Ron Howard

[0] Hi, my name is Ron Howard, and I feel, frankly, indifferent about being Colonel O 'Brien's friends.

[1] You know what?

[2] And no one says this often, but Ron Howard, you prick.

[3] Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brandy shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[4] Yes, I can tell never we are going to be friends.

[5] Hello there.

[6] And welcome to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[7] I wanted to start out a little different, so I went with, yellow there, and that might become a thing.

[8] Yeah, like a Midwestern DJ from the 50s.

[9] Hello there.

[10] That's cool.

[11] Yeah, that's cool.

[12] That's really cool.

[13] That's cool.

[14] Yes, the cool bar here is exceedingly low.

[15] Joined by my compatriots, my confederates, compadres, co -owners, What?

[16] I have steak in this thing?

[17] Oh, no, no, not this.

[18] No, no, no. I bought a 1954 Nash Rambler and we're co -owners.

[19] I am satisfied.

[20] Yeah, it's an old kind of car.

[21] Can you just do a different car that I would know?

[22] Yellow.

[23] It's Sonam Obsessian and yellow.

[24] It's Matt Gourley.

[25] Sona.

[26] I just had a very nice experience.

[27] I had to go into a jewelry store to have one of my many chain pendants repaired.

[28] Why do you have so many chain pendants?

[29] Mr. T sends me one, like, once a year.

[30] Oh, that's cool.

[31] And then I feel like, yeah, you got awareness of that.

[32] So, no, I had to have something fixed a little bit.

[33] And I went in there, and they were immediately like, Conan.

[34] And it's all because of you.

[35] It's because they're Armenian and they, son it as a hero.

[36] I think you're kind of discounting how big I am in the Armenian community.

[37] Oh, are we?

[38] Yes.

[39] Oh, they did say, where is Fussy Man?

[40] Which is Armenian for coolest dude ever Yes, of course Well, I just look at my posture Anyway, we had a nice exchange And they were very happy that I went to Armenia with you That is the gift that keeps on giving Yeah, in L .A., especially To have street cred with the Armenians, you're in.

[41] Yeah, Eduardo's nodding a lot Eduardo, your wife is Armenian, am I correct?

[42] Yes, Von Cis.

[43] Yes.

[44] Check him out.

[45] What do you mean, check him out?

[46] He said, how are you?

[47] Yeah, Von Cis.

[48] Oh, I think you said her name was Vonsas.

[49] No, her name's Aza.

[50] Yeah, I know.

[51] When you said Vonses, no one, everyone listening just assumed that was her name.

[52] Not me. Except our Armenian fans.

[53] Yeah, of which we have a lot.

[54] Of which there are two and they work at a jewelry store right up the street.

[55] Vonses, yeah.

[56] But he said, I said brev, and he said, Inchpasek, and he went, whoa.

[57] Yes, so that's him.

[58] Let's not keep it pushing.

[59] I'm hungry.

[60] Yes, yes.

[61] Greba.

[62] Go, don't do that.

[63] Why?

[64] What's matter?

[65] Don't do your fake Armenian.

[66] You're doing so well.

[67] And just a matter of time before you...

[68] Matt didn't know it was fake.

[69] And I'm fluent.

[70] Yeah.

[71] And you do say every now and then I hit a real word accidentally.

[72] No, I don't.

[73] Graebus stabi?

[74] Not at all.

[75] Hush.

[76] Hush.

[77] Yeah.

[78] Yeah.

[79] What dialect do you speak?

[80] I don't like that.

[81] I almost fell for it.

[82] Do you even know that you asked a real question?

[83] Yes.

[84] Oh.

[85] No, you don't.

[86] Yes, I do.

[87] I speak Western dialect.

[88] Yeah.

[89] We always assume that.

[90] I'm a good, go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

[91] Oh, come on.

[92] We say go -go -go -go -go -d -d -d -d -d -d.

[93] Yes, yes.

[94] Anyway, I'm in, I think I'm doing well in the Armenian community, and I think if we go community by community, eventually it will have everybody under our tent.

[95] Did they hook you up?

[96] Can I go there and get some shit for free?

[97] Yes, they did hook me up.

[98] They gave me six pounds of dried apricot.

[99] It's rolled up like a carpet.

[100] Hush.

[101] Yeah, hush.

[102] It's dried up like a carpet.

[103] Well, you remember, when you and I went, that's what they kept giving us, was dried apricot and dried pomegranate.

[104] And it was very good.

[105] It was very good.

[106] Dried fruit.

[107] But I said, you know, we call Lee's bank home a fruit rolump.

[108] And they said, why are you speaking in that crazy way?

[109] And I said, I'm doing a comedy character.

[110] And this is a fruit rolump.

[111] Yeah.

[112] And remember then they said, you need to leave Armenia immediately?

[113] Yeah, they did.

[114] They almost kicked us out of the country.

[115] And they also were like, that's not funny even if we understood what you were doing.

[116] They said we understand the reference now and it's still not funny.

[117] Yes.

[118] Yes.

[119] Yeah.

[120] And I said, yeah, you could fool me because this looks like a fruit roll -up.

[121] You doubled down?

[122] Don't double down.

[123] By now, it's quadrupled down because I think I'm on the fourth go -around.

[124] A fruit roll -up.

[125] But we had a nice bond.

[126] That's nice.

[127] I do sincerely thank you for hooking me up in the Armenian community.

[128] They're very nice people.

[129] Well, you know what?

[130] I mean, this is sincere.

[131] It was your idea to go there, and that always meant a lot to me. So thank you for taking me to Armenia.

[132] Oh, of course.

[133] Free trips are the best trips.

[134] Also, it was your homeland.

[135] Oh, that's right.

[136] That's right.

[137] Yeah, that's right.

[138] Yeah, that's true.

[139] It wasn't a Vegas U -turned, you know.

[140] And what is your, what would you consider your ancestral homeland, Matt?

[141] Would it be Scotland?

[142] I always thought it was Irish then learned it was definitely Scots -Irish.

[143] But now I think I'm mostly English.

[144] So let's just go hit all three.

[145] You and me, huh, buddy?

[146] You know what?

[147] I'm up for it.

[148] Okay.

[149] So, are you in on this trip?

[150] Yeah.

[151] Are you, you're paying?

[152] Well, it's not going to be me that's paying.

[153] We're going to find a sponsor.

[154] Oh, okay.

[155] Okay.

[156] I'll totally go for real.

[157] Yeah.

[158] We're going to get solo stove to back this.

[159] Do we have to use a solo stove on the plane?

[160] We have to fly a plane that's made of solo stoves.

[161] They're all welded together.

[162] And the plane is constantly on fire, but there's no smoke.

[163] Yeah.

[164] And it's kind of a jet turbine.

[165] Exactly.

[166] If you point it the right way.

[167] No, that's my idea that I've had for well, and I think I've mentioned this, which is I just start talking up a product a lot.

[168] Now, we happen to have a relationship with Solo Stove.

[169] They're not paying for this mention right now.

[170] This is a freebie for you guys.

[171] Shout out to Solo Stove, but I do think we should start talking about products that we don't have a connection to.

[172] And then we'll get into bed with them.

[173] And I mean, like, Apple, where is Apple been?

[174] Apple's a huge company, and this is a cool podcast.

[175] Adam, you're - And they need to advertise.

[176] Yeah.

[177] Yeah, because, you know what I, even hardcore Apple fans, if they aren't made aware that there's a new Apple phone somehow through advertising or something, they're not going to know.

[178] I need to buy a new desktop.

[179] I'll wait.

[180] Okay.

[181] I think, why don't you do a preemptive Apple read right now?

[182] That'll get, let them know that you really care about the product.

[183] You know, I love Apple and I always have because, well, Apple just gets the job done, you know?

[184] Get her done?

[185] Wait, that's not good.

[186] Okay, someone else does that.

[187] This is a good song.

[188] That does work because that's Larry the cable guy on cars.

[189] Who's a Pixar, which is owned by Al. No one else made that connection, though.

[190] He just sounded like he was having a breakdown.

[191] No, he meant to do that.

[192] He's the rain man of useless information.

[193] That's true.

[194] No, but what I believe is that, look, look, I'm just going to say it.

[195] You know, I got the Apple Watch.

[196] I use the Apple phone, as known as the iPhone to many fans.

[197] Yes.

[198] And see the Apple Watch on your wrist right.

[199] Are you trying to help or not?

[200] I wear it when I'm exercising.

[201] You're wearing it somewhere else.

[202] Can I tell you something else?

[203] Yes.

[204] They make a special one for other regions of the body, and we just lost Apple.

[205] But you know who we have Samsung?

[206] And Samsung is great.

[207] You know, Samsung is great.

[208] Do we really have Samsung?

[209] Oh, we have Samsung a big way.

[210] Why are we doing an Apple commercial?

[211] I thought about that halfway through Conan's Apple read.

[212] Can I say something?

[213] Can I say something?

[214] Can I just say something?

[215] I love a TV?

[216] Let me just riff off the top.

[217] This is just, I just had this thought, fuck Apple.

[218] Yes.

[219] You know what I mean?

[220] Like, what the fuck?

[221] I'm not buying a new Samsung people.

[222] I'm buying a new Samsung frame TV.

[223] And guess what?

[224] I'll tell you something else.

[225] This is why I should have been talking about Samsung.

[226] I don't even, by the way, does anyone use an Apple phone?

[227] Is it called an Apple phone or an if, is it if phone or iPhone?

[228] I think it's if phone, right?

[229] No, everyone calls it an Apple phone.

[230] Everyone does.

[231] Anyway.

[232] Keep saying it.

[233] Those, I mean, it just, it seems like a badly run company with a product no one cares about.

[234] Yes.

[235] Here's the thing.

[236] Samsung, they actually have a Conan channel on the Samsung TVs and it just plays me this is my wet dream all my life.

[237] Well, I'm sorry by wet dream I didn't mean anything gross I meant a dream that I would have at night that would make me come.

[238] Oh, Samsung, are you listening?

[239] Yeah.

[240] So I guess I did mean what you thought I meant.

[241] That's definitely what I thought.

[242] So anyway, it's this channel.

[243] Have you watched the Conan channel?

[244] I only watched it.

[245] It's fantastic.

[246] Yeah, it's amazing.

[247] I don't watch anything else.

[248] And sometimes my wife is saying, oh, you know, I hear showguns really good.

[249] And I'm like, well, what's that later?

[250] More!

[251] And her, she's crying and her, she wears a lot of mascaraas, you know, and it's just running.

[252] Classic Liza.

[253] She's a big guy.

[254] Yeah, it's running down her face like Tammy Fay Baker.

[255] And she's like, I just heard showguns.

[256] I'm like, quiet!

[257] This is me in 98.

[258] I'm killing it.

[259] Kill it!

[260] So, yeah, Samsung gets it done.

[261] And then I guess is, what happened?

[262] Apple.

[263] They kind of fell apart for them in the late 90s.

[264] Well, while we were talking, they went bankrupt.

[265] That's what I'm told.

[266] We have that much kind of power.

[267] And when I said that much kind of power, that's not a real sentence.

[268] That much kind.

[269] If I catch myself before you do, that's not a problem.

[270] Hey, I'm going to wrap it up right now.

[271] I just want to say yellow to all our listeners.

[272] And remember, Samsung's the way to go.

[273] And if you need a phone, I don't know.

[274] I wouldn't miss my money.

[275] Okay, don't ever do a coming.

[276] And they do everything.

[277] What?

[278] Appliances.

[279] Who are we talking about now?

[280] Samsung.

[281] I thought you were talking about Apple.

[282] Apple doesn't do shit.

[283] Okay, now you're going too far.

[284] What if they're about to buy in?

[285] Oh, okay.

[286] Oh, yeah, we've got to leave the door.

[287] What did you think about that?

[288] Yeah, I think we should leave the door open.

[289] I don't leave the door open to crack and say, I think they do make a fine product.

[290] But we love Samsung.

[291] We love Samsung.

[292] But, you know, why isn't there room in this world for both?

[293] I don't know what that voice is.

[294] It's a good yellow for all of you.

[295] And what you said to me?

[296] Said von Cents.

[297] And I can't wait to meet her.

[298] I can't wait to meet your wife.

[299] I'll be like, Voncest.

[300] Vonses, you're more beautiful than I thought.

[301] And she'll be like, what are you talking about?

[302] Why are you saying you're more beautiful than I thought Eduardo's wife?

[303] Yeah, yeah.

[304] You think the voncese is weird?

[305] You know what?

[306] You're a way more beautiful than I thought.

[307] That is my, you know what?

[308] There's so many layers to that.

[309] I've been saying that to women for so many years.

[310] And I have to say it, not.

[311] getting a good reaction.

[312] So many times I say to women, I say, you know, people bring their spouses by and I go, oh, you're so much more beautiful than I thought.

[313] And it's weird.

[314] You're essentially saying, I thought you were ugly prior to seeing you.

[315] Yeah.

[316] And it also implies I'm thinking about you a lot.

[317] Yes.

[318] And think of you as ugly.

[319] Hey, would you do me a favor, Eduardo?

[320] Tell Vonciss.

[321] Tell Vonsis, I'm very sorry for what I said and I didn't mean it.

[322] And I can't wait to meet Voncis.

[323] Keep her away from him.

[324] All right, we got to get into it.

[325] And what a show we have today.

[326] What a show we have today.

[327] My guest on the podcast is an Academy Award -winning director of such movies as Apollo 13, A Beautiful Mind and Night Shift.

[328] He now has a new documentary on Disney Plus called Jim Henson Idea Man, and it is a must.

[329] Ron Howard, welcome.

[330] You have this reputation, is being like, oh, he's the nicest guy.

[331] And then you come in here and you take me off.

[332] I can, well, I can take it or leave it.

[333] I'm here, but I'm here.

[334] I'm here.

[335] You know, to be honest, you really could.

[336] I mean, I was shocked.

[337] You showed up.

[338] You've had a level of success.

[339] Frankly, I'm surprised when anyone shows up.

[340] But you've had a level of success where, yeah, you do not need to be here.

[341] And I'm appreciative that you're here.

[342] No, I actually do.

[343] I've always loved conversations with you.

[344] Going back to your rookie year on TV.

[345] That's right.

[346] You came on.

[347] You were one of the early people to come on the show, and you agreed to do a bit.

[348] No one knew who I was.

[349] And we were trying very, very out there bits.

[350] And we said, what we want to do is we want to saw your arm off.

[351] And you said, OK.

[352] And we did a bit where you had a stunt arm.

[353] And at one point, we're talking.

[354] And I just take out a saw.

[355] And I saw your arm off and you're screaming.

[356] And you were fantastic.

[357] And of course, most people didn't know who I was.

[358] You were.

[359] you've been iconic since, I don't know, 1965 and beloved.

[360] And so people, I remember this is back when people would write in with complaints, but people were saying, the way you treated Ron Howard.

[361] I didn't really saw his arm off.

[362] I loved it.

[363] Hey, a funny redhead.

[364] There you go.

[365] Okay, I have a very clear, distinct memory of getting invited to some event.

[366] I don't know what it was.

[367] Maybe it was like a vanity fair party, something that where I would feel a little bit out of place thinking do I belong here and I'm with my wife and I get they seat me at a table with you and your wife and a couple of other people but we're all right next to each other and then you and I start to get into this very intense conversation and I remember people at the table thinking wow what's what are Conan and how we're talking about it's really intense like are they talking about film what are they talking about my wife leaned over and she listened and then she said to the rest of the group sunblock and it was true it was true and I was and you were saying like yeah no no Here's what I do.

[368] I always try and wear a hat.

[369] But, you know, it's got to be at least a 45.

[370] And I was like, yeah, yeah, but is there zinc in there?

[371] And you're like, here's the deal come.

[372] Zinc can be problematic.

[373] And we went really deep.

[374] And then, and of course, your wife was like, yeah.

[375] Well, my wife's a redhead.

[376] Yes.

[377] Your color, it's vivid redhead.

[378] And same as Bryce.

[379] When Bryce was our firstborn, the first time that we took her in, we went to the dermatologist, Cheryl and I, and brought Bryce.

[380] and Bryce was literally in her arms.

[381] So she was maybe a year old.

[382] And the dermatologist, you know, gives us each our checkup and so forth.

[383] And then he says, you know, you're going to have to keep a hat on her.

[384] You're going to have to keep her.

[385] And then he looked at Cheryl and looked at me and he said, you know, she's very pale.

[386] She's pale.

[387] I said, yes, we know.

[388] He said, you're not going to have any more kids, are you?

[389] Oh, my God.

[390] He meant it.

[391] Oh, my God.

[392] Yeah.

[393] I remember.

[394] I remember distinctly having a conversation with the dermatologist once where he said, okay, okay, this is when I'm in my 30s, and he went, okay, okay, I mean, but look at the freckling you have, the sun damage.

[395] And I went, well, yeah, I've, you know, and he said, well, do you do you do sunblock?

[396] And I said, yeah.

[397] And he said, do you wear a hat?

[398] Yeah, do you wear a long shirts?

[399] Yeah.

[400] Okay, but what about some days, do you ever, like, walk, how do you get from, like, the car to the, and I said, you know what, I live on the planet Earth.

[401] And there's nothing we can do about that because it has a sun.

[402] So, some.

[403] son is going to get to me and it's like, well, it's your death.

[404] It's like they're afraid you're going to bring down the level of life expectancy for their patience and for everybody.

[405] They smirch their record.

[406] Yeah, it's going to lead to a lawsuit, probably.

[407] You mentioned Bryce, who I adore, she's a terrific talent, beautiful.

[408] You must be very proud of her.

[409] You told me that when she came on my show once, it was a very tense moment for you.

[410] Why?

[411] Well, I mean, I, you know, I'm a parent of a daughter.

[412] You know, that sort of constant worrying about your kids is kind of, you know, it's kind of faded.

[413] I don't feel pretty confident about this.

[414] I don't have that.

[415] I never had, I never, I just thought like, hey, man, I'm in show business.

[416] I got to worry about myself.

[417] Yeah.

[418] These kids are on their own.

[419] Well, good for you.

[420] Yeah.

[421] But you walk your path.

[422] Yeah, okay, okay.

[423] But, but, but she said, I'm going to cry on demand on.

[424] Conan's show.

[425] And I said, oh, come on, Bryce.

[426] And I've seen her do it.

[427] She can cry.

[428] She can cry on command.

[429] And I said, but that's not.

[430] I mean, it's a show.

[431] It's a live show.

[432] I mean, you know, and she said, no, I'm going to do it.

[433] And so then she told me it worked.

[434] So I know that.

[435] And yet, when I watched her on the show doing it, I was so edge of my seat still.

[436] I'll tell you.

[437] I recommend, if you get a second, check this out.

[438] Because Bryce was a on the show and she did this.

[439] And it was really, I think, I mean, I can't say this about my own show, but it was a very cool moment of television because she said she was going to do it.

[440] The whole audience gets very quiet.

[441] And there's a process and you can hear a pin drop.

[442] My heart's pounding because I'm thinking I'm the host of the show.

[443] I can only imagine what you.

[444] Failure is not that funny.

[445] Yeah.

[446] I had gotten used to it at that point.

[447] But I was, I was, and then it happens, and it is you, it was a moment.

[448] Like, and I've heard about it from so many people.

[449] And when the tear finally rolled down, I was like, oh, oh, no, everybody cheered.

[450] Might as well have been a Super Bowl touchdown, yeah, yeah.

[451] But I, but here's the thing about Bryson crying.

[452] Uh, her first professional job, maybe not her first, her first time on Broadway was this tartuff, this classic show.

[453] And so here she is in this theater, opening night.

[454] She is sick.

[455] Fever.

[456] Cheryl and I had to get her to the theater, and we weren't sure she was going to be able to even do the show.

[457] But, of course, it's opening night, so she's doing it.

[458] And there's this scene where she's at their father's feet and begging for something, and she starts crying.

[459] And we're sitting in, like, the third row.

[460] And it's, you know, it's theater.

[461] So people can fake cry, and it kind of war.

[462] But she's really crying.

[463] Tears are going down her face.

[464] And it's just like an unbelievable moment for me coming from a. the theatrical family and all that.

[465] And I looked over and Cheryl's just kind of sitting with her arms crossed, kind of with a little smile on her face, no emotion whatsoever.

[466] So we get to intermission.

[467] And I said, babe, weren't you knocked out by that moment?

[468] I mean, you know, there she is.

[469] She's got a fever.

[470] It's opening night.

[471] She's crying real tears on Broadway.

[472] And she said, are you kidding me?

[473] She did that every day of her life when she was 17.

[474] Because she couldn't use the car.

[475] We've all seen that.

[476] You mentioned coming from this family, it's really worth noting that your career, improbable in so many ways, because just on Andy Griffith alone, you could have spent the rest of your life, setting up a card table and going to conventions and having that amazing experience.

[477] And it's so funny because I'm around, I get to interview so many terrific actors talking to Walton Goggins the other day, talking to Billy Bob Thornton, both of them cite the Andy Griffith Show as being seminal for them.

[478] Amazing.

[479] And I think, I understand it because it's character comedy, not afraid of a long pause.

[480] Right, right.

[481] Not afraid of.

[482] And I was saying there are scenes outside the courthouse or in the barbershop that feel like waiting for Godot.

[483] Yeah.

[484] And beautiful.

[485] Like, it really does hold up.

[486] Well, it's, you know, it was so much a function of a kind of singular creative voice.

[487] Not that Andy wrote.

[488] He wasn't the, you know, he wasn't even, didn't have a producer credit, but it was his show.

[489] It was tailored to his sensibility.

[490] And Sheldon Leonard, the executive producer, and very active on the, on the show, was this old character actor who had become this incredible television producer.

[491] Had great success with Danny Thomas and Van Dyke and Andy Griffith show.

[492] And for a moment, he was like the comedy producer.

[493] But he was there all the time.

[494] And they were always stressing character.

[495] And Andy used to kill Joe.

[496] if they were if they were too broad and and he just kept saying the south is plenty funny on its own without having to reach for it and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and uh like he didn't like pedico junction and hillbilly ellogy that's a movie I directed yeah he didn't like beverly hillbillies right uh and you know because they because you know they were because you know they were doing sketch basically yes And, and, uh, high concept, he didn't, he didn't like Little Abner, you know, and so as a result, I don't know that there's, that there have been other single camera shows that kind of held that tone.

[497] Maybe Real McCoys is a little bit, but they didn't have Don Nott's, you know, and, and I was remarking, uh, recently that it's the ability to have two characters just talking about, oh, it's a nice day.

[498] Well, those bits were usually when the show was short.

[499] And they would come, so we would shoot Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, single camera, read on Thursdays, rehearse on Thursdays, rehearse Fridays, shoot Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

[500] And several times, these scenes, the kinds that you're citing, usually between Don and Andy.

[501] Yep.

[502] I remember vividly, Aaron Rubin, our showrunner, coming down and saying, talking to Andy, and then Andy would, he always called Don Jesse.

[503] Yeah.

[504] And he was saying, Jesse, we're short.

[505] Come on.

[506] And at the very last thing of the end of the Wednesday night shoot would be the two of them and they would have just talked about it a little bit and they'd wind up doing one of these scenes.

[507] And they're amazing and it's just, I love watching them because they're just playing the silences and it's so well.

[508] And of course you've got these two consummate, beautiful actors.

[509] They're just such great comedic actors, but just, oh boy, it's a nice day.

[510] Sherry's, isn't it?

[511] Yep.

[512] Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

[513] And you're watching it and you're thinking, I have this theory that comedy has been increasingly compressed to the point now that when any series starts, they have to start at the most dramatic moment.

[514] And then that's a flash, that turns out it's a flashback.

[515] Right.

[516] Because they can't start slowly.

[517] You might, people can flip to another streaming platform too quickly.

[518] Right.

[519] So every show starts with main character, has five bullet holes in them.

[520] and is screaming, and then you cut to two weeks earlier.

[521] And I think they don't trust us that this is going somewhere.

[522] And there's a lot of parallel editing and everything.

[523] And just the idea that one of the most popular shows in television history could often consist of people playing things in that pace.

[524] And the fact that the show really does endure.

[525] I mean, it's actually on, like, all the time.

[526] And especially over COVID, I kept hearing from people that it was like a lifeline.

[527] you know, for them.

[528] But here's the thing.

[529] How lucky was I to grow up in that situation where, in fact, the environment was set up for actors to not improvise, but participate, make suggestions, things like that.

[530] And even as a six -year -old, I mean, my dad was having to read the lines at the read -through.

[531] And I would just kind of sit there at first.

[532] My father rants.

[533] But later, you know, when I started to learn to read and so forth, I was in it.

[534] And I actually started occasionally making a suggestion and they'd never you know never went anywhere kind of pissed me off a little bit yeah yeah uh in that first year yeah and i will never forget it was the second episode of the of the second season and i had turned seven and uh we were rehearsing this scene where i was supposed to come into the into the courthouse and otis haltsmith otis though was over here and andy was there and don was somewhere else and uh and i came in and i was supposed to say hey pa something something whatever the line was.

[535] And then I sort of stopped the director, Bob Sweeney, said, what is it, Ronnie?

[536] And I said, well, I don't think a kid would say it that way.

[537] Oh.

[538] And he said, well, how do you think a kid would say it?

[539] I don't remember what the line was, but I pitched my little fix on it.

[540] And he said, okay, good, yeah, do it that way.

[541] And it was just like I was a part of it.

[542] I just felt this surge of, you know, of being involved in something.

[543] And Andy from across said, What are you grinning at, youngin?

[544] And I said, what's the first idea of mine you've taken?

[545] And he gave it the proper beat.

[546] And he said, well, it was the first one that was any damn good.

[547] Now, let's rehearse the scene.

[548] To a seven -year -old.

[549] But you know what's also nice?

[550] If you look at the history of situation comedies, especially usually, and increasingly and increasingly so through the 70s and 80s and 90s, the kids' role was to say something overly sophisticated and wise -ass wise -assie that a kid would never say right so that's where you get all these you know the gary coleman character that's just like well if you ask me sounds like this guy's paying too many taxes you know and i love that episode i know that's i agree with him i think we are paid too many times but um and what i think really holds up well is your character is a real boy he's a you're playing you're playing the reality of the situations you're not saying Now, let me get this straight.

[551] Otis is drunk again?

[552] Sounds like someone needs rehab and like winking at the camera, which by the way would have been a great line.

[553] But, well, okay, this is something that means a lot to me and it was and I didn't know anything about it at the time, but later Andy told me this.

[554] So when we were doing like a revival, return to Mayberry or one of those interview sort of, you know, specials or something, Andy told me. me this, that in that very first season, the first episode, that my dad was an actor, not a famous actor, but he was professional and working, took it upon himself to just go up quietly to Andy at one point and say, now I see their writing Opie, kind of the way they write the Rusty Hamer character on Danny Thomas.

[555] And like so many shows, where he's a wise ass.

[556] And he said, you know, Ronnie can do that and everything, but what if he actually respected his father.

[557] And Andy thought about it and told me years later that he went back to the writers and said, let's write, let's write Andy Opie like Ronnie Rance.

[558] Oh, wow.

[559] And, uh, yeah, and let's try that.

[560] And they went for it.

[561] Yeah.

[562] Well, it stands out.

[563] We've been fed a steady diet of everyone hates dad.

[564] Dad's an idiot.

[565] Right.

[566] And the kid knows it.

[567] And the kid knows it.

[568] And he's always letting him know it.

[569] And it got amped up, sometimes stretched out in kind of a meta way, like on married with children where, you know, or sometimes the Simpsons where they're actively plotting their father's death.

[570] But does make me laugh.

[571] It's effective.

[572] No, no. It's really funny.

[573] And I think the right way to go.

[574] My point is, your dad was wrong.

[575] And I don't think you should be here.

[576] That's fascinating to me that you were part of that, and you could have been part of so many shows, but that one's different.

[577] Then you go from that, you're in film, and then you start to think, You know what I think I'm going to do?

[578] I'm going to, you want to, you're interested in directing because you've been, you're around, you're watching directors, you're interested in it.

[579] And there's a job you take on a TV show and you think, well, this probably won't get in the way of me going to film school.

[580] Right.

[581] Because what TV show lasts more than a pilot or first season?

[582] Right.

[583] And so you sign up for happy days.

[584] You idiot.

[585] Which, now, now, I mean, I mostly know, uh, Andy Griffith show, Maybury RFT, from reruns, because I really come of age in the 70s, the thing is happy days.

[586] Like, it's, it's the, it's suddenly the only show on TV that we all watch.

[587] And you're just right there at the heart of this thing, this juggernaut, and it was not the plan, right?

[588] No, it wasn't really the plan.

[589] And, and, and also, of course, the course of the show, it evolved, you know, as, as, as, as Henry Winkler's character, Fonz took off.

[590] You know, the whole show shifted.

[591] It was pretty thrilling to be around it.

[592] And we went from a solid show to sort of drifting like that we get canceled to let's put Fonzie front and center and take advantage of this.

[593] And then I think we became a number one show, even that first season that we went in front of an audience, which was a huge education for me because I'd never done anything in front of people.

[594] And here we have this Gary Marshall, this great bunch of writers, Lowell Gans among them who wound up writing with his partner, Bob Blue Mandel, you know, night shift and splash and so many other movies, League of Their Own and Cities Lakers.

[595] Anyway, but suddenly it was about these hard laughs and that I had never really been around that search.

[596] You know, Don Nott's would sometimes get there, but it was more of it, it was a gentle, you know, totally based on reality.

[597] I was terrified doing it, but I learned so much.

[598] And Jerry Paris was this consummate comedy director.

[599] The Nate, just educate film nerds out, I mean, TV nerds out there.

[600] Jerry Paris was the neighbor on Andrew Griffiths show.

[601] I mean, on Dick Van Dyke.

[602] Right.

[603] And they had let him direct and found that he had this incredible gift.

[604] And he was a funny actor, but he was a brilliant comedy director.

[605] And we had him for almost 95 % of our episodes was Jerry.

[606] And he was a ringleader and just tremendous and a great teacher.

[607] And suddenly, you know, I'm feeling the audience and I'm understanding timing and all these kinds of things in a way that I never did before.

[608] Of course, Henry, great stage actor, Tom Bosley was on the show, you know.

[609] And when I finally get a chance to start directing comedy, where we are going for laughs, which is night shift and then splash, I was so grateful to have in my head the kind of the rhythms that I'd learned about, not from the Andy Griffith show, but from Happy Days.

[610] One of the things I remember, I think of the first time I saw it on Happy, was on Happy Days, and then you later on saw it more and more, but characters would enter.

[611] And, you know, first season of Happy Days, I remember, was single camera.

[612] Right.

[613] And, and shot more in this very filmic way.

[614] And then second season, you're in front of a studio audience.

[615] And then the show is becoming super popular, crazy popular.

[616] And so characters will enter, and the audience will go crazy.

[617] Right.

[618] And so characters had to, they're entering with important information.

[619] like there's a fire across the street so Ron you'll enter you'll enter the you know whatever the malt shop and you'll be like hey hey and everyone will go like and you'll stand there right just take a pause because you can't talk and you're not and look around and then you'll go and then finally when everyone dies down there's a fire across the street and if you take the reality of it there's something you're like a sociopath like why didn't you tell everybody right away I was waiting for my applause, man. Well, that was it, I mean, look, that was part of the excitement was to take the, you know, all the, all the hysteria around Fonsie and put it in front of an audience and, you know, and actually directly compete with J .J. Walker.

[620] Yeah, exactly.

[621] Which is, which is good times.

[622] Good times.

[623] And that's what they were, that's what they were going for.

[624] And, you know, the same thing would happen with JJ on that show.

[625] Yeah.

[626] And so it was kind of a, it was kind of a thing.

[627] Now, you know, I don't know, I'm not watching a lot of audience sitcoms these days, but I don't know whether, I think most people, they don't even shoot with an audience.

[628] I think they block and shoot.

[629] It's so funny because tastes have changed, times have changed so much.

[630] I think we're in a golden age.

[631] Sometimes people to cry, oh, TV these days.

[632] I agree.

[633] You know, you were talking about speed and density of comedy and so forth.

[634] When we were beginning arrested development, Mitch Hurwitz and I talked a lot about The Simpsons.

[635] And part of that style was to create, I kept saying a kind of density of laughs.

[636] And I was a big proponent of that, which kind of led to not only the style, which was sort of supposed to be originally a little more faux documentary than it wound up being.

[637] But, you know, I was pitching the idea of a narrator.

[638] And Mitch said, I don't think we're going to need that and we did it and so forth.

[639] You know, and he just, he shot it, and it was funny.

[640] But he said, you know, we should try it as an experiment.

[641] I kind of think you're on to something.

[642] So I was directing a movie in Santa Fe, and he said, would you just temp in the voice?

[643] And I, so I did it literally in the sound truck.

[644] We were on location in Santa Fe.

[645] I did it one lunch break for the pilot.

[646] Right.

[647] And so sent it off, didn't think much about it.

[648] A couple of days later, Mitch called back and said, well, I have really good news and news that maybe is good.

[649] or maybe not, I don't know.

[650] And I said, well, okay, well, give me the really good news first.

[651] He said, the pilot tested really well.

[652] Yeah.

[653] And I said, well, what's the mixed news?

[654] He said, well, I just don't know how you're going to feel about it because the narrator tested the highest and now you have to do it.

[655] We sold the show, but I said you're doing it.

[656] You're the narrator.

[657] But I loved being part of that.

[658] You know, it makes sense because my son and I watch, rewatch, rewatch, and re -watch arrest development all the time because he's got really good comedy taste.

[659] I'm not so much to his liking, but he's, but we'll watch it again and again and again.

[660] And what makes perfect sense to me, you know, when something's done, you just take it for granted that everything is the way it is.

[661] Right.

[662] So of course, it would never occur to me that you wouldn't be the narrator of Arrested Development.

[663] And I think for my money, if you had to say like, okay, there's, what are the, what are the, the, the, the, absolute acme, what's the height of television comedy?

[664] And you can, not one, but you can pick like five.

[665] A rest of the elements in there.

[666] Oh, well, thank you.

[667] The best of it is absolute perfection.

[668] And I do think that people know you, they like you, and they trust you.

[669] And you, your voice saying, meanwhile, Buster, Buster had his own ideas.

[670] And it's such a dense show, you know, Buster thinking he's in.

[671] Mexico, although really he's only 10 miles from his house, sleeping at his housekeeper's resident, you know, it's a constant, you're being taken by the hand through this absolute madness.

[672] And I don't think that show could exist without you there taking you along.

[673] Thank you.

[674] It was really fun.

[675] But whenever I'd have an episode where I really had a lot of lines, I said, Mitch, you've been, you've been struggling with this one.

[676] You're looking for the narrator to bail you out, man. Now, the reason that was funny is because when you found yourself reading lines like that.

[677] But Mitch, bona fide comedy genius.

[678] And that, you know, and the cast that we assemble from the first moment, it was like, you know, this is a little too good to be true.

[679] I mean, it's just home run hitters at every, you know, at every turn.

[680] Yeah, it is absolute.

[681] It is absolute perfection.

[682] I can't watch it enough.

[683] And it's still the go -to.

[684] If my son's had a hard day or I've had a hard day or we both had a hard day, well, okay, Arrested Development is still the go -to.

[685] Cool.

[686] And we watch it.

[687] And there are certain moments that I go to again and again and again that I can't.

[688] And I'm friends with a bunch of these guys.

[689] So I will corner Will Arnett and say, why does it bother you if you're dancing as the magician, but Buster's dancing as well.

[690] What bothers you that, because he's often getting like, no, no, no, I do that.

[691] But I'll just hound him all the time about that stuff.

[692] And he's got answers.

[693] Yes, he's got answers.

[694] So you've now hit a gusher twice.

[695] And that implies that you had nothing to do with it because you did.

[696] But you've had this great fortune.

[697] And then I remember very clearly seeing, oh, there's going to be this movie, Grand Theft Auto.

[698] And it's directed by Ron Howard.

[699] Now, since then, we're very familiar with the idea of an on -camera person directing a film, but I remember at the time thinking, what?

[700] Yeah, I felt that pressure because, you know, I mean, I was that, I might as well have had that famous t -shirt.

[701] What I really want to do is direct since I was about 14, you know, and I would get the most sort of patronizing responses when I would admit it.

[702] But I also made the most out of those situations, and I would hang with the directors and take notes and do all kinds of things.

[703] And, but, but, you know, yeah, that was not a transition and particularly to have been a kid actor on a sitcom.

[704] You know, the whole thing, it was, it was ludicrous in people's minds.

[705] So, but you, but you have a, you must have a confidence because you knew, on some level you knew I got this.

[706] Yes, I did.

[707] I really, I mean, I mean, in fact, I started shooting Grand Theft Auto the day after my 23rd birthday, but I was disappointed because, you know, I was disappointed because, because I had really planned to direct a feature while I was still in my teens.

[708] That was my goal, you know.

[709] And, but, you know, again, the business was so much more closed then.

[710] And there were, and there was not even any, like, MTV or anything where you could go and prove your chops somewhere.

[711] Or today, people can make a film using their phone.

[712] You take this phone and you make something, people go, hey, that was, and then you put it online, and if you don't need to convince a studio, If it gets like, oh, this got like 10 million likes, you're good.

[713] Well, by the way, I just got to jump to the documentary that we're going to talk about.

[714] Jim Hinson.

[715] I made a documentary about Jim Henson and the Muppets.

[716] But he and his wife, Jane, were so much like young content creators of today.

[717] Yes, yes.

[718] Because they're the new medium, the new thing, the tech that was interesting to them was TV, which was just brand new.

[719] And he wasn't even interested in puppets, but he loved television.

[720] He wanted to be a part of it.

[721] He was, you know, he was living in Washington, and he, he went down there and just kind of they looked for, they were looking for a five -minute puppet show to go with the news.

[722] I mean, you know, but they were just experimenting with TV.

[723] And he got in on the experiment along with Jane, ultimately became his wife.

[724] But you look at these crazy little six -second commercials they did and these little five -minute bits they did for after the news hour.

[725] and it was so inventive and it was all bets are off and just kind of whatever you want to do but they were getting their 10 ,000 hours in and they were doing what a content creator does now which is find your voice see if anybody's interested figure out what they're interested in and you know and go for there well at that time there was there was really no outlet like that for me I mean I literally was thinking about going down to public access television and trying to like do a show on public access television because getting the chance to direct a feature film.

[726] Entertainment was so much smaller.

[727] You said it was closed.

[728] It was a very insular world.

[729] There's three networks.

[730] Right.

[731] There's a couple of studios.

[732] They make the stuff.

[733] They decide who the people are.

[734] And so very impossible to crack into that.

[735] And especially if they have a preconceived notion.

[736] Like, I'm sorry, you're the guy from Happy Days and you're Opie.

[737] Now, I could have had a chance to direct Happy Days episodes in a contract renegotiation.

[738] but I said no to that because I didn't want anybody other than Jerry Paris to direct.

[739] It would be not fair to the cast.

[740] And the other thing I thought was, well, what if I whiff?

[741] You know, every once in a while, an episode doesn't work.

[742] And if I do well, they say, well, it's his show.

[743] If I have an off episode, then he can't even direct his own show.

[744] And it's three camera, not what I wanted to do.

[745] But Roger Corman was one of the few people who was taking that kind of a risk.

[746] And I knew that about him.

[747] And he wanted me to act in a movie called Eat My Dust.

[748] And I read Eat My Dust, and I didn't much care for it.

[749] I saw no Oscars in, you know, no Oscar opportunities in that one.

[750] But I did have a script that I'd written that was kind of a slice of life about a guy stuck over college break and, you know, in Hollywood.

[751] And I had some short films.

[752] I was supposed to go in and have this meeting.

[753] about eat my dust.

[754] American graffiti had been a big hit.

[755] Happy Days was becoming a number one show, and Roger wanted me to be in this car crash comedy.

[756] And my agent was going to come with me, to sit with me, to have this meeting.

[757] And he was my agent for like my whole childhood.

[758] And I remember saying, you can't go in with me. I was only 21, but I knew I was going to try to barter.

[759] Yeah.

[760] And he didn't care about that.

[761] I knew he didn't care about that.

[762] So I remember the look on his face he was shattered you know i mean this his client said no don't go to the meeting so i went in talked to roger i said i you know i i don't love eat my dust but what i really want to do is direct here's a script i think i've raised half the money coming out of australia 150 000 i needed another 150 000 in distribution and if you do that then i'll i'll happily be in eat my dust he he read it he got back to me he looked at my student films and he said well that's a character piece it's very well written but it's not what i do and he said here's what i'll promise you if you if you act and eat my dust i'll give you a chance to write a script if you write the script and i like it and you're willing to be in it again then i'll let you direct that if that fails i'll let you direct the you know second unit on something and the car crashes or the fights or something else so i thought okay so they're my big I leveraged my way into a second unit job.

[763] Yeah.

[764] That's going to look great on the resume.

[765] But I took it.

[766] And when Eat My Dust succeeded, I went in and I pitched so many different ideas.

[767] A sci -fi thing, noir thing, you know, just different kinds of projects.

[768] And he smiled.

[769] And he said, when we were testing, he was very aerodite, Roger.

[770] I remember, yeah.

[771] He had been to Caltech and he was in engineering.

[772] you know, an engineer at heart.

[773] He said, when we were testing titles for Eat My Dust, there was another title that came in a very strong second.

[774] Grand Theft Auto.

[775] If you can fashion a car crash comedy that we can correctly entitle, Grand Theft Auto.

[776] I'd probably make that picture.

[777] My dad and I cooked up an outline.

[778] We wrote a script in a month.

[779] It was the fastest green light I've had in my entire career as a director.

[780] Roger Corman passed, I believe, a week ago.

[781] A week ago, yes.

[782] And age 98.

[783] 98 years old.

[784] So sharp.

[785] I talked to him six months ago.

[786] I mean, he went to see my 13 lives.

[787] He went to a screening.

[788] He was so supportive of all the, all of his graduates.

[789] He just remained.

[790] Well, he must have been incredibly proud of what you, you know, pulled off.

[791] He was proud of all of us.

[792] He was proud of all of us.

[793] Jim Cameron, Joe Dante, Alan Arkish, you know, how, Francis Coppola.

[794] Scorsese, Bogdanovich, the list goes on.

[795] So I had this great treat yesterday, which is, I'm told I get to see an advanced copy of Idea Man. And I have a lot emotionally invested in this film because I have my own Jim Henson connection.

[796] I watched the film, and it's fantastic.

[797] It's a fantastic documentary.

[798] There are so many things I learned about Jim Henson that I did not know.

[799] Jim Henson, I didn't realize his background growing up in this Christian science.

[800] His mom's a Christian scientist.

[801] His mom's a Christian scientist.

[802] And he wasn't formally because he wasn't all that religious.

[803] But of course, he was raised in that environment.

[804] But he was creative.

[805] He was smart and he wanted to express himself.

[806] And his dad was a bit of a scientist, like an agricultural scientist.

[807] and so they would travel around to different parts of the country a lot of it in the south but Jim was looking for that kind of that kind of breakthrough but it was a moment of transformation and he seized that opportunity but it's interesting that he grabbed he wound up grabbing you know an ancient art form and elevating it when I was a kid sitting around we were talking about the Andy Griffith show a lot of the character actors who would come on that show would be bitching and moaning because radio was dead or vaudeville had gone and yet we all know that not those mediums didn't vanish uh you know there there isn't a vaudeville circuit per se but there's stand up there's circus saleh there's you know i mean there it's the the art forms are as as relevant as ever uh and uh and i think you're so right kona i mean i just think creative people figure out a way they find a way and what's fascinating to me is so jim henson uh is very interested in puppets, puppeteering, and one of the things that he wants to do early on is, and I haven't thought of this before, but it's in your documentary.

[808] A lot of puppeteering was done just in kind of a wide shot where you see With the theater.

[809] With curtains and priceneum and little curtains and the characters are all bashing each other and things are happening.

[810] I don't know if it's Jim Henson or his wife Jane, but they understand that the TV camera has to be right up against the puppets.

[811] Muppets and that you can see their expressions and you can see a character deflate and what's really fascinating to me is you look you know you have access in a documentary to all that early footage long before it's very sophisticated right it's basically Kermit but they don't know it's Kermit yet right right but the kind of the puckering of the mouth when there's a little bit of uncertainty and the looking to the side and then maybe looking back at the camera all that stuff is there and it's in close -up And they're looking at a, what basically looks like a kinescope.

[812] Like the technology is very crude.

[813] Right.

[814] But you can see, oh, my God.

[815] Yeah, they're looking at the monitor and sort of seeing, well, where is the camera and where do I fit in?

[816] Yeah.

[817] But the timing on this stuff was just fantastic, you know.

[818] Yeah.

[819] And we interviewed Frank Oz.

[820] You know, gave the family was great.

[821] They made the archives available, but also they made themselves available in a really, in a really significant way.

[822] And look, their storytellers themselves.

[823] So they, you know, they recognize the need to share what they understood about their parents, you know, in a dimensional way.

[824] And so that was incredibly value.

[825] But Frank was there side by side.

[826] And he gave so much to the movie through his interview.

[827] In fact, stylistically, you know, I tried to sort of channel Jim Henson in that aesthetic.

[828] A lot of stop motion, a lot of very kinetic cutting and some animated beats.

[829] Yes.

[830] Yeah.

[831] Some animations and things like that.

[832] And the idea sort of stemmed first from me watching a lot of Jim's experimental movies that had nothing to do with puppets.

[833] Which I didn't know about, by the way.

[834] Yeah, I mean, either.

[835] And they're cool, you know, and in fact, they anticipate a lot of what you're going to eventually see in commercials or even music videos, right?

[836] You know, I mean, they're kind of hard days night and stuff like that, you know.

[837] So, Frank, we did the interview, and I just had this idea.

[838] We did it in a cube because one of his experimental TV shows was called The Cube.

[839] And it's like a human being trapped sort of just with himself and his ideas and thoughts.

[840] So we decided to have the interview subjects be in a cube.

[841] It also would allow us to use those cubes.

[842] They're almost like television tests to keep putting a lot of visual imagery in there and keep telling this story of Jim and the Muppets.

[843] But we did Frank's interview.

[844] It was very moving, very informative, very funny.

[845] And I said, you know, Frank, what if we did like, what if your entrance into the set?

[846] We were going to have you just come and sit down.

[847] But what if we did it stop motion?

[848] And he, of course, instantly knew what to do.

[849] So we put the camera up high.

[850] We had a chair kind of squiggle in, come in and stop.

[851] And he went in perfectly, one take, laid out all the steps and all the beats so that we could do it.

[852] And it just established immediately for the editors and myself that, you know, we were going to inform this movie with this kind of aesthetic.

[853] Well, also, you were having fun.

[854] Yes.

[855] Which is the essence of Jim Henson.

[856] Yes.

[857] You know, my connection to it was that my whole reason I'm in comedy is I was always interested in comedy and doing it for my friends, and then I decide I need to be serious.

[858] So I go to a serious college, which turns out to have this very old humor magazine in it, as part of it, the Harvard Lampoon.

[859] I get on the Lampoon and almost immediately the person who's put in charge of it, the first woman to ever be put in charge of it is Lisa Henson.

[860] Then she's my boss.

[861] I'm working for Lisa Henson.

[862] And then every now and then Jim Henson's around.

[863] And I'm losing my mind.

[864] And he could not have been a sweeter, nicer man. And in fact, Lisa graduates, I take over the lampoon.

[865] And at one point, Jim Henson calls me and says, hey, we just finished the dark crystal.

[866] And we have these thrones that the creatures sit on in the dark crystal.

[867] Do you guys want one for your lampoon building?

[868] You've never heard me say yes to anything more quickly.

[869] And so I said, yes, how do I?

[870] make this happen because I'm still, I'm still a kid.

[871] I'm like 19, and I'm going, yes, Mr. Henson.

[872] So what do I?

[873] And he said, and it's funny, because when you're talking to Jim Henson, you're talking to Kermit, kind of, yeah.

[874] So Kermit's on the other line saying, well, you know, just get a van and come on down to New York and pick it up.

[875] You know, idiot.

[876] And I'm like, okay, Kermit and Henson, bye.

[877] So I hang up the phone.

[878] We rent a van, and my friend Mark Gannum and Maya Williams, we jump in this van.

[879] And we drive down to Manhattan, and I'm petrified.

[880] Because I'm like, we're driving to Manhattan.

[881] Suddenly it's like a Muppet movie.

[882] And I'm kind of a Muppet.

[883] And I'm going, what's happening?

[884] Beaker's day out.

[885] Yeah, exactly.

[886] I'm Beaker.

[887] And we get there, and sure enough, there's like, Snuffalovicus is hanging from the ceiling.

[888] And they say, oh, yeah, here's the chair.

[889] It's made of, it's not that heavy because it's made of this super light material.

[890] We carry it like a jewel.

[891] It's amazing.

[892] We put it in the back of the van.

[893] one of those chairs that they're, you know, at the studio.

[894] Yeah, and I drove it all the way back to Cambridge and we put it in the Lampoon building.

[895] So cut to, I don't know, like maybe nine months ago, I'm in Cambridge and a student comes up to me and says, hey, by the way, Conan, I'm on the Lampoon.

[896] You want to come by?

[897] And I went, yeah, sure, I've been there in a long time.

[898] So I go by and there's the chair.

[899] Oh, my God.

[900] Little banged up.

[901] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[902] Just they drink.

[903] I mean, the puppets drank.

[904] Yeah.

[905] It was that way when we got it.

[906] But anyway.

[907] Amazing.

[908] Well, Lisa's fantastic.

[909] She's amazing.

[910] She's great.

[911] So is Brian.

[912] You know, the whole family.

[913] Very talented.

[914] But it's kind of a tribute to them because, look, the reality is, and when you see the film, we deal with the family.

[915] Jim and Jane had an amazing, very unique and very specific kind of romance and relationship and working relationship.

[916] And the very thing that brought them together was the birth of this brainchild, the Muppets, also was the thing that ultimately kind of caused the relationship to erode.

[917] and the romance to be lost.

[918] And yet they, there was still so much love and respect for one another and for creativity.

[919] And the kids are great.

[920] And the kids love each other and they appreciate their parents in a very, in a very honest, you know, clear -eyed way.

[921] And they knew they couldn't make this documentary themselves.

[922] You know, they're creative.

[923] They're producers and directors and so forth.

[924] But I felt so fortunate that they would, that they would trust me. and I got very excited about it when I went and, you know, to the studio here, the Chaplin Hinson studio, and saw all this archival stuff because two things happened on that day.

[925] One was I saw those crazy TV commercials and that early, early stuff.

[926] I saw the experimental stuff that's just weird and strange and yet you can see in forms.

[927] Very avant -garde.

[928] Very cutting edge, very ahead of its time.

[929] But you could see, you know, the way that it influenced the mainstream.

[930] mainstream stuff that is so beloved that we all appreciate.

[931] And yet, and I also got to talk to the kids.

[932] And I recognize that there was this family story to be told as well that would be so relatable because there's a, there's, of course, there's a cost to that level of output.

[933] And, you know, and a human, you know, there's a human factor there.

[934] And we're all the beneficiaries of all that hard work.

[935] But we didn't see all the things that he did that kind of misfired and at the time disappointed him, including Labyrinth, which of course, now is a, is a classic.

[936] You know what's interesting is that you go back and you look at these moments and a lot of people forget this, but your documentary brings it back.

[937] I was a writer at Saturday Night Live for a couple of years.

[938] Then I'm doing the late night show and our studio was on the sixth floor, Sarnat Live studio is on the eighth floor.

[939] But right down the sixth floor, not far down the six for.

[940] There was a little office because in the early days of SNL, the first season, Jim Henson, Frank Oz, they're doing, the Muppets are part of SNL, and they had a little office, and they drew all of these characters on these pipes.

[941] And now, of course, it's been put behind glass and preserved.

[942] But in my day, you could just go by, and there's some pipes there, and they're just covered with...

[943] Those drawings.

[944] Yeah, amazing.

[945] I'm not trying to wipe them off, you know, because I like clean pipes.

[946] I just think pipes should be clean.

[947] But I couldn't get him off.

[948] But that was a misstep for them, right?

[949] Because that kind of didn't work out.

[950] Well, you know, what's interesting is that all the cutting edge cool sardonic, you know, Michael O'Donohue's, you know, wise asses at first season S &L were like, these puppets.

[951] What are they?

[952] These puppets are here.

[953] I hate these puppets.

[954] And so it was very, you can tell in the documentary, crushing to Jim Henson.

[955] And then he spirals off from that and creates the muppes.

[956] show.

[957] Yeah.

[958] But he'd been, he'd been trying to sell the Muppet show for years and failing.

[959] I mean, all the networks turned it down twice.

[960] Uh, there's a hilarious pitch sort of video that they made that using the Muppets to sell the idea.

[961] Yeah, yeah, and going completely over the top and it's Jim's voice.

[962] And it's just, it's just brilliant.

[963] You know, it's so interesting.

[964] Because Jim was, you know, you got to really know him.

[965] I met him only once, but it's so shy and retiring in person.

[966] You know, I mean, just kind of, and, and you, you think of them as a performer.

[967] but not with a microphone, not with a camera on his face, it's through the puppets, you know?

[968] We were talking about Andy and Don, but it became so clear, not even so much from the interview with Frank Oz because he was very modest about his contributions, but as I began to recognize and look at these videos, what a comedy team they were.

[969] Yes.

[970] Not just Bert and Ernie, but, you know, Miss Piggy and Kermit.

[971] There's a great bit in there with Fazi and Kermit.

[972] And this is timing.

[973] I mean, it's like precision, comedy, timing, and they just nailed these bits.

[974] Well, I think that's the thing is good comedy is good comedy.

[975] So if you're making it for kids on PBS or you're making it, you know, for adults, good timing is good timing.

[976] That's why, I mean, I always got my timing from early on from Warner Brothers cartoons.

[977] Because they were shown in shorts in theaters to adults.

[978] They weren't condescending.

[979] So the timing was pitch perfect on those.

[980] And then I think the same thing with when you look at a really good Sesame Street bit, it's just good.

[981] Yeah.

[982] There's no condescension of, well, this is funny, four kids.

[983] But I didn't realize how many of those bits that Jim directed.

[984] I just thought he brought the Muppets and performed and they did that.

[985] And I didn't realize that all those bits that used to catch my attention when three -year -old Bryce was watching them were the counting bits and these great little experimental things that would make me sit down and watch the show and kind of admire what was going on.

[986] there and envy it a little bit.

[987] And I later, I realized, well, that's, that was one of the, one of the reasons Jim did it.

[988] Because he never wanted to do kids programming, but they said, you know, bring the Muppets, but we'll also let you do your experimental films.

[989] But how about doing them for kids so that they can learn?

[990] And he had a, he had a son with severe learning disabilities.

[991] So that was something that he was, you know, clued into.

[992] And he was a, wouldn't you say that the reason it really worked at every level was that he was really a satirist?

[993] Right.

[994] Oh, definitely.

[995] It's always there.

[996] What's interesting is that the early way that he made money was by making television commercials.

[997] So there are these Muppet commercials that, I don't know if you've seen them, but they're in black and white.

[998] And it's before anyone knew they were the Muppets, but you can tell it's the same, kind of almost the same characters, but they're prototypes.

[999] But they're doing like Hormel Ham commercials.

[1000] Right.

[1001] But they're very, and they last like seven seconds long, but because they're seven seconds long, they're very meta.

[1002] Right.

[1003] They're very today's sense of comedy.

[1004] Yeah.

[1005] They're not by a Hormel ham.

[1006] They're, they're very weird and very funny by today's standards and must have looked like very strange at the time.

[1007] And yet really popular, you know, so they really, really broke through.

[1008] I mean, they were doing some kind of, I mean, there was almost always an explosion or a gunshot involved in a Hormel ham commercial somehow.

[1009] They're making, they're pretty much selling anything.

[1010] But they're doing ads the way we, as part of the podcast, we do ads, and I always do them in my sensibility, my way, and then afterwards think no one's going to pay for that.

[1011] Right.

[1012] And they do.

[1013] And you can leave this in.

[1014] I don't think they should.

[1015] But they do.

[1016] Adam Sachs is going to take that out.

[1017] But because they see the value of, we find out that they like that people listen to the ads.

[1018] Yeah.

[1019] And, yeah, I mean, they were, look, they were emotional without being sentimental.

[1020] Yeah.

[1021] Definitely always had a point of view.

[1022] And I always had something.

[1023] say, you know, in and around the zaniness.

[1024] But Lee, but the Muppet show, you know, I didn't think about it.

[1025] I loved watching it.

[1026] I didn't watch them, you know, religiously, but man, I'm, I watch them now.

[1027] I mean, those episodes hold up.

[1028] But I didn't realize that he was, he was basically taking the English dance hall, sort of almost like vaudeville, their version, and applying that to the show.

[1029] And he was making them in England.

[1030] Yeah.

[1031] So it's sort of once again, what's old is new when put through this filter.

[1032] You mentioned earlier, I knew Jim well, and I can't say I did.

[1033] I met him on a few occasions, and he was really nice, and he actually suggested he had some show that probably never went, and it was towards the end of his life, but suggested that I, because people were always like, that Conan's got like a look or something.

[1034] He's irritating, but he's got a look.

[1035] And Jim Henson suggested that I auditioned for something for one of his shows, and I, and I I remember they sent over, I've told this, but they sent over sides that had two actors, two characters, and I didn't know which one he wanted me to audition for.

[1036] Right.

[1037] So I showed up at the, and said to the woman who was running the audition, it says, Steve and Mitch, and I don't know which is which.

[1038] And she said, oh, here's the character breakdowns.

[1039] And she handed me Steve, and it said, women want to be with him, men want to be him, he oozes sexuality, blah, blah.

[1040] And I was just, like, deflating.

[1041] And then I said, I said, can I, I see the one for Mitch, and she had me, Mitch.

[1042] She was like, this gangly, goofy red -topped goon stumbles his way through life.

[1043] But people like him despite his many flaws and his asexuality.

[1044] And I went, I think I'm the second guy.

[1045] No, this is a lovely tribute.

[1046] And one of the things that really got to me is because of my connection, when Jim passed very suddenly in 1990, And it was such a shock because it was just out of nowhere.

[1047] He gets 53 years old.

[1048] 53 years old.

[1049] I was invited to that memorial.

[1050] And to this day, it's the greatest send -off I've seen anybody have because it's a funeral.

[1051] It's a funeral mass. It's a memorial.

[1052] And it started with, I guess, a letter from Jim that he had written, which is like, well, if you're reading this, it must mean I'm gone.

[1053] Right.

[1054] And he just decided to write this in case he ever passed suddenly.

[1055] And he did.

[1056] And it was so lovely.

[1057] And then all the characters come out, and we're all laughing and crying at the same time.

[1058] So you show footage of the memorial service, and I was there.

[1059] Yeah.

[1060] And I, to this day, have thought, that's what everyone should be like.

[1061] It can't be because we're not all Jim Henson, you know, but that's what it should be.

[1062] It really should be a celebration.

[1063] Well, it clearly was.

[1064] And, you know, his son, Brian read that letter.

[1065] And we have a bit of that in the, you know, it was a, you know, a. tremendous tribute and moment, but he's so loved.

[1066] Yeah.

[1067] I mean, everybody we interviewed, it was, you know, it was actually great to make a film that I thought was interesting, could be revealing, and actually just doesn't have a dark side.

[1068] I mean, it's just, he literally was just a guy who lived in a positive light and struggled, ups and downs, difficulties on a personal side in, in the relationship, sure, and yet set such a great example.

[1069] Yes.

[1070] Like how you navigate that too.

[1071] I mean, women's easy.

[1072] But when you struggle, that defines the man or the woman.

[1073] And you look at both Jim and Jane.

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] And you sort of say, well, that's, you know, we should do that.

[1076] The documentary is atomic.

[1077] I would recommend just watch it because you will laugh very hard, but it's also informative about so much more.

[1078] You were the right guy to make this.

[1079] Because I think, because you have, just in every single, single decade of your life contributed good stuff you know and I think that's who can say that that's really remarkable you know and I I'm so glad that you're here I'm so glad I know you I'm so glad you let me saw your arm off 30 years ago and um and we're still at it we're still going yeah let's do a leg yeah oh I checked out his leg on the way in that left one looks like it could go in any time anyway um make sure uh Jim Henson Idea Man is just, it's a gift and make sure that you check it out.

[1080] And Ron Howard, you're a gift.

[1081] Thanks so much for being here.

[1082] Great to be here.

[1083] And let's get together, get a drink, and talk sunscreen whenever you want.

[1084] Beautiful.

[1085] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend with Conan O 'Brien, Sonam of Sessian, and Matt Goreley.

[1086] Produced by me, Matt Goreley.

[1087] Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Nick Leow, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf.

[1088] Theme song by the White Stripes Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino Take it away, Jimmy.

[1089] Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.

[1090] Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns.

[1091] Additional production support by Mars Melnick.

[1092] Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Britt Kahn.

[1093] You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode.

[1094] Got a question for Conan?

[1095] Call the Team Coco hotline at 669, 5 ,000.

[1096] 27 -2847 -2847 and leave a message.

[1097] It too could be featured on a future episode.

[1098] And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.