S4 E2: Living with the Dogs

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] This podcast is intended for mature audiences and discusses topics that could be triggering to some.

[11] Opinions expressed by guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of this podcast.

[12] I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[13] All resources, books, and sources mentioned on the podcast can be found linked in the episode notes.

[14] If you or someone you love is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Fire.

[15] Island's hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[16] If you or someone you love is struggling with a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 24 -7 at 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[17] Some of today's episode involves suicidal ideation or thoughts of suicide.

[18] Please take care when listening.

[19] Thank you.

[20] In today's society, we're having millions of followers is paramount.

[21] Colts are just as relevant now as they've ever been.

[22] In fact, they're bigger, bolder, and more abusive than ever.

[23] In Stephen Hassan's book, Combating Colt Mind Control, he writes, In the past decade, the destructive cult phenomenon has mushroomed into a problem of tremendous social and political importance.

[24] It is estimated that there are now over 3 ,000 destructive cults in the United States, directly affecting more than 3 million people.

[25] These organizations come in many different types and sizes.

[26] Some have hundreds of millions of dollars, others are relatively poor.

[27] Some, however, are more clearly dangerous than others.

[28] The largest and most destructive are not content to simply exercise their control over the lives of their members.

[29] They have an agenda to gain political power and use it to reshape American society, or even the world.

[30] Considering how well these Colts have been largely able to shield themselves from public scrutiny, it might seem alarmist to regard them as a threat to individual liberty and society as a whole.

[31] Yet, some are influencing the political landscape through extensive lobbying efforts and electioneering for candidates.

[32] Some are attempting to influence United States foreign policy by lobbying covertly for foreign powers.

[33] In the United States, Colts exert tremendous economic class.

[34] by buying up huge blocks of real estate and taking over hundreds of businesses.

[35] Some enter corporations under the pretense of offering exclusive leadership training, while harboring a covert agenda of taking over the company.

[36] Some seek to influence the judicial system by spending millions of dollars annually on top attorneys to bend the law to their will.

[37] Since all destructive cults believe that their ends justify any means, no matter how harmful, they typically believe themselves to be above the law.

[38] As long as what they believe they are doing is right and just, many of them feel justified to lie, steal, cheat, or use any and all forms of undue influence to accomplish their ends.

[39] They routinely violate in the most profound and fundamental way the civil and religious liberties of the people they recruit.

[40] They turn unsuspecting people into slaves.

[41] A deconstructive cult is a group of that violates its members' rights and damages them through abusive techniques of unethical mind control.

[42] It distinguishes itself from a normal, healthy social or religious group by subjecting its members to systematic control of behavior, information, thoughts, and emotions to keep them dependent and obedient.

[43] Hassan continues, why is there so much complacency about the threat of mind control cults.

[44] First, accepting that mind control can be effectively used on almost anybody challenges the age -old notion that human beings are rational and responsible for all of their actions.

[45] Such a worldview does not allow for any concept of mind control.

[46] Second, we all have a belief in our own invulnerability.

[47] It's too scary to think that someone could take control of our minds.

[48] We all want to have a belief in our own ability to completely control our lives.

[49] Third, the process of influence starts from the moment we are born.

[50] So it's easy to take the position that everything is mind control.

[51] First, there is the idea that human beings are inherently rational.

[52] If people operate from such a viewpoint, they believe that cult members have rationally chosen to live a deviant lifestyle.

[53] Furthermore, we human beings aren't totally rational creatures.

[54] Complete rationality denies our emotional and physical nature.

[55] The condition of our bodies has a tremendous impact on the way we function psychologically.

[56] Have you ever gone for days without any sleep?

[57] If so, you probably weren't functioning rationally and likely you weren't in total control of your every action.

[58] Have you ever gone without food for days?

[59] The mind begins to hallucinate when the body doesn't have enough sleep or food.

[60] In such circumstances, our physiology undermines our rationality.

[61] Then there is a belief in our own invulnerability.

[62] This kind of behavior is called blaming the victim.

[63] Blaming the victim plays an important psychological role in allowing us to distance ourselves from the person who was hurt.

[64] In this way, we say to ourselves, such a thing couldn't happen to me, because I am different.

[65] I know better.

[66] Our need to believe that we are invulnerable though is actually a weakness that is easily played upon by cult recruiters.

[67] For example, a recruiter could say, now Bill, you strike me as a very intelligent, worldly type person.

[68] You would never allow anyone to force you to do something you wouldn't want to.

[69] Fobias are an intense fear reaction to someone or something.

[70] A phobic reaction can range from very mild to very severe.

[71] An intense phobic reaction can cause physical responses like a racing heartbeat, dry mouth, sweating, and muscle tension.

[72] Phobias can immobilize people and keep them from doing things that they truly want to do.

[73] Indeed, phobias can rob people of free choice.

[74] Often people develop phobias as a result of a traumatic life experience.

[75] For example, a friend dies in a plane crash.

[76] We learn to associate extremely negative feelings with the object.

[77] The structure of phobia involves several internal components that interact to cause a vicious cycle.

[78] These components include worrisome thoughts, negative internal images, and feelings of dread and being out of control.

[79] In some colts, members are systematically made to be phobic about ever leaving the group.

[80] Today's Colts know how to effectively implant vivid negative images deep within members' unconscious minds, making it impossible for them to even conceive of ever being happy and successful outside of the group.

[81] Members are programmed, either overtly or subtly, to believe that if they ever leave, they will die of some horrible disease, be hit by a car, be killed by a plane, or perhaps cause the death of loved ones.

[82] Colt phobia's take away people's choices.

[83] Members truly believe they will be destroyed if they leave the safety of the group.

[84] They think there is no way outside of the group for them to grow, spiritually, intellectually, or emotionally.

[85] Mind control groups constantly change their doctrines and policies.

[86] Members are constantly exiting, and leaders need to keep lying and changing policies to maintain control.

[87] Abuse of Colts and its leaders have to be masters of gaslighting in order to attract members and keep them silent.

[88] Last season, I referenced the book Gaslighting by Dr. Sarkas many times.

[89] On Colts, she writes, Any person or organization can exhibit cult -like behavior and can strive to take advantage and gaslight you.

[90] Additionally, we are hearing more and more about the rise of extremist groups, whose values are based in religion or a particular belief, such as white nationalism.

[91] Colts and extremist groups exist in every country and in every cultural group.

[92] No one is immune.

[93] Colts have torn apart families, caused permanent psychological damage, and have gotten members and outsiders killed.

[94] They break down a person's psyche and replace it with the prescribed beliefs of leadership.

[95] Colts have long -lasting effects on people's emotional and even physical health.

[96] health, even years after leaving the cult.

[97] Some cults and extremist groups are not so much about a belief system or religion.

[98] They are about gaining control of people and fleecing them of their money and dignity.

[99] In a cult or extremist group, one leader or a set of leaders must be followed or else, and the consequences can range from monetary fines to physical punishments or even death.

[100] Other extremist groups, such as white nationalists, focus on a particular ideal.

[101] and use the hallmarks of gaslighting, lying, distorting, etc., to recruit members.

[102] Colts, extremist groups, and closed communities may include the following unhealthy behaviors.

[103] You are locked in.

[104] You no longer have free will.

[105] You're not supposed to ask questions or to question leaders' authority.

[106] You are told that the group is superior to other groups and people.

[107] They'll tell you they can raise your children better than you can.

[108] They'll sabotage and undermine family relationships, particularly between parent and child.

[109] Your children are taken from you or to be raised by the group's members, and you are told it is in your child's best interest.

[110] Your children must attend a specific school.

[111] Older members are married to the Colts children.

[112] Your spouse is chosen for you from within the group.

[113] Money usually flows to the leaders to buy lavish items while followers live in relative poverty.

[114] There is no clear accounting of funds.

[115] You are pressured to give them large or regular sums of money.

[116] You're told you need to leave your money to the group upon your death.

[117] You're told to give up all of your possessions and may be encouraged to give them all to the group.

[118] They operate businesses with other names and hide their true affiliation.

[119] They may have splintered off from a legitimate religion due to their extreme beliefs.

[120] Science is seen as wrong.

[121] They have a series of strict rules or laws.

[122] There is a strict dress code or mandatory uniform.

[123] Specific ways of eating, sleeping, and interacting are deemed to be for or against the group norms.

[124] Specific jargon is used that does not exist outside the group and its members.

[125] Isolating behaviors are used to keep you in the cult and not divulge information to outsiders.

[126] Demeaning names are given to people who are not members of the group.

[127] Punishments can range from psychological to physical.

[128] leaders sexually abuse minors and other followers.

[129] You are expected to commit crimes with or on behalf of the group.

[130] Mental health treatment is shunned.

[131] If you leave the designated buildings or compound for any reason, you are followed or chaperoned.

[132] A good opportunity for you, example a new job, is seen as a threat.

[133] Your family is told to shun you if you leave.

[134] You are stocked and harassed if you leave.

[135] Many of these behaviors are what gaslighters do.

[136] There is coercion and manipulation of others, manipulating for personal gain, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse, and fostering dependency, among others.

[137] You may find similarities between these behaviors and those of gaslighters who abuse their partners.

[138] Much like Colts of today operate, the People's Temple Church attracted its members by focusing its attention and good works on political and social topics that motivated.

[139] people emotionally.

[140] Civil rights and socialism seemed to be the church's main focus.

[141] Many churches at the time were still segregated and seeing people from many cultures and life circumstances was one of the things that attracted the Bogue family to the people's temple.

[142] As someone who cares about social justice and equality, I can see the allure the church had.

[143] Though the church's public image was that of unity and equality, things were much different on the inside.

[144] I'm Tiffany.

[145] I'm Tiffany, Reese, and this is, something was wrong.

[146] When I first met with Leah and her father, Mayor Tom Bog, they both expressed how disappointed they had become by the media from past interviews.

[147] Tom had given so much time and energy to the press in the past, only to see hours and days spent being interviewed whittled down to a clip of a few minutes.

[148] Here's Tom.

[149] I can't actually tell you just how many times I have actually done anywhere from four to eight hour interviews, how many times I've done multiple day interviews, how for one company, we actually did interviewing and filming for four days, another one for five days, and really after all that filming and we're talking hundreds of hours of interviews and filming and then out of all that they would take a two -minute clip and say oh it was horrific well that's what you took away from all that interviewing you did and how does that help us in the future yes how does that keep the next person from from the losing their child it doesn't it just perpetuates the machine of stories yes and just reinforces in other people's mind well that can never happen to me that's exactly We're not telling the human story.

[150] We're telling the surface level story.

[151] So that's why people walk around thinking this could never happen to me. I could never be an abusive relationship.

[152] I could never be in a cult.

[153] I could never be any of those things because they don't see that people who survive these things are just everyday human beings.

[154] Yes, from all levels of education.

[155] Mm -hmm.

[156] A hundred percent.

[157] Yes.

[158] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[159] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[160] In January 2022, local woman Karen R. Reid was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[161] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[162] What happens next depends on who you ask.

[163] Was it a crime of passion?

[164] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[165] This was clearly an intentional act.

[166] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[167] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[168] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[169] Everyone had an opinion.

[170] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[171] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[172] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[173] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[174] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[175] I'm Dan Taberski.

[176] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[177] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[178] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[179] She's like, I can't.

[180] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[181] Like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[182] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on.

[183] on the download.

[184] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[185] Well, you were holding something back.

[186] Intentionally.

[187] Yeah, yeah.

[188] Well, yeah.

[189] No, it's hysteria.

[190] It's all in your head.

[191] It's not physical.

[192] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[193] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[194] Or is it something else entirely?

[195] Something's wrong here.

[196] Something's not right.

[197] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[198] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[199] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[200] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[201] As you learned in last week's episode, the Bogue family became members of the People's Temple around 1965, when the church was meeting in the Redwood Valley, California area.

[202] The only other time Jim has been interviewed, it was by a woman named Julia Shears, whom wrote the book, A Thousand Lives, The Untold Story of Jonestown.

[203] Based on the interviews the author did with Jim and Tom Bogue, she wrote.

[204] Unlike other members, Jim Bogue's reasons for joining the people's temple were not lofty.

[205] A father's heartbreak drove him to Jim Jones.

[206] In the summer of 1962, he took his family on a camping trip to a beach in Northern California.

[207] As dust fell on the first night, Jim gathered his three children, his daughters, Tina, Juanita, and Merrily, to watch the fishermen catch night smelt, Tommy, a few months shy of one, and his brother Jonathan, two, stayed behind with their mother, Edith.

[208] Bogue and his daughters watched men haul nets of eel -like fish from the thundering surf until the Pacific cold wind drove them back to the tent.

[209] It was only then that Jonathan's absence was noted.

[210] The toddler had simply wandered off, perhaps trying to catch up with his dad and big sisters.

[211] Edith assumed that her husband had the boy, and he assumed the same.

[212] The beach was dark, the waves surging with the rising tide.

[213] Word of the missing child raced down the beach, and strangers ran over the sand shouting Jonathan's name, their flashlights raking the night.

[214] A few hours later, his tiny body washed ashore a few miles south of the campsite.

[215] The devastating loss propelled Jim Bogue on a spiritual quest.

[216] He'd been raised Mormon, but left the sect when he left his parents home.

[217] He had no interest in pacing the streets for two years on the obligatory mission.

[218] He liked his smokes and beer, but Jonathan's death made him long for the same sense of cosmic order he'd had as a boy.

[219] He wanted to know what happened to the souls of children, and if there was any way he could see his beloved son again.

[220] He visited a clairvoyant, consulted a Buddhist priest, and devoured books on parapsychology, ESP, and paranormal activity.

[221] He couldn't discuss his pursuit with Edith.

[222] Each of them blamed the other for their son's death.

[223] And this precluded all discussion of the tragedy.

[224] They'd had problems communicating long before Jonathan died.

[225] Edith was a quiet woman who found Jim difficult to read, even after 14 years of marriage and five children.

[226] The pair had met when he was 22 and she was 15.

[227] He owned a gas station in Fairfield, California, and she walked past it on her way to high school.

[228] In those days, he thought she was as cute as above.

[229] his ear.

[230] He was awkward with women and was therefore surprised when she returned his smile.

[231] When the sidewalk flirtation became physical, Edith's mother drove them to Reno to get married.

[232] Edith bore her first child at 17.

[233] But she never settled into the marriage and continued to flirt and more with other men.

[234] Jim heard about her escapades from his in -laws and sometimes from the men themselves.

[235] He tried to her behavior.

[236] She was a child when they met, and he figured she felt robbed of her youth.

[237] He'd hoped she'd ease into the marriage, but the affairs continued.

[238] After Jonathan died, they retreated into separate corners to grieve, and the chasm between them widened.

[239] In the middle of the bog's questioning, he moved his family to Yucaya, California, to be closer to his parents.

[240] It was there that he heard about a preacher just up the road who claimed to be a seer.

[241] And so, on a Sunday in 1965, he drove his family 13 minutes up Highway 101 to Redwood Valley to see if Jim Jones had the answers to his questions.

[242] As he entered the building where Jones was holding services, Bogue noticed that the crowd's adoration for the preacher was almost palpable.

[243] He watched closely as Jones called out private details about the people in the pews and ordered a wheelchair -bound woman to rise and walk, then dance up the aisles.

[244] He did indeed seem to possess some kind of extraordinary power.

[245] When Reverend Jones laid his hands on bent supplicants, they rose up with renewed hope, a hope and renewal Bogue wanted for himself.

[246] At the urging of several members, the Bogue stayed for a potluck after the service.

[247] Jones sat down next to Bogue and told him of his dream of founding a community based on equality and love, where no one would be hungry, marginalized, or lonely.

[248] The pastor exuded serenity.

[249] In his warm brown eyes and boyish smile, Bogue found compassion.

[250] The family spent the better part of that Sunday at the church, and on the drive home, Jim Bogue felt a little less hollow inside.

[251] Perhaps this church represented the healing that their family needed.

[252] They returned the next Sunday and the next, and were quickly drawn into temple life.

[253] They attended picnics and dances and helped paint other members' homes and organize food drives.

[254] Their children played with the temple kids.

[255] Edith volunteered for secretarial work and helped with the church's telephone tree.

[256] The temple helped the couple focus on something larger than themselves.

[257] The Bogues didn't need temple charity.

[258] They opened a care home for mentally disabled adults out of one side of their duplex, and Jim did occasional massage work, a family trade on the side.

[259] Like other members, the Bogues agreed to donate 15 % of their income to further Jones' ministry.

[260] And when Jones raised members' contributions to 25%, they didn't object.

[261] There was so much need in the world.

[262] Neither did they talk back when Jones asked if they could house a couple of temple members who were down on their luck.

[263] But the glow faded for Jim Bogue after a few months.

[264] Reverend Jones had a doomsday obsession that didn't resonate with him.

[265] He learned that the primary reason why the church moved to California from the Midwest was to avoid a nuclear attack.

[266] The attack never happened, and the whole thing sounded a bit absurd to him.

[267] And then there was the false affidavits.

[268] He'd sat in a room with a large group of members as a church secretary told them to incriminate themselves on paper.

[269] The statements were merely a loyalty test, she said.

[270] They'd be filed away for safekeeping and only made public if a member tried to betray the cause.

[271] Parents were told specifically to confess to molesting their children.

[272] Bogue blanched at this.

[273] saw other parents that he respected right without hesitation.

[274] Still, he paused pen in hand.

[275] Most temple members would have a moment like this at one point or another, a moment where they ignored their gut instinct and followed the crowd.

[276] Some members crossed that line and forgot about it.

[277] Others were nagged by the scene of wrongness.

[278] Jim Bogg dashed off a sentence claiming to have abused his three daughters and handed the paper to the secretary, eager to get rid of the repugnant words.

[279] His, quote, confession was collected with everyone else's and filed away in the church office.

[280] But it lingered in his mind like an insult.

[281] When he told Edith he was quitting the church, she appeared to take the news calmly, but Edith was smitten with Jim Jones.

[282] And the first thing she did after her husband's announcement was to consult her pastor.

[283] Jones gave her detailed instructions on how to proceed.

[284] The next afternoon, as Bogue refurbished a a second -hand trailer that he'd bought for a family trip to see his brother in Alaska, a patrol car from the Mendocino County Sheriff's Department nosed up the driveway.

[285] A deputy walked over and handed him an eviction order and a separation petition.

[286] Stunned, he left to spend the night at his parents' house.

[287] The next morning, he marched back into his house and told Edith he wasn't going anywhere.

[288] It was his home, too.

[289] She threatened to divorce him and take the kids unless he returned to the people's Temple.

[290] She also let him know that, with Jones' encouragement, she'd drained their joint bank account and taken his name off of the care home license.

[291] Her actions left Bogue penniless and homeless.

[292] He refused to leave the house.

[293] A few hours later, one of Jones' associate pastors, Archie Imes, showed up.

[294] Ims reminded Bogue about the statement he'd signed saying he molested his daughters.

[295] Bogue started a protest, but Ims cut him off.

[296] The false confessions were men.

[297] for situations like these, where members tried to betray the church by leaving.

[298] Bogue was numb with anger.

[299] When he called Jones to complain, the preacher was too busy to talk to him.

[300] Bogue was at a loss.

[301] Jones was esteemed in the community, friendly with local power brokers.

[302] Bogue's first job after moving to Yucaya was a janitor at a courthouse, where he developed a healthy fear of authority.

[303] Who was he to defy Jim Jones?

[304] Confronted with Jones' brazen interference with his private life, he felt like the country mouse.

[305] Timid, feeble, and tongue -tied, he gave the situation more thought.

[306] Despite everything, he loved Edith, and what was church once a week, compared to losing his family, his home, and his financial security.

[307] And so he did what he'd always done.

[308] He shut his mouth and he gritted it out.

[309] When Edith struck up a relationship with a family friend and temple member, Harold Cordell, he pretended it wasn't happening.

[310] Harold Cordell was also married, a father of five kids.

[311] Bogue rebuilt Harold's electric stove when it broke and lent him money to buy a car.

[312] One day, Bogue returned from his second job working the late shift at the Masonite company as a machine operator and found Harold sleeping on top of his bed, while Edith slept under the covers.

[313] Edith swore nothing had happened.

[314] She gave him some drawn -out, convoluted reason that seemed perfectly logical to the two of them, and Bogue didn't know what to believe.

[315] As he turned on his heel, he briefly entertained the notion of shooting them both and stuffing their bodies into the septic tank in the backyard.

[316] He tamped down his violent emotions.

[317] He'd trained himself by then not to do the normal thing.

[318] Since Jones forced him to rejoin the church, he'd signed more false statements and confessed to being a violent revolution, revolutionary who would kill, quote, for the cause.

[319] He'd watched children, including his own, beaten and struggled to override his human and paternal instincts to protect them.

[320] He'd transported food that was stolen from a San Francisco warehouse and distributed it to church communes.

[321] He'd sunk in deeper and deeper.

[322] Bogue needed to believe that the scene on his marital bed was innocent.

[323] He considered Harold a good friend, but more importantly, Harold was Jones bus driver and a planning commission member.

[324] He was in a position of power and Bogue was not.

[325] I was so mad at her and Harold that I just couldn't be beside myself.

[326] I mean, I dreamed things of shooting them and putting them in the septic tank.

[327] And I actually felt that.

[328] I'd come home from work at Mason night and he would be in my bed.

[329] Of course, I didn't know about the other pressures that he was on him.

[330] And he had a wife and six kids.

[331] But Jones put him with Edith to keep him in control.

[332] I didn't know that was going on.

[333] And I was mad.

[334] I was mad.

[335] Mad for a couple years.

[336] I've just mad.

[337] I know that I could feel the separation.

[338] And I really didn't like that.

[339] And oftentimes the way people are manipulated into those type of relationships is when you're trying to use one to control another or even to control both of them, a lot of times what you do is you will put them in contact with each other a lot.

[340] So they form a familiarity with each other.

[341] And then you escalate them to a higher position than the ones you're not concerned with, the other spouses.

[342] And then you degrade or not necessarily verbally, but degrade them in a sense of giving them in minimal or menial tasks, which will degrade their position with the spouse while elevating the other positions to give a different level of importance.

[343] And when you do that over a length of time, those two will develop a relationship.

[344] And then that relationship starts to blossom on its own after a while.

[345] So that's one of the ways that people are manipulated and then ultimately the spouses are pulled away and the two that they're really trying to control are kept together and they feel it's a normal process of feeling that they're something like Stockholm syndrome and and that's just taken and used in another manner.

[346] And that's how these things were done.

[347] Did they try to match you with someone else?

[348] Not here in the States down there.

[349] She put me, he put me with a with a woman down there.

[350] But here in the States, they were keeping him busy, doing other stuff like roofing people's houses, working on this, working on that, constantly keeping them away from the home, even more so than the job.

[351] And driving them damn buses.

[352] Yeah.

[353] Six or seven buses.

[354] See, and that's all part of the process.

[355] It's a separate, divide, conquer that, and push the center together where you want it.

[356] As Jim became further victimized and blackmailed by the church, The group's leaders worked to further isolate Jim and Edith from one another, as well as from their own children.

[357] By design, Jim began to feel powerless and worthless.

[358] The church had convinced him that he was the problem, and Jim became so emotionally ruined, he began sleeping in the literal doghouse.

[359] That would take me back to my days I want to live with the dogs.

[360] I mean, I felt so powerless.

[361] Yeah, I mean, I had no power anymore.

[362] I didn't have no reasoning anymore.

[363] I felt like everybody had turned against me. So he moved out to the barn with the dogs.

[364] Literally.

[365] Yeah.

[366] How long did you stay?

[367] I don't know how long was a couple weeks.

[368] Pretty quick you start learning how to get through it.

[369] And this was one of my deal.

[370] The other was learning how to get through the whole mess.

[371] I tried to be smart.

[372] I tried to have a project going all the time, just didn't want to get in trouble.

[373] And, of course, you always got this other people who would come up.

[374] You think you're so smart, Jim Bog.

[375] You just think you can do everything.

[376] Damn rights.

[377] I applied the pressure.

[378] where I needed to.

[379] Next time.

[380] You think you know me, you don't know me well at all.

[381] Learned early on that leaving wouldn't be as easy a person would think it would be.

[382] Something was wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

[383] If you'd like to help support the growth of some of something, something was wrong, you can help by leaving a five -star review on iTunes, sharing the podcast on social media, signing up to support on patreon .com, supporting our sponsors, or simply telling your friends, or your family, or your teacher, or your therapist, librarian, male person, Valentine, football coach, barista, bartender, barber, Girl Scout troop leader.

[384] your life coach, your sponsor.

[385] Okay, you get the point.

[386] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[387] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon music.

[388] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.

[389] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[390] I'm Sachi Cole.

[391] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[392] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once a facade falls away.

[393] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills and active lawsuit followed by Larry.

[394] King and no real product to push.

[395] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[396] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[397] Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[398] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.