Angela Duckworth

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by a miniature mouse.

[3] Hello, Maximum Dexamom.

[4] Does it scare you when I go, meow?

[5] Because mice are afraid of cats.

[6] Oh.

[7] Meow.

[8] Ew.

[9] Maybe I was a mouse in another life because I, sorry.

[10] I know everyone's going to be mad at me. I do not like cats.

[11] They're not your animal.

[12] You don't even have to say you dislike them.

[13] You just would never own one.

[14] How about that?

[15] But you know what?

[16] I don't like them.

[17] Okay, that's fair too.

[18] Okay.

[19] I got to tell you, we really.

[20] had a blast talking to this guest.

[21] She will remind you a lot of our conversation with Stephen Dubner from Freakonomics, if you remember that conversation.

[22] It has the same meandering facts popping up here and there.

[23] It was really, really fun.

[24] Delicious quality.

[25] And the guest is Angela Duckworth.

[26] Angela is an academic psychologist and science author.

[27] She is the Rosa Lee and Egbert Chang Professor of Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, where she studies grit and self -control.

[28] She won the MacArthur Award, right?

[29] MacArthur Genius Grant.

[30] My goodness.

[31] What an achievement.

[32] She has a couple great books, Grit, the Power of Passion and Perseverance.

[33] She also has a TED Talk of the same name.

[34] And most importantly, she has a new podcast that I'm so excited about with her and Stephen Dubner, called No Stupid Questions.

[35] So, No Stupid Question or Questions?

[36] Questions.

[37] Yeah, questions.

[38] Come on.

[39] No one would say No Stupid Question.

[40] That was a stupid question.

[41] That was a, we just proved there are a stupid questions.

[42] a question.

[43] Please enjoy Angela Duckworth.

[44] Wonderly plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[45] Join Wonderly Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[46] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[47] Oh my God.

[48] You're just as cute in real life, but not real life.

[49] Samezies.

[50] Monica and I were just watching your TED talk and she said, she's so cute.

[51] And I said, oh, you know I'll tell her.

[52] And here we are.

[53] Let me just say, though, that was like the apex of my hair.

[54] Like my hair has never looked better before or since.

[55] I know what they did.

[56] But I was like, seriously, that was like the best hair day.

[57] It was the zenith.

[58] It never happens that way, though.

[59] It's always your worst hair day when you're out there getting filmed.

[60] They had a very good makeup and hair person.

[61] Oh.

[62] Oh, that's good.

[63] Yeah.

[64] Where was that?

[65] Ted did a collaboration with PBS, and I think it was in a theater in Harlem or something.

[66] I think John Legend was the host.

[67] It was like right when he was engaged with Chrissy Teigen.

[68] And yeah, he was so excited.

[69] He was like excited to be engaged.

[70] And anyway, yeah, it was cool.

[71] It was a good little run.

[72] They had like Bill Gates and a bunch of other people.

[73] And I think they only did it that one time.

[74] We just interviewed John Legend and were huge fans of him musically.

[75] I had no idea he went to Penn that he was.

[76] a doogiehouser that he is smarter than all of us that was a real shocker to me i was like great weirdly that parley's into your topic because i think we all believe in the illusion of hyper talent or god -given talent and i guess that's of course what gladwell's book was about which i so much enjoyed outliers yeah which is by the way meta it's an outlier like i think it might be like the most outlier of outliers for non -fiction books in that it did so well in that it did so well it's been i think on the bestseller list for like a collective five years oh wow oh my gosh like 270 weeks or something like that yeah yeah and counting right because it kind of like comes on it comes off so a lot of outliers was about this 10 ,000 hour rule which we can talk about by the way and that scientist just died oh we did last month so like the 10 ,000 hour guy who's not malcolm gladwell but anyway yeah of old age i hope I don't know.

[77] What do you think about 73?

[78] Well, it's not that old.

[79] It's not that old.

[80] It's not that old.

[81] It's not old enough.

[82] But with my family genetics, if I hit 73, I'll feel like it was a big win.

[83] So it's all relative, isn't it?

[84] Your expectations.

[85] It is.

[86] And actually, and it's all short.

[87] So it's like, yeah.

[88] It only gets increasingly shorter.

[89] Did you know that time perspective actually changes as you get older?

[90] You know how like old people say, like, wow, it feels like time is going by faster.

[91] Time perception actually changes across the life.

[92] span, and it does actually feel shorter.

[93] Okay, so I have an armchair theory on why, and I'd love for you to tell me what the real reason is.

[94] My daughter's five.

[95] So this year will be one fifth of her life.

[96] I'm 45.

[97] So this year will be one 45th of my life.

[98] So proportionally, they are getting smaller and smaller relative to your time on Earth.

[99] So they feel smaller and smaller.

[100] Yeah, it's like a ratio thing, right?

[101] Yeah.

[102] What is the real explanation?

[103] So I don't think anybody, like, fully knows you could ask this.

[104] There's a psychologist named Laura Carstinson at Stanford, and I think her theory is that it is like, it has something to do with, maybe this is the same.

[105] Maybe it's different from your theory.

[106] It's like the amount of time there is that you think, of course, you never really know to the finish line.

[107] Yeah.

[108] And as that gets like shorter and shorter somehow that like changes our perception time, although I have to say, I don't have enough.

[109] It's not like as intuitive to me where I'm like, yeah, I get that.

[110] I'm kind of like, oh, hmm, I have to think about that.

[111] Yeah, the only analogy that feels like that makes sense is when you drive to a new location, right?

[112] And it's novel.

[113] And so the ride there feels very, very long, but then the ride back feels quite short because it's not novel.

[114] So I don't think your brain is taking on as much new information.

[115] So there's not actually as much info in the memory.

[116] So the memory itself feels longer and more complete.

[117] Okay, this is related.

[118] I have noticed this even on a run.

[119] I only run the same stupid little circle every day, but it always feels longer going out than coming back.

[120] Agreed.

[121] Yeah.

[122] Do you know what flow is?

[123] Have you talked about flow?

[124] Oh, yeah.

[125] I often amending a state of flow on this show.

[126] Okay, so when you're in flow, some people feel like time goes slower, and some people feel like time flies by.

[127] But this distortion of time is very common to the flow state.

[128] And here's what I think all of this hinges on.

[129] It's what you're paying attention to.

[130] So, like, when you are really in the flow state and you're only paying attention to what you're doing, I can see how, in a way, time flies because you're like, oh, my God, that was two hours.

[131] You weren't paying attention to, like, time passing and, like, what's going on in the world?

[132] You're just doing what you're doing.

[133] I can also see if you're, like, you're, like, you know, when they say athletes can see the stitches of the ball.

[134] Yeah.

[135] It's like you're paying such attention that you're absorbing so much information that in that sense, like, time is slowing down.

[136] But anyway, everything, I think, is about, like, where you pay attention.

[137] and there's something about what you're looking at.

[138] Okay, can I hit you with one more theory?

[139] Okay, so let's say when they get in a car accident, people feel like time slowed down, right?

[140] Mm -hmm.

[141] That's a very common, as I've had that experience.

[142] You were in a car accident?

[143] Oh, I've been in dozens of car accidents and motorcycle accidents and surgeries.

[144] He's a bit of a daredevil.

[145] Yeah, yeah, I race cars, motorcycles.

[146] Oh, my God.

[147] Okay, you go in, sorry.

[148] And then, like, in your experience, time slows down when you, are in an accident.

[149] Yeah.

[150] And of course, I end up talking with other folks that have been an accident.

[151] There seems to be consensus around this.

[152] Okay.

[153] So when you're watching a movie and you see slow motion.

[154] Yeah, like the matrix.

[155] Right.

[156] To get that slow motion, they actually ran the camera at two or three times the speed.

[157] Oh, that makes sense.

[158] They're running it at three times a speed, so it's getting three times as much information.

[159] And then when they play it back at normal speed, that's what slows it down, is it has three times the amount of frames, right?

[160] Yeah.

[161] So I started thinking, oh, that's why your memories feel like time slowed down because soon as you're in a car accident and the adrenaline kicks in, you start taking on three times as much information.

[162] And it's all stored.

[163] And when you play that memory back at what is a normal speed for memories, yet there's three times as much information, it actually feels like it's slow motion.

[164] I am 100 % convinced by that theory.

[165] I really am.

[166] Like, I'm like, yeah, that sounds totally.

[167] right.

[168] Do you think I should publish this?

[169] Probably somebody already.

[170] You know who to ask though?

[171] Here's who you should you should have Danny Condomin on.

[172] Oh my gosh.

[173] So many people have told us that.

[174] Yeah, we're into Danny Connman.

[175] Not yet.

[176] Generally, Adam Grant, who you must know, he's our conduit to everyone interesting.

[177] In psychology?

[178] Well, just kind of in general.

[179] Don't, don't limit him there.

[180] I bet he knows the best mechanic in the world.

[181] Adam Grant knows every person in the world.

[182] And he is so helpful at connecting with those people.

[183] So yeah, we got to get on Danny He comes up all the time in the experienced versus narrative life.

[184] The reason I said you should do Dan Kahneman is that he wrote a book, actually, before Thinking Fast and Slow.

[185] He wrote it in 1976, and it was called Attention and Effort, and he's really interested in attention, and he would be a good person to ask.

[186] But he's writing a new book, and I think he just finished the first full draft, and it's on noise in your judgments, and he's really excited about it.

[187] Does he teach somewhere?

[188] He's at Princeton, technically, but he's like.

[189] technically, you know, it's like living in New York.

[190] Like, I don't know who's actually at Princeton right now.

[191] Do you daydream of that future where you'll be one of those people that's like, you got a position somewhere, but, you know, we all know what it is.

[192] You're just so esteemed that we're like, whatever, man, live at Central Park.

[193] I literally wrote to Danny Cotton.

[194] My last email said, I realized when I read your chapter that I will never be a Danny Conaman.

[195] So I will just have to be an Angela Duckworth.

[196] Like, no, I mean, he's like, I think he's the best living psychologist in the world.

[197] You'd have to figure out how to get him the microphone.

[198] We could send him one.

[199] We'll send him one.

[200] Well, we can figure that out.

[201] Yeah, a microphone for every Nobel laureate.

[202] Every time I interview experts, I am most interested in why they ended up studying what they study.

[203] I think it's as relevant as what they end up producing.

[204] And very related usually, right?

[205] Yes.

[206] You grew up in New Jersey.

[207] I did, South Jersey.

[208] Cherry Hill.

[209] How does South Jersey do?

[210] So there's like the Shishi Suburbs of New York in North Jersey.

[211] And then there's like South Jersey, like Jersey Shore.

[212] Oh, there we go.

[213] I didn't grow up on the Jersey Shore, but South Jersey has, you know, we have wall to wall carpeting and a lot of juiced up meatheads and transams and all that good stuff.

[214] It's very poofy prom dresses and, you know, a lot of gum being sold and chewed in South Jersey.

[215] Okay.

[216] So and now I always circle it back to Monica because Monica has such a unique experience that I'm now very, very into, which is, you know, the first generation experience.

[217] Your parents are both from China, correct?

[218] Yeah, that's correct.

[219] By the way, does that make us first generation or what generation are we?

[220] That's the big question, right?

[221] Your first generation.

[222] It's the first one born here.

[223] Were you born here?

[224] Yes.

[225] So that makes us first generation.

[226] So it means first generation parentheses born here.

[227] And the only, yes.

[228] Are you sure about that or did you just say that?

[229] No, no, I'm sure of it.

[230] He's not sure.

[231] I am sure.

[232] You'll fact check it.

[233] Yeah, I'll fact check.

[234] I'm writing a does.

[235] But I'm going to go 90 % positive on that.

[236] Super Googlable.

[237] Yeah, I mean, I should know that.

[238] So I always got confused whether they're first generation and then I'm second generation, because if I'm first generation, they don't get a name.

[239] They're immigrants.

[240] They're just immigrants, I think.

[241] Oh, immigrants.

[242] Okay, yeah.

[243] So anyway, to answer your question, my parents immigrated from China and I was born in, you know, in the United States.

[244] Well, first of all, with the first generation thing, it gets a little tricky because it's like at what time.

[245] So my mom came when she was six.

[246] So she totally grew up here.

[247] So I feel uncomfortable saying she's not first generation.

[248] Yeah.

[249] Monica's 1 .5 generation because her dad did come here when he was 20.

[250] So I'm like one and a half.

[251] He counts.

[252] Yeah, he counts.

[253] We're counting him.

[254] Now, Monica was in Georgia, a very white suburb, and she was Indian.

[255] And so naturally, she wasn't dying to introduce everyone to her parents or embrace.

[256] Like when food was made, probably a couple days before anyone could come over.

[257] Like lunches that you brought to school?

[258] Did you have to bring smelly lunches to school?

[259] No, I didn't.

[260] Smelly lunches.

[261] Well, that is the fear, right?

[262] That's true.

[263] Here, yes.

[264] We have our own smells, so I know, you know, you know what I'm talking about, right?

[265] Smelly lunches.

[266] Well, I did not.

[267] They were totally, I took peanut butter and jelly, but I was so hyper aware of it.

[268] Like, if my mom made dinner.

[269] And I was so actively like, whatever you're making that has that smelly smell, I'm not eating that.

[270] Right, because you wanted to be American.

[271] Exactly.

[272] Or maybe at least I wanted to be American, so I don't know how you felt.

[273] She'll go a step further.

[274] She wanted to be white.

[275] Well, here's the thing.

[276] I think in at least my immigrant.

[277] family.

[278] When we said we want to be American, we meant white.

[279] Yes.

[280] But obviously, we were American.

[281] But I think we used those terms interchangeably, even though that's not factually accurate.

[282] Of course.

[283] Were you like one of the few?

[284] Like I was, because, you know, there are like these little clusters of immigrant, but like were you like the only Indian girl in your I was not, but I was the only Indian girl who was a cheerleader.

[285] I was really me. Oh, wow.

[286] And why did we do that?

[287] because it was the most American, sorry, slash white thing that you could do.

[288] I wanted to go against stereotyped.

[289] Now with like racial issues being front and center for our culture, which is long overdue, by the way, I realized how non -introspective I've been about my ethnic identity, like to a fault.

[290] And I wonder whether it was like a, you know, my family really tried to assimilate and fit in.

[291] I wanted my mom to buy ice cream sandwiches.

[292] and she like literally made an ice cream sandwich between like two pieces of bread and I remember thinking like wow this is hard yeah I mean which you know and it's not to talk about the fact that 90 % of Asians are lactose intolerance so let's not even getting into the fact that you shouldn't be eating at all which by the way I'm not thinking you know so like that's a weird thing I know and also I don't have that gene that makes you flush when you get hammered yeah so anyway so I know that for some ethnic subgroups and obviously like every culture is heterogeneous but like anyway my family tried to fit in and I especially wanted to fit in so I kind of like didn't think about being like the only Chinese girl in my grade but now that I look back at it like in my high school there was a senior prom there was a junior prom and we had a sophomore cotillion and like every time one of these big dances would come up like it was just assumed that I would go with like the only Asian guy Like, you know, like, there were two, so I got to go to one with, and then there were, like, I got to go with the other.

[293] But, like, you know, now that I look back at it and I'm like, wow, there's something wrong with that.

[294] Is this too much to say?

[295] I think for Monica, too, a lot of it was in the background until we started doing the show two and a half years ago, because it comes up so often.

[296] And we interview so many people, I mean, obviously, most, the majority of experts we interview, it's very eclectic.

[297] It's, it's the UN, you know?

[298] It really is eclectic.

[299] You have wide -ranging tastes.

[300] So it comes up a lot.

[301] And I think Monica's done more exploration of it.

[302] And also having this like dating show she has and how complicated her relationship with boys.

[303] Like it's all for Monica just like at 31.

[304] It's new.

[305] But it's new because it was an active pursuit to distance.

[306] So it wasn't like I just haven't thought about it.

[307] It's like I'm not thinking about that because that's not me because I'm this.

[308] Right.

[309] Right.

[310] I'm not a geek.

[311] Exactly.

[312] I'm not going to be premed.

[313] I guess were you not premed?

[314] Did you reject that too?

[315] No, I was a theater major.

[316] An actress.

[317] I mean, come on.

[318] I couldn't have gone in the other, yeah.

[319] How'd that go with family?

[320] Was that good?

[321] It wasn't the acting.

[322] It was the lack of safety.

[323] It was the lack of safety.

[324] They didn't like want me to do medicine necessarily or anything.

[325] They just wanted me to like open minded.

[326] They are there.

[327] Oh, there.

[328] There's no one I like talking to more than her dad.

[329] Are you all very close?

[330] Like you're, are you like merged family?

[331] I'm sleeping with her mother if that's what you're asking.

[332] That's good.

[333] That's good.

[334] That's one way to get very close.

[335] She really wanted to assimilate.

[336] So.

[337] Yeah, right, she's going to go right there.

[338] The work that I do is on grit and effort, and there have been essays written about how that's racist, right?

[339] And so I've actually had some conversations with the people wrote those essays because I was like, hi, I'd like to talk to you.

[340] I didn't intend this work to be denigrating of any group.

[341] And those conversations I've gotten into, like, what is racial identity?

[342] That's how I sort of started thinking about my own.

[343] Could you make a non -strongman argument out of what they were.

[344] trying to.

[345] So a lot of the research that I've done has been in schools.

[346] And many, but not most, I think, of those schools are charter schools.

[347] First of all, many charter schools, not all, but many are like quite literally 100 % non -white.

[348] I send my daughters to a charter school that's predominantly not white.

[349] Yeah.

[350] Okay.

[351] In, in LA?

[352] Yeah.

[353] I'd say like 70 % of the kids are on assisted lunch and stuff.

[354] Yes.

[355] Wow.

[356] Well, you are very unusual, by the way, though, right?

[357] Don't you think?

[358] Like, your peer group is not like...

[359] I think most of my peers do private school.

[360] I have a chip on my shoulder because I grew up poor and I want them to be able to interact with all people, not just our rich bubbles.

[361] That's good.

[362] And that's not to say I won't change.

[363] If one of them has some extreme learning disability like I had and that requires something, I'll change.

[364] Right.

[365] Or if they're not, if they're not doing well and like you feel like they need some other...

[366] Can I say something really racy?

[367] Yeah.

[368] When I grew up, even though I was doing it.

[369] dyslexic, and I had a really long journey to learning how to read and whatnot.

[370] Once I got a handle on that, and in junior high, I was on the math team and stuff, at any moment, if I would have really dedicated myself, I could have finished in the top 10 % of my anything, okay?

[371] And my wife is the exact same way.

[372] Yeah.

[373] Now, we went to all white schools in the suburbs of Michigan.

[374] Now, my kid goes to this charter school.

[375] They have the big end of year, first grade thing.

[376] You come look at all the pictures on the wall, and they do an essay, right?

[377] And of course we go straight to our daughters, because that's all we care about.

[378] And we're reading it.

[379] Oh, my God, she did a ball.

[380] And then all of a sudden, I just zoom out and I go, oh, hon, look at the rest of the essays.

[381] The rest of the essays looked like they had been typed.

[382] Like, the penmanship was insane.

[383] The grammar was on point.

[384] The spelling was there.

[385] This is in first grade.

[386] Did they have clear theses?

[387] Yes.

[388] And then I looked at the big board where you got stars next to your name and different disciplines, right?

[389] And I noticed, oh, our daughters tied with all the boys and then all the girls have like 80 more stars and I said to my wife you know one aspect of this experiment I had not anticipated is she'll never be in the top 10 % on this road where most these kids are first generation and their parents are fucking pushing them she's probably not going to be in the top 10 % ultimately I decided I guess I don't care if she's in the top 10 % but it was something that deserved to be acknowledged oh that is so interesting so okay I didn't answer your question, which is like the non -strawman argument.

[390] But first, just out of curiosity, like what is the demographic of this school?

[391] I would say it's predominantly Korean.

[392] First generation Korean.

[393] She's going to school with Asians.

[394] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[395] Most of her friends.

[396] She knows Korean words and stuff already.

[397] If 70 % are assisted lunch, that doesn't really add up to the Asian element.

[398] No, poor Asians.

[399] There are poor Asians.

[400] But I wouldn't say the majority.

[401] But Angela's research challenges, on some level, this notion of privilege and opportunity and tutors and whatnot and IQ.

[402] Some of it gets challenged by her work.

[403] So I taught in a high school in San Francisco that was, you know, very, very, like very Asian in its demographics.

[404] And I think the majority of those students were also free and reduced president.

[405] So it's possible.

[406] Okay.

[407] So maybe I should start with what my research says.

[408] Let's do it.

[409] Yeah.

[410] So, and this I think has a lot in common with what people think of like the 10 ,000 hour rule and outliers.

[411] I think that the final common path to human achievement, whether it's creating a great film or writing a great novel or starting a company or solving, you know, a math proof, the final common path is high quality, high quantity effort.

[412] Like I don't think there are ways to do anything great, like literally in anything without a ton of very high quality effort.

[413] So that to me is like my job as a psychologist is to reverse engineer then like, oh, how do you get higher quality and how you get higher quantity?

[414] And it's not to say that these other things that people might talk about matter, like ability or IQ, but I do think that's like the final mile.

[415] Yeah.

[416] That's a claim.

[417] And I don't know if everyone agrees with it.

[418] I don't know if you.

[419] Well, I think it's really relevant that it was something you started immediately observing at 27 when you left the professional world and became a teacher and you were just noticing what scores were.

[420] And that's just an objective outcome of a math problem.

[421] And you were seeing no correlation between IQ and outcome of the tests.

[422] I don't know if there's no correlation because also that was before I was a scientist and I wasn't doing statistics on my data.

[423] But I will just say this, put it this way.

[424] You walk into the classroom as a teacher in September.

[425] And it's very obvious that some kids are picking up that math so easily.

[426] They're like very mathematically able.

[427] Other kids slower.

[428] They need two times or three times or four times to be given an illustration, an example.

[429] So obviously, there are differences in ability.

[430] And there probably are in almost anything you can think of that human beings try to do, skiing, acting, whatever.

[431] So when you're a teacher, you think like, oh, I can predict what will happen in June.

[432] I think this kid who's like, whip it smart is going to be the kid who's at the top.

[433] And this kid who needs a second, third, and fourth explanation, like, you know, maybe they'll be at the bottom.

[434] And I guess the thing that struck me was at the end of the year, when I tallied up the final grades, it's not that, you know, ability didn't have any relationship, but it was surprisingly small.

[435] And what came out that surprised me was how much some of these kids, you know, despite not having like the highest ability, man, they got high quality, high quantity time on task.

[436] And that led to my understanding of achievement generally, you know, beyond a middle school or high school math class, like maybe your ability is different from your motivation.

[437] And maybe we should spend as much time talking to kids like, you know, your own kid's age about like that very fact.

[438] So they don't count themselves out of things too early.

[439] Right.

[440] Okay.

[441] So now I got to circle back just for one second to my first question, which is what do you think it is about your personal, journey that had you even interested in the notion of achievement and success in what are the building blocks of it?

[442] Where you push to succeed?

[443] I'm going to speak about my own family.

[444] I'm not going to try to speak about all Chinese families.

[445] I'm not going to try to speak about Monica's family.

[446] But in my family, you could sum up a billion and a half people, I'm sure.

[447] There's got to be one true statement about them.

[448] They all came from mothers, I guess.

[449] Yeah, right.

[450] No, I'll be a little more specific.

[451] In my family, achievement was hugely important.

[452] I think it's because my dad was a really domineering force in my family.

[453] I don't think my mom cared as much.

[454] Once my dad, we were getting into some kind of heated argument.

[455] This is like when I was a, gosh, I think it was when I decided to become a teacher, like, soon after college.

[456] And he was very disappointed.

[457] So unlike Monica's parents, my parents were not as open -minded.

[458] And they really wanted me to, like, quote -unquote, at least get a Ph .D. And in this argument, my dad said, like.

[459] Couldn't you at least be a senator, like a U .S. Senator, right?

[460] So he had achievement as like front and center.

[461] And he honestly, he would much rather have been, and I asked him once, successful than happy.

[462] Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[463] Which again, getting back to Connman, that doesn't surprise me because that's the narrative self.

[464] And it doesn't, some people would trade the narrative self for the experiential self.

[465] And all of us do at times and not at other times, right?

[466] But it's deeper than that, I think, with immigrants.

[467] because they literally do not know the difference.

[468] To them, one equals the other.

[469] It's one thing.

[470] Yeah, right.

[471] They're like, when you ask them, would you rather be happy or successful?

[472] It's true.

[473] My dad was like, I mean, it took him a while to first process the answer because he was like, happy, successful.

[474] Like, what do you mean?

[475] And then when I was like, you know, happy, like in a good mood, like you're smiling.

[476] Like, you know, it's like you're laughing, whatever.

[477] Successful.

[478] Like, you know, you're famously successful.

[479] And yeah, hands down.

[480] And so he talked a lot about genius.

[481] He would, like, literally debate at the dinner table.

[482] Like, who is the greater genius, like Newton or Einstein?

[483] Oh, I love these debates.

[484] They're really fun.

[485] But it's weird when you're, like, growing up, and that's all you talk about, you know?

[486] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[487] So my dad was really obsessed with achievement.

[488] And he was always talking about, like, I have these very successful cousins.

[489] Like, they're all really successful.

[490] And my dad loved to talk about these cousins.

[491] Anyway, so my dad was always comparing his kids to other people, either dead and historically famous or like alive and just better than us.

[492] So I'm sure that gave me a preoccupation with like, oh, what makes somebody successful?

[493] But by the way, I don't think it's the most important thing.

[494] And can I ask one more question?

[495] Were you ever in doubt of your own intellectual capacity and thought, oh, I can't fulfill this destiny he wants for me because I don't have the goods?

[496] So I never thought of myself as like the smartest person in my elementary school or even maybe even my, I don't even think I thought it was the smartest person in my homeroom, right?

[497] I think that would have been Michelle Rosen.

[498] She was probably smarter than me by far.

[499] So I don't think I ever thought I was dumb.

[500] But I didn't like look around the room and think like, oh, everything comes easily to me. We had a special education program, my public elementary school.

[501] And, you know, as you know, like you can go to special ed because you're, dyslexic but can also go to special ed because you test for gifted and talented.

[502] Oh, okay.

[503] I tested in one year and then I think we moved and they tested me again.

[504] I was like, I was not smart enough.

[505] And then like I think and then I like got back in.

[506] So I was borderline.

[507] So I never thought like, oh, I'm obviously a gifted and talented person.

[508] But I never thought I was stupid.

[509] And I now realize intelligence is something that like the more I study it, the less I understand it.

[510] But one thing I think is very hard to tease apart is intelligence and interest, right?

[511] Like, if you talk to me about something that I am not interested in, I can be, like, genuinely, extremely stupid.

[512] I mean, let's talk about history together and you're like, wow, you're not that bright.

[513] But if we talk about, like, you know, human behavior, which, you know, and when I study things in my domain, everything sticks.

[514] It's like, I'll read an article and I can like remember, like, oh, yeah, that was that paragraph.

[515] Do you know, do you feel that way?

[516] Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I have that.

[517] Angel and I are the same person.

[518] You guys are the same person.

[519] Yeah, I think we might be, yeah.

[520] That's great.

[521] Except I'm not nearly as ironically successful, but that's fine.

[522] What is your, like, do you have a long -term ambition?

[523] Well, it was to be a famous actress.

[524] Comedian.

[525] Comedian.

[526] Well, originally just actress.

[527] Like Kristen Bell?

[528] Yeah, exactly.

[529] So I got, I'm writing shotgun to my dream.

[530] Yeah, you're cool.

[531] I'm close.

[532] But I just mean as far as I also was in school and I was definitely not the smartest person at all, not even close.

[533] And I wasn't even categorizing myself as in the top intelligence level of people.

[534] But also I knew I wasn't dumb.

[535] And then I just was like, eh, it's fine.

[536] I was never evaluated.

[537] Dex, did you think you were smart?

[538] No, I thought I was dumb.

[539] In fact, I was objectively dumb.

[540] Everyone else could read and I could not read.

[541] And then I had one teacher, Mr. Wood, who, realized, recognized I was getting geometry much quicker than the other kids.

[542] And he pulled me aside and said, I'd like you to help the other kids learn geometry.

[543] And I was like, what?

[544] I know more about something.

[545] And then that just was an explosion.

[546] And then I just built on that.

[547] And then I joined the math team.

[548] And then I was like, oh, science is, I'm pretty good at science.

[549] But that was like the turning point.

[550] That was when you started to develop confidence.

[551] A thousand percent.

[552] If Mr. Wood doesn't discover I'm going to.

[553] good at math.

[554] I, you know, who knows if I graduate or anything.

[555] But, you know, I end up going to UCLA and I graduated magna cum laude and I did great.

[556] But it took, I got better and better as I got older.

[557] You know what I'm saying?

[558] I think I had more tools to, to cope with the dyslexia and every other thing.

[559] But great advantages came with the dyslexia.

[560] Just like what you're saying, I can retain.

[561] I know so much of what I learned 20 years ago in college that it shocks me. But again, I was taking it on so much slower than everyone else.

[562] Yeah.

[563] That I feel.

[564] like it's stuck a lot better.

[565] Yeah.

[566] Well, I think that this like complex dance between having some ability and something, right, but also having interest and confidence, right?

[567] Like, you can see how these are a virtuous cycle.

[568] Like, you have a teacher who pushes up your confidence a little bit that pushes up your actual ability.

[569] I think that is why when we say like, oh, you know, how intelligent were you?

[570] It's just, it's very complicated.

[571] And it's like, truly like, right?

[572] The more I study it, the more I'm like, I don't even know what it is.

[573] There are these neuroscience studies that weren't done that long ago.

[574] They scan people's brains while they're in a state of high interest versus low interest.

[575] And like, first of all, when you're in a state of high interest, all the reward activity, like the dopaminergic parts of the brain like light up.

[576] So it's rewarding to be in a state of curiosity and interest.

[577] And they learn better.

[578] So even when you induce curiosity and interest, like people learn better and they remember more.

[579] And this is why I say, like, I can be very dumb about things that.

[580] I don't care about.

[581] And I can be extremely smart about the things that I do.

[582] And this is why when you think about your own kids and they're, you know, like, I'm sure parents think like, oh, wonder how smart they are about this or that.

[583] So much of it.

[584] Like how much is even left over after you say like, yeah, but, you know, this is about how interested they are.

[585] Like, I don't even how, you know what I mean?

[586] Oh, 100%.

[587] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[588] What's up guys?

[589] Guys, it's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[590] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[591] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[592] And I don't mean just friends.

[593] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[594] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[595] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[596] We've all been there.

[597] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pain.

[598] debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[599] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[600] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[601] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[602] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[603] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[604] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[605] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[606] So as you climbed through, you went to Harvard and then you went to Oxford, what was your pattern?

[607] So like you, I went to public schools.

[608] like you, I send my kids to public schools.

[609] One feature of that decision is that when you do go to a school like Harvard, there are kids who went to like Andover.

[610] Sure.

[611] And you sit next to them, you're like, oh my God.

[612] Like, you know, they're like 18, but they like they really, it's almost as if they had already gone to college, right?

[613] Well, the preparatory school really did prepare them for college.

[614] Yeah, maybe that's maybe that's why they come preparatory school.

[615] And I didn't, I went to a very solid, you know, suburban.

[616] I went to like the 16 candles, Jenna kind of high school.

[617] So I learned other life lessons, but not exactly how to thrive at Harvard.

[618] So it was hard for me. I think a lot of people have this crisis, whether it's when you go to college or something, it's like the time you enter a bigger pond than the one you were in before.

[619] And I think that crisis, you resolve in one of two ways, right?

[620] You either just get kind of, you know, destroyed confidence -wise.

[621] Or for me, I was like, I don't know, for some reason, my reaction was like, okay, there are total geniuses here.

[622] There are also people where it's like miles ahead of me. It's like what I said about like not being Danny Kahneman.

[623] I will never be a Danny Kahneman, but that's okay.

[624] I can be an Angela Duckworth.

[625] So I just had some kind of ego defense where I was just like, all right, I'm just going to do my thing.

[626] And I'm going to do it well.

[627] And it might be different.

[628] So when I went to Oxford, I went on a Marshall Scholarship.

[629] And the Marshall Scholarship, like half of the people who get marshals become professors.

[630] I think you have to have like a a three eight even to apply and it's it's very selective and i remember we took the q e2 over it was some like i don't know anniversary year of the scholarship they decided it would be fun to send us over on a boat so i remember the queen the queen elizabeth too yeah yeah okay so wow did you run into john adams no i did it and i i think actually my dad i think told me that when he came to this country he was on the Queen Elizabeth one.

[631] Oh, they probably just called it the Queen Elizabeth.

[632] They probably didn't call it the Queen Elizabeth.

[633] They didn't know there was going to be a sequel.

[634] They would have had to be clairvoyant to do that.

[635] They would have had to be, yes, very forward -minded.

[636] So I remember being on this boat and I remember thinking like it was yet another pond where like it was like the next level of competition, right?

[637] And I was like, oh.

[638] So, you know, many of us in life, if you are successful, you like you get to more and more competitive things, you know, I think maybe what really happened is that like I learned to stop comparing myself, right?

[639] So, like, instead of being like, how big of a fish am I in this pond, how many other fish are there?

[640] Like, what can those other fish do?

[641] I just didn't ask that question anymore.

[642] And I think I did learn that in the college.

[643] I think that's the best.

[644] Yeah.

[645] As I always say, the only person you should be comparing yourself to is previous versions of yourself.

[646] Okay, me too, but do you do, do that?

[647] I do do that.

[648] And you know, I was just telling Monica the other day, generally for the last 16 years, I have liked that comparison.

[649] And just recently, I was watching videos of me when the kids were two years old.

[650] And man, I never put them down.

[651] I was such a good dad.

[652] And I said, Monica, I can't say that I'm better than I was four years ago in at least that capacity.

[653] And it was weird because generally I feel like I'm making progress.

[654] And I don't think I did in that capacity.

[655] It's still better to compare you with past you and like you want to be than to compare you with other people like in your peer group.

[656] And I only up compare, right?

[657] I'd only compare myself to Brad Pitt.

[658] And naturally, I'm going to feel ugly when I do that.

[659] Anyone would.

[660] Upward social comparisons.

[661] Yeah.

[662] That's why social media is so toxic, I think.

[663] Yeah.

[664] Okay.

[665] Now, once you realize there's some other factor going on as far as predicting success, how does one study grit?

[666] Like, how did you take that on?

[667] How do you, you must have to invent metrics and you have to invent ways to measure this thing and define this thing.

[668] So what's that process like?

[669] You know, some people think.

[670] like, oh, you know, you can't measure happiness or you can't measure character or you can't measure grit or like, actually, you can measure anything, but you can't measure anything perfectly.

[671] So how do psychologists like measure honestly any of those things that I just mentioned, extraversion also happiness, all those psychological things?

[672] Most of what we do is really not great.

[673] You make questionnaires and then you have people fill them out.

[674] And questionnaires are just sentences on a page and you show them to people like, you know, I finish whatever I begin, setbacks don't discourage me. And then they rate those sentences like on a scale from like, you know, one to five, like how much they agree with them.

[675] That's kind of like the modern state of technology for most of psychological science, which, you know, admittedly isn't great because people may not be accurate, et cetera.

[676] But that's what I did.

[677] I wrote a grit scale based on my interviews with high achievers.

[678] And I tried to like write down in the scale the things that I heard in these interviews, you know, not only about how they describe themselves, because if I asked you like, oh, you know, acts, how have you become successful?

[679] What do you think?

[680] You would probably, if you have any social intelligence, like, you would be humble and then you would, you would like have caveats.

[681] But if I asked you to describe Brad Pitt, like, why is he so successful?

[682] I mean, other than being physically perfect.

[683] Like, yeah.

[684] And very smart, it seems to me. And he's super interested in life, like architecture.

[685] So I infer from reading Us Weekly, but, you know, you can only get so.

[686] I made my favorite book, his favorite book, because I read that he likes the fountain head the most.

[687] And so I read it.

[688] I'm like, You like the fountainhead?

[689] Are you objectivist?

[690] No, listen.

[691] I haven't read it.

[692] Don't.

[693] Oh, you haven't?

[694] It's a great book.

[695] It's a great book.

[696] It's very well written, actually.

[697] And it's very well written.

[698] And Howard Rourke is the type of figure all male, arrogant males would strive to be, which is they always knew what was right.

[699] And everyone else had to catch up to them.

[700] So when you go away, it's like, they're better.

[701] Yes.

[702] And if they just stay the path and they never deviate and they don't take on new information or compromise that they'll be rewarded greatly in the end for it.

[703] So I can see why it appealed to me. Yeah.

[704] I used to be a libertarian.

[705] I am not anymore, but there are certainly lots of merits to some of her arguments.

[706] Yeah.

[707] Well, so for Monica's benefit, or maybe for, I'm guessing, some of your listeners.

[708] So the Fountainhead, this novel you should describe it as your favorite thing.

[709] But like when I asked like, oh, are you an objectivist?

[710] It's because the novelist, the writer, Ein Rand, it wasn't just a novel.

[711] It wasn't just like, oh, here's a good story to read.

[712] It was a fictional account of Howard work in order to express her philosophy of life.

[713] Of selfishness.

[714] Of selfishness.

[715] I can tell you my own thoughts on it, which is I do believe we can act collectively.

[716] I do believe we can be selfless.

[717] I do believe we can be compassionate.

[718] But I believe that it will start originally by looking out of our own eyeballs and trying to meet our needs first.

[719] I do think humans are innately and inherently selfish.

[720] Now, I think you can acquire tools to make the outcome of you.

[721] your behavior better than that.

[722] But I do believe that selfishness does result in many of our best breakthroughs, many of our best health care options.

[723] Give me an example of how you're selfish.

[724] Oh, well, I was very committed to becoming an actor at the expense of probably being a good friend at times at the expense of being a good partner to my girlfriend at the expense, you know, or let's put it this way.

[725] And I'm honest about it.

[726] I hear my daughter hurt herself in the kitchen right yeah she hurts herself in the kitchen every 25 minutes yeah my first thought is god damn am i going to have to get up and walk over there or is this one going to blow over and i don't have to walk over right so you're listening for like the tone of of the tone of crying and i the first thought is not oh she's hurt my first thought is how it's going to inconvenience me right yeah yeah but then i go i'm a better person than that right get up and go see what's wrong but i what i'm saying is i have to step over my first thought, which is always selfish.

[727] Right.

[728] Okay, how about this?

[729] How about this?

[730] My model of human beings is that you have multiple voices in your head, and I'm not talking about multiple personalities.

[731] I'm like, you have different, like you just said, like the first thing is like, ah, God damn it.

[732] Like I was in the middle of something.

[733] And the second voice is like, gee, I wonder how my daughter's doing?

[734] Like, maybe I should go help her.

[735] So how about this?

[736] Yes, we're selfish.

[737] I mean, the Ayn Rand, like, I read the Fountainhead when I was in high school.

[738] Monica, maybe your high school didn't, you know, whatever.

[739] It was in Georgia.

[740] They were in Robert Lee biographies.

[741] Yes.

[742] Georgia is a different place in New Jersey.

[743] So maybe you didn't.

[744] But like, for a week, I also was objectivist.

[745] I was like, oh, my gosh, this philosophy makes sense.

[746] Like, we're selfish.

[747] If you pursue selfishness, you know, that's actually what makes society great.

[748] That's where all the great artwork comes from.

[749] It's like the bridges, the buildings.

[750] Like Howard works, an architect, by the way, Monica.

[751] It's been theorized.

[752] It's basically based on Frank Lloyd Wright, right?

[753] That that was her architect.

[754] Oh, I didn't know that.

[755] Yeah, I think that he's supposed to loosely be Frank Lloyd Wright.

[756] Oh, who was himself pretty darn selfish.

[757] By all accounts.

[758] He'd say, like, you can't even pick out the furniture in this house.

[759] I will build the furniture for this house I designed because I know what's best.

[760] And then in all of his, you know, romantic and personal relationships, like he was incredibly selfish.

[761] So here's the thing.

[762] after a week of being an objectivist in high school, I was like, oh, wait a second.

[763] This is a complete account.

[764] Like, because there's another part of you and maybe there's a delay.

[765] But like, I do really think young children, even when they are super young, and you probably saw this in your own kids, they have these very moral impulses.

[766] Like most kids, when they see another kid get hurt, like they don't have to be taught.

[767] Like, you should feel bad.

[768] They just do.

[769] And so part of us is deeply altruistic and.

[770] But can I make an argument?

[771] Yes.

[772] We are also a social primate.

[773] Our survival selfishly depends on our ability to be empathic when necessary, sympathetic when necessary, to maintain these relationships that we know we need to survive.

[774] Right.

[775] So you're thinking like these prosocial emotions that are like they're just really instrumental for our survival.

[776] So everything always comes back to like selfishness.

[777] And I don't feel like we're paying a price to acknowledge that.

[778] I go like, okay, yeah, that's how we're hardwired.

[779] Now, let's come up with some cultural layers that make us rise and transcend that.

[780] But I think you've got to start by recognizing people need incentives.

[781] People are going to try to make themselves feel comfortable.

[782] Right, they're going to try to make themselves better off.

[783] What's that Adam Smith, like, hypothetical?

[784] Like, most of us would rather 10 ,000 people, you know, die in another country than, like, us lose our little finger.

[785] So, yeah, I mean, you can make all these, like, philosophical arguments.

[786] But I will say this, like, after that week of being in a job, where, you know, like, the strong view is don't listen to the voice in your head that says, oh, have sympathy for this, you know, like that that's not great.

[787] No, no. Like week two, I was like, that's not a great philosophy.

[788] That's repugnant.

[789] Yeah.

[790] And it also undercuts the notion that 99 .9 % of the people on planned earth aren't Frank Lloyd right.

[791] So if we are all behaving like we're Frank Lloyd right, but we never design a great house, we've paid this huge price for really no reward.

[792] are the people that are really great and I don't just mean like rich and successful in Hollywood but just like the people that you maybe artistically respect the most are they you know in that sense narcissistic are they like so self -absorbed and like always convince that they're right or not no the ones that I really admire and look up to are like amazing collaborators and I think it's what ends up sustaining their career long beyond after they've given you their point of view that you can only ride on that for so long before you need to to start collaborating right for inspiration but the thing i will agree with her on though is that i do think that when we assume everyone's capable of nothing we will get that result so she was a very big proponent of expecting a ton out of people yes and i do believe in that i believe people rise to the the expectation you set for them yes that i would also agree with and i think have you guys talked about the placebo effect yet yeah yeah in different contexts usually just medically speaking just in general, the placebo effect is real.

[793] It's not not real.

[794] It is.

[795] It's like shockingly huge.

[796] Some people have studies where they're like, oh, I looked at all these like studies and I don't think it's real.

[797] But I think for the vast majority of physicians, they would say it's real.

[798] Also in therapy, which I, you know, I don't know about Monica.

[799] I've been to therapy.

[800] I think.

[801] Oh, yeah.

[802] We're a big proponents of therapy on the show.

[803] We're all thumbs up on therapy.

[804] But some theorists think that therapy is a placebo.

[805] Oh.

[806] And so like what do they mean by that?

[807] I think some.

[808] It's certainly not all.

[809] Psychotherapists would argue that what you're doing as a psychotherapist is you're giving people a strong expectation that things are going to get better and that they're in control.

[810] And that is, you know, arguably what the placebo effect is that you think something's going to happen.

[811] And then, you know, in one way or another, through your behavior.

[812] Well, and that's to me what's still on the frontier, which is so exciting is we don't actually then understand the metaphysical part of imagining your death.

[813] and then arriving there.

[814] There is some very weird boogabuga stuff going on with what you think you can do and then somehow magically.

[815] I bet you've thought about this.

[816] Like the kind of like Napoleon Hill like, you know, like say the future out loud.

[817] Like, you know, make it a real.

[818] Like what do you I've found that when my identity was I'm someone who protects people, magically, I was in situations all the time where someone needed rescuing.

[819] Yeah.

[820] And my wife would even tell you, I would run into people, like I'd run into a guy screaming at a woman on a stoplight and I get involved or at a grocery store.

[821] Yes, I get in the mix.

[822] It's very dangerous, yeah.

[823] And so, well, thank you.

[824] So my wife finally said, you know, this thing you do where you think you're protecting people, the result of it is I feel more dangerous.

[825] I feel scared whenever I don't know what you're going to get into and I feel scared.

[826] So it's having the opposite outcome is you think it is.

[827] And then once I said, okay, wow, that's new information and shocking and the opposite outcome I wanted.

[828] I said I can no longer make that a cornerstone of my identity.

[829] And then lo and fucking behold, I don't ever see anything anymore.

[830] I haven't had to intervene with, you know, in a long time.

[831] Yeah, you're not seeing all these like victims everywhere.

[832] Well, that's confirmation bias too.

[833] You're just not receiving the information to confirm your preexisting idea.

[834] Yeah, okay.

[835] So confirmation bias and the SEPA effect have that in common, which is like, Whatever it is that you hypothesize is true, you selectively attend to that.

[836] So here's what I, you know, when we're talking about attention and what we're like, this is why attention is so fascinating.

[837] Everybody knows attention is limited.

[838] We're like, oh, I'm paying attention to you.

[839] I'm not paying attention, you know, whatever, the clock ticking, you know, the tree outside my window, the clouds in the sky.

[840] Yeah, there's a million things I can be paying attention to.

[841] But here's the point that I don't think is obvious.

[842] Our attention is so selective that it's as if we're.

[843] we're seeing like a pinprick of light and everything else is total darkness.

[844] Oh.

[845] Because then that makes you think like, you know, if you have the mindset of somebody who's a rescuer, then like your little tiny little pen light just like, you know, searches reality, which is vast and like looks for all the details that make you, and then as soon as you're like not thinking that, you know, that all goes black and then you're got your little penlight on something else.

[846] And it just makes you realize how subjective and maybe not arbitrary, but just how limited human beings are able to, like, really process, like, the real world.

[847] Yes, and that you are, you are constantly in search of confirming your narrative, right?

[848] So are you married?

[849] I am married to a guy named Jason for, like, 20 -something years.

[850] Yeah.

[851] I got a hunch he's a catch just based on chatting with you.

[852] Yeah, he's really cute, actually.

[853] Okay, good, good.

[854] Well, I have to imagine that being married, so my wife will go through a spell where I'm not helpful, okay?

[855] that sounds like you go through a spell of just basically not being well i have my own narrative about her but i'm going to just bless her so she'll have a story where i'm not helpful so naturally she sees the three times in the day i was not helpful which i am not i am often not helpful yeah and she'll like zero in on them yes i'm often helpful though i might even be more helpful than i'm not helpful but i guarantee she'll miss those eight times i'm helpful because she's not looking to confirm that story about me she's not a going around town saying Dax is the most helpful spouse someone could have, so she doesn't need to confirm that.

[856] Do you do the three blessings exercise?

[857] No, tell me that.

[858] Okay, it also goes by a less religious term, which is the three good things, but you can call it what you want.

[859] Here is how it works.

[860] You think of three things in your life that you're grateful for, and they can be anything.

[861] Like, I'm so glad I've got an amazing life partner.

[862] I had a really ripe avocado today.

[863] and I didn't trip when I was running, but I could have.

[864] Like, those are three good things.

[865] It's like the most reliable, they're called these positive psychology exercises because it makes people happy.

[866] Yeah.

[867] And it does so in a way that's like very sustained.

[868] So the reason I bring this up is that like if you are starting to be in a bad way with your wife or husband, which I, you know, we all do.

[869] We've a long marriage.

[870] It's happened, right?

[871] I think what Monica is saying is exactly right, you have to get to this confirmation bias of like, there you go again.

[872] And like, I hate it when you do it.

[873] But what this three blessings exercise does is it rests your attention away from the negative, which by the way, we all have a bias toward negative events like human nature.

[874] You were just talking about survival.

[875] We are biased to look at threats and bad things.

[876] And it just forces you to look at good things.

[877] And so when I get out of bed in the morning, three good things, it takes, I don't know, what, 15 seconds.

[878] And it just draws your attention away from the things that, you know, could otherwise just ruminate about.

[879] I love that.

[880] You should try it.

[881] Going back to grit, I just want to hear what's on the questionnaire.

[882] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[883] I'm sorry.

[884] This is a compliment to you.

[885] You're so interesting, you know, about so many different topics that it's hard to stay.

[886] I'm not surprised you're doing a podcast with Stephen Dubner, because you guys both have this ability.

[887] We can just talk and talk and talk about a hundred million topics.

[888] I think that's our whole.

[889] You guys have a guest.

[890] We just talk to each other.

[891] That's so fun.

[892] Yeah.

[893] Okay.

[894] There's two halves of grit.

[895] The passion part is not just feeling intensely about like something that you love, but really what I've identified about the high achievers that I study is that they have a kind of long view.

[896] They stay loyal to the same, you know, general direction of interest over years.

[897] So the opposite of this would be like passion that's like, oh, this year I want to be a, you know, doctor and then you come back and next year they want to be an architect and then they've decided to become a singer, right?

[898] But gritty people are like, I am fascinated by human nature.

[899] and then you come back in a year and they're still fascinated.

[900] Like, there's something that points them the same direction.

[901] So there's a bunch of questions that are basically about that.

[902] So how do you guys rate on that?

[903] Like how much of a through line is there to the kinds of things that, you know, you're working on and that you find engaging?

[904] Well, what year are you here in L .A.?

[905] Close to 10.

[906] 10.

[907] Yeah, so Monica's stuck with this for 10 years, and I've stuck with it for 25 years.

[908] In 10 of those years, I didn't make one penny as an actor.

[909] just kept doing it with the personal motto of, I'd rather fail at this than succeed at something I don't care about.

[910] Because for you, there was like not anything that was like close to it as something that you would really want to do.

[911] Yeah.

[912] Interesting.

[913] Yeah.

[914] Yeah, not a quitter.

[915] But I will add, I've also been flexible and willing to embrace things that present themselves that are off my trajectory.

[916] Okay, example.

[917] Give me an example.

[918] Give me an example.

[919] example.

[920] My singular goal was to be Adam Sandler.

[921] I want to be a huge movie star community.

[922] So you had that actually as like an explicit goal for a while.

[923] It was for a while and I knew the playbook and then at a certain point it became very obvious.

[924] I was not going to reach that goal.

[925] That was not going to happen to me. I had many shots at it.

[926] Well, I had many shots at it.

[927] Well, no, because you can't be Adam Sandler.

[928] You're not Adam Sandler.

[929] So that goal was not an achievable goal in the first place.

[930] So of course you didn't achieve it that you couldn't achieve it, just like you can't be Danny Kahneman.

[931] Those people are their own people.

[932] I agree with you.

[933] So you couldn't be that.

[934] You still.

[935] But I had to listen to who I was if I wasn't Adam Sandler, I guess.

[936] I had to get off of that goal.

[937] What was the new goal after you were like, oh, I kept the Adamson.

[938] What replaced that?

[939] Writer director.

[940] Which is still what Adam Sandler is, by the way.

[941] Well, he's not a director and he's not really a writer.

[942] No, but my point is your goal never changed your ego changed but the whole time you were trying to be successful at this field yeah yeah yeah so human goals are hierarchical in that like whenever i say like okay i got myself a coke like why did i get myself a coke well because i was thirsty like well why do you need to quench your thirst it's like well because you know i want to be hydrated like it's like hierarchical in that every goal serves another goal until you get to the top when there's like it's an end in itself right so i guess i wonder These goals that you had, like, I want to be an Adam Sandler, I want to be like a great writer -director.

[943] Was there a goal above that?

[944] Like if I said, why would you say there is no why?

[945] It's just an end.

[946] Or is there something deeper?

[947] Like, I want to like entertain people.

[948] I want to be a great entertainer.

[949] Like, is there a more abstract, higher level goal that you could articulate?

[950] Yeah, there was two.

[951] There was the ego.

[952] I want to be recognized in this business as having been very successful.

[953] And then there was the experiential.

[954] If I'm the director and writer, I get to work with exactly who I want and I love to collaborate and I love process when I'm with the people I respect and like.

[955] So there was this very real and I'd say earnest and admirable motivation to just work with the people I love because the experience is so fun and the great.

[956] Wouldn't you say that this podcast serves the same goals?

[957] Like your ego needs.

[958] Perhaps I want to work with the people that I want to work with who are really great and fun.

[959] I might be forcing this.

[960] No, no, no, no, you're not.

[961] You're not.

[962] You're dead on because I am blown away that I get to talk with all these people that I read their books and I'm obsessed with their thoughts.

[963] So yes, it is.

[964] The pure part of why I wanted to make movies is almost entirely present in this.

[965] So my theory of really gritty people and when I talk about like passion that extends in time, it's not that like I come back and I'm like, well, if you're not a podcaster in 10 years, then you're not gritty.

[966] It's more like that higher level abstract goal, which by the way, I don't find that not everyone, has like articulated it verbally and like written it down sometimes it's like almost unconscious but there is something that points in the same direction and the reason I think that's part of achievement is that you know it really does take a lot of quantity and a lot of quality to do anything and when people change directions over and over again which a lot of people do in life there's nothing morally wrong with it but I don't think they they get close to greatness because they keep starting over yeah and the other half of grit if Monica asked like about the grit scale, the other half of the questions are about perseverance.

[967] So, so once you are pointing the same direction, how hard are you working, right?

[968] Are you resilient?

[969] Do you are, you know, one of the questions on the scale is like, I am a hard worker.

[970] Another one is I finish what I begin.

[971] I have a bias to completion.

[972] Yeah.

[973] So I think that probably is true both of you.

[974] Well, no, you know what I was going to say as you were describing that I was like, oh, that's great.

[975] Because the first part of your questionnaire, I think favors me. And then the second part I really think favors Monica.

[976] Well, I think the first part also favors me because I have, I think just the goal of personal exploration.

[977] Yeah, big time.

[978] Oh, is that your, is that your top level goal?

[979] I think so.

[980] And I do think that's a through line and everything I do and everything I've done and also accomplishing challenging things for myself.

[981] So like even with cheerleading, like I couldn't do a back tuck and I like pushed and pushed and push and that was the sole goal.

[982] And then I did that, you know, and so transcending what I thought was a limit.

[983] Yeah.

[984] is also a overarching goal, I think, for me. How confident are you, like, if I interviewed you when you're 42, that you would be, like, anywhere close to as successful as these, like, people that you happen to be riding shotgun with?

[985] Like, do you think you're going to be, like, really, really successful?

[986] Yeah.

[987] I do, too.

[988] Monica's on the show.

[989] People came to know her on this show.

[990] She had her own show that has nothing to do with me on our platform, and it's just as big as the show.

[991] So she already did, and her show, that didn't involve me. What's your show?

[992] I'm sorry that I should know.

[993] By the way, it wasn't, didn't involve him.

[994] It's still under the armchair expert umbrella.

[995] What do you mean?

[996] It's called Monica and Jess love boys.

[997] It has nothing to do with me. It's their dating life.

[998] Thank you.

[999] But it is under the armchair umbrella.

[1000] You're on episodes.

[1001] You produce it.

[1002] Whatever.

[1003] You're being dumb.

[1004] But it's all part of the same world.

[1005] But it was my show with our friend Jess.

[1006] And it was about our dating lives.

[1007] But really, it was about our vulnerability.

[1008] Yes.

[1009] And we had relationship experts on.

[1010] Wait, is this in the past 10?

[1011] Is it not late?

[1012] Yeah, it was a 10 episode thing.

[1013] We might do another season at some point, but we did like a 10 episode run.

[1014] It ended like three months ago.

[1015] Let me just add with the really, the fun premise of it is Jess has fucked every single person he's ever looked at.

[1016] And he's gay.

[1017] And Monica's never had a boyfriend.

[1018] Oh, Jess is a guy.

[1019] Yes.

[1020] And so you have two people who are not currently where they ideally thought they would be or want to be.

[1021] And they have opposite versions of why they're in that spot.

[1022] And then they just earnestly set out to explore why.

[1023] And Esther Perel comes on and tells.

[1024] Again, couldn't have been more of a personal exploration podcast.

[1025] But yeah, we had all these experts on who we talked about relationships.

[1026] And then they gave us challenges at the end of each episode that we had to complete by the following.

[1027] Oh, so it was like reality TV.

[1028] It's fantastic.

[1029] But with elevated like Esther Porell's on and, you know, Dr. Drew and all these great people who know about everything.

[1030] So you think that she'll be successful because she's like.

[1031] She just bought a house across the street from my house.

[1032] So I think she, yeah, I think she's like that.

[1033] That's what I was going to say.

[1034] It's a kind of weird question to answer.

[1035] And this is maybe my own ego and my own arrogance.

[1036] But I also know my place in their world.

[1037] Yeah.

[1038] I know what I've given.

[1039] Big time.

[1040] Like I sort of had this realization recently when talking to my therapist, placebo effect.

[1041] And we were talking about, I was probably bitching about some work thing.

[1042] And she was like, well, you need to remember sometimes because I give them our relationship, as we've said earlier, he's fucking my mom.

[1043] It's all very complicated.

[1044] It's very complicated.

[1045] But the three of us have a very milkshake blender relationship.

[1046] We're all in each other's lives 24 -7.

[1047] And also they have more power than me. They're my employers.

[1048] And I was talking to my therapist about this.

[1049] And she was like, but you need to remember that you're an incredibly capable person who would be successful at anything you did.

[1050] You've given them your career.

[1051] You could give anyone your career.

[1052] Yes, right.

[1053] In other words, you do have power.

[1054] Yeah.

[1055] What's her point?

[1056] Yeah.

[1057] Like you're offering something too.

[1058] You forget that.

[1059] She's not exaggerating.

[1060] And I don't say this lightly.

[1061] She and I would have both been canceled for much different reasons without Monica in the mix.

[1062] That's for real.

[1063] So she's your super ego.

[1064] Yeah, she's a super ego big time.

[1065] I'm the id of the family.

[1066] Kristen's kind of in the middle.

[1067] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1068] She could be the ego.

[1069] And it's a good thing, right?

[1070] Thank you for the free session.

[1071] I know.

[1072] By the way.

[1073] I'm not clinical.

[1074] I'm like just asking as a researcher.

[1075] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[1076] Recognizing the components of grit, I do want you to tell me, and I know it's very nebulous, how we induce grit into our kids.

[1077] So I always think, God, I almost hope one of my kids is dyslexic because I feel like that ended up being the greatest thing that ever happened to me in many ways.

[1078] Do you ever step back even another 20 ,000 feet up and say, what the fuck is success and who gives a shit?

[1079] And why am I even trying to figure out the things that could result in it?

[1080] And is it even worth pursuing?

[1081] And is it just a product of capitalism?

[1082] And are we so brainwashed by our society that we think success is worth sacrificing for?

[1083] I would say fulfillment is a great goal.

[1084] Fulfillment is a great goal.

[1085] And I don't think achievement is synonymous with fulfillment.

[1086] But I think it's part of it, right?

[1087] Yeah.

[1088] I think human beings are all ambitious.

[1089] You know, when I was growing up, I thought, like, I don't know, maybe like 5 % of people are ambitious and like 95 % are.

[1090] I think everyone's ambitious.

[1091] I think the drive to do something with your very short time on this planet is, is universal.

[1092] So I'm not like backing off on, you know, trying to study human achievement, reverse engineer it and help people become more successful.

[1093] But it's not the same thing as fulfillment because fulfillment is more than that.

[1094] So I think there's two other things that are different from achieving your goals.

[1095] And they're very important.

[1096] Honestly, I'm just going to say, like, I hope for my own kids and myself that why not try to do all three.

[1097] So probably the most important thing is relationships.

[1098] I think when people are really unhappy, it's almost always because they are lonely or they don't feel like they belong.

[1099] And even Maslow, when he wrote about the hierarchy of needs, said that, you know, to some extent this hierarchy isn't, and by the way, he never used a triangle.

[1100] It's like just our own interpretation.

[1101] So it's like, you know, that we have multiple needs.

[1102] And he even said for many of us, like, you know, we would rather have love than something to eat.

[1103] So anyway, I think we have social relationship needs, like interpersonal needs.

[1104] I would call those like, you know, we need strengths of heart to, like, fulfill that part of ourselves.

[1105] The second thing is that's different from that and is also not the same thing as achieving goals.

[1106] There's a three -part checklist.

[1107] I said achieving goals is important, but also relationships.

[1108] And third thing is, I think, like, imagination and creativity, basically the life of the mind, I think for a lot of us, it's like feeling like you have control over, like, what you think about and you have choice in life, like you have autonomy.

[1109] If I have these two teenage girls who grow up and they are.

[1110] are achieving goals, yeah.

[1111] But they're also like in really positive relationships, like with other people and also like society, which they have an obligation to help make better.

[1112] And then they have like real autonomy and like an imagination and like they're intellectually open -minded.

[1113] That's really what I think thriving is.

[1114] And that's why all parents, I hope, don't just think about grit and like delay of gratification because like that's only one part and probably the least important part of thriving.

[1115] Well, but I would argue that grit is also required in self -exploration in pursuing emotional goals and pursuing spirituality.

[1116] And relationships.

[1117] I mean, these are very like people give up on relationships really easy.

[1118] People give up on themselves really easy.

[1119] They set New Year's resolutions.

[1120] And then two months later, they don't think they can do it.

[1121] You know, so grit, I do think can apply to the other areas of our life that have nothing to do with capitalism.

[1122] Yeah, no, that's true.

[1123] And I think there are these kids who grow up.

[1124] And maybe you feel this way about like the people that you really like to collaborate with, including Monica.

[1125] Like they are all of those things that I just described.

[1126] It's like they're getting stuff done, but they're such great people and they like, you know, they're honest and they like really empathic people.

[1127] But they're also creative and imaginative and open minded.

[1128] And I don't think it's a coincidence that in my data, I find that these things are really correlated because I think when you are raised in a challenging but supportive family and society, honestly, these things are weaving together, braiding together, reinforcing each other.

[1129] And that's what I think parents are looking for.

[1130] By the way, the opposite is also possible.

[1131] When kids are not in a supportive and challenging circumstance, you can have the development of none of those things.

[1132] Is there any quick tips for grit?

[1133] I think you should be a role model.

[1134] I mean, an intentional role model.

[1135] For example, like a lot of us are talking about race in this country.

[1136] If you say one thing at the dinner table about race, And your kids watch you interact with people of other races and, like, they see another value system.

[1137] Like, you know, you say one thing to another.

[1138] So when I say, like, you should be an intentional role model is I think you should be reflective and you should just understand that you're modeling.

[1139] I think understanding that, like, your kids are watching you all the time.

[1140] You're right.

[1141] If they see you give up on every diet, they see you give up on household chores.

[1142] If they see you calling sick to work, if they see all these things, they know.

[1143] They know.

[1144] And like, when I wrote great, it.

[1145] Like my kids were younger and they saw me cry a lot.

[1146] Well, I mean, they saw me say that I was going to give up and like go to bed.

[1147] But when they woke up the next morning, Mommy was at the computer trying to write her book again.

[1148] And I think that was really important.

[1149] So they saw, they didn't see perfection.

[1150] They saw vulnerability.

[1151] But they also saw like, oh, she got back up again.

[1152] I guess that's how it works.

[1153] So yeah, the quick tip is modeling.

[1154] I mean, really, those that like, so be a role model of all the things you want.

[1155] You want them to be kind.

[1156] You want them to be forgiving, be forgiving.

[1157] You want them to be gritty, be gritty.

[1158] But the supportive and demanding thing looks like this, especially for kids like yours who have, you know, parents who are privileged, right?

[1159] Yeah.

[1160] Like, okay, so you're probably very supportive, is my guess.

[1161] You're warm, you respect their opinion, you know, you provide for them.

[1162] But the demanding part is, and I think this is hard for all parents, but sometimes you be very hard for parents or privilege, they have to be asked to do things that they can't yet do.

[1163] Like, if you raise a kid who's never asked to do things that they can't yet do, then they will never grow.

[1164] And so I think that is a challenge for a lot of connected, able parents.

[1165] You're right.

[1166] A lot of us think, like, somehow through osmosis, us preparing their meal every single time they're hungry, that they're going to somehow magically know how to prepare their meal.

[1167] It's like, well, why?

[1168] When would they do that?

[1169] Why would they do that?

[1170] Yeah.

[1171] I don't believe in telling your kids, they're great, I believe in providing opportunities that they can, they can discover they're great.

[1172] They can discover it.

[1173] Right.

[1174] Yes.

[1175] Okay, as they get older, I would just recommend outsourcing.

[1176] As they get older, I think that, well, it's just that I think that like being the the person to be like structuring things for them to do that are always challenging like, you know, just beyond, just beyond, like just an inch beyond what they can do is like what great coaches do.

[1177] Like if they sign up for a team, you know, if they do.

[1178] like some other activity in school, like a great teacher.

[1179] But I think it's very hard to, like, I was not very good at this.

[1180] So I just outsourced it.

[1181] Like, you know, I was like just took my daughter to ballet class, right?

[1182] And right.

[1183] That's why parents sign up kids for all these activities.

[1184] It's like you're outsourcing supportive, but demanding adult relationships.

[1185] Well, yes.

[1186] Oh my God.

[1187] So this couldn't be more in what's going on currently, right?

[1188] So we just found out LAUSD is shut down for fall.

[1189] Remote for the fall, right?

[1190] Yes.

[1191] And we just did two months of zoom okay um i am i'm a zero at it like out of 10 i'm a zero and my wife is infinitely better at it than me but she's a six at best right so i said look man we have the resources i'm going to hire a teacher to do this this year yes that is a great idea right i'm like because they don't listen to us they're not going to they're never going to it's going to hurt them it hurts us and we're in a position to do it.

[1192] So why wouldn't we just get a fucking professional in the mix?

[1193] Yeah, I would say, like, get a professional if you can.

[1194] And here's an idea.

[1195] There are a lot of college students who are thrilled that they too are supposed to be doing normal.

[1196] And honestly, I think they're, you know, you know, when you are 19 and you're with like a six year old or seven year old, I think they're sometimes so much better at it.

[1197] They're like, you'll be fine.

[1198] It's like, I know you're having a tantrum.

[1199] You know, you'll be fine.

[1200] Like, they're just better.

[1201] None of my kids.

[1202] failures are running through their identity filter where their failure is an extension of my incompetence.

[1203] Your failure, your ego.

[1204] Yes, there's too much at stake in the whole scenario.

[1205] That's why I say to outsource it.

[1206] And I do think outsourcing the education of your young daughters to like a gap your college student.

[1207] Like you take that suggestion back and you guys can decide, but I think it's a pretty good one.

[1208] I like you.

[1209] What is the name of your new podcast or is it even new?

[1210] No stupid questions.

[1211] And everyone loved Dubner, so we put you two together.

[1212] And I can't imagine why anyone would not go.

[1213] He's a great guy.

[1214] He's mostly why I'm doing it.

[1215] I'm like, okay, I'll talk to you every week.

[1216] That sounds good.

[1217] So it's once a week.

[1218] Apparently, I was like, oh, when does a season end?

[1219] And he was like, what do you mean?

[1220] I was like, well, you know, like podcasts come in seasons, right?

[1221] And he was like, no, this is a weekly podcast.

[1222] I literally didn't know that until very recently.

[1223] But now I know.

[1224] All right.

[1225] Well, we're in love with you.

[1226] And we're going to talk to you again.

[1227] Thank you.

[1228] It's been a pleasure, and I will see you soon.

[1229] Okay.

[1230] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1231] Welcome, welcome, welcome.

[1232] To the fact check.

[1233] Hi.

[1234] How you doing?

[1235] Ray, I just had a matcha.

[1236] You had like half a macho, let's be honest.

[1237] And you've been having half a macha since we got here at 10 a .m. And it's 2 .13 p .m. Now I'm past, I can't drink anymore.

[1238] Well, I can't because now it's too close to the evening.

[1239] I love what a caffeine lightweight you are.

[1240] Yeah.

[1241] I mean, I can't drink any caffeine except macha.

[1242] And even still, sometimes it's too much.

[1243] It's just too much.

[1244] Yeah.

[1245] Yeah.

[1246] I get a go little bonkers.

[1247] But as I was saying, and this is an update.

[1248] Oh, good.

[1249] So I've been on these antidepressants for almost a month now, at least three weeks.

[1250] and I think they're doing a lot of things I want them to do.

[1251] Yeah.

[1252] I feel much less irritable.

[1253] I'd say, I mean, it's dangerous to say I noticed that.

[1254] Yeah, that's fine.

[1255] That's not to say I thought you were irritable.

[1256] Well, I was.

[1257] I knew I was.

[1258] I could tell that something was wrong because of that.

[1259] Because I was like, things that wouldn't normally bother me this much are.

[1260] And it's hard for me to know, which I think maybe a lot of people, might have this issue.

[1261] I don't know.

[1262] But, you know, I have a lot of opinions.

[1263] Yeah.

[1264] And I have a lot of thoughts on things.

[1265] And I'm kind of high strong.

[1266] Yeah.

[1267] And I think when you're depressed, like obsessive thoughts.

[1268] Yeah.

[1269] But see, it's hard for me to know when it's extra or when it's just me because that's my personality as well.

[1270] That's right.

[1271] That can't go away with a pill.

[1272] And I don't want it to.

[1273] Of course not.

[1274] But I want the extra.

[1275] to go away.

[1276] And it took me a long time to realize there was excess and it wasn't just my regular personality.

[1277] I have noticed that that edge is just grounded a tiny bit.

[1278] And that's really all I wanted last week.

[1279] I was sad about something.

[1280] And for a second, I was like, oh, they're not working.

[1281] And then I was like, no, I'm still going to be sad if things are making me sad.

[1282] And I should be sad if something's making me sad.

[1283] So that's actually a good sign.

[1284] Yeah.

[1285] I'm able to feel things as they really are.

[1286] Yeah, the goal's not being emotionless.

[1287] No. I don't want that.

[1288] No. Anyway, so the point is, I think they're doing a lot of good and I'm excited.

[1289] Also, I have zero energy.

[1290] Right, right, right.

[1291] I have very, very little energy.

[1292] I'm really tired.

[1293] And so I've been increasing my macha uptake.

[1294] Well, welcome to my world.

[1295] It's just a bunch of up, like any non -narcotic upper I can be on that.

[1296] any non -narcotic depressant.

[1297] I just don't regulate it.

[1298] It's fine.

[1299] It is.

[1300] And Kristen just read the new Michael Paulin.

[1301] I want to read it.

[1302] Me too.

[1303] I don't know if it's a book so much as like a long essay or something because it's two hours audio.

[1304] But it's like on caffeine.

[1305] And basically all these doctors who are sleep study doctors do not intake caffeine.

[1306] And I was like, oh, I feel good.

[1307] I'm not someone who has to struggle with that or has to.

[1308] think like, oh, should I get off of it?

[1309] But now I kind of am.

[1310] Well, it'll be an easy getting off of it.

[1311] You've had a half cup of match and six hours.

[1312] I know, but I need energy.

[1313] Anyway, so that's sort of my update.

[1314] That's a positive update.

[1315] I think it is.

[1316] Yeah.

[1317] What other updates?

[1318] What do you have any updates?

[1319] Hmm.

[1320] Updates, updates, updates.

[1321] Well, my son's leaving today.

[1322] Yeah.

[1323] So Aaron Weekly, we talked about before, is in town.

[1324] Now, people don't get too mad at us, because He drove.

[1325] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1326] He got a test.

[1327] He and his four children he brought all got tests before they left.

[1328] And they didn't interact with anyone.

[1329] Then they were in our pod.

[1330] Then they didn't leave our house.

[1331] And now they're returning back to Michigan.

[1332] And they drove from Michigan.

[1333] God bless him.

[1334] I don't know how he did that.

[1335] With four kids.

[1336] Yeah, eight, nine, 13 and 13.

[1337] Oh, what a saint.

[1338] Yeah.

[1339] And he said it went swimmingly.

[1340] Also, I got him on meundies, which I said an ad.

[1341] That's right.

[1342] He's fucking loving those.

[1343] We were watching Succession outside last night.

[1344] Yeah.

[1345] And he was laying on his belly and he itch his butt hole.

[1346] I could see him itch his butt hole.

[1347] I don't want to say his hole, but pretty close to his butt hole.

[1348] Okay.

[1349] And he goes, oh, I even like how it feels when I itch myself in these underwear.

[1350] Wow.

[1351] And I was like, yeah, because you're feeling that micromodal squish around.

[1352] That's right.

[1353] Three times softer than cut.

[1354] Oh, yeah.

[1355] And he could feel it on that scratch.

[1356] Oof.

[1357] I love a me, Andy.

[1358] You know, I sleep them every night.

[1359] Yeah.

[1360] Although, didn't you say you took the bed in the raw the other night?

[1361] I did do a nude sleep.

[1362] Yeah, sometimes I do a nude sleep.

[1363] When I do that, weirdly enough, I did it last night.

[1364] Oh, okay.

[1365] Because Aaron's in town, our kids are sleeping at the foot of our bed on a little pad.

[1366] And then so Kristen was asleep.

[1367] The two kids are asleep.

[1368] And I thought just crossing to my closet was going to be too disruptive to get my boxer shorts.

[1369] Because I wear me undies all day.

[1370] But then I sleep in boxer shorts to air my ball sack out.

[1371] Okay.

[1372] And I thought, well, I'm not going to do that.

[1373] I'll just sleep nudie.

[1374] Right.

[1375] The problem is it can be distracting.

[1376] Like when I roll over on my side, now I might have like nuts between my thighs or penis between my thighs.

[1377] And then I've got to pull it all out from between my thighs.

[1378] And so I just run the risk of waking myself up by belvedereing myself, basically.

[1379] Sure, sure, sure.

[1380] I don't run into that problem.

[1381] Right.

[1382] Well, I wonder though if your boobs flop around and wake you up.

[1383] They don't.

[1384] You ever get like hit in the face with one while you're rolling around?

[1385] Oh, my God.

[1386] Oh, my God.

[1387] Mine are not so loose that they're hitting me in the phone.

[1388] Well, okay.

[1389] There'd be nothing wrong if they were.

[1390] There'd be absolutely nothing wrong.

[1391] Low hangers are beautiful too.

[1392] Everything's beautiful.

[1393] But mine are a different kind of beautiful.

[1394] Mine are not the kind that are hitting me in the face.

[1395] Though you are like smoohing, you are smushing them a bit.

[1396] Sometimes I don't like it because I'm like, what if I am like stretching them out or something?

[1397] Yeah, you want to preserve their buoyancy.

[1398] But that doesn't really make any sense.

[1399] I don't sleep in a bra.

[1400] The shirt isn't doing anything for me. Oh, God, no. No structural.

[1401] support there.

[1402] So it's a mental game, really.

[1403] Yeah, yeah.

[1404] I do not worry about my penis becoming saggier or my balls when I sleep in the raw or in a boxer panty.

[1405] Yeah, but women are, you know, they're evaluated by the perkiness of their boobs.

[1406] Yet another thing.

[1407] That is not fair.

[1408] It is not.

[1409] What's really not fair if I can say it is that the reward for making their body a filling station for a human is that it changes your boobs forever.

[1410] That's right.

[1411] That feels uniquely mean from Mother Nature.

[1412] Exactly.

[1413] Like you should be rewarded with bigger, fluffier tits if that's what you're in the market for.

[1414] Whatever you're in the market for, that's what you should have after breastfeeding two kids.

[1415] You should have a big reward.

[1416] You should have whatever body you want right after you have a baby.

[1417] I totally agree.

[1418] But you know what?

[1419] This is interesting.

[1420] I wonder if this is, well, it's obviously physical.

[1421] They're draining fluid out of your breast.

[1422] Yeah.

[1423] But But evolutionarily, maybe, because remember when we had David Sinclair on, and he was saying, evolutionarily, it's very hard to give birth.

[1424] It's hard on the women's body.

[1425] Yeah, our heads are too big.

[1426] Right.

[1427] Obviously, in history, many women died in childbirth.

[1428] So that's partially why there's a shorter range of time a woman can produce eggs.

[1429] Yeah, like it would probably, it could literally break an 80 -year -old.

[1430] hips to pass a 10 -pound baby through there.

[1431] Yeah.

[1432] So I wonder if the boob sagginess has to do with...

[1433] They want you to retire them?

[1434] Yeah.

[1435] Or incentivizing getting more pregnant again.

[1436] Because you get pregnant and even if your boobs got saggy after the first one, you get pregnant again and they get big and plump and so maybe you desire your boobs to be big and plump.

[1437] I'm going too far.

[1438] No, no. It's possible.

[1439] One time on Oprah, like, I must have been 10, and I've never forgotten this.

[1440] It was an episode on, like, bras or something.

[1441] She was talking about sagginess.

[1442] She said that if you put a pencil under your boob and it stays.

[1443] Yeah.

[1444] That's a bummer.

[1445] I don't know.

[1446] That's a very high bar.

[1447] It's an incredibly high bar.

[1448] This was probably the year 2000.

[1449] Things have changed, okay?

[1450] Yeah.

[1451] But I have never forgotten that and I do sometimes do it.

[1452] You do?

[1453] Yeah.

[1454] And does it hold a pencil?

[1455] It must.

[1456] I haven't done it recently, but it wasn't holding a pencil the last time I did.

[1457] Thank you.

[1458] But it has been a bit.

[1459] Maybe I'll try it tonight.

[1460] Well, how about a beer can?

[1461] Now, that's a fair measurement.

[1462] Like, if your boob can hold a full, unopened beer can, then, yeah, they're probably.

[1463] Guys, bodies are beautiful, especially the ones that are a milk station.

[1464] Yeah, a fueling station.

[1465] Your story about being nude, you started it by saying the girls are at the foot of your bed.

[1466] So it started off weird.

[1467] Can I just say that?

[1468] It started off like, so I decided to be nude because the girls were in my room and they're at the foot of my bed.

[1469] So I decided to be nude for that.

[1470] And they prefer that I sleep nude.

[1471] Yeah, that was weird.

[1472] Yeah.

[1473] So don't edit out the part where I explained they're on a pad on the floor.

[1474] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1475] And I didn't want to wake them up.

[1476] Also, they see me naked all the time.

[1477] At what age do you think you're going to stop that?

[1478] I think a lot of parents wonder about this.

[1479] I wonder about it, you know?

[1480] I guess for me, it's like they're not sexual beings yet.

[1481] That's just those hormones haven't come yet.

[1482] How do you know?

[1483] Well, because I know when I thought, well, I can tell you, like when I was a kid, my brother would watch this one porno my dad had.

[1484] And to me, it looked like a homicide.

[1485] But that's you and that's boys.

[1486] And girls are.

[1487] Well, give me one second.

[1488] Okay.

[1489] I don't know.

[1490] I would argue little boys are horny.

[1491] No?

[1492] That doesn't matter.

[1493] The point, I'll just tell my own story.

[1494] It looked like a homicide.

[1495] It looked like a homicide for a couple years.

[1496] Then I clearly remember it was walking down the stairs.

[1497] And I saw that same porno.

[1498] I was like, hmm, that looks kind of interesting.

[1499] Yeah.

[1500] And I didn't do anything other than I got new hormones.

[1501] Right.

[1502] You know what I'm saying?

[1503] Yeah.

[1504] So I guess I feel like once the girls are starting to have like hormones and having sexual thoughts, they will not want to see me naked.

[1505] Yeah, maybe.

[1506] Because I didn't think about seeing my mom naked until I started having weird feelings.

[1507] And then I was like, oh, I don't want to see that.

[1508] I now know the utility of that whole setup.

[1509] Sure.

[1510] And I don't want to be recognizing that my mother has those parts.

[1511] But there's probably stages, right?

[1512] Let's start from one thing.

[1513] Humans for 100 ,000 years didn't have clothes.

[1514] Yeah.

[1515] So there's nothing natural about being clothed around your children as an animal on planet Earth.

[1516] So I have to start by just saying, we are designed.

[1517] to be nude around each other.

[1518] Sure.

[1519] So we live in an age where there are clothes.

[1520] Mm -hmm.

[1521] So to me, it's like whenever they are uncomfortable about the fact that I'm naked, you also see these European families.

[1522] So you go to a park in Germany.

[1523] The whole goddamn family's naked in the park.

[1524] And I'm like, it's cultural.

[1525] Whatever are weird, again, I do not want to see my mom naked.

[1526] And yet if I had grown up in Germany or France, I probably wouldn't give a shit.

[1527] So it has to be cultural.

[1528] Sure.

[1529] but I've seen in your children that they they have flirtations, that there are boys that they're kind of in, that they like.

[1530] Oh, yeah.

[1531] Oh, yeah.

[1532] And so I do think there is something happening in them.

[1533] Now, I don't think they're putting together penis.

[1534] That's what I'm saying.

[1535] Yes.

[1536] They think I have like, like I'm an elephant and I have another device to breathe from or something.

[1537] It doesn't, they're not, it's not a sexual organ to them yet.

[1538] Right.

[1539] Right.

[1540] Right.

[1541] It's just an appendage that is.

[1542] goofy looking coming off my body and they don't understand why there's hair around it.

[1543] Yeah.

[1544] The whole thing is just a goofy mystery to them.

[1545] Sure, sure, sure.

[1546] But I'm saying as far as hormones and stuff and stuff happening, it is happening.

[1547] It just they haven't put the pieces together literally and physically.

[1548] That's what I'm saying is I think once they realize that that thing will get hard and be used for coitus, it's time to put a robe on.

[1549] Yeah, yeah, that's fair.

[1550] I guess you're right.

[1551] You can kind of let them dictate.

[1552] Dictate.

[1553] Okay, Angela Duckworth.

[1554] Oh, Angela.

[1555] Boy, did I like her.

[1556] Yeah, she was wonderful.

[1557] We were saying after the fact because she has this podcast with Stephen Dubner, who we love from Freakonomics.

[1558] And we were saying what a fun podcast that must be because they just have so many thoughts in their head.

[1559] Yeah.

[1560] And both this episode and our episode with Stephen were so meandering in a fun way.

[1561] Yes.

[1562] We covered so many different things.

[1563] Their podcast must just be all that.

[1564] And I bet it's great.

[1565] Cannot wait to listen to it.

[1566] Same.

[1567] So she said Outliers is an Outlier.

[1568] Bestseller list collective five years, 270 weeks.

[1569] Okay.

[1570] So published in 2008, Outliers debuted at number one on the bestseller list for the New York Times in the U .S. and the Globe and Mail in Canada.

[1571] Okay.

[1572] It came out on November 18th.

[1573] It was on the bestseller list the next week, November 28th, holding the position for 11 consecutive weeks, Between 2011, when the paperback version was released in February 2017, the book made the New York Times bestseller list for paperback nonfiction 232 times.

[1574] Holy smokes.

[1575] How much money do you think he's made off of this?

[1576] I hope a lot.

[1577] Me too.

[1578] He deserves it.

[1579] He deserves it.

[1580] Yeah.

[1581] He's so dang special.

[1582] Yeah, we love him.

[1583] Okay.

[1584] So first generation, you were very adamant that you knew.

[1585] Yep.

[1586] And let me tell you, you don't.

[1587] Because there's really very little consensus.

[1588] Like most of the things you read say, it's very willy -nilly.

[1589] Uh -huh.

[1590] So here's what I found.

[1591] Okay.

[1592] The term first -generation immigrant refers to an immigrant, a foreign -born resident who has relocated and become a citizen or permanent resident in a new country.

[1593] Okay, we could have guessed that.

[1594] Yeah.

[1595] There are two possible meanings of the adjective first generation, according to the Merriam -Webster dictionary.

[1596] First generation can refer to a person born in the U .S. to immigrant parents or a naturalized American citizen.

[1597] Both types of people are considered to be U .S. citizens.

[1598] The U .S. government generally accepts the definition that the first member of a family to acquire citizenship or permanent resident status qualifies as the family's first generation.

[1599] But the Census Bureau defines only foreign -born individuals as first generation.

[1600] Birth in the United States is therefore not a requirement as first -generation immigrants may be either foreign -born residents or U .S.-born children of immigrants depending on who you ask.

[1601] Some, so sociologists insist that a person cannot be a first generation immigrant unless they were born in the country of relocation, but this is still debated.

[1602] So there's a lot of mixed messages.

[1603] Yeah, we just don't really know, do we?

[1604] We don't know.

[1605] So we can just decide for ourselves.

[1606] Sounds like what everyone's doing is deciding for themselves.

[1607] I think I stand by the, I'll tell you why.

[1608] Just if we look at the words, first generation, a generation has to start at birth.

[1609] But why?

[1610] Again, like what about my mom?

[1611] What if someone, boy, I want to get this right, if someone emigrated from India at 70 years old, would you call them first generation American if they became naturalized?

[1612] No, because, well, and then they had kids after that?

[1613] Forget that.

[1614] No, you have.

[1615] If we can call someone first generation for just being naturalized, I thought that's what you just read.

[1616] Then as 80 -year -old person that moves here from India becomes naturalized and then everyone go like, their first generation, I would say no. Well, no, but you're only saying first generation in relationship to your family.

[1617] You're saying, like, I'm first generation, which means I was first in my family.

[1618] So you wouldn't say first generation if it was someone who just moved.

[1619] It makes sense to me that it's the first generation born here.

[1620] Let's say somebody was born in Germany because there was, or Joy Louie Dreyfus.

[1621] She wasn't born here, right?

[1622] Or I can't remember, but she.

[1623] That could be.

[1624] Anyone who's, let's say, born in Paris and then a year later, their family moves, and they grow up here.

[1625] That's harder.

[1626] Why?

[1627] But see, why?

[1628] Because they're so young that they represent a generation.

[1629] But my mom was six.

[1630] I fully concede that your mother is like some mix that doesn't fit the definition all that well because she was so little when she came here.

[1631] Right.

[1632] So you're saying born here.

[1633] That's why I give her a point five.

[1634] You're saying born here.

[1635] Yeah, I think the first generation to be born.

[1636] here is who should be called first generation.

[1637] Okay, so the Paris example wouldn't be.

[1638] Correct.

[1639] Okay.

[1640] Okay.

[1641] Oh, all right.

[1642] The ethnic diversity of Lincoln School.

[1643] Oh, all right.

[1644] So I already talked about this with Kristen, and this is ripe for a debate between you and I, because you're about to get data on the whole school.

[1645] Yep.

[1646] Not her classroom.

[1647] Yeah, of course.

[1648] We were talking about the school.

[1649] No, I was talking about that my daughter's in a class with predominantly first generation Asian kids.

[1650] No, no. Yes.

[1651] That's my whole point is that I was looking at her writing and seeing that she's at the bottom of the class.

[1652] That was part of the conversation, but the beginning of the conversation was about low income.

[1653] We were talking about the ethnicity based on that.

[1654] Remember, because I said that doesn't really make any sense because a lot of Asians are affluent.

[1655] So this doesn't add up.

[1656] And then she was like, no, but there can be poor Asians.

[1657] Well, that was definitely one part of the conversation.

[1658] But the part where I made claims about how many Asian kids were in the class was about the fact that my daughter could probably never be in the top 10 % of her class because the majority of the students in her class are first generation Asians.

[1659] Now, are you saying class as in kindergarten?

[1660] Yeah, and not even just.

[1661] Or is in literally her classroom.

[1662] Literally her classroom because I was looking at a wall with her right.

[1663] next to all these others.

[1664] And then I looked at a chart with gold stars and saw that she was tied with the boys.

[1665] So I was only making a claim about her class.

[1666] Okay.

[1667] I mean, I will go back and listen to this.

[1668] Do you understand the logic of what I'm saying, though?

[1669] It wouldn't make sense for me to say that she's competing with fourth grade, fifth grade, or first grade, second grade, third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade students she's not even competing with her in other grades.

[1670] The only thing that's relevant to the point I was making is who's in her class.

[1671] That was secondary.

[1672] That was a secondary thing you were talking about.

[1673] We were talking about the breakdown of charter schools.

[1674] That just happened to be something you said about, yeah, and then.

[1675] But you're about to read the percentage of Asians at, I don't want to say the name of the school.

[1676] Yes, at her school.

[1677] At her school.

[1678] Yeah, I am.

[1679] And I'm just saying that that's not necessarily what the percentage in her classroom is.

[1680] Sure.

[1681] Okay, great.

[1682] But you were saying that the breakdown of the school is mostly ethnic.

[1683] And then you were saying, I said the whole school is like 70 % reduced lunch or something.

[1684] Yeah.

[1685] Yeah, you did.

[1686] Regardless of what I said, you're probably right.

[1687] I don't know.

[1688] What I'm telling you right now is the point I was trying to make is that in her class, she was not in the top 10%.

[1689] Nor do I think she could get in the top 10 %?

[1690] Because I think that her class was majority first generation Asian.

[1691] Yeah.

[1692] That's the point I'm currently.

[1693] I just want to be clear about that's what the point I'm trying to make.

[1694] Okay, so her school is 20 % Asian, 6 % black, 1 % Filipino, 33 % Hispanic, 40 % white.

[1695] Okay.

[1696] Why are they not counting Filipino as Asian?

[1697] That's weird.

[1698] Why did they break off just the Philippines?

[1699] Well, I think it's better to be breaking it down to more specifics.

[1700] Sure, but let's just say it said the school is 20 % Asian, 30 % Chinese, 20 % white, It's just weird to break out Filipino.

[1701] Filipino 1%.

[1702] Hispanic Latino, 33%.

[1703] White, 40%.

[1704] Multiple other, 0%.

[1705] I'm glad there's no others there.

[1706] Well, no, that includes, it says in parentheses includes American Indian, Alaska, Native, Native Hawaiian, other Pacific Island.

[1707] It says American Indian?

[1708] It does.

[1709] Oh.

[1710] English learners 18%.

[1711] Special education, 8%.

[1712] Free reduced lunch, 43%.

[1713] Oh.

[1714] Oh, that's much lower than I thought.

[1715] I mean, still almost 50%.

[1716] That's great.

[1717] Yeah, but I said 70, so I was way off.

[1718] I'd like to get that number up to 50.

[1719] It's almost 50, which is good.

[1720] Yeah, it's good.

[1721] Yeah.

[1722] Well, the premise of the school is half -haves and half -havs knots.

[1723] Yeah.

[1724] I like that.

[1725] Yeah, I'd love it.

[1726] I'd love it.

[1727] It's like, it's so beneficial for both people.

[1728] It is.

[1729] It absolutely is.

[1730] That's what we're trying to go for.

[1731] Yes, we are.

[1732] What was I going to say?

[1733] Hmm.

[1734] Asian.

[1735] Asian, Filipinos, not Asian.

[1736] We learned that today.

[1737] Well, it's its own category.

[1738] They're just going slow, but what they're going to do is eventually have each ethnicity represented or starting with Filipino.

[1739] Yeah, great.

[1740] It's a baby step.

[1741] I know, you know, you don't like that I classify myself as Asian.

[1742] Fucking hate it.

[1743] Okay, but in this case.

[1744] You're not from Asia.

[1745] You're from a subcontinent.

[1746] In this case, I'm Asian.

[1747] I reject that.

[1748] And it's why I buck up against this with you because every day.

[1749] test I've ever taken my whole life.

[1750] I have to check the Asian box.

[1751] That's bullshit.

[1752] Under other, I would have written subcontinent.

[1753] Well, yeah, I didn't do that.

[1754] Or Mickey Mouse.

[1755] Technically, or rather Minnie Mouse.

[1756] Minimouse, yeah.

[1757] You know, every single election, I forget how many Mickey Mouse votes there are.

[1758] But there's always like thousands of people write in Mickey Mouse.

[1759] It's been a tradition for, well, 50, 70 years.

[1760] But you'd be writing other, but then writing Minnie Mouse.

[1761] So, like, it'd be playing on that joke and also your identity as miniature mouse.

[1762] That's right.

[1763] Also, I'm not doing that.

[1764] I will be voting for a president.

[1765] You're not going to write Mickey Mouse.

[1766] You could in California.

[1767] I'm not risking it.

[1768] You guys, this is too important.

[1769] Oh, I know.

[1770] I'm just saying California will be a high 70 % blue, as it always is.

[1771] Yeah, but I'm not risking it.

[1772] Yeah, don't risk it.

[1773] And I would feel horrible about myself, knowing I did that.

[1774] I think it's cool if you voted for yourself, miniature mouse.

[1775] No, no, no, no, no. I'd love it.

[1776] have you as the president.

[1777] Guys, stakes are high.

[1778] You would, you would be such a great president, but you would kill yourself as the president.

[1779] You'd probably die at like two and a half years in your term.

[1780] Heart attack?

[1781] Yeah, just you would try to take on everything.

[1782] Oh, I would.

[1783] You wouldn't delegate.

[1784] I'm the secretary of all the things.

[1785] So, for the first time, I'm the president and the secretary of treasuries.

[1786] Secretary of Defense.

[1787] Secretary of secretaries.

[1788] I'm also my secretary.

[1789] I'm my own secretary.

[1790] There's virtually nobody at the White House, except for me and the special services.

[1791] How else will I know if everything's going right?

[1792] I know, I know.

[1793] You know?

[1794] I know.

[1795] If you want something done right, you got to do it yourself, including the Secretary of State.

[1796] Okay.

[1797] Anywho, I'm Asian.

[1798] And, okay, so she said it, she thought for the Marshall Scholarship, you had to have, like, a 3 .8.

[1799] And you have to have a 3 .7 minimum GPA.

[1800] Okay.

[1801] Yeah.

[1802] Pretty high.

[1803] It's high.

[1804] And that is, by the way, college.

[1805] Yeah.

[1806] Not high school.

[1807] I don't care about high school.

[1808] It doesn't mean anything.

[1809] You don't care about it because you did poorly in high school.

[1810] That's right.

[1811] It means nothing.

[1812] And you did well in college.

[1813] That's right.

[1814] Oh, you.

[1815] Okay.

[1816] Frank Rourke.

[1817] Let me ask you this, though.

[1818] Yeah.

[1819] It's a binary question.

[1820] Would you have rather been great in high school or grade in college?

[1821] Academically.

[1822] Let's put it this way.

[1823] I feel much better saying I graduated college with a 3 -8 in high school, was a 2 .0 or whatever the hell it was, then vice versa.

[1824] If I said to people, oh, yeah, I went to college.

[1825] I graduated with a 1 .9.

[1826] Of course.

[1827] Yeah.

[1828] But here's the thing.

[1829] Here's the rub.

[1830] Here is the thing, which we talk about a lot in this episode, is the reason I actually don't give college GPAs as much credit.

[1831] And I can say that as a summa cum laude.

[1832] Okay.

[1833] Don't pull rank on me. Oh, I'm gonna.

[1834] This is all tying in.

[1835] I was doing something I loved.

[1836] I was also doing something I didn't love, to be honest.

[1837] I had an extra major that I didn't love.

[1838] But when you're doing something you love, as you said, you're much more inclined to do well.

[1839] Pay attention to care.

[1840] But there is a little caveat in that, which is I actually took all the same stuff I took in high school, but I chose to.

[1841] And literally for me, it was the simple.

[1842] act of getting to decide because I still like I ended up loving history I didn't love history in high school and you know I ended up taking all these geography classes I found super fascinating none of that stuff interested me in high school but as soon as I was I had autonomy over the process ownership really and I think you find this in employees like when you give employees ownership over the outcome there are a million times more invested as was I that's true but you probably didn't take the maybe you did I'm not you can tell me but you probably didn't take the class in college that you were the absolute worst at in high school that you hated and that you were no good at.

[1843] I did not take chemistry in college.

[1844] Yeah, I didn't.

[1845] Yeah.

[1846] I didn't.

[1847] But additionally, I didn't like English in high school and I loved my English classes in college.

[1848] I mean, first and foremost, you're around people who want to be there.

[1849] And in high school, half the people there don't want to be there, maybe more.

[1850] half of them aren't going on to college.

[1851] Yeah.

[1852] So just you're surrounded by people that all want to be there.

[1853] That has some lifting effect.

[1854] 100%.

[1855] More to my case that I don't actually give that much credit to your GPA in college.

[1856] I think if you fail out of college, that probably means like, ooh, okay, something happened there.

[1857] But if you just have a really high GPA, I'm like, yeah.

[1858] If you cared, you did.

[1859] Right.

[1860] You would not suggest that the coursework at high school is as hard as the coursework at college, would you?

[1861] But, like, I struggled more probably in high school.

[1862] Like, there were classes like chemistry that I was just not good at.

[1863] And I had to work hard to be at the level that I wanted to be at.

[1864] And in college, I'm like, I'm just not taking chemistry because I'm not good at that.

[1865] Yeah.

[1866] I had three term papers for every single class.

[1867] So if I had four classes, which I always had, I had 12 term papers to write in three months.

[1868] And that was extraordinary.

[1869] You know, like when I look at my binder from college that I kept all my papers, it's a Bible.

[1870] It's an encyclopedia.

[1871] Yeah.

[1872] And I just, I had to write three papers in high school.

[1873] I know, but you like writing.

[1874] Says you.

[1875] No, I do love writing.

[1876] I don't know that I love writing research papers.

[1877] No one does, but you...

[1878] With citations and bibliographies and work cited.

[1879] No, I didn't like doing any of that either, but I'm more likely to enjoy a class where there's writing with over chemistry.

[1880] Yeah, me too.

[1881] Even if I don't love the thing I'm writing about, I'm going to be better at that than I am at chemistry.

[1882] It's really weird, too, because the hardest class I ever took in my life was in college and it was Spanish.

[1883] Oh, my God.

[1884] I had to take so much Spanish because my theater degree required it and I was also bad at it.

[1885] Yeah, all you see schools require that you test into like two years of Spanish or something or you got to take two years of it, whatever it is.

[1886] And, you know, I tried it at three different schools before I found one I could pass it at.

[1887] So to me, that was even worse than chemistry.

[1888] I was just like, I cannot do this.

[1889] My brain doesn't work that way either.

[1890] I had to take four because of theater.

[1891] And I was just like, this is miserable.

[1892] I took German in high school, and it wasn't hard as Spanish in college because I didn't have Sassie Feld to copy every single homework and test off of.

[1893] So she got me through German in high school.

[1894] Callie and my friend Robbie would cheat in Spanish class.

[1895] I would always cover my paper and not let them cheat off me. Oh my gosh.

[1896] Wow.

[1897] Yeah.

[1898] They were goofing off and then cheating.

[1899] The only time I ever cheated in my life in college was in my.

[1900] my Spanish final for the second term and what I did is computers were relatively new at that time and I just made the font like two and I printed out this huge thing that fit in the palm of my hand that's so dangerous I had to I was not going to pass and I was not going to get into UCLA and I just I had to do it and I was like I can't believe I'm about to cheat in college but I have to And I did.

[1901] And it worked.

[1902] It worked.

[1903] It worked.

[1904] Okay.

[1905] So, well, one of my facts got erased, but that's fine.

[1906] It was about Howard Rourke and Frank Lloyd Wright.

[1907] Yes, it seems that parts of Howard Rourke were based on Frank Lloyd Wright.

[1908] That's what I saw.

[1909] So they're not saying the whole thing, obviously.

[1910] They can't say that.

[1911] It's by no means a biography of him.

[1912] But he was the archetype.

[1913] I think she was kind of.

[1914] Yeah.

[1915] Adam Smith.

[1916] she was saying 1 ,000 people dead far away is better than losing your...

[1917] And it's on the wealth of nations, Adam Smith?

[1918] It's not, actually.

[1919] Oh, a different.

[1920] No, it is that Adam Smith.

[1921] Oh, okay.

[1922] But it is from his book before Wealth of Nations, The Theory of Moral Sentiments.

[1923] If he was to lose his little finger tomorrow, he would not sleep tonight, but provided he never saw them, he will snore with the most profound security over the ruin of a hundred million of his brethren, and the destruction of that immense multitude seems plainly an object less interesting to him than this paltry misfortune of his own.

[1924] That's not that astute of an observation.

[1925] I mean, he certainly said it, but it's not that.

[1926] Maybe back then.

[1927] Back then, no one thought that.

[1928] I don't know.

[1929] No one had ever thought of it.

[1930] That doesn't seem like a real breakthrough in thinking.

[1931] Okay, all right.

[1932] He's observed that humans are selfish, you know.

[1933] And he put it in an extreme scenario.

[1934] Wow.

[1935] You're not having it.

[1936] I'm jealous of Adam Smith.

[1937] I can tell.

[1938] That's all.

[1939] That's all?

[1940] Yeah.

[1941] Well, that was nice.

[1942] And love her.

[1943] Love Duckworth.

[1944] Don't be Danny Conneman.

[1945] Be Duckworth.

[1946] That's right.

[1947] That's the lesson to take.

[1948] It's a good lessee.

[1949] Love you.

[1950] Bye.

[1951] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcast.

[1952] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[1953] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.