49 - The Great Guy Law-Time New Years Spectacular

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hey, this is exciting.

[2] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[3] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[4] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[5] Who killed Saz?

[6] And were they really after Charles?

[7] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[8] This season, murder hits close to home.

[9] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[10] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[11] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[12] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[13] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[14] Only Martyrs in the building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[15] Goodbye.

[16] If you're going to do something, don't half -ass it.

[17] Speaking of which.

[18] This is my favorite murder.

[19] Did you get that, Stephen?

[20] Are we recording the show?

[21] Oh, my God.

[22] Oh, my God.

[23] Welcome to my favorite murder.

[24] End of 2016 episode.

[25] This is the end of this fucking shit pole of a year.

[26] Now, if you had a great year, congratulations.

[27] How did you do it?

[28] Press stop and go, have fun with your...

[29] And go fuck yourself.

[30] Our new musical.

[31] Yeah.

[32] Oh, my God.

[33] Speaking of, did you hear the song that a techno song that a dude made of our pod?

[34] You haven't heard this?

[35] No. Oh, my God.

[36] Of our podcast.

[37] Okay.

[38] Wait, hold on.

[39] I feel such guilt for the amount of things people do and make and whatever that I'm always like, oh, I missed that three months ago.

[40] Well, you're going to die because this is the best thing that's ever happened.

[41] Are you ready for this?

[42] Yes.

[43] Y 'all ready for this?

[44] Dun, done, dun, done.

[45] Okay.

[46] This is from Alex.

[47] Alex J. Squire on Twitter.

[48] Oh, that name sounds familiar to me. And it's not working.

[49] Why isn't it working?

[50] There's just a photo of his cat and you press play.

[51] This isn't fucking in.

[52] Okay.

[53] Fucking John Wayne Gage.

[54] Oh, my God.

[55] I can't believe you missed that one.

[56] I can't stop smiling.

[57] I know.

[58] Are you saying who, that's announcing the Chicago Live show who you're doing and you go.

[59] with fucking gentleman and I go yeah and it's like this perfect it just goes and goes like that oh that is thank you Alex J. Squire oh my god talented motherfucker are you friends with Diplo because that was incredible that's the new hit um you're hearing a very familiar laugh we can't ignore it noticed a lot of you know and love that's right we actually have in our wrap down 2016 holiday spectacular anything goes and who the fuck knows our friend and our guest, Mr. Guy Brantam, hello.

[60] Good to be here, so excited.

[61] I want that track so bad.

[62] I have a dance track from the 80s that is Margaret Thatcher's speeches.

[63] No. Turned into an acid dance song.

[64] Oh, my God.

[65] I love this so much.

[66] You guys are also astoundingly lucky with your fan dog.

[67] Oh, for fuck's sake.

[68] Like your...

[69] People say it and you're like, yeah, yeah.

[70] No. But like, it's crazy.

[71] It's weird.

[72] It's crazy.

[73] The extent to which their response to all of this is, she does describe a brutal murder.

[74] I need to make this a project.

[75] Yes.

[76] Well, actually, I have something to surprise you with Karen.

[77] What more?

[78] Yes.

[79] Because you know me hearing my voice with techno music behind it is like that made 2017 for me. Totally.

[80] I mean, this year's a fucking bus, but you can carry it on it next year.

[81] That's right.

[82] Okay, so I got a package in my PO box and it just said it was to me, so I opened it and I'm sorry.

[83] And I got this letter that made me, cry like literally almost made me cry I was really depressed today and then I read it and it made me feel better.

[84] It's basically this girl who's like thank you guys so much.

[85] I went to a Chicago show.

[86] I also told my mom now secretly listens to the podcast and she's a, she's, lives in Alabama and she's a quote, rich white, Republican Southern Baptist mother and is a closet fan and she can't tell anyone about it.

[87] Yes.

[88] What's her name?

[89] When the girl found out that we were doing Chicago again, she said I immediately bought my mom plane ticket to Chicago to go.

[90] My name is Chelsea.

[91] Why?

[92] And look what she gave us.

[93] Open this.

[94] Well, here.

[95] Oh, shit.

[96] She works at a company, she works at like a beauty product company.

[97] And she sent us a whole line of sweet honesty.

[98] Oh, my God.

[99] Oh, my God.

[100] Is this the original or is this how they market it now?

[101] I think it's still around.

[102] There's sweet honesty from the live show at Chicago.

[103] But it looks so 70s.

[104] I know.

[105] Avon sweet honesty.

[106] Yeah.

[107] No, was that a real thing?

[108] Was it a real?

[109] Yeah, it's real.

[110] That's why that girl had the, it was a thing.

[111] She had basically, it was like, you know, loves baby soft perfume from the 70s.

[112] Like, if you had a t -shirt of that, this was Avon's version, which was sweet honesty.

[113] Let me see if I can find her Twitter so I can give her a shout -out.

[114] And one of these looks like, oh, my God.

[115] Wait, this is what they sell now because this looks like the roll -on deodorant.

[116] Yes, no. Old deodorant.

[117] It looks like deodorant from the 70s.

[118] It's, this is, I mean.

[119] This is the.

[120] podcast that made me try to figure out how my mom could listen to podcasts because she loves true crime so much.

[121] We got to get Debbie on board.

[122] We got to get Debbie on board.

[123] I don't know how we're going to do it.

[124] Remember when you'd have to buy your parents an iPod to get them like and download a bunch of fucking shit for them listen to it?

[125] She put it in a drawer.

[126] She put in a drawer.

[127] I honestly feel like I need to go greatest hits and burn some CDs for her.

[128] I think you should.

[129] That's the way to go.

[130] CDs is easier.

[131] It's not a lot of having to touch things and plug things in.

[132] yeah at the same time please burn some CDs for Debbie at the same time though my dad figured out how to listen to a podcast and that was a mistake I'm trying to find Chelsea's Twitter because I want to give her Hi Marty my dad my dad figured out how to listen to podcasts and then decided this one wasn't for him oh my son listen it's okay he's more of a nerdist guy this I I can't he's like I just want to listen to men Tom I love it yeah women are so boring can I spray some sweet honesty.

[133] God, yes.

[134] You had to huff it, actually.

[135] I got to.

[136] My grandma's Avon lady showing up was one of the most exciting things that could happen.

[137] Avon ladies were the, it just makes you think of Edward Cisorhan.

[138] Yeah, right?

[139] That was a real thing.

[140] I remember doing what was, it wasn't Avon, but there was another one that was like that.

[141] Or maybe it was Avon.

[142] We went to a party of it at my Aunt Jean's house one time, and the way this lady was explaining how you had to buy all of this product because if you used a bunch of different brands on your face together, it was like chemical warfare on your face.

[143] That's the biggest bullshit I was 12 years old sitting at the table going bullshit or everyone would have their face burned by now.

[144] 12 year old Karen was like she just call you out on your shit.

[145] I think it's amazing salesmanship.

[146] It's smart it's smart wording.

[147] It was very effective.

[148] It wasn't Jafra but it was like one of those brands or it was kind of like it's a freestanding beauty you know kind of slightly pyramids game a number of women from my high school who've ended up in multi -level marketing of beauty project yeah okay her name is Chelsea Young and she's on Twitter as Chelsea and then L -E -E -A -U and she's a fucking she's from Naperville, Illinois yeah she's a sweetheart that's where Barrego Oden Croft's from oh oh my God is it terrible no no it's good let me smell but I just literally inhaled it she said at the oh that's like baby powder it's powder it smells like baby powder it smells like a diaper it's adorable 15 year olds it smells like it smells like a teenage baby which is what everybody wants is what men are attracted to normal heterosexual men are attracted to and she also said that during the during the live show her friend that they were with had to go outside she was sick with the flu had to go outside and barf in the parking lot but came back in and fucking stuck it out yes like she was like we were fucking and she sent me a photo of her son of them and it she's sick with the flu of uh bud wiser tallboys because i've had that same sickness several times in my life um okay guy is gonna law is gonna law us oh yeah that's what so that's what we brought you here on those pretences that's right so like you guys you guys talk about law things a lot like you talk about murder you talk about murder we talk about them with a lot of confidence even though we fucking don't know anything it's true There's a lot of theorizing.

[149] Open up.

[150] Do you guys have any idea what the difference between the first and second degree murder is?

[151] Intent?

[152] One.

[153] Oh.

[154] I don't do Roman numeral.

[155] So I'm sorry.

[156] You're right that it is intent level.

[157] It is basically, so like first degree murder requires premeditation.

[158] Right.

[159] But that isn't really planning.

[160] That's mostly just like being in a right enough mind to be like, even for a moment, like, I want to kill this person.

[161] And then doing it, like, immediately after?

[162] Yeah, I mean, you do need to, like, both have the mens rea and the act happened.

[163] Sure, what's that?

[164] At the same time.

[165] I don't know that word is that.

[166] That's a state of mind.

[167] Intentous state of mind.

[168] Oh, I thought mens rea was your period.

[169] It does sound like a real nasty period.

[170] So the second degree murder is horrible.

[171] Second degree murder is either a, like, your passions were raised by, like, the paradigm.

[172] is you see your wife fucking somebody else and you either kill him or her or like...

[173] He did the moment.

[174] In the moment.

[175] In the moment.

[176] Or like you're like somebody starts a fight with you and they don't use deadly force.

[177] But you are trying to defend yourself.

[178] And escalates.

[179] So you and you kill them.

[180] Those are secondary murder things.

[181] But second degree murder is used for like the worst things.

[182] Like that dude on Ellen, or not on island, what was the Jenny Jones?

[183] The Jenny Jones dude.

[184] We did that one, yeah.

[185] Yes, or the guy who killed Harvey Milk.

[186] Oh, I almost Don't.

[187] Dan Brown.

[188] Don't talk about it.

[189] I almost did that one.

[190] Oh, okay.

[191] No, I'm going to.

[192] I didn't talk about it.

[193] It's really good, but he basically said, like, I was so freaked out by being around gay people and I'd eaten so many twinkies.

[194] Twinkie.

[195] That I wasn't in a right state of mind.

[196] And so, like, okay, he got fired and he got pissed off and came back.

[197] So isn't that premeditation, though?

[198] I mean, it all depends on what the jury believes.

[199] And the thing is, like, the jury is so willing when it comes to, like, a gay guy hit on me and then I killed him means you're doing six years instead of, like, I decided to kill some gay guy, which is, like, 15 to life, you know?

[200] Like, if they can empathize with you, you're better off.

[201] And so, like, like, second degree murder is this terrible situation where, like, it's completely screwed over from women because in the like 70s they tried to sell this idea of battered wife syndrome the thing is is that like burning bed right burning bed yeah what's that I don't know that they fair faucet made for TV movie called burning bed but based on a real story based on a real story this woman was so terribly abused I remember watching it with my mom and at one point I mean they it was incredibly graphic of basically showing what domestic violence really looks like and it's incredibly intense but it was on at like eight o 'clock at night on ABC or whatever And I remember at one point my mom goes, I think you should go to bed.

[202] But you didn't.

[203] Of course not.

[204] I was just like out of my way, lady, like standing closer to the TV.

[205] But it was basically to try to show people this whole thing of like, yeah, knock your wife around it, shut her up.

[206] It's because you, it's like, in my mind when I was a kid, it was like, it's romantic.

[207] It's because he loves you so much and it's so passionate and you must just have this intense relationship.

[208] And then you see the reality of it.

[209] And you're like, this is just brutal fucking bullying and awfulness.

[210] Cracking someone across the mouth.

[211] Yeah.

[212] because she's lippy is not a fun thing to say to your friends in the bar when actually it's a horrible pattern because you were abused and once it starts it can't stop because you're in this like in a rage fit and you beat a person up like they're a man and then if you're when you're older and you're in a good relationship and the thought of like Vince when we get in a fight which happens him just fucking smacking me because I he got like that would be that would change my world and the fact that this is a normal thing for people bothers me so much.

[213] The thing is, what's so fascinating is that, like...

[214] Really quick.

[215] Yes.

[216] So at night, she burnt his bed while he was in it.

[217] Then she got off, right?

[218] When she went to...

[219] That's a horrible idea.

[220] But the thing is, like, how we learned during law school, like, basically is...

[221] The terrible thing is for, like, second -degree murder, it is generally a dude grabbing a gun right there, or it has to be sort of, like, within the same window of time that his second -degree murder sort of, like, active passion happens.

[222] but women who've been beaten don't do that.

[223] They stew and then three weeks later they...

[224] Or three years.

[225] And they just finally like break and like shoot him or burn the bed or whatever.

[226] And like so uniformly, battered wife syndrome was rejected by the courts as a thing.

[227] But like it's pretty bad.

[228] It's almost like it may I feel like it's even worse because they're going through years and years of constant torture and having their minds fucked with because they never know how someone's going to react and so they're not even in their right mind you know when they're planning it beforehand the thing that's so creepy about all of this is that so many of these ideas were built in the 1600s in England when like things that were very immediate we understood but the notion of sort of like a long simmering like psychological torture nobody understood because they all died when they were 34 and well and also that men so had the mic that it was like well they would have to understand how a woman would interpret abuse and approach it as opposed to how it would feel or how they would react to it which they would be like well that's not how it's done as opposed to that's not how maybe men do it or how to the individual it was being your wife is legal like being your wife is just it's in the Bible yeah it's in the Bible can I say this really quick just so everyone knows a guy Brannum is a lawyer the reason that we're having him talk about we get some credentials we know all this is that you are legally a lawyer.

[229] I graduated from the University of Minnesota Law School in 2001.

[230] That is amazing.

[231] Which means I am an expert on the law of murder and other things in the same way that Karen and Georgia are experts.

[232] No, in a much better way.

[233] Wait, finish that.

[234] I haven't done this in 15 years.

[235] So this is basically just what I remember.

[236] Oh, good, good, good.

[237] But like, from that, let's hop on over to murder's best buddy, rape.

[238] And understand that, like, in common law, in sort of like the origin of our entire legal system, it's a horrible construction of this situation where it has to be a violent act.

[239] It has to be against someone other than your wife, like that, you know, the old school laws.

[240] And there have been many laws that try to sort of, like, update things.

[241] I hate, like, that intimidation, you know, and a woman going along.

[242] along with things to not get murdered, shows that she, you know, like, she didn't fight.

[243] So it wasn't really right.

[244] You know, like that kind of thing where her pants would have been hard to take off.

[245] So she must have been consenting.

[246] So basically, one interesting thing that you guys, like, comes up on the show a lot is in some states, you still have rape laws that have been updated.

[247] But in other states, there was this thing in the 50s called the model penal code where they sort of tried to make the law reflect the world that we live in now a little bit more.

[248] And so that's what the difference between like first degree, second degree, and third degree sexual assault are.

[249] And these are very serious issues and it's weird to hear a man talk about them.

[250] And I'm sorry.

[251] I had the creepiest criminal professor who was like a man in his 60s and he was constantly saying things that you were like, don't say it like that.

[252] Don't stop.

[253] He was from before.

[254] Can I tell you, can I tell you the two worst of them?

[255] Yes.

[256] Always please.

[257] No, my God.

[258] Yes.

[259] They were.

[260] They were.

[261] He's our number one fan.

[262] there's no rape by swindle which is essentially saying if you promise to pay a prostitute and then at the end you're like nope that's not rape which is like classic common law in many states have sort of like figured stuff like that out and then the other one was don't do the voice again I'm sorry I have to no I love it for when it comes to sexual violence and age, there comes a point where mental state doesn't matter.

[263] If you did it, so like, basically you can't say, but she looked 18.

[264] Oh.

[265] But you cannot say, but she looked 13, which was the most chilling thing to hear.

[266] I don't understand.

[267] So wait, so you couldn't say that she looked of age and so you didn't know, and so it's not statutory rape.

[268] One thing I should be saying is this man was a leading rape expert.

[269] Like, he was this old, like, 60...

[270] In more ways than one, probably.

[271] Sixty -five -year -old...

[272] Slander, slander.

[273] White guy who went to Harvard was, like...

[274] He'd written, like, several books about it, but was talking about it this way.

[275] And it was just like, no, that's what's wrong with the law, is all of these laws were written by that guy.

[276] Yeah.

[277] We talk about fucking statute.

[278] I mean, this comes up, and Karen's always like, stop it.

[279] But statute of limitations is just, like, my biggest...

[280] And, like, anything but murder has statute of limitations.

[281] seems like.

[282] Yes.

[283] And like that comes to an idea of like after a certain period of time, you like you just, it's after you find out that the injury occurred, does the statute of limitations toll.

[284] Oh, okay.

[285] So 20 years later, you can be like I got raped and there wouldn't have passed the statute of limitations?

[286] Well, the thing is, you knew for all of that time, but if it was something that like, you didn't know that something had been stolen from you or, you know, if there was a body and it was never reported and like we found the body and it's related to nothing then you have like three or five or however many years.

[287] I guess it's murder, so that would be that.

[288] It just makes, I feel like someday we're all going to be like, the fuck was that about, like kidnapping.

[289] I don't know.

[290] All of it.

[291] I have a question for you that I've always.

[292] always wondered, like, about myself and what I would do is, if you had to go to trial for something big, let's say, would you want a jury or would you just want a judge?

[293] Okay.

[294] First of all, do you guys understand what the difference between those two things are?

[295] Not really.

[296] The amount of people.

[297] And robes.

[298] Yeah.

[299] One is a jury and one is a judge.

[300] So the thing is, the idea is, is that in all situations, you have a finder of law and a finder of fact.

[301] so like a jury the finder of law is always the judge because they're official and they know what the law is and finder of fact you can either have it be a judge or you can have it be a jury and like the horrible thing about having gone to law school is that I kind of would trust a judge as a finder of fact more but the thing is in a criminal case you can't get a judge as a finder of fact really yeah well I mean you have a right to a jury trial right so I mean Could you wave one?

[302] See, this is how much I don't remember this stuff.

[303] And the thing is, I mean, you personally, yeah.

[304] Well, I mean, the thing is, is that I, no, I guess I would go with a jury because the thing is, if I had done it, a jury is easier to, like, you know, confuse about stuff like that.

[305] Totally.

[306] Yeah.

[307] And, you know, there's the wonderful thing that we have this presumption of innocence and we have a thing against double jeopardy, which means, you know, if you just get them to even just mistransment.

[308] trial three times.

[309] Then you're off.

[310] One of the things that's so interesting about listening to your podcast is this strong presumption of innocence, which is a thing I love, does lead to a lot of people getting off who we then later find out were horrible people.

[311] Yeah.

[312] I mean, it's so shitty because it's like, well, there's double jeopardy, but like, just because this person was terrible and molested children doesn't mean he killed this other kid.

[313] Yeah.

[314] But they, oh, but it's still, shouldn't they Oh there's a great thing that circumstantial evidence is evidence Like have you guys ever talked about Like I guess you guys do with like DNA and stuff like that Yeah there's a lot of cases that are that we talk about That are just tried on circumstantial evidence for sure And you do have that thing of Is it beyond a reasonable doubt Which is like kind of good Because it means you need a lot of circumstantial evidence But there's also the weird thing of like It's just these 12 people Kind of deciding it which means that like jury instructions are always the most most important thing.

[315] Jury instructions are like a judge laying out, what are the like five clean questions that you need to ask to figure out whether this was the person who committed the murder.

[316] And do they do that when everything is done before they go to start to decide or at the beginning before the case is presented?

[317] Okay.

[318] So basically at the end of the trial, both sides will submit a set of jury instructions.

[319] These are the ones that we want them to be.

[320] and then the judge will basically between the two of those sort of like synthesize jury instructions that he feel or she feels best sort of like reflect the law as it exists and then submit those to the jury.

[321] But that would be great and wonderful if it wasn't for the fact that the prosecutors are doing anything in their means including make up, you know, false stories to get their client off.

[322] You know what I mean?

[323] You mean defense attorneys?

[324] No, the prosecution.

[325] I guess both.

[326] You say get clients off.

[327] I mean, sorry, get their to either.

[328] Okay, yeah, the defense to get the clients off.

[329] But also the prosecution to get this person charged.

[330] The thing is that in my head, I'm always like, like, the prosecution has such a better position.

[331] Because like, before anything else, a DA gets to say, do, is this person?

[332] clearly not guilty.

[333] Like a DA can totally just say, I'm not going to prosecute them.

[334] And, like, they kind of have the apparatus of the state behind them.

[335] And defense attorneys, when it's not people versus O .J. Simpson, like, so much of the time are, like, they're worse paid.

[336] Like, for everything except for white -collar crimes, they are, like, worse paid and they have, like, worse support and everything.

[337] And I do have more sympathy than I probably should for defense attorneys who are like trying to um like get somebody off through technicalities like let's never forget that in the late 1970s ruth bitter ginsberg was going to the south to people who had been convicted by all male juries and had death sentences and stuff and saying let's reconsider his sentence because there were no women on this jury and that's why you guys have to serve jury duty now is because Ruth Bader Ginsburg made you equal but in the process kind of got some assholes like a second chance even though they did what they were convicted for In my mind and this might fucking I might be fucking putting my foot in my mouth but I'm more dubious of the prosecution than I am of the defense.

[338] Yeah I mean but it is but also defense have so much so much pushing them to like fight for technicalities where like I just feel like because they're kind of there to just go they cut down to the bare bones of like look this guy's this and he's going to look guilty how do I how do I cut down on how guilty he looks and just get the lowest number that we could possibly get and the thing is is like you do I mean it is like defense attorneys like shouldn't they all be plea bargaining like I just feel like good attorneys in any situation really should be coming to some sort of agreement beforehand because going to a trial is just chaos.

[339] You don't know what those people on that jury are going to say.

[340] It's crazy.

[341] It's crazy.

[342] Please let's never be in that position.

[343] Guys, let's do our very best.

[344] Do you want me to answer the question from last week?

[345] The key, key question from last week?

[346] Yes, yes.

[347] Do we repeat the question for everyone?

[348] Well, it was your question.

[349] Okay.

[350] My question was, I said life imprisonment, a sentence of life imprisonment is life in prison.

[351] Uh -huh.

[352] Well, it came out first, not to be argumentative.

[353] Yeah.

[354] The first thing you said was life in prison means 10 years.

[355] Well, yeah.

[356] Which is when I said you're full of things.

[357] I meant, I didn't mean 10 years exactly.

[358] But yes, I meant life in prison.

[359] That's how we started talking about it.

[360] And then I was like, what the fuck is going on?

[361] In the 1970s, Georgia comes close to being true.

[362] Like, really?

[363] I'm sorry.

[364] I love vintage clothing.

[365] No, look, it's not, it's not, it's not remotely true anymore.

[366] Oh.

[367] but it is so like basically so you have either giving somebody a number of years and sometimes you get the ridiculous number of years and you're like why are they putting this person in prison for 572 years and that is because they have committed a bunch of crimes but of a sort that's a life imprisonment is not an option and they're trying to put the person in prison and then there's regular life in prison and life in prison without parole um and regular life in prison in like the 70s it used to be that like after as little as like four or five years you could be up for parole.

[368] Why use the word life?

[369] That's like a time in prison.

[370] It's ridiculous.

[371] It's like a statement that means nothing.

[372] It means nothing.

[373] That's so confusing.

[374] So what happened is because people kept getting off and going...

[375] Because no one knew it, right?

[376] Killing some more people.

[377] Yes.

[378] That you started getting these laws that were called truth and sentencing laws that basically said and I think a majority of states have pass them.

[379] And a lot of states now, and the federal government have the option of life imprisonment without parole.

[380] But the thing of saying, you have to serve at least 85 % of your sentence.

[381] And for life imprisonment, creating a certain, like, you can't even be under consideration for parole until like 15 years.

[382] Yeah, but that's still like, if you get life in prison and then you, and then with the possibility of parole in 20 years.

[383] And so then you get, you know, 15 years or whatever, 85 % of 20s, then that's, you get, you spend 16 years in prison for murder and getting life.

[384] Like the story of this kind of is supposed to be that like, but this guy was being a model prisoner and he's being so great.

[385] And there's also this thing of like good behavior time where like the person in charge of the prison can like give like credit time to you because you've been like behaving well but that is that thing of like is prison reflective of how you're going to behave in real life?

[386] I mean of course not and this is now we're getting back into the Mary Vincent case where that's what happened to the man who attacked her and viciously maimed her where he was so good in prison that for I can't remember his first crime whatever it was it was probably murdering a woman or something he spent four years in jail and then got out to almost kill her.

[387] But let's talk about the awesome and cool ways that you can punish people from being assholes.

[388] So Georgia and I are getting...

[389] This is right up your alley.

[390] Georgia and I are getting more champagne in us.

[391] So this conversation, let's hope is getting smoother.

[392] Let's do it.

[393] Okay, so let's, first of all, let's just go back to, what does it take to make a murder?

[394] What do you think it takes to make a murder?

[395] We already talked about...

[396] The dark?

[397] Intent.

[398] A knife.

[399] Oh, you make your fucking joke about the dark.

[400] But let me talk.

[401] tell you for burglary and arson at common law they had to happen at night if you just broke into someone's house what does that mean at common law yeah common law means the way that like the law originated in england way way back when but was still the valid law in the united states until like in places the 20th century they didn't change shicks they were stupid they had to change ship because they were stupid but like in like in the same kind of olden times where you could not legally be considered to have raped your wife, if you set somebody's house on fire in the daytime, you were fine.

[402] That's the best.

[403] And what?

[404] They said it was a mistake or something?

[405] The thing is, is that all of this...

[406] You weren't being sneaky?

[407] All of it, yes.

[408] It was just like, well, the dude who owned the house really should have been watching it better now, shouldn't it?

[409] Because it was nighttime.

[410] Our assholes.

[411] Yeah, that's right.

[412] And so that's all the law that just exists without us doing any work about it.

[413] and then eventually like state legislatures had to come along and be like well we should do something about this because they keep stealing during the daytime everyone's like but it's tradition and this is how they did it but there's lights at night now that it's 1984 okay um what else do you need like what else do you need for murder oh uh intent so we said intent shit what else steal my aunts did you say intent yes um intent um is a kill somebody.

[414] Okay.

[415] That's another thing.

[416] Okay.

[417] This is the thing we talk about a lot is I think it's fucking insane that attempted murder isn't tried as murder.

[418] Okay.

[419] That's what we're getting towards.

[420] I was just listening to an episode where you were ranting about that.

[421] And so I was I don't rant.

[422] So I was talking about that.

[423] That's hilarious.

[424] So basically there are there are three kinds of crimes where you don't have to do the act.

[425] So the thing is is that like the thing that makes murder murder is that you commit an act, a violent act, that deprive someone of their life.

[426] Right.

[427] And the magic is the difference between depriving someone of their life and not is huge.

[428] Wow.

[429] I could punch the shit out of Stephen right now.

[430] No. And if he like survived, then that would just be battery and assault and I would go to jail for like six months.

[431] Is that because they can't prove your intent?

[432] Or even if you're he was no like the thing is it requires the same intent intent doesn't mean i want to kill stephen if i the exact same punch yeah then it's just like fuck that dude yeah punch and it he's still alive afterwards it's battery and maybe go to jail for like three to six months or something the exact same punch if like um you know it's they call it the um was it glass victim or something delicate stevens syndrome delicate stephen syndrome under delicate stephen syndrome And he goes down and he's dead.

[433] I go to jail for 15 years to life.

[434] Yeah.

[435] Like, it is just...

[436] Just because Stephen's face couldn't take it?

[437] Yes.

[438] It is just that much of a difference.

[439] It's just because he loves cats?

[440] Just because his mustache didn't reflect the fucking touch.

[441] And it's a little bit crazy.

[442] And an attempted murder basically just comes down to, like, attempted murder is something you just kind of, like, tack on top of the fact that it was fundamentally just a battery.

[443] Well, what, okay, but what if you shoot someone in the head and the head and survive?

[444] Or what if you fucking stab someone and leave them for dead and they survive?

[445] Well, I mean, the thing is, is that it is the interesting, you have to, like, suss into a person's head that it was actual attempted murder as opposed to just, like, a battery, and they can probably sue you for a lot of money?

[446] Can we have, like, a point where if you put something killy in someone's body, they fuck, it's fucking, it's a, okay, you're murdering someone.

[447] That is aggravated battery.

[448] It's, uh, use of, I mean, putting something killy, uh, is actually a legal concept.

[449] And it's like, the difference between first degree sexual assault and second degree sexual assault in a lot of states is did you use a killy did you use a killy thing when you were raping her or like in some cases the difference is between like intercourse and just sort of like you know forced sexual assault when the person all of the other things that when consensual are fun but not sex if we say that we're gonna get in trouble for so let's not say it okay yes terrible mean what you just said what no I think I agree Yeah.

[450] No, I don't know.

[451] No, I just mean, like, explaining what the difference is is going to piss someone off because it's such a fucking, it's so, okay.

[452] Yes.

[453] Anyways.

[454] We're just talking about the facts of what it is.

[455] It's not a joke.

[456] So the point is, is that my intent doesn't matter, like my specific intent to kill doesn't matter nearly as much as what happens to Stephen.

[457] And so with attempted murder, it is just the fact that at the end of the day, Stephen's alive, can go to law school one day maybe.

[458] you know, just like...

[459] Really make something of himself?

[460] So there are...

[461] Finally.

[462] No, Stephen, you're fucking...

[463] You're doing really well.

[464] Two other inchoate crimes.

[465] That is, they're not complete.

[466] There's no...

[467] There's not all...

[468] There is an act in them, but not all of the act.

[469] Like, all of the act would mean end up dead.

[470] Yes.

[471] Okay.

[472] They're called solicitation and conspiracy.

[473] Ooh, I like these.

[474] What do you think those things are?

[475] Selling is solicitation.

[476] Okay.

[477] Selling your body.

[478] Solicitation, I think, is trying to get someone to kill someone else?

[479] Yes.

[480] Yeah, dude.

[481] You're like, it's like five and oh right now.

[482] It's almost like I just watch TV all day and read fucking murders all night, which I do.

[483] The thing about solicitation, that's wonderful, is so all you need is the intent to want that crime to occur and an act to get somebody else to do it.

[484] And you are at that point guilty, like the crime that comes or the sentence that comes with solicitation is the same as murder.

[485] is completely the same as murder.

[486] So if you accidentally ask like an undercover cop to kill your husband, it's like you killed your husband.

[487] But what do you mean about accidentally?

[488] Like you undercover cop.

[489] Okay.

[490] The undercover cop was the accident.

[491] You tripped upon a fucking cop in uniform.

[492] Like you fell down into a cop's ear.

[493] Kill me. But the thing is if you said like, God, I love it if Vince weren't around tomorrow, you didn't have intent at that time.

[494] But if you went to an undercover cop and was like, look, Vince has been the worst.

[495] and you like wanted it and meant it then yes you're going to jail for exactly as much as if you had attempted to murder Vince yes I have my hand up um shit oh so does that mean that when you catch a person on tape like if someone calls someone that's it's over like it always seems like in you know forensic files in 2020 it's like the second you make that deal on a phone call so the act so in a murder the act is putting the stabby thing in but in solicitation the act is just the call and the thing is is at that moment it's enough and you are you are an attempted murderer and if the other person did end up murdering the person you're a murderer at that point in time though you're the murderer even if you didn't commit the act thing is you're guilty of solicitation of murder which carries the same punishment as murder now what do you think Conspiracy is.

[496] Conspiracy to commit murder is planning it, but without a hitman?

[497] None of these were like solicitation.

[498] More of a DIY thing.

[499] The thing is, is if, like if you, if you knew that Karen was going to try to.

[500] Everyone is getting hurt in this pocket.

[501] Not in real life.

[502] If you knew that Karen was going to try to kill me and you helped her plan it and figure it out.

[503] Okay.

[504] basically sort of like conversations that are like in the direction of that happening that conversation is enough that when Karen kills me you are all guilty of conspiracy of murder and I can say that well I thought she was kidding I didn't think she was serious and it's for a jury to decide the thing is the um it is for the judge to say if she thought she was kidding legitimately that's not conspiracy for murder is it admissible and it's the juror it's not a question of a misability.

[505] It is a question of just like legally, that's a mistake that absolves you of your mens rea, your mind state, you're in text.

[506] There's my word again.

[507] And so, but it's for the jury to be like, to look Georgia Hartstock in the eye and be like, is she bullshitting us?

[508] And if they think that you're not bullshitting, then you are guilty of the same punishment as murder.

[509] Wow.

[510] Okay.

[511] I'm a hand up again.

[512] Because that, okay, so that is this thing that's now coming up all the time where people are only now realizing that everybody doesn't react the same way so if they look someone in the eye in the courtroom there's a lot of these a crime to remembers where it's like she was icy cold and you know how dare a mother of to be this way therefore she's guilty she didn't burst into tears yeah she didn't act like a woman quote unquote and so she's guilty or whatever so it's that thing where there people are now realizing if a person doesn't act the way you have imagined a person under stress would act or a person that was sad or guilty or, you know, regretful or anything that's like all that projection.

[513] But instead, it's like every individual deals with that situation differently.

[514] When I watch confession or when I watch interview or what's it called when you talk to a perpetrator investiga?

[515] You mean in court?

[516] No, in like the police room.

[517] Interrogation.

[518] Interrogation.

[519] Thank you.

[520] I'm like trying to study that person and every single thing they say, you just can't fucking know.

[521] No. They never look guilty or innocent in a trace boy.

[522] My friend Chris Schlecker is obsessed with if he's ever anywhere remotely near a murder, then they're going to automatically convict him of it because he's not going to react the way that he's supposed to react.

[523] That's right.

[524] He's going to be chilly and all that.

[525] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[526] Absolutely.

[527] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash?

[528] Exactly.

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[545] Goodbye.

[546] Hey, this is exciting.

[547] An all new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on our August 27th.

[548] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster detectives.

[549] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[550] Who killed Saz?

[551] And were they really after Charles?

[552] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[553] This season, murder hits close to home.

[554] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[555] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[556] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[557] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[558] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, Devine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[559] Only Martyrs in the Building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[560] Goodbye.

[561] One of the things that's interesting is that the idea of how a person would behave is an interesting legal standard of how would a reasonable person act.

[562] So the thing is, let's say I was walking, I'm much larger than Georgia, I was walking towards her menacingly, she became terrified and thought I was going to try to kill her, and she bludgeoned me with the Amy Cedarist Crafts book that we just had.

[563] The question for, like, the jury is, A, did she legitimately think I was going to use deadly force against her and b would a reasonable person have thought i was going to use deadly force against her and that question of how does a reason how would a reasonable person react is always so problematic as we saw with like travon martin and so many situations where like we can put our minds into the head of you know uh you know white dude but we can't put our heads into the mind of like black teenager.

[564] So my rule of pepper spray first and apologize later is probably illegal.

[565] No, that's kind of fine because it's non -deadly force.

[566] Right.

[567] That's true.

[568] And non -deadly force, you know, the wonderful thing about pepper spray is the difference between deadly force and non -deadly force is huge.

[569] And if somebody is using non -deadly force against, like if somebody is not trying to kill you.

[570] Right.

[571] They think they're threatened.

[572] And you use and you use any level of non -deadly force, you're fine.

[573] That is self -defense.

[574] That is perfectly good self -defense.

[575] The thing is, you need the other guy, the bad guy, to be attempting to kill you.

[576] Kill or like sexually anything.

[577] You don't know what, you don't know how it's going to.

[578] I mean, the terrible thing about the operation of the law as it exists right now is that it does kind of require that he or she be trying to kill you for you to c c cuck -cill them.

[579] And if it is, the thing is that if, presumably, if somebody was coming at you to sexually assault you and was being very physically intimidating, you understanding that as being deadly force and sort of understanding if I resist him enough, this dude's going to kill me. That's understandable.

[580] The other situation where you're allowed to use deadly force, even if they're not using deadly force, is in your home.

[581] Right.

[582] Some states don't do that, right?

[583] it does very state by state it does very state by state but generally um there you know there is a duty to retreat yeah in uh in a lot of situations but you're by who but like if somebody's coming at you and you have a way of getting away from there you have to you have the duty to retreat i mean the thing is is that like if they're using deadly force against you self -defense is fine but like if you have a clear way out use your clear way out but nobody's expecting you to retreat from your home oh okay like you get to maintain your home.

[584] Okay.

[585] That's so interesting.

[586] That's good to know.

[587] Fucking hide knives everywhere.

[588] That just reminded me of just a quick anecdote.

[589] Do it.

[590] let's get it heavy.

[591] Well, this is just an interesting thing of like being in the home.

[592] And also we were talking earlier about growing up in the country.

[593] My older roommate, Malava, grew up in a town called Auburn, which is like 20 minutes north of Sacramento.

[594] Beautiful.

[595] And just gorgeous.

[596] gorgeous area up in the old gold the gold rush country like red woody kind of thing not red woody because that's closer to the ocean this is more but it's very foresty and hilly and just a lot of houses every house is five miles away from the other house no there's no such thing as real neighbors I don't think I've ever not shared a wall with a neighbor yeah that scares me this might really make you uncomfortable because so one night and they all grew up like that and my friend Maliva told me the story that she um one of her friends it was was home alone as a teenager and got up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night and her parents were like away for the weekend and she stepped into the dark hallway and there was a man standing at the other end of the hallway so she just started making the weirdest noise that she possibly could yes like because she just was like it was just an instantaneous decision where she's like totally alone wherever the gun is she's nowhere near it blah blah blah whatever so she just started like being crazy creepy and it freaked this guy out and he ran out of the house that's so smart isn't that amazing that's so smart because I am so I have this big fear that I'm going to get attacked one day and you know when you can't you're so freaked out you can't scream you know happens a lot in dreams but it actually happens when you just try to scream and your voice is gone because you're so scared like I'm so terrified that that's going to happen whenever I read a murder story where the woman just starts screaming.

[597] I'm so impressed by that.

[598] Right.

[599] Because I think those instincts are just like, and to do that is so impressive.

[600] It's crazy.

[601] And I think it was, it was her following her instinct.

[602] And it's also like, when Malava made the noise for me, I was like, stop making on the noise.

[603] It's really weird, guttural.

[604] It was almost like it being an animal.

[605] But it was almost like she's like, I'm an animal that might attack you.

[606] And chances are, when you think about stuff like that, there was probably a drug addict, like a local drug addict that was just trying to get something he could sell for money for drugs.

[607] And so he's just, just like, I'll just break into this dark house and I'll get this thing and get out.

[608] So he's probably high anyway.

[609] And then seeing some weird thing at the end of the hallway making that noise, like he probably stopped burgling, I like to think.

[610] Having the peace of mind when you're in like probably the most scared situation you're ever going to be in to play on the other person's sense of fear is like, it's just so self -possessed.

[611] It's a very good idea.

[612] How can we, what are other ways we can do that?

[613] Well, like, sometimes when I walk the dogs and I'm scared at night, I'm walking them in the dark and I'll like pass a house and then I'll look into the window and I can see people and then I'm like, oh, oh, maybe I'm the creep.

[614] Like I always think the creep's behind me, but I could be the creep.

[615] I'm sorry, if they're not closing their fucking blinds, then they're asking for it.

[616] Right, but like all it takes is the difference of being a girl walking a dog is like, I just step behind this tree and now I'm the weirdo.

[617] Or the person across the street sees you standing behind a tree looking in a window.

[618] Oh my God.

[619] On a slightly related note, when you're a gay guy walking down the street at night and a woman starts to walk faster or have any of the reactions that are the most normal reaction to a man walking behind you in that way.

[620] It's so funny because I've talked about this with friends.

[621] The inclination to sometimes people I know have started to pretend to have a phone call so that they can have, have, have.

[622] I see it.

[623] Have gay voice.

[624] Oh my God.

[625] Just yell.

[626] I'm gay.

[627] I mean, I most frequently will start singing to myself.

[628] Oh my gosh.

[629] That's pretty crazy, you guys.

[630] To just be like, don't worry.

[631] I thought you were going to say, take the time to criticize her hair.

[632] And then she knows she is not in any day.

[633] Do you guys think, okay.

[634] I have literally.

[635] been in the situation where I giggled at something.

[636] And a woman's physical behavior on a street was just like, oh, I'm fine.

[637] Yeah.

[638] She's like, actually, sir, can you walk me to my car on a free time?

[639] That's insane.

[640] Do you think, I always think, like, if I acknowledge someone and smile at them and say hello or whatever, that it's, I'm letting them know that I am aware of my surroundings.

[641] And so I'll stop and get my phone out and let the person pass me and say hello to them and like not yes can i just say this i just was did i tell you about that book that i got and it's called like um the spy's way of of like shoot i need to remember the correct name shoot that's so cute oh shoot um it's called like he was basically a CIA agent and he it's a book it's like a total plain read that i read where it's just a list of ways to stay safe oh my god i need it yeah i'll give it to you It's really, really good.

[642] But I basically skipped to, the whole thing was like an environment awareness.

[643] And he's like, I would throw everyone's phone away if I could.

[644] Yeah.

[645] Because people go into this thing where they think because this thing has a priority and they're so interested in it that the world they're shutting out is shutting them out.

[646] When actually it makes you a target when you are clearly like being mesmerized by this thing in your hand and you don't have environmental awareness.

[647] So like when you're, you have to, you don't have to do anything.

[648] but when you're walking down the street the best thing to do is be looking around be making eye contact confidently making eye contact with people and just being and also being able to look at a person being like I see you there like I have a phone in my hand that I can do something with but also I see you there and like are you going to come at me is a way better approach because that's you're basically it's kind of like alpha dogging and just being like this is my area and this is I'm not a victim this is like I mean I literally carry my pepper spray in those situations like walking down the street in the dark whatever yeah yeah or like walking like like when something just feels off sometimes I'll just walk with it in my hand yeah I don't know I know I'm fucking paranoid as shit but like but that's what it's for really so yeah it's what I can't recommend being a creepily gigantic man enough it's amazing how tall are you you're like six three oh my god although last week I was in I was in Bloomington Indiana and I went to I went to the gay bar in Bloomington Indiana and I went to the address gay bar I love that that's just one and I looked in and there were like men playing pool and like couples together and I was like oh this is not a gay bar what's going on because if there are men playing pool you're in the wrong place so I went in and I was like hey I thought where's the back door and They were like, oh, you have to go around through an alley.

[649] The back way.

[650] To a windowless, like, it's just like it.

[651] It's a gay bar from the time when gay bars couldn't have window.

[652] Like, gay bars were about having a good time while hiding.

[653] I like that he, I like that he knew what you meant.

[654] Yes.

[655] I wouldn't.

[656] But the experience of, like, walking through that alley and being like, oh, like how many people have been beaten here.

[657] Oh, yeah.

[658] You know.

[659] Or it's almost like it's a shameful thing.

[660] that you have to walk through this place and no one wants to go.

[661] That's awful.

[662] I mean, it's like the old school way of things, but it is, it's the closest I can come to kind of understanding what it's like for you guys anytime it's dark when you're going to your car of like, here's this alley where somebody could wait to just like hit you with a baseball bat or something like it's not even at night.

[663] It's all day too.

[664] Like I won't walk down certain alleys during the day because it's just.

[665] Don't walk down alleys.

[666] Yeah.

[667] No, they're dirty and they're for garbage men.

[668] they're not for girls garbage men not sanitation workers is what you're saying that's right men of garbage level humanity i want to clear that up because i sanitation workers are very respectable oh but they're just i also meant their truck goes through that alley real fast that's where the garbage cans are a lot of the time got it got it got it got but also shitty dudes there was one final topic i want to discuss with you guys all right okay so one of one of the ways of sort of like saying something is not murder is just sort of saying that the right um state of mind wasn't there um and what well first of all just what manslaughter is is when you didn't intend to do something that you made a mistake and you did it you were negligent so like any essentially anything you do in a car not murder it is like in the state of california i think there is a really strong presumption that anything you do in a car is not like you wouldn't want to kill someone with your car yeah like you wouldn't be trying to kill someone with your car.

[669] Like, if you shoot someone in a car, I'm not talking about that.

[670] Don't be crazy.

[671] Right.

[672] But just sort of like, you know, an accident is an accident.

[673] But again, like, I don't know why I'm targeting all of this towards Georgia.

[674] Because of your attempt obsession.

[675] The difference between I hit somebody with my car and I hit somebody with my car and then it killed them is I accidentally hit someone with my car and then I killed them is you're going to jail for eight years.

[676] Dude, I knew a guy who fucking was...

[677] Wait, sorry, sorry.

[678] I accidentally hit someone with my car and then it killed them.

[679] You're going to jail?

[680] You're going to jail.

[681] Yeah.

[682] That's manslaughter.

[683] You've committed manslaughter.

[684] Even though it was an accident.

[685] Which is why don't fucking drive even if you're buzzed?

[686] Because can you imagine two drinks and you drive and you accidentally kill someone?

[687] I didn't realize that's what you were saying.

[688] Yes.

[689] That's horrifying.

[690] And there is an actual level of that where there are things that you are doing that are accidents, but are so dickishly stupid that they're called depraved heart and so they're either called depraved heart manslaughter or in some states that's enough for murder that like...

[691] I think I know a dude that that happened to like...

[692] What's the example though?

[693] I went out onto my balcony and I shot my machine gun just into space because I thought it was hilarious I just drove my car into a farmer's market because I thought it would be funny like...

[694] Nobody does.

[695] That's not funny at all.

[696] So I know a dude he was fucking high on meth there was a fucking traffic on the freeway, and he decides to fucking gun it in the, next to the fast lane, like the pull -off lane, some fucking people had broken down in that lane, and he comes around a curve and hits them, and they fucking, I cannot, it's been 15 years when I can't forget it.

[697] That's completely depraved heart.

[698] And it's that thing.

[699] It's horrifying.

[700] Yeah, he went to prison for a long time.

[701] The very interesting thing that for a long time, I got so drunk or I got so stoned, just meant that you had been negligent and not that you had in, tent, but like if you were, does that make sense?

[702] So is it now, does it now mean that?

[703] Like, basically it would now probably be construed as depraved heart.

[704] Like, you just, you got yourself into a situation where you knew it was possible that you were, might drive into somebody like that.

[705] Well, that's that thing where like I lived through, I think we all lived through the time where we watched drunk driving become a bad thing.

[706] Yes.

[707] Which is hilariously insane now.

[708] But like, it was when I was 10 or 12 years old I remember the it was I think it was a made for TV movie where like and it's a true story of the drunk driver who had been arrested for drunk driving eight times and then that he does it it's the ninth but never went to jail it was like here's your ticket ticket ticket he comes over the hill it's the it's the story of the woman who founded mothers against drunk driving I remember that TV movie her kids walking in the middle of the street over a hill he's drunk he plows down two girls I think and yeah and that's when they were like no more of this fucking businessman who had a great lunch and sorry everybody bullshit you would think that they could that the parents could sue the city for that for never having punished him for all the eight fucking DUIs he already had I think now they do stuff like that but like back then it was like oh but we all drink and drive yeah you interestingly can't sue a city for things like that because of a thing called sovereign immunity where unless the state like when the state is acting like a business like when they're running like oh we take your garbage away or we're making power that stuff you can sue them over but we did the stuff that like only a state can do like we criminally prosecute like we failed at prosecuting them or whatever it's like you treat them the same way you would the king of just like no they're fine.

[709] Fucking police state motherfucker.

[710] What's interesting?

[711] No, I'm kidding.

[712] Four or against?

[713] I mean, I think we're fine right now.

[714] I mean, and we are cruising towards a police state in the near future.

[715] In 2017, we're fucked.

[716] Let's work against is what we're saying.

[717] Interesting as the first, like, as we get more texting while driving, the thing is it's like texting while driving, probably negligent.

[718] Driving while watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills on your phone?

[719] Depraved heart.

[720] Who does that?

[721] I feel like watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills is to Brave Tart anyway.

[722] It took me too long to say that.

[723] No, it was good, though.

[724] Thank you.

[725] Can you think of any other way of getting rid of somebody's state of mind?

[726] First of all, you're the best teacher I've ever had.

[727] I know anything asked questions.

[728] I'm so sorry.

[729] I'm being so law school about this.

[730] But you're the one, you know all the answers.

[731] No, this is the best.

[732] Brat.

[733] Can we think of another way?

[734] Of, like, obviating the, um, the...

[735] You can't say words like that.

[736] I don't know that.

[737] Of sort of removing the state of mind as one of the elements.

[738] Drugs?

[739] Elements.

[740] Same thing as...

[741] Drugs is basically the sort of lowering it to negligence the way that we talked before.

[742] Oh, mentally capacitated.

[743] Mentally incapacitated.

[744] Except I said mentally capacitated.

[745] What's mentally capacitated about?

[746] Not me. Okay.

[747] So there are cool defenses, like South defense is a great defense, but there are cool defenses like duress.

[748] Dress.

[749] I'm always under duress.

[750] Yes.

[751] He had my child and he told me the only way he would let my child.

[752] out is if, you know, I shot this person.

[753] Does that work for cats too?

[754] Because I was fucking kill a bitch if they had my cat.

[755] Okay.

[756] Based on the things that I have told you, what do you think the standard would be?

[757] What's the standard again?

[758] Based on the things you've told us.

[759] Karen and I are great students.

[760] I flunked out of a state school.

[761] I went to community college and just fucking left.

[762] How do we determine whether is threatening a cat enough?

[763] for it to be duress on Georgia Hardstock.

[764] Oh.

[765] Because I'm in love and you can tell.

[766] I have a fucking, if you have an Instagram and there's photos with this thing on it, then you can fucking kill someone.

[767] If she cradles the cat like a baby every night.

[768] Okay.

[769] So that is proof that Georgia actually felt like that would be terrible.

[770] Yes.

[771] But you also have to ask.

[772] Oh, so I can do it?

[773] You also have to ask what a reasonable person kill the secretary of the interior to save their cat.

[774] I would do it.

[775] Just someone, go ahead and say, this is going to be in my choice.

[776] trial.

[777] But the other more interesting thing is like mental state.

[778] And so I just wanted to talk about a little bit about not guilty by reason of insanity.

[779] How much does that actually come up in these horrible, horrible people that you guys discuss?

[780] The things I've been learning and reading about is that a lot of people try it and it's really easy to fucking, it's really easy to disprove it.

[781] And the reality is it's really fucking hard to prove it.

[782] It's an, it's a, it's always an extreme case now you can't just it's not it's not as easy as people think it's going to be it's the the guy that um in canada i believe winnipeg um took the machete to the other guy's head on the bus the province of wednesday the cannibal episode no winnipeg is a city i was thinking fun of you don't do that is winnipeg in manitoba yes it is is this the cannibal episode uh no not Cannibal.

[783] It's just the guy that went crazy on the Greyhound bus, remember?

[784] And he killed the guy sitting next to him and then just went crazy and...

[785] But didn't he eat a little bit of him?

[786] Yes, you're right.

[787] And we had a cannibal episode in order for time you to do themes.

[788] That's right.

[789] He ended up, it was by reason of insanity because he was technically, he was, I believe, schizophrenic, but not taking his medication because he, it was, it was like his family was basically judging him for being schizophrenic.

[790] you can't be crazy.

[791] But based on that, though, like, if you're schizophrenic and you stop taking your meds, aren't you responsible for that?

[792] Like, you can't just stop taking your meds and kill someone.

[793] Tell us everything.

[794] That's the same question.

[795] This is a 32 -part question.

[796] It's been super hard.

[797] Also, have you guys done the Florida kid who ate the people in the garage yet?

[798] Bass salts?

[799] I believe it was bath salts.

[800] ate the face?

[801] Or was he on steroids?

[802] I don't know.

[803] There's a guy on a highway, right?

[804] He ate it in a garage.

[805] It may have been bath salts, but there's footage of him walking out of an applebees looking really weird.

[806] I mean, who doesn't look at weird when I walk out of an applebees?

[807] Took me too long to say that.

[808] Save it for year 15.

[809] Anyway, so basically there have been like a couple of big theories about how do we figure out, is this person crazy enough?

[810] And the first one, like, started when a guy tried to kill the prime minister of Britain.

[811] And it's called the McNaughton rule, which was the...

[812] rule for like a really long time and that comes down to you could they not tell the difference between right and wrong which is like that's sort of like the classic question and it's also so weirdly subjective yeah and like in the 60s we started moving towards this new thing called the Durham test um which was trying to be cool and scientific and more understanding of things and they uh the question was was this a result of your mental illness was the act a result of your mental illness.

[813] And then the president got shot.

[814] Oh, right.

[815] Oh, yeah.

[816] Remember that?

[817] For Jody Foster?

[818] Yes.

[819] And what's his name said, Not Reason by Guilty of Insanity.

[820] And under the Durham test, he was judged, not guilty by reason of insanity.

[821] And then every fucking state came back and passed laws that were like, fuck you, Durham test.

[822] And so, like, some of them went back to the McDonnell rule.

[823] some of the way in the direction of this thing called the irresistible impulse test that sounds like a new Avon perfume which is it's kind of fruity with a but stinks of bullshit a touch of blood irresistible impulse is kind of that guy like the question is just the classic question is if there was a police officer standing by your elbow would you still do it and like Manitoba bus guy just feels like yeah no no he absolutely was convinced he had that that guy was like had a demon inside of him and he had to kill him that that's a really great question yeah and like you're in this other world and it doesn't matter who's at your elbow they're on your side you know the cop's on your side and your fucking yeah you're trying to protect that cop right is essentially the mentality it's and and that that also goes towards that magnatine idea of like can you just not tell the difference between right and wrong.

[824] But it's like I have to like you know you got molested as a kid until you think that's okay and you molest another your kid it's like that's right that's what you're supposed to be doing in a fucking pedophile's mind.

[825] The thing is is like a it's at this point in time it's super super hard to get a not guilty by reason of insanity and then there's also the thing of like even if you do not guilty by reason of insanity you're going to a mental hospital for what should be forever like what should be until you're cured cured though you guys recently had a horrifying story was it recent or i just listened to it recently we don't remember anything of somebody who went somebody who got a not guilty by reason of insanity and then got out like within a year all of them well i feel like it was i think it was a little bit longer than year, but our Greyhound bus guy is free now.

[826] Oh, right.

[827] Is free now in Canada.

[828] It's so charming.

[829] Yeah.

[830] And also, like, I always think of like mental facilities.

[831] We're like, can I fucking go there for a week, please?

[832] But it's not like a yoga retreat.

[833] This is a fucking, like, shitty.

[834] Well, also, they don't exist anymore.

[835] That's true.

[836] They don't.

[837] A friend of mine went to a women's jail in Japan.

[838] Oh, my God.

[839] I always just imagine that is the most amazing spa.

[840] I just imagine.

[841] Was it all Hello Kitty stuff?

[842] Oh my God.

[843] Fish and rice three times a day.

[844] Oh my God.

[845] Light exercise.

[846] Like quiet.

[847] Tope linen clothing.

[848] Very quiet.

[849] Shiseido facial bar.

[850] Oh my God.

[851] You're just, there's a lot of exfoliating and gorgeous skin.

[852] Oh, the hair is just luscious.

[853] We're dicks.

[854] But it's so small.

[855] It's like a small cube.

[856] Oh.

[857] Yeah, I mean like my mom.

[858] mom was a psychiatric nurse, a head nurse at a mental hospital, and when Proposition 13 passed, and they closed most of the mental health facilities in California.

[859] And I think across the nation, I can't remember what if it was 13 was just California.

[860] Yeah, it was California.

[861] But it was something that has declined.

[862] Like, I think the Reagan administration cut funding for mental health and released a bunch of people.

[863] That's why there's a homeless fucking epidemic.

[864] It's because these are all people who should be in mental health facilities.

[865] They should be taken care of.

[866] And medicated and instead.

[867] So that kind of thing where these days, if it's not guilty by reason of insanity, where do they send people?

[868] I mean, there are just like deeply overbooked state mental hospitals and some that are, I believe, specifically structured for people who have committed crimes.

[869] Oh, okay.

[870] So it's like a wing at a prison almost.

[871] Yeah.

[872] Oh, oh.

[873] Yeah.

[874] I think California has that.

[875] a fulsome I think has is where the sort of like mentally ill people who have committed crimes let's go there right now let's do a fulsome trip you know what's funny my mom you also I may be totally wrong about that and let's just remember I went to law school 16 years ago this is my favorite murder where being wrong is so right I was just going to say really quick there's a there's a maximum security it's a super max prison called Pelican Bay that's up in way northern California and my mom used to go with her friend um this is mannwiller i can't remember her first name uh because mrs mannwiller was the kind of nurse as i think she was also a psychiatric nurse and she would go there and give like tests to the um residents for some reason i can't remember what she was doing my god i want to talk to her so bad my mom would just go along and stay at the hotel like read a book and then they would like go to a fun dinner or i'm like you're intentionally going to Pelican Bay where like it's basically all about this super max prison it's where they put it's her vacay it was her vacay that's right and she was like oh course I'll go I'll just go up there with her they have this great Italian place and meanwhile inside the prison are like all it's all the Hannibal Lectors of of like California but she didn't have to deal with you and your sister for a night it's so true so true when I was in law school and Minnesota they took us to go see the prisons and it's a weird thing of like I'm from California where we have so like we should have so many of these things a Minnesota was basically just like there are two maximum security prisons and one of them was like 1800s clink kind of like that thing and one of them was like Oz like state of the art state of the art there's like a bubble where you can run the whole place from there and they were making like kindergarten mats.

[876] That was the thing that they did was they made little mats for kindergartners.

[877] Oh, nice.

[878] And it was, you know, terrifying.

[879] It was legit terrifying to see what life there would be like.

[880] Well, we talked about this when we were both watching the night of.

[881] We talk about it all the time how it's like we want people that do horrible things to be locked away forever and no sentence seems long enough and all that stuff.

[882] Then you watch the night of and you're like four minutes as a prisoner inside of in any of those places.

[883] is an absolute horror show nightmare.

[884] Like, then you start, it makes me think about it.

[885] The complexity of when you get, you know, when you actually get found guilty for a crime like that and you go away for 11 years because you did this thing and you literally are delivered into the bowels of hell and hopefully you stay alive, like, that does count for something.

[886] We always want it to be 50 years or whatever, but, like, is 11 years enough when it's that level of suffering and fear and constant horror?

[887] Yeah, but what did you do to your victims that they had a similar experience?

[888] That's private.

[889] What I did to my victim.

[890] No, I know.

[891] No, absolutely.

[892] But it's also, like, that's why I'm also so interested in, like, cases where it's like, did they get the right guy?

[893] Because the thought of walking in there and being like, I have 11 years, and I didn't fucking do this.

[894] There's nothing more horrifying than those stories of, yeah, I was in there for, seven years and then they got the DNA like technology to figure out I couldn't have remotely done this that's a hundred years more you know it's not seven years it's fucking dog years it's I hate those stories so much wrongly accused is like it's just how do you convince people so in that situation you can sue for deprivation of your civil rights I think if you can show sort of like misconduct on the part of the or just sort of like failure to do their jobs properly.

[895] Their due diligence?

[896] Yes, on the part of prosecution.

[897] And so like if someone else gets caught and convicted, then you can, you can, like if they find someone else's DNA and they let you go, it's one thing.

[898] But if they find someone else's DNA and they find that person and convict them, that you probably have more leeway.

[899] Well, what you would do is if they find DNA that relates to your case, then you would, there's a thing called, like, a habeas corpus act where...

[900] Is it like Menzies?

[901] Oh my God, I got my Menzies on my habeas corpus day.

[902] habeas corpus is just, it means like present the body.

[903] And the thing is that's a...

[904] Proof, sexy.

[905] A direct, like a direct thing where you get to go to an appeals court and say, like, look, this means there's no possible.

[906] way he did it and like those are the things that like people in jail are constantly trying to like pursue themselves and you get occasional TV movies about the one guy who managed to like get himself out.

[907] The Innocence Project tries to do too right?

[908] Right.

[909] And don't you think that Beyonce should record a song called present the body?

[910] Where the chorus was...

[911] And then like in parentheses it's habeas carpet.

[912] That's right.

[913] Exactly.

[914] Or the chorus, yeah.

[915] Havius chorus.

[916] So you should be, I mean I mean, if there is DNA evidence of that sort, you should be doing a better job of getting yourself out there than the state is doing of prosecuting somebody else.

[917] Like, it's on you.

[918] Like, it's on, it's, it's on you, but also it should be able to happen quicker, I would think, than the state going and trying to get that other person.

[919] From jail?

[920] From, I'm, we're saying there's an innocent person in jail.

[921] and there is a person out there who actually committed the crime that like the minute they find the DNA that couldn't possibly be yours then your lawyer can file a habeas corpus and um you know the like the police will be or whoever it is will in the DNA experts will all be like nope nope nope nope and you can get that done and it seems like finding the person and all of that who actually didn't it would be a longer process than the habeas corpus.

[922] Okay.

[923] I don't understand.

[924] That's a lot.

[925] I don't know that I understand.

[926] You sounded real smart just now.

[927] Sorry, are you just saying, as opposed to finding the guilty man, it's just proving it's not you?

[928] It's just proving it's not you.

[929] Okay, got it.

[930] And like, it was just that, yeah, George's question was like, basically, can there be two people in jail for the same murder?

[931] at the same time and kind of no. Oh, got it.

[932] Unless they were like collaborated on it.

[933] Oh, what about the, um, the guy who eventually got prosecuted by the army?

[934] Oh, yeah.

[935] Did you hear that one?

[936] That's the crazy when we started talking about double jeopardy.

[937] But I mean, anytime, I'll just say a thing where I'm like, I'm pretty sure this is the word I should be saying, but I can't have like a debate about it because I don't really know what I'm talking about.

[938] But it was, you know, you know it.

[939] He got tried and convicted of a triple home.

[940] homicide that got overturned and he got and he was declared innocent then they found years later it's the summerland road murders and then years later they found DNA you know once DNA technology was around um tying him to the murders and so because they couldn't uh try him for double jeopardy because of double jeopardy because he'd already been convicted and then deemed innocent um he had been in the army at the time and so they reinstated him and then he was tried by one of the Army people.

[941] I don't know what's it called.

[942] N .C .I .S. Mark Harmon?

[943] Yeah.

[944] That's because those are different laws.

[945] And different jurisdictions.

[946] No, because there are different laws because they're different jurisdictions.

[947] But isn't that so that doesn't count as double jeopardy if the Army steps in and is like we're going to try it over here?

[948] Yes, because he violated a different law for committing murder, while a member of the army.

[949] Or if he had crossed state lines with a kidnapped victim, then the FBI or the U .S. could try him, right?

[950] Yeah, so it's an interesting thing that, like, you can't, I don't think you can be convicted of, like, can you be convicted of both federal and state murder?

[951] Federal, that's the word.

[952] If they are, if it is both a federal and state murder, I would think so because there is a different requirement, but there is this thing where if all of the elements of your crime are also all of the elements of a different crime, you can't be convicted for both of them.

[953] So like going back to me, going back to me punching Stephen.

[954] Uh -oh.

[955] I'm going back to that.

[956] What if Stephen sues you just for this example?

[957] Threaten.

[958] All of the things that I did to punch Stephen were battery.

[959] but they were in the situation where I killed him it was also murder which means if you prosecute me for murder and I am convicted of murder I cannot be convicted of the battery that was you know that was part of it so with that I assume the thing is that like the failure was on the part of like the state law like because there was clearly some sort of technical failure in prosecuting it under the state law you he cannot be retried under the state but all of the facts still occurred.

[960] I just wonder like as science and technology advances should double jeopardy like depend on compelling evidence?

[961] You know when we someday can can use DNA in the fucking 90s wasn't what it is today in the early 2000s.

[962] And so there's so many cases that they're going to find something bigger in 2025 when we know more.

[963] And it is so hard.

[964] It is very, very hard when we constantly have new technology that gives us more information.

[965] And when you tried somebody under what, like, criminal research was in 1984, you want to have another stab at it in 2016.

[966] Right.

[967] But I believe in the idea of like, no, you get, like, statute of limitations, let's deal with it now.

[968] Yeah.

[969] And you kind of have to deal with it under the terms of now.

[970] And you can't go back and, and it's hard with things like cold cases and stuff like that.

[971] And it's also up to the prosecution to decide if they actually have a case that they can win.

[972] So if you don't, then you should fucking wait until you do.

[973] Which is why they don't try a lot of weight, though.

[974] Non -body.

[975] But, like, except.

[976] It's one of your rights, right?

[977] Yeah.

[978] Except for the fact that you've got the, yeah, speedy trial.

[979] But the thing is, is speedy trial only starts once they arrest you.

[980] I think don't arrest someone until you.

[981] Yeah.

[982] And the thing that's interesting is like, we knew she was dead in 1967.

[983] But if we get information that says, oh, so -and -so did it in 2016, then you can go and get that guy.

[984] It's not like statute of limitations has told because um, wait has it?

[985] I don't know.

[986] I get it.

[987] It's murder.

[988] Yeah.

[989] Not if it's right.

[990] Never for murder.

[991] Never for murder.

[992] Yeah.

[993] Um, but yeah.

[994] So like you just kind of have to wait until you have enough stuff that is a case.

[995] Yeah.

[996] Fuck man. Yeah.

[997] Fuck.

[998] Wow.

[999] Um, funny.

[1000] No, it's not fun.

[1001] This is horrifying.

[1002] I've forgotten so much about this stuff.

[1003] You were amazing.

[1004] Welcome to our world.

[1005] I'm sorry for all of your listeners.

[1006] You were like, wait, what?

[1007] There's only 500 lawyers out there that listen to this.

[1008] This is terrible.

[1009] Also, all of...

[1010] Also, the worst part about this is that I love giggling to myself about Karen calling Winnipeg a province or Manitoba a city.

[1011] But now you're going to get all of the lawyers writing for millions of listeners.

[1012] Have you seen her fucking listen?

[1013] is they send a sweet honesty shit.

[1014] They're going to make a quilt about how I got the law wrong.

[1015] No, what's going to happen is someone's going to make a meme of a quilt and it's adorable and charming and everyone loves it.

[1016] No, I think this is so satisfying because basically for a year straight we've been throwing out what we think and kind of with the intention of like, we'll probably get back around to this and have an answer eventually or whatever.

[1017] And arguing like, well, this is not arguing with each other.

[1018] but saying like, this should be this way.

[1019] And it's like, well, here's why it's not that way.

[1020] Right.

[1021] I like that.

[1022] And the thing is, I do, like, after law school, I was just so terrified every time I got behind the wheel of a car.

[1023] Please let me not kill someone this time.

[1024] Yes.

[1025] Now I will be that way too.

[1026] But the paranoia of like, once you're in the criminal justice system, it is so horrifying and they have the right to take your life away from you that I do, like, however annoying it may seem, I do really believe in all of those little constitutional things.

[1027] that are like, if you don't do it all right, then this person has to go, like, this person gets off.

[1028] And watching the Supreme Court kind of like scrape away at some of those things, like, it used to be, if anything remotely like unconsure had happened in like searching for something, that evidence was the fruit of the poisonous tree and could never be used.

[1029] And they've started to be a little bit more, yeah, even though you didn't have a warrant for him, it's fine that you got that.

[1030] And that terrifies me, even though it's finding people who actually are guilty, mostly of drug crimes and stuff like that, I'm just like, I want all of the protections I can have so that the state can't throw me away forever.

[1031] That's right.

[1032] I think ultimately that's the thing.

[1033] It's like once when we start talking about, because we are talking about cases most of the time, we're talking about cases where we know the person did it.

[1034] So then when we opine, it's with a passion of, God damn it.

[1035] These people have their lives taken away by this person who we know is bad because it's been proven.

[1036] Somebody else did all the work and we just get to say, yes, get rid of this person because they got rid of other people and that sucks.

[1037] But when we get into those cases where it's a question mark, you still have the same feelings of bad people should pay for ruining us.

[1038] other people's lives.

[1039] Well, it's interesting guy that you think of it from your side of like, um, of the, of being the person who's prosecuted where I think of it as being the victim and like all the little things that I'll need to do.

[1040] Like I save my, I have all of my like, um, uh, day planners from the past like five years.

[1041] So if I ever need to say where I am or what I was doing or like testify for somebody else or, you know, like if I use my credit card, every time I use my credit card at a fucking, uh, parking meter, I think, okay, well, this is going to be a trail of where I was that day in case something happens.

[1042] Well, it goes both ways, though, because it also could be a trail of something that proves you were at a parking meter instead of, it like...

[1043] Yeah, I don't think about that.

[1044] I'm a white fucking female.

[1045] Like, I'm not, I don't need to worry as much.

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] Yeah, and I mean, it is that situation of, like, I'm just not scared of incidental crime in the same way.

[1048] Like, somebody might rob me, you know, or like there is random sort of I'm also just not I'm not the most bashable gay guy so I feel like you're almost unbashable Pau -paharan let's not say that yeah that's true but it is like the I think there's maybe like more randomness to the kind of crime and like why somebody might murder me than for for women you know like we're always a vulnerable yeah matter what um but but also the thing of the weird thing about reading those cases and listening to your stuff is realizing that somebody can just like bounce into your world and for no reason cause such horror and pain for just for something that doesn't even make sense to me and it's a shockwave of your family and friends and fucking peripheral people in your, it's just, it pisses me off so much that these fucking assholes can take away so much by just having a fucking random feeling to kill someone.

[1049] Or drug addiction.

[1050] Or drug addiction.

[1051] So often is just the dumbest, like they were on meth and they didn't know what they were doing or they were on meth and it made them this crazy violent or whatever where it's just like, but there's all these people that don't do meth and live, you know, live.

[1052] legal lives.

[1053] Well, I mean, the things where I do get into the mindset of the victim are more sort of like the evidentiary things of like, if this person's not around, we don't get to rely on the fact that they can't, you know, that you're allowed to admit hearsay evidence for a dead person because they can't testify on their behalf.

[1054] And you think it's not fair?

[1055] No, I think it's a wonderful, the best thing.

[1056] Like, there are parts of the law that like feel like, magic that really are just like such old ancient magic and my favorite one is the die your dying utterance is always admissible no yes your what so your dying utterance is like is because the thing is like it's that's the name this episode it's dying utterance it's hearsay so hearsay is something somewhat you can't testify about stuff that somebody told you you can only testify about stuff that you, like, experienced yourself.

[1057] Fuck, though.

[1058] But when it is your dying utterance, because there's no you around anymore, like, that is always admissible.

[1059] And at least just to be considered.

[1060] Yes.

[1061] It doesn't mean, like, it does, it's just, like, throw that in there with everything else.

[1062] Why is that?

[1063] Why is, okay, so my sister says to me, I'm really scared that my husband's going to kill me. That, and I say that, and she gets killed and I say that, that's hearsay.

[1064] yes it's hearsay but hearsay is admissible some of the time okay but if you were as she was dying leaned over and she said it in your ear he's the one that did it that seems like okay that's fair but that seems like the opposite of how it should be like she's been telling me this shit for years okay well the thing is is like um after your brother -in -law testifies about stuff about how things were fine Andy I love you I know you're not a market yeah I know we have to say that I just really that was like that you're the example sounds like yeah not i don't mean that you're allowed i mean there is something about how um hearsay from dead people there's a separate rule about hearsay from dead people being more admissible but also you can admit hearsay to impeach his testimony so if he says things were fine right beth and i had the best of relationships then we can bring georgia to the stand and georgia says okay uh she told me 19 times and i wrote them down on the little pad in my kitchen and you have a little pad from your kitchen is also admissible.

[1065] Okay.

[1066] That makes sense.

[1067] I like that.

[1068] And also emails these days, which last forever.

[1069] So wonderful.

[1070] I'm keeping a fucking pad in my kitchen from now on and I'm writing down every time anything happens.

[1071] Good idea.

[1072] Yeah, and then you can write a book.

[1073] It's just deep.

[1074] Just intense detail of every single thing that happens to you.

[1075] My mom has a situation that Karen kind of knows about.

[1076] um that's just like um where she there might come a situation where she needs to testify about something and she's always just like well i put it on my pad she's just got this i i wrote it down god that's all you need she really does that yes oh my god that's hilarious that's why i keep my my um my my daily calendars is like i'll remember something if i see that i went to this fucking doctor or whatever that year or that day i mean having documents for stuff is just so exciting from perspective you do discovery that means the other side gets a copy of your calendar so so so so many copies oh i went to court reporting school for a year i think i could pretend to know this shit i would actually say too that in almost like the inverted version of this that i think of is like in my family there was a ton of death when i was young and it was all a lot of it like surprising and one after the other and that's when i just decided i'm going to do what i fucking want Because when we talk about the random stuff or when we talk about being a woman and walking with fear at night or whatever it is, it's this thing where any, this, that is the deal of life.

[1077] That is what being born into this life, that's the situation.

[1078] It's the same, you know, it's different for different people for different reasons.

[1079] But in general, we are all constantly at risk.

[1080] We all have the specter of death hanging over us all the time.

[1081] It's why some people love true crime.

[1082] it's why some people love to paint it's why some people can't stop jogging whatever the fuck it is but ultimately I feel like I had this kind of weird realization as a young child who's like this fucking sucks and it could end it any second well the thing of like it could be somebody with a machete on a bus or the amount of potassium in your sister yeah exactly so like so then why not be like oh sorry I meant to tell you I'm totally in love with you or why not go do stand -up comedy that you're scared to death of doing But why not do it?

[1083] Because it's the thing in your heart that you want to do.

[1084] Like, you might as well, this is your one fucking shot.

[1085] And you can sit there lining up all the things that are the reasons why you should be scared.

[1086] Or you can go, well, I should be really scared because this whole situation is really scary.

[1087] So why be scared about the one thing I really want to do?

[1088] Why not just fucking do it then?

[1089] 26.

[1090] That's 2017.

[1091] That's 2017, baby.

[1092] 2017 is how Karen is doing it.

[1093] And everybody else, if you would like to join me. How long have we been talking eight hours?

[1094] So long.

[1095] Should we each do one murder from our cards?

[1096] Our true crime cards?

[1097] Yes.

[1098] Draw a murder like it's tarot cards.

[1099] All right.

[1100] I have a stack of these true crime playing cards that Stephen, Stephen Ray Morris gave us last week.

[1101] We're each going to draw one.

[1102] Okay.

[1103] And we're going to read about it.

[1104] And it's just fucking, it's just like playing cards and it's murder.

[1105] Oh, sure.

[1106] shit, you guys.

[1107] All right.

[1108] I'm going to do one.

[1109] Oh, my God.

[1110] Oh, my God, my God, my God.

[1111] Okay, who wants to go first?

[1112] Karen, you sound excited.

[1113] She goes last?

[1114] Guy seems disheartened.

[1115] Guy, do you want to re -chew?

[1116] Wait, hold on.

[1117] I think this might be what...

[1118] No, hold on.

[1119] What I said last?

[1120] No. It's the McNaughton rules.

[1121] Oh.

[1122] I fucking just pulled the card.

[1123] Dido -de -do -de -do -de -do -de -do -d -d -d -d - That's crazy.

[1124] Okay, let me read this.

[1125] The McNaughton rules.

[1126] we'll just we'll double check your work in 1843 Daniel McNaughton a Glasgow woodworker shot the secretary to the British Prime Minister.

[1127] Holy shit!

[1128] What the fuck?

[1129] Ooh guys I have tingly tingles right now.

[1130] I have five packages of these and this is the one we open and that's the one you fucking I wasn't looking they were upside down.

[1131] This is not thing.

[1132] What is happening in life?

[1133] He had intended to kill the Prime Minister but was unclear as to his appearance at his trial McNaughton suffering from delusions of persecution proclaimed the Tory's route to get him.

[1134] The jury found him to be insane and not responsible for the magnitude of his crime.

[1135] He was to be sent to an institution.

[1136] Concerned Parliament members convened a panel of judges to explain this.

[1137] Their answer forms the McNaughton rules, which are this.

[1138] Jurors are to be informed that the accused is presumed to be sane, as he or she is presumed to be innocent, to establish a defense on the basis of insanity the accused must be disturbed enough to not know the nature and quality of what he or she did or if knowing it to know it was wrong.

[1139] Further, if the accused labors under partial delusion only, he or she must be considered in the sane situation as to responsibility, as if the facts with respect to the delusion were real.

[1140] These British rules commonly called the insanity defense have been adopted in America and Canada, and have been tested hundreds of times since their inception in the cases of a serial killer such as Ted Bundy, Edward Gein, I like when they call him Edward, Kenneth Bianchi and Jeffrey Dahmer.

[1141] The atrocities committed have led defense lawyers to attempt to prove insanity while this strategy was successful in the case of the obviously dysfunctional gine.

[1142] Most such defenses prove futile because the sociopathic personality, while deviant in his desires, is often not.

[1143] not out of touch with reality, and jurors usually decide that a killer functional enough to hide his or her crimes can be presumed to be aware of wrongdoing.

[1144] And I would just like to say that these are true crime series.

[1145] This is from True Crime Series 4, serial killers and mass murderers by Valerie Jones and Peggy Collier.

[1146] Ladies.

[1147] And the art is by Paul Lee, Eclipse Enterprises, just in case any of you wants to talk.

[1148] Oh, it's in Forestville, which is right by Petaluma.

[1149] Who is Ed Gein again?

[1150] Ed Gein is the one that basically killed several people, women in his town, killed his mother.

[1151] Psycho was based on him as well as Silence of the Lambs.

[1152] He's the one that made furniture.

[1153] He wore his mother's face at night.

[1154] Was there a nipple belt?

[1155] Yes.

[1156] A nipple necklace.

[1157] A nipple belt, you're right.

[1158] And he danced with his different parts of his mother under the moonlight.

[1159] He was out of his goddamn mind.

[1160] Do you guys hate the movie Copycat?

[1161] You mean you mean with Sandra Bullock?

[1162] No, what was the one with Harry Connick Jr. and Sigourney Weaver?

[1163] Oh, I like that movie.

[1164] Oh, really?

[1165] I always just thought that his serial killerness was so dorky compared to actual serial killerness.

[1166] He hadn't refined his acting style as he had eventually done in Hope floats.

[1167] But I I enjoy everything that's happening.

[1168] Also, because it's in San Francisco, right?

[1169] Yes, it is, and it's amazing.

[1170] And Sigourney Weaver wears a lot of suits.

[1171] It's Sigourney Weaver and Holly Hunter.

[1172] But I just, anytime Karen is just on board for an actor, her love of Sandy Bullock, I'm just like...

[1173] When Sandy cries, I cry.

[1174] How can Karen love this part?

[1175] It's in me. I want to do it.

[1176] Yeah, she, I think you want someone to dig that out.

[1177] And I think Sandra Bullock does it for you every time.

[1178] She does it, but, but I have to say, like, not the proposal, Sandy, where she's kind of, The proposal is so good.

[1179] It's good, but that's, that's, um, my Sandy is more, um, eight weeks notice.

[1180] That's, I will watch eight weeks notice.

[1181] Anytime, wherever it is, beginning, middle, or end.

[1182] Okay.

[1183] I feel the same way.

[1184] I'm the same way with Steele Magnolias.

[1185] Oh, and sleeping with the enemy.

[1186] I will fucking turn that.

[1187] Oh, no, or what?

[1188] That movie is so good.

[1189] Steel Magnolia just goes down so smooth.

[1190] Like, it just, it's so, it's so smooth.

[1191] It's a gin and tonic on a hot day.

[1192] It's wonderful.

[1193] Yeah.

[1194] Do you want to go last because you're the guest?

[1195] Okay.

[1196] When it's terrible, I feel like it will be an answer climax.

[1197] Do you want another one?

[1198] No, it's good.

[1199] Go for it.

[1200] Okay.

[1201] I should, no, I'm budding in.

[1202] Okay.

[1203] James Reagan, I'm going to guess by his fucking face and God damn Fadora that he's a mobster.

[1204] he was born in 1881, began his crime career as a slugger for the Chicago Tribune during New Circulation Wars of the 1920s.

[1205] That sounds boring.

[1206] In 1940, his Continental Press, this is so boring.

[1207] Oh, God.

[1208] It's like about wire service and bookies.

[1209] There's some people listening.

[1210] They're like, oh, my God, finally.

[1211] Wire service crime.

[1212] Okay.

[1213] If the Chicago Maabone, Continental Press, they control illegal booking, bookmaking.

[1214] It's about bookmaking and mobs.

[1215] Throw it away, rip it up.

[1216] I'm not, I can't, I don't care.

[1217] But they were going to kill someone eventually, and they, like, that there was wires involved in federal crime.

[1218] They're so excited.

[1219] That's right.

[1220] Those G men were going to come in and really take care of, look at the guy.

[1221] It looks creepy.

[1222] Okay, here we go.

[1223] Okay.

[1224] Richard Tingler, Jr. Yes.

[1225] And it's like a really creepy drawing of, like, like an alien trying to look like a man. He looks like he has plucked his eyebrows without using a mirror.

[1226] Totally.

[1227] He does.

[1228] Richard Tingler, Jr. was an illegitimate child born in 1940.

[1229] Not his fault.

[1230] I just want to go ahead and point that out.

[1231] That's right.

[1232] His mother often taunted him for his, quote, sinful birth and beat him.

[1233] What a fucking cut.

[1234] I mean, she started it.

[1235] I'm sorry.

[1236] She totally started.

[1237] He escaped home by enlisting in the Air Force in 1959, well stationed in Alaska.

[1238] He went AWOL with a friend and was arrested.

[1239] for burglary.

[1240] In February in 1961, he was released in Chilokoth, Ohio.

[1241] Six months later, he was arrested on 13 counts of breaking and entering, sentenced to one to 15 years in state prison, and was paroled in August 64.

[1242] He broke parole with more burglars and returned to prison.

[1243] On September 16th of that year, four bodies, three male, were found shot to death in a Cleveland Park.

[1244] One month later, he robbed a dairy bar in Columbus.

[1245] What's a dairy bar?

[1246] It's just like People go there to drink milk.

[1247] Just take shots of milk.

[1248] Just drink milk and...

[1249] Get me another.

[1250] Play pool.

[1251] He strangled the manager into unconsciousness and shot two teenage workers.

[1252] Identified by the manager, he was indicted on six counts of murder and became one of the FBI's most wanted in November 68.

[1253] Using the alias, Don Williams, Tingler secured work at an Oklahoma farm.

[1254] March 30th, 69, his photograph with broadcast in an episode of the FBI.

[1255] Oh, my God.

[1256] Can we get fucking...

[1257] What's some, there was a show called the FBI in 1969, which we fucking need.

[1258] We need it.

[1259] What, how is no one put it on the list?

[1260] Video historians.

[1261] Come on.

[1262] Let us have it.

[1263] Museum of television and radio.

[1264] That's what I was just going to say, we can go to the Museum of Television and Radio and watch it.

[1265] Okay.

[1266] Is this like, I don't know what that is.

[1267] Is it like, um, it's in Beverly Hills.

[1268] Microfiche?

[1269] Exactly.

[1270] But with video.

[1271] Uh, he vanishes in April, he shot and he shoots and robs a middle -aged man, then goes home to the farm, erratic behavior, attracted the detention, baby -de -ba.

[1272] FBI agents arrested Tingler in May, extradited to face charges in Ohio, was convicted of murder and sentenced to die.

[1273] His sentence was committed to life imprisonment when the death penalty was overturned.

[1274] Tingler.

[1275] Kind of boring.

[1276] I just wanted more insight.

[1277] Like, I just, oh, like, these parents were unmarried is the only thing we got for why he did all of this.

[1278] And also just you shoot four people, like, what was that situation?

[1279] I feel like they make him seem diabolical really he's just a fucking like drifter who just like doesn't give who has no emotional attachment to people it's not that like but do we know that like what was that four person murder yeah it's just it doesn't sound like he's got he got any soul he's missing a chip yeah were there more drifters in the 60s yeah i feel like road car riders is that a thing you mean hippies i feel like half the hippies were like hippies i mean hippie i feel like half the hippies were just people are like fucking great i get to do this and fuck hot hippie girls awesome hot runaways that's very true i think so i mean it called charles manson poor 70s runaways like it is you stupid idiot this show is such a beautiful tribute to runaways because i forget that they exist and then it feels like every other episode there's a 14 year old girl who decides to strike out on her own that's well she either decides to strike out her own or the cops go oh no she ran away but she'll come back it's that old story they make hippies seem like such free spirits and it's really just like kids from small towns who are like, I want to go do a thing and they're like, oh, shit.

[1280] And then have to do terrible things to get money and survive.

[1281] And they're like, I made a fucking huge mistake.

[1282] And those, those like videos of them like dancing and having fun.

[1283] It's like, no, you're having a terrible trip around a bunch of sober people.

[1284] I think the core difference between hippies and hipsters was a graphic design degree from a decent school that allows you to like have that studio apartment in San Francisco.

[1285] Or, you know, Oakland or extended Brooklyn.

[1286] Yeah.

[1287] where you can be fine.

[1288] The difference is whether or not you choose to be in the park.

[1289] Are you sleeping in the park or did you just walk down to the park to get high?

[1290] Karen, let me tell you the most beautiful San Francisco story I have.

[1291] Can you tell me too, guys?

[1292] I was in the, yes, Steve includes Georgia.

[1293] Okay, so I was at, I went to the bathroom at the McDonald's that's like a butts Golden Gate Park.

[1294] Oh, that's where the amoeba is.

[1295] Yes, exactly, exactly.

[1296] Do you have Bay Area Origins?

[1297] Yes, I live there for a while.

[1298] Oh, okay.

[1299] So I walked into the bathroom and there was the most adorable twink.

[1300] Aw.

[1301] Covered in tracks.

[1302] Covered in Ivy Drug Use Tracks.

[1303] Oh, honey.

[1304] Like the barely there beard that he had because he was an adorable twink.

[1305] What year?

[1306] With 90.

[1307] Oh, you've said enough.

[1308] 8 or like 2002.

[1309] Oh, honey.

[1310] And with a disposable razor and then as he finished he offered it to No!

[1311] He was like, do you want to shave?

[1312] And I was like...

[1313] Oh, honey, baby.

[1314] No, I'm good.

[1315] It was like, that's San Francisco.

[1316] Like, that is San Francisco.

[1317] That's so, especially in the late 90s.

[1318] Yes, it varies.

[1319] You can't share razors.

[1320] No. You told you.

[1321] Not a thing.

[1322] Okay.

[1323] I want to keep talking about fucking San Francisco in the 90s, but that's another episode.

[1324] Should I read Lugong?

[1325] That's for the end of night of 2017.

[1326] Yeah, that's right.

[1327] Were we doing all San Francisco episode?

[1328] I'm just terrible stories of, yes.

[1329] What a bummer it was.

[1330] Me stealing toilet paper from bars.

[1331] Just a dark time.

[1332] Me going to Berkeley and being scared to going to the city.

[1333] The core question of my first years of stand up were, do I have 375 to get to the city?

[1334] Oh, my God.

[1335] Yeah.

[1336] Lou Gong was born in 1963 in Beijing, China, one of three children.

[1337] His father was a clerk and his mother was a doctor.

[1338] Good for them.

[1339] Feminism.

[1340] That's right.

[1341] Attempt a child, his math skills blossomed in junior high, and he won academic awards and eventual admission to Beijing University.

[1342] Upon graduation in 1985, he entered the University of Iowa to study physics.

[1343] Oh, this is a terrible, like, we're taking, like, a Chinese guy to America's heartland to where all of our serial killers all.

[1344] But nothing happened, right?

[1345] Everything was fine.

[1346] He's the guy on the card, though.

[1347] We'll see.

[1348] Upon graduation in 1985, University of Iowa, 1980s 70, took true mates at his tiny apartment, but both found him slovenly and superior.

[1349] He was a loner, bad tempered, and not well -lighted.

[1350] He became a graduate assistant and qualified for a PhD program.

[1351] Can I guess?

[1352] Jesus.

[1353] This guy's going to be a shooter.

[1354] That's my guess.

[1355] Kill his teacher.

[1356] For giving him a bad grade.

[1357] In the summer of 1987, an IU professor took Lugong to an international conference in Europe.

[1358] Upon his return, he became disenchanted with physics.

[1359] It happens to all of us.

[1360] And his scores began to fail.

[1361] He also began to pay prostitutes for companionship.

[1362] Nothing wrong with that.

[1363] Just handholding.

[1364] In 1991, a large cash award he had hoped for was granted instead to a rival.

[1365] He was incensed and began to file complaints.

[1366] He also bought a gun.

[1367] bought a gun Here we go Here we go, bought a gun He received his doctorate But still complained of a conspiracy against him No Nope, none No Just go get tin here somewhere In September 1991 Lugong closed out his savings account Packed up his belongings And sent them home On November 1st He walked into a graduate seminar And he shot his professor Oh my God It's rival It's like everybody wins on this one And the professor's protege I win He calmly reloaded Walked into the department and chairman's office and killed him.

[1368] As students called 911, Lugong killed the University Associate Vice President and the woman who had been handled about this.

[1369] How did we never heard about this?

[1370] Poor administrative official.

[1371] Oh my God.

[1372] Wounded her secretary.

[1373] Oh, I've been a secretary.

[1374] That's sucks.

[1375] Then he went to an empty...

[1376] She doesn't even get like any of the glory of like I'm a professor of this, but she's all the same shit.

[1377] She wanted to go home and watch fucking Nash bridges and have a fucking white line.

[1378] All she did was file.

[1379] Um, he, then he went to an empty room and killed himself.

[1380] The six victim murder spree, uh, and suicide took 20 minutes.

[1381] Wait, what year was it?

[1382] Like in the 80s?

[1383] Um, was he one of the first, 91?

[1384] Was he like one of the first college shooters, I wonder?

[1385] Oh, no. It's not in college.

[1386] I wonder, do they, if it's not out of college, do they call it a college shooting?

[1387] Yeah, no, it was out of college.

[1388] Oh, he was in the University of Iowa.

[1389] Oh, speaking of which, there's something I have to discuss with you guys.

[1390] after the show is over.

[1391] Oh, my God.

[1392] Oh, my God.

[1393] What is it?

[1394] Is it law?

[1395] It's a school shooting that I've been planning.

[1396] I've just been working on it.

[1397] You know this is admissible in court.

[1398] Yes, it is.

[1399] Oh, my God.

[1400] That was crazy.

[1401] That was crazy.

[1402] Oh, God.

[1403] Everything's the worst.

[1404] It always ends this way.

[1405] Can we have a good thing?

[1406] Because I'm really, like, this week has been shitty because I'm looking at Facebook too much and, like, reading all these horrible fucking headlines and, like, fucking Aleppo and all this crazy off.

[1407] shit's happening.

[1408] Yeah, let's talk about a good thing this week.

[1409] I don't have one.

[1410] Do you guys have one?

[1411] I have a fake good thing that is just me attempting to leverage your ridiculous success and make it beneficial for me. But Georgia Hardstock is probably going to be guesting on my podcast Pop Rocket in January.

[1412] Yay.

[1413] Oh, nice.

[1414] I'm sorry.

[1415] And also, let me be clear when I said to Karen, hey, maybe I could come on and explain some legal things.

[1416] It was not just me trying to get on your stout.

[1417] Oh, what's the point of the city?

[1418] There was me, yeah, what, like, look, when we all listen to podcasts, we all want to yell back at the podcast, which is essentially the only reason I listen to podcasts who are just my friends.

[1419] You're making me look important, and I'm going to fucking Instagram it.

[1420] Also, you'll get to talk about non, you'll get to talk about murder things, but you'll also get to talk about some fun non -murter things.

[1421] I don't know anything about non -murter.

[1422] Also, we have a little information now.

[1423] So going forward, whenever these things come up, at least you're going to be like, I think this was that thing, guys.

[1424] talking about.

[1425] However, and we can like know what we're on.

[1426] That's exactly right.

[1427] And we'll start wearing office outfits.

[1428] I would say my good thing for the week is that I am lucky enough and I mentioned this on our last episode to be working on Guy Brennam's new show for True TV called Talk Show the Game Show.

[1429] And we sit in a room.

[1430] It's actually very much like the my favorite murder family because we sit in a room with Jamie Lee from our Bell House episode.

[1431] She's the greatest.

[1432] Our friend Louis Katz, who is so hilarious.

[1433] And Chase Bernstein, who is a hilarious stand -up comic, who is our writer's assistant.

[1434] And we sit in that room and we spend, you know, 45 minutes working on the script we're supposed to get done relatively soon.

[1435] And then we spend the rest of the day laughing our asses off and very actively talking about, like, it'll start of the discussion starts.

[1436] about what we need to figure out for the thing and it'll always end up in like some kind of inner stand -up theorizing that is so hilarious and I just feel grateful that I have a job that instead of draining me of my lifeblood it actually the time goes by so fast and it is so enjoyable the opposite of stressful for fucking once it is the most fun and I find so fascinating that headspace where you're trying to find something to be depressed or scared or sad about like a friend of mine was recently just like obsessing about the possibility that he might die and I'm like you will die but the thing is is he's happy he's happy and he's trying to figure out a reason that he doesn't deserve to be happy well it's scary to be happy so he's like imagining that we'll be taken away from him and I think there is something so fascinating about that dynamic yeah with that like that mindset of like that's where you're going right now you don't really don't have to.

[1437] I beat myself up about that a lot.

[1438] Oh, it's hard.

[1439] It's hard.

[1440] Also, the good thing that we have is that we're all full of sparkling wine, which is the most fun.

[1441] Not me. I'm the opposite of full of sparkling wine.

[1442] But also the thing is, guy keeps talking about where, like, he'll talk about in preparation for when it all goes bad.

[1443] Like, you keep bringing that up to me, and it's so hilarious to me where it's like, we almost don't even have time for this all to go bad.

[1444] It's going to be done so quickly.

[1445] Yeah.

[1446] But I think a basic.

[1447] degree of paranoia is something any like the lovely thing about LA is you've seen so many untalented people get amazing opportunities over and over and so it's so weird I don't know if I've ever told you this but I just think the most hilarious thing is that the most negative person on the planet Karen Kilgarra who will scoff at anyone's sort of little project that Her second podcast is a rousing success.

[1448] It goes against her personality, is what you're saying?

[1449] Yes, it completely goes against her personality.

[1450] Like, Karen Kilgariff is a person who's like, deepest soul is going, a second podcast.

[1451] I love it.

[1452] I tried not to start it.

[1453] But I was so persistent.

[1454] We really just had, we had to make it happen.

[1455] This was delightful.

[1456] Thank you so much.

[1457] Thanks so much for letting me cross over.

[1458] into the world of my favorite murder because at 50 episodes or how many episodes is it?

[1459] This will be 49, I think.

[1460] Yeah, it's been beautiful being taken through those 100 stories and it's very fun to get to cross over and get to play with you guys.

[1461] We always say how nice it is when people we like the podcast.

[1462] Yeah, that's exciting.

[1463] And if you guys haven't already, please listen to the podcast Pop Rocket.

[1464] it is so awesome they they talk about pop culture stuff um but it's a it's a it's a discussion as ill informed as this no it feels like it's very um it felt very produced to me when i was on it where i was almost a little bit like i don't know if i have the right answer and you're just like i'm asking you your opinion it's like everybody felt very um they had big opinions about things i was like i don't know if i have opinions here you just got to get loud and get sparkly wind.

[1465] That's right.

[1466] I can't.

[1467] I know.

[1468] Um, yeah, thank you.

[1469] Thanks to Stephen Ray Morris of the Percast for being our amazing audio engineer.

[1470] Yes, thank you, Stephen.

[1471] He's who I'm thankful for this week, because when I go out of town, which is a fucking anxiety -ridden thing for me, because I hate leaving the cats.

[1472] The fact that he now takes care of them, like, fills my heart with joy because they love him and that it makes it less anxious for me to go away.

[1473] That's awesome.

[1474] You got one.

[1475] Yeah.

[1476] Yeah.

[1477] Yes.

[1478] Very good.

[1479] Um, you got, uh, I don't know, go to my favorite murder and do stuff yeah go on oh my god there's games and puzzles um and you can join the raffle uh it's gonna be so awesome thank you guys for listening happy new year happy new year thank you for being here with us all through 2016 yeah we've had a great time 2017 we're gonna fucking pepper spray you were no it's good thing yeah i mean in a good way it's not a positive like we're gonna fucking kick it you know what I mean like we're gonna fucking pepper spray it okay Let's assault 2017.

[1480] We're going to make it our bitch.

[1481] We're going to take keys between the knuckles to 2017.

[1482] To 2017's bolts.

[1483] Thank you guys.

[1484] Stay sexy.

[1485] And don't get murdered.

[1486] Bye.

[1487] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1488] Want a cookie?

[1489] There we go.

[1490] You guys actually do that?

[1491] I always assume there was just like one track of it that would use every time.

[1492] Why do you think he sits out here?

[1493] He fucking knows what's going to happen.

[1494] He comes over here and he knows.