Michael Shannon

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Lily Padman.

[3] Okay, I have to say something.

[4] Okay.

[5] An admission or a grievance?

[6] Neither.

[7] Okay.

[8] An epiphany.

[9] Oh, my God.

[10] When I edited this one, there is a story in this episode that I think is maybe the best story we've ever heard on the show.

[11] About his first day of acting?

[12] Yes.

[13] Okay, yes.

[14] Impossible.

[15] It's impossible, and the way it's laid out.

[16] I mean, it was amazing when we heard it the first time, but when I was listening back, my mouth was just, I was on an airplane, I was laughing, my mouth was a gape, and it's, it's really special.

[17] Well, Michael Shannon is our guest, and he's just, I mean, he's probably the best living actor currently.

[18] What the hell?

[19] Why is he so good at it?

[20] He's so phenomenal.

[21] He is an Academy Award nominated actor.

[22] As you'll hear, I met him years ago.

[23] 18 years ago doing Let's Go to Prison.

[24] He was the most convincing evil human being I'd ever seen act.

[25] But he's also in Revolutionary Road, Nocturnal Animals, Take Shelter, Boardwalk Empire, The Flash.

[26] And he has a new miniseries out now on Showtime, which is my favorite of the year.

[27] I've been trying to beg people to go check it out on Showtime called George and Tammy.

[28] He is so off the charts amazing in it.

[29] And it was just really fun to get to sit down and shoot the shit with Michael Shannon.

[30] Yeah, really cool day.

[31] Yeah, so if you're brave enough, stick around from Michael Shannon.

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[34] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[35] Did you get offered something to drink?

[36] Yeah, I got coffee.

[37] Do you want a pint of any beer?

[38] No, I'm all right for now.

[39] The mood strikes you.

[40] It's one foot from your face.

[41] Okay.

[42] What are the offerings?

[43] Ted Seeger.

[44] It's my own N .A. beer.

[45] Oh, cool.

[46] Yeah.

[47] I might have to try that, actually.

[48] Well, look, you're from Mix Match, Kentucky and Illinois.

[49] Yeah.

[50] But I'm from Michigan.

[51] Okay.

[52] And our two biggest stars were Bob Seeger and Ted Nugent.

[53] Right, right.

[54] So you can buy them together.

[55] You got Ted Seeger.

[56] Unleaded Regal brew.

[57] Nice.

[58] It's really good, actually.

[59] I'm not into N .A. And we invited you here to promote the beer.

[60] So I would like you're just a. Be the spokesperson.

[61] I'll have one on standby.

[62] Oh, here, let me get, watch this.

[63] Oh, this is a first.

[64] This is really exciting.

[65] Oh, you pull it.

[66] It's a cat, baby.

[67] Oh, wow.

[68] You'll be the first guess.

[69] Oh, God.

[70] Oh, God.

[71] There we go.

[72] That wasn't the best start.

[73] It looks kind of good, right?

[74] Yeah.

[75] It was really foamy the first couple we had.

[76] What, that's settled from.

[77] Where do you brew this?

[78] In Illinois, of all places.

[79] Oh, Chicago.

[80] Is that mean?

[81] anything to do with Loganitas?

[82] It does not.

[83] Why do I know Loganitas?

[84] It's a brass.

[85] Yeah, they're...

[86] Oh, shit.

[87] Oh, shit.

[88] And they've got a place in Brooklyn.

[89] I think, yeah.

[90] I think I was staying across the street this weekend from that.

[91] Were you in Brooklyn?

[92] Yeah, I was in Williamsburg.

[93] Directly across from the hotel was this come in drink this hop water.

[94] Oh, wow.

[95] I wonder if that was it.

[96] Could be.

[97] We did walk from there to Clinton Hill to go to Emily Pizza.

[98] Oh, yeah, Emily Squared.

[99] Yeah, do you ever go there and get that burger?

[100] No, I didn't even know they had burger.

[101] When you leave, I'm going to give you $31.

[102] That's the price day.

[103] That's how much they cost?

[104] Yes, I want to buy it for you.

[105] It's the best burger by a factor of 10 that I've ever had in my life.

[106] Really?

[107] At a pizza place.

[108] I'm so excited for you to discover this.

[109] How far are you from Clinton Hill?

[110] Shit.

[111] Clinton Hill.

[112] You knew this would be a heavy geography conversation, right?

[113] Alex, what is Clinton Hill?

[114] Yeah, yeah.

[115] Alex, what is two miles as the crow flies?

[116] Okay, so you and I, at this point, have known each other for, if it was 2005, 18 years, that seems impossible.

[117] And we could see an R -rated movie.

[118] Yes.

[119] So I have to tell you how I was introduced to you, if you'll indulge me. Yeah, yeah.

[120] We are told by Bob Odenkirk, the director of Let's Go to Prison, that he feels pretty confident that he has secured this actor, who is impossible to secure.

[121] he tells me that he had to call like a bar that took your messages or some place there was so much mystery spinning around your involvement in the movie bill murray style yeah i was thinking the same thing yes it was bordering on bill murray level elusiveness and so i was just curious i'm like bob how do you even know about this guy oh my god he's a chicago legend this guy he won't talk to anybody like if we can get him in this movie it's going to be such a coup and elaborate caper to get you involved.

[122] And you just entered as a very, very intriguing mystical creature.

[123] What was happening at that time in your life?

[124] And was it really that hard to get a hold of you?

[125] And what was the protocol to get you in something in 2005?

[126] I was actually very grateful to have the job.

[127] I'm part of a theater company in Chicago called A. Red Orchid Theater.

[128] We're on Wells Street in Old Town.

[129] And I think at the time, I might have been staying at the theater.

[130] There we go.

[131] And I didn't have a phone.

[132] So if you wanted to get a hold of me, you would call the theater.

[133] That you were living in.

[134] Leave a message.

[135] Yes.

[136] Like in the green room, you had like an air mattress?

[137] The dressing room.

[138] I would stay in the dressing room.

[139] Wow.

[140] That's method.

[141] Yeah, yeah.

[142] Could you describe your kind of day -to -day life back then?

[143] Let's see.

[144] If I was doing a play at the theater, the theater is very low -fi, you know, so I would build.

[145] the sets with the guy who ran the theater.

[146] And so we'd spend all day working on the set and then we rehearse at night and then go around the corner to the old town ale house and then I'd go sleep in the dressing room.

[147] Okay.

[148] If I was doing a play.

[149] Because at that time I had already gone and lived in L .A. for a couple of years.

[150] I was in L .A. from like 1999 to 2001.

[151] And then I went back to Chicago because there was a play I wanted to do.

[152] You co -founded the theater as well, right?

[153] I was there when it started.

[154] We just turned 30.

[155] Guy, Van Sweringen, he's the one who started it.

[156] He was a Chicago firefighter.

[157] He's retired now.

[158] I met him in this acting class that I was in, and he asked me to help him when he was starting it.

[159] So I did, like, the box office and designed the posters.

[160] Then I started doing shows there.

[161] What was the two years in L .A. like?

[162] You did do a bunch of movies in that period, yeah?

[163] Yeah, it was kind of like I won the lottery or something, Because I know a lot of people come out here and can struggle pretty hard.

[164] I hadn't been out here too long when I booked Pearl Harbor.

[165] And then all of a sudden, I was in the big time.

[166] You're just in like eight movies in rapid succession.

[167] And I was getting a kick out of it and making some cash and stuff.

[168] But I'm just misdoing theater because I'm a kook.

[169] But I came to L .A. and I was like, what is happening here?

[170] What is valued?

[171] That's curious.

[172] but I'm also an extrovert.

[173] I wouldn't describe you as an extrovert.

[174] It depends on the day.

[175] But, yeah, I'd say by and large, I can keep my cards close to my chest.

[176] But yeah, when I was out here, most of the time I was living out in Silver Lake.

[177] Ahead of the curve.

[178] Yeah.

[179] It's fun now.

[180] I had a lot of fun there back then.

[181] There was a club, I think at the time, it was called Space Land.

[182] So I go see shows there all the time, and I really like Silver Lake.

[183] I like that reservoir.

[184] You can walk around there.

[185] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[186] A cool record shop and the Red Lion, that German joint.

[187] Oh, yeah, that's still there.

[188] The shortstop.

[189] Do you ever go get plowed at the shortstop?

[190] It's a shortstop.

[191] I don't know that one.

[192] It's kind of right by the Dodgers Stadium.

[193] It was a famous cop bar, like in the 70s and 80s.

[194] And when you walked in, there was lockers when you entered, and you were supposed to put your gun inside the locker.

[195] Oh, my God.

[196] And it's a proper shit hole.

[197] It's a good place to get blacked out.

[198] That's awfully considerate to have lockers for the guns.

[199] It's thoughtful, isn't it?

[200] Very thoughtful.

[201] And probably cuts down on the friendly fire that happens once everyone's hammered inside.

[202] Yeah, I think it's more necessity than friendliness.

[203] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[204] Okay, now, if I continue on with my self -indulgent experience with, let's go to prison, you were somebody who I worked with, and then I watched go on this meteoric rise.

[205] Yeah.

[206] And it was so thrilling for me on the outside.

[207] There's Leonard.

[208] Leonard's doing well.

[209] Yes.

[210] Leonard does Skinhead.

[211] You feel some ownership when you all work together and you're kind of just giving it a shot.

[212] And then to watch you over the years, I would compare it.

[213] The only other person is I used to perform with Melissa McCarthy at the groundlings.

[214] And for years, she was just kind of acting, not showing what she could do.

[215] It always felt heartbreaking.

[216] Even though she was employed and had money and we didn't.

[217] There was something about it that felt like, oh, there's a tiger in a cage or something.

[218] And then so to watch her have that explosion was, I'd say the other experience of how it's like a co -star or someone at the beginning just went, to where they were supposed to be.

[219] And it's been really, really fun to watch.

[220] And in that, I look back on that time, 2005.

[221] That was only the third thing I had ever done.

[222] Oh, wow.

[223] Yeah, I was the person who had been here for 10 years before getting hired.

[224] Yeah.

[225] The thing I somehow managed to avoid.

[226] Yes.

[227] Yes, but probably now I can see from my perspective, walking into that movie where Will Arnett, who's crazy outgoing and loud and funny, and Kekner, who's the mayor of every place he's at, right?

[228] David Keckner.

[229] He's so funny.

[230] And then I'm not a wallflower either.

[231] And the three of us, we have 75 bits about any topic you would stumble into.

[232] We've got 12 inside jokes that go on.

[233] I guess I regret not figuring out how to invite you into that more.

[234] Well, to be fair, I was pretty intimidating.

[235] I mean, I had a shaved head and I was covered with the swastical tattoos.

[236] Yes.

[237] So it could just have been visual cues that were stopping you from embracing me. It was a lot of things.

[238] it was the misdier that surrounded just you getting involved to begin with.

[239] Hearing what a boner Odenkirk had for you as an artist, I think made at least me and go like, yeah, I'm not a real actor.

[240] Like this real actor is showing up and we're fucking three bozo comedians.

[241] I think we were probably intimidated as well.

[242] But I guess I was just curious what your experience was like on that movie.

[243] And if I do owe you an amends, I feel like I owe you to Mends.

[244] Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, I had a ball doing that movie.

[245] I mean, look, I'm never entirely comfortable.

[246] playing a stone cold racist person.

[247] Right.

[248] I got to do it again on bad boys too.

[249] I'm trying to segue out of that.

[250] I think I've been successful.

[251] I haven't done it in a while.

[252] You don't want that to be your niche.

[253] Yeah, exactly.

[254] Every niche is explored the whole spectrum.

[255] I've been a white nationalist.

[256] I've also been a straight old -fashioned Nazi.

[257] Yeah, yeah.

[258] I was a big fan of Bob's because of Mr. Show.

[259] I was very flattered that he thought of me to do it.

[260] So I thought that movie was so fun.

[261] I love playing with everybody on it.

[262] There was a fellow who played my sidekick.

[263] He was another Chicago actor, Jay.

[264] I can't remember his last name.

[265] Well, there was one guy named Mike El Nino maybe.

[266] El Nino, to my knowledge, means the baby in Spanish.

[267] Does it?

[268] Yes.

[269] And there was one day on the call sheet.

[270] There was an error.

[271] And they had written The Mike El Nino.

[272] And then Arnett and I happened to see that.

[273] We're like, this basically says the mic, the baby.

[274] should be here at 5 .30 a .m. He was the dude who had really been shot three or four times in our cast.

[275] He had some real bullet holes.

[276] Yeah, for the authenticity, of course.

[277] Jay Whitaker.

[278] Jay Whitaker, yes.

[279] He was kind of like, what's the classic cartoon with the big dog and the little dog?

[280] Yeah, he was my little dog.

[281] Yeah, he started all the fights you finished.

[282] Exactly.

[283] Yeah, he would go around provoking people.

[284] I thought it was interesting shooting in that actual prison.

[285] That was a rustic location, to say the least.

[286] Yes, I've said to people, it's funny.

[287] It's funny.

[288] You're acting.

[289] You know, you can go home.

[290] There's all these things.

[291] But just being in the cells for so much of the shoot, I started to feel really fucking cagey.

[292] We'd have those shower scenes where we'd mean that fucking disgusting communal shower.

[293] And you're thinking about how much gore has gone down the drain in this place for real.

[294] And then even crazier is when we would have those big scenes with extras.

[295] Quite often, many of the extras had served time at Joliet while it was still, we learned.

[296] I got in a fight on.

[297] I don't know if you remember.

[298] I remember this, but I was walking out and a guy hit me in real life.

[299] Really?

[300] Yeah, background.

[301] Dude, slapped me in the face as I was walking up his hill.

[302] He was getting too into it, and he had been there, and I'm a pussy actor and all these other things.

[303] And I went after him, and the whole thing was separated.

[304] Yeah, it was a real to do.

[305] We got a warning afterwards, like, hey, guys, just keep your eyes peeled.

[306] Some of these guys have been here.

[307] Yeah, some of them are going to get a little froggy.

[308] Yeah, a little hot to trot.

[309] I've shot in a couple other prisons since then.

[310] Well, were you sold on the...

[311] idea.

[312] They told me the Blues Brothers was shot there.

[313] I'm like, oh, this is great.

[314] I feel like I'm going to, like, a sacred comedy ground here.

[315] And then the fun wore off.

[316] Yeah.

[317] Well, it was hard to get to.

[318] Were you, like, staying out there?

[319] Well, and I were in these apartments in Bowling Brook.

[320] Oh, wow.

[321] No four seasons for you.

[322] No, no. Well, Arnette would go on the weekends and go stay somewhere nice in Chicago.

[323] But I'm such a penny pincher.

[324] I was like, I'm going to stay right here in Bolingbrook.

[325] As I recall, it wasn't a big money situation.

[326] No. Now, wait, I'm about to try your Oh, okay, okay.

[327] We're going to get a real...

[328] Ted Sigers.

[329] Here we go.

[330] Yeah, it's kind of fruity.

[331] Oh.

[332] But not citrusy.

[333] The hops are a little fruity.

[334] Yeah.

[335] I like it a lot.

[336] You make it look so good, I'm going to finish mine.

[337] Just hearing the way he...

[338] Did you hear it?

[339] Yeah, fruity.

[340] And he said, mm. It's very refreshing.

[341] It is, right?

[342] They should serve this in schools.

[343] Oh, my God.

[344] That's the best.

[345] For the children.

[346] To keep the children healthy.

[347] Oh my God, that's kind of a good idea.

[348] If you get them started on N .A., then maybe they'll never feel the need.

[349] True.

[350] They'll have a real beer.

[351] Like, oh, this doesn't taste like real beer.

[352] Yeah.

[353] Give me my Ted secrets.

[354] Where the fuck is my Ted secret?

[355] That all was to say, now that I'm sitting here talking to you, I think the real feeling I've had over the years is just a personal regret that I didn't get to know you more.

[356] Oh, yeah.

[357] As I've watched, just this incredible spectrum of talent, I thought, yeah, I kind of missed the boat.

[358] I wish I had made a bigger effort.

[359] Well, I wasn't there quite as long as you were either.

[360] I had like a few days, but I wasn't in for the long haul because you were probably going in every day.

[361] Yes, the work on your plate was different than the work on my plate.

[362] You had to really anchor the whole thing, providing the scary.

[363] And you were fucking terrifying.

[364] It was wonderful.

[365] Thank you.

[366] Okay.

[367] I learned that we had some similarities today.

[368] Divorced parents very early.

[369] Yes.

[370] How old were you?

[371] I don't even remember them being together.

[372] I was a wee little infant.

[373] It was basically like, a mistake.

[374] We made a mistake.

[375] They went running away from each other.

[376] So did he move up to Illinois?

[377] Well, he stayed in Kentucky until I was five.

[378] He was teaching at the University of Kentucky in Lexington, which is where I was born.

[379] and then when I was five, he got a job at DePaul University in Chicago.

[380] Professor of accounting?

[381] Accounting, finance, taxation, valuation, as he would say.

[382] But yeah, he stayed there at DePaul until he passed away.

[383] He was there 30 years.

[384] We're the same age.

[385] 48?

[386] Yeah.

[387] Yeah, cool.

[388] What age was your dad when he died?

[389] He was 73 when he died.

[390] Because he didn't have me until he was 40.

[391] I was going to say he must have been kind of older.

[392] Because my dad died in 2012, but he was only 62.

[393] Oh, okay.

[394] There we go.

[395] Let's cool it down in here.

[396] Oh, yeah.

[397] Once you get that ice cold seaggers in your mouth, you start realizing how hot the surrounding her is.

[398] So you would go back and forth from Illinois to Kentucky a ton.

[399] Yeah.

[400] I mean, at first, I stayed with my mom mostly, and I'd go visit dad for Christmas and summer vacation and stuff.

[401] And then when I started high school, I went up to live with him for.

[402] a couple of years then i went back down to kentucky for a year and then i came back up and started doing theater now i can remember that we were shamefully dismissive of kids who moved up from kentucky my family the shepherds and the hanschels are all from kentucky they're from hazard county so i didn't have much of a chip on my show i went to a southern baptist church and ship but we were pretty terrible to kids from the south when they came up from being on Have you heard of this book, Demon Copperfield?

[403] Head.

[404] Demon Copperhead.

[405] I haven't heard of it.

[406] It just won the Pulitzer, and it's about this boy, demon copper.

[407] Head.

[408] It's based on David Copperfield, which is why it's so confusing.

[409] Well, it's not.

[410] It is.

[411] They say it's a modern retelling.

[412] Yes.

[413] We'll fact check that.

[414] But it's about a boy in Virginia in a hollow in Appalachia.

[415] And it's incredible.

[416] And there's a section in there.

[417] explaining that the way the South is represented on television and in movies, he'd compare it to the kid that's in the bathroom stall by himself, and he can hear everyone talking about him in the bathroom.

[418] Like, we can hear you.

[419] Yeah, we're seeing the same shit.

[420] I don't know, it hit me when I read that book.

[421] It's kind of brutal, so I guess I'm just wondering if that was an easy transition.

[422] Oh, God, no, it was kind of a disaster.

[423] This is why I wound up going back to Kentucky.

[424] Where I grew up, Lexington, it's a fairly urban place.

[425] It's not like I was out by the Cric or something, catching Croddads.

[426] Yeah, it's a university, Kentucky.

[427] Your mama's a lawyer?

[428] Well, she's a lawyer now, but at the time, she was a social worker.

[429] Okay.

[430] She was a social worker for decades.

[431] So she's interfaced with some of the people from the Cric probably?

[432] She's seen it all.

[433] She did every kind of social work humanly possible.

[434] But social workers don't make much money, unfortunately.

[435] So we were pretty busted down there.

[436] And then I went to live with my dad and my dad because he was a professor.

[437] You know, he wasn't like a gazillionaire or anything, but they do all right.

[438] He had pop and cable television and shit.

[439] Well, and he was living up on what's commonly referred to as the North Shore, Wilmette, which is just north of Chicago.

[440] And so these communities up there, they had this high school, New Trier High School, which was kind of like the John Hughes High School.

[441] John Hughes didn't found it or anything, but like in those schools.

[442] It's in his mind when he's writing.

[443] Filled with incredibly wealthy kids who've known each other for a long time and then all of a sudden I'd show up like some apparition.

[444] Were you this height back then?

[445] No, I hadn't had my growth spurt yet.

[446] And I was also a year younger because I had skipped a grade.

[447] So when I started my freshman year, I was 13.

[448] So I was just a little 13 -old kid that nobody knew who the hell I was or where I came from.

[449] You talked funny, I imagine.

[450] Yeah, a little bit.

[451] The school was gigantic.

[452] It had like 4 ,000 students or something.

[453] I couldn't make any friends.

[454] I was a real loner.

[455] I wouldn't say that people harassed me or gave me a hard time.

[456] It was just literally like I wasn't even there.

[457] And then I was trying to get involved with the theater there because it had a huge theater program.

[458] They did like seven shows a year.

[459] And I'd keep auditioning for things.

[460] And they'd be like, oh, you could.

[461] be in the chorus or be on the crew.

[462] The one perk was they had a jazz band, so I started playing in the jazz band, which led to my lifelong love of jazz.

[463] What instrument?

[464] I was playing the bass.

[465] Stand -up bass.

[466] Yeah, stand -up band.

[467] On some songs, you'd play the bass guitar, but I had been playing bass in the orchestra for a while.

[468] Who's number one?

[469] I didn't know you were into jazz.

[470] This is something we could have bonded over.

[471] Number one bass player?

[472] Well, Charlie Mingus.

[473] Oh, yeah.

[474] It's hard.

[475] I mean, there's Charlie Mingus.

[476] There's Ray B, round.

[477] There's Rufus Reed.

[478] I used to have his book, The Evolving Basist.

[479] I'm very fond of Charlie Hayden.

[480] And Jaco Pistorius, he was a phenomenon.

[481] So it wasn't entirely negative, but yeah, I don't even think anybody really knew I was from the South.

[482] I don't think anybody knew much about me at all.

[483] I wonder this about you, too, when you're living with one parent and then all of a sudden you decide to abandon ship and go to the other parent.

[484] Like, what instigates that?

[485] Well, you must know.

[486] I must.

[487] My mother married a fellow named Mike after my dad.

[488] We called him Big Mike, and I was just Mike.

[489] And they had three kids together, and then he split.

[490] So it was just like her and the four of us, and it was unpleasant.

[491] So after a certain point, I thought, maybe it would be nicer if I was somewhere else.

[492] Yeah.

[493] Yeah, yeah.

[494] Was he the only stepdad you had?

[495] Well, both of my parents have been married five times.

[496] So, 10 marriages.

[497] 10.

[498] Okay, my mom did five.

[499] Dad only did two.

[500] But I had a slew of stepdad's.

[501] Yeah.

[502] I only had one other.

[503] I couldn't even really call him a stepdad because mom didn't marry him until I was gone.

[504] But how many did you have?

[505] By the time I left, I was on number four.

[506] Oh, boy.

[507] Two of them horrendous.

[508] The third great.

[509] I think it definitely shaped a lot of the chips on my shoulders.

[510] Having like a strange male enter your world and tell you this is now how it's going to go down feels like such a betrayal.

[511] Just remember thinking, hold on.

[512] We're just throwing everything out the window because this guy is bigger than us.

[513] And now we don't even have an identity as a family anymore.

[514] It fucked me up.

[515] I don't know if fucks everyone up.

[516] Yeah, it's like an invasion of sorts.

[517] I mean, this guy, he wasn't super alpha.

[518] He was pretty quiet.

[519] Despite the moniker Big Mike.

[520] Yeah.

[521] He was one of these kind of stoic southern stereo.

[522] type kind of guys where you wonder what they're thinking or if they're thinking at all.

[523] You're just not quite sure.

[524] Who knows?

[525] Yeah.

[526] Could be solving any humongous math proof.

[527] Could have not had a thought in 10 minutes.

[528] Yeah.

[529] He was a jock.

[530] He had been a real athlete in school and stuff.

[531] Did you want you to get into that?

[532] I don't know.

[533] We'd have these awkward moments where we'd like go out and try and throw a ball around.

[534] Yeah.

[535] And just look at each other like, this is stupid.

[536] Oh, when can we stop this?

[537] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[538] Well, that's kind of sweet.

[539] He was trying, I guess, until he bounced.

[540] Yeah, strange decision on his part, but it happens.

[541] Did you have this phenomenon?

[542] It occurred to me kind of recently, really.

[543] I thought about all my best friends from fifth grade on, 100 % of them from divorced home.

[544] I didn't have a single friend whose parents were, it's like we were attracted to each other or something.

[545] It kind of alters your mindset a little bit.

[546] But everybody's got something they got to deal with, even if your parents are married for 70 years, I mean, that can also be a horrible situation.

[547] Yeah, it doesn't inoculate you from family drama to stay married.

[548] Now, theater becomes a refuge.

[549] By the way, I love your Sam Jones.

[550] It's so wonderful.

[551] Oh, thank you.

[552] Yeah.

[553] I was delighted you were willing to do that because you don't strike me as someone who's dying to sit down and do press.

[554] And I thought you were so open and wonderful.

[555] It was such a good episode.

[556] Well, he's got away as you do.

[557] It's really about not feeling threatened by the whole experience.

[558] There are some people in the business that are like, oh, I like to keep my private stuff private.

[559] I don't really feel like I have much to hide.

[560] But I wouldn't want anybody thinking that my work is based on like some horrible life experience I had.

[561] But I guess it does steer you towards the field.

[562] I can isolate exactly what it is.

[563] There are people in movies that are performing.

[564] and you know, intuitively, if they've been in that situation.

[565] The example I love giving is when I saw Russell Crow in L .A. Confidential, in that opening scene, he says to the guy, you ever dance with a man?

[566] I'm like, oh, this motherfucker's dance with some dudes.

[567] Like, that is quite obvious to me. It's a little different than when he says it than when Tom Cruise says it.

[568] It doesn't matter.

[569] I don't know, one's not better at the other.

[570] That's very astute observations.

[571] Well, and I watch a lot of your performances, and I go, it's just like this book I can't stop talking about fucking demon copperhead right got it this author has been there that's obvious to me and I knew the hillbilly elegy guy was full of shit I was calling him full of shit from the get on that book I'm like this motherfucker heard these stories he wasn't there and what was his deal with him he was from an Ivy League school he went to an Ivy School he's very proud of himself he's a senator right really fringe deep end of the Trump Kewanani Trumpy.

[572] Yeah, I feel really, speaking of amends, because Dax and I had big fights about Hillbilly elegy because I loved it.

[573] I totally bought into it.

[574] And like, have you read this?

[575] It's so good and so sad.

[576] And then he read it and said, I think this is bullshit.

[577] I think he's lying.

[578] And then I said, well, just because he didn't have the exact same experience you did, doesn't mean he's lying, which I stand by that.

[579] But I do think he was.

[580] I was lying, and so I have to give it up.

[581] Oh, is that painful?

[582] Yeah, it's the worst.

[583] I feel like you've been conned.

[584] Yeah.

[585] Yeah, I think I'm the victim here, actually.

[586] I've been conned.

[587] We should write Mr. Vance's letter.

[588] I should.

[589] You'll sign it all three names on this letter.

[590] Similarly, did you ever read a million little pieces?

[591] I did read that one.

[592] Okay, I won't taint the well.

[593] Tell me what you felt about that.

[594] Yeah, I remember the controversy.

[595] about it.

[596] But I don't know.

[597] I didn't really get too hot under the collar about it.

[598] I thought it was a well -written book.

[599] I mean, I couldn't put it down.

[600] And it didn't seem like, based on what I've heard from other people who've dealt with addiction, it didn't seem like that far -fetched necessarily.

[601] But I've just never been in that situation.

[602] Woken up on an airplane, missing your tea.

[603] No. Wondering how you got there.

[604] I mean, that does seem a little fantastical, but I wouldn't feel qualified to have an expert opinion about it.

[605] I loved it.

[606] And I loved the follow -up book, my friend Leonard or whatever.

[607] I thought that was even better.

[608] I also, as someone who had been in AA and I'm an addict, there were a bunch of things.

[609] I was just like, well, this doesn't work that way.

[610] But I don't care.

[611] Like, there's a beautiful story.

[612] The core of the message wasn't really a tutorial on how to get sober.

[613] There was something there that was pure and wonderful.

[614] And I thought it was kind of crazy.

[615] Everyone went nuts that it was, you know, exaggerator or whatever.

[616] But that one didn't bother me because I did feel like there was a, of true authenticity and sincerity of the point of view.

[617] I just think he took creative liberties and exaggerated, which is funny because I was actually just talking about this at dinner last night.

[618] How weird.

[619] James Fry or something?

[620] Yes.

[621] Yeah.

[622] I have a friend whose friend does audiobooks, like runs those rooms or whatever and did that one and said he got pretty screwed over.

[623] He's like, everyone's memoirs are their version of the truth, are exaggerated.

[624] That's what it is.

[625] And so he kind of got a shit end of the deal because Oprah freaked out.

[626] She blasted him.

[627] She really did.

[628] To me, I felt like he kind of got bullied and all that.

[629] Yeah.

[630] And I think because she was so effusive about how good it was.

[631] And I think she felt embarrassed.

[632] And maybe betrayed because she felt so emotionally attached to the story, maybe some kind of hurt.

[633] Yeah, but something I just thought is that I think when people get really worked up about someone being dishonest in our culture, I find it.

[634] a little bit naive because I feel like our culture by and large is built on dishonesty.

[635] That's what we're learning with AI.

[636] Is it lies because it's studying how we communicate?

[637] Exactly.

[638] None of this is very factual.

[639] Pop culture is like you shouldn't be making big decisions based on any of this.

[640] It's really just about creating things that release certain chemicals in people's heads and make them feel like something exciting is happening.

[641] Yeah.

[642] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[643] What's up, guys?

[644] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[645] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[646] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[647] And I don't mean just friends.

[648] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[649] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[650] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[651] We've all been there.

[652] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers and strange rashes.

[653] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[654] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[655] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Balin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[656] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

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[658] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[659] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[660] So look, I'm not suggesting that your incredible acting prowess is the result of some kind of oppressive violent childhood.

[661] But I do think the recipe's evident for me, which is I think when you have observed your community entirely from the outside of it.

[662] It's a very specific experience.

[663] And I think I have that times found a rage in myself that is almost a little shocking at some point if i'm excluded from this group then fuck this group to the nth degree like however much i don't care i think in some of these explosive scenes you have that are so powerful and everyone agrees i think there's some bit of you that's has that that fire yeah a conclusion i came to at some point was that i think the main reason I got into acting was because I enjoyed getting an opportunity to be somebody else rather than being myself, particularly when I started.

[664] And it's something my father noticed because very early on in Chicago, I did a play.

[665] It was two one acts called Fun and Nobody by Howard Carter, who ironically was one of the writers on Boardwalk Empire many years later.

[666] That's wild.

[667] Yeah, it is.

[668] And at the time I did this play, I was 16.

[669] And it was a play basically about two teenagers skipping school and getting into trouble.

[670] Ferris Bueller's Dale?

[671] Well, without any cash.

[672] No Ferrari.

[673] Yeah, not the John Hughes for me. The guy who played my friend, like I was actually 16, and he was out at drama school and he was in his 20s.

[674] But the play got some nice notices and people were coming to see it.

[675] And my dad came to see it.

[676] It was sold out and everybody was clapping up.

[677] up a storm afterwards, and I walked out and found my dad, and I said, hey, dad, what'd you think?

[678] He was not being mean when he said this.

[679] He was genuinely bewildered.

[680] He was like, these people, they really seem to enjoy watching you do that.

[681] But as far as I can tell, that was you.

[682] It's a weird thing to wrap your head around because they claim that that's what they want.

[683] They just want you to be yourself.

[684] But obviously, if you keep doing this for years and years and years and years eventually you have to figure out how to be other people you can't just keep showing up and being yourself because that'll get old so at the beginning i think i had a lot of angst to expel and then once you get that out of your system then you start thinking more about the other aspects of it and now i don't really focus as much on the emotional component of it it's not as interesting to me Because now I'm like directing and doing things like that and thinking more about story and content and tone and highfalut and things like that.

[685] Yeah, I heard you say that the behavior you were exhibiting in real life that alienated you from people was celebrated on stage, the identical behavior.

[686] Yeah, that's kind of the mirror you walk through, I guess.

[687] Thank God that that opportunity exists.

[688] I mean, beyond, like, having this illustrious career, if I hadn't found that outlet, I don't know what I would have done, really.

[689] Right.

[690] Well, this is probably the medication that would have been replaced by other medication.

[691] That probably would have ended your life a lot sooner.

[692] If I can make a prediction.

[693] Yeah, yeah.

[694] I've always been very fortunate because even when I went into audition for that play, the two people that watched my audition were Tracy Letts, who played my father in that.

[695] play and the director Dexter Bullard.

[696] Now these are two people that I still know to this day and have worked with repeatedly over the years.

[697] But this was their first time meeting me or seeing me when I walked into this audition.

[698] And apparently, according to them, I walked out and Dexter turned to Tracy and said, that's just him.

[699] And Tracy said, yeah.

[700] And he said, but I don't think he's even I don't know what he's doing.

[701] And I don't know if he knows how to do this.

[702] Like, we don't know what he's going to do.

[703] Right, can you repeat this every night?

[704] Yeah, yeah.

[705] Does he know the rules or how this goes down or anything?

[706] Because some guy had come in before me that was, again, just out of drama school and had a great audition.

[707] And Dexter was like, maybe we should go with that guy, because at least he's dependable.

[708] But Tracy, to his credit, said, no, go with this weird kid.

[709] He's more interesting.

[710] If Tracy hadn't said that, who knows?

[711] We don't know.

[712] And it's all little moments like that.

[713] Oh, well, that brings me to a question I want to ask you at the end, but we're here.

[714] I have tremendous survivors guilt of having been in the groundlings in the Sunday company with 15 people, several of which were vastly more talented than me. Maybe they weren't as loud as me or they weren't as tall.

[715] I don't know what the fucking thing was, but many people that were more talented than me did not succeed on the level I did.

[716] It breaks my heart.

[717] Something feels unjust about it.

[718] And I wondered if you had any survivor's guilt from the Chicago scene.

[719] Yeah, well, I think about the company I'm in and it's just filled with phenomenal artists of all stripes.

[720] And I just directed a film and I was able to bring some of them into it.

[721] The film was written by a playwright that writes for art theater.

[722] I used actors from the company in the film and I was very grateful to get the opportunity to do that because yeah I feel the same way these people have as much to offer as I do even when I was living out in L .A., I was very reluctant to come to L .A. at all because I had so many colleagues in Chicago had decided to make that move and then I'd come out here for a visit or some audition or something and they'd be like delivering pizzas and these would be people that back in Chicago had done legendary might be strong but not too strong performances and things it's just hard felt degrading yeah yeah and i don't succumb to guilt as long as i stay connected to those people i still go back and do stuff at my theater and still stay invested in it i haven't just forgotten about it yeah i've done a similar thing i've directed a few things and it's stock full of all the people i love yeah but at the end of the day i recognize a lot of them have gone back to jobs we had when we were in our 20s because they had do.

[723] And that part just really feels horrendous.

[724] I mean, one friend in particular, I think, of who's just so insanely talented and has a family and has to return to bag and groceries.

[725] If deserves a part of it or meritocracy is a part of it, then I should be probably the one, you know.

[726] There's other factors at play, too, though.

[727] The word talent is kind of a mysterious word.

[728] What is it, really?

[729] I mean, it's, I guess you're able to do something that captivates other people for whatever a reason, but also making it in the business requires some savvy, you know.

[730] Some psychopathy as well.

[731] Yeah, yeah.

[732] And some dumb luck.

[733] There's a bunch of ingredients.

[734] I mean, when I came out here and auditioned for Pearl Harbor, I didn't think in a million years I'd get that job.

[735] I guess because of that, I walked in there and was just totally myself and unafraid.

[736] And I'm standing there in front of Michael Bay and Jerry Brookheimer.

[737] and I just start making stuff up and saying silly shit.

[738] And Michael Bay's laughing and I'm like, oh, this is fun.

[739] I don't know if that was talent or what it was.

[740] Maybe I was just loopy enough to not be all anxious about it.

[741] Well, that's a powerful technique, actually.

[742] If you can thoroughly convince yourself on the way there, you're never getting it.

[743] So you might as well just do what you wanted to do.

[744] That's kind of like when you try to get to eventually.

[745] It's like, well, there's a version of this I'd like to do in the movie.

[746] That'll either be a version they want or not.

[747] But this is the version I want to do.

[748] You can go through a whole long arc to get to that point, which is virtually the same place where you're like, I'm not going to get it, so I might as well do what I wanted to do.

[749] Right.

[750] I don't know entirely whether it's true or not, but somebody told me once that Philip Seymour Hoffman actually preferred to audition rather than just get the offer because he wanted to make sure, before he showed up at work, that whatever his impression of the thing was, was in line with whoever was making it.

[751] So there were no surprise.

[752] That doesn't shock me because I transitioned from auditioning for a decade to getting offered stuff.

[753] And always when I would show up at a movie that had been offered to me, and let's say you've got to do the table read before you start shooting it.

[754] And I realize, oh, this will be the first time I'm saying any of this out loud.

[755] All the work that you would have had to figure out for the audition, I just kicked down the road until the table read.

[756] I've walked into some of those pretty panicked.

[757] Like, oh, I think they fucked up.

[758] No one knows if I can do this.

[759] And I'm not sure I can.

[760] Have you had any of those?

[761] I have gotten fired a couple of times.

[762] Oh, good, me too.

[763] I want to hear about you're being fired.

[764] This would have been stuff that I had actually auditioned for.

[765] The Two Sir with Love Part Two story.

[766] It was something they were doing in Chicago, and it was a TV movie, and Peter Bogdanovich was directing it, and Sidney Poitier was reprising his role.

[767] I auditioned for Peter Bogdanovich, and he said, yes, you should do it.

[768] And so we had a rehearsal, and they set up all of these little desks, like a classroom, and then the teacher's desk in front.

[769] And all the kids who had been cast were assigned desks, and we were all sitting at our desk.

[770] And then this door flies open and walks Sidney Poitier and sits down on his desk, the teacher's desk.

[771] And Peter says, this is Sidney Poitier, and everybody claps.

[772] Peter said, let's dive right in.

[773] and we'll start with a scene featuring Michael Shannon and it was the scene that I had actually auditioned with we do it one time and I was a little nervous being in front of all the other kids for the first time and being in front of Sydney and all that but I had done the scene in the audition so I knew it and I pretty much I felt like did it the way I did it in the audition which Peter seemed to enjoy and then when the scene was finished Sydney didn't look so happy and Peter walked up to him and they were conferring with one another.

[774] Oh, God.

[775] I was still in my teens.

[776] Peter walked up and he said, yes, Michael.

[777] And he gave me some note about how my character, even though he was from the wrong side of the tracks, he was still very charming and a really smart kid or something.

[778] I don't know.

[779] And I tried to process what that actually meant or how it would affect my performance in a discernible way.

[780] And then we did it again.

[781] And it was basically like a groundhog day scenario where the same thing just kept happening over and over again.

[782] And then finally, Peter says, let's take a break.

[783] Oh, this is my nightmare.

[784] Oh, my God.

[785] And all the kids are watching all these days.

[786] Yeah.

[787] Yeah, your peers.

[788] There's a little craft service type table with coffee and tea and snacks on it.

[789] And Sydney walks over and he's making himself a cup of tea.

[790] And I realize that I need to do something.

[791] And I'm also just really curious because the man has made no direct approach to me. It's all been kind of a third party situation.

[792] So I'm kind of curious to hear from the horse's mouth just exactly what I'm doing that's pissing him off so much.

[793] So I walk up and I say, excuse me, Mr. Poitier, I'm terribly sorry to interrupt, but I'm really happy to be here and I'm trying really hard and I'm paraphrasing, you know.

[794] I can tell you're frustrated.

[795] I want to do better.

[796] I just don't.

[797] understand what's happening right now babbling on and on and finally I'm like shut up shut up just stop talking just let him say something and so I stop talking and there's this pause and he stares at me and he says I don't know what your technique is but you're weird and he turns around and walks away from me wait what that's so rude yeah that's very Very rough.

[798] In your 16 or 17?

[799] Yeah, I was like maybe 18, yeah.

[800] Oh, what do you even do with that?

[801] Yeah.

[802] You have to retool my genetics.

[803] Let me just go into the genetic scrambler backstage.

[804] Right.

[805] So then Peter comes back in and he says, well, I think what we'll do is everyone else can go home except for Michael.

[806] Michael stay here.

[807] By the way, this is a really long story.

[808] I don't know if you have other.

[809] We have nothing.

[810] Because you've got a lot of papers over there.

[811] No, no, no, no. Those are just in case paper.

[812] I am too.

[813] It's the safety net I don't even need.

[814] So there's a kid sitting behind me and he taps me on the shoulder and he says, hey, I'm just an extra.

[815] I don't even really have any lines.

[816] Maybe he had a line or two or something.

[817] He's like, I actually work at a bank, but I was interested in getting into acting and I got this opportunity.

[818] But anyway, what I really wanted to say is that, I don't know why they keep making you do this over and over again because I think you're doing a good job.

[819] Oh.

[820] And I don't understand what they're saying to you.

[821] It doesn't make any sense.

[822] Thank God for that banker.

[823] And he said, I hope I see you tomorrow.

[824] I hope this guy's listening right now.

[825] I hope he's like 10 dances.

[826] Yeah, yeah, who knows where the story is.

[827] So everyone leaves.

[828] Peter says this is what we're going to do, Mike.

[829] We're going to go through all of your scenes.

[830] in the whole movie.

[831] Just me, you and Sydney, and I'll read all the other parts.

[832] So we did that, and then Peter said, okay, you can go.

[833] Can I ask really quickly, are you even able to perform any of the rest at this point?

[834] Are you not in your head?

[835] Like, I feel like you're disassociating.

[836] I was in a bit of a fugue state, probably.

[837] Fuged.

[838] But, I mean, if I can lash back here, it wasn't like it was Hamlet or something.

[839] I mean, some crappy TV movie.

[840] I mean, it was a real piece of shit.

[841] So it wasn't like I had to use all of my powers or something to pull it off.

[842] So anyway, I walk home, and by the time I get home, there's a message from my agent and it says, you've been fired.

[843] Oh, my God.

[844] And then years later, I was in New York doing Killer Joe off Broadway.

[845] Peter Bogdanovich came to see it one night with Sidney Poitier's wife.

[846] No way.

[847] Yeah.

[848] What?

[849] And we're in the dressing room after.

[850] And then stage manager's like, yeah, Peter Bogdanova's just here.

[851] He's really liked to meet everybody.

[852] And there he is with this little cravat on.

[853] He always wore it.

[854] He's like, just extraordinary, lovely, blah, dada.

[855] I'm just standing there staring out.

[856] I'm like, I'm glad you dug it.

[857] I'm like, do you remember me, man?

[858] Yeah.

[859] He's like, and he kind of, he's scared.

[860] Scared for Peter.

[861] He kind of gets a little ashen and he's like, yes, I remember.

[862] I'm like, that wasn't cool, man. Like, what the fuck?

[863] And he's like, Michael, I don't know.

[864] I don't know what he was talking about.

[865] He just didn't like you.

[866] I don't know why he didn't like.

[867] There's Sidney Pottie's wife standing there.

[868] And I'm like, what are you doing to hang out with Sini Pottie's wife?

[869] And then I moved to L .A. Killer Joe is what actually got me to move to L .A. Because when I did Killer Joe, I got a manager.

[870] And the first thing the manager says is you got to go to L .A. I said, I don't want to go to L .A. You see, you got to.

[871] I'll take care of you.

[872] And that was Lee Daniels.

[873] The Lee Daniels.

[874] Of Lee Daniels, the butler.

[875] He was your manager?

[876] Yes.

[877] What on earth is happening?

[878] What is happening?

[879] Sidney Poitie has weird spidey senses that people are fired on.

[880] Lee is your assistant slash man. What?

[881] He saw the play and he said, I want to represent you and I want you to go to L .A. And so I did.

[882] And then when I was living in L .A., I went to Coachella once.

[883] It was the year that Iggy Pop and the Stooges played.

[884] Back when Coachella was, I might offend somebody.

[885] I don't know.

[886] Be careful.

[887] Yeah, yeah.

[888] You don't want the Coachella's after you.

[889] Yeah.

[890] The Gucci's.

[891] I was standing out there in the mob, and the guy walks up and he taps me on his shoulder, and I turn it on.

[892] He says, hey, I'm like, hi.

[893] He's like, you don't remember me?

[894] I'm like, no. He said, dude, okay, you remember to serve with love part two?

[895] And I'm like, yeah He's like, you remember that day Where they made you do that scene over and over again And then they sent everybody home You remember the guy who sat behind you And tapped you on your shoulder and said you were doing a good job I'm like, yeah He's like, that's me No way I'm like, oh man, I'm sorry It's been a minute Yes, frankly it was a traumatic experience And I tried to block it out of my memory I'm like, well, so What are you doing?

[896] Have you become an actor?

[897] Have you following your dreams?

[898] He's like, yes, I quit the bank and I came to L .A. and I'm going for it.

[899] I'm like, how's it working out?

[900] And he's like, it's tough.

[901] But I think I'm making some progress.

[902] I said, yeah, well, good luck.

[903] Nice to see you.

[904] So then a few years later, I'm going to meet Oliver Stone, read for World Trade Center.

[905] And I walk into the lobby and there's a cat sitting there and he looks at me. I say, hey, hi.

[906] He's like, don't you remember?

[907] I'm like, I'm sorry you think you deserve to get fired from that movie.

[908] I'm like, I'm sorry.

[909] He's like, dude, I saw you at Coachella.

[910] Oh, my God.

[911] I was the guy.

[912] I said nice things to you when you, that day you got fired.

[913] I'm like, all right.

[914] Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[915] I'm going to ask.

[916] Promise third will be the charm.

[917] Yeah.

[918] I'm like, hey, you're here.

[919] Are you going to meet Mr. Stone?

[920] He's like, yeah.

[921] I'm like, well, that's doing great.

[922] You can audition for all of Stone.

[923] He's like, yeah.

[924] I am.

[925] I'm doing pretty good.

[926] I'm like, yeah, well, congratulations.

[927] And it's Michael Pena.

[928] No. No. Wait.

[929] No way.

[930] I'm like jogging my mind of every Chicago actor I know.

[931] And of course, Pena.

[932] And he's the same age as us.

[933] Yeah, you guys are all the same age.

[934] Oh, my God.

[935] Do you know I directed a movie with him in it?

[936] Oh, really?

[937] Yeah, Chips, he and I. Oh, right.

[938] He ended up coming to know him very, very well.

[939] I can't believe that was pain.

[940] How sweet of him, too, to say, of course he said that.

[941] Yeah, yeah.

[942] Oh, my God.

[943] Did either of you get World Trade Center?

[944] I can't remember.

[945] Yeah, it's him and Nicholas K. Oh, I guess they're worked out.

[946] And I'm in it.

[947] I play a very stoic individual.

[948] They get buried in the rubble, their first responders, and I find them because I'm a Marine.

[949] You're a hound dog.

[950] Wow.

[951] What a story.

[952] Fucking A, that was Pena.

[953] I like one of.

[954] text him now and say I'm so proud of him for...

[955] I don't know if he will corroborate.

[956] Well, we did this movie together 12 Strong.

[957] We were in Alamagordo, New Mexico, which is where they used to test the bombs.

[958] It's supposed to be Afghanistan.

[959] And we were all staying out and this holiday inn in the middle of nowhere.

[960] And the only place to go at night was Chili's.

[961] Safe port and a storm Chili's.

[962] Yeah.

[963] Things got a little out of hand to the Chili sometimes.

[964] Oh, that.

[965] By the way, you know, in Bolingbrook, Me, Kekner, and Arnett were blasting the chilies every night.

[966] That's where we were at every night.

[967] Same six.

[968] You can't eat there.

[969] No, it's, yes, yes, yes.

[970] I don't want to rule them out.

[971] Can't eat at chilies every night.

[972] Arnette and I were eating the salad thinking we were winning like, oh, yeah, we'll just have a sale.

[973] Oh, yeah.

[974] I have you no idea.

[975] It was like $3 ,600.

[976] Yeah.

[977] With the little sour cream.

[978] Yeah.

[979] 3 ,600 calories?

[980] I don't know.

[981] They're not enough.

[982] When they started printing the calories on the menu.

[983] Okay, I'm going to tell you something.

[984] But if this winds up on the show Trust me, we would never ever do that.

[985] We cut anything out.

[986] No, because it's actually very incriminating of me. Okay.

[987] Actually, you could put it in the show.

[988] I don't know how he'd feel about it.

[989] Things went a little south with me and Michael.

[990] Okay.

[991] Because one night, we were at Chili's.

[992] And I did this thing.

[993] I can't believe I'm telling you this.

[994] It's so mean.

[995] We'd had a very long day, and I was a little out of sorts.

[996] I think I might have had like a sunstroke or something.

[997] I don't know.

[998] I suddenly got this wild hair at my ass to put a little halapeno scene on my thumb.

[999] Uh -huh.

[1000] And Michael was talking.

[1001] And I was like, you know, uh -huh, uh -huh.

[1002] You're going to make me leave after I tell you this.

[1003] No, no, I won't.

[1004] And I just rubbed the seed on his eye lid.

[1005] Not on his eyeball.

[1006] On the lid.

[1007] And he's like, uh -uh.

[1008] And he's just like, what did you just do to me?

[1009] I'm like, I'm sorry.

[1010] I shouldn't have done that.

[1011] I don't know if I. I'm losing my mind out here in the New Mexico desert.

[1012] And he's like, we're going outside, man. We're going outside right now.

[1013] And we went outside and he was just like, you piece of shit.

[1014] What the fuck's wrong with you?

[1015] I'm like, man, I'm sorry.

[1016] Yeah, that was.

[1017] He's like, we're going to go.

[1018] We're going to go.

[1019] I'm like, no, man. I don't want to fight.

[1020] We got to go to work tomorrow.

[1021] It'll go away.

[1022] You'll be fine.

[1023] The sting will subside.

[1024] Yeah.

[1025] Yeah, so that's Hollywood, baby.

[1026] Yeah.

[1027] What a rascal.

[1028] What could be more fun than working at that Chili's, and the first, it's exciting.

[1029] There's, like, some actors from Hollywood are here, and now all of a sudden the actors are on the parking lot.

[1030] It's like, this is curious.

[1031] This is how they put down.

[1032] Well, he's probably like, what is wrong with you?

[1033] Like, I was nice to you.

[1034] Right.

[1035] And you're rubbing a house.

[1036] And you forgot me two times.

[1037] Now I'm famous, and you're now hurting me. Yes.

[1038] No, he's got just to fire with grievances.

[1039] There's no doubt about it.

[1040] Oh, my Lord.

[1041] I mean, you can put it in a show anymore.

[1042] Okay.

[1043] Look, we've all done bad shit, though.

[1044] And we don't know why.

[1045] Monica's a thief.

[1046] She stole from people.

[1047] She's humiliated this poor black boy in the stool because...

[1048] You don't need to call him that.

[1049] Well, but then his father showed up and he was super handsome and then she regretted it.

[1050] I was like six.

[1051] Oh, my God.

[1052] That's the difference.

[1053] I was grown, I didn't.

[1054] I wasn't a child.

[1055] I was a grown man. I was expected to know the difference between right and right.

[1056] I have been proselytizing George and Tammy blown away.

[1057] It drives me in saying that I think it has something to do with maybe that it's on Showtime.

[1058] That's not where people are normally going to get.

[1059] But I don't know why it's not ubiquitous.

[1060] It's so fucking good.

[1061] I watch it so quickly.

[1062] But we're getting to that.

[1063] I just want to quickly ask because one of your first scenes ever in a movie was in Groundhog's Day.

[1064] Yeah.

[1065] And not only were you in a scene with Bill, but you're in the diner for all these times that they're reenacting.

[1066] You know, you're not even in it, but you're in the background.

[1067] So you're just watching.

[1068] Bill Murray for, I imagine, over a month.

[1069] Yeah, no, it was Paradise.

[1070] I felt very lucky to be there.

[1071] Especially coming out of Chicago.

[1072] I think he was kind of at the height of his powers.

[1073] I mean, the improvs he would do were just jaw -dropping.

[1074] And you had to struggle not to just sit there and stare at him, particularly if you're on camera because that would maybe get you fired.

[1075] And I didn't want to get fired again.

[1076] You know, he'd gone down that route.

[1077] But he was just so charismatic.

[1078] And there was one day where he would stand.

[1079] outside of the restaurant and listen to music on a boombox between setups and what kind of music this day in particular he was listening to talking heads and talking heads is Chicago well no they're not really Chicago they're more of a New York band oh I'm so embarrassed no don't be embarrassed don't be embarrassed David Burns not a Chicago one no I think they kind of met at Rhode Island School of Design and then they went to New York although Jerry Harrison was in modern lovers and then he came to talking his but anyway point Point being, the Talking Heads, particularly at that time, were my absolute favorite band ever.

[1080] There was a point in time where I could list the songs in album order on every Talking Heads album.

[1081] Like, I could just rattle them off without even thinking.

[1082] That's how much I love them.

[1083] So here's this guy that I'm very in love with.

[1084] And he's listening to my favorite band.

[1085] So I walked up and I said, Mr. Murray, you like the talking heads?

[1086] And he just looked at me like I was a moron.

[1087] And the thought being, well, I'm standing here listening to them.

[1088] I'm probably not going to stand here and listen to the music I don't like.

[1089] So, yeah, yeah, I do.

[1090] And it was just this very awkward exchange.

[1091] And I sheepishly kind of.

[1092] Can I interrupt you to say, it's hard for me to imagine you being earnest.

[1093] This is like the second or third story where you're like incredibly earnest.

[1094] And I'm having a hard time integrating my current opinion of you.

[1095] Well, I hope I don't seem disingenuine.

[1096] No. And there's just like a sweet earnestness.

[1097] to these early stories.

[1098] Oh, well, I was a sweet, sweet little boy, and then life just warped me in all the smithereens.

[1099] I mean, this is another, I got stories for days.

[1100] One day, Harold Ramos came up to me, and it was the lunch break, and he said, the bar set has a pool table.

[1101] I kind of feel like playing pool.

[1102] You want to play with me?

[1103] I said, are you kidding, Harold Rameh?

[1104] Yeah.

[1105] So we're playing pool, and he's like, so are you enjoying experience here?

[1106] I said, oh, very much.

[1107] but I think I upset Mr. Murray the other day.

[1108] Mr. Murray.

[1109] What did you do?

[1110] And I said, well, he was listening to Talking Heads.

[1111] And I went up and I asked him if he liked Talking Heads.

[1112] And then he looked at me funny.

[1113] And then I got embarrassed and I walked away.

[1114] And I kind of get the feeling he doesn't like me. Harold Ramos said, oh, that's not like him.

[1115] No, he doesn't have a problem with you.

[1116] I mean, why would Bill Murray have a problem with me?

[1117] I'm basically an extra.

[1118] honest.

[1119] Like Bill Murray goes home and then he's like, that kid, they don't get rid of that kid.

[1120] I don't know what I'm going to do.

[1121] He's in my eye line tomorrow.

[1122] But you had trauma.

[1123] You had previous trauma.

[1124] You're rubbing all the legends the wrong way.

[1125] I do.

[1126] I really do.

[1127] Let's face it, they feel threatened by me. They don't like when somebody's coming up their tailpipe.

[1128] Yeah, that's right.

[1129] We go to shoot finally the scene where I actually have a line or two of dialogue, the big dance at the end of the movie, where Bill Murray's leading Andy McDowell around showing how he's changed everyone's life in the little town.

[1130] And Harold says, okay, we're going to rehearse it.

[1131] We're going to show you how they're going to go around and where all the different people are going to be.

[1132] And then we'll come over to Fred and Debbie.

[1133] I was Fred, and Debbie was Hinden Walsh, this brilliant improviser from Chicago.

[1134] I've got to pause you to say, I've watched too many interviews with you in the last couple days.

[1135] And your retention for names is outstanding.

[1136] I don't know what freaky thing.

[1137] Well, I mean, Hinden Walsh is a hell of a name, I think.

[1138] It is a hell of a name.

[1139] And Harold says at this point, now before we've run this little scene, Michael, Bill would like to say something to you.

[1140] And I'm like, oh, God, heaven.

[1141] No, you didn't.

[1142] And Bill Murray turns to me and says, Mike, I like you.

[1143] It's okay.

[1144] And I'm like, oh, my God.

[1145] And I'm like, oh, my God.

[1146] And I'm like, what did he say to him?

[1147] What's happening right now?

[1148] This is so awful.

[1149] So then, years later, that's my favorite phrase.

[1150] You've got a lot of years later, actually.

[1151] Years and years later, I made this tiny little independent film called Return with Linda Cardalini.

[1152] We play a married couple and she's coming back from Iraq and she's having a hard time.

[1153] And we make this film and they show it at the Doville Film Festival, which is a really nice festival in France.

[1154] And before the screening, I go into the restaurant.

[1155] and standing at the sink is Bill Murray.

[1156] And I have not seen Bill Murray since he apologized to me for upsetting me. You're fragile.

[1157] I'm not kidding.

[1158] It's been at least 15 years.

[1159] And I'm like, do I say anything?

[1160] What do I do in this situation?

[1161] And I finally say, fuck it.

[1162] What do I got to lose?

[1163] And I say, excuse me, Bill, Mr. Murray.

[1164] I don't know if you remember me. He's like, yeah, Mike Shannon.

[1165] Come on.

[1166] And I'm like, yeah.

[1167] That's me. He says, yeah, you were in Groundhog Day.

[1168] I'm like, yeah, it was.

[1169] Turns out he was there because he's friends with Linda, and he was there to support the film and be nice.

[1170] But then we wound up after the film, going back to his gigantic hotel room and eating cheese and drinking wine until three in the morning.

[1171] Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[1172] That's a happy ending.

[1173] Yeah, yeah.

[1174] We like that.

[1175] That's better than the other.

[1176] You didn't put any hot pepper seats on the morning.

[1177] He's on his face.

[1178] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1179] I wish I had heard him say this earlier.

[1180] He was on Letterman, and Letterman's saying to him, you know, you started a comedic paradigm that is still being copied to this day.

[1181] Do you recognize that?

[1182] And he's like, you know, he can't take that compliment.

[1183] And he's like, what's the secret?

[1184] Bill said, well, if I can just relax, everything will come to me. And I was like, oh, isn't that the most important bit of fucking advice one could give?

[1185] And he's the master of that now.

[1186] He's pretty Zen, you know?

[1187] He just kind of seems like he's just enjoying himself.

[1188] As you've done this more and more and you've gotten more accolades, have you found that you're quicker to relax?

[1189] I guess, I mean, you don't want to get arrogant or pompous or anything and just be like, oh, I can do this in my sleep.

[1190] But you'd also be insane and a fool to not at.

[1191] have recognized that you have pulled it off in the past.

[1192] You're getting more and more proof that, yes, you can execute these ideas.

[1193] Well, I've been having this thought recently, it's funny you bring this up because it's gotten to the point now where I feel like all this stuff that I've done, it doesn't even seem like possible.

[1194] It seems like some other guy.

[1195] And then you think about younger periods of your life and how you've changed.

[1196] Because I do feel like when I go to work, I don't feel like I bring my resume.

[1197] with me in my knapsack or something like, well, I know what I'm doing because I've done all this other stuff.

[1198] It's still pretty mysterious.

[1199] But you don't have that sense of like you're a boxer.

[1200] You've been in 60 matches and you've not gotten your ass kicked.

[1201] At some point you go, I do pretty well in this ring.

[1202] I guess kind of the exciting thing about it is the more time you put in and the more credits you get, the bigger challenges are put in front of you.

[1203] George and Tammy.

[1204] Yeah.

[1205] That's a A huge challenge.

[1206] Oh, my God.

[1207] It's so terrifying.

[1208] You're playing a real person who sings and you're going to sing.

[1209] And there's a lot there to go wrong.

[1210] Yeah.

[1211] And it could have been easier.

[1212] It could have been a, well, we're just going to lip sync all this or just use the pre -records all the time.

[1213] But I was always thinking it was really important to use live takes because I felt like it really needed to feel as authentic as possible.

[1214] Most of the shows we're seen are these kind of very low -fi shows.

[1215] So if it sounds ultra -produced with you in a studio, it's like in conflict with what we're seen visually.

[1216] Right.

[1217] Which is like the sound should be a little shitty in this place.

[1218] They weren't always perfect either, you know.

[1219] Right.

[1220] They didn't always hit everything else.

[1221] This guy was juggling one of the great bouts of alcoholists ever witnessed on planet Earth.

[1222] You think he was great all the time?

[1223] I'm sure a lot of people saw the Elvis Lane on the stage version of George Jones.

[1224] Oh, yeah.

[1225] And you were delighted to see that just because that was part of what you were getting.

[1226] with him anyways.

[1227] Yeah, there was a clip I'd watch a lot because Jessica and I were always watching performances when we'd be getting ready for stuff.

[1228] And one that both of us watched a lot was when they do Golden Ring together, I believe it's at Wembley in England.

[1229] And he's completely bad shit out of his mind on booze and coke.

[1230] And you can just tell he's in a tremendous amount of pain and trying to play it off like he's having the time of his life.

[1231] But it's all a huge fat lie.

[1232] Oh, that's the key right there.

[1233] Yeah, yeah.

[1234] He still somehow manages to sing fairly well, but it literally seems like he's about to have a nervous breakdown.

[1235] And then Tammy's just completely high as a kite on what she's on.

[1236] Well, she's a junkie at this point.

[1237] Yeah.

[1238] Yeah.

[1239] A, everyone should watch this show.

[1240] It is the fucking best kept secret, I think, right now of everything that's come out in the last year.

[1241] It's so incredible.

[1242] Thanks.

[1243] She's outstanding.

[1244] And I think it's compounded by the fact that I had just seen her in Tammy Fay 10 minutes ago.

[1245] And then I tune this on.

[1246] You know, you get that feeling sometimes where you're like, the fact that this person isn't being carried around town on a sedan chair or something.

[1247] There's just something so miraculous about this person.

[1248] Everyone should be thinking about this all the time.

[1249] And yet, for me, you've already had such a great career, but it's just such a huge breakthrough.

[1250] I'm just watching it going like, my God, did he channeled this thing?

[1251] This is the role he was born to play.

[1252] This is it.

[1253] It's so funny because, I mean, they had to back me into the stable like a wild horse to get me. I was like, I'm not playing George Jones.

[1254] This cannot happen.

[1255] I hardly know anything about the man. There must be tons of actors that, A, look more like George Jones or sound more like George Jones or all these things.

[1256] But Jessica was like, I think you can do it.

[1257] And I know you sing.

[1258] Has she seen your band?

[1259] Yeah.

[1260] Because back when we were doing Take Shelter, she did the sweetest thing.

[1261] We did take shelter in this tiny town in Ohio called Grafton.

[1262] And they had one block long downtown.

[1263] And I was staying in basically an abandoned building.

[1264] It was like an empty storefront that had an apartment on top of it.

[1265] I was so scared at night I slept with the lights on because I was the only person in downtown Grafton after like 11 p .m. But there was also a little bar that served hamburgers and stuff and they had a jukebox.

[1266] And Jessica got one of my CD because I've made one CD with the band and she got them to put it on the jukebox.

[1267] Oh, man. Oh, man. So we both wondered over the years, A, if the bar is still there, and if they had the jukebox, is the CD still on there.

[1268] It's almost worth going for a visit.

[1269] You should do one of your press opportunities.

[1270] Yeah, yeah.

[1271] So she talked me into it.

[1272] But it was really interesting, because I was thinking earlier when we were talking about million little pieces and the reliability of things, because the first thing I went out and did is I got his autobiography.

[1273] I started reading that because that's what any semi -intelligent person would do in that situation, I think.

[1274] But then you start realizing, well, how much of this is true, particularly things like the stuff with the rifle at Christmas time, did he shoot it, did he try to shoot her, all this?

[1275] You know, he says, hell no, I didn't do that.

[1276] Then you read her book, and he's like, oh, no, he did it.

[1277] Shot up the whole house at Christmas.

[1278] And then you have George Hitt's book, and you just keep getting slightly different versions of the story, and you're trying to figure out, hmm, well, which version do I go with?

[1279] That was tricky.

[1280] He shot a guy, though.

[1281] He shot at his best friend, Peanut Montgomery.

[1282] He didn't hit him.

[1283] Okay.

[1284] But he shot at him.

[1285] And that was a big deal.

[1286] And I met Earl Peanut Montgomery.

[1287] He was one of Georgia's best friends.

[1288] He's the one who ended up getting sober and finding.

[1289] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1290] Oh, that's heartbreaking because he takes you in.

[1291] You fuck that all.

[1292] Yeah, yeah.

[1293] It's so hard to watch a drunk in the middle of the hurricanes.

[1294] Yeah.

[1295] But Peanuts in the show, you know.

[1296] There's a scene where I'm sleeping in my car and I get out of the car.

[1297] and there's an old fellow playing a guitar and singing a song.

[1298] Oh, that's him.

[1299] That's Pina.

[1300] Oh, wow.

[1301] It's kind of funny because you trying to decipher what's the truth doesn't really matter, right?

[1302] Because you just need to know his truth according to him.

[1303] Right.

[1304] Which is not necessarily the reality.

[1305] The Queen's truth.

[1306] Yeah, the Queen's truth.

[1307] Right.

[1308] But it doesn't really matter.

[1309] Well, a lot of it's at the end of the day is dictated by what Abe Sylvia, our creator, wrote.

[1310] Nobody did more research than Abe did.

[1311] I mean, Abe was with this project for over a decade, and he interviewed every single person there was interview.

[1312] Ultimately, I wind up following his lead mostly.

[1313] In all of your music obsession, did you ever go down a country rabbit hole?

[1314] I do love country music.

[1315] I've always been fond of Hank Williams.

[1316] What about whaling?

[1317] I like whaling.

[1318] I think my favorite is the real old -timey stuff.

[1319] Right, the early grand old opera stuff.

[1320] Yeah, I mean, I got really into, when I was working on this, I said, well, who did George listen to, Hank and Lepti Frizzell?

[1321] I hadn't ever heard Lepti Frizzell before the show, and then I started listening to him.

[1322] He's incredible.

[1323] He didn't quite have the dynamics that George had, but I could definitely see why George idolized him.

[1324] And, you know, Roy Aikoff.

[1325] I mean, I'm a Kentucky boy, so, you know, Bill Monroe, the bluegrass scene.

[1326] But I'm also a big fan of, like, some of the more alt -country later.

[1327] stuff like grand parsons or towns van zan i went deep into the outlaw country world yeah from 22 to 28 it's almost all i listened to and i read wayland's autobiography obsessed with waylon my bus has waylon's logo on the back you should do a wayland jenny show on a gray howling there go load them rodin these highways my obsession i now recognize and i'm just curious if you can relate to this is they're the fantasy that I could live as gnarly as I want to.

[1328] And occasionally, my art will be so good that everyone will overlook everything.

[1329] Yeah.

[1330] I mean, that's the fantasy that's on the table so prevalent in that era of country.

[1331] Every song's about cheating on your wife.

[1332] Everyone's boxing everyone around.

[1333] Everyone's a fucking addict.

[1334] And yet the music whitewashes the whole thing.

[1335] And I think that's really was my dream for my life that I'd somehow have some art that would excuse however I wanted to live.

[1336] Yes.

[1337] Can you relaying it all to that fantasy?

[1338] Oh, I can relate to it.

[1339] But ultimately, it just doesn't, I mean, it can work that way.

[1340] I think it depends on A, if you have a family.

[1341] I mean, like, once you start having kids and stuff like that, no matter how brilliant your art is, they don't give a...

[1342] Yeah, your kids are going to give a crap about that.

[1343] They're going to hate your art no matter what.

[1344] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1345] And they're not going to forgive you for anything.

[1346] Yeah, because you made a nice movie.

[1347] Well, the truth I discovered, if I can say it is, whether or not everyone else excuses it, you're still stuck with yourself.

[1348] That's the part of the fantasy I never wanted to acknowledge.

[1349] It's like, I will be suffering when I behave like that.

[1350] Forget everyone else.

[1351] Even if I pull this off, people still want to take my calls and go out to the bar with me, knowing I might fight one of the people with us, I'm stuck with me. That's like the realization that got me sober.

[1352] It's like, well, yeah, I'm fooling everyone but me. Yeah, that's true.

[1353] That's always the thorniest patch is when you just left alone with your own situation there.

[1354] That can be pretty perplexing.

[1355] I pray everyone sees it.

[1356] I mean, I think you're absolutely winning an Emmy for this.

[1357] I mean, it's so.

[1358] You think so?

[1359] Yes.

[1360] I don't know.

[1361] Evan Peters.

[1362] Dahmer.

[1363] Dalmer.

[1364] Okay.

[1365] That's the comp.

[1366] You know, I started Dalmer, and I'm very sensitive to smells.

[1367] The whole pilot is set in an apartment that all the neighbors have complained smells like rotten corpses.

[1368] So all these scenes I'm watching, all I can do is smell what this apartment smells like.

[1369] I just physically couldn't get through it because I was like, oh, my God, this apartment has to be so.

[1370] You should get some of that salt and rub it under your nose.

[1371] Yes.

[1372] Yeah, yeah.

[1373] It reminds me when I was a roofer, we one time had to clean out the basement of a slaughterhouse in Detroit.

[1374] All the traps had backed up.

[1375] So all the sludge filled up.

[1376] When we walked down there, we were like just below the knees in sludge.

[1377] And there were these huge eight -by -eight -foot slots in the ground where it was supposed to be contained.

[1378] So you had to really be careful where you walked or you could fall in over your head in it.

[1379] Oh, my God.

[1380] The smell was so disgusting that you had to be smoking a cigarette 100 % of the time you were down there.

[1381] It was like we were working.

[1382] You just had to have a cigarette going at all times.

[1383] What's the map?

[1384] Camelites.

[1385] Camelites.

[1386] Yeah.

[1387] Were you a smoker?

[1388] You are a smoker.

[1389] Did you ever have a camelite's face?

[1390] Camelites all the rage.

[1391] Turkish blend.

[1392] Beautiful cigarette.

[1393] We've had a few people smoking here.

[1394] You could have done it.

[1395] No, no, no, no. American spirits, I think we get healthier from second hand of those.

[1396] All right.

[1397] Well, listen, I'm so glad of the timing of you coming here, I'm so delighted that it was on the heels of George and Tammy because I just have been nonstop talking about it.

[1398] And then you're in the flash, which is coming out.

[1399] I saw it last night.

[1400] It's fun.

[1401] Ezra is just extraordinary.

[1402] Yeah.

[1403] I just learned this.

[1404] story in Brooklyn right across from the hotel there's a big flash billboard and my wife says oh my god that's finally coming out yeah and I go when did they make it she goes years ago and I had no idea about the Ezra situation and the multiple I guess mental health issues ultimately yeah well glass houses I always get so uncomfortable when people get under the magnifying glass like that some people really deserve it but I like Ezra and I think he's really special or they They are really special.

[1405] Yes.

[1406] And you're a bad guy?

[1407] Well, I'm Zad again, which was unusual.

[1408] Because you died in the man of steel.

[1409] He broke my neck.

[1410] So I was confused when the call came in, but they said, it's a multiverse, which is my new, it's my new catchphrase for everything.

[1411] I'm going to explain everything.

[1412] Yeah.

[1413] That doesn't make sense.

[1414] It's a multiverse.

[1415] Why haven't you done the dishes?

[1416] I did them.

[1417] I did them in another universe.

[1418] Unfortunately for you.

[1419] A couple of other universes.

[1420] Not all them.

[1421] I'm going to be honest, there's a lot of these universes.

[1422] I did what I did in this one, which is not do them.

[1423] Well, there's one universe where I didn't even use any dishes.

[1424] I just ate off the table.

[1425] And then Eric Leroux?

[1426] Yeah, I finally directed a movie.

[1427] This beer is making me burp, man. Well, isn't that what beer is supposed to do?

[1428] That is.

[1429] Well, we've got our first complaint about the product.

[1430] First guest to drink at first complaint.

[1431] Well, we just started throwing up in control.

[1432] No, it's still delicious.

[1433] I'm continuing to drink it because I'm quite fond of it, but it is making you both.

[1434] So for those of you listening, wherever you might be listening, we just premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival.

[1435] The real short version, I guess, would be Eric Leroux is a high school student who commits a shooting at his school.

[1436] Fictitious or a real person?

[1437] It's fictitious.

[1438] Okay.

[1439] And he shoots three of his classmates and he winds up in prison.

[1440] the movie is focused on his parents, particularly his mother, trying to deal with the aftermath of that is a hard thing to recover from.

[1441] Oh, God, yeah.

[1442] I stay on here all the time that my mom growing up, and I thank her for this so much.

[1443] Every time someone get killed in a drunk driving accident, this happened nonstop where I'm from.

[1444] That's unfortunate.

[1445] Yeah, but weren't they a dime a dozen around you two?

[1446] Like high school kids?

[1447] There were several in my town.

[1448] You know, it was always a driver and a passenger.

[1449] and my mother would always say, oh, the poor driver and the poor parents of the driver.

[1450] It was like where her mind would go immediately to it.

[1451] You have both a tragedy and you have this sense of responsibility.

[1452] It's like a double whammy.

[1453] I think it's a healthy perspective to have, even in the worst situations.

[1454] Not only did they lose their son, just like the victim's parents lost their son, but they are also culpable.

[1455] Yeah.

[1456] Did you have access to anyone who's been in that situation?

[1457] You can actually watch on YouTube, I don't know if they were TED Talks or something, but there's one mother in particular.

[1458] Excuse me, a mother of one of the Columbine shooters.

[1459] This fear's really fucking...

[1460] No, no, no, that's just something else.

[1461] Something else.

[1462] Something else.

[1463] And then pain you walked in?

[1464] Yeah.

[1465] And the whole thing was a big getting you back.

[1466] Yeah.

[1467] You can watch, it's very moving, actually.

[1468] One of the mothers of one of the Columbine shooters talking about basically the same thing.

[1469] Usually they wind up leaving, you know, and getting divorced.

[1470] That's very common.

[1471] Yeah, yeah.

[1472] But the screenplay is based on a play that we did at our theater back in 2002, and it's oddly.

[1473] Exactly still irrelevant.

[1474] So it's crazy.

[1475] And you have two little girls, you know?

[1476] Sylvia just turned 15.

[1477] Not a little girl now.

[1478] Yeah.

[1479] And Marion's nine.

[1480] Are you starting to panic at all?

[1481] Not like they're going to date boys, but the experience of them in your home is, coming to an end and that seems tragic to me. You know, you hear a lot of times it goes so fast and really cherish it, but I guess probably because I don't think one of my strengths is like taking care of other people necessarily that I might be okay with them being self -sufficient.

[1482] As long as they don't completely ignore me, as long as they're willing to get lunch every now and then.

[1483] Yeah.

[1484] I mean, it's not like I didn't do it, but I never imagined that I would be like a family guy.

[1485] I think probably because of how we started this whole conversation.

[1486] It didn't exactly set the table for the joys of family life.

[1487] So it was kind of a surprise.

[1488] Having said that, they're my two favorite people on earth, and I adore both of them.

[1489] But Sylvie's very self -sufficient, and I find it kind of thrilling, because when she was born, I was a nervous wreck all the time.

[1490] That she would get hurt.

[1491] Yeah, just everything.

[1492] Why her eyelids so red?

[1493] What's happening?

[1494] Is she getting enough iron?

[1495] It's just always worrying, worrying, worrying.

[1496] Yeah, what about when they would take, like, a suspiciously long nap?

[1497] Yeah, yeah.

[1498] It's like, first you're really delighted, like, oh, my God, then she's going to go two hours.

[1499] And then, like, two and a half hours, you're like, oh, my God, we've got to go see if she's breathing.

[1500] That's honest.

[1501] I like that.

[1502] Because I feel like everyone's just like, oh, it's the best and I meant to.

[1503] And it's good to hear multiple sides of it.

[1504] I'm just very lucky because they still pay attention to me. And we get along.

[1505] I mean, I'm sure at some point, inevitably.

[1506] you get to, you know, you ruined my life, a chapter.

[1507] Yep.

[1508] I've already been laying track for that.

[1509] I've been saying to both of them, you're going to be in therapy.

[1510] And I am going to be the root of all your problems.

[1511] Right.

[1512] But I only ask one thing.

[1513] When your therapist says, did your dad adore you?

[1514] You've got to answer that, honestly.

[1515] Which is, I fucking adore you.

[1516] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1517] You are everything to me. Now however much I'm fucking out.

[1518] He was so controlling.

[1519] He told me what to say in therapy in 20 years.

[1520] We used to practice therapy.

[1521] We'd have therapy rehearsals.

[1522] This is going to have a good sense.

[1523] So I'm the therapist.

[1524] Mommy's the therapist.

[1525] Okay, honey, ask her.

[1526] Ask her.

[1527] Do you mind if I film this?

[1528] I just want to be able to look at it later on.

[1529] All right.

[1530] Well, I wish you a ton of luck with Eric Leroux.

[1531] That is a very intriguing premise for a movie.

[1532] I want to see that.

[1533] Well, we have the mighty Judy Greer as the star of our film.

[1534] Oh, you do.

[1535] Yes, we love her.

[1536] Janice.

[1537] Has she been on the show?

[1538] Not yet.

[1539] We've tried.

[1540] We've had a few scheduling hiccups.

[1541] You should get her on.

[1542] We're friendly with her.

[1543] Promoting this film.

[1544] Yeah, Eric Leroux.

[1545] And then the bike riders.

[1546] It's another Jeff Nichols movie.

[1547] Is this four?

[1548] Let's see.

[1549] Shotgun Stories take shelter, mud, midnight special, Loving.

[1550] So that's five.

[1551] So this is number six.

[1552] But he hasn't made a movie since Loving, which has been a minute.

[1553] I'm glad he's finally getting to make something.

[1554] But this is a real departure for him.

[1555] It's about a motorcycle gang.

[1556] Chicago.

[1557] Oh, my God.

[1558] What era?

[1559] Late 60s, early 70s.

[1560] Sign me up.

[1561] There's a photo essay book called The Bike Writers.

[1562] Jeff's had this book for years and years and years and years and he's always wanted to make a movie out of it, so he finally got around to it.

[1563] And it's Tom Hardy, Austin Butler, and Jody Comer, who's on Broadway right now.

[1564] She just won the Tony Award.

[1565] Oh, wow.

[1566] Wow.

[1567] So, and it's just got a bunch of motorcycles and tough guys in it.

[1568] Tom Hardy.

[1569] Another guy I like LA Confidential, where I'm watching Piki Blinders.

[1570] And I'm like, oh, this guy's got all of them on it.

[1571] No matter what his scene is or what the dynamics are.

[1572] Yeah.

[1573] But he's actually quite sweet, too.

[1574] I'm known him for a minute.

[1575] The first time I met him was before he'd become.

[1576] Tom Hardy.

[1577] Yeah.

[1578] We were just doing a play rating together.

[1579] And he's sober, too.

[1580] Oh, he is.

[1581] Oh, then we can get along famously.

[1582] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1583] All right, everyone, go to Showtime.

[1584] Even if you've got to buy it for a month to watch George and Tammy.

[1585] I watched it in two days.

[1586] Aaron and I were on a ski trip.

[1587] That's where we watched it.

[1588] So we would ski in the day and that night and I'd be like, Georgia, where were you skiing?

[1589] Vale, first trip to Vail.

[1590] He had learned to ski six weeks before.

[1591] And I was like, well, then we got to go to Vail.

[1592] I haven't seen 30 years you skied six weeks ago for the first time.

[1593] Let's go to Vail and go ski.

[1594] Was it scary?

[1595] Those are big hills there.

[1596] They're enormous.

[1597] They're enormous.

[1598] Yeah.

[1599] If Aaron wasn't there, I probably would have been more focused on how much peril I was in.

[1600] But because I was so nervous for him, I didn't think about myself much.

[1601] He had some tumbles, but he shook them all off.

[1602] And each day of skiing, he had less tumbles.

[1603] And by the end, I think we had a day where he'd only crash one time.

[1604] So it was a major victory.

[1605] And we were watching George and Tammy at nights and eating really good meals.

[1606] And we're both dirt road kids.

[1607] So this was like, what are we doing?

[1608] Where were you getting the food from?

[1609] The hotel.

[1610] Oh, nice.

[1611] A very nice hotel, good food.

[1612] We did not belong there.

[1613] And we were loving every second of it.

[1614] All right.

[1615] So watch all that stuff.

[1616] George and Tammy, Eric Lrew.

[1617] the bike riders whenever that comes out when's that come out jeff just locked picture on it so it'll probably be out in the fall okay great you had 10 roles in 2016 i think that's so preposterous jesus what were they who knows it takes too long to 10 wow yeah i guess that's my last question for you is the transition and maybe you never had this but i had like i better take every fucking opportunity that comes my way my assumption is i'm going to get kicked out of this business in any second that's how i've proceeded through the whole time.

[1618] I never found it in film, but at least on TV.

[1619] I had a moment a few years ago or I was on two different TV shows at the same time, and they both had opened well.

[1620] And I thought, I'll be able to act on TV if I want to.

[1621] Like, I finally accept that.

[1622] Have you ever had that same urgency that you can't miss an opportunity?

[1623] And have you, as well, transitioned to like, no, no, now I can do this from a different point of view.

[1624] Yeah.

[1625] You know, when I started out, I was in Chicago and I was doing theater, and I'd be lucky to get day player gigs, little parts here and there.

[1626] And then people always ask, like, well, what was the big break?

[1627] And I was like, I don't know if I can really put my finger on what the big break was.

[1628] It just kind of incrementally got a little more expansive as I went.

[1629] I mean, the thing I have to fall back on is I really love doing theater.

[1630] So if I ever get excommunicated from Hollywood, I can just go do that and be content.

[1631] As long as I can pay my bills, I'd probably have to downsize a little bit.

[1632] For me, at the end of the day, it's not so much, oh, I'm my mind.

[1633] am I going to be allowed to keep doing this or not?

[1634] But there's just so much stuff getting made.

[1635] And it could be possible that there's too much stuff getting made.

[1636] So what I'm constantly thinking about is why does this thing need to exist?

[1637] Who effing cares?

[1638] Is there any tangible, discernible reason that this, whether it's movie or TV show, is going to contribute anything to anybody?

[1639] If I can come up with an answer to that question, And then I think, well, it might be worth doing, you know.

[1640] And then there's other factors, like, obviously we're seeing right now with the writer's strike and whatnot that people are getting taken advantage of.

[1641] And the people that don't actually really know how to do much of anything are taking all the damn money.

[1642] And the people that are giving of themselves and creating something.

[1643] Excuse me. It was kind of working, though.

[1644] It sounded like you were getting really choked up during this point.

[1645] Oh, my God.

[1646] I was like, oh, my God.

[1647] You really care about the writer's show.

[1648] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1649] People who hear this episode, they're like, gee, Michael Schenelner, like, he really cares about those writers.

[1650] Well, I should be out picketing.

[1651] You're tall.

[1652] I'll go there after.

[1653] You're tall.

[1654] That's his excuse.

[1655] Yeah, you'll stick out.

[1656] It's too much to ask of you.

[1657] It's harder for us to stand up for a long period of time.

[1658] Yeah, it is.

[1659] It's hard on our lower back.

[1660] The leverage is against us.

[1661] Yes, this big head.

[1662] We have a high center of gravity.

[1663] That's right.

[1664] Bad design.

[1665] Lose our balance.

[1666] But there's some days where I've been doing it long enough where I think, maybe I should go see if I know how to do anything else.

[1667] There's a lot going on in the world right now, and sometimes this doesn't feel like maybe the most important thing.

[1668] But that's why I, what I'm considering whether to do something, I really try and think about, well, could this have some value or meaning for people?

[1669] Yeah.

[1670] Well, I'll tell you this.

[1671] I'm very flattered to have worked with you.

[1672] Truly.

[1673] Thanks, Dex.

[1674] Yeah.

[1675] Like when I evaluate the whole ride, a big part of it is like, yeah, I got to be in scenes with this dude who.

[1676] who I think is a once a generation.

[1677] I'm so blown away.

[1678] O'Don Kirk was right when he said it's a big get.

[1679] It was worth calling this theater and trying to wake the guy up who's sleeping in the greener.

[1680] Yeah.

[1681] Very big get.

[1682] So, yeah, I am personally, every time I see you be brilliant, which is quite frequently, I'm like, I also was with him in some scenes.

[1683] This feel I like this.

[1684] You can play six degrees of Mike Shannon.

[1685] Yes.

[1686] You would be the heir apparent to Kevin Bacon.

[1687] It's just like, oh, that's right.

[1688] He was in that.

[1689] Oh, yeah.

[1690] Of course he was in Batman.

[1691] What?

[1692] Yeah.

[1693] Yeah.

[1694] And in the flesh.

[1695] All right.

[1696] Well, great seeing you.

[1697] I love catching up.

[1698] And good luck on all the stuff.

[1699] Thank you.

[1700] Stay tuned for the facts.

[1701] So you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

[1702] We just had a good time you and me and Wobbywob.

[1703] Interviewing Armcherrys on Armchair Anonymous.

[1704] We just had some laughs.

[1705] Did we have some laughs or what?

[1706] Some big old chuckles.

[1707] Belly chuckles.

[1708] Yeah, it was fun.

[1709] Oh, my gosh.

[1710] A couple of real barn burners.

[1711] I said it on the intro, but worth repeating, the Pena story is so good.

[1712] It's a 12.

[1713] It is so good.

[1714] Three times.

[1715] And also, but the way he tells the story.

[1716] Yes.

[1717] It's so good and so funny and so stupid.

[1718] I'm like, oh, yeah, that's like great.

[1719] That was a highlight from me. Yeah, he's a very, very unique human being.

[1720] So unique.

[1721] Yeah, it's really fun to be around someone who's so original.

[1722] Yeah.

[1723] What's up?

[1724] I'll tell you what's up.

[1725] You threw a hell of a party, a great gathering.

[1726] You were the hub of all the friends.

[1727] And we had so much fun.

[1728] Yeah, we went to.

[1729] In Indio -ish, a Palm Desert.

[1730] Outside of Palm Desert.

[1731] It was so fun, so hot.

[1732] Insanely hot.

[1733] Insanely hot.

[1734] I mean, I'm trying to think of a bit.

[1735] It did remind me of when we were all up in Sedona.

[1736] Exactly.

[1737] I thought the same thing.

[1738] I was like, oh, it's the same heat.

[1739] Yeah.

[1740] And where you kind of live for the evening.

[1741] Yeah.

[1742] Yeah, like that sunset's so magical and the night is so magical, laying on warm surfaces, be it concrete or asphalt.

[1743] Exactly.

[1744] Yeah.

[1745] But we had a pool, which is nice.

[1746] In Sedona, we didn't have a pool.

[1747] Well, but you had a hotel room to go to the...

[1748] Oh, we did.

[1749] We did add that in.

[1750] Yeah, that was fun.

[1751] I had Top Gear get me that room, so we'd have a pool and a burger.

[1752] Remember that fucking brisket top burger?

[1753] I loved it.

[1754] Oh, Jesus.

[1755] We love our burgers.

[1756] We sure do.

[1757] We love our burgers.

[1758] I could go for a burger right now.

[1759] Me too.

[1760] I got to smash my face right into a burger.

[1761] Yeah, so that was fun.

[1762] That was our 4th of July.

[1763] You saw a few fireworks.

[1764] You know, and I left at night.

[1765] Yes.

[1766] Because I was, it was so hot.

[1767] Big Brown never has ever, well, it did overheat once, but I had a blown hose.

[1768] But in general, if cooling systems working, I've driven it through all the deserts, gone fast, and never had a heating issue.

[1769] On the way into India, we went this back route, and we were in the dead center of the desert.

[1770] It was crazy.

[1771] And we hadn't been out of the bus since.

[1772] Idaho.

[1773] So the last temperature we felt was 68.

[1774] Yeah.

[1775] And so I just start noticing the temperatures getting a little warm me like getting warm.

[1776] That's a new error message I've never seen.

[1777] So the whole ride to the house having to often drive way slower to keep the bus from overheating.

[1778] I've never been in that sit.

[1779] Wow.

[1780] So then I was like, I don't want to be on July 5th traffic in that heat.

[1781] If it's what I think it's going to be huge traffic jam, I'm going to leave at night, which we did.

[1782] And the entire ride was fireworks out my window.

[1783] It's nice.

[1784] Because when you're on the 10 and the 210, there's cities to the north and the south.

[1785] They're everywhere.

[1786] Yeah.

[1787] And you can just see across the horizon, yeah, there wasn't a moment there wasn't fireworks going off.

[1788] The whole right home.

[1789] Yeah, that's nice.

[1790] Two hours and 10 minutes.

[1791] So long.

[1792] So many fireworks.

[1793] Do the math, Monica.

[1794] Okay, there was never not a firework.

[1795] That's 130 minutes.

[1796] Great.

[1797] We're off to a great star.

[1798] So if there was a firework a minute, you saw 130 fireworks.

[1799] Well, what I'm claiming is there was never a moment in the sky where there wasn't one.

[1800] So we had to think of it, they explode.

[1801] And then what do you think you get out of it?

[1802] Five seconds?

[1803] Like two.

[1804] Two.

[1805] So 30, we would need 30 a minute times 130 minutes, 130 minutes, 3 ,000 and some fireworks, I witnessed.

[1806] Wow.

[1807] Wow.

[1808] Wow.

[1809] Wow.

[1810] Yeah.

[1811] Yeah, yeah.

[1812] You did it.

[1813] Fast mathy.

[1814] And you're about to go on vacation again.

[1815] Don't.

[1816] Yes, I am.

[1817] You're going to talk about it in every fact check.

[1818] I know.

[1819] I know.

[1820] I don't understand.

[1821] Well, you know, my...

[1822] You're going on vacation again.

[1823] I'm going on vacation.

[1824] Oh, wait, did you think it was about what day or did you think it was about...

[1825] I hate when it's clear I'm being Richie.

[1826] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1827] This is the latter, right?

[1828] I know, but like...

[1829] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1830] We're going to, yeah, do a fact check in two days and you're going to not be with me. You're gone now.

[1831] Yeah.

[1832] Well, yeah, this is Monday.

[1833] Okay, and are you excited for your new trip?

[1834] Oh, my God, yes.

[1835] Yes, yes, yes, extremely excited.

[1836] I think I will always, to a fall, hope to recreate some of my childhood memories of summer.

[1837] And just the notion of small town maybe walk to get ice cream barefoot, maybe walk through the grass.

[1838] Yeah.

[1839] I want a rural pastoral.

[1840] small -towny walk -around feel.

[1841] That sounds really nice.

[1842] You know, I'm such a detailed fantasy.

[1843] It's clearly not going to live up to that.

[1844] But I have this very specific vibe I think I'll feel when I'm participating in that.

[1845] Yeah, that sounds very nice.

[1846] And you're, where are you going?

[1847] No way.

[1848] You're not going anywhere.

[1849] Full two and a half weeks.

[1850] No kidding.

[1851] Yeah.

[1852] I'm shocked.

[1853] You're a travel bug.

[1854] That's not the expression.

[1855] I am, but it didn't really make sense.

[1856] because I was thinking about staying in Europe.

[1857] Sure.

[1858] Because I was already there.

[1859] Yeah.

[1860] But I needed to come back because we have stuff to do.

[1861] Right.

[1862] You had to host a party trip.

[1863] I added that in once I realized like, oh, we're going to be working a little bit.

[1864] So I'll do that.

[1865] And then I don't want to.

[1866] I don't know.

[1867] I do really want to go to New York.

[1868] Yeah.

[1869] But it's going to be hot there right now, probably.

[1870] Plus, I, you know, I was talking to a friend about this yesterday.

[1871] I feel very grateful because I like coming home.

[1872] Right.

[1873] I mean, I love vacation.

[1874] I love traveling.

[1875] But I mean, it's a good indicator of how happy you are in your life.

[1876] I obviously am because I feel happy to come home.

[1877] Yeah.

[1878] I like that feeling because you.

[1879] You just take your environment for granted.

[1880] Yes.

[1881] And it's fun when you are away from it so long that you can see it again for the first time.

[1882] Yeah.

[1883] It's a good time to catch up.

[1884] It'll be like a good time to catch up on stuff.

[1885] Uh -huh.

[1886] Start your heavy weight lifting.

[1887] Yeah.

[1888] By the time, oh, when you get back, I'll have huge muscles.

[1889] Oh, my God, I can't wait to see.

[1890] Yeah.

[1891] Do you need the garage door opener for Black Mold Paradise?

[1892] Maybe.

[1893] Yeah.

[1894] That's where all the heavy lifting takes place.

[1895] Oh.

[1896] It's time for big boy stuff.

[1897] Okay.

[1898] Big girl stuff.

[1899] I'm going to do it.

[1900] All right, Black Mole Paradise.

[1901] Dan Gaines will greet you at the door.

[1902] Anywho, what am I going to eat for dinner?

[1903] Oh, what are you in the mood for?

[1904] Let's start there.

[1905] Cabbage?

[1906] No, okay.

[1907] I guess we could do process of elimination because I definitely don't want cats.

[1908] Rice?

[1909] I don't think so.

[1910] Poio?

[1911] Spanish chicken?

[1912] Spanish for chicken, yeah.

[1913] Oh, that's a ding, ding, ding.

[1914] Oh, okay.

[1915] Okay, right.

[1916] Because you talked about Mike the baby.

[1917] You talked about El Nino.

[1918] Yes, yes, Miguel El Nino.

[1919] Yeah.

[1920] And it can mean baby, but also means child.

[1921] Oh, okay.

[1922] It's often child, kid, boy.

[1923] Storm system.

[1924] Exactly.

[1925] When I first typed it in, I got a lot of...

[1926] Sure, a lot of hits.

[1927] Yep.

[1928] For El Nino.

[1929] So, yeah.

[1930] Great.

[1931] So the Mike the Baby is the literal definition.

[1932] Yeah.

[1933] Right.

[1934] really funny okay jd vance oh he came up he came up and i wonder if he'll ever have a rebuttal or a liable lawsuit you say it doesn't ring true to you it does ring true to me yeah that's what i say and that's thanks for legally yeah that's all that's okay for you to see i have no actual knowledge of that person whatsoever ooh i have a update i also recently went to the car a hotel.

[1935] Okay.

[1936] It was my first time.

[1937] Oh, it was.

[1938] Isn't it fun?

[1939] It's so fun.

[1940] It's so cute.

[1941] The food's delish.

[1942] Yes.

[1943] This is a hotel near us.

[1944] Uh -huh.

[1945] I recommend.

[1946] Yeah, big time.

[1947] And the vibe in there is so European, isn't it?

[1948] It is.

[1949] And I love a nice hotel bar or restaurant.

[1950] Yes.

[1951] But mainly bar.

[1952] Uh -huh.

[1953] And it has a very cool bar in there.

[1954] It's so cute.

[1955] drink at that bar or eat dinner?

[1956] I had a drink.

[1957] I had a martini.

[1958] Of course.

[1959] That room...

[1960] It begs for a martini.

[1961] Yeah, calls for a teeny.

[1962] And a cigarette.

[1963] I'd love to fucking light up a smoke in that room, yeah.

[1964] Well, that's illegal.

[1965] Yeah, yeah, sure.

[1966] I can't drink either, but...

[1967] Well, that's true.

[1968] Yeah, this is...

[1969] But you could have a nice Coke in there.

[1970] Diet Coke with some big cube ice cubes.

[1971] Like old -fashioned ice cubes.

[1972] Yeah.

[1973] And I don't want no crushed bullshit soda fountain.

[1974] nice because I'm in this bar.

[1975] I want to act like I'm having a cocktail.

[1976] Yeah.

[1977] Oh, at Kimmel's, they got the ice machine that makes the ball.

[1978] Like, it's like a, it's like a fucking racquetball size chunk of ice.

[1979] It's for whiskey.

[1980] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1981] And so many people have it.

[1982] They have a machine.

[1983] They can make them, yeah.

[1984] Oh, yeah.

[1985] I have one.

[1986] It's a cast.

[1987] Exactly.

[1988] Whatever.

[1989] It's like, what are they called ice sheets?

[1990] Wait, what are those called?

[1991] Tray.

[1992] Do you make both sides or it's airtight?

[1993] Yeah, so you close it.

[1994] It's two pieces that you close, and there's a steamy hole at the top.

[1995] So you fill it.

[1996] And it doesn't leak out the sides.

[1997] No. Oh, my gosh.

[1998] Mine's in the shape of roses.

[1999] Fuck me, really.

[2000] It's pretty cool.

[2001] You didn't want the perfect hemisphere?

[2002] No, I like the roses.

[2003] Oh, my gosh, so jaggedy and unpredictable.

[2004] I like that smooth.

[2005] Even though you hate circles.

[2006] No, I love circles.

[2007] Okay, but you hate round things, but you love circles.

[2008] I love circles.

[2009] But, okay, so they had those at Kimmel's?

[2010] Yes, and I was wishing somehow my Diet Coke was over that thing.

[2011] Yeah, you could have done.

[2012] I could have.

[2013] I didn't do that.

[2014] Okay.

[2015] Yeah.

[2016] You know, I don't feel like I deserve to be anywhere, so I try to be a very good guess while in there.

[2017] Oh, you do?

[2018] Yeah.

[2019] Yeah, I actually, I'm curious.

[2020] Not on this trip.

[2021] But it is my, that's my kind of go -to.

[2022] It's like, I'm not going to make any waves for anyone.

[2023] I don't want any be.

[2024] I wish I could be.

[2025] A fly on the wall.

[2026] Okay.

[2027] I would like to see you in that world.

[2028] Well, you have.

[2029] But yours was a heightened experience.

[2030] But I think the thing you would see is me at that dinner party in London.

[2031] Stanley's.

[2032] Yes, Stanley's.

[2033] But dialed down because it's a five -day trip.

[2034] Right.

[2035] But I'm so energized with the company.

[2036] Hmm.

[2037] And I can all of a sudden think of all my.

[2038] stories.

[2039] Jake said at one point mid -trip, he was a man of many stories.

[2040] Oh, wow.

[2041] Okay.

[2042] But that doesn't seem that's, but then you're also saying you don't try to stand out.

[2043] Right.

[2044] Like, that's entertainment.

[2045] Like, I'm providing a great hang.

[2046] I'm not going to let the cleaning staff clean my room.

[2047] Oh, I see.

[2048] You know, I'm on my best behavior.

[2049] Because I want to be invited back.

[2050] Yeah.

[2051] But I'm I'm very loud.

[2052] I lost my voice pretty quick in into that trip.

[2053] Yeah.

[2054] Yeah, I was yelling on the raft.

[2055] I had to yell a lot on that.

[2056] Oh, whitewater rafting trip.

[2057] Sure.

[2058] It's an Easter egg for a guest.

[2059] Yeah.

[2060] Okay, let's see.

[2061] Okay, you mentioned that Chili's salads are 3 ,500 calories.

[2062] Right.

[2063] That's not true.

[2064] No. I was exaggerating.

[2065] You were exaggerating.

[2066] I did look up for effect Right, but that is something we could probably get sued for They're not that much How much are they?

[2067] There's different ones, you know?

[2068] Get like the fried barbecue chicken salad with ranch and barbecue sauce.

[2069] Like there's a grilled chicken salad.

[2070] Well, not grill.

[2071] That's how I was eating.

[2072] That's not pussyfoot here.

[2073] Let's get right at it.

[2074] There's a range.

[2075] I'll say there's a range, but not.

[2076] Well, you hit me with the top range.

[2077] I mean, I see when that's 800.

[2078] Oh, that's not bad at all.

[2079] And 700.

[2080] That's not bad.

[2081] I've definitely seen them in the 12, 1 ,300 range.

[2082] There probably is also, but you can get, depends on how much dressing you're getting.

[2083] Yeah, I get extra dressing.

[2084] Maybe 1 ,4001.

[2085] Oh, they do.

[2086] Well, a cassidia explosion salad.

[2087] It is 1400.

[2088] 1430.

[2089] Wow.

[2090] Yeah, that's the most expensive one, though.

[2091] The most expensive for your health.

[2092] And there's a chili taco salad.

[2093] Oh, what do we?

[2094] That sounds great.

[2095] But that's $1 ,100.

[2096] Oh, that's not.

[2097] That's child's plate next to that $1 ,400, big boy.

[2098] Yeah.

[2099] Daddy Longlegs salad.

[2100] That's what they should name it.

[2101] But none of them are approaching.

[2102] 3 ,500 calories.

[2103] Or you could get a garden side salad for 80.

[2104] 80 calories great.

[2105] Yeah.

[2106] Good.

[2107] I'm glad you're counteracting.

[2108] You definitely could keep your caloric intake low if you put your mind to it over at Chili's.

[2109] Oh, no. Oh, did you find?

[2110] The Philly Cheesesteak, deep -fried pizza salad?

[2111] The chicken Caesar salad is 660, but I thought at first I thought it was just Caesar dressing.

[2112] 660 would be a lot.

[2113] That would be a lot.

[2114] Oh, chilies.

[2115] It's fun to think about because the scenario he described, it was identical to the one that Arnett and David Kegner and I were at in rural Illinois.

[2116] Yeah.

[2117] And you wonder how many chilies around the country have like six or seven working actors in them at.

[2118] Any given night.

[2119] That was a fact I wanted to check because I thought you guys went to Applebee's.

[2120] Could have been.

[2121] Yeah.

[2122] Okay.

[2123] Really could have been.

[2124] Okay.

[2125] Did Arnett say Applebee's when he was here?

[2126] I feel like the story's always been Applebee's and then it changed to Chili's on this one.

[2127] Oh, to suit Michael Shannon.

[2128] Which, by the way, Michael Shannon was there too.

[2129] Exactly.

[2130] The original Chili's, which actually we now think is an Applebee's upon closer examination.

[2131] And I would do donuts in the parking lot.

[2132] Exactly.

[2133] And I feel like that's always.

[2134] been how Applebee's, but I could also be wrong.

[2135] No, in fact, I think you're definitely right.

[2136] It's an apple, Applebee's.

[2137] I'm sorry that I'm confusing chilies and apples.

[2138] When I picture them in my mind, the menu and shit, it's like, oh, you do?

[2139] Yeah, you see a big difference between those two?

[2140] I actually really do.

[2141] Oh, my God, tell me. Because I like chilies.

[2142] Right.

[2143] Of course.

[2144] It was a fucking party when they came out.

[2145] Well, it's also, if I'm at home with my parents, not maybe not in the past like couple years, but up until very recently, we'd probably go to Chili's one of the nights.

[2146] Sure.

[2147] And you like it.

[2148] It's delicious.

[2149] I like, I do really like their casidias.

[2150] Well, they got a queso dip too, don't they?

[2151] Yeah, they have a great dip.

[2152] Yes, they do.

[2153] Salsa and cheese and something.

[2154] I don't remember.

[2155] Trio or something.

[2156] Listen, I want to be crystal clear.

[2157] I was never being critical of the food there.

[2158] It's delicious.

[2159] Yeah, it is.

[2160] I personally, my own failings as a person, cannot go in there and not eat seven to eight thousand calories.

[2161] Totally.

[2162] I'm just, there's no way I'm not getting the fucking mozzarella sticks, platter with the onion rings and shit.

[2163] Like, you're there.

[2164] Get the potato skins.

[2165] Get dick, you know.

[2166] Get dick deep in that.

[2167] Just go for it.

[2168] Oh, my God.

[2169] And they used to have really good chicken tacos, but I feel like those went off the menu at some point.

[2170] They've had all kinds of fun.

[2171] The baby back ribs, right?

[2172] I want my baby back.

[2173] That's outback.

[2174] That's chilies, baby back ribs.

[2175] Yeah, I mean, I could be wrong about Applebee's because I was wrong about them.

[2176] That's okay, no, I think you're right about it.

[2177] I think it wasn't Applebee's.

[2178] But anyway, for me, they're really different because Applebee's isn't for me. Okay, for me for you, dog.

[2179] But listen, how I know you are right is that I do remember the menu being unfamiliar to me. Like, oh, that's the barbecue chicken salad, but they're calling it the cowboy.

[2180] Oh, okay.

[2181] Right.

[2182] I do remember having that moment, because I do know the Chili's menu.

[2183] I would never look at a Chili's menu and be like, whoa.

[2184] Confused.

[2185] Yeah, we know it.

[2186] Yeah, we know it.

[2187] Awesome Blossom.

[2188] You know what?

[2189] Yeah, that's Outback.

[2190] That's Outback.

[2191] Yes.

[2192] They've got something like that.

[2193] They do have one, but they call it like the Blooming Onion maybe or something.

[2194] No, Blumen Onion.

[2195] Is Outback?

[2196] That might be Chili's.

[2197] I think the first one you said was Chili's.

[2198] I mean, it was Outback, the Awesome Blossom.

[2199] Oh, they got the fajitas, though.

[2200] That's the main thing that you smell when you walk in.

[2201] Absolutely.

[2202] And every 10 minutes you hear a sizzling plate past you.

[2203] Like there's auditory cues.

[2204] It's great.

[2205] Also, Chili's has really good chips.

[2206] Do you remember the chips that you dip in the salsa?

[2207] They're so thin.

[2208] Incredibly thin.

[2209] And so salty.

[2210] Yes, incredible.

[2211] Also, they have great ranch.

[2212] Oh.

[2213] Their ranch is really good.

[2214] Fry dipping.

[2215] Let's go there.

[2216] Let's fucking, let's get out of here and go ahead.

[2217] That's what I'm going to have for dinner.

[2218] We just solved it.

[2219] You're going to have to drive, I think.

[2220] I have not seen a chilis in the downtown L .A. area.

[2221] Do you know?

[2222] No, I don't.

[2223] It's the awesome blossom.

[2224] It is.

[2225] So is Blumen onion outback?

[2226] I apologize.

[2227] I apologize.

[2228] Yeah, Blumen onion is outback.

[2229] Okay.

[2230] Another place.

[2231] There's exactly the same.

[2232] Yeah, yeah.

[2233] And they're named the same thing, too.

[2234] Awesome blossom blooming onion.

[2235] I can't use at which we each set around.

[2236] Yes.

[2237] Oh, my God.

[2238] Awesome onion, bloom and blossom.

[2239] Oh, my God.

[2240] Okay.

[2241] So he said there was a little bar in Grafton, Ohio that was below his, like, scary living situation.

[2242] When he did that movie with Jessica Chastain and then she put the CD in the jukebox.

[2243] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[2244] Yeah.

[2245] And they wonder if it's still in there.

[2246] Yeah.

[2247] And I tried to find the bar.

[2248] I think it might be this called bull shooters.

[2249] Oh, great name for a small town bar.

[2250] Because look at that.

[2251] That's above.

[2252] That looks like where he lives.

[2253] Absolutely.

[2254] I think it's right.

[2255] There's definitely residents above the bar.

[2256] That look a bit scary.

[2257] I don't know that I'd want to be staying there.

[2258] Right.

[2259] I would love it right on top of the action at all times.

[2260] You would love it.

[2261] I might bore a little hole through the floor and put a cork in it.

[2262] And when I wanted to like hear better at the party, maybe peek around, pop the cork.

[2263] figuratively and literally and then yeah I would like that I lived above this really very weird and dusty and gross antique shop in deerborn oh did it feel haunted you know it was you know when you invited people over and they pulled up they weren't pumped to go inside oh no no no no no because you have to go through the antique shop to get up to your no you walked along the side of the antique shop and there was a stairwell behind it and then we were like above I love it.

[2264] And then we had the basement, though, and this was like the punk rock house.

[2265] So many bands had lived there.

[2266] My cousin started there with his band current.

[2267] When we moved in, the lead singer still there, then there was another band in there.

[2268] So the basement, it was a practice space.

[2269] The basement under the antique shop?

[2270] Under the antique shop?

[2271] Oh, my God.

[2272] So it went our basement, then an antique shop, and then our apartment.

[2273] Whoa.

[2274] Yeah.

[2275] And so there were obviously pretty specific rules about when you were allowed to be planking around down there.

[2276] Yeah, yeah.

[2277] Well, I feel like it would disrupt the antiques.

[2278] I've told you so many stories about this apartment, actually.

[2279] They were all vegan except for Aaron and I. They were all straight edge.

[2280] Right.

[2281] We drank and ate meat.

[2282] And we had a mouse.

[2283] And the mouse would always come out when you were watching TV.

[2284] And he would sit and watch you watch TV until if you looked at it, it would run away.

[2285] But didn't you say you thought that was a rat?

[2286] Or did you think it was a mouse?

[2287] No, it was a mouse.

[2288] And so everyone decided we'd.

[2289] You can't have mice.

[2290] Oh, well, yep.

[2291] So, but because they were vegan, they put a strip of wood up to the edge of a bucket.

[2292] And then in the bucket was a big glob of peanut butter.

[2293] Yes.

[2294] And by God, they caught this mouse.

[2295] Yeah.

[2296] They released it.

[2297] And then by God, that mouse was back for dinner.

[2298] Of course.

[2299] It knows where to go.

[2300] Oh, we had so much fun.

[2301] We would climb up on the roof and we would jump across the building tops.

[2302] We had, uh, we had CO2 BB guns.

[2303] and we'd shoot stop signs up and stuff from up there.

[2304] Oh, so fun.

[2305] Okay, the talking heads, he was right about RISD.

[2306] They met there.

[2307] Uh -huh.

[2308] I'm so embarrassed.

[2309] I thought they were from Chicago.

[2310] Yeah, but it was good he was right because he was super fan.

[2311] Yeah, I was super fan.

[2312] I was tempted to try to make more of a meal out of that than I did luckily.

[2313] Thank God.

[2314] I know.

[2315] Thank God.

[2316] Like, that's not the kind of story that's going to endear me to him.

[2317] Yeah, yeah.

[2318] Well, even though that's what connected him with Bill Murray.

[2319] Yeah, true, true.

[2320] But maybe once you messed up, he was like, he doesn't really know.

[2321] He doesn't, he's not worthy of anything.

[2322] Yes.

[2323] We regret coming here.

[2324] He just got up and left.

[2325] He just got that wrong.

[2326] And he was just saying over and over again as he walked on this through, fucking Chicago.

[2327] Fucking who's from Chicago.

[2328] He was our first guest to drink Ted Seeger.

[2329] Uh -huh.

[2330] And then, but then he started coughing.

[2331] I was worried that the product was defective.

[2332] It was really funny.

[2333] But Ted Ziegers was fucking flying off the shelves at Kimmel's.

[2334] I mean, just couldn't even get any of it.

[2335] Oh, yeah.

[2336] Oh, again, well, because I hadn't corrected it yet.

[2337] But Demon Copperhead came up again.

[2338] Uh -huh.

[2339] So again, you were right that it's based off David Copperfield.

[2340] Correct.

[2341] You already did that, though.

[2342] I have to do it again.

[2343] Oh, every time it comes up in perpetuity?

[2344] So this is what happened.

[2345] Okay.

[2346] when we when we talked about it with minka i didn't say anything you just thought it i just thought like oh that's wrong yeah you're and so i wrote down as a fact check that yeah this guy's wrong and then then we interviewed michael shan this is going to get everyone all upset we interviewed michael shannon and you said it again and you hadn't checked the fact yeah correct and so in this time i said it.

[2347] I said, I don't think so.

[2348] And it's after a fact check where you already apologize.

[2349] So yes, very confusing.

[2350] It's a mess.

[2351] Maybe you do.

[2352] Maybe you don't believe it.

[2353] But I do.

[2354] I'm wrong.

[2355] You're right.

[2356] It's based off David Copperfield.

[2357] We'll see.

[2358] Stay tuned for the next episode.

[2359] See if she does a 180 again.

[2360] Okay.

[2361] So you said your mom had five marriages.

[2362] Didn't she have four marriages?

[2363] Yes.

[2364] Okay.

[2365] Yeah, four marriages.

[2366] I said five?

[2367] Yeah.

[2368] Oh, boy.

[2369] That's a prime example of something that I don't need to exaggerate.

[2370] Exactly.

[2371] No, I know.

[2372] I thought that.

[2373] I was like, oh, he's made it extra, but like, why?

[2374] Yeah, why did I do that?

[2375] Well, that makes no sense.

[2376] You got wrapped up.

[2377] I don't need the time I was most embarrassed about exaggerating.

[2378] Ooh, what?

[2379] At UCLA, I always rode a motorcycle, so I didn't have to worry about parking.

[2380] It's free and no sweat.

[2381] Yeah.

[2382] Getting in the parking structure was a whole ordeal.

[2383] And then they had meters.

[2384] which were never open, but when you got one, it was like, I want to say 25 cents every five minutes or something, or every 10 minutes.

[2385] So to get a class's worth, you had to put in.

[2386] And so I think in real life, I put in 15 quarters.

[2387] Okay.

[2388] And then when I told Bree the story, I told her it was 17 quarters.

[2389] Oh my God, Dax.

[2390] Yes.

[2391] What?

[2392] And then like five minutes went by and I was like, why on earth did I exaggerate that and then I said to her it was 15 quarters I exaggerated to 17 and she goes yeah 15 still nuts yeah I'm like I know why did I think 17 was the number that would drive home how crazy this was it's like whatever it is you feel you have to add like one or two it's not even like you're adding like another 20 or something I know I'm like 10 % not good enough I think is the formula yeah because Your mom had four marriages.

[2393] That's 20 % then I was off.

[2394] Yeah, you had said that by the time you left, you were on your number four stepdad, but you were on your number three.

[2395] I meant four dad.

[2396] Well, first you said five marriages.

[2397] Then you said.

[2398] Oh, then I doubled down in a weird way.

[2399] Yeah.

[2400] And I felt it was really important to your mom that I correct that.

[2401] Yes.

[2402] to these companies that want to sue me for liable, I'm due it to myself.

[2403] I know.

[2404] I don't think that counts.

[2405] Doesn't that count?

[2406] Of course I'm reckless with you.

[2407] I'm very reckless with myself.

[2408] Yeah.

[2409] Yeah, the thing is you're reckless with them, their products, but that doesn't make them seem better.

[2410] But now I'm calling myself a liar.

[2411] And, you know, I got a point.

[2412] So I think previous me should sue currently.

[2413] Okay, cool.

[2414] Okay, is Loganitas?

[2415] He asked about Loganitas, the beer.

[2416] It's not a beer, though, right?

[2417] It's hot water, I think.

[2418] No, it's a beer.

[2419] Oh, it's a beer.

[2420] Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.

[2421] It was bought by Heineken.

[2422] The brewery was founded in 1993 in Lauganitas, California.

[2423] Moved a year later to nearby Petaluma, California.

[2424] And then there was a Marin location.

[2425] And then in 2012, they announced plans for a new Chicago -based brewery.

[2426] But I didn't see anything about New York.

[2427] And then, yeah, Heineken acquired 50 % of the, 50 % stake in the company.

[2428] As a result of the Diologanitas was no longer considered a craft brewery under the Brewers Association definition of craft.

[2429] Too big.

[2430] Too big.

[2431] They do make hop water, too.

[2432] Do they?

[2433] Because they drink it.

[2434] Oh.

[2435] Well, it's hot water.

[2436] It's like a non -alcoholic beverage.

[2437] You know the hop flavor in beer?

[2438] Yeah.

[2439] Yeah, it's that in like a seltre water.

[2440] It's neat.

[2441] I've had a couple good ones.

[2442] I like them.

[2443] Yeah.

[2444] It's like new.

[2445] You know, it's like a different taste.

[2446] It's good.

[2447] It's not like a...

[2448] It's not in any beer.

[2449] It's not a beer.

[2450] It just has the hops from beer.

[2451] It's like an IPA flavor a little bit.

[2452] Well, um, great.

[2453] Good to know.

[2454] Spaceland.

[2455] He brought up Spaceland.

[2456] A little venue and...

[2457] Silver Lake.

[2458] Yeah, it was, it existed between 95 and 2011.

[2459] They're saying it shut down in 2011?

[2460] What it says?

[2461] I think it's, they reopened.

[2462] I think there's a venue there.

[2463] There is, yeah.

[2464] I've seen my cousin there within the last five years, I think.

[2465] Oh, the satellite?

[2466] There's a new, there's a new name, the satellite.

[2467] Okay, they must still do shows.

[2468] Space fan is considered home for many bands in the so -called Silver Lake scene over the years.

[2469] including Silver Sun pickups and a bunch of others.

[2470] I don't feel like reading.

[2471] Too many to live.

[2472] Oh, the club features as a setting for the fictional band, Munchausen by proxy, lead singer Zoe Dishanel in the 2008 Jim Carrey movie Yes, Man. Uh -huh.

[2473] Yes, yes, yes.

[2474] Man, I recognized that.

[2475] Yes.

[2476] Wow.

[2477] Also had Ducati Hyper -Motard in that movie.

[2478] First time that bike is.

[2479] ever appeared in a movie oh wow big movie really big movie yeah yeah that's all that's the director of ant man um that directed yes man i think the jim carrie version not the there's also a Peyton reed yeah Peyton read is the director okay but there's also a yes man type movie with like Paul Rudd and Jason seagull no that's I love you man I love you man okay did he direct That, does he just do man movies?

[2480] Oh, I hope so.

[2481] Yes, he did Manwich commercials.

[2482] He did Man on the Moon.

[2483] Man from La Mancha, Man on the Moon.

[2484] John Hamburg did that one.

[2485] Oh, yeah.

[2486] I like John Hamburger.

[2487] He's a brilliant writer, truly.

[2488] That's all for Michael Shannon.

[2489] That's all for Michael Shannon.

[2490] Yeah, that was a fun episode.

[2491] I really liked him a lot.

[2492] Oh, good.

[2493] I had a hunch he would.

[2494] You like him a Ridge.

[2495] I do.

[2496] Anyway, well, I hope you have a great vacation.

[2497] Thank you.

[2498] I'll talk to you throughout the whole thing.

[2499] I'll be talking to you.

[2500] Yeah, I'll be seeing and I'll be talking to you.

[2501] I love you.

[2502] Love you.

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