Labrinth: The Musical Genius Behind Euphoria

[0] My tour manager came back to stage and he was like, you know you almost killed someone today.

[1] Like, literally it's like blackouts.

[2] Let's do this.

[3] I signed to Simon Cowell because my manager at the time was like, it's a bigger check.

[4] You're in a label that is going to prioritize you because you're not like anything on their label.

[5] This business comes around it and it says, we can turn this into money, but I allowed someone else to tell me what my next direction is.

[6] Yeah.

[7] Everyone was like, be a star, have an entourage and who you're going to go out with?

[8] And I was like, what do you mean?

[9] Oh, maybe Sher Lloyd.

[10] And I was like, what?

[11] None of this shit means anything to me. I just was like, I'm not enjoying this.

[12] I didn't ask myself what I wanted because I was always accommodating what everyone else wanted.

[13] When did you realize that something had to change?

[14] Well, that's a deep one now.

[15] I was at a place where I couldn't actually talk to people because I had social anxiety.

[16] My manager was being weird.

[17] Our relationship was breaking down.

[18] I had no confidence.

[19] I felt suppressed.

[20] I got, like, diagnosed with ADHD.

[21] When I read about what it's like, I was like, oh shit, it makes sense.

[22] I can't even hold a conversation.

[23] with someone.

[24] Was it prohibiting your life?

[25] Yeah, 100 % still does it today.

[26] But I've learned to be aware of it.

[27] Let's just do something.

[28] Just let it go.

[29] Euphoria was the first time I felt people actually heard the rawest form of lab.

[30] Getting to that point is true freedom.

[31] What are your goals now?

[32] The most important thing in my career is to...

[33] If this podcast has taught me one thing, it's that we're all created, by and defined and shaped and molded by our earliest context.

[34] So when you think about your earliest context and how that shaped who you are today and the person you went on to be, I'm talking about the deep characteristics you have, the deep passions you have, and all those things that were nurtured in those earliest years, what is your early context?

[35] What do I need to know about that context to understand you?

[36] Well, that's the deep one now.

[37] the first thing that comes to my mind is church family was super religious not always in the best way and not that I don't think there's anything wrong with religion it just was it was wrapped in a lot of things that I don't always think it's healthy but there was a lot of beauty as well in terms of music worship and for me in worship was work with energy like seeing somebody connect with an energy or taking them from their body with a sound or with connection in a church like seeing that happen like every Sunday can do something to you and you kind of learn from it so that was always beautiful and just watching my family because like I don't know how this happened but just everyone can sing or play an instrument or they have some kind of musical talent that was super inspiring to be around and then having a massive family as well was I think heavily shaped me because I always say this to people but standing in the middle of my house when I was I don't know 10 I would have my sisters upstairs singing like R &B records my brother downstairs with his friends playing like yellow jackets jazz music and like i don't know like um weather report and then my other brother ciphering in a room with his friends rapping and um banging on an mpc drum machine and like being in the middle of that was like i want to do all of them um and it was just mad like insanely inspiring just to be around all of these big personalities um that even today when I make music, I'm like, would my sister like this, with my brother like this, would my family feel this?

[38] Where did that come from, that musical household, who inspired that, parents, grandparents?

[39] It's weird because on my mom's side, I think it's the church, honestly, because my mom and dad were both in the church, and they both went to the same church.

[40] My granddad was a reverend at the church, and his, my aunties and uncles used to sing around and that kind of do praise and worship and do like a circuit around the country and that kind of passed down to us on my mother's side and then on my dad's side he's a guitarist he's well rest in peace he was a guitarist he was a bass player and his whole family were also in the musical side of the church so be like my mom and her family singing and my dad in the kind of playing with the musician so it was just kind of like always always, it was always around when I was a kid.

[41] And I think music has been like, I guess, like, my de other sibling that I didn't know was there, you know, that was related to us.

[42] And I think, yeah, I think it was between Christianity and thing, that was the beginning to me because my house was very, very heavily bordered around church, everything.

[43] Like, literally, we couldn't watch TV and without, like, the TV.

[44] TV been turned off when somebody was kissing.

[45] So, like, romance was like, oh, whoa, that's of the devil.

[46] And then when I went to school, that's when the, it was like, the kaleidoscope went wild.

[47] And it was like, oh, shit.

[48] All of the stuff exists.

[49] I really did feel like that when I was a kid.

[50] Because it was so sheltered, going to central London was like, going to another country to me. Like, that's how sheltered it was.

[51] And it was like, home church.

[52] And then everything else around that was like, I'm in a whole other world.

[53] So growing up for me was just like discovering this other, other universe or other dimension, if that makes sense.

[54] Yeah, yeah.

[55] What was your relationship like with your mother and father?

[56] Whew.

[57] My mother was, like I was saying, the church was beautiful but also toxic.

[58] And my mother was kind of shone from the church because she had children out of wed, lock and like I'm saying it's very heavily guarded and boarding so she was she was kind of disowned by a lot of our family and she she had moved from north London to Hackney and from then on I didn't I don't think I saw my grandparents for years like after that like after she was kind of put out one thing that happens in Jamaica is because of a lot of them came over here to the land of milk and honey um with race anything white was better so my mom was one of the darkest of her family and she grew up with um being kind of very a lot of her life was very shone like it was like you're you're the darker one of the family so um don't don't shoot for the don't shoot for the stars just just stay on the ground you know um and so because she was around a lot of that energy when she was on her own she kind of it's like actually made a promise to herself to not do that to her kids.

[59] And so growing up with my mom, it was very super supportive.

[60] Really?

[61] She used to teach us.

[62] My mom, like I was saying, it was very sheltered around, I'm very religious.

[63] She wasn't taught because women were supposed to be in the house, women are supposed to clean and do all this, have a husband and your husband will go and make the money and do all that stuff around.

[64] So she came out of this kind of community.

[65] and had no understanding of taxes, no understanding how to keep a house, no understanding of the business, nothing.

[66] She didn't know anything.

[67] And so she literally had to learn from scratch and would study psychology and study transactual analysis and study willpower.

[68] And she would teach us and sit us all around the table and be like, what is willpower?

[69] And I remember, I remember vividly, like, nine of us sitting around the table.

[70] And at the time, we're like, mom come on this is so boring why do we have to do this but she would kind of pull us into it and then we would end up having these big conversations about things that we just we never understood or never got and she just wanted to make sure she could give us something because she had no money and she was just kind of surviving she nurtured our music she nurtured our creativity and when she was coming up that wasn't nurtured it was shut up sit down and don't get in our way and that was her upbringing it it wasn't just my grandparents that was very much common in a lot of the parents of the 60s it was just like children are to be seen and not heard you know and don't don't embarrass me in front of my friends that was very much that and then with my dad my dad was he was very much abused when he was a kid by um his grandparent by by his stepfather he was being a lot when he was a kid and i think that affected him as a as a man like as a father and he left home when he was 15 So he wasn't there for me. I didn't see my dad when I was a kid.

[71] But I pity his beginning, like, because I get why he became who he became.

[72] He was super musical.

[73] And I think that was maybe the most inspiring thing.

[74] And that's the thing I got from him.

[75] I always used to see him playing his guitar.

[76] When did he leave your household?

[77] He left.

[78] How old were you?

[79] Shit, I don't even remember.

[80] That's how long ago.

[81] Like, I was young.

[82] I was super young.

[83] And I think he came back.

[84] well, he must have came back twice because I have two brothers and sisters younger than me. So my, yeah, he came, I think he left, I think he left on me. And then my two sisters that are younger than me, Rachel and Jessica, he came back around and they were trying to like kind of rekindle, yeah, yeah.

[85] Do you not remember that the household changing in any way when he left?

[86] I think I was too young Like I was I was really young So so when I grew up Not giving a shit that I didn't have a dad Like if that makes sense I didn't have a connection with him I didn't I didn't know him that way A lot of my older brothers and sisters were very close And very like this is my guy This is you know like My kids are like I'm Best friends with my kids I love like I'm We have our own private jokes We you know like we have that I never had that with my dad so I didn't feel like anyone left I only noticed how important he was when he died like I was like oh shit you needed dad and like it was like whoa you only noticed how important he was when he died yeah honestly like honestly before then I was just like oh it's just a sperm sperm donor like I don't really it doesn't matter to me it doesn't like it's like it was and it wasn't even by my mum it was just like I didn't I wasn't bothered about it you know but then when he died I was like I had kids then he hadn't met my my kids and I remember my I was putting my daughter to sleep and she had a bad dream and I said I got you don't worry I'm here and I was like shit I've never heard that and I was like oh that's what like that's a dad like if you get me like that's that's how important that part of your life is and then I was like also you inherit things from your parents like and that's not money that's not wealth you do of course inherit those things but i think the most important thing you inherit from your parents is memories even like mental health support like my dad always said this like that sometimes is like petrol in your tank when you're like i'm i don't know how to get this business of the ground i remember dad always said this i remember mom said don't never give up like all that stuff like i didn't grow up like if you get i mean so um that hit me when i when i was like my dad's gone and and i understood how like instrumental a parent could be in your life when those when those things are around you know yeah so that's what i saw anyway but but yeah that's really like my parents in terms of how they affected me i often like i think i figured myself out in hindsight by almost by comparison of like comparing me to my peers at a very young age you kind of notice how you're different from your peers even from your brothers and sisters i've got four there's four of us in my family kids i'm the youngest of four.

[87] And much of how I've understood myself is by realizing what I'm not.

[88] Yeah.

[89] You know what I mean?

[90] So when you think about like at that young age, under the age of 18, who were we figuring out that you were in comparison to the outside world?

[91] Even with my brothers and sisters, I remember coming home with indie records and I remember I was working with a girl and she played me blondie and like like loads of like kind of, like kind of, like, 70s 80s indie records I was like shit this is fun like I always wanted to delve in things that were foreign to me because I was like okay I grew up with grime I grew up with hip hop I get it but it was like what are these things I don't understand and then when I would bring them home I'd be like check this out and I'd be like okay bro especially coming from the background of that gospel and like kind of like you know black music and it was weird to come home with music that was so foreign you know and so nobody even knew how to compliment me on it but go like you're doing your thing i guess like you know and and i feel like i've seen that happen uh consistently in my life where i grew up around grime group around grime artists i went to grime raves but i never wanted to make grime and i never felt like i was um the kind of black guy that i was supposed to be when i was in those environments i was like i was always weird or like i never knew all the I used to dance funky and like I was just I just knew like I don't know if I'm supposed to be if I had 16 year old year 16 16 year old sir weird as hell just I remember my girlfriend told me about how when she met my wife now but when she was my girlfriend she was like I remember seeing you years ago and um uh you would wear a du rag I would be wearing like a um you know those capes like Marilyn Manson case like it was like fucking black ass jacket I would have like a you know those metal fingers um oh yeah yeah yeah yeah the tube yeah yeah the tube yeah so have a night finger on and it had like a crucifix on it and it was crazy I don't know why I was wearing it but I wore it and then I had like a Dunlop cap like backwards and then I would be wearing Dunlop trainers and I was just I was just a weird kid and I would I would always dress in the most funkiest ways ever and my wife was like it was just so funny you just didn't give a shit and I didn't even notice I was doing it I just was like well this is stuff I'm going to wear but most I remember being you know it's like 14 all I wanted to do is fit in so all I wanted to do was like wear the outfits that everyone else was wearing and just fit into the crowd and be accepted by the crowd you sound slightly different I couldn't even if I wanted to wear what everyone was wearing I couldn't I didn't have the money so it was like what was cool my family or where our call was was that we were creative and so we found our way of being popular or being um kind of loved amongst our peers by our like character and our personality if you get i mean and that was your whole family yeah all them dancers singers we would dance together we used to put on we we done a show in school together as a family and put on like a concert and we had the whole school come and pay to watch us perform so we were kind of like little superstars in our neighborhood like if you get i mean as a group so i remember you used to write articles on us the jackson nine and all this stuff like so it was like we were very like that kind of my family was rarely loved for just their creativity we never had the money to be those cool kids like somehow we like kind of um transcended uh the physical cool like the physical side of cool because we definitely didn't have that stuff interesting do you know who was driving that in your so you've said like the outside world responded well to it and they kind of embraced it and said but was there someone was there someone at home driving individuality in your in your house or was it just the fact i think it's my mom honestly and it wasn't my mom necessary my mom didn't get in the way of it and i think that's one thing if when i'm talking about things that you inherit from your parents i could definitely say i inherited that from my my my mom is that she didn't get in the way of us being ourselves um and if anything she would laugh at it or be like go do you like um um so like i remember yeah i remember vividly like that being just my mom being open and kind of seeing my my older brother jamie was a producer and a DJ and he used to make his own sound systems because he got inspired by um you know like dub basically you know like dub but at the time everyone was making like jungle but it was all it all came from the scar dub worlds if you get i mean and so he was used to make, I used to help him make his speakers for his DJ sets and then he would go out into like the festivals or not in Hill and put on his own DJ set with his friends.

[92] And so yeah, yeah, like that, all of this stuff was going on like side by side while I was a kid, you know?

[93] Sounds like a like a really, a nice form of like creative chaos, like the environment to be.

[94] It was chaotic though.

[95] Catoic is now.

[96] Well, when did you start focusing on music?

[97] What age?

[98] I don't know.

[99] because it's just kind of like I guess in school I had a band called Dynamics and one of the guys that were in it you might know him was flow he's a sick producer he's done little Sims out he's done so many cool albums like most of the stuff that everyone's loving right now he's kind of had a hand in and we had a band in school in Stoke Newington yeah that would that would inspire that would inspire a lot of stuff like we were making out on music we were like we're going to be the biggest band in a world we used to argue all the time like we were like like flipping rolling stones we thought we were like rock stars and in our school we would give out flyers and make our own flyers and like stick them up around the school like come to our concert and all this stuff so we were just very very like brashy and like we got this what age was this this this was like when that band started popping 14 so you leave secondary school at like 16 years old right yeah at that point what's your orientation in life?

[100] If I'd asked you what are you going to be when you grow up?

[101] What would you have told me at 16 upon leaving school?

[102] Everyone knew I was going to be a musician.

[103] By that point.

[104] Literally like I remember leaving like we had that in my classroom in school.

[105] They were like, everyone wrote down who do you think's going to be the most successful?

[106] Who do you think is going to be rich first?

[107] Who do you think's this?

[108] And they were just like, lab.

[109] And like, Tim, Tim, Tim, Tim.

[110] And I was like, I didn't even believe it.

[111] I was like, okay, cool.

[112] I know I want to do these things.

[113] But like I was super mega, focus.

[114] I used to get in mad trouble just so I could go to the music room.

[115] So literally like my whole existence has been like, I want to write records.

[116] I want to write records.

[117] And like, that's all I do.

[118] I was on a mission to write records.

[119] And what age did that start?

[120] Because I know when it started to when you got signed and when you released your debut album and stuff, but I'm trying to understand how long your like mastery process was from the first time you picked up an instrument or rapped or sung or wrote a lyric.

[121] But it's weird because of that my brother Josh amazing drummer McNasty bad boy drummer he taught me how to play the bass taught me how to play the drums and I would see him doing that so I'll just copy my older brother but because I have so many then I would go to Jamie's room and Jamie would teach me how to use the MPC so I would go to his studio and him and his boys would be smoking drinking and like on a madness and I would he kind of took me under his wing for a bit and I would like go around with him to like in his world which was very much more like it was much more like hip hop urban So you got this full kind of gritty like more hip hop Like we were listening to Pete Rock Wu Tang all that shit And then my other brother who was more musical Like a bit more like like instrument drums And I would be around his friends that were musicians You know so We spoke to someone on your team and they said that we could put any instrument in front of you and you'd play it and it's kind of like now I kind of understand where that came from yeah yeah it's just like everything's an instrument to me honestly everything like this table yep the sound of your voice is a tone like like I can just hear music all the time like it doesn't stop and I might be I don't know it might be like I got like diagnosed with ADHD because I thought I may have had it and so I went to go check and I was like when I read about what it's like I was like oh shit it makes sense why I'm so that's literally just all I do my life is that it is I raise my children and make music that's literally been my life you got diagnosed with ADHD yeah it's funny because I was sat here recently yeah with an expert on the topic so it's very front of mind the topic of ADHD yeah And one of the things he said was that, you know, there's been this rise in ADHD and our, in, in, in, in the world, specifically in Western countries.

[122] I'm only saying specifically because I know the stats where I think it's 30 years ago, one in 20 kids had ADHD.

[123] Now it's one in nine.

[124] And his take on it was that ADHD is an early response.

[125] Basically, when we were young and there was stress.

[126] in our households, the child, when they're stressful events, learns how to basically turn off their attention as a way to protect themselves.

[127] Yeah.

[128] Like switch their attention away from that thing.

[129] So, and they've looked at all these studies and really inspired by them where they get 65 ,000, 65 ,000 parents.

[130] And the parents who have the most stress in their lives end up having kids with ADHD.

[131] Yeah.

[132] Makes sense.

[133] And it's just interesting.

[134] So it's just front of my thought, you know, so it goes back to your childhood.

[135] Yeah, my shit sounds mad stressful.

[136] Yeah.

[137] It's not far off like in terms of.

[138] But yeah, even talking about it sometimes sounds silly because everyone thinks they have ADHD and everyone says it.

[139] So I was like, I hate kind of, I know it hates a strong word, but like talking about ADHD, I don't enjoy trying to victimize myself with it.

[140] And that's why I checked because I was like, I think it's disrespectful for a person with something that affects their mental health or something that affects them, their ability to do what they want to do or like to just live a life that is supposed to be, I don't know, what is normal, but yeah, you know, and that prohibits them.

[141] And I think it's disrespectful to be like, oh, I'm autistic, I'm this, without really like kind of knowing.

[142] And was it prohibiting your life?

[143] Yeah, 100%.

[144] still does it today.

[145] What's the, what's the symptom or what's the?

[146] Can't finish shit.

[147] Forget like, like literally it's like blackouts.

[148] It's like I'll, even in conversation, sometimes when people say something to me, it would be like I taking the information and it just kind of dies away and I'm like, shit, I can't even hold a conversation with someone or keeping up relationships, remembering to get back to people.

[149] And that in business, in terms of net.

[150] And I'm not talking about networking from a, um, using people.

[151] Like, I'm not ladder chasing, but there is a part of it where it's like, yeah, your life's, your business is not going to change if you don't respond.

[152] And so like, I would, I would work with artists and it would be like, lab, you're so sick.

[153] I love your shit.

[154] Please like, can, can you write my album?

[155] I'll be like, yeah.

[156] And then start the record and they'll be like, they haven't heard from me. Where's Lab?

[157] Why is he, he just, he just clocks out, you know?

[158] And it's like, I would just.

[159] forget I'm doing it and I'll get dragged into something else.

[160] I wonder if there's a relationship between ADHD and creativity because, you know, I hear a very similar thing from pretty much all of the artists that I've sat here with about about what you've just described there.

[161] Going back to all these instruments you can play and all these brothers and sisters that are playing a different variety of instrument and learning different sort of art forms, as it relates to like creativity, How important do you think it has been for your creativity and the art that you've created in your career to have all of these?

[162] I remember one person I spoke to, talked about creativity as being like all of these different clouds in your mind.

[163] And then sometimes the clouds hit each other.

[164] And that's like a new idea.

[165] Yeah, yeah.

[166] But in order to be creative, you have to have as many clouds as possible.

[167] I feel that.

[168] I think that's in learning, like, it's like being able to create variety in your ability.

[169] to, um, transmit, um, like an idea.

[170] Because I always look at, I don't, I look at creativity as, um, articulate in your soul.

[171] And that, that's the true form for me. Like, because you can be creative, but not really tell the truth while you're being creative.

[172] Like, you're just like, oh, I, I'm making something that I think people would like.

[173] Um, and that there's, and you can still be creative while doing that way.

[174] It's like, okay, cool.

[175] here's something that I know people are going to respond to you I'm going to get a reaction out of you and then there's the other side where I think to me I believe it's art where you're transmitting and you're articulating the sound or the frequency of your soul to a person and I feel like every soul has a song even if it's not in music like every soul has a direction or a place it wants to go and it has purpose and it's like I can and I always ask artists, I'm like, what do you hear in you?

[176] Like, not what do you hear outside of you?

[177] And oh, what's it?

[178] Burnaboy's doing this and that guy's doing this.

[179] And if I mix these together, then it maybe makes me. And it's like, no, no, no. What's in you?

[180] What do you hear like right here, like just internally?

[181] And so for me, I had to do that to find what I wanted to say.

[182] And I'm still finding out.

[183] I'm still kind of like, I guess it's learning how to, like be unafraid to be like totally naked because bearing your soul is naked like it's like it's like if I do this someone's going to be like this is shit and it's going to hurt if you're in the process of learning to be unafraid was there a time that you were taught to be afraid my whole life like everything I'm still afraid now but but I can see it and I think that makes a difference in terms of um whether I choose to be afraid But before I had no choice, I was just like, I don't even know what this is.

[184] I just was like, I'm not enjoying this.

[185] I wasn't enjoying my career.

[186] So I was like, I'm not enjoying, why am I not enjoying this?

[187] And then I was like, okay, I'm not saying what I want to say.

[188] I'm not saying what I feel like saying or what I feel excited about saying.

[189] And I feel like my world is being governed by accommodating my periphery.

[190] Like, my manager says, if you do this, this is going to gain a reaction.

[191] And it's kind of like your inner child says, oh I want somebody to say he's cute I want someone to say he's worthy and so you run towards that energy and I always always saying in the music industry it's like a bunch of kids trying to get a pat on the back that's what we're all doing and it's like if you see it in your ANR or you see it in your peers and everybody's trying to get that pat on the back like well done good boy and everybody wants to get the good boy and so we're all running off to good boy but when you finally realize like I don't give a shit about your a good boy.

[192] I don't want it.

[193] I want, I want, I want a good boy from myself.

[194] I want to, I want to be like, you said it, like you actually said what was internally going on.

[195] And I'm, does it matter what people say on the other side?

[196] Like, and get into that point where you're like, um, I am comfortable with what I will receive after I've said what I said, um, from my soul.

[197] I think for me is like true freedom is like okay cool I'm going to say what I need to say that's a journey right yo that's just scary man that's a journey so you start you know you start out in your career yeah you're trying to get on your line in the ropes people are telling you giving you advice you don't know better yeah so you follow the advice church boy in the music industry sometimes the advice pays off so you go okay I'm going to listen to you more yeah yeah and then at some point in your career and that's the worst part is when it pays off then you got then yeah because you think it works you're like well I did everything I didn't want to do but it worked so maybe I should do more of this and then what you're referring to I mean just like records or like what part of your career is this though I think uh okay so like with Simon Cow and when I signed to Simon Cowell I signed to Simon Cowell because my manager at the time was like it's a bigger check you're in a label that um isn't going to know is going to prioritize you because you're not like anything on their label.

[198] I was like, yeah, great idea.

[199] But I didn't think about it for myself.

[200] I allowed someone else to tell me what my next direction is because I don't think I had the strength at the time to even think about what I wanted for myself, if you get on me. Same way I owned a restaurant, that was my manager.

[201] It was like, you should own a restaurant.

[202] I was like, yeah, let's own a restaurant.

[203] And then I was like, I don't know shit about a restaurant.

[204] I've never cared about a restaurant and I only realised that later but it kind of felt like you're supposed to look like a mogul and you're supposed to look important and you're supposed to gather all these things that start to create keeping up appearances that's what it is yeah what I was hearing from that is like because you didn't I was going to say because you didn't know what you wanted someone else told you what you wanted but it's more like part of it sounded like you didn't have the conviction to stand up for what you wanted No. Yeah, that's what it is.

[205] I didn't ask myself what I wanted.

[206] I never did because I was always accommodating what everyone else wanted.

[207] And I still do it now sometimes.

[208] But, but I've learned to be aware of it.

[209] Is that in part because of like, when we're coming up, we're a little bit desperate just to get on that we just, we don't have the power yet to say, like, I want to do it my way because we're still trying.

[210] We still need the check or because we still.

[211] I think one thing I love about the ADHD is I don't think about money.

[212] same way most people do so like a lot of my peers in the music industry they're building a business because they can like they're going okay this yeah we're going to do this and that's going to come with that and they have this whole internal plan and I'm like my plan is like if I can take a sound out of heaven and put it on a fucking computer that is mad to me like that that that is like that literally lights up my whole soul and I feel so excited.

[213] Sometimes when I'm making music, I cry because I'm like, it hit me that hard, if you get, I mean.

[214] And so, like, that for me is like, it literally like I would live for that.

[215] That's enough for me. But then around that, like taking Stardust from the clouds or from wherever you want, from the universe, this business comes around it and it says, we can turn this into money, but you have to do this with it.

[216] and then you've got to funnel it and you can only do this in order to get that and you're like oh shit okay cool be a star what does the star look like oh be in a car with flipping tinted windows have an entourage and going like you're the shit okay cool but I don't really know how to do that I'm kind of really a geek like because that's what I was when I was 16 and then before you know it you're like I don't know that this shit means anything to me and I felt like I was being that's the time I think think when you're talking about this place where I don't believe I belong, I was in the music industry and like I was around.

[217] I remember like in Psycho, they went, who are you going out with?

[218] Like when I was first signed, it was like, who are you going to go out with?

[219] And I was like, what do you mean?

[220] It was like, oh, maybe Sherlock.

[221] And I was like, what?

[222] I was like, what do you mean?

[223] And then I'm going to send you to this party.

[224] JLS are there.

[225] You just got like, there's going to be photographers outside the building.

[226] Be ready to be like thing because we're trying to put you around this facade so i was like oh shit this is this how it works then i guess and and so being around that that was instantly like i i thought studying music theory and studying modes and scales was was your like uh what made you worthy of being in this industry if you get i mean um but it became like no entertainment isn't craft entertainment is entertainment and people will be entertained by anything so play the game Yeah, and so it was like, find your way.

[227] Like, just try and, try and lie as long as you can.

[228] When did you feel the symptoms of that?

[229] So I sit here with, I've seen her with a lot of people who did a very similar thing.

[230] And they say, I spent a decade, like, wearing the mask and, like, wearing the outfit.

[231] Yeah.

[232] And then at some point, you know, I remember finding cotton saying, like, she's driving to work and she just starts having panic attacks from the motorway.

[233] She thinks, fuck this.

[234] Sin.

[235] I'm going to my happy place and she launches this brand called Happy Place where she gets to control her and destiny and be herself.

[236] She doesn't have to do the like, oh, yeah, I'm fine.

[237] You know, she can be the full expression of her.

[238] That's a hard one, bro.

[239] Yeah.

[240] And it's funny, yeah, we all meet each other.

[241] Yeah.

[242] And that's, it's, we're all the same boy or girl waiting to get the pat on the back.

[243] Good boy, good, good girl.

[244] And then, and then I feel like we meet each other.

[245] And we're all pretending that we've got it together.

[246] So I could have seen Fern and she's like, I'm dying inside right now, but she has to be fun.

[247] I got it together.

[248] I'm like, shit, she's got it so well together, man. It's like, man, I'm lying.

[249] Like, they can see it.

[250] Like, I'm a fake.

[251] And everyone's doing that.

[252] But it's weird, like, and then it turned you into this person that's like getting kicks out of lying better than the other.

[253] Like, so you go to an award ceremony and it's like, we sold 50 million or, I don't know, five million records this week.

[254] How many did you sell?

[255] And it's like, I'm valuable.

[256] You start playing the game.

[257] Yeah, people believe in my lie and not.

[258] now I believe in it.

[259] And it's like, like it starts to create this thing in you where, and if it becomes successful, like we were saying, it's like, if it works and it pays off, then you're like, oh, I need to, I need to, I need to be this guy now.

[260] I've got, I've got to believe in this guy.

[261] And so, yeah, it's so funny, like, when you're saying with fun, I'm like, I would have never known.

[262] I would have never known that that stuff was going on.

[263] Because I feel like, I felt like she had it well together.

[264] And I was like, I was having panic attacks.

[265] What were the symptoms then for you?

[266] When did you realize that something had to change?

[267] I was smashing guitars on stage and I know rock stars do that.

[268] I was a church boy so it was, that was big for me. And I won show I was performing and I was like, I hate this.

[269] But I was saying I hate this, but I wasn't saying it in my mind.

[270] I was like, I could feel it.

[271] I was like, why am I?

[272] I'm in front of this crowd.

[273] there's not even the audience I wanted to be in front of what am I doing they're loving it but but I'm still just like what is this and um my band when I was talking about accommodating my band's eating my rider before I get into my room because I was accommodating everyone to the point where it was like like me please like I'll do whatever I can to make sure you're comfortable in my space even if it means giving you all my space so my band was eating at my rider my some of the people on my team were taking my like stuff from my like they would you know like brands when brands give you stuff they would take it and give it to their families nothing was given to my family and my mrs had actually noticed this and i was like no no no i was always making excuses for for everyone that was doing what they were doing where does that come from in you that people pleasing trying to trying it must be my dad it must be like that my dad because i think i've silenced my dad's absence in me. So it was just like, ah, sperm donut, don't worry, blah.

[274] And I had this thing in my head where it's like, I don't need this guy, but it's like, um, I think, uh, him not being present is like, what do I need to be for you to be here if you get me?

[275] And I think, um, that happened.

[276] And also, I think the music industry helped create some of that as well, where it was like, because before the music industry, I was that guy.

[277] I throw my du rag one.

[278] I think I looked, wonky as hell bro it was I look back at some of the pictures and I'm dying I'm like who is this guy but but I was confident enough to walk around London looking like this like hodge bodge and so because yeah because I think the music industry was like you need to be this and I was like whoa how in order to be accepted yes and from a young age you'd learn that like you had I guess at some stage you felt not accepted by your father is that what you're saying I think that where that came from yeah I think there's an element of that Yeah, yeah.

[279] I think that church as well was there and where it was like there was a way to behave.

[280] There was a way to be.

[281] There was a way to be to be loved.

[282] If you behave this way, this is what you get, you know?

[283] God loves you.

[284] Yeah, God loves you if you behave like this.

[285] Interesting.

[286] I'm really intrigued by the idea of like how how we become people pleases because and it typically, even from speaking to Gabel, who literally read a book about this, he says the same thing in those early years when, you know, we're seeking the acceptance or validation from a parent and we're struggling to get it.

[287] We have that battle with them of trying to prove that we're good enough.

[288] So that becomes our adult tendency to seek approval and seek trying to fit into other's expectations.

[289] You become an artist that becomes really prevalent in your life, in your music, to the point that you're on stage performing music that it sounds like, what is this?

[290] To a crowd.

[291] Who made this?

[292] Do you know what?

[293] So many of us, if we act inauthentically for a lot.

[294] enough time.

[295] We build a life around that authenticity.

[296] We build a friendship group around it.

[297] We build a, in your case, a fan base around it.

[298] And I dropped it.

[299] I was like, no, allowed this.

[300] And then the pain of keeping up with that expectation and that community you built around you, that doesn't resonate with who you truly are.

[301] That's when the panic attacks and the psychology kicks in and tries to save you.

[302] But I think I've spoken to a lot of eyes about it as well.

[303] Everyone thinks that by doing you, you're still going to achieve that same success and that's the scary thing I think for a lot of people where they're like I found myself now I'm going to make the album that I owe the piece of craft or work or thing that means everything to me and it's like no it's entertainment people don't give a shit like you did it for you just do it for you and it's like you have to know that some people may resonate with the true you or you might have to go and do work and build a new audience and it's going to take the same amount of time but people don't wonder like when they're like I'm going to be me and it's like yeah have you got 10 views on this one and it's like oh shit I'm going to jump back on that there is some kind of truth to the game that's the reality that's the reality of it I had to learn that as well it's like being you is for you and you have to do it for you and you also have to accept the consequences of being you and even the consequences of the way you do business as well.

[304] Like I don't want to talk all around the world saying hello to every and every person, not really connecting with the people I'm meeting.

[305] I'm just like, oh, I'm famous, just kiss my ass and I'm going to move over to the next country and do the same.

[306] Like I don't want to do that.

[307] It doesn't excite me and it drains my energy, it drains my creative energy.

[308] But if you don't tour, if you're getting a million for every show or you're getting a, I don't know, half a mill for every show, you're like, oh, maybe I would have to say no to that.

[309] Do I want to, do I want to go do that?

[310] And it's like, but then if I go, the true me that my centre says no, okay, no, I'm not going to do that.

[311] Well, then don't cry by it after.

[312] And a lot of us do where it's like, I made this decision.

[313] A lot of us can do that, you know, but learning to, like, really accept your choices and live and die by them can help you find fulfillment.

[314] And that, to me, is like, money.

[315] That's, that's, that's like, whew.

[316] You have this gradual feeling building from the sound of it.

[317] And then is that day on stage?

[318] Was that the turning point for you?

[319] Was that the day where you?

[320] Yeah, through a guitar in the air, I almost hit a camera woman.

[321] Why did you throw it?

[322] I was pissed.

[323] I was, I was backstage.

[324] Something happened.

[325] my manager was being with our relationship was breaking down and I I had a dependency it was intense I had no confidence I literally I was at a place where I couldn't actually talk to people because I was I had um social anxiety and and so he was super confident and outgoing and um kind of like was like someone to lean on and that kind of went up to my my early days in my career and so um our relationship started to break down and it felt like if I didn't have him saying my music's good it wasn't and I kind of looked to him for that like a father figure yeah yes exactly that like I kind of saw him as a father figure and we had a really close relationship and then it just started to break down when money started coming in and I felt that happening but I didn't know what was going on internally I was just like something's weird this is just messed up and then I went on stage through this guitar in the air this camera woman was there and I remember there was a fan in the crowd because I'm a people please are but also it pisses me off I was watching the crowd and there was this one guy and he was looking at me and he was like it was just like he was just saying dickhead like you look like an idiot and I was like I believe you ah and then I just threw this guitar in air and it almost hit this woman and I didn't see it and my tour manager came back to stage and he was like you know you almost killed someone today and I was like wait a minute so you threw this guitar because some guy in the crowd was giving you a funny look him and the thing that all this stuff was going on and then I was like what the fuck am I doing here like cool and then I threw this guitar in the air because I was just like fuck this place and then it literally just was like and just nearly just skimmed her and when he said that I was like wow I was like something's going on I need to deal with it did you have an anger problem A man, mad anger problem But that's ADHD as well But mad anger issues Like from primary school I don't I don't really I haven't seen that guy for a very long time But crazy Because it reminds me again of the thing You know Gabba Gabel was here like five hours ago He's literally written a book on this This is why all these topics are so friend of mine Yeah yeah And what he was talking about is there's There's such thing as healthy anger Where Which is actually a cure Something that allows us to heal because he says that when we have like chaotic upbringings and we have abandonment from a parent, et cetera, et cetera.

[326] It creates this kind of like internal anger and resentment.

[327] Yeah.

[328] But at the same time, it creates people pleasing.

[329] Yes.

[330] And suppression.

[331] The anger becomes suppressed.

[332] I was going to say the word suppression.

[333] So the anger becomes suppressed and it looks like people pleasing on the surface.

[334] Yes.

[335] Is that out of nowhere?

[336] It's like the volcano coming over the top and then.

[337] Yeah, those layers.

[338] Yeah, yeah.

[339] And there was a lot of that where it's like you can be passive, aggressive and it's i i feel like it sounds like a contradiction to be a people pleaser but then to have the volcano can erupt yeah yeah i know i know it sounds well but it makes sense it makes sense yeah you're suppressing so much stuff and you're not saying that and that's where the big thing is in music i was also i felt suppressed so it was like can i go can i find can i stop suppressing that as well because i was doing it musically where i was in i was in this kind of pop realm and i was like no but want them to hear all the layers of me and I think euphoria was the like first time I felt people actually heard what was going on on my hard drive for real for real and and then with it connecting I was like oh they get it like but but I was like it took so long for me to be able to try and share it and it took for somebody else to go give me your hard drive I'm going to put this all in my I'm going to put all of this stuff in my show and I want you to make new stuff for my show for them for me to not suppress it because I it was like I'm going to do it for you I mean you mentioned panic attacks yeah yeah something fun told me about from her lost hair everything lost hair yeah had like I had clumps of hair falling out it was mad like it was like I got to there and my wife was a big like part of supporting that because she um yeah she just was like she could see it all happening um and funny enough i couldn't fight for her at the time as well like um like she could see it all happening she was like this is not the way business should be done shouldn't be treated this way and and a lot of the people that were around me uh made her like the monster she became the because she was one with the boundaries yes that's right and so you know like um have you ever seen spinal tap no no okay but then i i kind of i call it the spinal tap moment where the missis becomes a manager and she wasn't managing me she wasn't even trying to she hates the music industry, but she wanted to be like, I want to protect this guy's sanity and everyone else around me was like, we've got a gig for flipping a hundred and certain grand, what do you mean?

[340] Like, why are you not going to do this show?

[341] And it's like, yeah, yeah, no, I know you're feeling tired.

[342] You're feeling, oh, you're feeling a bit emotional.

[343] Okay, okay, don't worry, man, don't worry.

[344] Like, look at what he's doing.

[345] He's doing all this work and comparisons and all this stuff and so there was a lot of manipulation and she was seeing it and I think they kind of didn't like that so she got intensely like kind of yeah but also then she became the martyr like the she became the there was a witch hunt and it kind of felt like it was directed at her and I wasn't strong enough to support her in that time if you get I mean like I was I was still too you were taking the wrong side I was accommodating no I wasn't even taking sides it was like no no It's because of this and...

[346] Okay, so you were just...

[347] Okay.

[348] I'm supposed to have it together, but I don't have it together, but like, no, I don't think they meant that and I didn't hear the stuff that was going on, but when I heard what was going on, I was like, oh shit, this is crazy.

[349] Have you ever spoke to her about that?

[350] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[351] That's what built, strengthen our relationship was that I said to, I apologize to her, and I think a lot of people don't notice how strong and powerful women are beside people that are in the public eye or, like, in the music industry or entertainment industry.

[352] It's like some of them, some of them are like, of course, wonky or whatever and are there for the wrong reasons.

[353] But the ones that are there for the right reasons sometimes get, they kind of, yeah, they don't get treated very well if you get, I mean, because it's like, you're the guy, you're the person with the guy.

[354] Yeah, they do have a big current.

[355] Yeah, and it's always that.

[356] It's like, you're the person with the guy, like, and so she just was like mad, supportive.

[357] and she introduced me to a shrink and got me like a lot of support like just to talk to someone and life coach because she worked around psychology she was just really like she put me on to a lot of things that I wouldn't have had if she wasn't around you know so it was like super important to have her women in that feminine they call it like the feminine energy yeah it's so that particular feminine energy is so lost upon men these days We talked about it earlier with this whole idea of like, be more of a man and don't express your emotions and be a tough guy and all this stuff.

[358] But then you look at the stats around mental and suicide and you see that it's just not working for men.

[359] Yeah, yeah.

[360] This over masculinity is just not, clearly not working.

[361] Women, and including in my life, have an ability to open us up to the other side.

[362] Yeah.

[363] Which is unbelievably healing.

[364] She's mad.

[365] She's just super smart and like I just think she was more aware.

[366] She had, like, she had a start that was pretty intense.

[367] And so it woke her up to a lot of things that I didn't.

[368] I wasn't aware of.

[369] And so she kind of schooled me on a lot of things that I think if she wasn't around, I would have lost it.

[370] I would have been like, where's lab?

[371] And then it would have been like, oh, right.

[372] He's on YouTube with like no teeth shouting at the camera.

[373] I don't know.

[374] Like some, you know how people go like way left.

[375] But yeah, like, I think if she wasn't around, I wouldn't be around, honestly.

[376] When you look back on the art that you created in that time, that phase of your life, the music, the hits, pass out, frisky, you know, all of that music you created, how did you feel about the music now?

[377] So if you walked in here and it was playing, how would you like, how would you, how would you say it?

[378] I laugh now.

[379] I'm like, oh, that's vibes, that's fun.

[380] Like, it's kind of like, it's fun.

[381] And sometimes I see the brilliance and I'm like, like, pass out still hits me. And I'm like, I can see the energy.

[382] And it was a moment.

[383] moment where I kind of pulled up my sleeves and I was like, I'm not doing this shit anymore.

[384] I'm not going to fake it.

[385] I'm going to make something I want to hear.

[386] And then it paid off.

[387] But I have moments like that and then I get scared again.

[388] Like it's like, pass out.

[389] And it takes me a lot to get there where I'm like, I'm going to do something.

[390] And then it's like, everyone's like, well done.

[391] Do more.

[392] And I'm like, I'm too scared.

[393] Like that can happen where I get too shook.

[394] It's just dealing with yourself.

[395] It's being, being aware of yourself.

[396] Like, I was saying, to be conscious of yourself or aware of your behaviour helps you create peace in your life and make choices in a moment that are going to support you in more ways than one if you get a man. More than just finance or...

[397] Yeah, and finance just becomes such a big thing in this industry, even...

[398] Status and finance.

[399] Being a father, finance is like, you run for it because you're taught that's the way a man's supposed to be.

[400] why did you go to eventually you go to L .A. at what, 24 years old or something?

[401] Why did I go to L .A., yeah.

[402] Was it 24 years old?

[403] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[404] You left the UK.

[405] I wanted to go to L .A. to get away from the UK.

[406] I'm not even just get away.

[407] I think that was going on internally.

[408] Like, I was like, I needed to do something different.

[409] This was after you released your first album.

[410] Yeah, and I was getting, I was taking, it took me like ages to do a second.

[411] And I was like, I don't know, I was just in my head about it.

[412] And so I went to L .A. to go and just, just be, somewhere different tried working with some other writers and like maybe uh kind of get new fresh energy you know i was getting in my head about it yeah you that second album so you released the first album yeah they always call it the difficult second album that's what they call the second album because it's like you had a moment and then it's like oh i got to do that again it's like that was on accident and it is always on accident it's like nothing um like you can paint anything by numbers but you can never, even in business, you can't recreate exactly the same thing unless it was supposed to happen.

[413] Because the world's changed as well.

[414] Yeah, that's it.

[415] Yeah, yeah.

[416] So it's like, yeah, like we're even in this industry now, like me and my team have been talking about it, but it's like we're in a whole new world.

[417] Most records are sold online, like heavily.

[418] TikTok.

[419] Like TikTok, that's it.

[420] That's how you sell records.

[421] And so to come into that and go, how do I find myself amongst this without losing my authenticity like what do you do like you know like and so then it kind of goes back to a lot of the things that have happened where it's like don't be that guy don't don't be that guy and just like keep up appearances find your way find the way of saying it in the way that means something to you know I'm really can you said because I sat with Lewis Capaldi and he said to me I'm shitting it his second album's coming out yeah he was like I'm shitting And he told me about the procrastination, the doubt, that first album banged, this one did a billion streams.

[422] He was like, I'm shitting it.

[423] Because of the expectation, I genuinely, I get it.

[424] Like, not that I would have ever been it, but I can understand how.

[425] Yeah, but in any business, it's like that.

[426] Yeah, it's like, we smashed it and, um, yeah, it's...

[427] Do it again.

[428] Yeah, it's like, do it again.

[429] Give me another one of those.

[430] When artists and when people generally make that move and they make, they make their way out to America, they become like a small fish in a big pond in many respects like people aren't stopping you in the street like they are here oh that was sick just like I remember going to the Grammys and I was like standing next to John Legend and who else was there there was massive artists yeah worldwide success massive records and I came to standing and my publishers put me in there and the cameramen just that they were taking bit John John stand there what's the Chrissy Chris's dad And then I came in And it was just like this They dropped the cameras And then the guy was like this That was like oh shit But do you know what You know when you're talking about losing Or not getting the reaction you wanted It was the best reaction for me I loved it It was like They don't even give a shit I can go be that guy again I can go be the guy That was that was Yes there was no expectation so I was in this environment where there's no expectation and then it was like now I can make me now I can go and make who I am and I was in an environment and when I'm talking racially the reason why I'm talking racially is because I felt pulled by these two races in this country sonically and then when I was over there there was none there was none like Lab you need to be hood go do another this lab we need more pop music you need to be a bit more a regional connect with the radio more do more simon cow music and it was that there was a pull between me like and i felt like i don't belong anywhere like because i like both and i find i can see myself in both but um there's always somebody that doesn't like it and that's what um kept and affecting me was that there's always someone that doesn't like what i'm doing and so i kind of became comfortable with that feeling of being like yes someone's not going to like this like and and if you're people pleaser that's going to make you procrastinate yeah yeah 100 % but then I'm like I kind of fell in love of it in LA where it was just like that guy doing that it was just like I don't know who this guy is don't care and then I had to like work on my way up but in a way that was more pure where it was like I'm just going to do what I love and I was working with people over there that just kind of like it shed it pulled away all of the the kind of mess that that kind of created this thing in my head, you know, about creativity.

[431] And that's like kind of a process of like reinvention, right?

[432] You're kind of reinventing yourself from, from, again, because the expectation is gone?

[433] No, not reinventing.

[434] Realising.

[435] Realising.

[436] Because reinvention is trying to get somewhere.

[437] Realising is actually going, this is who I am.

[438] Like, peel away the onion.

[439] Like, what's underneath?

[440] And it's like in that, for me, that's, that's the most.

[441] important thing in my career, the most important thing in my existence is to go, what's the rawest form of lab of my person, of my existence?

[442] What's the rawest form of me, even without this body?

[443] Like, what's the soul?

[444] What's my centre are saying?

[445] What is that?

[446] What do you mean?

[447] What is the centre?

[448] Who is Lab?

[449] If what's the purest form, if I peel back all those layers on that onion, what is at the core of lab?

[450] It's a difficult question.

[451] One.

[452] that I'd struggle to answer.

[453] No, I call it calling your tears.

[454] Yeah.

[455] So sometimes when I sing, I call this, calling your tears.

[456] Like, it's like, I want to hear the fucking center of you as well.

[457] I give you the center of me and I want to hear the center of you.

[458] And even bummy notes, whatever the fuck is coming out.

[459] It's like, can I, can I speak to you beyond your, like, oh, I have this thing and I've got money and a thing.

[460] Well, who's the guy?

[461] And I'm like, if I can sing and.

[462] do this to you and you see you and and we both see uh beyond our flesh beyond the things that bind us on earth um that shit for me is like that's what i want to see that's what that's what i'm always trying to get to not not what you were taught when you were five not my mask you know what i mean not what was was given to you or you were raised into like it's like what's what does your soul want what is like what's your soul song as well and so like when i'm singing i'm like like for me um frequency has is is a language as well like music of course yeah like hearing a melody you can you can hear a feeling from it you can hear something saying something to you that's why we listen to music we're like it speaks to me and i'm like uh can i can i can i actually truthfully speak to you beyond the bullshit and usually frequency is one of our most powerful languages like literally everything is by by vibration like everything on earth is vibrating that's how like and that's how we can identify a lot of things you can feel energy if you get I mean so for me I'm like getting to the core of that is like the most exciting thing for me every time I go into the studio I want to be there, but I'm fighting to get away from needing to police.

[463] And that's, that clouds my mission all the time.

[464] Still today?

[465] Yeah, 100%.

[466] Without that.

[467] But, but it's not as loud as it used to be.

[468] You got music coming out soon.

[469] Yeah.

[470] What was, what's the process been like making this, this new body evolved?

[471] It's fun.

[472] Yeah.

[473] It was fun.

[474] fast um as i worked with a band my band lSD me and c r and diplo have a band and in that in working with c i kind of learned how to let go a bit and um when i went to go write my album after the long album the long number two um i just kind of was like yeah let's just do just do something just do it let it go don't think about it i did think i did end up thinking about it a little later on because I've had the album for a while but um it was I just was like I enjoy these melodies I enjoy what I'm doing I'm gonna leave it there and I'm uh alongside euphoria it was like um it kind of a lot of these things were teaching me to do that like come out of that the pleasing and just go what are you hearing write what you hear from the sky and that's it and just leave it there so that's what I did with this record as well how much is this record a reflection of how you're feeling and where you are in your mind and your psychology how much of that is reflected through the music and what you've created I believe that this record is one of the steps towards um me being naked like I'm I don't think I'm as naked as I want to be yet but but um I I believe that it's getting me there and like even with this album was dedicated to my misses um a lot of the songs on the album were dedicated to to my missus because like i was talking about where she stood up for me and supported me uh through the music through like my experiences um uh i kind of wanted to i turned our relationship in the music industry into a um like two lovers uh bonnie and clide riding through the cosmos so so literally it's like uh natural born killers in space that's what the whole album was And that was my like, um, uh, inspiration for the record is that it's all love songs, but, um, all of the love songs are me taking photos of moments with my, with my wife and things we've been through together.

[475] Um, and so I didn't even write, I didn't write in a like way where it was like, I'm going to say, oh, a couple of weeks ago on Saturday when this happened.

[476] No, it's not that.

[477] It's more, it's more, um, it's more like, um, it's more, um, loosely based on, on, on, like, those moments.

[478] And every song has, like, is me, um, amplifying, like, uh, like, uh, like little moments that me and my wife have had.

[479] Where do you get, where, like, sort of physically do you, does moat, does your inspiration show up?

[480] Everything is a song, bro.

[481] Like, everything.

[482] In here, in the streets, in that, in the gym.

[483] This is a song, this is a song, I wait for you.

[484] This bottle sitting here.

[485] And if you imagine that everything on earth is alive, this bottle was made just to sit here to wait to be poured into my cup.

[486] So that's a song.

[487] I wait for you.

[488] I wait at your beck and call whenever you need me. And it's like I'm turning this bottle into a person and I'm like, oh, don't you know how long I've needed to be wanted?

[489] Or don't you know I have my own things or things that I want from my life.

[490] self if you get i mean so every every like little thing like um can be like like turned into or dramatized into a song you know like does it make sense i'll wait for you and i'll nutritionally complete yeah but it is that i'll complete you yeah yeah yeah like i'm i'm it's like i'm i'll be your servant it's like um um but like when is my moment like oh you can just find things in it like there's just one thing sitting there and like start to peel the onion of okay what would it feel like if I just had to sit there like I was created and I just had to sit there to replenish somebody's health like have you always thought like that because that's quite an abstract way to think like the metaphor or the symbolism of that bottle is doing that a lot of people would say oh that's a you know a drink yeah yeah that's everything and have you cultivated yourself to think such a way over time where you've lent into that?

[491] Or is that something that you've just always had as a...

[492] No, that's it.

[493] That's it for me. Like with everything, it's like because I guess, like you're saying, with growing up, you're going, how do people see the world?

[494] And you try to see the world through other people's eyes, especially with, when you grow up with, like, either traumas or like an intense home, you learn to kind of observe a lot.

[495] And so, like, in observation, you go into like um storytelling bro like it's like layers and layers of storytelling like um yeah so i just see every every song even sounds for me have colors sounds for me have pictures um so i always have an idea usually what scares the idea of the way is people pleasing honestly like i i know i i know what my idea is but it's like learning how to in a business um especially that we go from writing in our bedrooms to becoming CEOs of companies without knowing it.

[496] You have to learn how to run your business and get your business to articulate what you want to say without being frightened of judgment.

[497] I'm lab that just got signed to Psycho.

[498] Okay.

[499] Day one of Psycho, I get to meet you here now and I get to come and ask you for advice.

[500] I'm you on that day that you sign with Psycho.

[501] What advice do you give me?

[502] To live your life.

[503] Whatever is supposed to be.

[504] And I don't, I won't take back anything this happened honestly like because um i believe that um everything happens to build you and i wouldn't have learned the things i've learned in order to become who i am today so all my challenges are turning me into who i'm supposed to be so do you think if you told me yeah do you think if you'd given me advice so i'm you know when you signed that deal with psycho do you think if you'd given me the advice i would have listened no no no no i wouldn't have listened to me i would have been like i'll be like yeah man people love my music let's go like because you just don't know in it you don't know what you're going to experience um yeah so i would i would i would say go and experience what you need to experience because like you're going to head to your to your north in whatever way you can and and some people don't ever find their north because they don't learn to go okay um let me take a look at myself you know like i think that's the my dad did that where he just he wasn't able to be vulnerable enough to go okay maybe this or maybe like could I change this or actually I'm not happy here you know and so I feel like if you can do that in your life I don't think anything's wrong with it I think you'll you'll be able to find your north like by by being able to observe yourself what are your goals now I imagine to make the cosmic opera okay boy it's mad no tell me that's your goal I want to hear it Oh, yeah, yeah, I do.

[505] I want to make an opera.

[506] You want to make an opera?

[507] Yeah, yeah.

[508] I want to write an opera.

[509] I can hear the sounds.

[510] I can hear how it looks, feels.

[511] And, yeah, I just, I want to, I want to, like, make, like, I want to do things with choirs that nobody's done.

[512] I can hear all these things that I'm like, nobody's done this.

[513] I'm going to go do it.

[514] Like, literally I'm there.

[515] Do you know, we did this podcast live with a live group.

[516] gospel choir.

[517] We toured it up and down the country.

[518] Oh, really?

[519] Man, the house gospel choir?

[520] Yeah, yeah.

[521] That's my sister's quiet.

[522] Oh, really?

[523] My sister was in that choir.

[524] Yeah, yeah.

[525] I'm Cheryl.

[526] She used to work with, um, uh, what's it?

[527] The House of making it.

[528] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[529] Yeah, it was crazy.

[530] So we had this like 30, 40 person choir, the band.

[531] Love it.

[532] And it's this mixture between like the visual, so the video would come in and it would like crackle from people on this podcast.

[533] Yeah.

[534] And then you'd have me with spoken words.

[535] And then the choir would come in and like, say the message in music, if that makes sense.

[536] Yeah, yeah.

[537] So I might be talking about.

[538] So I might be talking about.

[539] the struggle I had with like the one self -doubt and then the other young ambitious kid that knew he wanted to be a millionaire because he was insecure whatever yeah and on one hand you've got wait till I get my money and then you've got Niles Barkley and I think you're crazy and it was that kind of like like music and stuff yeah bro you're doing it man that's exactly it's not doing it's not but it is for me you get afraid now ever uh afraid of I'm just saying oh yeah I mean did you feel Do you feel maybe used to your fears now?

[540] So like stepping out on stage at the London Pladium.

[541] We opened up at the London Pladium and stepping out on stage at London Pladium never having done this before in front of people and knowing that they'd bought tickets without having any idea what they've bought tickets to.

[542] They're expecting a live podcast.

[543] So they're expecting this on stage.

[544] Okay.

[545] And then there's quiet, you know, there was a moment of that where you've just got to be at peace with the uncertainty.

[546] Okay, yeah.

[547] And all the great things come from being at peace with the uncertainty.

[548] Yeah.

[549] You know?

[550] Do you feel like maybe your peace with the uncertainty?

[551] certainty comes from your parents?

[552] Yes.

[553] So I would say my parents were so absent from my life.

[554] Like my mom and dad were like, my mom was never in when I got home and she was never in when I woke up.

[555] So I got to play.

[556] Yeah, okay.

[557] Kind of experiment, if you know what I mean?

[558] That makes so much.

[559] So then you start building evidence and yourself, like, well, I try this thing and it kind of works.

[560] Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[561] You kind of never unlearn that lesson.

[562] You never, once you've seen behind that curtain that you can just try stuff.

[563] Yes.

[564] And are you okay with the, like, if it bombed, would you be okay?

[565] the honest answer So if it bombed, bombed No, because No, no, no No, because it's crazy Because I remember, I remember, you know The feedback we got is like Nothing I've ever got my crib But you get that one message Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah That goes, that was fucking weird And I'm thinking about it The next night before I go out I'm thinking that one person said it was fucking weird Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel you I feel you, I feel like, everyone's This is brilliant, I loved it Yeah, you're just like that one guy Yeah, I feel you because a search for validation can be a real motivator in your life it can force you to like go out there and do great stuff but at the same time it also makes you really susceptible to criticism yeah yeah no it does it drives you but it makes it scares you know it's like but if you like that's what I love about hip -hop I was watching hip -hop evolution and those of the guys on there they kind of were just like we're already the scumbags of the earth to this country like there's nothing to lose and I kind of when I watch it I'm just like I love the like, they just go and do anything because it was just like, well, like, I have one out on a record on the album called Only Way Is Up, yeah?

[566] And I say, the only way is up, what's it?

[567] It was like, basically like, yeah, the only way is up.

[568] Like, it's like, literally, if you're at the pit of the bottom, it's like, there's nothing else to do.

[569] So it's just like, they were just like, I'm going for, I'm taking it all.

[570] And that's where hip hop turned into, well, it's like a massive industry now.

[571] Like, and it wasn't.

[572] It started from a guy just being on like turntables, you know?

[573] So sometimes I get inspired by seeing that.

[574] When your next project comes out, say every song on the album gets a trillion views.

[575] It's the first album ever to get a trillion views on every record, right?

[576] Next time you see me, I'm going to be like, yeah, what's going on?

[577] Well, no, I probably won't say if you get a trillion views.

[578] Why are you speaking like that, though?

[579] No, what do you mean?

[580] How am I speaking?

[581] Just with glasses and your entourage and your tinted car and shit.

[582] Yeah, that's what.

[583] Lab doesn't want to talk right now.

[584] Why are you speaking about yourself in the first person?

[585] Are you scared of that?

[586] What, of becoming a digger?

[587] No, no, no, no. That too, but like, if you're next up, you get a trillion views on every record, here comes expectation again.

[588] Suddenly you've got something to lose again.

[589] No, burn it down every time.

[590] You're burning down.

[591] You'll move to another one.

[592] Burn it down.

[593] Just burn down the house.

[594] Like, and it's so beautiful to like to be free of expectation of your own and of your own expectation as well for me it's like you're like Forrest Gump man you could do anything like with that when you're free from and free funny my son this is his favourite song right now free from desire but anyway but when you are free from desire in terms of like the need for a reception or the need for validation it's like if you actually put that down if you said I don't need validation you're like you're just going to go do anything bro like you'll just go ham you know and some people are born like kind of have that like it's just in them where they're just like well maybe they're scared but they don't show it and they're just able to just move on really fast and they have insane resilience and I'm like if I had that like what would I've done what would I've done and I'm not a person to go work to the past but I'm like like how free would it be and how freeing would it be if you could just go cool that didn't work this goal like and not even that didn't work just I'm going to do what I'm here to do which is make music do you see any of your peers or anyone in the industry it's funny I was thinking of Kanye West I mean controversial figure yeah yeah he seems to not give a fuck about he really doesn't I've worked with him yeah he's um and it was inspiring and and that's you know what even with Kanye he's mad controversial mad It's, yeah, it's a lot, but I guess he's intense for the world, but being in his creative environment was one of the most inspiring I've had.

[595] And I wasn't a Kanye fan.

[596] Like, I wasn't like, oh, I've listened to all your albums, I know every song.

[597] Like, I literally was put with Kanye through a manager, and they were like, Lab's fucking next hottest artist, do you want to work with him?

[598] And then I got a yes, and then I went into the camp.

[599] So I started working with all these amazing musicians and producers and it was just like, it feels like what I love, which is hear it, do it.

[600] It's got nothing on the periphery affects the division of what he's headed for, especially in that environment.

[601] Sometimes maybe, I don't know, personally when he's at home on his own, it's affected, but it was just the vibe in there, like it felt like true creativity um but like i can't say anything about yeah like i don't know what mission is on like yeah that's funny because i've had dame dash here like a week ago and dame said jz's all about the money canya's what about the art yeah and that seems to be what's reflected from what you see from the outside yeah that makes sense yeah yeah going back so i asked you a question earlier about your goal yeah and you said about the cosmic orchestra yeah that that's a that's i guess that's a goal is there like a bigger a mission you're on or is it i i think I've simplified my desires and it's like, I just want to be a tap.

[602] I want to be a tap.

[603] And it sounds very, it sounds very wispy.

[604] But like to be a tap for the universe and what I mean by the universe is that.

[605] I personally believe that we are all connected to a source.

[606] And if we're all connected to that source, everyone has their, everyone's a kaleidoscope.

[607] And when this source shines through our kaleidoscopes, you see these unique, beautiful things.

[608] But we have to make our kaleidoscope as pure as possible, meaning to get out of our own ways to be the kaleidoscope that was supposed to be.

[609] And for me, I feel like I'm seeing some of your kaleidoscope and you made a decision to change your world or to change your maybe facade that you had at the time to become who you need to be and you clean the window, you know?

[610] And so for me, I'm like, if I can clean my window and shine light as purely as possible and do some shit that I didn't even know I could do, for me, that's a job well done, honestly, like in all truth.

[611] But the only thing that gets in the way is fair, self -doubt.

[612] And all the stuff that, like, the industry needing to make money, like, needed to be validated, it gets in the way of like, oh shit, I'm supposed to be clean in the window.

[613] That's what I keep doing.

[614] I'll keep going back to like, oh, okay, sorry, I forgot.

[615] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[616] Can I clean?

[617] So that's what I want to do, clean windows.

[618] It's a really interesting analogy about being your most authentic self.

[619] Yeah, that's it for me. But it's easier said than done.

[620] We're always saying it online and, oh, I want to speak my truth.

[621] I'm like, that stuff doesn't mean anything to me. It's just to purely, and you know when you're lying to yourself, the only person that knows you're lying to you is you.

[622] And sometimes you don't know when you're lying to yourself if you're not looking properly.

[623] But when you look, when you truly look, you're like, okay, I'm lying.

[624] And so for me, cleaning the window is knowing when I'm lying.

[625] And then being like, okay, cool, let's go.

[626] Are we going back to truth?

[627] Yes, let's do it.

[628] I mean, much of the reason why, you know, I've always resonated with your music and I view it as art, you know, even I was listening to it all again today, going through the albums, going through some of your new stuff, is because you have that, it's so clearly comes from, it feels like it comes from a very authentic place.

[629] Yeah, yeah.

[630] Like you're not, I've not heard these sounds before.

[631] You know what I mean?

[632] That's what I get.

[633] Even when I go to, when I listen to pass out again, I was like, there's so many layers to this that, like, There's some like garagey, grimy stuff.

[634] And then you've got the little Afro, you know, it's all in there.

[635] Yeah, yeah.

[636] And this is someone.

[637] That's how I, you know, when you ask me what happens when I listen back, I'm like, oh, is that how I look?

[638] It's like, you're like, oh, like, because there's self -doubt is so heavy sometimes that you don't even know how you look.

[639] And it's like, somebody could be like, you're so beautiful.

[640] And you're like, I'm seeing warts.

[641] I'm seeing weird ships.

[642] And then your idea of.

[643] yourself so distorted.

[644] So when I listen back to old stuff, sometimes I'm like, it's like, well done, kids.

[645] I'm like, man, like, it feels like you've got your own identity.

[646] And I'm like, I almost end up saying to that 24 year old, like, I'm like, bro, I'm proud of you.

[647] Like, like, that's so fun.

[648] Like, I feel you.

[649] Like, and I didn't at the time.

[650] At the time, I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, you know?

[651] So it's nice to kind of observe from a distance and be like, grandfather going, well done.

[652] well than me are you happy now?

[653] Am I happy now?

[654] Yes, I definitely happy as a father that changes your life massively so I think yeah I think I'm super happy yeah like I like to think about that when someone asks me Yeah, because it's easy to just go Yeah, how are you?

[655] Yeah, I'm great man Yeah, yeah And it's so difficult and some people think it's a shitty question because first you've got to define what happy means and happy is a mood and it's like you know I'm sad happy it's a kind of a visceral mood maybe you should ask me am my content yeah and I am fulfilled or something yeah yeah I'm content I think with fulfillment I'm I'm getting there no I'm I'm cleaning the window all the time so it's like realizing it's returning back to fulfillment if that makes sense if so if that fulfillment was a recipe consisting of different ingredients and different quantities yeah right so you need one egg If you have two eggs, the recipe goes off.

[656] It's all about, you know, with recipes, it's all about balance and constructing the ingredients you need to create the perfect dish.

[657] If your fulfilment is a recipe list, is there anything missing off that that you believe now would make you, would make that recipe perfect.

[658] For me, it's been balance.

[659] It's just workaholic, that's kind of like an addiction that I am because of early stuff.

[660] Yep, same, yeah.

[661] So trying to make sure I'm investing in my romantic relationships, my friendships, so I can feel more.

[662] Same with my kids and my family.

[663] like yeah that balance but fulfillment is for me is um desiring nothing contributing everything that's how i feel like and it's like and maybe the only one desire is to to remain um present enough to be able to receive uh from what i'm contributing to does that make sense perfect sense or else you're not going to be there to hear it you're going to be in the future i won't even enjoy it i won't even yeah my kid would be smart at me and I'm like looking over their heads like yeah how do I get more how do I get a trillion views yeah yeah yeah are you got better at that being present to it to experience the joy of life bro it's the best when you're present with your kids it's the best like you learn so much stuff my kid said like she loves the moon and she asked me does moonstones fall from the moon and she said they give me the moon gives me moon stones all the time and she like um shall we give them back and i was like i was like no no i think it was given to you as a present but just like hearing stuff like for me it's like it's like magic like it's just hearing a magical mind stay and it's like i'm still uh um appreciate in the world in this magical way when when we make it about a trillion views you know like same with my son as well just he smells flowers and like he he really like he if he sees a flower he points at and and he wants to really feel it and connect with it and enjoy it and then he'll go around giving everyone a flower and saying smell it for yourself.

[664] But seeing that for me is like he made something that I ignore because I'm just so used to it like super magical.

[665] Yeah, beautiful.

[666] And it's, yeah, I was thinking about my dog there as well, how he simplified my life.

[667] Just like, I used to say like, I'd come home.

[668] from like the busy day all these problems and the dog is there just fucking around with this Lucas A bottle having the time of his life and he's like fucking chasing me dad he's like bringing it close and taking it and I'm like you don't understand how simple well it's for fact I've over complicated the world he understands how simple and wonderful it is but I've lost sight of that with my with my wisdom or with my experience we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest they don't know who they're asking it for they just write it in this diary this guest is handwriting challenged so give me a second my teacher used to call it chicken scratches oh yeah looks it looks a bit this looks like chicken scratches okay what are you not saying yes to in your life that demands to be said what am I not saying yes to that demands to be said yeah I think I think what they mean is like what are you not saying yes to that demands a yes yes yes nothing saying yes to all the stuff i want to say yes to right is there anything inside you that's that's asking you to like step into it and accept it that you're not saying yes to okay i no no i okay so if we're going from there um um um i think accepting what is um and and and and And, yeah, just accepting what is, like, not getting dragged into what it could be.

[669] And when you accept what it is, you're like, this is sick.

[670] Like, you just fall in love of it because you're appreciating it for what it is, you know?

[671] So I think it's that constantly remembering that.

[672] But that's a yes for the rest of your life.

[673] Lab, thank you so much for this conversation.

[674] Thank you for being here.

[675] You are a musical genius.

[676] I respect, bro, I appreciate that.

[677] No, you are, because I can't really think of artists that have come out of the UK.

[678] I've come out of fucking Hackney that have the, like, the creative diversity that you have.

[679] We don't have, like, honestly, the only other person I think of is, I'm like, Kanye, you know, and I'm a big, you know, you know.

[680] Do you know what I mean?

[681] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel you, yeah.

[682] Where I believe you could, I believe with that sort of creative palette and the diversity of your creativity and where you see inspiration in a fucking heel bottle.

[683] which is nutritionally complete hashtag ad in the table is really genius.

[684] It's a real special genius.

[685] And with that comes a lot of challenge as we see with Kanye as well.

[686] But it's a real special genius that I think, as you say, if the windows can remain clean, bro, that's it for me. It's going to serve the world in a remarkable way as it has done already for you in your life.

[687] And, you know, the things you've done with movies, the music and you talk to me about this opera.

[688] I'll see and believe at all.

[689] And I can't wait.

[690] Yeah.

[691] Once I got it somewhere, you've got to come and listen.

[692] Please.

[693] And you can be like, Lab, this is the worst music I better know it.

[694] Listen, I'll clean the windows, I don't care.

[695] Let me, I'll help you clean the windows so we can get this cosmic orchestra going.

[696] Oh, man, I'm down.

[697] I'm done.

[698] I would love for you to hear it.

[699] But yeah, like, that's, I'm definitely excited about this.

[700] I appreciate you.

[701] So it's another to meet you and I can't wait to see this next project and all the projects that you bring to the world in the future.

[702] Thank you so much.