A Post-Roe America, Part 1: The Anti-Abortion Activists

[0] This is Mike.

[1] Mike, hi, it's Sabrina.

[2] Hey, how are you?

[3] I'm good.

[4] I have a different job now, so which is why you haven't heard from me in a while.

[5] Wait, am I allowed to ask?

[6] What's going on?

[7] I'm hosting The Daily, so I'm one of the hosts.

[8] Congratulations, that's really cool.

[9] Thank you.

[10] Thank you.

[11] That's great.

[12] And I'm trying to take a look at a couple of different states and really just like talk to folks in the pro -life movement in those places.

[13] and just sort of see where people's heads are at right now, you know, what they're thinking, what they're, what they're talking about, what they're doing.

[14] Okay, great.

[15] So, Mike, first, why don't you do something for me before we even start, ID yourself for me. So tell me your name and your title and your age, if you don't mind.

[16] Sure.

[17] Michael Gondadocas, president of Ohio Right to Life, our state headquarters for Ohio Rights Life are located in Columbus, Ohio, I'm 48 years old, 22 -year practicing attorney.

[18] And I think that's all.

[19] There it is.

[20] So tell me, Mike, where you were when you heard the news of this leak.

[21] So full transparency, I was sitting on my back patio watching my children jump on the trampoline when I received a call from the Senate president for the state of Ohio asking me if I heard the news.

[22] And at first I thought it was a joke and a prank, of course.

[23] understand.

[24] Then I asked him to send me verification immediately, and he sent me a tweet, and my world got turned upside down.

[25] I hung up the phone with him, and immediately, you know, the news just started cascading and boiling over, and my phone started to explode and blow up, and it's been a whirlwind of a past 20 -some hours.

[26] And it's not about me, of course, but being able to have a front row seat to watch history being changed, you know, it's, I'm not.

[27] speechless.

[28] I'm still am because I just want to, I'm expecting to wake up and realize it was a dream when in fact it's not its reality.

[29] Now, I have to temper this with we've seen a draft opinion.

[30] It's not the final opinion.

[31] So things could change.

[32] I don't believe they will, but they could.

[33] Were you happy?

[34] I mean, this has been your life's work for how many years?

[35] 14 years.

[36] I've been with Ohio rights of life.

[37] And, you know, happy is one word.

[38] But, you know, in pure transparency, I was nervous, you know, because I said to myself, we've been talking a lot lately about what a post -row Ohio or a post -row America would look like.

[39] But now we actually have to do it.

[40] And that's a blessing.

[41] Don't get me wrong.

[42] But also it makes me nervous because we're in uncharted territory.

[43] There's no book.

[44] There's no manual written by someone in the 80s or the 90s or some legal scholar writing something on how to do this, that, or the other.

[45] And it's imperative upon us now to work even harder.

[46] to make sure that we have social services in a safety net for women who find himself as a pregnancy.

[47] You know, the dynamics and the messaging and the strategy completely changed now.

[48] And we're going to have to rewrite the playbook.

[49] From the New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi.

[50] This is the Daily.

[51] Even before the leaked Supreme Court opinion, figures on both sides of the abortion fight were preparing for the end of Roe.

[52] In the days since, they've been scrambling.

[53] Today, in the first of two parts, we talk to the anti -abortion activists about what the fight looks like after you already seem to have won.

[54] It's Friday, May 6th.

[55] Ready?

[56] Sam speaking.

[57] Sam, hi, it's Sabrina Tavernisi from the New York Times.

[58] And Lindsay Garrison here's on the line.

[59] Hi, Sam.

[60] Yeah, how's good to talk to you?

[61] How you been doing?

[62] Pretty good.

[63] Pretty good.

[64] Sam, where are we catching you?

[65] Where are you right now?

[66] I am in the state capital.

[67] I am found a cubby hole, which is relatively quiet, and I don't think anyone will disturb me here.

[68] But you just never know because sometimes people look for quiet cubby holes to make their own phone calls.

[69] So we're in those last two weeks of the session, trying to get a pro -life bill passed and try to get a constitutional amendment put on the ballot in Missouri that would make the state.

[70] Constitution, abortion neutral.

[71] We have some increases on funding for alternatives to abortion, and also there's language to try to, again, defund Planned Parenthood, but in a different way that might be upheld by our state Supreme Court.

[72] So Sam, it sounds like you've been pretty busy.

[73] Yes, yes.

[74] It's been a busy year, but a good year.

[75] I mean, not an untypical year, but just, you know, just a little bit of this, a little bit of that.

[76] I'm Samuel H. Lee.

[77] I go by Sam.

[78] And I am director of campaign -lice Missouri, long -time pro -life lobbyist in Missouri, and I am 64 years old.

[79] And how long have you been working on the abortion issue, Sam?

[80] Well, it's now close to 40 years.

[81] Wow, 40 years.

[82] I've been lobbying full -time 37 years, but I started a couple years before that part -time.

[83] So it's close to 40 years lobbying at the state capital.

[84] And it's just something that I really enjoy doing.

[85] And I love the place.

[86] I love the people.

[87] I love the work.

[88] I'm just really blessed to be able to come to the state capil and do this every year.

[89] So where were you when you heard the news of the leaked decision?

[90] I was leaving St. Louis to drive to Jefferson City about two hours away.

[91] We had a confirmation of kids at our Catholic church, Ramadieckin, and had just finished up with that.

[92] and was checking my phone for messages.

[93] And some of my colleagues who are state legislators, they were tweeting out the Politico story.

[94] And it's like, whoa, what's this?

[95] What's the first thing that went through your head when you saw that news?

[96] What's the first thing that came to mind?

[97] I'm still not convinced that the Supreme Court will use this case to overturn Rovers Swade.

[98] I hope I'm wrong in my analysis, but I'm not convinced it's going to happen.

[99] So skeptical, but also happy.

[100] Maybe this is, I'm not going to say the end or the beginning of the end, but maybe this is the transition point that the pro -life movement and this country needs to get away from court -supervised abortion law and return it to the states to decide.

[101] But we'll see.

[102] So Sam, you learned this news.

[103] What did you do first when you woke up?

[104] Like what I do every morning is do my morning prayer.

[105] And that's the very first thing.

[106] A book of Psalms, it's actually on my, it's an app I use on my phone and do my morning prayer.

[107] And got ready and came over to the state capitol.

[108] When you went to the state house, what was the mood?

[109] What were people talking about?

[110] Could you sense that this thing had happened?

[111] Oh, they were personally talking about.

[112] It's like the topic of discussion among my circle of lawmakers and other lobbyists about, well, what do you think?

[113] Is this it?

[114] A lot of questions.

[115] You know, is this the one?

[116] Is this the case that's going to overturn Rovers's way?

[117] I said, maybe.

[118] I hope so.

[119] But we'll have to see.

[120] People were saying, well, congratulating me and, you know, this is what you've worked for and things like that.

[121] I'm glad for the high five.

[122] I'm glad for the thank you, even, for the work that I've done.

[123] But as I explained to many, we still have more work to do.

[124] And I mean, the irony is because some people think that Rovers is overturned, there may be less desire to pass a pro -life bill.

[125] So that's something I have to contend with as well.

[126] Like, well, no, we still have work to do.

[127] Even if Rovers is overturned in late June or early July, there's still other legislation we need to pass.

[128] Interesting.

[129] So it's almost like people had.

[130] kind of thought, okay, it's done.

[131] It's done, yeah, move on other things.

[132] So that's also what I'm contending with.

[133] So, Sam, let's do a hypothetical a little bit here.

[134] So say Roe is overturned.

[135] Say, okay, Supreme Court decision comes out last day of June, 10 a .m., by 2 p .m., it's outlawed in the state of Sorry.

[136] What does that mean for you and for your organization?

[137] I mean, are you finished?

[138] Is your work done?

[139] That's it?

[140] Oh, not at all.

[141] Not in the least because there will be attempts to undo that, either by pro -choice legislators in the next legislative session, which would begin in January, or there might be an initiative petition to pass a right to abortion in state statute or even an attempted constitution.

[142] amendment.

[143] And also we just have so many women who are now leaving the state for their abortions.

[144] How do we reach out to them?

[145] And this just concerns me more than anything.

[146] There are women who are who are either going out of state.

[147] They're ordering abortion pills through offshore companies from India.

[148] And, you know, our laws are designed.

[149] And I've worked hard to make sure that they're designed so that there's never going to be a prosecution and will not be a prosecution of a woman for procuring an abortion or buying abortion pills on the internet or anything like that.

[150] The doctor, that's a different story.

[151] Someone who facilitates that, that's different.

[152] We have a bill this year that makes it a felony, a high -level felony, to either import or procure or administer abortion pills unlawfully in the state of Missouri.

[153] But that's just part of the story.

[154] How do we deal with women who leave the state to have abortions, you know, primarily in Kansas and Illinois?

[155] How do we reach those women and provide the alternatives that they may not even be aware are available to them?

[156] And that to me is the challenge.

[157] The numbers of women who have been going to Kansas have actually increased slightly, and the numbers going to Illinois have just increased astronomically.

[158] So that's the challenge that we face.

[159] And how do you, how do you craft legislation that deals with that.

[160] Are you worried that if Roe is eventually overturned, that it might actually just diffuse the movement altogether, that people will just kind of go on to other things?

[161] I mean, that would be the end, right?

[162] I mean, how do you see what might happen?

[163] Yeah, that could happen.

[164] And I think that's just looking at other social movements.

[165] But there is a core group of pro -lifers and people are involved in pro -life who are going to stay in.

[166] The candidates are still going to be running on this issue.

[167] Does it worry me?

[168] Yes, but it doesn't worry me to the point of where I can't function or others can't function.

[169] You just deal with it as it comes up.

[170] But I think, yes, it's a possibility.

[171] Is there a possibility that there's a backlash?

[172] Absolutely.

[173] But we're better off not having the Supreme Court and the courts deciding what abortion policy should be, but leaving it up to legislative bodies.

[174] and the political process.

[175] I think that's a far better alternative than what we've been working under for close to 50 years now.

[176] Sam, I'm just going to ask you to reflect back to when you started in the movement, you know, in the 70s and compare that to now.

[177] I mean, how would you describe what it was like to be in the movement back then?

[178] And, you know, the extent to which you were winning or not winning.

[179] And how that feeling compares to today?

[180] You know, it was the feeling of an obligation of a calling remains.

[181] It's never changed for, gosh, since 1978 when I first got involved.

[182] I will say what's different is that it's not as simple as we thought back then.

[183] It's, gosh, it's, I will say that one of the biggest regrets, it's not something that the pro -life movement caused.

[184] But one of the biggest regrets is the partisan divide.

[185] When I first got involved, there were lots of Democrats who are pro -life.

[186] And now that's completely changed.

[187] And the pro -life movement will not be sustainable in the long run unless we have influence in both political parties.

[188] And I don't know how to get there in the Democratic Party.

[189] I simply don't.

[190] And until we do, this is not going to end.

[191] It's going to, you know, go back and forth, depending on who's president or governor at a particular time period, who issues what executive orders.

[192] So that certainly has changed where there's this great divide.

[193] I think it also that as politicized as abortion has been, as long as I can remember, is even more so.

[194] And that works against the pro -life movement.

[195] If we're seeing primarily as a tool or an arm of the Republican Party, that makes it harder for us to do our job.

[196] You know, I still enjoy the work as much as I ever have and still feel called to do it.

[197] It's more challenging and it's going to have to be a younger generation, which is going to have to rethink what the pro -life movement has done and come up with maybe.

[198] different solutions or better solutions in some cases.

[199] You know, one of these days, I'll get too old to do this, but I'm not too old right now.

[200] I believe it was late evening, and it was dinner time where I lived.

[201] So I was cooking dinner for my family, making fajitas, and I just checked my phone, and it's, like, blowing up.

[202] And I was stunned.

[203] I was like, what?

[204] Like, oh, my gosh.

[205] Like, is this real?

[206] Like, I need to go read these.

[207] So my mom was kind enough to take over dinner for it.

[208] me while I was able to catch up on the news.

[209] And at first I, to be on, I was in disbelief.

[210] And a part of me was, I don't even know if celebrating is the right word, but a part of me was, wow, like we worked so hard for this.

[211] I've worked so hard for this.

[212] But a part of me was like, I'm also terrified.

[213] Terrified, why?

[214] Why?

[215] Because the amount of women that needed her help before and will need her help post -row.

[216] Our work is not over.

[217] Our work is far from over.

[218] Our work is really, honestly, just beginning.

[219] My name is Jess Meath, and I am the National Communications Director for Democrats for Life of America.

[220] I am 26 years old, and I like to say that my pro -life journey, technically, on March 17th, 1996, when I was adopted from China.

[221] I was adopted because of the one -child policy.

[222] I don't know who my real parents are.

[223] I don't even know really when my real birthday is.

[224] But what I do know is that I'm here.

[225] I'm alive and someone somewhere chose life for me. I am here for a reason.

[226] I remember hearing about adoption is, just one of the aspects in the pro -life movement.

[227] And it made me think about my own story.

[228] And I understand and I'm learning that kind of one -child policy is not roving made.

[229] I guess that there are two different things.

[230] But it was, to me, I saw it as it's still regarding the right to life.

[231] That that's the core issue.

[232] that was when I started to understand the value and dignity of every human life and every person.

[233] I remember when I was at my Catholic school, I learned that life begins that conception.

[234] And for me, I, you know, I took it as a, okay, wow, okay, so this is, you know, this is the church teaching.

[235] I understand that.

[236] But then I began to understand it's not even a philosophical question.

[237] It's not even a religious question.

[238] Science tells us this.

[239] And it was actually not until I say the year of 2020.

[240] When I had my eyes open, you know, after George Floyd, after all of this injustice.

[241] And I remember my freshman theology teacher, I remember him telling me, In 2020, when I felt so conflicted about the election, I had no peace.

[242] I almost felt like I had to choose between all of these social justice issues.

[243] I had to look at race.

[244] I had to look at economic equality.

[245] I had to look at climate change with the wildfires, with just everything that was, everything that was dividing our nation.

[246] And I remember him telling me, Jess, if we're not.

[247] respecting life before birth, we can't be surprised that we're not respecting it after birth.

[248] So it struck me, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

[249] Abortion is a social, is a social justice issue.

[250] It opened my eyes.

[251] And I realized that if we respect life when it begins, when we respect life in the womb, then I can just imagine, I can only imagine the transformation.

[252] that would occur with all of these other issues.

[253] It just, it made sense to me of, wow, we really do need to be, we need to be pro -life for the whole life.

[254] And we have to remember who's being affected.

[255] Yeah.

[256] I used to honestly see abortion as, like, very, like, yes, no. Like, that's yes, no. And not really understanding what women are.

[257] are going through in these moments.

[258] And that totally needs to be understood.

[259] I feel like from both sides, it's not always black and white.

[260] And the woman who's going through this most vulnerable moment is not thinking it's black and white either.

[261] Do you understand why someone would choose that?

[262] Choose abortion.

[263] Yeah.

[264] And that's another thing.

[265] It's like I'm learning too about the language of like choosing abortion.

[266] we need to change the language and like even when I catch myself saying things and like oh no Jess like there's a completely other way to say it a lot of the times this woman feel like there is no other option that that they that they aren't choosing it they really feel like that there's no other option and so do you allow for the possibility that they could see it as an option that they would want and and I you know it's such a it's such a sensitive and personal experience.

[267] And it's, it's just so, it's hard, it's hard.

[268] Yeah.

[269] I really enjoyed this conversation.

[270] And I was like, honestly, it's okay if I'm stumbling in the podcast, that's important.

[271] Because it's real, it's real.

[272] And that happens in real life conversation.

[273] So don't be afraid, like, keep that in.

[274] We'll be right back.

[275] Do I believe the pro -life movement is winning?

[276] I believe the pro -life movement 100 % is winning across the board.

[277] My name is Brian Westbrook, Executive Director of Coalition Life.

[278] I am, in fact, 37 years old.

[279] I have six children and a beautiful wife at home.

[280] We've been married for an amazing 15 years, almost 16, and I've been doing pro -life work.

[281] We started in 2009, so about 13 years.

[282] Well, Brian, let's start with where were you when you heard about this leak from the Supreme Court, you know, this draft decision?

[283] Where were you at that exact moment?

[284] Oh, my gosh.

[285] Quite frankly, I was distracted from what I should be doing, which is putting the kids to bed.

[286] Because it came in, I think later in the day, I was perusing some news articles.

[287] Sure enough, this one popped up, and so I dumped it into our staff chat, and then it just blew up with all these different.

[288] Has anyone actually seen the actual document?

[289] And not to give you any trouble, but we rarely trust media sources directly.

[290] No offense taken, Brian.

[291] We want to do our own fact checking.

[292] And what did you think, Brian, when you saw that?

[293] I mean, what went through your head?

[294] The very first thought that went through my head is that someone's going to lose their job.

[295] And what does it, what does that mean for the integrity of the Supreme Court?

[296] But did you think that it would potentially be good for the pro -life movement?

[297] I mean, you know, potentially the leak maybe in some ways kind of seals the deal.

[298] Like, how did you, how did you see the?

[299] No, I don't see that the leak at all seals the deal, not even in the slightest bit.

[300] So the document's date is February 10th.

[301] Here we are in May. and a lot could have changed between February 10th and today that we don't know about.

[302] Right.

[303] Because we know that human beings, we change our minds.

[304] Human beings, we have a sense of being influenced.

[305] And so I want to make sure that we are, number one, praying, but also working diligently, knowing that potentially Roe versus Wade might be overturned.

[306] But this document doesn't prove that one way or another.

[307] Now, June 27th, we might get a decision.

[308] And at that point, there might be a little party that we might host.

[309] But anything prior is going to be too soon.

[310] Well, Brian, could you crystal ball it with me a little bit for a second?

[311] I mean, obviously, you're right.

[312] This is a draft.

[313] It was a leak.

[314] You know, people or have their own minds.

[315] This could be fluid.

[316] It could change.

[317] But it's also a fairly significant hint of what might actually be.

[318] be coming, right?

[319] I mean, I don't think we can completely ignore it and say it's nothing.

[320] In your mind, kind of casting your mind forward to the end of June, in the event that actually the Supreme Court does strike down Roe, you know, how does that make you feel?

[321] I mean, what comes to mind when you imagine that scenario?

[322] So if, in fact, Roe v. Wade is overturned and the Dobbs case comes down on June 27th.

[323] It really just means that the so -called pro -life or pro -abortion battle is then distributed over 50 states.

[324] And really what it means is that our job just got harder.

[325] And so our viewpoint is that we need to continue growing in Missouri, but that strategy needs to be augmented.

[326] And we know that a lot of women are now exiting the state.

[327] They're going to Illinois.

[328] They're going to Kansas.

[329] They're going to other places.

[330] And just recently, we went up to a suburb of Chicago called Blossmoor.

[331] And so we have sidewalk counseling up there.

[332] And so whenever we go to a sidewalk, to an abortion facility, it's always armed with resources and help for those women.

[333] And then we're looking at the other 16 abortion facilities in the Chicago region.

[334] And how could we staff all of those all the time?

[335] and then look at the, you know, at least back in October, there was 788 abortion facilities around the country.

[336] And so if we had the funding and staffing, we would be at 788 abortion facilities today.

[337] And Brian, what does that look like in front of you right now?

[338] I mean, who is doing it?

[339] I mean, it's certainly our group, of course.

[340] You know, we're doing that.

[341] But the groups I'm in collaboration with are leaders of pregnancy centers for the most part.

[342] These pregnancy centers, I think they were looking about three to five years.

[343] They're looking to add 25 extra pregnancy centers in Illinois.

[344] But we must outnumber the number of abortion facilities at least three to one, if not five to one.

[345] And so in Missouri, we outnumber the abortion facility 75 to one.

[346] So our 75 pregnancy centers to their one abortion facility.

[347] And so we need to be doing that in every single state across the entire nation.

[348] I think the pro -life movement is stronger today than it ever has been, and I do not believe the Dobbs case is going to make much of a change there.

[349] In fact, I think it will only energize the pro -life movement and make us stronger even still.

[350] And so there isn't some plan to have a party and stop and, you know, go home and, you know, sit on our laurels.

[351] In fact, there is a very, very strategic plan behind the scenes if, in fact, Roe versus Wade is overturned, which really then, as I mentioned, and everyone else in the pro -life movement is seeing this, actually just makes it more difficult because our job just got harder, because we need to serve all of these women at the local level, also fight each one of these battles separately in all 50 different states.

[352] My name is Anya Baker, and I'm 27.

[353] I live in Jackson, Mississippi, and I am married.

[354] I have two little boys.

[355] One is three.

[356] One is one year old.

[357] And my one year old has multiple disabilities.

[358] And the organization I work with now is the Susan B. Anthony List Education Fund, which expands across many services.

[359] So what this means is not just explicitly pro -life centers, but also groups that just assist along the way.

[360] whether that be a prenatal chiropractor, lactation, transportation, housing, addiction recovery, basically anything and everything that can affect a woman who is pregnant or parenting and try to find resources in those worlds and bring them together.

[361] So I got involved at 15 years old.

[362] Often you will hear people say, I grew up in a home where we were just pro -life from the beginning.

[363] Many women in my family, I have a Hispanic family.

[364] have experienced abortion.

[365] Not all of them are on the same page about what they think abortion policy should be, but this came upon me, and I think even my family members who find themselves pro -choice are appreciative of the side of the movement that I've been able to expose them to, which is legitimately caring and legitimately meeting needs.

[366] Interesting.

[367] But, Anya, I want to go back to when you were 15 Because I guess in my mind, I'm thinking, why would a 15 -year -old get so interested in this?

[368] You know, I mean, you could be, I don't know, going to the mall, playing video games, being a 15 -year -old.

[369] Like, why is such a serious topic for you at that age?

[370] Like, bring me back to that moment.

[371] Well, Mississippi has some of the highest on -planned pregnancy rates, some of the highest teen pregnancy rates, as you probably have heard before.

[372] And I did have peers who had become pregnant or who had considered.

[373] abortion or adoption or parented young, I had seen it myself.

[374] And I recall a friend reaching out to me, I believe when I was 15 and she was 16.

[375] And why she called me, I don't really know.

[376] You could call that divine providence.

[377] You could just call it the rapport we had, but I needed to know where to send her.

[378] And so when this came across my, you would say my death, but I was 15.

[379] So, you know, in plain view for me, I knew, okay, this is going to keep happening.

[380] I'm going to need to know where to send people.

[381] And she was able to connect with a student group and a church that helped her with child care, that people supplied me with items to drive down to give her.

[382] And stories like that have sprung up time after time all across our state.

[383] You mentioned, Anya, that this question kept popping up.

[384] I mean, were there a lot of young women in your life, girls in your life in school who this happened?

[385] to?

[386] Yes, and especially in college, many, many women that I went to school with or found our pregnant on campus club would come to us.

[387] We had a baby shower for student parents at Mississippi State that first served 15 student parents, and then the next year doubled to 30 student parents.

[388] Do you have a memory, Anya, of anyone you were working with during those times who was struggling with the choice of whether to have an abortion?

[389] I mean, was that, did that ever come up for you?

[390] Yes, I had a very good friend to this day who I barely knew in high school who reached out to me because she had seen me posting on social media about if you ever need support or resources to reach out.

[391] And she took the better part of an entire month to make her decision because she knew she was pregnant pretty early on.

[392] She had a big window to obtain an abortion.

[393] and she really was grappling with her own decision.

[394] And of course, I want her to make her own decision and tell me what she needs.

[395] I want to serve her in the way that she wants to be served.

[396] And really, she wanted to parent her child, but she was worried about a number of things.

[397] Like, will my parents accept me?

[398] This child was not going to be just white.

[399] Were there going to be racial tensions around the fact that her child was mixed race?

[400] and that's something she had to confront with in her own family and was she going to have what she needed financially or where was she going to live?

[401] And so these are the things we had to walk through together and I think it's completely understandable to be afraid in any of those scenarios.

[402] You wanted her to make her own decision, but would it have been hard to support her if that decision was abortion?

[403] I would have not driven her to an abortion.

[404] I would have not given her information to obtain an abortion.

[405] But oftentimes women need support emotionally after they make that choice.

[406] And so I would be able to point her towards professionals who can help her piece out the maybe complex emotions she's having.

[407] And she ended up parenting her child, who is a beautiful little boy to this day.

[408] She went on to marry a man who has become dad to that little boy.

[409] And she's had two more children and started her own business.

[410] And she says all the time that when she was, I believe, 17 at the time, she saw no future for herself.

[411] She thought that perhaps abortion was the only way for her to find happiness.

[412] And I've seen her bloom and help other women in her own same situation later on.

[413] How did you see your work?

[414] Do you think of yourself as a feminist?

[415] I do.

[416] I think that the goal of feminism is to elevate women.

[417] And I don't believe the vision of feminism includes removing the reproductive quality of a woman.

[418] I believe that society needs to take women for all that they are and not treat their fertility like a disease.

[419] Anya, do you feel embraced as a feminist?

[420] Or do you feel like you have been rejected by other feminists?

[421] I know there are times where pro -life feminist friends of mine have been, for instance, disinvited to the Women's March.

[422] I know that in college, when I said I was writing for a pro -life feminist publication, I had a professor say, well, that's kind of an oxymoron, isn't it?

[423] So I understand that there's rejection involved, but I'm fully embraced by the communities that I want an embrace from.

[424] And so I ultimately don't feel rejected.

[425] Where were you, Anya, when you heard the news about the leak of the draft from the Supreme Court?

[426] I was actually nursing my baby, just sitting at home with my family.

[427] I said out loud to my husband, did we just overturn Roe?

[428] And he wasn't prepared for that question.

[429] So he said, what do you mean by that?

[430] And so I pulled up the article from Politico for him.

[431] And we just, everyone was, I'm sure, as in your world, was texting and calling each other, trying to find out if this was legitimate, what it means.

[432] has this happened before.

[433] Yeah.

[434] I don't feel it's the time yet to make toast, but I feel hopeful.

[435] So I think that's where I have to reside until we have more information.

[436] Right.

[437] You're referring to the fact that it's just a draft.

[438] Yes.

[439] And I think time and time again, you know, different challenges have come to the Supreme Court and being in Mississippi, knowing that the challenge is coming from our own state, I think Mississippi sometimes can be the butt of jokes.

[440] And to be able to set a precedent like this that sets free, all of the states who've been working on the same things that we have is historical.

[441] It makes you feel like you're experiencing something that is going to be written about or an instance recorded for us to understand for years to come.

[442] Yeah, that in a way, it's your home state that made the history.

[443] Yes.

[444] I'm really proud.

[445] This was built by regular people.

[446] So to see that opinion reflected in the major court of opinion is really encouraging because we feel seen.

[447] You feel seen.

[448] Anya, thank you so much for talking to us.

[449] Yes, of course.

[450] Next week on the Daily.

[451] Part two.

[452] The other side of the fight.

[453] Abortion rights.

[454] We'll be right back.

[455] Here's what else you need to know today.

[456] On Thursday, Russian forces breached a steel plant in the embattled Ukrainian port city of Mariupol.

[457] The plant is the last holdout of Ukrainian forces in a large swath of Ukraine's south and east.

[458] The Ukrainian soldiers have held the Russians off for weeks, but the battle has intensified in recent days since some civilians, also in the plant, made it out.

[459] Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, is believed to be seeking a victory at the Marriopal plant by May 9th, a highly symbolic holiday in Russia, commemorating the Soviet Union's triumph over Nazi Germany.

[460] And the World Health Organization said that nearly 15 million more people died during the pandemic than would have died in normal times.

[461] The WHO said many countries had vastly underwent.

[462] undercounted COVID victims.

[463] For example, in Mexico, the death toll was twice as high as the government's official tally.

[464] In Egypt, deaths were 12 times the official toll.

[465] And in Pakistan, the figure was eight times as high.

[466] The estimates calculated by a global panel of experts were seen as the most reliable gauge of the true impact of the pandemic, given the large gaps in global health data.

[467] Today's episode was produced by Lindsay Garrison, just Jessica Chung and Michael Simon Johnson, with help from Claire Tennisketter.

[468] It was edited by Liz O 'Balen and Paige Cowett.

[469] Contains original music by Dan Powell, Alicia B. Etube, and Rowan Nemistow, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

[470] Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly.

[471] Tomorrow we're republishing a two -part series about the history of Roe v. wave.

[472] That's it for the daily.

[473] I'm Sabrina Tavernisi.

[474] See you on Monday.