The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett XX
[0] I couldn't get it out in my mind.
[1] I had to get hold of a psychologist.
[2] I was just like, this can't go on.
[3] Jamie Carragher is a Liverpool stalwart, 730 -odd appearance.
[4] It's never going to be another Jamie Carragher.
[5] He's a winner.
[6] He will, you know.
[7] That's just ridiculous.
[8] I'm no huge Ronaldo fan.
[9] I think that's pretty obvious.
[10] It's sad for him, the way people are speaking about Messi towards the end of his career and Ronaldo, and it's completely different.
[11] It's almost like he feels like he's not rated him.
[12] I've got so much admiration for him.
[13] for his mental strength, to be able to withstand pressure, criticism, and I saw too many players never recover from that.
[14] I knew from the first time I played football, for me, it winning was all that mattered.
[15] If you say to me, what do I miss most of being a professional footballer?
[16] It's women.
[17] I'd rather cheat and win than not win.
[18] When Jamie loses a game, is he different?
[19] I punished myself when I didn't perform well, and I regret that, but there was always that thing of, am I good enough?
[20] I was just driving myself mad when I was at my absolute peak and best.
[21] That's when I needed more help.
[22] The feeling your stomach is that bad.
[23] You just, you're going to be there.
[24] I always remember, and the only time I've ever did this in my whole career, much of your success has been a result of a winning mentality in some of the toughest moments.
[25] Where does that come from?
[26] The reason why I've become the player I have.
[27] I think it's...
[28] Jamie, when I start this podcast, they usually start with people's childhoods, but as I was reading through your story, I think this is the first time I'm going to start before the person was even born because I read that there was a possibility that you weren't even going to be born because of a, I guess a misdiagnosis that your mother was given about you.
[29] Can you take me back to that story?
[30] Yeah, that was, what I'd have been about, what I'd say, would have been about 1977, obviously, 78 I was born and my mom had two miscarriages.
[31] before me and then when I she fell pregnant with me the doctor's nurses didn't know what was wrong but they knew something was wrong and initially they were saying we think your child has got spina bifta and I think what I'm saying it in those days maybe I don't know if it's the same now there's a chance you could terminate the pregnancy if the baby was whatever you know and my mum was I think was given that option and my mum's very holy I think it's the right word probably at that stage in her early 20s she would be going to church every day she still goes every Sunday now so her thing was now if the word she says to me was if our Lord wants me to have a baby who's got spine a biff there or maybe something else that's that's what's been decided for me that's fine it to my child I love that child and what I find fascinating when you think of sort of today is that the closer it got to me being born it wasn't spina bifter but he still knew something wasn't right and it wasn't until I was born that I had basically my insides were on the outside so I have gastro -skeitis it's called the condition.
[32] Now I've got a big scar right across my stomach.
[33] I mean, if someone has that condition today and plenty of babies do, it's a really small scar.
[34] But the thing that I think is fascinating or just makes me think, wow, on my mum's side, is the fact that as soon as I was born, I was rushed away, straight away to Alderhey Children's Hospital, which is still going strong today in Liverpool.
[35] I'm because of what I've gone to achieve.
[36] I've got a real link with the hospital.
[37] And through our charity, we actually funded the ward that looks after babies who have what I had.
[38] But I get rushed away to children's hospital and my mum doesn't know anything.
[39] There's no phones, there's no...
[40] She's still in Versaacquil hospital.
[41] Obviously, I've got a problem straight up to Alder Hey, my dad goes straight.
[42] But again, the technology isn't like that.
[43] And I just think, how long it must there have been before when my mum knew I was all right, what I had, how quickly that's to go?
[44] You can't quite fathom that when you think about today and how quickly we can get in touch with different people.
[45] So I just think about what was going through my mum's mind there for the next hour or two until, you know, she probably found out everything was okay.
[46] Your knowledge of that story and that experience, has that left a lasting, impact or impression on you in terms of the decision your mum made or being whisked away or the operation or having this guy or anything like that has that left any sort of impression on you at all?
[47] Yes.
[48] All about my mum, I would say.
[49] You know, to have had two miscarriages, to have that going through your third pregnancy, to think you could lose the baby, no one can quite give you a definitive answer about what's going on with, you know, this child in your stomach.
[50] And then to not know straight away.
[51] And I just, I only know of now and when people have kids and have had my own kids and everything's so documented, isn't it?
[52] Whether it's, you know, the first picture, Instagram, you're there with the baby when the baby's born.
[53] I wasn't actually, maybe we can get to that later.
[54] I wasn't there for my firstborn.
[55] And that's something I do regret.
[56] But I just think about how, how my mum must have felt and sort of me looking at my mum because I've been very lucky the life I now lead the experience of I've had you know it's not there if my mum doesn't make you know certain decisions not long with my dad of course but yeah for me want to sort of make that decision and I'm still here today what about your dad what um talk to me about him in his character and what impact that had on you before the age of 10 is a real big character yeah he's a real big character yeah he's You know, he'll be in the pub, he'll have a debate, he'll get up and sing, he'll have an argument with someone, he's like a real, larger than life sort of character.
[57] Who did you care about impressing the most?
[58] Just not even in the context of your parents, but just who were you trying to impress when you were young?
[59] Because for me, you know, it might have been my older brothers, it could have been my dad, it could have been, you know, a teacher.
[60] Who are you trying to impress?
[61] I mean, the obvious one is to say is my dad, because he was the one who was always there in terms of, You're talking about football?
[62] Yeah, yeah.
[63] My mum never watched me play football.
[64] Okay.
[65] I mean, my mum must have watched me play five times in my life.
[66] And that's nothing to do with not being proud of me or not being there.
[67] But I know it's not the done thing now, but it was almost the case of my dad took us to football, and my mum stayed at all, you know, and did what we associate with women things.
[68] And now, obviously, that type of comment or them thought, certainly back then be classed as sexist now rightly so but that was just the way it was I don't think my mum was sort of badgering my dad to go to the football she always just felt well okay that's your thing to take them to the football whether to be going to watch Everton as young kids or you know play me games for you know amateur teams but little boys and I want to start on that journey and when he took you to football did he have high standards and expectations for you when you were playing?
[69] Yes, but I think that came not because he was so desperate for me to be a football I think that became because I think he knew pretty early on I had something.
[70] You know, my dad had played football, my dad had watched football.
[71] My dad was a massive football fan.
[72] So he'd done everything you could do in football in terms of played amateur football, managed amateur teams, went to watch Everton home and away.
[73] So he was just, he was obsessed with, football.
[74] So from a young age, I think he was quite tough for me a couple of times that stand out only because he knew the standards I could get to.
[75] And one of those times is like a story I put in my book.
[76] And I think sometimes when my dad listens back, I think he, I think he doesn't like me to say the story because I think he looks back at it and thinks, oh, I wish I hadn't done that.
[77] But I've got no problem with it.
[78] You know, I think it's part of my life, part of my story that basically I was seven years of age and I didn't want to play in a game.
[79] It It was that cold.
[80] It was freezing.
[81] It was hailstone.
[82] And I got tackled and I pretended that I was here crying and come off.
[83] But he, me, my dad, and I'm the same, we couldn't suffer.
[84] Beluffers or phonies, we'd say, you know, that type of thing.
[85] And he knew I was putting it on.
[86] And let's just say it was the last time I did.
[87] Well, I read that part in your memoir.
[88] Yeah.
[89] In your memoir, it says there was some raining football boots when you got home.
[90] Yeah.
[91] Maybe there's a little bit of artistic license there with the guy who wrote it.
[92] But no, I think it was that.
[93] And I think throughout my football career, I'm not talking about feigning injure, I'm talking about the big thing for me and the big thing for me that I want to pass on to my son is having character.
[94] That for me will take you to places that you don't think are possible if you've got that personality, mental strength, character.
[95] I think that overrides a lot of things.
[96] That's really why I'm asking these questions, because I could see throughout your career that much of your success has been a result of a winning mentality and character in some of the toughest moments.
[97] And that's not the case with all the footballists that I've spoken to.
[98] That's just the case with some of them.
[99] And even when I sat with Peter Crouch, he referenced you as being so set on winning and so obsessed with winning that you didn't even, that he didn't think you were ever enjoying it.
[100] And so I'm trying to figure out.
[101] And you smile when I say that because you know, it's true, I've heard you say that subsequently.
[102] where does that come from?
[103] Where does that character and that obsession with victory at all costs to the point that you cause suffering in yourself?
[104] Where does that come from?
[105] I think my dad, and whether you're born with something like that, maybe, you know, you speak to a lot of probably more people who could give you that onset than I do and maybe have a better insight into it to me in some ways.
[106] I'm not quite sure, but I knew from the first time I played football, for me winning was all that mattered and if you say to me what do I miss most about being a professional footballer it's winning it's not the taking part it's not the training a lot of people always say this I hate footballers say this all the time I miss the dressing room I don't miss the dressing room I miss the dressing room after the game and we win that like oh you've done something together and I listen to Crouchy's podcast because I've seen it pop up somewhere I think was made online or something Peter Crouch said Stephen Gerard and James Amy Carriger, writ off players after 15.
[107] I thought, I better listen to this one.
[108] But what Peas of Crouch said is right.
[109] And he's probably looking at me a little bit.
[110] Dumb Files, I can't understand that.
[111] But I can't understand him.
[112] For me, Bill Shankly said football is a matter of life and death.
[113] And I don't think he meant that.
[114] I think that was obviously tongue -in -cheek at a time.
[115] And no football club knows that.
[116] statement is not true more than Liverpool football club but it's very close to being true that's the way I see it that's football for me it's a way of life and winning is all that matters and for me when I played I'd rather cheat and win than not win and I don't think I'll ever be any different and that's why I think football has taken me to places in my life that almost brings a tear to my eye but it's always taking me to places where I'm like I don't feel like I'm ever going to get over it in all the results or something hasn't gone well you mentioned that that post -match feeling is the best and potentially the feeling you miss but I've also heard you describe it as relief you know and that's an interesting thing because people would think the post -match victory feeling would be euphoria and elation but for you to describe it as relief is a curious word because I knew how bad I'd feel if we didn't win or it hadn't gone well it was almost relief that I'm not going to feel like that for the next two or three days because I would I think I punished myself a little bit when I didn't perform well or we didn't win and I regret that but I don't know if I could have done anything different it was what it was me you know what I spoke to a side at one stage I spoke to I had to I had to I wasn't asked to I had to get hold of a psychologist sports psychologists that were new because what I was doing to myself was I was just driving myself mad really with the standards I was expecting of myself and this I must say was not when I was not playing well in short of conference this was when I was at my absolute peak and best that's when I needed more help because I got to a stage where I felt I couldn't make a mistake if I didn't play well I thought we were going to lose because I wasn't daft I was playing at my best.
[117] I was a huge part of the team.
[118] There was sort of me at the back and Stevie Gerard at the front, if you like.
[119] And there was lots of other great players around there, of course.
[120] But I knew I was a huge influence in the Raffa Benitez era.
[121] And I'd go into big games thinking if I don't play well today, we're not going to win.
[122] And if I made a mistake, and I always remember the mistake I made, it was a way of Athletical Madrid.
[123] Champions League group game, we're winning one -nil, we're under pressure constantly.
[124] and I'm playing really well I'm in control that was me and my elements away from home in Europe for Liverpool trying to get that clean sheet organised and talking to everyone and a long ball and I just misjudged it and he scored and in the airport on the way home I was just like this can't go on this has got to stop you know that what I'm actually doing to myself I've played great I've made a little mistake you know they've capitalised on it but you can't put yourself through that what was the symptoms that you were confronting in that moment why what couldn't carry on so you'd made that mistake you're in the airport you're on the plane whatever what is the what's happening I couldn't get it out of my mind I couldn't I'd go like two nights when I was sleeping I mean when I say not to sleep I might get a couple of hours I'll be like constantly on my mind and wake up it was the first thing I think about and I was just like what am I doing to myself but how would you stop it But the fascinating thing was when I spoke to the sports psychologist that guy called Bill Beswick and I knew him from the England squad after speaking to out of that and then it got to the stage where I spoke to him probably two or three times a season almost like I reflect and you know what's gone on I couldn't change we actually got to the bottom of actually this is what's making you who you are this is the drive to sort of If you did probably dismiss mistakes or not too bothered or I'll be fine next week, that wouldn't make you, I wouldn't make you who you are.
[125] And I could still never shake it off.
[126] I couldn't.
[127] But I almost, by speaking to him, it made me understand and accept that's what I was.
[128] So I still went through turmoil if I didn't play well, if I made a mistake.
[129] I always wonder if that was like a byproduct of being a local player.
[130] I always think, what would I have been like if I had played for Ashtonville or Tottenham or, you know, I didn't know that many people, you know, it felt like you were playing for the club of the supporters or your family and friends, really, you know.
[131] Did you ever feel anxiety in those moments, the feeling of anxiety?
[132] So when something is plaguing you so much that you almost feel that kind of sense of nervous energy that keeps you up at night and you feel it in your stomach?
[133] No. It was never anxiety.
[134] I would say anger, and that I want to put this rise.
[135] It's like, I didn't even want to sleep, I want to get to training the next day.
[136] Did that come out in your home life?
[137] Because it's hard not to take that home with you.
[138] Yeah, I think it will have done.
[139] Yeah.
[140] Yeah, 100%.
[141] I remember something came up a year or two ago on it, on Twitter about a group of players or a same player, or may have been a manager, went out and had a meal.
[142] or a few drinks after they'd lost and there was this big debate on Twitter well why shouldn't they you know so fan you know what fans are like he shouldn't be like he shouldn't go out and there was this a few big debate and I think Gary Linnick mentioned something that I've never not change I've never changed me plans on the back of results okay that that sounds nice I thought it was unbelievable I would change plans every single week if that game didn't go well so that's where it was have affected my home life.
[143] So in terms of organising a night out, going for a meal with friends, whatever it may be, I couldn't show me face if we'd have lost and I played poorly.
[144] Not a chance.
[145] And I couldn't believe that some players could just carry on with the life.
[146] I'd be a bit like, oh no. No. Because the feeling in your stomach is that bad.
[147] You don't even want to be, you don't want to be there.
[148] You don't be with people.
[149] You don't want to speak.
[150] You know, that's how much it got me. And I go back to that.
[151] you know, would it have been different at another club.
[152] I wouldn't never have wanted to play for another club.
[153] But that is the one thing I do think about.
[154] Would it have results and performances affected me differently?
[155] Do you come home after, you know, losing a game or something?
[156] You got your family there, your kids around.
[157] Hey!
[158] I mean, to be fair, my kids were quite young when I was still playing.
[159] But there was one game I'd stands out when I couldn't get out of something.
[160] I was opening a restaurant.
[161] I opened a restaurant about 10 or 15 years ago called, Kathy Sport, England, in Liverpool.
[162] And the two times we opened, those two games, I didn't play well.
[163] And in my head, before the game, I'm thinking, I've got to play well in this game because people will think, if I don't play well, I've got my mind somewhere else.
[164] And I was probably too focused on the game in some ways.
[165] And then I had to go and almost open the restaurants and there was people there.
[166] And I remember the second one, it was like, no. I went, I was there 20 minutes.
[167] I was like, I've got to go.
[168] If I spoke to Nicola, which I might have done, but I wouldn't tell you before this, I asked the question.
[169] And I said, when Jamie loses a game, is he different?
[170] And what's he like?
[171] What would she have said to me?
[172] 100%.
[173] Yeah.
[174] 100%.
[175] What would she have said, do you reckon?
[176] He's not there when I'm talking to him.
[177] I think she'd probably say that.
[178] Maybe now at different times, but I would be in a trance.
[179] I'd just be sort of daydreamings, people would be, speaking to me and it's probably best you to leave me alone and not try and get my mind off it because I couldn't even if I did get my mind off it I know I'd go back to it and you're talking about going home I always remember one time where I said I was in a trance where I was with the players so I always remember we were playing a game against Evanton which for me is the biggest game I had a nightmare in the the game and we were going for a meal afterwards with the team like an official not a sort of few drinks it was it was to refuel basically this game was an early morning kickoff we had a champions league game on the Tuesday night in in indhoven we got beat 3 -0 at gooderson and we've gone to the centre of Liverpool for a meal just to make sure we're eating the right food I remember just staring just couldn't stop I was just wasn't even eating just just staring and next thing I get a text message Stevie Gerard he's just like he's there he's going don't worry about it it's gone finished you forget about you know just you've got to try and figure but I was just like he could just see everyone was devastated but for me I just not I'm not trying to make out that I cared more than anybody else because everyone's got their own ways of dealing with things but I yeah it was a yeah it was it's a huge part of my life football it always has been always will be I think I'll always be affected by football results when I went that's when I was playing as an Everton fan as a Liverpool fan right now football results will affect me it sounds painful it sounds like suffering doesn't sound like well when you win I can I show you I make sure I enjoy them I know afterwards I said before that it was relief but you had that moment of sort of joy the reason it was difficult to enjoy and why I'm probably different to a Peter Croucher, certain players who came in as that I think they'd come in from clubs where they played once a week and if they played well it was like I don't need to worry to that game I'm going to be off for two or three days whereas we'd have a game Tuesday Champions League or a Cup game and then it'd be right to enjoy that right bang we're back on it now it's almost like you're just on this train and nothing's getting in the way nothing's stopping but I can assure you it wasn't all doom and gloom I loved it and so many nights and times and experiences, but I do wish I was a little bit kinder to myself on the back of a poor performance or a defeat.
[180] I mean, I keep thinking about one standing out.
[181] We won the FA Cup final in 2006.
[182] Personally, I had the great season.
[183] We kept 33 clean sheets, which was one away from a record, which was obviously a lot.
[184] We played the cup final.
[185] and I scored an own goal.
[186] I didn't play well.
[187] Stevie Gerard wins the final.
[188] And we go on the open bus tour around Liverpool.
[189] So I've had a great season, but not had a great last game.
[190] And my son's on the bus with me. And I go on the top of the bus to start with.
[191] But you're on the bus for maybe three or four hours.
[192] Within an hour, I was downstairs.
[193] I was just sat there thinking, oh, it didn't go well.
[194] I didn't do that.
[195] You know, I didn't do it.
[196] And I was thinking, now when I look at, I'm embarrassed.
[197] I'm like, what are you doing?
[198] It was one game.
[199] You've had an unbelievable season.
[200] The team, we won the FA Cup.
[201] finished the season with a trophy but I couldn't it was almost like I was up there acting because I didn't feel like celebrating but we won the cup you know and just because I hadn't made a mistake hadn't played particularly well I know most players will be able to go I've had a great season I was only one game we won I found it tough people that have that winner's mindset they um as you kind of alluded to a second ago they often struggled to understand those that don't to relate to them and they often have a lot of friction with the people that don't have the winner's mindset because when you see the world in that way, I saw it a lot in Michael Jordan's documentary last dance.
[202] It was brilliant, wasn't that?
[203] Yeah.
[204] I'm amazing.
[205] I think I got a poster upstairs after I watched it.
[206] But he had that mindset where he was, you could see he would like pick on certain people who wouldn't meet him at his level.
[207] Did you ever find yourself and Stevie doing that way?
[208] If someone came into the dressing room and they weren't at that level, you would either, you'd force them out.
[209] or you'd, I mean, that's kind of what Peter Crouch was alluding to you, right?
[210] He was kind of saying that you two would be protecting the bar.
[211] Yeah, I mean, I think what happens is, I think what Peter was trying to mention, which I think it was a little bit unfair, the way he described it, was that when a new player came in, I think me and Steve were fans.
[212] We weren't just players, we were fans.
[213] It was like, oh, God, I hope he's good.
[214] You know, like a fan was out, this new fella's good.
[215] And when you come in after the first training session, it'd be more than a joke, oh, God.
[216] this doesn't look good, does it?
[217] You know what I mean?
[218] That type of thing if I thought, oh, God, this goes well.
[219] But I was, Stevie, Stevie was different to me and I was very vocal, very emotional.
[220] Stevie's, maybe body language on the pitch at times would be questioned if, you know, he wasn't happy with somebody he might turn away, you know, whereas I'd be remonstrating, scream and shouting, you know, and not in terms of someone hadn't played poorly, but mine'd be more in terms, names of organisation, someone doing the job for the team, where are you, where you need to be.
[221] I always felt like I was the coach of the team in some ways.
[222] And because I played a centre back and I could, you know, see the whole team in front to me, yeah, but we would be on top of people.
[223] But I don't, I wouldn't like that to come across in like a bullying way or we were trying to, you know, keep people down here.
[224] We loved Torres -A -Lon, so can we love being around great players because you wanted, because you wanted to win.
[225] That was all that matter.
[226] It wasn't about securing your place or, you know, making sure I was protected in any way.
[227] It was that thing of like, it's Liverpool.
[228] The big clubs, it's not enough to play for them.
[229] I know some people think I played for this club and it's on your CV and it's a great achievement to get to a Liverpool, a United Chelsea City.
[230] But it's not enough to play for them.
[231] You've got to win.
[232] The whole existence of those clubs is about winning.
[233] If they're not winning, there's no point.
[234] You know, so that was my drive at Liverpool was to win.
[235] win every single day.
[236] When Gerard Huillier came in as a manager, it's Huillier, is it Holier, Gerard, we'll just call him Gerard Huillia, when he arrived at Liverpool in, I think it was 1986, 1998, 1998, he came into the club, the players took to him at first that I read, because he, one of the key decisions he made was around Paul Ince.
[237] You see, the players took to him?
[238] Yeah.
[239] No, I think he found it difficult to start with.
[240] Oh, really?
[241] I think there was a big split in there.
[242] camp in that the players would come before that with Roy Evans and Gerard Julia came in he was new to it and yeah I think it was tough for him in that first season yeah did did that turn at some point did he win the trust of the players yeah I mean yeah he put Paul in's a great great fella I get on great with Paul Lynch great player as well didn't have the career at Liverpool he's had maybe our other clubs and I think Gerard Hury just wanted to make a fresh start and he wanted to, I think most a lot of might just do it.
[243] The take on, you know, the big guy if you like.
[244] And he was certainly that.
[245] He was, I think he was maybe England's captain or vice captain at the time.
[246] But he wanted to completely revolutionise Liverpool and completely change it.
[247] And yeah, he had a words with Paul Inns.
[248] And the thing was not about him having words as such, but also of the fact that he didn't sort of back down.
[249] He really held his own.
[250] He had a strong argument in the team meeting.
[251] And you think, wow, we just stood up to probably one of the best midfield players of his generation.
[252] What was that strong argument in the team meeting?
[253] It was over.
[254] Pauline's question of what we were doing in training, as senior pros do at times, you know, we're trying to get it right.
[255] Why are we doing this?
[256] Why are we doing that?
[257] And I think Gerard Julie saw it as his opportunity to sort of Stamber's authority.
[258] It was almost like, I would imagine, he was glad.
[259] Poland had said it, and it was Paul Lynch in some ways.
[260] And I don't think the message was for Paul Lynch because I think he was always going to get rid of Insy.
[261] I think the message was to the rest of us, you know, don't try and take me on.
[262] This is what we're going to do.
[263] Publicly in front of in the team meeting, told Paul.
[264] Yeah, basically, no, you wouldn't be at this club anymore, but he questioned his desire in a game.
[265] And to be fair, Paulins was probably one of the bravest football as you'd see.
[266] But in a particular game against Manchester United, We'd lost it to one and we'd lost two goals in the last minute and I think it was a very sore defeat for everyone so I think everyone was a little bit emotional about it and because Inchea jumped up and said something he just went straight back and said he wasn't happy that he'd come off he shouldn't have come off, my captain should come off on a stretcher from Old Trafford and it was interesting with Gerard Hewley in that we had him the first foreign manager and all of a sudden people would associate him with this flare football and being maybe a bit nice.
[267] But that was what the Liverpool team was before Gerald Hulay came.
[268] He completely went the other way and wanted big, strong, powerful players, aggression.
[269] And that's why me and him had such a great relationship, because I was such a competitor.
[270] Maybe he didn't have the quality that some of the players had in the Roy Evans team, if you're like, and some of the football they played was outstanding.
[271] But he just wanted people who would die for that shirt.
[272] because I read that part of the reason why his reign as manager sort of came to an end was because he made some bad signings and he was he didn't really inquire enough about the players that he was signing's character and their personality and so and I was just so compelled by that idea that that's one of the most important things when you're building teams is finding people that have the same like mentality and character versus just great sort of technical players I think about the same in business like I'm always considering how someone will support our culture, make our culture better, raise the bar in terms of like that mentality versus just being able to do fucking a thousand kickups or whatever and loads of skills.
[273] Yeah, I think you do need a certain mentality to play for Liverpool.
[274] What is that mentality?
[275] And the other big clubs.
[276] To be able to withstand pressure, criticism that comes your way.
[277] So often I saw a lot of Liverpool players who would start really well.
[278] And it wouldn't, it wouldn't make me think we've got a great player here.
[279] I'd always think, let's say a couple of months down the line because I knew what was coming.
[280] Because every player goes through a few bad games, you get criticism, whatever it may be.
[281] And I saw too many players never recover from that.
[282] And that tells me that for me, the top level football is mentality.
[283] Do you have that personality character to get you through those tough moments and come back and fight back and not give in?
[284] teach that?
[285] I don't know.
[286] You tell me. What do you think?
[287] I tend to believe that it comes from experience.
[288] I think resilience and that sort of character, those character traits come from being knocked down loads of time.
[289] So when the 10th failure or knockdown comes or the 10th moment of hardship comes, you're more equipped to deal with it.
[290] So players that haven't been through the tougher, you know, challenges in their life, maybe in their personal life, maybe where they come from, don't have that.
[291] Well, it's interesting to them.
[292] We're doing this this afternoon and there's some morning me, some went in front of the operation.
[293] You're sundered?
[294] Yeah, right.
[295] So he's going through the operation, he's a professional footballer and apparently having been able to probably sleep about it, thinking about it, you know, just want to do as much as you can, you know, to help them because it's your son.
[296] But the thing I keep drumming home to him and I keep saying it almost every day, we're not using this as an excuse this is not going in the way it's like this has happened is it okay bump we're going again it's like this I know for a lot of people or players or young players or whatever it may be would be a hurdle to come across and understandably so but it's not in years to come going to be oh I didn't quite do what I wanted because of that knee up yeah and this never happened and that it's like no there's going to be lots of things in his career, as in my career, obstacles in the way, you've got to get over them.
[297] You've got to get them out of the way or you've got to deal with it and then keep going, nothing's, and that was always my mindset, and that's what I'm trying to put into me. So I'm pretty confident he's got that mindset of nothing stops you.
[298] Nothing gets in your way.
[299] You don't use anything as an excuse or a reason why something didn't happen, that no excuse mentality, you just keep going.
[300] Nothing gets, no obstacles in the way.
[301] You said earlier on that you might not have cared as much as you did, you might not have had that same level of sort of excruciating obsession and care about the results and the outcome and winning if you'd been at another club.
[302] And you were at another club, which is England, and you didn't seem to care as much.
[303] You said that.
[304] I was quite shocked to read that, that I remember the text message that said, fuck it, it's only England.
[305] And generally, you didn't seem to be as excruciatingly hard on yourself after losing for England as you did with losing for England.
[306] Liverpool?
[307] I think that was down to the fact that I didn't carry the same responsibility because I never really played.
[308] I was like a squad player, really.
[309] I wouldn't class myself as patriotic.
[310] Not at all.
[311] I don't know what the...
[312] Can you be patriotic of your own city?
[313] Is that a word or is there something?
[314] I have no idea.
[315] I'm massively passionate about my own city.
[316] Maybe that comes from the way we're brought to.
[317] in Liverpool, you know, the thing of, you feel as if like a lot of the countries against you.
[318] And maybe that's some of it's true.
[319] Some people outside Liverpool think, oh, that's a chip on your shoulder.
[320] But there is that sort of, we sort of buy into that.
[321] And that doesn't mean, like, I'm against England as such.
[322] But watching England down the World Cup would never take me to a place emotionally the way it would if I saw Liverpool playing.
[323] and it just wouldn't take me there.
[324] It's not like a conscious thing of, I'm not going to be happy about this.
[325] It's just inside me. And that wasn't just when I was playing for him.
[326] That was when I was a child.
[327] I'd be thinking, why aren't England picking the event players?
[328] You know, it almost felt like England was a team from down south or a London team.
[329] That's just the feeling I had.
[330] But I think if I would have become a mainstay of the England team, I think I would have felt that.
[331] I think I would have got there.
[332] And that's me one disappointment in my football career.
[333] It's the only team in my life from when I started to five years of eight.
[334] I didn't dominate.
[335] I'm going to say dominate was be a mainstay of the team, be one of the voices of the team, be one of the leaders.
[336] Because I wasn't good enough.
[337] That's a simple fact.
[338] There's lots of players that you've encountered in your career that didn't reach their potential.
[339] You're talking about reaching your potential, doing your best, getting to the top of your potential a second ago.
[340] When you think about why those players didn't reach their potential, if you had to point out characteristics or behaviours that led them to miss their potential, what would those behaviours be?
[341] The traits of losers.
[342] I think blaming other people at different times for their own poor games, mistakes, always looking for excuses, I would say.
[343] I think I'm pretty honest and I was as a player and I always remember when I was a young lad, I had a bad game.
[344] I keep talking about me bad games, don't you remember them more.
[345] But a very famous coach, it was a huge inspiration to me, was Ronnie Moran.
[346] And I played a game and played poorly.
[347] And I did an interview after the game saying it was my fault.
[348] Those goals were my fault.
[349] And even though this was a coach who was a real sort of man's man, a legend of Liverpool football club, he wasn't the coach then.
[350] He still used to come in and walk around the training ground.
[351] And he said, don't ever do that again.
[352] He said, you don't need to open yourself up like that.
[353] He said, be honest with the direction room and see your manager.
[354] But he said, you know what I mean?
[355] Sometimes you've got to be clever and look after yourself a little bit and you don't need to be as honest.
[356] You think you're doing the right thing.
[357] And I think I knew exactly where he was coming from.
[358] I think at times you need to be honest, but I think probably other times like that, you maybe need to protect yourself a little bit, but you never hide behind the fact that it was someone else's fault.
[359] And again, I keep going.
[360] back to me son because I'm not a coach or a manager.
[361] And people say to me, you know, could you give something back?
[362] But I want to you want to give it back to my son.
[363] And things like that, don't question the manager.
[364] Don't make excuses.
[365] Don't blame the manager.
[366] Or if you come in and say, oh, the coach or the train, well, get something out of it.
[367] Don't be in the dressing room saying, oh, this isn't good or that isn't good.
[368] On the point of questioning the manager, one of the things I read was that Gerard Hulia, Hulia, Kahn't his bloody name.
[369] Hulier.
[370] Hulier.
[371] Cool.
[372] One of the reasons why, he ultimately ended up leaving the club was because he started to lose his authority in the dressing room.
[373] Now, Peter Crouch said to me that great managers, even when they don't know the right answers, pretend they do.
[374] Because they know that if they ever get to a point where the players know that they're not in control, then the authority's gone.
[375] And there was a story I read about Gerard Huli, A, picking a team, and then going and asking Gerard if it was the correct team.
[376] And then Gerard said, it's not the correct team and changed it.
[377] this happened in in spring in 2004 in the run -up to a Premier League match way to Manchester United Gerard Hulier picked the team but then consulted with Gerard whether the selection was right who said it wasn't right and then Hulier changed it.
[378] I don't, it rings a bell I don't know the specific game if that was the right game but I think towards the end of his time I think the results are going well and managers, no matter who they're they will lose confidence and Stevie at that time was obviously a megastat and you're trying to maybe keep people on side if you're like not that I think the players were ever offside with Gerard Hulier but that confidence and belief in the manager starts to ever weigh when results don't go well I wouldn't say Gerard Hulier ever lost the dressing room in terms of how we felt about him as a man but it was it was a time for it's come to an end there's no doubt about that And it's an interesting one that does a manager lose the dressing room?
[379] Yes, he's always lost part of a dressing room because of the players who he's not picking.
[380] But I think it's when that belief goes really.
[381] But for me, again, I think I was different to other players because I never played for the manager, ever.
[382] I always played for the club.
[383] And again, because it was the club, I always felt like I played for the club and the supporters.
[384] And I'm not saying that to Curry Faye.
[385] with the supporters as such, but no manager bought me. You know, I didn't know I'm managing anything as such.
[386] I mean, Roy Evans given me my debut, I suppose, and other managers played me, but I never had that sort of feeling that we need to win this for the manager.
[387] Rafa Benitez comes in next.
[388] What's the difference between Gerard Hulier and Raffa Benitez in terms of style?
[389] because I find it so compelling that managers can be great for various different reasons and we think of management as like a formula but as I sit here with football players that have had seven, eight, nine managers, they all say that managers are completely different in their style and approach.
[390] Yeah, Raffa was completely different.
[391] Gerard Hulier was a manager.
[392] I think Gerard Hulier was the type of guy who could.
[393] He could manage an organisation didn't just have to be football.
[394] I think he could have been a bank manager.
[395] he could have been a CEO if you like he organised people get everyone focused on what do we want to achieve but the actual day -to -day stuff of coaching I don't think it wasn't as foretay and it might sound strange I don't think he had a huge knowledge of the game enough but it wasn't someone who was going to say something to you in a coaching session or a tactical point that made you think oh never heard that before or that's a bit different it wasn't like that his thing was bringing people together for a common goal and almost when I've described them to other people people say Clive Woodward the England rugby coach World Cup winning coach was probably similar than that and he's had other coaches but he's always been coming up with ideas to create sort of a siege mentality or togetherness whereas Raffa was a coach he was on that training pitch every day and he was a lot colder than Gerard Julio he was a lot more interested in the kids, the wife you know yourself you know he'd ask me about my dad or different things like that was Jared who Raffa didn't want to get involved anything like that for him it was just football I mean if I think I was obsessed with football Raffa was just like he was probably above me so we're but it was different but it doesn't I mean I'll be honest with you when we describe managers like the one who come a couple after was Roy Hodgson and it didn't go particularly well but my point is when a new manager comes in I want to get whatever I can from him.
[396] So he may not work for Liverpool.
[397] I may not like X, but I might like Y and Z. So you're always got to be a sponge and taking things in and learning things.
[398] And I think when Gerard Hulier came in, I was a bit part player and then became a fully fledged member of Liverpool's first 11 for the next five years.
[399] And then Raffa came in and then again stepped up a level to become the vice captain and one of the leaders in the team, one of the best players in the team.
[400] So I always think I got the most from these other managers coming in, you know, who certainly Jared Hooley, I don't think would have ever heard of me. Maybe, you know, not too much.
[401] But I think it's important when people come into your life, figures of authority, you've got to basically squeeze everything out of them to your advantage.
[402] And I think I did that with both managers.
[403] Let's do the biggest pro and con then.
[404] So from what I end, of these individuals as managers, so Gerard Hulia, you said he's a great sort of man -manager CEO type.
[405] That's probably, from what I hear, one of his greatest strengths.
[406] His downside is maybe a lack of football knowledge.
[407] Is that what you're?
[408] I wouldn't say it was a downside because he had coaches around him who did the training sessions.
[409] It just got to its natural end in that, you know, you shouldn't forget him.
[410] He nearly lost his life managing Liverpool.
[411] And he's then making decisions.
[412] is he in a fully, you know, football -focused, state of mind when he's actually recovering from almost losing his life and we made a few signings that didn't work.
[413] And to be honest, that's always our ends for Liverpool managers when it comes to the end that they have a summer where they buy a few players, they don't quite work out.
[414] And then the next manager has to come in because, you know, the energy and the excitement, not just from the squad, but also the support is just peter and out.
[415] So Raff is great tactically obsessed with football, obsessed with the game, but his sort of downside was if they're, I mean, everyone has a fucking downside.
[416] I have a downside as a manager and a CEO is probably the man management stuff.
[417] Yeah, but I don't think that stops us winning as such.
[418] Yeah, it's just a different approach.
[419] You know, nobody is everything.
[420] Alex Ferguson is not a coach.
[421] He's probably more like a Gerard Hulay type figure and has coaches there.
[422] Raffa Benitez people will question his man management.
[423] But I don't question it as such and I don't question Gerard Hulet or other managers.
[424] You've just got to do what's your strength that's your strength.
[425] So what, if Raffa Venetez's strength is not the man management I'm putting this act on, it's all about being obsessed with football and coaching every single day, do what you're good at.
[426] That's what I find interesting is there's so many ways to win because when I sat here with all the United players, Rio, Patrice, Gary, they all say about Sir Alex Ferguson, they go, man manager, but only came in the training room dressing ground twice in 26 years or whatever.
[427] And then you hear about these other people like Rafa, who also tremendously successful, won the biggest trophies, could possibly win but wasn't that way inclined.
[428] History is written by the winner.
[429] It doesn't matter what you do.
[430] So if Sir Alex Ferguson doesn't do well at Man United, those same players would be saying to you, he's never at the training ground.
[431] He's never there.
[432] We don't do tactical work.
[433] He doesn't do any coaching.
[434] It's all about winning.
[435] And to be honest, what you're saying there is interesting because one time, I remember Raffa Benitez, he knew someone at United and he said, Ferguson doesn't even coach because in Raffa's mind you've got to be a top man you're a coach you know I think when him and Marino came along they were like coaches and probably couldn't get the heads around the way Alex Ferguson was and it was almost it was almost a little bit dismissive and it wasn't like I was trying to defend the Manchester United manager it was just that training even Ferguson doesn't even do the coaching I said so what yeah it's like it doesn't matter he wins there's different ways of winning and that's my thing on TV now there's no right or wrong way to play football it's being the best you can be at what you do and if that for Raffa Benitez is being on that training ground, coaching, not getting involved in stuff away from the pitch well that's someone else's job you know, no one is perfect at anything Alex Ferguson wasn't a great coach so he brought in great coaches I think that's really important not just in in football management I actually think in life in that for me I'm a little bit wary of getting involved in things where I think that's not my area of expertise I think that'd be a little bit arrogant of myself to think I could just parachute myself in there and, you know, start run the show or get right involved in it.
[436] So I think we all got to know where our strengths are and all got to know where we need help because we all need help.
[437] That's what Richard Branson taught me. You know, reading through his story, but also getting to speak to him on this podcast, this is a guy who didn't know what the difference between net profit and gross profit until I think he was 50, which is one of the key principles like understandings of running a business, dyslexic can't look at presentations if you try and show him words on a slide deck he'll he won't look at it he'll only look at pictures he's got so many deficiencies in areas that you think are critical to business but the one thing that everyone says he says and everyone around him says was because of all of his deficiencies he made up for it by being the best delegator in the world so he found people that could plug all of these gaps and gave them huge responsibility and you think you know by the age of, at the same time when he doesn't know the difference between net profit and gross profit, he's running 50 different companies.
[438] Virgin is now 400 different companies.
[439] And you go, how is someone who is, in his own words, like not good at business doing that?
[440] Well, just a supreme delegator.
[441] And Sir Alex Ferguson, the same, bad coach, but had, I can't remember his name, that guy that did it.
[442] Carlos Keel or Steve McLean, lots of different ones, didn't he?
[443] But I think what you're saying is really good because, The career I've had has afforded me so many opportunities.
[444] I'm so fortunate that I meet, I'm speaking to you.
[445] You know, you're speaking to other people who are experts in their field.
[446] But when you speak to them, and that story about Richard Branson is perfect in that, if you don't know them and, you know, say my family and friends, sometimes they're fascinated by some of the people I meet.
[447] And I said, I'm lucky to be in certain situations.
[448] And they look at these people like they're extraordinary.
[449] And when you've got a sort of relationship with someone, whether it's someone I work on TV with, they're just normal people.
[450] And they've got the same sort of insecurities that you've got.
[451] But they've got something about them where they've got sort of, maybe it's an opportunity that's arisen, they've grabbed it with both hands, an enthusiasm, something about them has put them in that position.
[452] But they're not extraordinary people.
[453] They've got an extraordinary task.
[454] for that, you know, and which finds themselves, I feel it in that field.
[455] So that thing where people are so impressed with someone or think they're going to give them these words that they've never heard of before.
[456] I think the older I get now, I realize that a lot of people in, you know, great positions.
[457] It's not because there's some genius.
[458] Sometimes, as I said, it's opportunity.
[459] They've seen a niche in the market, whatever it may be.
[460] They've just gone out there and grabbed it.
[461] You know, there's a real trap I've noticed.
[462] based on exactly what you've said where someone's successful so what we do is we assume that they get everything right and so with Richard Branson because he's a super successful entrepreneur we assume that he's the best at marketing, branding, finance all of these things and I noticed this a lot when I was in San Francisco and it was when Snapchat the app had blown up and we were building a chat app and what you'd see the team doing was whenever we were trying to make a decision the team were going well what does Snapchat do because Snapchat was successful we assumed that their marketing strategy, every feature they had, everything they did with the login form, we assumed everything they did was right.
[463] And I came to sort of see that bias in myself, and it's exactly what you've described.
[464] If we see someone who is at the top of the game, we assume that they are godlike in everything.
[465] And that's what you do with Richard Branson.
[466] Sheimmy's the best speaker in the world.
[467] You've seen best salesmen.
[468] No, in reality, from what I've learned from doing this, and honestly, looking at my own life, because I'm not actually good at business.
[469] Like, I'm not good at the business stuff.
[470] I'm not good at, like, finance.
[471] operations, processes, but I'm good at this one thing.
[472] And that's what I learned from Richard is Richard's good at this one thing.
[473] He's like, I'd say he's good at the branding piece, but he's just an unbelievable delegator.
[474] So that's, yeah, I mean, that's what I got from all of that.
[475] But it's funny having this conversation in the wake of Richard Branson because he's the best example of that.
[476] One of the, obviously, one of the defining moments, I think in football generally, not just as a Liverpool player or a Liverpool fan, was that final away at Istanbul.
[477] you go in at half time I think it's 2005 final you go in 3 -0 down when you go down that tunnel at 3 -0 down honestly do you think you can turn that game around no no no not at all no what are you thinking when you walk through the tunnel then it's going to be 6 -0 is that what you're thinking or how can we stop it being 6 -0 I think if you lose a game 3 -0 it happens if if you lose 5 or 6 -0 it's remembered.
[478] And that was my fear.
[479] That was fear.
[480] What happened in the dressing room?
[481] What did Raffa say?
[482] Not a lot.
[483] He wasn't a motivator.
[484] He was a tactician.
[485] And he made changes in this system -wise, strategically to change it.
[486] But if I'm being honest, I think the changes he made was not to win the game.
[487] I think the changes he made was to stop him to come up five or six -nil.
[488] Because we actually brought on a defensive midfield player, Didier Man. we went to you can go to three at the back but you can be five at the back if you like rather than playing four don't get me wrong the changes helped us go on and get the goals but I think initially we need to stop what AC Milan are doing otherwise this is going to be a massacre why did the game turn around I think the change is Raffa made a little bit of luck and Stephen Gerard he scores the header 54 minutes or something and then within a couple more minutes you've, you're 3 -3.
[489] That's the little bit of luck you need to score so quickly right after.
[490] That happens in some games and we did get a little bit of look.
[491] I think the lines were actually flagged for an offside.
[492] The referee didn't see it and they carried on playing for 30 seconds so the lines and puts us flagged down.
[493] And that's in the run -up to us getting our second goal.
[494] So we scored the second goal and then do you know when you're on a football pitch.
[495] You smell it.
[496] It's 3 -2.
[497] We knew it was going, I knew it was going to be 3 -3.
[498] Everybody knew it was going to be 3 -3.
[499] You just...
[500] What is that?
[501] I don't know.
[502] You just...
[503] The reason I know is because when we score 3 -2, no one celebrates with the goal scorer.
[504] Everyone just runs back.
[505] He started celebrating.
[506] He started celebrating, but it's...
[507] He was going crazy.
[508] I remember thinking you shouldn't do that.
[509] Yeah.
[510] But everyone's back.
[511] It's like everyone's in, ooh, in his own.
[512] And you don't need to speak to other people.
[513] Sometimes there's moments in.
[514] games you just you can smell it you can feel it something's that man is that a culture thing as well because there's certain clubs you have that when when they go two nil down three nil down no everyone goes they're going to do it they're going to come back and there's that mentality where you go yeah we're not safe here they're coming for us i think liverpool a man united they've got it city you seem to have it now a city yeah certainly in the last couple of years on the peporeola i've always felt chelsea have had that in the last 10 years or so even when they weren't at the best they'd still find a way to win and yeah I know our club's got that and we'll always have that you just it just you feel like something's going to happen why is Liverpool done so well in the Champions League I think a lot of that is emotion belief winning those finals as well yeah winning finals the history that's gone before the Amfield crowd believe that the opposition coming to Anfield believe that something's going to happen special this is a mythical football ground do you believe they're the best fans in the Premier I wouldn't say that and the reason I wouldn't say that is because everybody thinks to the best fans and I think if I do say that I won't be turning on my Twitter notifications in a few days after this podcast comes out but no I would say yes but every set of supporters what they do to follow their team home and away I think I'm field special I don't think anyone could deny that that