The “Winning Expert”: How To Become The Best You Can Be: Sir David Brailsford

[0] I'm very, very lucky that I get to help other people be the best version of themselves.

[1] Sir David Browseford, to many, he's one of the greatest winners of our generation.

[2] If you can get that little bit of insight, why do I feel how I'm feeling?

[3] Why do I respond like I do?

[4] And then you realise, I think, wow, a lot of my behaviour, a lot of my life was driven by emotion.

[5] It wasn't driven by the real me. Best thing ever if it happens, and if it doesn't, then you might be absolutely devastated.

[6] But you've got to leave it as a dream.

[7] And you've got to understand that actually worrying about the consequence of an event is detrimental to the process and the performance and the chances of you achieving that event.

[8] Perfection was so far away.

[9] That is no point in time because we're going to fail every day.

[10] So I thought, well, let's have a little progression.

[11] It's right, then.

[12] What could we do by next week that we're not doing this week?

[13] What little things could we do?

[14] There's a million things that could impact performance.

[15] And it works.

[16] It works.

[17] 100 % it works.

[18] It's been in 20 years.

[19] Sir David Brelseford.

[20] I've tried since this podcast began to get Sir David Breltsford to come here and have a conversation with me. So having this conversation today and being able to share it with you is one of the highlights all time in this podcast history.

[21] I don't think it's an understatement to say that he has worked miracles with teams, taking teams in cycling that were underachieving and making them undeniable.

[22] the greatest team in their world, and maybe of a generation.

[23] He's famous for this concept of marginal gains.

[24] It's a concept which I speak to my team about every single day, and maybe that's why I wanted to sit here with him.

[25] Today you will understand, without a shadow of a doubt, how to build a successful team.

[26] That's what you'll come away with.

[27] You'll understand how to be successful personally.

[28] You'll understand how to inspire those around you to be successful.

[29] for.

[30] But the surprising thing, which I think you'll also take away from this, is the cost of success.

[31] And we don't often take enough time to ask ourselves that very honest question.

[32] Is the climb worth the view?

[33] But by the end of this podcast, I think you'll be closer in your life to having an answer for that question.

[34] So without further ado, I'm Stephen Butler, and this is the die of a CEO.

[35] I hope nobody's listening.

[36] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[37] A conscious sense of outsiderness from a very early age.

[38] You said that once upon a time, and it rang very true to me as well, and I found it to be a very relatable thing.

[39] Where did that come from?

[40] Where did your conscious sense of outsideness come from?

[41] It's funny when he say that, because it resonates.

[42] It really does.

[43] So I was very young, I'm just been born and my parents, my dad really, decided to move from Derby where I was born to North Wales and by a house in Snowdonia, a very keen climber and he wanted to go to the proximity of the mountains.

[44] So we moved over there and I grew up.

[45] It was a very, very Welsh, dominated, Welsh -speaking little village called Danielan.

[46] I went to primary school there and grew up speaking First Language Welsh, all my friends were Welsh.

[47] Everybody was Welsh.

[48] pretty much apart from my parents and I had this sort of conundrum then I didn't probably realize it at a time but I certainly on reflection you look back and you know I was very very much in this Welsh community very very tight community and I'd go home and my parents were obviously English parents and I felt you know my dad didn't really conform he was there to climb he was there as it's one of these outside who had come in there to you know get up into the mountains and um and i think that that left me challenged i think because i was so wanted to be the same as all my mates same as everybody else part to try part of the gang and yet somewhere inside i felt maybe i wasn't quite you know it wasn't it wasn't fully immersed in it you know it wasn't quite there and don't get me wrong i loved it and i still i go back then i love it i've got you know my great friends there my mom still lives there but i never actually quite, quite got that full sense of I belong there, you know, so I've always felt that a little bit on the outside, I guess.

[49] You went on to be a great anomaly in what you've achieved in your life and success.

[50] And I look, I'm always, I guess I'm a bit nosy, but I'm, and I did a little bit childhood psychology when I was in school.

[51] So I try and look at like, which, what the parental dynamics were that might have made someone that little bit more relentless and that little bit more hardworking and I sat here with Eddie Hearn and I go, oh, your dad.

[52] I could tell the way his dad was that ruthless intensity clearly rubbed off when him at a young age.

[53] And I was reading about how you described your dad.

[54] And it seemed to be, dare I say, a little bit similar to.

[55] Yeah, he was orphan when he was very young.

[56] So he lost his mum when he was five, lost his dad when he was seven.

[57] And of course, for anybody that's going to have a big impact.

[58] And I think he had a, you know a life -changing impact on him and um i think he he was then fostered and um you know he tells a story when he was he was growing up in a foster family foster family'd eat together and they'd make him eat in another room and you know not it was tough enough i guess and i think that's had a profound effect on who he was and and he became um somebody who was very much uh you know driven to to make his own way and i think you know that was one of his core, core, sort of deep -seated drives and values is that he pushed hard and it was always about being professionals, all about working hard, make your own way.

[59] You know, don't rely on anybody else to do anything for you, do it for yourself.

[60] And he drilled that into us, and I think we just lived it, really.

[61] And cycling, you were very into cycling from a young age.

[62] I had used to wait on Thursdays for the sort of cycling newspaper to arrive.

[63] Yeah, that's Cycling Weekly, yeah.

[64] Cycling Weekly, yeah.

[65] A little magazine, which is a bit of a cult magazine, you know, quite a niche magazine, and that used to arrive, get delivered on a Thursday.

[66] And I had to wait with great anticipation.

[67] And, you know, it was one of those when the newspapers came around, you get your cycling weekly, and then you'd sit there and read about all the results and who'd done what.

[68] Of course, there was nothing on internet.

[69] There was no other way of getting the news, you know.

[70] And in the back, there was all these little sections where all the results were, all the race results.

[71] And he looked to see who'd done what.

[72] study it all.

[73] It was like a real, you know, it's a real part of the cycling culture.

[74] And still it's, to be fair, Cycling Week is still going, despite all of the changes in sort of media and everything else.

[75] But for me, it's a real cornerstone of my growing up with a sport, that's for sure.

[76] You then go to school.

[77] You go to university?

[78] Do you go to university?

[79] No, no. I didn't enjoy school at all.

[80] Did an apprenticeship?

[81] No, no. Well, no, no, I'd left school when I was 16.

[82] Yeah.

[83] First day could leave school.

[84] I was out.

[85] I was done.

[86] I didn't enjoy school.

[87] Why?

[88] I don't know.

[89] I just didn't like being confined.

[90] I didn't like having to sit in chemistry lessons.

[91] And I just didn't.

[92] It wasn't for me. You know, I just didn't enjoy it.

[93] And it wasn't, I couldn't do it, I don't think.

[94] I just didn't enjoy the environment.

[95] I enjoyed the PE and I enjoyed being with my friends and all that kind of stuff.

[96] But I didn't, I don't know, I just didn't enjoy that educational.

[97] I felt trapped.

[98] I felt enclosed and, and I don't know.

[99] I wasn't really motivated to learn.

[100] at that time, you know, I was off doing other things, really.

[101] Do you think because you had so much freedom in your child at home, you then struggled going to places where you didn't have that same level of freedom?

[102] Yeah, well, I certainly like autonomy.

[103] There's no doubt about that, you know, and I think it's probably there since childhood, you know, because I did, I enjoyed quite a lot of freedom going up.

[104] But I think it's quite interesting because somewhere in the back of my mind, I knew at some point I was going to have to go and, you know, I have to get and learn or felt this kind of responsibility for an education.

[105] somewhere but I just wasn't ready you know and and and so I thought there was the there's what I should do and what I wanted to do I think and there's a little bit what I should do kind of came along and then in the end I sort of thought well actually I want some freedom want to explore I want to go on an adventure I want to do something different and so yeah so many of the guests that's it here including Jimmy Carr's very reminded me of him have that moment usually in their early 20s where they as you've perfectly described it, there's the thing they should do, usually what their parents want them to do, what societies told them to do, and what they want to do.

[106] And in Jimmy's case, it was like, quit everything and go and be a comedian, get getting paid no money, because that's what he wanted to do and take all those unpaid gigs.

[107] For you, you set off on a bike to France.

[108] That was all breaking out of Wales moment, right?

[109] Yeah, and I kind of got this, it didn't happen overnight, but slowly, but surely, I start to really, really get passionate about cycling like really the sport of cycling kind of it had the freedom maybe but it was a sport of suffering it was a sport of sacrifice it was it was a tough sport and i like that and i like the idea that you were there was only you you know this if you could you know it's like the head and heart really if you if you're intelligent and and and you could figure out how to train and then you had the heart and the commitment and a design a passion to suffer a little bit and how deep could you go You know, that attracted me to cycling.

[110] So if you were good, you were good.

[111] And if you weren't good, you weren't good.

[112] And then you played a lot of football and all the little junior teams and everything else who were growing up.

[113] And there you could have a great game and lose or you could be, you know, terrible and win.

[114] The team could win.

[115] And I kind of like the, you know, this idea that if what you do really counted in terms of your own performance, as it were, that sort of chined at me. And anyway, I kind of got this passion for, the tour of France and this sort of thing that was kind of happening somewhere in the world.

[116] And the more I looked at it, it sort of felt quite gladiatorial and the mountains.

[117] And, you know, it felt just epic, a three -week race.

[118] And all I wanted to do is go and see if I can watch this race.

[119] And I got a chance to go and I stood there and I got this passion for it.

[120] And in the end, I thought, right, I want to go and try and win that thing.

[121] And so I sort of said to my mum that, right, I'm going to, I'm just going to jack everything in.

[122] I'm going to go and go to France and see if I can become a professional cyclist.

[123] And she was most of her horrified, actually.

[124] But you can't.

[125] You know what are you thinking?

[126] You can't go.

[127] All this kind of stuff.

[128] And I said to my dad, I said, listen, I'm going to jack it all in.

[129] I'm going to go.

[130] And he was like, yes.

[131] Really?

[132] Loved it.

[133] Yeah.

[134] And that's all I needed to hear.

[135] You know, once I heard that, then I was like, right, it's okay.

[136] I'm going.

[137] And so I got a single ticket to Grenoble.

[138] And got my bike in a cardboard box.

[139] rucksack, it's 700 quid and got a ticket to Banga Station in North Wales and off I went I don't think I'd ever really kind of had to cross, remember having to cross London on the tube with my bike in a box and the rucksack, that was a real ordeal for me, got down to Dover, crossed on a ferry, got to Calais and I was sitting there and somebody came along and said, you know, do you want a coffee or whatever or drink in, you know, on the train?

[140] And it kind of dawned on me then.

[141] I thought, yeah, sure.

[142] I've got a clue what's going on here.

[143] I was trying to find out.

[144] I wanted to go to a place called Argentiere.

[145] That was my destination.

[146] And I didn't know if there was two.

[147] So there's two Argentin as it turns out.

[148] So I went, I was trying to ask this guy to buy ticket to Arjontier.

[149] And he was just being awkward.

[150] You know, he could see I couldn't speak French.

[151] And obviously he wasn't making much of an effort either.

[152] And then these two quite young guys came along.

[153] And they said, oh, can we help you?

[154] You know, we can speak French and English.

[155] I said, like, oh, thanks.

[156] So they helped out.

[157] It turned out they were Polish, and they were two lads trying to defect from Poland because we're still communist.

[158] And they were trying to get into university in Grenoble.

[159] And so the very first night I had in France, we slept head to toe, sleeping bags on this thing, and these two Polish, like they were petrified.

[160] And they were petrified.

[161] And they said any kind of steps or something come in, footsteps, they jump up, rise.

[162] They're like, we're going to get caught.

[163] Anyway, so I jumped on a train, six o 'clock in the morning, jumped on a train to where I thought I was going, I actually ended up in Switzerland.

[164] So that was a bit.

[165] Yeah, I was like, wow.

[166] By which time the fun had worn off, you know, I must admit.

[167] So I got the same train back to Grenoble again, spent my second night on the same platform, the same bench.

[168] And then eventually the next day got to where I wanted to go in Arjantier.

[169] And, whoa, that was a bit of an ordeal.

[170] But why were you going there anyway?

[171] What was the aim of when you arrived at that destination?

[172] What were you thinking?

[173] Well, I just wanted to be a, I wanted to be a professional cyclist, you know.

[174] I wanted to find a way of getting into a professional cycling team.

[175] And, you know, I think there's no, how do you do that?

[176] You know what I mean?

[177] Back in the day when Cycle was very much a niche sport in Britain, there wasn't any obvious kind of route.

[178] So the club structure, the amateur club structure in France was very, very strong.

[179] And they were like feeder teams, sort of professional teams.

[180] So if you get over there and get yourself in an amateur team.

[181] And if you're any good, you'd work your way up.

[182] You know, so I thought, right, that's what I'm going to do.

[183] Did you have a meeting arranged with an amateur team?

[184] No, no. So you just showed up.

[185] So I just went, yeah.

[186] And then I, so I looked for the end of a, I looked for, went to the end of a race, went until everybody arrived, you know, finished the race and they were all, the car, didn't have the buses back in those days.

[187] So the cars were there and they came.

[188] And so I looked around, chose the nicest kit, as you would.

[189] Chose the nicest kit.

[190] It seemed like a good start.

[191] And I went up to them and asked if I could race and they kind of, what?

[192] They were like, what?

[193] And kind of chuckled and they thought it was a bit odd.

[194] And then he sort of passed me on to the next team and the next team and the next team and eventually I spoke to one like little group and a guy came over and he said, oh look, we're, he spoke English and he said, we're from St. Etienne.

[195] And if you can get yourself over to Stetsian, we train us as a whole team together on Wednesday.

[196] He wrote me down on the address and said, right, come me at 9 o 'clock on Wednesday, you can come train with us.

[197] So I started training with them and that was it.

[198] I lived there for three years then.

[199] Three years?

[200] And eventually, you know, you admit that you realized at some point.

[201] you weren't going to make it.

[202] You weren't going to win the...

[203] Yeah.

[204] Yeah, that was a shame.

[205] But then I look back on it now, and I think if I don't know now, you know, people say, what would you change?

[206] You know, if I could go back in time, I think if I knew what I know now in terms of training and nutrition and everything else, you know, I'm pretty sure I could have done a much better job.

[207] But I decided, for some bizarre reason, I decided, I didn't want to eat, particularly didn't, wanted to really reduce my fat into, say you can just just eat carbohydrate and hardly any protein.

[208] And so I stopped eating meat.

[209] I became a vegetarian.

[210] And then I realized now I was just nailed all the time.

[211] So I never really optimised the chance that I had.

[212] Which kind of makes me think now when I get younger, you know, young, talented athletes or people want to try it out.

[213] You can't just leave them alone.

[214] You know, just talent alone not always going to get you there, is it?

[215] You know, and they need to be in the right environment, same as my education.

[216] when I was young growing up I'm a bright enough guy I think I just wasn't ready to learn I wasn't in the right environment to learn I could have learned but I didn't learn at the time and I kind of reflect quite a lot on that really now in terms of creating the right environments but to people to be able to just progress you know what's it take for a human being to progress and you know I think my role is to try and create those environments and support people to do that really and I think it's take a lot of learnings from that you know I want to get to some of those key learnings that you've had, to take a step forward in your story, you then off to go to university, which was actually quite surprising.

[217] You do a sports science degree for a couple of years?

[218] Yeah, it was early years of sports science.

[219] It was kind of developing, you know, and the idea of sports nutrition was developing, the idea of sports psychology was just developing.

[220] And I start to read around this.

[221] I thought, God, I love this stuff.

[222] I absolutely, I couldn't get enough.

[223] I couldn't get enough.

[224] So the idea of eventually when I realized there wasn't going to be good enough to, you know, make the top end of professional cycling.

[225] I thought, right, well, I'll go back now because I would really want to learn.

[226] And so I went back to university and I was just absolutely, wasn't interested in anything to do with, like, fresh as we, you're going to go now.

[227] I just wanted to learn and that was it.

[228] So I met every one of the lecturers, asked if I could have a meeting and said, right, I want to tell me how are you going to teach me. I want to make sure that I'll learn as much as possible, how are you going to do that?

[229] and of course I've gone back since and they're a bit full on your interest there and so I came out of that and I loved I absolutely loved every minute of being at university, I loved it I loved meeting other people I love people that got the same passion it was a topic that I just couldn't get enough of I loved the psychology and the sport psychology and I came out of all of that and really wanted to go in sort of pursue the sports psychology area but it just felt at the time it was too fluffy it was you know the top pro teams weren't really it's too like all too macho to talk about you know psychology and so it wasn't getting any traction at time so i thought god i'm not sure i could make a career out of this so i ended up like i worked a bit longer in um i went back in and worked um in the cycle industry and then i decided to go and do an MBA.

[230] I thought I don't know anything about business.

[231] I really don't know anything about business.

[232] So I thought I'd like to know about that.

[233] So I'm back to Sheffield Business School and did an MBA and same there.

[234] I just wanted to, I wanted to learn.

[235] So I think if you're motivated to learn and want to learn, it changes, something changes in your mind.

[236] It's amazing to hear that.

[237] Yeah, like absolutely something changed.

[238] If you can, I don't know, if you unlock the desire, you're not learning because it's a, not learning because you have to or it's not learning because it's a must -do kind of thing but you learn because you want to and then it the whole process life's learning isn't it life's all about learning really and and so I think if you can unlock that then then you're onto something and luckily I think I think I did and then eventually the first contact I had with the British Olympic program was back in 1997 with a guy called Peter Keene and Atlanta Britain won one gold medal I think in the entire Olympic Games which is ridiculously bad.

[239] I mean, yeah, it's so bad.

[240] It's like, I can't even imagine how that happened, you know, but they did anyway.

[241] And at that point, John Major bought in the national lottery with a view that half of the money, half of the profit was going to go into culture and the arts and the rest was going to go into sport.

[242] And the real kind of goal of sport was to get the country up the Olympic table, which was unheard of.

[243] You know, it's like they were all amateur governing bodies.

[244] It was like a dream scenario.

[245] And cycling was very, very fortunate that they had a guy at the time called Peter Keene, very, very bright guy, visionary guy.

[246] And he wrote a beautiful plan, an amazing, amazing plan.

[247] And I kind of met him in and around 1997.

[248] I got my own little consultancy business at the time.

[249] And I started to help out and I got more engaged.

[250] And I thought, God, this is a combination of everything I've done sort of in my life, really.

[251] You know, you've got the sporting side, the performance planning side.

[252] you've got the psychology of it all.

[253] It's new.

[254] It could be a first time ever kind of scenario.

[255] The ambition is amazing.

[256] And there's a bit of business wrapped in there as well, you know.

[257] So I just saw that and I thought, right, I'm getting my elbows out.

[258] I'm not missing that chance.

[259] You know, it's like I thought, right, this is my calling and I'm going for it.

[260] I love, so much of that I wanted to pick up on.

[261] The point you made first about learning, it resonates so strongly with me again.

[262] I was kicked out of school, but just exceptionally obsessed.

[263] with learning as an adult and it speaks to the fact that the reason my attendance was 30 % in school was I was being pushed to walk down an alley I didn't want to walk down.

[264] Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[265] You know what I mean?

[266] And everyone's unmotivated when you try and get them to do something that they intrinsically don't want to do, right?

[267] And this is, I think, a lot of the problem with the schooling system but when I, as you were talking, I was reflecting all these messages I get from kids who like label themselves as unmotivated but in whose eyes, right?

[268] In the eyes of their parents who want them to be a doctor or in the eyes of society that wants them to do a nine to five.

[269] But I reject the idea that they are unmotivated.

[270] A million percent.

[271] I couldn't agree more.

[272] I've worked with a lot of people over the years.

[273] And I think you've got to find out what's an individual's intrinsic motivate.

[274] What's driving somebody inside?

[275] What do they really want to do?

[276] And you've got to unleash that in the end.

[277] You know, that's what life's about, isn't it, really?

[278] There's nobody, there shouldn't be any, we shouldn't be pigeonholed and there shouldn't be lines and lanes.

[279] I'm very, very, very lucky that I try and get to help other people be the best version of themselves, basically.

[280] And you think, you know, when you no longer compete for yourself and you think, right, I'm going to be judged on somebody else's performance, that's what people judge me on.

[281] And they go, like, well, did somebody else win a race?

[282] Not me, I can't, you know, I'm never going to win a race.

[283] But it's like, did somebody else win a race?

[284] And then you realize, well, if I'm going to be judged on somebody else's performance, I better get pretty good at understanding how to optimise and help somebody be the best they could possibly be.

[285] And then you think, well, what does that look like?

[286] How do you, where's the, where's, what is that?

[287] You know, and that's where you think, well, let's take the human being as a thing.

[288] You think, how do you get help a human being be the best they could possibly be?

[289] Are there certain things that if you can generally get those things right, it helps an individual in the main be the best version of themselves but the first thing you're to ask is like is that person what is that person's internal intrinsic drive because if it's not aligned they're not really committed and really driven and excited to what you'd like them to be it doesn't matter how much you'd like them to be if they're not they're not and there's nothing you can do about that you know but if there's a little bit of a flicker of the light burning there you can turn that up I think you can turn it down you can very easily turn it off by mistake or deliberately if you're that way minded but I think you do the very essence of people achieving things is they've got to be driven or there's got to be a reward I mean avoiding you know avoidance is very very strong motivator as well I think and you know maybe I had to argue that maybe in my life I was avoiding failure or you know that rather than being dragged towards the positive emotion of winning you know the positive emotion of winning for me isn't that great unfortunately i wish it was but avoiding failure is massive driver for me so um and so you know either way you figure out what somebody's drive is and then you help then you think about what you need to do to create the environment around somebody to optimize what they're doing and then and then you've really got to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and forget yourself forget your preschool self really genuinely say right i'm going to stand in this person's shoes I'm going to try and see what life looks like for them and feel what life looks like for them and really understand regardless of what any preconceptions I might have what does that feel and look like and what do they need what would the best thing I could do what do they need to help or support the more you go through that the more you kind of recognise as we're all different but there are some common denominators deep down inside I think and if you take the time to listen to people they might not want to tell you first and foremost but if you dig away at it you know eventually people will tell you what works for them, what they like, what they don't like and if you listen carefully you know people give them a bit of ownership and they'll tell you you know and that is probably one of the most powerful drivers I think that exists really you know you can put a gun to somebody's head ask them to jump up and down they'll jump up and down and you cock the trigger and say jump higher, they'll jump higher, or they'll try to anyway, and then you put it away and you walk away.

[290] And they're not going to, that is not a pleasant experience.

[291] It's used a lot, and it's used a lot in sport, actually.

[292] And less so now, but certainly has been in the past.

[293] But your performance is going to be inconsistent, I think, through that.

[294] And it's certainly not going to be a very pleasurable experience.

[295] And I think by going down the route of trying to find people's carrots, as it were, I mean, you'll have known, I'm sure you've, I think you've interviewed Steve, hasn't you, Steve?

[296] Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's an amazing guy.

[297] I am, believable.

[298] And his work, I think, is just phenomenal and something I'm buying to.

[299] But I do believe that it's carrot on the stick.

[300] On that point of finding out what their true motivation is, what they truly want, and checking that it's aligned with yours as a coach or as a team, if you ask somebody, they'll typically give you the, what they think you want to hear, answer.

[301] So if I was sat in front of you and you, asked me and I was new to your team, I'd say, I want to be a world champion, because I think that's what you want to hear.

[302] How do you see past that?

[303] I'm asking this because a lot of people have people in their lives, whether it's a friend or a sibling or son or a daughter, who they're trying to motivate to be something and often failing because they want it more than that person wants it for themselves.

[304] How do you see past that?

[305] Is there a technique?

[306] Is it just intuitive?

[307] Well, I think you've got to, you know, as soon as I sit down in front of somebody and they think, okay, this guy's got some kind of influence over what happens to me, then it's biased immediately.

[308] Yeah.

[309] And, of course, if you don't recognize that, if I just take at face value what people are telling me now, then that's, it's naive, I think, really, and I think you've got to go beyond that, like you say, and I think most people will have a network, and you know, and you can identify, if you watch the spheres of influence or the kind of who's influencing who and who has good relationships with who, you know, if I ask you now what your drivers are in this scenario and in the scenario we're currently in, you'll kind of think about what you're going to say, really.

[310] Yeah, yeah.

[311] Whereas I think if you took, if I took, give me a couple of weeks, I think I could piece together slowly but surely by chatting to you, chatting to other people, asking the right questions, giving you some time, you know, different, different kind of environments and some formal, some informal, slowly but surely you could piece together a relatively good picture of where you think somebody's at.

[312] Is it a person who's driven by, you know, I like order and discipline and process, or is it somebody who wants harmony?

[313] Is it somebody who wants to be life and soul of the party and out there and express themselves?

[314] Or is it equally somebody who, you know, wants to please others.

[315] And if it is pleasing others and who is it, it's the parents.

[316] Quite often I see that, really.

[317] And then, you know, you just piece it all together.

[318] And once you have that, then you're armed with information.

[319] You're armed with something which is you should really.

[320] really then respond and think carefully about, you know, what's this person all about.

[321] You know, can you draw a map of somebody?

[322] Can you really map out somebody's drivers, who they are, what do you think their influences are, what they really want, what's there, you know, what's pulling them and what's pushing them?

[323] And I think when you get into that kind of realm of high performers and people who are really pushing themselves to extreme levels, there's something pulling or pushing them pretty hard.

[324] normally and trying to just understand that and dig a little bit around that at least like I say it gives you the you know I think it's an obligation for somebody in our kind of roles as it were to make that effort to make sure you do take the time to fully understand somebody have you encountered instances in your career where someone's got so much talent but they're just lacking in drive and no matter what you've done 100 % yeah and what do you do in those situations well in our world you wouldn't work with them you know I wouldn't work with them.

[325] I'd support them and be very, very, you know, not unpleasant or unkind or everything else, but it's not going to work.

[326] That's the, you know, you have to have, you have to have that commitment and that drive and, you know, that's got to be there.

[327] If that's not there, then don't go past square one, really.

[328] You know, and when you're young, you know, you can perform and get to a very high standard on your talent.

[329] But then when you get to the top of the top, as it were, and there's maybe five or six people who have this a similar level of talent and some can get the best out of themselves and get that a little bit.

[330] You know, it's like there's, you can get a normal kind of high level of performance and then every now and again you get this like discretionary level of performance that little bit on top thinking, wow, that was absolutely me or you are at your best.

[331] And we're not in the business of that, you know, the high level performance.

[332] We're in the business trying to get that discretionary performance as often as possible when it really matters.

[333] And that's what, you know, That's what we really got to think about.

[334] And it's unlikely that you'll get their own talent alone.

[335] And even in the most sort of out there sort of talent, you can be flamboyant or do the unexpected, et cetera, they've nearly all, they're all committed and very, very, very brought into and driven by what they're doing.

[336] That word commitment is the first letter in your acronym core, which is part it's a philosophy you're known for.

[337] What is this core philosophy?

[338] What is that acronym and what does this stand for?

[339] To be fair to, you know, I just mentioned Steve Peters.

[340] I think, you know, one of the great things I think that I've been very, very fortunate to have happened in my life was that we, I met Steve back in, I think it was 2002, something like, you know, around that.

[341] I was always into, you know, I like the psychology.

[342] Obviously, I'd studied psychology, but I couldn't quite, it wasn't quite input, output, enough.

[343] It wasn't, I don't know, it didn't feel quite solid enough at times.

[344] And then we had an athlete who had a bit of an issue and somebody within our medical team had been a student of Steve, the school medicine in Sheffield, and they said, well, we could ask this guy to come across and he did and he did this amazing piece of work with this athlete.

[345] I thought, wow, I've really got to meet this guy.

[346] And so I sat down with Steve and he's a psychiatrist, not a psychologist, obviously a forensic psychiatrist and he sat down and he said right well here's my mental kind of map as it were and this is how your brain works and this is the different parts of your brain think differently and you know you know you do realize that this different your blood goes to different areas and and that's all you'll be driven by emotion or logic or by past experiences etc and i was like oh okay this is really interesting and that one i liked about him he was like if you do this then that and you should do this not that.

[347] And he's quite prescriptive in a very neutral way, but quite strong.

[348] And I really like that.

[349] Really, really like that.

[350] So I thought, wow, this guy would be absolutely dynamite in sport.

[351] And so Steve was still working in the NHS, and he was actually working at Rampton at a time as well with, you know, the mass mood, and the psychopaths and all that.

[352] And so I try to persuade him and say, Steve, come on, you've got to come and work in sport.

[353] And eventually, you know, know, he did, to be fair.

[354] He came and worked full -time, and it was just an amazing period, really, because we sat down and said, right, forget cycling for a minute.

[355] Let's think about the human brain, the human being, and how do we create the best possible environment for people to perform?

[356] And that's where the core principle came from with Steve in the first instance.

[357] So it was like, you know, the serious commitment.

[358] So let's screen these people for commitment.

[359] And you do a commitment screen.

[360] And he'd ask people about their homework, how they did their homework.

[361] and what that was you know when people had to do something deliver on something he'd ask he'd interrogate them a little bit about that and then the oh of the core was for ownership and the idea that we we were human will perform better and respond better with a little bit of ownership over what they're doing so you know sport was very much a dictate and control kind of coaching model really and management model and he was very much of the you know very very strong that as a human we like to have a little bit of control of what's happening to us.

[362] We like to negotiate or have a little say, this works, that works.

[363] And that's a very powerful kind of construct to work with.

[364] The R was for responsibility and accountability.

[365] And, of course, we've all working professional jobs in the end, and we've all got accountability and responsibility in life.

[366] And so people need to be held accountable and responsible.

[367] And then the E was for excellence, but it's personal excellence.

[368] and as he used to joke about how to it should have been personal excellence but it sounded a bit like corpse so we stuck with core and so we got all the coaches in and said I bought this 100 % really really thought right we're going to do this and then we'll sort of use cycling as the kind of you know not it was it was the opportunity to do something different you know and I was absolutely sure really really sure it was the right thing to be doing and of course he was there to sort of coach and help and support.

[369] And so we've got the coaches in and said, right, guys, we're going to change the way we're working here.

[370] We're going to put the, at the time, actually, we termed it, going to take the crown of the heads of the coaches and put them onto the heads of the riders, and they're going to be the kings and queens of their own world, their own destiny, and we're going to support them in that.

[371] And it was just that slight change of emphasis, which, you know, a lot of the coaches through it.

[372] at Hansenier and well they'd be out of control they wouldn't turn up with the training and you know it was kind of an emotional response really and of course you know Chris Hoy and Vicki Pendleton and all these other you know all of the athletes who were with us at a time they want to perform for themselves yeah they weren't perform for a coach they weren't you know they might have a brilliant relationship but a coach but it was they were after their own performance or a team performance it wasn't done for the coach and it was a real I mean it sounds a bit obvious now I guess but at the time it felt like quite a big deal to be to be really empowering a group of athletes and yeah and off we went with that really and it was an exciting time one of the things that I've taken from that many things but one of the things that I've taken from that which is again feels really consistent throughout lots of things I've read about you is this idea of going back to first principles to make to create better solutions and I'll tell you the things that's three touch points where I've kind of, I've seen that in your philosophy.

[373] The first is you basically went down to the first principles of the human brain there and said, how does the human brain work?

[374] And let's treat the human brain in a better way outside of the conventional way of treating the human brain to get a better outcome.

[375] That's like, again, with first principles, it's a lot of work.

[376] No one wants to do at conventions, but see much easier.

[377] The second thing is just generally your attitude to breaking down what you are trying to achieve as a team into small sections.

[378] That's where I see the first principles thing.

[379] And the third thing was I read that you hired younger coaches into a team that weren't tainted with convention.

[380] And again, they're much easier to train in new ways.

[381] Is that?

[382] Yes, I think in the main, I think I do like to break things down into, you know, the smallest component parts, or first principles anyway, it's not copy and paste.

[383] Yeah.

[384] And I read a lot and I'm constantly kind of reading and listen to podcasts.

[385] I'm constantly taking information in.

[386] And I'll use some of things.

[387] the information, but I won't just copy and paste it.

[388] I won't just apply it.

[389] It's contextual.

[390] I'd like to understand what's going on behind it.

[391] I'd like to understand the theory and the thinking.

[392] It drives people mad, actually, because I can talk about methods and whatnot and models all day long, you know.

[393] But fundamentally, it's how I like to work.

[394] And I think it's like the true, tickets down to its kind of deepest, sort of simplest, level of understanding and then construct it relative to the context of a situation, how it could best apply to what you're doing, and take the time, you know, take the time and effort and the energy and the, you know, it's like to think about it, and I'll draw it, I'll draw nonstop by it, so I don't write so much, I draw, and then I'll cover my office wall and like sticky plastic stuff on the wall and draw it all over the walls.

[395] Looks like a madman's in there, I must admit, but it's how always, what I like to do.

[396] and it's how I work.

[397] It drives a couple of people I work with a bit crazy, but I think they used to, by now.

[398] But I do like to do that.

[399] And then if you get a real understanding for something, then you can see whether you really agree with the fundamental principles and either go with that or question it and develop your own ideas.

[400] And like development, if you're going to develop your own ideas, do it sort of with originally, as it were, rather necessarily just kind of taking something as well, and just applying it, you know, I'm not be a bit uncomfortable with that, I think.

[401] One of the things that definitely felt very original when I was reading about your philosophy is this idea of forgetting about the results, because thinking about the results or the outcome of your performance can reduce the chances of success in that performance.

[402] That's very unusual because in teams, in competition and business, we think about the result, we think about closing the deal or, you know, and what that will mean and we kind of imagine ourselves, in that moment of getting the medal around our neck or that business deal won.

[403] Why is that not a good idea?

[404] Well, if an event happens or something happens, the first thing that's going to happen to you, without you even knowing is you're going to have an unconscious, emotional reaction to it.

[405] And it's emotion.

[406] You're not thinking it through.

[407] It's just purely emotion.

[408] And that's going to be, you know, either it's sort of a fight, flight, freeze response, really.

[409] But that emotional response will happen quicker than you know it before you can go in and get any logic, or get any rationale into it.

[410] And of course, in any kind of situation like, you know, what could be perceived as a threat state where you're putting yourself in some kind of threatening scenario, a bit of damage my pride or, you know, what happens to people, they start thinking, well, what happens if I win?

[411] Why must have to lose?

[412] Why must have looked ridiculous?

[413] I don't want to look ridiculous.

[414] I'm under threats.

[415] And that then becomes, you know, very easily to get emotionally hijacked by that.

[416] So then you're purely wrung on an emotion, which is inconsistent, it's illogical, you know, it's not a, it's not a good way for you to be basing, it's not a good place for you to be basing your behaviour.

[417] But if you understand that and you think, okay, well look, I understand that, it's normal that I'm going to put myself in a threatening scenario.

[418] So if I worry about, let my emotion take over and I worry about what happens if I succeed, what happens if I fail, what happens if this, what happens if that, then it's actually pointless exercise and if you can train slowly recognize and train your mind to go okay I know what's happening here this is just emotion I'm going to put it to one side now then let me separate this whatever I'm doing out into two things we can have a dream I want to win the tour of France it's a dream my ability to win it or our ability or anybody else is to win it is I'm going to do my absolute best to try and win it but the people are going to try and stop me and other people are going to try and to do something it's stuff beyond our control that can impact on that.

[419] So if you set your goal as I'm going to win, you're going to agitate nonstop because it actually is out of your control.

[420] Whereas if you set your dream and say, this is what I'd really, really like to happen.

[421] I'll go all in.

[422] I'll do everything I can.

[423] I'm fully committed to that.

[424] But let me break it down into targets, which is, well, I could get to the ideal weight.

[425] I could do the proper training.

[426] I could do the, you know, follow a nutritional plan.

[427] That's going to give me the optimal energy and, you know, I can train my tactics.

[428] I can be, really work hard to get a fantastic team around me, build good rapport, build confidence in my teammates, these are all things that you can do.

[429] And so if you say, okay, let's leave the dream over there for a while, but I'm going to go after the things I can do and you base your plan around the things that you can actually control and do, you'll be on fire, you'll be on fire, you'll be absolutely on fire.

[430] And the dream might happen and it might not.

[431] And you'll be absolutely, oh, you know, delighted.

[432] best thing ever if it happened and if it doesn't then you might be absolutely devastated but you've got to leave it as a dream and you've got to understand that actually worrying about the consequence of an event is detrimental to the process and a performance and the chances of you achieving that event so you park that go after your targets and go right i'm going process not outcome and we talk a lot about process not outcome and when you catch yourselves you know it's emotion in the end so of course we do get hijacked and of course we do get fear of or a bit panicked and you've got to have a system whereby you can talk to yourself a little bit you can bring yourself background and focus on the now and the process of now rather than worrying about the future and then you can come back and concentrate on the process get back into now and you know some of the athletes would have a routine where they'd tie the salute undo and tie the shoelaces again or they do they'd have a little you know a little process that they'd tap into and they'd go into that into that and bring their mind back into the present and stop worrying about the future and of course the penalty kicks the best example yeah that's what i was thinking about rinaldis did there yeah i'm sure they they bag a hundred percent in training yeah exactly in the euro's final exactly you know and if you take the crowd out take a penalty those guys are so accurate and the you know signal from the brain down into the muscle to contract in a certain way that happens and the accuracy and the then the repeatability of that is is absolutely massive put a crowd in there and what changes nothing changes physically it's all between your ears and so how can you train that you know and mental skills can be trained just as much as you know we all know that but we want to get fit and strong and you go to the gym and you know that you're going to overload your body and you give it time to adapt and it's adaptation it's going to make a little bit stronger and it's the same with a mind you know you can train your mind and and I think that's what certainly working with Steve was was an I don't know as well as I think probably the biggest item for most people is it gives you a once you realize you've got like an emotional brain and a logical brain and a you know a bit of a memory computer side going on then then it gives you insight into yourself and why you are behaving and feeling like you are and some of the assumptions you're making about other people then you've got to start with yourself first if you can get that little bit of insight why do I feel how I'm feeling why do I respond like I do what triggers me what's my best self look like and what's my sort of you know, not the best self.

[433] Like, why, why am I different?

[434] Why sometimes I might behave in this kind of, you know, this second or a shadow version of myself?

[435] And why are someone, someone in my best self?

[436] What's happening there?

[437] Why can't I just be my best self all the time?

[438] Surely that must be doable.

[439] So take a bit of time to understand it and pick it.

[440] And some people just maybe haven't been educated.

[441] I certainly wasn't until really I sort of stopped and started to look at this stuff.

[442] And then you realise, I think, wow, a lot of my behaviour, a lot of my life was driven by emotion.

[443] It wasn't driven by the real me who could be calm and logical and think things through and quite, you know, I have a lot of passion and feelings and caring and yet at times I could be something else, you know.

[444] And I think understanding that's fundamental, I think.

[445] I don't think there's any excuse for that.

[446] No, okay.

[447] Both points sounded very similar, in fact, because on one hand you're saying, with your goals, only go after the things you can control, like really focus on those things.

[448] And in the same way, when we're talking about personal responsibility of self you're saying you can't control other people so yeah but the thing that you know maybe you do have control over in your life is your behavior how you act how you conduct yourself and then kind of leave the rest to well i think you don't understand how other people are responding and how they're feeling so you can accept that of somebody's um you know somebody's in a very well there's two things really i think first and foremost ambition is a big thing not to forget you know what's your level um you know you can be incredibly ambitious why can't we'd be the best in a world at something?

[449] Why can't be the first to do something?

[450] What's stopping us doing something that nobody else has ever done before?

[451] Nothing as far as I can see.

[452] You know, so I think there's a, it's, you know, you've got to have that ambition, enthusiasm, and the belief we can do whatever we want to do, you know, and really stretch that.

[453] And then I think the next bit, really, the target is more like the how to get there.

[454] Yeah.

[455] It's more like the boring stuff to get there, you know, so it's like head and heart, really.

[456] And I think that if you understand yourself then you should be able to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and if they're having a tough time or if somebody else is angry or there's something else going on with them you know rather than just dive in and respond to the behavior you see in a face value why not stop and think about a little bit and is this person in trouble what's causing this where are they coming from what's going on you know trying to understand it and if they're just responding emotionally to something and you allow yourself to immediately respond emotionally back it doesn't really get anywhere you know so so you'd better hold back and wait and find out and try, anyway.

[457] Not always easy, but sometimes trying.

[458] No, no. I struggle with that.

[459] Yeah.

[460] I struggle with that, especially being in an environment where my time is so, feels so precious, right?

[461] It's always, there's so many things I could be doing, and you're exactly the same.

[462] I know, I know people that work with you.

[463] I know you're a very, very busy person.

[464] So it's tough in the moment to stop and pause and to have patience when the rest of my life is run on, like, efficiency.

[465] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[466] You know what I mean?

[467] It's difficult.

[468] Yeah, I guess in my world, you know, I'm out to try and help people.

[469] And I do push people.

[470] And we've got high standards.

[471] You know, you do want a level of commitment.

[472] I don't like laziness, for example.

[473] I just can't, that would really hurt.

[474] That gets me, you know.

[475] But then I have to manage it and think, okay, well, if that's what they want, there's no problem.

[476] This isn't the environment for them, you know.

[477] But in the main, I think, understanding challenges and setting standards and boundaries and working to all of that is important.

[478] You built teams and developed teams that won over and over and over again in the same way that Sir Alex Ferguson did.

[479] I'm a Manchester United fan, so I was lucky enough to be, you know, it's not going so well lately, but in that era to watch our team win over and over again.

[480] And the thing that really I find, because I just thought that was normal growing up, that my team wins all the time.

[481] The thing I find amazing now when I look back on it is how he managed to really, invent those teams, but also to get the same team to win again.

[482] And this idea of like, where is your motivation after victory?

[483] And how do you get a team that's just one and then they win again?

[484] And I win again.

[485] To win again?

[486] Where do they find the motivation?

[487] They've still on the podium.

[488] They've had the moment.

[489] What does that come from?

[490] Yeah, it's a great question that one.

[491] And I think, and I think credit to Sir Alex and the work that he did.

[492] I mean, you know, I think now, looking back, there are those long -serving successful managers who like you say once it's happening is an era and nobody really kind of thinks too much it's just the norm but then when you realize it's not actually the norm at all you know it's something very very special going on and I think the I think success is interesting and in terms of what it does to people and you know I think in sport we're kind of more geared to failure really you lose more than your win normally and you know we kind of recalibrate the goals does yourself down and redo your plan and off you go again but when you succeed all of a sudden not many people have a plan for success you know what i mean so you succeed nobody's got nobody wants to tempt fate i guess but not many people have a plan for success and it does it does impact on people massively in terms of their expectation on themselves on there in terms of their hunger going forward you know it does it does impact people in different ways and of course you get more you probably get financially better off your your position society changes you know who you are you become Celebrity, whatever, whatever, whatever.

[493] And, of course, all that can change and impact on your drive and your hunger.

[494] And I think fundamentally, that's the bit that's incredible about the people who stay at the top for a long time.

[495] It's not really the reward, you know, what they're getting sort of financially, you know, all those are the kind of sort of trappings of success.

[496] I don't think that's what driving them.

[497] You know, there's something else deeper down driving those people forward and they'll just keep going and going and going.

[498] And I thought what Alex Ferguson did ever so well was he, there's always a challenge with teams when you've got a generation who grow together and they come together and you'll have a two, three, four years of amazing success with a group who've bonded and they're on a journey together.

[499] And of course then he starts to get towards the end of that and at what point you bring young talent in and let some of the more established talent go, you know, and there's a transition.

[500] And he did that ever so well.

[501] He really did that ever so.

[502] well and we met and chatted a couple of times about that is when when i was younger up in a velodrome in Manchester he'd pop over to to the belladrome and we'd sit there and chats and that was always one of the big things i wanted to ask him you know it's like okay what are you watching what are you seeing why are you doing this what you know what have you seen there that makes you think that's the right time to change and you're bringing this youngster in here you know and he'd say you know he'd quite often say that um you know people get a bigger voice they get a biggest standing in the dressing room, they might start to second, you know, I'm not so sure about that cafe, you know, and they'd have an influence and, you know, there'd be the celebrity, the media and other things going on, et cetera, et cetera.

[503] And definitely sooner or other than later, that would be right, okay, off we go, and he'd change it.

[504] Listening to him talk about it, he knew exactly what he's doing to be fair to him, and he was a master at it.

[505] You've got to have had moments like that in your career where you see that culture at threat or at risk because of an individual.

[506] I've had them in my business too.

[507] And in those moments, very early in my career, I would try and, I guess, look past, when I was a bit more naive in business, look past it or put things in place to try and mitigate the impact that one individual, the negative impact that one individual was having on the overall culture.

[508] And as I got older, I realized that I just needed to address the situation, ASAP, before it becomes like a virus and spreads, right?

[509] Yeah, yeah.

[510] What do you do in that situation where you see an individual in your company?

[511] It's a tough one.

[512] It really is.

[513] I mean, it's an easy one to talk about.

[514] It's a very difficult one to do, particularly when, you know, that might be your best player, your best rider, your best performer.

[515] And all of a sudden you've got the hitting the numbers and the behaviour is not great.

[516] And then you've got to ask yourself, well, we have to just winning, and it doesn't really matter, just win.

[517] And you kind of manage the impact of that across everybody.

[518] or does behaviour and conduct and culture matter and you want to make sure that you actually have some cultural values that you're going to stand by come what may and of course those real moments when they do arrive and you've got to address it they're very very stressful I kind of get very introspective and look at myself in the mirror and think it through and think it through and everybody who works for me and say it takes me time to make a decision and I think because I think of every permutation and I think it through so much emotionally I fully I don't think I can't actually I'm just so engaged with those things that I've really really got to think carefully about them and I've had to make a couple of pretty big decisions along along those lines and in the end I thought right what do I believe in is it a popular decision is it a performance decision in my world you know there's like we're trying to win here or do we want to keep people happy or where do we go and you need some kind of you need to establish your own right what do I believe in and without really figuring out what you believe in you're always going to be caught in a storm otherwise and it's always going to be mentally excruciating I think because you're never quite sure so I like to anchor myself in right what are my values what I believe in and how does that apply to this situation and then okay well that's it and if it goes wrong I always want to be able to look back and said okay well I make decisions based on my principles I didn't make decisions based on that particular moment doesn't matter how difficulty was and I'll stick to that now but I've had one quite recently actually or two actually in the last two to three months which were pretty challenging decisions like that and on both occasions I went right back and I tend to I don't know it's a good thing for the people around me but I got a few you know people I really value their opinion, you know, and they're sort of like, you know, I'll chat away to them and I'll ask them questions and I think sometimes I think, okay, I'm going to make that decision or he's asking me to make this decision.

[519] And what I'm trying to do is just kind of run through my thought processes and sounding out, sounding out, sounding out, sound it out, sound it out, until I get really pre -anchored onto, no, I know what I really feel now.

[520] And then I'll make the decision immediately.

[521] I won't hesitate then.

[522] But to get to that point takes me a bit of time.

[523] And I need to talk about it to somebody.

[524] I need to, I need to express it vocally, I think, to really make sure I understand what I'm thinking because if I can't explain it to somebody I'm maybe not quite there.

[525] So just thinking about it in my own head or even writing it down for myself on big stuff if I like to try and be able to explain it to somebody to then understand fully that I really, if I can explain it to somebody, I think I've pretty much got it.

[526] Whereas if I just, in my head, explain it to myself.

[527] It's what the hell I'm talking about, you know?

[528] So, yeah, it's quite an agonising process.

[529] But you just need your principles in the end.

[530] You need a decision -making framework.

[531] Yeah, based on principles.

[532] Yeah.

[533] So, because everyone can relate to that, even if they've not been in your position.

[534] I mean, we all have, we all face really tough moments, but we kind of arrive at that, that pass, and we have to decide if we're going left or right.

[535] And the worst possible thing is often making no decision, right?

[536] Making no decision or making a decision that you thought was the right decision because you thought it was the right thing to do, but it wasn't actually what you thought.

[537] And I think we're always fearful of the consequences of our decisions.

[538] I think quite often, you know, I say to our guys sometimes, okay, imagine, let's imagine we've got a problem and take away, you know, we're going to have a group discussion about something, and imagine that all of our riders didn't have emotions, they were just robots, and what would you do?

[539] And they go, oh, simple, well, you just do this, this and this.

[540] Okay, so now we put the emotions back in, and that's, that's, what's that doing to you?

[541] Why is that changing you're thinking?

[542] And then, of course, you don't, you know, got people's feelings and you might have conflict, you know, somebody might not be happy and, you know, that then impacts because we're trying to second guess the emotional response of a group or we're trying to second guess how somebody might feel or whether they're going to come at you or it creates conflict or, you know, and so I think it's every now and again, I go, right, okay, let's just up the robots, what would we do, what would do the best thing to do?

[543] And they go, simple, we'll just do this.

[544] And so that's one thing.

[545] I think if you think that right, the consequence of whatever would decided about, nothing bad happens.

[546] Nothing bad happens.

[547] Absolutely.

[548] There is, so you can make any decision you want and nothing happens.

[549] Nothing bad happens.

[550] What would you do?

[551] And people's mind freed up immediately and they'll make a good decision probably.

[552] But it's fear or it's the, it's the, it's the consequence of this might happen or that might go wrong or this or that or the other.

[553] They might not be happy or they might not be happy and it impacts your decision making really.

[554] So you get all these biases, is these emotional biases all the time.

[555] And don't get me wrong, sometimes a gut feel is a good thing, you know.

[556] So, but on the other hand, I think if you strip out the consequence of like nothing bad would happen and also people's other people's emotions, what would you do?

[557] Most people get pretty quickly to where they'd want to be, you know.

[558] I just did it then in my head about some of the big decisions I have in my life.

[559] I thought, well, if I was dealing with robots and I could just shuffle things without consequence, what would I do?

[560] Exactly.

[561] And the answer you're seeing there is probably the right thing for the objective.

[562] Exactly.

[563] But maybe, well, you could also say, well, there are emotional consequences which might hinder the objective.

[564] So if I really annoy this person or if I upset the balance here, then the objective is compromised.

[565] Yeah, exactly.

[566] Yeah, it just helps a little bit.

[567] In the end, you know, it's like, poor, it's like taking out.

[568] If you've got bad tooth, you've got to take it out.

[569] I might as well take it out quick.

[570] Yeah, exactly.

[571] You know, it's going to hurt just as much in a couple of months' time, you know, so much.

[572] as well take it out now.

[573] Marginal gains, do you know what?

[574] I have to say this podcast is doing very well.

[575] I think it's maybe number one in Europe now, but I have to give you a lot of credit for that because I think my team are sick and tired.

[576] I can see them laughing over there.

[577] A sick and tired of me saying this phrase, we've got to find the 1%.

[578] And for us in what we do with this podcast, I mean, it's in my businesses as well, but in this podcast it means like really giving a F about everything from the audio to these, eight cameras that are on us.

[579] Nobody else does it like we do it with eight cameras and the robots and the thumbnail, the title, the way you were picked up today to how you leave to really make, even when you walk in, we were a little bit slow on it today, but the music to create the right atmosphere, the lighting, we've installed these blinds here because we're trying to, we want you looking at me because it's a better, all of these small things.

[580] And I never heard that directly from you, but I heard it indirectly by you.

[581] As in my friends would tell me about this thing called marginal gains from this guy, called David, David Breltswood, and I, like, adopted it as a personal philosophy.

[582] Maybe I adopted it as a personal philosophy, or it made my existing philosophy make sense.

[583] Okay, yeah, yeah, probably.

[584] Either one, you know, sometimes you hear an I do, and you go, that's a great way to communicate.

[585] Somebody articulates it, but you articulated it for me. And so thank you for that.

[586] But I guess my question, because that has genuinely really helped me communicate why small things are so important.

[587] But as it relates to marginal gains, how marginal?

[588] Oh, good question.

[589] And how marginal was that?

[590] Smile's marginal.

[591] Sorry?

[592] A smile's marginal.

[593] Oh, I like that.

[594] Probably your best marginal gain ever.

[595] Smile at people more often.

[596] Cheapest and easiest.

[597] Yeah, exactly.

[598] And people like it.

[599] People smile back.

[600] I wonder what the trajectory, how that impacts your trajectory through life if you just smiled more.

[601] A lot.

[602] I had to thought so.

[603] You know, you'd be more approachable.

[604] People think it's a friendly person, you know, just in the main, you know, smile at people, smile each other, say hello, and walk past.

[605] You know, you can't be all so consumed in your head that you're walking around with your head down and ignoring people, which was very easy to do.

[606] You know, somebody says hello, oh, hello.

[607] That's a marginal gain right there.

[608] People don't value the small stuff, though.

[609] They focus too much on the big stuff, right?

[610] Well, I think you've got to get the basics right.

[611] You know, I think the marginal gains concept came about originally is when we started out with the Olympic programme and the Olympic kind of medals were so far away.

[612] You know, it seemed like such a mountain and they were so, so in the distance and untouchable.

[613] They're thinking like, wow, how on earth, what are we going to do to get from where we are now to get up there?

[614] And as we kind of, as we started working through, you know, how we're going to approach this, it occurred to me that there was a couple of things really.

[615] One was there's obviously the fundamentals, the basics of any kind of performance, really.

[616] And if you get the fundamentals right for a consistent period of time, it's going to get you a long way.

[617] it really is so that that's there's no you know that that that's important but the um the whole idea of marginal gains really starts to start to think right okay so we're we're a pretty long way off up there but so what could we do what can we believe in how do we get some momentum how do we get some contagious enthusiasm of course people like a little bit of progression you know and if we just aim for perfection perfection was so far away that there's no point aim if because we're going to fail every day so I thought well let's have a little progression.

[618] Just a little, little bit of progression.

[619] And I'll make you feel good, you know.

[620] So let's identify where we go.

[621] And are we doing the basics?

[622] Right, then, what could we do by next week that we're not doing this week?

[623] What little things could we do?

[624] There's a million things that could impact a cycling performance.

[625] Could we, I don't know, change our diet to be slightly more optimal than it is this week and do that by next week?

[626] And everybody goes, yeah, we could do that?

[627] Okay, what else could we do?

[628] Could we do more in the gym?

[629] Could we do?

[630] Could you change your attitude slightly, could be really kind of think about, just even engage with thinking about your attitude once a day.

[631] Could you do that?

[632] Yeah, we could do that.

[633] Okay, so off we go.

[634] And then you get to next week and did we do all that stuff?

[635] Yeah, we did actually.

[636] We haven't moved a long way, but I tell you what, it felt pretty good.

[637] What are you doing?

[638] I did this.

[639] Oh, what are you doing?

[640] I did this.

[641] And all of a sudden, you can't start with getting this idea of you make, you're on the move.

[642] And one of the things about marginal gains is you're on the move.

[643] And we like progress.

[644] we like to feel, wow, I feel quite good about myself today.

[645] I did X probably means nothing to anybody else and probably, you know, very unique to me, but it meant something to me, you know.

[646] And I feel quite good about that.

[647] And so I can do that again tomorrow.

[648] And small, small step stick.

[649] Whereas you're trying to do something big, you can go to something big for a little while.

[650] We all go to the gym in January now in a couple of months, a couple of weeks time.

[651] We'll go full gas in the gym and then course by February or mid -February, we'll stop again.

[652] generalization but you know what i mean and um and why is that you know whereas uh we're trying to make too big a change that's not sustainable and and it's it's it's quite rare that you can make major change and make it sustainable but it's quite easy to make small incremental change and make them stick and it's the stickability over time i think which makes the the big difference and it's as much psychological as it's anything else and if there's a group who buy into right let's look of the little things you know let's look at the difference let's look at the you know you're set up in here like the music and everything once you start doing that everybody's on the you know getting quite excited yeah that's what makes us different and then somebody's going to go well we could have that picture instead of that picture or we could do this instead of that and it feels good and by virtue of the fact that you're all going you're on it and you're enjoying it and there's a bit of energy about it then other ideas will come to the surface and you'd be more open to adopting them and people talk about it You know, we're on the move.

[653] We're changing.

[654] We're doing all these little things because we can be asked to do the little things that other people can't be asked to do.

[655] And that makes a difference.

[656] That makes you a winner, in my opinion.

[657] And I might say that quite often in our team.

[658] You know, we'll be working late.

[659] And I said, all right, guys, let's just all get together for a minute.

[660] The reason we've been good, the reason we're good is we can be asked to do all these little things that all these other teams are now locked up.

[661] They've gone to bed.

[662] They're in no hotel.

[663] They can't be bothered to do this.

[664] We can.

[665] And it matters to us.

[666] That's what we're all about now.

[667] Let's keep going.

[668] And it works.

[669] It works.

[670] 100 % it works, it's been in 20 years.

[671] Yeah, I know, yeah.

[672] And it's as much about that kind of enthusiasm and a positivity about embracing.

[673] A change isn't a chore.

[674] Improving isn't a chore.

[675] If it's a chore, it's a bit like I was saying, about education.

[676] You know, if what you're trying to achieve as a chore, then that's a challenge.

[677] How do you make something, how do you change somebody, or reframe something into a little bit?

[678] That's not a chore.

[679] Or something that actually can know over there and think I'm going to reframe that into a positive.

[680] and then you'll stick with it.

[681] You know, feel good about yourself in the end.

[682] If we feel good about ourselves, we're going to be happier, we're going to be more engaged, I'll be more willing to make more change if we feel good about ourselves.

[683] And that was where sort of marginal games coming from.

[684] And I was lying on my floor, I said, when I really have to think, I did this crazy thing where I used to do my homework lying on the floor as a kid.

[685] And now when I really, really want to think, sort of really think about something, get big sheets of paper, tend to line on the floor and write on the floor.

[686] that.

[687] And marginal gains came from economics really with marginal costing.

[688] That's where I was reading all about that and about little kind of incremental gains.

[689] And I thought, actually, hmm, if you aggregate all of these marginal gains, maybe you get a big gain.

[690] But conceptually, it's kind of like, yeah, this is worth a go.

[691] And off we went.

[692] I always reference to compounding interest as well.

[693] It's like it feels like the same thing, right?

[694] Exactly, exactly.

[695] You get 1 % more a year.

[696] look what I often like whip out the compounding interest calculator in Google and I'm like just change it by 1 % and see what it looks like in 20 years yeah and the graph is just in a completely different place yeah and that's another really good way to get people to believe in this invisible force that you know is compounding for or against you yeah these 1 % yeah yeah yeah time because you know getting 10 % interest on a million for 30 years versus getting 11 % exactly ridiculously different at the end of that compounding cycle You sound like, I mean, you've described yourself as being obsessed.

[697] You sound like you're pretty obsessed with what you do.

[698] Yeah, I suppose I am.

[699] Yeah.

[700] What's the cost of that obsession?

[701] Well, I think, you know, I've pretty much kind of put everything I've got into what I do, really.

[702] And that means currently I'll spend 220 days a year, you know, at races and, you know, a long time on the road.

[703] And that does come at a cost, I guess, you know.

[704] Yeah, it's hard to get out of it, I think.

[705] I don't know if it's obsessive or not.

[706] I suppose, you know, I've obviously got merely my daughter who I love, absolutely adore her, love it to bits.

[707] And, you know, we've spent, I guess, since she's born, I've always been, you know, involved in sport.

[708] and at some point soon I'd like to think right I'm going to stop and really spend time more time together that would be nice and yet I think if I was thinking of why am I doing all of this I think a lot would be you know I'd like her to be happy I'd like her to have whatever whatever she can have really and yeah it's a tough balance and act that one that doesn't come easy to me I can tell I was just trying to visualize you sat on a beach with your cigar with no work, no sports.

[709] Yeah.

[710] It sounds more like...

[711] It's a bit of a struggle.

[712] Yeah, I think I would.

[713] I think I'd...

[714] I would like to just, I think, have a period where I just maybe just switch off.

[715] You know, I haven't had a holiday for a long time.

[716] And I've had a few health issues, obviously.

[717] I had an issue with my heart this year and I have a cancer.

[718] And that kind of forced me to stop a little bit.

[719] But then I got back as soon as I could and carried on.

[720] on.

[721] So I think I'd like, yeah, I would like to just at some point learn to maybe take time out and enjoy the colour of life a little bit more and various things in life.

[722] But, yeah.

[723] You mentioned that getting news that, I mean, we all hope to never get up about ourselves or our loved ones, which is that you had cancer.

[724] Now, that's something you can't control.

[725] No, that was a shock, I must say.

[726] That was a real shock.

[727] I wasn't expecting it at all.

[728] I ride my bike I train hard and I ride my bike a lot look after myself and I was very fit and then I start to get these bouts of fatigue more than anything and it was a really weird kind of you know you race every day you're moving every day and I think people see the sport on telly they don't see the rigour of all the travel and all the movement and the early mornings of late nights and you know you're going to race for a month a three week race you go there a week early And you nail, you know, halfway through.

[729] And, of course, then you've got to really dig in.

[730] So you're tired a lot of time.

[731] But I started getting these bouts of fatigue, which, just like somebody pulled, literally, taking my battery out.

[732] And I'd, oh, I could feel it coming on.

[733] And then I just couldn't function.

[734] And then I went for a check and I did a blood test.

[735] And then, you know, my PSA had gone up.

[736] And so I said, I better go for another check.

[737] And said, oh, God, you know, I'll be all right.

[738] And then didn't bother.

[739] And then eventually I did.

[740] And then they said, yeah, it took around and said, right, you better come and see me straight away, and that was it.

[741] I thought it was quite a big deal at the time, but then I moved on.

[742] I don't dwell on it.

[743] I don't think about it much.

[744] I like the sort of tough times.

[745] Don't last tough people do, you know, and I just thought, right, that's it, done.

[746] I'm not going to dwell on this.

[747] I'm going to move on.

[748] And that's what I did, really, as quick as I could.

[749] But those moments give you a different type of perspective on what matters, right?

[750] Or you have like a kind of an existential moment of...

[751] Yeah.

[752] You think about, oh my God, the tectonic plate of my health is something that can...

[753] Yeah, very much so, yeah.

[754] You wouldn't even consider the thought of it.

[755] No. No, 100%.

[756] And absolutely, you're spot on with that.

[757] You know, you realize, right, okay, we're not here forever.

[758] 100%.

[759] This is true for everybody, isn't it?

[760] You know, and they kind of, when you're younger, it's one of those things.

[761] You hear older people say, whatever.

[762] But then you have the dawning or the realisation, right, I'm not here forever.

[763] So then you think, okay, what's important?

[764] What, you know, is it like?

[765] to come back, you know, what time I've got left and all that kind of stuff.

[766] And, um, and you start to think about that.

[767] And, uh, so then you start to think even more, you know, a lot of people talk to you about, you know, living in the moment.

[768] Of course, you've got a plan for the future.

[769] You can't just ignore the future.

[770] Because we're all, we're all better in the future, aren't we, you know, it's trying to get fitter or whatever, whatever.

[771] And that's, of course, today, thinking about doing something today for your current self, but for your future self.

[772] And you're thinking of you're a future self when we diet or train or you're not, it's not going to happen now so your mind is on your future self and to what extent you're worried about your future self and the consequences of things happening rather enjoying the here of now and i think that really does bring it home in terms of to what extent am i enjoying the present and living in a present and what stands am i just going to keep on going and and sort of sacrificing for my future self when my future self is never going to arrive you know and that's a bit of an odd question to sit and contemplate for a while it's a reality check to spend any time in hospital isn't you know but equally there's some amazing people working in there and it's just yeah i was blown away by that actually did steve peters speak to you through this period at all oh yeah i speak to steve i just i mean i love steve i must say he's um i think you had fran miller on on as well and she'll say the same i'm sure and a lot of people who we worked with with steve would say you know he's been he's a game changer for us and uh whenever i'm worried i'm not sure about something I'm kind of no what he's going to tell me but I still like to hear it anyway so I chatted to him then and about how to what to deal with it's upset I didn't like it that it's upset it's upset Millie I think and I didn't like that you know I didn't like the idea that she was worried and so that was quite I wanted to make sure that I dealt with that properly but then equally life's for living you know and you think okay well here I am I'm still here and I'm going to make the most of this you know and I'm going to enjoy it a little bit more and stop you know worrying and thinking and you know constantly this this idea of chasing and doing something for the next event and it's like boys chill out a little bit and enjoy the things that you like doing and in the end like most people there are things I like around my bike I like like being out and beautiful roads on my bike.

[773] I like, I like socialising the people.

[774] I'm not a big, kind of big gathering person.

[775] I'm a, you know, a smaller group of people and I've got some amazing, you know, people and friends.

[776] And I don't know, I just like the simple things in life, really, but really, really taking them in.

[777] Acceptance.

[778] When reading and hearing how you dealt with that situation, I think the really powerful thing that I kind of got from that was getting to that point of accepting the situation as fast as you can.

[779] Yeah, good point, yeah.

[780] And I know it's a bit cheesy as well, but we talk about, yeah, it's a bit of a cheesy phrase, but the whole idea of, you know, when you're under pressure and you're really in a moment of real, you know, okay, the heat's on here, you know, the idea of instead of sort of trying to resist and be like a stick and kind of bending, bending and snapping, just think of yourself as bamboo and just bend.

[781] And you know for, well, that once this moment's past, you're going to snap back up.

[782] you're going to be okay and so we talk a lot about bending like bamboo not not a lot not bending like a stick you know not snapping and just just bend like bamboo and we're in a bit when we're in difficult moments we go it just bent we're just bending like bamboo pass he'll pass and and sure enough most times it does we worry about stuff that never happens don't we always we worry about massively about stuff that never actually happens and and they're also so it brings all of that kind of of home, you know, it resonates after.

[783] And it's still so much joy from our present, right, when we're thinking about all that could go wrong.

[784] And then as you've highlighted with your theory of focusing on the control of all, it hinders performance, which is incredibly detrimental too.

[785] One of the things when I started reading about your future now looking forward, you then also got the news a couple years later, this year, I believe, that you had to have heart surgery.

[786] That was a bit of a shock as well.

[787] Yeah, so I was, so after, the pandemic.

[788] I always ride my bike a lot.

[789] My dad actually was very ill. So I went down to, as soon as we could travel after the pandemic, I went down to France, to the Alps.

[790] And I was there visiting the hospital, rode my bike.

[791] And as I was riding uphill, I was getting this kind of, I thought it was a pain in my throat or something to do with my breathing or the dry air, maybe the altitude.

[792] When I was trying pretty hard, push myself pretty out, it really started to to hurt quite a lot and then if I slow down it subside and off it went so I thought okay it was just going to pass as you do I went out for a ride with a friend of mine the guy called nicky craig and we were out riding and he um and I really wore a ride I said blah blind I think I'm going to have to stop here because it's you know this pain was getting really bad so I thought in the end I thought well I'll go and have it I'll go and check it out you know just in case I went for a CT scan at my heart and the guy came out and it was a German guy said David you have a big problem and my left descending artery was totally blocked and I was literally kind of they wouldn't let me that was it they kept me there put me on medication straight away and I pretty much operated on you know to avoid a heart attack basically and that was a shock that was pretty full on really yeah that was more of a shock than a cancer I don't know why your heart feels worse than, I don't know, but it was a different, it was a different sensation, that one, I must admit, that had me worried.

[793] And that's another set of uncomfortable conversations with Millie and...

[794] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then now to go in.

[795] And so the doctor, again, doctors brilliant, went in, and then I thought, God, I've done a typical bloke thing here where I ignored all these symptoms for, you know, eight months, nine months, just ignored it, didn't go and have it checked properly.

[796] And in the end, of course, I could have done it sooner.

[797] And then I went in, and they went in with a wire and a camera to have a look how badly it was blocked, you know, the artery.

[798] And they had a sort of open heart surgeon there.

[799] And a guy puts a stent in like a plumber.

[800] And they were going to decide whether they could get a stent in and open up the artery or they were going to go and do a hot, you know, a bypass basically and take a bit of rain and stitch it in.

[801] And then I came out and I felt like 10 men, yeah.

[802] Really?

[803] Yeah, yeah, amazing.

[804] Amazing.

[805] Went out of my bike.

[806] It's like I'd gained 50 watts.

[807] It was...

[808] Really?

[809] Yeah, brilliant.

[810] And then I haven't had any pain since, and I still...

[811] I did six and a half hours a day before yesterday with a lot with New Yorker.

[812] Unbelievable.

[813] Yeah, yeah.

[814] Speaking of progress then, one of the things that I...

[815] We were kind of talking about before we started chatting, but also I really wanted to ask you about, kind of the last point I was really curious about regarding the team, was that your philosophy towards the team is evolving with time and how you get the best out of the people.

[816] People are typically quite rigid in their philosophy in the way they think, but I read that you're now taking a individual first approach, not a team first approach.

[817] Is that accurate and why?

[818] Well, I think there's the individual behind a performer.

[819] Right.

[820] You know, and I think everybody is, so I don't think it's individualized in terms of, you know, the team is still absolutely, you know, the fundamental kind of tendons of what we do.

[821] But there is an individual behind a performer and that's worth exploring.

[822] and maybe being expressing more.

[823] We've been tremendously successful.

[824] And with Team Sky, we had a brilliant run and won, you know, a lot of back -to -back tour of Francis and other grand tours.

[825] However, over that time, you know, there's like, you know, you can, when you become serial winners, it becomes predictable.

[826] And of course, some people like that.

[827] If you're a supporter, some people don't like that, it becomes predictable.

[828] And, you know, the interest and the sort of the emotional response that it generates, the performance generates is an interesting thing to contemplate.

[829] You know, we've just seen the Formula One at the weekend and everybody was gripped by it because it was just unpredictable, nobody's going to happen, there was suspense, there was an emotional roller coaster along with the actual performance.

[830] And I think when you look at sports, if you think you can perform on a vertical axis, performance goes up and up and up and up until you become serial winners.

[831] But then across the bottom, you think, what kind of emotional response, what kind of feelings, what kind of style, you know, how are you making people feel?

[832] And you can have a team like German, let's say, who's a serial winners and think, people go, yeah, okay.

[833] But the Germans love it, obviously, but everybody's, yeah, okay.

[834] But a team who achieve the same, like Brazil, people love Brazil.

[835] Everybody loves Brazil.

[836] Why is that?

[837] What's the difference?

[838] You know, they're still performing.

[839] They're still winning.

[840] So the metric, if you like, the winning is still similar.

[841] But the way that they're going about winning seems to be slightly different.

[842] And in the centre, let's say, the motor racing scenario, or Schumacher maybe, or, you know, some of the, and you think, I don't know, you're saying Bolt or maybe the All Blacks or, you know.

[843] Manchester United.

[844] Manchester United.

[845] Yeah, injury time, yeah.

[846] And there are certain teams or that I think, I don't really warm, not feeling that, but this one over there doing the same thing.

[847] God, I love them.

[848] And what is it about, what is it about those teams?

[849] And is that something you can, is it just happens or is it something that you can actually work towards?

[850] So, for example, when I first went left home to go to France to be a professional cyclist, there was something in that sport that chimed of me so much and got me so passionate that I left everything behind.

[851] I left home, I went to a foreign country, I couldn't speed the language, didn't know what I was going to do.

[852] But I still did it.

[853] I still went because something was pulling me. And it was something about that sport.

[854] that time that I just adored and when I think now and think right when I was that age what kind of team if you'd have told me then at that age I could be running one of the world's biggest cycling teams and had the success that we've had and still be running one I think what kind of team would I'd have loved to a scene what kind of flare what kind of you know how would they have erased and would it been you know would it been very much part of us or would it been like you know just bulldoze your way through, what would it be a bit of pernash and flair and cool, you know.

[855] Excitement.

[856] Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

[857] And so can you, where does style, you know, and that sort of emotion fit in terms of performance?

[858] And you can go after a performance clinically, you know, and can style ever be a performance attribute?

[859] And if you think about that, you know, so is that something you can go after or is it something that you just have, have?

[860] Is it just something that happens in the chemistry of a team?

[861] Or is it the way that you are?

[862] So for us, we obviously are the race of bikes, but what about off the bike and the way you speak and the way you do your social media and the way you are with people and the way you are with fans and who you are, the colours and everything else that goes on?

[863] Is there something in there which actually can bring out the individual and you get to know the individuals?

[864] They're not just kind of guys with sunglasses on with helmets on and kind of like sort of faceless, Warriors, as it were.

[865] Where's the person?

[866] You know, we've got guys from Ecuador and, you know, come from, you know, unbelievable backgrounds in Ecuador.

[867] And there's stories of how they found themselves in our team.

[868] It's just incredible.

[869] And the guys from Columbia and the guys from Britain, the guys from everywhere.

[870] They've all got their journeys.

[871] They've all got personalities.

[872] They've all got the humans, you know, they're interesting.

[873] The backstories are interesting.

[874] And it's like, where does that all kind of come together in a team and how does that get?

[875] How do you, how do you watch that performance and see all of that.

[876] Is it possible?

[877] And I'm really interested in that to the minute.

[878] This is such a, this is such a conversation that someone who is won a lot would have.

[879] They're now thinking about the way they want to win.

[880] And it's interesting because when you were saying that I was thinking about different teams and Jose Marino and Klopp and then the one that I really stumbled on was boxing.

[881] Where you could have Vladimir Klitsko who holds the throne for a decade.

[882] a decade, but then everybody turns off the sport.

[883] Yeah.

[884] And then you get an Anthony Joshua and a Tyson Fury that come along.

[885] They're still champions, but they're doing it in a way that's captivating the public.

[886] So my question, my mind then became, well, you have to ask yourself, is the objective just to win?

[887] Or is it to win and make loads of money and inspire a generation?

[888] Because people are flooding into boxing now because of Fury and AJ.

[889] And the money those guys are making is way more than Klitsko was making.

[890] Yeah.

[891] So I guess it's a case of a victory.

[892] I think it's like the old, we've been talking about it.

[893] You know, it's like if you win a lot, you can be respected.

[894] You'd be respected, but can you be respected and loved?

[895] Can it be respected for your victories, but loved for a way that you achieve them?

[896] And that's where that's the Holy Grail.

[897] Why is being loved?

[898] Why does that matter?

[899] Admired and loved and love them, get passion from people and, you know, just generate emotion.

[900] And that's what sports about.

[901] You know, that's what really, I think, in the end, you know, it's there's something about sports which is inspiring.

[902] It can move people, you know, and I think the whole emotion of sport is something that's why we love it.

[903] In the end, you know, you can take part in it or you can watch it.

[904] You know, why is everybody watching a Formula One at the weekend?

[905] Because it was so inspiring and emotional.

[906] It's just, wow, you've got to see it.

[907] And the same with Klitsko or Tyson Fury, you know, when he's got that knockout punch and he was out.

[908] And then he gets back up again.

[909] That's insane.

[910] It's just insane.

[911] feel myself now it's just like that's those moments in sport are what sports all about and i think that's what you know if you're involved in sport and you like a you know been most of my life involved in sport of course you've got to try and win first and foremost and winning itself isn't easy you know and then of course that's got to be the the first kind of absolutely you're not going to you'd never go after the style if it wasn't intelligent but some people have got intelligence and style and the flair and the cantonars or the centres or we race you know and i guess for me i know this sounds maybe a bit bonkers but you know we're in the business of thoroughbreds really if you think about it the top of the top where i'm you know the guys who work with it they're all thoroughbreds but i want a thoroughbred racer somebody can race afterport isn't a team sport necessarily it's a race you know we're racing one another you're trying to outwit your opponent and trying to outman and it's not just a physical endeavor it's a race and there's something about you know there's something very very um cool about the guy the great races and there's something about that which i just adore you know he saw at the weekend with hamilton and the stop and what i mean unbelievable unbelievable i could admire those guys so much i really do and and i think um i think most people would admire hamilton now maybe even a little bit more because we're in a different dimension of his character, a different kind of, he was amazing after that.

[912] In that short period after that, you know, when Verstappen won, the way he managed himself and the way he handles himself was just unbelievable.

[913] And I think everybody saw a different, a different view or looked at Lewis Hamilton through a different lens and they saw a very different person and what they would normally maybe see.

[914] And therein lies the magic of sports, I think, you know.

[915] My last question for you.

[916] again, I asked this question from a very personally curious space because it's a problem I've not figured out for myself, which is we talked a little bit about sacrifice there is about romantic relationships and the struggle of being a great and winning and sacrificing and doing 200 days a year at races while also trying to meet these goals of romantic relationships.

[917] I've struggled with it pretty much my whole life.

[918] Have you struggled with it?

[919] Do you have any answers for me?

[920] No, I don't.

[921] I'm not your man here.

[922] Unfortunately, no, that's something that, you know, I wouldn't say that I'm that good at, if I'm honest, if I'm really honest, you know.

[923] Same.

[924] And I think I'd like to be.

[925] You selfish, do you think?

[926] Sort of selfish, yeah, probably, or sort of concerned, really.

[927] You know, like so, like, driven of God, I can't fail at this, you know.

[928] And that sort of fear of, and it is, There's something that inside of me that worries about failing so much that I can't switch off from it in a way, you know.

[929] In 2014, you struggled with that, right?

[930] When that was the year you didn't win the Tour de France.

[931] Big time, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[932] What do you mean by big time?

[933] Give me the specifics.

[934] I just at the time I was embarrassed and not about the team or anything.

[935] I just for myself and I felt this thing of, God, I couldn't go out, couldn't go out of a house, couldn't leave the garden.

[936] I remember speaking, I called Steve Peters from the garden and thought, God, I've let everybody down, I've failed and it was, yeah, quite, quite, winning for me doesn't actually, that sounds terrible, but I mean, I get exhilaration from the moment that you win, obviously, it's great to win.

[937] But the emotion, you know, the depth or the amount of emotion it gives me to win is nowhere near the amount of emotion I get from losing.

[938] So the negative emotion from losing is massive for me, whereas the positive of winning is okay, yeah, it's done the job, part of the journey, great, fantastic, let's keep on going.

[939] And so I think this kind of the avoidance, but not wanting to lose and really trying to help people to win.

[940] Do you know where that comes from?

[941] Because that does sound intense.

[942] Yeah, I don't know.

[943] But I've always had it all been the same.

[944] You know, I get super excited by wanting to do, so it's a big.

[945] bold, ambitious things and then going out and say, right, we're going to, let's go and do X. And then afterwards, I think, oh, what are I done?

[946] And then, of course, then I've got to make it happen.

[947] And I get after making it happen.

[948] And I think that's where I've got this kind of dichotomy, really, of this part of me, which is probably my heart, which is the crazy ambition of wanting to do things that's never been done before and helping people go after stuff and all that kind of you know nothing's impossible nothing's impossible anybody says impossible we'll prove you wrong and then you've got to get after it and i think the getting after it's where i go back into more of this whole the detail that's the doing of it and it's as if my head and my heart sort of sets these wild kind of ambitions and then i got and i've got to switch out of that into the right let's get after it and then they're not wanting to not succeed of whatever it was drives me then you know we have a tradition on this podcast which is the previous guest writes a question for the next guest and i don't actually get to see it until i open this book so you will also be writing a question for my next guest if you could turn back the clock on one day this year and do it differently what would it be and why this year wow there's a lot gone on for me this year that's for sure I think I'd like to go back so Millie's just had a 17th birthday and um on a 29th November driving car test etc and I wouldn't go back and change it necessarily but I just go back and relive it because I loved that then rather than something I'd change I'd just go back and do it again yeah it's like a big deal you know get your car and yeah so I'd like to come spend that whole day again.

[949] That's what I'd like to do.

[950] Amazing.

[951] Well, thank you so much for coming here because, as I've said, you know, it's so funny that I've never met you, but you've had such a big influence on me and my philosophy and helping me articulate that.

[952] And, you know, Sophie, who's my assistant, once upon a time, worked with you and she has always spoken well about you, which is actually really remarkable because people often don't leave a job and speak so highly of the person they worked with.

[953] But even, you know, since we started doing this podcast, she was telling me, you've got to to get you've got to get Dave one you've got to get Dave one and she's she's always just sung your praises and your philosophy the way you articulate it I think it's helped more people than you're probably ever realized but it's an I consider this to be a huge honor having you here today as did my friends when I told them you were coming and that's for very very good reason because everybody thinks you're a bit of a legend so thank you so much for your honesty and your thank you thank you and thank you for what you guys do you know oh thank you bring a lot of happiness and joy and inspiration to a lot of people I hope people to listen what you've got to you know and which is which is remarkable and i think um and i think you've you know when you got when you get that there's a sense of responsibility in a way isn't there by the time you know by the the level of the platform that you built for yourself and you and you do an amazing job with it so thank you oh thank you means a lot