EXPERTS ON EXPERT: John Kim

[0] Welcome, welcome to Experts on Expert, Monica.

[1] Hi.

[2] How you doing?

[3] Wonderful.

[4] You look fantastic.

[5] Thank you.

[6] I'm wearing a skirt today.

[7] Yep, it's a big day.

[8] There's a birthday party we're celebrating today, and Monica is dressed for the occasion.

[9] But that's not what we're here to tell you about.

[10] We're here to tell you about our guest, John Kim, who wrote a book entitled, That Used to Be miserable fuck and Every Man's Guide to a Meaningful Life.

[11] John became divorced.

[12] Can you say Became?

[13] Sure.

[14] He became.

[15] that he became divorce and he is a licensed therapist and he started a blog that got very popular called the angry therapist and he kind of worked through his own issues out loud and worked his feelings out in public and the result of which is his book he's a a very fun likable lovely person very very kind and nice yeah and thoughtful and cute and cute yeah so please enjoy john kim Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[16] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[17] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[18] He's an armchair expert.

[19] John Kim, welcome to armchair expert.

[20] Thank you for having me. Now, before we even talk about important stuff, you've ridden a motorcycle here today.

[21] I noticed out front.

[22] It appears to be a Harley.

[23] and you're telling me it's called a road glide?

[24] A road glide.

[25] A road glide.

[26] Yes.

[27] It's what we call a grandpa Harley, which I told myself I would never buy until I a test drove one.

[28] And it just, fuck, it made me feel invincible.

[29] Right?

[30] 12 feet tall and bulletproof.

[31] Yeah.

[32] And I'm only 5 '8 with the product of my hair.

[33] And where are you from?

[34] Are you born in L .A.?

[35] I was born in Korea.

[36] I came here when I was three.

[37] Oh, okay.

[38] Yeah.

[39] How did your parents make their way here?

[40] So my parents came here with $500, two Korean kids.

[41] My dad was in the military.

[42] We're from South Korea.

[43] And we ended up in Georgia.

[44] This is the 70s, lots of racism.

[45] Oh, sure.

[46] Well, Monica, your friend here on your left is from Georgia.

[47] And as you can see, she is not the hegemonic white person.

[48] I'm not.

[49] Suburbs of Atlanta.

[50] But my mom grew up in Savannah.

[51] So we were in Columbus in the 70s.

[52] And I was only like three, but I remember.

[53] walking into a restaurant and feeling the race.

[54] I remember feeling unwanted.

[55] You felt like the other?

[56] Holy shit, yeah.

[57] You know, all the racial slurs.

[58] And so my parents, we moved very fast from there into a VW bug and we drove to California.

[59] And I've been in L .A. my entire life.

[60] I'm 45 now.

[61] Okay.

[62] Good.

[63] You're a little older than me. I always feel better when someone's older than me here.

[64] Two years old.

[65] You're that much closer to the end than I am.

[66] Yes.

[67] So what age did you get to California for?

[68] five or still three three three they spent like a weekend in georgia in they're like let's get the fuck out of my god if i felt it and i don't remember my childhood um it must have been bad yeah yeah so i remember uh my mom uh worked at a stop and go which is like a 7 -11 in georgia the 17 hour uh days and she would make Korean food and they'd be like what the fuck get the fuck out of my you know so she would get a lot of criticism because she was eating kimchi kimchi like that kind of shit And I grew up embarrassed of that kind of stuff.

[69] Now it's like that shit's in Trader Joe's.

[70] Yes, you guys were ahead of the curve.

[71] Yes.

[72] And I remember here in L .A., when you go to K -Town Korean barbecues, it was all Korean, now it's all white.

[73] Yeah.

[74] It's sprinkled with Korean people.

[75] Yeah.

[76] I feel like the hipsters embraced it first.

[77] Like, let's go get Korean barbecue.

[78] Yes.

[79] And now it seems ubiquitous.

[80] But, I mean, it's a good thing.

[81] I love it.

[82] But now, yes.

[83] So I like talking to Monica a lot about, because I think.

[84] it is so hard to live in this country and look different than all the other white kids that are around you.

[85] And then there seems to be these things like indicators of your otherness that are triggering.

[86] So like kimchi.

[87] Right.

[88] Your house maybe smelled like kimchi when you brought little kids home.

[89] Were you embarrassed by that smell?

[90] So I grew up in the 80s, dirt bikes, Bob Hannah, you know, that whole era, in Rowland Heights.

[91] In Roland Heights now is very fast and furious Asian.

[92] But before, it was all white and Hispanic.

[93] We were the only Asian -Oriental family.

[94] Back then, you were Oriental.

[95] I think Oriental is kind of pretty.

[96] Sounds nice.

[97] I like it.

[98] I've been trying to bring it back and people aren't down.

[99] I've been making that exact same argument to Monica.

[100] It's certainly not my position to say it.

[101] But there's some romantic notion about like the Oriental Express Railroad.

[102] I can imagine it being reclaimed by Asians the way the N -word was reclaimed by the black community.

[103] If you say you're Asian, it's just very broad.

[104] It's too broad, in my opinion.

[105] And, you know, if you say you're Oriental, it makes me feel special a little bit.

[106] To me, it takes my mind straight to China, as opposed to the subcontinent of India, which Asia includes.

[107] I mean, at least you're narrowing down a tiny bit towards where...

[108] It makes me feel like you're handmade.

[109] Like a doll.

[110] Like an Oriental rug?

[111] Yes.

[112] Why did that become offensive?

[113] I don't know.

[114] Well, my understanding of it is that the Orient is a very specific region.

[115] Although we looked at it, that's not true.

[116] Yeah, we just, I just got proven wrong about that.

[117] It really just means east.

[118] It's like Occidental.

[119] It's actually more general than Asia or equal.

[120] Although it is and it isn't, because I don't think, do you think people in Europe think of India as the east?

[121] No one thinks that, but I think the actual definitely.

[122] definition is just east yeah yeah so it would at least excluded um you know india afghanistan pakistan all that stuff it would have been a little more specific well afghanistan and um whatever you said is i don't think asia that would be middle east i think that's eurasia middle east that's what now is the middle east yeah it's just tricky because afghanistan borders stand board is India.

[123] I don't know where we're drawing the line, but regardless, though, I want to, were you embarrassed of your parents?

[124] Yes, I was embarrassed to be Korean.

[125] So I grew up in an all, quote, Caucasian world and being the only orientals for blocks, I had to do something to fit in.

[126] And so I wasn't a smart person.

[127] I didn't, you know, all the stereotypes didn't apply to me like math.

[128] And so I got into break.

[129] dancing.

[130] Oh, okay.

[131] And so as a break dancer, I feel like in the 80s, they would only let in one Asian person to be cool.

[132] A token.

[133] A token, right.

[134] And so I was very lucky, and I got in through some kind of ability.

[135] So it was breakdancing.

[136] And so I got to be in the crew.

[137] And once I was in the crew, then I was protected by the older Hispanic dudes and all that.

[138] Right.

[139] And then.

[140] And so can I just point out?

[141] Yeah.

[142] Because I want to include Monica, because I think you guys have such a common story.

[143] Were you a breakdancer?

[144] No, but basically she became a cheerleader, which what could be more generically white girl activity than like cheering?

[145] Yeah.

[146] It's deep.

[147] If you're good at something, they can't exclude you.

[148] Well, because you make yourself indispensable, right?

[149] Well, then it's not about your skin.

[150] Yeah.

[151] And then you bond over that thing.

[152] Like we were just talking about motorcycles, right?

[153] And if you ride, then there's a little, there's a bond there because you know what that person likes.

[154] and how they, you know, how they, yeah, et cetera.

[155] So with breakdancing, suddenly, they forgot that I was yellow.

[156] Yes.

[157] But, oh, look, he could spin on his head.

[158] Yeah, you know.

[159] Sure.

[160] And so here's a good thing about dancing.

[161] Women like it.

[162] Oh, sure.

[163] Well, absolutely.

[164] Yeah.

[165] And so.

[166] There's a certain connotation that it's going to transfer between the sheets.

[167] Like, somehow it does.

[168] You think, oh, this person's like, can move their body.

[169] Yes.

[170] They're in control of their body.

[171] They have rhythm.

[172] I think, I think it works in two ways, one, the coordination.

[173] Mm -hmm.

[174] but also confidence.

[175] Oh, yeah.

[176] Right?

[177] Yeah.

[178] And I think that shit ripples.

[179] And you're observing someone perhaps doing something great and watching other men look at that and aspire to that.

[180] So there's an implied status element to it too.

[181] It's like, oh, if these guys think that guy's cool, then he must have some status.

[182] What's the woman's version of, because I think most women love a man who can dance.

[183] Mm -hmm.

[184] Um, especially, actually, I think most men love a woman who's alive and has a heartbeat.

[185] Right.

[186] And a willingness to perhaps, uh, get horizontal.

[187] I think that's true.

[188] Anatomy is intact.

[189] Yeah, I think we're way less discerning.

[190] But, um, tell me about your relationship with your parents.

[191] Um, here's what's interesting about my, um, my parents.

[192] So they speak very little English.

[193] It's broken.

[194] What's funny is they've been here as long as I have.

[195] Right.

[196] But they just.

[197] Well, but you were little.

[198] Right.

[199] And also at school and, you know.

[200] You were trying to, it was life or death that you assimilated.

[201] Yeah, yeah, right.

[202] Yeah, or I would have gotten beaten up.

[203] Yes.

[204] They were safe behind counters and businesses and all that.

[205] So they didn't have to speak English.

[206] Right.

[207] So they speak very little English.

[208] I speak very little Korean.

[209] I can speak Korean, but only like fourth grade level.

[210] Uh -huh.

[211] And so when we talk, it's just very like, are you hungry?

[212] Oh.

[213] What did you do?

[214] It's very basic.

[215] Yeah.

[216] And I had this revelation lately, because when I watch other people and their parents talk about deeper shit, I can't do that.

[217] Uh -huh.

[218] And I was like, that's actually really sad.

[219] And you've attributed to the language barrier, but I do wonder if there's also a cultural barrier.

[220] Oh, 100%.

[221] Because I've, like, Monica will explain her relationship with her parents to me. And I'll say, no, they really do want you to say, I love you.

[222] Like, they want to.

[223] They want you to say that.

[224] And so I was trying, I was badgering her with it.

[225] That's what they really want.

[226] And then we watched, there was an episode of, Master of Nunn, where the whole episode was about the fact that his Asian friend and him, their parents don't want that.

[227] Yeah.

[228] It's just culturally they don't want it.

[229] And I had to concede that I was dead wrong.

[230] So do you think part of it is that too?

[231] Yeah, 100%.

[232] My dad grew up making his own shoes.

[233] They grew up in war -stricken poverty, bathrooms outside.

[234] Yeah.

[235] My mom used to carry pills of water to her village.

[236] So this idea of emotional intelligence, self -awareness.

[237] You had clothes and a skateboard.

[238] They probably felt like you're good, man. We don't also need to shower you and hourly affirmation.

[239] Their definition of love was we're just going to make you American.

[240] So I was wearing at 10, or 9 or 10, I was wearing a strawberry shortcake t -shirt.

[241] They didn't know that that was for women or girls.

[242] And so it was pretty sad.

[243] But breakdancing, breakdancing is where I had my edge.

[244] Yeah.

[245] You know, now fat laces, you know, the parachute pants and then like the cool kids.

[246] And I remember that's when girls started liking me. And I was embarrassed to be Korean.

[247] So she would come over, smell the kimchi.

[248] Sure.

[249] And be like, holy shit, what's this?

[250] Leave the house.

[251] Right.

[252] A lot of shame and guilt.

[253] Yes.

[254] And so I had a poster growing up of Michael Jee.

[255] exit on my wall and Heather Thomas.

[256] Absolutely.

[257] The white is, yeah, yeah, the lead of the fall guy, our female lead of the fall guy.

[258] And when you're staring at that, and she's like half naked, I shouldn't have been looking at that.

[259] She was leaning on a wooden hot tub, as I recall.

[260] Was that the poster?

[261] Yeah, the barrel, yep, and the barrel hot tub is behind her.

[262] That's the famous one.

[263] That's right.

[264] You could see everything.

[265] Mm -hmm.

[266] So for a nine, 10 -year -old, when you're absorbing that, and then you're looking at that every night.

[267] Yes.

[268] I ended up having sex with a plum.

[269] Ah, a plum.

[270] Plum, because I was so curious.

[271] Oh, you put your penis inside of a plum?

[272] Well, I knew that even at that age, it doesn't feel like a pie.

[273] This landed right where I hoped it would and quick.

[274] Okay, so you had an actual plum.

[275] I would, okay, so at nine, I was surrounded by, my parents were never home because they're always working.

[276] Working constantly.

[277] And I'm going to stereotype you.

[278] But did they have a social network where they got a loan and started a business from family?

[279] Yes, yes.

[280] It's kind of the trajectory, right?

[281] Stop and go 7 -11, 17 -hour week.

[282] Dad worked out, pulling phone cable, saved up money, bought a little hamburger shack the size of a photomat, and most people don't know what a photomat is, but it's a, right.

[283] A toll booth, basically, serving hamburgers.

[284] It was called AMO, and it was in Burbank, right next to the Burbank Studios.

[285] Oh.

[286] And it was called AMO because it's American, Mexican Oriental food.

[287] Oh.

[288] And I was like, well, you can't fucking mix egg rolls with tacos.

[289] She was ahead of her time, though, because that shit now is called Fusion.

[290] Did anyone stop there for bullets?

[291] Because it also says ammo if you read it quickly.

[292] Did anyone pull in for some like 30 out six rounds?

[293] No, this is the 80s.

[294] But it was busy because they could get egg rolls, tacos, and burgers.

[295] Oh, they really did all three of those things.

[296] And this little tiny photo.

[297] And my mom would.

[298] And did you work there?

[299] I went there all the time.

[300] I would bring my skateboard and then I would go watch like Christian Hesoy.

[301] Oh, sure.

[302] He must have been your hero.

[303] Oh, my God.

[304] That's who I wanted to be.

[305] He was an Asian god.

[306] He was kind of, is he half Asian?

[307] I don't know.

[308] He was the big air champ of the day.

[309] He could fly higher than anyone.

[310] Yes, and that Christair thing.

[311] Yeah.

[312] I just got, I literally have goosebumps right now all over my arms and everything.

[313] This is your generation.

[314] Yeah, absolutely.

[315] Hesoy was fucking awesome.

[316] So I met him once because right at the street was a place called Fastlane, a little skate shop.

[317] I would skate there and they had this whole event.

[318] I met him.

[319] I had a broken hand from skating.

[320] And on my cast, he wrote, Gopher Broke.

[321] Oh.

[322] And I thought he couldn't speak English because I'd never heard that term before.

[323] Uh -huh.

[324] Oh, he spoke the hell out of it.

[325] But, yeah, he was my, he was like, he was like, I want to be that guy.

[326] But the plum.

[327] The plum.

[328] Yes.

[329] Thank you for getting us back on track.

[330] My parents were always gone.

[331] So I was exposed to a lot of images really young.

[332] Uh -huh.

[333] Dirty magazines.

[334] Do you remember on TV?

[335] Oh, yes.

[336] But you and I have the same life.

[337] I've brought up on TV on here a dozen times.

[338] Oh, shit.

[339] hell it was.

[340] Right.

[341] And the Playboy Channel and all that.

[342] Yeah.

[343] So on, just to let people know, the first version of cable, it only came on at 8 p .m. And it came on what your Fox affiliate became.

[344] For us in Detroit, it was Channel 50.

[345] After 8, the image got scrambled.

[346] If you got an on box, it unscrambled it.

[347] So I'd sneak into my mom's room.

[348] They were never home and watched images scrambled or not, very curious.

[349] And back in the day, to get pornography, you had to actually know someone older who had a connection to get a magazine somewhere.

[350] or a VHS tape.

[351] We had to earn it.

[352] You had to earn it.

[353] Yeah, yeah.

[354] Pay for it.

[355] Yeah, yeah.

[356] Get beat up for it.

[357] And then if it was an image, you would fold that shit up and carry it in your back pocket for like months and just stare at the same image until it was just disintegrated.

[358] Yes, in fact, Monica just asked the other day if boys have favorite porno clips that they watch.

[359] And I said, I think now there's just such an overabundance of image that there would be no reason to...

[360] It's like watered down now.

[361] But you had one dirty magazine.

[362] when you were a kid in our era for 10 years yeah and you did have favorite spreads in there yes yes you could even build up do you knew that big image was coming on like page 11 oh my goodness so because of that I was just very sexually curious and very highly sexually um preoccupied my dad is also an alcoholic okay so I had congratulations oh well we have long comment and so I had the addictive gene uh -huh right obsessive compulsive obsessive compulsive that all that stuff um by the way when you said you're into break break dancing i already know that yeah that's one of those things where this thing obsessive compulsiveness addiction it's a double -edged sword so one of the things is you obsess over dancing you you you you you one needs to obsess over that to get good at it you right i would hit flow states lock myself in a room or on the driveway and for hours i would forget to eat uh -huh i mean i would you just you just which is kind of cool you you you submerge yourself into the craft yes and that's how you get good but again because you have a fucked up brain yeah because it's a fucked up brain yeah yeah but it got me yeah you got to learn to kind of minimize the downside maximize right the good sides of it yeah i mean at that age it's worth the fucked up brain because you get to be not bullied yes you know yes so you're you're obsessively sexual it's like i need to know what sex feels like uh -huh and i knew it didn't feel like a pie right even at that age i just knew it didn't feel like a pie sure so i thought a plum mm -hmm why not it has texture Right.

[363] And at nine, I don't need anything bigger than a plum.

[364] Right, right, right.

[365] So I cut a hole into a, into a plum.

[366] Okay.

[367] And to me, this seems pretty early.

[368] It's, I think it is early.

[369] Yeah, I don't, I think, like, for me, it was more like 12.

[370] Did you have any sexual trauma in your past?

[371] I don't think so.

[372] I was, I was left a few times at the neighbor's house or something because my parents worked so hard.

[373] Yeah.

[374] They were always gone.

[375] and I don't remember a lot of.

[376] I mean, I'm a therapist, so I should, you know, I talk about the stuff.

[377] I don't have anything that I remember traumatic, but I also wouldn't be surprised if something did happen.

[378] Yeah, it just seems, I guess when you're that, when you're sexualized that young, it's generally a not a bad question to go like, huh, wonder why.

[379] But it could be this American ideal of this white woman on your.

[380] Oh, it's all that.

[381] It's the imprint.

[382] The movie where the guy.

[383] It's very American.

[384] It's very American.

[385] It's very American.

[386] And also, I was the youngest in the breakdancing crew.

[387] They were 16, 17.

[388] Oh, they're talking about getting ass and stuff.

[389] They're smoking out.

[390] They're doing things.

[391] And I was just kind of like, you know, the world was very big.

[392] And I was very curious.

[393] Yes.

[394] But you didn't go back to it.

[395] It didn't become habitual.

[396] No, but it would be interesting to go back to it.

[397] Yeah.

[398] It might unlock your sexual trauma.

[399] Yeah.

[400] That's like that movie that, what's the movie last year about the gay guys?

[401] Oh, call me by my name?

[402] Call me by your name where he has sex with a peach.

[403] Oh.

[404] It's a big deal.

[405] So it's not just me. Other men have, this is good.

[406] I think there's a, I think they're just, they're just hiding.

[407] Who's hiding?

[408] Well, obviously, because I, you know.

[409] Oh, the people who have done this.

[410] I'll bet you other men listening to this will be like, oh, yeah, plum, peach, whatever, mango, apricots.

[411] I used to tell this in stand -up.

[412] In fact, I started getting boners at like, I don't know, 10 or 11.

[413] Yeah, me too.

[414] And I would finish the toilet paper roll.

[415] And I would see.

[416] Oh, that's a roll.

[417] That hurts.

[418] Like that, I, that my penis would go in there.

[419] And I remember humping like a toilet paper roll.

[420] And it was not pleasurable at all.

[421] But I just was intrinsically drawn to sticking it in that tube.

[422] Like, no one was telling me to do that.

[423] But it just, it looked, well, obvious.

[424] Yeah.

[425] And, uh, I put it inside a vacuum once.

[426] Okay, I've hurt, yes.

[427] Because that's kind of like the vacuum.

[428] Well, the vacuum hose.

[429] The suction of it.

[430] Oh.

[431] With it on.

[432] Right.

[433] This is a thing.

[434] Oh, it's very common.

[435] It is.

[436] That sounds horrible.

[437] But that was pretty much it.

[438] Yeah.

[439] Those are my kind of trials and tribulations.

[440] Well, and here's the thing.

[441] This is why, you know, the sooner, if you're a dad, you can tell all my clients.

[442] No, I think you probably gained a lot with your honesty.

[443] But what I would point out is that if you're a dad, you can't get in there too soon to explain how all this works.

[444] Because if you're just a little person with very little understanding of the world, yet very strong carnal desires and urges to do, things you're just going to start trying things um and i want to italicize that and maybe get back to that because that was the birth of this book that we live in a fatherless nation um which is what i'm on fire about that that's what uh i related largely to when i started reading your book is that fatherlessness so yeah so you did have a dad but it sounds like uh between his work and he wasn't his drinking and he wasn't he wasn't there for me um not not to say he's a bad person he wasn't there for me emotionally, didn't have any tools, also physically always working.

[445] So I tell people I was raised by pop culture.

[446] I wasn't raised by, there was no dad, there was no positive male role model in my life.

[447] Now, how do you end up in college?

[448] You're saying you're an average student, it sounded like?

[449] So I guess I should start by saying my SAT scores were so low.

[450] The vice principal called me down and asked me if everything was okay at home.

[451] Oh, really?

[452] And it was a little offensive because I was like if I was an Asian.

[453] Yeah, you would have blown right through.

[454] Yeah.

[455] I'm not an academic guy, and now at 45, I'm okay with it.

[456] But, of course, back then, there was a lot of shame and guilt.

[457] So I'm all right brain.

[458] So I was a kid in the classroom that would stare outside the entire time.

[459] Playback movies.

[460] Oh, my God, Monica, playback movies.

[461] Yeah, he used to do that.

[462] She used to watch Goodwill Hunting over and over again in her head all day long at school.

[463] Yes, so me, it was the 80s movies.

[464] You know, it was Ferris Bueller, Weird Science, as we talked about.

[465] Breakfast Club, one of my favorite movies.

[466] Did your parents care that you weren't good at?

[467] school they were kind to me uh but they would always you know typically the whole asian study we want you to be a doctor lawyer you know make throw books at me we didn't come to america for you to spit on your head yeah you know a lot of yelling for that yeah then i got into skateboarding uh -huh and they're like what you know like when are you going to grow up yeah my brother's the opposite did very well in school he's very left brain okay so older or younger older he's two years older and um and was he protective of you in school no he's embarrassed of me yeah yeah the whole thing it causes i think the most heartbreaking stuff when i hear your story monica stories a lot of other friends of mine stories is the saddest part of it all is it weirdly can make you turn on your own family because they're just another reminder that you're different yes that to me breaks my heart and so i had to find my something um because parents went around brother was embarrassed of me and when you're only two years apart at that age your little brother's just like an idiot you don't want to he's just annoying the shit out of you yeah exactly i remember trying to follow him around on my bike and he would just ditch me and i would be fucking terrified oh you guys are both just fighting your own battle to be accepted it's really it's terrible yeah um now was there an age where all of a sudden in 10th grade you've chosen a completely different route than he has he's sounding more academic and you're probably starting to reap the rewards of creativity being getting girlfriends maybe being cooler more accepted did that ever occur to him like oh shit he that just started happening like two years ago oh okay it took 40 years uh -huh um you know i i got into skating and of course whatever i get into i get into i submerge myself got into skating and then uh just never did anything that didn't move me So I was into, in the 80s, models were big.

[468] Not models as in like women, but like building models.

[469] Yes, hobbies.

[470] Mattel models or whatever.

[471] Exactly.

[472] So this is a great metaphor of kind of who I am.

[473] I got the, my dad bought me the Dukes of Hazard car, which that time was like the model.

[474] The General Lee.

[475] Yes.

[476] Nice Confederate flag right on the roof to tell you where.

[477] Exactly.

[478] And they had no idea.

[479] And so I remember like this is the one I'm going to really do everything, the decals, like actually paint it and shit.

[480] And so I built the whole thing until the end when I couldn't figure out how to put the axle together.

[481] And so I took the wheels and just glued them to the wheel wheel wheel.

[482] Okay.

[483] So now like that that was on, it was on switches, you know?

[484] Right.

[485] It was low rider.

[486] Right.

[487] And it's like became the metaphor for, oh, that's John Kim.

[488] He's going to go 80%.

[489] Or he could almost do something.

[490] Uh -huh.

[491] And then it kind of gave me this false belief that I was the almost guy.

[492] And so the theme of my life has been like, oh, you're good at it.

[493] Not finish them.

[494] Yes.

[495] Or you're a half -ass.

[496] But it wasn't until about two years ago that I realized it's actually a gift, not a curse.

[497] How so?

[498] Everything that I've done in my life.

[499] Like, for example, I started a life coaching company called a Catalyst intensive.

[500] Sold tickets to it before I had no idea what I was going to teach.

[501] But that passion came from going through the clinical system, which I think is broken to be a therapist.

[502] and realizing that you enter the system on fire to help people by the time you're done, you're like, I don't even know if I want to do this anymore.

[503] Well, there's a lot of burnout in that field, right?

[504] So much burnout, underpaid.

[505] Also, it's just hard to join people in trauma and misery all day long.

[506] Yeah, but also alone.

[507] Yeah.

[508] I mean, if you're in private practice, you're sitting by yourself being very neutral, not showing yourself.

[509] Like, this is great because we show ourselves.

[510] there's a human exchange here Yes But if you're a therapist You're doing that hour and out You actually create your own prison Mm -hmm So what school did you go to?

[511] With high school in Glendale And I just felt like I couldn't get into those schools So I wanted to go somewhere It was either a community college Or a Cal State school Got into Northridge Was studying during the Northridge quakes Went there for film Okay Became a screenwriter Okay Had a restaurant bar club Because by this time My parents have turned their little photo mat into saving up more money and they actually bought a pioneer chicken Oh, okay.

[512] That was the big deal for our family and then that turned into a Popeye's we sold that and they kept saving and saving and saving and then we had just enough money to actually buy like a little Italian restaurant called the Hollywood canteen next to the studios that it was started by Richard Branson as kind of a clubhouse for I guess his celebrity friends and stuff and then like his chef bought it and kind of went down and down and like this little Korean family bought it and the lunches were great because of the studios all post production but the evenings were dead and I was doing this thing I had this project called Model on the bottle which is a whole different story and I met this club promoter and he saw it and he was like I could make this into something really cool and my family's like you know let's just try it it was like a big deal so we I was like all right let's do it I didn't know him at all and in come the shark tanks and the white couches and just crazy turning things upside down my parents were terrified I was like you got to trust me mom and this is again very john kim right just building the bus while he's driving it and for about six months in 2001 it actually blew up uh -huh and it was like 400 people outside all the celebrities and oh wow but no one knew it was owned by its little Korean family um I had no idea what I was doing so everyone was stealing from me yeah yeah how would you know how yeah I did I was in my 20s and um HBO found out about it, and I was just writing screenplays and stuff, and they, when they found out it was owned by this little Korean family, they thought it was interesting.

[513] So then they got my life rights and turned it into a project, and then they hired me to write it.

[514] And then I thought this is going to be my big break.

[515] For sure.

[516] Of course, it never is.

[517] Justin Lynn, who was doing Fast and Furious?

[518] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[519] I think he wanted to do, I never met him, but what I heard was he wanted to do something.

[520] He was coming from commercial movies.

[521] He wanted to do something that's kind of meaningful.

[522] And he could relate to that story.

[523] But then he ended up pulling out.

[524] And so when that happened, and my marriage was falling apart, I was like, to feast or famine, I can't do this.

[525] It's not making me happy.

[526] I would spend 15 hours a day, death of a salesman, punching keys at a Starbucks, trying to create, you know, the act break and the dialogue.

[527] Yeah.

[528] It's hard, you know.

[529] And so that's when I became a therapist.

[530] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[531] What's up, guys?

[532] This your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[533] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

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[535] And I don't mean just friends.

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[538] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

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[548] talking to my own therapist, and he's like, what do you want to do if you can't do that?

[549] And I said, if I can't move people by the masses, and be creative, I want to do what you're doing.

[550] And he's like, we'll do it.

[551] And I thought you needed a Ph .D. Right.

[552] So I was like, I'm not a school guy.

[553] It terrifies me. There's no way I can do it.

[554] He's like, you just need a master's.

[555] You already have your little Cal State Northridge thing degree.

[556] You have your BA.

[557] You have your BA with the spaghetti stains.

[558] And it's two years of school.

[559] And so next thing you know, I'm getting my master's, going through a divorce, and I didn't know about the sixth.

[560] What age did you get married?

[561] 29.

[562] 29.

[563] Yeah.

[564] It lasted about five years.

[565] Five years.

[566] That was actually the most important and the greatest thing that's happened to me because that's the great divide.

[567] That's when my life edge of sketch was shaken.

[568] And it forced me because, so I left with basically a pillow, a temperapeutic pillow, so you got the bed.

[569] and just my SUV.

[570] So I went on Craigslist and found a roommate and started all over at 35 -ish.

[571] And was it amicable, mutual, or did she want to out?

[572] Oh, it was more on her side.

[573] Okay.

[574] But it was, there was no, it wasn't crazy.

[575] It was just calm and sad.

[576] Right.

[577] And on a spiritual level, it felt like this was meant to be.

[578] I had peace with it.

[579] If you rewind to my wedding day, and this might be a little too much information, I had this weird spiritual experience where the person that was marrying us, she didn't say it, but I saw it in her eyes.

[580] And she was known to predict the future.

[581] What are the?

[582] Clairvoyant.

[583] Yeah, she was known to be that in this small town.

[584] And she told me, she didn't say in words, but basically told me your marriage isn't going to last, but you're going to go off to help.

[585] a lot of people and at that time i wanted i was a screenwriter so i thought oh maybe i'm going to be like this successful can i ask did this person that you married without saying her name or his name um did they did they fulfill some kind of image you were trying to create for yourself do you think you were attracted to that person for all the right reasons or do you think that she was helping you confirm a narrative you were trying to write about yourself I think in looking back, well, the marriage took a black light to my defects, holes, wounds, you know, all of that.

[586] And even though we paint a fun picture of a 10 -year -old breakdancing and fucking plums and looking at porn and all that, there's a lot of pain behind that.

[587] Listen, I don't think your experience or the experience of other people who are first generation from another country where you obviously look like you're from another country.

[588] country, I don't think that experience is so dissimilar from being gay, from just knowing that you are not what the main group is.

[589] And I think there's so much pain and trauma that comes out of that.

[590] And I think there's so many desperate attempts to prove otherwise or to fit in.

[591] I think it's incredibly hard.

[592] The themes are common.

[593] So isolation, wanting love, self -loathing, self -loathing.

[594] you know parents not not saying i love you you're good as you are you know yeah you could go out and do good thing like that kind of stuff never got yeah you're also kind of inheriting you're inheriting someone else's game plan which is we're going to go through hell and high water to get to this country to give you right a lot of that this opportunity that we think you should exploit to its fullest right so it's just very complicated so you also end up um and a lot of my clients struggle with this uh you end up tracing a blueprint that's not yours for sure right yeah and that disconnects with your purpose and who you are and where you're meant to go so um but in this marriage did this woman represent to you oh if i have this person if this person commits themselves to me i'll have proven a couple of these fears of mine aren't true or will it will heal those she was she blonde and white she was my heather thomas on the wall okay right stunning uh -huh um i felt like I was known as her husband instead of John Kim.

[595] I didn't have a sense of identity.

[596] Right.

[597] And so once that's shattered, now I have no more.

[598] Mooring.

[599] My veneer shattered.

[600] Mm -hmm.

[601] Right?

[602] Yeah.

[603] And so now I have to show myself.

[604] And this was the birth of.

[605] So I always tell people that I cut myself in half.

[606] There's the old John Kim and the new.

[607] And this was the, the saw.

[608] The saw.

[609] This was a saw that chopped me half.

[610] So becoming a therapist.

[611] to get my hours, I worked in nonprofit.

[612] Okay.

[613] And I did not want to work a nonprofit.

[614] My dream was to have a private practice with the shiny balls and to have my coffee and show up in my little three series, BMW, and then the, you know, the...

[615] And counsel Tony Soprano.

[616] Exactly, right, right.

[617] Like how the media portrays the therapist, right?

[618] Now to me that would be a nightmare.

[619] But that was my dream.

[620] But the universe threw me into nonprofit.

[621] And in nonprofit, I started working with teenagers, which I did not want to work with.

[622] I wanted to work with adults.

[623] And I worked with hundreds and hundreds of addicted teenagers.

[624] Where at?

[625] At a treatment center?

[626] Yeah, right down street, nonprofit treatment center.

[627] It was called ADAP.

[628] Okay.

[629] And all low income, mostly Hispanic, Asian, people couldn't afford treatment.

[630] And in doing so, I realized a single common thread between all the kids.

[631] no one had a dad Mm -hmm So if they had a dad He wasn't emotionally available Mm -hmm If they or he was physically gone Mm -hmm And so the family support groups Only moms would show up And if there was a dad He was either sleeping in the back Or popping donuts and stuff Yeah And this is where the seed was planted Because girls were standing too close And the boys either wanted to be me Or fight me Right and when you say the girls Are standing too close Your assumption was that they didn't have a dad who taught them about boundaries.

[632] Boundaries.

[633] And I represented the healthy older guy.

[634] Mm -hmm.

[635] So if they're used to the, you know, the older guy with the Tran -Zam, the college kid at the letcherous guy.

[636] Yeah.

[637] Now they find, now they are, for the first time in their lives, someone that can meet them where they are, they connected me to that level, but then I represented wellness or dad or someone that was healthy.

[638] Right.

[639] Yeah.

[640] A North Star.

[641] Yeah.

[642] then the boys conversely right yeah they would do what they would you'd want to fight me because now I'm a threat yeah well you're someone telling them what to do and I don't know how to fight at all okay um and that's a that's a brave admission I got to be honest real quick I don't know um when I was like nine I saw two men fighting and I was hiding behind bushes and they were like in their 30s they're like going at it right a real fight real fucking fight first time I ever saw it's my life and it was so traumatic that I was like I can't I'm not gonna fight it yeah yeah I'll tell you how I feel let's talk about this yeah when you're that young and you see that it looks life threatening right well most kids when they grow up they are forced to fight because of both they're just like you're gonna get your ass kick you have to it's like fight or flight yeah or like a right of passage initiation yes I slid through the back the side door man that's great by dancing and skating and all that but these kids in treatment how do you check yourself to to make sure you're not projecting onto them your issue yes um so looking in is that even possible i don't i mean i don't know you know i see a therapist and i'll be honest not not all the time like as needed right um i think it's important that therapists also see therapist yeah right yeah well all people could benefit from checking in with somebody oh and being accountable to somebody yes you know whether that's through a group through a church, through for me, AA, or for you, a therapist, it's pretty good to be accountable in general.

[643] Yeah, I don't know how people thrive without that.

[644] Yeah.

[645] Because we only see the world through our own eyes and through our own.

[646] I do buy into this fantasy that some people just came out of the gates, biochemically set up to feel great.

[647] And they maybe don't require that.

[648] That's certainly not my experience.

[649] Yeah, I don't know anyone with that.

[650] Yeah.

[651] It feels pandemic.

[652] it feels like we all really struggle right to keep ourselves right mentally and seemingly optimistic or I think especially now because it's become a bumper sticker and it's become commercialized wellness which I think is a great thing people like the stigma with therapy is a lot less today yeah for sure or people have coaches and AA and stuff it's actually a conversation which is good before it was very well look at the premise of Sopranos was that Tony was secretly seeing a therapist because if a mob boss was seeing a therapist, mentally he was weak.

[653] Week, right.

[654] And there was no way he could lead the soldiers.

[655] Which, you know, goes back to this whole definitions of men.

[656] And I think right now it's the soil is the richest to start having conversations about what a man looks like.

[657] And it's not about me putting any of my definitions on a man. It's just about encouraging other men to look inward.

[658] That's it.

[659] And to come up with their own definitions.

[660] Right.

[661] So your book that's coming out, or it's already come out?

[662] It's out.

[663] By the time this comes out, it's out.

[664] Okay.

[665] I used to be a miserable fuck in every man's guide to a meaningful life.

[666] Can I just say I had a lot of resistance when they wanted to make that the title?

[667] And they said it's in the first paragraph of your book.

[668] Let's use this.

[669] And I said, no, I don't want to jump on the fuck train.

[670] You know, like I don't want to use the word fuck.

[671] And I know it's.

[672] Yeah.

[673] And then I sat with it and I was like, why, like go deeper with it?

[674] Why do you not want, is it really because of the word fuck?

[675] And they were saying, but it's used in a different way and I think it'll, and I was like, actually the truth is, I don't want this to be the title of my book because I'm embarrassed to say that I was unhappy.

[676] I'm, especially as a therapist, to say that I was miserable.

[677] Sure.

[678] And when I realized that that's what my truth was, then now I told myself, it has to be the title because you have to be the first domino.

[679] Right.

[680] You know what I'm saying?

[681] Well, yeah, I think vulnerability begets vulnerability and admission of failings helps other people admit their own failures.

[682] Right.

[683] And especially if you're kind of quote unquote the expert.

[684] Yeah.

[685] Saying that, you know, you were once miserable.

[686] Yes.

[687] Well, I have a, yeah, almost anyone that comes on here that has made a name for themselves through seemingly having some of the answers.

[688] don't they run a huge risk of no longer being able to admit their own failings because they're supposed to be someone with the answers just with a dangerous yes uh precarious position to be in as someone who's supposed to have the answers i think so how the angry therapist all started was when i was going through my divorce i had nothing i didn't have any friends i i i like i legitimately had nothing uh no friends uh no money and you're what 30 33 okay 35ish yeah and and and and You're supposed to have shit figured out at 35.

[689] I had nothing figured out.

[690] Right.

[691] The tree was shaken.

[692] Yes.

[693] I fell out of that thing.

[694] And I was like, what am I going to do?

[695] I was depressed.

[696] I was like, what are we going to do with my time?

[697] So I was, and Tumblr was kind of big at the time.

[698] And I said, I'm going to create a blog.

[699] And I'm going to call it.

[700] And I had no idea anyone would read it.

[701] So I said, I'm going to call it the angry therapist.

[702] Mm -hmm.

[703] And I thought it was kind of funny that a therapist is angry, but also I was very angry.

[704] Yes.

[705] Just being Korean and all this shit that's happened to me. I was just very angry and unhappy.

[706] And my very first post was called My Fucking Feelings.

[707] And it was like four sentences long.

[708] It was basically I'm sad.

[709] And so what I did was I didn't know at the time, I pulled the curtain back.

[710] And I said, I'm a therapist.

[711] I'm broken.

[712] I'm hurting.

[713] How can I help you?

[714] And I think that's what people thought was maybe interesting, is this Korean guy with tattoos and got his first motorcycle going through this rebirth, being vulnerable or transparent.

[715] If I had come at you and sit out and set up with you and said, hey, listen, I'm the expert.

[716] Let me tell you how to live your life.

[717] Yeah.

[718] People would be like, fuck you.

[719] Yeah.

[720] You know.

[721] And so that was kind of become my whole thing is show yourself.

[722] Yeah.

[723] So, okay, now from the outside knowing very little about you, when I imagine the full transformation of someone who probably wrestled with otherness, and then is striving to shed themselves of that feeling um it appears from your choices that you went the other way which is crossfit tattoos motorcycles to me feels like further it feels like break dancing 2 .0 that's what it was and i believe that self -betterment sometimes is about a reunion than anything else i believe that as life happens we take parts of ourselves and we've smashed them into a hope chest and locked them.

[724] So what CrossFit did when I found CrossFit was it wasn't like I was all into like athlete fitness or wanted abs.

[725] The feeling I got from the butterfly pull -ups to handsend push -ups and the muscle ups connected me to the nine -year -old doing windmills and headspins that I had to put away.

[726] The reason I bought a motorcycle wasn't to be cool.

[727] I had a Honda spree.

[728] Oh, me too.

[729] At age 10 or 11 because my parents wouldn't buy me a dirt bike.

[730] All the cool kids had dirt bikes, and my parents said, it's so funny because they're thinking, okay, with pads and a helmet on dirt, that's very dangerous.

[731] Right, right.

[732] But we're going to give you a 50cc plastic, right?

[733] Drive in the city with the most traffic.

[734] And at the 80s, there's no helmet laws.

[735] It was basically sandals.

[736] And I remember flying on that thing.

[737] Yeah, 32 miles now.

[738] I wrote the shit out of that thing by myself for hours, and it was probably the most freedom I've ever felt.

[739] Did you get an erection the first time you wrote it?

[740] And that's a sincere question.

[741] Because I got a raging boner as I was telling Monica about it.

[742] The first time I wrote my spree.

[743] That's amazing.

[744] So with you, it seems like dopamine is connected to your boner.

[745] My boner?

[746] Maybe.

[747] That's amazing.

[748] That's going to help you.

[749] Yeah, I hope so.

[750] Yeah.

[751] Okay.

[752] So, yeah, in general, if I have a boner, I am in a pretty good mood.

[753] I can't remember ever being in a terrible mood with a boner.

[754] These days at 45s, I only get heart boners.

[755] You want to get heart boners where you love someone?

[756] It takes more than the win to get it up for me. Right, sure.

[757] That's natural.

[758] It's coming for you to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[759] I'm sure it's around the corner.

[760] You start this blog and then you become known kind of as the angry therapist.

[761] The anti -therapist, the angry therapist, with you instead of at you.

[762] And now as people, more and more people seem to enjoy what you're putting out into the world.

[763] And maybe they're asking you for advice, I guess.

[764] Yes.

[765] So it started off.

[766] advice and then this is when it changed everything someone gave me $20 and this is when like internet money was new like no one pays people online I think it was PayPal first came out because I really took an email and I went four pages deep and answered I really poured my heart into it I had no lie I had nothing else so I just decided to give to give now today looking back there's so much empowerment in giving because it's no longer about you and we can talk about the through me life and the two me life and the stages but I got 20 bucks and I remember crying I remember I swear to go I remember getting the 20 bucks and thinking someone just paid me it wasn't about 20 bucks someone paid me someone valued you valued me yeah for my my words yeah it could have been one dollar it could have been thousand it could have right um and then the other epiphany I had was oh I can make money off this and you need to feed yourself and I need to feed myself student loans like all of that stuff nonprofit doesn't pay at all you know right and so then the the pilot light became a flame uh -huh and it was like okay um what's my message who do i want to help how can i do it in a way where um i'm not on a podium or stage but like let's go do this together well and then and i'll just be very honest with you i have a knee -jerk response to anything related to life coaching to me it's very very dicey yes and i'm i'm triggered by it for whatever reason because i don't like religion or i don't like hierarchies i don't like yeah there's something about it uh and i'm sure you could argue that i'm doing the same thing you're doing on here i'm ultimately have a point of view i'm sharing with people i guess the distinction i make is that i i almost would i feel like i would never tell someone what to do as much as if i thought i had a similar story story that i went through, I would just share with you what I went through and then what I did.

[767] And then if you think that's a good idea, then maybe you try that.

[768] I don't know.

[769] I know exactly what you're talking about and most people feel the same way.

[770] Well, by the way, it's double -sided.

[771] So I'm first suspicious of the person who would advise another person how to live their life.

[772] And then I'm suspicious of the person that would seek that out as opposed to what I would consider doing the boot camp version of self -up.

[773] Like you're going to, you feel so entitled that you should have one human being dedicated to your life as opposed to you joining another group where you could get that council.

[774] So it's double -sided and it's unfair on both sides.

[775] So tell me why I'm wrong.

[776] No, you're not wrong.

[777] That's truth.

[778] The reason why I started my own life coaching program is we don't encourage that.

[779] It's about asking questions, not about telling people how to live their lives because you don't know.

[780] I want to try to change the temperature.

[781] That's what excites me. So I can't surf because I'm afraid of water.

[782] So I remember there's something called skinboarding.

[783] Oh, uh -huh.

[784] Remember where you throw the board on the sand?

[785] And if you're a surfer, that's a fucking joke.

[786] Right.

[787] What are you doing?

[788] Get out of my way.

[789] I'm going to beat you up.

[790] Yeah.

[791] And I think therapy is surfing and life coaching has become skinboarding.

[792] Like everyone's buying these things to go jump in the water, but they're just, you know.

[793] And it's changing.

[794] And that's because with life coaching, there's no board.

[795] And so anyone can call themselves a life coach.

[796] You can say today, my name is Dax Shepard.

[797] I'm a life coach.

[798] Mm -hmm.

[799] Right?

[800] I'm Rob's life coach.

[801] self -appointed.

[802] I'm sure, well, just even through this podcast, I think you've coached many without even knowing it, you know?

[803] I've learned to wipe my ass differently because of you.

[804] Oh, thank goodness.

[805] That's the movement I'm trying to lead in this country.

[806] So, yeah, so therapy is more like from suffering the baseline.

[807] Life coaching is from like baseline to thriving, but because there's no board with life coaching and the internet and the commercialization of wellness, that's why life coaching is getting a bad rap.

[808] And there's a lot of people doing it that shouldn't be doing it and that are pointing fingers and saying how you, but, you know, the good's going to float up.

[809] And the people that do that are not going to get clients because who wants to go to those people?

[810] Right.

[811] Yeah, because the clients become the testimonials that it either works or not.

[812] The other thing I would really hope that life coaches are taking into account is, and I only really am aware of this now from having two daughters and they're both fucking opposites.

[813] Like everything that worked with the firstborn is just not working with the second born.

[814] And I'm acutely aware of how many systems we have that are just one -stop shopping.

[815] So school is like, it has a curriculum, a singular curriculum that's supposed to help all the kids.

[816] And it's just not going to happen.

[817] And likewise, I'd imagine what worked for me in getting sober or confronting the things I've confronted likely won't work for a huge majority of people just because I have a very specific personality type.

[818] I hate authority.

[819] I hate rules, you have to trick me, all these things.

[820] So I would just pray that these life coaches aren't just advising that what worked for them.

[821] Right.

[822] It's got to be challenging.

[823] It's not a one -fits -all.

[824] Okay.

[825] You know, I think the skills of life coaching or a therapist is the questions you ask, using that as a rudder.

[826] With life coaching, there's some room for advice.

[827] You can say, I did this.

[828] It might work for you.

[829] But if you're a life coach and you're like, this is what you need to do.

[830] yeah um that makes me mad and that i'm in favor of because the one thing i'm critical with therapy is you know people spend eight years being led down the ultimate breakthrough whereas what i love about aAA is like meeting number two some some guy will pull you aside and go listen dude you're full of shit i'm the exact same way fuck that your wife's not that way you're just being selfish public like there is a there's a element that i wish was in therapy which was like bullshit time to make some contrary action this is also why i don't like therapy and therapist in the system is because they teach you in school to be neutral, to not show yourself.

[831] And I get that, and I went the other way.

[832] So after therapy school and the angry therapist and people started wanting to do sessions, they wanted to do sessions online because they're all over the world.

[833] The internet, you know, this is like right after dial up.

[834] The board won't let you do that.

[835] And I said to myself, why?

[836] Why can't I help someone that needs help?

[837] I could save someone's life possibly if they're suicidal in China because we have that technology, why would you stop that?

[838] So I had to call myself a life coach to get around that with a clinical background.

[839] And so I said, you know what, if we're going to talk about life, let's do life while we're talking.

[840] So I broke all the rules.

[841] I started sleeping with my clients.

[842] No, I'm kidding.

[843] Step one.

[844] Date all my clients.

[845] I said, let's go on a hike.

[846] Let's take it out of the room.

[847] I brought them into crossfit boxes.

[848] I rolled up jeans, t -shirt to coffee shops.

[849] I never had an office.

[850] So what happened was I went rogue without knowing it.

[851] Right.

[852] I wasn't trying to be rogue.

[853] I just said, how can I help people in a way that's honest to me?

[854] Right.

[855] And so I started doing these weird things like that.

[856] And how many clients did you have at one point, our patients?

[857] Do we call them patients in therapy?

[858] Clients.

[859] Okay.

[860] Yeah.

[861] I had so much where I had to build a team because I couldn't do it by myself.

[862] Oh, wow.

[863] Okay.

[864] So that happened.

[865] How many years ago was that?

[866] that about three or four years after the tumbler and started getting some traction then everyone wanted sessions um and then you know i wanted to thread my life uh in i wanted to thread that into my life with my own self -betterment journey i didn't want to lose my life right so i started to this is when i found crossfit and then uh learned uh the power of fitness yeah i was a guy in the gym that we just do the curls.

[867] I never knew what a squirrels for the girls.

[868] Exactly.

[869] In the mirror by myself.

[870] Us weekly on the treadmill kind of thing.

[871] The CrossFit may be realized functional fitness and all of that stuff, connection to my body.

[872] Let's just say for the audience because a lot of people know about Charlie Curtis, the perfect 10, my calendar.

[873] You actually used to lift with Charlie.

[874] Yes.

[875] We started together.

[876] And would you just awe at him like I do of what a specimen he is?

[877] Yes.

[878] So when I started CrossFit, I was there before him.

[879] Okay.

[880] And I thought I was actually good at it because I had the breakdancing background.

[881] So the body weight movements I was good at.

[882] Right.

[883] And then so when the big guys came, they were strong.

[884] I was like, well, I could get you on the butterfly pull -ups or the weather.

[885] Sure, push -ups, pull -ups, all those things are.

[886] Enter Charlie Curtis.

[887] Uh -oh.

[888] He's not only strong, but he's also fast.

[889] Yeah.

[890] And he's got the whole football thing.

[891] And he's got the mental edge.

[892] And he's quiet.

[893] Yeah.

[894] What a force.

[895] Which is scary.

[896] And gorgeous.

[897] I mean, he's perfect hand.

[898] You don't earn that title around here lightly.

[899] Wow.

[900] Yeah, he's a good dude, definitely.

[901] So through CrossFit, you started getting...

[902] I started rebuilding myself, and I basically shattered every definition.

[903] What's your definition of a man?

[904] What's your definition of an athlete?

[905] What's your definition of a husband, a father, a love, all that shit?

[906] I threw it all out the window.

[907] So, and that's something you recommend is maybe challenging your definitions?

[908] Yes.

[909] If not, our definitions are not just formed by us.

[910] They're formed by society, advertising, social media, wives, girlfriends, parents.

[911] Like, you know, I'm talking about it's a collection of a lot.

[912] And I'm a very simple, I just like very simple break it down to the nuts and bolts.

[913] And you're either living an honest life or dishonest life.

[914] That's for you is to me. The crux of all this.

[915] Right.

[916] And so starting with being honest with yourself.

[917] but the thing about honesty is it changes.

[918] So, like, your definition of, say, a husband today may be very different than it was even two years ago.

[919] Sure.

[920] Right?

[921] Well, and I say this often, again, through my own experience, honesty with oneself is a lot harder than you would think.

[922] So your ability to have that revelation means that you've done work.

[923] Well, right.

[924] Most people don't have that ability.

[925] Right.

[926] Again, and it only is an outgrowth of.

[927] having to think about my alcoholism because I think a lot of alcoholics feel they trust that they just have this desire to get a buzz on that's fun right they would never imagine that the brain has actually given them that desire so that they don't have to feel the discomfort they're feeling just take it as a simple urge to do something so first of all it takes courage to actually start to follow that thread because it's going to come from pain or a wound or something and then to fucking I own it.

[928] Mm -hmm.

[929] And then in that shift, I want to be different.

[930] Why?

[931] Because it's my definition of man, father, husband, whatever.

[932] Mm -hmm.

[933] And that's a hero's journey itself.

[934] But you're also the minority because guys don't do that.

[935] It's actually one of the, my favorite things in that book, it's do respond, don't react.

[936] Do respond, don't react.

[937] Most people are walking reactions.

[938] Mm -hmm.

[939] Right?

[940] And our reactions stem from our story, our wiring, what we were told.

[941] our beliefs.

[942] So to be aware means to throw in that speed bump and to actually respond, which takes that ability, which takes a breath, which takes some insight, which takes knowing yourself.

[943] If, think about this, if every man, so I've coached a lot of women with relationships and dating.

[944] For some reason, men don't follow me, mostly women do in the 30s -ish.

[945] And so it's all about love and dating.

[946] And I mean, I want more men.

[947] to follow me. Hopefully they will.

[948] Yeah.

[949] Do you have a theory on that before we move on?

[950] Yes, 100%.

[951] What's your theory?

[952] It's because I represent hope.

[953] The thing that I write about, like this kind of stuff, it's also the dialogue that you create.

[954] So people are seeing me as a flag, not as a person.

[955] Okay.

[956] So, oh, here's a guy who rides motorcycles and Crossfits and cusses and whatever and has tattoos and stuff.

[957] but he's also talking about looking inward.

[958] I want my guy to be like that or I want to be with a guy like that.

[959] Not necessarily me, but I want to root for that because now it's not me. It's a message.

[960] It's what the world needs, you know?

[961] And so because most people have been in dysfunctional or toxic or whatever relationships, especially people that end up, you know, on the chair in front of me, they're very thirsty for that safe space, that ability.

[962] Well, I watched one of your videos before you came, and it was basically advising how someone should handle a breakup.

[963] And walk me through that, because right out of the gates, you choose to see a breakup as an expiration of the relationship.

[964] And that's a choice.

[965] Because there were a bunch of elements I agreed with, and then there were some that I thought maybe I wasn't sure if I agreed.

[966] But, yeah, so walk me through what you think should happen.

[967] I realize that a lot of people, breakups can be devastating, you know, divorce.

[968] divorces, et cetera.

[969] And for me, the first thing that helps is to believe its choice and may be hard to know that it's an expiration.

[970] I know it sounds very cheap, like milk, it's expired.

[971] But when you believe that something if it has expired and wasn't meant to go a day more or day less, you have a piece with that, right?

[972] Like that's closure in and of itself?

[973] I believe so.

[974] It's the beginning of that, right?

[975] And then it's like, okay, now how am I going to reexempt when you have to have, have, when you're ready to reexamine the black box and take ownership of what you what your contribution was to the expiration stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare well that's my favorite part of your message is the taking ownership because no one does that no one does that it's very easy to get distracted by all the failings of your partner uh it's a lot easier you don't have to dig as deep and you don't have to challenge as many of your own identity issues and stuff should recognize right of the gates that they're the common denominator in all their breakups yes right so it's hard to do it's really hard to do everyone generally likes to think that that was the they picked wrong well because it forces you to look at yourself and it means that you're not perfect and now you stuck with oh shit i got things i got to work on yeah i almost think the easiest thing to first admit to yourself is well you pick the people let's say they were all terrible let's say you're actually right and everyone you were with was a piece of shit and you were flawless and that's why it didn't work out well you pick the person and what what are you going to do to prevent that you'll pick another person identical to the last eight you per you know you did pick right and so there's like some exploration to be done there but there's also when we pick people we're probably not aware of this there's a subconscious dynamic that we're attracted to maybe because it smells familiar maybe this is also the addict allenon thing there's a lot of stuff happening underneath, that's about more than just, you know, oh, he's charming or she has a pretty face.

[976] Like, you know what I'm saying?

[977] There's a lot of underneath.

[978] And you can't get to that until we start this process of looking inward and figuring out where it comes from.

[979] Then you could start making different choices.

[980] Because if you're not aware of that, you may be chasing things that are not healthy.

[981] Like, I don't necessarily think the lightning in the bottle, I think that's actually kind of a red flag.

[982] I think it's a big red flag.

[983] I think the slow burn, you know, the people of the layers.

[984] I think love it for his sight is a big red flag.

[985] Yeah, and that's romanticized.

[986] And everyone's like, oh, my God, like, this is the one.

[987] Yes.

[988] I've known him for two minutes.

[989] It's like, or do you feel something in this dynamic that is coming from childhood?

[990] Well, because respecting someone's integrity doesn't light your fire.

[991] But that should probably be the cornerstone of why you're with somebody.

[992] So the things that are substantial.

[993] should be the guiding force in a relationship are not sexy.

[994] They're not the sexiest things.

[995] You don't see a woman or start talking to her and think, fuck, she'd be such a great mom.

[996] I'm so horny.

[997] But really, that should be priority number one.

[998] Would this be someone I would want to guide a little person through life with?

[999] I think there's a tipping point, especially for men, when we're in our 20s, because we think with the wrong head, we just go by what shoots to the most dopamine in our brain.

[1000] right as we get older as we go through many expired relationships we start to move our chips into what beauty looks like and what you know now we know that relationships are built one of the things i love about you and your wife um is that the way that you guys present yourself is so important because from what i've seen it's basically this is us we're not perfect these are some of our struggles, right?

[1001] And what that does is it tells people that the picket fence has splinters.

[1002] And if you believe that, you know that there's work involved.

[1003] You know that to build a marriage, there's ups and downs, and you're going to have to roll your sleeves up and all this kind of stuff.

[1004] And I think the people coming up, if they think marriage is just, or any relationship, is just based on the chemistry, you're building on sand.

[1005] Yeah.

[1006] Also, what's inherently paradoxical is if you want someone, if you want to be partners with someone that you have a deep respect for and you admire their, who they are, and then yet you also think that person's going to bend your will is paradoxical.

[1007] If you really are going to respect somebody, you have to probably recognize, oh, shit, this person's got good self -esteem.

[1008] They know they're anchored in something and everything's going to be a compromise.

[1009] This person is worthy.

[1010] of me growing towards and hopefully you're someone that's worthy of being grown towards as well if you're looking for it to be easy odds are you didn't pick someone that you ultimately are going to respect in my opinion yes you know um you got to love like you're feeding pigeons palm up and then let them come to you when they want and whatnot if you try to go after a pigeon try to feed them there you know and i think a lot of people go at love this is what looks like this is who you need to be.

[1011] Well, and I also think just go back to the lightning striking love at first sight.

[1012] I think there's like a few different reasons I can cause that.

[1013] One, which I totally agree with you, which is just familiarity.

[1014] You're mistaking familiarity.

[1015] What you're really responding to is that person probably is your dad or your mom or your sibling.

[1016] Or what you've lacked or what, right.

[1017] Yeah.

[1018] It's just, and then and then second is your ego igniting going, wow, this person is high status in some way.

[1019] The trophy.

[1020] And they like me. right and this is going to elevate my status yes that's what and that's a euphoric feeling the notion that you're going to be upwardly mobile through someone else that's what my marriage was there you go you know she's on a she's on a pedestal and she'll bring you up there with her yes now I'm worth more right so the divorce made me actually say okay now you're left with yourself yeah what are you worth and at the time I was like nothing yeah okay well then fucking built something Right.

[1021] Okay.

[1022] You know.

[1023] Yeah.

[1024] Yeah.

[1025] And then you attract different people.

[1026] When you have self -esteem, you attract people with higher self -esteem, wouldn't you say?

[1027] Yes, I have a whole theory on attract versus chase.

[1028] Most of my life, I was chasing shiny things.

[1029] My definition of happy was, and this is because I was raised in L .A. and everyone has their own definition.

[1030] It was the Porsche Rangerover combo and the horseshoe -shaped driveway and the house in the hills, the beautiful wife, and the three -picture deal, that kind of thing, right?

[1031] of an L .A. and pursuing screenwriting, that's a very chasing mindset, and I would exchange my truth from membership.

[1032] I would seek, so whenever you're seeking validation approval, you're powerless, right?

[1033] Whenever you are attracting, you are power filled.

[1034] Bowen talks a lot about the solid self and pseudo self, right?

[1035] And the, is it a caprice?

[1036] The station wagon with the wood paneling and the 500 horses and the fucking gold rims.

[1037] like that's uniquely you right that is your solid self now if you're if you decided to buy say a Porsche or Ferrari or whatever because you thought that other people you know that would get looks then that's very pseudo self yeah so and I always use the movie fight club as an example of this we all have a pseudo and solid side and our potential is always going to be when we're pulling from our solid self now we're not solid at 110 % of time that's impossible but you're very probably solid with your kids, with your wife, et cetera.

[1038] If you're in front of someone you don't know or someone who intimidates you or someone, you're going to start fielding your pseudo tug.

[1039] And this is when you start to exchange your truth for membership.

[1040] This is when you go from...

[1041] I like that.

[1042] Exchange your truth for membership.

[1043] Yes.

[1044] And this is when you start going from attracting to chasing.

[1045] When you are chasing, you're not going where you're supposed to be going.

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] You're going to hit Culver Sachs in dead ends, which is most of my life.

[1048] When you start attracting, I'm in an attracting state overall.

[1049] this is why I believe I'm in this room with you.

[1050] This would have never happened if you were chasing.

[1051] 100%.

[1052] You would not, the universe wouldn't align this way, right?

[1053] And we're creating this dialogue because I decided one day to be honest with myself.

[1054] I really believe in living a through me life instead of a to me life.

[1055] So there's these four stages.

[1056] There's to me, buy me, four me, and through me. And by me is the most powerless stage.

[1057] It's basically, he dumped me this didn't happen to me you know I didn't get this whatever you're victim mode right by me is fuck you it's my way or the highway it's all ego which is not sustainable right for me is when you get to a place where you're like you know what dude I deserve this donut I deserve this show I work hard I'm a good husband I deserve this car you know and then through me is the highest that's very little ego and that's when you believe that you are a conduit and there's something working through you that's greater than yourself.

[1058] And so like a prism, like imagine light going through your shoe and what comes out of your head is color.

[1059] And you can't be in a through me state if you are chasing or if you're pseudo.

[1060] So going back to Fight Club, and if you haven't seen the movie, I'm going to give away the ending.

[1061] It's one person, right?

[1062] It's about inner conflict.

[1063] And so Edward Norton starts off very pseudo, lost, going to meetings, buying IKEA furniture, like whatever, right?

[1064] Yeah.

[1065] And then he meets himself, which is brashire.

[1066] at Pitt.

[1067] His id, kind of, yeah.

[1068] His solid self.

[1069] Yeah.

[1070] And yeah, I know they're starting fights and shit.

[1071] But through the exchange and pulling from his solid self, he finds a movement.

[1072] Like he gets passion.

[1073] He creates, you know, whatever he was meant to create, right?

[1074] Yes.

[1075] And so I think that we all have a Tyler Dern.

[1076] Well, on Fight Club, there was a breakthrough moment for me watching Fight Club.

[1077] And I say this as someone who absolutely loves, worships, adores.

[1078] mother you know my mom's my favorite person on planet earth with that said there's a scene where tyler's in the bathtub and he and ed norton are talking and and uh brad pitt's character tyler says uh we were we're a generation of men raised by women maybe the last thing we need is another woman and i just went oh fuck that's the story of my life in a weird way all my friends growing up most of them were also single mothers and we were so drawn to each other and we needed mail approval so much and male contact and mal touch and all these things that I was like hyperdrive invested in friendships in my little male tribe and I don't think I ever it ever occurred to me until then like oh right you didn't have a dad around fatherless nation yeah I seriously maybe know one person who can honestly say they had this amazing father that gave them everything self -esteem worth baseball games um i don't know anyone who actually had a dad around and i can we can say that with sympathy and empathy two dads above us you know what the fuck else were dad supposed to do they thought they had a very clear route which was you go make money you pay for a house and put food on the table and that you're done and that's what your full mission in life is to do so how how could they have possibly given us all the things we needed with the definition they were working they didn't have the capacity and that's okay that's the old and then there's the new we with the soil is very rich for us to now create new definitions yeah that isn't just about um you know bringing the put the the food on table whatever you're talking yeah well i very much have one foot in the old and one with the new.

[1079] There's still a bunch of old ones that I still cling to, even with the knowledge it's preposterous.

[1080] So I still will remind my wife, oh, when you guys are talking about like malness is a problem or toxic masculinity, like when the shit hits the fan one day and I knock three dudes out and get us out of this city and my fucking doom buggy, you're going to be reminded of my value.

[1081] I have that feeling.

[1082] I have this caveman feeling that's like, oh yeah, it's all sweet love and daisies until it's not right and then you're gonna see my value and it's even weird that i have that thought and i can acknowledge that it's weird and also that that's not the society we live in my my role as a alpha who will protect the village is largely not it's it's it's vestigil we don't have we don't live that way anymore so i'm aware of it yet i cling to it in weird ways and then Do you judge yourself or shame yourself for clinging to that?

[1083] Of course, yes.

[1084] I think very...

[1085] Because that's just energy.

[1086] You're not out punching people in the face.

[1087] Well, here's why it's shameful to me is that it is still linked to an identity that I don't wish to have anymore.

[1088] So I know that it's a part of my identity that actually repelled people and didn't attract people.

[1089] And I still have this kind of romantic notion of solving things the old -fashioned way.

[1090] Of course.

[1091] I don't know what I would do if I had a boy.

[1092] So I watch this movie, the mask you live in, and I go, absolutely, where we're destroying boys.

[1093] We're telling them you can't have feelings.

[1094] You can't be empathetic.

[1095] Stop fucking crying.

[1096] We're defining them in opposition to being women.

[1097] Don't be a fucking girl.

[1098] Don't be a sissy.

[1099] Don't be a pussy.

[1100] Don't be a fag.

[1101] All these things that we're doing to boys is horrendous.

[1102] And yet, if I had a boy who was getting bullied at school, I can't tell you that I wouldn't teach him out of punch a kid in the nose.

[1103] It's like I have this conflicting thought of, well, I don't want my kid to be a victim.

[1104] I don't want my kid to be the canary in the coal bind.

[1105] I don't want my kid to be the first generation of men who's totally open, cries in public, and is loving, and then pay at this horrendous price for that because the rest of society hasn't caught up to him.

[1106] Right.

[1107] So I just think it's super dense.

[1108] It is dense.

[1109] And there's layers that's complicated.

[1110] You're also talking about two kind of extremes.

[1111] There's also something in the middle.

[1112] Yes.

[1113] You know what I'm talking about?

[1114] Yeah, absolutely.

[1115] what is the what is the healthy modern masculinity look like well i can't tell um anyone what it looks like i don't want to um i could only talk about my story and what it looks like to me the things i've learned i also think that masculinity isn't a stamp or a light switch i think it's a journey and when we stop that journey we're now dropping the ball so um i've decided at 45 that i'm going to be a student to love and i've been in many relationships i've also been in a marriage I'm starting with I don't know shit because that makes you curious instead of judgmental.

[1116] Now, teach me. And I think that if we took that approach with masculinity and honest about like, you know, all the stuff that's coming up for the fix -it guy, I'm going to put you in the face guy, but also the sweet guy.

[1117] And you take all these things about you that are amazing and not judge them and you see it as energy, right?

[1118] And allow that to manifest in an honest way that is new.

[1119] and I think the coming together is a journey and that is your evolution and you're going to continue to evolve and grow until you die.

[1120] I find this masculinity one to be the most painful one I challenge and try to shake weirdly.

[1121] Well, because you have definitions and I don't know how you were raised, but you probably have solid definitions on what a man looks like.

[1122] Totally.

[1123] Like what's interesting is I did this even back in high school.

[1124] I was kind of big.

[1125] I could fight.

[1126] I was not living in fear, say by high school.

[1127] And at the homecoming rally, you know, the assembly, I dressed as Tinkerbell.

[1128] And I had this huge bag of glitter, a gallon -sized bag of glitter, and I was sprinkling it on the audience.

[1129] And as I went by the football team that was all in one area, they were calling me fag.

[1130] You fucking fag, right?

[1131] And I was loving, like, in a weird way, I was loving that I could.

[1132] could push this gender thing, because I felt confident enough that I wasn't.

[1133] And then I, on my second lap around, I took the whole gallon -sized Ziploc bag of glitter and dumped it on the football players.

[1134] And they came after me and principals ran out and it was like a whole melee.

[1135] Right, right.

[1136] And I was, it's so weird because I was at one time fighting dudes and trying to get that, get that respect.

[1137] Sure.

[1138] And yet at the other time, I'm dressing like a girl and I'm, because I hate it.

[1139] And I think I'm in a position to help, like, because I can see other gay kids.

[1140] And I know they're not in a position like I am to wear a ponytail like I would do or whatever.

[1141] So just, I've been at worst from day one about it.

[1142] Like, I can feel it's wrong.

[1143] And yet I'm participating in it.

[1144] And it's all very weird.

[1145] Well, let me also add, too, while we're just on it because I feel compelled to.

[1146] So for every story where I did that, I put glitter on the football team.

[1147] I also punched some poor guy in McDonald's at 3 in the morning because I was drunk and I thought he was messing with me and my best friend Aaron told me later that dude didn't really do anything.

[1148] Like I've hurt a bunch of people in pursuit of this.

[1149] I've been totally unfair.

[1150] You know, there's a lot of ugliness too that I just want to own.

[1151] You've established your identity as being a protector.

[1152] You did that early.

[1153] And so that comes up all the time.

[1154] That came up when you were Tinkerbell and also when you're punching.

[1155] people at McDonald's.

[1156] It's all for the same reason of being a protector.

[1157] Mm -hmm.

[1158] Mm -hmm.

[1159] You got out.

[1160] You came out of the tunnel.

[1161] You know what I'm saying?

[1162] And it's not over.

[1163] Well, no, I had a bad moment yesterday.

[1164] Sure.

[1165] Yeah.

[1166] Absolutely.

[1167] But you're not putting people in the face in the problem lost, you know?

[1168] The five -year -old smacked the three -year -old really hard, like the hardest I've ever seen her.

[1169] And I just instinctually acted, like in rage.

[1170] I grabbed the five -year -old.

[1171] firmly.

[1172] I said, do not hit my baby.

[1173] And then she ran off sad.

[1174] And then eight minutes later, I'm like, oh, I just did the same thing to her.

[1175] She did a three -year -old.

[1176] She, something triggered her.

[1177] And she acted out that way.

[1178] And then that thing triggered me. And then I acted out.

[1179] And then we all had to sit down.

[1180] I had to go.

[1181] I'm so sorry.

[1182] I did the exact same thing.

[1183] I was mad at you about.

[1184] I'm wrong.

[1185] I suck.

[1186] And just, you know, I just want to say, my story, So far not over.

[1187] I'm still fucking up daily.

[1188] But so, but I want to get back to your book.

[1189] So you've identified what you believe is, is a huge problem, which is a generation raised without men.

[1190] Now, how do we self -heal or how do we claw ourselves out of that or how do we give ourselves what should have been given to us by a dad?

[1191] First, we actually have to shake our own life edge of sketch.

[1192] We also have to decide that we're going to go on a man journey, which means from the known to the unknown, we have to slay our dragons, you know, for you, it might be addiction or whatever, fighting, or whatever, I've got my own dragons, and come back to the village changed so we could share that story that's then no longer about us.

[1193] You know what I'm saying?

[1194] So I think it's that decision to want to do that first, right?

[1195] And that doesn't mean just to read books and go to seminars.

[1196] It's a lifestyle.

[1197] Well, in your own life, you know that.

[1198] It sounds to me in your own life, like you didn't have that.

[1199] And then through CrossFit, you became, you got a validation from other men.

[1200] So you got a masculine validation.

[1201] Sure.

[1202] And CrossFit is just one piece.

[1203] And then through riding motorcycles, that's another kind of.

[1204] Connecting to that part of myself that I locked away.

[1205] But I would say that in your case, it seems like those endeavors that you got some kind of masculine approval.

[1206] in a healthy way.

[1207] And so is it right or wrong to search out if you're a man who didn't get that from dad, some kind of mutual male approval, but just maybe try to aim it in the healthy direction?

[1208] I mean, is it wrong to pursue validation from other men?

[1209] No, of course not.

[1210] Okay.

[1211] We're always going to seek some form of validation and approval because we're human.

[1212] That's never going to stop.

[1213] It's making decisions based on.

[1214] how much you know you seek that so here's the other thing is i think that men can sharpen each other more than anything it's like whether we do it through fitness motorcycles uh conversation whatever it is um we have the power to either sharpen each other or um to destroy you know i think i think more than anything and that's why i think it's so important that uh men like yourself um and other men who are kind of on the forefront and creating a dialogue to start that, you know, to get that going.

[1215] And I think the way to do it isn't to point fingers.

[1216] It's to say, I'm coming with you, not at you.

[1217] And I think if we take it back to high school and you have the 5 % of the cool kids, whether they're athletes or the badasses or whatever they're doing, what if those 5 % instead of posturing decided to be vulnerable and show themselves and say, hey, this is what a real man looks like, they would actually lead an impact the whole 80%.

[1218] Oh, 100%, because the other 80 % is just going to do whatever that hell that.

[1219] 100%.

[1220] Right.

[1221] So it's, I mean, it could happen.

[1222] It could happen because we all have megaphones.

[1223] We all have social media.

[1224] Yeah.

[1225] And there's a lot, there is that 5 % out there.

[1226] If those 5%, and this is why I think it's so important is like the 5 % of the guys out there, if they start to look inward and start this journey and share it and document it and bring up revelations and we could start to relate, you know, the nerds and the guys that are scared start to relate to them, and we see them at street level and now they become brothers instead of bullies, now we have a movement and now we could change 80%.

[1227] Yeah, I just, sometimes I get pessimistic that at that age, adolescence, that's just way too big of an ask.

[1228] Like, they're so, they're so in, they don't, well, yeah, I mean, you know, just a very primitive state almost.

[1229] You don't have the capacity.

[1230] I think the thing we can do on our side is like who in our society do we hold up because ultimately that five percent of guys they're emulating you know Connor McGregor or all these other people that we hold up and give greatest validation esteemed to I think that's maybe the only side of the equation that we as older men can have some sway in as like who are we making the heroes of our society right But it doesn't have to be macro.

[1231] So it could be death by 1 ,000 cuts.

[1232] So it could be communities.

[1233] So you don't have to be rich and famous.

[1234] I mean, if you are great, you've got reach.

[1235] But you can be a coach at your fitness box.

[1236] And in that classroom, there's going to be a percentage of the kid that got bullied and whatever.

[1237] And they're looking up to you to lead.

[1238] And you could either lead by saying, don't be a pussy and do this and pick up that fucking weight.

[1239] or you could be a different man, connect with that person, and now the human exchange has happened.

[1240] I do always think it would be cool.

[1241] Like, I actually want more than anything to talk to Connor McGregor on this podcast because I see a man who is just as big of a warrior as you can get.

[1242] And I also see a man who's got 26 Lamborghinis, and I think, oh, even that guy is still wrestling with all the same shit.

[1243] There's no way that's going to fill him up.

[1244] I would love to know what's going on.

[1245] And I'd love to urge anyone that's occupying this super, quote, masculine space to take 5 % of their message and make it vulnerability.

[1246] Can you imagine if Connor walked in here?

[1247] Knocked me out.

[1248] No, no, not knocked it out.

[1249] Showed the sensitive side to him because he has it too.

[1250] He's not just a warrior.

[1251] He's got pieces.

[1252] Parts of him that he.

[1253] is afraid to say because people see him a certain way.

[1254] Can you imagine as a brand almost?

[1255] Of course.

[1256] Fearless.

[1257] Right.

[1258] Yeah.

[1259] But can you imagine if he did that?

[1260] What would happen is that ripple, that dent would go ten times further than him rolling in with his boys in the car collection because that's predictable.

[1261] Thousand percent.

[1262] And then also...

[1263] And it's courage to do that.

[1264] Like Tyson, that's why I love Mike Tyson.

[1265] He is the best interviewee ever because he will own like he's not a warrior because he had a great nurturing upbringing he was victimized time and time again this was like the only option for him to stop being a victim and you know we shouldn't be striving to replicate his situation or you know what I'm saying right right you know what did you get from him in that interview that you're like oh wow I didn't see the side of him oh man one of my favorite things was Howard Stern said to him you know Howard's obsessed with the notion that he lost $500 million, that Mike Tyson somehow lost $500 million.

[1266] I'm obsessed with that.

[1267] I didn't know that now I'm obsessed with that.

[1268] Yeah, it's just like I covet money.

[1269] I covet the security quote of money.

[1270] And yeah, the notion, like, I can't even imagine carrying on after I lost $500 million.

[1271] So you think about getting over a divorce, in my mind, what it's like to have a half a billion dollars and then have nothing to me sounds like you can't even come back from that.

[1272] Right.

[1273] And he's like really drilling in on.

[1274] and he's expecting Mike to feel all this loss.

[1275] And Mike Tyson goes, listen to me, Howard.

[1276] I have friends that a billionaire kill themselves with families, the billionaires.

[1277] They have everything.

[1278] They have planes.

[1279] They have yachts.

[1280] They fucking kill themselves.

[1281] How would I have something so much more than $500 million now?

[1282] And I'm like, oh, my God, what a place to get to, to be at peace, having lost that, and to actually recognize that you could have way less than no money.

[1283] you could be a billionaire and have no love and have no optimism or anything it was just very powerful yeah i mean it hits harder because it's coming from that five percent guy totally that's why it hit so hard and that's why i feel like those people have so much power if they look inward and actually make that step to be courageous you know yeah and pull back the curtain a little bit all the way fucking rip them off the the rods yeah i'm sure even mike tyson when you put that belt on for the first time at 19 or 20 or whatever he did and he probably assumed all of his fears would evaporate in that moment and they certainly didn't you can't there's there's no fixing the internal stuff with external things unfortunately sure I met him once and I remember so when we had that restaurant bar for about a year it was very scenic and he came in and I walked up to him and I said hey you know my my cooks love you it would be amazing he looked at me he said sure And he went back there and he spent like half an hour with those guys and they were they were like peeing their pants and I was like here's like a real dude now I also asked that with a couple other people I'm not going to name but actors.

[1284] And I couldn't talk to them.

[1285] You had to go through their people.

[1286] I was trying to get them a drink or get you know host them.

[1287] It didn't work.

[1288] Yeah.

[1289] You know who does hold up though is Matt Damon.

[1290] Oh, Monica's not surprised.

[1291] Okay.

[1292] So Matt Damon came in and I'm saying Matt Damon because I'm not talking shit.

[1293] I'm applauding him because he came in.

[1294] in and he hung out with us after the club, sat in the little VIP airstream trailer.

[1295] And I remember it was just meet him and the promoter and he was treating me like we went to high school together.

[1296] And he had no reason to do that.

[1297] And I remember thinking to myself, wow, like he's a, he's a real guy.

[1298] Like he actually, you know, is who he is.

[1299] And he says, you know, he doesn't come off as a, someone who's better than you or posturing.

[1300] So again, he would be a good example of the 5%.

[1301] and his power isn't physically hurting people, but it's his...

[1302] But he has an alpha status.

[1303] Yeah, he's smart.

[1304] He deserves one.

[1305] And the women love him and he's got, you know, all that.

[1306] But holding up and showing a humanistic side to him to someone that he doesn't know.

[1307] And it's also not being documented, right?

[1308] So, you know, they say that what you're doing when no one's watching kind of thing.

[1309] Yeah.

[1310] I was like, wow, that's a stand -up guy.

[1311] Yeah, our therapist, Chris, a nice therapist, has this saying, he says all the time, which is do something nice for somebody and don't tell anyone.

[1312] Yeah, yeah.

[1313] I have a little man sheet on the back of my book, and he's in there because of that story.

[1314] Oh, really?

[1315] Yeah, yeah.

[1316] So you have many, many chapters, but is there...

[1317] It's 66 dues and don'ts, so I just make it very simple.

[1318] But I want to be careful.

[1319] I'm not providing a checklist.

[1320] This all relates to my story, and there's going to be things that you don't agree with, and I state that on page one.

[1321] I always bring it back to my story.

[1322] You know, I try not to use a lot of shoulds.

[1323] I used a lot of eye statements.

[1324] Right.

[1325] Well, great.

[1326] What's next?

[1327] What's the end goal for you?

[1328] Do you let yourself fantasize about that?

[1329] Are you just going with the flow?

[1330] I'm going with the flow.

[1331] I'm trusting the universe.

[1332] I kind of feel like I've come full circle where I finally have the ability to let go.

[1333] I believe that when I was in my 30s, so when I was doing the whole club thing and the screenwriting all this, there was a lot of opportunity that almost happened.

[1334] And I think if they did, I would be the.

[1335] the douchebag and the Ferrari cutting people off and the right I think that needed to not happen um and what's interesting about stories in the universe is now instead of screenwriting I'm writing books and blogs so the writing has continued it just in a different format well this is monica's great sentence that she learned from her grandma which is um love who loves you back love the thing that loves you back and it wasn't like you want it to me my grandma's so I know she's so fucking hot I just imagine how sexy it'd be if she said that to you I know she didn't But somebody did.

[1336] It's just somebody.

[1337] Yeah, I heard it somewhere.

[1338] But love the thing that loves you back.

[1339] And so if you're singular driven on a singular goal, your eyes are pretty close to possibilities.

[1340] Possibilities.

[1341] And also realizing where you're wanted, what you're saying or doing that actually people are interested in.

[1342] And it's hard, especially if you're a goal -oriented person, I certainly am, to get to a point where you're, Yeah, you're on the river, and the river's going in one direction.

[1343] You allow yourself to go with it and not see that diversion as a failing as much as just staying open -minded.

[1344] And also maybe, I also think it's just great to acknowledge that you don't know yourself as good as you think you do.

[1345] You know, you don't actually know what's best for you.

[1346] I just, in my own life, so many things I didn't want to do turned out to be the best things.

[1347] Most of the things that went exactly as planned did not yield the results I thought they were going to.

[1348] it's the idea of not fighting the universe because uh you know like movies there's always setups in your life and we don't know when they're going to pay off you know yeah well i love it um john thank you so much for coming thank you for having me i wish you a ton of luck on the book again thank you it is called i used to be a miserable fuck a man's guide to a meaningful life i couldn't say it because of course i don't say fuck on this yeah you're fair christine well thank you john Thank you for having me. And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1349] All I want to do is check some facts.

[1350] I got a feeling.

[1351] I'm not the only one.

[1352] All I want to do is check some facts.

[1353] I got a feeling.

[1354] The party has just begun.

[1355] Ooh, that was a good one.

[1356] Did someone recommend that?

[1357] They did.

[1358] Who was it?

[1359] They really did for some reason on my screen capture.

[1360] It doesn't...

[1361] No, it doesn't say.

[1362] No. Doggone it.

[1363] Whoever you are, thank you.

[1364] We love you.

[1365] We love you.

[1366] We love you so much.

[1367] It's nice to have a real well -written fact -check song.

[1368] Again, it's been a while.

[1369] I've been stubborn and insecure, really, is what it is.

[1370] What it boils down to, yeah, is that it was running out of steam.

[1371] getting annoying and laborious oh here comes i gotta listen to some which then made me insecure because i was like oh i'm not good enough for a song no no no no i'm just always trying to give folks the best show possible which means not not giving me a song well no no not talking about me no no no no no no not having me here wait a minute no you're the best part of the show you're going nowhere oh it's sunday morning again, guys.

[1372] It's early in the morning.

[1373] We have a long day ahead, a birthday party.

[1374] We have a pending birthday party.

[1375] Also, you're joining me at work next week.

[1376] That's right.

[1377] Which is so fun.

[1378] We're doing this on the weekends because I'm shooting two TV shows at the same time.

[1379] Uh -huh.

[1380] And in one of those TV shows, bless this mess.

[1381] I'll be there.

[1382] And you'll be bossing me around.

[1383] I think so.

[1384] Which is what you do best.

[1385] I know.

[1386] I was born to play it.

[1387] I felt bad for other people auditioning because it's like they haven't bossed me around for four years and you have.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] I had a leg up.

[1390] You really did.

[1391] So next time we record this, we'll either be celebrating or be crying.

[1392] You'll have gotten fired.

[1393] Yeah.

[1394] That's always an option.

[1395] Well, it is always an option, but not in this case.

[1396] Look, I'm getting nervous.

[1397] Okay.

[1398] That's your new pattern, though.

[1399] You like to think you're going to get fired.

[1400] Well, I don't like to.

[1401] I just do think that.

[1402] I know, but it's just not going to happen.

[1403] I did think that for that commercial.

[1404] I didn't get fired, but they should have fired me because I sounded horrible.

[1405] I had a horrible cold.

[1406] I sounded bad.

[1407] But do you think maybe they just forgot what your voice sounded like?

[1408] They were like, hmm, that sounds a little different, but I guess that's her voice.

[1409] Maybe.

[1410] They probably didn't think you had Ebola or something, did they?

[1411] You know what?

[1412] That commercial hasn't aired.

[1413] So now you've got a new theory that it was so bad they had to shelve it.

[1414] Yeah.

[1415] Why don't we have such useless thoughts?

[1416] Our brains are not healthy.

[1417] No, a portion of our brain is out to get us all day long.

[1418] Betraying itself constantly.

[1419] While we're sleeping, it's just preparing its attack.

[1420] Mm -hmm.

[1421] Yeah.

[1422] It's strategy.

[1423] I know.

[1424] I don't know.

[1425] Make us hate ourselves.

[1426] Yeah.

[1427] Well, good thing we have each other.

[1428] Yeah.

[1429] Because you point out when I'm being absurd.

[1430] Yeah.

[1431] I guess that's why you need a network of people.

[1432] Right.

[1433] Yeah.

[1434] By the way, when I was listening to Thomas Midditch, I love when he does his English accent.

[1435] It's so good, right?

[1436] Yeah.

[1437] I mean, what a leg up he has, though.

[1438] His parents were Brits.

[1439] He grew up in it, yeah.

[1440] He grew up hearing that sound.

[1441] Although I grew up hearing an Indian accent and I can't do one.

[1442] Can't or never try.

[1443] Both.

[1444] Both.

[1445] Well, then you can't know if you can if you've never tried.

[1446] No, no, okay.

[1447] I've tried.

[1448] Oh, secretly in your bedroom?

[1449] I think.

[1450] Oh.

[1451] And I really am not good at it.

[1452] But I also really don't want to be good at it.

[1453] So it's a catch.

[1454] It's who knows.

[1455] It's a catch one or two.

[1456] Do you think if you were really great at it, you couldn't resist the urge to make people laugh?

[1457] See, that would be me. I would like, I would disgrace my whole family if I thought I could get a laugh in the moment.

[1458] No. Because, you know, I already don't think it's funny.

[1459] Right.

[1460] Right.

[1461] Right.

[1462] So I definitely wouldn't do that.

[1463] I also am not good to accents at all.

[1464] Not British one?

[1465] No. Not even really Southern.

[1466] And again, that's a little bit sad.

[1467] But I think it has to do with, I think it's a part of my brain that's faulty.

[1468] And I think it's the same part that makes me unable to like recognize music.

[1469] Oh, okay.

[1470] So when a song starts, it takes me like a while before I like recognize the song.

[1471] But it is curious that you don't have a southern accent at all.

[1472] Like no, no residual at all.

[1473] Yeah.

[1474] Is that common in Atlanta?

[1475] Yeah.

[1476] It is.

[1477] Yeah.

[1478] Oh.

[1479] I know a lot of people that don't have any just because it's so suburban.

[1480] It could, you know, it could have been anywhere.

[1481] Yeah, but like, like Huey's got the best accent.

[1482] He's from Nashville.

[1483] Yeah.

[1484] But Nashville, the city, is far more southern than Atlanta.

[1485] Atlanta, the city is like not, you know.

[1486] It's not southern.

[1487] It's more city -like.

[1488] Oh, okay.

[1489] I would say.

[1490] All right.

[1491] Well, I would love it if you, because your mom's got a pretty thick Savannah accent.

[1492] Right, but remember I didn't even know that until you told me. Yeah, right when I, within three words of meeting her, I was like, oh, she's got a nice, thick southern accent.

[1493] I love it.

[1494] Yeah.

[1495] I like anything that kind of challenges what you're.

[1496] Your brain is used to.

[1497] Like, I used to work with a guy at GM who was Chinese first generation, and he was from Texas.

[1498] And he had a real thick southern accent.

[1499] Yeah.

[1500] And there was just a lot of fun, unmet expectation.

[1501] There was some disconnect.

[1502] Yeah, some dissonance.

[1503] Yeah, you like that.

[1504] You think that's what comedy is.

[1505] Well, some of it.

[1506] Yeah, yeah.

[1507] So let's point out something fun is Wobby Wob's not here.

[1508] Right.

[1509] He's vacationing somewhere.

[1510] We don't know where.

[1511] No. He just took off.

[1512] He just vanished like Kaiser Sose.

[1513] Oh.

[1514] And so you're doing all the tech stuff and it's really fun.

[1515] But also you're a little nervous at shutting down, which is natural.

[1516] Because I'm not next to it.

[1517] Yeah.

[1518] You have a lot on your shoulders.

[1519] You have the fact check.

[1520] You have to be fun and interesting and dispel the erroneous claims.

[1521] Sure.

[1522] And then you also got to run this whole board over there.

[1523] Uh -huh.

[1524] And I have frillies on my shoulders.

[1525] Super cute outfit.

[1526] Yeah.

[1527] You didn't really drive.

[1528] rest for the occasion.

[1529] Like, you should be in coveralls.

[1530] I like to buck the system in that way, you know?

[1531] Comedy.

[1532] Okay.

[1533] John Kim.

[1534] Yeah.

[1535] So he, when his family moved over, they went to Columbus, Georgia for a few years.

[1536] And Columbus is where my cheerleading state competitions were.

[1537] Oh, really?

[1538] Those years, yeah.

[1539] They host every year.

[1540] What makes them so perfectly suited to host this state championship, do they have a beautiful arena there or something um yeah there's just a big stadium there i guess yeah who funded that is it called like the the um boy my brain's not or the checkers stadium no you know i really associate checkers fast food with georgia because that was the only place i ever got it when i was younger yeah which is also rallies or did we have a fight about this before yeah i don't believe it is and i think the reason i think you think that is because they both have um a breaded french which is delicious.

[1541] Raleys, French fries, and checkers are breaded.

[1542] They're so good.

[1543] I don't think that's why I thought that because I've never been to rallies.

[1544] Oh, you haven't?

[1545] No. Okay.

[1546] But I just thought that, like I thought that based on knowledge that they were the same and that it was just regional why one's called one thing and the other is called another thing.

[1547] And we also thought that about crystals and White Castle and you know to that.

[1548] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1549] And also what rallies is associated with, which is really confusing to me, is Hardee's.

[1550] So now commercials will be for rallies and Hardys.

[1551] And now those were two distinct different hamburger chains when I was a kid in Michigan.

[1552] They bore no resemblance to one another, but they have somehow merged.

[1553] Oh.

[1554] Isn't that interesting?

[1555] Because I thought Hardies was also equivalent to something else.

[1556] You just reminded me of the best, one of the best periods of my life.

[1557] Aaron Weekly, my best friend, worked at Hardee's for a little minute.

[1558] Oh.

[1559] And he was the cook.

[1560] And so I would come in and I would order like a single burger for 60 cents.

[1561] And he would make me a triple cheese burger, like a special burger no one else got.

[1562] Yeah, he'd give me about $2 .40 worth of food for 69 cents.

[1563] It was so great.

[1564] And then he would just shovel a bunch of fries into the bag.

[1565] That's really a good friend.

[1566] That's about the best job a friend can work at in high school.

[1567] Because all I really wanted was just fast food and a ton of it.

[1568] Tons, yeah.

[1569] But I was on a budget.

[1570] Sure.

[1571] Couldn't roll into Hardee's and drop $9 on a triple cheeseburger.

[1572] Do you have to have some sort of experience to do that?

[1573] Yeah.

[1574] No, I think they, you know, he was only 16 or 17.

[1575] Well.

[1576] Yeah.

[1577] I tell you, the funny thing is about going back to Michigan, and I always forget it.

[1578] is that teenagers run all the restaurants.

[1579] Yeah.

[1580] Is it that way in Georgia?

[1581] Yeah, not all the restaurants, but a lot of young people working at these places, yes.

[1582] I'll go into a gas station at 1 a .m. in Michigan, there's a damn 15 -year -old managing the whole place.

[1583] And I love it.

[1584] I always think, like, this person's so ill -equipped to deal with some kind of emergency.

[1585] Yeah, yikes.

[1586] Like, you know many parents in Michigan have received a call at 1 a .m. from their 15 -year -old going, Oh, my God, I'm running the mobile gas station and a pump just exploded.

[1587] What do I do?

[1588] Do you think they'd call their parents first?

[1589] Of course.

[1590] Not the manager.

[1591] Probably not.

[1592] You get mom or dad on the phone.

[1593] Mom, there's a man in the store without his pants on.

[1594] That's the kind of thing you're going to see a lot.

[1595] For sure.

[1596] I'm scared for them.

[1597] Depends what kind of 15 -year -old you are because I would have loved that, just gathering different bizarre experiences.

[1598] Yeah.

[1599] Probably getting held up.

[1600] I know.

[1601] Well, they probably make the right decision, which is just fork over the $80 in the register.

[1602] I hope so.

[1603] Don't put up a fight.

[1604] It's just a paper in a register.

[1605] But I kind of think kids wouldn't do that because they wouldn't know, like.

[1606] Just a cooperator.

[1607] They get too nervous.

[1608] They get nervous.

[1609] Drop the money all over the floor.

[1610] And the person would think that was a stalling decoy.

[1611] Or that they tripped a silent alarm by dropping it.

[1612] Right.

[1613] Yeah.

[1614] A silent alarm at a mobile gas station.

[1615] Anyway, so yeah, so that's where I won my victory, plural, which then sent you to nationals.

[1616] No, God.

[1617] You don't have a national title?

[1618] Yeah, how many times have I said?

[1619] We weren't allowed to go because of SAT scores.

[1620] I told you that.

[1621] Because of SAT scores.

[1622] Yeah, as a state.

[1623] The SAT score were so long.

[1624] Oh, no. So Georgia's state SAT.

[1625] SAT mean was so low.

[1626] Yeah.

[1627] That they wouldn't let you guys compete in nationals?

[1628] And now I'm wondering if I'm wrong.

[1629] But I'm pretty, that was definitely what we were told.

[1630] That was the rumor.

[1631] Oh, is a rumor.

[1632] Well, no, I'm saying now maybe that was a rumor.

[1633] Maybe I just didn't know the truth.

[1634] But we were not, we were not allowed to go any further.

[1635] State was the highest you could do in Georgia at that time.

[1636] I'm going to, I'm going to float another idea.

[1637] Okay.

[1638] The nationals was.

[1639] sponsored by SunKiss that was trying to promote orange consumption and Georgia is the peach state and they didn't want a competing fruit.

[1640] That sounds most likely, yeah.

[1641] Doesn't that sound like what really happened?

[1642] Yeah, I think that's...

[1643] I just can't imagine punishing.

[1644] I bet the median SAT score on the cheer squad was probably fine.

[1645] Yeah, it was probably fine.

[1646] So why punish those kids?

[1647] I know.

[1648] But I think it had to do with the sports across the board in Georgia.

[1649] Again, unless it was the specific athletes, like I understand, well, by the way, I don't really understand.

[1650] But the way they, like, the football players have to have a 2 .0 to play.

[1651] Right.

[1652] You think that's bad?

[1653] Well, at least it has the, it's to motivate individually.

[1654] Yes, I do think it's bad.

[1655] You'd really need to watch the three seasons of last chance to you.

[1656] Well, I watched it.

[1657] Here's why I don't agree with it.

[1658] Some of these kids that are showing up at these colleges have come from these tiny little rural communities where they, really have a fourth grade education.

[1659] Yeah.

[1660] And this football thing is the only good thing in their life.

[1661] It's their only chance at going through a college and doing this thing.

[1662] And then you're you're just holding them to a standard of all these other kids that went to good schools who had parents who helped them study, all this stuff.

[1663] So all you're doing is you're taking someone who's already completely disadvantaged and you're taking one more thing away from them.

[1664] And to what end?

[1665] Don't get me wrong.

[1666] I understand the theoretical thing, which which is they should leave here at least with an education.

[1667] Yeah.

[1668] But all in practice it means is they just leave there immediately.

[1669] So they get nothing.

[1670] Right.

[1671] I mean, I think the kids that are going to get a two point and above are going to get it anyways.

[1672] And then you're just going to kick a bunch of kids out who can barely read.

[1673] This is this one thing they could possibly excel at.

[1674] Yeah.

[1675] Okay.

[1676] So I looked up why the term Oriental is offensive.

[1677] And in 2009, New York Governor David Patterson signed a bill that, ban state documents from using the term oriental when referring to people of Asian or Pacific heritage.

[1678] And Jeff Yang, an Asian pop columnist.

[1679] Columnist.

[1680] Yeah, that sounded.

[1681] You're going to drop the end?

[1682] Yeah, that sounded really weird.

[1683] Columnist.

[1684] For the San Francisco Chronicle, did a little interview about this.

[1685] And he said, I think history really does play a huge role in this.

[1686] It's a term which you can't think of without having that sort of.

[1687] of the smell of incense and the sound of a gong kind of in your head.

[1688] And, you know, beyond that, the cultural baggage that comes with it, it's something which has been associated with racist campaigns, with stereotypical imagery.

[1689] And you know, frankly, it's not a very precise term.

[1690] When you think about it, Orient, its Orient translates into East.

[1691] It's a term that feels old.

[1692] It feels antiquated.

[1693] And for it to even be kind of contemplated occasionally in a casual usage is something which Asian Americans certainly feel uncomfortable with.

[1694] So.

[1695] Yeah, I totally understand.

[1696] and them feeling uncomfortable with it and it should be avoided.

[1697] But I'm glad to hear that I'm not wrong in that it just is the opposite of Occidental, right?

[1698] Doesn't Occidental mean west and Oriental means east?

[1699] Occidental means west?

[1700] Oh, I don't know.

[1701] I should double check that on Google, but yeah, I'm almost positive.

[1702] Occidental and Oriental are opposites relating to the countries of the West.

[1703] Yeah.

[1704] Oh, cool.

[1705] I didn't know that.

[1706] Yeah, there's an Occidental College out here, right?

[1707] Yeah.

[1708] Anywho, yeah.

[1709] Yeah.

[1710] Well, I guess it was, it's so interesting words and the power that we give them and then also the baggage they pick up.

[1711] Yeah.

[1712] Because that just starts as a straight definition.

[1713] It's probably Latin in origin.

[1714] But then it gets used in a pejorative way for so long.

[1715] You've got to ditch the word.

[1716] Yeah.

[1717] They're definitely powerful words.

[1718] We talk about that a lot on here.

[1719] It's funny because I, at both times, I can.

[1720] relate to the people on both sides.

[1721] So I do believe at some point, we'll say Asian was wrong.

[1722] It'll evolve.

[1723] And I think people are like, what do we have to say now?

[1724] So I do understand the, even we deal with this all the time, like mental retardation or mentally disabled.

[1725] It's all the same thing.

[1726] And if you're saying it in a positive, non -judgmental way, it just feels like, okay, well, we're just going to keep using a different word.

[1727] But I, you knew my intention.

[1728] of the whole time.

[1729] But I should have said the other part first.

[1730] The other part is, yeah, there's always going to be change.

[1731] Yeah.

[1732] Things are going to involve.

[1733] An expectation that things aren't going to change is actually not realistic.

[1734] Yeah.

[1735] And you just have to accept that there's going to be change all the time.

[1736] And it's no, you know, it's not a personal attack on you that things evolve and change.

[1737] And that's just the nature of civilization.

[1738] Yeah.

[1739] And if your intention is to be.

[1740] positive, then it shouldn't bother you when you hear, oh, that's not positive, because then you can just change the thing and your intention is the same, which is I'm just trying to communicate about this person or this race or this thing.

[1741] Yeah.

[1742] It shouldn't be annoying to hear that that's offensive because if your intention is good, then why does it matter what the word is?

[1743] Yeah.

[1744] Yeah, I guess I came up against this personally the other day because I referred to on the podcast, someone being transsexual.

[1745] Now, when I grew up, the responsible thing to do was to know the difference between a transvestite and a transsexual.

[1746] A transvestite was someone who dressed like a gender other than the one they were originally associated with as a baby.

[1747] And then transsexual was someone who had gone through some level of gender reassignment surgery.

[1748] And someone said that I couldn't say transsexual.

[1749] And I did for a minute have this thought of like, no, no, I actually took the time to learn the difference between the both.

[1750] And I used it correctly.

[1751] But then I thought, oh, maybe now you can't say, I don't know.

[1752] And I did have a moment of like, oh, this is frustrating.

[1753] I would have to, like, dedicate time to staying abreast of all these different words.

[1754] But to your point, big deal.

[1755] I have to stay abreast of them.

[1756] It's not even you have to stay abreast.

[1757] If you say it and someone says, oh, actually, you can't say that.

[1758] then you're going to say, oh, okay.

[1759] And the next time you won't say it.

[1760] It's not like you have to go out searching for every correct thing all the time, but when somebody tells you and someone brings it to your attention, great, now you know.

[1761] Yeah.

[1762] We can't know everything.

[1763] No. We can't know everything.

[1764] But we can be open, exactly.

[1765] You can be open to hearing from other people and adjusting.

[1766] Well, I did defend myself on Twitter.

[1767] I was actually referring to someone who, the whole point was how rooted is for people to ask trans, what I would have said before transsexuals, whether or not they've had their genitals changed, which seems to be a huge curiosity of people when they're hearing.

[1768] Yeah.

[1769] And I was pointing out that that was wrong.

[1770] And then even in doing that, I had someone thought I did it wrong.

[1771] So I did defend myself, which is probably the wrong move.

[1772] Anyways, live and learn.

[1773] Oh, he asked an interesting question, which we kind of blew over.

[1774] But he said, what's the female equivalent to boys dancing?

[1775] Because he's saying boys who are good at dancing is like a universal attraction for females.

[1776] And what is the opposite?

[1777] And you made a joke saying, like, they should just be breathing or something, which is funny.

[1778] But I wonder if there is a real thing like that.

[1779] What do you think?

[1780] Do you think?

[1781] I do think guys also find women dancing very stimulating and attractive.

[1782] Because what dancing really imbudes is confidence.

[1783] And we all agree confidence is very attractive.

[1784] I know.

[1785] Okay.

[1786] Yes.

[1787] I think it is to a healthy person.

[1788] But I kind of think I've been thinking lately that maybe it's not all that.

[1789] Maybe if you yourself are unhealthy or super insecure, like you.

[1790] You are, you're attracted to that.

[1791] It's like really bad.

[1792] But maybe it makes you feel better about yourself if somebody else is equally insecure or more so.

[1793] Well, I could see someone who's a like pathological control freak and wants a partner who they can control and manipulate that that would, yeah, they would not be going after someone who's got a lot of confidence.

[1794] Right.

[1795] But I do think conventionally, I've found this to be anecdotally true.

[1796] you match up self -esteem people seem to match up couples on their own self -esteem and that's what i think it's dicey in relationships where one person's taking a lot of actions to improve their self -esteem through maybe physical fitness and then they they outgrow the other the partner yeah and i think one of the elements is yeah they they now have different self -esteem and when you have different self -esteem you see the world differently right like in one scenario you kind of feel like a victim to the world and another one you feel like maybe you have some kind of sway over the world.

[1797] Right.

[1798] I could see those being incompatible world views.

[1799] Yeah.

[1800] But I do think what's going on in a primitive sense is like in a chimpanzee troop.

[1801] Is it a troop?

[1802] Boy, I should know that.

[1803] That's embarrassing.

[1804] I think everyone's trying to get with as high status of a person as they can.

[1805] Yeah.

[1806] And confidence reads a status, I think.

[1807] Mm -hmm.

[1808] You know?

[1809] Yeah.

[1810] I mean, I think that's what's going on in the reptilian brain that you're not even aware of.

[1811] Right.

[1812] It's like, oh, I would like to be with the highest status person that's within my realm of getting.

[1813] Of course, you can overcome that.

[1814] I've overcome that.

[1815] I've, like, maybe assess someone as not high status, but then I got to know their personality.

[1816] It was intoxicating, and then I didn't even think about that.

[1817] But it's like, what do you mean by status, you know?

[1818] Pecking order in your social circle.

[1819] Like in junior high, you know, there's pretty obvious who's highest status and who's lowest status.

[1820] It's kind of.

[1821] I mean, it's like there's popular people who would be.

[1822] There's also really smart people who in other ways would be too, but they are not in the same way and not.

[1823] So I think there's more variation.

[1824] Sure.

[1825] Little, little like modular groups within the bigger group.

[1826] Yeah.

[1827] I also think attraction is so much about.

[1828] how that person makes you feel about yourself.

[1829] So status can go out the window.

[1830] It's why successful people are with not successful people.

[1831] And people are always like, why is that person with that person?

[1832] It's because that person is making this person feel very good about themselves.

[1833] But then that comes full circle.

[1834] the kid in your fourth grade class who everyone knows eats his boogers and eats glue he tells you you're pretty it it doesn't make you feel the same way as the most desirable guy telling you you look pretty that's true which is stupid yeah but i do think yeah you're you're going oh well this guy eats his boogers it's not that stupid you don't really want somebody running around eating glue and eating their boogers and stuff around you i get that but But silly is, you know, someone's opinion that you're pretty is someone's opinion.

[1835] Like, but yeah, you won't count that.

[1836] Right.

[1837] You're like, oh, that doesn't mean anything.

[1838] That guy eats his boogers and glue.

[1839] You know, he thinks boogers taste good.

[1840] So if I'm pretty, you know, he didn't say meatloaf tastes good.

[1841] He thinks boogers taste good.

[1842] So, of course, he thinks a non -pretty person is pretty.

[1843] Right, exactly, yeah.

[1844] Anyway, so I guess you're saying dancing.

[1845] I wish there was a, I do think we're very, we're way less discerning, though.

[1846] I do too.

[1847] Well, I think it's so physical for you boys.

[1848] Yeah.

[1849] I'm proud of myself that that was not the case for me. I mean, granted, like Randy Hammond was the prettiest girl in my junior high.

[1850] But she had a kick -ass personality.

[1851] She was the best high jumper in our kind of county.

[1852] Yeah, you said that.

[1853] And then Carrie, our girl, had the best personality of anyone in Wald Lake Michigan.

[1854] I mean, she was a firefly.

[1855] She was also cute, but I mean, there were.

[1856] There were girls as cute that I had zero interest in because they weren't a spitfire.

[1857] Yeah.

[1858] I always like to party.

[1859] It's only that you can really have a blast with just sitting at a restaurant having coffee.

[1860] Right.

[1861] But you're talking about dating.

[1862] I get so bored at just staring at someone pretty.

[1863] You're talking about dating.

[1864] Yeah, I'm just saying staring at someone pretty for me wears out real quick.

[1865] Yeah.

[1866] I need to have like an engaging, fun, challenging conversation or trying to make each other laugh.

[1867] Which is not to say I didn't date some dumbasses that were hot because I also did that.

[1868] And you've also had sex with a bunch of them.

[1869] Oh, sure.

[1870] Sex is a different category.

[1871] That's what I'm saying.

[1872] But that's a, that's just pure attraction.

[1873] For me, sex, I can have sex with anyone nearly.

[1874] Truly.

[1875] Really?

[1876] Yeah.

[1877] Especially when I drank.

[1878] Well, sure, yeah.

[1879] When I drank, you know, sky's the limit.

[1880] Do you find when you get drunk that people get more attractive to you?

[1881] No. Really?

[1882] Which I know that's a thing.

[1883] I mean, I know everyone gets, like, looser when they're wrong.

[1884] Yeah, a little hornier.

[1885] Yeah.

[1886] They do.

[1887] Which, that does happen, but it's not directed at.

[1888] Like, I don't, people don't become more attractive.

[1889] Oh, they don't?

[1890] Well, I'm trying to think, actually.

[1891] I would have, like, friends that I, I'm like, do not find them attractive, but I'd be hammered and all of a sudden I'd be staring at them.

[1892] I'm like, she's very attractive.

[1893] And this would be a new, it would be a thought I only had when I was hammered.

[1894] But then would it stick?

[1895] Would it like after the next day?

[1896] Were you like, oh, now I, no. No. You haven't, like, found yourself chatting with someone, like a friend?

[1897] You're like, they are hot.

[1898] And then the next morning you're like, then the next morning when you're sober, you're like, oh, that's funny.

[1899] I was thinking so -and -so was hot.

[1900] I don't really think that.

[1901] Yeah, that has probably happened.

[1902] That has probably happened.

[1903] It's hard to say because I'm mainly thinking back to, like, when I was much younger.

[1904] College.

[1905] Yeah.

[1906] And I think at that time, I was, like, hoping.

[1907] everyone would be attracted.

[1908] Like, I wanted to be...

[1909] Horny for everyone?

[1910] I just wanted somebody.

[1911] Uh -huh.

[1912] So I would...

[1913] It was like I was forcing my brain to try to see them as attractive, but I didn't.

[1914] Right.

[1915] So it's hard to differentiate who I really was attracted to and who I just wanted to be attracted to.

[1916] Yeah.

[1917] Yeah.

[1918] Yeah.

[1919] But I don't have that anymore.

[1920] I don't have that thing where I'm like hoping somebody's attractive in a conversation.

[1921] Right.

[1922] Oh, is Christian Hussoy?

[1923] Is he half Asian?

[1924] Yes.

[1925] His father is of Japanese descent from Hawaii and his mother is Caucasian.

[1926] Caucasoid.

[1927] Yes.

[1928] Oh.

[1929] So he's half.

[1930] Half Oriental.

[1931] I'm just kidding.

[1932] He's half Occidental, half Oriental.

[1933] He's half Oxy, half Ori, 100 % Ental.

[1934] Yeah.

[1935] Yeah.

[1936] He's half Occidental.

[1937] 100 % Ental.

[1938] I'm hungry.

[1939] Oh, okay.

[1940] Should we leave?

[1941] Did the Dukes of Hazard model car have a Confederate flag on it?

[1942] Yes.

[1943] Sure, of course.

[1944] A huge one I saw.

[1945] Absolutely.

[1946] Well, you can't name a car the General Lee and not put a rebel flag on the roof.

[1947] That's true.

[1948] That's true.

[1949] It's on brand.

[1950] Yeah.

[1951] I'd be like naming the car the Adolf Hitler and not put a swastika on the roof.

[1952] If you're calling the car the Adolf Hitler, I'm sure.

[1953] sorry, but it's, it's going to probably have a swastika.

[1954] If you're calling a car that, you're not my friend.

[1955] I think I've talked about this already, but you know what's funny is I, I am obsessed with all these different historical figures, and I read the Grant biography, Ulysses S. Grant, who famously won the Civil War for the North.

[1956] And I kept resisting reading a book about Robert E. Lee Oh.

[1957] Just because I'm on this side of history, you know?

[1958] Yeah.

[1959] And I finally did read a biography on him and super fascinating guy and just an incredible tactical genius and it's just really funny that I had to like have a hurdle yeah to enjoy hearing about his life yeah that's okay it's okay to have interesting it's okay to have some moral yeah but if I was reading about the visigoth general who overthrew Rome I just I have no connection to that so I can just read read about history and enjoy whatever, the protagonist of that story.

[1960] Yeah.

[1961] It's also interwoven with racism and slavery.

[1962] Well, that's what I was about to say, what happened with General Lee has still having an effect every day.

[1963] Yeah.

[1964] But so were, you know, if I read about an Egyptian pharaoh, implicit in that is like, you know, millions of slaves building.

[1965] But I would, I would guilt -free dive into a King Tutankumman biography.

[1966] Yeah, I guess it's just how removed do you feel from a thing.

[1967] Yeah.

[1968] Yeah.

[1969] Yeah.

[1970] I guess I don't see the daily baggage or wreckage from the two tan common error.

[1971] Yeah.

[1972] But I do see, you know, the disparity in America.

[1973] Yeah.

[1974] Yeah.

[1975] So you were talking about relationships and you said if you're looking for it to be easy, odds are you didn't pick someone you respect.

[1976] But I just want, just in case somebody's in a great marriage and it's super easy.

[1977] I don't want them to feel like, oh, no, now I've, and then they divorce them and it's all your fault.

[1978] I go too far with some of these statements for sure.

[1979] Well, that's why we fact checked.

[1980] Yeah.

[1981] Because it's not a fact.

[1982] No, I'll walk that back.

[1983] Okay.

[1984] I think that when we had John Gottman on, and he was talking about thin slicing and watching these couples and stuff.

[1985] And I was nervous because I said, oh, this looks like maybe this is just a personality thing.

[1986] Oh, right.

[1987] You were concerned that like congeniality was a requirement of yeah and then he said he said agreeability is the component which makes a marriage really work uh -huh and so he said if you aren't an agreeable person you probably should partner with an agreeable person so i think your marriage could be easy if you just have that balance struck well i don't know look easy is probably not true i don't Anyone's relationships are easy.

[1988] Knowing you, I don't think in any world you would be happy with someone highly agreeable.

[1989] I know.

[1990] That was my point when I was sitting there.

[1991] I was like, well, I'm doomed.

[1992] But Kristen's not highly agreeable at all.

[1993] And I'm not highly agreeable at all.

[1994] Kristen kind of is in her normal life, but not with me. You see that firsthand.

[1995] There's no agreeability.

[1996] I don't think.

[1997] I think that's true.

[1998] You don't?

[1999] I think she, I mean, I think she comes to the party.

[2000] I don't think she's just saying like, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[2001] She challenges me on almost any statement I made.

[2002] She challenges you, but she's not, I feel like she never doesn't hear you.

[2003] Oh, but yeah, but I don't think that's a component of agreeability.

[2004] Well, I do because it just feels like people are talking and exploring.

[2005] It doesn't feel like there's a. fight or disagreeing.

[2006] I mean, sometimes, sure, but in general, I feel like she's...

[2007] If I come home and I tell a story about getting in a fight with a parking attendant, right?

[2008] Uh -huh.

[2009] Uh -huh.

[2010] Which just happened.

[2011] Yes, I was there.

[2012] Yeah, she immediately goes, she's not on board with that.

[2013] Like, an agreeable person would be like, oh, I'm sorry you had that, you got revved up.

[2014] Yeah.

[2015] You know, I hope you don't get a ticket tomorrow.

[2016] Whatever.

[2017] She's like, that person, you know, she immediately starts walking me through like, you know.

[2018] No, she did not.

[2019] I promise.

[2020] because I was sort of expecting that.

[2021] That was my reaction.

[2022] Right.

[2023] It was like, hello, what are you doing?

[2024] This person has a job you do not want.

[2025] Correct.

[2026] And they have an obligation to write tickets for people parked illegally.

[2027] That's the job description.

[2028] So this was my thought.

[2029] But I thought she was very much like.

[2030] I think that's just because she's also experienced the frustration of trying to drop them off at that school, which is nearly impossible.

[2031] Oh, I know.

[2032] I never want to do that.

[2033] It's awful.

[2034] It's awful, yeah.

[2035] So probably maybe in that situation.

[2036] But in general, if I come home and tell a story where I got into it with somebody, her immediate general response is like, you shouldn't have got into it with anybody.

[2037] But, you know, this is not, none of this is fair to anyone because normally when you get in a fight with somebody on the street, by the time you've told other people, you are including the fact that you were wrong.

[2038] Oh, right.

[2039] Yeah.

[2040] You've already come to that conclusion by.

[2041] the time you're even sharing it so no one has to say to you like well listen i don't think that was super smart of you to do or nice you're already saying i blew i feel really badly about this yeah so she is just saying like yeah she is saying i'm sorry that happened i think she literally maybe said those exact words when you told that parking store really yes and but that's also because you are you are already there anyways i don't think she's very agreeable and i don't think you're very agreeable and i don't think i'm very agreeable and i think you'll be very happy with some disagreeable man that you'll just figure out how to disagree peacefully yeah yeah you would just be bored i i know yeah i know you and i are the same you actually want someone to agree with you not appease you like the goal is hopefully they'll have a similar opinion as you not just appease you or placate you yeah i don't that sounds terrible yeah um speaking of my future husband um he told a really nice story about matt damon oh yeah yeah yeah yeah i was proud of him yeah yeah i like that story are you so excited for i'm so excited for the new matt damon movie do you know this is going to combine our two loves what they're telling the very famous story about Henry Ford the second being in a public feud with Ferrari.

[2042] Oh, wow.

[2043] And building the GT40 just to beat Ferrari at LeMond.

[2044] And they're telling this historical story.

[2045] And Matt Damon's in it.

[2046] And Christian Bale.

[2047] Kristen Bell.

[2048] I couldn't be more pumped.

[2049] That's so exciting.

[2050] I didn't know about this.

[2051] Two movies that look forward to that.

[2052] And the Tarantino movies come.

[2053] on our way.

[2054] And us, Jordan Peels us.

[2055] I want to see it so bad.

[2056] Oh, yes.

[2057] Three movies.

[2058] Well, that's it.

[2059] That's it?

[2060] Yeah.

[2061] On John Kim.

[2062] It's it on John Kim.

[2063] I love you.

[2064] Great job doing the tech and the opinions.

[2065] Thank you.

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