209 - Big Sweater Energy

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] The True Crime, a comedy podcast that you've heard about from your friend.

[3] That's right.

[4] That's Karen Kilgarev.

[5] That's Georgia Hard Star.

[6] We sound exactly the same right now, but pretty soon you'll get it.

[7] Yeah, because it's actually not exactly the same in any way.

[8] We're incredibly different.

[9] So different.

[10] Vocally.

[11] Maybe we're from the same state.

[12] Sure.

[13] Maybe you have the same accent.

[14] Absolutely.

[15] Do we like vocal fry?

[16] Hell yes.

[17] Yes, we do.

[18] Are we pushing it more than ever before?

[19] Yes, it's a selling point.

[20] Yeah, girl.

[21] I just belched at Georgia while smiling and pretending I was about to say something.

[22] I was not buying it, which is why I screamed so loud.

[23] Please don't play that.

[24] Stephen, please mute the...

[25] Stephen, please...

[26] Actually, will you just put a beep like it's a weird...

[27] No, no, leave the burp in.

[28] Leave me screaming the microphone off, is what I'm saying.

[29] I bet you're asking to me. No, I would never censor your burbs.

[30] Are you kidding me?

[31] I live for them.

[32] You censor your burps, though.

[33] I do.

[34] Because there's so many.

[35] It almost seemed like aggressive at one point.

[36] You know what I mean?

[37] Like, she's doing that on purpose.

[38] Wouldn't really just have...

[39] She's just doing it for attention.

[40] Just my gut microbes are like overflowing with joy.

[41] How are you?

[42] I'm good.

[43] How are you?

[44] Good.

[45] Good.

[46] Yeah, you seem good.

[47] Thank you.

[48] Oh, really?

[49] Uh -huh.

[50] Oh.

[51] To me. In what way?

[52] Uh, calm, easygoing.

[53] Kind of like, what?

[54] Okay.

[55] I mean, I'm not.

[56] That's fine with me. A lot of that kind of stuff.

[57] Oh, cool.

[58] Yeah, it's nice.

[59] I like it.

[60] Interesting.

[61] I'm working on matching your energy.

[62] Okay.

[63] I think it's my big sweater energy.

[64] That, well, and I should mention that you did offer to give me that sweater.

[65] I said I might.

[66] It's Georgia has the best sweater on right now because it's a cable knit.

[67] It's a cardigan, black, but it has silver threads in it.

[68] And it's like loose.

[69] It's not my style at all.

[70] I saw it on a website and I specifically bought it for podcasting.

[71] I was like, that is a great podcast sweater.

[72] Cozy, kind of like, it's an outfit, but you don't have to commit.

[73] It feels like I'm wearing a, like I'm in a blanket at home.

[74] Yep.

[75] But I'm in a studio or I don't live.

[76] You're saying get your own sweater.

[77] No. I think it, yeah, if it works.

[78] Okay.

[79] Yeah, don't doubt it.

[80] All right.

[81] You get to be comfortable.

[82] Thank you.

[83] Thank you for that.

[84] No problem.

[85] Hold on.

[86] Yeah, get it on the record.

[87] Take that off.

[88] Do you not take it off?

[89] That one was, uh, that one was like...

[90] Low and slow?

[91] Yeah, that one was like, like, foul in like a little gutter roll.

[92] Uh -oh.

[93] Sorry.

[94] Did you hear that, see it?

[95] No. I slapped the table and all the audio went out for me in Georgia.

[96] Plug our things in.

[97] Yeah.

[98] Yeah, we're in.

[99] Let me talk about the exactly right network and what you can look forward to right now.

[100] This is a Georgia's podcast guy.

[101] Don't press fast forward because this is good shit, too.

[102] Yeah, there's upcoming other shows.

[103] Sometimes there's people that tweeted us and say, excuse me, I just listened to the whole, all every episode.

[104] Now, what do I do?

[105] Oh.

[106] Well, here's your answer.

[107] Here's what you do.

[108] Oh, right?

[109] Handpicked by us.

[110] So the fall line, incredible podcast.

[111] Their new season starts on the 12th, which is two days ago.

[112] Two days ago?

[113] And they're doing the Beaufort County Jane Doe, the whole season.

[114] and it's going to be really good.

[115] This podcast will kill you.

[116] Everyone's fucking favorite podcast about infectious diseases.

[117] Who doesn't want to hear about it?

[118] They're doing a coronavirus special.

[119] Yes, they are.

[120] Which is really exciting.

[121] It's topical.

[122] It's the fear on everyone's lips these days.

[123] And it's all in the news.

[124] And the ladies are going to break down the coronavirus for you.

[125] It's exciting.

[126] Murder Squad did a Jean -Benay special.

[127] Oh, also on Murder Squad on the 17th, Phoebe's.

[128] fucking judge.

[129] Peeby Judge comes through.

[130] And then the next, that's criminal.

[131] It's criminal.

[132] That's criminal.

[133] How much we love her.

[134] And then on the 24th fucking Josh Mancowicz.

[135] Sweet.

[136] Our personal friend.

[137] The greatest from Dateline.

[138] You know him.

[139] You love him from Dateline.

[140] That's right.

[141] Josh Mancoitz will be on murder squad.

[142] That's right.

[143] They've got quite a lineup coming.

[144] They do.

[145] The per cast has the, well, hi.

[146] Cat.

[147] The southern, uh, gentle lady.

[148] If you haven't seen it just look up, well, hi, cat.

[149] Yeah.

[150] you'll just have the best time.

[151] And then, oh my God, on the 19th, the per cast is having celebrity Jackson Galaxy, cat celebrity for all this cat people, Jackson Freaking Galaxy.

[152] Do you want to tell us to that, do you need a ride?

[153] And what's on that?

[154] The great James Fritz, one of the great L .A. stand -ups, everyone here knows, loves, and worships him.

[155] He does incredible work in the comedy field.

[156] And he is our guest And he's so hilarious It's such a fun chilled out He just he had just come home From spending the holidays With his family Is he a Chicago dude?

[157] No he is I believe Kentucky And he had a dark time But then we're all in the car together It's really real and funny And as sad as it is great And he's just the funniest person I really love him Love it Yeah so that's what's going on On exactly right network That's right So tune in lots of of, and there's so much exciting stuff.

[158] We say this too.

[159] Actually, we had to work on a press release last night of the new shows that are about to come out.

[160] That's how real they are.

[161] They're super real and they're right on the verge.

[162] So we will, of course, keep you updated, but there's some, we have two podcasts coming out in the next couple months and even more slated on the way.

[163] So just hang in there because we have all your new, favorite new podcasts that you haven't heard of yet coming.

[164] That's right.

[165] 2020 is the year of exactly right.

[166] That's true.

[167] And if I may, if we can do just a tad, just dip into the podcast recommendation area.

[168] Yeah.

[169] You barf through your fingers.

[170] Through my sweater and then I give you my sweater.

[171] Oh, here.

[172] Here's that sweater you wanted.

[173] I just wanted to say my friend Carrie O'Donnell is a guest host on a podcast called Sexy Unique Podcast.

[174] And it's hosted by a woman named Laura Marie Shone Halls.

[175] I believe that's how you pronounce her last name.

[176] Okay.

[177] And basically, she started it as a, I believe it was a Vanderpump Rules recap podcast.

[178] Wow.

[179] But now they have gone out.

[180] So she has lots of different co -hosts.

[181] I started listening because my friend Carrie O'Donnell is hilarious.

[182] And great.

[183] He's on Twitter.

[184] So they did like season two of the Real Housewives of New Jersey.

[185] They do Real Housewives.

[186] They do Vanderpump, obviously.

[187] They do.

[188] There's a show called Gallery Girls that used to be on that they have.

[189] done the entire season of.

[190] Right now I'm listening to them covering Low Hand Beach Club, I believe.

[191] I didn't know that was a thing.

[192] It was an MTV show.

[193] I think it was a year ago or so.

[194] And here's what's funny.

[195] I don't watch any of these shows.

[196] A reality TV makes me very uncomfortable and it makes me feel like I have to get up and start producing these people.

[197] Like it makes me feel like it's my job to make it work.

[198] And it stresses me out.

[199] We all talk to and agree that you are a responsible.

[200] Why do you have a clipboard if you're not going to produce?

[201] Truly.

[202] So I can't watch it, but I realize listening to these two hilarious people recap and do the voices of the Real Housewives of New Jersey or Lindsay Lohan.

[203] It's one of the funniest podcasts.

[204] Excuse me?

[205] It's one of the second funniest podcast.

[206] It's just so delightful.

[207] And I've really been doing that thing where it's like I'm, it feels like I'm, it feels like I'm, spending time with my friends, but it's actually me just listening to this.

[208] So it's called Sexy Unique Podcast.

[209] If you're into reality shows and comedy, this is definitely the podcast for you because the way they discuss everything, it's really hilarious, but then it gets very thoughtful.

[210] Like they flame people and they like definitely shit on behavior, but then they start talking about why people are doing what they're doing.

[211] I got to listen to it because I don't watch any of it.

[212] I mean, the last one I watched was like rich girls.

[213] Remember that?

[214] With fucking Hilfiger, Tommy Hilfiger's daughter.

[215] Remember that from like the early 2000?

[216] Was that, did that get filmed in L .A.?

[217] No, that was so New York.

[218] Okay.

[219] It was so good.

[220] Yeah, that sounds good.

[221] I need to listen to stuff like that without having to watch that shit.

[222] Because I love like Bachelor recaps on like BuzzFeed or whatever, but I don't want to watch it.

[223] No, I can't, I genuinely suffer when I watch reality TV.

[224] It embarrasses me. I get embarrassed in my living room.

[225] But to listen to my funny friends or my one funny friend that I know in real life and know my other funny friend that I don't Actually, I never met her.

[226] But they do these voices.

[227] Everything about it is just very enjoyable.

[228] So if you're looking for something that's very different than true crime, very different than any of that stuff, but you're into reality TV, I think sexy, unique podcast is for you.

[229] I love it.

[230] Speaking of reality TV, I watched the new Ted Bundy special.

[231] Oh, yes.

[232] Shockingly, I watched it with Vince, who's like not in.

[233] He can't do that normally?

[234] He can't.

[235] So, but he, I was like, can we just put this on?

[236] We just interviewed the amazing director and producer and creator, Trishwood.

[237] It's Ted Bundy falling for a killer.

[238] And it's just interviews with the women who are involved in the case.

[239] And so I really wanted to watch it from that angle.

[240] So I put one episode on.

[241] I was like, let's just watch this.

[242] And then later he was like, we had watched one episode only.

[243] And he was like, let's put that show on.

[244] And I was like, what show?

[245] And he was like, that Dahmer show.

[246] Like he doesn't even know what serial killer it is.

[247] But it was so good.

[248] and the daughter of his girlfriend, Liz, that lived with him.

[249] When she was a little girl, she is so incredible, as played by Renee Zellwigger, for sure.

[250] In the future film.

[251] In the future film, a punk rock Renee Zellwiger.

[252] And I just fucking loved her.

[253] They're so strong.

[254] And, you know, everyone in the whole show is just, they're incredible women.

[255] Well, and it's such a cool thing.

[256] You know, we had a long, long conversation with Trish, but it all got edited down to a very short thing but maybe we'll make that available but um it was just such a fascinating thing to actually discuss with the you know creator director about looking at it feels like this is the trajectory true crime the culture of true crime interest is now taking because the majority of the audience is women and the interest has to do with being kind of being a woman and the idea that we're now taking these things and instead of the strange attention that we're paying to the the perpetrators of the crime instead we can't identify with at all in any way which is part of the fascination is what type of monster is that I want to be able to recognize that totally whatever and but instead to look at these women who the the ones who did survive what they go through what that's like and the strength that they seem that they're they have from somewhere to to not only continue to live but thrive and help others.

[257] That's right.

[258] I mean, it's just that that's the best story that can be told.

[259] Absolutely.

[260] So it's so cool that it's being told around this such a dark, horrible kind of subject matter.

[261] Yeah, 100%.

[262] She really, Trishwood really pulled it out there, you know, really got a story going that hasn't been, should have been.

[263] But also I think people were very respectfully keeping their distance, you know, and it's like it had to be their decision.

[264] Totally.

[265] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[266] Absolutely.

[267] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash?

[268] Exactly.

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[280] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[281] important note that promo code is all lowercase.

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[283] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[284] Goodbye.

[285] Okay.

[286] Tell me a story.

[287] I'm going to tell you a story.

[288] Okay.

[289] I'm going to tell you about the mysterious death of Davina Buff Jones.

[290] Okay.

[291] I got information from articles.

[292] From Forbes, there's an article by Stacey Dietrich.

[293] Stacey Dietrich.

[294] A Charlotte Magazine article by Adam Rue and, of course, our friend read it, and then also our rose over at Generation Y podcast.

[295] Yeah.

[296] Let me first start by telling you about a little place called Bald Head Island.

[297] Is my dad there?

[298] I told you I didn't want to talk about him anymore.

[299] He's there with my husband, and they're having a grand old time.

[300] And a lot of people we know, actually.

[301] It's pretty hot.

[302] It's a hot island.

[303] It's a pretty hot island.

[304] It's kind of attractive.

[305] I notice that island the moment I walked in that bar.

[306] Baldhead Island is on the southern tip.

[307] of North Carolina's Cape Fear Coast, which means nothing to you and I from Southern California, but I think a lot of people, it means something to them.

[308] Probably their grandparents went there.

[309] Maybe they saw the movie with Robert De Niro.

[310] Or maybe they saw the movie, the fucking Tour to Force 1989 movie, Weekend of Burnies, which was filmed there.

[311] Are you serious?

[312] I swear to God.

[313] Oh, I bet you that's like a, that's a deep cut like film nerd piece of information where it's like, you know where Weekend of Bernies was filmed, Cape Fear.

[314] That's right.

[315] That's amazing.

[316] So, yeah, it was filmed there.

[317] And in the movie, as you know, they go to this island and there's, like, rich people on one per -it.

[318] It's like, that's the theme of the movie.

[319] Okay.

[320] And it's totally accurate.

[321] I'm sorry.

[322] Weekend of Burdies was filmed on Baldhead Island or Cape Fear?

[323] Baldhead Island.

[324] Oh, got it.

[325] So the place we're talking about.

[326] Got it.

[327] So it's a place for one percenters, million -dollar plantain -style beachfront homes, like fucking plantation?

[328] What did I say?

[329] Plantation?

[330] I wrote plantation.

[331] It's not plantain style.

[332] That would be gross.

[333] It's a delicious little banana that's been fried up, a little sour cream.

[334] Truly love them.

[335] A little crem fresh on there.

[336] The more problematic plantation -style mansion.

[337] That's right.

[338] Got you.

[339] You know, in that style of fucking rich people.

[340] Sure.

[341] The island, it's only accessible by a 20 -minute ferry ride.

[342] It's that kind of place.

[343] And according to the website, it's 12 ,000 acres total.

[344] And 10 ,000 of those acres are just beach, marsh, and forest preserves.

[345] So it's not built up.

[346] People love the nature and, you know, there's things that money can buy.

[347] And you're free to be baldheaded if you want to.

[348] That's right.

[349] It must be nice.

[350] They almost are insisting.

[351] Don't wear that hat.

[352] Yeah.

[353] We celebrate you here.

[354] Show it to the world.

[355] The islands has a small year -round population, but then, of course, there's tons of vacationers who have their vacation homes there, and they love the island has these beautiful sand dunes.

[356] It's got Spanish moss on trees.

[357] The air is all lovely in salt water.

[358] Spanish moss just kind of hung on.

[359] on a wire.

[360] That's right.

[361] On the ground.

[362] Yeah, just laying there.

[363] Spanish Moss doesn't grow on the ground, right?

[364] I mean.

[365] You can imagine.

[366] Okay.

[367] So since it's only 20 % developed, there's no cars allowed.

[368] So everyone fucking goes around in golf carts.

[369] I love it.

[370] Do you?

[371] I genuinely do.

[372] Okay.

[373] You can only go so fast in the golf cart.

[374] Right.

[375] But as fast as you can go is really fast for a golf cart.

[376] Sure.

[377] And so it makes it really fun.

[378] Right.

[379] Okay.

[380] That's cool.

[381] So I wasn't her I felt about it, but I can deal with that.

[382] If there's a car, it's only because it's like a government person's car, like a police officer's car.

[383] So in 1999, one such officer was a 33 -year -old woman named Davina Buff Jones.

[384] So Buff was her last name.

[385] Jones was her last married name.

[386] Got it.

[387] So that's her name.

[388] But she goes by Dee to her friends and family.

[389] Okay.

[390] Growing up in 1970s in Charlotte, North Carolina, she had been known as a tomboy because of her smoking, spitting, and cursing.

[391] Hey.

[392] Hi, hi, Dee.

[393] Welcome.

[394] She was a scrawny teenager with a big, you know, hair, and she had a toothy smile.

[395] She looked like anyone in the 70s and 80s growing up at that time who was named Deborah.

[396] She just looked like that with the short hair on top that was like feathered a little and the longer hair in the back.

[397] That was curly.

[398] Totally.

[399] Just like, you know, pretty standard stuff.

[400] She had worked at her parents' steakhouse with her sisters in Charlotte.

[401] Her parents described her as talkative and outgoing at times, but other times, hostile and withdrawn.

[402] So she kind of had a dual personality.

[403] She's a classic overshadowed middle child.

[404] That's the worst position to be in.

[405] I know.

[406] I'm sorry.

[407] In the birth order.

[408] Oh, truly.

[409] And I, yeah, I have all the qualifications of a middle child, but I'm the youngest.

[410] Right.

[411] But I have middle child tendencies.

[412] Oh, do you?

[413] Yeah, because I got plenty of attention, but I was still like, hello, my baby.

[414] Like, I just couldn't get enough.

[415] Um, by Dee's 30th birthday, she's been married and divorce twice.

[416] In 1994, she's charged with simple assault for, are you ready for spitting on the mother of her then husband's child during an argument?

[417] Look, that's a tough situation.

[418] Sure.

[419] No spitting allowed.

[420] This is just like pool rules always.

[421] No bottles, no cutoffs, no running, no spitting.

[422] I think that's a great rule.

[423] And you could throw no gum in there if you're one of those kind of people.

[424] Yeah, and like maybe take a shower before you get in the pool and if you have diarrhea.

[425] don't go in the pool.

[426] Stay out of the pool with diarrhea.

[427] That's right.

[428] These are, this pool rules apply to all of life.

[429] That's right.

[430] Yeah.

[431] So in January of 1999, back on Baldhead Island, the 33 -year -old graduates from the police academy and starts working for the Baldhead PD where crime is like non -existent.

[432] It doesn't happen.

[433] She's 4 .11 and 90 pounds.

[434] Oh, no. So she's a teeny tiny little thing.

[435] Okay.

[436] Davina is a little spitfire.

[437] She doesn't have a golf cart.

[438] She has one of the.

[439] those little kids get the cars that kids get for Christmas.

[440] Yeah.

[441] She has two Australian shepherds named Lord Adam and precious queen.

[442] Oh, so they have papers.

[443] These are breed dogs.

[444] Probably.

[445] Wow.

[446] So she has to sit on a phone book in her car to make everything work.

[447] Can you imagine trying to like have authority and then you're like, I'm out of here and then you jump on a phone book.

[448] That's got to be hard.

[449] That's where the spitting comes in.

[450] Yeah.

[451] Like you're got to be pretty tough to be taken seriously at 4 -11, I feel like.

[452] True, especially as a cop.

[453] Very much so.

[454] She gets assigned to work with Keith Cain.

[455] He's a former truck driver who had been on the force less than a year.

[456] He's seven feet tall.

[457] They're the perfect combination.

[458] But, you know, like many first year cops, she is a rule follower.

[459] She doesn't believe in bending the rules for anyone and for the rich people who could name drop on the island and who were contributors to political bullshit.

[460] Yeah.

[461] Of course, they didn't like that.

[462] She'd be writing them a citation.

[463] And I'd be like, do you know who I am?

[464] And she'd be like, I don't give a shit and give them a citation anyways.

[465] Okay.

[466] Just imagine.

[467] Yeah.

[468] Baldhead Island for the one percenters.

[469] Every goddamn asshole on that island is, do you know who I am?

[470] Right.

[471] And none of them stop at a fucking stop sign.

[472] You know that in their golf cart.

[473] No, they slide on through.

[474] They're always three gin and tonics in.

[475] Oh, my God.

[476] They're living their life.

[477] Oxycontin here, oxycontin there.

[478] Sure.

[479] They're not ones to be corrected or disciplined.

[480] in any way.

[481] That's a nightmare.

[482] Yeah.

[483] So she refuses to to tear up citation and bend and that kind of thing.

[484] And so locals on the island start complaining about her.

[485] She's kind of hassled a lot, it seems like, in the short time she's a cop there.

[486] By fall of 1999, Davina is unhappy with the whole situation and she starts sending out her resume to police departments across North Carolina, hoping to find a new job, which has to suck.

[487] Yeah.

[488] On the night of October 22nd, 1999.

[489] DeVina's doing a routine patrol with her partner Keith.

[490] They return to the station.

[491] And as Keith explains, Dee unexpectedly is like, I'm going to go out on patrol.

[492] And he's like, why don't you just wait for me?

[493] And she's like, no, no, I want to.

[494] I'm just going to go.

[495] So she heads out.

[496] It's possible that she just wanted to be alone so she could make a phone call, which she does at about 11 .19 p .m. at a pay phone at the marina.

[497] The call is to her ex -boyfriend who had just broken up with her that week.

[498] So she probably wanted to go out, call him be alone.

[499] She showed up at his place drunk a couple nights before, which was totally out of character for her.

[500] She apologizes to him on the phone and tells him she wants to stay friends.

[501] He wants to stay friends too.

[502] It seems pretty like an amicable split.

[503] The call us a couple of minutes and she says she'll talk to him later.

[504] And then she goes back out on the road patrolling.

[505] She heads towards the island's lighthouse known is old baldy.

[506] Sure.

[507] Yeah.

[508] That's a theme.

[509] It's just decorative.

[510] It doesn't actually fucking work.

[511] Oh.

[512] At 1148, so she radios in a dispatch says through the, what is it called?

[513] Radio.

[514] She says that she's out with three people.

[515] Basically, she says, show me out with three.

[516] Please stand by.

[517] So it's basically, I've come upon three people standby.

[518] Maybe she's still in her car, like about to, you know, get out of her car.

[519] maybe she's on foot and like comes across three people, but that's what she calls in.

[520] Okay.

[521] And then she leaves her mic open, so it's, she doesn't have to press on it anymore.

[522] And then there's another transmission over her open mic where she calmly but firmly says, and there's, you can hear this online.

[523] There ain't no reason to have a gun here on Bald Head Island, okay?

[524] You want to put down the gun?

[525] Come on.

[526] Do us a favor and put down.

[527] And then there's a high pitched squeal.

[528] It's like feedback, you know, when we get too close.

[529] close on the mics and it fucking does that awful feedback.

[530] You hear that.

[531] The signal breaks up and that's it.

[532] That's all you hear.

[533] Except Generation Y, when they played it, they kept playing it and you can hear a voice that says, oh, Lord, oh, my God, oh, my, like you can hear a woman's, it's probably her saying that.

[534] Oh.

[535] And I hadn't heard it anywhere else.

[536] And there's not a lot of articles about this or videos.

[537] So the fact that they found that is pretty interesting.

[538] That's very cool.

[539] Yeah.

[540] But, you know, you don't hear any other voices.

[541] you don't hear anyone yelling at her.

[542] It's just her voice saying that.

[543] Okay.

[544] All right?

[545] Yeah.

[546] Okay.

[547] So after hearing her radio transmission, her partner Keith runs out to try to track her down.

[548] She hadn't said where she was.

[549] And he's driving around for about 15 minutes, and then he comes upon her white pickup truck at the old Baldy Lighthouse.

[550] The truck is sitting at the end of an alley.

[551] It's backed into a dead end, about 20 yards from where the street ended and the sand dunes and trees started.

[552] The truck's lights are on, and the end.

[553] engine is running.

[554] Ooh.

[555] And her flashlight is on the seat, which he said she always took with her when she got out of the car at night.

[556] So next to her truck, Keith finds Dee's body laying face down near the base of the lighthouse by a white picket fence.

[557] Oh, no. I know.

[558] She has a single gunshot wound to the back of her head.

[559] And her 40 caliber glock duty pistol is near her right hand.

[560] Oh, wow.

[561] Yeah.

[562] So Keith checks for pulse.

[563] He doesn't find one.

[564] He calls in the rescue unit.

[565] And then he moves, he takes her gun, he picks it up and puts it back in her truck, like on the ground of her truck, which seems weird, right?

[566] Yeah, I can see my logic of that would be, I don't know who's around here and I don't want anyone to pick up her gun.

[567] That's exactly what he said was the reason.

[568] Okay.

[569] But it also disturbed a crime scene.

[570] Yes.

[571] But I'm sure he's panicking at this point.

[572] His partner is on the ground.

[573] He doesn't know what's going on.

[574] And I bet you there are very few murders on ball.

[575] Head Island.

[576] Exactly.

[577] If even...

[578] And of a police officer is just like...

[579] Yeah, this is unlike anything they deal with on a daily basis.

[580] Right.

[581] So, okay, here's fucking crazy.

[582] The only available backup arrives.

[583] It's volunteer fire chief, Kent Brown, and two EMS workers.

[584] One of those EMS workers had had a sexual harassment complaint filed against him recently, I think, the week before, by Davina Buff Jones.

[585] So he's one of the people who show up on the fucking scene.

[586] The men lift her body onto a gurney and transport it to the ferry dock, which I totally don't understand because she has no pulse.

[587] She's dead.

[588] You should leave the crime scene as it is.

[589] But they take her to the ferry, I think thinking to take her across to the mainland.

[590] A hospital.

[591] Yeah, exactly.

[592] But they leave her body there uncovered and totally exposed to the elements for the fairy.

[593] Yeah.

[594] So there's just nobody has any sense of.

[595] of how crime scenes are processed or anything.

[596] Wait, it gets worse.

[597] Okay.

[598] Meanwhile, at the scene, there's a bloody palm print on the back of DeVina's truck.

[599] There's drag marks.

[600] There's blood spatter evidence.

[601] But none of this is preserved because there's a wedding of a prominent Bald Island family scheduled to start in just a few hours.

[602] And so at the chapel next to the lighthouse.

[603] So the volunteer fire chief thinks the prominent family shouldn't have to look at this crime scene, so he orders the whole crime scene to be hosed down with a fire hose.

[604] This happens a lot in these stories where you think, and it's easy for us, 20 -20, hindsight, except.

[605] It's 2020, and we have 20 -20.

[606] It's 2020.

[607] I'm Barbara Walters.

[608] This is 2020.

[609] But how this is going to hold up in three years, no one gives a shit about that.

[610] Right.

[611] Like, I bet you if you ask the family, they would have been like, we would never want a crime scene to hose down.

[612] Totally.

[613] Just because people, you know, like, the logic behind that is so strangely self -serving.

[614] Yeah.

[615] And just, it's a bad move.

[616] Well, it's also suspicious as fuck.

[617] It's so suspicious.

[618] It adds so much to.

[619] Totally.

[620] Exactly.

[621] To be like, we can't trust anybody that's running stuff on this island.

[622] Right.

[623] Police chief Karen Grasty, she orders the scene contained until the State Bureau of Investigation could arrive.

[624] And she's reportedly told twice to go home and shut up.

[625] quote.

[626] By who?

[627] The fire chief?

[628] I guess so.

[629] Ooh.

[630] When the medical examiner finally conducts her autopsy later that morning after she hasn't been, you know, properly, her body hasn't been properly stored to preserve evidence.

[631] He writes a four -page report that's incomplete, inconsistent, and factually incorrect in some places.

[632] For example, the head wound diagram, he draws a rough circle behind and slightly below her right ear, even though the wound is, and this isn't disputed, the wound is actually the very center of the back of her head.

[633] I mean.

[634] Yeah.

[635] So the Emmy later blames his errors on a lack of sleep and a rush to move quickly to provide information to investigators.

[636] Like they were like, we need almost like they need to wrap this up because we don't want the residents of Baldhead Island to be freaked out that there's a murder on loose, you know?

[637] I mean, there's a real issue, but this it's a real issue with rich people.

[638] They're a real problem.

[639] Yeah.

[640] country.

[641] Oh my God.

[642] Seriously.

[643] But also that doesn't really hold up again.

[644] Say if this was IBM and this was the way you were doing your job.

[645] So you're hurrying up to give incorrect information.

[646] Right.

[647] Like you're hurrying up to get this information in that won't help anything.

[648] Right.

[649] Because you're actually screwing the case up more.

[650] Or it's almost like you know what they want the end result to be, which is whatever ruling is.

[651] And so you're hurrying through it because you don't, you're not actually looking at any evidence.

[652] you're getting to the conclusion that they want you to.

[653] Yeah.

[654] It's all so, I mean, they're all drawing suspicion down on themselves.

[655] 100%.

[656] The death was at the time immediately determined to be a homicide, but two weeks later, Brunswick District Attorney Rex Gore determines the cause of death to be suicide.

[657] Oh, no. So two theories about DeVina's death emerged, homicide or suicide.

[658] Okay.

[659] So I'm going to give you the case for homicide.

[660] There were allegations of large drug transactions happening on the island.

[661] There were like these inlets and hidden creeks that traffickers used to make drops of weed and coke.

[662] Almost it sounds like, remember in bloodline when they would be going through the little, it's like that kind of thing.

[663] Like a swamp kind of.

[664] Yeah, maybe.

[665] Ten years earlier in August of 1988, a vacationer, a fucking jogging down the old beach or whatever, finds a soggy pillowcase near the water and in, In it is eight kilos of Coke, which is worth about three million on the street.

[666] So they dragged that pillowcase up onto their own porch.

[667] So they kept running and minded their own fucking business and don't get involved.

[668] You know what I mean?

[669] I see no pillowcase.

[670] I feel like what would you do?

[671] I would not touch it and I would anonymously call the police.

[672] Let's see.

[673] I would look in there.

[674] I would see it was Coke.

[675] And then I would duck and run because that's the only thing that's going to have.

[676] happen after you discover three million dollars or the co -cus, someone's going to come for it.

[677] Right.

[678] So you don't want any part of that.

[679] You don't.

[680] Even though you think, I could make some money off this.

[681] No, you can't.

[682] I could have a great weekend.

[683] No, none of those things are going to happen.

[684] This isn't weekend at Bernies, everyone.

[685] No. Stop being immature.

[686] Your boss is dead.

[687] Stop it.

[688] Why do we have to keep telling you these things?

[689] The week Davina died, she had told her dad that she wanted to look into the drug activity on the island.

[690] Like, she, you know, she wanted to be a cop.

[691] wanted to do it well.

[692] So she was like, I'm going to look into this.

[693] She told him she arranged a meeting with the sheriff's investigator who handled narcotics cases.

[694] Like she was into it.

[695] She wanted to go undercover to help track down drug runners and distributors.

[696] And she also told her ex -boyfriend a few months before she died that, quote, she got information that they were making big drug deals down by the lighthouse, not quarterbags.

[697] He said kilos, big suitcases of money were being transferred.

[698] Okay.

[699] Yeah.

[700] But I mean, you can't.

[701] You can't, you know, it's noble intentions.

[702] Yes.

[703] You cannot do it by yourself.

[704] Yeah.

[705] I mean, you just can't.

[706] And that's like, you know.

[707] Well, it doesn't sound like she was.

[708] It sounds like she was trying to get involved in it, but who knows, it could go all the way to.

[709] Well, and also, but she went by herself.

[710] So she didn't even include her partner.

[711] Right.

[712] She didn't have backup or anyone covering her.

[713] But she could have just been doing simple patrolling, you know.

[714] True, true.

[715] It might, she might not have expected to come upon anything.

[716] I'm just saying, just watch Beverly Hills.

[717] cop because that's then you watch up a renegade that's true who who gets into the middle of drug dealing it's it ends bad you need your friend judge reinholds to work in the beverly house cop cop department everyone needs a judge reinhold we always said that we always do you guys won't listen to us just check your exhaust pipe for a banana that's all i'm saying oh that scared me so much as a kid was like anyone can put a banana in a exhaust pipe sure okay it also came out that at 6 a m the morning after Davina's death, three men had been discovered trying to sneak off the island via the ferry.

[718] They had been briefly questioned and release and then when Chief Grasty, she attempts to re -interview them later.

[719] She's given a stern warning to, quote, just let it lie.

[720] She's told the men are, quote, good Christians and not considered suspects.

[721] They're good Christian drug dealers who are sneaking off an island at 6am.

[722] Because they killed somebody.

[723] Right.

[724] Jesus.

[725] Allegedly.

[726] Allegedly.

[727] Doing her own investigation, Grasty finds that the men all have criminal records over 48 pages long.

[728] So they're not who you think they are.

[729] And you should have fucking looked into them either way.

[730] Grasty believes that Davina interrupted a drug transaction and was killed as a result.

[731] So it's found that the bullet that killed Davina came from her own gun.

[732] There are no identifiable prints on the weapon at all.

[733] Of course not because it got touched and picked up.

[734] Right.

[735] Yeah.

[736] Davina was wearing fingerless gloves at the time.

[737] And they do find some particles of gunshot residue on the back of her right glove, but it could have come from when she's at a shooting range or whatever.

[738] It didn't say it was like recent.

[739] From that moment.

[740] Exactly.

[741] So there are theories about how DeVina could have fired her.

[742] Oh, God, this is so fucking crazy.

[743] So there are theories about how she could have fired her gun into the back of her head of the center.

[744] And you should have seen Vince and I sitting there on the couch.

[745] And I'm like, do you think you could shoot yourself in the back of the head?

[746] No way.

[747] And it was just this weird conversation that I would.

[748] never expect to have with my husband.

[749] But there's, yeah, he was like, there's no way you could do that.

[750] And also just there's no reason to do it.

[751] If you're, well, I can tell you, I'll tell you what there are.

[752] What the reasons are?

[753] Yeah.

[754] Okay.

[755] So basically, let me just finish this.

[756] The trajectory of the bullet is up and to the left from the center of her head, which means that she did fire the gun.

[757] She wasn't holding it upside down.

[758] So the theory is that she was, basically, you hold a gun in front of you, facing you, and you put both of your hands over your head and point it to the back of your head with your hands with the gun upside down, right?

[759] That's their theory and that's how you could have possibly shot yourself in the back of the head.

[760] But then the problem is that the shell casing, what should have gone to the left and it said it went to the right.

[761] So it just doesn't make any, and she, you know, it doesn't make any sense.

[762] Also, just trying to move your arms like that.

[763] I don't, I don't know.

[764] Plus she was 4 .11, so we got to assume she had a really small hands.

[765] Right.

[766] So that's a big old fucking Glock, you know, being able to do that.

[767] Also, if you're trying to kill yourself, if that is what you're actually trying to do, you're not going to do it in a way that might just leave you very brain damaged.

[768] You're going to put the gun in your mouth.

[769] Right.

[770] But that's, okay.

[771] Yes.

[772] So there's an argument to that.

[773] The case for suicide, which is why would she have staged her own suicide to look like a homicide?

[774] Oh.

[775] So it's families of police officers killed in the line of duty are entitled to death benefits and payouts.

[776] But police officers who take their own lives, are not eligible.

[777] But the thing is, she didn't have children, her parents, her sisters were all doing fine.

[778] They didn't need the money.

[779] It wasn't like, you know, some scam like that.

[780] Right.

[781] Those who believe the suicide theory point to the fact that between 1994 and 1998, DeVina had received over 170 outpatient treatments for, quote, adjustment disorder with mixed emotional fears and chronic depression.

[782] That sounds like a big number, but if you think of going to therapy every week between 1994 and 1998, it's not.

[783] Yeah, it's actually, you only, that's only a little over two years worth of therapy.

[784] Right.

[785] If you went every single week.

[786] Right.

[787] It's like, if that had happened in the past two months, sure, that's a lot.

[788] But it's really not a huge amount.

[789] Not over two years.

[790] Not over four years.

[791] Exactly.

[792] At all.

[793] But when she was in high school, Davina had swallowed a bunch of Tylenol and had to get her stomach pumped.

[794] So they, the people who think it's suicide said that she had, you know, suicidal tendencies in the past.

[795] Okay.

[796] I mean, maybe.

[797] Yeah, maybe.

[798] Maybe she was in high school and...

[799] It would be interesting if you forced people to be really honest with you, what you could pull out of people's paths that would justify something like an act of violence like that.

[800] I have them.

[801] Everybody does.

[802] Fucking high school sucks shit.

[803] It sucks shit.

[804] And people do stuff and, you know, if you don't have support and you don't have people around you, you're going to go to therapy a bunch of times.

[805] You're going to get, you know, especially depressing.

[806] I mean, like, depression's a fucking bitch.

[807] It's rough.

[808] So two days before her death, Devina had told her doctor that she experienced suicidal thoughts the previous week that involved wanting to walk out into the ocean until, quote, until she couldn't swim anymore, which is a pretty a passive way of saying that.

[809] It's that thing that I've had in depression where I don't care what happens to me. I almost want something bad to happen to me so I can take my mind off of this, but I don't really want something bad happening to me. Right.

[810] It almost feels like it's a coping mechanism to say, here.

[811] Here's what I think I could manage.

[812] Right.

[813] Here's how much I don't care anymore.

[814] Yeah.

[815] Her doctor referred her to a psychiatrist.

[816] She set up an appointment, but the doctor didn't believe the comment warranted hospitalization.

[817] In his opinion, it was more of a fleeting thought than then, like, actual suicidal ideation.

[818] But he made her promise that if she started seriously thinking about suicide, she would call him.

[819] And in his opinion, Davina was a low risk for suicide.

[820] Yeah.

[821] But it is, you know, it is interesting that two days before she said that.

[822] You know, you can't, I want to defend her and defend her and defend her, but that is a compelling point.

[823] Yeah.

[824] And it's, it's, you know, at this point, anything is possible.

[825] Yeah.

[826] But it also makes me think, if I had a job, um, where I was trying to do what I thought the job was and I was actually getting kind of attacked for it.

[827] And sexually harassed.

[828] Sexually harassed.

[829] And there was all these kind of problems.

[830] Part of that could have been just, it's the statement I always use is I don't have the bandwidth for it.

[831] But that could come out as I want to walk into the sea.

[832] can't swim anymore because what you're saying is I can't deal with this like help me because I can't deal that's a good point and you think about the fact that she's 33 when she becomes a police officer divorced twice like there's probably this exciting new beginning for her yeah and it's not fucking going well yeah it's going badly I would say if yeah you know if if that if she if she's trying to do this thing and then the culture of the island and the department is saying shut up sit down stop doing your job and then she's like this will be my noble fight.

[833] It's tough.

[834] That's a lot to deal with.

[835] And she's looking, I mean, the fact that she's looking for another job actively means there's like, she has some hope.

[836] Right.

[837] You know?

[838] Yeah, she wants to work somewhere else.

[839] When Davina's parents, Loy and Harriet, they're just these incredible people, they go to their daughter's house that day, the day she dies.

[840] And they find, so she had those two dogs, right?

[841] They find her back door propped open and there's like this makeshift DIY tunnel so that the dogs can go in and out as they want.

[842] And friends and family say they'd never seen that kind of set up before.

[843] So that led some people to think that she knows she's not coming back anytime soon.

[844] So she wants to let the dogs in and out.

[845] Okay.

[846] Right.

[847] But like, who sees their friend's house in the middle of the day when they go to work?

[848] Right.

[849] And whatever setup you might have there.

[850] True.

[851] Yeah.

[852] But on the flip side, they also find a to do list on the kitchen table with things that she had planned to do after her shift that day.

[853] Yeah.

[854] Right?

[855] Yeah.

[856] So because of this information, district attorney Rex Gore, he influences the medical examiner to rule Devena's death a suicide.

[857] Huh.

[858] Yeah.

[859] So some say that the campaign, some say that it's because the residents of Baldhead Island, they thought their property value would decline if there's like a murder on the fucking island.

[860] And it's just, you know, of course, yeah, they're voted in, they're going to get influenced by that.

[861] Absolutely.

[862] And also, if there is an issue with the drug trafficking, which they're like, no, I'm going to go out to my vacation house and snored up all cocaine that I can find.

[863] They don't want anything interfering with that either.

[864] Yeah.

[865] Yep.

[866] Totally.

[867] Later, there are local, state, and federal independent hearings.

[868] They include extensive testimony by experts.

[869] So everyone's trying to look into this and form their own opinion.

[870] But unfortunately, because the crime scene was so compromised, there's not a lot to go on except looking into DeVina's life.

[871] Yeah.

[872] And figuring it on their own.

[873] And then also looking into the gunshot wound and having their own.

[874] It's really an opinion.

[875] Can you do that yourself?

[876] Can you not?

[877] They had all these women of her size try to try to like, what's it called?

[878] Recreate that and they really weren't able to do it.

[879] So in November 2001, District Attorney Rex Gore, he closes the case calling it a suicide and refuses to reopen it.

[880] Wow.

[881] So after he closes the criminal investigation, the buff family files a civil action for the they wanted to determine the cause of death.

[882] They are horrified to see their, you know, daughter's name dragged through the mud and they want it ruled homicide and, you know, have justice.

[883] So none of DeVina's journals indicate that she had any suicidal thoughts or the type of planning that it would have been necessary to carry out such an elaborate suicide disguised as a murder.

[884] It's pretty complicated.

[885] Her family says that, quote, losing her was indescribable, but slandering her and death was a worse.

[886] I bet.

[887] In 2003, a North Carolina Industrial Commission hearing resulted in the finding that DeVina's death was likely a homicide, and they awarded her family $50 ,000 in death benefits for law enforcement officers.

[888] No, it's good.

[889] Yeah.

[890] That's what they, they didn't want the money, but in 2006, the U .S. Department of Justice awarded the buffs nearly $147 ,000 for its public safety officers benefit office.

[891] So, it's not, they're not ruling it different, but they're saying it probably was homicide.

[892] Yeah.

[893] They're like, in the meantime, you should get the benefits in case it wasn't that.

[894] And there's no hard evidence that it was suicide, so we can't say that it was.

[895] Right.

[896] In 2011, this dude, John David, he fucking gets Gore out of office in the race for the Brunswick County DA's office.

[897] John David criticizes Gore's handling of the case and wants it reopened.

[898] and he makes the case file available to a group of retired FBI agents.

[899] Oh, here we go.

[900] Which I want to fucking sit in that meeting, right?

[901] Hey, there's the bald head island I do want to visit.

[902] That's right.

[903] But the agents, they were like split.

[904] Really?

[905] Again, like not half and half, but again, some thought it was suicide, some thought I pointed to homicide, which just tells you how complicated the cases without any evidence to be used.

[906] Right.

[907] John David concludes that the file will remain open and any new elites will be pursued, so it's not closed anymore.

[908] And in 2007, Brunswick County Sheriff Ron Hewitt is indicted and found guilty of federal obstruction charges.

[909] He's arrested and investigated for several crimes, including embezzlement, sexual harassment, and showing epic crime scenes intoxicated.

[910] Uh -oh.

[911] Don't do that.

[912] It's not allowed, apparently.

[913] Apparently.

[914] And in 2013, Gore pleads guilty to allegations that he conspired with an assistant DA and fraudulent travel reimbursement schemes.

[915] And he gets 18 months probation.

[916] So the people who are ruling at suicide aren't, like, clean.

[917] Right.

[918] You know what I mean?

[919] Yes.

[920] Yeah.

[921] There have been at least eight separate reviews of DeVina's death in the nearly 20 years since she died.

[922] Wow.

[923] Loy and Harriet Buff hired private investigators throughout the years and they try to come up with new leads.

[924] And DeVina's sister Elaine Buff wrote a book about the case called Out with Three, The Murder and Betrayal of Bald Head Island Police Officer Davina Buff Jones.

[925] And the Bufs scattered Davina's ashes from the pier where she used to go fishing with her grandfather.

[926] I know.

[927] But there's no memorial marker for Officer Buff at the spot on the island where she died.

[928] And DeVina Buf Jones's death is officially classified as undetermined.

[929] And that is the mysterious death of Davina Buff Jones.

[930] Wow.

[931] Yeah.

[932] Wow.

[933] Isn't that crazy?

[934] Also, like, I mean, I want to get into my assumptions because it's like the - Do it, do it, do it.

[935] But when you start talking about like the people that were like, it's obviously suicide, I was just like, wait, what?

[936] Like, no, it is not.

[937] It's not obvious.

[938] And the idea that she would call in, like, I feel like if she was trying to stage anything, like, opening her own radio and involving people, like letting people over hear anything makes no sense.

[939] Right.

[940] It's like, yeah, it's too, it's too tricky.

[941] It's very risky.

[942] Like, I mean, but who knows?

[943] but the I feel like it's so difficult to argue with the quote unquote coincidence that she opens her radio says she's there with three people and then three guys are trying to sneak off the island 100 % that alone it moves it up into a different category yeah where yeah I mean those cases where the people in charge and the people who rule who like rule with the cases when they are so dead set on one answer yes it just drives me crazy It's infuriating.

[944] Well, and also just that over time, I think it's maybe a thing that people are only starting to realize now that, like, the truth will out.

[945] It always does.

[946] And so, I might not.

[947] I mean, there are definitely times where it doesn't.

[948] Sorry.

[949] No, you're right.

[950] I'm so negative.

[951] But, I mean, I think in the eventual, there's going to be a technology that, like, we can set some drone over there.

[952] It can recreate the scene.

[953] And it's impossible to blubble, you know, that thing.

[954] Well, you hope that the.

[955] evidence, like the actual evidence, which is like the wound and, you know, the, I think there were blood spout, there was blood spatter on both her hands.

[956] So why wasn't their gunpowder residue on both her hands?

[957] That kind of thing.

[958] And like those hard evidence point.

[959] And then like, yeah, it's just crazy.

[960] And also, how about we pull in the guy that decided to hose the whole scene down?

[961] Oh, my.

[962] God.

[963] What are any of those decision makers?

[964] When are they going to get pulled in the way her personal life has been pulled?

[965] hold in and judged and taken apart and, you know, every little thing you've ever done.

[966] I mean, I think it's very telling that, you know, she was confiding and saying things to her therapist, but not enough to put them in her journal.

[967] Right.

[968] So maybe it was the thing of like after.

[969] She just went through a breakup, you know?

[970] Right.

[971] And after a long conversation, it's like, oh, I just want to walk into the sea.

[972] I mean, that's like, it's so up to interpretation.

[973] Do you want to hear the audio?

[974] Oh, no. Of her?

[975] Yeah.

[976] No. Here, you can play it.

[977] No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. They can find it online.

[978] Okay.

[979] I mean, I believe you.

[980] And the Generation Y guys, but no. That's because she sounds so calm.

[981] That's the, like she sounds like a police officer doing her job and stopping people.

[982] Like, I feel like if she had been making the whole thing up, she would have sounded fake panicked.

[983] Yes.

[984] You know what I mean?

[985] There would have been a little, a layer of acting in it.

[986] And there's no acting.

[987] It's this, you know, trained person asking to someone to put the gun down and trying to casually have a conversation with them, not like screaming at them or anything.

[988] Right.

[989] So it just is, it's creepy.

[990] Yeah.

[991] Hand wine.

[992] It's February.

[993] Crack it.

[994] You did your time.

[995] I did my time.

[996] You served your time.

[997] Okay.

[998] This story, I actually saw this when, one of the pieces of this story broke as a news item but then recently one of our listeners her name's Elise Cheribio that's her name on Twitter also at Elise Teribio and she sent this and said this story is unbelievable and it's a survivor story so this is the survivor story of Tiffany Taylor and these New Jersey women who stopped a serial killer are you ready 100 % oh sorry there was I got a other information from all things interesting .com.

[999] Great, great site.

[1000] But the article that Elise linked me to was from a website called www .w .com.

[1001] And it was written by a writer named Christopher Magh.

[1002] But there was also contributing reporters, Julian Martin, Tom Nobile, Keldi Ortiz, and Svetlana Skolnikova.

[1003] So it's 2016.

[1004] We start 2016, 33 -year -old Tiffany Taylor, lives with her mom and her young.

[1005] daughter in Roselle, New Jersey, which is just south of Newark.

[1006] Okay.

[1007] Where the fuck is Newark?

[1008] I mean, it's by the Newark Airport.

[1009] It's by the airport.

[1010] Got it, got it, got it, got it.

[1011] Okay.

[1012] Also, she's originally from Jersey City.

[1013] Cute place.

[1014] I don't know about that.

[1015] It's actually cute.

[1016] For real?

[1017] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1018] Oh, okay.

[1019] That's cute.

[1020] I only ever hear, let's like, I've left over 80s comedy ideas of New Jersey where it's like New Jersey.

[1021] Everyone's, it was always shitting on New Jersey.

[1022] But then all the people I know that are from there.

[1023] are vigorously proud of being from New Jersey.

[1024] So enough shitting on New Jersey, guys.

[1025] I mean, apparently there's great stuff about it.

[1026] Sure.

[1027] They have that really big mall.

[1028] Good stuff.

[1029] There's bad stuff.

[1030] You know, like any place.

[1031] You know.

[1032] Okay.

[1033] So Tiffany, she was raised in the housing projects, the one called Salem Lafayette apartments.

[1034] She and her mom moved to Orlando briefly because Tiffany was a professional dancer.

[1035] and she went to a place called Valencia College down there to study psychology and music but after a few years there she gets pregnant unexpectedly so her and her mom basically move back to New Jersey they move home then okay so basically once she's back home Tiffany's eventually meets this guy so it's a guy that her mutual friends hooking up with and he's 20 years old his name's Khalil Wheeler Weaver not easy to say the two of them Tiffany and Cleo get along sometimes they hang out like she's played video games with them whatever but you know nothing big but Kalil starts obsessing over Tiffany he asks their mutual friend the one he's sleeping with if like how to get him hooked up with Tiffany um right Tiffany's not interested because he's already sleeping with her friend and he's really young he's a lot younger than her she's just always turning him down telling him to get away from her.

[1036] In spring of 2016, he starts just begging her openly to have sex with him.

[1037] Oh, my God.

[1038] And she always says no. He eventually starts offering to pay her.

[1039] Oh, my God.

[1040] And it's not until he offers her $200 to sleep with him that Tiffany's like, sure.

[1041] But she actually has no intention of sleeping with him.

[1042] Her plan is she's going to take that money and rob him basically and not sleep with him.

[1043] Because she was sick of being treated like a sex object.

[1044] That's actually a quote she ended up giving in one.

[1045] of the newspapers.

[1046] So around 8 o 'clock on April 10th, 2016, Tiffany goes to Khalil's parents' split -level home in Orange, New Jersey.

[1047] So he lives there with his mom and his stepdad.

[1048] He meets her at the front door.

[1049] He gives her $200 cash.

[1050] Then he walks her up to his bedroom.

[1051] She says he has the tiny bed of a boy.

[1052] Oh, my God.

[1053] A tiny little, what I imagine to be a twin bed.

[1054] Can you imagine?

[1055] Maybe shaped like a race car.

[1056] It's the tiny bed of a boy.

[1057] Maybe a bunk bed.

[1058] I mean, Just little.

[1059] Maybe it's like a slightly larger dog bed.

[1060] A cot or a dog bed?

[1061] Okay.

[1062] Once she's in his room, she pretends that she left the condoms that she brought out in the car.

[1063] She's like, oh, sorry, let me run out to the car and go get those.

[1064] She says she'll be right back.

[1065] Instead, puts that $200 in her pocket and drives away, and she never sees him again.

[1066] Later it is.

[1067] Right?

[1068] Okay.

[1069] So then soon after that experience, Tiffany's entire life has turned upside down.

[1070] Her mom is diagnosed with ovarian cancer.

[1071] The treatments, the medical bills start to pile up.

[1072] It leaves them penniless.

[1073] They get evicted from their apartment.

[1074] They have to live out of Tiffany's car.

[1075] Oh, God.

[1076] So when Tiffany finds out she's pregnant with her second child.

[1077] God, getting cancer shouldn't make you fucking live out of your car.

[1078] It's horrifying.

[1079] That's America today.

[1080] That's unacceptable.

[1081] It really is.

[1082] That's not how you, that's not human rights.

[1083] No. It's not fair.

[1084] No. It's not fair.

[1085] because you have to be rich to survive cancer these days totally totally it's insane guys let's uh let's let's fix the system fix the health care system good luck everybody okay so tiffany decides that she's going to take up sex work she needs to earn money for this family and for you know now it's going to be four people yeah and um it's who's the fourth person she already had a child oh i get it okay her mom and now she's pregnant again got it so she's like i have to make money Okay.

[1086] Then in November of 2016, she gets a side job from that, which is basically picking up crack for someone who pays her just to go pick it up.

[1087] And that person lives in room 32 of the Ritz Motel, which sounds classy, but actually is not.

[1088] It doesn't sound classy.

[1089] The Ritz, honey.

[1090] The Ritz Motel.

[1091] I felt for it.

[1092] Oh, I could have guessed.

[1093] The Ritz.

[1094] We're going to the Ritz for high tea.

[1095] No, that's the Ritz motel.

[1096] High tea is right.

[1097] Real high.

[1098] Crack level high.

[1099] It's on Route 1 in Elizabeth, New Jersey.

[1100] Oh, sure.

[1101] Which is where all the great motels are.

[1102] Okay, so around the same time.

[1103] Okay, so she's basically like, this person's like, if you go get my drugs, I'll pay you for it.

[1104] She's like basically just doing what she can to survive and to make sure her family survives.

[1105] Around the same time, she starts getting text messages from a stranger who's begging her to pay her for sex.

[1106] So this is what she's basically already doing.

[1107] It doesn't shock her.

[1108] It doesn't come as a surprise.

[1109] But she doesn't know who the person is.

[1110] So she just keeps declining.

[1111] They continue to contact her even after she gets a new phone.

[1112] He somehow finds her new number and hits her up again.

[1113] She says no until he offers more money.

[1114] And then she, on November 15th, 2016, she finally decides the price that he offers is going to be worth the risk of not knowing who this person is.

[1115] And again, her plan, she's going to go get that money and then and rob him.

[1116] That scares me. Okay.

[1117] So Tiffany decides to meet this John that night outside the Ritz.

[1118] Sure.

[1119] Around eight.

[1120] They're at the valet.

[1121] Out at the valet, she's like says goodbye to her boss.

[1122] Thanks so much.

[1123] And I picked up enough hours this week.

[1124] I'm going to grab some cucumber water on my way out.

[1125] And I might just put those on my eyes and lay in the chaise lounge in the waiting room.

[1126] Oh, sure.

[1127] The waiting room?

[1128] The waiting room at the Ritz.

[1129] It's this gorgeous.

[1130] Oh, you've never heard of the waiting room with the Ritz?

[1131] It's the classiest fucking place.

[1132] So it's 50 degrees outside, and when the guy shows up, he's dressed in a black hoodie, black gloves, and a black ski mask.

[1133] Wait, what?

[1134] Yep.

[1135] But Tiffany's like, oh, he must be cold.

[1136] No. Yes, she doesn't red flag it at all.

[1137] Is the ski mask, like, around his face or like a beanie?

[1138] I think it's sense it says ski mask instead of beanie or hat, that he's wearing a mask.

[1139] Okay, I have a problem.

[1140] Right.

[1141] It's not good.

[1142] Yeah.

[1143] But she's like, I need to get this money.

[1144] You know, she's in it.

[1145] She's in a bad place.

[1146] Okay.

[1147] So he gives her 80 bucks up front.

[1148] Then she borrows the phrase, Jay did this research for me. He keeps referring to the person she runs and gets crack for as her boss.

[1149] Jay.

[1150] I mean, that's very fair of him.

[1151] But it is technically her boss.

[1152] Yeah.

[1153] So she borrows her boss as Burgundy Lincoln sedan.

[1154] It's probably also how it's described in the newspapers or whatever but she borrows this burgundy lincoln sedan and they drive they basically leave the ritz motel okay they pull away and then as they go he asks her after a little while to pull over because he has to pee so she doesn't know what happens next because he either hit her over the back of the head with a blunt object or she had an iced tea that she had in between the two of them in a cup holder and she was like i was so out cold he could have drugged me wow and because when she woke up her head was pounding so she knew that was something either she was struck or drugged um but she wakes up she's in the back seat of the link and her hands are handcuffed behind her back her mouth and nose are wrapped with duct tape and he has her pinned by the throat and he's raping her oh my god so this causes her she like wakes up to this nightmare scene she bites her tongue so hard it starts to bleed.

[1155] Oh my God.

[1156] The blood, between the blood and the tears coming out of her eyes, it loosens up all the duct tape.

[1157] Wow.

[1158] So she starts screaming.

[1159] He takes off the ski mask and he says, do I look familiar?

[1160] Do you remember me?

[1161] You took my money.

[1162] And that's when she realizes it's Khalil, Wheeler, Weaver.

[1163] Oh my God.

[1164] She begs him not to kill her.

[1165] She explains, please don't kill me. I'm four months pregnant.

[1166] And he just simply states, I know.

[1167] And that's when she realizes, He's going to kill her.

[1168] Okay, now.

[1169] Now we're going to go.

[1170] We're going to change the story.

[1171] We're going to change the time frame.

[1172] Okay, you're going to leave me here.

[1173] Yeah.

[1174] Sorry, we're going to put a pause on that.

[1175] Okay.

[1176] Because we have to tell a different story now.

[1177] Okay, here we go.

[1178] So we're going to talk about Robin West.

[1179] She is a rebellious, adventurous young woman from Philadelphia.

[1180] Mostly she lives her mom in West Philly, but she also spends time with her dad, who is a Philadelphia school district police officer.

[1181] and assistant church pastor he lives in North Philly and she goes to church with her mom on Sundays she sings in the choir sometimes she even sings lead which damn girl she must be good because that's where all the good singers are but as she grows up her rebellious side takes over she doesn't she won't stick to curfew she argues with both parents a ton when she's 14 years old she gets sent to a place called Wordsworth Academy which is a treatment center for young people with behavioral and or mental health issues, but it's not as nice as it sounds.

[1182] And actually, the living conditions are terrible there.

[1183] There's allegations of counselors who beat and abuse and even rape the students that go there.

[1184] Oh my God.

[1185] So Robin goes there and she makes two great friends there, Tracy Johnson and Bernicia Patterson.

[1186] And they're like sisters, the three of them.

[1187] Yeah.

[1188] So when Robin gets out of she's still struggling with depression.

[1189] She still fights with her mom.

[1190] So when she turns 18, she moves out of the house and tries to make it on her own.

[1191] She starts stripping to earn a living.

[1192] Her friends and family keep track of her on Facebook, but she kind of is off trying to make it and do her thing.

[1193] So one day, August 2016, Robin and Bernicia decided to go to New Jersey together.

[1194] Remember, they're from Philly.

[1195] At first I was confused.

[1196] I'm like, what, this is New Jersey.

[1197] So they're from Philly.

[1198] They go to New Jersey.

[1199] They stay at the Garden State Motor Lodge in Union Township, which is about 15 miles outside of Manhattan.

[1200] It's the Ritz of Union Township.

[1201] It's the Ritz motel of Union Township.

[1202] That's right.

[1203] They've got a waiting room.

[1204] Putting on the Ritz.

[1205] It's like a dish with three old Ritz crackers in it.

[1206] And then you go to take one because you think they're complimentary.

[1207] It's like that's $11.

[1208] Oh, $11 for a Ritz.

[1209] They pulled a Ritz on you.

[1210] Okay, so essentially, They stay there for a few days.

[1211] They run out of cash.

[1212] They decide to turn tricks to get money.

[1213] Robin isn't experienced, and this isn't something she does.

[1214] She's just been dancing.

[1215] Bernicia shows are the ropes.

[1216] August 31st, 2016, around 11 o 'clock at night.

[1217] Robin and Bernicia, they walk on Newark's Nye Avenue.

[1218] And that goes through a really bad neighborhood where it's like abandoned lots, burn out buildings, rough stuff.

[1219] But that's where the sex workers go to get fine jobs.

[1220] John's.

[1221] So they're hanging out there.

[1222] A man in a silver sedan pulls up.

[1223] He starts talking to Robin.

[1224] So Bernicia, the genius, goes over and writes down the man's license plate number and her phone and saves it.

[1225] Smart.

[1226] So when Robin gets into the car to go have a date with this man, Bernicia tells the man, be careful with my sister because I love her.

[1227] So Robin is now in the car with this John.

[1228] He drives her to an abandoned house at 472 Lakeside Avenue in orange.

[1229] He spends an hour inside and he leaves at 127 a .m. 23 minutes later, a neighbor calls 911 to report this abandoned house on fire.

[1230] When firefighters show up and put out the flames, they find a body inside.

[1231] And the lead Arson Investigator and firefighter Matthew Pichero, who works for the Orange Fire Department, and he's been investigating arson for 17 years, describes what they found as the most destructive body I've ever come across.

[1232] So the next day, when Robin doesn't show up, Bernicia reports her missing.

[1233] She gives the police the license plate number of the man whose car she got into from the night before.

[1234] or they link it to a silver BMW.

[1235] Two weeks later on September 13th, 2016, investigators are able to use dental records to identify the body of Robin West, and it's just eight days after her 20th birthday.

[1236] That's so sad.

[1237] Okay.

[1238] Now we go to another story.

[1239] This is the story of Joanne.

[1240] Her nickname is Billy Joe Brown.

[1241] She's one of eight kids, two girls and six boys.

[1242] is she's born in Augusta, Maine.

[1243] When she's five years old, her family moved to New York, New Jersey.

[1244] She has bipolar and schizophrenia, but her friends and family describe her as warm and fun -loving.

[1245] When she gets older, which is very common with a lot of people with mental illness, she self -medicates with drugs.

[1246] And she begins working as an exotic dancer and a sex worker.

[1247] She uses the alias London.

[1248] So her family and friends are very concerned that.

[1249] she's gone into this line of work, they ask her to stop.

[1250] She tells them she's not giving it up and it's her livelihood and it's how she's making money.

[1251] But eventually she does end up going to a place for drug addiction.

[1252] She gets housing, counseling, drug treatment, but it's too hard for her to live that structured lifestyle.

[1253] So she keeps on doing her sex work and she skips her counseling appointments.

[1254] So on October 22nd, 2016, Billy Joe, who is now 33, and her friend Amina Nobles, they're hanging out near Popeyes on the south side of Newark.

[1255] And at 116 in the afternoon, a man shows up in a silver sedan.

[1256] And he starts talking to Joanne.

[1257] She agrees to take him as a client.

[1258] Normally, when she leaves with a client, she'll call him meet her friend of Mina and tell her where she's going and when she'll be back.

[1259] That's usually the setup they have.

[1260] But she had lent her friend a phone before she left so she asks this john if she can use his phone instead he says yes she calls amina at 1 30 from the car and basically gives her the information so god it's just so the thought of having to call your friend to tell them where you are every time yeah it's just you know you're at risk and you still have to do it anyway you have to do it yeah it's just so sad what a what a hard life to live yeah Okay.

[1261] So they drive to an abandoned house at 354 Highland Avenue in Orange, New Jersey.

[1262] And they go inside.

[1263] This John wraps Joanne Billy Joe Brown's head in duct tape.

[1264] He strangles her with a jacket and he leaves her on the second floor landing.

[1265] So at 309, Amina Nobles gets a call from the number that Joanne had called her from at 116.

[1266] And she basically.

[1267] Picks up the phone and says London, because that's the fake name she used.

[1268] The caller says nothing and then hangs up.

[1269] So Amina calls back three or four times, but he doesn't pick up the phone again.

[1270] Creepy.

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] So she goes to the Newark police and reports Joanne missing.

[1273] Now we're going back to Tiffany Taylor's attack.

[1274] It's on November 15th, 2016.

[1275] She's, so they're in the backseat of her boss's Lincoln Sedan.

[1276] So in the middle of this attack, she's screaming.

[1277] crying then she thinks quickly and she realizes she tells him that the handcuffs are way too tight and asks him to loosen them and he does and when he does that she realizes that she can get the upper hand here so she will later say quote once he agreed to that in my head I said I got him he's weak oh wow yeah so she keeps talking to him she reminds him that he texted her and their entire conversation is on her phone, which is back at the motel.

[1278] Oh, shit.

[1279] And that if the police find it, he's screwed.

[1280] And this actually plants like a real seed in his brain.

[1281] He starts to get nervous.

[1282] And he was like, we have to go back and get your phone.

[1283] And he climbs into the driver's seat and heads back to the motel.

[1284] Tiffany's still in the back seat and she's double -jointed.

[1285] No. So she manages to slip a hand out of her handcuffs.

[1286] Dude.

[1287] Yes.

[1288] Okay.

[1289] Okay.

[1290] So then she makes this plan in her head.

[1291] She's like, if he drives past the motel, I'm going to sit up.

[1292] I'm going to put these handcuffs around his neck and strangle him.

[1293] And then even if we crash, at least I'll kill him.

[1294] 100 % is what she's thinking in her head.

[1295] Then she's like, but if he stops at the motel, then I'll run.

[1296] So he stops.

[1297] So she puts her hand back into the handcuffs.

[1298] And he lets her out of the car.

[1299] He puts a jacket over her shoulders to hide the handcuffs.

[1300] He leads her to the room.

[1301] of door 32, her boss's motel room at the Ritz.

[1302] He says, go in and get the phone and come back out.

[1303] She kicks the door, like, to knock it.

[1304] Yeah, yeah.

[1305] The boss answers.

[1306] She runs inside and slams up behind her and dead bolts it.

[1307] Yeah.

[1308] He's shocked.

[1309] He can't believe, like he's shocked.

[1310] He screams, come back outside.

[1311] She goes into the window and just shows the handcuffs come only dangling off one hand.

[1312] Oh, my God.

[1313] And then he runs.

[1314] Okay.

[1315] So she texts him.

[1316] This is the most amazing part.

[1317] She texts him and says you need to bring back the keys to the Lincoln.

[1318] And if you just drop the keys off, I won't call the cops because it's her boss's car.

[1319] And like, you don't steal my boss's car.

[1320] running away.

[1321] I'm on the edge of my fucking seat right now.

[1322] Isn't this incredible?

[1323] Incredible.

[1324] It's incredible.

[1325] I mean, yes.

[1326] It's horrible.

[1327] It's horrible.

[1328] It's the beautiful shining human story of when you're in the shit and you fucking turn it around for yourself.

[1329] Because it's like she bit her own tongue and then loosen the duct tape like so she could talk him out of the and every little tiny get and gain that she got she used and used to her advantage.

[1330] Yeah.

[1331] It's amazing.

[1332] Okay, so he's still there.

[1333] Basically, the surveillance tape sees him go and drop the thing off.

[1334] He's still there when the cops show up at 9 .28 p .m. He drive, the cops let him drive away in his own car.

[1335] And she, and then the police come and interview her.

[1336] She basically says, here's what he did to me. Here's how he attacked me. You know, my whole head was duct taped.

[1337] Here's his phone number.

[1338] Here's his home address.

[1339] Here's his Facebook account.

[1340] Here's his full.

[1341] legal name, Khalil Wheeler Weaver.

[1342] She shows the injuries on her body, the handcuff that's still on her wrist.

[1343] They don't believe her.

[1344] Because she's a sex worker because they're at the Ritz Motel.

[1345] Probably because she's a woman of color on and on, right?

[1346] The usual bullshit.

[1347] Damn it.

[1348] They accuse her of sex work.

[1349] They threaten to arrest her for that.

[1350] What the fuck?

[1351] After an hour of back and forth and as she said being treated quote like trash they will the cops leave i just don't have the words that's well it gets worse insane of course because seven days after tiffany's attack no he strikes again no she tried to fucking stop it she tried to stop it and she did she did she did like superhuman things to stop it and and yeah that's it's on them that's the thing it has to change yeah it has to change.

[1352] Yeah.

[1353] Okay.

[1354] So now we have to talk about the final victim that, you know, could have been avoided.

[1355] Didn't have a chance.

[1356] Sarah Butler is one of three girls.

[1357] Her parents were Jamaican immigrants who worked hard to make the best life for their family in Montclair, New Jersey, which is just north of Newark.

[1358] She works several jobs during high school.

[1359] She buys herself her own car.

[1360] She's a dancer who practices tirelessly with her own dance troupe or with a dance troupe.

[1361] I don't know if it's It's hers.

[1362] In June of 2016, they actually, her and her dance troupe, they get to be on amateur night at the Apollo.

[1363] Nice.

[1364] They come in third place.

[1365] Oh, my God.

[1366] They place on it.

[1367] I mean, that's a big fucking deal.

[1368] That audience doesn't like anybody.

[1369] After she graduates from high school, she goes to New Jersey City University.

[1370] She's the first person in her family to go to college.

[1371] Wow.

[1372] But she does have trouble adjusting there.

[1373] So, and making friends, she, like, doesn't, you know.

[1374] she feels like she doesn't have enough friends so in November of 2016 she joins the social media platform tagged never heard of it never heard of it yeah um stevens on it um he's like oh i got to get an account quick stephen's like big cat 632 he's like i gotta get the percast in account before someone who steals it Jurassic cat party 987 plus mustache cat party 8387 plus mustache cat party 8 .3 .8.

[1375] Okay.

[1376] So somebody with the username Lil Yot Rock messages her with just a phrase sex four dollar sign question mark.

[1377] Poet.

[1378] Right?

[1379] She writes back, wow.

[1380] Well, how much?

[1381] Fair enough.

[1382] Like, I mean, okay, what are we doing here?

[1383] He asks how much she wants.

[1384] She says $500.

[1385] He agrees.

[1386] Okay.

[1387] She's like, what is, like, what's happening?

[1388] She writes back, you're not a serial killer, right?

[1389] LMAO.

[1390] He writes back, no. What does LMAO mean?

[1391] Laughing my ass off.

[1392] Got it.

[1393] Did you really not know that?

[1394] I've never known.

[1395] And I see it all the time.

[1396] And I just never asked anyone.

[1397] That's like the grandma move where they think LOL means lots of love.

[1398] So it's like so sorry about the death of your mother, L -O -L.

[1399] Oh, God.

[1400] That's my favorite.

[1401] That one and when Facebook first started.

[1402] coming out and you could tag people to a picture, and grandparents would start to write grandma, but it would turn into Grandmaster Flash.

[1403] No!

[1404] Yeah, because someone that had already been used so many times.

[1405] I never heard this.

[1406] So people, yeah, so people would get like family pictures and Grandmaster Flash would be tagged in every single one of them because their grandma was trying to write.

[1407] That's the best thing I've ever heard.

[1408] Grandma's house.

[1409] At Grandmaster Flash's house.

[1410] Oh, my God.

[1411] Isn't that the best?

[1412] So basically, he, as I said, he says, no, they make plans to meet up, but she gets cold feet.

[1413] She stands them up.

[1414] Also, let me just say this.

[1415] Sarah Butler was not a sex worker.

[1416] She was a student.

[1417] Yeah.

[1418] It's circumstances for all of them.

[1419] It's circumstances.

[1420] It's circumstances.

[1421] And it makes me think of, did you hear that Harvey Weinstein's female lawyer recently said, because somebody asked her, like, what would you do if this was you?

[1422] And she said, I would never put myself in that position.

[1423] That is fucking cunt.

[1424] It's, how dare you?

[1425] But here's, here's how they dare.

[1426] This is the rationalization.

[1427] This is, it's this weird leftover problem from women my age and older because that's the only line that ever got fed to anybody, which is you, it's on you to prevent a rapist attacking you.

[1428] It's on you.

[1429] And that's what all of culture said.

[1430] And that's what all of other people said.

[1431] And there was no social media with super cool feminist writer.

[1432] that were going absolutely not it's the rapist that needs to stop raping and like that it's just such an old mindset but the idea like these days to hear it back now yeah so to hear that a woman was sexually assaulted it's like another point in your favor because yet again but it's never happened to you and so you must be doing something right and you know what I mean like instead of that being it's you just never know I would love to actually crack that open though and really see what's behind that because I can't believe that a woman woman that's a very successful defense attorney actually believes that.

[1433] I can't believe it.

[1434] And I can't believe it and I can't believe that she would say it unless she is just an absolute like mercenary sociopath that simply doesn't give a shit about other women or other people.

[1435] I think that's what it is is you hate other women.

[1436] You also don't know the nuances of sexual assault and you want to blame.

[1437] You just want to blame.

[1438] Or you'll do anything for the money your client is giving you, which includes basically telling like a bold -faced lie.

[1439] You can't control the situation.

[1440] You can't control that.

[1441] You would like to think you could.

[1442] It makes you feel safer.

[1443] Yeah, it makes you feel safer and it makes you feel superior.

[1444] Like you have some control over your life.

[1445] Sorry.

[1446] And it makes it so that you don't have to empathize with Harvey Weinstein's fucking victims.

[1447] Victims.

[1448] And, yeah, you don't have to empathize.

[1449] You don't have to feel like shit for being a fucking, for defending Harvey Weinstein.

[1450] Well, and also because it just also then takes the focus, which happens all the time in sexual assault situations and cases.

[1451] The focus magically gets taken off the rapist.

[1452] Yeah.

[1453] And we're suddenly talking about what the victims did or didn't do to deserve what they got.

[1454] Fuck you, bullshit.

[1455] Yeah, we could go on and on.

[1456] Okay.

[1457] We could go on for it.

[1458] Okay.

[1459] So, essentially, she thinks it's like she's flirting with somebody on this.

[1460] app and talking about stuff so they make plans to meet up she gets cold feet and stands him up okay two days later she changes her mind and messages him sorry about the other day i got really nervous i feel like an ass your voice and your pick don't seem like a match he tells her i'm a really cool guy when you get to know me on the night of november 22nd 2016 sarah does her hair red extensions in a ponytail and she borrows her mom's blue minivan and she meets up with who she knows to be Lil Yacht Rock at the address he gave her, which happens to be the abandoned house at 354 Highland Avenue in Orange, New Jersey.

[1461] When she pulls up to the house, it's 9 .55 p .m. and Khalil Wheeler Weaver gets in to her car.

[1462] She drives to a 7 -Eleven surveillance cameras capture him buying condoms.

[1463] He then has Sarah drive up to a wooded hillside of a park called Eagle Rock Reservation.

[1464] And up there, there's a restaurant called High Lawn Pavilion, and it's like up on a cliff.

[1465] He directs her to the back of the restaurant's valet lot behind a green trailer.

[1466] I'm sure she thinks that they're driving to like go make out or hook up or whatever.

[1467] Instead, he attacks her, he wraps her head in duct tape, he rapes her, and then he strangles her to death with a pair of sweatpants.

[1468] Oh, my heart hurts for her.

[1469] It's awful.

[1470] When he removes the duct tape, he takes off some of her red extensions with it.

[1471] he drops her body behind the trailer and basically puts leaves and twigs over it.

[1472] When Sarah doesn't show up the next morning, her mom calls her cell phone, it goes right to voicemail.

[1473] So they, her family reports her missing.

[1474] Three days later on November 25th, 2016, Bessani's friend spots the blue, and I'm sorry if I'm pronouncing that name wrong, but that's what it looks like.

[1475] They spot the family's blue minivan in this, in that same lot.

[1476] so Bessania and her friend Lamea Brown along with the police go check it out and that's when they see Sarah's hair extension so knowing she's in danger Lamea and Bessania drive to Sarah's house Lemia knows her Sarah's laptop password so they log in to see if Sarah's been chatting with anyone and that's when they find the conversation with Little Yacht Rock and they get this idea so they have another friend named Samantha Rivera create a fake account and start chatting with him.

[1477] Oh, my God.

[1478] A day later, the three women are at the police station giving another statement about Sarah's disappearance.

[1479] When Lil Yot Rock messages Samantha, he says his name is Taj, and he tells her everything he was telling Sarah, basically offering money for sex and saying, let's go hook up.

[1480] So the text turned into a phone call with Taj while they're at the police station.

[1481] Wow.

[1482] So Basani pulls out her phone and takes a video of Samantha having the conversation.

[1483] Yes.

[1484] It's all there.

[1485] The women trick him into meeting up at a nearby Panera bread.

[1486] Then two detectives take the women's place and meet him there.

[1487] Holy shit.

[1488] So when he shows up, he gives police his real name, which is Khalil Wheeler Weaver.

[1489] The police question him.

[1490] There's nobody.

[1491] There's no clear evidence that he has anything to do with Sarah's disappearance.

[1492] They still don't know where Sarah is.

[1493] And they can't, there's nothing to arrest him on.

[1494] So they talk to him and they let him go.

[1495] But they continue the investigation.

[1496] They use Sarah Butler's phone to trace her last movements.

[1497] They see that there's a ping shown to be the Eagle Rock Reservation.

[1498] And on December 1st, 2016, police go to that location and they find Sarah's body there.

[1499] So four days after that, on December 5th, 2016, two housing contractors arrive at 354 Highland Avenue and Orange.

[1500] And they go to inspect the house because the owners want to sell it.

[1501] And when they get there, they find the body of Joanne Billy Joe Brown.

[1502] She's the second victim who he left on the stairs.

[1503] They never found her.

[1504] She was just missing.

[1505] Oh, shit.

[1506] Yeah.

[1507] So police now realize they have a serial killer on their hands and that all the women in these cases are connected.

[1508] So on December 6, 2016, police arrest Khalil Wheeler -Weaver.

[1509] But it takes them three years to build their case against him.

[1510] when the police question him he lies to their faces he shows them where he met the woman he claims he returned them all safely and soundly none of it's true and it isn't until they look into his phone records that they actually get the evidence that they need so the phone actually shows he was at every location where each girl was murdered those fucking pings man you can't you can't do it anymore you can't and also you can't do it anymore because he googled things like quote how to kill people with bleach and quote homemade poisons to kill humans and he also googled police entrance exam practice test.

[1511] Yeah.

[1512] Oh.

[1513] Yes.

[1514] Which is kind of a weird common thing with serial killers.

[1515] A lot of them want to go into police work.

[1516] Or like are super interested in what in police stuff.

[1517] Probably because they want to outsmart them.

[1518] Right.

[1519] Yeah.

[1520] Okay.

[1521] So Tiffany Taylor does not find out about Khalil's arrest from the police, she reads about it in the paper three weeks after her attack and subsequent escape.

[1522] Wow.

[1523] So they don't even reach out to say we got this guy.

[1524] Yeah, because we didn't believe you to begin with.

[1525] Right.

[1526] When Kille is arraigned in New York, in Newark Court on December 13th, 2016, Tiffany Taylor is there.

[1527] Yes.

[1528] And she goes back in February of the following year when he is indicted for three counts of murder.

[1529] One count.

[1530] of attempted murder, aggravated arson, desecration of human remains, aggravated sexual assault and kidnapping.

[1531] And at this point, of course, her mistrust of police and of, you know, like the system, yeah, but in this system entirely, she fears them, she doesn't trust them, it has not worked for her, but she still shows up to testify against this guy in court.

[1532] Incredible.

[1533] She faces him from the witness stand as she describes her attack, which which is the exact same M .O. of the three murdered women.

[1534] She is quoted as saying, quote, I want him to see me. I want him to know it was me. Wow.

[1535] And it is Tiffany Taylor's testimony that seals Khalil's fate.

[1536] Because on December 19th, 2019, just three months ago, the jury finds Khalil Wheeler -Weaver guilty of 11 felonies, including attempted murder, kidnapping, and aggravated arson.

[1537] He is still awaiting sentencing.

[1538] And that is a tragic story of the murders of Robin West, Joanne Brown, and Sarah Butler, and the amazing survival story of Tiffany Taylor.

[1539] Wow.

[1540] Just happened.

[1541] Wow.

[1542] Just happened.

[1543] That is incredible.

[1544] So when Sarah Butler was murdered, that was an article that I remember reading online because of the thing where she said, L .O .L. Are you a serial killer?

[1545] And that was kind of how they pulled all that out.

[1546] But I don't think they knew about the story.

[1547] of the other victims and how much they intertwined and how much, you know, Tiffany Taylor like, she couldn't have had more proof.

[1548] She couldn't have had more evidence.

[1549] She's just fucking handcuffed on her person and she was dismissed because of what she did for a living and...

[1550] That is incredible.

[1551] I'm so glad I went first and don't have to follow them because there's just no way.

[1552] Oh my God.

[1553] Yeah.

[1554] It's incredible.

[1555] It's an That's such, it's such a good story.

[1556] Thank you.

[1557] Thank you so much, Elise.

[1558] That was such a good suggestion.

[1559] A plus.

[1560] A plus work.

[1561] It's incredible.

[1562] For the first time in my life, I'm speechless.

[1563] As the baby sister, I can say the first time of my life.

[1564] For the first time, you have no retort.

[1565] I can't believe that.

[1566] I know.

[1567] It's incredible.

[1568] And also just the bravery of Tiffany Taylor to go show up to the man that violently and brutally attacked her and was just like, goodbye.

[1569] Yep.

[1570] It's me. Yep.

[1571] And the friends of the victims who wouldn't let go and, you know, sister and friends.

[1572] I know.

[1573] And friends that are closest sisters.

[1574] That's beautiful.

[1575] It's beautiful.

[1576] Wow.

[1577] Great job.

[1578] Thank you.

[1579] Great job.

[1580] It reminds me of the Alaskan story that you did recently too a little bit.

[1581] Yes.

[1582] Of like survivors not being believed.

[1583] Right.

[1584] You know.

[1585] And having to basically just power forward anyway.

[1586] Right.

[1587] Yeah.

[1588] Yeah.

[1589] Wow.

[1590] So what's your fucking array now.

[1591] What's your fucking hair right?

[1592] Because mine is possums and I don't want that to be right.

[1593] It can't be possums that are visiting my patio.

[1594] Like it just can't be.

[1595] It has to be something else.

[1596] So let me think.

[1597] Mine's possums.

[1598] And it can't be.

[1599] So, well, no, this is, it's not connected.

[1600] These are like, now this is just the, it's making you happy.

[1601] It's the palette cleanser.

[1602] It's the thing of we focus on these stories because we want to hear these stories.

[1603] We embrace these stories.

[1604] We want to lift up these stories, but also we have to then put them down and make sure.

[1605] That reminds me when Vince watched all episodes of the Ted Bundy doc, which he was so into, and we were just like commenting.

[1606] It was so good.

[1607] Vince is becoming such a good feminist.

[1608] At the end, he was like, I'll meet you downstairs for bed in a minute because I need a pallet cleanser and has to watch something like lighthearted.

[1609] Yes.

[1610] So he totally has that too.

[1611] He can't, he can watch these.

[1612] horrible things, but has to have a palate cleanser.

[1613] 100 %.

[1614] Yeah, that's what we're doing.

[1615] So mine's possums.

[1616] Well, so we have it, like, we have a balcony patio thing and there's a tree that animal, we've realized animals climb up to, and we've seen raccoons and we have squirrels, and so last night there was a little baby possum, and so I just kept throwing food out, and it looks like we're composting on the patio, but really we're just throwing all our fruit and vegetables.

[1617] So the possums will come out?

[1618] Because I love possums.

[1619] Yeah.

[1620] So it's, and Dottie's so into it and it's just really exciting.

[1621] Because she will absolutely eat one of those possums if she gets outside.

[1622] They're bigger than her.

[1623] Oh, are they?

[1624] Yeah.

[1625] But she's just like, yeah, it's like watching TV for her.

[1626] Yeah.

[1627] But I, yeah, I just love those animals.

[1628] What's yours?

[1629] I think.

[1630] Possums.

[1631] I think it is this.

[1632] Somehow I am in all of my, the thing I never thought I would be able to do in this, in this, like, life is not the second a feeling struck me believe it and go with it and then basically my mouth would go connected to it sure that I remember talking about wanting to do that long ago and then just being like yeah never gonna happen um kind of being overtaken by storylines and this and storywriting and kind of future thinking and my pretend mind reading and all those things and you get and you feel and you get the emotions that go along with it, which aren't healthy because they're not real.

[1633] They're not real.

[1634] I've made myself cry from imaginary scenarios.

[1635] Oh, my God.

[1636] It's like one of my past times working through scenarios.

[1637] And there was, I can't even remember it wasn't anything big, but I remember just this week talking to my therapist about having a moment where there was like a feeling struck me that was big.

[1638] and sad and then instead of the reaction, going straight to the reaction, just going ooh, what's happening here?

[1639] And then like, and not being so, because it's this feeling that I'm interpreting as negative, I have to do something about it right now.

[1640] And I have to convince that it's not that or I have to, whatever, like, care take around this.

[1641] You have to manically control it.

[1642] In whatever way you can, you have to manically control.

[1643] It doesn't feel good.

[1644] No. And the idea is if I don't manically control it then it like then the bad feeling is just going to expand and take over and I will like be annihilated essentially and so the practice of actually just having a feeling and not doing anything at all which is brand new and I I'm sure there's some people that are like what the fucking talking about no but there's so many more people who are like thank you yeah it's weird it's just like to have a feeling that is strong and negative and not do anything about it, not say anything, not use anything, not eat anything, not drink anything, just to sit and be like, this is interesting because I observe it.

[1645] Yeah, which is like, I remember when we used to talk about that, say, eight years ago, and I'd just be like, I'd kind of nod and smile, but in my head I was like, impossible, like ridiculous.

[1646] This is stupid to even talk about.

[1647] I don't know.

[1648] It's that it's, I think also because our lives are calming down so much and this kind of strange explosion that has been a true blitz, like, as great as it's been and no complaints and all the things we always say, but a huge adjustment and very threatening to me, very threatening.

[1649] Yeah.

[1650] Because there's nothing scarier to me than potential happiness.

[1651] That's just like, you might as well come at me with a gun.

[1652] Yeah.

[1653] So all these kind of like, you know, reactions to fix or prevent, which is the intention.

[1654] And then the thing that actually happens is kind of like, what the fuck are you doing or saying?

[1655] And then you also don't let anything in.

[1656] So like whether it's positive or net, like the positive thoughts and the daydreams, like, how nice would that be instead of the everyone hates me?

[1657] You know, I think Jay thinks I'm lazy and like hit me this week that I'm like, it hit me this week that I'm not lazy.

[1658] Like that's always been my voice in my head that I'm lazy and I'm lazy and then I'm like, there's no time to be lazy.

[1659] Maybe Jay doesn't think I'm our assistant.

[1660] And also it's like, he's not thinking.

[1661] Thinking things like that.

[1662] I really don't think he is.

[1663] But yes, because that would be, like, you've decided that's the worst thing you could be.

[1664] And therefore, oh, that must mean someone thinks that.

[1665] And then now I have to do a thing to make sure that goes away.

[1666] Oh, God.

[1667] And instead, that idea that maybe just the feeling being able to build up a tolerance to negative feelings and watch them sit there and then watch them go away is like, I remember trying to do this when I, like, lived in Chicago when my life was also very terrible, and there was kind of no silver lining whatsoever.

[1668] And I would listen to the, like, Pema children, getting unhooked.

[1669] I would listen to the, here's what Buddhists do.

[1670] And I'd just be like, what is they talking about?

[1671] But, you know, those negative emotions and those negative thoughts at the time might have been helpful for you because they got you out of a situation you didn't want to be in.

[1672] Yes.

[1673] Right?

[1674] So like the negative feelings, the negative emotions, the shit that I have, it's like, it totally served a purpose at some point in my life.

[1675] I just haven't caught up to the fact that it's not working anymore and it's time for a new.

[1676] Yes.

[1677] Or like you're in the, in that middle area where you're like, I don't think this is work anymore but there's no way I'm letting go of this fake steering wheel.

[1678] Right.

[1679] Because I have to drive this car and it's like, no, sorry you're Maggie Simpson, you're not driving the car.

[1680] Sorry.

[1681] You're high if you think you're driving this car.

[1682] Amazing.

[1683] Right.

[1684] So just getting like this handle on there's also the option to do nothing, which I think it's a thing of like, and sorry, because I know this is going on forever, but it's just all my life, that was my, it was like, I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to make a joke, I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to talk super loud, I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to be mean to somebody else.

[1685] I had like five options.

[1686] Yeah.

[1687] And I didn't like any of them, but I, it was like I didn't have a choice.

[1688] I noticed last, last night, we were in fucking meetings all day yesterday and I noticed you did a thing where you yelled at me about something and I was like I know and then you were like I know like you didn't yell back at me you that sounds terrible but like you know you got mad at me about something understandably and it was just like oh yeah okay instead of like us fighting about it right yeah because I fuck it up some times my reactions are like the scale is incorrect and it's also I talk to you like I talked to my sister yeah which isn't accurate to our relationship.

[1689] Your sister can scream back at you.

[1690] And also, that's all my whole family.

[1691] It's literally like, turn out the light!

[1692] And I'm like, where are they madame?

[1693] They hate me?

[1694] Why don't know the light on?

[1695] It's so stupid.

[1696] I can't believe with the fucking light on this whole time.

[1697] God, Georgia.

[1698] You're over there going, Jay thinks I'm lazy, and I'm like, tell the idea!

[1699] It's like, we are perfectly set up to, like, trigger each other.

[1700] But it's that thing of like, then I would normally be in a reaction of, I just did that wrong but I can't be wrong so I have to make you wrong and then blah blah blah as opposed to drop it just drop it oh sorry oops didn't mean to say it like that oops you can absolutely go back real time I can't I should say totally work I mean I can as someone who yeah it works it works immediately apologize immediately go oops shouldn't have yelled that I just spent five days with Jim Kilgaref everything is on volume 11 my apologies where it doesn't have to be a thing and I don't everything isn't this like you're saying it's not this proof that I'm this fucking the worst person it's all just like human reaction that's what everyone does and it's been working for us for so long maybe there's a better way and you know what I think is like I think that at the very center of the circle is the podcasting sweater and I think that it's time for you to give it to me oh my I'm handing it no we'll Both where.

[1701] We'll wear half and half.

[1702] You do not have to give it to me. I'll get you one.

[1703] You knit me one.

[1704] I will fucking, I'll learn how to fucking knit.

[1705] Knit and I'll sit in front of the TV.

[1706] And I'll fucking knit you as well.

[1707] So I, look, I agree.

[1708] I had to make a joke because I was so.

[1709] I know.

[1710] I was going to say prove you're not lazy and knit me a sweater.

[1711] No, I don't do that anymore.

[1712] Fuck you.

[1713] I will not be oppressed by my own ideas.

[1714] Oh, yeah.

[1715] Is that, I mean that one?

[1716] Or should I have said possums?

[1717] Cleaner, shorters, opossums, opossums, yeah.

[1718] Well, we've done it again.

[1719] We did it again.

[1720] There, take it.

[1721] All of us together, holding hands.

[1722] We were skipping.

[1723] Barfing it out.

[1724] We barfed it all out.

[1725] Telling the stories.

[1726] Suggest more stories for us because these have been really helping us.

[1727] Oh my God, we've been getting great suggestions.

[1728] Thank you all for participating.

[1729] Also, people are being very thoughtful about the stories they're suggesting.

[1730] It's really cool.

[1731] Yeah, that and then, oh, shit, we were going to do fucking hoorays.

[1732] People have been telling us their fucking hoorays And we were going to read some of them And Jay printed them out for us Yeah and then we completely forgot Because we didn't record last week So our brains That much We have them somewhere Yeah we'll do it We're going to read you back Your fucking arrays next week So if you want to comment I literally thought you forgot We just did it Where I'm like Did I talk so long You forgot that I wasn't doing a fucking array You're like That story was great So anyways Possum Do it Possum No The other one.

[1733] Stay sexy.

[1734] Don't get murdered.

[1735] Goodbye.

[1736] Elvis, you want a cookie?