Ethan Kross

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] Experts on expert.

[2] I'm Nurse Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Dr. Monica Padman.

[3] This doctor, Monica Padman.

[4] The man?

[5] The pad.

[6] The padman.

[7] I don't even feel comfortable saying this doctor about myself.

[8] It didn't even sound right, didn't feel right.

[9] I hated it.

[10] You got to have your own.

[11] I'm this doctor.

[12] So maybe you could you be that doctor?

[13] No, Dr. D is that doctor.

[14] That's true.

[15] That's true.

[16] What do you want to be?

[17] A doctor?

[18] Could I be, could I, this doctor, that doctor.

[19] They doctor, us doctor.

[20] Okay.

[21] I need to mull it over.

[22] Doctor's doctor.

[23] Ooh, doctor's doctor.

[24] Yeah, I kind of like that.

[25] Join by Monica Mouse, this doctor's doctor.

[26] Wow, that works on a lot of levels.

[27] Oh, Ethan Cross is our guest today.

[28] And Ethan is an experimental psychologist, a neuroscientist, and a writer who's specializes in a motion regulation.

[29] Do you know why this is a ding, ding, ding?

[30] I'm pretty sure he's a doctor.

[31] Oh, he must be.

[32] Let's say Dr. Ethan Cross.

[33] Oh, he doesn't say?

[34] Well, but no, it doesn't.

[35] But let's say worst case scenario, we call someone a doctor that's not.

[36] They'll never sue over that or be offended.

[37] That's true.

[38] But we're about the facts, but okay.

[39] I was in a whole rabbit hole in my head laying in bed two nights ago with this doctor thing.

[40] Okay, tell.

[41] I decided I don't like that you have to call doctor's doctor.

[42] like when you're just talking to them like Mike like that you got to say doctor so because can I make my case I guarantee you're supportive of that right but do you mean medical doctor well all the people you're supposed to say like Dr. Smith doctor you know phone call for doctor whoever just when you talk to a doctor you're supposed to call them doctor whatever you know that right yeah I don't like it can I tell you why yeah okay Okay.

[43] It's just a weird status acknowledgement.

[44] And albeit, doctors are very noble people, but there are also many other occupations that are noble.

[45] And you would never say like Roof or John or lawyer Mike.

[46] So there's a status thing.

[47] You don't say, you just don't say it about any other occupations.

[48] So I'm a little...

[49] That's true.

[50] I don't know.

[51] Sorry.

[52] and even bring that up on your, because you're worthy of the title.

[53] And he is, I just double checked.

[54] He is, in fact, a doctor.

[55] Okay, Dr. Ethan Cross is an experimental psychologist, a neuroscientist, and a writer who specializes in a motion regulation.

[56] He has a really cool new book called Chatter, The Voice in Our Head, Why It Matters, and How to Harness It.

[57] Now, we love this one because we have the loudest fucking racket going on upstairs.

[58] We sure do.

[59] At all times.

[60] Yes, and I've used some of the techniques.

[61] I really like them.

[62] It's really worth trying.

[63] Yes.

[64] And thank goodness there's some tools.

[65] You feel powerless over that racket or the chatter, as Dr. Ethan would say.

[66] So please enjoy Dr. Ethan Cross.

[67] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and add free right now.

[68] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[69] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[70] And then I bet Dr. Ethan Cross can see what's happening here.

[71] What's happening here?

[72] Got some Jordans there?

[73] Well, but what do these Jordans make you think of?

[74] They make me think of my childhood in Brooklyn.

[75] Okay.

[76] Well, that's very fair.

[77] But they're U of M colors.

[78] Oh.

[79] Let me get it back up here.

[80] Okay, very nice.

[81] Are we a gold blue family?

[82] I'm from Milford, Michigan, 20 miles up U .S. 23 for me. you.

[83] Well, you never know.

[84] Sometimes people have the audacity to like the green, those green colors, you know.

[85] Yeah, my sister went there.

[86] I mean, I should be sympathetic to it.

[87] Yeah, so the two of you, so we've got Michigan and then also Atlanta.

[88] My wife is from Atlanta.

[89] So this is like a whole family fest basically here.

[90] What part?

[91] Sandy Springs.

[92] Oh, Sandy Springs.

[93] I'm from Duluth.

[94] Oh, okay.

[95] Do you know Sandy Springs?

[96] Yeah, of course.

[97] Is it how close to you was it?

[98] It's not too far.

[99] I would say probably 40 -ish minutes.

[100] Okay.

[101] Do you want to tell the doctor about the Georgia Red Clay?

[102] Well, if you must know, Dax defecated this morning and said it was resembled Georgia Red Clay.

[103] I'm so sorry you had to hear that.

[104] I thought it would be a good icebreaker.

[105] There was an evacuation and it was undeniably Georgia Red Clay.

[106] Listen, I have two young daughters and they love legumes.

[107] So I'll just say, you want to go there?

[108] We could go there.

[109] I mean, no worries.

[110] How old are your daughters?

[111] They are 10 and 6.

[112] Okay.

[113] I've got 6 and 7.

[114] So we're in a similar world, similar world.

[115] And you're from Brooklyn.

[116] How do you feel about raising these girls in Ann Arbor?

[117] Are you excited about it?

[118] Or do you feel like they're missing out on the city experience?

[119] I love it.

[120] I grew up in Brooklyn.

[121] I like to tell people terrible dad joke here before it was cool.

[122] But I really mean that.

[123] When I grew up there, it was, like, not a pleasant place to live.

[124] I worked my butt off in school to leave and never come back.

[125] And so it gives me great delight that my daughters can, you know, walk to school and just hang out outside.

[126] I never had that kind of experience.

[127] So I love it.

[128] Yeah, Ann Arbor, if you're going to be in Michigan, it's in the top three, I'd say areas you'd want to be.

[129] Trevor City is pretty darn nice to live, I think, as well.

[130] Oh, yeah.

[131] I often think if U of M was in Traverse City with the water, it would be perfect.

[132] It already is pretty close, but it would be even nicer.

[133] No one thinks.

[134] So I tell people like the peninsula, it's like there are vineyards up there.

[135] You feel like you're in France.

[136] I mean, it's beautiful.

[137] And, you know, people just look at me like I'm out of my mind.

[138] Like, you drunk the Kool -Aid.

[139] You're in Michigan now.

[140] You know, you've lost touch with reality.

[141] But you could back me up on that, right?

[142] It's pretty amazing.

[143] Well, so good, Monica, because we kidnapped her and we forced her to vacation.

[144] on Lake Michigan two summers ago.

[145] And we brought other Californians, and they kept going like, I'm so confused.

[146] This is not the ocean.

[147] It was so confusing that it was a lake.

[148] It was not a lake.

[149] It was an ocean.

[150] They were calling in a lake.

[151] Yeah.

[152] It's just, it's remarkable.

[153] Yeah, it's a little secret.

[154] So, you know, it would be nicer if they were better sushi.

[155] Sure, sure.

[156] Some more restaurants would be fun.

[157] But otherwise, we're pretty happy here.

[158] Now, we're going to eventually talk about one of our favorite topics, which is the racket in our heads.

[159] I guess that's what we say in AA.

[160] We're fond of calling it the racket.

[161] But we're going to get into that internal monologue we all do, or the dialogue or the inner voice.

[162] But before we do, I guess I'm curious, do you have theories on why you're interested in psychology to begin with?

[163] You started at Penn as an undergrad and then Columbia Ph .D. What was it about psychology that interested you?

[164] Well, so my story goes way back to, you know, three years old because I had a dad who was an unconventional dad and, you know, he was not an academic.

[165] He was a salesman.

[166] And from the time I was three, he would basically, whenever something bad happened, he would encourage me to go inside.

[167] He'd tell me, go inside, find the colonel.

[168] You know, colonel, what colonel are you talking about?

[169] But he's the, you know, get to the heart of the matter.

[170] And so he basically encouraged me from the time I was really young.

[171] to introspect when anything bad happened.

[172] And I listened to my dad and his lessons served me well for much of my childhood and adolescence when, you know, I asked my crush out in high school and she said, no, I inspected, I moved on, I didn't get stuck, and I figured it out, you know, so forth and so on.

[173] And so I was really good at managing myself.

[174] Yeah.

[175] This was a tool I relied on.

[176] And then I got to Penn. Can I pause you really quick?

[177] Yeah.

[178] Just because I had a car salesman dad, and I'm so now jealous, because my father was like, if you are, let's say, the crush, if that didn't go your way, you try to sleep with her best friend.

[179] That would have been my dad's advice.

[180] You know, go buy something or go do something flashy.

[181] So I'm a little jealous.

[182] Bad advice.

[183] No, no. Car salesman advice.

[184] Well, you know, it's all a matter of perspective.

[185] What did you get for your fifth birthday from your dad?

[186] You remember?

[187] Oh, no, no. What did your dad get you when you were five?

[188] He got me a mantra.

[189] Get the fuck out of here.

[190] Yeah, yeah.

[191] He took me to a transcendental meditation center in New York City.

[192] And, you know, I was hoping for a bicycle or the next transformer.

[193] And so, you know, that didn't happen.

[194] And so my buddies are hanging out and I'm learning about meditation.

[195] And even the worst part is you're not allowed to share your mantra with anyone.

[196] I hate that part.

[197] You can't even tell your buddies what you got.

[198] You can only be vague.

[199] It speaks to how formative that experience was.

[200] I still, I don't think I've ever told someone what my mantra is, even though it's silly, but I like imprinted on that.

[201] Yeah, I think I have to tell my wife first.

[202] Oh, man, I've been trying to get everyone to tell me their mantras for years.

[203] Didn't David Walton tell us his?

[204] Yes, he did.

[205] He loves me the most.

[206] Yeah, because he got suspicious that everyone has the same one because he found out he and his buddy were given the same one, and then they tried to.

[207] go to a third guy and he wouldn't tell him.

[208] And I said, look, here's what I'll do.

[209] You tell me yours.

[210] And if it's the same, I'll admit it is.

[211] And thank God it wasn't, because I started to get a little suspicious that it's all the same mantra as well.

[212] So yeah, I mean, he was an interesting character, my dad.

[213] What forced him to be that way?

[214] These things don't happen on their own, do they?

[215] You know, my dad, you know, not a college grad, but was always fascinated by Eastern philosophy and and the Beatles and that whole TM movement back in the 60s and 70s.

[216] And so to his credit, and one thing I really am really grateful for, like he would talk to me like I was an adult from the time I was a little kid.

[217] And that was really, you know, sometimes I would prefer to talk about like the Yankees or G .I. Joe.

[218] But, I mean, those early conversations really did leave their mark.

[219] So it was an interesting upbringing.

[220] Okay, great.

[221] I was going to save this to the end because we both have daughters, but I'm going to say it right now because it's so appropriate, which is, so I talk to my kids like they're my age, like their peers.

[222] And I sometimes wonder, like, I guess I'm trying to understand the limits of their capacity.

[223] I am trying at all times to convey what a four step is in AA, you know, where it's like you're mad at Joe, why you're mad at Joe, he tries to get me fired.

[224] You know, how does that affect you?

[225] Well, it affects my financial security, this, that and the other thing, and what role do I play in that well?

[226] If I weren't late, Joe would have nothing to say to my boss.

[227] So, you know, all this.

[228] I'm trying to get them to work through their resentments.

[229] I'm trying to help them see that most of their feelings are really coming from a fear, that they would be helpful to identify.

[230] And then I'm confronted with the idea that, like, this is all going over their head.

[231] There's a waste of their time.

[232] Is this the right course of action?

[233] So how do you do it with your daughters?

[234] First of all, I don't think.

[235] it's a waste of time.

[236] I think it's great.

[237] There's some theories out there that suggest that you want to push kids, always have them reaching for a little bit more outside their comfort zone.

[238] By way of analogy, when I was on the wrestling team, I always used to wrestle in practice with the guy who was two -way classes above me. And so I often think about talking to my kids the same way, right?

[239] So I realize that, you know, when I talk about mechanisms and the prefrontal cortex, they may not really, it may not sink in, but the more I talk about it, the more they surprise me. I mean, you know, and so I do enjoy going for walks and just kind of sharing what's going on in my world.

[240] And sometimes they like it.

[241] And other times they say, this is, as my youngest daughter would say, this is bawling, daddy.

[242] Okay, so your specialization in psychology is emotion regulation, which is something that I'm deeply interested in and fascinated by.

[243] And I got to say Monica and I have many, many debates.

[244] This is a great topic for Monica and I. Because, and I'm wrong often.

[245] Let me just start by saying I'm wrong often.

[246] But in general, I have kind of a blanket view, which is the world is kind of inert.

[247] As much as it feels like it's not, it is just constant, right?

[248] So traffic is a reality.

[249] Bosses are a reality.

[250] All this stuff is a reality.

[251] And that is the variable in the equation that is unchangeable.

[252] So I'm left with the only variable in the equation I have any say over is myself.

[253] So I strive to not react to things or to be a slave to these things or get emotional all the time.

[254] And sometimes our debates are about, you know, someone can't really make you feel bad.

[255] Like you can allow someone to make you feel bad.

[256] And by the way, it has been pointed out that I'm wrong.

[257] We were watching this great documentary.

[258] I hope you watched it about Keith Reneery, the vow.

[259] And it can be taken to an extreme, right?

[260] where you never have a right to say someone's attacking you outright, which of course they are.

[261] So I think in the extreme, but just in general, I do think we have maybe more control than we think we have over how we feel and respond to things.

[262] What's kind of your blanket thought about that?

[263] Yeah, I think we have enormous control over how we react to the world.

[264] And I think step one is simply being aware of the fact that you can change the way you think to change the way.

[265] you feel.

[266] I think that's a game -changing idea for a lot of people.

[267] I mean, that's something that I talk to my kids about quite a bit, like when my daughters are having temper tantrums, particularly the older one, not that she has more temper tantrums.

[268] If she heard me say that, I'd be in big trouble.

[269] But, you know, she's at a point where I could talk to her and explain, like, you feel a certain way.

[270] What if we thought about it differently?

[271] What if we reframed it?

[272] And those kinds of reframings, I mean, that's a lot of what we do in our lab.

[273] Like, when we get really upset of things, we tend to zoom in super, super narrowly on the problem at hand, to the exclusion of everything else, right?

[274] We're just narrowed in.

[275] Oh, my God, what if?

[276] I don't know what I'm going to do.

[277] Can you believe he said that?

[278] And we could zoom out.

[279] And when we zoom out, we get more perspective, and that can often be really, really useful.

[280] Yeah, and I don't think it implicitly is a denial of feelings.

[281] Like sometimes I hear a reaction to my point of view as being like, I'm asking people to deny how they feel when in fact I think I'm more going like, go ahead and feel that.

[282] Like you're allowed to experience it and feel it.

[283] And then I think it's time to work through it mentally.

[284] I mean, what you're describing, I hope it's not wrong because it is about 20 years of what I do is towards that idea.

[285] And so I'm not taking any sides here.

[286] I just want to say, I'm just telling you how I think about this.

[287] I don't disagree with that.

[288] I disagree sometimes with him saying people can't make you feel a certain way.

[289] I think people can attempt to make – I don't think we live in pods and in vacuums.

[290] And I think if you try to, actually, that's to your detriment and that you shouldn't be taking in other people's, you know, whatever they're giving you.

[291] I mean, it doesn't mean you have to feel it all, but I don't know.

[292] I just don't think we live in vacuum.

[293] Well, this is the perfect scenario here because I can extract an agreement.

[294] both of you here.

[295] So, you know, I like to use the word harness to talk about how we can harness our reactions.

[296] And oftentimes other people can instigate certain emotional responses in us, right?

[297] Like if someone says something to me, that's the wrong thing.

[298] It's automatically going to elicit a response.

[299] And as much as I want to prevent that, I'm not going to be able to.

[300] And you probably, if you're thinking about how people work, you probably wouldn't want to make it so that, you could perfectly control your emotions because emotions are functional.

[301] Like negativity, we often hear nowadays, I want to live a life without any negativity.

[302] I would not endorse that, right?

[303] Negativity in small doses is elegantly adaptive.

[304] Like when I get a little ping of anxiety, a week before I have to give a high stakes talk, that's a good thing.

[305] That means I'm not watching football and basketball and doing, you know, no work.

[306] It means, all right, Ethan, time to get to it.

[307] So negativity can be good, but when the emotions get too big and stay for too long a period of time, that's when things get problematic.

[308] And that's where our ability to control comes into play, because we can rein in that response and we can move it around.

[309] And that is a really useful skill.

[310] I think I can give an example of what I mean.

[311] Generally, when I'm bumping up against this, when we have this argument, I guess my point is I start from a place.

[312] where you're tempted to say this person objectively wanted to hurt my feelings.

[313] And I agree with that.

[314] People do objectively try to hurt other people's feelings.

[315] But here's where I think your own personal role comes into play.

[316] If you walk by a homeless person on the street and they look up at you and they say, you're a fucking loser, it does not impact you.

[317] You do not care because you don't seek their approval.

[318] And now if someone you look up to, let's say we were interviewing someone that Monica loved, historically and they said you're a fucking loser it would be crushing now both people tried to hurt you but one has status and one doesn't you want approval from one person and not the other so for me once i recognize that it is that subjective whether or not i'm going to care and it's my own desire to get approval from people with status or people i love whatever it is that's to me where your control comes from or at least you have to acknowledge it's actually not objective Well, I think what I hear you saying is when our self is on the line, so to speak, right?

[319] Like when something is said that actually impacts us, makes us feel vulnerable, that's when we're going to experience that emotional response.

[320] Totally.

[321] So not everyone, you know, I gave a presentation to my kid's class a couple of years ago and one of the kids just said, this is boring.

[322] And I said, well, that's not nice.

[323] No more talking for you.

[324] But I didn't lose sleep over it.

[325] Now, I might lose sleep in another context, right?

[326] So whether you're on the line can make a difference in terms of whether the emotion is triggered.

[327] We're not a simple species.

[328] Like, it's hard to predict.

[329] What's going to trip you up is different from what's going to trip you up, Monica.

[330] Like, our triggers are different.

[331] But once the emotion is triggered, the tools we can use are similar.

[332] Yeah.

[333] Okay, let me go one step further.

[334] I guess what I see the solution as, and again, I'm very brainwashed by 17 years A, so factor that in.

[335] But I guess what I'm tempted to say is, if whatever thing that triggered you, if you treated that yourself, right?

[336] So if I have a set of definitions that says I'm not a loser and I personally meet them and I actually decide that I have accomplished that and I don't have a fear that I'm not a loser, I believe no one's comment could have an effect on me. But it should because it shouldn't have an effect.

[337] on you emotionally, but it tells you something about your relationship to that person.

[338] It tells you something about that person.

[339] For sure.

[340] That person might be trying to manipulate you.

[341] That person might, you know, it's important to take in what other people are saying so you can assess an entire relationship situation.

[342] I totally agree.

[343] But if I'm in a place emotionally where I'm like, well, I'm not a loser.

[344] You know, it's like the example I always uses is someone calls me short.

[345] I'm just, I'm six to, I'm not short.

[346] It doesn't trigger any fear of mine.

[347] So when you triggered, you just triggered me, Dax.

[348] Oh, well, yeah.

[349] Five seven, so thanks a lot.

[350] That makes sense.

[351] And I apologize.

[352] But I guess my point is, if someone says to me, you're very short, my first thought is, why would that person say that?

[353] What is their agenda?

[354] What is their objective?

[355] What thing are they dealing with, which in general, I think, is a good way to be thinking about these interactions.

[356] It's like all the things we say really say more about ourselves than the person we're addressing in many ways.

[357] Great example.

[358] I'm talking too much, but don't worry.

[359] I'm going to really turn it over.

[360] But we had Justin Timberlake on yesterday, and I looked at the comments.

[361] And every other comment is about how clearly in love Monica is with Justin Timberlake.

[362] Really?

[363] Yes, yes.

[364] Oh, wow.

[365] And what I gleaned from that is those people are in love with Justin Timberlake.

[366] And if they were staring at him, I would argue her face is pretty neutral to what it is in most photographs.

[367] She's definitely smiling, but I think she smiles in others.

[368] And I was just like, that is, that's just straight projection.

[369] Like, I would be in love staring at him.

[370] And so I'm pretty sure that's what I see on Monica's face.

[371] Yeah, I mean, people do project.

[372] But let's go back to, I mean, I don't think you're saying that you're incapable of being hurt, right?

[373] Not at all.

[374] I get hurt all the time.

[375] I'm super sensitive.

[376] Right?

[377] And so, you know, your triggers may be different.

[378] Like the loser comment, it seems to me like you're confident that you're not a loser.

[379] And if someone says that, you know, screw you, I'm not a loser and I know that.

[380] But let's switch gears.

[381] Like, imagine someone who you care about deeply, you know, said you were a shitty parent.

[382] That might tweak you.

[383] I mean, let's say I'm working real hard and, you know, my wife says you're not being a good father.

[384] That would really, really offend me. Like, that would hurt.

[385] So I think our triggers can be different.

[386] There are 150 things you could say that I have a fear about or that I do feel incomplete.

[387] in that would send me reeling.

[388] That's what I'm arguing that that's my work to do.

[389] So I could somehow either confront the fact that I'm not a great dad and become a great dad so that that doesn't affect me or, you know, I just think it's an internal job ultimately.

[390] I think if you had real self -esteem across the board, all these comments would have no impact.

[391] Well, I don't know.

[392] I don't know if I agree that.

[393] If you take that argument to an extreme, that would suggest that you would never, never get offended by anything.

[394] Yeah, you're kind of sociopathic.

[395] Like, you're living in your own space and nothing affects you.

[396] Like, you want to be affected by the world and then handle it.

[397] And I'm definitely not suggesting that you don't handle it after you feel the feeling.

[398] But you should be taking in feelings.

[399] And feedback from your community.

[400] I agree.

[401] We're a social animal and this is how we help each other be good animals.

[402] But what I'm saying is you can imagine.

[403] Imagine a state where you confront every one of those things that would have affected you.

[404] You're a loser.

[405] You're a bad parent.

[406] And you actually demonstrate that you no longer that thing.

[407] There is an imaginable state where you've actually done all that work.

[408] Somehow you have 80 hours in the day.

[409] And you can become this person that really is impenetrable to that because you've done the work.

[410] Sure.

[411] I mean, you can make the argument that there's an emotional ideal that is homeostatic.

[412] You just stick to a baseline.

[413] You don't go up or down.

[414] You just go about living your life.

[415] And in some ways, that's the Eastern ideal.

[416] I have yet to see a living, breathing human that conforms to that ideal.

[417] Well, I've seen it, but they have to be in complete isolation.

[418] If you're going to interact with other humans, it's almost impossible.

[419] It's hard.

[420] And so, you know, it's almost like working against the machine that ideal.

[421] We are built to experience emotion.

[422] and I'm a proponent of the idea that emotions are useful, both the good ones and the bad ones, as I was saying before.

[423] And so I wouldn't want to live a life without the ability to experience both kinds of states.

[424] Clearly, I like the good ones better.

[425] I mean, you know, most people do.

[426] But the negative ones also, I think, are vital to my ability to succeed and be effective and be a good dad.

[427] Like, I need to know that when I say something that maybe does offend you or not you, maybe Monica, like if I see the facial expression on your face that suggests I may have hurt your feelings, I need to get the feedback that, oh, I'm sorry.

[428] Like, I'm really sorry I did that.

[429] I didn't mean to.

[430] Like, I say things.

[431] You know, I offend people.

[432] I don't mean to, but I get feedback.

[433] It's negative.

[434] And then I adjust my behavior.

[435] And so emotions are signals really important.

[436] For me, I think the big challenge that.

[437] I try to look at in the lab and really in my own life is how can we make our emotions work for us, both the good and the bad ones, rather than take over, which we see happening quite a bit.

[438] Yeah, and by the way, even in my weird utopian thing, I just pitched you guys that neither of you were buying into.

[439] I definitely, I still see a well of emotions being someone shares with me, not what's broken with me, but they share with me when you do this, I feel this way, and then I feel terrible because I do not intend to make the person feel that way.

[440] And then I adjust my behavior accordingly.

[441] Yeah.

[442] So what I'm hearing from you is that you're what we would call low on rejection sensitivity.

[443] So you're less sensitive to being rejected than maybe others.

[444] But that doesn't mean you can't experience other kinds of negative emotions like anger or sadness or, you know, plug in your favorite one.

[445] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[446] We've all been there.

[447] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[448] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[449] Like the unexplainable death of a retired.

[450] fired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[451] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[452] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[453] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[454] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[455] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[456] What's up, guys, this is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[457] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[458] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[459] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[460] And I don't mean just friends.

[461] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[462] The list goes on.

[463] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[464] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[465] Okay, so your book, Chatter, the voice in our head, why it matters, and how to harness it.

[466] The voice in her head, holy smokes, Monica and I both, this is one of the foundational connections between us is that.

[467] Awesome.

[468] There is a trial going on at all times in our heads.

[469] We are horrendously introspective.

[470] I'm an obsessive think Monica would say she is too.

[471] We build cases.

[472] We lose objectivity.

[473] We're so busy.

[474] We're meant for each other, the three of us.

[475] Let me pull up the chair and join the crew.

[476] But this is what the book is about, and this is what I've spent the last 20 years studying.

[477] So if we just go back, early part of life, dad, introspect, it's the utopian ideal.

[478] Know thyself, right?

[479] Look inward.

[480] Fast forward, I get to college.

[481] I take my first psychology class, and halfway through the semester, we turn to introspection.

[482] And I'm like, you know, the equivalent of rolling up my sleeves, here we think.

[483] go, you know, let me show you how it works.

[484] And lo and behold, what I learn is that there's a lot of science on this.

[485] And a great deal of it shows that, shows the exact opposite of what I learned growing up, which is a lot of people, a lot of the time, when they introspect, when bad things are happening, they end up getting stuck.

[486] Negative thought loops, what I call chatter, rumination, worrying, catastrophizing.

[487] You know, choose your favorite description, the negative roommate in your head, the itty -bitty shitty committee, right?

[488] Like, our minds are taken over in awful ways.

[489] And so for me, this became a giant puzzle that I became fascinated by and I've been studying for past 20 years, which is why is it that in some cases, we can benefit from introspection?

[490] Like, introspection is an amazing, amazing tool.

[491] It's what allows us to problem solve, to innovate, to create.

[492] And it is the basis, I would argue, of, like, why our species is so effective.

[493] A lot of people, myself included, think that this is the key evolutionary advance that distinguishes us from other animals.

[494] Like, yeah.

[495] Yeah.

[496] So let's go through the utility first.

[497] Like, let's just, I mean, there's a couple things that probably are obvious to many people, and then maybe some other people haven't even considered.

[498] First and foremost, we think in whatever language we speak.

[499] Or you'll sometimes meet bilingual people, right?

[500] And they'll say they think in Spanish, whatever it is.

[501] But just the notion that I am thinking in English confines me to a very specific culture, which in and of itself is fascinating, right?

[502] Because culture is highly persuasive and it is a structure.

[503] And we're confined by that even inside our heads in ways, right?

[504] So could you talk about that phenomena that we think in language?

[505] So we could think in language or images.

[506] and sometimes we're thinking, like, you know, I'm regularly now fantasizing about the next beach vacation, whenever that happens and we can leave quarantine, right?

[507] So I can see myself on the beach with a pinia calada, suntan lotion.

[508] You know, I can do that.

[509] But we also spend a lot of time thinking in words, and we do, you know, think in our native language.

[510] There's some actually interesting research on thinking in a foreign language.

[511] I don't want to get too far, too much of a detour, but emotion.

[512] have less impact.

[513] When you think about an emotional experience in a foreign language, it has less resonance.

[514] Like cursing in a foreign language doesn't feel as bad as cursing in your native language.

[515] And the reason is when we're growing and developing, we're processing the world through our native tongue.

[516] So emotions, when you're first learning the curse words, like you'll learn them in your native language, they don't quite have the same zip when they're in a foreign language, which you know, is you could play with that sometimes.

[517] the next time you're upset.

[518] No, it's true.

[519] I'll say shisha all the time instead of shit, and it's just cute to everyone.

[520] Even if they know it means shit in German, yeah.

[521] Yeah, I'm not going to tell you the words I use in another language, but I have a job that could be at stake.

[522] We'll have a different conversation when you're tenured.

[523] Are you tenured?

[524] I'm tenured.

[525] I'm still not having a conversation with you.

[526] That's why you're tenured.

[527] You know what's the right decisions to make.

[528] Well, you know, here's an interesting, interesting tidbit.

[529] maybe we get to at some point.

[530] You know, social media is really interesting with respect to the inner voice because it provides us with a ginormous megaphone for what's going on in our head.

[531] Like Facebook off says, like what's on your mind?

[532] Just put it out there.

[533] And some people are obliging that request and just sharing.

[534] And I often, I tell people that I wouldn't want anyone to have a live feed into what's going on in here all the time.

[535] I'm really happy with that being a private experience that I can, to some degree, curate what comes out of my mouth.

[536] Yeah.

[537] So, yeah, editing is good.

[538] And so going back to what the inner voice does for us, I think of it as a Swiss Army knife of the mind.

[539] It does a lot of different things.

[540] One of the things it does is it does help us edit our life stories.

[541] Like we narrate our experience.

[542] We're constantly creating stories to help us understand who we are.

[543] And the inner voice helps us do it.

[544] It also helps us simulate and plan.

[545] So, you know, if I'm prepping for an interview, I can think, okay, Monica's going to say this, and then I'm going to respond this way, and then she's going to respond this way.

[546] So we often do that little conversation with ourselves, roleplay, internally in our head, right?

[547] And then at the totally other end of the spectrum, the inner voice is helping us do things as simple as, just keep things in mind like if I ask you to memorize a phone number repeat it in your head that's your inner voice 209 oh you know so so it helps us do a ton of things but it can also get us into deep trouble which is what I spend you know most of the time studying okay so really quick just so I can put a pin in the language thing I got curious since you would know this do you find that because language does vary the lexicon's different that we have words for things that other cultures don't and vice versa and it gives us I was an anthropology major.

[548] It gives us a sense of what they value.

[549] Does the language you think in potentially have an impact on your overall happiness or mental health?

[550] And specifically, we always read, you know, Sweden and Finland, these Norwegian countries, they're always highest on the UN happiness scale.

[551] And the metrics are always, you know, standard of living, all these other things.

[552] But I wonder, is anyone even considered part of it is the language that's in their head?

[553] Yeah, it's a great question.

[554] So language can shape.

[555] our emotional experiences.

[556] And in fact, we've done a lot of work showing that there's some quirky linguistic jiu -jitsu moves that you can use to harness your inner voice.

[557] But as to whether cross -cultural differences in language put people onto different emotional trajectories, I'm not sure of research that speaks to that specifically.

[558] There's certainly there's some cultures that have words for emotions that other cultures don't.

[559] And that's really fascinating, right?

[560] Because there are certain experiences that certain groups of people are having, presumably, that they have a word to describe that other cultures are not.

[561] We have a new show with Wendy Mogul, who's a family therapist, and she also does a lot of stuff in linguistics.

[562] So for that show, each episode, she presents a word in a different language that we don't have that word in English.

[563] There's a Japanese word where you're unhappy with your haircut right after you get it, you know.

[564] And it's kind of funny because we do all have, we know that emotion, but some cultures put a word to it.

[565] Monica, don't project.

[566] I don't have that emotion.

[567] You love your hair cut.

[568] But I just see that, yeah, like some cultures put words to things that others don't.

[569] And that's so fascinating.

[570] Well, we'll have to fact check this.

[571] But again, I can't remember I learned this in school or this is just apocry that also in a way.

[572] there's no word for jealousy.

[573] And that would be, if that's true, which we'll fact check.

[574] Yeah.

[575] That would be a really phenomenal idea that there would be a culture that doesn't even need a word for jealousy.

[576] Yeah, I don't know.

[577] There are definitely studies that have looked at some of these comparing different cultural groups on these specific emotions and find some inconsistencies.

[578] On the whole, I think a lot of the emotions that are common to us are.

[579] expressed linguistically in different cultures.

[580] It's funny, you're reminding me one of the first studies I did, which actually I tell the story of this study in the book because it ended up being an inner voice escapade for me with a kind of death threat.

[581] That was not, for an academic, that's not that usual.

[582] But we did a study where a lot of people had noted that in cultures around the world, different cultures use the same words to describe the experience of being rejected, which is the language of physical.

[583] pain.

[584] They describe how they feel when they're rejected as my feelings hurt.

[585] I'm in pain.

[586] And so we did a study where we looked at whether what's happening in your brain is similar when you're experiencing social rejection versus physical pain.

[587] So we brought people into the brain scanner.

[588] This was back in New York City.

[589] We recruited people who had just been dumped in a monogamous romantic relationship.

[590] Turns out in New York City, it was really easy to find those people.

[591] Yeah, sure.

[592] And we had them bring a picture of the person who dumped them.

[593] This sounds terrible, right?

[594] Like, we're not trying to make people feel awful for the sake of it.

[595] We're trying to learn something to help.

[596] On for science.

[597] I don't care what you did.

[598] Let's hear it.

[599] Okay, fine.

[600] So we show them the picture of the person who dumped them.

[601] And as they look at that person, they're supposed to think at how they felt when they said, I don't love you anymore.

[602] It hurts.

[603] It's not pleasant to look at that person.

[604] And on another part of the study, we put a little probe, metal probe on their forearm that heated up to a hot temperature.

[605] To be clear.

[606] Crystal clear.

[607] I'm going to talk slower now to give the disclaimer.

[608] This is not burning someone.

[609] This is like holding a hot cup of coffee without the protective sleeve.

[610] So it's aversive but tolerable.

[611] And we found basically overlap in physical pain, circuitry in the brain.

[612] So there's a fun little study that someone then sent me a death threat for.

[613] Yeah, that was fun.

[614] Again, it says a lot more about that person.

[615] Okay, so is that inner voice, that's frontal lobe business?

[616] Well, there are language centers in the brain, but it's also distributed.

[617] So 15 years ago, we tended to talk about the brain in terms of specific spots, whereas now we're talking in terms of patterns across the brain networks.

[618] And so there's a language network, and there's certainly a frontal component to that.

[619] Because one thing that was fascinating, and I listened to you on another podcast, about psychology.

[620] And I guess there was a tweet.

[621] I never read it, but there was some tweet that caused a bit of, uh, yes.

[622] Yeah, it went viral.

[623] And it was basically people weighing in and whether or not they have an internal monologue going.

[624] And to be honest, I was shocked anyone would have said that they don't.

[625] I would have assumed we're all imprisoned with all these thoughts.

[626] Well, you know, this is why I think thinking in terms of the inner voice isn't one thing.

[627] It does a lot of different things for us is really useful for addressing that debate.

[628] Do some people report not having like a monologue stream through their heads?

[629] Yeah, there are people who report that.

[630] They're thinking in terms of images more, you know, most of the time.

[631] However, if their brains are properly functioning, they still possess like the capacity to think in words.

[632] So the ability to repeat a number in your head or repeat a word silently, that is a basic feature of a well -working brain.

[633] That's called verbal working memory.

[634] It's part of the architecture that supports how human beings navigate the world.

[635] So we all possess that capacity.

[636] Now, whether we use language silently to do other things, like reflect on our problems and work through them, yeah, I think you do have a lot more variability there.

[637] And my sense is that that whole debate was about at that upper end of the spectrum.

[638] Some people just report not having the stream that we see depicted in the movies, you know, where like the constant commentary.

[639] Right.

[640] Okay.

[641] I probably wrongly or erroneously believe the objective would be to get rid of those voices.

[642] And I assume you're going to make a case for why they shouldn't be.

[643] I guess I can, I fantasize about a state of being where I'm just aware of my current surroundings and I'm present and I'm not writing the fucking story of my life that no one's going to read.

[644] That seems pleasurable, but is that not the desired state?

[645] I would say it's not the desired state.

[646] So there's actually, I tell a story in chatter about a neuroanatomist who had a stroke and lost her language, her linguistic facilities were wiped out essentially.

[647] And she initially describes that state as one of utter bliss for precisely the reasons that you're describing Dax, right?

[648] Like, ah, no more nagging all the time, no more overthinking.

[649] But then she goes on to describe how without those voices, she also lost her sense of who she was, identity, and her ability to do basic things like plan and simulate was also lost.

[650] And so I think that is unique proof for just how vital this voice is.

[651] And I think the goal should be not to silence it, but to harness it, right?

[652] So to figure out how to make it constructive, how to make it more supportive, more coach -like.

[653] We do studies on that.

[654] How do you motivate yourself?

[655] Come on, man. Get your act together.

[656] And so I think that's the challenge.

[657] And what's really, to me, a bit of a mind -blower is that there are tools that we have evolved to possess all around us and things we could do by ourselves, ways of talking to other people, and even ways of navigating the world around us that allow us to harness this conversation.

[658] And that's been really exciting to study.

[659] So when we want to harness it, what are we trying to downsize and what are we trying to nurture?

[660] So we're trying to reduce the chatter.

[661] And the chatter is the zooming in really narrowly on a problem and then getting stuck spinning over and over and over in ways that are ultimately dysfunctional and destructive, that get in the way of you doing your, job optimally that create friction in your relationships and chatter that can, you know, undermine your physical health, right?

[662] Yeah.

[663] We're built to experience stress.

[664] Stress becomes a bad thing when you experience stress and then you keep experiencing it over time.

[665] We are very well equipped to maintain that stress response because we just keep replaying the negativity over and over and over.

[666] And that leads to the kind of wear and tear in our body.

[667] That's not so good for longevity.

[668] And so when you talk about zooming out, what are the mechanics of that?

[669] Or what is a literal example you could give us of how one should attempt to zoom out?

[670] Sure.

[671] So there are lots of different ways you could zoom out.

[672] One way to do it is something called temporal distancing or mental time travel.

[673] And I actually use this a lot when it comes to COVID, right?

[674] I try not to focus on what's happening right now and how awful it is.

[675] And I think, all right, how am I going to feel nine months from now, 12 months from now, when I'm vaccinated?

[676] when most of the country is, and when the ship is righted and we're back on path.

[677] What that does psychologically is it highlights the fact that what we're going through right now is not permanent.

[678] It's temporary.

[679] That gives us hope.

[680] And hope is really, really good for silencing those chattery inner voices.

[681] So that's one way of broadening the perspective.

[682] I'm not thinking just narrowly about what's happening now.

[683] I'm looking at the bigger picture.

[684] You can also go back in time, right?

[685] Like, look, think back to 100 years ago.

[686] We had a terrible pandemic.

[687] But guess what?

[688] We're all alive right now sitting here.

[689] We made it through that.

[690] We endured it.

[691] We grew and we will do it again.

[692] So that's one technique.

[693] That's my personal mantra I just want to say is, and I've said it on here before, my personal mantra is, this is only temporary, this is only temporary, this is only temporary.

[694] You know, when I'm really caught in a dark blue mood, I just try to remember all the time that it's temporary.

[695] And it's powerful.

[696] that's actually one of the defining features of wisdom.

[697] So we've studied wisdom.

[698] What does it mean to be wise?

[699] Well, to be wise, there are a couple of features.

[700] One of the things you want to do is be able to recognize that the world is constantly changing.

[701] It's constantly in flux.

[702] Another thing you want to be able to do is recognize that the limits of your own knowledge, right?

[703] I don't know everything.

[704] I can't possibly know everything.

[705] It's another feature.

[706] Sure.

[707] So that's one zoom out technique.

[708] Let me tell you about another one that is fun, and I rely on it a lot.

[709] It's called distance self -talk.

[710] And it involves coaching yourself through a problem using your own name, like you're talking to someone else.

[711] Oh, wow.

[712] Silently in your head, of course.

[713] And so here's the backstory on this and how this works.

[714] We know that we are much better at advising other people on their problems than we are ourselves.

[715] I mean, have you ever had a situation where someone comes to you?

[716] They're ruminating, they're anxious.

[717] They don't know what to do.

[718] They present the situation to you.

[719] And, hey, no problem.

[720] This is what, like, have you ever had that experience?

[721] Oh, yeah.

[722] Daily, I sponsor guys, and I hear myself giving them advice that I need to follow, and I just fucking can't do it.

[723] I know, you know, I can easily tell them what would make their life easy.

[724] And yet I'm like, wow, you just can't do that for yourself.

[725] There's a name for this.

[726] It's called Solomon's Paradox.

[727] It's named after the Bible's King Solomon, who was famously adept at giving advice.

[728] Like, he's known as the wise king.

[729] But when it came to his own life, he had, like, 100 concubines, and it ultimately, like, he built them all shrines and temples, and it got very messy, and it ultimately led to his kingdom's demise, right?

[730] So this is fundamental.

[731] And so what's really cool about distant self -talk is we're using language as a tool.

[732] right?

[733] We usually use names when we talk about other people.

[734] So when you use a name to talk to yourself, it's like a psychological jujitsu move, right?

[735] It's changing your perspective really fast, automatically.

[736] And it's, all right, Ethan, here's what we need to do.

[737] And so that's another tool with a caveat that I don't endorse doing that out loud and in public.

[738] Suddenly, try to coach yourself through a problem using your name.

[739] We find that that actually also gives people, objectivity, makes it easier to think through problems in an adaptive way.

[740] Now, in the book, you profile some top athletes and some Fortune 500 executives, and I'm curious what tools or techniques or strategies or methodologies you found that they employ that we could all benefit from.

[741] Well, so Distance Self -Talks one that I talk about Malawi Usovsi and LeBron using.

[742] Another fun example comes from Rafael Nadal.

[743] and one of the greatest tennis players of all time, who, you know, I think it was in his autobiography, he wrote something to the effect of, the hardest thing I do in a tennis match is I try to control the voices in my head, which to me is astounding, right?

[744] So here you have a guy who is competing against the best athletes in the world on the greatest stages in the world.

[745] He's not worried about how fit they are, how good their backhand is, his endurance, he's worried about the conversation he's having with himself on the court.

[746] And so what is he, what does he do to do this?

[747] He does something that often elicits, you know, raised eyebrows and ridicule.

[748] So he engages in these like elaborate rituals.

[749] So if you watch Nadal, you'll see he always walks onto the court carrying a tennis racket in one hand.

[750] And then when he gets to his bench, he turns to the crowd, he unzips his jacket as he's bouncing on both feet.

[751] Then he carefully takes out his two water bottles and positions them on a diagonal.

[752] One, two, one, two.

[753] Then when he's, you know, playing, he twirls his hair a few times, looks like he's picking his butt before every serve.

[754] He's engaging in a ritual.

[755] And what he's essentially doing, rituals are highly structured activities, right?

[756] And he's got control.

[757] So he's controlling himself and his environment to compensate for the lack of control that he feels in his head.

[758] So it turns out a lot of people do this, and science shows that it can be useful when we're experiencing chatter, try to order our surroundings or engage in a ritual to help us in those circumstances.

[759] And I'll just say that when I was writing this book, I did something along these lines, which was very typical for me because I'm not the most organized, neat person.

[760] It's a constant issue in my relationship.

[761] There you'd close all over the floor, piles of books in my office.

[762] But when I was struggling with a paragraph or a chapter, I'd go to the kitchen and I wash all the pots and pans and I'd neatly put them away.

[763] And that was something inside me telling me to, hey, let's try to fix what's happening in here by turning to the world around us.

[764] And so that's another fun tool that people use.

[765] Yeah, so we've interviewed a couple of really successful athletes.

[766] And I want to say Tom Brady was telling us about his kind of ritual before a game for all those.

[767] reasons like let's control all the things we can up till the moment it all starts and yet we were also interviewing a formula one driver daniel ricardo and he said i'm against those because what inevitably happens is a part of your ritual can't be performed and now you have a built -in excuse to not do your job the way you should you know and so it's just kind of interesting i guess i would imagine you'd agree with this is like knowing your own predilections is helpful too like are you the type of person that that's going to be super productive for, or are you the type of person that's going to build an excuse off that?

[768] Well, so I'm a, I'm glad you brought this up.

[769] I mean, I'm a big proponent in the idea that there are no magic pills and no magic tools.

[770] And so, you know, what I advocate is, is a toolbox approach to managing the mind where, let's say there are 20 or so science -based tools.

[771] They're likely more.

[772] I think the challenge is to figure out what are the combinations of tools that work best for you as a unique individual facing unique stresses in your life.

[773] Figuring out what those combinations or blends of tools are, that's, I think, the really important challenge that we all face.

[774] And could you give people, like, if possible, could you approach a definition so we know when you're having constructive self -talk and when you're veering into rumination?

[775] Like, how do people delineate the difference between that?

[776] there is no very sensitive Apple Watch detectable red line that says, okay, you know, I'm in the chatter zone.

[777] It'd be cool if they were.

[778] But, you know, I think subjectively, when you find that your thoughts are getting in the way of you thinking and feeling and behaving optimally, like that's a good cue to suggest I may be experiencing unproductive chatter.

[779] So in other words, if I'm I'm trying to read a book and I read five pages and I realize, oh man, I just read five pages.

[780] I don't remember anything I just read because I was thinking about this problem, right?

[781] That's not a good thing when your job is to read for a living.

[782] Or if I'm supposed to be performing well in a high -stake situation, a big talk, thousands of people, and I can't get the words out of my mouth because I'm so worried about what everyone's thinking, like that's a cue.

[783] that your mind's taking over in an unhealthy way.

[784] So I think it's often apparent when the unproductive chatter strikes.

[785] You know, I'm going to just admit to one thing, which is I had these kind of hard, fast thoughts about how one should evaluate why they're triggered by things, evaluate what things are having an impact on them emotionally, and then found myself in a couple unique situations over quarantine.

[786] One, I relapsed on opiates, so I was fucked up on opiates, and then I was detoxing from them.

[787] And I recognized in that state, oh, man, you know, you're kind of underestimating the impact of your biochemistry and how that changes.

[788] And these things that, the tools that I was able to access normally were just so elusive to me. I also took an arthritis medicine at one point, didn't read any of the side effects, came to find out depression was one of them.

[789] And then in that state, finally going like, oh, I'm not enjoying, interacting with my children like I always have.

[790] This is curious.

[791] Your chemistry, man, it's a big part of this, isn't it?

[792] I try to sometimes look at people and go, oh man, they're probably, you know, chemically feeling how I did when it's, you can almost not climb out of that.

[793] There's no question that it's all, it's all integrated and connected, right?

[794] So the brain is influencing our biochemistry, which in turn is having implications for our emotions.

[795] What we're learning is that, I mean, by thinking you can change how your brain responds, which in turn can have an implication on that neurochemistry.

[796] Research on placebos here is I think super fascinating, right?

[797] Like this idea that I can give you a sugar pill for depression or anxiety.

[798] And for not all cases, but many cases, like if you believe that, you know, me that this pill is going to make you feel better, it has an effect, like an adaptive effect.

[799] Like, this to me is another mindblower.

[800] What that means to me is that we possess the capacity to change the way we feel in quite astounding ways.

[801] But we often have to like backdoor into that capacity.

[802] It's not fully under our control.

[803] There are like safeguards that prevent us from unleashing that capacity, self -doubt, maybe insecurity, but if a trusted person says, Dax, you're going to do okay, you will be better, take this pill, then that effect comes to fruition.

[804] That speaks, I think, the work that science has to do to figure out why we don't have more control over ourselves.

[805] Yeah, I totally agree with you on that.

[806] And we've had several different scientists that have pointed out, the placebo is real.

[807] Like, I think we all have this notion of what placebo is.

[808] Oh, they give you a fake pill and you, but they've all pointed out, no, no, the result is real.

[809] It doesn't really matter what the cause is.

[810] The result is measurable and real.

[811] So I mean, like, so let's think about, like, why would it make sense for us to have these limitations on our ability to feel the way we want all the time?

[812] Because that's what we're really talking about, right?

[813] Like if we have the ability to rethink how we feel, no more depression, no more anxiety, no more anger, right?

[814] Yeah.

[815] That could be problematic if you think about it because we know that people are motivated to approach pleasure and avoid pain.

[816] The reason negative emotions are useful is because they feel really bad.

[817] We pay attention to them because we don't want to feel that way.

[818] So there are people who are born just by way of example with a genetic condition that makes and impossible for them to experience physical pain.

[819] Like impossible.

[820] Yeah, yeah.

[821] And you know what happens to them?

[822] Yeah, they get really hurt and die.

[823] Exactly.

[824] Yeah.

[825] So that's what we're talking about.

[826] So it's kind of a catch -22 here, right?

[827] We possess the ability to feel less bad.

[828] But if you're in charge of creating something, I don't know that you want to give that organism, that entity, the ability to just modulate how they feel without, any safeguards at all.

[829] That could be really dangerous.

[830] Herein lies the great conundrum of the simulation.

[831] You can't give us too much of what we want.

[832] Mm -hmm.

[833] Or it doesn't work.

[834] You got to keep wanting for more a little bit.

[835] I would imagine the mastery of this self -talk does have the potential to be damaging.

[836] I guess, like, as soon as I saw that you had done top athletes, I went immediately to the Tiger Woods documentary, which we both just, watched.

[837] I don't know if you had a chance to see that or not.

[838] I haven't yet.

[839] It's incredible.

[840] I think it would interest you so much because his conditioning since two, three years old, it was his father creating racket around him while he played this game and perfecting this ability to block out stimuli and to compartmentalize and to really master the voice in the head.

[841] Because as you say, similar to tennis, I don't think there's a mental game.

[842] You're playing yourself.

[843] Tiger's playing himself.

[844] You know, there has not been an example of someone who better mastered that internal voice than Tiger.

[845] And then the personal struggles he had to me fit perfectly within that mastery, which is he can compartmentalize this part of his life.

[846] And he can silence this voice in his head.

[847] And he can proceed, you know, so.

[848] Well, go ahead.

[849] You got me chomping at the bit here.

[850] Yeah, please.

[851] That's what I was hoping to make.

[852] you're going to make you horny for this, yeah.

[853] We're going to need another episode.

[854] So this speaks to something that I think is also fundamental about human nature.

[855] We often think about people in terms of traits.

[856] So good at self -talk across the board, neurotic across the board, conscientious.

[857] I have a different perspective, and there's a different tradition, which is that who ER is very contextual.

[858] I can be incredibly controlled in work contexts, but a total animal, not true, but hypothetically, in other contexts with my friends or with my family.

[859] It's an if -then profile that characterizes who we are.

[860] If I'm in one context, then I behave this way.

[861] Then I'm in control.

[862] If I'm in another context, then I behave very differently, right?

[863] And the triggers are very different.

[864] So when I hear that example of Tiger, I don't see that as his ability to master self -talk as getting him into trouble.

[865] I view it instead as he really mastered his ability to control himself on the golf course.

[866] But when it came to other things in his life, he was in much less control for a variety of reasons, likely.

[867] So it's much more contextual.

[868] We all have our triggers.

[869] I would argue that the amount of self -control, was so overwhelming and he needed such a reprieve from that when not doing that thing, which is what he did most of the time.

[870] It's like, yeah, it could be, you know, it's possible.

[871] I could think of other, you know, who knows, I got to watch the video.

[872] Oh, it's really good.

[873] It's tremendous.

[874] I think it's more, my armchair theory is it's, his life was so public.

[875] And I think when your life is so public and, I mean, his to an extreme, You crave a private life because everything, you know, you need that and you're not getting it.

[876] So I think that's more what it's about as opposed to, and still control.

[877] It's controlling the amount of privacy you have or anonymity or whatever.

[878] But it's not so much about his self -talk, I think.

[879] Well, you know, this is like, I feel like we're in the lab now and we're workshopping an idea and coming up with some experiments we can do because when I hear you both talking about this, which I agree, fascinating.

[880] I hear, I think, he also started mastering this self -talk with his dad early on in life before he was famous and well -known, right?

[881] And then once he got to the next level, a whole different world opened up to him.

[882] A world that now he's got the spotlight on him, as you're suggesting, a world where he's probably more self -conscious, a world where he has handlers and enablers.

[883] And these are a whole new set of challenges that he probably wasn't as adept at managing and certainly didn't have the same practice as he did growing up with his dad, you know, going to the driving range, however often he did.

[884] So a very different slice of life comes into play.

[885] And here's my projection, because this is me, which is I have demonstrated great self -control and will in many.

[886] facets of my life, and that gave me an arrogance in these other harder to manage areas of my life.

[887] So, you know, he was also an addict.

[888] He was on a bazillion different pills.

[889] He clearly was struggling with that.

[890] And I could relate to thinking, no, no, I have the skill set to do the impossible.

[891] So I'll be the person that can handle this situation in the same way I handle this other situation in a way most people can't.

[892] So that's my projection of what's going on, you know?

[893] Yeah.

[894] Well, like one of my pet peeves is when someone might say to me, they'll remain nameless, you have no self -control.

[895] No, that's not true.

[896] I'm able to control myself.

[897] I can delay gratification for a very long time to do my work.

[898] And I can, you know, yes, it's true.

[899] Maybe late at night, I get a little peckish and want some snacks and don't inhibit.

[900] But it's contextual.

[901] So it's trigger if then.

[902] And I think having the understanding that we can be really good at controlling ourselves in some contexts, but not good in others, that's an important observation.

[903] And it really does then allow us to start thinking about how we can get better in that very specific context.

[904] It makes it more manageable because not now.

[905] I have to shift everything about me. It's, okay, how do I master this task?

[906] Yes, it is compartmentalized.

[907] It is okay, this is an area I can focus on as opposed to this broad, I'm X, Y, or Z, which I think has always been the great disillusion of alcoholics, which is, oh, they're people with no willpower.

[908] Well, no, they're running Fortune 500 companies.

[909] That's too simple.

[910] It's in that situation, yes.

[911] And, you know, this speaks to a bigger issue of human nature, which is we tend to categorize.

[912] We like categorizing because categorizing makes the world simple.

[913] and we like simplicity.

[914] So black, white, good, bad, controlled, not.

[915] On the one hand, we have a tendency to categorize and simplify the world.

[916] On the other hand, we ourselves all know when we think about who we are that there's a lot of texture to who we are.

[917] Don't reduce us to categories.

[918] So how do you make those different views align?

[919] I think that's a challenge that we really need to figure out to improve the way we work as a society.

[920] You know, we have to start with understanding how we're built.

[921] And then once we understand how we're built, then it becomes possible to start thinking about how to navigate the world more effectively.

[922] But we need to take, I'm certainly, you know, like mindfulness, I talk about this a little bit in the book too, like, you know, look, I told you, I've been mantra since five, right?

[923] So I know how to meditate.

[924] I totally value the mindfulness and meditation, but I do react to the message that we always need to be in the moment, which a lot of people talk about, right?

[925] Like, human beings weren't designed to always live in the moment.

[926] We evolved to be able to live in the past and the future too, and that's really good.

[927] That's a useful quality.

[928] So I don't think we should be telling people always be in the moment.

[929] I think be in the moment, if you're in the moment, but also just figure out how to be in the past and the future without getting sucked into the chatter vortex that ruins people's lives.

[930] And so, you know, we've got to work within the contours of how we're built.

[931] Yes, absolutely.

[932] In your book, Chatter, is a great step in that direction.

[933] So what a wonderful way to try to start understanding both the usefulness, the potential pathological nature of it, and how to navigate it and how to harness it.

[934] So people should definitely read chatter.

[935] So Dr. Ethan Cross, pride of Ann Arbor.

[936] So great to talk to you.

[937] I hope you appreciated my U of M colors.

[938] And I hope we talk to you again soon.

[939] I think we could cover a lot of different topics.

[940] Yeah, it was great fun.

[941] Truly a fun conversation.

[942] Thanks for having me. Okay.

[943] Thank you.

[944] Be well.

[945] Take care.

[946] Bye.

[947] Now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[948] Hello.

[949] We're not together.

[950] I'm in Georgia right now.

[951] I'm in a storage closet.

[952] AKA your cubby, your fact check cubby.

[953] Cubby's an adorable word, right?

[954] It is.

[955] Like, they tell the kindergartners, like, you get a cubby, put your stuff in your cubby.

[956] And they don't really have stuff.

[957] No, not too much.

[958] I couldn't do little for stuff.

[959] Not a lot of work to bring.

[960] Ding, ding, ding.

[961] I'm at my childhood desk.

[962] Really childhood.

[963] Like before, like not high school desk.

[964] Like, this was a five -year -old's desk.

[965] Yeah.

[966] And it's so funny because I remember, I'll take a picture of it.

[967] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[968] It has a bookshelf attached.

[969] It's tall.

[970] And when I was little, I was climbing it to get a book because I was so smart.

[971] Studious.

[972] And I lost my footing and I like slid down and I got a big scar on my belly.

[973] Oh, my goodness.

[974] That's there to this day?

[975] No, it's gone.

[976] Oh, okay.

[977] So a scratch.

[978] Would we call that a scratch then if it didn't stick around?

[979] Perhaps.

[980] It was a bad one though.

[981] Yeah.

[982] It was a wound.

[983] Anyway, I'm looking at this now and I, the idea that I could have gotten hurt on this.

[984] Like, it's so, is that I was.

[985] It was so small that I fell and slid.

[986] That must have been just one, two inches.

[987] Oh, speaking of which, Dingles, I posted it.

[988] This most adorable piece of artwork came our way.

[989] Oh, my God.

[990] My Lord.

[991] So cute.

[992] Oh, my God.

[993] What a picture of you.

[994] It was me as a tiny mouse.

[995] That's who I picture climbing the bookshelf.

[996] That's what made me think of it.

[997] That's what she looked like.

[998] Yeah.

[999] That's what she looked like.

[1000] A little whiskers.

[1001] And it was a long fall for that.

[1002] little mouse.

[1003] Yeah, yeah.

[1004] But luckily, mice are light, so they don't, they don't land with a lot of thunder.

[1005] They don't scar easily, but they do get scratches.

[1006] They get really, that's the incredible thing about mice is that you can really cut them up, really slice them.

[1007] And then they'll heal without any scarring, no keloy, no. Oh my gosh.

[1008] Yeah, and I do want to update people because we did tell everyone about it, so lest they be concerned and we can alleviate their fears.

[1009] Off opiates since Saturday.

[1010] So going on four days off.

[1011] No, no issue.

[1012] So if anyone who was concerned, we went through it or passed it and all is good.

[1013] And the body is, you know, the body's not great.

[1014] Body's not great.

[1015] Got some bad news Tuesday.

[1016] Yeah, well, tell us about that.

[1017] And also, I'm proud of you.

[1018] Thank you.

[1019] So when they got in there in the shoulder to put in the new hardware, my stellar doctor, Dr. Delamisharo, he thought he saw some infection.

[1020] Yeah.

[1021] Thought maybe it wasn't.

[1022] But let's be safe, he said.

[1023] So I got a poured in my arm.

[1024] Very sexy.

[1025] It's a dood.

[1026] It's a new dood.

[1027] It's a new look.

[1028] It's kind of good to reinvent yourself every now and then.

[1029] That's true.

[1030] That's true.

[1031] Yeah, I definitely have a dingle doodad coming out of my arm.

[1032] And so, and I have to put antibiotics directly into it.

[1033] And then what they do is they send away the piece of whatever body material to a lab.

[1034] And they see if anything grows.

[1035] So for the first five days, nothing grew, which means no infection.

[1036] I was starting to get really excited.

[1037] And then at my checkup, it would have been the 10 -day marker.

[1038] And I had been told, if nothing grows in 10 days, you can get rid of the sport.

[1039] So I went there with the sole goal of telling him, either you pull this port out or I'm pulling it out.

[1040] I went with the ultimatum.

[1041] Oh, boy.

[1042] Oh, my God.

[1043] Okay.

[1044] You know how I like to operate.

[1045] And so about two seconds into me winding up for this speech I've already rehearsed in my head, he goes, stop, stop.

[1046] The culture grew this weekend.

[1047] You have an infection.

[1048] And I was like, oh, my God.

[1049] And then I said, okay, so fuck, well, another week on this thing?

[1050] He goes, no, no, minimally another six weeks with the doohickey.

[1051] And we're going to Hawaii.

[1052] That's okay.

[1053] It's not because I can't swim with the doohickey.

[1054] I'm not allowed to be submerged in water with the doohickey.

[1055] And I was really looking forward to snorkeling with the girls and splashing around, the lazy river, splash, splash.

[1056] Oh, lazy.

[1057] Yeah.

[1058] Well, maybe you can wait in and just like, you know, keep your arm out.

[1059] Yeah, it's just a pretty big.

[1060] wrist to take with an open hole into your veins if some some kids got streptus bacteria or fleshing you yeah figure out a way to like really duct tape around it so no water can get in there that's what I'm thinking why don't we ask your your um this doc not this doctor but your doctor but that doctor yeah that doctor Dr. Dell Dr. D why don't we ask him what we can do maybe he has some sort of great contraption a workaround a proprietary contraption.

[1061] Oh my gosh.

[1062] I'm going to force him to invent a medical device and he's going to become a billionaire.

[1063] See, this is working out.

[1064] He's so lucky to be my surgeon.

[1065] Before we get into Ethan, we have to take a second.

[1066] We just have to.

[1067] We must talk about the royals.

[1068] Oh, yeah.

[1069] I'm going to need you to film me in.

[1070] So I guess you're referring to the fact that they got Markle, Megan Markle and Prince Harry.

[1071] Harry.

[1072] Yep.

[1073] They got interviewed by Oprah.

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] There's so many takeaways.

[1076] One is Oprah, she still got it.

[1077] She does.

[1078] Even though, like, some of the things she asked, I was like, or like some of the tone.

[1079] I was like, don't say that.

[1080] Oh, real?

[1081] But I loved it.

[1082] Oh, like, what was one of the things she said where you're like, oh, careful?

[1083] Like, she pokes.

[1084] She pokes.

[1085] She just, she's.

[1086] We need to poke more, huh?

[1087] No. I guess it's tempting when you see someone as good as her to think like that that's what we should be doing.

[1088] Yeah, well, Wendy, of course, like, Wendy emailed me after and was like, after listening to that, I think I should listen more like you know, I fucked everyone up taking their cues from Oprah.

[1089] How long was the interview?

[1090] Two hours.

[1091] Wow.

[1092] And does Oprah still interview people or just like when something big like this happened, she'll do it.

[1093] And then where does she drop it?

[1094] It was on CBS.

[1095] Oh.

[1096] I think she got like $8 or $9 million.

[1097] No shit.

[1098] Yeah.

[1099] I think so, yeah.

[1100] Suck a dick.

[1101] Good for her.

[1102] I know.

[1103] Good for her.

[1104] I will tell you in my very egocentric way that I roll through life, I knew that was happening.

[1105] And of course, I so wanted to talk to them, as did you.

[1106] Yeah.

[1107] And I did fantasize about being like, God, could we ever be that those people, that like when people decide to talk that were the trusted place.

[1108] That crossed my mind.

[1109] Yeah.

[1110] What a flattering place to be.

[1111] Yeah, what a, what a stationed occupy.

[1112] That's so cool.

[1113] Okay, so the takeaways.

[1114] Hit me with the takeaways.

[1115] Okay, so the takeaways.

[1116] So you're going to feel so validated.

[1117] Oh, okay.

[1118] I like that.

[1119] It's pulling back the curtain on the royal family in a way that's like, whoa, they are fucked up.

[1120] Wow.

[1121] And, and of course, if you watch the crown, which if you haven't watched the crown by now, you're not my friend, then you know that.

[1122] Like you see it and you see it in this.

[1123] it's one of the great dysfunctional families of all time yeah yes but when you hear this outsider coming in and talking about it and like she was suicidal and was asking for help and they they won't wow just like diana who was like dying of an eating disorder knowing that and Harry said that he said I could see history repeating itself no shit oh right because that's his mom his mom yeah what was the most salacious accusation well Well, the big one that people are talking about is someone in the royal family had conversations with Harry while Megan was pregnant with Archie, their boy, worried about the skin color of the baby.

[1124] Okay.

[1125] Oh, boy.

[1126] And no one, they didn't say who it was, but of course, there's speculation.

[1127] Who do people think it is that pervert?

[1128] Or that guy's out of the picture.

[1129] I mean, no, he's not really.

[1130] I mean, he kind of is.

[1131] But.

[1132] I'm talking about the Epstein cohort.

[1133] Yeah, Andrew.

[1134] Yeah, Prince Andrew.

[1135] He's still in the mix?

[1136] Like, I'm pretty sure he still gets paid.

[1137] Oh.

[1138] And they aren't, they've cut Harry and Megan off completely.

[1139] They haven't, they're, they're.

[1140] Oh, they don't get any money.

[1141] No money, no security.

[1142] Oh, wow.

[1143] Like, really bad.

[1144] Really, really bad.

[1145] Wow.

[1146] What the fuck are they going to do for a living?

[1147] So he said, so, you know, they left, they went to Canada.

[1148] And, and they were really trying to make it like as good for the.

[1149] the family as possible is like we're going to still keep our duties we're just going to take one position down you know trying hard to make them look not crazy yeah and then they were just like cutting them off no protection know this and luckily diana had saved money for the kids so he and he said I would never have been able to do this without the money my mom left me and now they have like Netflix stuff and shit.

[1150] Yeah, deals, yeah.

[1151] Can you imagine anything more distracting than if you walked into Starbucks and fucking Prince Henry was behind the counter?

[1152] Harry, Prince Harry was behind the counter.

[1153] Oh, oh, man. But the protection thing is really bad because like, you know, your whole stance about the kids, you know, it's like they don't choose it.

[1154] He was born into this.

[1155] He has no choice.

[1156] And to take away protection from that person is very scary.

[1157] And, like, because there's a lot of, like, death threats and a lot of stuff about her race.

[1158] And just, oh, yeah, it just, like, got really, really, really bad.

[1159] It's really worth, especially for you, because you're just going to feel so good about hating the Royals the whole time.

[1160] I felt guilty for liking them.

[1161] Well, don't do that.

[1162] Well, I just felt like, man, I know.

[1163] And just to be clear, I don't like them in a way.

[1164] way that's like I admire them.

[1165] I just find them incredibly fascinating and I'm interested in their stories.

[1166] Here's my question.

[1167] If you had the choice, would you end this thing?

[1168] I think up until this I probably would have said no. Right.

[1169] Because you want the show to continue.

[1170] Yeah.

[1171] Let it let them be.

[1172] But now no. It's hurting people.

[1173] It's a problem.

[1174] Well, and again, my point is always like, nobody's benefiting.

[1175] They're not.

[1176] They're miserable.

[1177] Even the perpetrators of this.

[1178] stuff.

[1179] They're fucking miserable and they're taking it out on everyone else.

[1180] I don't know who's winning.

[1181] Exactly.

[1182] And that's what Harry said.

[1183] Other than tabloids.

[1184] Well, yeah.

[1185] And then that's a part of it.

[1186] I didn't realize, like, they're, they're in cahoots.

[1187] Like, they're feeding off of each other.

[1188] The tabloids need the royals and the royals need the tabloids.

[1189] So they're, like, they host dinners at the palace for these tabloids.

[1190] They're bedfellows.

[1191] Yes.

[1192] And Harry said, they're all trapped.

[1193] My dad's trapped.

[1194] My brother's trapped.

[1195] He's giving them some grace.

[1196] They're not out of it so they can't see.

[1197] We always talk about being in the water.

[1198] Can you imagine being in that water?

[1199] What a fucking weird, warped view of the world you have.

[1200] I know.

[1201] But you'd think after what Charles went through with like Camilla and Diana and all that, like you'd think he'd have more compassion for what was going on.

[1202] But he's trapped.

[1203] Yeah.

[1204] Well, Well, think, well, first of all, he's got to consider people like you who are enjoying the story so much.

[1205] So he doesn't want to break your heart.

[1206] But then secondly, I imagine they see it the same way people who went to World War II thought.

[1207] Like, well, I'm going to go kill myself because I believe in this country.

[1208] Like they have some ideal that feels like it can justify all other things, murdering people, whatever it takes.

[1209] And so, yeah, I'm sure being a royal is a far stronger force than being an American.

[1210] Oh, for sure.

[1211] For sure.

[1212] And you're literally like, oh, am I going to destroy this thing that has existed for 500 years on my watch?

[1213] I'm going to be the dingus who mishandles this thing?

[1214] I know.

[1215] But it made me feel so...

[1216] Horny for Harry.

[1217] Well, yeah.

[1218] Yeah.

[1219] Is he sexy?

[1220] Yeah, I think so.

[1221] Yeah.

[1222] I remember seeing him naked in those photos and he had a great body.

[1223] Oh, like from a long time ago?

[1224] He was in Vegas with some bros and he, like, was mooning the camera and he has top off and and he fucking looked great.

[1225] Yeah, I mean, he's obviously always been a bit rebellious.

[1226] Yeah.

[1227] I felt respect.

[1228] I respect these two people so much because that must have been so fucking hard to do, to walk away.

[1229] Talk about getting out of the ultimate abusive relationship.

[1230] Exactly.

[1231] Exactly.

[1232] Yeah, because you don't even have a living.

[1233] You don't have, and again, what was he going to get a job somewhere?

[1234] He can't get a job anywhere.

[1235] I know.

[1236] Maybe he's a movie star or a podcast.

[1237] host, but those are his two options, or a primatologist.

[1238] The monkeys won't know who he is.

[1239] Well, okay, so here was the one criticism I heard, and I didn't watch it, so I don't know.

[1240] But I was told that Megan's stuff felt a little too scripted and rehearsed and not really, like, as much from the heart as much as maybe, like, prepared monologues about the situation.

[1241] Oh.

[1242] Did you detect that at all?

[1243] No. I didn't.

[1244] I didn't.

[1245] I'm sure they were very anxious about this, obviously.

[1246] Maybe she had pre -planned in her head like we all do before we do anything.

[1247] But I did not feel like it was disingenuine at all.

[1248] Okay.

[1249] I am going to, I'm going to explore, like I'm going to put myself in the exact same position.

[1250] I aren't going to attempt to, right?

[1251] So let us assume, because patriotism, it's in you more than you ever.

[1252] I think it's in a lot of people more than they recognize, right?

[1253] So I have even find myself doing this.

[1254] It's like, I don't mind someone from another country being somewhat critical of us, but there does get to a point where I get defensive.

[1255] I'm like, let us imagine that a English dude or a Russian dude came in and wooed one of the Obama daughters.

[1256] And there became this big circus.

[1257] And then the Obama daughter and the Russian went back to Russia.

[1258] And then from Russia, they explained why this whole system we have is oppressive and, abusive and malarkey, I could see being more critical of a Russian, an outsider, who came in and facilitated the end of this thing that's from my country.

[1259] I can see a little in -group, out -group thing where it might be different if you're British watching her talk about this than it is for us.

[1260] For sure.

[1261] And also, I think the British tabloids exploit that.

[1262] Like, they say, like, Megan stole Harry, Megan did this.

[1263] She's Yokono.

[1264] Meg's it.

[1265] Yeah, they've made her that.

[1266] And so - Oh, Megzit?

[1267] That's a good one, yeah.

[1268] Unfortunately, that's it.

[1269] No, I mean, I get it.

[1270] I get a people who live there like, mm -hmm.

[1271] But - Yeah, hey, American, thanks for stopping by destroying the monarchy.

[1272] Yeah, but, you know, in your example that you gave.

[1273] The Obama's.

[1274] Yeah, like, if Sasha and the Russian were on Russian TV.

[1275] Vladimir and Sasha.

[1276] And they were talking about.

[1277] Oh, weird, really quick.

[1278] Sasha is a Russian name.

[1279] This is working out perfectly.

[1280] That's why they fell in love.

[1281] Oh, my God.

[1282] And if they were talking about some, like, real, real deep -seated racism that they experienced in the White House, let's say.

[1283] Uh -huh.

[1284] Well, it'd have to be reverse racism probably in this case, because it's the obolus.

[1285] And reverse racism doesn't exist.

[1286] But yes.

[1287] Right.

[1288] Yeah.

[1289] Yeah.

[1290] No, I, but no, they could, she could have experienced.

[1291] Oh, you're right.

[1292] Because we're calling out, yeah.

[1293] Because we love Obama, so I'm starting from a place of like, I got to pick someone I love.

[1294] I'm a little wonky on the details.

[1295] On the analogy, yeah.

[1296] It's ever -changing.

[1297] I'm losing the analogy a bit.

[1298] But anyway, point is, if they called out something like that, we might be like, hey, that's what our foundation is.

[1299] And oh, my gosh.

[1300] But also, they'd be doing the right thing.

[1301] They'd absolutely be doing the right thing by calling it out and trying to expose this really bad, bad system.

[1302] But my friend who's British, who that was his takeaway about Megan, I guess I was trying to consider why that would be his takeaway because he's a very thoughtful person and he is not pro -monarchy.

[1303] So I was thinking, why did he read it differently than you?

[1304] And I guess that's what I'm trying to come to as a justification.

[1305] It's like, well, ultimately she is an outsider who's being very critical of the thing he was born into.

[1306] So I can acknowledge that.

[1307] Also, maybe, I mean, she wasn't like bawling.

[1308] Right.

[1309] Maybe for him, he's like, that's not how.

[1310] I would act if I, you know, so a lot of people do that.

[1311] I'll think like, oh, I'd be crying or I'd be doing this if I was talking about it.

[1312] And, you know, everyone just responds differently, especially talking to Oprah.

[1313] Yeah.

[1314] That makes me think immediately of Adam Grant interviewed Malcolm recently.

[1315] And they, it's real, I'd not heard any of them.

[1316] Have you heard these?

[1317] No, I know they like debate, right?

[1318] Yeah, they fight.

[1319] It's the greatest.

[1320] I mean, they love each other, but like, they don't agree on anything.

[1321] And Adam is so challenging to him.

[1322] It's really fun to listen to it.

[1323] And, you know, they're just, they were such different personality types.

[1324] It's really fun.

[1325] But one of the things was Malcolm had cited this psychological study that had happened in Germany where they were trying to disprove that your face is so linked to your heart, which was this kind of consensus in psychology.

[1326] And they did this experiment where they'd lead these people down this long, dark hallway.

[1327] And they would put them into a room and then they'd ask them to read some Kafka or something depressing.

[1328] And then they'd open the door.

[1329] And when they came out, there was no hallway.

[1330] and someone from their childhood was sitting in a chair in front of them.

[1331] And they filmed their face.

[1332] And then they asked them what happened.

[1333] And they would say, like, oh, I was so shocked.

[1334] And I was, you know, every single thing they would say, they experienced.

[1335] And really none of it was on their face.

[1336] And so Malcolm was like, in my opinion, that study kind of disproves this notion we have that people's faces are so telling.

[1337] And then Adam countered and said, well, it might more prove that people are really, shitty at recounting what they were thinking or feeling.

[1338] Oh, yeah.

[1339] They might have not have the language or adjectives to say what they were really feeling.

[1340] Like they just went to, oh, I was shocked.

[1341] Anyways, fascinating debate.

[1342] Oh, that's interesting.

[1343] Yeah.

[1344] And I think what they do is they, anytime one of them has a book, the other helps them promote it, but they help them promote it by shitting on it kind of.

[1345] It's really fun.

[1346] So then I listen to Adam be a guest on Malcolm's show or he was promoting his book.

[1347] And it's so funny because had Adam never said it, he said, I want to say that I've observed a pattern where you write a book with a theory, and then a few years later, you write a book with the opposite theory.

[1348] He's like, Blink is saying that people are really good at thin slicing, and they can make really good decisions, and then you write, the most recent one, I forget the name of it, that I love, which is people don't know what anyone's talking about, and confusion is the norm.

[1349] And then he says, then you write outliers, which is about there's no real advantage, and it's all about thing.

[1350] And then you write David and Glythe and say, oh, being in power is the disadvantage.

[1351] He's like, what's your message?

[1352] And Malcolm's just like, yeah, I don't care.

[1353] Like, you want me to have a seamless trajectory of my thoughts and opinions.

[1354] And I don't.

[1355] He said, I take great joy in contradicting myself.

[1356] And I was like, oh, this is so fascinating.

[1357] It was tasty.

[1358] Yeah, it was really tasty.

[1359] Let's talk about Ethan a little bit.

[1360] So this isn't a fact.

[1361] It was just something I wanted to bring up.

[1362] He talks about Raphael Nadal doing rituals.

[1363] You know, we've talked a lot about rituals on here.

[1364] And I think after hearing all these different opinions, I just worry that rituals make you OCD.

[1365] Like, I don't know if they can.

[1366] I don't know if that can work backwards like that.

[1367] Well, they're the exact same thing.

[1368] They're both an attempt to get control over something uncontrollable, right?

[1369] Yeah, but one, you know, OCD, you don't have control of.

[1370] Like, you have to listen to the song.

[1371] You know, yours is you have to listen to a song twice if you hear it once.

[1372] Van Allen Jump, yeah.

[1373] Yeah, I don't even want to say it.

[1374] I know.

[1375] I'd hate even saying it.

[1376] Okay, we don't have to say.

[1377] I'm not going to say.

[1378] The whole thing's shrouded in bad luck.

[1379] I'm so sorry.

[1380] But, you know, that's like something you can't control, whereas with these athletes, they're creating them.

[1381] You know, they're creating the compulsions.

[1382] They're like creating that I tap this five times and then I do this.

[1383] And it's a way to get control, but it's invented.

[1384] But then I wonder at some point, does.

[1385] Does it get out of control?

[1386] Okay, so I have a little bit different of opinion.

[1387] I don't think they engineer them.

[1388] I think they are things they linked.

[1389] So one day they wore green socks and they finished first.

[1390] So then they make the connection, oh, it's green socks.

[1391] I don't think they set out to have these.

[1392] I think they take notice of something they did just prior to having a great performance.

[1393] And then they clock it.

[1394] So I would say the chicken or the egg is that they're OCD already.

[1395] Okay.

[1396] That might be true.

[1397] And then I think for like Danny Ricardo, who doesn't believe in those, with a really, really defendable explanation.

[1398] Oh, I prefer it.

[1399] Yeah.

[1400] Yeah.

[1401] Why are you going to let these little things inform how you do?

[1402] Because what if one of those goes wrong?

[1403] Exactly.

[1404] That's genius.

[1405] But I think it's easy for him to have that opinion because he's just not OCD.

[1406] Yeah, that might be true.

[1407] Okay.

[1408] All right.

[1409] Glad we talked it out.

[1410] Okay.

[1411] The name of the disorder where you can't feel pain.

[1412] Uh -huh.

[1413] Uh -huh.

[1414] It's just called congenital insensitivity to pain or...

[1415] Oh, okay.

[1416] Yeah, I know.

[1417] I was going to say, it doesn't sound Latin enough for me to take it seriously.

[1418] I don't love it either.

[1419] Yeah.

[1420] Congenital insensitivity to pain and anhydrosis, C -I -P -A, is a rare hereditary disease that causes affected individuals to be unable to feel pain and unable to sweat.

[1421] Oh, anhydrosis is unable to sweat.

[1422] That, I hear hydro in there.

[1423] That makes sense.

[1424] Okay.

[1425] Oh, here's a...

[1426] another.

[1427] Congenital and sensitivity to pain, also known as congenital.

[1428] Oh, man. Oh, anal.

[1429] Oh, analgesia.

[1430] Here are the options.

[1431] Oh, analgesia.

[1432] Here are the options.

[1433] Analgesia, analgesia, analgesia, analgesia.

[1434] Oh, my gosh.

[1435] I bet a lot of proctologists treat people with analgesia.

[1436] Is that when your anus is full of ghee?

[1437] I think it's like, Prageria, the disease where people age quickly.

[1438] I think it's, you have a geyser's anus too early.

[1439] I think I have analgesier.

[1440] Is that what Benjamin Button had?

[1441] No, he had.

[1442] He had reverse analgesia.

[1443] Oh, my God.

[1444] Yeah.

[1445] His asshole looked way younger than it was.

[1446] It looked like a baby's asshole.

[1447] Yeah, but when he was a baby, he had regular analgesia.

[1448] He had straight up analgesia.

[1449] Yeah, but then it started turning into reverse.

[1450] Wow.

[1451] We talk a little bit about the tiger doc in this.

[1452] We've talked about it on here, so we don't need to get super into it again.

[1453] I just...

[1454] Tiger Woods, dog, yeah.

[1455] Yeah, Tiger Woods.

[1456] And there's been an update, of course, since you got in that car accident.

[1457] And I've just been thinking, like, I mean, people are probably going to get mad at me for, like, sympathizing with him.

[1458] But, you know, this doc comes out.

[1459] He's alive.

[1460] he's feeling that the world is learning about him, hearing stuff about him, a portrayal of him that he's not a part of.

[1461] And I just wonder if that, like, it must drive you crazy.

[1462] And he already is not the most stable.

[1463] Although, is his superpower of disassociating and compartmentalizing being employed right now?

[1464] And he's actually able to cruise through it more than any other person would normally be able to.

[1465] Perhaps I just want to.

[1466] He was on his way to play golf, right?

[1467] Like, he's in public playing golf.

[1468] I know, but I think that compartmentalization stops at a certain point.

[1469] Unless you're truly, truly diagnosably, ding, ding, ding, I made that out.

[1470] Sociopathic.

[1471] Uh -huh.

[1472] Then I think that compartmentalization runs out, or at least it's getting funneled into other areas and you don't know it.

[1473] I guess what I mean is, like, his ability to ignore his surroundings.

[1474] and the reality around him, i .e. tons of noise, his dad doing the keys.

[1475] Like, he can get in a tunnel clearly and ignore the world.

[1476] And maybe that's what he's been doing to deal with all this.

[1477] I think the fact that he had like 30 girlfriends and could somehow do all that.

[1478] That's a lot.

[1479] 30 people?

[1480] That's a lot.

[1481] That is a lot.

[1482] A lot of folks.

[1483] That's really all for Ethan.

[1484] Oh, also Laura wanted me to share.

[1485] She, too, got a mantra when she was like five or six.

[1486] For her birthday.

[1487] For her birthday, which is really funny.

[1488] So Laura grew up in Iowa in the Maharishi community.

[1489] She went to a Maharishi school.

[1490] And it's so weird to me that Laura grew up like that.

[1491] Right.

[1492] When I think about her growing up and we're all hanging out and I'm like, you seem, I mean, not normal or abnormal, but just like, there's no trace of it.

[1493] Exactly.

[1494] Like, I'm more aware of like, oh, you went to USC.

[1495] That seems in keeping.

[1496] Yeah, but not Maharishi school.

[1497] Yeah.

[1498] Or they meditated at school and yeah.

[1499] Not getting fucked on your sixth birthday with a mantra.

[1500] I'd be resentful.

[1501] That'd be in my therapy.

[1502] Write it down.

[1503] Write it down for your therapy.

[1504] I was suggesting off Mike that you find your way over to Athens and do a little booty pumping.

[1505] Oh, that's true.

[1506] The good old days.

[1507] I was hoping you would dust off your booty bumper.

[1508] I was wondering, actually, if I could look through some pictures to see if there were any pictures of those parties.

[1509] Oh, yeah.

[1510] I would love to see those.

[1511] Yeah, give it a good...

[1512] I'll give it a scour.

[1513] Go through it with a fine -tooth comb.

[1514] Okay.

[1515] Okay.

[1516] All right.

[1517] I love you.

[1518] I love you.

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