391 - Adult Hands and Adult Brain

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hardstark.

[3] Thank you.

[4] That's Karen Kilgareff.

[5] You're welcome.

[6] Here we are.

[7] Here we are.

[8] We are.

[9] I mean, they've tried to tell us we're not.

[10] But they're lying.

[11] I mean, we came back and we're like stronger than ever.

[12] We're like, what?

[13] We're here.

[14] It's another recording day.

[15] We are real.

[16] We clutched our pearls and we.

[17] said, how dare you?

[18] Can I ask you if you've seen the viral video of the woman who's on the plane and she goes, that motherfucker is not real.

[19] Did we ever find out what's going on with her?

[20] Because that wasn't drunk.

[21] That was like mushrooms.

[22] Or she wanted to get off the plane and she needed to make a stink.

[23] She's a great actress then because I fucking felt that in my bones.

[24] I don't know what context you saw it in, but the first video that I saw was, was somebody basically playing what she was saying and then panning over to some poor random dude who just had his hood up.

[25] Okay.

[26] Did you see that one where they're like, and then they basically say that his eyes blink the wrong way or something and that's who she's talking about?

[27] And it turns out, of course, she was not referring to that person.

[28] He was like across the aisle.

[29] She was pointing at someone else.

[30] She had already been making a problem.

[31] And the theory, the prevailing theory became, she just wanted to get off the plane.

[32] Huh.

[33] And she knew it was going to have to be a much bigger deal than just get me off this plane.

[34] But like, everything is filmed now.

[35] You have to know that everything is filmed.

[36] People are waiting for the next viral sensation, hashtag.

[37] Like, that's life now.

[38] It was like, do your best not to be the next viral sensation.

[39] That's right.

[40] For whatever reason.

[41] Unless it's saving a dog or a kitten, like, don't fucking.

[42] If you can do some sort of a pet, I found this.

[43] box of puppies in a gutter and now they're all mine.

[44] No, completely, but I just thought it was really funny because people are making references.

[45] Now it's, that's how quickly the turnover is now where you just hear someone go, that motherfucker.

[46] And then you just know.

[47] But then when everyone in the plane, when she said that and pointed, everyone turned around, like the camera panned behind and everyone like was like, who's not real?

[48] Yes.

[49] It was like a pretty good sociology study on like, what people will do.

[50] If you didn't turn your head, you're the one that's not real type of, you know, that's what the theories become.

[51] It's like, oh, well, if you're not reacting, then you're somehow guilty, whatever it is.

[52] But there was also a piece of it where, like, then people are trying to say, I was either there or I saw her before or you just, you watch how these things get played with on social media and the angles.

[53] There was one guy who made a whole thing saying he was on the plane.

[54] and kept posting videos and the whole thing was a prank.

[55] He was not on the plane he didn't know what he was talking about on purpose.

[56] I just feel like for our young listeners, they need to know that that's sometimes how acid can go bad.

[57] So, you know, it's all fun and games and you're in a field and it's like, we're all beautiful.

[58] Your friend lovingly suggest you take a Southwest flight somewhere and all of a sudden, you're up in the aisle, your bun is really tight, Your purse is slung over your shoulder.

[59] Like have a mentee be, a quick mentee be, as I like to say.

[60] If you can avoid having a mentee be in a closed situation, because that's the real problem.

[61] That's when the threat comes out is like, oh, it's us and everybody in the Costco hot dog area.

[62] Like, no one wants to be there with you.

[63] Oh, no. If you can have it in a field elsewhere, that's great.

[64] And the hot dog center at Costco is one of the most joyous places on this earth.

[65] So if you're having...

[66] Everyone's in a good mood.

[67] It's right.

[68] You're about to get a fucking, what, is it $1 .99 now?

[69] I felt like the reason my dad was such a great proponent of the Costco hot dog was because it was $1.

[70] Yeah.

[71] I could definitely be wrong.

[72] I will say over the weekend, Vince and I went to Berkeley to go see the band, my morning jacket and Fleet Foxes at the Berkeley Bowl.

[73] It was lovely.

[74] I met a bunch of great murderinos.

[75] At one point, we went to have a hot dog, speaking of hot dogs.

[76] We love hot dog stories.

[77] We love talking about hot dogs.

[78] And like maybe I'd had a couple stella's and it was dark.

[79] And so maybe I accidentally put triple the amount of ketchup and mustard on my hot dog.

[80] So if anyone walked by and saw me just like having a play fight of mustard and ketchup when I was trying to eat my hot dog, please forgive.

[81] Were you like drunk and like just loving condiments or was it purely an accident because you couldn't see very well?

[82] I got to say both.

[83] I don't think I realized how much shit I put on my hot dog.

[84] But, you know, I enjoyed it.

[85] I enjoyed it.

[86] So what have you got?

[87] What's going on with you?

[88] Do not much.

[89] So I think we really need to keep condiment talk.

[90] Condiment corner.

[91] Condiment corner.

[92] Condiment corner.

[93] That's what it is.

[94] It doesn't have to be hot dogs.

[95] We can switch around.

[96] So let's see.

[97] What condiments have I had?

[98] I'm still up here with my family because of the great hurricane of 20.

[99] 2003, where I just was like, oh, I just won't go back home until everything gets cleared.

[100] Turns out not that much happened in Los Angeles proper.

[101] It was a bust.

[102] It was a bust.

[103] Did you see the footage of Palm Springs where the tent is in Palm Springs was just, like, washed out?

[104] Like, complete mud.

[105] It's like the 10 ended right around Palm Springs.

[106] It looks crazy.

[107] And then an earthquake hit.

[108] I felt it.

[109] Did you feel it?

[110] How bad was it?

[111] It was a shaker.

[112] Like, it was a little, like, rumble.

[113] Like, I could see people not noticing it depending on the structure they're in, but we definitely felt a little fun, cute rumble.

[114] Nothing broke?

[115] Nothing.

[116] Oh, my God, no. It was almost like you were in a, like, massage chair.

[117] Like, you had put a quarter at the motel and the rumble bed, you know?

[118] It was not a big deal.

[119] It's weird when you're out of town for stuff like that.

[120] And I am often, but, like, the first video I saw was a wine store in Ohio that just, the floors were just covered in wine.

[121] Well, yeah, that was the central, right?

[122] As Oh, what a bummer.

[123] Fancy wines, you got to keep them behind glass, please.

[124] I have a book to talk about.

[125] Do it.

[126] Normally I wouldn't recommend a book until I'm done with it because I don't want to be tricked and it ends up with a terrible ending.

[127] It's all about the ending.

[128] I recommend it a poor book.

[129] You know what I?

[130] Sure.

[131] I love the premise so much and it's so entertaining.

[132] And it's an apocalyptic zombie style book, which I love.

[133] I know a lot of people love.

[134] And the premise, the hero of the book, humans turn into zombies and a domesticated crow named shit turd has to save the world.

[135] Wow.

[136] And it's like in his point of view, he's the narrator.

[137] He takes his like owner's dog and like sets out to try to like find people who aren't affected by this apocalypse and zombie apocalypse.

[138] And it's like, he's so clever and cute, and I love it so much.

[139] And you know how we love to do a book club.

[140] That's kind of our thing.

[141] Absolutely.

[142] So it's called Hollow Kingdom by Kira Jane Buxton.

[143] Hollow Kingdom.

[144] And I'm just enjoying it so much.

[145] I almost don't care what the ending is.

[146] I just wanted to suggest it.

[147] That's a good sign.

[148] If they got you that good in the beginning, you have reason to hope for the ending.

[149] And you know, like, all I want in my life is to be friends with a crow and an elephant.

[150] So, like.

[151] Oh, it's not real good TikTok today.

[152] It looked like a teenage elephant just kind of swimming around in the breakers on a beach where the water was really light blue.

[153] I want to be there.

[154] Yeah, it just looked very relaxing and the elephant was underwater most of the time.

[155] And you see his little trunk come up a little bit.

[156] It just looked like they were having a great time.

[157] Cute.

[158] I'm in the middle of a book, too, but I'm going to wait because I've been reserving my judgment as I've been reading.

[159] And I'm doing that thing where every night I go to bed thinking I need to wind down and then I wake up and it's five.

[160] in the morning and the light's still on and I've pretty much had a solid night's sleep.

[161] So it's going to take me as it usually does in six months to finish this book, I think.

[162] I feel like you and I meet in the middle where it's like by the time you have woken up from the accidental falling asleep, I have fallen asleep from the accidental staying up all fucking night.

[163] From your long stare at the ceiling and then whatever else you got to get into to get to that spot.

[164] Does it really take you a super long?

[165] time to go to sleep.

[166] Yeah, for sure.

[167] But it's fine.

[168] Whatever.

[169] Let's not talk about fucking condiments and insomnia and the same.

[170] But what if I bring it around for the trifecta magnesium?

[171] Have we talked about magnesium?

[172] Because it works.

[173] It does.

[174] You're right.

[175] It does.

[176] I believe in magnesium for real.

[177] And it also really helps with anxiety feelings.

[178] It does.

[179] Put that on your hot dog and see how you feel.

[180] Should we go to exactly right corner?

[181] Yeah.

[182] Hey, we have a podcast network called Exactly.

[183] right.

[184] And here's some highlights from it.

[185] In case you missed it, Infamous International, the Pink Panther story premieres on Exactly Right on Thursday, September 14th.

[186] Very excited.

[187] It's fascinating.

[188] It's amazing.

[189] It's so exciting that we're doing it.

[190] So head to the show's podcast feed and click follow so you don't miss it.

[191] And if you like the trailer, we'd love for you to give it a review.

[192] Definitely.

[193] Exactly Right's comedy podcasts are overflowing with hilarious stand -ups this week.

[194] comedian Sam J helps answer your questions on adulting with Michelle Boutot and Jordan Carlos, Nicole Beyer, who's absolutely one of the funniest people in the world.

[195] Super podcaster.

[196] Yeah, joins Ghosted by Raz Hernandez and Punky Johnson chats with the ladies of lady to lady.

[197] I mean, those are all like headliner, superstar hitter.

[198] Sam J is so funny.

[199] Lastly, in the MFM store, for $10, you can receive an exciting mystery shirt.

[200] You can just select your size, and then we're going to send you a surprise shirt for your back -to -school wardrobe.

[201] I didn't know that.

[202] I love that.

[203] What a great idea.

[204] It's so fun.

[205] I think that was an Aaron Brown special.

[206] Aaron Brown, killing it.

[207] My favorite murder .com.

[208] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[209] Absolutely.

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[228] Goodbye.

[229] I'm first, right?

[230] You are.

[231] So today I'm going to tell you about one of those stories you've probably seen on the late night listicles of, like, creepy stories that you don't know.

[232] And then they tell you a paragraph of them and then you still don't know.

[233] Yeah.

[234] So I'm going to tell you the story of one of those that you've probably seen.

[235] My story today is about the silent twins, June and Jennifer Gibbons.

[236] And this is a story about an extreme version of some fairly common issues in childhood development that combined.

[237] with racism and several other systemic failures to create a perfect storm within one British family.

[238] I have definitely heard of these twins and I've definitely read at least one article and elistical about them.

[239] There's the black and white photo of the, they're like four years old and they're these adorable little girls, you know, next to each other and you've definitely seen it.

[240] Main sources for this story are a 2000 New Yorker article by Hilton Al's called We made one, a 1994 BBC documentary, and a book called The Silent Twins by Marjorie Wallace.

[241] And the rest you can find in our show notes.

[242] So June, Gibbons, and Jennifer Gibbons are born on April 11, 1963 in Aden, which is now a part of Yemen, but at the time was a British colony.

[243] Their father, Aubrey Gibbons, is a staff technician in the Royal Air Force.

[244] he and his wife Gloria had immigrated from Barbados, which is another British colony with the twins, two older siblings, and then they were born.

[245] Twins were born.

[246] The family travels from post to post for Aubrey's job, never really finding a community anywhere.

[247] This is only partially because of the nature of being in the military, but also Caribbean immigrants to the UK in this time period were often met with racism and hostility from a country that didn't see them as true.

[248] true Britons.

[249] Right.

[250] The twins, as Gloria, their mother fondly called them, have a speech delay in toddlerhood, which I think is pretty normal.

[251] And they also share the same speech impediment.

[252] At the same time, the two girls are constantly communicating with each other in the language that no one else understands.

[253] I've read a couple articles about twins that do this when they know what the other one is saying as their toddler.

[254] So no one else gets it, but they get each other.

[255] I mean, that's so cool.

[256] As it says in my notes, this is somewhat common among twins and can be associated with additional speech delays down the line because they don't really have to communicate with anyone else or fully communicate themselves, right?

[257] They have like each other.

[258] Right.

[259] But now, of course, we have many more resources for speech therapy and treatment, especially in schools than we did back then.

[260] I mean, back then, you know.

[261] It's the 60s, right?

[262] You said?

[263] Yeah.

[264] It's like, you're fucked.

[265] In their early childhoods, the twins do speak to other people, their family members, but they get frustrated when people have a difficult time understanding them.

[266] In the 1994 documentary, Gloria, the mother, says, quote, when they knew we couldn't understand them, they went back into their shell.

[267] And June says, quote, we decided not to speak and we got into a habit of not speaking.

[268] So in 1971, when the girls are eight, the family moves to Devon, England.

[269] At the school there, the girls are teased relentlessly, mostly because they are the only black children there and june says quote people called us names we were the only black girls in school terrible names they pulled our hair unquote this causes the girls of course as bullying does to withdraw even more and this is when they make a pact not to speak to anyone else totally aren't on their side makes perfect sense yeah june says quote we said we weren't going to speak to anybody we stopped talking altogether, only us two in our bedroom upstairs.

[270] Hilton Ows, the journalist who wrote the article for The New Yorker writes, quote, Aubrey and Gloria, who are the parents, would sometimes hear the girls chattering to each other in their room.

[271] In a patois, they couldn't understand any more than they understood the girl's silence.

[272] The family moves again when the girls are 11, this time to a town called Haverford West in Wales.

[273] The same problems persist in school where the twins and the older brother are again the only black children.

[274] This is the fucking most heartbreaking thing you'll ever hear.

[275] The bullying is so merciless that the twins have to be dismissed five minutes early every day to give them a head start to get home.

[276] I mean, and so just nothing is done.

[277] Yeah.

[278] Like that's the solution.

[279] Bullying felt to me like up until 1995 or something, bullying was just like just accepted.

[280] It was just like, yeah, sorry to.

[281] bad.

[282] And looking back on it, the idea that children are just on a daily basis exposed to something like that.

[283] And then it's like, well, we'll just adjust your schedule.

[284] That's the solution.

[285] Also, just this profound misunderstanding of what affects children and how it affects you as a child.

[286] Totally.

[287] And like, no understanding of what bullying is and why children do it and how it stopped.

[288] Like, there's just no, there's nothing.

[289] Yeah.

[290] So the twins do.

[291] speak to their younger sister Rosie, who shares their bedroom.

[292] They play dolls, and they also make their own dolls and create richly imagined worlds for them.

[293] Rosie is given the job of recording births and deaths in the doll world.

[294] Oh, yeah.

[295] The girls often record themselves narrating the dramas of their dolls live on a tape recorder, and at this point in the recordings with Rosie, they are speaking plain English.

[296] According to June, she and her sister say prayers every day that their silence would not hurt their parents' feelings.

[297] And they pray for the strength to start talking, but that is too hard for them.

[298] It's just like so sad.

[299] Like you make a decision and then it's like this psychological obsession.

[300] And it's a thing that you already have an issue with in the best case scenario.

[301] Right.

[302] But then you're supposed to go out into a world and try out a thing that you're worried about to an overtly hostile world.

[303] Totally.

[304] The school, of course, doesn't take my...

[305] action regarding the girl's silence.

[306] The girls never break any rules.

[307] June does very well in English and well enough in a lot of other subjects.

[308] Jennifer struggles more academically, but they both do the work and generally behave, which I think was like, that's the status quo.

[309] If you're not making trouble, like you're just going to pass right through and no one's going to pay attention to you, even if you need help, you know.

[310] Right.

[311] Yeah.

[312] The school's reaction, which is basically a shrug, also stems from racism, one teacher refers to the twins' secret language as a, quote, African dialect, even though the twins have only ever lived in the UK or its territories and are of Caribbean descent.

[313] This all changes when the girls are 13 in 1976 when a doctor comes to the school to administer tuberculosis vaccines.

[314] So the doctor is so upset and disturbed by the twins' silence and non -reactions to the shots, like they have blank faces that he asked to speak with the school's headmaster and then to the girls' parents.

[315] So finally, someone's fucking paying attention.

[316] Yeah.

[317] Although there is a note in my research from Allie that the doctor, just the doctor's not a saint.

[318] He also is racist based on the way he tells the story and the words he uses.

[319] So it's, you know, the nomenclature.

[320] Right before they turn 14, the girls begin treatment with a speech therapist.

[321] They refuse to speak to her.

[322] but they do allow her to record them when she's not in the room.

[323] And when the speech therapist captures their secret language and slows down the recording, she can tell that the girls are speaking English with some Barbadian slang.

[324] And they're just talking very quickly.

[325] So it's kind of their language they've created.

[326] Almost everyone who observes the twins during their childhood describes Jennifer as the leader.

[327] June looks to her before taking any kind of action.

[328] The speech therapist will later.

[329] tell Marjorie Wallace, their biographer, quote, I could see June dying to tell me things, then something would happen.

[330] Jennifer was stopping June.

[331] She never moved.

[332] I watched and could barely detect the slightest eye movement, but I know she was stopping June.

[333] So Jennifer was kind of in charge.

[334] And June will later corroborate this and refer to it as eye language.

[335] Which is like, yeah, you know someone well enough.

[336] Yes.

[337] And you sometimes, especially probably in the environments they were forced into, you would have to have that kind of like silent communication you're forced to.

[338] Totally.

[339] It's like really empathetic and sensitive people are just constantly reading other people's signs and it's your sister and you rely on her for communication and trust.

[340] Of course, you're going to pick up on any fucking subtle movement.

[341] Like, don't talk to anyone.

[342] Right.

[343] And don't trust anyone.

[344] And more importantly, like there's a safety factor with everything they do that I'm sure any of those people that would come in to quote unquote help them are not considering their experience at all totally totally when the twins eat or drink they do so very slowly coordinating their movements so they are taking bites and sips in unison the twins are transferred to a boarding school for special education marjorie wallace's account says their parents were glad to see the girls finally getting some treatment and attention while the BBC documentary and it seems like this is true, say the parents really weren't consulted much on the decision.

[345] And it's kind of a, you know, both are true scenario where it's like, here's what's happening next.

[346] Back then there wasn't any, like, you know, we're going to try to understand the whole family unit.

[347] It's like, here's the diagnosis and here's, you know, what's going to happen.

[348] Right.

[349] So while at the boarding school, the girls work closely with a teacher named Kathy Arthur and the idea of separating them comes up.

[350] This is something the twins themselves have thought about.

[351] They each write letters to Kathy asking to be separated and sent to different schools.

[352] The teachers and therapists tell the twins to decide which one of them will stay at the current school and which one will go to a new school.

[353] Essentially, it leads to huge fights, like the girls' first fights together.

[354] And in the days leading up to the separation, the girls then become terrified about it.

[355] And in the end, because June seems more open to communication, you know, the one who isn't in control as much.

[356] She sent to the other school and the girls thought this would be helpful.

[357] They were actually looking forward to a little bit, although they were nervous, but in practice, it doesn't actually work.

[358] June refuses to speak, to eat, to dress herself, or even to get out of bed at the new school.

[359] June's despair and distress are so great that the separation is called off.

[360] I mean, I can't imagine you're a teenager at this point.

[361] You've loved your whole life with this connection.

[362] Just seems terrifying.

[363] Yeah.

[364] And that you would think if you have to only talk to one person only deal with one person the urge to do something different would be really strong but the reality of that what coping mechanisms would you have in place to deal with it when you've right this human being it has been your coping mechanism probably this whole time so the girls finish school at 16 and they move back into their home into their bedroom they share they don't feel like they can interact with the outside world they're desperate to connect with it from their bedroom they write to pen pals all over the world and just peer out the window with binoculars trying to see what's going on they buy typewriters and take correspondence courses one is so heartbreakingly the art of conversation and another course they take is a creative writing course and they enroll jointly as one student which is like so telling.

[365] The girls decide that they will be novelist, and this way they can communicate with the outside world and also make their family proud of them.

[366] So they write prolifically, each churning out several novels.

[367] They pay to have one of June's bound and publish and also submit to traditional publishing houses, but they don't get any traction.

[368] And in this period, they also keep detailed diaries.

[369] So at 18, the summer of 1981, the girls decided they must have some interaction with the outside world.

[370] So they're enamored with an American boy from their boarding school.

[371] He's already joined the Navy and moved away, but his three brothers still live in town.

[372] So at first, the twins repeatedly break into the brother's house and ransack their bedrooms.

[373] Like, this is the kind of, you know, interaction that they understand, unfortunately.

[374] Well, if they skip down on everything else, they haven't seen any other kind of like teen interaction to base anything on.

[375] And it's almost like, that's a really great kind of acting out of the feeling you have when you're like, oh, if a courage on you, I'm just going to break everything about you.

[376] I want to know everything about you.

[377] I want to know you.

[378] I'm just going to go, I'm just going to go ballistic and just destroy.

[379] But did they ransack their rooms?

[380] Or did they just kind of go through everything and leave it messy?

[381] Yeah, probably that.

[382] Because, yeah, it's just like, I want to see your stuff.

[383] I want to like figure you out.

[384] Yeah.

[385] I mean, I went through all my fucking family shit when I was that age, you know, or no, when I was way younger.

[386] I would like, what's in this drawer of my mom's, whatever.

[387] Those nightstand drawers, they held everything.

[388] Go over a friend's house and do it to like, let's look through your mom's stuff.

[389] I remember my mom, me walking into my parents' bedroom, my mom's standing there, and the nightstand drawers up, and she goes, what are you looking for?

[390] It's just like a copy of jaws and some old lipstick and, you know, there's nothing in there.

[391] one time my friend and I went through her mom's stuff and we found like what I now understand was like a gag gift from someone like maybe to celebrate her divorce or whatever like knowing that like you don't actually use those kinds of toys as a right you know just as a casual Monday night it's just it was just like a kit of like we were both just blown away and kind of just like casually put it back and walk away to watch like you know, Clarissa explains it all because it just didn't.

[392] With the weird feeling of like, is that what you have to do?

[393] Well, my, do I have to do that?

[394] It doesn't look like it feels good.

[395] I don't know if I'm ready for those fur handcuffs.

[396] Exactly.

[397] Shit like that.

[398] Okay.

[399] They never had any real social contact and they're intensely curious.

[400] The boy's father catches them but feels badly when they don't respond to any of his questions and so just lets them go kind of understanding what's going on.

[401] The girls keep coming back.

[402] and then they start actually meeting up with the boys and start experimenting with sex and drugs and alcohol and under the influence something really surprising happens which is that the girls can talk I mean who among us right I mean hello that is what wine coolers are for it's called a crutch and that's what you use it for it's called social lubrication or whatever where suddenly it's not that you're more interesting it's just just you don't give a shit anymore You're willing to risk it.

[403] Oh, my God.

[404] It's such a bummer.

[405] Yeah.

[406] It's so hard.

[407] But, wait, it sounds like those boys were kind of nice, like that they were like, hey, instead of going through our underwear drawer, why don't we all just go drink in the field or something?

[408] You know how it is with those, like, boys you grew up with, but then just like suddenly become, you know, this experimental fun time, hang out with, you know.

[409] Yeah.

[410] You know.

[411] What are you accusing me of?

[412] so what if I know it didn't mean specifically you I meant one one knows oh sorry yeah of course what are you hiding from me so the girls at the time fought with each other sometimes violently in their diaries they would often write about their feelings of competitiveness with each other or a sense that the other twin has bad intentions and their relationship with the boys only makes this competitiveness and this desperation to separate from each other worse.

[413] At the end of the summer, the boys go back to America, and so losing their only connection to the outside world breaks the twins' hearts, and they begin to act out.

[414] Throughout the fall, they ring doorbells and steal bicycles.

[415] They start acting up, you know, as bored teens do.

[416] Then they start vandalizing property, smashing windows, and drawing graffiti, and they move on to arson and the twins burned down a tractor store.

[417] Oh.

[418] Yeah.

[419] So they just like start berserking.

[420] In her diary, June writes about setting the fire saying, quote, it's been a long, painful, hard year.

[421] Don't I deserve to express my distress?

[422] Yes, you do.

[423] Yes.

[424] But like clearly she's not had the social norms that, you know, that she should have had, that she deserved to have.

[425] And it's interesting to be able to be so accurate about those feelings, but then be like, and now I'm going to act out with arson, which is just like, oh, no. Most kids would be like, I'm mad and I'm doing this, but she's like, the reason I am doing this is because I want to express my distress.

[426] Like, that's very attuned.

[427] Attuned.

[428] Yeah, totally.

[429] So they don't get caught for the fire right away, but on November 18th, 1981, the twins are caught smashing windows at a technical college and they're arrested.

[430] And the police search their rooms and find their diaries, which confirm that they've been the culprits behind the rash of vandalism in town, which is why you should never keep a true diary, you know?

[431] For real.

[432] All lies in those books, please.

[433] Keep that shit in your head.

[434] And it confirms that they are the ones who burn down the tractor store.

[435] So this is when all hell breaks loose.

[436] The twins are sent to jail for seven months awaiting their trial and they are held together.

[437] and while there, their desire to break free of each other deepens.

[438] They each write in their diaries, word that the other is plotting to kill the other.

[439] And Hilton Al's describes it like this, writing, quote, when they were together, they wanted to kill each other, when they were apart, they were so lonely, they wanted to die.

[440] Oh, God.

[441] And then when they were reunited, they were disappointed and imagined that they had felt stronger alone, end quote.

[442] So complicated.

[443] Yeah.

[444] So one psychiatrist hired by their defense team witnesses the girls fighting with each other and diagnoses them with psychopathic personality disorder.

[445] He recommends that they be sent to Broadmoor, a high security psychiatric hospital, and his rationale is that no other hospitals will accept arsonists.

[446] So the fact that they were arsonists made it so that they had to go to one of Britain's most notorious maximum security hospital.

[447] Yeah.

[448] So you've heard abroad more for sure.

[449] And you, yeah, so like Marjorie Wallace, their biographer, says, quote, rapists, child molesters, poisoners, stranglers, arsonists, and mass murderers are among the 500 inhabitants.

[450] She says, quote, the 40 foot brick walls spill over the hilltop like a fortified town designed not to keep invaders out, but inhabitants in.

[451] And so I looked it up and there was a, like, notable prisoners.

[452] A Jack the Ripper suspect named James Kelly stayed there.

[453] And Peter Settcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper piece of shit, stayed there.

[454] And he survived multiple attempts on his life by other inmates while there.

[455] And also, Jimmy Seville was a volunteer and on the board at Broadmoor.

[456] Yeah.

[457] Oh, that fucking guy.

[458] That piece of fucking shit creep.

[459] guy.

[460] He should have been there.

[461] He should have been a patient there and instead he was volunteering to molest people.

[462] Right.

[463] This is where he committed many of the actual acts of sexual abuse that later came to light.

[464] But it doesn't look like the twins had any interaction with him, which is fucking a godsend.

[465] So he was volunteering there at the same time they were there.

[466] Uh -huh.

[467] I mean, so sorry.

[468] So basically they qualified to be sent there because of the arson.

[469] Right.

[470] The arson was the culprit that, like, led them there, unfortunately.

[471] But there's no other mental health facilities anywhere else to be sent to.

[472] Not if you're an arsonist.

[473] Ugh.

[474] I know.

[475] They're brought to Broadmoor about a month after their 19th birthday.

[476] And the twin psychologist, Tim Thomas, vehemently disagrees with the idea of sending the girls to Broadmoor.

[477] He says, quote, the youngest person at Broadmoor at that time was 27.

[478] And they're 19.

[479] they were putting a label on these children.

[480] That is what I thought they were as psychopaths.

[481] How the hell can you decide that somebody has a mental health problem as serious as that if you don't communicate with them?

[482] He says, had they been white and middle class, the outcome would have been different.

[483] Yes.

[484] Obvious.

[485] Similar first -time offenders, the girls' age would typically get a very short sentence, if any.

[486] But the girls are pressure to plead guilty and are sent to Broadmoor for an indetermined.

[487] permanent amount of time.

[488] So, like, that's the thing about mental health facilities when they send them there.

[489] They don't have to, like, give them, you know, 20 to life or whatever the fuck they would normally.

[490] Also, I'm just making this up, obviously, but I just imagine if you burnt down a tractor store, that's someone in the community's business, that they have lost their business.

[491] And the rage there, which may or may not have been partially fueled by racist feelings, is like, lock them up and throw away the key vibes.

[492] And they're 18.

[493] they're adults like you can't get away with shit like that right but there's treatment that needs to be had it's you know right wow only days after their arrival at broadmore june attempts to take her own life though doctors have promised not to prescribe them any medications both girls are put on strong antipsychotics in jennifer's case the medication causes blurred vision and makes it hard for her to read or write can you fucking imagine psychotropics in the feck in 80s and 90s.

[494] And the one way you express yourself and actually get those feelings out, and you can't do it.

[495] Right.

[496] So at least 10 years pass.

[497] Every few years to twins ask to be released.

[498] And every few years, the doctors decide that they need another year or two.

[499] This persists even though the twins start talking and socializing to some extent while they are in Broadmoor.

[500] June describes this saying, quote, juvenile delinquents get two years in prison.

[501] We got 12 years of hell because we didn't speak.

[502] We had to work hard to get out.

[503] We went to the doctor.

[504] We said, look, they wanted us to talk.

[505] We're talking now.

[506] He said, you're not getting out.

[507] You're going to be here for 30 years.

[508] We lost hope, really.

[509] I wrote a letter to the home office.

[510] I wrote a letter to the queen asking her to pardon us to get us out, but we were trapped, end quote.

[511] That's a nightmare.

[512] The twin's father said that he and his wife were misled about the amount of time their daughters would be hospitalized for.

[513] He said, quote, we never expected them to be imprisoned all those years.

[514] So right around the time the twins had been sent to Broadmoor, the author and biographer Marjorie Wallace had become acquainted with their case.

[515] And the twins' parents allow her access to their diaries.

[516] And while the twins are at Broadmoor, Marjorie begins visiting them and advocating for their release through her initial articles.

[517] Other people in the mental health community join in on her calls, pointing to the failures in the judicial and health care system that have led to the girls languishing in the hospital for so long.

[518] And some pressure finally begins to build with all this attention.

[519] But the pressure is also building within the twins' relationship.

[520] They have long believed that if one were to die, one of the twins were to die, the other would be finally free to fully become a part of the outside world.

[521] Like that's the only way for them to separate in a healthy manner is if one of them dies.

[522] Toward the end of their 10 -year stay at Rodmore, the twins, who are now almost 30, become preoccupied with which one of them will die first, and they talk and fight about it a lot.

[523] They go back and forth between wanting to be the twin that dies versus the twin that survives.

[524] And these conversations intensify when the twins learn that in the coming months, they will be transferred to a lower security hospital in Wales closer to their family.

[525] So they're almost like, this is the plan now.

[526] In January of 93, Jennifer writes in her diary, quote, I have at long last conquered my fear of death.

[527] And now I am no longer a baby but a woman.

[528] And the twins meet with Marjorie Wallace, the writer, shortly before they leave Broadmoor.

[529] At that meeting, Jennifer says, quote, I'm going to die, unquote.

[530] And Marjorie asked her how she knows that.

[531] She answers saying, I just know.

[532] So like something's going on.

[533] The day of the transfer is set for March 9th, 1983, and in the days leading up to the transfer, Jennifer doesn't feel well.

[534] She complains that she's feeling weak and tired, and she doesn't eat much.

[535] On the day of the transfer, both girls board a van that will drive them from Broadmoor to the hospital in Wales.

[536] On the drive, Jennifer seems tired.

[537] She rests her head on June's shoulder.

[538] When they stop at a gas station, Jennifer is asleep and she won't wake up.

[539] And when the van arrives at the hospital in Wales that evening, Jennifer can't walk or talk.

[540] Her condition deteriorates and she dies about a half an hour after arriving at the hospital.

[541] So Jennifer's cause of death is found to be acute myocarditis, which is an inflammation of the heart, which is rarely fatal.

[542] The cause of the inflammation is never determined.

[543] Some doctors believe the high doses of medication Jennifer received at Broadmoor may have weakened her heart, June received similar doses and was in good health.

[544] So it's this kind of weird mystery of how she knew she was going to die, and then days later died.

[545] Yeah.

[546] Very odd.

[547] That day June writes in her diary, quote, Today, my beloved twin sister, Jennifer died.

[548] She is dead.

[549] Her heart stopped beating.

[550] She will never recognize me. Mom and dad came to see her body.

[551] I kissed her stone -colored face.

[552] I went hysterical with grief.

[553] Oh.

[554] So June is released from the hospital.

[555] a year later and goes on to live a quiet life in West Wales near her family.

[556] She's able to become a part of the local community, although she generally prefers to have privacy.

[557] At the same time, she still maintains a close relationship with her biographer Marjorie Wallace.

[558] June is now going professionally by June, Alison Givens, and has very recently re -released one of her early novels called The Pepsi Cola Addict.

[559] Wow.

[560] And that is the story of the silent twins, June, and Jennifer Gibbons.

[561] Okay, here's what gets me about this story is that every time I've kind of scandalistical where they kind of try to synopsize this story because the world we live in, you know, up until very recently, has been essentially whitewashed.

[562] So it's like mystery twins, mystery language, something was going on between them.

[563] Who knows what the problem was?

[564] And then one dies knowing she's going to die.

[565] The entire back.

[566] They're so crucial to the story is about like the effects of racial discrimination and how it actually impacts children, people that have to deal with it every single day.

[567] Childhood trauma, yeah.

[568] That piece of the story that just is not ever included because we're just trying to ride a listicle everybody.

[569] Right.

[570] There was something wrong with them.

[571] It's not like society worsened whatever was going on.

[572] It's like, no. It's the white lens of whatever could be going on here.

[573] Yeah.

[574] Because you don't experience it.

[575] It just makes you crazy because then that's the Florida thing of like, we're not going to teach history.

[576] We're going to erase history.

[577] And you're not allowed to talk about it.

[578] Where it's like, but then how are we ever going to get the context right?

[579] How is anyone ever going to understand?

[580] And how are we going to learn and grow if you don't pay attention to the things that came before you?

[581] Well, that was great.

[582] I mean, I'm so glad to like finally have learned the whole story because that was always the feeling is just like there's got to be more to this.

[583] There's like obviously so much more going on.

[584] Great job.

[585] Thank you.

[586] All right.

[587] Well, turning left as we do in this podcast, I'm going to tell you a story today that starts in the middle of the afternoon on March 7, 1983.

[588] Okay.

[589] And a high security bank in Massachusetts.

[590] A bank.

[591] So today the staff, of course, is expecting an armored vehicle to arrive for the usual cash pickup.

[592] And then just ahead of schedule, three older uniformed guards enter the building and approach the teller.

[593] So the age of these guards does stand out to the bank employees because usually the guards are younger, but not enough to cause concern.

[594] But then when the guards approach to get buzzed into the vault where the cash is to pick up, the on -shift manager notices something.

[595] And that's that two of the guards are wearing obviously fake mustache.

[596] Come on, guys.

[597] is it that they didn't use glue and they're just kind of coming up off their lip was it the shape i mean the technology for the glue back then i mean nowadays you can't wear fake eyelashes without them fucking coming off halfway through the night can you imagine back then i mean they must have been rolling up in the car ride over and also just that feeling where this bank manager's just trying to get through his day he's just like come on guys what is this so then the bank manager looks out into the parking lot and that's what he notices no armored vehicle is parked out there so he asks these three guards to show their work IDs and that's when the one guard who's wearing a hearing aid flashes a gun and calmly announces this is a holdup so then they order everyone out of the bank then they lock the bank manager and the tellers up in the bank office and they take all the cash they actually flee the scene with nearly $500 ,000, which in today's money is over.

[598] Oh, do you want to guess?

[599] It's going to be at least $2 million.

[600] It's $1 .5.

[601] Damn it.

[602] I know.

[603] So they get all this done in minutes, and once they leave, they all just disappear.

[604] So the FBI's called in, and they figure out who is responsible for this robbery almost immediately because it's a band of notorious thieves, who've been hitting a bunch of banks and stores around the country, the cops have started calling them the over -the -hill gang because they're all old.

[605] And what the FBI doesn't realize is that the mastermind behind these heists, and that's the one with the hearing aid, is actually kind of a legend.

[606] I'm about to tell you the story of notorious bank robber and escape artist, Forrest Tucker.

[607] Yes.

[608] So the sources used in this story today are a 2003 New Yorker, article by a writer named David Grant, titled The Old Man in the Gun, and a 2018 Treasure Coast News article by Greg and Alice Luckhart entitled Forrest Silva Tucker, Life of a Criminal.

[609] And the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

[610] Okay, so I'll tell you about his early life.

[611] Forrest Tucker's born in June 1920 in Miami, Florida, and his parents Leroy and Carmen are struggling to make ends meet.

[612] And then when Forrest is only six years old, his father leaves the family.

[613] Carmen can't provide for the household with just her small income.

[614] And so she's forced to send Forrest to live with his grandmother Ellen in Stewart, Florida, which is a hundred miles north of Miami.

[615] And actually, Forrest grows into a very crafty and creative child at his grandmother's house.

[616] He is excellent at making things out of scrap metal and wood.

[617] He actually at one point builds himself a canoe that as a child he builds a canoe that's so well constructed that it actually works it actually floats which if you think about that that is not an easy thing to do no i couldn't do it now and i have adult hands hell no and an adult brain it would be a weird box and that would immediately sink yeah forest also teaches himself how to play multiple instruments, including the saxophone and the clarinet.

[618] So as the Great Depression hits in 1929, Forrest is around nine years old.

[619] He's never had much in his life before.

[620] Now, of course, things get worse.

[621] And he starts hearing about these famous outlaws of the time like John Dillinger and Ma Barker, who we talked about on this show.

[622] And to Forrest and so many other frustrated Americans during the Great Depression, all of these crimbled.

[623] Crimbles.

[624] These specific crumbles.

[625] That sounds like a British treat.

[626] Oh, wouldn't you love a crumbull right now with a nice...

[627] I can really go for a crumbull.

[628] With a nice tea.

[629] These criminals...

[630] Uh -huh.

[631] Wait, sorry, really quick.

[632] You know, remember when I said Winnie the Pear?

[633] Yes.

[634] Somebody drew a picture of Winnie the Pear that's just Winnie the Pooh that's pear shaped on the bottom.

[635] Oh, I love it.

[636] So funny.

[637] That's hilarious.

[638] So these criminals, they symbolize rebellion and basically sticking it to the man, which everybody wanted to do at the time.

[639] And so inspired by their exploits, Forrest starts getting into trouble himself.

[640] When he's 16 years old, he gets arrested for stealing a car and just going on a joyride.

[641] So he's handcuffed, he's taken to jail, he's put in a holding cell, and a little while later he's moved from that cell into an interrogation room.

[642] But that's when he sees his chance.

[643] He basically sprints out of that room.

[644] He makes it out of the police station and he just runs away.

[645] Goodbye.

[646] Right?

[647] This will be one of the many escapes that Forrest Tucker will make throughout his life and the first of many captures because the police find him a few days later hiding out in a nearby citrus grove just eaten oranges, just shoving his mouth full of oranges.

[648] What was the plan there?

[649] No plan with the car?

[650] He's just doing it all to say, fuck you.

[651] He's trying not to get scurvy and not to get caught in that second it.

[652] I mean, if you're super poor, it's the depression, everything's difficult, and then you run away and then you suddenly are like, what's that wonderful smell?

[653] Wait, what are these things around me?

[654] And you're just like surrounded by oranges.

[655] That's rad.

[656] Sustodant.

[657] He's like, I have to keep going, but real quick, I'm going to eat 29 oranges.

[658] Okay, so the officers take for us back to the station.

[659] They put him in a cell.

[660] But what they don't realize is while he was on the lamb, he had picked up a couple hacksaw blades and he had crept back over to the police station and slipped through the small windows of the jail.

[661] Almost like, here's the one part of the plan that he did have was he knew he was going back.

[662] He knew he wasn't going to be able to get away entirely.

[663] Wow.

[664] So on his first night back in jail, he gets together with a couple inmates and they grabbed the hacksaws cut through the bars on the windows and one by one squeeze.

[665] themselves through and to skate.

[666] Goodbye part two.

[667] This one is even faster than the last one.

[668] According to David Grand from the New Yorker, Forrest and one of his jailed friends are found an hour later in a nearby river.

[669] And the quote is that they were quote, hiding with just their noses above the water.

[670] That's a fucking cartoon.

[671] It's kind of Dennis the Menacee.

[672] Oh, my God.

[673] Capers.

[674] Tons of capers.

[675] So after being arrested for a third time Forrest is shipped off to a very strict reform school, and he will later tell David Gran, quote, the guards would give you the first three days to let you get your hands broken in with calluses, but after that, the walking boss would punish you, hit you with his cane or fist.

[676] And if you didn't work hard enough, the guards would take you into the bathroom, tie your hands behind your back, put a pressure hose in your face, and hold it there until you'd sputter and couldn't breathe.

[677] What the fuck?

[678] And how old was he at this point?

[679] He was a teenager.

[680] He was like 16.

[681] Oh, my God.

[682] Yeah, he was being waterboarded at this quote -unquote reform school.

[683] So, safe to say that he was traumatized by going there.

[684] So that adds to his growing resentment for authority figures.

[685] What it definitely doesn't do is straighten Forrest out, quite the opposite.

[686] When he's released six months later, he goes right back to stealing cars and taking them for joy rides.

[687] And this continues into the 40s as he enters.

[688] his 20s, he's now in a consistent loop of stealing cars, going to prison, getting released, and then just doing it all over again.

[689] So now he's basically developing a kind of compulsion around breaking the law.

[690] But he is not a villain by any means.

[691] And by most accounts, he's extremely charming.

[692] His eyes are described as quite piercing.

[693] He's said to be extremely polite.

[694] He is quite the showman.

[695] And when he's not stealing cars, force plays the saxophone at clubs around South Florida and women absolutely adore him.

[696] Come on.

[697] He's a Renaissance man. He's just fun times.

[698] So he's fun.

[699] I mean, it's cool if you know how to hotwire a car.

[700] I'm sorry.

[701] I'm sorry, the law.

[702] That's real.

[703] Sorry, it's kind of sexy, the law.

[704] The law.

[705] So by his mid -20s, Forrest seems very aware of who he is and who he wants to be, which is an all -American outlaw.

[706] So even though his favorite Depression era outlaw heroes have almost all been brought to justice, Forrest reportedly, quote, began to imitate their style, dressing in chalk -striped suits and two -tone shoes, end quote.

[707] And then in 1950, 30 -year -old Forrest decides to escalate his criminal career.

[708] That September, he ties a bandana around his face.

[709] He walks into a Miami bank, goes up to the counter, and with his bright eyes beaming, he politely addresses the teller and calmly announces that he intends to rob the bank.

[710] To make sure his message is relayed, he very quickly shows off the gun on his hip.

[711] So Forrest leaves that bank with around $1 ,300, which is $16 ,000 and today's stolen money.

[712] Today's stolen.

[713] But even though this is a real success for a first bank heist, he has this nagging feeling that the job wasn't done fully.

[714] So days later, he goes back to the same bank and robs it again.

[715] Like, give me the rest, motherfuckers.

[716] Yeah.

[717] I know you have more in here.

[718] You're a Thank.

[719] This time, he makes off with an entire safe.

[720] But he's captured almost immediately after being spotted trying to open the safe with a blowtorch on the side of the road.

[721] Yeah, what is crappening, dude?

[722] Sir, at least take it to the citrus grove where you would have some privacy.

[723] So he's arrested, convicted, and sent to prison.

[724] But he doesn't stay behind bars for long.

[725] He will later say, quote, it didn't matter to me if they gave me five years, 10 years, or life.

[726] I was an escape artist end quote so forrest spends his time studying the prison for what he calls the weak spot and then in late december of 1950 just a few weeks into his sentence forest grabs his stomach he howls in pain prison staffers take him to the local hospital his appendix is removed and then while he's recovering from the operation he pulls a harry houdini no this is from david grand's new yorker article says quote chained to his bed he started to work on the shackles he had taught himself how to pick a lock using almost anything a pen a paper clip a piece of wire nail clippers a watch spring and after a few minutes he walked out unnoticed end quote um minus one appendix he would later say that his appendix was quote a small price to pay i mean you know you got a sacrifice sure so when he escapes the hospital, Forrest decides to head west where no one knows him and he settles in California where he continues to rob banks in style.

[727] He reportedly carries out these heists wearing bright checkered suits.

[728] He even finds a partner in crime named Richard Ballou who appreciates old school outlaws in the same way Forrest does.

[729] So for the next two years, the two men hit bank after bank up and down California wearing their sharp suits and sparkling shoes and they're grabbing headlines as they go.

[730] The unidentified duo are described as both scary and impressive.

[731] Journalists report about the, quote, armed men who terrorize their victims in dramatic attire.

[732] Some even call them, quote, hold -up artists.

[733] There's so much coverage of these crimes, it actually pulls attention away from the 1952 presidential election cycle and from the McCarthy hearings.

[734] So it was very big news in California.

[735] Yeah.

[736] These fashionistas were holding up banks.

[737] But then in 1953, after more than two years on the loose, the FBI finally arrests Forrest while he's robbing a bank in San Francisco.

[738] And so while he's being booked at the police station, the FBI decides to search his apartment in nearby San Mateo.

[739] Their investigators are surprised to be greeted at the door by a young woman holding an infant in her arms.

[740] Oh, shit.

[741] The thought pliccans.

[742] She says her name is Shirley.

[743] And when they ask if she knows a Forrest Tucker, she's adamant that she's never heard that name before.

[744] When the agents ask about her husband, Shirley says he's a successful songwriter named Richard, but he isn't home at the moment.

[745] So they pull out a mugshot of Forrest and ask her if the man pictured is her husband and she begins to cry and says, yes, it is.

[746] Shirley's absolutely shocked to learn that her husband and the father of their child is actually a career criminal.

[747] She tells the agents, quote, I can't believe it.

[748] He was such a good man. He was such a good provider.

[749] Yeah, because he robbed bank.

[750] Yeah, that's right.

[751] He should have been, like, suspicious of that that he's a musician that's a good provider.

[752] Who's like, that doesn't really happen often.

[753] A musician that has bags of money, literal canvas bags of money.

[754] Oh, he's not Lady Gaga?

[755] Then he's probably full of shit.

[756] He is the richest clarinetist in all of California.

[757] So when Forrest has sent back to prison, Shirley annuls their marriage and raises their baby without him.

[758] And much later, Forrest has sent back to prison, Shirley annuls their baby without him.

[759] will express deep regret about betraying his wife.

[760] He says, quote, we loved each other.

[761] I didn't know how to explain to her the truth that this was my way of life, end quote.

[762] Yikes.

[763] He was passionately dedicated to breaking the law.

[764] So in September of 1953, the now 33 -year -old Forrest Tucker is sent to Alcatraz.

[765] We've had lots of conversations about Alcatraz.

[766] So to police and prosecutors, it was the perfect fit for Forrest.

[767] build at the time as an escape -proof prison.

[768] The now infamous Alcatraz is built on an island surrounded by the freezing cold water and extremely dangerous currents of the San Francisco Bay.

[769] But as is his nature, Forrest Tucker arrives ready to test that claim.

[770] Oh, shit.

[771] Right?

[772] So right after he gets there, he meets another inmate named Teddy Green, who is also a seasoned bank robber with a knack for clever escapes.

[773] Teddy was known for once breaking out a prison.

[774] and by packing himself into a shipping box and getting mailed out.

[775] Clever.

[776] Very clever.

[777] If you had to do something, right?

[778] Yeah, I mean, it's almost like show their weaknesses, you know?

[779] He did them a favor.

[780] Yeah.

[781] I mean, you have all day to think it through.

[782] Yeah.

[783] So you're just like, hmm.

[784] And also it's back then where they hadn't seen all these moves.

[785] Sure.

[786] Much more low tech.

[787] So Teddy was eventually recaptured and now at Alcatraz.

[788] And that's when he meets a kindred spirit.

[789] and Forrest Tucker, so soon the two start scheming together, and they start by pulling tiny pieces of steel wool off of the cleaning pads and hiding it in their clothing, you know, like doing dishes or whatever.

[790] Scrappy brush, yeah.

[791] Yeah.

[792] And they're hoping to trigger the prison's metal detectors and make the guards think that they're defective, which is brilliant.

[793] So next the men start stealing tools from their workstations and hiding them in holes they carve out in the prison toilet.

[794] And then they conceal these holes with putty that they've also stolen from the prison's supply.

[795] And then at night, the men go to the toilets, remove the putty, take out the tools, and start working on digging a tunnel through the prison floor.

[796] Wow.

[797] So for a while, it seems like this plan might actually work.

[798] But then somehow a prisoner in solitary confinement learns about this scheme and gives the men up.

[799] No, that's not supposed to work that way.

[800] He's supposed to be in solitary.

[801] He shouldn't know what's going on.

[802] No, but do you wonder if he was, like, digging under, over, or to the side of where he was in solitary?

[803] He'd, like, heard every word through the wall or something.

[804] Snitches get candy, after all.

[805] Snitches get out of solitary, which is, like, fine, fine, then, more power to you.

[806] I don't care.

[807] Yeah.

[808] So later, when Alcatraz officials find those tools that they had hid in the toilet, they made a list of them that included, quote, a blowtorch, a bar spreader, a pair of sidecutters, a brace, a screwdriver, one or two pieces of wire and a piece of stone.

[809] So they just like were stealing everything they got a blow torch.

[810] I wouldn't know where to get a blow torch right now.

[811] And they fucking got one in prison and stole it and hit it.

[812] That's masterful.

[813] Yeah.

[814] So it was a punishment force and Teddy are thrown into the hole.

[815] So on the website Probation Information Network, they described the hole as a place where, quote, inmates were stripped, naked and held in rooms.

[816] made entirely of concrete, scraps of food were shoved through a small hole in the door, and prisoners were forced to use another hole in the floor as a toilet.

[817] The goal was not just to restrict inmates and confiscate their access to other individuals, but to punish and completely humiliate them.

[818] Oh, shit.

[819] End quote.

[820] So, Forest winds up in the hole in the dead of winter, and he would later say, yeah, he would later say, quote, I remember walking in with no clothes or shoes on, and the steel floor was so cold, it.

[821] hurt to touch it.

[822] And the only way to stay warm was to keep walking.

[823] Oh, God.

[824] End quote.

[825] It's unclear how long he stayed in the hole, but he's definitely there for at least several days, which I'm sure one day would be a thousand.

[826] So over the next couple years at Alcatraz, Forrest seems to reroute his energy.

[827] He starts pouring over law books, and he begins to inundate the California court system with legal writs and appeals, even though a local prosecutor dismisses his appeals as fantasy, a judge eventually grants Forrest a hearing.

[828] So the night before he's scheduled to appear in court, Forrest is transferred from Alcatraz to the county jail, which of course has a much more lax security system.

[829] Uh -oh.

[830] Once there, he complains about a pain in his lower stomach, so they throw him in shackles and handcuffs, and they rush him to the nearest hospital.

[831] When no one's looking, he grabs a pencil and stabs himself in the ankle, so the doctors have to remove the shackles because he now has an open wound there, where the shackles would be, but he's still in handcuffs.

[832] So they wheel him into the x -ray room on a gurney, and Forrest watches intently as the nurse steps away from his bedside.

[833] When he sees that his accompanying officer is distracted for a moment, Forrest leaps off the gurney, runs through the hospital's hallways, and out the front door.

[834] Dude.

[835] Just, he can't stay.

[836] He can't.

[837] He remains on the loose for several hours until he's tracked down in the middle of a cornfield, still handcuffed and in his hospital gown.

[838] He knows where to find food, at least.

[839] He's always going for vegetation.

[840] The idea that he's handcuffed with his butt out makes me laugh because it's just like, well, good luck.

[841] Lay down, maybe make a little skirt out of the corn.

[842] So this.

[843] This is, This clever escape is written up in the local papers, even though his profile as an escape artist is rising, he's not going to be able to evade the consequences of his actions.

[844] Another 23 years is tacked onto his sentence.

[845] And he is eventually transferred from Alcatraz to San Quentin, which is the infamous maximum security prison that's just basically nine miles north of Alcatraz at the top of the bay.

[846] So for many years, for a stay in San Quentin is uneventful.

[847] But then in 1979, when he is 59 years old, he's looking out the window one afternoon, and he can see some rowers from the Marin Yacht Club passing by in their small boats.

[848] Forrest thinks back to his childhood in Florida, and this gives him an idea.

[849] He finds a couple like -minded inmates named John Waller and William McGurk.

[850] The men start to pocket small scraps of wood and laminate from the prison's electrical and furniture workshops as well as paint, tape, and plastic sheets.

[851] They hide this stockpile in a big cardboard box labeled office supplies.

[852] Someone was on a break.

[853] Someone was not paying attention or over their job or whatever.

[854] I mean, I wonder if it's that he let nine years pass.

[855] So it's like, don't worry about me. I'm just old.

[856] You know, I'm not doing anything.

[857] Every once in a while, I'll pick up a tarp and you won't see where I put.

[858] it down.

[859] Other than that, don't worry about me. But also, where are they keeping a box called office supplies?

[860] That's what I'd like to know.

[861] In August, after months of careful planning, Forrest John and William meet in the hallway outside of San Quentin's wood shop.

[862] And then, as John and William stand guard, Forrest goes into the shop and gets to work, using all the odds and ends that they've been lifting from around the prison, Forrest builds a boat that can fit.

[863] all three of them.

[864] He doesn't use a hammer.

[865] So this is how good he has at building boats from childhood.

[866] He could do it as a nine -year -old.

[867] He built a canoe.

[868] So he's like, I've got this.

[869] He doesn't use a hammer because he's worried it will make too much noise.

[870] Instead, he pieces the boat together using tape and bolts.

[871] And once the boat is built, Forrest wants to paint it to look like the ones he saw from the Marin Yacht Club.

[872] Oh, so smart.

[873] How genius is that?

[874] Yeah.

[875] But the problem is he doesn't have very much paint to work with.

[876] So he figures out which side of the boat will face the guard towers.

[877] And he paints that side.

[878] Oh my God.

[879] Right.

[880] And then he stencils the words rub a dub dub on it.

[881] And then with the tiny amount of paint he has left, he draws the Marin Yacht Club logo on his and the other two guys prison issued sailor hats and sweatshirts.

[882] And when he's finished, They throw on their hats, they carry the boat outside, and in a far -flung part of the prison campus that has access to the water, they walk down and they put the boat into the bay and Forrest really knocks this one out of the park.

[883] The boat is beautifully constructed.

[884] It's watertight.

[885] It fits all three men.

[886] The problem is that the current is horrifying.

[887] In San Francisco Bay, you want to be nowhere near it.

[888] The idea that anybody ever puts a boat in.

[889] there to me is crazy.

[890] It's intense.

[891] Choppy as fuck, right?

[892] Yeah, the ocean is right there.

[893] It's like crazy.

[894] I mean, I'm sure that like sailing people love it because you can really sail, but it's pretty serious.

[895] So that morning, especially the current is unforgiving.

[896] John Waller says, quote, the boat didn't leak a drop.

[897] We could have paddled to Australia.

[898] It was those damn waves over the side.

[899] When we finally reached the edge of the property, the son of a bitch sank.

[900] End quote.

[901] So essentially, the current got them on a technicality.

[902] It wouldn't have gone any other way.

[903] So Forrest and his two companions are now clinging to the upside down boat and doing their best to swim it back to shore.

[904] So as they struggle in the rough waters, a guard in San Quentin's Tower spots them.

[905] But he doesn't realize that they're inmates.

[906] He sees the boat.

[907] He sees their outfits.

[908] He yells and asks if they need any help.

[909] He thinks they're from the Moran Yon Club.

[910] Yeah.

[911] William McGirk reportedly responds, quote, We just lost a couple oars, but my timex is still running.

[912] And ha ha, ha, ha, and the guard leaves them alone.

[913] Oh, my God.

[914] I feel like if you win first place for clever escapism, then your sentence gets cut.

[915] You should get to go.

[916] It's like a science fair at a high school.

[917] Exactly.

[918] You know.

[919] Can you build like a small boat without using a hammer?

[920] and then actually if it floats and you can get away in it.

[921] And it doesn't look like a prison boat.

[922] It looks like an actual.

[923] The Marin Yacht Club.

[924] I mean, those are some rich bitches over there.

[925] Yeah, for sure.

[926] And you blend.

[927] You blend.

[928] That guard bought it.

[929] You win.

[930] You win in every way.

[931] Definitely.

[932] So miraculously, Forrest John and William make it to shore in this boat.

[933] And they immediately go their separate ways.

[934] And when the San Quentin officials find out that these three inmates are on the loose, a manhunt begins.

[935] John and William are eventually recaptured.

[936] Forest is nowhere to be found.

[937] So soon after, there's a rash of robberies at banks and grocery stores in Arizona, then New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana.

[938] So it's kind of all along the southwest, going east.

[939] police don't make any connection between the missing prisoner from San Quentin and these heists because they're so hung up on the descriptions of these perpetrators, men much older than your average armed robber and the ringleader being a 60 -something old man wearing a hearing aid.

[940] Oh, my God.

[941] Police begin referring to them as the Over the Hill gang.

[942] So basically, Forrest got out.

[943] He got much needed hearing aid and he got some friends together and said, Let's get the band back together and start holding up banks again.

[944] In one month alone, the escaped Forrest Tucker pulls off as many as 60 robberies.

[945] 60?

[946] 60?

[947] 6 .0?

[948] 6 .0.

[949] Jesus.

[950] I don't understand why people just don't like take a break.

[951] He's so ambitious, you know?

[952] It truly sounds like he couldn't.

[953] Like this was his passion.

[954] Yeah, yeah.

[955] He was into it.

[956] So it says with his small group of criminally inclined friends.

[957] he later claimed that he quote mastered the art of the holdup he does consider it an art not only does he wear wigs and makeup to these heists but he also follows a few key rules he looks for targets near highways he spends time casing each joint and then when he makes his move he is always very calm forest would be quoted as saying in the old days the stick -up men were like cowboys they would just go in shooting yelling for everyone to lie down but not me violence is the first sign of an amateur.

[958] Ooh.

[959] And Forrest has evolved with the times, paying attention to the science of a hold -up.

[960] He covers his fingerprints with nail polish, believing that that will obstruct the prints.

[961] He also brings a glass cutter.

[962] He brings a canvas bag that's, quote, big enough for the dough.

[963] And he always has a gun, which he insists is just a prop and something he'd never actually used to hurt a civilian.

[964] Well, they don't know that.

[965] They don't know that.

[966] That's him being interviewed by the New Yorker after the fact, essentially.

[967] But Forrest considers his hearing aid to be the most valuable tool because he's got it wired to a police scanner that is tucked into his shirt.

[968] Dude.

[969] That's the hearing aid.

[970] Brill.

[971] Brilliant.

[972] So that way, he's tipped off inside the bank if anybody hits a silent alarm during the robbery, then he knows how much time they have.

[973] As the over the hill gang continues hitting banks across, the Southwest, investigators struggle to track them down, and soon newspapers run headlines like, quote, senior citizens strike again and, quote, middle -aged bandits puzzle detectives.

[974] A Texas police sergeant named John Hunt says, quote, they were the most professional, successful robbers that I'd ever encountered in all my years on the force.

[975] They had more experience in robbery than we had in catching them, end quote.

[976] But all that changes during the 1983 heist in Massachusetts, where we started this story, because remember the over -the -hill gang's disguises weren't exactly on point that day, so two of Forrest's accomplices and their comically fake mustaches were part of the problem, but the other part was Forrest was missing an important part of his usual disguise.

[977] Author David Grant explains, quote, Tucker's wig had shrunk in a recent snowstorm.

[978] end quote.

[979] So he decides to ditch it, which allows the tellers and the bank manager to very easily identify him as the man with the hearing aid when they are shown his mugshot.

[980] At this point, Forrest Tucker has been at large and on the run for three years.

[981] So they finally track him down in Florida that June, walking towards his car in a parking garage.

[982] And they immediately start firing their weapons when they know it's him.

[983] What?

[984] The officers will later claim that Forrest had threatened them with his gun.

[985] Forrest adamantly says that he did not do that.

[986] So as Forrest rushes to his car, he gets shot in the arms and legs, but he still somehow manages to throw himself into his vehicle, slam the door shut, throw the car into reverse, and race through the parking garage backwards.

[987] Holy shit.

[988] Yeah.

[989] I couldn't do that without bullet holes in my fucking arms only.

[990] I know.

[991] And he's also losing blood.

[992] He's getting dizzy.

[993] He busts out onto the street, and then he crashes his car.

[994] He climbs out of the vehicle, starts running away on foot.

[995] And within seconds, there's a woman driving in Forest's direction.

[996] Her young child's in the backseat.

[997] She'll later tell reporters, quote, as I got closer, he started to look bloodier and bloodier.

[998] It was all over him, and I thought this poor man's been hit by a car.

[999] Oh, dear.

[1000] end quote so this woman pulls over she offers for us to ride to the hospital do you know how i'm picturing this whole time is walton goggins oh yeah the rich of gemstones he'd be perfect that's a good one there's actually that's interesting bookmark that for the end of this okay so once he's in her car he pulls out a gun he grabs the steering wheel and says that she needs to hit the gas now she's terrified of course she obeys so with With him steering and her working the gas pedal, the police are now on their tail, the car flies down the street for half a mile, and suddenly Forrest gives up.

[1001] He just mutters, okay, she pulls over, he steps out of the car, and he passes out on the street from blood loss.

[1002] He's immediately taken to the local hospital, and from there, he's eventually taken into custody.

[1003] Meanwhile, police decide to search his house, which is in a well -to -do Florida retirement community.

[1004] And then when they knock on the door there, they're greeted by a pretty woman in her 50s.

[1005] No. Uh -huh.

[1006] She tells police that her husband's name is Bob Callahan and that he's a retired securities broker.

[1007] When they tell her that her husband is actually Forrest Tucker, a notorious bank robber who successfully busted out of prison, she breaks down in tears.

[1008] Oh, honey.

[1009] We're always so surprised when these men are bank robbers and not retired securities brokers, aren't we?

[1010] Jesus.

[1011] So Forrest Tucker is eventually sent back to San Quentin.

[1012] Wow.

[1013] And when he gets there, because of his legendary escape on the rub -a -dub -dub, everybody calls him the captain.

[1014] Oh my God.

[1015] That's how you get a nickname.

[1016] You know what I mean?

[1017] It's not like you're into fucking grilled cheese.

[1018] And so everyone calls you grilled cheese sandwich or whatever.

[1019] It's like the captain.

[1020] The captain, and that's earned.

[1021] That's capital T, capital C. It's earned.

[1022] Now, here's such a moving part of this.

[1023] Desperate to salvage his marriage, Forrest promises his wife that he can change.

[1024] He says, quote, I told her that from then on I'd only look at ways to escape.

[1025] End quote.

[1026] He does seem committed to this promise.

[1027] But again, Forrest is studying the law.

[1028] He spends a lot of time cranking out legal appeals.

[1029] citing his declining physical health, he actually manages to get his sentence reduced by half.

[1030] Wow.

[1031] He also starts to write his life story.

[1032] It attempts to unpack his lifelong passion for robbing banks.

[1033] Forrest says that heists are his, quote, way of keeping his sanity in a lifetime of being the hunted.

[1034] Each new joint is a game, a game to outwit the authorities, end quote.

[1035] He calls his completed manuscript the can opener.

[1036] But then Marin made a note underneath.

[1037] And she was like, I cannot figure out why this is the name.

[1038] There's nothing to tie it back to an actual.

[1039] She thinks it's because maybe the can is slang for jail.

[1040] Oh, yeah.

[1041] Yeah.

[1042] So it's like the can opener.

[1043] But that's a guess.

[1044] That's Marin's guess.

[1045] In 1993, when Forrest is 73 years old, he is released from prison.

[1046] He and his wife settle in Pompano Beach, Florida, where he gives saxophone and clarinet lessons to locals.

[1047] after all these years it seems that he's finally turned his life around he seems genuinely happy and much of that happiness is attributed to his wife who Forrest is absolutely in love with he composes songs to her he takes her out dancing and he says quote she is one in a million so cute but then in 1999 when Forrest is 78 years old he walks into yet another Florida bank with a bandana with a bandit over his face, my friend.

[1048] Please.

[1049] He flashes a gun and he demands all their money.

[1050] He runs out with $5 ,300, which is around $10 ,000 in today's stolen money.

[1051] But this time, the police are on his trail.

[1052] They get into a high -speed chase.

[1053] He crashes his car into a palm tree.

[1054] A responding officer says, quote, he looked like he just came off the golf course.

[1055] You'd more expect to see him go to the early bird special than robbing banks.

[1056] So once again, Forrest is arrested.

[1057] In October of 2000, he pleads guilty and is sentenced to 13 years in prison.

[1058] His wife tells reporters, quote, he didn't do it for the money.

[1059] We had a new car, a nice home that was paid for, beautiful clothes.

[1060] He had everything, end quote.

[1061] In May of 2004, about a month shy of his 84th birthday, Forrest Tucker dies behind bars.

[1062] And to this day, it's unclear how much money Forrest Tucker stole in his lifetime, but he died with millions of dollars and what's quoted to be a fleet of sports cars like he died a rich man and he did claim that not once in all of these robberies did he ever actually use his gun or commit an act of violence against a civilian although I bet that mother and child in that car would have a different story to tell right but you know you got to get your credit where you can it's also unclear if his autobiography was ever published but when this two thousand three article is written about him for the New Yorker by writer David Grant, that then turned into a movie.

[1063] And that right there is the life story of prolific bank robber and escape artist, Forrest Tucker.

[1064] I have never fucking heard of that in my life.

[1065] Me either.

[1066] He's a modern tuckin' outlaw.

[1067] He was just, I love the energy because usually these stories that's like, well, drugs are involved.

[1068] Right.

[1069] Well, you know, This is involved.

[1070] This just seems to be a little bit of a weird compulsion.

[1071] Yeah.

[1072] Yeah.

[1073] He needed to say fuck you to the man. Sure.

[1074] There's nothing wrong with that.

[1075] Wow.

[1076] I wonder where his son is.

[1077] Now he feels about all of this.

[1078] Yeah, that's true.

[1079] That you do fucking 23 in me and you're like, do, do, do, where's my dad?

[1080] And they're like, oh, he's the old man bandit or whatever.

[1081] He's the, he's the guy with the hearing aid that's actually a police scanner.

[1082] Oh, that's brilliant.

[1083] That's so smart.

[1084] Well, great job.

[1085] Thank you.

[1086] We did it again.

[1087] A podcast.

[1088] A podcast that I would say that one had full range.

[1089] Yeah, it was a podcast within a podcast.

[1090] Yeah, it was.

[1091] And we thank you for joining us once again.

[1092] We couldn't appreciate you more audience member.

[1093] And we mean you.

[1094] Always and forever.

[1095] Thank you.

[1096] And stay sexy.

[1097] And don't get murdered.

[1098] Goodbye.

[1099] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1100] This has been an exactly right production.

[1101] Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1102] Our managing producers, Hannah Kyle Creighton.

[1103] Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[1104] This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachey.

[1105] Our researchers are Marin McClashen and Ali Elkin.

[1106] Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[1107] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[1108] Goodbye.

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