S13 E4: [Odessa] The Mask Came Off

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences.

[11] Episodes discuss topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, suicide, and murder.

[12] If you're in need of support, please visit Something Was Wrong .com slash resources for a list of non -profit organizations that can help.

[13] I'm not a therapist or a doctor.

[14] Most names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[15] Opinions expressed by guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent my views.

[16] Resources and source material are linked in the episode notes.

[17] Thank you so much for listening.

[18] I decided I was going to recreate our first date, but COVID version, so it would be socially distanced from other people and I went all out.

[19] I was excited to feel good and feel happy for just a moment, even if it was forced.

[20] I was finishing getting ready and he comes into our room and he looks at me and says, I can't go on the day tonight.

[21] And he has this face that he would always get whenever things were bad if he felt guilty about something.

[22] And I was like, why?

[23] What happened?

[24] He was just like, Odessa, I. can't, I can't go on the stage tonight.

[25] I was like, you said that, like, but what happened?

[26] Why?

[27] Did you watch porn?

[28] And he just exhaled and put his hands over his face.

[29] And I remember being like, come on, let's talk about this.

[30] So we walked over to our bed and I just sat down and I was like, okay, what's going on?

[31] And he got down on his knees and he was just holding his face in his hands.

[32] He looked up at me and he said, I've been cheating on you.

[33] I lost it.

[34] Throughout most of our relationship, I would say that I've been patient and kind, but I'm the kind of person who is very independent.

[35] I am a get shit done kind of girl.

[36] I am the girl who everybody would arguably say you don't want to mess with because I'm going to vocalize how I feel.

[37] but I was never really like that with Carl.

[38] I remember getting up and walking to the bathroom to grab my cell phone, to call my mom and tell her not to come watch our daughter that we didn't need a babysitter anymore.

[39] And I walked back into the room while it was dialing.

[40] I looked to him and I said, do you see how fucking good I look right now?

[41] I don't know why that still to this day is so hilarious to me that that was my response to I'm cheating on you, but it is.

[42] He just looked at me and put his hands back over his face.

[43] I called my mom and told her, you don't need to come.

[44] And I looked at him and I was like, what is wrong with you?

[45] What, like, what is wrong with you?

[46] How long has this been going on?

[47] He said it had been going on for a few months.

[48] I was like, who?

[49] Who were you sleeping with?

[50] When did you have time to cheat on me?

[51] He wasn't really answering a lot of my questions.

[52] and I was so mad at this point and so ready to just rip his head off that I was like, I'm done.

[53] And I walked out of the room and I went into Piper's room.

[54] I texted our house group chat and I said, everybody come to Piper's room immediately.

[55] Within a few minutes, my sister was in the room.

[56] And I looked at her and I said, he cheated on me, get him out of my fucking house.

[57] She was done.

[58] She was beyond done.

[59] A few seconds later, Piper's husband comes bursting through the doors, like, what's going on?

[60] What's happening?

[61] And I said, go get his shit out of my house.

[62] Get him the fuck out of my house.

[63] I'm done.

[64] Get him out.

[65] And without even a question, he needed no information.

[66] He turned around and he went to remove Carl from the premises.

[67] Piper then came in.

[68] She's like, what is going on?

[69] And I told her that he revealed that he had been cheating.

[70] And she was so beyond mad.

[71] And something to know about Piper is that she's like the girl that everybody would apologize for cursing in front of.

[72] She was like very cute and quaint.

[73] And she was just like, this fucking guy!

[74] In that moment, we were all just so pissed and so angry because what we had all gone through the past week.

[75] And then for him to reveal this, after I had blatantly asked him, have you been seeing someone else?

[76] Is there someone else?

[77] And he said no to me the week prior.

[78] This was such a slap in the face.

[79] I am fully six months pregnant.

[80] I was totally utterly shocked because you would never have guessed that Carl, of all people, would do this.

[81] Not one person that I know would have told you that they would have guessed that he would do this.

[82] My roommate, Piper's husband, when they got outside, he was already gone.

[83] He was pulling out of the driveway.

[84] He literally packed his stuff before and was completely ready before he even told me. After he peeled out And my sister and Piper's husband saw him They were just like, bro, what the fuck?

[85] They came barreling back in And I was already downstairs And I went into the guest room Which is where he had been sleeping.

[86] I saw on the bed that he was staying in A letter that he had written to me And it was eight pages long Front and back Straight up Ross and Rachel style this whole letter is honestly revolting to reread basically he talks on and on about how he loved me and how I was the best wife and the best mom but taking care of me became a burden to him and that he was scared to communicate how he felt because I was so good at communicating and he wasn't so because I was good at communication that gave him a pass not to communicate how he felt or what he was feeling.

[87] He made a lot of claims and promises that are honestly laughable.

[88] He wrote an entire paragraph claiming, I'm not mad that you didn't want to have sex, but I was really pissed off that you didn't want to have sex.

[89] It completely contradicted itself within the same sentence, within the same breath.

[90] This is my first time rereading it in like a year and a half.

[91] This part still to this day infuriates me that he has absolutely no memory of us having sex for the last six months of our relationship before he left.

[92] And that feels like such a cop -out to me and such a blatant slap in the face because while I'm putting myself through trauma for him so that he wouldn't guilt -trip me so that he wouldn't make me feel like crap, so that I wouldn't wake up and have him already doing things to me without my consent, While I'm doing all of this, he now is claiming that he doesn't even remember.

[93] I had to disassociate.

[94] I had to do all of these things mentally just to tolerate our sex life.

[95] And he's claiming he has no recollection of it.

[96] It was just like, wow, that's great.

[97] That's really great.

[98] So disgusting.

[99] The last page is all him having the utter audacity.

[100] to encourage me to cling to God in a letter where he is literally revealing the details of his adultery.

[101] In this letter, he goes into great detail about his affair with this coworker.

[102] He straight up says, I would have sex with her and then I would come home and have to shower before climbing into bed with you.

[103] He talks about how he cried on the way home.

[104] He talks about how she was into married men and that was her cup of tea.

[105] He goes into extreme disturbing detail about this affair.

[106] And yet in this same letter, he's claiming that we should be clinging to Jesus.

[107] So he's trying to preach to me in this exact same letter.

[108] It's just disgusting.

[109] The fact that he talks about her character and how she was horrible and she was a bad worker, all of these things, it seems so odd to me that he would give me this much detail.

[110] I'm so sorry.

[111] I cannot.

[112] The audacity.

[113] The audacity.

[114] It destroyed me. Him saying that taking care of me when I was extremely sick while I was pregnant was such a slap in the face.

[115] And him claiming that I was a burden to him when, And I literally felt like my body was being torn apart for him.

[116] It's such trash.

[117] It's your own kid.

[118] You're caring for your own baby.

[119] Are you kidding me?

[120] Like through sickness and health, motherfucker?

[121] It hasn't even been that long.

[122] Sorry.

[123] Wow, I'm really juiced up this Monday.

[124] I'm sorry.

[125] No, I love it.

[126] Honestly, yes, the absolute audacity.

[127] When I first read it, I felt so devastated reading these words from somebody who I still very much so loved.

[128] and now I reread it.

[129] It's a year and a half later and it's laughable.

[130] Like I literally was laughing, rereading it because he has since contradicted every single thing that he has said in there.

[131] And honestly, I was extremely traumatized by this letter.

[132] But now I look at it and I'm like, oh my God, what a load of bullshit.

[133] What a load of bullshit.

[134] Yeah.

[135] So after reading this letter, I was like, fuck you.

[136] I'm so done.

[137] and how dare you claim that I was a burden to you?

[138] I paid all of the bills.

[139] I did all of our finances.

[140] I made all of the life choices.

[141] I made all of the decisions.

[142] I was the one who had to figure out where we would live.

[143] I was the one that would figure out how we would move if we had to move.

[144] I was the one who figured out how much money we had to spend on gas, how much money we had to spend on groceries.

[145] I was the one that planned any type of social outing with our friends because Lord knows he wouldn't put in the effort to plan that himself.

[146] It wasn't until 2020 that I was no longer that breadwinner and that I was unemployed.

[147] That was the first time in our life together that he had to take care of me. I was beyond sick.

[148] I needed help and I was depressed.

[149] And then when we came out of that, would I still rely on him?

[150] Yeah, because now I'm a breastfeeding mom who works 60 hours a week from home to provide for our family.

[151] It felt like I couldn't win.

[152] After he takes off, you must be fuming at this point.

[153] Oh, I'm fuming.

[154] I sent him a text letting him know that he owed me for all of the money that we had spent that week on therapy, on him getting different things that he needed to get, like his software.

[155] and he also was doing stuff for his job.

[156] And effectively, he drained my savings account in one week.

[157] I let him know that he needed to return all of that money to me because he knew what he was doing and left with me staying at home with no job and I'm six months pregnant.

[158] And now he's drained my savings account.

[159] He started going off on me and be like, how the heck do you expect me to get this money?

[160] You're being ridiculous.

[161] this is when I think I started getting a glimmer of the real hymn, not fully yet.

[162] He would start being a little bit more aggressive in the text messages.

[163] And I started being aggressive because I was fucking pissed.

[164] I just found out that my husband was cheating on me. I was just like, I'm done with you.

[165] This is not a fruitful conversation.

[166] I started panicking, looking at my friends and being like, what the hell do I do?

[167] How do I deal with this?

[168] At that point, I was just kind of like, like a fuck him mentality.

[169] I don't want to talk to him.

[170] I don't want to deal with him.

[171] But I still have a child with this man. And I have another one on the way.

[172] And so we would talk here and there about our daughters.

[173] That was for a few weeks.

[174] And we left it at that.

[175] I started being more open -minded to the idea of maybe trying to work on things.

[176] Because again, I really did love him.

[177] And I wanted our kids to have a life together.

[178] We started talking about maybe considering to get more.

[179] counseling, maybe trying to work through a reconciliation.

[180] And he came to see me one day and talked to me about it.

[181] And he was like, yeah, I don't want to.

[182] And I was like, fuck you.

[183] Whatever.

[184] Like, I'm done with you.

[185] We met numerous times.

[186] And this was how the conversations always went.

[187] He would give me hope that maybe we could fix things and maybe we'd go to counseling.

[188] And then he would turn around and say, just kidding, the next week.

[189] It was such a horrible.

[190] tumultuous season for me. I felt like I never knew where we were.

[191] I kept giving him the power to decide, which I really truly regret because I realize now that should never have been his power in the first place.

[192] His parents are the reason that we had the house, and they are the ones that purchased the home for us.

[193] We were basically renting it from them.

[194] I had messaged his parents the day that I found out that he cheated, and I was like, I can't let Carl keep hurting me like this.

[195] He's cheated on me, and he has a pornography addiction, and he needs help.

[196] I wanted them to hear the truth.

[197] I knew at this point that he wasn't going to tell them.

[198] I get a text message from them saying they're so sorry and that they were disappointed.

[199] The next time I heard from them, they wanted to have a Skype call, and I said, okay.

[200] I figured they wanted to check in on me and make sure that I was okay.

[201] They knew that I had been hospitalized, and I just figured that they were being good people.

[202] people who I thought cared about me and wanted to check in.

[203] But unfortunately, when they called, they were shaming my roommates for being upset with Carl, for confronting Carl in specific ways.

[204] And they were insisting that I allow Carl to stay at my house because it was their house.

[205] And technically, Carl had a right to sleep there because he was listed on the rental agreement.

[206] I was getting numerous, sometimes multiple times a day, text messages from Carl, asking me to let him stay at the house because he had nowhere else to go.

[207] I had graduated from feeling mad to feeling unbelievably empty and depressed.

[208] And it got really scary at this point.

[209] When I was on the phone call with his parents, it became very apparent that they, didn't care about me. They just cared about their son.

[210] I had to remind his parents that I have been more than gracious with him.

[211] I have tried to come up with solutions with him.

[212] I have tried to even suggest places for him to stay.

[213] And he has been unwilling because he is not willing to admit to what he did.

[214] And he doesn't want people to know that.

[215] were separated.

[216] They were like, oh, so he's just being too egotistical or too prideful to even ask other people if he can stay there.

[217] And I was like, yeah, so this isn't on me. And this unfortunately became a theme with his parents.

[218] They became a very big point of contention throughout the rest of this story.

[219] And it's very sad because I did truly love them and I was open and willing to still have a relationship with them outside of Carl.

[220] But a relationship goes both ways and they didn't want that.

[221] After losing my dad at such a young age, I was so excited to have two sets, two people that I could now look up to and I could ask for advice and that care about me and my kids and then for them to make it very clear that they did not give a shit about me or my kids as much as they claim that they do it was all about appearance they didn't check on me in the hospital they didn't ask how my youngest daughter was doing they focused on where their son was going to live and how much money he was sending me and shamed him for sending me any money at all and it became very clear that they never loved me they never cared about me and that was a whole separate loss that I had to grieve in the midst of what I was already dealing with.

[222] I was learning little bits and pieces of new information every few weeks.

[223] Once a month, a new bomb would be dropped on me. New information or something new would come out.

[224] Things like my rent being raised from his parents, or I would learn more information about when the affair happened, how the affair happened.

[225] And I was eight months pregnant and I got a anonymous DM on Instagram.

[226] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[227] I'm Sachi Cole.

[228] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[229] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once a facade falls away.

[230] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[231] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[232] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[233] scam influencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[234] You can listen to scam influencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[235] I'm Dan Taberski.

[236] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[237] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[238] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[239] She's like, I can't.

[240] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[241] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[242] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[243] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[244] Well, you were holding something back.

[245] Intentionally.

[246] Yeah, yeah.

[247] Well, yeah.

[248] No, it's hysteria.

[249] It's all in your head.

[250] It's not physical.

[251] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[252] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[253] Or is it something else entirely?

[254] Something's wrong here.

[255] Something's not right.

[256] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[257] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios.

[258] Hysterical.

[259] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you.

[260] you get your podcasts.

[261] You can binge all episodes of hysterical early and add free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[262] It was from a burner account and it was saying that they saw Carl kissing Madison.

[263] At this point, she was 19.

[264] I asked for more info because I was in shock.

[265] They said that they couldn't give me any more info.

[266] They couldn't give me any more identifiers of what happened because they didn't want to reveal themselves.

[267] I called Carl and my sister and I waited for him to answer, but he was at work, so he didn't pick up.

[268] We started coming up with a plan for how we would navigate this and how we would address it.

[269] And she decided that she was going to call Madison at the same time that I call Carl.

[270] So whenever Carl would call me back, she would call Madison.

[271] Our thinking behind this was if we talked to them, at the same time, they can't corroborate their stories with each other.

[272] He took a break at work and called me and my sister called Madison.

[273] And I walked in the other room.

[274] I asked when the last time that he saw Madison was.

[275] He told me it was at a pool party.

[276] I let my sister know via a note.

[277] He says it was at a pool party.

[278] Then while she's talking on the phone with Madison, she said the same thing.

[279] The last time I saw him, I think, was at a pool party before COVID started.

[280] And she said other things in that conversation that led my sister to believe that she was telling the truth.

[281] When I was talking with Carl, I was obviously upset and I was starting to lose more of that grace that I had been offering him up until that point.

[282] I started getting a little bit more fiery.

[283] And I was letting him know that if I found out under any circumstance, He was exhibiting any type of predatory behavior towards her.

[284] We were going to have a problem.

[285] I made that very clear that I would never, ever, ever be okay with my kids being around a predator.

[286] He swore up and down that nothing happened, that this person was just trying to mess with me. And he even brought up names of people that it could be like, oh, this person at the church really didn't like you.

[287] So that's probably who it was.

[288] I left that conversation trusting him.

[289] Not wanting to, but I felt like I trusted Madison.

[290] And so because she was saying the same thing he was, I was like, okay, it's not true.

[291] I was nine months pregnant and I was having consistent contractions.

[292] I remember it very vividly.

[293] They were eight minutes apart, one minute long.

[294] And I had already gone to the hospital twice.

[295] thinking that it might be time.

[296] I was four centimeters dilated.

[297] The reason I say all this is because I want to really make it clear the state that I was in.

[298] This is two weeks before I would give birth to my second beautiful daughter.

[299] And yes, that's two weeks of consistent contractions.

[300] I know.

[301] Sounds awful.

[302] It was.

[303] I am sitting in my room with my oldest daughter, and we're reading books together, playing in my room quietly, and Piper, Zoe, and Piper's husband barge into my room.

[304] And they look at me and they tell me that my daughter needs to go downstairs with Piper's sister.

[305] I knew instantly that something was wrong.

[306] because in no world would my daughter go with people that they never hang out with or never see and the three people that my daughter actually trusts and loves would stay in the room to talk to me. It had to be bad enough that all three of them had to stay in the room with me. So my gut just sank because I knew instantly that everything was about to change.

[307] My daughter went downstairs and played with my nephews, and Piper's husband started telling me that he went out to lunch with a former youth student.

[308] He explained to me that this youth student reached out to him because they are close, and this youth student really trusted Piper's husband as a youth leader.

[309] He felt like someone that they could trust to talk to about this particular situation that they were going through.

[310] Piper's husband went and was finding out that Carl had in fact been having an affair with Madison and some of the youth students had found out.

[311] This youth student had no idea that she was the one revealing to Piper's husband that this was what was happening.

[312] And when it became apparent, she felt horrible that she was the one.

[313] giving this information to me. When he came home and he was telling me all this, he said that Carl had been talking to certain previous youth students who had found out and he had been doing calls with them to apologize because they were enraged.

[314] They were upset.

[315] They were confused.

[316] Piper's husband was like, why is Carl talking to youth students before he talks to his pregnant wife?

[317] I had no idea.

[318] And yet, these kids that were entrusted to my husband found out before I did.

[319] I immediately called the youth student that met with Piper's husband.

[320] I adore her.

[321] We were close.

[322] And she was so empathetic and so sweet.

[323] And she gave me every ounce of information that she had.

[324] I then contacted Madison's ex -best friend, who apparently had a falling out with Madison specifically because of Carl, and I asked for any information she had.

[325] After that, I called Carl's parents, because it had been made clear to me that they may have known via the conversations that I was having with these other students.

[326] I asked if they knew, and Carl's dad was so heartless.

[327] I'm bawling my eyes out.

[328] I'm in early stages of labor and he was just like, you need to talk to him about that.

[329] Later, I found out that when Carl officially left after I found out that he originally cheated, he had told his parents they knew.

[330] And yet they still didn't say anything for months.

[331] And that was the solidifying factor for me where I was like, I don't trust these people at all.

[332] After I got off the phone with Carl's dad, I texted in a group chat, Carl and Madison, and all I said was, I know, I will be waiting for a phone call from one of you to explain yourselves, since that's the least that I deserve.

[333] A few minutes later, I get a phone call from Carl, and I cannot make this up.

[334] The mask came off in that moment immediately.

[335] I picked up the phone, and the first words out of his mouth were, so this is how this is going to go.

[336] And he said it exactly like that in this brutally heartless tone.

[337] He had zero empathy, zero remorse.

[338] He knew I was in labor, and I had gone to the hospital twice thinking I was about to give birth.

[339] And he did not give a shit.

[340] He had absolutely zero to say in regards to being apologetic.

[341] He just told me that he was going to make sure that he had his kids and that this was going to be a fight if I wanted to make it a fight and that Jesus still loves him.

[342] I remembered going ape shit.

[343] This is the moment I broke.

[344] I lost it.

[345] I don't think I've ever yelled at someone in my life the way that I used.

[346] yelled at this man, but I was just done.

[347] I have no idea who the man I married was, and someone who is capable of potentially grooming a youth student and waiting until she is barely legal to sleep with her is not someone that I want to be involved with, let alone have children with.

[348] I felt so dumbfounded that he could be so cold.

[349] I spent the next almost hour arguing with him and screaming at him and being like, yes, Pastor Carl, please tell me what the Bible says about adultery and how Jesus will forgive you for your mistakes.

[350] Like, please argue that point with me right now because that is what I want to hear.

[351] But yet, you won't just explain to me what the hell even happened.

[352] You won't even give me an apology.

[353] You're shifting blame on to me being cold and callous and claiming that Jesus is going to love you anyway.

[354] It was the most unbelievably horrifying conversation that I've had with someone simply because he was absolutely stone cold.

[355] It was terrifying, to be honest.

[356] And I remember getting off that call and looking at my sister and Piper and Piper's husband and just being like, What the fuck was that?

[357] He decided that we would figure out a co -parenting schedule.

[358] We would figure out what we need to do for the girls and we would focus on them, that we weren't going to discuss our relationship because it was null and void at this point.

[359] And it didn't matter what he did in the past because that already happened.

[360] And it shouldn't affect me anymore.

[361] Not to mention, though, that he wasn't giving me any information.

[362] I didn't know when this relationship started.

[363] I didn't know how it started.

[364] I didn't know how far it went.

[365] I didn't know.

[366] I didn't know anything.

[367] He wasn't giving me any information at all.

[368] And he was treating me like I was crazy for even questioning him and questioning him and questioning who he was and his intentions.

[369] And I'm like, bro, you've been lying to me for the past however many months.

[370] I really look at that moment as the moment I got my voice back because I was so timid to hurt his feelings and make him mad and that he was going to walk away.

[371] At that point, I was like, I don't give a fuck.

[372] because my kids deserve someone who is going to stand up for them and say that they deserve a better dad than this.

[373] They deserve a dad who would never put them in this situation.

[374] They deserve a dad who would never do this to their mom.

[375] They deserve a dad who would never do this to his youth student.

[376] Because at the end of the day, she is also a victim.

[377] And that's wrong.

[378] And he doesn't even want to acknowledge that.

[379] He thought he could just sit there and tell me his plan and that I would just go with it.

[380] I am pacing around my house.

[381] I am pissed beyond all belief.

[382] I'm trying to cope the best that I can.

[383] I'm like violently bouncing on a yoga ball because remember, I'm in labor.

[384] I text my therapist and said, I need to have a session tomorrow.

[385] We were all pissed.

[386] And we tried not to talk about it in front of the kids, but it's very difficult when you were in the middle of raging.

[387] We kept being like, kids go play in the backyard.

[388] We need to have adult conversation.

[389] I was so mad that I couldn't drink alcohol to cope, which was probably a good thing in the long run.

[390] I was so furious.

[391] I was like, there is no way in hell that this man is going to get to be in the room when his daughter is born.

[392] And that also made me pissed for my daughter's sake, because she is literally being born into straight, unadulterated chaos.

[393] And there's nothing I can do about it.

[394] The next day, after I had that phone call with Carl, I had calmed down a little bit.

[395] And I feel like the anger started to subside just a little bit.

[396] I drafted letters.

[397] I wrote one to both Madison and Carl and sent them individually.

[398] They were basically these long text messages, but they were very, very long.

[399] The first one I sent was to Madison.

[400] I took that opportunity to really be honest with her and express what our relationship actually looked like because I'm sure that he painted a very different picture.

[401] But I wanted her to understand how serious I was and how upset I was and the way that I was feeling.

[402] I even straight up told her that I was his sex doll and that he had a pornography addiction.

[403] I didn't expect for her to respond, to be honest.

[404] I sent a message to Carl, and I laid out how I was feeling after such a freaking awful conversation with him.

[405] And I explained how heartless he was when his pregnant wife was literally experiencing contractions and could go into labor at any second.

[406] And the fact that he would talk to me in the way that he did was just disgusting.

[407] And I then listed out all of the boundaries that I would have moving forward until I felt like I could trust him with my kids again, because at that point, I had no idea any information about what his relationship with Madison was when it started.

[408] If it was legal, I laid out, you are not allowed to be alone with Madison.

[409] my children.

[410] You will be supervised by me every single time you see them until I believe that I can trust you and until I have more information on what happened.

[411] After I sent that message, I got a text message from Madison.

[412] And she asked to call me. She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[413] She had been under the influence and then she left him there.

[414] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[415] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[416] What happens next?

[417] Depends on who you ask.

[418] Was it a crime of passion?

[419] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[420] This was clearly an intentional act.

[421] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[422] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[423] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[424] Everyone had an opinion.

[425] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[426] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[427] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[428] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[429] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[430] I was so numb at this point that I didn't really even think about it.

[431] I'd said, sure.

[432] She called me and was crying.

[433] And I remember just starting to sob.

[434] She kept saying she was so sorry and that she had no idea about all of the things that I sent her in the text message and that she wishes she could make things right with me but she knows she can't.

[435] Throughout this conversation, it was obviously uncomfortable.

[436] She was asking some questions.

[437] The one question that really sticks with me and I can literally hear her voice asking me every single day, every single day I think about this conversation.

[438] And she asked me, Does he guilt trip you when you don't want to have sex too?

[439] And my heart sank.

[440] I would never, ever, ever, ever want someone to experience the trauma that I experienced sexually with him.

[441] To know that she is experiencing that when she asked me that question, it confirmed what I already believed to be true, which is that he's going to do the same thing to her.

[442] And I felt disgusted.

[443] She asked me if we could meet in person.

[444] I wanted to.

[445] I wanted to be there for her.

[446] We agreed to meet up.

[447] I got a text message later that night saying that she had a change of heart and she didn't want to meet and that she thinks that it probably wouldn't be the best idea.

[448] But that she's so sorry and that she would not be involved with him anymore and she would not be in my life anymore and that she is done with him.

[449] I respected that and I said, okay, that's fine.

[450] We don't have to meet up.

[451] After I sent that message to her, I noticed that Carl had also messaged me. He was apologizing profusely and saying he's so sorry and he wants to talk with me and he wants to come meet with me in person so he can fully give me the apology I deserve, all of this stuff, right?

[452] So he, he, comes over, he apologizes, and he finally gives me a play by play of what happened.

[453] He walks me through all of my questions and all of the details and tells me that it wasn't physical until the month before I got pregnant, and that when I did get pregnant, and they found out that I got pregnant, it was a really hard time in their relationship.

[454] I remember sitting there being like, what in the actual fuck?

[455] I know the exact night we conceived because we were actively talking about trying to get pregnant again.

[456] And the next day, I had ovulation cramps.

[457] He met her when she was 16, was her youth pastor until she was 18, which is when she stopped coming to the church.

[458] She turned 19 a month after she left our church.

[459] But at this point, realized they had had a Snapchat streak for like a year.

[460] They were talking all the time.

[461] We had already had that conversation about setting boundaries.

[462] And that conversation had happened a few times.

[463] So I don't know what to believe with this man. When we had the conversation about the Snapchat streak, I noticed she was about 17.

[464] I'm distinctly remembering them mentioning that they had a Snapchat streak of a year.

[465] I was like, why would, why would you have a Snapchat streak with your youth student?

[466] Why?

[467] What do you gain from that?

[468] He was like, it just happened.

[469] How?

[470] How does that just happen?

[471] Please explain this to me. It never made sense.

[472] That conversation, while it gave me information, it gave me the facts, it's not like it gave me any closure, because there's no rhyme or reason to why this happened.

[473] He doesn't care.

[474] There was, was no compassion whatsoever.

[475] I truly believe that the only reason that he even came and apologized to me, even via the text originally and then in person, is because she broke up with him after finding out the things that I said.

[476] I was honestly just pissed and I told him, I have to give birth.

[477] I don't give a fuck about you anymore.

[478] I do not care what you want.

[479] It's me time now.

[480] You've had what you want.

[481] It's now time to focus.

[482] It's now time to focus.

[483] on what I want.

[484] And what I want is to give birth, to focus on my kids, and to not even think about you at all until after I give birth.

[485] So I told him, we are no longer going to communicate about anything except for the children until further notice.

[486] Your actions will speak louder than your words.

[487] So start proving that you want to be present and you want to be consistent.

[488] I am mad and extremely pregnant with a toddler.

[489] I'm having legit contractions eight minutes apart for one minute straight for three weeks.

[490] And during that three weeks is when this all unfolded.

[491] I'm going to my doctor twice a week to get cervix exams to check if I'm ready to go to the hospital or not because my body is trying to give birth.

[492] But I think the stress was making it so that I couldn't.

[493] The next thing I know, it's about a week after I find out, the contractions get so unbelievably bad that I knew it was time.

[494] And I gave birth within the hour.

[495] It was an extremely painful birth.

[496] It was unmedicated because we did not have time.

[497] I literally got to the hospital and 15 minutes later, my daughter was born.

[498] It felt like the first time that I was actually genuinely happy.

[499] for a long time I got my daughter here safe in spite of everything and she was perfect the best little baby in the whole world and my roommates were taking care of not just my kid but also my sister's kid because my sister was freaking amazing and left her babies at home so that she could be with me while I was recovering in the hospital.

[500] My best friend Piper was in charge of four children, under five.

[501] God bless her soul.

[502] We're getting like all these funny text messages of all the chaotic things that they're all doing and the trouble that they're getting into at home.

[503] And it was nice for like two days to just breathe and not give a shit about Carl.

[504] we got discharged from the hospital and I went home to introduce my new baby to my oldest baby and to Carl.

[505] Then this whole newborn stage started and it was weird because he's around all the time.

[506] He's around almost every day trying to bond with his daughter.

[507] And I wanted that for him and I wanted that for my daughter.

[508] I didn't want to take that away from her.

[509] Having him around all the time after giving birth was unsettling, to say the least.

[510] I felt like I needed to prove it to him, but more so prove it to myself, that I am not this person that he made me out to be, and that I am strong enough to do this without him.

[511] I tried to be extremely accommodating, but still holding boundaries with him.

[512] I would let him come over to see the girls.

[513] But then I would be like, all right, I need space.

[514] Bye.

[515] I tried really hard to make sure that he could still grow this relationship that he needs to have with his daughter, while also respecting the fact that I cannot stand to be around this man for more than a few hours at a time.

[516] And it's not like my a few day old baby can go away from me when she needs to eat.

[517] A few days after my daughter was born, his parents were coming to town to meet her.

[518] it became very obvious that the expectation was that I would host them.

[519] And this felt weird for a lot of reasons, but I didn't feel like I had a choice.

[520] They showed up at my house and made themselves comfortable.

[521] They brought food for Carl, but none for me. They asked about the labor, but then they would ask Carl how he's doing.

[522] It became very clear that they didn't really care about anything other than what I was giving to them, which was a granddaughter.

[523] And they even made snide judgmental comments at me about my parenting techniques with my oldest daughter, who was going through a lot at the time.

[524] It became so overwhelming that I had to look at Carl after we were driving back from a doctor's appointment for our daughter, and I had to tell him that he had to get his parents away from me, and I needed to set boundaries with them.

[525] It was extremely uncomfortable.

[526] Honestly, just the worst a week to be so freshly postpartum, so unbelievably hormonal while still going through heartbreak, while still grappling with all of the grief and the betrayal that I was feeling.

[527] And then to also have these two people who I felt like did not give a shit about me all up in my house and all up in my space when I just wanted nothing more than to be left alone.

[528] At one point, they came to pick up my oldest daughter and they took her to go have a fun day with them.

[529] And Carl and I were actually seeming to get along and it was amicable.

[530] At one point, his parents came with my daughter to bring her back and his dad was showing me on Carl's phone a picture of my daughter playing at this park and he accidentally swiped too far and showed me a picture of Madison.

[531] Carl's dad immediately flinched and knew he fucked up and they left pretty quickly after that.

[532] And later that night, Carl apologized to me and I was just like, I'm done.

[533] I'm done playing house and pretending like we can be a normal family and you coming over here all the time, like, I need space.

[534] Carl and his parents left.

[535] And I'm assuming his parents told him later that evening.

[536] So then Carl was like, can I come talk to you?

[537] He came back over to talk with me and apologized.

[538] And I was just like, I need space from all of this.

[539] I can't deal with this.

[540] I'm one week postpartum.

[541] And I need to focus on my baby.

[542] I can't focus on your bullshit and your family and your drama anymore.

[543] So we became a little bit more structured.

[544] We had a schedule of when he could hang out with the girls and when he couldn't.

[545] That was very, very helpful for me. Unfortunately, that didn't last long.

[546] After hanging out with the girls on one of the scheduled nights, we were giving them baths, putting the bed.

[547] he randomly looked at me and told me that he regrets everything that he did and he wants me back.

[548] My immediate reaction was, you have to be fucking kidding me. I was truly dumbfounded.

[549] I didn't even know how to take him seriously at this point.

[550] I looked at him and I was like, you're lying.

[551] You're joking.

[552] There's no way that you could put me through all of this and expect me to take you back.

[553] and he went off onto this big long tangent saying all of the things that you would want to hear saying that I was worth fighting for that his family was worth fighting for that he is done with her and that he wants me and he would do whatever it took he would do whatever I needed him to do.

[554] I told him I am not in this space to believe you and if I were to ever even remotely consider even being friends with you, let alone being husband and wife with you, it would take years to get to that point.

[555] And you would have to prove that you're meaning what you say, that you really, truly genuinely want this.

[556] And it's not just because you feel the need to keep retramatizing me. He was like, okay, you got it.

[557] I was like, what's the going to happen if I don't have sex with you immediately?

[558] Are you going to go back to her?

[559] And he was like, of course not.

[560] I found out through this conversation as it unfolded that he hadn't even broken up with Madison yet.

[561] He hadn't even gone to talk to her.

[562] She thought everything was good.

[563] Because at this point, they hadn't broken up.

[564] He snuck his way back in there.

[565] And they were still together.

[566] I was like, okay, so you're telling me that you want to be with me, but you haven't even broken up.

[567] Okay, whatever, bro.

[568] He left and I get a text message later that night and he told me that he was done with Madison, that he went over, he talked to her, it's officially done.

[569] The next day, he was like, I need to go to my parents' house.

[570] Lo and behold, he comes home from his parents' house and he changes his mind.

[571] He doesn't want me. And he shouldn't have said anything.

[572] And it's always like this with him.

[573] It's always this back and forth.

[574] It's always, oops, sorry, I didn't mean it like that.

[575] Or, oops, I don't love you anymore.

[576] Just kidding, I do.

[577] Just kidding, I don't.

[578] It's this back and forth tug a war with me that doesn't make any sense.

[579] When he told me that, I basically said, if you ever change your mind again, I do not want to know.

[580] If you ever decide that you miss me and that you regret what you did, I don't give a shit.

[581] If you ever feel like you feel compelled to hit, on me, do something nice for me. I don't want you to do those things because I know that you're only doing it to manipulate me. I won't let you do it anymore.

[582] After a few weeks, it came out that they were officially back together, Madison and Carl.

[583] He was doing these things to make it obvious to me that they were back together.

[584] And I told him that I wasn't comfortable spending so much time with him when he was constantly doing things to intentionally hurt me. He knew that.

[585] that he was intentionally making it so that I would see pictures of them together by putting it literally on the dashboard of his car and then being like, oh, can you grab this out of my car?

[586] It became very clear, I can't control you and you're going to keep trying to trigger me, so I'm not going to hang out with you anymore.

[587] I sought out a lawyer to get involved to start working on the co -parenting agreement and a divorce agreement.

[588] A while after my youngest was born, he stopped contributing financially, and that was really difficult for me. I was very newly postpartum, and I was also taking care of a toddler.

[589] I was really struggling to figure out what I was going to do.

[590] Thank God for my roommates who stepped in and helped me, and my mom, who stepped up as well.

[591] But it became, a point of contention with us because he decided that I didn't need the money because he was constantly stalking my Instagram story.

[592] And if I ever had something that I purchased for myself or for my business, he would claim that I was careless with my spending.

[593] And so I didn't need the money that he typically would give me. What is your co -parenting relationship like now?

[594] We tolerate each other.

[595] I'm not going to say it's good.

[596] I'm not going to say it's the worst co -parenting.

[597] parenting relationship in the world because I definitely know that there are far worse.

[598] But we don't communicate about anything other than the children.

[599] We keep it very strictly business.

[600] There have definitely been moments where we have gotten in very big arguments.

[601] And I mean very big.

[602] It was bad.

[603] And things have been really rough.

[604] But I try to reel it in as much as I can.

[605] I'm human.

[606] So there are definitely times where I fight back.

[607] I think the best that I can do is focus on my girls.

[608] And I'm hoping to God that they focus on them as well and they claim that that's what they're doing, our relationship is very, very, very minimal.

[609] We only interact at drop -offs and that's it and need to know information.

[610] Have you found that to be beneficial for yourself and your healing process?

[611] Yes, absolutely.

[612] Even if it's just anger that I'm giving him, he feeds off of it and becomes this huge thing.

[613] He takes any opportunity to cross a boundary possible.

[614] I've just had to start expecting that of him.

[615] Even if I tell him not to do something, he's going to do it.

[616] And I have to just expect that of him.

[617] And it's unfortunate that that's the relationship I have to have with my co -parent and the father of my children.

[618] Looking back on everything, I've realized how many red flags that there were.

[619] I think that I really repressed how deeply I felt wounded and traumatized by the way that he treated me especially sexually.

[620] A big part of what I have had to unlearn since then is just because you're a strong person doesn't mean that you are incapable of being hurt or being abused.

[621] A big part of the trauma does come from where we were in our church and a lot of the very, very misogynistic ideologies that I have been raised to believe over the years.

[622] I think that our role in the church and the expectations that the church puts on women made it easier for me to accept the role that he wanted me to play because I think if I hadn't been told those things by the church, I would have been like, oh, hell no, I'm not going to just submit to you and let you injure me repeatedly.

[623] I probably would have had more of a voice, maybe, but because it had been perpetually told to me my whole life that my job as a woman was to satisfy my husband, when my wasn't being satisfied, I let him do whatever he needed to do to make that happen, which included bodily harm to me. And that's not okay.

[624] I really want people to know that if your gut is telling you something is wrong, you probably should listen to it.

[625] Because I think that a long time ago, I knew in my gut that something about our relationship was not right and something was off and I just didn't want to hear it and I didn't want to see it because it was too disgusting to recognize.

[626] I think that while a lot of my codependent traits really came out to play in our relationship in a toxic way and I need to do the work to heal those pieces, I really want people to know that abuse can make, manifest in so many different ways.

[627] And it is not always somebody laying a hand on you.

[628] Something that I've learned about covert narcissism is that you typically don't notice it until it's too late.

[629] And I want people to understand that you could be dealing with a narcissist even if he seems like the best guy in the world.

[630] You could be dealing with somebody who is absolutely horrible and a monster and nobody will believe you.

[631] And I just want you to know that I believe you and that you're not alone.

[632] You deserve to feel validated.

[633] I hope that people will also recognize that we need to be so compassionate to other people because you have literally no idea what is going on.

[634] My life was literally falling apart.

[635] as the world fell apart, and no one had any idea until COVID was over, and it's not even over.

[636] But no one had any idea what I was going through until I made it very clear that I was now single online.

[637] I want to encourage anyone who's listening to be extra kind to those in your life, even if you think they're doing great, because there is a very, very, very, very.

[638] large chance that they're not telling you everything and that they could be hurting.

[639] So try to be kind and offer yourself up to support the people in your life as much as you can and just know that you are not alone, that there are people out there who have been through it and you will get through it too.

[640] Thank you so, so much for sharing your story.

[641] I think you are such a courageous woman.

[642] my pleasure and I truly hope that someone hears this and they're able to see the red flags in their own life.

[643] If this resonates with you or feels like it hits too close to home, I want you to recognize that and seek help.

[644] I am such a better person in the space that I'm in now because I put in the work to become the best mom that I could be, to build my business, to provide for my kids.

[645] I have self -worth now and self -confidence now that I don't think I ever would have had had I stayed in my marriage.

[646] Now I know what I deserve because I'm giving it to myself because I don't need someone else to give it to me. And I just want other people, specifically women, to hear that like you don't need a man to live the life that you want to live.

[647] And if a man is making your life worse, honey, give yourself the life that you deserve because you don't need to stay in that and be treated like shit for the rest of your life when you could give yourself the life that you've been dreaming of this entire time.

[648] Big mood for real.

[649] That's the energy I'm talking about.

[650] Thank you so much.

[651] Thank you.

[652] Thank you so much for listening.

[653] Until next time, stay safe, friends.

[654] Something Was Wrong is a Broken Cycle Media production created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[655] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at Something Was Wrong podcast.

[656] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags.

[657] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[658] Thank you so much.

[659] If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

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