Jaackmaate: The Untold Story Of My Battle With Health Anxiety & OCD

[0] People know Jackmate for being the guy to slag stuff off and that's funny.

[1] And then when the content dried up, well, I've now got to go and look for someone who's doing something wrong.

[2] You can only do that for so long before you just hate yourself.

[3] Didn't really get on with my mum.

[4] She would do and say things that I don't think any mum should really do.

[5] Things would happen at home and I'd have like a mark on my face like from someone that shouldn't have given me that mark.

[6] I made a video reacting to so well as Advent calendar.

[7] That changed the game for me, and the upload before that I was going to quit.

[8] I struggle with health anxiety and OCD.

[9] There's probably 15 to 20 times a day where I actually convince myself that I have cancer.

[10] So you're too fearful to go and get a health check done?

[11] If I go there and the doctor's like, yeah, you're ill, then that's the end for me. What do you mean that's the end for you?

[12] Jack, give me the context on your life.

[13] I sat here yesterday with Israel, Adesania, and he told me. told me about his childhood.

[14] And there was hints of that that really kind of felt similar to the experience that I read you've had as a young man as well.

[15] And then also, I think the other one where I could see real distinct similarities.

[16] And I think you might have listened to this podcast is Jimmy Carr.

[17] Yeah.

[18] Yeah, what a man. Yeah, what a man, right?

[19] He's like, I didn't realize he was he was going to be such a philosopher.

[20] One of the things he said to me was, you know, when someone becomes a comedic figure, which I consider you to be in many respects.

[21] I think he say that.

[22] Yeah, good.

[23] Okay.

[24] Um, he, he says that instead of asking, because there's, you know, there's this kind of stereotype that the person themselves is struggling with something and they're trying to make other people laugh.

[25] He said to me, as you might have heard, he said, you've actually got to ask them which one of their parents they were trying to please or to, to make happy.

[26] Does that resonate with you at all?

[27] Um, yeah, I mean, upbringing didn't really get on with my mom.

[28] I don't think she truly understood the potential in YouTube, whereas my dad always did.

[29] So when I was sort of like, like we're i guess how old are you steve 29 29 okay so i'm 29 in like two weeks time so like we we were kind of like the first kind of content creators in a way like we we kind of like paved the way if you will some people did well yeah i was late to party well people like charlie is so cool like did i just followed them i guess but um yeah my mom didn't really get she might she might argue this point i don't know but i don't think she really saw the um the potential in what i was doing so I was just some kid in my bedroom just talking to a camera, just waffling, not getting a real job sort of thing.

[30] And she has her issues and stuff with alcohol and whatnot.

[31] Ended up kicking me out.

[32] Long story short, I was kind of at a crossroads at some point quite early on, maybe like 1819, where I was living in my uncle's box room at his flat, which isn't the nicest environment in the world.

[33] I think you wouldn't mind me saying.

[34] And then I kind of thought, okay, I have to try and take this YouTube shit serious and at that time I didn't know what the YouTube shit was so ever since that moment I think the pivotal moment for me was I bought a whiteboard I bought a whiteboard and that changed that yeah that that changed everything and because I never took YouTube serious like a job like a nine to five it was always something that I would just just do just moan about something or take it do a funny take on something or whatever so I bought a whiteboard chopped it up into a month and wrote my plan and then I think it was in like 2000 I had this thing where I was like, I'm just going to say yes to anything that comes in my inbox and I just, for 365 days, just did.

[35] And then ever since then, it's just felt like I'm on this weird kind of, like, I've still not worked it out.

[36] Like, you've got your shit together, Steve.

[37] No, I haven't.

[38] No, I haven't.

[39] Look, how many cameras there are.

[40] It doesn't, I think, cameras isn't, uh, yeah, an indication of having my shit together, but I, okay, I take you.

[41] You're a dragon.

[42] It's mad, isn't it?

[43] Yeah.

[44] Yeah.

[45] Just the word.

[46] dragon.

[47] Like, that's mental.

[48] It is crazy.

[49] You've just reminded me of how much I resonated with what you were saying because I had a really, um, what's the right word?

[50] I had a real issue with the fact that my mother was so different.

[51] Right.

[52] And so challenging at times.

[53] Like, as I write about my book, showing up to my school in her lingerie when I was maybe seven years old.

[54] Yeah.

[55] And things like that.

[56] Right.

[57] And I've always really wanted to have a normal family.

[58] family and a normal mother.

[59] That kind of thing.

[60] And I kind of got that from reading your stuff.

[61] And there's a couple of things where you talk about some of the challenges you think she has, which I also think my mother has.

[62] Oh, wow.

[63] Okay.

[64] Bipolar.

[65] I think my mother's bipolar.

[66] Yeah.

[67] She's actually started to talk a little bit about that.

[68] Yeah.

[69] Sorry.

[70] Yeah.

[71] I don't know if my mum's ever been diagnosed with it.

[72] Because there's always been kind of like rumors and that that's the case.

[73] And I've, because I've not been a part of our life in the past eight, nine years.

[74] I don't know.

[75] Oh, you haven't?

[76] No, not real.

[77] I see her at like my nans at Christmas time and stuff, but there's always a very awkward kind of vibe where now it's kind of just like nodding terms.

[78] And for someone who's your mum, that's a weird thing to be.

[79] Yeah, it's just, yeah, growing up, you hit the nail on the head there when you said about your mum, like she would do and say things that I don't think any mum should really do.

[80] And it's hard now because at what point do you, at what point is it water under the bridge?

[81] like at what point do you go okay I'm just going to make up with her sounds very like juvenile and stuff but when so much has happened in your past how when is the day when you go okay I'll accept you again now and she sees that because she'll text me every now and then but my worry is that because she's always struggled with alcoholism she'll text me at half 11 on a Saturday night I want to get that text message at 10 .30 on a Tuesday morning I don't want to get it at 11 .30 on a Saturday night so I won't reply and then she'll just assume that there's a lot of animosity still there.

[82] And I guess there is, but yeah.

[83] It's funny because I sat here actually, I think yesterday with my sister, and I don't see my sister much.

[84] I think I see my sister once a year.

[85] Right.

[86] And my sister really wants me to kind of like reconnect with my mum and like get back on good times with her.

[87] But I think it sounds like pretty similar reasons to you.

[88] I was trying to explain to my sister that like I need to have boundaries with everybody in my life, not just like my friends, but also with my family.

[89] And at some point, you've got a, protect yourself yeah from going back around the fucking yeah you know like taking them back in at forgiving them for whatever they might have done for you done to you and then getting sucked back in because you know you're you've fallen for this trick once almost yeah oh mate i've fallen for it too many times yeah and and i really got my life together and i started on this kind of trajectory where i am now once i left home that was when it was kind of like okay you need to make this work or you you're just done you're just in your uncle's box room forever sort of thing so if it went for my mum, I wouldn't have bought that whiteboard.

[90] What a pivotal moment?

[91] What about your dad?

[92] I heard that story about watching the World Cup.

[93] And that was...

[94] Yeah, my dad's quality.

[95] My dad is quality, because he's been through a lot of stuff in his life.

[96] So I don't know if you know, but my dad went to prison for manslaughter when he was young, very young.

[97] Yeah, got in a fight with some bloke outside a pub, got in a dispute and hit him and the guy fell and passed away.

[98] And that plagues my dad now, because they're just too...

[99] kids fighting in a in a in a pub car park like so he went to prison he came out and he's just he's just a grafter like that pains him inside he has to live every day with that obviously it's not right what he did but um i'm never i'm never going to say that but he's brought me up with a lot of morals and it's taught me if you ever get in any fights like you run away like you don't need to be the big man like like he was and he's always had my back from day one and he's like my best mate so for example like when i first got my my my first youtube check from through.

[100] I think it was like $60 was like the threshold that you had to get back in the day.

[101] And I think I got paid.

[102] So it was at 45 quid or something.

[103] And, um, I'm from a, I'm from a council estate, never had any money.

[104] And I got that 45 pounds.

[105] And instead of give my mom any money, I just went to top, man, bought some t -shirts.

[106] Like, you remember them old sort of t -shirts for the color?

[107] Yes, with the little buttons down here.

[108] Oh my God, I wanted every color.

[109] Yeah.

[110] Yeah.

[111] Yeah.

[112] And the buttons were different colors.

[113] Yeah.

[114] And I, and I got a couple of those and I was in my room and I remember my mum coming in and having a go and being like oh you should give me like half of that or whatever and then she went and you've just wasted on fucking t -shirts and I had done that that is literally what I'd bought but my dad I remember my dad coming in and going he needs those t -shirts because he can't be wearing the same stuff in all of his videos and it was like he didn't know if that was why I was buying them or not but like he'd literally just made up a reason to apply it to my YouTube channel and justified why I was like why did I have to justify at that age why I'm buying t -shirts.

[115] But my dad just knew from the off.

[116] I guess none of us really knew the potential in YouTube back in the day.

[117] We were all just sort of testing the waters and just having fun.

[118] But I feel like my dad kind of had an idea that I'm, he, he trusted that I saw something in it, even if he didn't.

[119] So I owe him a lot in that respect.

[120] And now when I see him, if I've been doing good in my life, bad in my life, if I've, yeah, I'll tell him everything and he'll just give me the best advice ever.

[121] And yeah, it's just, I'm glad I had him because he was much the counterweight.

[122] I really vividly remember the moment when my dad called me to the kitchen table and basically said, I don't love, I don't love your mother.

[123] Right.

[124] Like I can almost remember what I was wearing.

[125] And I remember from reading about your story that there was a moment where your dad basically said, I'm going to leave after this football match.

[126] Yeah.

[127] Yeah, during the World Cup final, 2006, I think it was, when Italy won on penalties and Saddam did that head back.

[128] Yeah.

[129] Yeah.

[130] Yeah.

[131] Yeah.

[132] So my mum would always kick him out.

[133] Yeah.

[134] She'd always just, when she'd had enough, kick him out and it was very much a case of I think my dad loved my mum more than my mum loved my dad and my dad was I think he'd admit he was like the kind of like lap dog that would come running back my mum would kick him out and he'd come back and it'd be kicked as a kid like them having an argument it'd be kicked out so unfairly like and I just wouldn't be able to work it out but I kind of understood it because I was on the receiving end of that kind of judgment and stuff sometimes so I remember he would all she'd always kick him out and he'd go around his friends and I'd go and visit him at his friends and again he had a little box room as well and he hated it and he was a proper graft to work in all the hours under the sun so one day he just went she's going to kick me out again and I'm just gone and then and I'm just going to go and luckily he didn't travel to the other side of the world he just went to a town 30 minutes up the road but yeah we was watching a football game World Cup and I thought I better enjoy this because it's going to be different after this and I think it was a bit different after that because I think if if home life was ever bad he was always the one that I'd be able to chat to about it and that and then after that it's a good job it was a good football game otherwise that'd have been shit wouldn't that?

[135] Was there a point you got to where you kind of wanted your parents to separate for because I fought it for a long time and I was like I remember crying my eyes out as a kid at the prospect of my parents separating and then I remember I think maybe getting to like 14 or 15 where I'd actually prefer you guys to not live in the same place yeah I think that's accurate to me, yeah.

[136] I don't know if I'm just looking back and seeing it differently, but I don't think I gave a shit really when it happened.

[137] I think I'd always see them break up and get back together and break up and get back together.

[138] And I think like, I'd see my dad like stay up all night, right, and my mum love notes and stuff and she'd wake up and not be asked, get rid of them.

[139] And I'd see that side of it.

[140] As a kid, I don't think that should have been a side that I did see necessarily the rejection from her for someone that she's supposed to love so when he when he was gone I was kind of like yeah go fly yeah yeah and then he met his new partner who's lovely and then ever since then that's been a little haven as well just going around there and just venting and stuff so did you ever figure out why why she was the way she is did you ever try and figure it out was it like a generational thing that was her parents or something or something had happened to her I don't know because her mum my nan is the loveliest woman in the world.

[141] So I see my nan all the time.

[142] I've got her tattooed on me there.

[143] Um, so I don't know where it came from.

[144] I just think she's had, she just has, or she had, she might be completely different now, but she definitely just had issues.

[145] And I don't know whether that's drink, drugs, whatever that may be.

[146] Um, maybe I haven't given her enough time to actually think about why she's like that, really.

[147] I don't know.

[148] And she's never had help or anything like that.

[149] Not that I, not as far as I know.

[150] No, not as far as I know.

[151] But I might, My life has been richer and mentally I've been a lot healthier without her in my life, which sounds horrible.

[152] But that's the, that's the truth of it.

[153] Maybe one day we'll be able to sit down and talk it all, talk it all through.

[154] But not today and probably not tomorrow.

[155] What about school?

[156] You in school, what were you like?

[157] Just a little, I was quite sure, actually.

[158] Little ginger twat.

[159] Really?

[160] I was all right.

[161] I was all right.

[162] Yeah, I would just show off to the cool kids.

[163] I'd want to be accepted a lot so I'd show off to the cool kids and I remember I used to always like say what I think were funny little one -liners and not get a laugh and then once I put a ruler in a fan and I went and I got the biggest laugh ever and I thought what is this?

[164] What am I doing?

[165] So I just became a bit of an idiot in the last few years and was just trying to make the cool kids laugh so there is a lot of regret for how I was at school as well because I wasn't a bully.

[166] I'd never say I was a bully but I was a bit of a prick to teachers as well.

[167] And there was one teacher in particular.

[168] I'd just go in her class and I just wouldn't be asked.

[169] And I would just never listen.

[170] She'd try.

[171] I wonder if in a weird way, like she'll stumble across this video.

[172] And Miss Chapman was her name, English teacher.

[173] And I'd love to reconnect with her and just apologize.

[174] Because I mean, we all were, but that was no justification for me individually.

[175] But I was just a bit of a prick.

[176] I would never listen.

[177] And I guess being ginger and everyone's got things that people like get picked on for as a kid but you try and you try and fit in so i i tried to fit in by being the class clown the funny one and that's such a cliche and i hate when people say they were the class clown because what that translates to is you were just a bit of a dickhead and that's but that's what i was so yeah miss chapman if you're if you're watching this i apologize you were great i hope she is oh i hope she is was it just because you were ginger though and you're being picked on a little bit that you were trying to like find a way for them to appreciate you Was that, you think that was it?

[178] Yeah, I discovered bleach.

[179] Bleached my hair.

[180] I relaxed mine, so it was straight.

[181] No, I'm just called this short Afro thing.

[182] Right, yeah.

[183] Well, yeah, I discovered bleach, and then I remember just going to school the next day, like, that scene in Bruce Almighty, where I'm like, look, you go, that's flying on me. And obviously, I was a different person then.

[184] Yeah, and then, but then I was predicted all the top grades.

[185] Like, I was predicted, like, 12 GCSEs or whatever it was, like, top marks in everything.

[186] and I just completely fucked it really and got like five just scraped it so um yeah I was a bit a bit of an idiot really only sort of took life serious after school when thank God I found YouTube because God knows what I'd be doing if I didn't was there a connection in your view when you look back between your home life and your school life I think because you said it was at year 10 or 11 I can't remember that things kind of went downhill for you I wondered if there was there was a link at what with in your mind of what was going on at home and what you know your school performance decline um maybe maybe maybe i could i could sort of blame home life but i i probably wouldn't i'd probably just say it was more a case of wanting to fit in discovering at an early age i wanted to be the funny one i've always been the center of attention as well or wanted to be the center of attention i should say so as soon as i discovered oh self -deprecating works and putting myself down works that gets a laugh i'll do that and then you're invincible then because if people are calling you a ginger twat if you call yourself a ginger twat before them disarming yeah now i've got the cards yeah yeah so i don't think the home life that my home life affected school probably the early years in in high school because like not to go into too much detail but like things would happen at home and i'd have like a mark on my face like from someone that shouldn't have given me that mark and i'd go to school and say the cat done it and i didn't have a cat so so it's like that really i think that really affected me there's little things as well like i remember like i had these ornaments snow white and the seven dwarves i don't think i've even seen the film but i love these ornaments and then i'd done something at home that was naughty or something stayed up too late or played the playstation too much and then someone came in and threw the through the shelf down and smashed those ornaments and i remember as the shelf was on the floor i remember i was only a kit i was probably like 10, right?

[187] And the shelf was on the floor.

[188] There's a big standing bookshelf.

[189] And I remember thinking, please, please don't say those ornaments are broke.

[190] I love them for some reason.

[191] And I remember lifting it up and they were all broke.

[192] And that was the moment where I was kind of like, I fucking hate this shit.

[193] So I remember going to school and having to deal with stuff like that.

[194] But in the later years, when I kind of had YouTube and found my feet a little bit more and who I wanted to be, I found it a bit easier, even if I was pissing the grades up the wall, so to me. Do you ever worry, because something I, as I've gotten older, I think as we get older, sometimes some of the earlier things we learned about love or relationships or how you treat people or how you respond or your temper, they can sometimes surface and you, because I'd have moments where I'd see parts of my parents and myself that I maybe didn't love.

[195] Have you ever seen glimmers of that home life that and you think in yourself when you go, fuck, I don't want to be that person?

[196] That's such amazing question that is like that's so that me and my sister have discussed this as well because i have i have because i because i because i separated from my mum so to speak at quite quite an early age just after after school i think i've lost all of her her traits that i had in me because they were such negatives to me i really noticed them like her biggest negatives like stood out like a sore thumb so i actively had to not take them on myself um whereas my sister she had to she had to had a, she had quite a few of her, my mum's negative traits.

[197] And we've spoken about this now as adults.

[198] And she's like, yeah, I have to actively, like, whenever I think like mum would think or do something mum would do, have to try and get rid of it.

[199] I have a lot of my, I give my dad all the credit.

[200] I have so a lot of how I am is because of my dad.

[201] But I also have my dad's negative traits as well, which I think he would say.

[202] And my dad, not so much now, but especially after what I told you about his upbringing.

[203] Anger was his thing.

[204] So, and I have, I have that.

[205] Not luckily, I have it under control.

[206] It's never going to affect anyone else or hurt anyone else.

[207] But, like, for example, if I'm editing and the software shuts out, I'm like, fuck.

[208] Like, instantly, I'm so angry inside.

[209] And Fiona will have to be like, Jack, just chill the fuck out.

[210] Like, this isn't that deep.

[211] And then I'm like, okay, as long as I remember where I got this from and what, if I can pinpoint it on something, I'm a lot, I'm a lot better.

[212] Luckily, that's never got me into any trouble if I'm out and someone says anything to me. I don't get that.

[213] I get it through over trivial things.

[214] But yeah, I definitely do have some negative traits about me from my parents.

[215] Have you ever gone to like therapy or spoken to anybody to try and understand these patterns or to spot them or anything?

[216] Or is it just from like self -reflection that you've noticed?

[217] I did anger management classes at school.

[218] Oh, really?

[219] Yeah.

[220] But they put me in them for something I didn't do.

[221] I remember walking in the library once and I was at the bottom of these days.

[222] and this guy just gets thrown down the stairs at my feet and the teachers come in and seen it and I'd have to do 12 weeks hangar I promise you I've done a lot of like mad shit at school but that was not one of them I didn't know how I could throw him and then be down there before him he was on my feet so it didn't make sense so yeah I remember doing 12 or six weeks anger management but I kind of needed them so even though I didn't actually bring down and says I probably would have been the guy to maybe do that one day had I not had them I can't remember anything we spoke about in those lessons, but yeah, that's the only time I've really debated it.

[223] Does it, does it not ever crop up in your professional work, like anger issues with, like, colleagues or with, I don't know, with people?

[224] No, I think over the years I've mellowed out so much.

[225] I've, I think I've matured so much as well.

[226] And I think that shines through in like my old kind of like main channel content because because I made a name for myself on YouTube by being kind of like the anti -Yutuber and like slagging off other YouTubers.

[227] But I remember turning on the camera and putting on such a fake anger because I was talking about things I didn't care about.

[228] Oh, Ollie White's got some new 30 -pound T -shirts.

[229] That's moaned about that.

[230] Mainly because I knew I'd get a million views from it.

[231] Not that I cared.

[232] So I got really good at turning the camera on and putting this kind of like faux, like anger, like fake act.

[233] Like I guess because I was pretending to be angry all the time, I was very, alert when I actually was angry and I could keep that, keep that under control.

[234] So do you regret any of those videos as you've matured?

[235] You say you've melded out and matured now and you even spot that you were doing them from like a not an authentic place, right?

[236] Do you regret them?

[237] There's some I definitely do regret.

[238] Yeah, the majority I'd say no. Obviously, we, we both know that I'm a big fan of Ricky Jervais.

[239] Yeah.

[240] And he always, one of his mantras is there needs to be a why in comedy.

[241] Why are you doing something?

[242] if you're targeting someone why are you doing it like um and a lot of my early main channel content like for anyone who doesn't know like i made a video reacting to um so well as advent calendar everybody knows it's got like six million views it yeah crazy it did all right that changed the game for me in terms of youtube i was i was going to quit the the upload before that i was going to quit and then i upload that video and it changed the game but like when i look back on videos like that I have no regrets because it was funny.

[243] The comedy almost, like, it wrote itself.

[244] Like, there was a reason why I was doing it.

[245] It was a sketch.

[246] That's all it was.

[247] But there would be times when I fell into the trap of like, okay, people know Jackmate for being the guy to slag stuff off and that's funny, whatever.

[248] And then I'd find a few things that naturally did piss me off and I could draw humor from it.

[249] And then when the content dried up, it was kind of like, well, I've now got to go and look for someone who's doing something wrong and become this kind of like sort of white night of the internet sort of thing and it was like it's never who I was so I did I did my first ever video with Ricky Javees and and that was the biggest moment ever for me and then I remember uploading the video and the interview was brilliant and the top comment was this is good Jack but Ollie White's released some new t -shirts that you haven't spoken about and I thought fuck me so I've got now that's what you want from me is that so then I'd go I'm I didn't go out of my way to go, okay, Zoella in the title, Bangs Vues.

[250] What is she up to?

[251] Oh, she's released the book.

[252] Now that book, there was nothing wrong with that book.

[253] But I'm actively trying to pick flaws in it that I can dissect on my channel.

[254] And it's like, that's kind of like the stuff I regret.

[255] I remember KSI and Joella, they did their, when I was trying to be edgy boy, edgy boy Jackmate, they did their first press conference for their fight.

[256] And that was in Manchester, I think it was.

[257] because I was the black sheep of YouTube I would never get invited to them so therefore by default the jealousy would take over and I'd be like, this is shit, I want nothing to do with it where deep down I knew that I wanted something to do with that that whole YouTube boxing scene I'm a boxing fan, I'm a YouTube fan so why would that not appeal to me and they did a press conference and JJ he said something about Joe Weller's medication which I don't agree with but in the context of a press conference you say anything you can to get the upper hand and I remember just turning on my camera straight away and was like KS.

[258] I needs to be cancelled, blah, blah, blah, because I knew it would bang views.

[259] But JJ's a hero of mine, as I'm sure he is to any YouTuber, any content creating.

[260] Joe Weller, I used to watch every single one of his videos.

[261] I love Joe Weller, so they're the ones I regret when I wasn't being authentic and not even really being funny, just actually trying to go in on someone because I wanted that check at the end of the ad revenue to be higher that month.

[262] When you were doing that, so when JJ mentioned the medication thing, you hit, was it like I can make some money here or is it I can make some money and get attention?

[263] Probably a bit of both.

[264] Yeah, because they go hand in hand, don't they?

[265] Especially on YouTube.

[266] So probably a bit of both.

[267] It's mad that you're so self -aware about this, like, and you're just like, you're really good at diagnosing exactly why you did it from like a psychological incentive perspective.

[268] You're like, I wanted this or I did this.

[269] I wasn't true to myself.

[270] I did it.

[271] And that suggests like you've done a lot of kind of.

[272] reflecting and soul searching and maturing in what is actually a very short space of time because this is not a lifetime this is not a decade ago that video was probably four and a half five years ago yeah tops yeah yeah it's because it was I realized a couple of years ago that it wasn't who I wanted to be I was probably I recently did a brand trip with Cal Freezy and the burnt chip and I was speaking to them out one night and I'd never done a trip with another YouTuber I was always YouTube is a very clicky and they're all in their groups and I was always on the outside of that.

[273] I was always this boy from Norwich just have my normal mates and they surround themselves with YouTubers and I remember saying to them one night I think the main reason why I used to go for him is because I wanted to be him.

[274] I'm one of the OGs.

[275] I really am.

[276] I've been doing YouTube probably around the same month that JJ uploaded his first one.

[277] Like we would have been there at the start and Cal Frizi, Calix, all of these lads, Minimiter.

[278] And I probably, I see them become a collective.

[279] And I was like, why am I not part of that?

[280] Like, and now I don't give a shit.

[281] I'm so happy and content with where I'm at.

[282] And I've built my podcast now.

[283] And, but as a, as a kid, as a, even as an 18, 19 year old, a young man growing up, seeing that, feeling left out, it probably goes back to how I was at school as well.

[284] I thought, okay, if, if you, if you can't join them, slag them off, become the Darth Vader of YouTube, so to speak.

[285] yeah and then in recent years people started to discover that other people that i really respected like will any people on you and then even though will was my friend like still is my friend like he'd call me out publicly when i'd be slagging someone off and go have a day off mate and i would be so angry because because it was accurate and i'm like i'm sat there like so right and i'm no i'm not bothered mate like that kind of that kind of thing so yeah yeah i was speaking to calphreasy about that and yeah i've got a lot i've got nothing but respect for it for him now did the whole YouTube thing, but you also provided this, like, online commentary, almost constantly about how you were feeling about it.

[286] So you're one of the sort of rare YouTubers that, like, in real time would say, I've lost motivation for this.

[287] I'm going to try and find my motivation for this.

[288] I've lost motivation for this.

[289] You know what I mean?

[290] And you were very open.

[291] So even for me, I, as I logged into Twitter, I could kind of see where you are on this journey.

[292] Obviously, I've seen that change a lot with the whole podcast and the Spotify thing, which feels like you really found something that you do find, like, really enjoyable.

[293] But with your main channel, I watch you go through these waves of enjoyment and then seeing you say, right, I'm going to try and commit to it now.

[294] And then that didn't really work.

[295] And then, so tell me about that journey with YouTube and what you learned about yourself from that.

[296] Oh, God.

[297] It's really good questions.

[298] It's got to be said.

[299] Like, wait until you come on my podcast and I actually your favorite sandwich.

[300] I genuinely have watched it.

[301] And this is why I kept trying to, you know, I'm like, come on my podcast because that watching that journey taught me so many things and it really reconfirmed a lot about for me that I've been reading about in psychology about what keeps people motivated and when they're not doing things that are in line with who they are or are they're doing it for a check I remember reading this study which said if you love doing something and then they pay you to do the exact same thing you lose your motivation so the minute it goes from being a hobby I'm doing for the love of it to a hobby that I love doing but now someone is paying me for there's this weird thing that happens in the mind where people lose motivation for the exact same thing.

[302] Going off that, and I'm not sure if this answers you question, but I found this really interesting.

[303] I couldn't really work it out myself.

[304] I spent my whole YouTube kind of main channel era, like just saving up all my money, just saving up all my money.

[305] Like the only thing I was, I had the blinkers on, I was like, buy a house, buy a house, buy a house, buy a house, buy a house.

[306] And last May, I paid for my house and bought it outright.

[307] And that was the last time, bar one, that was the last time I uploaded.

[308] Really?

[309] Yeah.

[310] It was like, it's called a rival fallacy, I think.

[311] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[312] And Tyson Fury had it about when he beat Klitschko and became the heavyweight champion of the world.

[313] The next day he was depressed.

[314] Israel had a sign you sat there yesterday and said the same thing.

[315] Really?

[316] He said the day after I won the UFC title, I went to my hotel room, I was depressed.

[317] Yeah.

[318] I said it last night on stage at the Palladium.

[319] I said 80 % of Olympians when they get the gold medal, they report depressive symptoms.

[320] Yeah.

[321] It was the most proudest I've ever been over anything and paid it off.

[322] And then me and my partner Fiona, we moved in in September.

[323] And I just, I remember just, I was drunk one night.

[324] And I remember just walking around my house when Fiona was asleep.

[325] And I just, I just didn't care for where I was.

[326] Like, it's a beautiful house.

[327] And I'm so lucky.

[328] And it's everything I'd worked for.

[329] But it was like, what do I do now then?

[330] like what do i where like what i'll sit on my sofa or going go in my kitchen like i's no i'm not any happier than when i was renting or it was it was it was weird so have you figured out why you felt that way no i know i no i i don't know i it's it's because it's because the journey is way more fun than amen yeah than than than the arrival that it just it just is The most fun I've ever had is probably the first time I got a viral video or the first time I got to present for this company or first time I got a brand deal do all the stereotypical YouTuber things the first time I felt like a YouTuber they're the best moments and I'm not complaining I'm not sitting here and whining and I'm so blessed and so lucky and yeah it's a it is a tough one but like I did my kind of like sound bite that I always sort of say is I did YouTube for seven years without earning a penny.

[331] And then once the Zoella video kicked off and the ad revenue went up and I earned money I would never, I could never dream of earning.

[332] That was no more fun than when I was doing it for for free.

[333] And it's funny because I guess the liberating thing to know is that everyone I've sat here with says the same thing.

[334] So it's not a you thing.

[335] It's a human thing.

[336] And so you go, okay, if it's a human thing, what does that mean and why is that?

[337] One of the things, because I was writing my show for the pladium, I encountered was that the reason why we're here is because our ancestors struggled forward.

[338] And their desire to keep striving is the reason they built these empires and overcame.

[339] So I say to the crowd, I say, is it conceivable that they left a message within our genetic code that says, you too shall struggle forward?

[340] And they've kind of like predisposed us to like forward motion.

[341] And also this other point, like our ancestors, our ancestors that had a real sense of what really liked forward motion struggle and purpose were the ones that survived and passed on their genes to us.

[342] So we've inherited this real desire to have forward motion and a sense of purpose.

[343] And one of the things they say is causing the life expectancy to decline in the Western world is specifically they point at men and say there's an epidemic of purposelessness as the world is starting to change and AI and things like this are, I'm pointing at the little robot that's moving moving up around the room on its own are taking purpose from people and so people are now becoming more addicted and depressed and for their suicide has become the single biggest killer of men under the age of 45 which has caused the life expectancy to decline for two years in a row and it's because they think this epidemic of purpose listener so when you lose your sense of purpose because you reach the point you're aiming for that can be so disorientating and confusing as it was for me at 25 when someone came along and said we'll buy social chain off you for 50 million and I go home and I look at the mansion on right move and the Lamborghini on also trader and I feel totally fucking lost.

[344] I completely I completely agree like I wouldn't change it for the world it's everything I've always always wanted but like because because I think I think money does money does buy happiness and I think if people say otherwise I think they're talking shit like in a way like well I well maybe I should rephrase that to to money buys freedom yeah and freedom is is happiness is happiness and that's what what I have now I have can do what I want when I want the best feeling I I get now as a 28 year old soon to be 29 year old is when I sought my family out and like my granddad he's 27 20 imagine that he wishes he's 70 he's 77 he's a big fat lump from Norfolk and he still does building and demolition and walks on roofs and stuff and he's not got a penny and then like I went to see his parents grave with him in February last year and he goes there every week puts new flowers on he's been doing it for like 50 years and it's like and I could see he was he was wearing these beat up boots and this disgusting tattered jacket and I just went home and I just got his bank card without him known from his side of his car where his handbrakers and I got his bank and I just transferred him five thousand pounds and for me that was like Like, that was just everything.

[345] That was like, that was, uh, everything I'd worked for was justified in that moment.

[346] And I got more out of that than I did when I bought my house.

[347] And like just little things, like my sister's type one diabetic.

[348] So she has like a thing in her arm that constantly pricks her and finds her levels.

[349] And I can, I can pay for that shit.

[350] And yet last night, my dog died and the dog that I'd had for 18 years.

[351] And, uh, literally like found out just before I went to sleep last night.

[352] And it's little things like this that might not see.

[353] seemed like a lot, but it was the first time I'd spoke to my mum in ages.

[354] And she was like, oh, yeah, we're going to get Diddy's Ashes cost 200 pound.

[355] There's the 200 pounds.

[356] So it's like that kind of shit is like why I owe everything to this online world and people that have given up their time to watch me and brands that have trusted me and stuff.

[357] And yeah, that's the best feeling.

[358] I think you nailed it when you said that.

[359] Sorry about your dog, by the way.

[360] I have a dog and I really, that really, I can't imagine.

[361] It's shit.

[362] It's really shit.

[363] Even the thought of it is just terrifying.

[364] She was 18.

[365] years and four months, which is quite old.

[366] But when they get to that age, you just assume that they're always going to crack on.

[367] Yeah, yeah.

[368] No, I think you nailed it when you said that freedom is the thing that ultimately does make you happier because I remember not having, I remember getting the bailiff letters and then not being, not knowing how I was going to eat or knowing that the landlord was going to come and ask me why I paid the rent in four months and the pressure that of constant, like, weighing on me. And the freedom of just like not looking at how much things cost when you go into top man and want to buy one of those t -shirts.

[369] Yeah.

[370] That kind of thing or, well, you want to go somewhere.

[371] So freedom definitely makes you happier.

[372] But obviously at this point, I've come to realize that if you gave me more money, the fundamental happiness levers of my life won't change.

[373] Like, you're right.

[374] Like, my sister's been a little bit sick recently.

[375] She, um, and being able to help her, I said to my team this week, I was like, that's the moment where I see the point of this.

[376] Just being able to like pay the hospital or like get a checked, get a proper health care, those kind of things.

[377] My parents got broken into and being able to buy them like new locks for their doors so that they wouldn't get broken into again is is one of those things where you go, that's what this is for.

[378] Yeah, that's, that was the feeling.

[379] Yeah, it makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it?

[380] Completely.

[381] Do you, do you ever feel, again, name drop?

[382] But I spoke to Jervais about this because I was really, I was really, something that plagues me, whether it's right or wrong, is I feel guilty about having money.

[383] I feel, I feel this sense of guilt where it's like, and I don't have, I don't have crazy money, like, I've, my, situation is I paid off my house.

[384] I have a bit more in the bank.

[385] Like that's what it is.

[386] But because of my upbringing and where I'm from and I see my dad wake up at 5 a .m. every morning, go work in a factory for 12 hours and then still struggle to buy Christmas presents.

[387] And then I'm, like you just said, I go online.

[388] I don't look at the price of things anymore.

[389] And I just buy it.

[390] And then it's like, what?

[391] Like, this doesn't make sense.

[392] I'll tell you a quick story.

[393] Three, four years ago, my dad's dad, my granddad, he passed away.

[394] he got bone cancer or some kind of shit cancer they're all shit i guess and um he i went to his funeral went to the wake had a few jars went back home went on a night out and i was in the place called the waterfront in norwich which is where i always i always go uh i go there because i'm comfortable because everyone knows me there now so i don't get the dickheads come over and whatever but so they've if jack mates in there they've already seen jack mate, hundred times.

[395] It doesn't matter.

[396] And this guy and I was gone and I was not in a good place.

[397] And this guy came up to me and said, I'd never met him before and he asked me how much I earn from YouTube.

[398] And I think it's such a rude question, but I can understand the intrigue in it because it's a world that people just don't know.

[399] It's a new world.

[400] I barely know it.

[401] And he asked me, and I just told him for the first time ever, I was like, this is what I am.

[402] I said, what about you?

[403] What do you?

[404] And he told me and it was like 10 % of what I earn.

[405] And I said, and what do you do?

[406] He said, I work in the cancer ward at the hospital and I was just like and I weren't saying what do you do to be rude I was just throwing that back at him and I remember just thinking it just hit me just got lump in my throat and I thought why why do I do I deserve this what I have when there's these people that are like they're the fucking angels they're the ones walking around doing that like I just yeah I struggled to then wrap my head around why a brand would pay me 30k to do a video like it doesn't it to me it's weird so i guess you could argue why don't you give it all to charity well i'm not going to do that but i will give it all to my fucking family and i will give it all to my fucking kids and that's what makes me proud is there this is like a wider point about imposter syndrome is it i i think so because um because i've never struggled with the idea that i didn't deserve what i created and i think so i'm asking myself why you would really struggle with that?

[407] While you might struggle with the thought that you're making money and other people are potentially having to, because I mean, it's a reality of the world.

[408] Even if you go back to where I was born in Africa, people in the fields for 18 hours a day picking tea leaves and the baking sun get paid nothing.

[409] And in the Western world, some people can just play around on their computer and make billions from the stock market or the markets or something.

[410] But for some reason you struggle you struggle with this and other symptoms of imposter syndrome from what I've read and maybe it's because I think I spoke positively about YouTubers and my peers and stuff but there's still a lot of them that are pricks like and and and growing up and seeing like I'd used to go to YouTube events and see my YouTube heroes and they'd come over how many subscribers you got it's the first thing I'd say how many subscribers you got my name's Jack, nice to meet you, dickhead.

[411] So I guess maybe it's connecting that.

[412] I'm now a YouTuber.

[413] I'm now, I now make my money in the same way that Alfie Day's made his money.

[414] Ollie White makes his money.

[415] I'm that guy.

[416] And because I've seen a lot of YouTubers take it for granted and just assume that that's their right to have these things, that's maybe where I get my guilt from.

[417] I never want to lose touch of that.

[418] And you really come from a working class like household.

[419] where you've watched your dad work really, really hard.

[420] And everyone around you, it sounds like work really, really hard wherever you've looked.

[421] And it's almost like you found a bit of a cheat code or, you know.

[422] Yeah.

[423] I might feel like life has given you, I don't know.

[424] But you've, you earned it.

[425] I mean, you bought the whiteboard.

[426] Yeah.

[427] Yeah.

[428] It was intentional.

[429] Yeah.

[430] Yeah.

[431] But what's shows that.

[432] You know, you planned it out.

[433] Obviously, moments of luck for all of us appear when we start, we carry on, carrying on.

[434] But you've realized that you've earned it, right?

[435] yeah you do you hesitated you don't do i i i i i do i do and i i'd but not to the level in which i've got to now not to like yeah i get i i guess i guess i i have i have i have a talent i can do i'm a personable person i can make people laugh but yeah i don't i don't i don't know i don't i don't i really don't know how to answer it i get i've thought about it a lot i've racked my brains a lot about this.

[436] And what did your brain say to you when you rack your brain?

[437] Don't know.

[438] It's just maybe I don't.

[439] But then, like, it's, it's, it's, it's cool things like this, like Stevie White, my, my podcast co -host, was working in boots.

[440] Nothing wrong with that.

[441] It's a respectable job.

[442] Just a nine to five.

[443] He didn't particularly enjoy it.

[444] So I call him up one day and say, let's do a podcast.

[445] A year later, he's interviewing Ricky Javage, Johnny Knoxville, Rob Briden, he's left his job.

[446] He's doing it full time.

[447] Fiona, my partner, she was working at a supermarket.

[448] I was telling her for years, bin it off.

[449] I'll teach you how to edit.

[450] You become my editor.

[451] A couple of years ago by, she bins it off.

[452] She's now working for me. There's a few examples of people in my life that can now have an easier life because of the foundations that I put in seven years ago.

[453] That's what I love.

[454] And that's when I'm like, I deserve this.

[455] And the people around me deserve it.

[456] Does that make sense?

[457] Of course it does.

[458] Once again, you've said that like the most fulfilling thing for you is helping others right you said that about your family yeah also for professionally it's like giving those people opportunities to live a better life yeah we're just a fucking team we're just a team they help me as well it's not just me going look i can help you do this i showed them that there's a there's a different world out there because people like us we've been in this world for so long we've see the opportunities but they probably didn't so yeah i wouldn't be able to do what i do without that that that kind of the team in the in the background or sometimes in the foreground with people like Stevie.

[459] But yeah, that's a fucking cool feeling.

[460] Everybody, everybody, it sounds like, it feels like everybody that's not a YouTuber.

[461] And I say everybody, because there's going to be people listening that are driving off and down the country right now as they're listening to this or, you know, doing the dishes, whatever and perfectly happy with whatever they're doing.

[462] But a lot of young people want to be YouTubers.

[463] And the thought that you had this like big main channel with like, how many subs is your main channel got now?

[464] It's like 1 .4 or something.

[465] Yeah.

[466] 1 .4 million.

[467] Yeah.

[468] Yeah, that you would like lose motivation to do it is quite a difficult concept to understand for a lot of people.

[469] You have 1 .4 million people that have subscribed to get videos from you and you're like, can't be asked.

[470] Yeah, it's not so much can't be asked.

[471] It's just, it's not me. It's just, it's just not me anymore.

[472] It's people, I'd open up my inbox and people would be emailing me about some YouTuber from France who has sold a pen for a bit too much money and I need to be the guys that calls them out.

[473] And it was just like, I was never, I was never really this guy.

[474] So, yeah, I guess, I guess I just transferred all that energy that I was putting into the main channel into the podcast.

[475] And that's where my passion is now and doing stuff like this, getting to sit here, chat to you.

[476] And yeah, that's, I get what you mean.

[477] Like, if you'd have asked me two years ago, are, am I just going to leave a channel with 1 .4 million subscribers stagnant?

[478] I would, I'd call you all the names under the sun.

[479] I'd be like, you're an idiot.

[480] Of course I'm not going to do that.

[481] But it seems that I have done it.

[482] use it every now and then like in january i uploaded a video about boris johnson and i saw a dope video all over the newspapers really really cool video thank you like creatively culturally relevant it really like hit and it was fast you were very quick to act on that moment so it was uh that i guess i guess for you probably is that how you're seeing the use of your your main channel now like when you genuinely feel you want to do something yeah yeah yeah when like when the why is there when there's a clear and obvious why i'll i'll do it um and not just for a quick buck now.

[483] I'm very thankful.

[484] I don't need to do them anymore.

[485] It's hard to sustain something when it's not in line with who you truly are.

[486] Yeah.

[487] It's hard to like sustain it for a long period of time.

[488] In the short term you could probably do it, but it tends to be the case when I say it with people that at any point in their lives where they were living outside of themselves, like living someone else's life or kind of like, Fern Cotton said it like, she had to like go on radio and be this happy da -da -da -da -da.

[489] And almost play a character.

[490] Jake Humphrey said it to me as well, like because he was a presenter having to kind of like put on the mask eventually it becomes a really heavy mask to wear and they all have eventually it seems kind of choose to throw it away and just rebound and that seems similar to what you're saying 100 % yeah I I told this story last night to someone I'd I can't remember I'd I used to turn the camera on I used to go I'd be sat there and I'd turn the camera on okay right guys hello it's me jack may oh zoella oh what dickhead Oh, she's done this, done that.

[491] Turn the camera off.

[492] Just sit there.

[493] And I couldn't tell you anything I'd just said in the last 20 minutes.

[494] I'm just looking down at my script.

[495] She said this in her book, about how out of touch is it?

[496] And it would just be like, right, that's the ad revenue sorted for the month.

[497] Fee, let's go to Weatherspoons.

[498] Yeah.

[499] So it was like, you can only do that for so long before you just hate yourself.

[500] There is an element of that in me. Like that, the Advent calendar video, I've done some.

[501] videos i'm really proud of funny videos when when it was when it was justified but there's also ones it's not so much i've been doing recent sort of commentary videos over the last two years my my recent ones are like videos i've been doing with my friend alfie indra who's a musician and we've been like sort of taken kind of comical pokes at people like um jeremy lynch from the f2 and people like that and and i people think i'm jeremy lynch or the oh really you you don't want to be you don't want to be that guy you can be billy be the other one, he seems all right.

[502] But the thing with those videos, I'm really proud of them still.

[503] And I guess you could argue, well, you're that same kind of like scathing commentator.

[504] Yeah, but I believe that those people I'm going for, they're justified.

[505] So, hella, not so much, let a crack on.

[506] No?

[507] What would you say to her if you said?

[508] Have you ever met her?

[509] Never matter.

[510] I don't think she wants to meet me. That'd be an awkward one, wouldn't it?

[511] is there like is there any because that video did really well yeah and i think if a video about me had gotten six million views um i think i'd have a pretty shitty month i was gonna say week but i think it'd last longer because that video did really really well i remember like sometimes someone were like an article about me and i try and be this tough guy i'm not i don't give a fuck whatever whatever but i'm still at like one a m in the morning it's hard to get it out of my mind so i think if a video had got six million views about me criticizing something i'd done yeah it probably been quite hard to take mentally.

[512] Yeah.

[513] Do you have, does that ever, like, crossed your mind?

[514] Like, ever?

[515] Yeah.

[516] I'm not saying what you did was wrong because I watched the video and I actually thought it was really funny.

[517] So it's like, was there comedic merit in someone that's super successful selling a advent calendar of that nature for that price?

[518] Yes, I understand it.

[519] Like, when you talk about the Y and the Jervais, like, philosophy, I get it.

[520] But does, has that crossed your mind as well?

[521] Yeah, yeah.

[522] That's just another reason why I stopped doing it.

[523] It's hard to, I'm not articulate enough to describe how I feel about it, but yeah, the calendar video was funny.

[524] There was a clear error on her behalf and I just, ultimately, I wasn't really saying anything nasty about her.

[525] It was just this product.

[526] Whereas when you do a follow -up video and a third video, where's the line?

[527] Where do you draw the line?

[528] Is it becoming bullying now?

[529] Like, that's not who I want to be.

[530] I want to be a comedian.

[531] so so I definitely as I've gotten older and I guess maybe I was immature for a long time I should have realised this at a way earlier age than I did but you do start to consider others and I'm the same as you mate I'll read a comment about me on Twitter and I will clap back and I still go back to them now and fees there going what are you doing and I'm like fuck him like I just like that's a bit of my dad as well like and I'll just I'll spend hours arguing with football Twitter that's all the worst yeah Yeah.

[532] They've all got like a football player as their display picture.

[533] Yeah, yeah.

[534] They call like Fantastic Four Nowes or something.

[535] He doesn't know who you are.

[536] Fucking out.

[537] Yeah.

[538] But I get a bit of a rush from it, really.

[539] I worry sometimes.

[540] Because I say to myself, I'm trying to reply to a troll to try and disprove their point or because it's fun or whatever.

[541] But I think sometimes it's because it's like hit me in the ego.

[542] Yeah.

[543] And I don't want to admit to myself that that person's actually pissed me off.

[544] Yeah.

[545] So I kind of use the.

[546] guys of no it's funny or like no like to to justify it to everyone I was like I'm not bothered yeah I really I've really you know the internet is not a good place to be if you haven't got control over that because you'll get dragged around by trolls with egg emoji accounts like yeah yeah I like I said Fee's always telling me not don't shit I'll be in bed like that hung over or whatever Sunday morning going on and Fee will be like just leave it they're fucking idiots and ultimately I know They're probably just jealous of whatever it is.

[547] Like, I'll get like a good podcast guest on.

[548] And like the other day, I was in, I was in Wales with Goerwin Price.

[549] He's the number one darts player in the world.

[550] And put a picture up of me and him, just put in beautiful Wales, throwing a few arrows with Gowin Price.

[551] And Gowen Price is this Panto villain.

[552] I don't know how much you know about darts, but he's like the Panto villain of that.

[553] Is he the Welsh one?

[554] Yeah.

[555] That when he wins, always like, then he's like, the bumming.

[556] It goes like this big biceps.

[557] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[558] yeah um and and and so he's i'd heard for a while that he's always he's very lovely off camera but or off the stage but when he's up there he's a pantow villain i was like that's pretty much like the jack mate of darts in a way so i put up this picture of him i was like never judge a book by its cover like i know this more than i know this myself because i always did just just this guy replied two bellens but he follows me just follows me so it was like i i will reply to him and he's like why are you bothered like that must just be jealousy like why else are you you follow me and you're doing that?

[559] It doesn't make sense.

[560] But I kind of like, I like to think that I'm very, very honest online.

[561] So why would I not reply?

[562] Why would I not try and think of some pithy remark to try and put him down like, yeah, because I'm meant to be a professional and I'm in this world and I'm working for West Ham, but really, I also think you're a bit of a dickhead, right?

[563] And I'll tell you.

[564] Do you think that because you are very like, I imagine if, like, Boris Johnson and like, I don't know, another politician uploaded a foot photo, you'd probably quote retweet it and say two bell -ends.

[565] So, like, do you think there's a chance?

[566] Because I don't think anyone would ever tweet me that.

[567] Like, if I, do you think there's a, because you've cultivated a younger male audience that are comedic and they're like, they use kind of colloquialistic, funny language like bellens.

[568] Yeah.

[569] You're also now at the mercy of them attacking you with the same language in that situation.

[570] I'm just wondering why no one would ever tweet me if I uploaded a photo, go two bell ends.

[571] I just, my audience just don't speak like that.

[572] While you feel this episode goes out.

[573] The top comment is two balance.

[574] Yeah.

[575] You see what I mean?

[576] Like, and then you're having to deal with that because.

[577] I get what you mean.

[578] Yeah, but then maybe they see a bit of, because I. Yeah, they think you maybe like that as well.

[579] They think, oh, you know, because he follows you and, you know, he clearly looks up to you if he's following you and stuff.

[580] That's true.

[581] It's true.

[582] It becomes more real when you, like when like someone some there'll be people out there that will defend me on that thread and they'll say you don't know him and he'll go well he looks like a prick look at his trousers and then it's like it's like personal yeah it goes a bit goes a bit deeper then but like you are right because I would always do an event called summer in the city it was the only time I'd ever I'd ever get out of like Norwich and go and meet the fans and they'd put you in a pen and there'd be all these YouTubers in this big haul like Excel and you'd be in a pen and then fans would come up one by one And I'd meet, like, 13 -year -old girls.

[583] You might want to believe this, I don't know, but they'd come up to me and go, all right, you can't.

[584] And I'll be like, what, have you just said?

[585] And then, but then because that's what I'm doing online, all right, you fucking dickhead?

[586] But they're there to meet me, and they want their thing signed, so they like me, but they think, like, but then I wouldn't go up to, like, I wouldn't go up to Dicklin Rice and start doing keep you up around the world, all right, Decker?

[587] I just have to be like, yeah, maybe I am the influencer.

[588] Fuck, scary, scary notion.

[589] No one's ever said that to me in a meet and greet.

[590] It's really interesting.

[591] And there's an element of your, do you think there's an element of your childhood in that?

[592] In the sense of like being triggered a little bit by what people are saying or the criticisms that, you know, triggers you maybe.

[593] Because I, I'm thinking about myself, I definitely wouldn't sit in bed, replying, especially now I'm on the BBC, like BBC one, it's a bit prestigious in it.

[594] I can't really be popping off too much.

[595] Yeah.

[596] Well, yeah, probably.

[597] I probably shouldn't be either.

[598] Do you do you want to be the type of person that doesn't?

[599] Yeah, but I can't, Steve.

[600] I can't, like, I'll reply to them and then, and then fee will be like, delete them.

[601] And then I'll be like, no, not going to.

[602] And then in an hour, it's like, it's like a come down.

[603] I'm like, all right, now I'll delete them.

[604] And then in an hour later, I'll be like, and then in an hour later, someone else has said something what do you mean i'm so mature on twitter it's a joke there's a real risk there have been like pulled around emotionally there by the external world right yeah i've deleted twitter off my phone a few times um yeah we went i went up for a dinner with max fosh and um i told him about he was he questioned it he was like why do you always go back at these idiots i'm like i just find it funny or they just get to me and i deleted twitter off my phone and he was like i said i'm going to do it for the whole weekend and he was like i guess i guarantee that you'll you'll redownload that by the end of the meal and I had I didn't scroll now looking through it so when football Twitter say we're in your edge mate nine times out of ten you are in the head but I'll try and get back in yours do you not think it would be a happier life just to fucking like 100 % yeah yeah but I guess I get bored is it that yeah yeah happy hour So this was a really pivotal moment.

[605] Where did that start?

[606] Why did you decide to start doing long -form podcast instead of the other types of videos you were making before?

[607] I've always wanted to interview people.

[608] At college, 10 years ago, I studied interview techniques.

[609] Really?

[610] My granddad was the first person I interviewed.

[611] He came in and I interviewed him about the war and all that kind of stuff.

[612] And I always wanted to do it.

[613] And then in 2017, I had a podcast with my friend Tom Norris.

[614] Did not right?

[615] but it was just too much we were doing it at the YouTube space and we'd rock up sometimes and they didn't have the cameras in and that so it fell by the wayside but then 2018 I wanted to do another podcast I said to Fee said who shall I do it with because I always knew I wanted to do it with your every man so not a YouTuber because that's not I'm not a YouTuber that's been friends with YouTubers I'm a YouTube that's friends with my mates in Norwich I'll do the best video ever with the big celebrity come back to Norwich and they'll just go yeah we didn't watch it mate not bothered and i'll just be in the pub and that'll be everything i need to keep me grounded so i so she she suggested stevie white who's um just a just a mate that lived in bristol and uh i called him up and said do you want to do a podcast and he said why so good point good point and then we ended up giving it a go i started doing it with a guy called i'm alex who's a who's a YouTuber that was very um a comment he was a commentary YouTuber.

[616] So he was calling out people.

[617] He would do the cookie cutter templates of like X, Y and Z needs to be cancelled.

[618] X, Y and Z needs to be can't.

[619] And he was doing that all the time.

[620] So originally my show was a YouTube drama show to call people out to be an extension of what I was doing on the main channel.

[621] And then after about five or six episodes, I thought this is just poisonous.

[622] And I don't, it's not me. Why am I trying to do it in a different format?

[623] So we dropped that and started getting guests on and interviewing people.

[624] And I found the love of YouTube again, which I'd lost for a few years Was there like a pivotal moment in Happy Hour where you thought fuck this is going to be It wasn't the Spotify It must have come sooner than that Right where you thought this is We've got something here Yeah Again it was probably getting Jervais on Oh god I don't remember that day He was in our first like Three guests Nice And I'm so grateful that he gave me a chance years ago Because I would I genuinely believe I would have none of this If it wasn't for him Giving me a shot And I built up a connection with him years ago so he then when I needed someone big to come on the podcast he would step in you know what it's like you get one through the door other people almost then don't judge the show based on me they'll judge it based on who else is sat in that city yeah so so I owe a lot to him so that was probably a defining moment and testament to Stevie as well because I've been doing this for 10 12 years I've been around people like Javais I've been very lucky very fortunate and I remember how nervous I was the first time I sat on the sofa with him.

[625] The first time I filmed with him was the most nervous I've ever been for anything in my life.

[626] And then Stevie White has come literally seemingly out of boots the day before.

[627] And then he sat there with Ricky and he's just, just gets it.

[628] He's just on and he's just the glue.

[629] And I was like, I've chosen the right person here, like to do this journey with.

[630] And then the money side of things.

[631] So eventually you get approached by Spotify and they offer you a contract or a deal, exclusive deal to do.

[632] I remember watching your video announcing that.

[633] Yeah.

[634] And you were very, very honest.

[635] Probably too honest?

[636] No, like, I think that's probably why people like you so much because you're, I can trust you because you're going to tell me the way you go, listen, the money is a fucking, very important thing here.

[637] And you've been very overt about that, which I think is admirable because, again, it builds trust.

[638] People don't have to like what you're saying, but they're going to trust you.

[639] They're going to trust you to always be honest with them.

[640] So what was your thinking around the space?

[641] Spotify deal because, you know, I don't know, someday Spotify might approach me and ask me if I want to if I want to go Spotify exclusive and maybe you can give me some advice on that.

[642] The reason I did it was purely financial.

[643] I thought it was going to be a bad idea.

[644] And I took some, my network who I'm signed to, they wanted it to happen because obviously they've got a slice of the pie.

[645] Did they orchestrate the deal?

[646] Did Spotify go to them?

[647] And then to you.

[648] Yeah.

[649] And originally I saw it is, okay, I'm taking off the full visual episodes on YouTube and just putting them on an audio -based platform, whereas a lot of my audience might be the younger kids.

[650] And people like me and you, we probably consume a lot of just audio when we're on the go and in the car and that, whereas I think younger generations, and I'm basing this on nothing.

[651] You probably know better than I do.

[652] But I imagine younger kids probably like the more visual.

[653] They like to watch the music.

[654] So I thought taking it off is probably going to get a lot of backlash.

[655] And then Spotify told me how much it would be per year and the potential for how many years.

[656] And I thought, well, that doesn't just change my life.

[657] That changed my children's life who don't even exist.

[658] So I literally did it because I was financially driven.

[659] And I've got no qual I'm saying that or admitting that.

[660] But what I'll also say is now I'm starting to see the benefits a year in of going with Spotify.

[661] And they've not got a gun to my head.

[662] I can be as honest as I want about it.

[663] If I thought it was shit, I wouldn't have then signed on for the second year.

[664] but they are now pulling out guests for us that I would have never been able to pull on my own up until like two months ago I'd booked every single one of my guests personally on Twitter DMs or Instagram or whatever the last few months they've booked us Johnny Knoxville as part of this jackass press junkets Rob Brydon Russell Howard we've got talks of some big the biggest movie stars in the world because of Spotify so So as somebody who has always wanted to sit down with the most interesting people in the world and pick their brains, they've offered, they've allowed me that.

[665] So, and they've also said that I can get the full video on Spotify if I want.

[666] And the only reason I'm not doing that is for a few things behind the scenes that I need to, well, I can say it, can't I?

[667] It's because I'm earning money on the YouTube clip.

[668] So it's like, you need to give me a little bit more to take that off.

[669] So it needs to be worth your while.

[670] Yeah.

[671] I've actually had a conversation with Spotify about that as well, about that video thing.

[672] And I was considering it.

[673] Spotify have said to me, do I want to move the video to Spotify as well?

[674] Right.

[675] And again, me and Jack were trying to weigh up what that means.

[676] Does that, because we're not going to get paid for that on Spotify, but does that mean we'd lose YouTube viewers if we moved it there?

[677] And we kind of concluded that we wouldn't because we think that, as you've said, they're kind of very different types of people.

[678] The YouTube watcher is not necessarily the Spotify.

[679] Right.

[680] People seem to be in their habits.

[681] They're like cycles of how they consume content.

[682] I don't know.

[683] I don't know, so you've been debating that.

[684] But, yeah, but then, I don't know, because if I'm listening to one of your apps, I'll put, yeah, I'll put the YouTube version on, even if I'm not watching it.

[685] Same.

[686] Yeah.

[687] Same.

[688] Yeah.

[689] But then if it was, if it was on Spotify, would I then go to Spotify for that?

[690] Like, I don't, I don't know.

[691] I honestly do not know.

[692] I like the arrangement I have now where people can watch the little clips on YouTube and listen to the full ones on, on Spotify.

[693] It's like advertising as well, isn't it?

[694] Because that can go like viral on YouTube and then that brings people over to watch the full thing.

[695] Yeah, for sure.

[696] Which makes a lot of sense.

[697] What's your big vision as it relates to like the next five, ten years for happy hour?

[698] I want to do a live show.

[699] Oh, really?

[700] Yeah, we've been contacted a few times about doing a live show, but it just has to be right.

[701] We actually did like a pilot one in London somewhere a few years ago, but it was the old show with Alex and the moment.

[702] Yeah.

[703] So, so, so I want to tour it.

[704] I want to have a more official chat show.

[705] I don't know what that means because I have a chat show.

[706] But is that on television?

[707] I don't know.

[708] I don't know.

[709] I want a better studio.

[710] I just want to keep.

[711] I'm really fucking happy, mate.

[712] So I just want to keep doing what I'm doing and just make it bigger and better.

[713] And just see what happens.

[714] Thursdays, which is today, a day of recording, like, and my best days of the week.

[715] Like, I used to live for the weekend to get pissed and go out of my friends.

[716] now I live for Thursdays because I love like after this we've got going price on mine and then you're coming on mine as well and like I'm so excited for both conversations like that's so I just want to keep doing it I say it's the most impossible question when people ask me where do you want to be in five years I want to be I want to be here yeah one of the things that um you've also been really open about especially in 2019 I saw you talking a lot about this was that was really tough year for you right and you talked a lot about your sort of mental health battles and just not feeling so good yeah i struggle with um health anxiety and oCD and i remember that was the time when i was i was really really low um and again i think i've touched on it a few times but probably going out a bit too much and doing the stuff i shouldn't have been doing and and that it goes hand in hand isn't it you feel shit because the ocd is consuming you so you go out to get pissed up to have a break but then the next day is anxiety or whatever they call it now is twice as bad so yeah 2019 i think was really when that started to get really bad and i still have it now um it's never going to go away but it's a really weird really weird thing to to deal with health anxiety yeah so when i was when i was 13 i found a lump downstairs and um like i found that like with with certain words like testicles, balls, stuff like, I struggled to say them.

[717] I physically struggle to say him.

[718] When I'm talking to Fiona, I'll say the T word or whatever.

[719] And because I remember I was up all night worried that I had the C, that I, I were panicked and I was so fucking nervous.

[720] I remember going to the doctor and he had to check it out and said, oh, it's fine, it's just a cyst, it will go away.

[721] And it never went away.

[722] And I still have it now.

[723] But the health thing like this is how mad it is I can't touch that part of my body I can't look at that part of my body I can't go there's probably 15 to 20 times a day where I actually convince myself that I have cancer that that's how that's how crazy it is it's coming it comes in it comes in waves the best way I can explain it to people who don't have it is I don't smoke weed I have done in the past but like I assume you've you've smoked yeah yeah um for me I can't smoke it because I lose my head.

[724] So you know that moment when your brain sort of floats off and you stop being conscious, you're conscious, but you stop having your, you're not as alert.

[725] And then suddenly you become back to reality for a few seconds.

[726] That's what my brain does with cancer.

[727] So because I had that trigger when I was younger, that's really given me this kind of disorder, so to speak.

[728] And then that OCD has grown and taken so many different tangents.

[729] My granddad who's on my, this arm, my best mate and my best man, He'll be my best man at my wedding.

[730] He got ill with septicemia when I was like 14, and I got home, and my mum had told me that he was in the hospital.

[731] And I remember I went and saw him, went home.

[732] I had a picture of him, and he was holding me when I was a baby on my wall.

[733] And my lucky number was 13.

[734] And I kissed at 13 times.

[735] And then a couple of days later, he got better.

[736] So that fucking triggered me. And then I could not go to sleep without kissing at 13 times.

[737] I've never been a religious guy.

[738] I've actively always spoken about my atheism.

[739] probably because I was trying to be a B -Tech Ricky Jervais.

[740] But they are my beliefs still now, or lack of.

[741] And I made up a prayer in my head.

[742] And I knew it was like, it's embarrassing to say it out loud, but it was like, dear God, please look after my mum, dad, nan, granddad, sister, and then I'd name them all.

[743] And then I'd have to say it three times.

[744] And even though I wasn't saying it out loud, if I tripped over a word, even thinking it, like I thought of the wrong word in the wrong order, I'd have to go back and do it again.

[745] I went to have a seep over around my friends and then halfway through the night realised fuck I haven't kissed that photo of my granddad so I had to go home like that's how mad it is and now luckily with the numbers and the patterns and the sort of more the sort of more known about aspects of OCD if you will the more documented parts of it I don't necessarily have those I obsess over time and sunsets and sunrise which is weird but the cancer thing is something that really consumes my life and if anyone if there's an advert come on for cancer reasons I have to shoot up and turn it off and it's it's alarm bells in my head ding ding ding ding ding yeah there's been a few times during this this chat where my brain's gone off and it's like oh things like oh if you you need to write a will or oh how's what people what's going to happen to the channel when you die like all the little things yeah it's a weird it's a it's a strange thing but I spoke about this with joe weller on my podcast and I've had hundreds of people DM me on Instagram saying they have a similar thing and although I don't I don't reply to all of them.

[746] I try and get my way through as many as I can.

[747] Deep that, isn't it?

[748] Yeah, but, you know, on one hand, it was, because it's, it's not a world.

[749] I'm thankful, I'm thankfully, it's not a world that I, that I know, but I was sat there thinking, oh my God, you can't be the only one that's going through that.

[750] And it's so amazing that you're so honest about that, because there'll be people listening to this right now that go, that is me. And I'm, the concept of health anxiety seems so alien to me, but 15 times a day, you said thinking about cancer or death and mortality and it's not the prospect of you might have it it's my brain telling me I do have it there's no other outcome it'll be I'll be chatting to you now and then for a minute my head will be going oh remember you've got remember you you're ill yeah oh shit right okay I need to deal with that at some point and then it's almost like her that moment when you're when you're high and then you come back down and it's it's what the fuck and then I'm back in there's a rapper called NF who struggles with OCD and he talks about them he puts it into kind of like he says they're like black balloons that he's carrying around in his brain and every now and then one will float away or come back and I really resonate to that if anyone out there has got health anxiety and and resonate with some of the stuff that I'm saying today I check out check out NF he's got a few songs about health anxiety and OCD and they're it's pretty um it's they're pretty good they're pretty accurate.

[751] How does someone go about overcoming these things or curing them?

[752] Is it therapy?

[753] Is there other resources that they can seek?

[754] I have, I've never been able to do therapy in terms of because I don't truly know if I mill or not.

[755] I can't bring myself to get walk through the doctor's door because if I get that confirmation I melt down, I'd probably fucking do something silly.

[756] I don't know.

[757] So I don't want that confirmation so I'm the worst person to answer that because I would actively encourage people to go and, if they have a worry, like go and get a lump checked out, of course, why would you not?

[758] Or if you know you have this health anxiety, OCD, whatever mental disorder it may be, I would actively encourage people to go and talk to someone, whether that be therapy or whatever, but I can't do it.

[759] So I can't practice what I preach.

[760] My friend Liz, she bought me an OCD workbook, and I go through that every now and then and answer the questions and write things.

[761] And yeah, so it's a hard one for me to answer because I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to practice what I what I actually preach so you're you're too fearful to go and get a health check done yeah I couldn't do it I couldn't do it so like shop shut has come down in my brain like that because if I go there and the doctor's like yeah you're ill then that's the end for me there's no recovery process that's it and that's a mental thing I know that's not the right thing Fiona gets upset when she hears that but I can't maybe it will change when I have kids what do you mean that's the for you I can't live with knowing I'm ill so even because I've I've put so much time and effort into believing it myself my little breaks now when I'm like actually no I'm fine I'm fine if I ever got that confirmation I would I would shut down I would but it's that's why it's a disorder that's why it's not right it's weird living with living with those thoughts is um it's not an easy thing to do and you've found yourself and I my business partner you know you've met Dominic Greg.

[762] He went through a number of struggles, which he's been very open about, and he turned to alcohol as a way to kind of, like, self -medicate.

[763] And I remember coming downstairs when we lived at the Mickled door, didn't if you ever came to the McDonald's in Manchester, and finding him in the early hours of the morning, just drinking with the lights off like 3 a .m. And then thinking, like, oh, this guy's just a piss head, whatever, finding out years later that he had like some severe anxiety, suicidal ideation.

[764] He used to stand on the train station, he said, and consider, you know, jumping in front of the train and stuff.

[765] Did you ever find yourself medicating to try and escape some of these thoughts or realities you're living.

[766] Yeah.

[767] I still do it now.

[768] I still do it now.

[769] I, I, I, I will go out and drink with my mates and it's not a big problem now and nothing to worry about.

[770] And if it was, I wouldn't be sat here telling you about it.

[771] But I would go out and drink with my mates and then I would come home and carry on just drinking on my own because the OCD, the balloons fly away.

[772] And then I feel the shop shutter goes up and I've got this release that I've not thought about having cancer in the past five hours because I'm I've let loose on booze and then I'll come home and then start to sober up and don't want that I don't want my thoughts back again so I will sit there and I will drink more and it will get to six in the morning and the sun that's why I I obsess over sunrise as well because I because I just yeah it's just it's just a tough one I can't I struggle to sleep almost every night because that when I get in bed I I think about it more and that And then when the sunrise comes up and it's a new day and I know I has to start again, it's a tough one.

[773] So I obsess over sunrise times and I could probably tell you within 15 minutes, maybe when the sunrise is.

[774] I think it's probably like 652 right now, maybe.

[775] What's the significance of the sunrising?

[776] Because I panic so much at nighttime and that's when the worst thoughts come into my brain that I panic so much that I cannot sleep and I'm just in a circle of thinking cancer, cancer, cancer.

[777] And then, and then because it's like, I know I need sleep because I need to go and interview this person tomorrow or present for West Ham tomorrow.

[778] It's an important thing.

[779] It's important for everyone.

[780] So, but I have to be on camera.

[781] I can't have bags under my eyes as well.

[782] So, so I see it as an egg timer and I'm like, shit, shit, shit, shit, the sun's going to come up.

[783] And then I've not had any sleep.

[784] And I've got to go and perform.

[785] And so I'm checking my time.

[786] I need to know when the sun's coming up.

[787] So I obsess over that.

[788] Like, and another OCD.

[789] thing is I always have to turn my phone off on the 15 minutes.

[790] So I have to look at the time.

[791] Say it's 4 a .m. I have to see that 4 .00 for the light to turn off before I can settle.

[792] And if I miss that and it's 401, well, I'm up for another 14 minutes then because I need to see it hit 415.

[793] It's weird.

[794] And I don't mean to sound insensitive when I say that.

[795] It's weird because I have it myself.

[796] But it is an unusual thing.

[797] But there are a lot of people out there that have a similar thing so hit me up on DMs maybe we can have a chat did you sleep last night not really not no is it if there's any talk of death in any capacity i will relate that back to myself and obviously i lost my dog last night so i was just yeah just up thinking yeah it's weird because i even though that all that all those thoughts plague me and like this is like a therapy session for me like talking about this because i've owned fiona has heard this a hundred times and then no one else has really heard it but um even though those thoughts plagued me i am i just am so last night you find out your dog's passed away and you that sends you into sort of a spiral thinking about death more broadly and yourself um and that keeps you up last night yeah yeah yeah i i'm in a bit of a in a in a bit of a routine at the moment where like i've had like two, three hours sleep, have a really busy day today, drive back to Norwich, and then probably have two, three hours sleep tonight, two, three hours, until I become exhausted, and then I can just sleep all the way through one night.

[798] And it's a reset.

[799] So, like, I just work until I can't anymore.

[800] But the thing you were saying about Dom, drinking at, like, three in the morning, like, that is, that is, I've been that guy.

[801] I've been that guy 150 ,000 times.

[802] Like, yeah.

[803] So, when you said it, I could envision him there because I've been him.

[804] The thing that you said about your drinking pattern that I could really relate to is with all my mates we'd like come home after like being in Manchester or whatever and I would like drinking arc if it was a graph goes like up and then plateaus because we're like we've had enough but what you said is that you wanted to carry on drinking because you didn't want the sober thoughts back and that's exactly what I used to see and Dom I used to look at him and thinking why does he never want the party to stop Why does he never want anyone to go home?

[805] Why does he always, it seems like once he's had one, it's a straight line upwards until he is incapable of pouring another.

[806] Yeah.

[807] Whereas I would be like, I'd have three and then tail off and then want to be in bed by like 2 a .m. Right, yeah.

[808] And so I have mates that like you, and I'm the Dom in my group.

[809] And I can't, I could never understand the use.

[810] I can never understand how, why do you not want to carry on?

[811] like it doesn't make it doesn't make it's such a release for me such a break from my everyday thoughts what like i just assume everyone's going to be the same like you just want to go to bed and lay there with those thoughts like no way like let's just carry on and see the birds come up Fiona tell me about that you know it's it's it's hard enough um having a partner anyway when you're busy and you're you know focused on building your career as i found out but um when When you're dealing with difficult thoughts often, it can make it, I guess, an exacerbating factor so it can become more difficult.

[812] She's just the best thing that's ever happened to me. Like, she's just fucking incredible.

[813] Like, she will sit there and listen to me until six, seven in the morning.

[814] Just every time.

[815] Just talk about things.

[816] That's regardless of if I've been drinking or not, because I fear this podcast may make it sound like that's what I do all the time.

[817] It's not.

[818] Like, I will do that more frequently than most people.

[819] I probably have two of those nights a month, where I stay up until the silly hours.

[820] but compared to where I used to be it's it's not it's it's fine but she will just sit there and listen and she's not a drinker she never drinks um so she'll come out on a night out and we'll just be high on life which is brilliant and beautiful and I wish I had a bit of that um I don't so we're very much chalk and cheese in that respect but she keeps me going and there was a time in December where I'd stayed up too late and uh so it was now the early hours of Sunday morning and anxiety was running through my veins and I said I'm not going to go to work on Monday and I was hosting something for West Ham I said I can't do it I said I can't look people in the eyes I said the OCDs too much I'm I'm shaking I'm panicking I can't face it and she said oh you will do it I said don't force me to do it fee please I don't want to do it she said I'm not going to force you she I got up in bed and she had packed all my stuff that I needed and my laptop and put it in the car and then when I was ready she was like I've run you a bath you're going to get a bath and then we're going to go to London, just booked the hotel.

[821] I went to the hotel, woke up the next day, presented for West Ham, done a good job, smashed it, went driving home next day.

[822] I was a bit teary -eyed and was like, I need you to just push me into things.

[823] Because if I hadn't have done that, I'd have just been hated myself for ages.

[824] So she's very much my rock and sounds a bit cheesy and that, but I would not be making content now if it wasn't for her.

[825] What an amazing person?

[826] She's fucking beautiful, mate.

[827] yeah she's yeah she's incredible she's incredible some of the advice she gives me and stuff it's like and when I met her she was having bad panic attacks and I didn't know panic attacks were a thing I really didn't we was in covert garden and we and she just started shaking sat on the floor and I was like what the fuck's going on here and now she and she would she would do no public kind of if I was doing any public event she didn't want to be there she didn't want to be whatever and now it's completely flipped I've brought her into my world whether she wanted to or not being a byproduct of me for so long and now I'm a byproduct of her and she's my backbone and she's got all of her anxiety seemingly under control I'm sure she'd tell me if not and she doesn't have panic attacks and now I'm that guy and she's so yeah shout to Fiona shout to Fiona hero it's so lovely to hear you talk with such admiration about her as well because guys can sometimes they either avoid talking about their partners or they're a bit too tough to like give them the credit for the support role they play.

[828] But I think the same way with my girlfriend, who's actually upstairs now, who's been a real rock for me and a real stabilising force and really like helped me focus on what actually matters in life.

[829] It's like really, I think with my girlfriend, she's probably, I don't know if she's even through the curtain and she can hear me, but she doesn't particularly care about what I've achieved.

[830] It doesn't seem to care at all when I, if I made, if I made loads of money, it's more about the other things.

[831] Like in terms of being connected to my family and being a good human being.

[832] Yeah.

[833] Those are the kind of things she drives me on but um fees the same yeah issue yeah like me and my my family if i go around my nans on christmas day we're all like we get like i love my family of course i do but we'll watch tv the christmas specials whatever's on we'll go around fiona's house her family never turn the tv on for that for three or four days over the christmas period they sit there and they talk and they love each other and they embrace each other and for me it's i'm like this is weird like this is old fashioned like old school values yeah but she she just she's just so full of love and she just, yeah, she just brings everyone closer.

[834] She walks into a room, she brightens it, so.

[835] You want to be a dad someday?

[836] Jeez.

[837] Yeah, I do.

[838] Why was that question difficult?

[839] I don't know.

[840] I don't.

[841] I'm, I'm, I, I, I, me and Fia have spoken about it a lot, because I'm 29 now, soon in two weeks.

[842] So I'm getting, I feel like I have to kind of soon.

[843] You have to kind of soon?

[844] Yeah, I have to have a kid soon, surely.

[845] Like, I don't want to be what this, I don't, don't want to be a dad that's like 60 when they're like 20 so like I don't want to be I don't I can't have a kid but do you want to have a kid yeah I do want to have a kid I'd be a great I'd be a great dad but ideally not soon yeah I said when I was early 20s I said by the time I'm 25 and then when I was 25 I said by the time I'm 27 and then now I'm saying by the time I'm 30 but I've got just under 13 months so I don't think that's going to happen and Fiona's just had a, um, her sister's just had a baby.

[846] So Fiona's just become an auntie.

[847] And we love the little baby.

[848] Of course we do.

[849] But, course, hard work.

[850] And I can give it back.

[851] But I'm done.

[852] Does it feel a bit scary?

[853] For a lot of people, it's quite a scary prospect.

[854] For me, it's a little bit of a scary prospect too, because I think, what am I going to have to sacrifice to, I don't want to sacrifice anything.

[855] Mm. Yeah.

[856] Sacrifice something to find time, right?

[857] And sure.

[858] You're very career driven.

[859] Yes.

[860] Yeah.

[861] I just sort of run about from place to play.

[862] talking to people on a camera like I could have a kid and fee could stay at home and edit but I love my life so much I don't want it to change right now you can have a kid I hope so I hope so I'm looking through the curtain what's your um you know your talented right the Jack you know what your talent is right yeah what do you think your talent is it's a difficult question to ask people because it makes them feel uncomfortable but what you if you had to say like the reason I am sat here today and the root cause of my success, what would you diagnose it if you were talking about Jackmate from like a third party perspective?

[863] I think I can speak to most people on their level.

[864] So you can put me next to KSI.

[865] You can put me next to Debra Meaden and I'll be able to get a laugh out of them.

[866] And when they know the real me and I'm not trying to be Jackmate, I think that's a good, I think that's a good person.

[867] And I've never been the best YouTuber, which is probably why I don't do the typical YouTube anymore.

[868] I'm not the best presenter, but I'm one of the best podcasters, I would say.

[869] And I've found what it is I love and what it is I'm good at.

[870] So I would say I'm a really good talker.

[871] I would completely agree.

[872] I think you're much more talented than you give yourself credit for actually.

[873] Thank you.

[874] I look at some of the stuff you do specifically with presenting actually and podcasting, but presenting and podcasting.

[875] And it's clearly, it's almost a bit like Will Brazier, like clearly a real talent that is, in my view, possible to replicate.

[876] Like I like, and you talked about potentially in the future doing some stand -up stuff.

[877] I saw you talking about that before.

[878] You'd be great at that.

[879] And I could never do like I don't believe I could have.

[880] I shouldn't be such a pessimistic person.

[881] You did it.

[882] You've been doing big theater productions, right?

[883] I'm not there making people.

[884] I'm not trying to make people laugh.

[885] I'm trying to make them cry.

[886] It's like it's like a completely.

[887] Yeah, but that's a fine line in comedy.

[888] If you can make, if you can make someone cry, you can make someone laugh.

[889] It's all about emotions.

[890] That's what it's all about.

[891] Do you know what it is?

[892] It's like the labels we give ourselves, and I've never labeled myself as like a funny person.

[893] I've never told myself that I can make people laugh, whereas you do that.

[894] You do that very, almost like effortlessly.

[895] And I think, to be honest, I think you've been practicing since you're a kid, as you've said.

[896] So I did, um, I did two shows, um, opening up for Max Fosh in November.

[897] And they were the best moments ever.

[898] Of your life.

[899] Yeah.

[900] And that was stand up.

[901] Yeah.

[902] Yeah.

[903] I feel a bit silly saying it because Max Fosh did an hour.

[904] a beautiful show.

[905] And it was called Zocial Butterfly.

[906] It was spelt with a Zed for a reason that becomes clear in the show.

[907] But he had presentations and everything.

[908] And he came on my podcast.

[909] I said, oh, you're a real stand -up now.

[910] You've just done a tour all up and down.

[911] He was like, no, I don't feel like a stand -up because I had these aides and it was almost just whatever.

[912] And then I felt like an idiot because I'd just done five minutes opening up for him.

[913] And I was putting online, I've just done my dream.

[914] But I had.

[915] I had.

[916] I was, I was so nervous.

[917] I pretty much had a panic attack before I went out.

[918] I was looking at Fiego and I can't do it.

[919] Shaken, couldn't do it, couldn't do it.

[920] Had all my little jokes written on my hand there.

[921] But they'd already sweated off.

[922] And I tell you what, Steve, like, I put myself down a lot.

[923] And we've spoken about self -deprecating humor.

[924] I went out on stage.

[925] Max Fosh just suddenly went, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the stage, I went out.

[926] And that was what I was meant to be doing.

[927] Like everything, any comedian that told me on my podcast came to me in that moment.

[928] And I learned that and applied it on the stage.

[929] And I had people eating at the podcast.

[930] my hand and I would make a joke and I would but when I did a bit of stand up years ago I rushed through it because I wanted it to be over I was in the moment and I was able to live in the moment and leave pauses and hit beats and it was well good I walked out and the guy in in the front row had my merch on so really there's one guy here that knows so I was able to talk to him you want to do that more yeah I will do it now now I know I can do it I will do it there's no feeling like that like in front of people live and they're just you know Hearing that laugh is, I've never done heroin, but I imagine that's what it's like to do, to get that hit.

[931] And I want that, I want that back.

[932] That was like the biggest rush that I've felt in a long time.

[933] And are you thinking about doing that as a happy, under the Happy Hour brand?

[934] I think I'll do a happy hour show, whatever that may be, but then I also want to do a Jack Dean or Jack mate stand -up show.

[935] I've got loads on those of stand -up bits written down.

[936] I've got notepads and Macs, books full of, full of jokes.

[937] So, yeah.

[938] There's nothing like it.

[939] There's nothing like the real world.

[940] We get kind of lost in the digital world as like content creators or whatever, but last night and the last few nights at the pladium have been the most like, uh, nothing has made me feel as alive as that.

[941] So anyway, Israel, I should know, I don't normally say this, but fuck it.

[942] You know Israel was here yesterday, so you know it's the questions from him.

[943] Usually we don't tell people who the question's from.

[944] Right.

[945] But Israel Adesania wrote a question for you.

[946] And be mind, this is the goat of fighting.

[947] This is the goat, right?

[948] Yeah.

[949] He wrote a question for you.

[950] He wrote, and you've got to answer this with total honesty.

[951] That's the only rule here.

[952] You've got to answer it with detail.

[953] He said, how are you truly feeling?

[954] Content.

[955] I was going to say happy, but I still have some issues.

[956] I need to iron out.

[957] So I'm content.

[958] And I feel privileged to be where I am.

[959] that's what I'll say you probably wanted a better answer but there we go so you're getting perfect thank you so much thank you for your time and I'm so glad we finally got to do this because you've been an inspiration for me I think centrally because of your willingness to be so open and honest with things and I don't think you'll ever see the impact that that openness has on thousands hundreds of thousands and millions of people it's like I think more people need to do need to find it within themselves to do that because as you've said today it's liberating for you, like the therapy of just being able to say it kind of lifts the weight, but it also lifts the weight for everybody listening.

[960] And so I applaud you for that and your self -awareness about the journey you've come on as a creator, as a man, and your maturity.

[961] So thank you.

[962] It's a pleasure to sit here and thank you for the inspiration.

[963] No, thank you, mate.

[964] It means a lot.

[965] And thank you for having me on the show.

[966] It's great show.

[967] So, yeah, let's do mine and we'll speak about your favorite sandwich.

[968] Let's go do it.