Edward Norton Returns

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard, joined by Mr. Mouse.

[2] Hello there.

[3] Hello.

[4] Boy, are we knock, knock, knocking on the door.

[5] Christmas mouse.

[6] Yeah.

[7] Oh, are you a Christmas mouse now?

[8] Today.

[9] The Christmas mouse, she is involved in a lot of the standard literature for Christmas.

[10] I think so.

[11] So sometimes not even a mouse.

[12] Yeah.

[13] What's that one?

[14] It was the night before Christmas.

[15] And all through the house.

[16] Not a creature was stirring.

[17] Not even a mouse.

[18] Not even miniature mouse.

[19] I'm going to add that.

[20] Old friend on today, returning guest in Monica's favorite movie of recent.

[21] That's right, Glass Onion.

[22] I loved it too.

[23] You hadn't seen it when we interviewed Edward.

[24] Yeah, because you got a special link.

[25] Right.

[26] And you refused to watch it with me. You didn't invite me. That's how I remember it going down.

[27] Yes, he's in a new movie called Glass Onion, a Knife.

[28] out mystery.

[29] Monica saw it in the movie theater and Monica just hit people.

[30] I loved it.

[31] I loved it.

[32] It's a high recommend.

[33] I think it reflects a lot of interesting societal happenings right now.

[34] Yes.

[35] It skewers some of our most popular deities.

[36] And the people who surround them.

[37] The sycophants.

[38] The hangers on.

[39] It's a good movie.

[40] It's a good one.

[41] Edward Norton is a man. He's a man among men.

[42] He flies airplanes we didn't even talk about that but he's a damn good pilot anywho he's also an actor he's also a director he's been in tons of our favorite movies fight club america history x primal fear birdman motherless bergling keep naming him you know him he doesn't act enough we get in this i attack him on several fronts trying to get him to just fucking do it more right we'd love to see more of edward norton let's listen to him now wondering plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[43] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[44] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[45] It's been a minute since you were here, right?

[46] Three years ago, I just was looking at the thing.

[47] Three years and three...

[48] Days?

[49] How many hours?

[50] I know.

[51] It was like October 28th, so...

[52] Wow.

[53] Pretty close to three years, three weeks.

[54] Three plus three.

[55] You did something that I think no other guests did, and it'd be great to get real -time feedback.

[56] So you were early.

[57] Ask you questions about yourself.

[58] Oh, God, what, I love that.

[59] No, you were early because you had dropped your kid.

[60] Kids?

[61] Only Atlas goes to that school?

[62] No, they both do.

[63] Oh, they both do.

[64] Okay, perfect.

[65] So you dropped your kids off, and then you're already on the side of town, so you came over, and you hung out in the pool house.

[66] Now, no one's been there.

[67] Just we have it, and we decorated it.

[68] I don't think anyone's ever sat in it.

[69] I loved it.

[70] Okay, good.

[71] I was immediately at home.

[72] I made a little plaque that says the Norton Suite.

[73] Oh, perfect.

[74] It doesn't mean that I only stay there.

[75] I think it's nice if when people come.

[76] Yeah, it's got a little bit of history.

[77] You christened it.

[78] If you'd like, you can go hang out in the Norton Suite.

[79] You've definitely been to Lakeinta out in Palm Springs, right?

[80] Not the chain Lakeinta.

[81] I know the area you mean.

[82] Okay.

[83] There's a Frank Capra suite there.

[84] Like three amazing movies were written there.

[85] Oh, really?

[86] Yes.

[87] Yes.

[88] I love that.

[89] Wow.

[90] It's so exciting.

[91] I used to go there to write.

[92] Yeah, you're a hotel writer.

[93] I sure am.

[94] Where did you write chips?

[95] You wrote it out in like Westlake or something, right?

[96] Yeah, so I used to go to Lakeena.

[97] It's a real commitment, you know.

[98] It's Palm Springs.

[99] And then once we had kids, I had to be more reachable.

[100] So yes, I would go to the Four Seasons in Westlake.

[101] I'm glad I remembered that right.

[102] That's incredible.

[103] Have you been to that hotel?

[104] No. It's very confusing.

[105] Is the Four Seasons in Westlake a little like the Four Seasons Landscaping Company that Giuliani did his thing in front of?

[106] Is it Four Seasons with an Asterix?

[107] No, it's definitely a very nice hotel.

[108] It's just interesting in the notion of going to Westlake on vacation to a Four Seasons.

[109] They're independently owned, though, right?

[110] Exactly.

[111] Four Seasons, you probably already know this.

[112] They don't own any properties.

[113] They're just a management company.

[114] Yeah, no. Many more things are like that than people realize Nobu is like that.

[115] It is?

[116] Yeah, Larry Ellison owns the Nobu Malibu.

[117] You know, it's a rapper.

[118] Oh, explain that more.

[119] It's the same as Four Seasons, which I think is owned by like the Sultan of Brunei or something.

[120] Oh, okay.

[121] I'm saying that, don't quote me on that, but many Four Seasons are owned by an underlying equity owner.

[122] And Four Seasons is the management group that runs it for a percentage.

[123] Right.

[124] What do you think about that as a business model management?

[125] That seems crazy to me that that can be successful.

[126] Once I heard the Four Seasons thing, I was like, what a bizarre interesting business.

[127] model.

[128] If you think about it, it's like franchising, really, isn't it?

[129] You're really, you're bringing the brand.

[130] You're bringing the management capability.

[131] But what it lets you do is not need all the capital to scale.

[132] Someone else is bringing the underlying capital that's needed to build one of these things.

[133] Yeah, I guess I never thought of McDonald's and four seasons being similar, but I guess they are.

[134] The lower end of it, we would call franchising, the upper end of it, we just call like a management group, right?

[135] Yeah.

[136] A friend of mine, a long -time ally in conservation work, who over many years, even though he's one of the greatest software investors in history and very wealthy, we were both kind of commiserating and sighing over the fact that when you're younger and you do any kind of mission -driven work, you feel really good about it, right?

[137] And you're like, oh, this is great.

[138] I think over many decades of doing some of that kind of stuff, you can get to this more mature feeling where you realize this is great, but we might be building castles in the sand.

[139] because when everything's done with philanthropic underwriting, you're creating a dependency and you're creating something that maybe can't survive disruption to its donor base or whatever.

[140] And I think one of the most interesting things going on, certainly in global conservation, is this idea of understanding the economic value of natural resource assets, water, air, ecosystems, biodiversity, all of it, right?

[141] Really understanding what's its economic value, within the framework of our societies and our economies and pricing it accurately internal to our economic system instead of saying, oh, well, those things are free so businesses don't have to pay for them, and pollution just gets paid for by other people not within our business model.

[142] The point of all that is simply we were like, God, you know, if we don't figure out ways that we use what we know about finance or development or anything to build things that are self -sustaining as opposed to needing donor checks, are we flattering ourselves that we're doing something important, but in fact we're doing it within the amount of time we can focus on it.

[143] And so we actually set up this development group in Kenya called Conservation Equity, and basically we're tapping exactly what you just happen to bring up, which is we're working with one of the really great brand management groups in luxury tourism.

[144] Oh, no kidding.

[145] We're bringing capital into being the owners under, you know, the discovery guys, the Discover land, development group.

[146] They do things like the Yellowstone Club and El Dorado down in Baja, right?

[147] There are brand management group.

[148] They'll be managing the properties.

[149] But we have built an entity, instead of taking donor capital as grants, we're using philanthropic capital to underwrite the ownership of these properties, getting that back to the donors.

[150] So instead of grants, they use it and it comes back to them, but we leave the long -term 100 % of the profits go to funding the stuff that we were funding with grants.

[151] We studied intensively over the last couple years exactly what you just highlighted, which is that we don't even have to ask them to do anything special.

[152] They do what they do well, like the Four Seasons or like Sixthenses resorts or Amman resorts, right?

[153] They just do what they do well, which is operated, but the actual kind of main economics of it, the profit of it normally flows out to, frankly, private equity investors, but in this case, we've set it up to be a long -term benefit court, basically.

[154] Is that the model of Singita?

[155] Unfortunately, no, that's a pure profiteer.

[156] Oh, okay, okay, okay.

[157] That's owned by a couple of billionaires.

[158] Yeah, Paul Tudor Jones.

[159] Is one of them, and now I think this Danish billionaire.

[160] But maybe I was swindled, but what was sold to me as the concept was, so Paul Tudor Jones used to go to this area in Grimetti Reserve, and he used to hunt there.

[161] And then he decided, how can I reduce the amount of hunting?

[162] So I'm going to buy all of the hunting permits.

[163] And then I'm going to build this resort in this thing.

[164] And then that'll compensate for the cost of all hunting permits, blah, blah, blah.

[165] It's a nice story.

[166] Okay.

[167] I really want to go to an Ammon.

[168] Whether ethically it's good or bad, I love Singita.

[169] Oh, my God.

[170] Product is great.

[171] By the way, let's just say something came out of that trip that you and Kristen sent to me and Shawna, which was the most hilarious music video.

[172] The Toto dance video.

[173] Why is that never seen the light of day?

[174] No, it's what it went crazy viral.

[175] Oh, it did?

[176] You know, it's really funny.

[177] Yes.

[178] We had shared it with a handful of friends.

[179] And then what happened was I was trying to get the rights to Rosanna.

[180] Rosanna.

[181] So David Pache wrote that song, Rosanna.

[182] And so I had to get on the phone with him.

[183] And he said, I feel like you're making fun of Toto.

[184] And I go, you can't imagine.

[185] Imagine the depth of love that I am, my wife, have for Toto.

[186] I'm going to send you this video.

[187] I feel like that'll tell you how I feel about Toto.

[188] So I get off the phone with him, I email.

[189] First time I ever shared it with a stranger, he wrote me back 10 minutes later.

[190] And he was like, I don't think I've liked this song this much since I wrote it.

[191] Not only can you use Rosanna, but I'm going to throw my side in.

[192] That's how persuasive that video was.

[193] And then I actually thought, if it gave that guy, the guy who wrote the song, that much joy, maybe I'll just post this.

[194] I don't have a big YouTube channel or anything.

[195] I didn't promote it or anything, but I just threw it up on YouTube.

[196] And then, yeah, it became a pretty viral thing.

[197] And the majority of it was shot there.

[198] And the funny part was is, Madard, I'll never forget him.

[199] He was our dude.

[200] We were there in the rainy season.

[201] So there's nobody there.

[202] All three resorts, and it was Kristen and I, period.

[203] So when we were out on a safari, it's just us and Madard.

[204] And we became close with him for 10 days.

[205] And poor Madard was tasked with most of the filming of that video.

[206] And truly not really understanding what the fuck we were doing.

[207] And that was before cinema mode on the iPhone.

[208] He made it look great.

[209] He was holding a camcorder because I also had the Canon 60D.

[210] Oh, no wonder it looked so good.

[211] Yeah, the Mardard stuff shot on like a camcorder.

[212] I couldn't really get him to use the 60D in the way I want.

[213] He had some ethics around him on his old school.

[214] Your moves were so good though.

[215] It does prompt an interesting question if I can query you on your own show.

[216] I would love it.

[217] For you guys, that idea that we just touched on of you start doing something off of an impulse and you kind of get this point where you're like if I don't take a step to the left and actually examine what my relationship to the thing is or how it's changed how the whole superstructure I've just changed or the DNA of it changed and adjust or think about what can I do with it that's different than what I was doing at the start it's not just that life gets boring but I also think you can miss the changes that are happening in a media form around you or the movement you're working in or whatever you know you guys really did this on your own you didn't like go out have your agency pitch you on this or anything.

[218] You did it because it's really authentic to you to chat with people about really interesting multidimensional subjects.

[219] But now you have so many conversational forms now flowing off of it.

[220] Have you ever thought you could have a whole sub -colum of conversation about people who are specifically doing social good?

[221] I feel like you'd be really good at dissecting and sticking a fork in.

[222] Is this really what it seems to be?

[223] Or what's a different way we could be doing something better than old models of philanthropy.

[224] Let's pressure test this.

[225] You're the perfect person to do this with.

[226] So first I'll just say, I'm just not that person.

[227] I'm married to one.

[228] I'm very much an individualist.

[229] I take care of the five people in my circle, and I'll die for them, and I give a lot of attention to them.

[230] I'm not a super extended ring of empathy human being.

[231] I'm just not.

[232] We talked to Adam Grant, and I'm like, I feel guilt over that.

[233] And he's like, no, no, there's three person.

[234] types.

[235] Like, this is very normal.

[236] People are born this where that for Kristen, she sees someone in Syria, and for her, that's like someone on our street.

[237] It's not for me. And I don't think it's because I'm a knit with.

[238] Something is just biochemically different.

[239] So first of all, I don't have a lot of interest in huge expanse.

[240] I'm like, you want to get sober.

[241] I'll meet you at your house.

[242] I'll hold your hand.

[243] I can do that.

[244] That is empathy, though.

[245] Right.

[246] But it's very confined to a small circle, right?

[247] That's my nature.

[248] Yeah, but that's just because it's been part of your own experience, too.

[249] Yes.

[250] I mean, look, it's the difference between the left and the right.

[251] Conservatives generally want to help someone in their neighborhood.

[252] And by the way, they do help more of their neighbors than liberals do.

[253] That's just their nature.

[254] Liberals are really into helping lots of people and having government institutions that will carry out that goal.

[255] But conservatives are much more likely to have a church group and they're going to help 12 different people.

[256] Both are good.

[257] I don't really like liberal and conservative.

[258] I think it's a very outmoded.

[259] I do too.

[260] You and I were in the hot tub recently, and we had a real...

[261] Leave it there.

[262] Don't give any context.

[263] Just let people wonder.

[264] It was not at a Four Seasons Managed Resort.

[265] It was in the backyard.

[266] But at any rate, that's just one thing, all right?

[267] I have a lack of interest in it, one.

[268] But beyond that, because we did dabble in this.

[269] Monaco had set up this really great thing that could have been a really great partnership.

[270] By all assessment, it would have been great.

[271] Ultimately, at the end, I was like, I love them.

[272] They're fantastic.

[273] It'd be a great opportunity for both of us.

[274] But the quintessential ingredient for me and anything I do has to be irreverence.

[275] I think you have a very well -developed inclination towards skepticism.

[276] I don't mean cynicism.

[277] Cisicism is very different.

[278] I know it's just words we're using.

[279] It's good you point that out.

[280] Explain the difference.

[281] I'll get myself tripped up.

[282] But I think as a cynic, as people disinclined to believe in the positive motive behind something.

[283] Or even disinclined to believe that there's a capacity for something to be what it's presenting itself.

[284] Yes.

[285] Also, maybe just a foundation of the world sucks and people suck.

[286] Yeah.

[287] I know there's probably an academic definition of cynicism rooted in the past that I'm not hitting correctly.

[288] But as a friend, I think of you as more like a very positive kind of skeptic.

[289] You stick a fork pretty hard in things.

[290] I think you use the word tactical a lot.

[291] You question no matter what the intention, whether tactically the thing is effective at getting toward the well -intentioned goal.

[292] Right, exactly.

[293] Even in our conversations, I find that process of pressure.

[294] testing ideas is really, really important for people, right?

[295] Well, can I just tell you, like, when we're in the hot tub, not to give too much away?

[296] We've already saunered.

[297] Just leave it there.

[298] No, no. No one has to know if anyone else was with us.

[299] The noodles have passed El Dente, right?

[300] You and I are already very limber by the time we get into the hot tub.

[301] And when you and I start, again, like you said, it's not even a debate.

[302] It's just like, I feel this way.

[303] I feel this way.

[304] I want to flatter you and saying, I'll even be thinking, I need to be much more on my game right now to present.

[305] opinion to you.

[306] You're a worthy opponent.

[307] You're very smart.

[308] You know about all these things I don't know about.

[309] So it's like, I'm trying to throw these things out there.

[310] I'm like, I don't think I have Posana the goods to mount this argument right now.

[311] We were on one of our subjects at Dex goes, I know everything about.

[312] Oh, the dossier.

[313] Yeah, okay.

[314] You just opened up and he said, I know everything about.

[315] He put an individual underline under each of the words.

[316] He went, I know everything about.

[317] That's when I went like this.

[318] I went like this.

[319] I went like this.

[320] I can't see us, but I went, Hmm.

[321] Yeah.

[322] I went, okay.

[323] That's fair.

[324] You've left out a few words.

[325] I think they're operative.

[326] I said, I happen to know everything about it because I just was about to interview Michael Cohen and I had to learn about it.

[327] That's a little different.

[328] There's so many presumptions in even that.

[329] As if Michael Cohen is the.

[330] Oh, that motherfucker doesn't know anything about anything.

[331] But since that was the full foundation, his argument, I had to learn about the dossier.

[332] And that's a trustworthy sort.

[333] if there was an intellectual humility is really important.

[334] I think that's the thing that I ultimately didn't do a great job saying is my global concern right now, you and I talked three years ago was when you were on last time.

[335] And so we were already touching on maybe getting old and grumpy, which is a great investigation.

[336] Like what things you and I are triggered by were starting to just go like, well, maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy.

[337] And then I was thinking, well, now it's three years later.

[338] So we're a little older or a little grumpier.

[339] I'm wondering what new things for you.

[340] have come up where you're feeling your grumpiness and mine is that mine is in general i see people having way too much conviction in their beliefs i feel like that's just increased through the silos i just think everyone is so goddamn certain of their take on something or the political view of it and that's actually scares me more than left or right but do you think you aren't in that group subjected to that.

[341] Yeah.

[342] I think I have strengths and weaknesses.

[343] I do think my strength is I always make myself mount the counter argument thoroughly.

[344] That is a strength of mine.

[345] It is.

[346] But when you're arguing with someone, I feel like you're taking on that persona.

[347] You're doing what everyone else is doing.

[348] I think when I argue most of the time, it's like, well, what about this, though?

[349] You can be assertive.

[350] Sure, sure, sure.

[351] I get into arguments on here all the time or debates or dances, whatever we want to call them.

[352] And I do feel like, I mean, Most often not even representing my own point of view on it.

[353] It's just I'm trying to signal maybe at best you're 60 % right about this or that I'm 40 % right about this or that it's some percentage on the spectrum.

[354] And I feel like that's the thrust of my arguments most of the time, but maybe not.

[355] Yeah, we talk about it all the time of we've had so many people on the show and what we realize is no one really knows anything.

[356] Everyone only knows a percentage.

[357] But I think we all still get caught, even if we're actively against it.

[358] we still get caught up in thinking what we think is right or we wouldn't think it.

[359] Well, I have total conviction that people have too much conviction, for sure.

[360] In that sense, yes, I agree.

[361] I think that the Internet, the illusion of the availability of accurate information is really, really contributing negatively to people getting their feet locked in the concrete of their opinion.

[362] I'm saying this half jokingly, but you saying, I know everything about the dossier is like a lot of people.

[363] on a lot of subjects are convinced that they have, quote, unquote, done the research, right?

[364] It's the Dunning Kruger.

[365] Yeah, and it's the difference in internet search and actual expertise is really an increasingly big problem.

[366] Yes, yes.

[367] I think something you just said is interesting.

[368] You're like, oh, my circle of empathy is smaller.

[369] It could be true, but I also just think most people's authentic connection to working on things that are outside of their own self -interest comes from their experience.

[370] your experience with addiction, that doesn't mean it's more limited because it's not global or it's interpersonal.

[371] It's authentic to you because it's rooted in your experience.

[372] My interest in environmental work, the frame of it being wide, but it comes directly from my personal experience.

[373] As a kid, with my dad, everything.

[374] It is actually a fairly close circle.

[375] It's not that much different from your circle being defined by your experience.

[376] It's directly from my childhood personal experience and parental experience and familial experience, it's just as close to me as that is to you.

[377] It's not because I have some wider net of empathy.

[378] It really isn't.

[379] Right.

[380] Some heightened ethical.

[381] I do see Kristen is just a completely, she's wired differently.

[382] I mean, it's great.

[383] It's great that we share a household because, you know, we're co -piloting each other and we have different kind of areas of focus.

[384] And you can take some borrowed valor from her.

[385] That's right.

[386] I coat tail in on like, see me like I'm a good guy.

[387] You know, Like us, but I don't think it's necessarily because of me. But anyways, looking now, 25 years later, having some wisdom, having been around it, this was one of my great questions for you today, is, is there something you would go back and whisper to primal fear Ed Norton?

[388] Wait, are you saying just the age I was at?

[389] Are you talking artistic stuff specifically?

[390] You at that age, but coming off of this movie, everything is now open to you in an interesting way in a really dramatic way.

[391] And now that you've navigated it for 25 years, I'm curious what you would say to yourself.

[392] We touched on one of them the other night more when we were looking at your awesome car collection and future garage.

[393] Not our hot tub chat, not the spa and shoulder massage.

[394] Oh, shit.

[395] I shouldn't have said that part.

[396] No, which was that I'm a kind of a do -it -yourself kind of a person, not because I don't think other people do things well, but just because I've tended to micromanage many things in my life.

[397] I wish I had learned younger the value of delegating, teaming up, getting more people involved because at this point in my life, I'm probably spending too much time on levels of work and the things I'm involved with that if I could trade it off, I'd rather have time for a lot of other things that I think are my priority.

[398] But I've encumbered myself and entrapped myself.

[399] Like we were talking, you know, sort of the fight club line, the things that you own end up owning you.

[400] It's really true.

[401] When you're older, you realize ownership of anything literally starts to become like a full -time job.

[402] It can really burden you.

[403] And in a lot of ways, you start wanting to move lighter in the world again.

[404] Well, do you have this feeling when you and Shauna will go somewhere and you're in a hotel room for a week or something?

[405] And you're in there and you're like, oh my God, this life is so manageable.

[406] One room.

[407] We have one suitcase full of, belongings.

[408] I get this like weird gust of freedom.

[409] Yeah, remember in sex lies and videotape, the great Soderberg movie, there's the moment with James Spader, they say, why don't you have a car?

[410] And he says, well, because that would be another key.

[411] I like having just one key.

[412] You know, and he goes through this whole riff about how adding dimensions to your life just means that's another key.

[413] But the other thing that I definitely wish I understood better when I was younger, because it plays into this feeling of being a little overburdened with the things I've chosen to do.

[414] I'm really lucky.

[415] I have a creative life.

[416] It gives me the room and time and resources to do a whole bunch of other things.

[417] There's no question.

[418] It gives you the access to meeting people and expanding your own horizons.

[419] But I miscalculated in my youth and even a little bit beyond that taking on certain responsibilities or taking on certain projects that I would get them done quicker than I've gotten them done.

[420] you start realizing, wow, if you understood how long you have to stick with certain things, to get them to the point of realization, you might decide how many things you're going to get involved with with a little more wisdom.

[421] Did you read that book Essentialism?

[422] People loved it.

[423] No, I didn't.

[424] I should probably read it.

[425] I don't know that for you, I'd have time to read it if I understood what it's about.

[426] Exactly.

[427] It's pretty well known now that multitasking is an illusion, right?

[428] You end up doing all the items you're doing at once slower than if you did.

[429] them one by one.

[430] God, is that true?

[431] Right.

[432] Chris and I have had these battles for the last 15 years.

[433] I'm like, why don't you just stop those other two things and just do the, but I didn't aspire to it.

[434] I just, I need to do the one thing I'm doing.

[435] It's funny because from the outside, I've commented on it that I sometimes am like amazed by how many things I think you were doing it once.

[436] Minimally, I'll dedicate days, right?

[437] Days are set for one pursuit.

[438] And then, yes, there's the diaper company.

[439] That gets whatever days.

[440] But in general, there's four days that are given a week that all I think about is this thing.

[441] And I give myself permission to only think about this thing and just decide that everything else I might lose as a consequence is worth losing for this one thing.

[442] This is kind of beautiful because I think it's a fantastic expression of all the things that you are.

[443] It seems to me this realizes a lot that didn't have expression for you, even when I first met you.

[444] We both got into like entertaining the arts, movies.

[445] You have a whole set of aspirations when you're in your early 20s.

[446] 25 years in, it changes pretty radically.

[447] And in a lot of ways, I look at people I really admire now who are 70, 80.

[448] I am much, much, much more inspired by people who seem to have an incredibly rich tapestry of life than massive achievement in a single lane.

[449] I do admire it when I look at Bruce Springsteen, right, who I think is an incredible person.

[450] He's your guy.

[451] And a significant artist.

[452] But by the way, I could say that about Wes Anderson, right, who I've worked with a lot.

[453] Wes lives and works in a lane defined by essentialism as much as any individual I have ever known.

[454] He is the essential man in the sense that he is cultivated and curated his life experience into a very defined frame.

[455] He's a singular focus.

[456] And look at the great work he does within it, right?

[457] Yeah.

[458] Maybe this is part of what we're talking about getting older so that you don't get grumpy in a way, because I don't want to get grumpy.

[459] You have to get comfortable with who you are and be able to admire someone who's very different without coveting it or aspiring to it or something.

[460] That's very hard for me. And by the way, Wes and I are friends.

[461] And I think Wes admires the degree to which I'm very, very different from him.

[462] He'll look at me and go, you're a pilot.

[463] Right.

[464] It's foreign to him.

[465] Yeah, it's exotic.

[466] Because sometimes, like I'm promoting this movie right now, like we did this.

[467] We did this new.

[468] Glass on you.

[469] Fantastic.

[470] You get back in the press grind.

[471] But sometimes you get this thing of saying like, God, you're great in this.

[472] I wish we saw you more.

[473] The 25 -year -old in you goes, are they perceiving that I haven't capitalized fully on my career?

[474] Like there's a voice that says, am I not working enough?

[475] I know that I don't feel.

[476] And sometimes I said that people, I was like, the last thing I did, I wrote, directed, produced, and starred in it and raised all the financing.

[477] It takes a couple years.

[478] Like, what else was I supposed to be doing?

[479] Right, right, right, right.

[480] What else was I supposed to be doing in that time?

[481] I really had to just say to myself, when that voice comes in, I think about the people who are older than me that I really admire now.

[482] And I'm like, I don't want to narrow my own life experience.

[483] I want a progressive expansion of my life experience.

[484] I want the expansion of the things that give me pleasure and interest.

[485] and that takes work.

[486] That's an active engagement.

[487] In fact, a guy you've had on, I read a quote by that Huberman.

[488] Andrew Huberman, yeah, who I'd never heard of.

[489] It was really weird that I saw that he was on here.

[490] I haven't even listened to him, but then you were referencing him.

[491] And I realized I had seen a quote of his without knowing who he is that I really liked, which is that addiction is the progressive narrowing of the things that gives you happiness.

[492] That can happen to you passively, whereas expansion of the things that gives you happiness takes work.

[493] And I agree with that.

[494] It actually takes the work of self -confrontation and recognizing discomfort and insecurity of being unsure about what's going to come and even hearing those voices saying, but you're so good at this.

[495] Why don't you do more of this?

[496] And then having to sit there and go, do I want to be 80 and just go, yeah, I made 50 more films.

[497] I spent the second half of my life also playing dress -up and pretending to be other people as opposed to doing more real things myself.

[498] I could do three films a year that I love the people that I'm creatively filled by.

[499] It's not about that.

[500] It's just what do you want your total life experience to have been?

[501] Listen, I'm going to translate for all those people, and I think I owned it in the first interview, and I own it again too.

[502] I have the same agenda as those people.

[503] I really do.

[504] Which is what?

[505] Imagine Lewis Hamilton decided he wanted to race eight of the 22 races a year.

[506] I mean, truly, that's what it is.

[507] So if I'm you, and every time I do a press junk, they're like, why don't you do more?

[508] My own insecurities would be, they either think, A, I'm not getting opportunities, which I am.

[509] That would be my insecurity.

[510] Like, do they think I'm not actually getting asked to you?

[511] Because I am.

[512] Or B, they think I've mismanaged this, right?

[513] That I could be fill in the blank, whoever it is.

[514] But I can assure you none of that's happening.

[515] People have a frustration with you, myself included, which is like, I see him in Birdman.

[516] I'm like, oh, that's right.

[517] This guy's Lewis Hamilton.

[518] And then it's like 10 decades later, I see Motherless Brooklyn.

[519] And then, listen, we talked three years ago, and now I'm seeing Glass Onion.

[520] So it's frustrating.

[521] And you just have to accept that.

[522] Let's just talk about acting for a second.

[523] There's lots of people who I get that their schick is kind of iconic.

[524] and it works, but they're doing it an awful lot.

[525] If I see it too much, I'm going to confess that I start to get a little irritated by the high on your own supply quotient that's emanating.

[526] Yes.

[527] Look, it's great work if you can get it and if you can get overpaid for recycling that thing.

[528] Great, it's not a judgment.

[529] And they simply might have different aspirations.

[530] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[531] But my point is, I don't have that.

[532] But number two, when I think about Daniel Day Lewis or Sean Penn or people I think are just tremendously terrific actors who actually succeed in my pulse races at how terrific that work is and what it's revealing and all these things like Daniel Day Lewis and the Phantom Thread, he's a giant.

[533] If you can be like a Picasso within acting.

[534] Yeah, he's done it.

[535] But he's also done.

[536] I mean, years and years between things.

[537] Yeah.

[538] I'm just saying no one's saying to him, why don't you do more?

[539] And I'll tell you what might be with it is.

[540] On a pure artistic level, there's a lot of value to letting people just sort of detach from the previous.

[541] Yeah, just from what you're doing.

[542] But could we collapse that time horizon a little bit?

[543] Maybe we could just shorten the palate cleansing period.

[544] Do you at all think you're a victim of your reverence for cinema?

[545] No. None of it has to do with that.

[546] It's much, much, much more related to your first question, which is what would you tell yourself or younger?

[547] If I knew the time that things take, I got a lot of stories in my head that I want to make into films.

[548] I got a really good prison escape drama.

[549] I've literally written in my head.

[550] I know it.

[551] I want to get to it.

[552] I want to write it.

[553] I want to direct it.

[554] I want Denzel to play one of the main parts in it.

[555] I have stuff that is shaped.

[556] I've got a miniseries about the Lewis and Clark expedition I wrote.

[557] I think I want to direct it.

[558] It's not like my brain isn't occupied constantly, almost compulsively, by stories.

[559] And I'm not even talking about a really great filmmaker who just sent me the adaptation of a Pulitzer Prize -winning autobiography that I thought was one of the most beautiful things I've read that he wants to make.

[560] And I'm like, if you can make that, I'm in.

[561] There's the stuff I'm passively receiving.

[562] There's at least two things right now that I'm signed up for.

[563] I'm ready to go.

[564] If they can get it together, that's not even coming out of my head.

[565] I've got four or five written on page, written in my head that I would like to get done.

[566] And if I was in a narrow lane, I'd have done a lot of them by now.

[567] But the biggest encumbrance, it's neither what's coming from the outside, nor do I feel inspired.

[568] things.

[569] It's much more that I would have to do only that to do all of that.

[570] And I laid a lot of brickwork in other dimensions of life that I can't just walk away from it.

[571] And I don't want to.

[572] It's a much richer life to have an expanded set of experiences that are outside the realm.

[573] And I'm not trying to be condescending, but of playing dress up.

[574] Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

[575] And pretending to be other people for a living.

[576] It's not even, it's super, super weird.

[577] I remember sitting in a car in the Freezing Street in New York with Kate Winslet one time laughing our asses off.

[578] We kind of had this little pause.

[579] And we looked at each other and I knew she was thinking the same thing I was thinking, which is we are adult human beings.

[580] Like, what are we doing?

[581] It's such a surreal thing to do.

[582] And it's also so surreal that people have elevated it.

[583] I mean, we're like minstrels.

[584] I think you're doing something right if people want more of you.

[585] It's a nice way of thinking.

[586] There's too many people who are just so saturated.

[587] It's like, we get it.

[588] And you've earned that right.

[589] Okay, but it's a spectrum.

[590] For me, Bradley Cooper is ideal.

[591] I mean, it slowed down a bit frustratingly so with him.

[592] But it was like every 16 months we got a pretty cool transformation.

[593] Now he's this.

[594] But that probably means the rest of his life is filling out.

[595] And that's a good thing.

[596] Yeah.

[597] I think it's because he went on the same stupid road we did, which is now he's developing shit.

[598] He's got to get his movie greenlit.

[599] And that all of a sudden takes like a year of your life.

[600] I look at Bradley and I'm like, his passion for the thing is deep.

[601] Oh, it's a volcano.

[602] So deep.

[603] But also, he's worked a long time.

[604] He's doing his very best work.

[605] He's in the full power of it.

[606] He's kind of work with amazing filmmakers.

[607] But also, he's getting into that place clearly where he's like the totality of it, the totality of telling the stories, of directing them, being in them.

[608] To me, it's like, why would he gig?

[609] I'm so stoked to see this Leonard Bernstein thing that he's done.

[610] I'm so excited to see it because that's just all chips pushed in.

[611] From the first step up the mountain to the top of theies.

[612] Totally.

[613] And by the way, whatever time that takes, it's going to mean my brain lets me look at Leonard Bernstein because I didn't see him doing a schick for two years in between.

[614] It's going to be better.

[615] All right.

[616] I relent.

[617] I like that Dax is such an advocate for the men he admired.

[618] Oh, yeah.

[619] For the various men he admired.

[620] Oh, yeah.

[621] Forever what he is.

[622] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[623] If you dare.

[624] We've all been there.

[625] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[626] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[627] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[628] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[629] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[630] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[631] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[632] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[633] What's up guys?

[634] This is your girl Kiki and my podcast is It's back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[635] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[636] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[637] And I don't mean just friends.

[638] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[639] The list goes on.

[640] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[641] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[642] I want to ask this because we said we were going to start asking it.

[643] I have that on here.

[644] Oh, you do?

[645] Yeah, go ahead.

[646] Well, first give the example because I think it's best.

[647] It's the most important part.

[648] So we saw this video of Matt Damon talking about how James Cameron had before the original Avatar asked him to be in the movie, offered him 10 % of Avatar.

[649] And he turned it down.

[650] Obviously, he's not in the movie.

[651] He turned it down.

[652] And so now he was just laughing and talking about like.

[653] He's on the highest paid.

[654] How did he phrase it?

[655] He's like, no one's ever.

[656] Yeah, I've turned down the most amount of money ever turned down virtually because that's like $300 million that he turned down.

[657] There's four more coming.

[658] The first one's $3 billion, right?

[659] Yeah, there's four more coming.

[660] So it's potentially a billion is what I said, you know, really.

[661] Yeah, maybe a billion dollars.

[662] But we had him on.

[663] Matt is doing fun.

[664] Yeah, well.

[665] But he was having a good laugh at it because that is, you know, you see this all the time.

[666] It's like someone didn't take the offer for their company.

[667] They didn't cash out.

[668] Just how could one not be affected by that?

[669] Whether you even really care that much about money, it's lost bias.

[670] It's a psychological principle.

[671] We are loss adverse as humans.

[672] So when you, quote, lose something, it's more painful than having not, you know.

[673] But then, yeah, we had him on.

[674] And we didn't ask that, obviously.

[675] We didn't think to.

[676] But then when we saw this, we regretted it.

[677] And I said, but that's kind of like a basic question.

[678] But we decided.

[679] Oh, he didn't talk about it.

[680] It wasn't here.

[681] We just saw something else.

[682] We saw it.

[683] And we were both really kind of sad that we hadn't asked him that and found that out.

[684] Because what an incredibly juicy thing to find out is that he said no to $300 million.

[685] So now we're asking people of that level.

[686] which you are in that category.

[687] What's the biggest career regret thing you passed on?

[688] It may not even be a regret.

[689] It could just be like, I did pass on this.

[690] And that could have been.

[691] A couple extra bucks.

[692] Does it make you uncomfortable to say that?

[693] You know the joke?

[694] How many actors does it take to screw in a light bulb?

[695] 1001 to do it in 99 to say I could have done that so much better.

[696] That's good.

[697] I never heard that.

[698] The actress's brain goes, I didn't get offered avatar.

[699] Of course.

[700] Even after Matt said, No. Your brain goes, let's see.

[701] Well, after he said no, why didn't I get the 5 % off of it?

[702] 3%.

[703] 1%.

[704] I was interviewing Colin Hanks.

[705] And in this interview, I came to find out this movie, I thought I was the first one to have been offered.

[706] This movie is a thorough that Favro directed.

[707] Come to find out he had passed on it long before it came to me. I was a little bit of like, oh, wow, I guess I didn't realize I was like.

[708] An agent told me a comforting story.

[709] And then presumably there might have been.

[710] between Colin Hanks and me. So that was kind of a reverse of that.

[711] It's funny enough.

[712] Joking aside, you never stop the ego.

[713] I think you just learn to observe it, maybe more clinically.

[714] Hopefully.

[715] I mean, this is part of addiction and stuff like that, too, is it's never not going to be there, but I'm going to just relate to it differently.

[716] I'm going to see it as an animalistic impulse or an ego impulse or whatever, right?

[717] Yeah.

[718] I think it's almost dishonest for an actor to say that they get completely free of wondering, hey, why wasn't I in the mix for that or whatever, right?

[719] As ridiculous as that is, because only an actor could think that they should be in everything.

[720] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right.

[721] You know what I mean?

[722] Actually, joking aside, I don't think I have that many things that I turned down that became something I wish I'd done.

[723] I would say the adjacent thing is more, there are things that I think, oh, gosh, I would have loved to get that phone call.

[724] Yeah, yeah.

[725] It's more almost seeing things from a distance.

[726] I really get so excited about seeing people that I think are great in great things.

[727] And it's pretty rare that I still get a sensation.

[728] But to Monica's question, I mean, looking back, I have more things that I think, God, I wish the Wachowski's had asked me about the Matrix than are they asked me about The Matrix and I said no. The Matrix and Fight Club came out around the same time.

[729] And by the way, maybe they did want me for The Matrix and I was doing Fight Club.

[730] That's a story I'll tell myself.

[731] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[732] I was engaged or something.

[733] No, I'm joking.

[734] You can compartmentalize it, in my opinion, though.

[735] First of all, you're dealing with a reality, which is the ultimate and limited resources.

[736] There's been one avatar.

[737] I mean, although before other ones, but there's one biggest movie of all time.

[738] It was Avatar.

[739] Talk about a limited resource.

[740] Don't you have questions for Matt about that?

[741] Oh, so many.

[742] My question for Matt is, Jim Cameron was not an unproven entity at that point.

[743] My argument.

[744] When's the last time you watch Avatar?

[745] Have you shown Atlas?

[746] No, it's too much, I think.

[747] You must.

[748] No. You don't think it's...

[749] No, I showed the girls.

[750] They absolutely loved it.

[751] All right.

[752] And I was like, oh my God, this movie.

[753] It's a masterpiece.

[754] I'm going to say two things about that.

[755] One is, as you know, I do have kind of a passion for nature and the idea of environment and all these things.

[756] I've told this to Jim.

[757] To me, he made the most successful commercial piece of film to entertainment ever.

[758] And the central emotional event of it is a tree falling.

[759] And that is the tragedy of the whole.

[760] whole thing and the anchoring concept of the whole mythic structure that he built is that integration with nature is heroic and destruction of nature is villainy.

[761] And I will revere him forever for that.

[762] The fact that he introduced a generation of people to a mythic structure in which those are the values makes him one of the most important people in environmental conservation and defense of the biosphere.

[763] I couldn't agree more.

[764] And I'm going to say this.

[765] He invited me to the locked office in Manhattan Beach to read the next ones because he really liked Motherless Brooklyn and we're allies in conservation stuff.

[766] So I read them and they're better than the first one.

[767] Oh my God.

[768] Better.

[769] Okay.

[770] Meaningfully from a person who's read and written a lot of scripts.

[771] The second one as a piece of writing, it's even deeper than the first one.

[772] I cannot wait.

[773] Okay, here's my take.

[774] And it comes at great risk of him liking me in the future, Jim Cameron.

[775] So, as you point out, one of the best directors to ever live already.

[776] He's already done Titanic.

[777] He's already done Terminator 2.

[778] He's done Allie and he's done everything, right?

[779] He's great.

[780] I recently watched it.

[781] It's perfect.

[782] It is a great movie.

[783] The dialogue is terrible.

[784] It's absolutely terrible.

[785] It's almost like this is the idea I want to get across, but I'll come back to it and I'll make it what like a human would say.

[786] The dialogue's atrocious.

[787] So you get a script in the mail.

[788] His CG that he unleashed for that movie is a paradigm.

[789] shift.

[790] It's unknowable at that point.

[791] You're reading all these descriptions.

[792] You don't know that that can exist yet until he goes and demonstrates it.

[793] So most of the script is something conceptually unproven.

[794] Now the things I can understand are this dialogue.

[795] It's rough.

[796] I can understand how it was kind of an easy pass.

[797] He just imagined him as the actor saying these lines.

[798] There wasn't a ton there.

[799] And then the rest of it's a world he can't really even imagine.

[800] Only Jim could.

[801] So in that way, it seems like a pass.

[802] I get it, regrettable.

[803] Maybe Matt doesn't really regret it because, to our point exactly, Matt's got four daughters and he's got great allies, great creative allies and artistic allies.

[804] And you're looking at the balance of life.

[805] And you also know, by the way, that's going to be a certain type of experience, right?

[806] It's going to be a year long.

[807] Yeah, a long experience, a lot of digital work.

[808] Acting with shiny balls.

[809] And a person who's already owns the born franchise, should Matt make decisions based on incremental wealth maximization?

[810] That's the right question.

[811] Great privilege of he's been liberated from all other pressures.

[812] I mean, he's laughing when he's telling the story.

[813] He's not crying.

[814] I'm sure he is.

[815] That's what I'm saying is.

[816] Matt is probably one of the more self -aware and hilarious people.

[817] And I think he probably was telling the story on himself for the joke.

[818] But, you know, look, American society, we are a scorecard based culture.

[819] Oh, yeah.

[820] It's a little bit toxic.

[821] If you run your life on a scorecard of money or the regard of others, you're putting yourself in a gnarly cage, it's that human quote.

[822] Without knowing it passively, the things that give you pleasure will narrow.

[823] Yes.

[824] And you will actually not even know what you're not experiencing.

[825] Yes.

[826] I totally agree with you.

[827] We're all pretty infected with a layer over us.

[828] We can't really penetrate.

[829] Myself included.

[830] No. And when you add social media and the idea of not even just in your actual work, but the idea that your life itself needs to be.

[831] become a narrative that needs affirmation.

[832] Yeah.

[833] It can be measured by followers.

[834] So dangerous to real life.

[835] I agree.

[836] Okay.

[837] What are a couple?

[838] I'm going to have to limit you to a couple of your favorite series over the last few years.

[839] Because I was mad three years ago and I'm mad today.

[840] I think my real dream for you, I'm not asking you actually to be in a movie every year.

[841] I think my dream for you is for you to do like a 10 episode series.

[842] So I can spend at least a lot of.

[843] time with the creation.

[844] Then maybe you can take a couple years or whatever.

[845] White Lotus, we're both watching, which we love.

[846] Hilariously great.

[847] I did a neat anthology series that's coming up that Scott Burns, who did Contagion.

[848] Oh, Monica's seen in Florida.

[849] He made a series that's coming up next year on Apple, I think, called Extrapolations.

[850] It's like the black mirror of environmental disaster.

[851] It's like each one imagines, you know, 50, 100 years further in the future and what we're dealing with.

[852] and they're really, really clever and really edgy and dark.

[853] And it's great.

[854] He has Merrill Streep in one.

[855] He has Marion Cotillard in one.

[856] I'm doing one.

[857] Anyway, I walked in to the makeup room one morning and there's a lawyer who's grilling me in a trial in the future.

[858] And it was Murray, the guy who played Bartlett, you know, the general manager in the first one of the last season.

[859] I walked over, I said, I'm so starstruck.

[860] Talk about a revelation.

[861] Why haven't I seen this guy in 45 things?

[862] He is absolutely magnetic.

[863] What about severance?

[864] Like, I could see you, like, can you be in a severance for me?

[865] Man, I wrote Ben a letter about severance.

[866] What a piece of work by Ben.

[867] Unreal.

[868] And his whole team, because I know others directed, too.

[869] The confidence of this?

[870] The compositional.

[871] Every frame was great.

[872] It was conceptually great.

[873] It was visually great.

[874] The acting was so great.

[875] I loved, I may destroy you.

[876] Did you see I may destroy you?

[877] Unbelievable.

[878] Unbelievable piece of work.

[879] I don't know why that's not a huger thing.

[880] I love Fleabag.

[881] Me too.

[882] I was about to say it.

[883] And that was a breakthrough.

[884] But to me, it was like, now add if she's like an enigma actress on top of it.

[885] No, both of those were genius, but I may destroy you.

[886] I didn't know what was coming at me. I mean, that is just an incredible, incredible, author piece of work.

[887] Go back to my soapbox, what I appreciate about I may destroy you is the fairness, the lack of point of view, the exploring both sides of all these complicated, with true intention to let you know how the person felt or what they went through.

[888] It was so fair.

[889] Not dogmatic, yeah.

[890] Yes, like every, you meet these characters now.

[891] Oh, he's the villain.

[892] And then we learn a little bit more, oh, God, yeah, it's more complicated than that.

[893] Oh, and then this is more complicated.

[894] Oh, it was just the fairest trial.

[895] Why Lotus does that, too.

[896] You don't know who's right ever.

[897] Yes, they do a great job.

[898] My pal Brad Pitt and I are both obsessed with Letterkenny.

[899] Okay, yes.

[900] The Canadian television show, Jared Kiso, and that whole team.

[901] I think it's the best thing that's ever come out of Canada, honestly.

[902] Wow.

[903] I think it's one of the funniest shows ever.

[904] As a writer, the language of it.

[905] I mean, have you gone deep on it?

[906] I've probably seen 10 episodes, and I don't know I haven't seen more.

[907] All I can say is from the drop, it's one of the funniest things ever.

[908] But as you get, and I know people say, oh, nine seasons or 10 seasons, whatever, you know, it's like the office.

[909] They're like 23 minutes each.

[910] Remember how the wire just ascended and ascended?

[911] Yes.

[912] By the time you get to the fourth and fifth season of Letter, Kenny, you realize it's getting up into a kind of surrealism and a level of writing.

[913] I mean, it's like the way.

[914] that Chappelle is just in another sort of dimension in the way he writes this to me gets into wordsmithery and surrealism.

[915] So I'd say stay with it.

[916] Oh, okay good.

[917] Stay with it.

[918] That is definitely up to my list.

[919] Because I think he's your kind of man. Oh, for sure.

[920] He's built like a brick shit house.

[921] He's obsessed with muscles and fighting.

[922] He's the hardest man in letter kidding.

[923] And he writes the whole thing.

[924] You know, it's like he's your perfect guy.

[925] I couldn't agree more.

[926] Okay, great.

[927] So you're going to do a series that was decided.

[928] Yeah.

[929] Like I said, I want to make this thing about the Lewis and Clark expedition, but I'm too old to play Lewis or Clark.

[930] Yeah, so I don't want that.

[931] I mean, go ahead and produce it or direct it, but I need you to be in it.

[932] Okay.

[933] I was even thinking this, you're not going to like this, but have you ever had a meeting with Sorkin?

[934] What I realized watching Knives Out, if I think of Sean White's triple McTwist or whatever his famous trick is, the thing you like to see the person do the most, where you're really kind of unmatched is give you a fucking monologue.

[935] Your comfort level, your incredible vocabulary, your diction, all these things now come together perfectly, your memory, give you 40 monologues.

[936] So I was watching Knives out and I'm like, I really want you to be an Aaron Sorkin, something Aaron Sorkenie.

[937] Have you met with him ever?

[938] I met him one time a long time ago.

[939] And it was a sweaty meeting.

[940] That's all I'm saying.

[941] It was odd.

[942] I think it was about something I'm not even sure he had conviction he wanted to make and I don't think it got made.

[943] but he writes his ass off.

[944] I feel like the two of you together might be some weird simitry.

[945] I mean, I love language.

[946] You know, I think Tom Stoppard is one of the greatest writers in the English language.

[947] I came up with Edward Alby, and the first professional play I did in New York called Fragments was a new play of Edward Albies.

[948] And I had a monologue that was like a 20 -minute.

[949] That was 24 years old.

[950] That was like the thing.

[951] It was like 11 pages single spaced, right?

[952] It was just crazy.

[953] Did you just go like, oh, fuck, I can't do that?

[954] or you were excited.

[955] You're built for that.

[956] I would be like, I don't think I can do this.

[957] One of his most famous plays, his first play was the one -act play called Zoo Story, which has this incredibly famous monologue in it called The Story of Jerry and the Dog, which is one of my favorite aria's ever written in a play.

[958] It's really, really great.

[959] And I remember thinking, holy crap, this is like Jerry and the Dog.

[960] Yeah.

[961] And I can kind of still remember it.

[962] It was such an electrifying piece of writing.

[963] And I think I got an agent out of that.

[964] There's a disruptor monologue.

[965] We have that disruptor.

[966] Yes, that's what made me. Yeah, Daniel Craig and I both have some pretty long bits in it, but that disruptor speech that Ryan wrote for my character in The Glass Onion is a pretty terrific.

[967] Okay, so here we are at Glass Onion.

[968] So if people saw Knives Out, I saw it, I loved it.

[969] Monica loved it.

[970] We love Ryan Johnson, just to remind people, he did Brick, he did Brothers Bloom, Looper.

[971] He did three episodes of Breaking Bad.

[972] I I had no clue about that.

[973] Yeah, some of the best ones.

[974] Okay, so Glass Onion is a new, in the way that the murder on the Orient and the murder on the Nile or whatever, what's that series?

[975] Death on the Nile.

[976] Yeah, Agatha Christie.

[977] These aren't based on books, though, are they?

[978] No, no. He's created his own detective in Benoit Blanc, who's in the first.

[979] Ryan's a great filmmaker.

[980] Looper is a really good sci -fi movie.

[981] Big time.

[982] Yeah, it's a terrific piece of work.

[983] And I loved Brick, because as we talked about with Mellis Brooklyn, I really love noir films.

[984] and it's this really original idea of a noir film in a high school, right?

[985] And in suburbia.

[986] Yeah, but played totally straight.

[987] I think Ryan understands the form better than most people I've ever met in the sense that he's very quick to point out that Agatha Christie seems like period to us now.

[988] But when Agatha Christie wrote her books, they were very topical and zeitgeisty.

[989] Her characters.

[990] Well, yeah, her characters were people just back from the war and a lord and things.

[991] they had every bit of the social edginess.

[992] She was assembling a feeling of the zeitgeist of the moment she wrote these things in.

[993] And she would move Poirot from an English manor crime to a crime on a train.

[994] She changed the scenario.

[995] She changed the mechanism of the crime.

[996] She changed who the characters were and which sort of social dynamics of the moment they represented.

[997] She was sticking a fork or a knife hard into very, very topical dynamics, right?

[998] So her books were very transparent to people.

[999] They're kind of opaque to us now.

[1000] They look like museum pieces, right?

[1001] Yeah.

[1002] Not that the refried beans of Death on the Nile can't be fun.

[1003] But Ryan was like, no, no, no, no, no. The juice in the form is the fun and the pleasure of the roller coaster and the puzzle and a great detective character, but it's to do what she was doing, which is write it about what's going on now, use the murders and the mysteries and the stuff to stick a fork in things people are going to recognize from the moment because there's a certain extra pleasure in seeing these types of people and taking the piss out of them a little bit.

[1004] Ryan also, unlike Agatha Christie, is also really funny.

[1005] I thought the first one was really funny.

[1006] I think this one is even funnier.

[1007] Yeah, I'm curious how long, he had been imagining you for the role you play because he is capitalizing and exploiting what you bring to it definitely on multiple dimensions without going into it yes i don't want to ruin something but i do have to say that you're so articulate and you're so well -spoken you know such a vocabulary i know where you're going that there were a couple times when he's talking and he says a word and i literally think that's the first time i've heard that word but i trust edward yeah so i literally was like well i must not know that word.

[1008] Ryan used, I think, brilliantly multiple dimensions of the associated baggage that comes with me, you know, to mess with you.

[1009] Yes.

[1010] I think he, pure play thought I could just fit the role and about it.

[1011] But there's no question.

[1012] He also was like, I need to mess with people.

[1013] I didn't put this together to the end, right?

[1014] Like, after I finished the movie, I'm now thinking back.

[1015] And I'm like, this was beyond an inspired casting decision.

[1016] This was very, very.

[1017] very, very calculated, and it works in a lot, a lot of ways.

[1018] And then, I guess he's doing that to some degree with a lot of the characters.

[1019] Kate Hudson's character is named Birdie.

[1020] Do you read, like Kurt's nickname for Kate is Bertie?

[1021] Did you know that?

[1022] I didn't know that.

[1023] Yeah, but Ryan didn't know that.

[1024] That's a coincidence.

[1025] Yeah, coincidence.

[1026] But, I mean, I watched the movie the other night sitting behind Kate and Goldie, which was just hysterical because I did my second movie with Goldie, the Woody Allen film, everyone says I love you.

[1027] Just like couldn't have loved her more.

[1028] She was like the mother hen to all of us on it.

[1029] But watching Goldie watch Kate do that part was so meta and shrieking with laughter at the way Kate's channeling Goldie in it.

[1030] Well, it is probably the most Goldie Hawn -esque performance Kate's done.

[1031] Yeah, she is so funny in it.

[1032] Although almost famous maybe also.

[1033] I think maybe I laughed harder at Kate in this than I've ever laughed at her.

[1034] I mean, I think she's so friggin' funny in it.

[1035] Yeah.

[1036] High, high level of commitment.

[1037] Yeah.

[1038] Everyone's great in it.

[1039] You're in it, of course.

[1040] Daniel Craig is back playing the detective.

[1041] Janelle Monet.

[1042] Fantastic.

[1043] Incredible.

[1044] She kind of anchors the whole thing.

[1045] Yes.

[1046] I hosted SNL and she was the musical guest.

[1047] Oh, really?

[1048] Yeah, years ago.

[1049] And that's how we met.

[1050] We bonded a long time ago over loving Bowie and what an impact he had on us.

[1051] It's a funny thing to say, but I think of Janelle as a very Bowie -like figure in the sense that in her music, she creates these characters, you know, arc android and then dirty robot she embodies these characters and then does a record around their point of view that idea yes and then she's this terrific actor if janele doesn't pull off which she pulls off in this movie it doesn't work true and then i have to call out as well because she just is my favorite person is katherine hawn had you worked with her before no shana produced anchorman and she was in their old pals i've watched her for years she's a comedic genius i think yes did you ever happen to see on Broadway, the play Boing, Boeing.

[1052] It was Mark Rylinson, Bradley Whitford, and then the women in it were Catherine, Han, Mary McCormick, and Gina Gersh, and it was hands down over Book of Mormon, over the producers.

[1053] I've never laughed that hard in the theater.

[1054] At one point, Spike Lee was in the audience.

[1055] We went the same night, and Spike went out of his chair onto his knees in the aisle and was slapping the floor, screaming with laughter.

[1056] Like, it was like, yeah, it was so.

[1057] funny but we got leslie odum yes he's incredible in it you know dave baltista it was a great great gang of people yeah so how often do you find yourself absent -mindedly just staring at batista did you find yourself just getting sucked into the spectacle of his size yeah you know what's funny too is like you're bigger than me you're lifting more than i am these days so like when we say hey and i'm like oh man dachs is gags and gertes he's got some size bautista's like three of you i know He's so big.

[1058] We had Camel on post -being ripped on Gianni, right?

[1059] Camel's already jacked beyond belief.

[1060] Yeah, but he's not.

[1061] He's still famous.

[1062] Yeah, he's so fan.

[1063] Dave is really large.

[1064] He's like a 300 -pound man. Yeah, he's not maybe that big, but he's so lean.

[1065] Uh -huh.

[1066] You know, he's vegan.

[1067] He's vegan?

[1068] Yeah.

[1069] And in that whole group of people, he was the gentlest and kindest among us.

[1070] He is such a nice guy.

[1071] He's such an earnest, good soul.

[1072] and dryly funny.

[1073] Actually, there's one thing I can say because it was just an out -tick, but when we're walking into my character's Greek Island Mansion, he goes, dude, this place is like Zeus's nut sack.

[1074] And I was like, I looked at him like, where did you come up with that?

[1075] Like, Mr. Wrestler, he's just great.

[1076] Do you think when you're his size and like you say, he's just the kindest and sweetest, it does kind of speak to really once you feel safe, your level of benevolence, how much all of us are purported, But he's an incredibly sensitive guy.

[1077] There's no aggro with him.

[1078] I guess what I'm saying is it's easy for Rock to come in and go up to every guy, Dwayne Johnson, and say, hey, how you doing?

[1079] Smile.

[1080] It's already established.

[1081] He is the biggest human being in the room.

[1082] And he's in a position of great safety.

[1083] And so he can engage and be kind.

[1084] He doesn't have to worry anyone's going to try to exploit him or going to try to take advantage of him or run an angle on him.

[1085] There's like a freedom on having that.

[1086] I think if we all felt safest, we would all be a lot more generous and benevolent and kind and patient.

[1087] Some people are natural.

[1088] I don't know, Dwayne Johnson met him in passing.

[1089] He seemed really nice.

[1090] But he seems more extroverted.

[1091] Dave really surprised me just with how he's a very introverted and thoughtful, dude.

[1092] Maybe that did make him feel unsafe if he was so sensitive growing up and then he built, who know.

[1093] Did you touch him a lot?

[1094] Yeah.

[1095] Well, in the film, we have a lot.

[1096] But in real life, did you find yourself when you were talking to him that you would just be like, wow, I'm really kind of touching him a lot.

[1097] I'm objective.

[1098] Well, I'm wondering if it's just me that does this.

[1099] But yeah, when I'm around a really enormous guy, I'm constantly, like, as I'm talking, I'm slapping them on the tricept.

[1100] When I did the 25th hour with Spike Lee, Tony Siragusa, I don't know if you remember the goose, he was a Super Bowl winning linebacker for the Ravens.

[1101] He's my Ukrainian muscle in the 25th hour because Spike was a huge fan of him.

[1102] And he was like 3 .30.

[1103] It all felt like a bag of sand.

[1104] I mean, he was so hard.

[1105] You would mess around with him and go in, you know, bump him and it hurt you know it was like just so big i just can't keep my hands off someone that big i'm like women aren't that big i'll say i'd be in trouble because i just manhandle the men i'm around that are that big even her friend charlie he's another 25 pounds every than me i just can't stop it's like so massive i'm like i don't feel this thing stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare i've been thinking lately about i surf a lot right so i focus on staying limber and i'm to realize I still want to get better and better at surfing.

[1106] And I was surfing recently with Lewis Hamilton.

[1107] You and I were talking about our F1 passions and stuff.

[1108] Louis is a good surfer.

[1109] First of all, my hat's off to you that you didn't brag about that once.

[1110] We talked about Formula One for about an hour and a half and you did not mention you went surfing with Lewis Hamilton.

[1111] So what integrity?

[1112] Well, two things really struck me. Of course, here I am in public, making sure you know.

[1113] You saved it.

[1114] I saved my man crush revelation.

[1115] First of all, you realized the G forces that are on those guys.

[1116] Five and a half.

[1117] It's just unreal, right?

[1118] So their dynamic strength, core strength, that holding themselves against those forces is really amazing.

[1119] Point being, he's a professional athlete.

[1120] Oh, the conditioning's off the charts.

[1121] You're friends with Ricardo, I know.

[1122] And really interestingly, I think it's isometric strength, right?

[1123] It's like that thing of being able to hold in all these strange play, you know, the inner thighs and in the abdomen and all these things.

[1124] They're necks.

[1125] When you mean an F1 driver in real life, you're like immediately like, whoa, you're neck.

[1126] is almost twice the size of your head.

[1127] Yeah.

[1128] He and I were talking about when you surf, you realize that it's a whole different set, like having really open hips and being strong in the hip flexors and in the abdomen, the core, right?

[1129] You discover where you're weak.

[1130] You thought you were flexible, but then you realize you're not as flexible as you thought in certain key ways to transition from one posture to another and to keep your weight and your balance and your strength online.

[1131] And I realized over time watching people like Kelly Slater or Gabriel Medina surf up close, the specific type of strength really crystallizes for you.

[1132] So I started sort of saying, well, that's what I want to work.

[1133] I don't want to just lift straight line weights.

[1134] I want to focus on a goal.

[1135] So that's sort of what I've been doing more.

[1136] And Lewis and I were talking about it too.

[1137] That was my point, is not to brag that I hung out with Lewis Hamilton.

[1138] You should, though.

[1139] And that we're besties.

[1140] But even he was saying we went to this kind of cool training center for serving.

[1141] The place with the perfect wave?

[1142] Yeah, with Kelly Slater's wave.

[1143] Is that so fun?

[1144] Unbelievable.

[1145] It's actually like a privilege because it's, There's nothing like it in the world.

[1146] There's never been anything that lets you train in a repetitive way.

[1147] Do you know about that machine?

[1148] It's remarkable.

[1149] So I think the premise of it, I don't know anything about surfing, but as I recall, the premise of it was that it's really hard to judge these surfers and surfing competitions because they're all getting different waves.

[1150] Like some guy gets a better wave than another guy or a girl gets a better way.

[1151] I mean, that's kind of the art of it too.

[1152] Sure, but just it's not a standard.

[1153] It's not a standard.

[1154] Yes.

[1155] If you want to evaluate somebody, it's kind of unfair what set they get that comes in.

[1156] The premise of this was like, what if we give everyone the, exact same wave.

[1157] And he created this enormous machine.

[1158] How long is that?

[1159] Like a quarter mile long?

[1160] It's an old wake skiing lake.

[1161] Yeah, it's like a electric cable.

[1162] It looks like a train, but it has a six snow plow size foil.

[1163] Uh -huh.

[1164] It's an incredible, incredible feat of engineering.

[1165] You can request from a portfolio of waves, some that barrel, some that don't, some these things.

[1166] And they press a button and the foil changes in it.

[1167] Yeah, it's remarkable.

[1168] That is cool.

[1169] Anyway, the point is we were doing it a lot and even, Lewis, who's so fit, was like, I'm not going to be able to walk tomorrow.

[1170] And I was like, you.

[1171] I'm an actor.

[1172] I think I'm going to feel.

[1173] Yeah, exactly.

[1174] I do think there's value to strength training as you get older.

[1175] Like that guy you work with Charlie, is that like the kind of person, if you say someone, hey, this is an agenda.

[1176] Oh, he could do that.

[1177] Yeah.

[1178] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[1179] He has transformed his own body in front of us, like, as a hobby.

[1180] You have to listen to the Peter Attia Huberman podcast because I think the reason you'll re -address your previous assumptions, and Peter Atiyah breaks all these down.

[1181] When you look at the kind of actuary data, life expectancy, level of activity, he likes to start with his patients on the last 10 years of your life.

[1182] You model backwards from what you want to do in the last 10 years of your life, and you establish these goals.

[1183] And it's very simple math at that point.

[1184] You say, okay, if you want to be able to go surfing when you're 89 years old, you're going to have to have these four different core strengths at this percentage of your current, because we can see, we have all the data.

[1185] All humans fall precipitously over time in these key areas.

[1186] So if you want to end up here on the X, Y, access, at 89, you have to be here at 50 years old.

[1187] You have to be able to deadlift 2X your body weight, or whatever the numbers are, because you're going to lose 8 % a year.

[1188] And so to end up at the sweet spot you want to be at, we know where you have to be today.

[1189] And when you evaluate your fitness that way, it just becomes an entirely different calculus.

[1190] It's really fascinating.

[1191] Kristen was listening to and she's like, oh, wow, right.

[1192] Breaking hips.

[1193] Osteoporosis, these are things that are very prevalent in women.

[1194] What's the best safeguard against them?

[1195] Heavy weight training.

[1196] It makes your ligaments pull harder on your muscles.

[1197] It creates more bone density mass. Like, it's just, do you want to do X, Y, or Z?

[1198] Okay, this is what you have to be doing.

[1199] Your hand strength is a big metric and where you'll end up.

[1200] Can you hold your own body weight for these many minutes?

[1201] So he can just set at least your targets for today so that you'll end up where you want to be in that last 10 years of your life, which is pretty fascinating.

[1202] One of the things I think is so tough, it's very hard for people to find the resources of time and the resources of information.

[1203] That's why those podcasts and stuff are so amazing.

[1204] There's lots of things, like the accessibility to really high grade what would have been expensive and hard to access hyper professionalized fitness information, right?

[1205] Yeah.

[1206] Truly backed by science.

[1207] I mean, you can go on and look at video series on Instagram on strength calisthenics.

[1208] Then there's the whole problem of personal time and motivation and all these things that are intrinsic.

[1209] There's other barriers.

[1210] The access to the people that, you know, you used to only be able to get for 215 hours is kind of over, I think, which is cool.

[1211] Yeah.

[1212] God bless Peter T. he's pretty much giving his individual consulting business away for free on his podcast, and I'm there to take it all in for free.

[1213] It's good to look for the silver lining in the rightful identification of the toxic things that come with social media and the addictions, the inauthentic scorecards and the things that are unhealthful.

[1214] But when I find myself, for instance, listening to all this noise about whether it's good or bad if Twitter goes away or he fucks it up or whatever, and I realize I don't care in the sense that, first of all, the life cycle of companies and creation, destruction, If it goes down, another way for people to communicate is going to arise.

[1215] There are ones that are already there.

[1216] I think the life cycle on these things, some of them are faddish.

[1217] It's like Lincoln's speech about saying that we can neither add nor subtract.

[1218] I think people's capacity to interact with each other will neither be added to nor subtracted.

[1219] We will find our ways around it.

[1220] And I think interaction between humans, the internet is like the hydra.

[1221] Anything you cut off, it's going to grow two more.

[1222] There's no zero -sum game of like if we lose.

[1223] this will never get it back.

[1224] I also think the generational component gets vastly underestimated in these business models.

[1225] Totally agree.

[1226] People don't even think about the fact that no one wants to use whatever your parents did.

[1227] Period.

[1228] That's built into the system.

[1229] Couldn't agree more.

[1230] Some things aren't.

[1231] It's weird.

[1232] I don't know what products escape that you don't care that your parents drink Coca -Cola.

[1233] You still drink Coca -Cola.

[1234] I guess it's things that you more are likely to link your identity to.

[1235] There's going to be generational turnover because it's just not cool.

[1236] I'm going to make one parallel before we go.

[1237] I don't think I've ever done it.

[1238] But of everyone I've ever met in my life, The person you most remind me of, and I don't know if you guys have had any kind of relations over the years, but you and Ashton are so similar.

[1239] Do you know this?

[1240] I know him not well.

[1241] Okay, I'm going to make the case.

[1242] You ready?

[1243] Okay.

[1244] So he has the same thing.

[1245] He's not against me being jacked, right?

[1246] But he's just always like, explain this to me. Explain this, all this effort you're putting into this.

[1247] His own agenda is more staying lean and thin is probably the best for longevity.

[1248] You age better.

[1249] You know, he's got all these different motivations for himself.

[1250] He's got the discipline.

[1251] He's got all the things you would need if you wanted to be muscular.

[1252] And it just doesn't appeal to him.

[1253] He and I are always debating it.

[1254] And he appreciates it to me. It's not like he's judgmental.

[1255] He has a different take, right?

[1256] And it's kind of fun when we talk about it.

[1257] He also did exactly what you did, which is a lot of people when they get status and cachet, they use it to meet people.

[1258] And so most actors end up hanging out with McJagger and some professional tennis players.

[1259] Right?

[1260] so into technology and he's so into investing, he's so into venture capitalism.

[1261] This whole world to him is what's most fascinating.

[1262] And he has leveraged his appeal to become friends and get immersed in a world that is very unique for an actor to go get immersed.

[1263] The only other person I know that took their leverage and did the same thing is really you.

[1264] When I find out the people you spend time with or who you use that Goodwill card to get on the phone, they're very unconventional.

[1265] Interesting.

[1266] You're so interested in business.

[1267] You're involved in so many different businesses.

[1268] Yeah, less so interested in sort of the dynamics of business per se and more so if model can produce some change you like to see.

[1269] Yeah, or not even just change, but I've started companies doing things that are not sexy and are not even, you know, let's call it positive social mission driven at all, but that for whatever reason, the niche thing that it's going after has caught my imagination.

[1270] Like for you, Uber made sense the first time you met whoever started Uber.

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] I met Travis a long time ago when it was in San Francisco.

[1273] And that really quick, that's the difference between you, Ashton and I. It was very specific.

[1274] I lived in New York 30 years.

[1275] The New York taxi system is an illegal cartel model.

[1276] And it's abusive to the drivers and abusive to the riders.

[1277] Nobody's benefiting but Ukrainian mobsters.

[1278] Michael Cohen, he owned like 13.

[1279] Literally, the Russian mob woven into that whole thing.

[1280] And it was a true social negative on every level.

[1281] That to me had real play because I really saw it as an inversion of almost every one of the negative dynamics of the taxi cartel system.

[1282] And so I was interested in it and behind it.

[1283] But Ashton, I think, is more interested in the actual idea of venture capital.

[1284] Because he actually manages other people's money, I think.

[1285] He does, but you can see people's kink.

[1286] Like, they're in something that might have a broad description of what it is.

[1287] But I know for him what it is, is he is absolutely.

[1288] He is, absolutely obsessed with pioneering ideas.

[1289] Now, there happens to be a venture capital aspect to it, but he can't wait to hear what someone has thought of.

[1290] He does well communicating with those people in the tech world.

[1291] If you took everything else he's ever done away, he's as serious as anyone I've ever met about that.

[1292] He's a complete, fully formed professional, and he's been at it for a long time.

[1293] He's hyper, hyper, hyper impressive in his diligence and seriousness about it.

[1294] The thing is kind of funny, the Glass Onion, the mystery is that my character is a tech billionaire who has invited his OG friends from the old days to a new private Greek island that he owns to have their annual reunion, but that this time he's planned a murder mystery game.

[1295] And underneath it, we start finding out all the dimensions of their history and their interactions that could lead you to believe that each of them might have a reason to want him dead, right?

[1296] That's right.

[1297] That's sort of the basic premise, right?

[1298] And Blanc ends up there.

[1299] It was a huge villa at the Amman resort in Greece.

[1300] There's some enhancement, but actually just about everything about the house is actually what it looks like other than...

[1301] Oh, my gosh.

[1302] Did you guys stay at the Amman?

[1303] Oh, no, I wish.

[1304] To say we hung out on set is an understatement.

[1305] Pretty much everyone was like, can I just sleep here tonight and I'll see you in the morning?

[1306] I got a 5 a .m. call time tomorrow.

[1307] I feel like it would be better if I just stayed.

[1308] That boat ride is 30 minutes.

[1309] It actually was on the past.

[1310] Peloponnesian Peninsula, so we weren't on an island.

[1311] But anyway, it is really fascinating to me that we're in this really interesting moment where more than we did with entertainers, more than we did with sports stars, we've obviously, we've elevated sort of this tech illuminati species.

[1312] The last few years, I think, it's been really interesting to see the rise and fall of.

[1313] We're really starting to confront the degree to which, and you talk about scorecards, we are projecting general genius off of success that's driven by a very, narrow arbitrage on a certain insight or a certain execution, right?

[1314] And success at doing something genuinely disruptive and innovative does not equate with broad knowledge, broad knowledge, general social genius, all these things.

[1315] In many of the cases, whether it's WeWork or it's Theranos or now FTX, there can be just out and out fraudulence under it, right?

[1316] Yes.

[1317] But we will bend ourselves around.

[1318] We are very susceptible, us primates, to deities.

[1319] We are so.

[1320] susceptible to like a couple of impressive things and we really will elevate someone to a non -human level of fallibility.

[1321] I'm not pro or anti -elon, but I really am fascinated with the deification of him and even watching what are quite objectively an obvious stumbles in the Twitter process to watch the devotees of him explain and redirect how this was a brilliant stroke of calculation.

[1322] Oh yeah, purposely fucking this up i've already heard this from some of the parishioners oh yeah he's fucking it up so that it's not as valuable so he can do x y or z and i'm like you're really bending this unbreakable bias that he's infallible the guy might fuck up a bunch but that's not on the table yeah my character in the glass onion uses the phrase i hope it got a laugh out of you licking the taint um yeah yeah there's a lot of that going on these dynamics are really interesting I think, I mean, look, you know, as someone who is interested in environmental, you'll never take away the fact that he, as an individual with Tesla, he implemented a lever function on the whole auto industry.

[1323] The auto industry is decarbonizing.

[1324] Of course, in production chain, there's carbon.

[1325] But he basically pushed the entire industry toward the inevitable outcome that we're driving electric cars.

[1326] Yeah, reeled it in by like 15, 20 years.

[1327] At least.

[1328] But there's other themes under this.

[1329] So it's like there's this great skewering of our cars.

[1330] current worship of the tech geniuses that in glass onion yes in glass onion yes which is tasty it is so ubiquitous it's not a esoteric concept no and by the way by the way by the way's a lot of people the nerds have won't make sense today right if you're a kid i never thought about that but that's funny the jocks lost and now like what is their comeuppance because of what's going on with musk literally people have been saying to me obviously you guys are skewering him specifically and i keep saying wait wait wait We made this movie in the spring and summer of 2021.

[1331] There was no evidence to the contrary.

[1332] My character, and this is a little like Carly Simon, you're so vain, you'll probably think this song is about you.

[1333] I think a lot of people might think it's about them.

[1334] And if the shoe fits, it probably applies.

[1335] But in truth, it really was much more interesting for us to take the best of the worst qualities of a lot of them and put them in the blender and create the ubermensch of tech Illuminati douchebags.

[1336] It's a lot more interesting to create a heightened version of a thing than to try to take swings at one particular individual.

[1337] That is the exciting signage to get you into what is a much more relatable dynamic, which I think the movie's really ultimately about, which is it doesn't really matter where you're at on the strata or the socioeconomic ladder.

[1338] These pockets exist in every single little social network.

[1339] So when I was younger and we were all broken in Detroit, I had a buddy who had three snowmobiles.

[1340] Like, that elevated him to the role of your character in this movie.

[1341] Yes, you're right.

[1342] You all have to play ball with the person who's got the shit you want.

[1343] It is actually the most relatable dynamic to watch on full.

[1344] I couldn't agree more.

[1345] It's really as much about old friends and they're in -group, out -group.

[1346] Yes, and who has the status in the group and who has the shit?

[1347] Everyone's kind of benefiting from.

[1348] And then how that taints relationships.

[1349] And, of course, I turn it right back into myself.

[1350] It's an interesting dynamic to be.

[1351] someone who might be providing the things, how human and natural it is to resent that person.

[1352] There's just a lot of really juicy human dynamics that are on display in that in a heightened way, but are familiar, I think, to a lot of people.

[1353] There's always a friend who has the biggest house, and then everyone goes to their house for the barbecues.

[1354] Things are off to the races at that point.

[1355] Yeah, and isn't it funny?

[1356] I think the first one's really more family.

[1357] Everybody with their knives out to try to get from Christopher Flummer's successful granddad writer.

[1358] Yes.

[1359] Right.

[1360] And it's hilarious specifically because people can relate to their all right cousin and the uncle who thinks he's going to inherit the business.

[1361] And it's just great because it is universal.

[1362] But you're right.

[1363] This is not family.

[1364] This is about friends and the flow of life and career.

[1365] And it all happens.

[1366] It happens on a smaller scale.

[1367] It's like what wife's in the best shape.

[1368] You go to the beach.

[1369] There's like a whole dynamic about the wife who's in the best shape.

[1370] There's a dynamic about the husband in the.

[1371] Monica is going, oh God.

[1372] Charlie holds.

[1373] the status in our pod simply because he's an Adonis.

[1374] It's there.

[1375] All the other men just stare at Charlie and we're like, oh, look at Charlie's traps now.

[1376] Look when he walks.

[1377] Like, we're little monkeys.

[1378] You know what I think's funny about your group is the guys are looking at the men.

[1379] They're not looking at each other.

[1380] I don't think that's unique.

[1381] I think men look at men and women look at women.

[1382] Like, I don't think men are becoming meatheads and getting juice beyond belief because women like it.

[1383] I think they think men like it and i don't think that really men drive the diet culture and women as much as women drive the diet culture that's my hot take on that i think supermodels magazines there's a enormous pressure put on women societally that that's the perfect image my only counter to that point which i agree with is i don't know those magazines i don't have a single male friend who knows about those magazines i don't have a single male friend that knows the models that are popular that's not what we consume.

[1384] So albeit that's the pressure, it's a pressure that's put on a circulation that exists of 99 % female subscribers.

[1385] So there's a weird dichotomy in there.

[1386] It's still through the male gaze.

[1387] It's still ultimately look like this.

[1388] We're not gazing at it.

[1389] We don't look at those magazines.

[1390] Men don't like what models look like.

[1391] Take you out of it.

[1392] Yes, they do.

[1393] Yes, they do.

[1394] Of course they do.

[1395] We don't create that industry.

[1396] We don't buy the stuff.

[1397] We don't buy the those, we don't buy the magazines, we don't buy the ads.

[1398] The whole thing is generated, funded, fueled by women's consumerism for those products, those magazines, those skin care lines, those everything.

[1399] We actually don't participate in it.

[1400] I mean, just truly, we don't.

[1401] Just like you guys aren't driving car magazines.

[1402] You don't buy the products.

[1403] Men are used as the bait to buy the products.

[1404] Look like this so that you will attract a man. Told to you by other women.

[1405] My point is this pressure of the magazine, which I agree with, the magazine doesn't exist without women.

[1406] It only exists for women.

[1407] Men don't support that industry.

[1408] I agree.

[1409] So the magazines that are oppressive only exist because they're being purchased by women, not men.

[1410] That's an unavoidable truth about it.

[1411] But are you saying that men don't perpetuate the idea that models are the ideal woman.

[1412] I think they do in as much as women drive the perception that Charlie's perfect.

[1413] There's a lot of women that think Charlie's perfect.

[1414] That's not what's driving the supplement industry.

[1415] The supplement industry is driven by magazines, men's health, fitness magazines that men buy and aspire to be in the magazines.

[1416] The women aren't saying they didn't vote.

[1417] They're not declaring this is the kind of body we like.

[1418] The men are declaring it by buying the magazine.

[1419] I think men are also declaring that that's the best male body as well, because that's the biggest, that's the most masculine, that means alpha.

[1420] Men are pressuring other men to transform their body, and women are pressuring other women to transform their bodies.

[1421] We're doing it to ourselves.

[1422] Men want Dax to crush on them.

[1423] They do.

[1424] There's no doubt about that.

[1425] I think you're the most in love with the male form of any of my male friends.

[1426] I'm more in love with it than gay friends.

[1427] of mine who have a sexual outcome for it, which is a curious, curious thing.

[1428] Like I have lots of gay male friends who aren't as interested in Brad Pitt's body as I am.

[1429] Have you talked to Brad?

[1430] Dying to.

[1431] If you have any strings you can pull, we'd love to have him in that seat.

[1432] You know how it is.

[1433] I never even pressured you.

[1434] I feel very weird about ever trying to get a friend to, you know.

[1435] Of course.

[1436] I don't know.

[1437] Maybe he and I should come together or something.

[1438] Oh, my God.

[1439] Oh, that'd be fun.

[1440] Can you imagine the appeal of a fight club or you?

[1441] A reunion?

[1442] Do you think he'd train for that episode?

[1443] Like, get Duffy back on the scene.

[1444] You know, we've almost done things together.

[1445] We've contemplated things to do.

[1446] You're just going to make me more frustrated.

[1447] No, I'm going to say, like, fucking figure it out.

[1448] What's the God.

[1449] One time, we were going to do something.

[1450] You were going to do Lewis and Clark?

[1451] Yes, we put this whole thing together ourselves.

[1452] But we were almost too old, even at the time.

[1453] Now, we're definitely too old.

[1454] We were slated to do a movie together.

[1455] I warned the director that Brad was not sold all the way on the script.

[1456] and that he was going to pull out.

[1457] And the director gave me a very confident because he directed a movie that someone had been nominated for, he was pretty sure.

[1458] And I was like, I know my man, and he is very close to on his way out.

[1459] And indeed, he was the one who failed.

[1460] Don't wait until you guys are rebooting the Grumpur old men franchise.

[1461] That's not when I want you guys to repair.

[1462] It'd be fun.

[1463] He's so much fun.

[1464] Making this movie Glass Onion was, without a doubt, one of the most fun I've ever had.

[1465] We were all in our pajamas for a year and a half before we went and did it.

[1466] At least I was.

[1467] I didn't work up until then during the pandemic and everything.

[1468] Us getting the invitation to do the film was not dissimilar from the characters getting the invitation to go to the Greek island.

[1469] It really was like, are you kidding me?

[1470] When the phone rang and it said Ryan Johnson, I answered by saying yes.

[1471] Like I was like, whatever.

[1472] He was like, I got something.

[1473] I'm like, triple yes.

[1474] You know, he's like, we should read it.

[1475] I'm like, I will, but I don't need to.

[1476] And then he was like, Greece, and I said, my bags are packed.

[1477] But it did turn out to be this summer theater troupe kind of vibe that everybody was a little giddy about.

[1478] Apart from all of that, it was just the best group of people.

[1479] I loved that no one including Daniel, who's, you know, fucking James Bond.

[1480] It's his vehicle.

[1481] No one didn't give in happily to this group dynamic.

[1482] Every weekend night, we were together having drinks, playing games.

[1483] No one was too good for it.

[1484] No one was busy.

[1485] No one was in a bad mood for some reason you didn't know and was keeping to themselves.

[1486] Everybody was like high school summer theater camp.

[1487] And no one wanted their parents to pick them up.

[1488] I think it comes through actually.

[1489] I think you and I were talking about this in the hot tub.

[1490] You can never underestimate the power of a performer who's enjoying themselves.

[1491] It's actually more powerful than any sketch or impersonation I ever saw at the ground.

[1492] Whoever had the biggest blast on stage, generally scored the biggest.

[1493] And yes, palpably everyone is fucking enjoying being in that movie.

[1494] And it's so fun.

[1495] Yeah.

[1496] Fortunately, that's not bad for the film.

[1497] No, no, no, no, no, no. You aren't making Finler's less.

[1498] Why don't know in such a good move?

[1499] This is a whole, it's cognitive distance in a bad way.

[1500] I loved it.

[1501] I love everything that Ryan makes.

[1502] I love Knives out the first one.

[1503] I love this one.

[1504] And it has the rare trajectory of the movie gets better and better and better and better every minute you watch it.

[1505] I totally agree.

[1506] He's got a great feeling for just when to flip things in the way that perks you right back up and goes, oh, wait, I did not realize this is what was happening.

[1507] He's got an exquisite sense of construction.

[1508] Yes.

[1509] You know, a mystery can be clinical.

[1510] If you're spending time trying to figure it out, you're maybe not being entertained enough.

[1511] And I think he does a terrific little sleight of hand, which is you think you want to figure it out, but at a certain point, you're kind of having so much fun.

[1512] didn't give a fuck that you're not doing the mental gymnastics of just trying to figure it out you're just sort of being entertained so then when it's revealed it's pleasurable but even more than that what i think i really admire about him that maybe's not in agatha christi things or other types of things is he's always got like anadarmus's character in that one and i won't say who in this one you slowly begin to realize who you're rooting for and you realize that you're there for the underdog it's rewarding yeah if you're You have anything, I think, where you can ultimately know who you're rooting for has a slightly different ultimate satisfaction at the end.

[1513] You're in sync with Aristotle's poetics.

[1514] Like, you're now in the sacred ground of its story.

[1515] You have a protagonist and antagonist.

[1516] You know who to root for you.

[1517] Ryan, he'll listen to this and you just made him die of happiness.

[1518] Because you basically said, it's beyond Agatha Christi.

[1519] It's Aristotle.

[1520] It's Aristotle's poets.

[1521] When is it out?

[1522] When is it out?

[1523] It is out December 23rd.

[1524] It's really wild.

[1525] I mean, the last thing I did was Motherless Brooklyn.

[1526] You finish making something, then you have a year of post.

[1527] So the last time I was in front of a camera was on my film in the spring of 2018.

[1528] So we don't get in front of the camera on this one until 2021.

[1529] It was three years, not because I wasn't working, because I was editing and directing my movie.

[1530] Then there was COVID.

[1531] We get going on this.

[1532] I did have this moment.

[1533] I was like, I'm not sure I remember how to do this.

[1534] And I think kind of everybody was looking at each other like, what level are we going to on this?

[1535] What?

[1536] How funny is this?

[1537] And everybody's looking at Ryan, like, is that too much?

[1538] Kind of one of the delightful things was realizing that Daniel Craig in his DNA might be more like Blanc than Bond.

[1539] Oh, really?

[1540] He's really funny.

[1541] An old Southern gentleman?

[1542] He's a British theater actor.

[1543] You know what I mean?

[1544] I actually have to say that as iconic as Bond is, and I think he was maybe the best or one of the two best bonds ever.

[1545] I mean, Connery is Connery.

[1546] A lot of people have Bo Derek seared in their mind.

[1547] I have him in the blue swim trunks coming out of the water.

[1548] There you go.

[1549] I mean, I can see it as I look at you.

[1550] But I think that he, as great as I thought he was, his bond.

[1551] I'm more impressed by Benoit Blanc because he made this thing up.

[1552] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1553] This is his.

[1554] He created this.

[1555] And I had a hard time keeping a straight face on the set with him.

[1556] He is so funny, and he's a funny physical comedian.

[1557] I decided to just try without asking him in a moment of fear, grabbing him in a very intimate way.

[1558] And you kind of go in your mind.

[1559] I know he's just an actor like me. He's not James Bond, but I wonder if this is going to be okay.

[1560] When I grabbed him, he did the funniest sort of...

[1561] Puckered?

[1562] Yeah, he did the funniest little ass clench and look over the shoulder like a French Moliere actor or something.

[1563] You know what I mean?

[1564] I'm such a fan of him.

[1565] I'm so glad he's doing stuff like this.

[1566] One second story.

[1567] So we go to see Kristen last year on her movie in England.

[1568] The girls have never been to England.

[1569] Monat and I and the girls are in a cab.

[1570] We've just landed.

[1571] We're stuck in traffic.

[1572] There's some motorcade coming towards us.

[1573] I say to the girls, oh, look, look at their motorcycle cops, you know.

[1574] That's what gets my attention.

[1575] Well, the whole motorcade stops directly next to our car and three feet away in the back of this Rolls -Royce is Prince William.

[1576] For a good two minutes, we're all stuck in traffic.

[1577] It was not.

[1578] We've just landed.

[1579] And I go, oh, girls, there's Prince William.

[1580] We're joking like, maybe it's someone royal.

[1581] And we're like three blocks from Buckingham Palace, right?

[1582] We're just like stuck in traffic.

[1583] It's not tinted.

[1584] It's so weird.

[1585] That's really weird.

[1586] We get to the hotel, 20 minutes later, we check in.

[1587] Fucking Daniel Craig, James Bond is staying across the hall.

[1588] I'm like, girls, you don't understand what this trip thing?

[1589] What just happened to you in rapid succession?

[1590] You met the royalty and you met the most famous character of all time in the last hour.

[1591] We should go home.

[1592] If Julie Andrews had walked out with an umbrella, you would have been like, I'm in a simulation.

[1593] With St. Churchill's ghost floats by.

[1594] All right, Edward, I adore you.

[1595] I can't wait to get into another hot tub sauna situation with you.

[1596] Yeah, that was a long time.

[1597] It was too long.

[1598] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1599] There's nothing worse than being with Edward and I anywhere.

[1600] Would you agree?

[1601] We go in a hole.

[1602] Yeah, it's like you walk in and three seconds later, we're in a pit, and we just never crawl, and I love it.

[1603] Fortunately, Kristen and Shawna are equally good friends.

[1604] They're happy to have the break.

[1605] Yeah.

[1606] I think they're both.

[1607] I actually have these.

[1608] Wear yourselves out.

[1609] It's like when you bring a dog, you have a rambunctious dog, and you bring it to someone else's house with a rambunctious dog and they tire each other out.

[1610] I think that's what they see this house.

[1611] Oh, there's no question.

[1612] All right.

[1613] I love you.

[1614] I loved glass onion, a knives out mystery.

[1615] Definitely curl up with your whole family over the Christmas holiday and enjoy it on Netflix starting the 23rd.

[1616] It's a ride.

[1617] Thank you.

[1618] I adore you.

[1619] We'll geek out now about fitness.

[1620] Yes.

[1621] Off air.

[1622] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1623] So this is for Edward Norton.

[1624] Edward Norton.

[1625] Personal grievance, and I love him.

[1626] Okay.

[1627] I always grew up calling him Ed Norton.

[1628] Yeah.

[1629] But he prefers Edward.

[1630] Oh, he does.

[1631] He does.

[1632] So I call him Edward, as you should call someone what they prefer to be called.

[1633] Call you miniature mouse.

[1634] Yeah.

[1635] I mean, I think he's an Edward.

[1636] I don't think he's an Ed.

[1637] That's fair.

[1638] So I make sense.

[1639] Yeah.

[1640] But when I'm with him, I kind of want to go like, hey, Ed, have you seen that, you know, because it's shorter and I'm lazy, I guess.

[1641] that's probably just what it's about I say Monnie right a lot of times I say Monty yeah what do you think money it's so convenient yeah okay so he said that in this I'm really glad I fact check this he says the four seasons is he thought maybe owned by the Sultan of Brunei it's not I think he was thinking of the Beverly Hills Hotel is the Dorchester collection is owned by the Sultan of Brunei which is the Beverly Hills Hotel, the Plaza in Paris.

[1642] Oh, in Paris.

[1643] Well, the Plaza Athenae in Paris.

[1644] London's Dorchester, 45 Park Lane, the Coworth Park Hotel in Berkshire.

[1645] Anyway, so that is owned by the Sultan of Brunei.

[1646] Okay, so the actual definitions of cynic versus skeptic.

[1647] Oh, wonderful.

[1648] Cynic is a person who believes that people are motivated purely by self -interest rather than acting for honorable or unselfish reasons.

[1649] Okay.

[1650] Is there a second definition of that?

[1651] A member of a school of ancient Greek philosophers founded by...

[1652] That's the one I was saying.

[1653] No, I'm cheesy.

[1654] No. To me, a cynic is a misanthrope.

[1655] Like, that first statement I agree with.

[1656] I do believe all animals on planet Earth are selfishly motivated.

[1657] They're trying to get their food needs met, their water needs, their shelter needs, and their love needs.

[1658] Right.

[1659] They can, in pursuit of that, be quite benevolent and seemingly selfless.

[1660] But I know I'm one of those people that doesn't think a selfless act exists.

[1661] But that makes you a cynic then.

[1662] Even if it's a sacrifice to yourself.

[1663] Mm -hmm.

[1664] Like, you can definitely sacrifice yourself to people.

[1665] Yeah.

[1666] I've done it.

[1667] But it is selfishly motivated.

[1668] It's supporting an identity I have or a belief I have about myself that I'm the type of person that would do X, Y, or Z. But I don't think up, when I think of a cynic, I think someone's actively out to exploit a situation or benefit at the expense of someone else.

[1669] Yeah.

[1670] I get that, but this is the actual definition.

[1671] No, I'm coming to terms with that.

[1672] So perhaps you are a cynic.

[1673] I guess I am, but a cynic sounds like a misanthrope, or I had previously thought of a cynic as misanthropic.

[1674] Yeah.

[1675] A skeptic is a person inclined to question or doubt accepted opinions.

[1676] So you could be both.

[1677] Yeah.

[1678] They're different.

[1679] I mean, they're completely different.

[1680] Well, one's a pejorative and one's not, right?

[1681] A cynic is a pejorative.

[1682] If you call someone a cynic, that's a negative put down of that person.

[1683] if you're a person who thinks that a person who believes that people who are motivated purely by self -interest rather than acting for honorable or unselfish reasons is bad.

[1684] Well, I guess that honorable part's a nice caveat.

[1685] I'm just saying colloquially, if someone called you a cynic, you'd feel insulted, right?

[1686] Not if I was one.

[1687] I think if I bought into this notion, then that's who I am.

[1688] Like, I don't think I could find that a pejorative if I believe that.

[1689] I'm just saying the way it's being used currently in society that definition aside don't you think it's generally uses a pejorative yeah i guess i mean do people want to be around cynical people that's interesting probably not yeah so yeah or like um oh my god i want to sit you know with my buddy mark you're gonna love me such a cynic yeah no that doesn't sound right no yeah no sounds like he like is a glass half empty person yeah does but it is sort of glass empty to think people are motivated purely by self -interest.

[1690] Even if that's 100 % the truth, it's half -empty versus half -full, which is that people can be selfless.

[1691] Well, I guess, I guess, right.

[1692] At that point, it's if you think being selfishly motivated is negative, right?

[1693] Yeah.

[1694] Yeah, I don't.

[1695] People do.

[1696] Yeah.

[1697] You're selfishly motivated in my eyes, and you're completely kind and generous to me. Yeah.

[1698] I mean, I don't think, I don't think every act I do is, is selfish, though.

[1699] Like, I don't think I, I, I, can you think of one?

[1700] Yeah, I, I, I just found out some bad information about a friend or some sad information regarding a friend.

[1701] And I immediately went out and I, like, put together a distraction package.

[1702] I don't, that wasn't for selfish reasons.

[1703] That was to make her feel good.

[1704] Okay, you want, I can argue why it is.

[1705] Okay.

[1706] A. It's painful when someone you love is hurting.

[1707] It hurts me when you're hurting.

[1708] It hurts me when my children are hurting.

[1709] If Rob is hurting and is kids sick, it makes me sad and uncomfortable because I love him and I want him to be happy.

[1710] So if I can alleviate his situation, I'm A, bringing my own situation because I don't like it.

[1711] I don't like when you're suffering.

[1712] And I want to stop your suffering because it makes me feel bad when you're suffering.

[1713] like you feel bad right knowing your friend is suffering yeah yeah but i don't think what i'm doing is going to fix the suffering i just think it might help and it might help why not help if i can help right so that like there's the one immediate thing which is just like i want this to be lessened yeah i mean you think it's i want it to be lessened for me and i don't think that i want it to be lessened for her Her pain is sad to me. Of course.

[1714] Like I am so sad that she's in this experience.

[1715] But I'm not sad.

[1716] I'm not crying over the thing she's upset about.

[1717] And I bet it bothers you.

[1718] It bothers me when someone's in a really bad spot that I love.

[1719] Like it gives me discomfort and sadness.

[1720] Well, if you have empathy, it should bring a little bit of.

[1721] of that.

[1722] Yeah.

[1723] And so I want to make that go away.

[1724] That's one part of it that potentially self.

[1725] You're not signing on that.

[1726] That's fine.

[1727] Yeah.

[1728] I'm not.

[1729] Okay.

[1730] And then secondly, you have an identity.

[1731] You have a list of things that that you decided make you a good friend.

[1732] And so part of that is to try to help your friends.

[1733] And so you really have to do what you just did to stay in keeping with.

[1734] who you believe you are.

[1735] You're the type of person that's going to send a distraction package.

[1736] That's the kind of friend you are.

[1737] You know that about yourself.

[1738] Yeah.

[1739] And you like that about yourself, as you should.

[1740] It's a nice quality.

[1741] Yeah.

[1742] So you really have to do that because that's who you've decided you are.

[1743] You're the type of person that's going to help when your friend's in trouble.

[1744] I mean, it's a chicken or the egg, I guess.

[1745] I mean, I do like that about myself, but that's not The impetus isn't, ooh, I'll feel good if I do this right now for her.

[1746] It's, oh, man, that sucks.

[1747] Like, how can I help?

[1748] Oh, this might help.

[1749] Yeah, yeah.

[1750] I think there's so much negativity.

[1751] Oh, that makes me feel good that I did something.

[1752] Like, that's the order.

[1753] It's not, oh, I need to feel.

[1754] I don't think it's conscious.

[1755] I don't think you decide.

[1756] I'm going to uphold my identity right now.

[1757] Now, I don't think anyone's had the thought I'm going to uphold my identity.

[1758] Yeah.

[1759] But if someone's loud in a restaurant and we're with four people, my first thought is I'm going to contain that person because my friends are scared.

[1760] Now, that's just happening.

[1761] But on some level, I've decided that's my role in life.

[1762] I'm not conscious of it.

[1763] It just happens.

[1764] I go, it makes sense for me to be the one to get involved here to protect everyone.

[1765] But if I didn't have the type of identity where I thought that was my role in life and my value to my friends and what gets me love and connection, I probably wouldn't even have that impulse.

[1766] Right.

[1767] You wouldn't.

[1768] If we're at a table and some homeless person comes in with a baseball bat, your thought isn't, it's my job now to go deal with that.

[1769] You have no compulsion to do it.

[1770] It's not your job.

[1771] No. Some bad shit's going to happen, but you're not going to be the one to stop it.

[1772] Yeah, I can't.

[1773] Mm -hmm.

[1774] And you're going to hope someone else does.

[1775] Yeah.

[1776] And because I would imagine, I'm saying, I'm suggesting because that's not the role you've given yourself.

[1777] You're not the one responsible for that.

[1778] That's not what people are looking to you for.

[1779] If I had a kid with me. Mm -hmm.

[1780] Yeah, my job is to protect that kid.

[1781] So I would do whatever I needed to do to protect that kid.

[1782] Right.

[1783] I'm only, I'm just talking about a group of people.

[1784] So there's five people.

[1785] There's someone in the.

[1786] group that's kind of we know who's going to do that in every group it's already been decided and i'm just saying what's what's decided it is what those people have decided their roles in life are and why people count on them and love them and what they think is a value about them so i'm just the person in that thing i'm not thinking of it that's just my time to go do that thing but underneath that of it all is at some point in my life i've decided this is the quality i have that people like.

[1787] And so I'm just going to always do that.

[1788] Not that people like, that you like.

[1789] Well, it should be.

[1790] The gifts.

[1791] No, I want people in my life.

[1792] I want people to love me. I don't need me. I have me. I'm stuck with me. Well, that's...

[1793] I need to attract people so that I have...

[1794] I mean, that's bad.

[1795] That's like, you should be doing things for intrinsic value.

[1796] Ultimately, I'm saying if you're totally self -actualized.

[1797] We accept things about ourselves.

[1798] We need food.

[1799] We need water.

[1800] We need shelter.

[1801] we need love yeah we're a social animal the needing love part is actually more important than the food water and shelter because because we're a social animal the love part is what gets us food shelter and water sure it's an instinct it's absolutely vital yeah that's right yeah but i know but i'm saying we have we are constantly demonstrating value you to one another to stay in a group so we can survive.

[1802] Yes, I totally agree with that.

[1803] And everyone in a group has a role that is the thing that keeps them invited into the group.

[1804] Sure.

[1805] Yeah.

[1806] That's all true.

[1807] But I believe in selfless acts.

[1808] I don't think people are selfless or selfish.

[1809] I think we all have all of that.

[1810] I think there's a ton of people whose actions are very, very selfish.

[1811] And those are people, in my opinion, that don't have a great barometer of how to be included in a group.

[1812] They haven't figured out how to be appealing to other people.

[1813] I think everyone wants love and they want adoration and they want attention.

[1814] And everyone's employing different strategies.

[1815] And other people have not been smart enough to go when I behave selfishly.

[1816] When I get a pizza and I give you one slice and I take eight slices, you're probably not going to want to have.

[1817] out with me. I want all eight slices.

[1818] That's what the human wants.

[1819] But I know enough that I prioritize this connection with you above my desire for eight of the nine slices.

[1820] Right.

[1821] That'd be a weird pizza that was cut into nine slices.

[1822] I recognize that.

[1823] If you're OCD, that sucks as an example.

[1824] My frustration is like it's labeled negative.

[1825] It is in our society.

[1826] It's just labeled negative.

[1827] But that's a negative thing.

[1828] And, you know, selfishness is bad.

[1829] Yeah.

[1830] Is, I think, incomplete and kind of a little bit of a binary fairy tale.

[1831] Yeah.

[1832] I don't know.

[1833] We got so, I don't think selfishness is necessarily bad.

[1834] And I think selflessness exists.

[1835] Yeah.

[1836] Okay.

[1837] So, oh, we talked about Edward, ding, ding, ding.

[1838] But Edward Albie, a playwright who wrote.

[1839] zoo story.

[1840] It reminded me in college, I think it was like maybe my last scene that I had to do.

[1841] I did a scene from zoo story.

[1842] Oh, really?

[1843] Yeah.

[1844] What is zoo story?

[1845] It's a play, but it's a bunch of different animals?

[1846] No, no. You weren't like in a giraffe costume or anything.

[1847] No, it's intense.

[1848] Is it like Neil LaBute kind of?

[1849] More than Neil LeBute?

[1850] I would say more.

[1851] More than Neil LeBute?

[1852] I mean, Neil LaBute is more realism.

[1853] This is a little more absurd.

[1854] I was really proud of it.

[1855] It was the last, it was my senior year was the last thing and it felt like I culminated.

[1856] Oh, wonderful.

[1857] Yeah.

[1858] Did they, did they give you grades for that?

[1859] You get like an A or a B on your performance?

[1860] Yeah, I got an A. Oh, my God.

[1861] A plus?

[1862] I don't remember, I think.

[1863] 5 .0.

[1864] Oh, he talks about the New York taxi system being corrupt.

[1865] A racket.

[1866] Yeah.

[1867] Mafioso.

[1868] You know when Cohen is an owner of many medallions?

[1869] Yeah, it's a stinky industry.

[1870] I know there's some really sad articles.

[1871] There's one called How Reckless Loans Devastated a Generation of Taxi drivers.

[1872] I don't need to read it, but it's a New York Times article, and it's sad and gets into that and how like all these.

[1873] They're exploiting the drivers and stuff.

[1874] Yeah, and then a bunch of them committed suicide.

[1875] Yeah, it's sad.

[1876] They ended up having, like, owing all this money.

[1877] Oh, Jesus.

[1878] But they thought, they were just like taking advantage of stuff.

[1879] bad and they're not like immigrants what's his name Cohen Michael Michael Cohen did you watch the you watch the fall well junior doc I didn't finish oh you didn't finish so you didn't get to the Michael Cohen part no of course he comes into it oh my god oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah this is the thing that I really like that drives me a little nuts you know people like kind of for a second liked Michael Well, he's likable.

[1880] Like, when you see him on, I've felt this way, at least, watching, like, CNN and they bring him on as a pundit.

[1881] He's a gregarious, likable guy.

[1882] You know, he almost acts like he's kind of dumb.

[1883] I don't find him likable, personally.

[1884] Let's use a different example.

[1885] Like, the guy who I was like, fuck, this guy's likable, even though I hated him when he was in his role, was who was the head of the, like, communications under Trump?

[1886] He lasted for, like, nine days or something.

[1887] Oh, and Scaremucci?

[1888] Yes.

[1889] Scaramucci.

[1890] Have you ever seen Scaramucci interviewed?

[1891] I mean, back then I did.

[1892] I don't remember.

[1893] I couldn't stand him when he was addressing the press.

[1894] Yeah.

[1895] And he's just so insanely likable.

[1896] Like when you see him interviewed, you're like, this is a very likable guy.

[1897] In the way that, remember, we interviewed the attorney for the victims of Epstein?

[1898] And he said, yeah, go out to lunch with him.

[1899] It was very confusing.

[1900] Like, he's super likable.

[1901] For sure.

[1902] I mean, Epstein, to me, that makes sense, like, because he, he has to lure people in.

[1903] That requires a charisma.

[1904] Uh -huh.

[1905] These people, to me, don't.

[1906] They're, like, Cohen.

[1907] Yeah.

[1908] To me, they're, like, brash and, like, so...

[1909] It's masculine.

[1910] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1911] I don't like that, to me, is not likable quality.

[1912] Yeah, well, let's dust off toxic masculinity.

[1913] It probably applies here.

[1914] Yeah.

[1915] Have you started the Giselle, Giselle, why do you say your name, Giselle?

[1916] It's Maxwell, her last name's Maxwell, yeah, Gaelain.

[1917] I think it's Gaelain.

[1918] Yes, yes, yeah.

[1919] I think it's Gileane.

[1920] Gailene, that sounds perfect.

[1921] Let's hear.

[1922] Gillain Maxwell.

[1923] Yeah, good job, Monica.

[1924] So you haven't started that one.

[1925] No. I'm about halfway through.

[1926] Is it good?

[1927] Yeah.

[1928] Really?

[1929] Yeah, no one's going to like this, but I guess before you get mad at me, watch it.

[1930] And then see if you're still mad at me. She's a monster.

[1931] Let's start there.

[1932] Fucking monster.

[1933] Maybe, in fact, there's a couple of the prosecutors and one of the, a couple of the victims who say she's worse than him.

[1934] Because really she made it, without her, it probably couldn't have even been what it was.

[1935] Yeah.

[1936] So let's just say that, total monster.

[1937] And you see this little girl grow up with this really narcissistic father.

[1938] and he himself was a Epstein -esque character.

[1939] I mean, he was fucking everyone.

[1940] He met.

[1941] He's sitting on young women.

[1942] That's her dad.

[1943] And he brings her everywhere.

[1944] Like, clearly the dad loved her beyond believe.

[1945] They had a very close relationship.

[1946] And so, you know, you're watching that history of hers.

[1947] And you, minimally, you go, yeah.

[1948] That makes sense.

[1949] I totally understand how Epstein.

[1950] Stine was appealing to her.

[1951] Immediately filled that role.

[1952] It was right after her father died unexpectedly.

[1953] And again, it's like the thing I just said about Hitler.

[1954] It doesn't help to just say she's evil.

[1955] Like there's so much more there.

[1956] There's so much more explanation than she's evil.

[1957] And it's kind of fascinating.

[1958] Yeah.

[1959] I'm not under any illusion that any of these people doing these horrible things haven't had a crazy backstory.

[1960] Well, right.

[1961] And I'm saying it's crazy enough that I have compassion for her as a monster.

[1962] Yeah.

[1963] And I think that's my goal in life.

[1964] I really do.

[1965] As dicey as that is to say, I think my ultimate goal, I think what a Buddhist, what Jesus Christ would do, what anyone that we would admire would really aspire to is like compassion even for the monsters.

[1966] Yeah.

[1967] And retribution.

[1968] Of course.

[1969] She should die in prison.

[1970] Like that's, yeah, those, for me, those two things aren't related.

[1971] Like, people have to, they have to experience the consequences they've created.

[1972] Yeah.

[1973] But you can have compassion for the person that someone's life, they started as a baby.

[1974] And they got roomed along the way.

[1975] And now they're going to die in rotten prison.

[1976] This is a bummer of a story for any baby.

[1977] Of course.

[1978] It's so sad.

[1979] It's all so sad.

[1980] Yeah.

[1981] And I also think it's okay if you are a person who doesn't have compassion for them because you're affected.

[1982] Like, I think it's much easier to have compassion.

[1983] when we're removed.

[1984] Like it's, you know.

[1985] Oh, if we're not the victims.

[1986] Or the parents of a victim or the, whatever.

[1987] Like, it's easier to.

[1988] Well, look, yeah, I've, look, Christians would say forgiveness is the answer to everything, right?

[1989] And you see, like, we, again, the radio lab, the man whose daughter was raped and murdered by this guy who had some mental health issues and developed this crazy relationship with him while he was in prison.

[1990] Yeah.

[1991] And I look at that as the apex of a human's existence.

[1992] It's incredible.

[1993] It is.

[1994] And it's so much more powerful.

[1995] Oh, yeah.

[1996] I've tried to find my way there with the people in my life who have victimized me, you know.

[1997] Some of them not great.

[1998] Some of them I'm kind of there.

[1999] Yeah.

[2000] I think there's a handful of Jeffrey Dalmers, right, that are probably born biologically as cannibals or something.

[2001] Well, we have psychopaths.

[2002] I mean, that's real.

[2003] Right.

[2004] So I guess I'm speaking of everyone that's not in the same.

[2005] psychopath category and that people that just along the way get fucked up get really fucked up yeah and again and no one goes to the store and they look at the shelf and it's like great fulfilled life oh fucked up existence a victimizer predator i'm picking that one off the shelf yeah although it is really interesting in race to 35 we had Andrew Solomon on who wrote far from the tree oh right what time i'm in the middle of so beautiful beautiful book yeah great recommendation And he interviewed a bunch of people, for that and some other stuff, a bunch of the parents of mass shootings.

[2006] Oh, wonderful.

[2007] Yeah.

[2008] And, you know, there's so much there that's fascinating and so sad.

[2009] But he said it's interesting.

[2010] Most of those kids grew up in pretty wholesome environments.

[2011] Like, you want the answer to be that it was bad, that it was fucked up, that there were stepdad, that there was this, and he's like, in a lot of these cases, that's not true.

[2012] That doesn't mean, you know, they didn't have any hardship, of course.

[2013] Well, for some people, school is as destructive as home life is.

[2014] You're there equal amounts of time.

[2015] Right.

[2016] You're never justified.

[2017] I'm making no case for ever justifying anyone, okay?

[2018] But I witnessed in my lifetime, in my 12 years in public education, I witnessed at least a dozen human beings be destroyed by the school.

[2019] I mean, really destroyed and evil.

[2020] I would prefer my childhood experience to their school experience.

[2021] Robbie in Chicago, do you see kids just get absolutely fucking destroyed?

[2022] not i mean i was in the suburb so not a pretty privileged suburb yeah there was like a handful of kids that got beat up i mean three times a week in my junior high like anyone who wanted to prove their shit went to these three kids they got humiliated in front of every girl yeah three times a week they got shit thrown at the back of their head all day long in school for fucking seven hours i don't know how they handled it and clearly some don't but no they don't but also There's a level of torture that can happen in school that is just brutal.

[2023] Right.

[2024] But also in a lot of these cases with the mass shooters, the peers will say that's unexpected.

[2025] Yeah, they were like a loner, but it wasn't, it wasn't that scenario.

[2026] Right, right.

[2027] So I'm all to say.

[2028] Again, I'm not making excuses for anyone.

[2029] No, I know.

[2030] I'm just, it's all to say that sometimes people are fucked up chemically, all kinds of reasons why.

[2031] and it's not necessarily based in their experience.

[2032] Having been victimized.

[2033] Yeah.

[2034] I guess, yeah, I'm caught in my what I witnessed.

[2035] And what I witnessed, when I hear kids go berserk, I was shocked that more kids didn't go berserk.

[2036] It's funny, that part doesn't ever seem to enter the, when there's a mass shooting, it's immediately a gun debate and it's a mental health debate.

[2037] Yeah.

[2038] I don't hear the, like, what's the system in place to monitor kids who are getting destroyed?

[2039] No, but that's what I'm saying.

[2040] Like, in a lot of these cases, they do ask peers.

[2041] They'll say, like, does this make sense?

[2042] Was that person bullied a lot?

[2043] And many of them, they say no. And they don't know what's happening at home.

[2044] But then that's why these two pieces I find interesting, when a lot of the peers say, not really, like, yeah, they were kind of off on their own.

[2045] But no, it wasn't this like what you're talking about, this torture.

[2046] And then you talk to the parents.

[2047] And they also, it's a pretty wholesome environment.

[2048] It's very curious how this person became that.

[2049] It's scary.

[2050] It's sad.

[2051] Yeah, you're right.

[2052] And then on this whole spectrum between Dahmer and the innocent boy who gets destroyed, you have this bizarre group somewhere, I don't know, on that spectrum of like these incels.

[2053] And they're just fucking furious that they can't get laid.

[2054] Yeah.

[2055] That's a lot of it.

[2056] Entitlement.

[2057] Okay.

[2058] This is, I wonder if I can lay this out.

[2059] Aaron and I were talking about, Aaron and I are always talking about how fucked up men are.

[2060] It was our favorite topic, right?

[2061] And of course, where we came from, when you're weak, you're anything, you're gay, right?

[2062] This is what we were called.

[2063] And so we're regularly talking about, like the example I think we've even talked about in here when he was here is when he was in the hospital, his friends, his super masculine Detroit friends, would text him something.

[2064] It's kind of sweet and concerning, and then they'd be so uncomfortable that then they'd finish it with a bunch of insults.

[2065] Right.

[2066] Like, this was this pattern.

[2067] It's like, oh, my God, they just can't say, I'm worried about you.

[2068] Yeah.

[2069] And then similarly, the last time he was visiting, we were talking about how men will make fun of other men who love their wives.

[2070] Right.

[2071] Right.

[2072] And we were jokingly saying like, oh, my gosh, well, fucking nothing gayer than a guy is fucking in love with his wife.

[2073] Like, what could be gayer?

[2074] This was our joke.

[2075] Like, can you imagine someone saying that?

[2076] Well, there's this podcaster, Fuentes.

[2077] I didn't really know about him.

[2078] Do you know about him?

[2079] Do you know about him, Robbie?

[2080] It seems like you wouldn't know of him.

[2081] He's a younger dude.

[2082] Fuentes.

[2083] He's a white nationalist, anti -Semi -racist.

[2084] This is the guy Trump had dinner with.

[2085] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2086] And he recently came out and said it's super gay to have sex with a woman.

[2087] And Aaron sent it to me. I was like.

[2088] Oh, my God, that was our joke.

[2089] Oh, my God.

[2090] That was our fucking joke.

[2091] Here, I can read you that, yeah, the headline that was in a bunch of different magazines yesterday.

[2092] Men having sex with women is gay, claims straight, quote, in quote, straight right -wing podcaster Nick Fuentes.

[2093] And so then I was like, well, who is this guy?

[2094] And then I found out he is a leader of incels.

[2095] Oh.

[2096] But he says it's gay to have sex with women.

[2097] That's how fucking.

[2098] It's a sane.

[2099] insane this whole thing is yeah it's crazy this guy's so fucking gay he's constantly fucking women and what could be gayer god that is nuts oh my god men are so weird is there anything like that with women like am i missing out on anything like when you guys do your your women's dinners and your women's hangs at your apartment like is there any bizarre there because there can be in groups of men like it gets It's so us and them and us.

[2100] And then you just start wondering, like, do these dudes just solely want to be with other men?

[2101] And would they really, would the dream be that they just were in love with men?

[2102] But for some reason, they either can't admit that or they just are not wired that way.

[2103] Like, what's going on?

[2104] Like, I love dudes.

[2105] I like going to the track.

[2106] I have a lot of guy friends.

[2107] I just, I don't relate when it gets to that zone.

[2108] No, but I will say, I do think a lot of women prefer being around women.

[2109] I don't think they're sexually attracted to women.

[2110] But I think they prefer that type of connection over the male -female connection.

[2111] In the energy of that relationship.

[2112] Yeah.

[2113] I think that's pretty common.

[2114] I don't know if I feel that.

[2115] I mean, I have so many.

[2116] Male friends.

[2117] I have a lot of male friends, but I also have so many amazing female friendships.

[2118] Yeah.

[2119] But Anthony Exactly I have very close I hope me Yes I have very close male friends So yeah so I might be an anomaly there But not that because some people are like I'm a guy's girl And then I hate that And then and that to me is sad Because they want to be That's Yaline Gaylein Oh Gaylein that's how we say it Geelaine Geelaine You want to You know you feel like that will be give you approval for men it's sad but also that is someone who like says they prefer to be around men than women and i'm sure that exists don't care me wrong that either like eric will say he eric far prefers to be around women than men yes yeah yeah yeah i feel like i'm 50 50 yeah maybe leaning a bit more towards women yeah no you like a lot of men time yeah there's nothing straighter than fucking your buddy it's gay as fuck to be with a woman but there's nothing straighter than fucking your your male friend well one plus one equals two i if you don't fuck your best friend i think i'm i think i'm 65 35 yeah okay female to male what are you rob what do you wabby i get along with women i think yeah well very sweet boy i'm like 60 40 i think women but i have I mean, but I have more, I have more male friends, but I think I have better relationships with female friends.

[2120] Yeah.

[2121] Yeah.

[2122] Yeah.

[2123] Anyway.

[2124] Anyhow.

[2125] Okay.

[2126] Oh, one last fact.

[2127] Okay.

[2128] The last time we had Edward Norton on.

[2129] Edward Norton.

[2130] Edward Norton was October 28, 2019.

[2131] Three days before Halloween.

[2132] Wow.

[2133] Hallow Zim, three years ago.

[2134] What do we think about that?

[2135] Was that longer than you had thought?

[2136] Um, no. I felt like it was more recent that we had him on.

[2137] Time is gone.

[2138] Right.

[2139] Yeah.

[2140] It was pre -COVID.

[2141] It was pre -COVID before we knew.

[2142] March.

[2143] What did I just read about that?

[2144] About pre -COV?

[2145] Ooh, that sounds gross, like pre -com.

[2146] Pre -C.

[2147] PC.

[2148] You can get pregnant from pre -COVID.

[2149] Wow.

[2150] Yeah.

[2151] I mean, by now you would have already had a child if you got pregnant pre -COVID.

[2152] Can you get pregnant from pre -com?

[2153] They try to scare you and say that.

[2154] Natalie claims that.

[2155] Yeah, I don't know.

[2156] I don't know the science behind it.

[2157] But yes, when you're in sex ed and you're a younger man, the main thing they're trying to let you know is like, hey, the pull -out method doesn't work because your pre -com.

[2158] I don't have it.

[2159] I want it.

[2160] But I don't have it.

[2161] But what's the difference?

[2162] Is it just like a sperm before?

[2163] So I think the seminal fluid is leaking out, but not the sperm.

[2164] But then you can't get pregnant Exactly, but apparently there's probably some There's a low percentage that you could If you're like, testicles have a leak or something Sure, or maybe even you blasted earlier in the day And there's still some live sperm in your Vaz deference, your urethra Studies indicate the majority of pre -ejaculate fluid Has dead or no sperm at all But it is possible But it's possible But again, we're not advising anyone But how many minutes before does it come out?

[2165] Well, that's what I'm saying.

[2166] I have a couple buddies that said the pre -comes wild.

[2167] Like, it's right out of the gates.

[2168] And I'm like, this is so hot.

[2169] It's basically like you're lubricating like a woman would.

[2170] That's such an exciting element.

[2171] And I feel very robbed that I'm not.

[2172] Do you think it's like evolutionary to lubricate the woman?

[2173] Perhaps.

[2174] Or lubricate the urethra so that when the sperm comes flying out, it's nice and ready?

[2175] I guess it would be more for the woman so that you could have sex and spread your seed.

[2176] It'd be more for the woman.

[2177] Like it'd be more to help the - It'd be a bit to get pregnant.

[2178] Yeah.

[2179] Anywho, I think it's what bolstered my confidence in my pull -out game.

[2180] Sure.

[2181] You know, I think if I did suffer, not suffer, benefit from that.

[2182] Yeah.

[2183] Sounds like.

[2184] Yeah.

[2185] Come to find out, I really wish I had a foreskin and some of that, what we talked about.

[2186] about it really such a gross word but you know some pre -covid come to find out there he goes oh wow come to find out i still liked the frightful one a little better a little bit better yeah yeah yeah it's very uncommon someone would help with your luggage like that uh all right i love you love you follow armchair expert on the wondry app amazon music or wherever you get your podcast you can listen to every episode of armchair expert early and ad free right now by joining wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2187] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.