

[801] Now, okay, I've got a philosophy to how I'm going to start it.

[802] I'm going to focus on a hobby, Harley.

[803] I don't need a ton of capital as you've outlined.

[804] But then there's this information piece, which is maybe the most important piece, because information, for example, is even the knowledge that a Shopify exists.

[805] It's also like, how do I find where I'm going to get this tea from?

[806] How would you recommend an entrepreneur solve the information problem?

[807] And if you could give me some kind of reference to your framework on mentorship, that would be super helpful.

[808] Yeah, I mean, the mentorship framework that I use, it's actually really simple.

[809] It's that I don't think any one particular mentor is going to be, you should wholesale take everything they say.

[810] Lindsay and I got married in 2013.

[811] And I thought about who are all the people?

[812] that I perceived to have a really great relationship with our spouses.

[813] And I went through the list.

[814] And I kind of laughed.

[815] I was like, okay, like, am I really going to ask that person to my mentor?

[816] Like, I don't really respect that person in any other avenue of their life.

[817] So like, why would that person be my mentor?

[818] So I went through this list and I realized, you know what?

[819] Like, I'm doing this all wrong.

[820] If I want to be a really good husband, a really good father, a really good leader of Shopify, I want to be a really good human being from a charity or philanthropy perspective, instead of trying to find one size fits all, like one person does all those things where it all comes together, it would be so much better for me actually to just focus on verticals.

[821] So in the vertical of parenting, who's someone that I think that's a really good job on parenting?

[822] Three or four people, I'll give them a call.

[823] The neat part of it doing it that way as opposed to saying, and by the way, the person that, like, I can't believe I'm sharing this, but this is kind of funny, I told you about a mentor of mine that convinced me to go to law school.

[824] I love that guy.

[825] huge part of my life.

[826] He's on his third marriage.

[827] He's not going to be my marriage mentor.

[828] He'd be a divorce mentor.

[829] Maybe, yeah.

[830] But he's really good about understanding skill set or skill stacking as we talked about.

[831] There was someone that I called when I was about to get married to Lindsay who I just felt had the most special relationship with his wife.

[832] And I began meeting him and asking questions about how do you cultivate that?

[833] The same thing with parenting.

[834] But all of these mentors in each of these verticals, they're not the same people.

[835] Now, the reason that's important is because like a video game or like any skill set, you can't be good at everything.

[836] And so I'm able to derive different things from each of these mentors and then create my own version of it.

[837] But the second reason, it's a really cool way to do it is that person who is a really great husband, but maybe not a great entrepreneur, a lot of people, like no one else is calling him to ask for his advice on parenting because most people are like, well, he's not someone that I'd want to emulate because in business he's not that successful or in other aspects of life, he's not someone who I'd admire.

[838] And so the way that I've always thought of mentoring is find these different people for different aspects of your life.

[839] And then as you evolve, you may have to replace them and bring them in, bring them out.

[840] Some people may be around for a long time, other people.

[841] After two years, I mean, I had a really good mentor around parenting who was really only valuable for newborns.

[842] And it turned out that a couple years, you know, as the kids grew, it wasn't doing a very good job.

[843] He wasn't teaching his kids all the cool stuff that I want to teach my kids, like skiing, for example.

[844] So that's sort of my philosophy on mentorship more generally.

[845] I think there's sort of two sides.

[846] So you've mentorship on this side, which is like people you want to emulate.

[847] But there's also the sort of the tribe side of things.

[848] The one thing that I don't think enough people take advantage of is whatever company you're trying to build in whatever vertical or geography or whatever place, there are probably dozens of other people doing that exact same thing, whether you're in London or you're in like Ottawa, Canada.

[849] and finding a group of people who are at a similar stage, even if they're not doing the same, like if I'm building a T -shirt business and you're building a DJ company, like, but I'm just getting started, you're just getting started, we probably both need to figure out how to set up a bank account and how to get our first sale.

[850] And we probably have to figure out like simple bookkeeping, for example.

[851] So finding people that actually are at a similar stage, even if they're not at the same vertical as you are, is super valuable.

[852] And those people exist.

[853] They're everywhere.

[854] But finding them used to be really difficult.

[855] I actually think now it's much easier go to Reddit, look on YouTube, like you can literally go, if there's a video about bookkeeping for DJ companies, there's probably a video on YouTube somewhere.

[856] Go look at the comments.

[857] Who's engaging the comments there?

[858] Who's replying to those comments?

[859] Or on Reddit, who's sort of a power user in a particular subreddit?

[860] You can find those people either online or in person, and you can build yourself in informal board of directors when you're getting started.

[861] Now, if one of you eclipses the other in terms of growth, you're probably not going to find as much value from that particular tribe as you previously did.

[862] You're going to We're not at a different tribe.

[863] But if you do this over time, you actually end up with far more, the acquisition of information gets much easier over time.

[864] And I don't think enough people take advantage of that.

[865] If I gave you, if I gave you $3 million and I said, Harley, you've got to invest $1 million in three companies, more specifically, three founders that are currently Shopify customers, who would you invest it in?

[866] And why would you choose those entrepreneurs and founders?

[867] It's like asking me like, you know, choose your babies.

[868] Yeah, choose your favorite child.

[869] Yeah.

[870] Really, I'm trying to get at the characteristics of the founders that you back.

[871] You know, I know right now it's almost, if you sort of word clouded social media right now, the term content creator would come up probably more than the other term.

[872] And I think actually it is completely misguided of what people think content creators are or do.

[873] I think a lot of people assume that what's happening right now in sort of the content creation spaces.

[874] You have someone that has a super successful podcast, for example, or a super successful blog or a super successful, you know, YouTube channel.

[875] And they want to, they want to expand their monetization.

[876] So they do something like they make t -shirts with, you know, the diary of CEO on it.

[877] The greatest content creators now that I see really building their brands are doing something totally different.

[878] And I know this is an obvious example, but What Kylie Jenner did with Kylie Cosmetics is nothing short of Burlant.

[879] Now, it's not to say that, you know, she came with a built -in audience.

[880] She was on this crazy TV show for her whole childhood.

[881] But she was someone who, if you followed her on social media eight years ago, eight years ago, you would have seen she really cares about makeup.

[882] She was in makeup tutorials and she was doing makeup classes and she was giving tips and tricks about makeup.

[883] And then eventually she's like, you know what, I want to create a better version of makeup for myself.

[884] And so she went into the lab.

[885] I know where the lab is.

[886] It's not too far from here.

[887] I know the store really well.

[888] And she went and she created what she believed was a better version of makeup called Kylie Cosmetics.

[889] And then she brought it to the world.

[890] What Jimmy did with like Beastburgers or with Feastables.

[891] Mr. Beast.

[892] Mr. Beast.

[893] Mr. Beast did with with Beastburger or Feastables.

[894] He didn't just go and go to a chocolate company and say, I want to create a Mr. Beast chocolate bar.

[895] He went.

[896] He loves chocolate.

[897] He loves chocolate, he also love burgers.

[898] And he said, let's create a better burger than I can get right now in Uber Eats.

[899] And he went and he cultivated it.

[900] He said, this is fucking delicious.

[901] And now he's going to actually distribute it.

[902] He's going to actually scale it.

[903] Those, I would definitely put one of those millions of dollars into the hands of a creator who's on the precipice of figuring out what exactly does my audience like and then creating a better version of that.

[904] Because I think that most of the content creators out there do create promotional products.

[905] where they put their sticker on something that already exists.

[906] But the good ones, the great ones, they actually improve on what already exists in the world.

[907] And then they have a built -in distribution channel because they already have an audience.

[908] So that would be the first one.

[909] The second one, I think, would be someone who does something very nichey.

[910] You and I are both in black t -shirts.

[911] In my opinion, there is someone who thinks about black t -shirts more than anybody else on the planet.

[912] His name is James.

[913] James Purse.

[914] James Perce is obsessed with black t -shirts.

[915] And so I love wearing black t -shirts, so this is maybe a selfish one.

[916] But I'd put a million dollars out of the three million that you're giving me metaphorically into James.

[917] And I would say, go do more of this.

[918] Because I actually, now I'm not sure he needs my money.

[919] Certainly Mr. Beast doesn't need my money either.

[920] But I love the idea of someone going super deep on one particular thing and building the best version of it on the planet.

[921] I don't think most people do it.

[922] I think most people start with something like a t -shirt and they go very, very broad.

[923] And James hasn't.

[924] I mean, he has, he makes other clothing, but he has a ping pong table, not joking that he makes, which is the most beautiful ping pong table I've ever seen.

[925] He has a couple of these sort of villa rentals in Mexico, which he designed himself.

[926] But he's, it's one particular vertical that I think is really, really cool.

[927] Maybe the third thing that I would, that I invest in.

[928] So content creator be first, someone like James Perst, who does one vertical really well, it'd be the second.

[929] The third one would be someone who is trying to bring something that was unattended, for the masses into their hands.

[930] So this microphone that we're using right now is a Sure SM7B.

[931] And from everything I've read, because I like this type of stuff, it is like one of the greatest pieces of engineering, audio engineering ever created, which is why Sure, who makes the microphone hasn't really changed it much.

[932] This is a great microphone.

[933] It's expensive.

[934] Someone who is taking a microphone like this, this type of quality, and creating a less expensive version of this, so more people can try their hand at podcasting, that would be really cool too.

[935] Interesting.

[936] Making like quality more accessible to the masses, right?

[937] That's right.

[938] And I don't just mean like there are other good microphones out there, but you know the difference between a DSLR camera that we're using now versus a webcam.

[939] Of course.

[940] And in terms of the characteristics of the human, what do you bet on?

[941] I mean, we talked about this a lot, so it's going to sound repetitive, but it's resiliency.

[942] I'm looking for those surfboard people, the people that see that wave and grab the surfboard.

[943] I want people that are optimistic, but I think generally the people that are that grab the surfboard are optimistic.

[944] I want people that are hardworking, but I find generally the people that grab the surfboard are also hardworking.

[945] I want people that are high character.

[946] I think those are often the same people.

[947] But I want someone who, if you were to give them a million dollars or $10 million or $100 million, they would still do the exact same thing the day later because that is their mission.

[948] That is their life's work.

[949] And I think if you find that, you should cherish that.

[950] Anyone who's watching that has found that thing that no matter what they had or don't have would do this particular thing, those types of people that I would back.

[951] I don't really care where they're based.

[952] I don't really care what their experience is.

[953] I care about, are they the surfboard people?

[954] Because I think surfboard people are deeply curious and deeply ambitious.

[955] We spoke to your team and asked them what you in particular were good at.

[956] Oh, God.

[957] They did not tell me you did that.

[958] Did they not?

[959] They did not.

[960] We said, could you tell us every.

[961] everything Harley's good at.

[962] And there was like a big sort of 30 second pause and then they just hung on the phone.

[963] And so we can, so we'll move on.

[964] We, I hear the gas book backstage here.

[965] Yeah.

[966] Someone in it for you probably couldn't hear that on the mics.

[967] But everyone, everyone that like works closely on me on my team are also all entrepreneurs themselves.

[968] They all have side hustles.

[969] Oh really?

[970] Yeah.

[971] No, they said lots of many, many, many amazing things about you.

[972] Um, many, many amazing things.

[973] The one that I wanted to focus in on because I couldn't quite, I wanted you to kind of explain this is one of your team members said he's very, very good at the telescope process of effective prioritization.

[974] What, what on earth does that mean?

[975] I calendar everything.

[976] Well, they made it sound much better.

[977] Maybe they should be the story tag.

[978] They said, I mean, I truly, like, before I came here, I wanted to grab a quick coffee.

[979] That was in the calendar.

[980] My meditation this morning is in the calendar.

[981] The things that I really, really care about, I diorize and I stick to that diorization.

[982] And because of that, I think it's easier for me to prioritize what's important in my life both professionally and personally than most people who they try to fit things in.

[983] I often don't walk into a place, you know, you ever meet those people that are like they're always kind of in a rush?

[984] Me. Okay.

[985] I'm not.

[986] I'm usually not a rush.

[987] I'm hard driving and I'm like, I'm always, you know, super go, go, go all the time.

[988] But I'm usually not a rush.

[989] And the reason is because the things that are deeply important to me are in the calendar.

[990] And I think most people don't, I think the user, I think a lot of people use their calendar for diarizing a Zoom call or diarizer, you know, scheduling, I don't know, like lunch.

[991] I, it's going to sound maybe lame to some people.

[992] It's worked well for me. In my calendar, you will see walk with Lindsay, like walk with my wife.

[993] You will see like ski time with Bailey or Zoe.

[994] Everything is in the calendar.

[995] Someone that I want to hang out with that I want to actually, a mentor of mine that I don't think I'm spending enough time with.

[996] They go in the calendar every four weeks and I commit to that.

[997] That helps me. I'm not sure.

[998] I'm like the best.

[999] the world's greatest prioritizer, but because of that I'm able to prioritize things in a way that that I think most people may not always be able to do.

[1000] So that's one thing.

[1001] In terms of the other prioritization, there's very few things that are like nice to have in my life.

[1002] I don't do the nice to have thing.

[1003] These are things that are in my life are must haves.

[1004] And Shopify is very important to me. Lindsay and the girls are very important to me. Like some of the charity projects we're doing, particularly some of the Jewish charity projects we're doing right now in Canada, are very important to me. There's not much else.

[1005] I'm not trying to also qualify for a marathon.

[1006] I'm not also trying to, you know, do research on some other topic.

[1007] Like, this is kind of the stuff that matters.

[1008] And so when we, when we, you and I first connected, I knew that I would one day would love to be on your show.

[1009] Why?

[1010] Because like, when I think about, do you know the concept of Ikega?

[1011] Yeah.

[1012] Yeah.

[1013] So when I think about the Ikega concept, which is really life's work, by the way, which is a Japanese, a Japanese version of it, which is far more elegant than the term life's work.

[1014] But what am I good at?

[1015] What is the world are going to find value in?

[1016] What can I get paid for?

[1017] And what adds the most amount of value, I think, generally.

[1018] I forgot the exact terms.

[1019] This conversation with you hits a bunch of those, like the intersections of then diagram.

[1020] This hits.

[1021] You're a great entrepreneur.

[1022] Your audience are great entrepreneurs.

[1023] I knew the conversation would be interesting because I listened to this podcast and I love your show.

[1024] It was obvious to say yes.

[1025] If someone else asked me to do a conversation for a couple of hours like we are today, I have to put it through the filter of like where does this hit on the ikigai spectrum or on the life's work spectrum?

[1026] I think that's why they say that.

[1027] During your time at Shopify, what has been your most difficult personal challenge?

[1028] Like what was the day or the period where you had your hardest time?

[1029] I think it was, on a personal level, it was probably the pandemic.

[1030] I felt very, very lonely.

[1031] I just, I was low in energy.

[1032] I was high in anxiety.

[1033] And I wasn't making time.

[1034] It was like, the pandemic was crazy for Shopify.

[1035] Overnight, every physical retailer shut down.

[1036] And we were really lucky in that a lot of them ended up coming online with Shopify.

[1037] That was really cool.

[1038] But we ended up hiring a ton of people very, very quickly.

[1039] We were always by ourselves.

[1040] We were fully, you know, fully remote at that point.

[1041] And I was not in a good place.

[1042] What do you mean you weren't in a good place?

[1043] I wasn't present at all for my, I don't think I was present for my team.

[1044] And I don't think I was present at home.

[1045] I felt like I was simply just trying to tread water.

[1046] And I wasn't making time.

[1047] I had this sort of great, and I talked about my calendar efficiency.

[1048] I had this great sort of plan usually.

[1049] And then the pandemic hit and like everything changed.

[1050] and scheduling all this time.

[1051] I didn't replace the time with mentors that I meet in person with virtual coffees.

[1052] I just canceled it.

[1053] And so I just, it was a very reactive period for me where I don't think I was mindful of what I needed to be a good leader and we were just hiring a ton of people and I was lonely.

[1054] I was really fucking lonely.

[1055] That was a low point on a professional side.

[1056] On a personal side, it actually happened a couple years prior to that.

[1057] And it was really ran the transition from being sort of C .O. to being president.

[1058] I felt like I was letting down the company.

[1059] I was letting down Toby.

[1060] I was letting down myself if I didn't have a particular role at the company.

[1061] And that role came with a huge headcount.

[1062] Like all these different teams reported up to me. From a headcount perspective, there were like 6 ,000 people that reported to me. It was kind of a crazy thing.

[1063] But I knew it wasn't the right job for me. But I did not have the self -confidence, nor did I have the, enough introspection to say, I'm in the wrong job.

[1064] And I was fortunate that other people, especially Toby, kind of pulled me into the new thing and said, hey, there's a role here that's different than what you're doing.

[1065] And if you can just get over the fact that you're not going to be, you're not going to have 6 ,000 direct reports, but rather you're going to have a couple hundred direct reports or maybe less than that even, but you're going to do more of the stuff you want, which also happens to be more valuable for Shopify, that we're going to have a new phase.

[1066] We have this thing in Shopify called Tours of Duty.

[1067] It's every three years.

[1068] And a tour of duty is, you know, it's a new mandate, new objective.

[1069] And for the most part, most of my tours of duty up until this most recent one, I was doing the same thing, was just grabbing as much as I can, like Swiss Army knife stuff.

[1070] But I never kind of settled in to say, where do I actually want to do?

[1071] Like, what is my craft here?

[1072] I always love storytelling, but I was never, I think I was too caught up with ego and insecurity to admit this is the shit I want to do.

[1073] I don't want this rest of my life.

[1074] I don't like it's so good at this.

[1075] And it was really with help with coaching and the people around me that I was like, hey, what if I actually just did this thing?

[1076] What if I took this other role called the president Shopify?

[1077] And I just focused on this one aspect versus all the other things I was doing.

[1078] And turned out, not only is it okay, but it's way more valuable.

[1079] And I think I'm a much more valuable member of our team because I've I've sharpened my point rather than become a well -rounded Riverstone.

[1080] In those dark moments and those hard times, did you speak to anybody?

[1081] As in what I'm saying, I mean, speak to the people that were next to you.

[1082] Did you speak to Toby?

[1083] Did you tell your wife how you were feeling?

[1084] My wife knew I wasn't happy.

[1085] Did you have a conversation?

[1086] No. I don't think I was able, I don't think at that particular moment I was able to actually even see it.

[1087] I was like, look, I've been here for a long time.

[1088] Maybe this is it.

[1089] Maybe I've hit my max here, right?

[1090] I mean, bitter for a third of my life.

[1091] Maybe this is it.

[1092] Maybe like I should just quit while I'm ahead.

[1093] And what I didn't fully appreciate is that the thing that I really want to do is also the thing that everyone else really wants me to do.

[1094] It's also really the thing that is most valuable to the company at this particular phase.

[1095] But yourself, but that's not enough.

[1096] Yeah.

[1097] I'm not doing enough.

[1098] I'm not contributing enough.

[1099] And what does that mean about me and myself?

[1100] That's right.

[1101] Like I'm not, obviously I'm not enough.

[1102] stuff.

[1103] I'm the happiest, I'm not just saying that because we're on camera.

[1104] At this particular moment, I'm the happiest and most fulfilled.

[1105] And I find the most meaning of my work that I have in a very, very long time.

[1106] And it's because I'm doing the thing I should be doing, which is this particular skill, this particular role that I have is kind of built perfectly from me. And I need to be okay with the fact that I don't have the largest headcount and most of the company doesn't report to me. And I don't really care about that.

[1107] What I care about is, am I adding the amount of value.

[1108] Do I feel like I'm growing?

[1109] Do I feel like I'm actually contributing both to the company, but also to my own developments?

[1110] And I think that's if you can find that, if you have people around you, your partners, your colleagues, your board, whatever it is, that give you the permission to do that.

[1111] Again, you can't just do what you want.

[1112] Like, you know, if I want to, like, if I just want to be the chef at Shopify, it's not really going to add much value.

[1113] But if It turns out and that the Venn diagram overlap of what am I really good at, what is a company value from me, and what is something that is uniquely in my skill set, wherever the Venn diagram overlaps, if you can do that, you win.

[1114] What about in the pandemic when you were struggling?

[1115] Did you have an actual conversation?

[1116] I'm asking this question because I'm so compelled by like when specifically with some men who are often a little bit more hesitant to talk, I'm compelled by this.

[1117] idea of like when we speak when we reach out to a friend a wife a partner to say listen i'm struggling here and do we do it after do we do it during when did you do it i i did it way too late i waited way too long for that and i wish i had and i think it would have saved a lot of grief um it would have i would have been i don't think the pandemic was especially great for anyone all of us sort of dealt with it in our own in our own way but i think that it i made it way more difficult on myself because I was lonely and unhappy and maybe had some sort of, you know, maybe there was, I talked about anxiety, but maybe there's a bit depression there as well.

[1118] However, I didn't talk to anyone about it because I didn't feel like I had the right to complain.

[1119] I didn't feel like I had enough, yeah, that I had enough permission to complain.

[1120] Like there were people that were losing their jobs and there were people that were dying.

[1121] They were sick.

[1122] Like, I'm going to complain about the fact that, like, I'm a bit lonely.

[1123] and in hindsight, I should have done differently.

[1124] I should have said, look, I recognize that I'm very fortunate, very blessed, but I also recognize that I'm also really lonely right now.

[1125] And I think what that would have, by telling people that, by saying it out loud, you know, there's that whole theory about don't tell people your goals.

[1126] I call bullshit.

[1127] I think it's ridiculous.

[1128] Don't tell me your goals.

[1129] I think you tell everybody your goals because the cool part is if you have people around you that are good people, they're going to hold you accountable.

[1130] and you may actually hit your goals way faster and more effectively and it's fun to share in a celebration and celebrate someone you know who deeply wanted to do something who actually ends up doing that thing.

[1131] It's funny because if you feel like you can't share with people your goals, it's really what you should do is get new friends.

[1132] Totally.

[1133] You know what I mean?

[1134] Like why wouldn't you want to tell your friends and the people around you have ambitions?

[1135] Well, the common critique of telling people your goals is that when you tell someone your goal, you as an individual, you get something from that.

[1136] And so the critique of it is you don't deserve anything by just saying something out loud.

[1137] I think it's complete bullshit.

[1138] I think if you want to do something and you tell, put it on social media.

[1139] In 12 months from now, I'm going to run a marathon or ultra marathon.

[1140] In 10 months from now, I'm going to have $2 million of sales in my online store.

[1141] In 10 months from now, I'm going to do something really challenging and difficult.

[1142] Especially in social media where people love to rip into each other.

[1143] That may hold you accountable.

[1144] So I did not do the right thing at that particular time.

[1145] I hesitated, and it's because of some weird bravado.

[1146] that like I'm strong, I'm capable and I'm fortunate and therefore I don't deserve to be unhappy or depressed or anxious.

[1147] And I actually think my biggest lesson from all of that is vulnerability for the right people.

[1148] To your point, good friends, good family, good colleagues, good partners.

[1149] It shows strength.

[1150] It does not show weakness.

[1151] And I was very weak and I didn't want to show vulnerability.

[1152] I wrote in my diary the other day that vulnerability is a magnet not a repellent.

[1153] And I think in our masculinity, in our toxic masculinity sometimes, in our sense of wanting to be what we think strong is, the sort of misrepresentation of strength, we see being vulnerable as a repellent, as in I will lose things.

[1154] People will leave me. They'll think I'm weird or weak or whatever.

[1155] And then every time I've ran the experiment of vulnerability.

[1156] And when I say experiment, I mean because it feels risky sometimes.

[1157] It's a magnet.

[1158] It draws the world doing.

[1159] It's like the antidote for loneliness in many respects.

[1160] And there's another really important thing to say, because you in that basement during the pandemic, your family were there in the house.

[1161] And we often confuse this idea of being alone with loneliness.

[1162] Totally.

[1163] And Simon Sinek's, actually, I give him credit, he came on the podcast the other day and he said, he talked about how lonely he is right now.

[1164] And the brain goes, do you not have any friends?

[1165] He goes, I have loads of friends.

[1166] I've loads of people around me, have a big team.

[1167] But I'm lonely.

[1168] There's an important distinction to make, which I'm sure you can speak to when you're, because I was thinking about you had your family, hedge your wife.

[1169] But I was like, no, Steve, you're falling into the trap again.

[1170] again.

[1171] He wasn't alone.

[1172] So I was not alone, but I was lonely.

[1173] And actually, this is where, going back to your point earlier, which is a great point about entrepreneurship being a lonely activity or a lonely sport, by having more people around you on the journey with you, even if they're on their own journeys, but they're sort of tangential to your journey, it's a little bit less lonely.

[1174] Yeah.

[1175] And if you do that across a couple different areas of your life, like if you work out at a gym where you go for runs in the morning, finding someone else to run with you.

[1176] you is one thing, but finding someone else to run with you who's sort of going through the same, like, I want to run five kilometers and it's tough for me right now.

[1177] You do it with somebody else who also wants to run five kilometers and stuff for them too.

[1178] There's an immediate connection there.

[1179] So in one case, you're not alone, like you're not alone, because you're someone running with you, but you're lonely.

[1180] In other case, if you're on a similar journey together and you have a shared experience or you're sharing an experience, that takes away from the loneliness.

[1181] How does that square with Shopify's approach to remote working?

[1182] Because I've, this is a debate I've ponded over and over and over again in my head, which is like, there's no correct answer here.

[1183] We all know that.

[1184] Everyone's got a different mission.

[1185] Every company's got a different mission.

[1186] But one of my reasons against this total remote work scenario is because I think there's been a decay in community institutions in our world.

[1187] So in the UK, like all the pubs are shutting down.

[1188] We don't have community centers, churches, etc. Work seems to be one of those institutions that remains that does bring us together.

[1189] Although that's a dangerous thing also, right?

[1190] Of course.

[1191] And it's also age and demographic specific and there's a little bit of privilege in there as well because you know everyone's situation is different this is something I'm evolving on but when I'm like an 18 19 year old just left university when I'm 21 years old and I've just left university I want to be do I not want to be around people um to build connections to build skills for synchronous work what will I not be more lonely doing remote work potentially from my studio apartment in the middle of the city where I live in a cardboard box, as I used to once upon a time.

[1192] How do you square all of that together?

[1193] So the reason that we're not fully remote is because of that exact reason.

[1194] We had about, I don't know, 10 or 11, something like that offices around the world.

[1195] And we were full time in the office pre -pendemic.

[1196] And now we sort of have this model which we refer to as digital by design, which means that office centricity is over.

[1197] And the reason that's important for us is that we've been building this company out of Canada, you know, for almost two decades now.

[1198] And so in every single job offer we gave, there was an asterisk that said, it's part of this offer, there's a condition you have to move to Canada.

[1199] And so that immediately limited the type of talent, type of people that have come to Shopify.

[1200] And so there's a real advantage to the fact that now you can work anywhere you want.

[1201] So that's, that's really valuable for us.

[1202] First time that, you know, our new CFO is based in New York.

[1203] Our new GC is based in D .C. Our chief operating officers is down south.

[1204] That is great.

[1205] People can live wherever they want.

[1206] However, we didn't close the offices.

[1207] We converted them from, quote, quote, offices to more of these we call bursting locations, where you can come in for a burst, which is just an onsite.

[1208] And we actually not only like the idea of people coming in, we force people to spend time with their teams in person at least once a quarter.

[1209] And what you see is the healthiest teams may not have to meet as regularly because there's enough of a trust battery where the residue of the trust battery can be, you know, can be distributed.

[1210] But for teams that are just forming, it is really important for them to be in person.

[1211] We really encourage that.

[1212] So we're not really hybrid because it's not three days in, two days out or anything like that.

[1213] It's it just work from anywhere you want with the condition that you must spend time together with your team in person, at least once a quarter, in some cases, once every month.

[1214] Every solution, every answer has a downside.

[1215] For sure.

[1216] Office centricity has a downside, a clear one.

[1217] What's the downside in your view of that work from wherever you want, but once a quarter?

[1218] It depends on if your manager really likes the idea of being in person.

[1219] You're probably going to be in person more often.

[1220] And if your manager does not, you may be less.

[1221] So we're trying to work around that and create some guardrails there.

[1222] But I don't think there's any perfect solution.

[1223] A lot of companies are going the opposite way now.

[1224] You're hearing like Snapchat and Twitter on Twitter.

[1225] They're all going, they seem to be going back to like 80 % in the office, etc. The good news of the bad news is I don't think anyone's got this right.

[1226] Right?

[1227] And the companies that will get it right longer term are going to be the ones that are most introspective about this.

[1228] What's working?

[1229] What's not?

[1230] Be honest about it.

[1231] So we know that being fully remote doesn't work for us.

[1232] We need to be in person sometimes.

[1233] We also realize that it's really an amazing opportunity for Shopify who can have an incredible role, building great product or doing something at the company that's very valuable and live anywhere they want.

[1234] That is an amazing.

[1235] I, you know, in the early days of shop, I moved to Ottawa, Canada for Shopify.

[1236] And that's, that's a big thing for my family.

[1237] So the fact that they can live anywhere, I think is really good.

[1238] But I don't think anyone has really knocked it out of the park just yet.

[1239] What I would also say is that, just back to the Simon Seneca quote or philosophy, I think we all need, like we may not go to church as much anymore or youth groups or, you know, organized sports.

[1240] I think we all need our own version of that tribe.

[1241] And I think developing your own community and your own tribe, even if you guys sit around and stare at screens and you're playing video games, together.

[1242] I think having these rituals, I'm not religious, I'm Jewish, but I'm not religious, but every Friday night we have a Sabbath dinner, Shabbat dinner.

[1243] And we say sort of the very basic Jewish prayers, but this ritual that my kids look forward to where they, you know, they say Shabbat Shalom and my wife, you know, makes us amazing like home -cooked dinner.

[1244] I mean, no matter what happens, I'm home Friday nights.

[1245] Even if I have to travel, I'll go home, then I'll leave Saturday morning because that is a ritual that I think is important.

[1246] But I think we, all need rituals in our lives.

[1247] And I think the cool part of rituals is, like, you can create new ones all the time.

[1248] The key, though, is consistency.

[1249] And the direction of travel at a very macro level with all these things that are happening in technology seems to be one in which, where we're being stripped of community and in -person connection, which seems to humans aren't changing.

[1250] Technology is, but our innate fundamental Maslowian or, like, psychological needs aren't changing.

[1251] But the society we live in, I think, is optimising against our, against natural connection, living in, you know, four white walls in the middle of a big city alone, swiping on Tinder, ordering your food, using a piece of glass screen.

[1252] All of these things seem to be robbing us of that connection.

[1253] And I reflect on this a lot, I go, the reason why the Dyer of a series is successful, and the reason why a lot of the things we've done have really worked well in terms of, like, the content and the media, is because we, without really being that intentional about it, to be honest, have created a sense of connection for people.

[1254] they will hear your story about your own insecurities or about the things you've struggled with and that'll make them feel heard and understood and connected in some way.

[1255] I love that.

[1256] I actually think that that is one of the most, this sort of shared experience, even if I don't know you, is really impactful.

[1257] We may not know each other.

[1258] We may have never met before, people that are watching.

[1259] But if anything that I said, anything in my story resembles your own or resonates with you, hopefully all I can, what you take from this is that, like, there is a way, to get over some of these things.

[1260] Some things you don't get over, you simply manage it better.

[1261] But there's no one, like I have not met, I get a chance to meet pretty much anyone I want, just like you do.

[1262] Nobody has it figured out.

[1263] Nobody is 100 % happy all the time.

[1264] No one has a great relationship, great career, great health, great family, no one has that.

[1265] But the best ones, in my view, are the ones that are self -aware of what to work on, and they have tactics and tools and traits to sort of move towards a better version of themselves.

[1266] They grab their surfboard when things come on the resiliency side.

[1267] They are very honest about when they're lonely.

[1268] They say, I'm lonely.

[1269] Here are the changes I have to make.

[1270] But no one has it all figured out.

[1271] And I think that in itself is what I figured out, when I had this sort of epiphany that, holy shit, no one has their shit together.

[1272] We're all trying to figure it out in our own ways.

[1273] It was freeing for me. It's so true that nobody's there.

[1274] It's like a party that you're striving towards that actually nobody.

[1275] You know everyone.

[1276] I mean, you know more people than I. Like, the people that sit in this chair that, you know, are way more successful than I am.

[1277] I've listened to a lot of your, your interviews.

[1278] We're all kind of working on our own shit.

[1279] Yeah, everyone is.

[1280] And the ones that say that they're good.

[1281] I don't know.

[1282] I think they're lying.

[1283] On that point then, so we've, we made these cards.

[1284] They're actually on sale on Shopify.

[1285] We use Shopify to sell these cards.

[1286] And it's very much.

[1287] I'm glad you, I didn't want to say that.

[1288] You saw that.

[1289] They're called the Diary of a CEO conversation cards.

[1290] And what we've done is we've taken all of the questions that all of our guests have left in the famous Diary of a CEO, all of the amazing guests we've had on the show.

[1291] We've always asked them to write a question that helps people to go a little bit deeper.

[1292] And we've made them into these cards.

[1293] On the front of the card, you'll see the question and the person who wrote the question.

[1294] On the back, you have a QR code, scan that.

[1295] You can see that the next guest that had to answer it.

[1296] So we're really letting the cat out of the bag here.

[1297] I picked three cards for you.

[1298] The idea is that people will buy these and then play them at home with their friends and connect because vulnerability is the daughter connection.

[1299] You just have to pick one.

[1300] Sure.

[1301] Gary Neville.

[1302] Tell me something you've never told anyone before.

[1303] I don't think I'm a great father.

[1304] I want to be a great father, but I don't feel I'm a great father.

[1305] I feel like I only have, I have like 10 units of energy, and if I give units of energy somewhere else, then I don't give it to that.

[1306] And I haven't figured out the right dynamic yet.

[1307] And I worry that at some point, my kids will be too old, they'll be out of the house, and it'll be too late.

[1308] And I really want to be a great father.

[1309] So that's kind of, it's quite vulnerable, but that's the truth.

[1310] Is that because of your definition of what a great father looks like is maybe not fitting the great father that you are?

[1311] Potentially.

[1312] Do you see what I mean by that?

[1313] Yeah, I do.

[1314] Because you're an inspiration.

[1315] So, I mean, this goes back to, am I enough of a father?

[1316] Am I enough?

[1317] But the thing about the, like, being a great father is there is a limited time component to it.

[1318] I don't know how much, like Bailey is six.

[1319] In 12 years, she's going to be off out of the house somewhere, I suspect.

[1320] I get 12 years to become a great father.

[1321] And I don't know exactly the right path to get there.

[1322] I know what my weaknesses are, but they're a little bit elusive.

[1323] I'm my present with them.

[1324] I'm mindful to their needs.

[1325] But that's something that I struggle with.

[1326] And I'd like to be, if I sort of think about three or four things, I once in my life that I want to be world class, my work, my relationship to Lindsay, my contribution to the world, charity perspective, that fourth bucket is kind of be a really great dad.

[1327] And I don't also know how to gauge that.

[1328] a lot of the other metrics I can gauge.

[1329] Lindsay was very clear to say, like, you're a great husband or like you weren't a great husband this week.

[1330] My work can be reflected by my performance.

[1331] I don't think the stock price is exactly directly.

[1332] You know, I don't think that's more correlation versus causation.

[1333] But the other points in my life, my contributions to the community, I can measure those things.

[1334] I don't know if I can measure if I'm a great father or not.

[1335] Because of that, it makes the whole thing really challenging.

[1336] maybe like the other things we've spoken about this great father party is a party that nobody is at potentially um i've never met someone that says i am a great father yeah you may be right um now maybe actually the pursuit of that is in itself what i'm trying to do as is the case with the life right right exactly exactly right um but by the way even like okay go back to vulnerability millions of people are going to watch this.

[1337] And maybe there is someone who's watching that actually, it's like, hey, I actually think I am a great father.

[1338] And here are the couple things that I use to gauge that.

[1339] Interesting.

[1340] You know, one of my friend of mine who, he's not really my parent role model, but maybe he becomes that at some point.

[1341] I asked him what a great father or a great parent does.

[1342] And he says, one thing, independence.

[1343] Are your children able to be truly independent?

[1344] I thought that was really interesting as sort of a metric for gauging whether or not you've raised, you were a good parent.

[1345] Another one says, like, you know, there's a famous quote, which is, you're only as happy as your least happy child.

[1346] Have you heard that, right?

[1347] I've actually heard the corporate version of that, which is like, your only successful is your least successful division of your company, which is also a really interesting way to kind of put that.

[1348] But that would sort of be the one that that, I don't think I've admitted that because I haven't really had a venue to actually say something like that before.

[1349] We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks our question for the next guest.

[1350] We'll see that's what becomes these conversation cards.

[1351] The question that's been left for you, interesting one, because it's a bit left field, but what's a common misconception people have about you?

[1352] And more importantly, how does it make you feel?

[1353] Because I talk so much about entrepreneurship, there is, I've heard this now from a number of people that I don't ever talk about the failures that I've had from a business perspective.

[1354] And partially I don't do that because I don't think they're necessarily that valuable relative to some of the successes.

[1355] We talk about DJing and T -shirts and Shopify.

[1356] There are literally 20 other companies that I've started that have been total fucking failures.

[1357] And I think the common misconception is that the stuff that I've worked on have all been not huge success, but generally successful because I talk about them so much.

[1358] And it makes me feel sometimes like I'm not more recently that I'm not being as helpful or honest as I should be because I just don't have I don't have the space or the venue to talk about the slipper company, the poker chip company, the nurse uniform company.

[1359] Like those are all real companies that I started when I was in college or undergrad or when I was a teenager that failed miserably.

[1360] And the misconception is that I think that everything that I've worked on has turned out to be good or successful.

[1361] When you look at yourself in the mirror, and I'm just saying that as a metaphor, and then you look at the perception of you, does that create a certain dissonance or a feeling of like, I don't know, people call it imposter syndrome, which is a time I don't love.

[1362] But often when you become, when you reach high places because you're involved in very successful ventures and pursuits, there's this kind of like perception which might not match the perception or the voice that whispered.

[1363] is in your head when you're alone.

[1364] I have that as well.

[1365] So here's another way to put sort of the failure thing.

[1366] I do a lot of TV and I'll get feedback that, you know, that was really great.

[1367] I saw you in the show or I saw you do this interview or saw you on Squawk Box.

[1368] And I'm like, great.

[1369] Yeah, thanks.

[1370] I appreciate the comment and stuff.

[1371] Sometimes I want to tell them, and I don't often tell them, do you know that I put in five hours of work memorizing those data points?

[1372] I think sometimes I like to pretend like it comes easy to me it does not come easy to me I work really really hard in my craft my if you think I'm a good storyteller or you don't think I'm good story like I put a lot of time into preparing for my conversation with you today a lot of time I've watched all your interviews I literally as I told you like I didn't finish my run until I listened to the entire Seth Rogan interview I don't think I do I do a disservice I think to a lot of people And I'm working on this already around vulnerability of actually sharing this is not easy for me. I'm not naturally, I can naturally memorize.

[1373] I don't have photographic memory.

[1374] What I do have is a really good work ethic.

[1375] And I should be talking more about that than actually showing my work more than just the result of my work.

[1376] So when I look in the mirror and I think to myself, where is the dissonance?

[1377] It's that sometimes less recently, but certainly oftentimes previously in the past years, I've made it seem like this is easy for me and it's not easy for me and I was never the smartest kid in any of my classes I never got I probably made it seem like I was smarter than I wasn't in the classes when I wanted to do all in a class I just outworked everybody else and I think if you should if anyone out there wants to emulate anything that I've done emulate my work ethic and the journey not the destination because it's been fucking hard and still fucking hard.

[1378] And I embrace it and I enjoy it and I wouldn't trade for anything else in the world.

[1379] But I've had tons of failures and I work really hard to make sure that I have fewer of those over time.

[1380] But it doesn't come easy to me. Harley, thank you so much.

[1381] Incredibly enjoyable conversation and I've learned so much.

[1382] But I've, it's funny that I've done so many of these podcasts and I still continue to learn from every single individual and so many incredibly unique and for me really defining ways.

[1383] I wanted to close with just one thing because I think I'm thinking forward at the guests we've got coming up and the guests we've had previously and maybe you're the guest best place to answer this.

[1384] This started as a very business -centric show, business -centric podcast.

[1385] Started as me as a young entrepreneur, building a company, et cetera, et cetera.

[1386] There's a huge part of my audience base that are doing exactly that right now.

[1387] Like they're like, maybe they've started their Shopify store, maybe it's day, one.

[1388] They know what they want to sell.

[1389] Maybe they don't.

[1390] Maybe they're not quite there yet.

[1391] But if there were a piece of advice you could lend to someone who wants to go on that journey of entrepreneurship, of all the things we've discussed today, what would that closing remark be?

[1392] Remember, remember that the cost of failure right now is the lowest it's ever been in the history of the world.

[1393] And because you, if you can remember that, it means that there's absolutely with no reason why you shouldn't keep trying.

[1394] And if it doesn't actually work, try something else.

[1395] I think this idea of cost of failure is a fascinating one because it's never going to be zero, right?

[1396] Because ultimately, like, there is an opportunity cost in your time.

[1397] You could be doing something else.

[1398] You could be watching TV.

[1399] You could be playing video game.

[1400] You could have a job.

[1401] But knowing that you are interested in entrepreneurship and at the same time in modern day, you also realize that the cost of failure is as close as zero as it's ever been, means that if you have any instinct to start a business in the shower, when you're driving, when you're on a walk, randomly you have this like, this would be a cool idea.

[1402] Try it.

[1403] When you look across the millions of stores on Shopify, who've now sold more than half a trillion dollars on Shopify, the vast majority of them did not wake up and say, I'm going to be a great entrepreneur.

[1404] They tried something.

[1405] It worked.

[1406] They scaled it.

[1407] They tried something.

[1408] It didn't work.

[1409] They tried something else.

[1410] That was one they scale.

[1411] When you look across the stores on shop that have been successful, all of them didn't start out with this vision of building a billion dollar company at some point.

[1412] And I think that the fact that we can start a business now for the price of a couple cups of coffee and that business can grow to be a large multinational, multi -billion dollar company, if that's what you want, that did not happen.

[1413] And it certainly did not happen in the time span that's happening right now.

[1414] The companies now, there are companies on Shopify today where they're doing a billion or more in sales that didn't exist six years ago.

[1415] Six years ago, it was a shower idea, and now they're a multi -billion dollar company.

[1416] Or if you don't care about building a billion dollar company, they've changed their entire vertical, their entire, their world, whatever that, whatever the world they're in, they've changed it entirely and it'll never be the same again.

[1417] And so...

[1418] What a time to be alive.

[1419] What a time to be alive.

[1420] What a time to be someone who actually has an idea and wants to share that idea with the world.

[1421] And if you're not sure about an idea, what you could sell, how you could start.

[1422] Think about something you already do.

[1423] There is a store on Shopify that sells the most delicious mutzabal soup.

[1424] What's mutzabal?

[1425] Mutzabal soup is a Jewish chicken soup.

[1426] It's just mutzabal.

[1427] It's like a, if you go to a Jewish deli, you should actually try this.

[1428] You should go to shop.

[1429] There's a store on Shopify that says mutzabal soups.

[1430] And when you look at the story of how it got there, they were just making muttsabal soup for their friends and family.

[1431] And at some point, they realize, maybe I can share this with the world.

[1432] And they do.

[1433] And now they have a real business doing the thing they already we're doing except now someone is paying them for that.

[1434] That is incredible.

[1435] And that's the time we're living in right now.

[1436] What a time to be alive.

[1437] Harley, thank you so much for your time and your generosity.

[1438] It means well to me. And it's been an incredibly important conversation.

[1439] Great conversation.

[1440] Thank you for reminding me.