302 - Whistles & Flags

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hardstar.

[3] Thank you.

[4] That's Karen Kilgarra.

[5] I forgot my line.

[6] Whatever.

[7] I was lost there for a second.

[8] We haven't scripted this in years, so it could be whatever you want it to be.

[9] I need to run my lines the night before and then an hour before.

[10] I wish you would.

[11] I skip.

[12] Look at the script, Karen.

[13] God.

[14] Five, six, seven, eight.

[15] Please.

[16] I do love the idea of there.

[17] there's got to be podcasts out there and not the scripted act out ones but like you know somewhere there are people doing podcasts that type up a script beforehand like a hello welcome to this is that thing and this is what the podcast is about casual conversation there's a couple of them that I've listened to because they're true crime ones where they have hosts but clearly they're actors playing hosts trying to they're just trying to get the whole thing done yeah talent like there's no one that actually it's not their podcast right just like you have a great voice, can you, can you present this true crime podcast, even though you have no interest in true crime whatsoever?

[18] Yes, there's some, and it's not a judgment.

[19] It's just a way of producing.

[20] Well, I mean, what I'm saying is, you're allowed, a little.

[21] The goal isn't what we're doing.

[22] Let's just say that.

[23] But this is all I'm saying.

[24] The goal should never be what we're doing.

[25] Please.

[26] Please have less of this out in the world.

[27] But it's the thing where you can tell when people, even if they're really, you're really, good actors.

[28] You can tell when they're not actually talking.

[29] Right.

[30] You know, from the soul like I am right now.

[31] It's a talent to be this soulful and loose.

[32] Oh, God.

[33] This blue -eyed soul over here that's happening every week on this show.

[34] It takes almost six years and 300 episodes to be this loosey -goosey.

[35] You also forget that anyone's listening is a great step in the process.

[36] Yeah.

[37] And then you have to memorize the script and forget it all and let it come out naturally.

[38] Yeah.

[39] Pretend it's true.

[40] We take So many acting classes for this box.

[41] Now, as an actor, Karen, which you are, I don't know.

[42] I just wanted to say actor.

[43] Over the years, what I realized is whatever drew me to acting, it was just a kind of placeholder because what I really wanted to do was stand -up comedy.

[44] And acting, the job of acting sucks.

[45] It does.

[46] sucks.

[47] What about, I'm sorry, but real quick, craft services.

[48] Like, you could get anything you want for breakfast.

[49] Like, anything.

[50] But you can also do that outside that building with, with, and not fail at the same time.

[51] You can just go, you can just go have a bunch of crazy eggs if you want to.

[52] You're right.

[53] Breakfast cassidia, you can do that anywhere.

[54] You can do it.

[55] You know what you can do?

[56] You can have dinner for breakfast just like you can have breakfast for for dinner.

[57] You can do it all.

[58] Meatloat.

[59] Meatloap.

[60] It's 7 a .m. I can.

[61] Oh, man. One time, like, not long ago, Vincent, I were having breakfast at the diner, and I saw a couple next to us get chili cheese fries.

[62] And it was like 10 a .m. I was like, I am allowed to do that.

[63] Yes, you are.

[64] Similar to the time.

[65] And this was at Stonstown in the mid -late 70s.

[66] My aunt Kathleen took me and my sister and my cousin Nancy to Stonestown, which is the big mall in San Francisco down 19th Avenue.

[67] And they had this, their, their food court was like international food so there was no brand okay it's just like this is where you can get Japanese food this is where you can get Chinese food this is where you can get you know which is progressive for the late 70s right completely yeah it was like and then there was like hamburgers and then you know yeah whatever fried chicken or whatever but I'll never forget we got whatever we were all we all got to get what we wanted came back sat at the table with our trays and I looked over and there was a little girl with like a man in a suit it was clearly father and daughter and her her plate was just a little mountain of mashed potatoes and I was like okay that's a divorce dad I looked at it you got to eat whatever you want when your divorced dad is fucking taking you out like anytime I longed for her life I was just like imagine the amount of TV she gets to watch and the amount of mashed potato she gets to eat she is running the fucking show in that apartment.

[68] And her name is Kamala Harris.

[69] And today she is.

[70] The leader of the free world.

[71] That's right.

[72] Okay.

[73] This is a perfect segue.

[74] Otherwise, I wouldn't bring this up this early in the show because this is bad.

[75] Oh, all right.

[76] Today I stumbled upon the fact that at some point, 2019 and before that Pringles put out like, it's almost like a like a, gift set you know like when you get at the grocery store of like here are all these different kinds of cookies for the holidays they put out one of different flavor like like Thanksgiving flavor pringles just yes just like the candy corns we ate oh shit and it's have you ordered it have you overnighted it well first let me tell you the flavors and then why why I haven't overnighted it it's gravy gravy gravy gravy gravy gravy gravy gravy gravy and gravy oh I would have fucking double overnighted it then what's that tonight that's tonight uh turkey mashed potatoes stuffing of course then there's a mac and cheese one a creamed corn fucking pringle uh green bean casserole a cranberry sauce one and a pumpkin pie pringle okay are these i was so sorry you said they started in 2018 well it was only able to find them up to 2019 the reason i didn't overnight them is because guess how much.

[77] I don't think they're making them now.

[78] Guess how much they're going for on fucking eBay?

[79] Oh, $800?

[80] A thousand dollars.

[81] Down from 1500 because everyone's been like, fuck you.

[82] Can you believe?

[83] Pop that top.

[84] Yeah.

[85] And then you're like, yeah, give me that green bean casserole, um, pressed potato flake chip.

[86] You know, that company tried to get away with not calling them a potato chip.

[87] So, they wouldn't have to, like, have the same nutritional bullshit.

[88] Like, they tried to make it seem healthier.

[89] It was not a potato chip.

[90] And FDA or, like, it's a fucking potato chip.

[91] Pringles, like, calm down.

[92] But also, when we were on the road, Prangles were my downfall.

[93] Remember, I used to say it to you where I'm like, I'm not going to open the little Pringles can that's going to be in the hotel room.

[94] There's always.

[95] Yes.

[96] Right?

[97] And I would always be, like, Diet Coke and Little Pringles can.

[98] But it's like, these are not, the idea that they would even pretend to be healthy, they're barely potatoes.

[99] they're not nothing that's happening in your mouth in that no pringle retainer that I stick in my mouth and let melt away it's not it's not made of food it is no different then and I am not talking shit because I will make these no no fucking shame at all they'll like instant mashed potato flakes it's the same thing it's just squashed into a thing into a perfectly sized shape of the roof of your mouth that you can just do over and over again it's the they get easier to eat as you go they because the flavor doesn't build like you don't on your like 10th Dorito you're like my tongue burns and this is bad for me and I know it and I'm doing it anyway yeah not so with pringles question important question that I've had to ask myself from our snack drawer recently nacho cheese Dorito or cool ranch Dorito well if here comes the eating disorder if it were still 1980, then I would be like, oh, I don't even know when the cool ranch came out, yeah.

[100] Or I would say earlier days, before one food tasted different, because now it just isn't the same.

[101] But the original nacho cheese Doritos had my heart and soul.

[102] From the first moment I tried them, I was like, what is happening?

[103] These are amazing.

[104] Yeah.

[105] When Cool Ranch Doritos came out and I was like, a spinoff, exciting, but they never really did it for me. Yeah.

[106] The way the original ones did.

[107] These days, I don't know if they're putting extra, like, paprika on there or something.

[108] They're just too, it's too much.

[109] Like, the whole event is too much.

[110] The Cool Ranch ones?

[111] No, the classics that I used to love so much with a turkey sandwich, like in school.

[112] Smashed in there.

[113] Anyways, this is our Thanksgiving and Christmas food theme podcast.

[114] We'll be trying not to.

[115] Jones's gravy soda.

[116] Can we try that?

[117] Yes, please.

[118] Okay, I'm going to buy that.

[119] I'm going to buy that.

[120] You know, Jones, I feel like Jones Soda should get more credit because I think they started the weird flavor thing that Oreo is now very well known for.

[121] A lot of places are doing like, can you believe we're doing this?

[122] And everyone's like, yeah, at this point, Joan Soda did it very early on.

[123] Yeah, they did.

[124] That was kind of their thing.

[125] Maybe I'll go to the Galco's soda shop in fucking Eagle Rock or Highland Park that's got like all the old school soda and candy.

[126] I'll pick up some weird flavors.

[127] maybe next week or before Christmas or whatever, we'll do some weird taste testing.

[128] I'm loving this life that I'm living.

[129] And you're a huge part of that.

[130] Honor.

[131] Honored.

[132] Thank you.

[133] Also, the idea, that just made me have kind of this weird memory of someone's mom when I was growing up used to go and it was pre -Bevmo.

[134] Did they have soda deliver to their house?

[135] there was some special she would go to a specialty soda shop and get rich rich or just like or just kind of like a living on the edge because my parents it was the 70s where it was like everyone was like wheat bread and the peanut butter with two inches of oil on the top that bummed you out so bad nightmare nightmare but there's some people's parents who are like you know what fuck all that shit we're going full on like who wants a squirt with dinner or obscure your fascinating sodas.

[136] We're like, what kind do you want?

[137] My mom bought a Zima once.

[138] I don't think that counts.

[139] Speaking of alcoholism.

[140] I don't think accidentally.

[141] Just to relax everybody?

[142] Yeah, that's alcohol for all those kids who don't know.

[143] That's a malt beverage.

[144] It was an original delicious carbonated malt beverage.

[145] Janet.

[146] How old were you?

[147] I think it was like 12.

[148] Anyways, meth came not much later.

[149] And can you fucking blame me?

[150] You were like, this is the, perfect.

[151] This was the gateway.

[152] Zima is a gateway drug to everything.

[153] Okay, so she went to the store and she got...

[154] Wait, what?

[155] You're telling me a story that I interrupted about your...

[156] No, no, no. It was a mom that basically went to a specialty.

[157] It was before Bevmo.

[158] There was still, there was some specialty soda shop and she just got some...

[159] It was like sodas I'd never seen even at, like, even our Aegis's corner store had like blue knee high, you know what I'm going to go get a blue knee high and you can't stop me or whatever.

[160] That's adorable.

[161] But this mom thought, remember jolt when we were children?

[162] Yes.

[163] Oh, we'd get jolt colas.

[164] What was it?

[165] It was like double caffeine Coca -Cola that tasted great.

[166] It tasted great and I think there was also extra sugar in it more than average.

[167] There was extra that's a guess asbestos in it there was extra fucking and a sprinkle of meth all of it and that's how we learned that's how we did it um do you have anything no I I don't I haven't really nothing to report I think it's like a slow crawl to the end of this year yeah slow crawl toward although I have to say I'm very excited because my family came to visit and everyone's down and we're with there of course we're watching a lot of football well, which I would, on the surface, think I would be irritated by.

[168] But the second it's on, like, I wouldn't watch it by myself.

[169] But when my dad is there and then everyone's kind of around, that's how we're just so used to that.

[170] That's like the background.

[171] It's comforting.

[172] Yeah.

[173] It really is.

[174] I love, I don't, I mean, I'll watch it for a minute while it's on.

[175] I don't give a shit about it.

[176] But like, it's so comforting to have.

[177] Yeah.

[178] It means everyone's chilling, right?

[179] Yes, exactly.

[180] It's like, it's a casual kind of party vibe.

[181] There's lots of whistles, which you know I love.

[182] Whistles here and there.

[183] Karen is a whistle influencer.

[184] Everyone knows that about her.

[185] Everyone knows how I'm passionate, the history of whistles, but that also my dad will turn and say to, like, talk to my sister about different players as if we're all up on it.

[186] And we have no idea what he's talking about.

[187] And I always play along.

[188] And then he goes, eh, you're.

[189] but you're bullshit in me and he like but he does it every time where I'm like right I've never watched one of these games like I've no you might as well just be making up yeah and yet you still keep to I have to I have to pick that up because when Vince puts wrestling on and he's like so into it and I like want to be there for him but I'm not that interested in wrestling and he'll start laughing and he thinks I'm watching with him but I'm not and he'd be like that guy blah -b -de -blah blah blah blah and I'll be like what I have to be like I have to start pretending like I've been watching yeah you play along yeah as a loving as a loving as a loving supportive partner and that's I do it too but I also sometimes it'll be like sometimes I'll just go that how is that team New York I thought New York was white and green and they goes that's the the Giants or the Jets there's one they're white and green are one of them and it's not the ones we were watching I think the Jets and I was like oh which one's better like trying to participate again they're both the shits and he's like waving me off like it's It wasn't talking time.

[190] Yeah.

[191] That's the thing is, like, I don't know culturally how to, how to blend.

[192] So you have to kind of wait for him to give you the cue of like you're allowed to ask a question.

[193] Participate right now.

[194] Or like I'm willing right now to share with you.

[195] Otherwise, I was just looking for camaraderie.

[196] I have two daughters and a granddaughter.

[197] And you didn't give it to me. So shut the fuck up.

[198] He gets none of it.

[199] He has to do it all by himself.

[200] I play long and pretend, but I'm doing it sarcastically and he knows it.

[201] And it hurts his feeling.

[202] it's just kind of funny because it's like I think it's a holiday thing and then it really started feeling holidayish and then I think that is a good way to blend and just be like what colors are the which I like this team because of the colors that's like that pisses off a fan well the other day Vincent were going to brunch and he goes oh it's good thing that the Rams aren't playing today I already be busy and I go oh are they from San Francisco they're from L .A I don't fucking care I'm from here I don't give a shit It's unimaginable to a many men That you just have not paid attention to any sport Pretty much ever I don't care It's yeah But it's you know But then it's fun to dip into Sure It's the holiday season Oh that was a false start I love that when they do that Oh my God Because you know why?

[203] Whistles and flags Karen's favorite thing Whistles flags Maybe a hand gesture It's like this is a card.

[204] Fierce.

[205] Because you did something.

[206] Or is that soccer?

[207] A card.

[208] I don't think there's cars in this.

[209] Okay, great.

[210] But they do like, their mic gets turned on.

[211] Oh, yeah.

[212] I see.

[213] Referee or umpire on the field.

[214] I see you grabbing your wrists.

[215] I know what you're saying.

[216] Hold on number 29, 99.

[217] To the next.

[218] Stop.

[219] And then I'll be like, Dad, which team is that guy on?

[220] God damn it.

[221] Just get out of here if you're going to be like that.

[222] Well, I'm coming over for dinner with Vince and Cookie on Wednesday.

[223] So.

[224] I think we said Wednesday.

[225] It's going to be a...

[226] I can't fucking wait.

[227] I'm getting your dad a glitter iPhone case for his new iPhone, his new Christmas or birthday iPhone that you're getting him.

[228] Spoiler alert.

[229] Don't anybody tell him.

[230] Spoiler, because your dad listens to this podcast and is on social media, right?

[231] And this comes out days after, but still.

[232] Great.

[233] Oh, this comes out of Thanksgiving.

[234] Happy Thanksgiving and Thanksgiving to you.

[235] You know the old Thanksgiving Carol.

[236] What's your favorite part about Thanksgiving, Georgia?

[237] Well, you mean food -wise?

[238] That's all I can think of.

[239] But yeah, I don't know.

[240] It's the main thing.

[241] It's like cozy and happy and everyone's like stoked.

[242] I guess my answer is Jenga.

[243] Okay.

[244] The family plays.

[245] You got yourself there.

[246] I did.

[247] It was a winding road to get to Jenga, but you got there.

[248] I got there.

[249] What's yours?

[250] Wait, your whole family plays every year?

[251] It's just like there for whoever wants to play it, which I really enjoy.

[252] it's fun that's really good too because it's like kids of every age right one to a hundred you know me my favorite thing about Thanksgiving is whistled those Thanksgiving whistle carols you guys go around the block every year so loud just piercing piercing whistle concerts and then there's a couple dog whistles thrown in just to put fuck with everyone in the neighborhood.

[253] You know what I actually, I will say, what I miss about old school family Thanksgiving and what I love about this, what's already happening, is the way my family does it and my sister is so like plany, plenty, that she's kind of like, she's got different areas of the kitchen where this is, the boxes of stuffing are over here.

[254] Yeah.

[255] And they're with the things, they're with the onions that are going to go in there.

[256] So she's like putting things in areas and everything is slowly being prepped and because we're there's going to be a pie and there's going to be you know the whole thing yeah and the morning of it all starts at like eight a and like it just kicks off and goes all day long i think that's what i love i did you what time do you guys eat because everyone's coming over to our place like two which is insane for dinner like a dinner time thing i think people i mean fiveish i think probably is five or so that's like you guys should come yeah oh unless unless something bad happens on Wednesday.

[257] You guys can swim by after your thing on Thursday.

[258] Nope.

[259] But we cut you, we cut the Kilgaravs off from our holidays.

[260] We get one chance and one chance only to make this right.

[261] It's fucking right.

[262] If Frank and Cookie don't get along, this podcast is over.

[263] Goodbye.

[264] Frank and Cookie, I told Georgia earlier that, because we were talking about her bringing cookie over to play with Frank.

[265] And then I said, everyone in Petalum his grandparents are named Frank and Cookie.

[266] That is just like the most hilarious familiar name combination.

[267] It's so true.

[268] Like I didn't even think about a great combo.

[269] What a great couple they are.

[270] How fun they are and invite them for Christmas.

[271] Have a high bowl, huh?

[272] Yeah.

[273] It's Frank and Cookie's house.

[274] Oh, he's home for he's home from work.

[275] I make him a highball.

[276] And we have we have cocktails.

[277] Cookie can play the piano.

[278] For sure.

[279] Gather around.

[280] Tinsel around her neck.

[281] Like what?

[282] Cookie, put the garland back.

[283] All right.

[284] Should we get this thing going?

[285] Why not?

[286] Oh, we should do exactly right corner.

[287] Let's do it.

[288] We should do work.

[289] Come on.

[290] Oh, it's coming up on our third anniversary of this network.

[291] Holy shit.

[292] That's kind of mind -blowing.

[293] I just saw that in the email and I'm like, what?

[294] Really?

[295] Wow.

[296] Wow.

[297] Congratulations, everybody.

[298] The baby we birthed without fucking pain meds or anything.

[299] anything.

[300] Actually, if it's, if it's exactly right, it's third anniversary, then we need to call out thank, bless, and hold dear, the great Danielle Kramer, who has been running this show since, you know, six months into day one and kicking us and taking us and taking names for us and we could have never gotten here without Danielle Kramer.

[301] Never ever.

[302] She is a saint and an incredible person.

[303] She's the greatest.

[304] She's the coolest.

[305] Thank you, Danielle.

[306] Yeah, thank you, Danielle.

[307] Happy three years.

[308] She's like, I quit.

[309] She's like, I can't stand here with you.

[310] I hate you, Bo.

[311] No, actually, Daniel's the one that's like, I just want quarantine and the pandemic and all the scariness to be over so we could go out to dinner again.

[312] Because we had a real good dinner going out to dinner thing.

[313] We did.

[314] And she's vegan and still enjoy dinner.

[315] Like, that says something.

[316] That's a person who can party.

[317] That's right.

[318] Yeah.

[319] And then, oh, waiting for impact.

[320] Of course, Dave Holmes' incredible podcast this week is taking a little detour into the 90s alternative rock with guest Peter Stewart, who's the musician from the band, Dog's Eye View.

[321] So, fucking hop into the 90s, put on a slap bracelet and jump on in there.

[322] And get into it.

[323] That's actually a really, that's a really good interview.

[324] It's such a fascinating.

[325] I love that podcast so much.

[326] And then, of course, if you go to exactly rightmedia .com and or my favoritemerder .com, you can go check out everybody's merch.

[327] Every show on our network has merch, and they have great merch.

[328] Like, I saw what you did.

[329] We were selling Danielle Henderson's book.

[330] She has signed copies of her book that she just wrote, which is a great book.

[331] So good.

[332] And there's also, they have some kind of amazing arts and crafts wall hanging kit that is in the colors of the podcast, you know, logo really great there's like of course bananas has their bananas has their candle their holy candle where scotty is the baby and kurt is the virgin mary i think is what they're doing and it's holding babies naked baby scotty it's very odd and wonderful it's very devotional just like them your dirtiest prayers um yeah everyone's got stuff that you that make great gifts that you can go on there and then of course we've got all of our t -shirts and whatnot We have ornaments.

[333] My favorite murder ornaments and so many good gifts and ugly Christmas sweaters.

[334] We have all kinds of stuff.

[335] There's a stay saved and do God's Mission sweatshard, which is truly one of my favorite.

[336] A, things that ever happened on our podcast and then B, it's a great looking sweatshirture.

[337] And if you order by December 8th, you'll get it by the 25th.

[338] I don't know how it may all works.

[339] No, that's right.

[340] Be aware of the supply chain.

[341] That's it, right?

[342] That's all our biz.

[343] That's it.

[344] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[345] Absolutely.

[346] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[347] Exactly.

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[365] Goodbye.

[366] Okay.

[367] Here we go.

[368] Georgia goes first.

[369] Yes.

[370] I'm going first.

[371] And I'm going to tell you, Karen, about this news story I've been fascinated with since I first stumbled upon it a couple years ago.

[372] And I've kind of been following it.

[373] It sounds like something out of a sci -fi book.

[374] But it actually goes all the way to the fucking top.

[375] As it always does.

[376] As it does and should.

[377] This is the Havana syndrome conspiracy.

[378] Oh, shit.

[379] You know.

[380] People talking about this.

[381] Yeah.

[382] For today's story, I use sources from a BBC article written by Gordon Carrera.

[383] And I use that heavily.

[384] An article written by Andrea Mitchell, Ken Dillian and Brenda Bressler, and a U .S. news article by Paul Schinkman.

[385] New York Times opinion article by Spencer Boeck -Lindle, an ABC article written by Connor Finnegan and Matt Saylor and the Council on Foreign Relations.

[386] So let's get into some conspiracy shit.

[387] Okay.

[388] So the Havana syndrome is shrouded in mystery and conspiracy theories.

[389] And the U .S. government hasn't totally been forthcoming about the details, which of course just makes it more interesting to us fucking tinfoil happen.

[390] matters.

[391] But recently, they vowed to be more transparent.

[392] So with that said, here is what we do now.

[393] In 2015, President Obama meets with Raul Castro in an effort to restore U .S. relations with Cuba, which works great.

[394] And soon the U .S. opens up an embassy in Cuba.

[395] And so the people who are going to work at the embassy in the U .S. government are sent to live and work in Cuba.

[396] So they're there to work with the Cuban government to collect intelligence to fight back against Russian and Chinese spies.

[397] Great.

[398] In 2016, the CIA officers in Cuba starts suffering from mysterious ailments.

[399] Some victims report hearing buzzing, grinding metal, or piercing squeals.

[400] They cover it like super loud, so loud that they cover their ears, but that doesn't make a difference.

[401] It's like it's in their head.

[402] Others report not hearing a sound, but feeling heat or pressure in their skulls.

[403] Many victims suffer from dizziness, fatigue, headaches, disorientation, cognitive difficulties, and more, and these symptoms last for months even after the occurrence.

[404] So three CIA officers stationed in Cuba come forward to tell NBC News what it's like to have what's now referred to as Havana Syndrome, so the public will take it seriously.

[405] Tina Onifer says she was standing at her kitchen windows, and she's one of the U .S. workers.

[406] She's at her kitchen window.

[407] She's washing dishes when out of nowhere.

[408] where she, quote, felt like she was being struck with something.

[409] It was as if she had been seized by some invisible hand and couldn't move.

[410] She felt pain that she'd never felt before in her life.

[411] And the pain was mostly in her head and her eyes.

[412] And so she's gripping her head.

[413] She can't fucking even move.

[414] She's able to get away from the kitchen window.

[415] And the acute symptoms stop, but she still had a splitting headache for the rest of the night.

[416] And for the next couple of weeks, she experiences vertigo, her memory.

[417] is affected um but meanwhile also her two kids who were upstairs in the time didn't experience anything so it was like it was targeted through her window allegedly allegedly this is all you're going to be dealing with normally i'm you know me and bigfoot and all the cryptosology stuff i had i've read a lot of i've read some about this yeah what not a believer you're not okay let's get into it No. This is.

[418] I bit.

[419] Well, yeah, go ahead.

[420] I'll get to the people who are like bullshit.

[421] Okay.

[422] So married couple, Kate husband.

[423] Wow.

[424] And Doug Ferguson.

[425] And Doug wife had a different experience than Tina.

[426] As they heard, quote, an annoying sound at their house many nights a week over the course of weeks.

[427] The sound was piercing, persistent, very loud.

[428] And they said it was nothing you could sit down with and be okay with.

[429] Like, it was not ignorable.

[430] after examination by neurologist, Doug was allowed to go back to work, but Kate was diagnosed with a brain injury, quote, related to a directional phenomenon exposure.

[431] And she had to retire on medical disability after treatment didn't help.

[432] So there's your, I don't believe it, Karen.

[433] Yeah, in my face immediately.

[434] Doctors diagnosed her with a directional, what's it called?

[435] Directional phenomenon exposure.

[436] Huh.

[437] Okay.

[438] Well, let's get more into it.

[439] So, yeah.

[440] For the year 2016, the U .S. intelligence officers, specifically in Cuba, seemed to be the only people suffering from the syndrome.

[441] So it was specific to Cuba.

[442] But then in 2017, a dude named Mark Polymeripopolis, a senior CIA agent wakes up in a Moscow hotel with his ears ringing and his head spinning.

[443] He later tells the BBC that he felt like he was going to vomit and he couldn't stand up.

[444] Two years later, Mark was still suffering from headaches so severe he had to retire.

[445] In 2018, a CIA officer located at the consulate in China reports similar symptoms.

[446] She suffers headaches, nausea, and loss of balance for months, initially believing it was connected to high levels of pollution.

[447] But then her mom comes out to help her.

[448] She also falls ill. And then here's like a little piece of evidence that, like, to me, means a lot.

[449] her dog falls ill too, meaning like...

[450] Yeah, but I'm just thinking black mold.

[451] Natural gas escaping through a hole in the ground that no one knows is possible.

[452] Radon gas.

[453] I mean, I don't know those actual symptoms of everything, but having a migraine, like, I've told you that story of when I was in college and that day in my room and I both got a really bad migraine, couldn't move, laid in bed.

[454] We didn't work for the government.

[455] And we weren't, no one gave a shit about anything we knew because we didn't know anything.

[456] So it's the kind of thing.

[457] We're just like, okay.

[458] This is the kind of story that people freak out about and then start going, I have it too.

[459] And it's like, okay.

[460] I'm going to get to that.

[461] Okay.

[462] Okay.

[463] So from there, the syndrome makes its way to every continent except, and this is a conspiracy, Antarctica.

[464] What are you doing Antarctica?

[465] Yeah.

[466] Just being cold.

[467] people suffer from headaches dizziness nausea and vertigo loss of movement hearing and concentration people hear loud sounds similar to cicadas which seem to follow them from one room to another but when they open the outside door the sound abruptly stopped and some of the victims said they felt as if they were standing in an invisible beam of energy mm -hmm oftentimes though if like if there's a cricket at your house and you can hear it when you go to look for it you open a door it will stop if it knows you're coming.

[468] That's right.

[469] Just putting it out there.

[470] I'm going to devil's advocate you this entire.

[471] Don't take it personally.

[472] I'm just doing it.

[473] Hey man. I didn't invent Havana syndrome.

[474] I'm not mad about it.

[475] Okay.

[476] Hey man. Hey man. So Havana syndrome becomes national news.

[477] Many people start theorizing about what's going on.

[478] Some people theorize the symptoms like Karen Kilgaref said are all in the mind.

[479] One of those people.

[480] No, no. But I mean, I don't think it's not like they're imagined.

[481] I think that they could have lots of causes.

[482] Oh, I see what you're saying.

[483] Okay.

[484] You don't think that it's, okay, got it.

[485] No, no. I think having had a very terrible migraine, I know exactly, like a lot of those symptoms sound very similar.

[486] Got it.

[487] To me. Yes.

[488] One of those people is Robert Below, a professor of neurology from UCLA.

[489] He told the BBC that he thinks the syndrome is actually just a quote, what they're now calling a mass psychogenic condition, aka mass hysteria, which they don't use the term anymore.

[490] Right.

[491] So he also calls it contagious stress.

[492] He says that most psychogenic conditions stem from a stressful situation, such as fucking working in Cuba.

[493] Everything that's happening in our world today.

[494] The world.

[495] Yeah.

[496] Below says that the symptoms of Havana syndrome are real.

[497] So the symptoms are real.

[498] However, they are from stress.

[499] And then the psychogenic condition affects masses of people when reports of the syndrome spread.

[500] So like the bigger news becomes the more people.

[501] experience it.

[502] Yeah.

[503] People become, quote, hyper aware and fearful, and they start exhibiting the same symptoms.

[504] He says it's similar to how some people may feel sick after they're told they've eaten tainted food, even when there was nothing wrong with what they ate.

[505] Yeah.

[506] And then I looked up a bunch of examples of mass hysteria because I think it's fascinating.

[507] Another example is that when telephones were first used widely at the turn of the 20th century, quote, numerous.

[508] And telephone operators became sick with concussion -like symptoms attributed to acoustic shock.

[509] So they were like, something in the waves of the telephone is making me sick.

[510] Yep.

[511] Right.

[512] And it was just like them having to adapt to this new technology that they didn't understand.

[513] Or being afraid of it.

[514] Yeah.

[515] Yeah.

[516] So other.

[517] And it's in your head.

[518] It's in your ears.

[519] It's in your head, but the symptoms are real.

[520] Like you make yourself sick almost.

[521] I'm not saying it's in your head like it's fake.

[522] I'm saying it's taking place.

[523] It's not your arm.

[524] It's your brain hurts.

[525] The things that are happening are literally in your head.

[526] But the people who think they've eaten something wrong, that's in their stomach.

[527] Like they get nauseous and sick.

[528] Correct.

[529] We're saying the same thing.

[530] I'm not saying.

[531] I'm saying that these people, when you believe you could have it, that the pain you're experiencing and the symptoms are.

[532] are things that are neurologically based.

[533] Yes.

[534] That's what I mean.

[535] Got it.

[536] So other examples are the laughing plague.

[537] There's a meowing plague where a bunch of nuns started fucking meowing.

[538] Steven, that one's for you.

[539] So sorry, but can I just tell you that?

[540] Yeah.

[541] The laughing thing.

[542] Last night we were ordering pizza and you know, Lucervor's pizza.

[543] So good.

[544] So I'm reading all the different kinds of pizza that we can order.

[545] One of the, and I'm reading them up, Vegetarian.

[546] Yeah.

[547] it's whatever their names are yeah and i get down and i go the ring burner and then start reading and i get two i get to jalapenos which is like two ingredients in and i start laughing that's terrible name it's the worst name why would you call your i start laughing my niece mora starts fucking laughing and we're like i'm like oh my god i can't stop laughing it was like church my dad we couldn't tell if he was paying attention or not because there was football game on but i It was like I was about to get in trouble and I couldn't stop laughing.

[548] It was so hilarious.

[549] And then the three of us, me, Laura and Nora all started laughing so hard.

[550] It was hilarious.

[551] But anyway, we had our own mini -nice hysteria of just, that's how it goes.

[552] That's exactly what it's like.

[553] Like one person starts doing it and then everyone else, which is the most fun, like, thing ever.

[554] There's a dancing plague, which sounds great.

[555] But then, of course, there's the satanic panic, which is also mass hysteria.

[556] There's the War of the Worlds from Orson Wells and the Salem Witch Trials.

[557] So, listen, not all mass hysteria events are fun like a laughing plague.

[558] I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do the meowing nuns at some point in the future, please.

[559] And go deep.

[560] Okay.

[561] And do an impression of what they sounded like for 60 minutes.

[562] I will do it.

[563] Please.

[564] Yeah.

[565] So some suggest, Karen, that the Havana syndrome may be linked to chemicals used in pesticides insects, insecticides, and nerve gas.

[566] Cuba did launch an aggressive campaign against our foes, the mosquitoes.

[567] My favorite murder is biggest foe.

[568] Mosquitoes in 2016, because remember the Zika virus?

[569] So they did an aggressive campaign against mosquitoes and spraying in and around offices and diplomatic residences.

[570] So that's a possibility.

[571] Yeah, or a chemical reaction.

[572] A posthability.

[573] Imagine the possibilities.

[574] This is serious.

[575] Others wonder if the Cuban government is using some sort of weapon on U .S. personnel, which isn't that far -fetched because it's no secret that the U .S. and Cuba have had a strained and strange relationship for decades.

[576] So this all stems from 1959 when Fidel Castro overthrows the U .S. back government in Havana and turns it into a socialist state.

[577] castor becomes allies with the Soviet Union and according to the BBC Cuba is established as a quote major Soviet listening station you know there's the whole cold war thing which called cold cold war thing as they say in the history explain it to me please so in 2014 Vladimir Putin visits Cuba and suggests a listening station reopen and the next year Obama restores diplomatic relations with Cuba, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[578] Because these events are so close, I'm wondering if Cuba is actually collecting intelligence on the U .S. for Russia.

[579] Which might give people headaches?

[580] Well, people believe the answer is in our favorite form of cooking microwaves.

[581] Those microwaves.

[582] Yeah.

[583] Delicious microwaves.

[584] So, which is a type of electromagnetic radiation.

[585] So besides causing some of the symptoms of that syndrome, One former UK intelligence official tells the BBC that microwaves can be used to illuminate electronic devices to extract signals or identify and track them.

[586] So according to the BBC, this theory stems from World War II when there are reports of people being able to hear something when a nearby radar is switched on and begins sending microwaves into the sky.

[587] So fast forward at the Cold War, when Professor James Lynn conducts experiments to figure out how microwaves affect the human brain.

[588] and he does a thing that I fucking love when scientists do which is experiments on himself yes that's the most honest way it really is so he sits in a room puts an antenna pointed out the back of his head someone sends pulses of microwaves through the antenna he finds that a single pulse of a microwave sounds like a zip or a clicking finger so it does sound like something and there is like a sensation like a bird chirping he says in your brain and it's produced in the head rather than as a sound wave coming from the outside.

[589] So it seems like it's coming from inside the brain.

[590] Yeah, exactly.

[591] He theorized that the soft tissue of the brain is absorbing the microwave energy and converting it into a pressure wave moving inside the head, which makes me think of the fact that Vince will not stand near the microwave when the door is open.

[592] Do you do that too?

[593] Yep, I have to move away.

[594] It's because they were, I remember when they were like invented and first put into homes.

[595] Right.

[596] And my parents wouldn't get.

[597] get one for years.

[598] They were like, let's just see.

[599] Let's just see how it goes.

[600] And then Vince told me that his family had the one they bought in like 1978 until his dad died like a couple of years ago.

[601] And like you just keep the same microwave.

[602] But it probably does have.

[603] So if I, if I open the door without pressing stop, he like yells at me. Yeah.

[604] Old school.

[605] So today there are around 200 people suffering from the Havana.

[606] syndrome 200 people Karen yeah okay all right and the US government is trying to figure out what's going on one official says it's quote the most difficult intelligence challenge they've ever faced but there's no real evidence that the Havana syndrome is even real so they're on your side partly because so many of the patients have completely different symptoms so it's not like if I feel like if everyone had this symptom it would be obvious but they don't and so many people are misdiagnosed with Havana syndrome.

[607] The State Department tried to get some answers by sponsoring a U .S. National Academics of Science study into the Havana Syndrome.

[608] In December 2020, they reported that, quote, directed high -energy pulsed microwaves were most likely responsible for some of the cases.

[609] And they noted that Russia has studied microwave technology more than any other fucking country in the world.

[610] Okay.

[611] So even though they sponsored the study the state department currently says they believe the report is a quote plausible hypothesis but they haven't found any further evidence to support it hmm i mean you know it's making me think of unlike the history channel or some i watched a special one time about and this was a while ago about how they were developing um whether it was for military use or for police use which is very frightening um like different things were like they were sound wave things have you seen those where it's like if they point them, it's for it's quote unquote crowd control.

[612] It's like if they point it like you shit your pants.

[613] Like it it the sound wave is such a low vibration.

[614] I think that was one of them or they just make you freeze like it scrambles you.

[615] Yeah.

[616] I'm not saying that I don't doubt that they're there, they're devious people out there, you know, making weapons or technology that could really affect other human beings negative.

[617] I absolutely believe in that.

[618] But I do think in this day and age especially, everything has this kind of fevered, fervor, like people are just jumping on bandwagons all the fuck over the place.

[619] What are you talking about unvaccinated people?

[620] What do you talk about the 20th video I've seen on Twitter of people?

[621] I just watched this video of this fucking idiot trying to confront a guy who is getting a booster.

[622] and it's like you're absolutely doing this for like online clout and you look like a complete idiot.

[623] Yeah.

[624] Like it's it there's, we just live in this very weird.

[625] Yeah.

[626] This world where people are so affected by social media and.

[627] Yeah.

[628] They're easily led.

[629] Yes.

[630] They're sheeple.

[631] Uh, everybody but us.

[632] So it's for us and people who listen to this podcast.

[633] Right.

[634] who are all vaccinated.

[635] The weird thing to me is that a study led by this dude Douglas H. Smith, who's the director for the Center for Brain Injury and Repair at the University of Pennsylvania, who looked at 21 cases of this.

[636] He and his team found signs of brain damage, like, what you can't do on your own as a like.

[637] No, that's not a migraine.

[638] That's a totally different thing.

[639] That's like, yeah, you're right.

[640] That's my theory goes out the window when there's actual, like, tissues on an MRI that are shown have been affected.

[641] So they, but they saw no signs of impact to the patient's skull, a trauma they referred to as immaculate concussion, which is a rad punk rock band.

[642] It's a little bit, a little catchy, a little too catchy in my taste.

[643] Yeah.

[644] They determine that the injuries resembled concussions, like those suffered by soldiers struck by roadside bond.

[645] in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[646] So the State Department set up a task force to help personnel suffering from Havana syndrome, which they're now calling unexplained health incidents because I don't, because I think it'll incite another war if they call it the Havana syndrome.

[647] And they're not calling it attacks.

[648] What do you mean inside another war?

[649] Well, I just don't think they want to call it an attack or the Havana syndrome because.

[650] Oh, oh, like blaming.

[651] Yeah, like it just puts the blame on someone.

[652] So regardless of what's causing it, I will say Gordon Carrera said in his BBC article, quote, The mystery of Havana syndrome could be its real power.

[653] The ambiguity and fear it spreads act as a multiplier, making more and more people wonder if they are suffering.

[654] And it's maybe developed a life of its own and it's maybe affecting politics on its own as well.

[655] Just in the past year, reports of an outbreak in Hanoi, Vietnam, delayed president, sorry.

[656] delayed Vice President Kamala Harris' visit by a few hours.

[657] One can dream.

[658] In September, President Biden signed in the law a bill to compensate victims, despite there being no formal explanation for the Havana syndrome.

[659] Cheryl Rofer, a former chemist at the Los Alamos National Laboratory, says, quote, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and no evidence has been offered to support the existence of this mystery weapon.

[660] Yeah.

[661] Meanwhile, experts at the CIA called the Havana syndrome one of the most confounding medical and espionage mysteries to involve American personnel overseas since the Cold War.

[662] And some people just think it could all be in the mind.

[663] And that is the mystery of the Havana syndrome conspiracy.

[664] That's, it is, it's definitely fascinating.

[665] I guess you know what my cynicism about this comes from is having had.

[666] Epilepsy since I was 27.

[667] Yeah.

[668] And I have had seizures where I don't come out of it quickly.

[669] So I'm kind of in the seizing state but conscious.

[670] And it's a very strange sensation and experience.

[671] And the sounds are very upsetting.

[672] And there's a whole thing that goes with it that if I had a, you know, like some sort of like a government job or whatever, I would have been like, what the fuck was that?

[673] But I was just a podcaster in my house, whatever, where it kind of was, because it's something happening in your brain and the brain is this mysterious organ that we barely know anything about.

[674] And so the explanations, it's just so irritating that it's not like this rash and then you can do all the tests or whatever.

[675] It's like the brain is so mysterious and or things with hearing or balance or whatever where, you know, I think we all know people that have gotten vertigo.

[676] Yes, vertigo and like, it took a while for it to go away and that, I mean, what do you hear when you're, I didn't know there was like a hearing aspect to it?

[677] If, for this last one where I didn't come out of it very quickly, I was like there seizing for a while and it almost sounded like really heavy techno music I would have never listened to voluntarily.

[678] Like there was like, it was like, it was a really upset.

[679] setting very loud and kind of grindy sound.

[680] Now, coming out of it, it could have been me literally like grinding my teeth.

[681] It could have been like all of the involuntary physical reactions when you're having seizure.

[682] It could have been a lot of different things.

[683] It was just like it was kind of a different new experience.

[684] It was pretty scary.

[685] And that's the thing about when something happens that's neurological.

[686] It's so fucking scary because you can't look at it and other people can't look at it.

[687] at it and there's very few tests like that you know the mystery of it is very upsetting and very stressful so if it's a stress -based thing yeah or if that's one of the theories it creates stress it's like it's like one of those things that the laughing plague it's people start laughing and then they can't stop and no one else can stop and then that it like builds on itself yeah same with a neurological issue where if you have a thing that's very explainable, just maybe the people weren't there in the room to explain it.

[688] It was just the one person.

[689] I don't know.

[690] Yeah, that makes that makes me feel a lot more like, I think empathy for that of like what a terrifying thing it is when your brain is doing something you have no control over and you can explain it to someone in the doctor's office but they can't test it and they can't, they can't test your blood and be like, yeah, you have this or that.

[691] It's just, yeah, misfiring.

[692] It's misfiring.

[693] And like there's, there are times where there, you know, so I actually really do, I'm being cynical and simultaneously, I have a lot of empathy for people who either have gone through this or think that's what it is because until they know, they are not going to know.

[694] Right.

[695] And that's a, it is a terrible feeling.

[696] And I know that feeling.

[697] Yeah.

[698] And then to have to retire from your career because of whatever is happening that no one can explain is is uh probably just fucking heartbreaking yeah it really is but you know what then it makes me think of and this is not directly related but it reminds me in the 90s remember ebstein bar where it was that disease where people were just exhausted yeah and they were just like so tired that they couldn't go to work or they couldn't it's like that doesn't get talked about anymore huh the way it did it was such a new story back yeah of like this thing that people were just kind of like falling ill with yeah and inexplicably and I yeah I just wonder I wonder I also kind of go like they're bioengineering food right like you know that thing of people always go like oh when I was growing up nobody had a gluten right it's like right because we were eating food from the ground yeah like that was before they you know like it's not the same and or like because shit wasn't reported or because yeah because we were eating a more balanced diet it's not like it just wasn't fucking there yeah it's like the chemicals and the right i don't know it's it's so scary it's chemicals chemical weapons politics the way things like you just kind of know things it's scary it's scary in every direction modern life is very scary truly that's why we love true crime that's right it's explainable exactly um that was really fascinating i also just i'm like I don't want us to be spreading no or hysteria no of course not I mean that's why I'm like prove it yeah but nobody in the government listens to this podcast I think we're fine true true that's true I hope um okay or at least aren't getting their facts here no no one gets our facts here we're the show for people who know the facts and are here to tell us the facts That's right.

[699] We are after the, after the facts.

[700] The facts of life.

[701] Okay.

[702] So this story I'm about to tell you this week, my friend Carrie O'Donnell, who you know well, he is the co -host of the podcast, Sex and Unique podcast with Laura Marie Shane Halls.

[703] And he has told me about it for a long time because his family members knew the victim.

[704] Oh.

[705] And so he was like, have you ever heard of this?

[706] my whole family knows about it and like and I thought when he told it to me I thought I knew which which story he was talking about but then he was like he he suggested it to me again I go Carrie I did it and he goes no you did it he goes you did the this similar one and he's like this this is why you want to do this one and he explained it to me so yes so thank you Carrie for the suggestion and this is the murder of Martha Brailsford.

[707] Okay.

[708] The sources for this story are an episode of Your Worst Nightmare from the Discovery ID channel an article from Salem News by Julie Mangannis an unsolved mysteries wiki about Martha Brailsford, an AP news article with no byline, a UPI article with no byline, a Tony Rogers article for AP News, an article by Laurel J. Sweet for the Boston Herald, an article for ptheos .com by Matt Oren, an article for The Telegraph, the local newspaper by Aunt Stewart, Lori Cabot's Wikipedia page, and an article for Boston .com by Justin A. Rice, an article by Juan Gonzalez for the New York Daily News and a vice article by Haley E .D. Housman.

[709] This takes place in and around Salem, Massachusetts.

[710] So it's the middle of the night on July 12th, 1991, and Boston ferry captain Brian Brailsford is laying awake in his bed waiting for his wife, Martha, to come home.

[711] So Brian's job takes him away until late at night or early in the morning hours, But it is very rare that Martha would be out so late, especially without calling Brian and letting him know.

[712] So after a while, he's like, maybe she got into an accident.

[713] So he calls the local hospital to ask if she's there.

[714] The staff there says no one by the name of Martha Brailsford has been admitted.

[715] And then shortly after midnight, Brian calls Martha's twin sister Muriel.

[716] She works as a librarian in Cambridge.

[717] And, of course, the sisters, you know, are very close.

[718] They talk all the time.

[719] So Brian asks Muriel, when she last talked to Martha, and it was that morning, and Martha had told Muriel she was going for a walk around Winter Island, which is something that she did habitually.

[720] She had a dog named Rudy.

[721] She walked her dog all the time, and that was one of her, the places she liked to walk.

[722] So Muriel is, of course, immediately scared that her sister isn't home and might, be missing.

[723] Brian assures her everything's going to be all right.

[724] So now it's about one in the morning.

[725] Brian goes to retrace Martha's usual walking route on Winter Island and look for any sign of her.

[726] He doesn't find anything.

[727] He extends the search to nearby beaches and parks.

[728] He basically looks for his wife all night long until 8 in the morning on July 13th.

[729] At that point, he finally decides to contact the police.

[730] So at first, the police aren't convinced.

[731] Foul play has taken place.

[732] according to them there's a number of reasons why Martha may have left including that she could have a secret lover that her husband doesn't know about but when another two days go by and there's still no sign of Martha the police finally officially declare her missing so it's standard procedure they interrogate Brian first as the husband they question him to figure out if he's a suspect he swears he has nothing to do with Martha's disappearance he has an alibi for each day that she's since she's been gone.

[733] He's been sleeping at home, working, searching for Martha, and upon further investigation, all of these alibis check out.

[734] But after Brian's questioned, a friend of Martha's goes and basically speaks privately with the investigators to give them information that she doesn't want Brian to know about, she tells police that Martha had told her that she planned to go sailing with a friend named Tom on the day of her disappearance.

[735] The friend was afraid to say anything in front of Brian for fear that he would be jealous or assume the worst when the friend was like, I don't think it was anything, but I just need you to know that this is like a piece of information he doesn't know.

[736] Okay.

[737] So we'll talk about Martha for a second.

[738] Martha Brailsford was born May 8th, 1954 in Hackensack, New Jersey.

[739] She's an artist and an interior designer.

[740] And in the early 80s, she starts dating Brian Brailsford.

[741] He's a ferry captain in Boston, which I don't know.

[742] know why I think that's the most delightful and darling thing.

[743] Hottest.

[744] Of all time.

[745] Hottest.

[746] He smells so good like the sea all the time.

[747] The sea and I, you know, kind of like hairy chest, maybe a pipe.

[748] Yeah.

[749] Maybe a hat.

[750] Just like awesome.

[751] So they get married in 1982 and then the late 80s they moved to Salem, Massachusetts because Martha loves the ocean.

[752] She wants to live closer to it.

[753] And she's also a descendant of the town's founder, Roger Conant.

[754] So Salem seems like the perfect place for them to settle down, right?

[755] And she fits right in.

[756] She does her work as an interior designer there.

[757] She makes lots of friends.

[758] And of course, she enjoys her regular walks, sometimes with Rudy, sometimes by herself, all around Winter Island, which is actually not an island.

[759] It's attached by a strip of land, but it's very close to being in a separate island.

[760] Okay.

[761] Okay.

[762] So after police get the tip about Martha allegedly sailing with some man named Tom, the police track this friend down, and they identify the man as 46 -year -old Tom Maimony.

[763] So Tom's an engineer for the Parker Brothers Game Company, and he's also an avid sailor.

[764] Police find Tom at the docks at Salem Willow's pier.

[765] He's working on his sailboat, the counterpoint, and they ask him about Martha.

[766] He admits to knowing her, and he says they often walk their dogs together on Winter Island.

[767] He says he really appreciates Martha's friendship because things have been rough for him since his wife passed away from cancer the year before.

[768] And then he moved to Salem after his wife's death.

[769] When police ask Tom if he's taken Martha's sailing recently, he says he is not.

[770] The last time Tom remember seeing Martha was the Tuesday before when they went from one of their usual walks.

[771] But things are not adding up because why would Martha's friend mention a sailing trip with Tom to the police if Tom claims the trip never took place?

[772] Yeah.

[773] But there's no hard evidence against him or anyone else.

[774] So the questioning basically ends there.

[775] In the meantime, with Martha's still missing, her friends and family form a search party looking all over the area for her because Martha's very popular.

[776] She's described by her neighbors as being lovely and friendly.

[777] Everyone's worried.

[778] Everybody wants to help look for her.

[779] Everyone from local residents to the state police to the Coast Guard, they take to land, air, sea, in search of Martha.

[780] But no one can find her.

[781] Carrie's mom and Nana were on that search.

[782] No way.

[783] Yeah.

[784] I'm sure it's like, yeah, small town.

[785] Someone goes.

[786] Yeah, they knew her and loved her.

[787] She was a friend.

[788] Yeah.

[789] So police go back and question Tom two days later.

[790] And this time they visit him at his home.

[791] When they knock at the door, a woman answers who identifies herself as Patricia Mamoni, Tom's wife.

[792] Uh -oh.

[793] The one who's supposed to be dead.

[794] from cancer.

[795] So Tom quickly appears behind Patricia.

[796] He tells officers he'll speak to them privately.

[797] He ushers his wife away and assures her everything is going to be all right.

[798] So then Tom tells police he fibbed to Martha about his wife dying because he was interested in her.

[799] But why would you lie in the fucking police about it, you dumbass?

[800] Right.

[801] And also, if you're interested in a woman, why would you tell a lie that disgusting?

[802] Truly.

[803] When your wife is fucking alive.

[804] like and lives on the island like what are you expecting it's a it's just it's so it's beyond the pale in terms of what you're trying to set yourself up as right with that person right it's like not even like we're separated she's fucking dead like she's dead and you're supposed to pity me and you're supposed to you're supposed to feel beholden to right i need from you because i'm in a terrible place right now uh tom admits to having gone sailing with martha on July 12th, but he claims that he was trying to keep it under wraps so that his wife wouldn't find out.

[805] He then says that after their day of sailing together, Tom dropped Martha off on Winter Island so she could go for a walk by herself.

[806] So again, police are not buying this because if Tom had dropped Martha off on Winter Island, she could have just walked home.

[807] It was close to where she left.

[808] And as suspicious as it all seems, without any sign of Martha or any hard evidence, against Tom, they can't arrest him.

[809] So, but it's so suspicious.

[810] And it is just so odd that they're like, there's, this woman has disappeared in, like, into thin air.

[811] Yeah.

[812] And this guy's the only connection.

[813] They don't know what to do.

[814] This guy is a liar.

[815] Yes, he is.

[816] It's the only connection.

[817] It's such a bad, insane look.

[818] The things, and the things that he's kind of copping to, to me, it seems like he thinks they're not that big of a deal.

[819] Right.

[820] Or he thinks he's going to trick the cops.

[821] Yeah.

[822] Like admitting like, hey, look, I was interested in her.

[823] So I told this disgusting why.

[824] Like, right, man?

[825] Okay.

[826] So this is the part that I love and that is amazing.

[827] Desperate for a lead or answers of any kind.

[828] And being that this is the infamous town of Salem, Massachusetts, the local authorities decide to reach out.

[829] To the High Priestess of Witches in Salem, Lori Cabot.

[830] Lori.

[831] So listen to this shit.

[832] Let's talk about Lori Cabot.

[833] Okay.

[834] She's born in Wewoka, Oklahoma in 1933, and she has her first psychic experience as a child when she envisions a seven -year -old boy falling off his bike and onto a train trestle.

[835] So she tells the boy's mom that she thinks that's where the kid is.

[836] The mom calls the local sheriff.

[837] The authorities find the boy on the train trestle and have to rescue him off of it.

[838] Yes.

[839] So that's how it starts.

[840] So four years after that, Lori moves to Boston with her mother, where she meets a witch at the Boston Public Library.

[841] Sounds great.

[842] Because where else would you?

[843] This is a fucking children's book right here.

[844] This is genius.

[845] And she ends up studying with this witch until she's sick.

[846] 16 years old.

[847] And then by the late 60s, 30 -year -old Lori, she's divorced.

[848] She has two kids.

[849] So she decides to practice witchcraft again.

[850] It was like out of her life for a while.

[851] She actually was a dancer at the Latin Quarter nightclub for a while.

[852] Like she had a really fascinating life.

[853] And then she was kind of settled down and got back into her Wiccan practice.

[854] So she was living in Salem.

[855] And she actually was living across the street from the mayor.

[856] So she kept her wick in practice as a secret because she didn't want any trouble.

[857] She didn't want to get, you know, she didn't want any extra attention.

[858] Historically, this is a bad town to be a witch in.

[859] Yeah, she knew.

[860] She knew to cover her tracks.

[861] But then after her black cat gets stuck in a tree for three days, she finally reveals she's a witch.

[862] She needs her cat back for her witchcraft.

[863] And she basically gets some locals to help her rescue it.

[864] And basically this story, the way it comes out in the newspaper, I don't know if like that's the newspaper, version of the story, but basically the picture of her clutching her black cat gets in the newspaper, it becomes like a local news, then national news.

[865] She winds up on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson talking about witchcraft and practicing witchcraft.

[866] Amazing.

[867] She also opens her first witchcraft store, The Witch Shop with Two Peas and an E. Love it.

[868] In 1970, which is like, of course, perfect year.

[869] which becomes a hot spot for tourists and witchcraft enthusiasts and probably practicing witches and Wiccans in Salem, right?

[870] So it's also very smart thematically.

[871] During this time, she begins teaching witchcraft.

[872] So basically what she teaches is it's a practice combining magic astrology, environmentalism, but it's all in a scientific manner.

[873] And she teaches it at her shop as well as at Salem State College.

[874] Wellesley College and at Harvard.

[875] Wow.

[876] She faces a lot of opposition from conservative Christians, but she asserts that true witchcraft is only used for good as black magic comes back on a witch threefold.

[877] So in addition to teaching classes, she writes several books on the subject, including the power of the witch, the witch and every woman.

[878] Oh, there were just two.

[879] And Harry Potter.

[880] And the classic children's book Harry Potter.

[881] No. Her work in using magic for good dramatically increases Salem's tourism.

[882] And today, more than 250 ,000 tourists visit the town each October.

[883] Why haven't we been there?

[884] This is my biggest question.

[885] Yeah, we didn't take the time like we should have.

[886] No, we should have.

[887] We will.

[888] We'll move there.

[889] Okay, great.

[890] In 1977, the governor of Massachusetts, Michael Dukakis, grants Lori, the Patriots Award, which is an honor given to civic leaders, distinguished civil servants, community leaders, and others who are dedicated in a significant way to improving the lives of their fellow citizens and their community.

[891] And he names Lori Salem's official witch.

[892] And she later renames her third and final brick and mortar witchcraft shop, the official witch shop in honor of that title.

[893] Love it.

[894] So that's just a little behind the scenes about Lori Cabot.

[895] So love that.

[896] right so basically police go to her and say can you help us we really we need does anyone know and i would this is actually the story right here is where i wish i could go and zoom in and pull out and see what cop knew lorry cabot existed what cop knew her from some bar or something or let or he was a secret secret warlock yeah what some believer or his mother would go to her on a weekly basis and be like, I need good spells to keep my son safe if he's a cough.

[897] Or his wife was like we have to find Martha.

[898] You have to do anything it takes.

[899] Go ask Lori Cabot.

[900] You know she knows.

[901] And I'll so invite her to Thanksgiving on while you're at it.

[902] Right.

[903] Oh my God.

[904] I love it.

[905] Okay.

[906] So police give Lori Martha's name, address, and date of birth.

[907] And so she takes this information and she has basically a ritual that she does.

[908] I don't know the detail.

[909] of it but she goes into a trance and she will later say that she saw Martha out on the water with a man she sees the man make a sexual advance at Martha but as soon as Martha rejects him the man hits her in the head with a blunt object she sees the man tie a weighted belt around Martha's waist and bind her in rope with an anchor attached and throw her overboard Oh my God!

[910] So Lori tells authorities they're going to find Martha's body in the water with an anger still tied her body, and she believes they'll find her near a small island, and they'll be able to see a lighthouse in the distance from where Martha's body will be found.

[911] Ooh, chills.

[912] Yeah.

[913] So this vision is so disturbing and so specific that police go back to question Tom yet again.

[914] And wouldn't you know it, Tom changes his story yet again.

[915] This time he says that, yes, he did go sailing with Martha, but after a rogue wave knocked her off balance she had fallen overboard and when he tried to save her he was looking in the water and he couldn't see her anywhere so he couldn't save her dude police asked tom why he didn't report the accident when it happened and he tells them he panicked in the moment and he was too scared to say anything uh -huh so now the news is circulating that martha may have been somehow lost at sea and then And basically, as people start talking about that, a woman named Rosemary Farmer comes to the police station with some information.

[916] She tells police that she knows Tom Mamoni and that she'd taken two sailing trips with him herself.

[917] The first trip, she says, was fun and the second one was a nightmare.

[918] So Tom had given Rosemary the same story about his wife recently dying of cancer.

[919] So, of course, she felt so bad for him.

[920] and she believed he just needed a friend.

[921] He was just like a sad, lonely man. But when he basically gets her on the boat, he tries to take advantage of that sympathy and tries to have sex with her.

[922] And she rejects him.

[923] And basically, after she rejects him, she felt so unsafe that she almost jumped overboard and swam back to shore herself because he was scared her so badly.

[924] Oh, my God.

[925] But before she can do that, Tom backs off, turns the boat around, brings her back to shore.

[926] What a sick fuck to like take a woman in the middle of the water.

[927] There's no escape.

[928] Right?

[929] And yes, it's the kind of thing that I think you wouldn't think that way about a date like that.

[930] No. Because a guy with a boat is what?

[931] He has money.

[932] It's kind of like you're preppy.

[933] You must be kind of successful.

[934] Oh, I was thinking of a fucking like dingy.

[935] Oh, no. This is a sailboat.

[936] Oh, it was like, okay.

[937] It's very white, bro.

[938] Ready.

[939] It's very, you know, it's very Ralph Lauren fucking spary top cider shoes and his sweater.

[940] And it's like there's a kind of affluence aspect to it.

[941] Okay.

[942] Which going along with that, there's like an inherent trust.

[943] Like a rich guy wouldn't blank, blank, blank.

[944] Right.

[945] A rich widow.

[946] He's like heart is broken.

[947] Yes.

[948] He's playing the wounded.

[949] Yeah.

[950] The wounded man. Okay.

[951] So Rosemary decided not to file a police report after.

[952] this because she just wanted to put the whole thing behind her totally understandable but now she's so afraid the same thing that happened to her has happened to martha with a much worse ending yeah good for her for coming forward yeah so okay then on thursday july 18th about 11 in the morning a lobster man named hooper goodwin is fishing off the coast of marblehead massachusetts which is just east of salem when something gets tangled up in his line and when he hoists the line up, he finds a woman's body.

[953] Wrapped around the body is a weighted scuba belts and an anchor tied to her by a rope.

[954] Holy shit.

[955] And off in the distance, visible from the spot where the body is found is a lighthouse.

[956] The entire scene is just as Lori Cabot predicted down to the last detail.

[957] Fuck!

[958] The bodies decompose so much at this point, because it's been underwater for so long, it's basically just a skeleton, but investigators are able to use dental record.

[959] to confirm that it is the body of Martha Brailsford.

[960] The autopsy reveals that she most likely died by drowning, although she did sustain at least five blows to her skull and jaw.

[961] So it was a violent attack, and he put her in the water alive, weighted down, horrifying.

[962] Oh, my God.

[963] It's clear that whatever took place was deliberate and violent.

[964] With Martha's body recovered, police are finally able to get an arrest warrant for Tom.

[965] Mamoni.

[966] So the police go to Tom's house to arrest him, but he's not there.

[967] He's already made a run for it only minutes before the authorities had shown up.

[968] Tom's wife Patricia, however, is at home.

[969] So the police tell her that if she knows where he's going, she needs to tell them immediately.

[970] She has no idea where he is.

[971] He left without an explanation.

[972] And she's devastated.

[973] She's had no idea that her husband has been harassing these other women.

[974] She had no idea that he was saying that she had died of cancer.

[975] And it turned out, Tom had been lying to his wife for years.

[976] He told her he held several college degrees.

[977] That was a lie.

[978] He said he had been in the army.

[979] He never served.

[980] And when police asked her about the cancer story, she reveals that Tom had been married three times before he married her and that his second wife did have cancer, but that she had survived it.

[981] he couldn't I mean suspicions abound about him and the way he treated his wife you've got to imagine right like I don't want to horrifying I mean yeah just awful and a compulsive liar yeah and clearly violent me saying my favorite thing clearly a sociopath so she tells police she'll help them find Tom in any way she can but she really does have no idea where he may have headed now that he's on the run she didn't she didn't she didn't have any theories about where you might have gone.

[982] So what a police do?

[983] They go right back over to Lori Cabot's house and ask her to help them find Tom.

[984] So she takes his name, his birthday, and his address.

[985] She goes back into a trance state.

[986] And she has a vision of Tom shaving off his mustache.

[987] She tells investigators that she believes he's making a run for the Canadian border.

[988] And so to help slow him down, Lori casts a spell over.

[989] a straw doll that she makes of Tom.

[990] Yeah.

[991] She wraps the doll in a white cord and she sees that he's going to do something stupid to get himself caught before he's able to cross the border.

[992] Oh, shit.

[993] And two days later, on Saturday, July 20th, 1991, the state police in Maine get a call from a local caretaker about a strange man that's been lurking outside one of his cabins.

[994] And when police respond to the call, they find Tom Amoni in a black sedan parked just outside the cabin.

[995] He had fled north to Maine and just shy of the Canadian border.

[996] He decided he was going to break into a nearby cabin to rest.

[997] So he gets discovered at the cabin and he's arrested by Maine State Police for breaking and entering.

[998] But when they look him up in their system, they find that he's wanted for murder in Massachusetts.

[999] So the Maine police hand Tom over to the Massachusetts authorities.

[1000] And he's held.

[1001] in prison on a second -degree murder charge.

[1002] Okay.

[1003] So Tom Momoni's trial begins in 1993.

[1004] He sticks to his rogue wave story, asserting that he's an excellent sailor, and they tried his hardest to save Martha, but that ultimately he was no match for the sea.

[1005] This does not explain how Martha ended up with a weighted scuba belt around her waist and an anchor tied to her.

[1006] So it's kind of stupid that he thought he was just going to stick to his own line.

[1007] Totally.

[1008] Prosecutors put Rosemary Farmer on the stand and she testifies about her experience with Tom aboard his boat recounts how he made sexual advances toward her and about how unsafe she felt until he returned her to shore.

[1009] So the violence of this man like Rosemary Farmer basically came right up against that exact same situation and for some reason like he just didn't have the explosion that he had when Martha was on his boat.

[1010] so frightening.

[1011] Like, she just, she was right there with the exact same thing and was so scared.

[1012] She was going to jump overboard away from him.

[1013] That's so terrifying.

[1014] And there is a second unnamed woman who tells a similar story.

[1015] So basically, there is a pattern of Tom's predatory behavior.

[1016] And what Carrie told me, his Nana testified in this trial.

[1017] Yes.

[1018] The family went there and the Nana testified because.

[1019] Martha's dog, Rudy, was found tied up, like, I think at the docks or wherever, like, and basically, the Nana said she would have never left her dog for that long.

[1020] Yeah.

[1021] So, chances are it was like, jump on my boat will go around the harbor or something.

[1022] Like, she wasn't planning on having a sailing trip with him.

[1023] And she just tied her dog up.

[1024] Don't bring the dog.

[1025] Dogs aren't allowed because she probably knew that that dog would have fucking defended her.

[1026] Yes.

[1027] You know, I bet, right?

[1028] Good point.

[1029] Yes.

[1030] So the evidence against Tom is overwhelming.

[1031] The jury finds him guilty of second degree murder of Martha Brailsford, and he has sentenced to life in prison.

[1032] So in 2006, after 15 years in prison, Tom becomes eligible for parole.

[1033] And at his parole hearing, he again maintains the story about the rogue wave.

[1034] Dude.

[1035] But the board members don't buy it.

[1036] He's denied parole.

[1037] He returns to prison.

[1038] And over the course of the next few years, Tom.

[1039] defense himself at two more parole hearings his stories are riddled with lies and at one point tom even tries to pin the blame for martha's death on her husband brian so her husband brian has been in attendance for all of these hearings he calls out the ridiculousness of tom's claim saying tom should definitely be in prison for the rest of his life the poor man i know that's it's so horrible but the parole board agrees and with one board member even calling the proceedings an exercise in futility in his third and final attempt at parole in 2012 the parole board chair calls tom a pathological liar yeah it just it never worked i mean wasn't working it's almost i know this sounds crazy but it's almost good that he keeps his stupid fucking lie up because yes when you accept responsibility that's when parole is likely but if you keep if you take no responsibility and he keep bullshitting like you fucking are.

[1040] Yes.

[1041] Like no parole board.

[1042] Which is the classic move of a sociopath, which is I'm smarter than everybody.

[1043] I'm going to outsmart this.

[1044] I know what I'm doing.

[1045] And look how wronged I was or whatever.

[1046] Yes.

[1047] I'm the victim.

[1048] On Wednesday, October 18th, 2017, the now 72 -year -old Tom Maimoni succumbs to a chronic illness that he'd been battling for several months and he passes away at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston.

[1049] author Margaret Press, who wrote a book about the case entitled A Scream on the Water, A True Story of Murder in Salem, says this about Tom's death.

[1050] Quote, although his death won't undo any of the harm he caused, I hope that the families who were so tragically impacted by his life can now, in some small measure, put this sad chapter behind them.

[1051] And Carrie told me that there is a seashell water fountain in the town of Juniper Beach that was erected in Martha Burr.

[1052] Brailsford's memory, and that is the tragic story of the murder of Martha Brailsford and the powers of the high priestess of witches, Lori Caput.

[1053] Damn.

[1054] Right?

[1055] Yeah.

[1056] Why did you think you had done that one before?

[1057] That doesn't sound like anything you've done.

[1058] I don't know, because I'm losing it.

[1059] Because I'm very tired.

[1060] I feel like there was, maybe there was a story of a woman who was taken onto a boat and disappeared there was no obviously no witch uh which element or any anything like that we need more which element stories also just the idea where it's this woman who has powers and she's like yes i will help you apparently she helped the police after that was the first time they'd ever gone to her for to help and they went to her a couple times after that and she helped with other cases but the idea that it's like if you would like the idea that witches are like evil and this and that it's like no no they're very powerful women with vision and if you actually you know go to them with respect they could actually help you it's just like dreaming i feel like we've been burned our generation of because there were so many like psychics in the 80s who like came forward to try to help with these fucked up cases that they had no fucking business being even part of and it very like negatively impacted them in a lot of ways and there's a lot of bad people a lot of con men pretending to have gifts and doing it for the money and the psychic friends network and all that stuff that yeah so to hear a positive one where something actually took place that like helped everything and was correct i mean more than anything um it's very like it makes me it gives me good feelings what are those called me too happy me feeling it's yeah that might that might be the feeling of happiness or that kind of like you know I don't know that that kind of um because Carrie told me and it was after it was after Halloween and he was like you could have done it for Halloween and I was like shoot why didn't I why didn't I listen you it's so weird but I think it was just like that um I don't know and I think it's also really sensitive when people when it's like a friend of the family Carrie said that he and his mom were doing something one day he was one year old and he, they went to Martha's house to go pick something up or go look at something and his mom and Nana were some of the last people to see her alive.

[1061] Oh my God.

[1062] So I think I was afraid to do it wrong or to do it in a way that disrespectful or something when it's that close you know, people think it's a good idea but it's like you know it's a lot we're always careful about that we try to be but then you know it's like then we get distracted and we're talking about Pringles and it's like you know that's our well we're brain that's that's respectful of Pringles we're human also this you know what this made me think of it's unrelated but there's an antique store in Petaluma and one time I was looking through it and there they had a um this little white book and on the cover in like embossed gold writing it just said white magic and I didn't get it I think it's because I was broke at the time I would kill for the I mean because it looked old and it looked like a book of like white magic spells did I tell you that sounds amazing did I tell you that I stole a packet of tarot cards from a Barnes & Noble when I was in high school And then someone was like, that's bad luck.

[1063] You can't steal tarot cards.

[1064] And I was like, well, okay.

[1065] And then just left them on a table somewhere for someone else to find.

[1066] Someone's just burning sage all around.

[1067] It's fine if you find them from a fucking shitty delinquent teenager who stole them from a corporation.

[1068] Now I'm like, well, it was a corporation.

[1069] Shouldn't be selling tarot card.

[1070] It's all about that energy.

[1071] It was bad energy.

[1072] It was bad energy.

[1073] Get that energy going in a positive direction.

[1074] That's right.

[1075] Wow.

[1076] That was a, I feel like that was the best Thanksgiving episode we've ever done.

[1077] I don't remember any of the others, but I feel like, yeah, exactly.

[1078] I don't either, but I do feel like we just represented the heart of America and the best way possible.

[1079] And one of the things that are, the things that are good about this country, which is, we made one of the worst national holidays into something a little better.

[1080] We hope you have a wonderful.

[1081] day whatever way you celebrate, whatever you're doing.

[1082] Happy Thanksgiving.

[1083] Happy Thanksgiving.

[1084] Thanks for hanging out with us.

[1085] Yeah.

[1086] Deal with your family or don't.

[1087] It's up to you.

[1088] Or go get some Pringles and just be like, I've never had this flavor before.

[1089] Yeah.

[1090] What day is it?

[1091] It's Thursday.

[1092] Who fucking cares?

[1093] Yeah.

[1094] Also, stay sexy.

[1095] And don't get murdered.

[1096] Goodbye.

[1097] Yeah.

[1098] Yeah.

[1099] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1100] This has been an exactly right.

[1101] production.

[1102] Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1103] Associate producer Alejandra Keck.

[1104] Engineer and mixer.

[1105] Steven.

[1106] Ray Morris.

[1107] Researchers, Jay Elias and Haley Gray.

[1108] Send us your hometowns and your fucking hoorays at my favorite murder at gmail .com.

[1109] And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[1110] And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch, or to join the fan cold, go to my favorite murder .com.

[1111] Rate review and subscribe.

[1112] Thank you.