Leslie Odom Jr.

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dack Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Modman.

[3] Hi.

[4] How you doing?

[5] Great.

[6] How are you doing?

[7] You look great in all green.

[8] Monica's in all green.

[9] Isn't green Bill Gates' favorite color, or did I make that up?

[10] You must be right, because they say that green is genius's favorite color.

[11] My favorite color is really blue, but I'll often lie and say it's green because I know that about geniuses.

[12] Yeah, sure.

[13] It's my second favorite.

[14] After blue?

[15] Yeah.

[16] It's probably my second after.

[17] purple oh my gosh purple not a popular favorite color that's why i like it yeah that's that holds well today we have an outstandingly talented performer leslie odum junior leslie odom jr is a tony award winning and grammy award winning actor and singer he has performed on broadway and in television and film he has released three jazz albums now most importantly let's just get to it hamilton which is currently streaming on the disney plus app it's incredible if you were unable to to see this musical.

[18] I don't like musicals, and this is one of two musicals I absolutely love.

[19] It's so good.

[20] And Leslie is so tremendous in it playing Aaron Burr.

[21] So if you weren't able to go see it live, I do urge everyone to check it out on Disney Plus.

[22] He also was in Harriet.

[23] He was in Smash, Murder on the Orient Express.

[24] And you can see Leslie currently on Central Park, the greatest cartoon on television, for which she just got nominated for an Emmy.

[25] So congratulations, Leslie.

[26] His new album is entitled Mr. Just MR.

[27] That's all you need.

[28] So check out his new album.

[29] Please enjoy Leslie Odom, Jr. Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[30] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[31] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[32] He's an armchair expert.

[33] Tack, check, check, check, check, check, check.

[34] Check, check, check, check, check, check.

[35] Get your check, cash your check.

[36] Put it in the bank.

[37] Save some money for you, honey.

[38] Check that cash check.

[39] All our singers, you always start off singing.

[40] Well, I want Leslie's approval, obvious.

[41] Obby.

[42] You got it.

[43] All right, let me just start you off with a compliment.

[44] You ready?

[45] So I told my wife, I got to go a little early today.

[46] I don't normally do it this early.

[47] And she said, who are you interviewing?

[48] I said, Leslie Odom, Jr. And she said, he isn't not sexy.

[49] I'm thinking That's the roundabout That roundabout compliment That is coming from the side It's like a diagonal You know what I mean?

[50] Yeah, you're not not Well I said hey Well I just learned about him And I saw his wife So yeah If you guys want to be lifestylers I think we're all in I think just based visually only We're up for it We're down I have to say I've known your wife a long time and I was thinking about just super excited about coming here to talk to you in this way but thinking about my relationship with Kristen she was the first person that I know you know what this is like she was the first person that I knew that I could see on a billboard right right right right because you guys are roughly the same age right right and when you're coming up like when somebody when somebody blows when somebody starts to go like that is a thing you know it's just a thing you remember and she was the first she was the first person under it.

[51] And we didn't, you know, we weren't like tight, but we knew each other.

[52] And we, we had worked together.

[53] And I remember she had that lifetime movie.

[54] That was the thing that, you know, she played when she had the custody of her siblings or whatever.

[55] And we were working together.

[56] And then, I don't know, what is it?

[57] Like, year or two later, she's on a billboard.

[58] And then, like, it feels like six months a year later, she's Veronica Mars.

[59] And it was like, it's a big thing.

[60] The first person that you know the blues up.

[61] It's wind in your sales.

[62] you're like, oh, that's just a normal human.

[63] I know this human.

[64] So, wow, maybe I can do this, right?

[65] It's that, it's that.

[66] And it's also, like, somewhat like invasion of the body snatches or something.

[67] It's like, somebody gets snatched.

[68] They get, like, they get plucked from the group.

[69] And then they're, like, away.

[70] They're, like, gone.

[71] Yeah.

[72] So after she's Veronica Mars, we kind of don't reconnect for, like, seven, eight years.

[73] Like, she's really gone, you know?

[74] Yes.

[75] Through no fault of her, you know, that's not her about her.

[76] It's just like she's fucking busy.

[77] and she's very, very famous.

[78] But yeah, it's really a thing.

[79] She was the first.

[80] She said you had a top pony of dreds when she was 19, and she said you were killing it.

[81] She said it was working in all the ways.

[82] That's right.

[83] I did.

[84] That was in my dreadlock phase.

[85] I loved my dreads, man. You know, this is, I would not have had them now because it's clearly labeled cultural appropriation, but in high school I had them.

[86] in 11th grade and I got to say my favorite hairdo because you're done you wake up you're done there it is that's what it's going to look like you might throw it in a ponytail but other than that there's nothing to think about I dug it it worked for me until it didn't anymore and then I remember shaving it off and how free that felt too like you know how liberating that was to like be bald yes yes so I got in big trouble I got in trouble at school and my mom said I've got to punish you what can't I punish you with and I said well I think if you tell me I can't I can't go on road trips, I'll probably move out and get an apartment.

[87] If you tell me X, Y, and Z. And she goes, okay, so that's it.

[88] That's the list.

[89] And I said, yeah, that's the list.

[90] And she said, okay, get rid of those dreadlocks.

[91] And I was like, oh, shit, I didn't think you'd be that cruel to tell me to cut my hair off as a punishment.

[92] But she was so cool that I had to respect it.

[93] So she cut it all off.

[94] Yeah.

[95] And I remember dipping my head in water and going like, oh, my God, I haven't felt my scalp in a year.

[96] Right.

[97] Yeah.

[98] I might grow them back just to cut them off again.

[99] Just that felt good.

[100] Yeah, that was, it felt good.

[101] Talk about, you know, you have a little girl, right?

[102] You have a three -year -old.

[103] Yeah.

[104] And you know how you're kind of always trying to teach them, like, forward thinking, you know, delayed gratification?

[105] Like, this is something you're supposed to work on.

[106] And that would be the ultimate stepping, delayed gratification.

[107] If you spent three years doing something for a three -minute sensation.

[108] There are people that do that, though, right?

[109] Like, the people that grow those flowers that only bloom once every, whatever you know there are people that that do that that oh yeah in their life their life is about that foreplay you know just like yeah and i was just listening to uh when nicolette found out i was coming on your show she was super excited her her favorite episode of all the shows she's listened to is the one you did i forget the woman's name but the one you did with that brilliant relationship expert oh esther perrall yeah yeah she's She's the Jedi of relationships, sexuality, eroticism.

[110] Yeah, I loved what she said.

[111] And I really related to it because in a lot of ways, when she equated eroticism with aliveness, right?

[112] Yes, yes.

[113] A zest for life.

[114] Right.

[115] It's the same sensation that I get, like, when this thing that I do, when it feels right, when it feels the best, it feels like there's an eroticism, there's seduction.

[116] and there's a chase.

[117] It's, yeah, it's exciting in that way.

[118] Let's drill into it a little bit.

[119] For me, too, and this isn't a great characteristic, but I need a plausible threat of annihilation to enjoy myself.

[120] So my hobbies are like motorcycles, off -road racing, and then comedy, which is like you step out there, and it's like, man, it can go either way on any night, and there's something about the stakes that, the heightenedness of it, right, that wakes me up and makes me very present.

[121] Is that like what happens with you?

[122] 100 % makes me very present and, you know, I have been annihilated.

[123] Like, I'm sure you have.

[124] There have been those performances, those moments that did not go well.

[125] And so I never take it for granted.

[126] I just finished a movie last week.

[127] And over Zoom?

[128] No. It's shooting in Russia?

[129] It's such a crazy story.

[130] But we shot this whole movie, entire movie at the top of the year, January, February, you know, before everything went down.

[131] in New Orleans, Regina King's directorial debut, beautiful script about this true story.

[132] When Cassius Clay fought the first heavyweight championship bout, nobody expected him to win that.

[133] There was a white dude.

[134] He was a black dude.

[135] Oh.

[136] People think he was white because he was kind of the white people's champ as well.

[137] I think I was thinking of like Sunny Liston or something or...

[138] That's who it is.

[139] Oh, okay.

[140] Sunny Liston.

[141] Oh, my God.

[142] So Sonny listed is, oh my God.

[143] Bro.

[144] Some layer of racism just got exposed to me, but I guess I think, I just remember he did knock out some great white hope, right?

[145] And then that kind of shut people up.

[146] Okay, so, yeah.

[147] But Sonny was black.

[148] And so anyway, when Cassius has this fight, nobody thinks that he's going to win.

[149] So there's no victory party planned in Miami in 1964.

[150] And so he spends the evening hanging out with his pals in a CD motel room, you know, and his pals just happened to be Malcolm X, Sam Cook, and Jim Brown.

[151] Oh, my God.

[152] And we know that it happened because the FBI was following Malcolm.

[153] So there are notes, you know, Malcolm X goes into a seedy hotel room with, they called Sam Cook, like, black soul singer or something, like, didn't even use his name.

[154] You know what I mean?

[155] Sam Cook, be Sam Cook.

[156] But anyway, we shot this whole movie and knew it had a wonderful experience, but we had a scene that happens at the Fountain Blue.

[157] and they couldn't kind of replicate it in New Orleans.

[158] So they were like, well, we'll shoot that scene in L .A. So like a week after we finish in New Orleans, we'll shoot that in L .A. And then we'll be done.

[159] And then COVID happens.

[160] And so we've been waiting for four months to have two days of shooting on this movie.

[161] I was bringing it up because, like, literally when they said that to rap, and I felt that tension leave my stomach, I was like, I've been tense since I got this job.

[162] Like, somewhere in my body, I've been holding tension.

[163] for all of these months.

[164] Wait, can we go back to one thing, Jim Brown?

[165] Did you get to meet him for this movie?

[166] We didn't.

[167] He's the only one of the fellas that's still alive, but no, we didn't, we didn't meet him.

[168] But I felt like, you know, Aldous.

[169] Aldous Hodge plays Jim Brown and I, you know, so I feel like I met him through Aldus.

[170] But, no, we didn't get to meet him.

[171] Because you sang at the Super Bowl in 2018, and I want to say, was that Minneapolis?

[172] Yeah, that's right.

[173] Okay, so I was there, and then Jim Brown was there, and I got to meet him, and I read this amazing book, conversations with Jim Brown.

[174] And I went up to him and I said, man, what a fucking honor.

[175] The way he did it.

[176] I mean, he should be on the Mount Rushmore.

[177] Just the way he told the line, the way he helped other people, the way he spoke out, the resolve, the, you know, the strength.

[178] What a beast he was.

[179] I mean, just an incredible guy.

[180] Exceptional.

[181] Exceptional man. And Cassius, you know, when we meet Cassius in this movie, you know, he's a kid.

[182] He's the little brother of all those guys.

[183] You know what I mean.

[184] But what a lion he turned out to be.

[185] and a force for change and good, and a man, a king.

[186] You know what I mean?

[187] Cassius walked this earth.

[188] Are you playing Cassius in this?

[189] God, no. I play Sam.

[190] Oh, awesome.

[191] And do you sing a Sam Cooke's song?

[192] Oh, what song?

[193] I sing a bunch of the songs that we re -created.

[194] No, no, because Jody Klein owns all those rights.

[195] Jody Cline's dad was Sam Cooke's last manager.

[196] And so through a turn of events, Jody Cline's dad owns all Sam's music.

[197] Jody's one of the producers.

[198] And so, yeah, we sing all the, all the hits, actually.

[199] All the best sing -cooked stuff.

[200] Dude, what was that like?

[201] Terrifying.

[202] Okay.

[203] Yes.

[204] I mean, terrifying because I remember after Hamilton, I was at a party.

[205] And Lee, I don't know if he'll remember even, but Lee, Lee Daniels, you know, I saw him at a party.

[206] Lee looked at me and said, do you want to play Sammy Davis Jr. for HBO with me?

[207] And I said, no, sir, I don't.

[208] Like, you know, in that moment because it was only like, God, I love Sammy Davis Jr. And I love Marvin.

[209] I love these cats.

[210] You know, these guys have learned so much.

[211] But because of Hamilton, I got to finally be the best version of myself.

[212] Yeah, well, I would compare it right to like Jim Carrey's big breakthrough.

[213] I think he was, he was doing stand up for maybe 15 years and he was doing impressions.

[214] And at some point he was like, I'm not going to become my own thing if I keep doing this.

[215] That's what it was.

[216] It was like, at this moment, I could be a whack Sammy Davis Jr. Or I could be an amazing Leslie Odom Jr. I'm choosing that, you know.

[217] Yes.

[218] But when Regina comes to you with this, you know, with this amazing script and, you know, and it wasn't just a straight ahead biopic, this one night of Miami, you know, it's about this night with these guys.

[219] And like, and the conversation that Kemp has them having in this room is the conversation that we're having in the streets.

[220] Essentially, you know, it's about, you know, does capital.

[221] work?

[222] Can you put a black face on capitalism and say that that's progress?

[223] Malcolm is about divesting.

[224] He's like, it doesn't matter how much money you have, Sam, like your people are still being oppressed, and you're a part of that system.

[225] And Sam is, of course, like, I'm a black -owned business.

[226] I put money in black people's pockets.

[227] You are a ward of the state.

[228] You know, like, yeah, yeah.

[229] And so, yeah, the conversation that they're having in the room, it was too good to pass up, but it was terrifying also.

[230] In the room when it happened.

[231] You know, even Martin, right, you know, We saw at the beginning of this whole uprising in the streets and the pandemic and stuff, you know, but especially with the uprising, you know, you hear a certain, a certain section of society pining and longing for Martin Luther King.

[232] That's the way you protest, you know, that.

[233] You do it like that.

[234] Nonviolent protest is the way, right?

[235] And on a level that sounds good, but then you have to remember, well, they killed Martin, too.

[236] Yeah, they followed him.

[237] They recorded everything he did.

[238] Okay, so it's not like we can go to the nursing home where Martin is at 93 or however old he'd be and talk to him.

[239] You know, how did you win?

[240] How did it happen?

[241] The brother's dead.

[242] You know, they murdered Martin too.

[243] And not for nothing.

[244] The last brother we saw that was trying nonviolent protest was Colin Kaepernick.

[245] That's what it looks like.

[246] That's what nonviolent protest looks like.

[247] And we have, you know, the person in the highest office of the land, get the son of a bitch is off the field.

[248] So that's what you do when it's nonviolent.

[249] So you got to take your pick, you know?

[250] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[251] Which you want is for you to be able to see us coming.

[252] Bottom line is, I hate to say this, but if you don't listen at the peaceful protest, you know, Kaepernak, if he's doing that, and he has the entire attention of the country on him.

[253] And if that doesn't get the conversation going in the right direction, you got to pursue another.

[254] What do people have left?

[255] Yeah, and that, I mean, that's the language of young people, you know.

[256] So I wasn't out in the streets burning things down.

[257] But I understand where that comes from.

[258] And we have distant history, and we have not so distant histories to show the way this country has treated nonviolent protesters as well.

[259] Yes.

[260] So this is the moment, you know.

[261] We've got to really deal with this once and for all.

[262] Yeah.

[263] Now, let me ask you a provocative question.

[264] Was part of the Sammy Davis knowing you're like, no. So definitely you want to be your own voice, which makes total sense.

[265] But also, if I'm you and I compare Sam Cook to Sammy, and by the way, I say this with great compassion because Malcolm Gladwell has this awesome podcast revisionist history and he does a whole episode on Sammy Davis and it's called like the weight of the token or something like that.

[266] There you go.

[267] It's about being the first person through the door and what the first person has to endure.

[268] And I mean, it all culminates with the most chilling roast by all of his friends, right?

[269] On NBC, prime time and they're dropping the end bomb and they're talking about lynching them.

[270] And I mean, these are his friends.

[271] That's right.

[272] And you just get the weight of what the token is to be the token person in the room.

[273] And I just, if I'm you, I don't want to play the token.

[274] I want to play the guy who said, fuck you.

[275] I want to play cashes.

[276] I want to play.

[277] You know what I'm saying?

[278] Was any of that in the mix?

[279] That's a great question and super provocative.

[280] A cancel worthy question.

[281] Go.

[282] No. I'll say, I have.

[283] had to take responsibility.

[284] So here, you know, confession from me, you know, I remember when I came to L .A., you know, this is, you know, in the, I was going to say the 90s, but it wasn't the 90s, but it was with the 90s sensibility because that's when I came up watching TV, right?

[285] So I came to L .A. to make TV.

[286] And I was a practical kid.

[287] And so I had only ever seen tokens.

[288] Right, right, right, right.

[289] Hollywood was really functioning in that way at that time.

[290] This is pre -Shonda Rhymes and Issa Ray and Lena Waith and all the Donald Glover.

[291] This is before all these brilliant people.

[292] So, you know, Hollywood really was functioning in that way.

[293] And yet you could still do it with integrity.

[294] I came not to tap dance, you know, not to make a fool of myself or, you know, bring shame to my family or my people.

[295] Nothing like that.

[296] But I was kind of, I knew that I was going to be on some poster and be the only black guy on that poster.

[297] Guaranteed, yeah.

[298] Unless they reboot Samford and son, yeah.

[299] That's right.

[300] Like, I was going to be on some ABC show and be the black guy, the friend, right?

[301] Yeah.

[302] You know, I only came to L .A. to work my way back to New York because I was like, what's the quickest way to become this Broadway thing that I, that's where my heart is?

[303] You know, that's what you see when you watch the Disney Plus thing.

[304] I mean, that is what I was sort of born to do.

[305] But I also knew, like, I can't get those parts until I'm famous.

[306] And so, like, let me go to L .A. and get famous that I can get those parts.

[307] Yeah.

[308] So I came here sort of.

[309] signing up for that, like signing up to be the black guy on the poster, to be the token.

[310] Now having lived it, you know, I know firsthand the pain of that.

[311] I was the black guy on Smash, you know, on that NBC show that it was the same system as it's always been.

[312] And I remember there was a writer in Vulture.

[313] So they were doing a recap of the show.

[314] And, you know, Smash like coined the term hate watching.

[315] Everybody was only watching that show to hate on it.

[316] right, to tweet about it and to talk about how ridiculous it was.

[317] And so there was a really funny recap that she would do every week and just skewer the show, just, you know, and she named me token.

[318] Oh, wow.

[319] She named me token.

[320] How'd that feel?

[321] How'd that feel?

[322] Oh, I'll tell you how it felt.

[323] It was painful.

[324] I had to take responsibility for it because on some level, that is what I signed up for all those years ago.

[325] So it was 10 years.

[326] You feel me?

[327] It's like what I came to L .A. on some level accepting or seeking found its way to me or I found my way to it.

[328] I'll just add, you're not naive.

[329] So on some level, yes, I agree with you.

[330] But on another level, no, dude, you're not the fucking architect of the system.

[331] So there's really no responsibility for you to take on.

[332] You're not the architect.

[333] Until you have a moment to change it.

[334] Yes, yes, yes.

[335] When you've got the leverage and you don't, then that's a whole other thing to wrestle.

[336] with that's what we're talking about you know that's what we're talking with all these systems bro like that's what we had to reckon with with me too that's what we have to reckon with me too's the same way it's like you know what i'm fucking waiting for is the guy that's gone through this to go to a fucking couch sit down with a fucking psychiatrist i'm i'm cursing more than any guess you never have no i love that no pull back the layers of rape culture and toxic masculinity and like this is what i've been looking at yo bill cosby when he came up, there were ads for for Roofies in the back of the magazines he was reading.

[337] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[338] Oh, my goodness.

[339] But in the backs of the magazines you were reading, they would have ads for the things you could put in a woman's drink.

[340] Or Spanish fly.

[341] I remember when I was a kid.

[342] That's what I'm talking.

[343] Yes.

[344] Spanish fly was always, and that's code.

[345] Yeah, like you're going to make some girl horny with this pill.

[346] It is at some point, the same is true with racism.

[347] Like at some point, you have.

[348] to commit to getting well.

[349] You have to admit that you're sick, that you are, that you are ill, and you have to commit to getting well.

[350] You have to do the work and go, this is the water we've been swimming in.

[351] God, we're, we're sick.

[352] Can I add one thing?

[353] This thing is set up to not allow for that.

[354] And I'll tell you why I think so, is the side that's leading the charge and God bless them, I'm so glad they are.

[355] Some faction of that side is more interested in retribution per se than gross.

[356] So the stakes are very fucking high.

[357] right so for the guy to come out and say you know what i am a misogynist i grew up in a culture where the worst thing you could be as a boy was a girl you go to school if you were a fucking girl you were exiled okay so over 18 years of hearing the worst thing in the world you could be as a girl yeah guess what you feel superior to girls and that blows and that is how we were indoctrinated yes but if i'm going to admit that and say let me now work on that you can't also take away my entire life because if the stakes are your my life vanishes then guess what I'm not going to probably own up to that and I'll say the same thing is with racism like the notion that there's racist or not racist you're a Nazi or you're fucking uh I don't even know who the most liberal white person is but no no no no I'm a fucking three okay out of 10 right best that's maybe the best I could have hoped to be on the racist scale is a three out of 10 from how I grew up in this system.

[358] So, but does that make any sense to you?

[359] Like, there's got to be.

[360] I love what you're saying.

[361] I love what you're saying.

[362] But I, and I don't agree.

[363] Like, you know, there's no danger of you losing your life using losing your in any way.

[364] Like, if you really want to talk about it.

[365] Like, maybe you're talking about like, oh, my grandkids will have a little less than I do.

[366] Nobody's coming to take your shit.

[367] Like, if you're a white guy, you're a white guy.

[368] I was married to Joy Brian on TV and she said, it's always white boy day.

[369] What are you talking about?

[370] Get out of here.

[371] Like, no. Nobody's coming to take your money.

[372] Nobody's coming to take your opportunities.

[373] Like, you're good until you die.

[374] Like, if you're here on this planet, if you're here now, if anything you're talking about, you know, if you decide to fight for more equity and justice and equality for people that don't look like you, yeah, the world might look a little different for your grandkids, meaning they might have to, I'm not talking about you now, but they might have to actually compete.

[375] compete they might have to actually be competent instead of just being handed shit because they're white.

[376] Like, you know, that's the fucking price you take.

[377] But here's the good news.

[378] You'll leave them a shitload of money.

[379] You're going to leave them a lot more than my parents left me. You're going to leave them the house and the wealth you've accumulated.

[380] You know, black people are so far behind because, you know, there's been a fucking hand at our forehead to accumulate property.

[381] do like blatantly excluded policy in writing excluded for sure but if you're a white person and you're here fighting for justice it is not going to affect your personal life while you're here you're fighting for your kids and your i guess i'm just saying i don't know how but i've eeked out this little existence where i can say that i can say i'm a three and i know i know times i've been a three right because i'm just i'm unaware now i can say i'm a three and for some reason that won't have much fallout.

[382] But I got to imagine, like, if Tom Hanks comes out and says, like, I think I'm a four racist, sure.

[383] I don't know if he's fearful that will have a huge impact on whether he works again or not.

[384] But I see what you're saying.

[385] But no, it won't affect it.

[386] Not if there's a follow up of I'm a four and I'm working to be a zero.

[387] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[388] That's the sentence.

[389] There's no fallout.

[390] Yeah.

[391] There's no fallout.

[392] Like, yeah, if you're a nine and you're like, and I'm staying.

[393] And that's where cancel culture.

[394] I'm trying to get to 10 before I die.

[395] By the way, you should be canceled if that's your mentality.

[396] That's what I'm talking about.

[397] I'm talking about the man who's accused of like treating women poorly or, you know, doing these things privately and being like, oh, my God.

[398] And dealing with that.

[399] Here you get to, you've created a platform for yourself.

[400] Thank God.

[401] I'm so, and I'm curious to see, like, if you feel like it's made you a better person, all these hours of conversations to people.

[402] But, you know, if you are.

[403] willing to work on it.

[404] There's no such, if you're willing to have conversation and by the way, it requires friendships, right, where you trust the person.

[405] So Joy Bryant has, like, defeated me in, like, four epic racial debates.

[406] And one of them being, I'll give you an example.

[407] Tell me. I just fucking hated Chris Brown.

[408] A, I'm in love with Rihanna.

[409] So that's part of it, right?

[410] We all are.

[411] Come on.

[412] And then, and then, you know, my mom was beat by a husband.

[413] I witnessed that.

[414] So I have my own particular distaste for that.

[415] And so I was, you know, going on about fucking Chris Brown and what a piece of shitty is and how I'd love to fight him and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[416] And Joey's like, you know, do you feel that way about this actor?

[417] And she names a white actor who's been found guilty of spousal abuse.

[418] And then she names another one and another one.

[419] And all of a sudden I go, oh my God, you're right.

[420] I mean, that's objectively the exact same thing.

[421] And yet I am very able.

[422] to label Chris Brown a monster or a bad guy or evil and most certainly a part of it is he's black that has this could be the only explanation can I give you one tiny on your defense and I I'm on joy side I want to say because like nobody's going to cancel me but I'm going to give you a tiny bit for your defense the next time you guys get into the in the fight it was like the only difference was God Rihanna's so tired of talking about this and I love her too like God I love that woman you know I love what she's built.

[423] But I'll say this and then I'll put it down.

[424] I related to the Me Too thing too.

[425] The only thing that was different was when we saw that picture.

[426] That's what I was, funny enough, that's what I was hanging the entire argument.

[427] After she exposed me for feeling differently, I'm like, I saw the pictures, dude.

[428] And it was gnarly, you know, she had been attacked.

[429] And I was like, when we heard about it, what we all pictured was like, ah, you know, what is it?

[430] Right.

[431] And to get off them for a second, like to go to the Me Too movement, it was like without calling names, you know, all of us, when you, when we hear about these guys going down, you're like, ah, come on, what do you say?

[432] Like, he said you had a nice top on or whatever.

[433] And they're like, oh, you gave out sex toys for Christmas?

[434] Oh, shit.

[435] Okay.

[436] Oh, my bad.

[437] Like, I, wait, wait, you jerked off in a plant?

[438] Wait, what the what?

[439] Like, so we, it was so much worse.

[440] Teller.

[441] Because we're conditioned to protect.

[442] People we love.

[443] Well, white men.

[444] Well, and black folks in the black community, they protected R. Kelly too long.

[445] They predicted it.

[446] I think it's a parental thing.

[447] My armchair theory on it is like, we all have parents that are flawed and we love them.

[448] And we get practiced at making excuses for these people we love.

[449] And then so now we love Bill Cosby, and he's kind of our dad too.

[450] And for a while, we're pretty good at like, we've been down this road.

[451] You know, my dad does have a temper and da, da, da, da, da, da.

[452] I think we're pretty conditioned to forgive people we're, we're.

[453] love for atrocious behavior because of our parents.

[454] But we love Chris Brown.

[455] Prior, yeah.

[456] Yes, yes.

[457] And so with the white guys doing the exact same thing, my point is we're a little more conditioned to be like, that's probably a little more gray than it is with the black eye.

[458] And I will say.

[459] Benefit of the doubt.

[460] You somehow extend benefit of the doubt.

[461] And I think part of it is the pictures, which ties into the whole system in general, which is media.

[462] The media is more likely to be like, this black guy's bad these white guys we're not going to show pictures of like that you know so it's all still part of this whole system where this is bad this is maybe not so bad it's true because she pointed out i think that there was a picture of like charlie sheen's thing there was a picture of his lady and i had seen it sure and yet it wasn't equal you know i have to admit it was in my mind it wasn't equal and that's why you're a three that's exactly why i'm a three Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[463] We've all been there.

[464] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[465] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[466] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[467] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[468] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[469] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[470] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[471] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[472] What's up, guys, it's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[473] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[474] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[475] And I don't mean just friends.

[476] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[477] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[478] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[479] You know, raising this girl, I was struck to, when, when hearing some of those stories, Louis's story or Charlie Rose's story or who's the other one, the brilliant brother, the comedian.

[480] Yeah, yeah, Aziz.

[481] Netflix, right?

[482] Hearing those stories.

[483] And now some of those stories were about physical violence, right?

[484] Were about someone overpowered you.

[485] So we're not talking about that.

[486] And that is something that men have to deal with man to man. Like you got to deal with, like, what has brought you to the place where you are overpowering another human being and an important.

[487] imposing your will on them, right?

[488] That's colonialism.

[489] That's some evil, wicked shit.

[490] Yeah, yeah.

[491] But some of those situations were just that, you know, we have to have these conversations with our young women, with our girls, because some of them were literally, you did not feel in your body enough.

[492] You did not feel enough agency in your body to get up off a couch and walk out a door.

[493] Like the only thing that stopped you from the psychological harm that was inflicted upon you was your willingness, your ability to stand up and walk out a door.

[494] And that is true of anybody, you know, because the power dynamics sometimes they're physical, right?

[495] Like we're saying, you know, the police departments, they are the most violent arm of white supremacy, but there's what happens in education and what happens in banks and what happens in real estate.

[496] There's lots of ways that the system is set up.

[497] So the same is true of, you know, the way we raise our young women.

[498] You walk out the door, you know, there's a long history of you won't be believed.

[499] The police won't take it seriously.

[500] If they do, they're going to give you basically a gyneological exam at a police station.

[501] You don't want that.

[502] This person's probably going to end your career.

[503] The physical disparity, the sexual dimorphism, my wife will point out, she's like, you know, I get in an elevator all the time, and the person in the elevator is literally two times my size.

[504] Imagine you got in an elevator, and there was a guy that was seven foot six in 400 pounds.

[505] you're aware of your vulnerability.

[506] That's right.

[507] That's right.

[508] And I certainly want to raise...

[509] Because I'm not a woman.

[510] And yet I've had experiences where, you know, the thing that stopped me from being taken advantage of in some way was the fact that I, as a man, have been raised to be in my body, to own my voice, to own my yes and my no. And like, there's times that I say, no. And sometimes it's hard, and they'll call me names as I'm walking out the, door.

[511] You know, they say names at my back, but, but I got out.

[512] I got out the door.

[513] And some of those situations were just somebody that did not feel powerful enough.

[514] They didn't feel like they could get up and walk out of door.

[515] And I don't want that from my kid.

[516] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[517] We had a conversation before she was like, too, no was, of course, one of the first words she learned.

[518] And so the family, the family was doing this thing where they'd ask her, hey, Lucy, can I have a hug?

[519] And she'd, no. And then, oh, you know, they'd come and give her a hug.

[520] Luce can I have a kiss, no. And they'd give her a kiss and me and my wife talked about it one day late when I was like we need to talk to our family yeah and we need to tell them that when she says no you have to respect that if you ask her and she says no yep oh but we we had one where I kicked myself for like three weeks which is we were at this person's house and he wanted to give our daughter a hug goodbye and and she didn't want to and then he then he basically said like in so many words I'll give you this thing can I have a hug And then I was just kind of observing it, not thinking of the, the terrible pattern I just co -signed on.

[521] And then we left and I was like, oh, my God, man. I should have said like, no, dude, you're not teaching her to exchange her affection for some fucking object.

[522] But, you know, it's just happening so bad.

[523] There you go.

[524] It's like, I would think I'm the type of person that I would have done something, but I was, I guess, afraid to make everything awkward and blah, blah, blah.

[525] And then I was like, you know, going forward, I got to intervene.

[526] I got to stand up.

[527] But, you know, you got to learn that a little bit.

[528] You exactly.

[529] That's why those experiences are there.

[530] Look, what a tiny experience that you had to learn a big old, you know, that was the experience we had.

[531] We let it go on for a little bit.

[532] And then we were like, okay, we need to put a stop to it.

[533] You know, so they're there so that we can write the small lesson in bold print.

[534] Yeah.

[535] First of all, this has been so fucking fun, but I must, I insist we promote you as the brilliant star that you are.

[536] Now, Hamilton, I just watch it.

[537] Let me first say, I cannot stand musicals.

[538] My wife and I could not be further apart in our interest, right?

[539] I'm like, I don't get it.

[540] They're singing their emotions to one another, whatever.

[541] I have like two musicals in my life.

[542] I loved Book of Mormon, and I saw Hamilton in New York, and I was fucking blown away.

[543] I was blown away on so many levels.

[544] Just the fact that he got that whole book into that musical is impossible, but it was done.

[545] And then you guys were so outrageously great.

[546] And then we watched, of course, it on Disney Plus a couple nights ago.

[547] go.

[548] And this is the question I wanted to ask you.

[549] Did they record that in one night or was that multiple shows that they cut together?

[550] Two nights.

[551] Two nights.

[552] And then a couple days of, you know, pickups of like closeups and stuff.

[553] Okay.

[554] So I'm like, you know, some of these people had to have gone home thinking that was one of their worst shows.

[555] Oh, yeah.

[556] And it was just informative as a fellow performer.

[557] I'm like, everyone was brilliant.

[558] These times I think I sucked, I probably Didn't at the times I thought I was great, I was probably just as good as I sucked.

[559] I just wonder, like, what your personal experience is like, how the show can differ, even though for us, probably, we can't see it.

[560] The writing is king on Broadway anyway, so, like, you know, you get a great piece of writing and you just really have to get out of the way as an actor.

[561] So, I ain't write it.

[562] Like, that's all Lynn.

[563] My two Bibles, my Old Testament and my New Testament for this show were Lynn's script, of course.

[564] David Mamet's true and false.

[565] Oh.

[566] David Mamet's true and false was so instructive to me doing this show.

[567] Tell me why.

[568] It's a book on acting.

[569] Oh, okay.

[570] True and false is a book on acting.

[571] And essentially his theory is that actors can only fuck things up.

[572] And the only thing you can do as an actor is to say the lines that the author has written loud enough so that the audience can hear them.

[573] I like that.

[574] Yeah, it makes life easy.

[575] What is it, one -page book?

[576] Yes, David Babinson.

[577] When you are doing my plays, make sure they're heard and get off the American stage.

[578] Like, the end, right?

[579] Wow.

[580] But the follow -up behind that is essentially, listen, if something comes up for you, if my writing inspires something in you, don't stop that.

[581] Yeah.

[582] But all he's saying is, don't walk on the stage imposing your will on my writing.

[583] Oh, if you're not feeling anything, don't do anything.

[584] If you're not feeling anything, just say my words.

[585] Listen, and I'm on stage with David Diggs and Philip Asou and Lynn Manuel and Renee Elise Goldsbrose.

[586] I mean, Anthony Ramos, I mean, give me a break.

[587] Like, there's a whole lot here for me that really all I have to do is turn to my left and look and I'm inspired.

[588] And so that is the way I was working in that show.

[589] Like, just whatever comes up, I don't deny.

[590] And if I don't feel anything, I don't do anything.

[591] that's great great advice yes you but you you got you got it right as you can admit you've been through negotiations before so the day before the movie we were still in negotiations of whether I was going to do the movie because the movie had been announced that they were they were filming the show that had been announced but no one had called my agent to like ask if I wanted to do you know I'm our agent as a company you know you feel me it was like it was assumed that we wanted to do the movie and that we would do it for a certain number and all this stuff was assumed and mind you were a week before the contracts end okay so it's like the wonderful thing about what's happening in the streets is it has opened the door for more honest conversation like the one we're having right now yeah so four years ago when I was negotiating that contract let me say this my favorite quote that's come out of the streets from this movement is that America is lucky black people are not looking for revenge we're looking for for equality.

[592] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[593] We're not looking for revenge.

[594] And I'll say the reason why it resonated with me is because of my personal experience and all the black people that I've ever known, like, that really is what we're fighting for.

[595] They came to me with an offer and, you know, Leslie, we're shooting tomorrow.

[596] And I'm like, here's the thing.

[597] Here's the thing.

[598] This is it.

[599] This is my area of expertise.

[600] This is all I have.

[601] This is my life's work on the stage two, right?

[602] And so I just can't sell it away for magic beans.

[603] Like, I can't give it away.

[604] Yeah, good for you.

[605] And so, like, you're coming to me with this number, right?

[606] Yeah.

[607] So I can ask CAA, what does my white counterpart?

[608] What does Aaron Tivate make to do Greece live on TV?

[609] What does he make to do Greece?

[610] Yeah.

[611] This is Hamilton Live, right?

[612] Yes, yes, yes.

[613] So when I found out what he made, Dax, I didn't ask for a penny more.

[614] I didn't ask for one penny more.

[615] But I said, you must pay me exactly what that white boy got to do grease live.

[616] That's the bottom line.

[617] That is about, you know, I love my white liberal friends.

[618] I, you know, love white people, right?

[619] But don't be in the streets talking about black lives matter if my black life doesn't matter.

[620] Like, essentially, don't wait for the fucking cops to kill me before my black life matters.

[621] Yes.

[622] If my black life matters, make sure that I can take money home to feed my children.

[623] A thousand percent.

[624] Side note, I told Kristen, Frozen Three comes along.

[625] This is exactly what I was.

[626] I want you to do.

[627] I want you to walk in with what Robert Downey Jr. made for his franchise.

[628] I want you to walk in with five white males and what they made on their $3 billion franchise.

[629] And you say, I'll be taking this.

[630] And the thing is, you know, when I talk to young people and talk about the power of your yes or you know and getting up off the couch and simply walking out the door, it doesn't always work, right?

[631] Negotiations.

[632] I lose jobs sometimes.

[633] You know, the day before we shot that movie, I called out.

[634] I was not kidding.

[635] I was not coming to work the next day to do the movie.

[636] You know, I was not kidding.

[637] It was a principle for me. And sometimes it doesn't work out.

[638] You know, like, yeah, yeah.

[639] Sometimes they look at you and they're just not paying it.

[640] And you have to go, that's okay.

[641] For me, it is consistently because in this capitalist society, white dudes have set the pace.

[642] I'm going, what is the comp?

[643] What is my counterpart making to do this same work?

[644] I just want the same thing.

[645] I think there's this layer that happens with minorities and women, where there is this sense that, like, they should be so grateful.

[646] Yeah.

[647] And they shouldn't ask for more because they should be so grateful they're in this position that they're getting this much.

[648] This is a lot.

[649] And not looking at, yeah, the white counterpart or the male counterpart and saying they're doing the exact same thing or way less and getting way more.

[650] There's this, like, sense of you should have gratitude.

[651] And it's so fucked.

[652] Well said.

[653] There's that line in the, in the brief.

[654] brilliant Tony Morrison documentary.

[655] I think it's called Pieces of Me. It's brilliant.

[656] And she says she had to go to her.

[657] It's fucking Tony Morrison.

[658] You know what I mean?

[659] She was an editor.

[660] And she was, you know, this is like the 80s, like the 70s.

[661] So you know what she was dealing with.

[662] But she had to go in.

[663] She was a single mom.

[664] And she walked in and she was like, I'm looking at all the editors.

[665] They're all white men.

[666] And like, this guy's getting this and I'm getting this.

[667] Her boss said, oh, you know, what do you need that for?

[668] He's got a family.

[669] She's an head of household.

[670] He said, but Tony, I am head of household, end of conversation.

[671] And he, you know, she got her money.

[672] But, yeah, it's, you know, it's really thinking of us.

[673] You know, it's sometimes we got to do a little work to get people to know that we're the same.

[674] Yeah.

[675] And dude, you know, you won the Tony.

[676] You won a Grammy for that album.

[677] What's nice about that is it's like, at least it makes it objective a bit.

[678] Like, this isn't your ego going crazy.

[679] It's like, I have this accolade.

[680] This white dude has this accolade.

[681] His play was this successful.

[682] Ours was this successful.

[683] You know, tell me how that makes sense.

[684] Everybody's got their Achilles heel, right?

[685] So let's say mine is I always knew that since I was a kid, you know, like whenever I'm asking for justice or fairness, like the first thing that they do is like to say that I'm egotistical.

[686] How we'll destroy you is we'll say that you're an asshole.

[687] We'll say that you're egotistical.

[688] The subtext, right, is cocky, is not appreciative.

[689] Right.

[690] Is the things Monica just said.

[691] I had to remind my friend, you know, my friend the producer, just because, and like you said, in the light of today, in the light of this context, I want you to go back and look at the letter that I wrote you.

[692] When we were talking about this, that was not my ego then.

[693] It is not my ego now.

[694] Yeah.

[695] What I was asking you for was parody.

[696] That's it.

[697] It was never my ego, bro.

[698] I promise you.

[699] Yeah.

[700] Boy, that's, it's embarrassing for all of us.

[701] Okay.

[702] We're fixing it.

[703] Yeah, we're fixing it.

[704] I love your song, go crazy.

[705] the video's sexy Monica PQs you don't listen to the show but that means it's not not sexy that's what I'll say it's not not and it doesn't not give you PQs now the woman in the video who's the woman in the video oh her name is jazz okay so here's what I was thinking so I was like this is tricky because you're married and you're married to an actress and if I'm you I'm like well huh, see, this is like a sexy song about like single people.

[706] Like this isn't a song about married people.

[707] So I'm going to need to get some very attractive.

[708] I got to build this single.

[709] I can see me making this case to my wife.

[710] And I'm just curious.

[711] Well, we've had those conversations.

[712] You know, we've been together 12 years and we've had to have those honest conversations, especially as success goes up and down for both of us and all that kind of stuff.

[713] You know, we just really check in with each other and go, what is our expectation?

[714] and we just have to have honest conversations about it.

[715] We had a conversation not too long ago because my wife is a brilliant actress and a brilliant singer.

[716] And what I'm always trying to get her to understand is like, babe, you are always at the top of my mind.

[717] Like, yes.

[718] I am never skipping past you.

[719] Like, when it just, I want her trust as a creator.

[720] Like, as a creator, like, trust that if it's remotely right for you, you're my woman.

[721] Like, you're the, but if I'm not fighting for, you, if I'm not advocating for you for a particular part or a moment, it's just because I think that there's somebody more appropriate.

[722] Well, I, dude, I can give you the example, which is like I wrote this movie about my using years before I got sober.

[723] And it's like, I'm not casting Kristen as one of these junkie gals I paled around with back then.

[724] Like, it's just not her sweet spot.

[725] So, you know, artistically, I would have to say, this isn't the one for you.

[726] Right.

[727] We've had to have those conversations in it.

[728] It's interesting because you're in your video, you're playing.

[729] Leslie Odom Jr., so I just think it's more complicated.

[730] It is a little more complicated, but we've had to, you know, we've had to have those conversations.

[731] Like in the Regina, in the movie that we just wrapped up, a different actress was cast as my wife.

[732] Regina cast a different actress as my wife.

[733] When I read the script, I always thought that Nicolette would be great.

[734] Now, because of COVID, that actress wasn't willing to come and finish the movie.

[735] Right.

[736] And so Regina called me like, yo, what are we going to do?

[737] I was like, well, you know, I happened to live with an actress.

[738] I happen to be quarantined with a great actress.

[739] And so Nicolette ended up playing my wife.

[740] And she's brilliant.

[741] She's beautiful in this movie.

[742] She plays Sam Cook's wife in this movie.

[743] So, you know, like I'm trying to also use the evidence of our life.

[744] Like, you know, that helps me because it's like, babe, I promise you when it's something that you're going to shine.

[745] We've come through it.

[746] I said quarantine's been, man, the things we've learned about each other and the way we've grown in this thing is, you know, exceptional.

[747] It is a horrible trying time for so many, so many of my friends feel it backs up against the wall.

[748] And, you know, it's, like, it's just the most of everything in quarantine right now.

[749] Like, it's the most beautiful time and the most dreadful time and all of it, right?

[750] Yeah.

[751] Can I ask a technical question about when you're doing a show like Hamilton?

[752] Are you on vocal rest when you're not there?

[753] I mean, you really got to protect your voice, right?

[754] I wasn't.

[755] Some shows you do.

[756] But Hamilton was in every way.

[757] that the experience in the project just fit me like a glove.

[758] You know, it wasn't written out of my range.

[759] It was something that I had to take care of myself and I was happy to take care of myself.

[760] Is it less stressful to be, like, rapping a lot of it?

[761] Is that helpful?

[762] No, because, no, there's a lot of screaming and talking and all that shit.

[763] All I can say is, like, my training and shit.

[764] Like, I'm just sort of built for that eight shows a week kind of thing.

[765] You know, like, I love doing this thing.

[766] Like, for some people, it would be death, do the same show 500 times.

[767] I did that show over 500 times.

[768] Oh, my gosh.

[769] To me, like, that's exciting.

[770] I get to show up tonight and try to be better than I was last night.

[771] Just keep digging and digging until, you know.

[772] Well, that's what Kristen pointed out.

[773] I was, I was lamenting about how I just, I could not do it.

[774] I couldn't do eight shows a week for, for a year.

[775] She goes, yeah, but baby, you're comparing it to something you wouldn't want to do, basically, which is try to sing and you suck at singing.

[776] She's like, did you mind doing a live show at the groundlings every Sunday?

[777] I'm like, no, fucking live for her.

[778] She's like, what have you could have done that eight times a week?

[779] And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, I would have.

[780] But as you get older, I'm wondering, has your appetite, like, because it is such a commitment and you have a baby, all these different things, you have other opportunities that probably pay more for less work.

[781] Does it get less appealing?

[782] Or do you think you will always keep returning?

[783] Oh, I would love to return.

[784] I mean, it has to be something worthwhile because the sacrifice is so great.

[785] You don't make a lot of money.

[786] You are away from your family.

[787] You do have to take care of all those things.

[788] And so just the only requirement is that it has to be something worthwhile, which is a tall order.

[789] But no, man, I look at it as, it's like ministry to me, you know, it writes my whole life, you know.

[790] It just, it puts me in touch with my purpose.

[791] And I, I didn't get in the business to be a celebrity or be in TV and movies.

[792] I wanted to be on Broadway.

[793] So like, any chance I get to do that.

[794] Do do.

[795] Do do.

[796] Come on.

[797] Do you do.

[798] Do you do.

[799] And I said a neon lights of bright.

[800] Oh, we on Broadway.

[801] George Benson, maybe.

[802] Wait, I want to share one.

[803] You can tell me if it's true, because this is through Kristen's brain, but it's a story of hope, so I do want our listeners to hear it.

[804] She said that, you know, yeah, she knew you from New York, knew how talented you were, and then she saw you working at a grocery store, and she's like, oh, man, this guy's just so unbelievably talented, and he's working at a grocery.

[805] I'd be like if Babe Ruth took your keys at the valet, you'd be like, dude, aren't you supposed to be swinging a bat?

[806] Something doesn't feel right in the universe that this is happening.

[807] And then, you know, a week later, she heard that you got Hamilton.

[808] Right.

[809] Is that a true story?

[810] It's a true story.

[811] I can tell already that part of it's wrong because I know he quit.

[812] He had a TV job that he backed out of to do Hamilton, which I think must have took the most amount of bravery of your whole career.

[813] But it would have taken more bravery actually not to do Hamilton because I knew how special.

[814] that show was.

[815] But, so to, like, to not do Hamilton for, you know, a bag of money.

[816] I was just like, I wouldn't take anything.

[817] I wouldn't take anything to not do Hamilton.

[818] But she's right that, yeah, I mean, my survival job at some point, I just had happened to, this is going to make me sound like a shitty person, though.

[819] But no, but I feel like your podcast is about telling the truth.

[820] So the truth is, oh, I feel so bad.

[821] But I'm 22, 23 years old.

[822] And during the summers back at home, I had worked my way up to cashier at a grocery store.

[823] at home so I knew I was quick at the register and like I you know and it's good money right there's a union and you're getting like triple time on a Sunday if it's a holiday I'm one of my best friends in the groundleings Tim Lovstead he sometimes he's like what are you making today he's like four and a half times bro well you do you remember the grocery strike the union struck and so I was a scab oh oh okay okay okay okay I I applaud your honesty and by the way I I've been so many things worse than a scab.

[824] So you are in safe.

[825] You're in a good company.

[826] Yeah, so I did.

[827] That was my survival job.

[828] But we didn't know how, like the grocery store strike, it ended up, we didn't know if it was going to be a week or two weeks.

[829] I wouldn't scab today.

[830] I want to say, I've learned.

[831] I would not scab anything today.

[832] But I'm 22 years old.

[833] And, you know, and I'm dying out in L .A. And so they were striking.

[834] And so you didn't know, is it a week?

[835] Is it going to last two weeks?

[836] But they were paying everybody the maximum, which at that time was like $17 an hour.

[837] Wow.

[838] Give it to me. Bro, to scan groceries at the grocery store.

[839] Talk with beautiful moms.

[840] Come on.

[841] I did it around like three months.

[842] It could the strike lasted a long time, unfortunately.

[843] I really am sorry to all the union workers.

[844] Well, dude, I think the fact that you own that is the greatest thing.

[845] And your book failing up, I think addresses that, right?

[846] Like the many, many setbacks.

[847] I mean, because if I look at, if I tell one version of your life, right, it's that you were on Broadway at 17 years old, that you've been on Broadway for 22 years more than you've not been on Broadway.

[848] But that's not the complete story, is it?

[849] No. I did that Broadway show, and then it was over a decade before I did another one.

[850] It was, you know, over a decade before I did another Broadway show.

[851] And then, and I've only done three, you know, there was rent, which was a dream come true.

[852] You know, I say sometimes half joking, you know, but I didn't want to be on television and movies.

[853] I didn't want to be in show business even.

[854] I wanted to be in rent.

[855] Like that was my dream.

[856] So it was like I'd won a fan contest or something.

[857] You know, like one day I'm loving the show and then the next, I like blink my eyes and I'm standing in the seasons of love line and like singing to an audience.

[858] It's crazy.

[859] I did that show and then I had to dream another dream for myself.

[860] So then the next show that I did over 10 years later was a show called Leap of Faith.

[861] We ran two and a half weeks on Broadway before we closed.

[862] And then the next show was Hamilton.

[863] Wow.

[864] Wowsers.

[865] That's wild.

[866] You've got two albums that are out.

[867] I think you're making another one maybe.

[868] It's rumored.

[869] Yeah, man. But 2016, Leslie Odom Jr., number one on the jazz charts, 2018, simply Christmas number one on the jazz charts.

[870] Your single Go Crazy is everywhere and doing great.

[871] Yeah, that's from my first album of all original music.

[872] I just put out an album of all original music, and I'm super proud of it.

[873] This weekend, we went after the movie, of course.

[874] We went to, we were number one on iTunes pop charts.

[875] for the whole weekend and yesterday.

[876] It was amazing, yeah.

[877] That's great, man. Thank you.

[878] I'm so happy to hear that.

[879] Oh, last thing I got to say, Central Park is the best cartoon I've seen since The Simpsons.

[880] I mean, you're on, you're on like one of the greatest cartoons ever made.

[881] I can't believe how good it is.

[882] Like Kristen had early ones and let's watch it.

[883] I'm like, here we go.

[884] You know, I got to watch encore about people reassembling their musical theater.

[885] My wife loves that show by the other.

[886] I'm sure she does.

[887] I'm sure she does.

[888] You know, there's a lot of stuff that I watch.

[889] And so this thing starts and I'm like, my goodness, babe, you are in like the best cartoon in the world right now.

[890] It's a good cartoon.

[891] It's a good cartoon.

[892] And Josh, you know Josh very well.

[893] I love Josh's episode of your show.

[894] But Josh and I went to college together.

[895] Carnegie Mellon.

[896] Yeah, we were little babies.

[897] And I've been working on his weird little projects for over 20 years.

[898] It's the first time he's ever paid me, though.

[899] So it's, yeah, we're having a ball.

[900] I love it.

[901] That's great.

[902] That's great.

[903] And that's on Apple.

[904] And then, of course, Hamilton is on Disney Plus.

[905] And then your music is available everywhere.

[906] Music's available.

[907] Leslie, I hoping all this is over, we'll all hang.

[908] You Bell and Nicolet and I. Yeah, that would be fun.

[909] I would love that.

[910] Thank you both so much.

[911] Thank you, Monica.

[912] Thank you, Dax, for making space.

[913] I appreciate it.

[914] Absolutely.

[915] We love your show.

[916] Oh, thanks, man. Bye.

[917] Bye.

[918] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[919] I'm happy to be back here.

[920] I know you've been out of town.

[921] Yeah, I had a one week business trip.

[922] It sounds funny to call it a business trip.

[923] That seems like what moms and dads do at embassy suites.

[924] That's what you did.

[925] Well, that's true.

[926] You're a mom and dad and you stayed in virtually in embassy.

[927] I was in a holiday in Express at one point and then a Sheridan.

[928] And I don't know if it's Sheridan or Sheraton.

[929] I think it's Sheridan.

[930] Oh, I think it's a D. I don't know.

[931] Is it a D?

[932] Neither of these are endorsements.

[933] It's a D. It's a D. Sheridan.

[934] Wait, Sheridan.

[935] No. Hold on.

[936] Oh, fuck.

[937] That's a different Sheridan.

[938] It's Sheraton.

[939] Okay, with the T, I was right to be nervous.

[940] Oh, my God.

[941] Good thing we checked.

[942] Jess texted me the other day and he said, did you know it's actually hard as hail?

[943] not hard as hell.

[944] What?

[945] Yes.

[946] And then I said, really?

[947] And then he immediately said, actually, no. So he must have, I think he heard it on TikTok.

[948] Oh.

[949] Yeah, he's getting a lot of his info now from TikTok.

[950] Pretty much exclusively from TikTok.

[951] I thought they ended it because it was a Chinese company.

[952] So did I, but it's still there.

[953] It's not slowing anyone down, huh?

[954] I think what happened is, you know, a lot of southerners say that.

[955] Hard as hail.

[956] One of my favorite pronunciations of hell like that was on this program about an animal wrangler.

[957] He'd go get like alligators out of swamps and stuff.

[958] Sure.

[959] He got bit by a snake.

[960] He wasn't there to deal with a snake, but he was there to deal with an alligator on his way back to his truck to get some tools.

[961] He just saw a snake in the grass.

[962] So they weren't even on him tight.

[963] And he's like, I don't know a snake.

[964] And he grabbed it.

[965] And then all of a sudden he heard, yeah, it hurt like hell.

[966] He got bit by the snake, which wasn't even while he was there.

[967] And then I was wondering how good he was at this job.

[968] Yeah, you're right to question it.

[969] Because he was very much fashion first.

[970] He had like really bleached hair and spiky and lots of true religion, chains in the wallet.

[971] Wait, was it Guy Fieri?

[972] No, no, but very similar look.

[973] Yeah, so good.

[974] You're on the right path.

[975] Okay.

[976] He just went and got things out of people's palms and yards.

[977] Yeah.

[978] Oh, my.

[979] I think you know, but I don't think you know.

[980] No, I really hate snakes.

[981] Oh, really?

[982] Yes.

[983] Number one on your hate list?

[984] Okay, or let's call it fearless.

[985] Okay, but you'd rather be face -to -face with a snake than a lion.

[986] I hope so.

[987] Yes.

[988] I get sort of paralyzed thinking about a snake.

[989] One of my best friends from home has like a true phobia of it, even if you like say it.

[990] If she hears it.

[991] Oh, my God.

[992] You know who I thought your friend was immediately?

[993] Indiana Jones.

[994] Oh, does Indiana Jones hate snakes?

[995] Why did it have to be snakes?

[996] He hates snakes.

[997] Does he get paralyzed?

[998] Yeah, it seems to be the only thing he was afraid of.

[999] Remember, he goes into that pyramid.

[1000] You've never seen Indiana Jones?

[1001] Okay, I have seen one of them at the Cannes Film Festival, but I was mainly, like, not paying attention and pretty high on all the celebrities that were there.

[1002] Yeah, and also probably was one of the later ones.

[1003] I make no claims on the later ones.

[1004] It was, yeah.

[1005] But the first movie is insanely great.

[1006] Okay.

[1007] I mean, they built a ride at Universal.

[1008] I know, but isn't there some racist stuff or no?

[1009] Not that I'm aware of.

[1010] Oh, okay, okay.

[1011] Maybe not.

[1012] I don't know why I thought that.

[1013] You never know.

[1014] I watch some of these things now and I'm like, oh, yeah, that would, that's not a great, well, short circuit, let's just say.

[1015] You know, you got an Anglo man playing Indian.

[1016] Wow.

[1017] So I never heard of that movie.

[1018] Right.

[1019] And all you remember is if you were a kid is the robot came to life.

[1020] That's really what you remember.

[1021] Yeah.

[1022] Yeah, so Kristen decided to show it, do a viewing party for the kids, and we were all there.

[1023] And then there's a brown face situation.

[1024] Sure, it's a little troubling.

[1025] And an accent.

[1026] Oh, it was bad.

[1027] Yeah, yeah.

[1028] Again, I would have never even thought of any of it.

[1029] Yeah.

[1030] But then I was like, oh, yeah, this is very outdated.

[1031] Yeah.

[1032] Okay, now back to Indiana Jones.

[1033] I don't think there's anything like that in there, but of course, we should watch it together.

[1034] I'll find out in fast order if there's something dicey.

[1035] Well, I'm not going to like the snake's space.

[1036] part.

[1037] I'm telling you right now.

[1038] But you might love it because the hero who's fearless also fear snakes.

[1039] So you might feel a great kinship.

[1040] Okay.

[1041] He does not go into brownface at any point in the movie.

[1042] But he is awfully tan.

[1043] Well, he gets into some dustups where he gets dirty, but he's never presumed to be a different ethnicity.

[1044] Do you think he gets covered in dust and then someone like thinks he's Indian and then starts speaking in an accent, like some misunderstanding?

[1045] Well, it's possible some of the extras in the back.

[1046] background, the BG players, they might be making some choices and assumptions that the director didn't intend.

[1047] I can't speak to them.

[1048] Whether they're looking at him going, oh, I think he's playing Indian.

[1049] Okay.

[1050] I can't speak on that because they don't have lines.

[1051] But then what if they don't have lines, but maybe they, in the background, they're talking to each other and they're moving their mouths because, like, they're supposed to be moving.

[1052] Well, no, like, they're supposed to be, like, in the, like, diner, like, talking, but they're just actually voice.

[1053] But even though they're voiceless, they're doing an accent in their brain.

[1054] Oh, okay.

[1055] That's possible.

[1056] I thought you were going another direction, which is they're supposed to be pantomiming, not making any noise.

[1057] But once they decided he was in brownface, they thought all bets are off.

[1058] I'm speaking in this scene.

[1059] I thought that's why.

[1060] So I'm allowed to speak.

[1061] This guy's supposed to be the lead of the movie, but now he's not.

[1062] I'm the lead of the movie.

[1063] Lots of racist stuff could be happening that we don't know about.

[1064] Yeah.

[1065] Why were we talking about snakes?

[1066] You're afraid of snakes.

[1067] Okay, what about submersion therapy?

[1068] Were you...

[1069] Immersion?

[1070] Immersion, sorry.

[1071] Immersion therapy.

[1072] Well, I thought you meant submersion and I was going to be submerged in snakes.

[1073] Well, that's what I was thinking is what if we got like a coffin and we filled it halfway up with snakes?

[1074] No. None of them were poisonous.

[1075] So mentally you knew you could get in there and nothing would happen.

[1076] You would just be...

[1077] But they could still strangle.

[1078] Is he be Ghibi -B racist?

[1079] Oh, no. It kind of sounds like it.

[1080] It does, right?

[1081] Yeah.

[1082] Okay.

[1083] Now back to this coffin for your immersion therapy.

[1084] If I fill it with half full of snakes, is there a figure that you would get in it for amount of money?

[1085] Oh my God.

[1086] And I knew for sure.

[1087] Oh, this is exciting.

[1088] You're squirming all around like an actual snake.

[1089] So I know for sure they wouldn't be able to bite or strangle.

[1090] Well, there's no guarantee they won't bite you.

[1091] It's that there's no poisonous ones.

[1092] And we know that no snake bite on its.

[1093] own is deadly but it would hurt oh big whoop just be like getting a shot no oh my god oh my god yeah you might get a bite on your like inner thigh back your neck your ear one could be attached to your earlobe uh but again this is all inside my ear well this is all just pain you can certainly tolerate you've had more painful things than getting bit by a snake in your life we're talking about a billion dollars on the table.

[1094] Oh, a billion?

[1095] Yeah.

[1096] Would you do it for a billion dollars?

[1097] Yes.

[1098] I would be irresponsible to not.

[1099] See, a billion is not a good number because I would be a bad person if I didn't do that because then I could like give it to charity.

[1100] That's right.

[1101] I'm trying to get you in a position where you would seem unethical to not.

[1102] Oh, I have one for you.

[1103] That's going to be so over the top.

[1104] You're going to have to cut it out.

[1105] Okay.

[1106] Go ahead.

[1107] Okay.

[1108] So you'll be anesthetized for this.

[1109] And the snake will too.

[1110] But they will put.

[1111] the snake in your butthole and so that the face is aiming towards the exit of your butt but it'll be up in your lower GI and then they'll bring both of you awake no because they have the technology they'll do like a adrenaline shot for both of you and then you'll have to let the snake crawl out what if he doesn't person well we know it will in this scenario so yes you have to have a snake put in your butt and let it crawl out of your butt and what's the price tag on that And is his mouth shut?

[1112] No, no, no. No, his mouth is fully functional.

[1113] We don't want to put the snake through any kind of stress.

[1114] Okay, listen, I'm risking death here then.

[1115] No, no, no, no. You would not die if a snake bit the inside of your butt hole.

[1116] Yes, yes, I would.

[1117] No. We have a team of surgeons on standby.

[1118] You're not going to bleed out from this little fissure, this little gardener snake.

[1119] Stop, I hate it.

[1120] Garden snake, gardener snake.

[1121] gardener snake no don't get distracted don't know you're trying to find safety and internet search what's the price like I can tell you what the price for me is how much 200 grand no yeah yeah that's not true I don't have a fear of a snake crawling on my butt in fact if I could feel one in my butt I would pray that it would crawl out well let's be honest slither out they don't crawl yeah I'm sorry everybody but There's significant money on the table here.

[1122] But the fact that he's getting implanted in there is a horrible part.

[1123] No, he and I are both taking naps.

[1124] And then we're both brought to a waking state.

[1125] And we both realize, ooh, neither of us want to be in this position.

[1126] And so are you pushing him out?

[1127] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1128] Like a poop.

[1129] Yeah.

[1130] I think your body, your muscle memory would take over and you'd start pushing him out like he was a poop, whether you knew better or not.

[1131] This makes me want to cry.

[1132] Good.

[1133] What's the price?

[1134] You're looking at maybe five, ten minutes of discomfort in your whole life.

[1135] $50 million.

[1136] $50 million.

[1137] So for $49 million, you wouldn't have a snake up your butt?

[1138] No. Wow.

[1139] You have such integrity.

[1140] I really admire it.

[1141] I don't think it's integrity.

[1142] It is.

[1143] It is.

[1144] $50 million.

[1145] I could give a lot of weight of charity.

[1146] I could buy my house and renovate it.

[1147] how I wanted it.

[1148] And I could buy stuff for my family.

[1149] For 10 uncomfortable minutes.

[1150] And I have plenty of money for children, but not less than that.

[1151] Okay.

[1152] 50 million is the price.

[1153] So arm cherries, if you all donate $50, which I know is a lot for a lot of you and not a lot for others.

[1154] So maybe the ones that that's not much, you could donate $100 ,000.

[1155] I'm sorry, $100.

[1156] But we could get this done.

[1157] Stop.

[1158] Now, of course, we're underestimating the cost of the procedure and finding medical professionals that would perform it.

[1159] But let's not get hung up on that.

[1160] Right now, let's just try to crowdsource this 50 -mill to watch you deal with the snake.

[1161] Well, I think if people donate 50 bucks, they're entitled to see it exit your butt, don't you?

[1162] I mean, as long as they agree to not make it sexual.

[1163] That seems like a reasonable thing to ask.

[1164] It's a three -foot snake.

[1165] That is not even fitting in my body.

[1166] Sure, it will.

[1167] When you get a camera for a call, on oscopy up your butt.

[1168] It's like five foot of camera.

[1169] But the snake can't get up in my organs.

[1170] No, no. Again, it's going to be facing towards your rectum, just to be really clear about this.

[1171] Well, his head is going to be on his way out.

[1172] That's right.

[1173] His head, hmm, would you feel more comfortable if the head stays outside of your anus?

[1174] Yeah.

[1175] Yeah, I guess so.

[1176] Because part of it is I'm scared he's going to start biting me inside my butt.

[1177] But I think his, his or her, let's not be sexist.

[1178] He's definitely a boy.

[1179] Her goal might be just to exit.

[1180] I don't know why biting anything makes you feel like you're exiting quicker.

[1181] This has to be part of it because as soon as he comes out, he's definitely a boy.

[1182] As soon as he comes out, he's going to be riled up.

[1183] He's going to be pissed.

[1184] Or relieved to be out of your butt.

[1185] He's going to be pissed.

[1186] He was stuck and then he got released.

[1187] And then he's definitely going to bite my neck off.

[1188] No, no, no, no, no. Well, listen, if you found yourself, if you woke up tomorrow morning and you were.

[1189] in a room with no doors or windows.

[1190] You know, I get scared.

[1191] Would your first option be to start biting the walls, or would you try to start figuring on how to get out of there?

[1192] You wouldn't bite the walls.

[1193] Biting would be low, low on your list of...

[1194] But I'm not a snake.

[1195] Snakes bite.

[1196] That's what they do.

[1197] In a pinch, when it helps them, to defend themselves.

[1198] But they're not biting as a hobby.

[1199] But they think they need to defend against me because I'm, like, keeping them in my butt.

[1200] Well, but they don't know you're in...

[1201] He knows.

[1202] They don't know.

[1203] they're in your butt specifically for sure.

[1204] I don't think they even know they're in a butt, much less yours.

[1205] Okay, quick question.

[1206] If you had to wake up in someone's butt, live or dead, who's butt would you want to wake up in?

[1207] Okay.

[1208] Matt Damon's?

[1209] Hmm.

[1210] No, because truthfully, I think I'd want to wake up in a girl's butt.

[1211] Probably a vegetarian's butt.

[1212] Okay.

[1213] Because They're getting all their poop out of there.

[1214] Yeah, stinkier, but yeah.

[1215] That's a good point.

[1216] I don't want it to be stinky.

[1217] I have one.

[1218] Okay, who?

[1219] Penelope Cruz, Circa, Vanilla Sky.

[1220] Tell me why.

[1221] You have to tell me why.

[1222] Is your head like the snakes?

[1223] Like, it's like kind of towards the butthole.

[1224] Yeah.

[1225] Okay.

[1226] Yep.

[1227] Yeah.

[1228] And then to me that, for whatever reason, that seems obvious that I'd want it to be Penelope Cruz.

[1229] of Sky.

[1230] I pick.

[1231] Gwyneth Paltrow.

[1232] That's a good pick.

[1233] This could be an award we gave out at the end of every year.

[1234] Because it says a lot about the person.

[1235] It's like a hygiene award, a diet award.

[1236] Yeah, I'm trying to think, who do I think is like the cleanest person?

[1237] Gwyneth is a good, that is good.

[1238] Yeah, that's really good.

[1239] Yeah.

[1240] That's really good.

[1241] That's pretty good.

[1242] All right.

[1243] I'll take that for now.

[1244] You could wake up in there next to other things that they'd that Goop decided was also good to be in your butt.

[1245] That's the only potential downside, I think.

[1246] Oh, but I'd be okay with sharing space.

[1247] Okay.

[1248] Okay, I'll stick with Gwyneth for now.

[1249] Great.

[1250] Speaking of hot people.

[1251] Oh, okay.

[1252] Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[1253] Wowzers, yeah, yeah.

[1254] X factor galore.

[1255] Yes.

[1256] But, okay, so he mentions Kristen's Lifetime movie.

[1257] that movie is called Gracie's choice.

[1258] Gracie's choice.

[1259] Gracie's a 16 -year -old girl whose mother is on a fast track to self -destruction.

[1260] Uh -oh.

[1261] The police arrest her mother and separate the children, but Gracie does whatever she can to keep her family together.

[1262] Yeah.

[1263] The mother is in and out of their lives and her sister gets pregnant and runs off to get married.

[1264] So Gracie takes on the challenge of being the caregiver and guardian to her brothers while putting herself through school and working part -time.

[1265] She has a lot on her plate.

[1266] I've watched this movie.

[1267] It's great.

[1268] She's great.

[1269] An added bonus to watching it.

[1270] And Truth Pattoll is the reason I checked it out in the first place, is her mother was visiting for a lot of that movie.

[1271] And her mother got put in as background.

[1272] So she makes some crosses.

[1273] Oh.

[1274] And she really got carried away with the crosses.

[1275] There are scenes where her mother crosses three, four times in a scene.

[1276] Gracie will go into another room.

[1277] And lo and behold, that woman is also crossing in that room.

[1278] Okay.

[1279] It is great fun.

[1280] If you know and love Lori and you know and love Kristen to watch it for that reason.

[1281] To be fair to Lori, who I do know and love, I don't blame her.

[1282] Obviously, I blame the director who's like not paying attention.

[1283] Let's be specific.

[1284] You should be blaming the AD, the assistant director.

[1285] They're in charge of background.

[1286] The director can't be worrying about the performances of the leads and also myopically staring at the crosses in the background.

[1287] They've missed the performance.

[1288] Look, they could do it all.

[1289] If they want their movie to be good.

[1290] And I'm not even putting shade on the AD of Gracie's choice because that AD she or he may have thought, oh, who gives a shit?

[1291] No one's going to notice and they're having a blast.

[1292] And I would co -sign on that.

[1293] That's true.

[1294] So Cassius Clay, you said he knocked someone out that was white early on.

[1295] I didn't find that.

[1296] Okay.

[1297] Sunny Liston is black.

[1298] Yeah.

[1299] Okay.

[1300] Okay, Malcolm Gladwell token episode is called The Hug Heard Around the World.

[1301] The Hug Herd Round the World.

[1302] Sammy Davis Jr. hugs Richard Nixon at the 1972 Republican National Convention.

[1303] Mm -hmm.

[1304] Which alienated him from the black community at large.

[1305] Yes.

[1306] Yeah.

[1307] Oh, okay.

[1308] The Tony Morrison Dock is called The Pieces I Am.

[1309] Okay.

[1310] And then he talks about being a scab for the gross restructure.

[1311] union.

[1312] I had never heard that phrase before.

[1313] Oh.

[1314] I didn't know about it.

[1315] Yeah.

[1316] But it's a union worker who returns to the job without permission from the union or a non -union employee who needs the work and is willing to put up with a taunts, threats, and even violence from strikers.

[1317] In either case, he or she is the mortal enemy of the labor union, an organization that's designed to protect the interests of workers from the possible tyranny of management.

[1318] The only true weapon of the labor union is a strike and scab labor renders a strike useless yeah so michigan's a very very union centric state yeah and of course i'm very pro union and that term scab was very well known where i grew up and it was like the worst thing you can be what i can now see is you know once again it's a way for the true antagonist to go unchecked, right?

[1319] So the whole struggle then becomes about the scabs versus the union workers when it's like, oh, well, the shop owner just got off scot -free because now you guys are mad at the scabs.

[1320] Right.

[1321] Yeah, it kind of gets diverted.

[1322] I can see another side of the argument now that I've left Detroit, which is like, well, it's convenient for the employer to make it all about the scab and the union worker when that's not really what the fight is.

[1323] Yeah, that's true.

[1324] And also like, what, they need money.

[1325] Yeah, but I get it.

[1326] They're right.

[1327] You know, the unions are asking all people to help and curb the behavior of these multinational companies.

[1328] And so the citizens have to bond together.

[1329] And even if you don't work for that company, you might be asked or called upon to help with that mission.

[1330] It's kind of hard because, I mean, I know you benefit.

[1331] So you'd want to help.

[1332] but also if you're struggling, if you can't put dinner on the table, you're really put in a bad position.

[1333] Yeah, yeah.

[1334] The reason it's never been a great threat to SAG, the Screen Actress Guild, is you can't really replace all the people that you and I want to see on TV with non -union labor and be satisfied.

[1335] So there's this, like, uniqueness to the job that kind of helps keep the union strong.

[1336] Yeah.

[1337] So they can't just replace everyone on TV.

[1338] Yeah, but it's also funny because I was thinking about SAG the other day.

[1339] We were talking about unions and I have some conflicting feelings about unions, much of which is circling around their protection of getting fired.

[1340] And we don't have that.

[1341] I can get fired on set tomorrow.

[1342] Like, I'm not protected from getting fired.

[1343] It's not like nearly impossible to fire me. People get fired all the time on acting jobs and on sets they do but i think where your union protection comes in is that you get paid for that job i think that's one aspect of it so when you get fired you still get paid which i don't think is right the norm in a non -union yeah that's true where i'm critical of unions is quite often so they've been the greatest thing in our country's history for creating a middle class you know and i grew up in a town that heavily benefited from union wages and entitlements.

[1344] And I think those are great.

[1345] I do think there have been times, though, when the union doesn't want to acknowledge the economics that has happened, where it's like you've got a company like Toyota competing with a company like General Motors, and General Motors is all union shops and Toyota's not union shops.

[1346] And so Toyota might even be willing to pay as much per hour as the union shops will, but they're not willing to take on 30 years of retirement.

[1347] Right.

[1348] A lot of the entitlement and retirement packages and health care packages that have been negotiated are simply unviable or unsustainable.

[1349] And so when you get up against the reality of that, there's been times where I think I've sided somewhat with some manufacturers or minimally just said, wow, it's very unfair that Toyota doesn't have to have union employees and GM does and they're competing in the same marketplace.

[1350] I just don't think there should be, I don't think it should be so hard to get fired from a job if you clearly had a lot of misconduct or even just egregious misconduct.

[1351] Yeah, that's the other place where I think they can get carried away or there's plenty of history of them getting carried away.

[1352] Yeah.

[1353] You know, these teachers.

[1354] I know.

[1355] And police.

[1356] Yeah, who have, yeah, teachers, police, auto workers, I'm sure, they get caught sleeping in the bathroom.

[1357] with an extinguished duby next to them and a snake up their butt and two or three snakes up their butt and you can't fire yeah but it's really interesting too i was just going to add that something that's happened in the evolution of industry over the last 15 years it's not totally talked about all the time is that there's fewer and fewer and fewer and fewer union jobs because there's more and more automation right and on one hand it's even more viable for the manufacturers to pay union rates because they have far less union employees than they've ever had.

[1358] And it's that much harder for the union workers to get what they want because there's far less of them to go on strike.

[1359] So they're like overall role in the manufacturing has diminished as automation has taken up.

[1360] That makes sense.

[1361] Yeah.

[1362] So it's getting harder and harder for them to protect what they've fought for.

[1363] Yeah.

[1364] Well, food for thought.

[1365] Yeah.

[1366] Leslie was fantastic, and that's all of the facts I have.

[1367] That was all?

[1368] Yeah.

[1369] What a babe.

[1370] What a charmer.

[1371] Would it be inappropriate for us to have a top five at the end of all this?

[1372] You told us the top five dudes you wanted to hook up with based on the show.

[1373] So I feel like Leslie's in a top five position.

[1374] That probably is inappropriate, yeah.

[1375] Okay.

[1376] But isn't the power dynamics such that we can get away with that?

[1377] Because it's a dangerous world for women.

[1378] But it's not a very dangerous world for men at the hands of women.

[1379] So do we think maybe you could do that?

[1380] I'll think about it.

[1381] Okay, think about it.

[1382] Okay, it's another food for thought.

[1383] Okay, good.

[1384] It's another piece of food.

[1385] Okay, because I just feel like he's definitely in the top five, just from my point of view, watching your level of elation, you know, on your face as you were just listening to info.

[1386] Yeah.

[1387] Yeah.

[1388] All the pictures, you're really smiling.

[1389] My goodness.

[1390] Lit up like a Christmas tree.

[1391] Okay.

[1392] Okay, okay, okay.

[1393] I love you.

[1394] Love you.

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