#460 - Kron Gracie

[0] The Joe Rogan experience.

[1] Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[2] So a few years back, my friend Gordon Hester, who's a guy that I met on the internet, said, hey, do you want to have dinner with Hicks and Gracie?

[3] So I said, fuck, yeah, man. If you are a jiu -jitsu practitioner, there's, it's very rare in a sport.

[4] I guess there's a few sports, like if you think bike racing.

[5] you think you think Lance Armstrong unfortunately now but that's the name but the universal name that gets thrown about in Jiu Jitsu there's the last name which is Gracie and then once you get to know Jiu Jitsu and you understand Jiu Jitsu and you get you start training everybody always wants to know who's the best who's the best who's the best who's the best universally regarded as the all -time best is your father your father Hicks and Gracie this is not much debate amongst jujitsu people.

[6] There's debate as to who's the best right now, but I talked to Henzo about this one time, and Henzo just shook his head, and he goes, he's a motherfucker.

[7] He goes, he's a motherfucker.

[8] He's just laughing.

[9] He's like, he's the best.

[10] He's the best.

[11] And when a guy like Henzo says something, I just listen.

[12] You know?

[13] Me too.

[14] So what is, that's when I met you.

[15] You were with your dad, and we went and had some dinner, and then we went back to your house and we watched some fights, which was amazing to have your dad break down what guys are doing wrong and what's wrong with their positioning, what's wrong with their approach and what his approach is.

[16] And for me, as a student of martial arts and as a fan of martial arts, it was a huge honor, you know, and you were, I think, were like 16 or 17 back then.

[17] Yeah, something like that.

[18] You were into rap music and all kinds of different shit.

[19] So from that, you know, I've run into a few times over the years when Hoyce fought Matt Hughes and a couple other times, you've become yourself like one of the most prominent Jiu -Jitsu fighters in the world today.

[20] And that's so cool to see.

[21] It's so cool to see a young kid with aspirations and then put in the work.

[22] And it's also cool to see the son of a great man. become a great man himself, which is very difficult.

[23] And it doesn't really happen that often.

[24] You know, a lot of times the son of a great man lives in the shadow of his father and sort of falls short.

[25] But you in your young life, you're 25 now?

[26] 25.

[27] In your young life, you've already carved out a great name in Jiu -Jitsu with your own accomplishments.

[28] You're widely considered to be amongst the very best in the world at Jiu -Jitsu.

[29] And how does that feel?

[30] It feels great, you know.

[31] finally after so long of you know because I knew when I was a little kid that I was going to have to be a fighter or be a martial artist and have to yeah I mean have to really as much as my dad like wants to make it feel like he didn't put pressure on me and and you know he did you know people say he teaches invisible jihitsu well I'll talk about invisible pressure you know like yeah like at an early age when first when I'm a little kid I can kind of always see you know how how much my dad trains and how much he how big he is a part of what he does in the world and how much people respect him and how much recognition he gets so from a very early age you know you want to replicate that and you want to do you know what your father does if it feels like cool to you and it's always been really cool to me of course when I was like younger up until like 12 years old I used to skate a lot and jiu -jitsu was kind of whatever but I knew that in the future that that was what I was going to have to do no matter what so you know it came to a point where I kind of put skateboarding aside and I had gotten hurt skateboarding a bunch of times and I was like you know what I don't I don't care about skateboarding as much as I do jihitsu I'm not going to be as good as a skateboarder as I can be with jihitsu which this kind of all it clicked for me one day with my brother you know we we were talking and and everything and this was like one of the last conversations we had and and he was always like you know crone you could whatever you do in life you do it 100 % you know you you do it the best you can do it you know if you're going to be a dentist you be the best dentist if you can be a skateboarder you be the best skateboarder but the only difference is right here you have an opportunity to do jiu jitsu and you have the best road you have the best dad as a coach you have the best all the tools you you need to to really be the best you can be and and and it would be stupid for you not to really take advantage of this.

[32] And that kind of happened when I was 12.

[33] And after my brother passed, I kind of really, really put effort into that.

[34] And I kind of really made it my mission to make him proud and to make my dad proud.

[35] And I kind of knew what I had in my hands.

[36] But at that age, you never know how good you're going to get and you never know what's going to happen.

[37] So I just kind of dedicated myself, dedicated myself.

[38] And then, you know, when we met each other, I was still fully dedicated, but I still hadn't achieved, you know, anything, really.

[39] And I think, like, with the, for me, like, in life when you, when you try, when you try, when you try, when you try, is you only get, like, what you think you're going to get way later, you know.

[40] Like, I put so much dedication into it by 16 years old, but I hadn't seen any of the fruits and I hadn't seen any necessarily, like, big reward.

[41] from it, you know.

[42] So it was basically just the passion of being able to train Jiu -Jitsu and being able to do what I knew was my mission.

[43] And I kind of lost my track a little bit of what I was going to say, but so basically from that age, you know, it was, it was always like I knew that I had to do that, you know, as much as, as much as things would always, like, there's always like little things that go in your head that you might want to, like, change or whatever.

[44] But in my mind, it was never an option.

[45] not to do jujitsu and never an option not to be the best I could be and to be the best in the world that was always like where I was going to be I never had a plan B I never had a oh I was just going to try this and then if this doesn't work out I'll try I'd never had that for me it was always this was where I put my energy in so I kind of just put my energy into it and um you know from a very early age from 12 13 14 everybody knew me as crone hickson son oh you're hickson son oh you're hickson so So I already kind of hated that, you know.

[46] I hated being called Hickson's son.

[47] I hated being called somebody that I wasn't, you know, and, like, being recognized for something that I didn't do.

[48] Somebody other than who you are.

[49] Yeah, so I kind of always knew that if I wanted to climb out of this name and climb out of this shadow, I would have to work twice as hard.

[50] And it was going to be, you know, a real obstacle for me to get past this.

[51] And that's what I, in my mind, that was my ending goal no matter what.

[52] I wanted to be my own man. I wanted to be able to represent.

[53] you know, myself and my family and everything.

[54] And I wanted to be able to be, you know, remembered as, you know, somebody who kept it going, you know, kept the legacy going.

[55] For folks who don't have any experience in martial arts, I'll try to explain this to people.

[56] There's, when you really stop and think about the history of martial arts, there's the most important moment, in my opinion, of modern martial arts, was Hoyst Gracie entering into the UFC in 1993.

[57] When Hoyce Gracie entered the UFC, we saw for the first time in a real application, we saw what we had always wanted to see in the movies.

[58] A smaller man with technique defeating larger men.

[59] A smaller man utilizing leverage and utilizing his skills to defeat everybody in front of him.

[60] And from that, we got introduced to the name Gracie.

[61] We got introduced to your father.

[62] We got introduced to Aalio, your grandfather, who was the most important figure in all of martial arts.

[63] For folks who don't know, martial arts, for the longest time, for thousands of years, there was all this debate about what was the best style, whether it was karate or whether it was kung fu.

[64] There was all these different people that swore that their master could defeat a thousand men in unarmed combat.

[65] No one knew what the real deal was until the UFC came along, and that was when the world got introduced to the name Gracie.

[66] What is it like growing up in that environment, and when did you realize that your family was different than everybody else?

[67] I mean, you come from the most important family in the history of martial arts.

[68] Martial arts is what every man wants to be able to do.

[69] Every man wants to be able to offend himself.

[70] every man wants to be able to kick ass the most important family in my opinion is the Gracie family there's no comparison yeah I mean you don't really think about it like that when you're in the Grace family you're kind of just born into this thing where it's all about martial arts and it's all about dedication and discipline and you come from you know tradition so you don't really think about from the outside point of view you know for me it's just been a very normal thing to you know train jihitsu in the liver room to talk about how to defend yourself to talk about you know leverage and health and all this this is just very normal for me you know it was never new seeing somebody getting a fight it's more interesting than it is like oh a shock so it's never been nothing big but you know the older I get the more I kind of realize of how big what I'm a part of you know and how important it is and that only motivates me more to really you know step up and be able to keep this going because, you know, my grandfather was a crazy dude, you know, he would challenge, you know, anybody, and his goal was to represent jiu -jitsu and to prove that jitsu was the best.

[71] And that guy weighed 135 pounds, and he was not a physically fit dude.

[72] And, you know, it goes to show how powerful his spirit was.

[73] And what he did, he changed the world, you know, he made it so that a weak person could defeat a bigger opponent.

[74] And, you know, with my dad, with him, you know, leading everything and taking charge, and trying to spread, you know, he was a very, very important person in all of our lives.

[75] You know, he made it possible for a weak person to be able to defeat a bigger opponent to, you know, have the self -confidence to believe in something other than a physical form, you know, to believe in the leverage.

[76] And he, you know, his theory and what he put onto his children is what gave not only the leverage and the technique but also put physical abilities on top of it so my dad got all the theory of the leverage and being a weak person and how to survive if you're weaker but my dad wasn't he wasn't weak he was strong so he used the technique and the leverage and the strength on top of it which created a monster you know he created you know somebody who is physically strong but trains like as if he was a very lightweight of not a physically strong person so he's able to really maximize his potential and me coming up into this you know again like it's always just been a fun thing and something to be a part of and it only kind of really clicked that that you know the older you get the more if you realize how part of it and sometimes I kind of look outside of from myself and I kind of think man I'm in a this is crazy you know this is like a movie you know like my grandfather was this legend and my dad is this legend and and you know like I'm the only son and and you know it's like a movie like and I'm not only in my the only son, but I'm also being able to be able to prove that it's still in the genes and it's still a powerful thing that we're dealing with.

[77] So I'm overwhelmed sometimes.

[78] I kind of look back and I'm very grateful for the situation and obviously God put me in the situation and put us in the situation for a reason.

[79] Now, most recently you won the Abu Dhabi Submission Championships, which in the world of grappling is the most prestigious no -gi submission title in the world.

[80] And for folks, no -gi, there's two different types of jiu -jitsu.

[81] There's jiu -jitsu with the kimono.

[82] You know, it looks like, you know, judo uniform.

[83] That's the ghee.

[84] And then there's jiu -jitsu with no -ghi, which is much like wrestling or the type of techniques that you would see in the UFC because they're not grabbing clothes.

[85] Very different, very different in as far as the pace of things.

[86] things but Abu Dhabi's the this is the most prestigious championship in the world so you accomplished like you you hit the top of the mountain you know you became much like the others in the Gracie family before you you became a champion what was that feeling like it's a great feeling you know there's no complaints about that and you know I think this is in my perfect world in my dream if you would have asked me if I would have won the Abu Dhabi I would have said of course.

[87] I would have won it probably much more times by this age if you would have asked me when I was 15 years old.

[88] But, you know, in life, it's not so easy, you know.

[89] And for me, my life, everything was easy, you know.

[90] Purple Belt was easy.

[91] Brown belt was easy.

[92] So I never had had this obstacle of challenges and I never really had to dig deep and figure out what, what is, what am I about, really.

[93] So my first, I won everything.

[94] I was undefeated.

[95] as a purple and brown belt, and then my first match as a black belt, I lost.

[96] I got my ass warped.

[97] And it was a mix of a bunch of things that I came to my conclusion of why that happened.

[98] But in the end, I think that I was just not mentally ready for that.

[99] And I let all these outside things affect me. And anyways, I lost the fight and really dug deep to see what I was going to do in my life.

[100] And, you know, after you realize what happens and how you can prevent it and how you're going to get better, then you start to really work hard for what you want to get.

[101] And after that moment, I kind of started to really become a man and really understand sacrifice and how to work hard.

[102] And if you want something in life, you can't depend on anybody for it.

[103] And you can't ask anybody for it.

[104] You have to go and really work hard to get it.

[105] And that, I think, I started to really become a man as a black belt.

[106] And that's when I really put my energy into it.

[107] And, you know, I've lost tournaments.

[108] I've won lots of tournaments, and sometimes I lose because of points, and I've never really been about points, but ultimately I feel like now, after so long of being on this journey of this hard path, I finally kind of started to find myself in the past couple years, and I'm finally getting the results that I've wanted a long time ago, and I've realized a lot more about life and about myself than if I would have just won everything.

[109] thing.

[110] So that's a great situation to be in.

[111] I work really hard for this first place medal, so it's going to be hard for somebody to take it from me. That is an interesting thing, isn't it, that you need defeat in order to really inspire you to the greatness that's inside of you.

[112] You need to feel adversity to rise to the occasion.

[113] Of course.

[114] You fought, was it Sergio Moran?

[115] Yeah.

[116] Who's a very, very good black belt, and he's fighting in the UFC now.

[117] Yeah.

[118] One of the best jujitsu guys in the UFC, really fantastic technique.

[119] that's a guy that you're connected to forever now because of that right i thank him in my mind i thank him a lot and i got promoted like two weeks before the world championships and my dad's always like life is about surprises and about challenges and he's like you want this blackbell and i was had submitted 55 straight and i was yeah i want this challenge let's see the little did i know he was going to fucking shake my world and um but i'm grateful for for it and and it's great you know i have no no complaints and i wouldn't have changed anything what is it like growing up i mean in your you're going into this world of martial arts with a guy like that as your father like what kind of advice did he give you best advice i mean that's i think that's what made me who i am and be able to really become my own man at this age is the advice that my dad gave me was such a you know it's easy in life to be drifted by things and to be drifted by what people say and what you personally think and say and feel.

[120] So, you know, always being able to have my dad give me good advice and be able to be my father and to teach me how to be a man, not just jiu -jitsu, not just being good at technique, but being able to be a good person, being humble, and doing the best that you can, I think that's what allows me to become great at jiu -jitsu and what allows me to become great at whatever I do.

[121] and you know for me i never really had that much training sessions with my father people think he was there coaching me every day training on the sidelines with the water bottle and all the shit that's never existed and but one thing i do am very grateful for is um when i started to train really hard at like 12 years old my dad wasn't training at the academy my brother had passed and he was just on his own search you know so he disappeared from the academy but every night I'd come home and he would be there and he wouldn't ask me how was school.

[122] He would ask me how was training and I would tell him, oh, man, I got smashed or this happened or I got stuck in this position.

[123] So at the dinner table or in front of the TV, he would give me an answer to my problem and he would give me advice, you know, whether it'd be about jiu -jitsu technique or whether it would be about what happened here or how to react to what this person did.

[124] And so my learning, my jiu -jitsu, really growth happened over food, over, you know, watching TV, you know, that's where I really learned what I learned and then went back and trained at the academy and practiced what I was taught.

[125] So most of my jiu -jitsu I learned through verbal, like just like conversations at the dinner table and, you know, being able to do, you know, from that really.

[126] your dad had that approach which was different than hoist's approach and different than many other people's approach this approach of mastering the physical as well as mastering technique you know your dad is an accomplished yogi it's very physically strong that was one thing that really separated him from a lot of the other people in the gracie family yeah i definitely think so i think what separates my dad from not only everybody in the family but from most fighters is his not only his mental strength, but his spiritual strength.

[127] And he's a very spiritual person, and I think that's huge, you know, especially now in my life realizing how important that is a part of me. I think being spiritually connected to yourself and connected to whatever is above us is something that really sometimes things you can't explain happen when you're that connected.

[128] So my dad has always been a very spiritual person.

[129] You know, he's done all the things that he does for.

[130] his purpose you know if you talk to him for about money money is just you know secondary to to what his beliefs are and what so as opposed to some people who they will go against what they believe in or they will go against their spirituality for a paycheck so my dad you know never never did that you know he never took you know sponsors for for beer or whatever you know because he doesn't believe that that's necessarily the image that he wants to go with And I think, you know, he's a very spiritual person.

[131] And he, and I still, even to the day, I'm, like, surprised with how much of a, how much honor and, you know, like, you know, it's just weird to describe how good he's done for Jiu -Jitsu, really.

[132] Growing up in that atmosphere, that's an incredible role model to have, like to have that as your dad, this guy that's got such a high moral standard.

[133] And he, how did he get into yoga?

[134] Because that's another thing that really separated him from a lot of other martial artists and really opened up a lot of people's eyes to the beneficial aspects of yoga.

[135] So he got into yoga with this guy Orlando Cunning, who was a Brazilian yoga guy, who basically his whole theory was breathing with your movements.

[136] So being able to, because yoga is usually you breathe and you stop and you kind of breathe and you just do your movements and you're kind of just static.

[137] but he kind of incorporated breathing with movement and being able to like he would be like oh I'm an animal I'm a tiger so he would walk like a tiger and he would breathe like a tiger and he would visualize himself like a tiger so he started to be able to to not only do that as an animal but he started to transfer it over to jiu jitsu and being able to because this theory with the guy's theory orlando cunning's theory was animals are perfect you know they move and they breathe and they don't get tired and everything is in sync.

[138] So his whole theory was the better you can do that, the more you can replicate that, the more you're going to be able to be efficient with whatever you do.

[139] And the yoga for my dad, I guess, was a huge, huge part.

[140] And since the little kid, he kind of always told me about breathing and yoga and I never cared and I just kind of brushed it off until when you get older and you start really having difficulty.

[141] when you really start searching and really start having problems, then I started to start to breathe more.

[142] And now I think that the breathing is a huge part of myself, and it's a huge part of my growth, and it's a huge part of me being able to be in tune with what I'm doing.

[143] So I wouldn't take away that for anything, and I think that's probably one of the biggest additions to myself that I could have added.

[144] Yeah, the yoga breathing is a thing.

[145] Pranayama, is that what they're?

[146] call it i don't know uh yeah pranayama um is uh is a huge part of uh what a lot of people are missing when it comes to the idea of yoga they don't they don't understand that deep breathing and breathing exercises are they're very difficult to do it's it's very difficult and it becomes like a a factor of motivate you can do this shit too right the shit you dad does with the abdomen of course yeah i do that um what is that that crazy video it Folks who haven't seen this is a documentary called Choke.

[147] It's an amazing documentary.

[148] And it was back when Hickson was competing in Japan Valley Tudow.

[149] Was it like 1995 or something like that?

[150] Yeah, 94 -95.

[151] And there's a video that really like open up a lot of people's eyes of him doing yoga and moving his stomach around with these weird stomach exercises.

[152] What is that?

[153] So your diaphragm, well, I can.

[154] kind of explained, but basically your lungs are like bottles.

[155] They start skiing at the top and then they fill up to be big at the bottom.

[156] So when you normally breathe you, you're only filling up a small portion of your lungs and when you get scared or when you have anxiety, everything, it shortens your breath.

[157] Panic breathing.

[158] Yeah.

[159] So that's what normally happens.

[160] That's what's very normal for humans.

[161] And being able to breathe through your diaphragm is filling your lungs to the max and and being able to control that is so your diaphragm is a muscle and you need to train it like a push -up or like anything you do you need to train your muscle so the more you train your muscle the more control you have over it and that is just being able to have the highest control of your diaphragm muscle and when you have that kind of control you can filter your body out easier as opposed to like right now if you don't train it you can't even like use diaphragm so that just that simple movement is is a difficult is a difficult thing to do you have to train to do that and then being able to do the so what you're doing is you're breathing in deep and then you're you're pulling your diaphragm in that actual exercise that you do is you exhale you have no oxygen in your lungs and then you use your then you just kind of massage your diaphragm and you kind of just have that kind of control so you're just practicing like how to move it because when you're training and you're tired and if you have to think about to breathe it's already too much so you should just have it it's like one of those things that start fire when you push out it's when you open it up it fills up naturally so if you learn how to breathe through your diaphragm you naturally are going to filter way more oxygen and you're going to have everything's going to be better like that's the reason why I can train as long as I can train and why I can stay clear and normally a lot of people they get gassed out or they or they feel like they're going to pass out or they get anxiety so being able to breathe correctly is a huge part of my growth I think did you learn that from your dad the diaphragm breathing yeah what does he call it what is there a name for it no because we're not necessarily like yoga crazy you know super into a specific type I think I just use yoga for my benefit and I'm not like a ride or die of us certain type of yoga, I just kind of use yoga for what I do, for jiu -sitsu and how to become a better person.

[162] So I don't know exactly what the name is or anything.

[163] It's just being able to breathe and being able to use my diaphragm and being able to stay calm and learn how to manage my energy.

[164] So that has helped me not only with jiu -jitsu, but anything new I do or if I'm going to come here on an interview, if I start to get nervous, you know, I breathe and it goes away so the breathing has helped me become is giving me really an opportunity to do everything that i can do yeah i do a lot of deep breathing exercises um in a sensor deprivation tank and one of the things that i do is uh the long breathing like i'll i'll have an inhale that lasts a minute yeah and then the exhale lasts a minute and it is it's a discipline like you have to force yourself to maintain that pace because you you get to a panic you just want to fuck this this but you can stay alive and keep doing it you can do it and you can still stay alive and keep doing it but it's it becomes this weird thing where your body starts freaking out it's like breathe motherfucker stop breathing out breathe breathe breathe in yeah but breathe out for a minute and then breathe in for a minute breathe out for a minute there yeah there is different types of exercise i know like sometimes if i'm if i'm trying to stay calm i'm going to breathe slower if i'm trying to get energy i'm going to breathe faster if i'm trying to maintain a high pace I'm going to, you know, it's like a car.

[165] When you drive a car, if you're driving slow, it's like, uh, uh, but if you drive fast, the car's like, ah, so you need, like when I train, if I bring in a very intensation, I'll breathe loud, like, ha, ha, um, to make sure I'm getting enough oxygen to, to keep up with what I'm doing physically.

[166] So I definitely am very grateful for being able to have that a part of my life.

[167] And it's cool, man. It's really good.

[168] I only experienced that breathing for the first time in Jiu -Jitsu after a lifelong of martial arts.

[169] I never heard anybody breathe like that until I started training.

[170] And then at John Jock's Academy and hearing people, you know, hearing like black belts roll or hear guys roll like, what the fuck are they doing?

[171] I was a white belt like, looking around with everybody doing it.

[172] It was such a strange thing.

[173] And John Jock explained to me that, you know, when you breathe out, you will definitely breathe in.

[174] force yourself to breathe out and then get rid of all the bad air in your body and breathe in fresh oxygen and then the forcing it out is something that people don't concentrate enough on yeah when you normally want to breathe you breathe in and then that only fills up that top part you know so if you i mean there's a lot about it but i think it's definitely a huge part of my success today and it's also a huge part of my dad's success yeah i would recommend to anybody who is interested in this to go and just look up various yoga breathing videos on YouTube and just follow along with them.

[175] And you get a great benefit from that.

[176] And it's something that people don't really think too much about concentrating and controlling your breathing.

[177] And there's also a great meditative quality to that too.

[178] One of the first breathing exercises I ever did when I was really young, somebody told me that you can meditate by just concentrating only on your breath.

[179] Just not even a breathing exercise, but just breathe in good and out bad.

[180] And think of nothing but those things.

[181] Think as you're breathing in, you're taking in oxygen, and as you're breathing out, you're just pumping out in with the good, out with the bad.

[182] Just think of those things.

[183] And think only of your breath.

[184] And by forcing yourself to concentrate on that, it sort of filters out everything in your life.

[185] And it all becomes like background.

[186] Everything else sort of calms down.

[187] And you get this feeling after you're done doing that.

[188] If you do that for an hour, everything else sort of like the importance of things that you thought were so big and so crazy in your life.

[189] this is fucked up what am we going to do about that it seems less important after that yeah i think the breathing keeps me in touch with my spirituality and being able to breathe like i've gotten into some some super gnarly trances where i'm you know really connected to whatever is above us and and that's through the breathing so that like being able to breathe and like after your training or during your training or however you you like to do it has given me like huge huge benefits and I connect myself to when I'm training like being able to breathe puts me in a in a very animal like state where it's like me against you it's not I'm not thinking about what you're doing I'm not thinking about I am thinking about what you're doing but I'm not thinking about things it's more of like a feeling and that feeling the closer you are to that feeling it keeps you almost above your mind above you can actually think it's more like of an animal instinct.

[190] And that, like, man, since I started to really incorporate the breathing and connecting it to my jiu -jitsu, it's giving me way more.

[191] Well, there's a whole group of people that use breathing.

[192] It's called holotropic breathing, and they use it to achieve psychedelic states.

[193] I've achieved psychedelic states for sure.

[194] What's the most intense state you've ever achieved while breathing?

[195] Oh, I mean, a couple times after training when I'm really exhausted, like I'm very, very, very, very exhausted to a point where you wanted to stop training like 30, 40 minutes before.

[196] And then after, I'll do a breathing and breathing, and I'll just keep going into the breathing.

[197] And as I start to breathe and start to get more in tune, there nothing exists.

[198] And it's just me and I can almost see the particles in the air.

[199] And I can, it's just like a sensation that, you know, I've only felt a couple times, but I definitely have gotten in touch with like it's it's very it's very intense to like to get to that point where you just feel it's almost like you can see the air it's almost like you can see and like all these little things and it's it's pretty intense so I've gotten to that point a couple of times where three or four points where where I feel like where I can actually feel the energy and it was a great thing man I'm like after if you feel high and you're smile and you're like man this is like crazy and it's crazy that you can how much we're capable of as humans and how much we do is is so big and you know you think about the actual world and how the actual world is is like this planet we should be in touch with something above you know we should be able to in touch with how this got to this or how there's water how so all me all these things that we today are like oh no that's this that's this oh this is that it's so much much more you can't explain shit you know so it's like really i go a lot more about my feelings these days than anything else you know over my rational decision i kind of try to feel how things are i feel how people are i feel how i how i feel about this training session whatever it is i kind of try to go more about feeling because that's never failed me before so this these breathing techniques and these states that you achieve they give you a sort of a fresh perspective they give you a perspective of recognizing the greatness and the beauty and the magnitude of life that sometimes escapes us in our normal everyday path where you know you just sort of take for granted that that's a door this is the house go outside that's the sky it becomes normal but these breathing techniques and the just the psychedelic states that you achieve from them allow you to so almost like a reset button yeah it's pretty cool man I really recommend breathing and for anybody who is doing anything in their life whether it be something you know whether you're trying to get through a tough situation whether you're arguing with your girlfriend or whether you're stuck in traffic or whether you're trying to stay calm while somebody's trying to choke you the breathing has given me and it took a long time it's not like oh boom i started breathing i got it it's actually took a long time before you really value it because when my dad started telling me this i kind of didn't care and i was just like whatever whatever he's got all kinds of she's always telling me shit so i'm all right but after you know the older I got the more I kind of started to have stress and have to deal with these pressure and then I kind of started to do it every once in a while and then now it's at a point where the past few years I've really stepped it up a lot and it's really a big part of my my training and my and everything I do so even when I skateboard now I'm like trying to breathe and I'm trying to like keep keep everything in tune so I can do the best I can do the last time when we had dinner together your dad was still talking about competing he had he had stopped but he was still thinking about fighting he was still there was people you know there's always a threat on the underground is one of the big themes on the underground is Hickson by Arm Bar they would joke around about anything you know who'd win Godzilla versus King Kong Hickson by Arm Bar it was just an inside joke like when someone something couldn't be answered someone just write Hickson via Arm Bar um did did he have any regrets that he didn't fight any of the big name guys that he didn't continue we were talking about him fighting fador you know he was uh he was saying that if he did fight someone he would want to fight fador who was the champ of pride at the time yeah i think that i don't know if there's any regrets or anything i think it was just a time in my dad's life where um well right after my brother passed you know he he got offered to fight sakuraba and it It was a big, big payday, and it was a big, big fight.

[200] And, of course, my dad, being the man he is, he wasn't going to just leave the family to go train for a fight and to take his selfish needs into consideration.

[201] So he kind of just turned away the fight and kind of gave his energy to the family and tried to do what he could to help everybody.

[202] And after that time passes, there's still, like, some people wanting to have him fight and he was maybe fighting fatal or maybe this.

[203] But I think after that moment, he kind of just, the time passed.

[204] You know, his fighting, that time had passed for his, even though it was a still possibility for him to fight, I think that he necessarily, he was ready to fight.

[205] And as a man, he was ready to die.

[206] But I don't think that necessarily it was, I'm glad that he didn't fight after that.

[207] I'm glad that he, you know, it happened the way it did, and he retired the way he did.

[208] and he still has, you know, the greatest image.

[209] So I think that it's a great thing that it went the way it did, you know.

[210] Like my dad is a great fighter and he's a great mind and that separates him from everybody else.

[211] But I think that everything went fine, even though whatever happened, I think that he didn't need to fight.

[212] He didn't need to prove anything to anybody else.

[213] And even if he did fight, win or lose, that would have been him at his best, you know.

[214] I think my dad did enough from when he was 15 to when he was 40 he proved enough people wrong he did what he had to do he was ready you know you don't know what it's like nobody knows what it's like to be having to be ready to fight to die at any moment motherfuckers come in your academy and they challenge you you got this guy telling that he doesn't believe in jiu -jitsu so nobody knows what that feels like to have to be ready everybody now oh you want to fight okay give me three months or six months I'm going to train for my fight but to be have to be ready at any time any no matter what you know that's where my dad lives like from 15 years old to 40 years old so he needed to retire he needed to be able to not be ready he needed to be able to release and I think that was the best thing for him and it was the best thing for his life and now I think it's all good and it's just a very tough situation man a lot of people don't know how serious my dad took of course people know how serious but you only see the the glory you know you don't see how he really is as a man and how you really make it your life you know and fighting is a big thing it's probably the hardest thing to do and you know that guy was ready at any time anywhere ready to prove ready to prove the family was was better ready to prove that he was better and you know that's what gives me inspiration to to wake up in the mornings and do what I do and I only really do it because of him and my brother I only really compete because of him and my brother.

[215] My motivation is to keep him happy and to keep this family remembered instead of just, oh, the graces were good when nobody knew Jiu -Jitsu, but now everybody doesn't, they're not the shit.

[216] They're no matter.

[217] So I think it's important for my life.

[218] I've already kind of am willing to sacrifice my life and willing to sacrifice whatever I feel and how I like things to be for the bigger objective, which is to keep my father and my grandfather, you know, a lot of live and well in their legacy.

[219] Were you there for any of those challenge matches, like when Anjo came to the dojo?

[220] I was a little kid.

[221] At that time, I was like maybe four or five years old, and I remember the days happening and it's happening.

[222] I wasn't there at the specific invite because not even my dad was at the academy.

[223] My dad was at home eating breakfast, and the guys came in and called him.

[224] I was like, dude, guys in Japan are invading the academy.

[225] So my dad got up and, like, got ready.

[226] ready to go to the academy and that was like another thing like he just waked up thought it was going to be another day for him to go on a bike ride and then motherfuckers outside the academy ready to challenge you with all this press and you know if you lose it's just as like a real fight you know for folks who don't know that's is one historical match that apparently uh gordon hester said he's seen the video there's uh yoji anjo who's a pro wrestler and mima fighter in japan just showed up at the academy and uh hickson took him into a back room and beat the fucking shit out of him.

[227] And your dad, you know, he came out and, you know, Yoji Andrew's face.

[228] Just photos of his face online where he could see what your dad did to him.

[229] But, you know, I've heard all sorts of stories about the way he choked him and all sorts of, you know, I don't know.

[230] True story.

[231] True story.

[232] I seen the video many times and I used to bring my friends over when I was a kid and show them the fights and everything.

[233] There's Angel's face up on that screen.

[234] So the story behind that is he came into the academy.

[235] and it's a long story but I'll kind of sum it up but basically he came into challenge my dad and my dad was like okay fine so he shows up at the academy and they kicked all the press out because he didn't want them to film in case whatever happened so he kicked all the press out and then just the guy anjo and his manager were in the in the academy my dad was having a class or my dad's black belt was having a class so there was a bunch of students there and yeah man just like everybody says my dad beat the shit out of this guy like this guy came in and my dad that instantly took him down, mounted and beat him up.

[236] And in the beginning of the fight, the guy churned his back to try to get put to sleep because he realized he was going to lose.

[237] So he gave him his back to get put sleep.

[238] And my dad was like, no, you're going to take more punishment.

[239] You're not going to get put to sleep so easily, you know?

[240] So he kept beating him bad.

[241] And it was like, it was hard to see, you know, even as a kid, and he broke his nose.

[242] You can hear his nose break.

[243] And it's a pretty big beating.

[244] And then after he fought, put him to sleep, he called the press and the press came in and took pictures and everything, Anja went back to Japan saying that he got jumped by the academy that we all jumped him.

[245] And then my dad had filmed it, brought the video to Japan, was like, look, this is the fight, showed all the press.

[246] And they were like, oh, yeah, they all, like, you know, thought it was very bad that he had lied and said that he got jumped in front of TV.

[247] So anyways, yeah, that fight is true.

[248] And why doesn't he put that online?

[249] I don't know.

[250] That's a good question.

[251] I think he just, because, it's martial arts history yeah i'll talk to them about it please put it on itunes you probably make a hundred grand you know sell that thing on iTunes for a buck yeah and you'd probably make a hundred thousand dollars easy yeah easy i think so i mean maybe there's something i'll promote it let me know man let me know what it's up i'll put it on twitter i'll put it on the podcast i'll let people know i'd pay a buck to watch that all right i'll pay 20 bucks to watch that shit that to me that's like one of the great challenge matches in martial arts history I mean, there's your dad versus Hugo Duarte on the beach in Rio.

[252] There's like a few of those that you can see.

[253] You know, there's a few of those, which is fucking crazy.

[254] I mean, they were duking it out on the beach, you know, in the sand, you know.

[255] Yeah, it's pretty wild.

[256] You can see that.

[257] But that wasn't the prolonged beating.

[258] You know, he let him up after he kicked his ass.

[259] I think my dad, because there were so many videos of everybody fighting the Gracie inaction videos had came out, all these videos were out.

[260] I think my dad just wanted to keep something for himself and wanted to have some kind of power because everybody had taken all the footage and everything was used in whichever way.

[261] You know, my dad probably never got paid a cent for the Gracian action videos or anything.

[262] So I think he was just wanted to keep something that he had power and it was good.

[263] You know, at this moment, he has, you know, value to that.

[264] Yeah, and more value in here, probably.

[265] More than $1 .99.

[266] 50 bucks.

[267] there was also from the outside there was always the talk was always especially because you know I've been working for the UFC since 97 so the people that I was working with like Campbell McLaren and all those guys they had been there from UFC 1 and they were you know they said that the reason why your uncle didn't put your brother in or didn't put your father in instead put hoist in that the reason why he did that was because he couldn't control Hickson that Hickson was just, you know, he was the best of the family.

[268] Everybody knew he was the best of the family, but that Horyon knew that if he put Hickson in, Hickson wasn't going to, you know, Hickson was going to do whatever he wanted to.

[269] He wasn't going to listen to him, and he wouldn't be able to control him the way he possibly controlled everybody else.

[270] Is there any, is it true to that, or what is it?

[271] So there's a lot of different things that happen in that's kind of time and error, you know.

[272] one reason why Hoyst fought in the UFC and not my dad because my dad was the best you know my dad would tap out hoist with one hand in his belt before his fight so there was no doubt of that one excuse I think was that horian looked or hoist looked you know more frail he looked like a more of a normal guy so they wanted to make him they wanted that you know to be able to prove the jih Tjitsu is better but ultimately I don't know if that's true or not and I don't know the exact reason But basically before that situation, Horian and my dad had a, had a, they kind of started to separate.

[273] They kind of started, you know, to go their own ways.

[274] And I think in that situation, again, I don't know 100%, but that's what I kind of thing happened.

[275] And I'm sure Horian felt more control over, over, over, over hoists than he did over my father.

[276] My dad was kind of already starting to find his own way and do his own thing.

[277] And, yeah, I don't know.

[278] I don't know too much about it because we never really talk about that far back.

[279] But I think I have talked to my dad about it, but I forget because that's not really that important these days for me. Well, you know, Horian gets a lot of, whoops, Horian gets a lot of grief.

[280] But, I mean, he was such a great promoter of Jiu -Jitsu.

[281] And if it wasn't for him doing that, it wasn't for him putting on those Gracie inaction videos and promoting them and promoting Jiu -Jitsu and promoting Gracie Jiu -Jitsu, it would have not probably...

[282] Horian has a huge part of what Jiu -Jitsu and what MMA is today at.

[283] He definitely made his value huge, you know, because not only did he create the UFC, but he, you know, came to America.

[284] He spread it.

[285] He was the one doing all the challenges and doing everything.

[286] So he was the reason, really.

[287] And my dad was just the soldier, was the guy the one representing and ready to do what he had to do.

[288] And, you know, it's like Carlos and Elio, Alu was the representative and Carlos was the guy who kind of took care of the academy and was the theory behind the diets and the theory behind the names and the have this stuff.

[289] So I think neither one of them I think they're both responsible for the movement.

[290] And yeah, I think it was a great thing.

[291] Horian, he did, like even his academy, you look at his academy day, it's like a museum, you know, he has, it's like a five -star hotel with 20 shower head.

[292] Look at my academy, it's nothing like that.

[293] You know, my academy is, it has some pictures and stuff, but it's not focused on that.

[294] My focusing is on the match who will be trained what I teach.

[295] I'm not focused on promoting and being able to sell Jiu -Jitsu and being able to expand wide the graces.

[296] You know, like for me, you come and you're going to be able, you're going to come to me and train with me if you know and you want to.

[297] And Horian was he did a great job in expanding and showing the world in your face.

[298] Like, here, look, this is what happens when this happens.

[299] And this is, so he was a great tool for the family.

[300] and a great, you know, he made it happen, you know, he created it a lot.

[301] Yeah, all of us fans of Jiu -Jitsu, oh, Hory and Gracie, and huge debt of gratitude, without a doubt.

[302] And also because he produced his sons that are also great promoters of Jiu -Jitsu.

[303] The Gracie breakdowns are one of my favorite things about after submissions.

[304] After there's a submission in the UFC, Hennar and Huron will get together and discuss with great technical experts.

[305] All the various aspects are where someone went wrong, where things went right, what was the proper adjustment, what they did to get out of a bad situation, really very, very educational.

[306] And, you know, if you watch that show UFC Ultimate Insider, it's on UFC Ultimate Insider, it's so great because, first of all, Hannah is so good at explaining these things.

[307] He's so articulate and so charismatic when it comes to these breakdowns of positions.

[308] there's so much enthusiasm you know you watch these guys talk about these things and it makes you want to train I mean it really does it's it's really good stuff and it just shows how much is going on with jujitsu for folks who don't know there's so much going on you know for people who don't know they're looking and they think oh this guy's trying to choke that guy and he's trying to stop it but it's all about the positions and the intricate details of leverage and movement and these guys do a real good job breaking that down.

[309] Yeah, they do do a great job breaking it down.

[310] And personally, for me, I never been one to teach online or through magazines or through stuff.

[311] I think, I believe that Jiu -Jitsu is a lot more about feel.

[312] And I don't, I kind of don't do that.

[313] I kind of disagree with myself teaching online or through videos and all that stuff.

[314] I kind of, I want to be able to feel and look somebody in the eyes if I'm going to teach him Jiu -Jitsu.

[315] And so, yeah, that's my philosophy behind that.

[316] But, you know, they're doing a great job of spreading it to all those people who can't get to them.

[317] And they do what they do.

[318] I'm not really too in control of what they do or how they do it.

[319] But I know for myself, I kind of don't do that.

[320] And I kind of stick to, you know, my academy and where I teach and I focus on that kind of stuff.

[321] Right.

[322] What I'm just talking about is there are explanations of J -J -J -J -J -ZU in MMA.

[323] Great explainators.

[324] You know, those guys, they...

[325] They explain to the T. It's one of the more difficult aspects of doing commentary is explaining not just recognizing positions and what's going to happen, but explaining to people's positions and explaining where the defense is, where the offense is, and doing it all in real time while mad scrambles are going on and trying to like, you know what arms in jeopardy.

[326] Is that the left arm or does the left arm?

[327] You've got to process all this stuff in your head.

[328] Does he have his hand?

[329] Is his hands locked?

[330] I can't see.

[331] And try to put it all into together.

[332] and then explain it to the layman to explain it to the person who doesn't train at home where it's just a mass of bodies you know that's why i just focused on competing and training that's better for me competing training and teaching yeah well i like that philosophy of looking someone in the eye and and training them because there there is that aspect of if you put a video out there you don't know who's learning your shit you know yeah of course it's very personal right jiu -jitsu it's very personal i think so too you know and and while i'm still competing The last thing I want is my enemies to be able to see what I do and see how I do things.

[333] So, yeah, there's no way I would do that.

[334] One of the interesting aspects about you and your jiu -jitsu career, too, is that there's a lot of variation in jiu -jitsu and jiu -jitsu styles.

[335] There's a lot of new stuff that's come along, a lot of new techniques, a lot of new strategies.

[336] But your attacks and your jiu -jitsu is very much like your fathers.

[337] It's very much traditional jiu -jitsu.

[338] You know, and there was a time when Vinnie Magales was on the Ultimate Fighter with Minotaro Nogera.

[339] And he was talking about Minotaro Nogara's Jiu -Jitsu, and he said it's very basic, very basic Jiu -Jitsu.

[340] Minotro got really mad at him.

[341] But he said it didn't mean it in a bad way.

[342] What he meant by, it's the basics, but honed to a laser -sharp edge.

[343] Like, there's nothing wrong with the basics.

[344] They're the foundation of Jiu -Jitsu.

[345] And when I watch you compete, you're using the real traditional techniques of jiu -jitsu.

[346] There's nothing like tricky that people haven't seen before.

[347] It's just jiu -jitsu that's done to perfection.

[348] Yeah, I think that the tricks, they work sometimes, and they work if it's a good moment, you know, like these new things that happen and these new ways to defeat your opponent.

[349] So I'm always looking for a situation that's going to work all the time.

[350] So these tricks, the good positions or stuff, they demand a lot out of you.

[351] And they only work if that situation happens.

[352] So I'm not concerned with trapping myself into a position that's good for me because I count on not being in good positions.

[353] I count on being in a bad position.

[354] I count on being in all the positions.

[355] So for me, I'm leaving my training sessions open to.

[356] to what may happen.

[357] And I don't like try to get to a certain position and then begin my training.

[358] That's what I feel like happens most of the time in jih Tzu these days is you want to get to this grip and this sleeve grip.

[359] And then from here, you're going to start training.

[360] So to get to that position where you have your special grips and everything, it takes a lot of energy and it takes a lot of strength.

[361] And I kind of base my jihitsu on leverage and technique so that it'll work when I'm fresh, when I'm tired, if I'm fighting a guy who's bigger than me. It doesn't depend on physical strength.

[362] So that's where kind of my dad kind of forced me because I didn't always think like this.

[363] And he kind of giving me not only the technique and the leverage, but showing me that it's possible, proving to me firsthand that it's possible for you to beat your opponents with leverage to not use strength.

[364] So my dad, you know, been promoting this like little mini warrior in my mind for a long time of how to be not only mentally, but physically and training -wise and spiritually and it's been it's all helped me and he's a great huge part of of my success one of the things that i took from the conversation with your dad we was talking about the various aspects of jiu -jitsu but um he was saying that first and foremost one of the most important weapons that he has is his defense that he's always safe he said in any position i'm always safe yeah he doesn't you know he's that that he concentrates on that And then the other thing was that when he moved from one position, I'll never forget this conversation.

[365] He goes, we all start at point zero.

[366] And he goes, from zero in the neutral point, I moved to one.

[367] And when I get to one, I'm not going back to zero.

[368] And that what he sounds like?

[369] Yeah, he's a very interesting person, you know.

[370] But it's true if you watch his fights.

[371] He rarely loses his position.

[372] There's no sloppy scrambles.

[373] You know, it's one of the things that I criticize people sometimes about in MMA.

[374] Like, guys leave too much space.

[375] They go for things in a way that they're not in control of the position.

[376] And he never did that.

[377] You know, when he would mount a guy, that motherfucker would stay mounted.

[378] You know, when he mounted a guy, it was just a matter of time before he got an arm bar or whatever he got for you.

[379] Yeah, it's pretty cool to see that the, I guess, like, everything in life, everything goes back to the basics.

[380] And I didn't, like, plan to have a certain type of style.

[381] I didn't like, oh, I'm going to just try to train this style or just submissions only.

[382] no i didn't plan that i'm planning and it's not like oh i'm going to start a fight and i'm just going to go for an arm locker i'm going to go for a crazy submission from nowhere it's not like that either you're not going to get that but my training sessions are to like you're my dad says to get to the next better position to get to the next better position to get to the submission so i'm never stopping my mind i've never stopping my training i don't stop in a place and be like okay i'm going to breathe here for a second no i don't do that i kind of always am looking for the next to get to the finish line and that's created a very aggressive style because i'm always looking for the next place to be and it's not necessarily like oh i just go for submissions from anywhere no i'm going for sometimes it may be to pass the guard or maybe to do to get his leg off my hip or whatever it is that may happen so it's not like i'm just thinking about submissions or i'm not thinking about doing crazy tricky stuff it's just that those stuff may not fall in to what I'm mentally trying to do.

[383] Your objective.

[384] My objective.

[385] And I think that's the biggest thing.

[386] I don't think too much about it.

[387] I just think about how am I going to get to a next better place.

[388] How am I going to put him here?

[389] So it just comes kind of naturally.

[390] At this point, I can't even not train that way.

[391] If I try to train any different way, my jihitsu sucks.

[392] So I'm glad.

[393] I'm very grateful that it's become like this.

[394] And I have this type of style.

[395] And I've gotten as good as I. got with the basics and with the tools that I had so I'm super stoked that became an issue in Abu Dhabi with a lot of wrestlers that wrestlers would take guys down and just hold them in positions and not go for submissions just try to go for points and you know and people get furious they'd be like well this isn't jujitsu but some people felt like the only way to compete with these guys is to do what they're doing is to fight smart the only way you can win is to to fight on points would you rather lose on points than win by holding a guy down yeah i have lost like that you know doesn't bother it fights it does i mean you don't know and you show me a good loser i'll show you a loser but you know yeah i rather lose on points with keeping my mentality always with the objective to get into a better place then to stop my game and try to find out how i'm going to to win this match while using the time on my side.

[396] So I have fought matches where I lost when I could have won.

[397] I was winning on points and then I went for something or I tried to advance the position and I lost it and then do, no, no, then whatever, the guy swept me and then I lost because the time ran out.

[398] So I have lost matches like that and it served as a good learning experience and everything.

[399] And, you know, yeah, I'd rather lose on points than to sit there and stop the game and wait for the time to run out because I don't.

[400] know if I would feel like shit you know I feel like deep inside me I have a thing that I feel like really bad if I don't try to go for the next position I feel guilty almost so you're like my grandfather's like from heaven look down I'm angry at you so you're your your jiu -jitsu and your your path is clearly a work in progress and even though you've achieved the great heights of being an Abu Dhabi world champion while you're training and fighting you're always competing with that very specific mindset so any setbacks are just going to be educational experiences you learn from those setbacks and then next time you're even greater which is why you came in was it second place in 2011 third place 2011 then came back and fucking dominated in 2013 that was a big leap man yeah i was a good one it was good i think i was really honestly i think i was ready for it and maybe if i would have won in 2011 it wouldn't have been the same or if i wasn't in 2009 who knows what would happen but you know I feel like now I'm ready I don't make more excuses about anything and if I don't win it's my fault if I if the guy was good enough to stall me out he was good enough to stall me out so I have to come up with something to to be able to be better than he is so I don't really take it and criticize him anymore if the guy just stalls on me I expect that the guys are not going to want to fight me and that they're going to want to stall and we get some points and feel good I expect that and I train that situation and I and I'm ready for that and so far so good you know i've been on a good good run lately have you ever seen the video where eddie bravo and i were talking about your match your dad was great for folks who don't know in the finals the dude was trying to stall crone out and hickson starts making chicken noises he's he's going pop pop pop pop puck and for a jiu jitsu guy i mean you want to talk about the ultimate mind fuck you're not just fighting against the son of the greatest ever, but the greatest ever is making chicken noises at you.

[401] Yeah, that was fucked up because...

[402] Because it started...

[403] When he did that, I was like, man, now I can't let this get to me, too, you know?

[404] Because my dad is over here, like, of course, I have to kind of try to keep...

[405] In the final match, I fought a guy who I had beaten many times before.

[406] So I knew that I could win.

[407] but if I were to start letting myself believe that I was going to win oh I'm going to win because I had already won it was going to completely mess up my mind so I went into the fight like it was the most difficult fight of my life and when my dad started to get front I knew he was going to back away I knew he was going to stall me out and it was not getting to me I was just like trying to do what I could do I'm not going to go crazy because he's not wanting to fight me I was expecting that the refs were going to warn him and take way points and I was going to let that happen and yeah when my dad was like when he did that I was like I was like man I kid Crohn don't let it get it to you don't let that shit get to you man don't think don't let he you have to make it so that me so you and your dad are fighting together not against each other I didn't want to let what he said like affect my train and thought put more pressure on me to have to do something so I kind of kept my cool and thank God like shortly after that he got a point taken away for stalling and then he went for the takedown and i got him in a good guillotine so it all worked out as well and that victory right there right there is like the happiest moment of my life right there was like the greatest feeling ever and i think my dad's still still so happy i mean i haven't seen my dad this hat everybody comes up and talks to me he's like your dad hasn't been this happy in so long and to see him so proud and so so stoked you know to finally achieve that number one place is a it's a good thing it was such a beautiful poet moment too when the guy shoots for the takedown you immediately lock it up like this is why this guy was stalling in the first place right into the jaws of death bam you locked that thing on perfect too that was beautiful i mean he tapped out within like a couple of seconds it was over yeah when he went for like i mean i i have i'm dangerous from a lot of different places you know but when he went for my legs i was like thank you buddy i was like dude this is great christmas present like boom everything fits so good and and uh it was a good good i mean it was a great showing and and that success of that competition kind of just came from a lot of i trained my ass off like sacrifice everything and you know in life that's what you've got to do when you want something you know whether whatever field it is you have to kind of really see what you want and and i saw my potential and i used it and i kind of you know anybody who saw me train saw how hard i trained for that fight I was ready to win.

[408] Yeah, you want to see something crazy.

[409] You pull up Crone Gracie Ninja Training.

[410] It's some bars in Santa Monica.

[411] I saw this the other day.

[412] Somebody put it on my message board on the thread of this particular podcast when the podcast was announced.

[413] Do you do this often?

[414] This is this wild video of you climbing up on these bars in Santa Monica.

[415] You climb to the top and then you're swinging.

[416] Here's a video.

[417] How often do you do this?

[418] I mean, I live in Santa Monica, so I go there all the time, and I kind of always do just, like, some workouts, and I like to be at the beach and in the ocean.

[419] But this is just like a joke, you know, like, it's just kind of a little trick, you know.

[420] Yeah, well, this little trick, he's jumping nine feet from one bar to the neck, swinging, and then catching with his arms like a monkey.

[421] I mean, this is some wild shit, dude.

[422] It's just some chimpanzee shit.

[423] That day, Nate was the one filming that, and he was super stoked on it.

[424] How often do you do that?

[425] I go down to the bars at least like once or twice a week just to kind of, you know, I do the ropes and I climb the ropes from my forearms and I do some pull -ups and stuff.

[426] But, you know, that's never like the biggest part of my training.

[427] It's never the most important thing.

[428] It's always come secondary to training jitsu and my specific stuff I got going on.

[429] But when you train all day, every day, you've got to find ways to keep yourself entertained and keep yourself enjoying what you're doing.

[430] And I hate being in a gym.

[431] I hate being in a gym.

[432] A weightlifting gym, you mean?

[433] weightlifting gym and i hate being in there like working out and so if i'm going to go on a bike ride i'll go outside if i'm going to run i'll go outside i like to feel the fresh air and kind of enjoy myself while i'm in this kind of hell that i live in this kind of hell perpetual training you mean yeah how much um physical training do you do besides the jiu jitsu i do a lot of jiu jitsu and i do a lot of everything i run i bike i swim i i i do you know and when you do it like what a the objectives like when you when you do you're running are you monitoring your heart rate are you doing sprints you're doing tabata intervals like what do you how do you every i do all the different types you know sometimes i do just a long distance run where i'll run an hour and 10 or an hour 20 minutes straight and then the goal be for that would be endurance and then i'll do some days where i'll just do sprints upstairs or some days i'll just do a bike long bike rides or you know all all those things that kind of just some days it's more explosive and some days it's more long distance and i just use it as a tool like as an addition to all the things i do and i felt like since i really started to put my energy into other things it's made my jihitsu better because the more in life when you sacrifice in one direction no matter what it is it gives it makes you better i don't know how i don't know what it's like something with the universe where you know even if you say oh i'm going to wake up at six in the morning to go do 20 push -ups and then go back to sleep, that is going to make you better at what you do because you are going to start to create this energy to achieve your goals.

[434] So once I started to really dedicate myself, not only with Jiu -Jitsu, but with breathing and physical strength and technical strength and mental strength and all these different ways that I can build myself as the best I can be, it really went to show, you know.

[435] It really made a big improvement since that moment.

[436] Do you find that the physical, training helps prevent injuries do you find yeah i do i think it's important i think physical training should be done at a right time because if you get a white belt and you start telling him all right you got to be physically strong and you tell them to start working out and running and then he's going to create his training is going to be based on his physical strength so my advice is the physical strength is to add to your technical ability it's not to take away from your technical ability and make you rely on your strength and make you rely on your physical attributes.

[437] So I always kind of don't push for guys in my academy to work out until they reach a brown or black belt level.

[438] Then they can start adding to their technique because if you get too strong, I've seen it happen many times where guys will take steroids and then they'll get so strong and they'll lose their technique.

[439] So I never wanted that to happen to me. I knew that the strength was always going to be there if I worked on it.

[440] So I think it's important for you to build your technique and then secondary, you know, your strength can keep your technique going because, of course, if you don't have any physical strength, your technique will fade, you know, so you got to have enough strength to keep it to keep it going.

[441] Do you have a trainer that helps you with your physical strength workouts or do you just?

[442] Nope, I got myself.

[443] That's it.

[444] That's who I count on.

[445] So it's just all that you've learned over all your years of martial arts.

[446] Yeah, and like I said, you know, like it.

[447] It took, you know, when you're training for fights and when you're getting ready, my dad left to Brazil when I was 18, so I didn't have a coach.

[448] I didn't have nobody.

[449] My dad was in another country.

[450] I didn't have a coach.

[451] I didn't have a strength trainer.

[452] I didn't have nobody to give me any kind of advice.

[453] So for a long time, I was kind of like, oh, man, this sucks.

[454] Like, fuck, everybody should be helping me. My dad should be helping me. I should have a trainer.

[455] I should have fucking somebody, you know, writing my stuff down and I should have all this stuff.

[456] And, you know, I should be sponsored by Nike.

[457] And I should have, you know, like all these things that, like, I compared myself to Kobe, Ryan.

[458] But as you get better, you realize that stuff's not going to happen.

[459] And I kind of got to a point where I kind of stopped making excuses.

[460] And I kind of started to blame myself for my unsecure.

[461] not blaming other reasons not blame him because I didn't have this or because I didn't have this or because my dad wasn't here so I grateful for my dad taught me as much as he can for as much as he did and got to a certain point where I stopped blaming I stopped blaming anybody for anything and I kind of just put all it everything into my hand so that my what I do now and how my schedule is now as a result of a lot of years of being on my own and being of course I've had help here and there but nobody fully embraced being my help So, of course, I pick from the help from I can get from wherever I can get.

[462] Oh, this guy just taught me this one thing.

[463] I'll do it.

[464] So I kind of go around and using my experience to make the best training that fits for me, and I've kind of finally got to that point where I know how to train hard, to where I don't overtrain, to where I know I'm in shape, to where I know mental, all that stuff is kind of starting to really combine well based on what I feel and based on how I have lived my life and how I've competed and how I've put my body, and stress, so I'm able to kind of get a good understanding of where I'm at.

[465] When your dad went to Brazil, was he teaching in Brazil?

[466] No. My parents got split up, and then my dad went to Brazil to go recharge his battery.

[467] Just to hang out?

[468] Yeah, to go.

[469] He just, his analogy is, his explanation is, you know, you put a coconut tree in America.

[470] It doesn't grow coconuts.

[471] You put a coconut tree in Brazil.

[472] Coconut's grow.

[473] I cannot explain why.

[474] So he wanted to just go make some coconuts.

[475] Yeah.

[476] So I think he just wanted to feel good and kind of be his on his little retreat.

[477] And it worked well.

[478] And now he just moved back actually like a couple months ago.

[479] He's moved back here.

[480] And now he's kind of after eight years of living in Brazil, he's kind of got more motivation to be here in America and be a part of my life.

[481] And I mean, he's always been a part of my life.

[482] Just I just don't.

[483] It's not like my dad didn't help me, but he helped me up until I was like 18, gave me everything he could, and then he'd let me be my own man. You know, he let me do everything on my own, make my own decisions.

[484] If I wanted to do this, I could do it, if I wanted to do that, if I wanted to wake up at 3 o 'clock in the afternoon.

[485] I was my own man and had the own freedom to do everything.

[486] So he gave me the option to do whatever I wanted, and thank God I was able to really embrace that and use it to my benefit and be able to do what I, did with that kind of on my own you know does your dad still train um my dad teaches um he doesn't train so much like where he he actually like goes and tries to get better he's he's he's kind of physically can't do it because he's got like eight hernias and his back he looks like a you know he's physically he's physically burned out you know you you you train at the highest level for your whole life with no when you say hernias you mean herniated discs yeah eight herniers herniated discs, so he's got just his back's a mess.

[487] Oh yeah, his doctor said he shouldn't be walking, but he walks.

[488] So he can't train as much, but he does put a gie on and he'll show him move here and there and he'll do what he has to do.

[489] And I think he's happy with that.

[490] I think now he's gotten to a place where he is okay with being retired.

[491] And he's okay with not being the front line.

[492] and he's okay with being at this stage where he is, you know, he knew that the time that he had to be physically, it was up until this age.

[493] And, you know, I guess when you start to fall out of your physical shape, you want to fight it and you want to know, I can still do it.

[494] And I think now he's very happy being the icon that he is and being, you know, he helps me with what he can help.

[495] He trains with what he can do.

[496] And he's still the man, like when he comes with me with theories and training stuff, I mean, man, it's like nobody else has the mind that he has.

[497] Even if you put his brain on anybody's body, they will be a champion for sure because he has a old, he has like a very great sense of how to adapt to anything.

[498] So sometimes I'll come up with a move or I'll be like, dad, this has been giving me problems.

[499] And even if him not training for 10 years, he'll still feel how to defend it or feel how to deal with that or he'll have a great understanding of how to be.

[500] So I think he's just better now, this time of his life, he's incorporating different things.

[501] He's not focused on training hard.

[502] That time for him is past.

[503] The time for him to fight his past.

[504] Now it's time for him to watch Mephy.

[505] Now it's time for him to watch himself, you know, teach or watch him be an icon, you know, start, you know.

[506] What does he do for exercise these days?

[507] Oh, he serves and he does exercise.

[508] He'll do his little workouts and stuff.

[509] And he's still very active, but he's just not going to go and train rounds after rounds.

[510] Right, right.

[511] But he's definitely a very healthy and physical person.

[512] And, I mean, if I have eight hernia discs by his age and I'm able to do what he did, I'll take that.

[513] No problem.

[514] I'll take the eight hernias to being the best in the world any day of the week.

[515] Well, they can do a lot for those things now.

[516] Yeah.

[517] I mean, he's going to doctors.

[518] and if you have any advice, he definitely like...

[519] Yeah, I certainly do.

[520] The regenerine that I had done was because of a bulging disc and made a huge impact on me. And it's also the same thing that a lot of football players have done like Peyton Manning had done on his neck and he had two operations on his neck and was ready to retire, went to Germany, had the blood -spending procedure done and now was playing better football than ever.

[521] Yeah, that's great.

[522] Massive anti -inflammatory properties of it.

[523] And the good thing about it is it's using your own blood.

[524] So it's not like, you're introducing a steroid or any unnatural substance into your body that's going to cause it an adverse side effects it's actually actually your own blood it's amazing to see with his body how it's been how how well he lives and how he's happy to he says if i can surf and i can do the things if i can train once a week and do the little move here i'm okay with that you know like so i don't know how far he's trying to step into actually being feeling like 20 years old again but I'm sure he'd be interested to hear what you have to say.

[525] Well, just pain relief and just the replenishing of his body's ability to move correctly.

[526] It would be a huge impact.

[527] I know a lot of guys that are getting towards his age, though, that have done Jiu -Jitsu for a long time, have similar issues.

[528] Ricardo Laboreo told me he has seven hernia discs.

[529] You know, and, you know, like you stand next to Ricardo, he's kind of like hunched over and leaned down.

[530] And when we were describing it, you know, he could see like he has like a wince in his face.

[531] thinking about the pain but still trains yeah still goes out there every now and then rolls and just loves it and can't help it yeah that's the problem jiu jitsu so fun it's too bad your body's not indestructible yeah it's too bad you can't tap out but your body's you know rubber indestructible they created it like that for a reason i bet yeah maybe or else my dad would still be mopping fools off i'd be like this is my time now come on stop give me a break What was the last time your dad Like really seriously rolled How long ago was it?

[532] I don't know All I know was the last time we seriously rolled I got fucked up This was bad Because I just got my black belt And I was like All right dad You know At this time he was still kind of not I mean he's had hernia disc for a long time He probably had a eight hernia disc When he was fighting Really?

[533] You know yeah He's probably had it for a long time It's not Just dealt with the pain Yeah he's dealt with pain his whole life and I don't know exactly what is what the exact he has or doesn't have but yeah when I was like 21 years old 19 I just got my black belt and I was like all right dad let's go since you're out of shape let's give me three minutes three minutes and we'll go as hard as we can for three minutes and let's see because after three minutes then of course I'm in better shape and you are not training so much so I don't want that to be an issue and when we trained man he got me in like a minute and a half and I was so pissed got me with a footlock and I was like yeah all right he's still the man that was the last time we really rolled so yeah I mean he's a he's a very I mean he's just the real samurai I mean there's no way to put it he's just all around it's not an act you know he's definitely in his bones he's ready to die even if the day if something happened he'd be ready to die for what he believes in and I think that's why I believe in what he says and I believe in what I do and why I do what I do with so much passion.

[534] Yeah, he's the real deal.

[535] And for folks who you want to get a sense of it, even if you're not a martial artist, the movie choke, go watch the movie choke because that's, you know, Hickson when he was, I mean, essentially not quite his prime because he was in his late 30s at the time.

[536] It was probably, you know, it was better when he was even younger than that.

[537] But you get a chance to see the physical preparation when he's sitting up to his neck in an icy glacial river and meditating i mean fucking freezing cold water and it's just breathing and concentrating and you see hoiler gets in he dips his foot and he's like fuck this i'm out of here man everybody else is like touching the water going no this is crazy and your dad's in there up to his head like like it's nothing like he's in a jacuzzi so yeah i i'm that inspires me you know and i well i remember him getting out you know he's happy and praising and thank you my Lord, just loving it.

[538] You know, he embraces the challenge of it and embraces just the wildness of being in a glacier river in Japan and the whole deal, man. Yeah, he really does it.

[539] Now, you are starting to, you're doing a lot of training with, I know, Gilbert Melendez, a good friend of yours who thankfully just got re -signed to a new deal where he's going to compete against Anthony Pettis, who's the lightweight champion.

[540] they're going to fight after they coach the ultimate fighter together, which is a huge thing.

[541] And you're training with a lot of the others, Hoyler.

[542] He's said, fuck this.

[543] We get out of it.

[544] I've had enough.

[545] And for folks who don't know, Hoyler Gracie's one of the greatest submission artists of all time too and very, very successful in competition.

[546] So, you know, when you see the difference between how Hickson deals with it and how Hoyler deals with it, look, that's when you really get a sense of what a special person he is.

[547] And by the way, no one's telling him to do this.

[548] This is all his idea.

[549] And your mom's going, oh, fuck.

[550] Yeah, and my dad never had a coach either, you know.

[551] He never really had nobody there all the time, time.

[552] So that gave me more motivation, too.

[553] And also he gave him the confidence that he could let me be on my own.

[554] And I was still going to be all right if I was trying to be all right.

[555] Now, what I was going to say is you've done quite a bit of training with Nick and Nate Diaz and Ronda Rousey.

[556] Didn't you do some training with her as well?

[557] I've never trained with Rhonda, actually.

[558] I've trained with Nick and Nate a lot.

[559] Gilbert and Jake quite a lot you know so those guys are a big part of my training and I've helped them all out with fights and Rhonda trains with those guys on a fairly regular basis right she's trained with them a few times.

[560] She has I think she definitely was up there more before I think I don't know how much she goes up there now but are you planning on fighting in MMA now yeah yeah I am so I actually after the ADCC I kind of um kind of starting to focus more on MMA kind of my energy to be driven towards fighting professionally and in MMA and yeah that's that's where my energy is going these days and what motivates you to want to do that like I said before this has been my I knew I was going to get to this point when I was a little kid I never saw jiu -jitsu is my final mission and I was just waiting for a right time and reading for myself to be ready for whatever obstacles I can get to on this specific situation so now I feel mentally ready and now I feel the motivation and now if you would ask me when I was 20 years old if I was ready to fight me I wasn't you know mentally not physically not technically but just mentally ready to to do something like that so the last thing I wanted was to be traumatized and now I feel like no matter what happens I'm ready to to embrace whatever happens and I'm ready to to fight so negotiating seeing what the best situation for me to take advantage of this moment.

[561] How have you adjusted your training to prepare for mixed martial arts?

[562] Some minor adjustments, nothing too crazy, but I think, of course, there's different obstacles and different things that you've got to worry about when you're just dealing with Jiu -Jitsu and when you're just dealing with MMA.

[563] You know, of course, you can hit and stuff, but I think generally my fights, the way I fight is more of a fight, and I kind of, I'm not a sportist.

[564] I'm not trying to be sporty with my Jiu -Suz.

[565] So I don't think the transfer over will be that big of a jump as it could be for some other guys.

[566] People who are more points oriented.

[567] Yeah, people who are kind of they want to stay in their clums.

[568] I'm very comfortable in the storm.

[569] So I think that'll help me when I fight.

[570] That's one of the most important attitudes to have in life, is to embrace the storm.

[571] Be comfortable in the storm.

[572] Try to figure out how to make yourself uncomfortable all the time.

[573] Yeah.

[574] But don't avoid the storm.

[575] That's going to make you really, then you're going to see who you are when you can deal how you react in those situations.

[576] Absolutely.

[577] Especially if you embrace it.

[578] It becomes a part of who you are as a human being that you do that, that you take on those challenges.

[579] What about striking?

[580] What are you doing as far as striking?

[581] I'm working on striking a little bit here and there.

[582] You know, don't want to give up too much of my training.

[583] Oh, really?

[584] But, yeah, I mean, I think Jiu -Jitsu has striking, you know.

[585] There is, it's just, Jiu -Jitsu strikes when it's beneficial for you.

[586] It doesn't teach you to sit there in the pocket and just bang out with anybody.

[587] But if striking is definitely a part of Jiu -Jitsu and I think it's going to be interesting to see what I can do.

[588] You know, I'm curious and I want to see what happens, you know.

[589] So just like anybody else, I'm very curious to see how my jiu -jitsu is going to play in fighting and how what's going to happen, is is jih Tjitsu going to be enough?

[590] Or is he going to have to do this certain type of training?

[591] So I think my training with Nick, Nate, and Jake and Gilbert is sufficient to really put me in wherever I want to be.

[592] Now, your uncle, Hoyce has said recently, you know, that you don't need anything other than jihitsu.

[593] Is it all these different people that they train wrestling and all these different aspects of striking that you really don't need it?

[594] just train jiu -jitsu.

[595] Do you agree with that, or do you think that in modern mixed martial arts, it is important that you cross -trained.

[596] It is important that you prepare for a full mixed martial arts competition.

[597] Or do you think that the highest level of jiu -jitsu is still sufficient?

[598] I think jiu -jitsu is sufficient.

[599] I think jiu -suitous is sufficient to be the best martial arts.

[600] I just think that the rules make it so that it's not necessarily possible.

[601] So the rounds, the gloves, the rules, you know, Those things all change the sport, and it changes the situation.

[602] Stand -ups?

[603] Yeah, like, if you have no gloves, nobody's going to be throwing those punches that guys throw these days.

[604] So you're going to break your hand.

[605] First punch you throw, the guy ducks his head, you're going to break your hand.

[606] So I think that all those things change it.

[607] And when it changes, you have to be ready to adapt to what changes.

[608] Personally, if you put two guys in a cage and jit -sue is enough.

[609] But when you put in the gloves and you put the time and you put the round, And you put the, you know, all these things, the steroids.

[610] So it changes the situation.

[611] And, you know, guys are more willing to just throw the hardest punches and knock you out because they know that the round is going to end because they know that their hand is not necessarily going to break.

[612] So if you ask me what's the best martial arts, I think judicious, of course, if you ask me, what is Jiu -Jitsu enough?

[613] Yes, it just depends on the rules.

[614] If you tell me, okay, it's a two -minute round and the guy is.

[615] going to stand you up or do that you know of course then you have to learn how to box you have to learn how to do this and personally um deflection of punches is always been a part of jihitsu be not necessarily being able to strike i don't know necessarily if i'm going to be knocking guys out but i'm going to be able to defend my goal and the jitsu goal in the principle is to be able to defend whatever the guy's going to do if the guy's going to punch you have to be able to defend the punch you have to be so I don't necessarily think that you have to be a great striker to win MMA and to be a champ but you have to be able to defend yourself you have to be able to know where the punch is coming from you have to be able to know what's going on you have to know about all this stuff it's not like oh guy trains sport jihitsu for 20 years and then he goes into a fight he's going to get he's going to get beat up you know so it depends how you train and what you're where he is and how well you adapt to whatever's going on in the fight your dad always said that that he doesn't doesn't train kickboxing to become a kickboxer.

[616] It trains it to know what they're doing.

[617] Yes, exactly.

[618] So I feel comfortable.

[619] So who are you talking to?

[620] Are you talking to organizations?

[621] Can you tell me?

[622] Yeah, I'm talking to, right now I'm negotiating with Japan.

[623] Nothing's for sure, but it's looking good.

[624] And trying to see if I can get a, there's an opportunity for me in Japan.

[625] What organizations are left in Japan right now?

[626] I can't really say too much right now, but basically it's, very shortly we'll know what's going on with that and uh well for folks who don't know your your dad was a huge star in japan yeah they had a comic book based on them i mean there's a lot of fanfare and publicity and they they embraced him especially when he won the japan valley tutos i mean your dad was an enormous star over there and i think that that makes sense that you would want to compete over there because they would be very interested to see yeah there's a lot of benefits for me starting off in Japan and you know the it's just a lot better for me at this moment in my career to to start off in Japan and to really build myself the best I can and I personally like fighting in front of Japanese culture because you know they're they're a little bit more martial artists they come from like a samurai background so they really care about what you are they really care about what you stand for they really care about if you sweep somebody in the middle of a tournament they're going to clap you know so personally for me i i appreciate that and i like that about um japan and um i think it's just a a time in my life and of course if japan were to ever like you know have a movement of of being able to bring mma back to japan i think a possibility would be with bringing me to it because that's going to it's going to replicate hey, what my dad did, you know, how he brought it to Japan.

[627] So I think it's, for me, in this situation, it's a great opportunity and I'm trying to go for that.

[628] Yeah, for people who don't know, your dad was the star of Pride 1.

[629] I mean, that's what got Pride kicked off.

[630] That was the big launching pad after he had won the Japan Valley Tuto.

[631] And then, of course, pride came close to, I mean, it was an enormous event in Japan.

[632] Like, they had put on 90 ,000 seat shows several times.

[633] Yeah, like 60 ,000 Tokyo Dome sold out, huge.

[634] And somehow another, it stopped.

[635] It's one of the great mysteries of martial arts.

[636] And I don't totally understand Japanese culture.

[637] I guess they get really into things sometimes, and then the things fade away.

[638] But when we were there and we did the UFC there a couple years ago, it was my first time in Japan, and I was amazed at the audiences.

[639] They were awesome.

[640] like when the fight's going on they're so polite and then when something happens like a transition or a sweep everybody applauds like it's like wow yeah there's like it's like it's like i really cool it's like i really appreciate how much they they they love the the technique and the martial arts aspect of it but as far as like a crazy crowd there's nothing like brazil there's nothing like brazil this last event um when mitchita fought musasi i watched it at home and uh when when bruce buffer says it's It's time.

[641] The whole audience does it with them.

[642] I mean, there's like 18 ,000 people.

[643] It's time.

[644] Yeah.

[645] No one cheers like a Brazilian crowd.

[646] No one cheers.

[647] And they're there at the very first fight.

[648] That place is packed.

[649] They're getting their money's worth.

[650] Yeah.

[651] And they're fucking fired up, man. We got there early and there was already just a giant line around the block to the arena.

[652] And then when we got in it, man, the energy in the air was, it was a huge.

[653] huge huge thing that was the last one that i was at in rio but um there's no crowds like brazilian crowds yeah japanese soccer they come from the soccer background so they're really into that and japanese crowds are just different in their own way completely different yeah yeah very very different from the brazilian crowds but different in their own unique way um so is there a timeline on when this is going to happen basically we're going to know very soon very very soon the next probably the next time I see you will be I'll have an answer and so I'm just waiting I don't want to give up a date or a time I don't want to put too much energy into that because I hope it happens so much that I don't want to like spoil anything so we'll see and it's going to happen very soon so I'll let you know I'll let you know don't worry if you able to do you watch the UFC this weekend I did not actually I missed it Damian Maya who's a very excellent alternative of jiu -jitsu fought Roy McDonald and got beat up what happened in the fight well Damien took him down the first round mounted him but he couldn't submit him and Rory defended got back up to his feet and then started kicking the shit out of it really and was Damien just trying to stand up with him yeah yeah well there you go I mean I like Damien Damien's a good guy you know and he's like I've always had respect for him we've always had a good relationship.

[654] And he's always been a representative of jujitsu in a great way.

[655] So I think the more he focuses on that and the more he tries to really use jujitsu, the better he's going to be because he's a specialist in jujitsu.

[656] He's not a specialist in striking.

[657] So it's tough to try to be an excellent person in a different sport.

[658] I think he should try to focus in on being the greatest jiu -jitsu fighter in an MMA.

[659] I think that'll be beneficial for him.

[660] Well, he was trying to do that.

[661] I mean, he was trying to take Roy down.

[662] But he couldn't take him down.

[663] He kept getting his takedown stuffed, and then he was forced to stand with him, and Rory kept kicking him.

[664] He was just kicking the shit out of him.

[665] That's why I'm curious, you know.

[666] I'm curious to see for myself how it is, you know, fighting with guys who don't want to go to the ground and see how I'm going to be able to deal with it.

[667] And I don't know.

[668] I have zero experience in MMA, so I'm curious.

[669] I'm curious to see what happens, and I'm curious to see how really difficult it could be and where my technology.

[670] Niki is going to play a role and how it's going to be because you never know and that's why I'm really open for the for the challenge and you know my my my my blessings for Damien hopefully he can find a great tactic to to beat his opponents and be guys who are trying to do that and do you look at him as sort of uh I mean he's a very high -level jiu -jitsu guy do you look at him as an example of what can be possible and not the pitfalls the possibilities yeah I mean I think if somebody can defend his takedowns or something, then there's definitely a technical reason why that's happening.

[671] And I think that, like, personally, I admire the guy.

[672] The guy's an exceptional athlete.

[673] He's a great fighter and everything.

[674] But I don't look up to his jiu -jitsu.

[675] I don't look up to anybody's jih Tzu that is fighting these days, you know?

[676] I don't, like, see anything that is exceptional.

[677] You know, I see guys that are good, tough, and guys who make it happen.

[678] but I'm impressed with my dad's jiu -jitsu that's where I feel like I'm going to try to replicate so as much as I'm a fan and I'm admired and all these guys are they made they got to where they got with the tools that they were given you know we are all given certain amount of tools and how will you use them so I can't take anything away from the guys who got far with the jihitsu or with the striking or with whatever but yeah it's definitely like you're going to be able to see you know who do you think is the best representative of jiu jitsu right now in mixed martial arts uh i mean there's a lot of a lot of good guys you know there's you know the classics you know like damien's very good you know jacques very good those guys are guys who i've friends with you know guys who have been competing jitutes tournaments and sergio morise too his jiu jihitsu i mean he hasn't gotten to that level yet you know the level of opposition yet but his jiu jiu jitsu has been very effective in MMA.

[679] His submissions are, you know, excellent.

[680] I actually haven't seen him fight really in MMA, so I don't really know too much.

[681] But his jiu -jitsu in Jiu -Jitsu tournament is good.

[682] You know, he's a tough guy.

[683] He has a specific type of style.

[684] But again, I'm not impressed with his Jiu -Jitsu, you know.

[685] Like, I'm impressed with him as a whole.

[686] You know, he's like, wow, the guy can make it happen.

[687] He can defend well.

[688] He's an exceptional athlete.

[689] The guy is very strong, very explosive.

[690] but, you know, I don't see him as an exceptional jiu -tit -to fighter.

[691] What's missing?

[692] For him personally?

[693] Yeah.

[694] I mean, again, like, I don't...

[695] But when you say, I mean, you look at a guy who's like a high -level world champion caliber fighter, but you say you're not impressed with his jiu -jitsu.

[696] What is not impressive about it?

[697] I don't know, because I've never seen him fight in M .A., so I don't know what he's doing in M .M .A. But when I fight him, I fought him once.

[698] He beat my ass.

[699] And then I fought him the next time, and it was a very even match.

[700] I thought I won that match, and I felt like I got jipped, but...

[701] Did they give you him an advantage?

[702] They gave him an advantage of the last five seconds.

[703] Advantage is so squirily.

[704] For folks who don't know, there's weird scoring in Jiu -Jitsu.

[705] If Jiu -Jitsu is zero to zero, one guy can get what they call an advantage, and it's very subjective.

[706] And, you know, people, I've seen fucking bench -clearing brawls because of advantage scoring.

[707] What I feel about impressive jiu -jitsu is why am I so impressed with my dad's jit -too?

[708] It's because he outsmarts me. He technically beats me. If somebody is stronger than me and they pass my guard or they submit me, I am not impressed because of that.

[709] I think that the guy used his tools to beat me or did whatever.

[710] But that doesn't mean he's a better jiu -situ doesn't technically impress me. So it's very difficult to impress me. I come from my father.

[711] My dad has been technically outsmarting me for a long time.

[712] So it's hard for me to be impressed with jiu -tizu these days.

[713] And that's what I'm trying to do.

[714] I'm trying to do a jih Tjitsu that is technical.

[715] And it's way harder for you to technically outsmart somebody than for you to just, no, I'm going to get it and just take it.

[716] And the guy defends it.

[717] And then you just rip right through it.

[718] So it's a different approach to what I believe jiu -jitsu is about.

[719] And that's why I feel like I'm not impressed as much as other people, Wow, he got that arm bar, yeah.

[720] But he got that arm bar because he's much stronger than the guy.

[721] The guy has no defense.

[722] So I feel like it's a mind game, and however well you use your chest pieces, you know, that's what's going to make you the results.

[723] But I don't take anything away from Sergio Morais.

[724] He's a, you know, great fighter, and he's an exceptionally healthy, strong person.

[725] And he's able to use the tools, and he's able to use Jitsu for his benefit.

[726] That doesn't mean he's not good at Jiu -Jitsu or anything.

[727] That just means that if you speak specifically for jih Tjitsu, is he like using his strength or is he using his technical abilities to beat your opponent?

[728] And that's where I say that.

[729] That's why I say that.

[730] Mark Coleman once said to me, that was the match that I drawed with him.

[731] It was like 4 -4 and then I lost on an advantage at the last second.

[732] You were rocking the old -school samurai ponytail just like your dad.

[733] Old school.

[734] Try that out for a little bit.

[735] Nobody told me it was really gay, so I kept it going for a little bit.

[736] Well, your dad had that back in the day, man. That's a tribute.

[737] That's a tribute haircut.

[738] You get a pass.

[739] You get a gay pass.

[740] Well, then I realized it was really, so I kind of cut it.

[741] Did it get in the way?

[742] Yeah, I just got in the way, and it just kind of wasn't really my style.

[743] It was for a while.

[744] I did what I had to do with it, and then that was it.

[745] I was going to say that Mark Coleman once told me, strength is technique strength is a technique for some people and that's for some people everybody has their belief other people other jizu guys they're like you know if the move doesn't work then use more strength you know if you the moves don't work because you're not using enough strength so i'm i don't come from that theory i don't come from that belief and i come from a leverage and technique background so that's why i feel the way i feel it's not because i feel against anybody and i'm not trying to point fingers or try to say that that I'm better than anybody, nothing like that.

[746] I still have a lot to prove.

[747] But if you honestly ask me if I'm impressed with the Jiu -Jitsu, I come from, I'm Hicks and Son, you know, I come from the best.

[748] If I'm easily impressed, you know, that's not a good sign.

[749] Who impresses you in Jiu -Jitsu today?

[750] What really impresses me is guys who are smaller being able to really defeat bigger opponents.

[751] Like Marcella Garcia?

[752] Marcelo Garcia is a very, he's definitely a great fighter.

[753] You know, I fought him twice.

[754] and he's one guy who technically is great you know like i have nothing to say about his technical abilities he's he's technically in the game you know he's not overpower he's not using his physical attributes to beat his opponent so i'm impressed with that that's that's a great thing that he has and um yeah i mean the technical ability is is where i feel like is the line for for for greatness and and yeah marcella graccio he's he's great i i love i love fighting him him you know that's one guy who i would fight any day that that's like it's a great to be meshing with that kind of talent so um yeah he's a great example and and he fought guys were really big and all right there i almost got him marcella yeah i had him in a guillotine for for a good minute until my forearms cramped up but if if there was a professional avenue for jujitsu if jiu -jitsu was like golf or baseball or something like that it was on television all the time would you be motivated at all to enter into m -ma um yeah i think so too because i i think it's more of a real fight and i think it's more of a challenge and i like challenges and i like to to i like to challenge and i like to see what's going to happen and personally i think that jiu -jitsu takes away a little bit from the full fighting the full fighting because there's no punching because there's no punching and because there's other tools so the less rules you have the the more you can actually present yourself and use the inner stuff that you have within the fighting spirit and find out ways to stay safe and personally the jitsu most the jitsu these days are very boring matches and they're very you know point oriented and they they kind of, you know, it's not as interesting to watch because guys are not really, they're there for the win, for the point, and it's not motivating for me, you know, it's not motivating for me to compete in a fight like that.

[755] I'm motivated to embark on this new journey of MMA.

[756] I'm motivated to see what happens, to see how the fight goes, what I need to do with, what happens if this happens, and I think that's a great thing.

[757] Now, when you see guys like Jokorei who were great Jiu -Jitsu artists and now entering into MMA and just, you know, Jokoree is winning a lot of his fights with kickboxing.

[758] Yeah.

[759] And a lot of guys that he's fighting, he's not able to take down.

[760] So he's sort of forced to stay on his strike with them.

[761] Do you take away anything from that?

[762] Do you learn anything from that?

[763] Yeah, I'm trying to learn.

[764] I think Jokaray is great and I really like him a lot as a human being and as an athlete.

[765] And I've been his fan since he was before, you know, in Jiu -Jitsu.

[766] he was always a kind of a real cool guy to watch and he's a warrior you know that guy has a strong spirit and he's a very strong -hearted person so so whatever he does he's going to be good at and however he does it he's going to be he's going to make it happen and he georgia karat just used the tools that he was given to to get the best results that he can get i don't take anything away from him don't mean by taking anything away from him do you personally get something from watching him like did you learn something from his his approach yeah i mean personally i'm kind of trying to always analyze and more importantly i'm trying to see where i fit in on this you know i want to see if it's really if how how i'm going to deal with somebody who's not letting me take him down how am i going to get him down how am i going to find the way to win the fight so i think it's all in the air and we're going to see what happens and i can't wait to start to to test myself in these waters and get these challenges and find out ways to find out ways to win.

[767] Now, other than Gil and Jake, how many wrestlers are you working with?

[768] I mean, in my academy, there's always been great wrestlers and great judo guys and great everything.

[769] They all come in and out of my academy, so I've wrestled with the best wrestlers and I've wrestled with, you know, I've been in the mix with a lot of great athletes and, yeah, Yeah, I mean, they're a part of the training, you know.

[770] They come in, and when I go up to train with Nate or Gilbert, there's a lot of wrestlers.

[771] And I think that's just one more tool, one more training session, one different type of training.

[772] Sometimes you train just to not get taken down.

[773] Sometimes you train to take somebody down.

[774] Sometimes you just train jiu -suitous.

[775] Sometimes you just train defense.

[776] Sometimes you just train one position.

[777] So you try to build yourself as a complete as much as you can.

[778] And of course, my specialty will never be wrestling.

[779] my specialty will never be boxing or kickboxing it's never going to be my specialty so just like jacareh his specialty is not going to be stand -up he's great at stand -up he's knocking guys out he's doing great but that's not his specialty you ask him where he feels the best it's going to be jiu -jitsu so i feel like my best is always going to be jihitsu as much as i train the other stuff and as much as i feel comfortable in the other place i want to bring the fight to where i'm where i feel great that's why Anderson Civil was champion for so long was because he was able to keep the fight where he felt comfortable he was able to keep the fight on his feet and in that elusiveness he was able to win if he was like I don't care if I get taken down and let the guys mount and do this stuff and then didn't fight to get up then he would have lost a long time before but because he was so well at being able to stay in his where he's comfortable at and keep the fight where he wants to keep it at But he was an exceptional legend, you know, for so long.

[780] And, you know, that's something to admire.

[781] And I see guys, a lot of guys are just general.

[782] A lot of guys are just really good at everything.

[783] Nobody's a specialist in anything.

[784] And suffer some here and there.

[785] But generally, MMA is just, you're just good at everything.

[786] You're not specialized in something.

[787] So I think for me coming from a martial arts background, not coming from an MMA background, not coming from a, I didn't just, start doing this because I saw it on TV.

[788] I come from, you know, a tradition.

[789] And my tradition is jiu -jitsu.

[790] My tradition is technique and leverage.

[791] And that's what I base my whole life on.

[792] So if I'm going to fight, I'm going to use that to my benefit, you know.

[793] There's one pattern that we do see in MMA all the time is that when a guy gets truly excellent at any one aspect of fighting, that will always be that advantage when he gets into the octagon.

[794] that it always is a significant advantage over people that have never competed in that individual form.

[795] Like, for example, like if you take a guy, like Anderson Silva, is a total specialist, a stand -up striking specialist.

[796] I mean, his whole career is a stand -up striking specialist.

[797] In order for you to get that good as he was at striking.

[798] It's a whole lifetime.

[799] Yeah.

[800] Yeah.

[801] So that's, I don't got two lives.

[802] I only got one right now.

[803] I better do what I got going on.

[804] Where's your academy?

[805] Where do you teach?

[806] I teach in Culver City right next to Playa, Jefferson and Centinello.

[807] And it's called the Crone Gracie Academy?

[808] Now, do you find that teaching makes you better at Jiu -Jitsu?

[809] Yeah, I've been teaching since I was 15, so every day I teach, even until today, I still get better, and I've realized something that could be better, or realize how I can explain something better, or realize how I can see a different side.

[810] And teaching for me has definitely been a huge part of my growth in Jiu -Jitsu, and I see people.

[811] people who just train and don't teach, and I see a big difference in the people who do teach and how much more knowledgeable they are and how much better they can be from that.

[812] Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that teaching someone who doesn't know something forces you to think about almost every single aspect of it, including parts of it that you could sort of take for granted?

[813] And it seems to translate not just what you do to, but kind of anything that you teach people.

[814] Of course.

[815] Yeah, sometimes you do something naturally and it just feels right and then when somebody asks oh how'd you do that or how'd you get out then you have to like sit and you have to program your mind to do and know what you're doing instead of just reacting you know you have to know like oh this is i knew i did that and i know so i think it's teaching for me has been huge and i really really enjoy teaching much more now you know i really enjoy teaching I really enjoy making people better.

[816] I really enjoy, you know, as a teacher, I am able to see what a person needs and see where he's weak and try to make it better.

[817] Instead of coming with a class, like in my mind, oh, I'm going to just teach this class.

[818] I'm going to just teach this move.

[819] No, I'm looking specifically to see what this person is lacking in and how it's going to benefit.

[820] Some guys are too hyper.

[821] You have to calm down, breathe.

[822] Some guys are too slow.

[823] Wake up, buddy.

[824] Come on.

[825] Let's get it going.

[826] And, you know, so I think the good teacher is the one who kind of adapts to the needs of the student for the goal of being better.

[827] You know, I'm not necessarily trying to make you feel good.

[828] I'm not necessarily trying to make you believe something.

[829] I'm trying to make you better at Jiu -Jitsu.

[830] You have to get better.

[831] You have to be a little bit better every time you will leave me. You know, so I really believe that the more I teach, And especially for me, personally, because my dad left when I was 18.

[832] So I had all these students at the academy, you know.

[833] All these were all my training partners.

[834] So I had to teach these people to be better so that I could have good training.

[835] Because if I didn't have, if I just was there like, oh, yeah, just do that, move.

[836] Yeah, keep going.

[837] All right, guys.

[838] Keep going.

[839] Open training.

[840] All right.

[841] Then I would not have great training partners the way I do now.

[842] I have great training partners now because I was like, okay, how is this guy going to beat me?

[843] are dude when don't let me get to this position and i'm like very passionate on letting these guys get better to tell him i tell him man dude the way you're going to beat me is you do like this don't and i'm making these guys better to try to beat me so that one they stay motivated and two so they give me great training because i can train now in my academy for for a fight i don't need to go to train with these other because i have guys who know exactly what i do and i tell them exactly how to defend it and i'm working that and the better i make them the best i make them the better they're going to make me so so you were teaching at your dad's academy when you were 18 you were basically 15 15 I started teaching but I wasn't running the academy I wasn't teaching the adult classes at 16 I taught like once a week 17 I started teaching a couple more times a week by 18 I was fully teaching everything and running the whole academy wow so that's what you've been doing essentially for a living yeah wow that's crazy so for the past seven years that's been what you do Well, since I was 18, I've been, since I was 15, I've been, all the money I make is from Jitsu, so yeah.

[844] Wow, that's incredible.

[845] So now, when you teach, how many days a week are you teaching?

[846] I teach once a day.

[847] Once a day.

[848] Do you have daytime classes that someone else teaches?

[849] Yeah, I teach once a day, and then some days I teach twice, and then some days I train the afternoon class.

[850] And so I kind of scatter it out to where I can get to every week.

[851] You know, I'll teach two days in the afternoon, and then I'll teach every night.

[852] And then, so someday, on Tuesdays, I teach twice a day, but, but yeah, I teach a lot.

[853] And I also teach enough to where I don't overteach and get kind of, because I've taught before where I teach every class.

[854] And that's training, you know, you give a lot of your energy, you teach, you know, you give, give, and then you have nothing for yourself.

[855] So I've found my kind of remedy of how much I can teach to where I still feel good about myself and still, have enough to do the things I need to do.

[856] So I teach, you know, Monday to Thursday nights and then I teach Tuesday and Friday mornings.

[857] And then Saturday is open training.

[858] And so I kind of give myself a time to not have those responsibilities.

[859] Now, how do you structure a class?

[860] Do you sit down and write out what your objectives are for each class?

[861] Do you structure them on the fly, like as you get there?

[862] Do you have specific things that you want to work on, certain drills that you think that people are lacking?

[863] Like, how do you...

[864] Every day's day.

[865] different and it depends a lot of my mood too um some days i want to do a specific training for me so i'll do like oh something that i feel like i need to work on so then i'll teach that move and i'll something i know i'm not the greatest at so i'll teach that move and then try to really research and see how i can make it better and then work on that move sometimes i see what the class needs and what what the what i feel like those people who are in that class how are they going to get the most out of that class so Some days it's, you know, like that.

[866] Some days it's not.

[867] Some days I come up with stuff on the moment.

[868] Some days I'm kind of like thinking about something all day.

[869] Every day is different.

[870] And, yeah, basically I never write anything down before.

[871] I kind of just do everything on the spot.

[872] And basically my goal when I'm teaching is to make my students better and to make them gain, you know.

[873] So how I'm going to do that, I don't know.

[874] I'm just going to kind of see and feel where it is.

[875] You know, sometimes I have a lot more beginners.

[876] I'm not going to teach a fancy or something that took me 20 years to figure out.

[877] I'm not going to teach it to somebody at beginners.

[878] So if there's a class and it's mostly beginners, I'm going to teach them mostly beginner stuff.

[879] If there's a class and these guys want to all train, then we will do all these trains.

[880] So it depends.

[881] It's an interesting aspect about jihitsu that's most people that have never trained.

[882] It's very difficult for them to grasp the depth of technique.

[883] There's so many different techniques.

[884] And there's so many different techniques that transition into other techniques.

[885] it's for for the lay person to kind of understand it it's it's it's almost impossible it's when you when you see someone like yourself that has a deep knowledge of it and and then teaches and trains and competes you got to kind of pay attention to it for many many many hours before you even see how deep the water is yeah i i feel like the more you learn the more you realize you don't know you know and it can always be easier for you know like if if you're training and you're having trouble if it's difficult for you to beat your opponent then you're doing something wrong you know it should be easy you should be able to outsmart your opponent and it should be easy jiu jitsu is easy really so if you're having a struggle with any kind of training session or anything then that means you need to improve on something else to make your life easier so I really don't think that there is ever like a cap where you're going to be like oh I know everything and it gets to such a small detail and then it gets to like the timing of not only being able to know and to do what you do but do it at the right time so it's very complicated so complicated i've cried so many times trying to figure it out and uh uh i still still to this day i feel like fuck i'm only like maybe even halfway of where i want to be dennis mckenna who's this very brilliant guy had an interesting expression when it came to learning things he said the brighter the bonfire of enlightenment the more surface area of ignorance is revealed field.

[886] So the more you know, the more you realize, God, there's so much shit to know.

[887] Yeah.

[888] It's true.

[889] And it sort of applies to everything.

[890] But I think one of the unique things about Jiu -Jitsu and one of the things that I've gotten, not just for myself, but from other people that I've inspired to begin Jiu -Jitsu and start training Jiu -Jitsu, is that they say that it makes everything else in their life better.

[891] That they say that the J -Jitsu training, the difficulty of it, and the learning about themselves has helped them.

[892] And virtually everything.

[893] they do.

[894] Yeah, I definitely agree.

[895] I wouldn't, you couldn't give me a billion dollars today to take away the jiu -jitsu I know.

[896] And, you know, that's it.

[897] There's no way, you know, like how I feel as a man, how I talk, and how I am, he's 100 % because of jiu -sitsu.

[898] And that's just something that I'm very grateful to be, to have landed where I landed in the footsteps of following my father's footsteps and it's it's just a real jiu jitsu will for sure save your ass one way or another not necessarily a physical fight but also being able to deal with yourself know about yourself and and it really improve yourself as a whole because it's very easy to get trapped into like a daily life schedule and you kind of don't even tap to your potential you don't even tap into discovering yourself and realizing all these feelings i feel a lot when i could come compete and when I train for a fight and when I know I got a fight and this is the deadline.

[899] And if you, on this day, you're going to show up whether you're going to be ready or not or whether you're sick or hurt or this day, this is going to happen.

[900] So to know that that day is going to happen and to be nervous and to train for that and to put so much energy and wake up early and do a and drink this special juice and do this and, you know, eat healthy and all this stuff.

[901] that only makes you, you know, more sure of yourself and when the day happens, you know, like then after.

[902] So it makes me feel alive.

[903] All these feelings that you get before you fight or when you're fighting or training for a fight, it makes me feel alive and I love that feeling.

[904] Now, if you take away competition from my life, I will go crazy.

[905] I'll go crazy.

[906] I just wouldn't know what the days would just seem like repetitive.

[907] I have no passion.

[908] I kind of lose my drive.

[909] I kind of just start going down a dark hole.

[910] So I think that jujitsu competitions really makes me feel alive.

[911] And every time before, I feel nervous.

[912] And then after when I win or lose it, it's just you only gain.

[913] And when you know that you're going to have a fight, you gain because you know that you've got to be at your best.

[914] So you're always like, how am I going to get my better?

[915] And you're never good enough.

[916] And then it's just so it makes me feel real good.

[917] One of the things that I feel is missing in today's society is that people can get by really easily.

[918] You know, all you have to do is show up for work, do your job, go home, eat food, go to sleep.

[919] You don't have to struggle to acquire that food.

[920] You don't have to really go through life or death scenarios on a daily basis.

[921] For most people, a life or death scenario is incredibly, incredibly rare.

[922] but those scenarios are sort of replicated inside the gym on a daily basis when some jiu -jitsu black belt is mounting you and he's choking the shit out of you survival is a key thing it's real it's real like you know look look if if i'm rolling and you know john jock's on top of me and he's got an arm triangle and you know i might black out i'm 100 % certain he's not going to kill me he'll tap me You know, I'll go, even if he chokes me out, I'll go to sleep.

[923] I know that I'm going to survive.

[924] But you don't feel that at the time.

[925] When you are getting choked, that is life or death.

[926] It really truly is.

[927] Yeah, you can't fake those feelings that you feel when you're training and you put yourself through all these situations.

[928] And I've been put to sleep many times in training, you know.

[929] And, you know, that's a crazy feeling, you know.

[930] It's a crazy feeling to like, I don't want to tap and I don't want, I'm going to almost get out and I'm going to almost.

[931] And then you just wake up.

[932] up and your motherfuckers are laughing at you.

[933] So that's a feeling that you cannot replace.

[934] There's no other way that you're going to be able to feel that unless you personally are like living in that moment and no matter what, there's nothing more intense than somebody trying to choke you.

[935] You know, you're natural.

[936] So you feel those feelings and how you deal with those feelings are going to really dedicate your life.

[937] And that's how I kind of am able to to read.

[938] people is how they deal how do they deal when they're under stress how do they deal when they're winning how do they deal when they're everything's going good are they the same person when they're losing them when they're winning how do they deal when when somebody's out so I've kind of always been really curious to see how people are and how they how do they react you know how are you going to react when somebody's beating you how you're going to somebody who's, when you're winning, when you're stronger, or how are you going to rack when somebody's weaker and you're just trying to help.

[939] So I think it's a kind of a great experience.

[940] Jiu -Jitsu reveals character.

[941] Oh, I know more about my students than they know about themselves.

[942] You know, I'll tell them exactly where they, you know, I know everything about them because I've trained with them and I know what they feel, how they feel when they're feeling great, how they feel when they're feeling weak, when they, when they, when they, when they, when they, when they're winning you know i know how to feel if you're a coward if you're if you're if you're if you have heart if you have patience if you you know have dignity all these things are are things that i can feel when i train with you just give me five 10 minutes to train with you and i'll know more about you than probably you yourself unless you're a very experienced person with yourself so um and that's what i kind of judge my whole basis on is how i feel how i judge somebody on how they train i don't judge somebody how they talk to me you know sometimes i'll get people who they're super nice and they're super oh yeah and super respectful in person and they love they're just the perfect person right and then when they train they just there's this malice from them and i don't it's weird you know you're like whoa that malice is for real malice towards other yeah towards other people or just not how they were when they were normal you know so when they're able to act they're able to put this show on for whoever but when they're training there's no way you can hide your personality so and it goes the other way too it goes other people sometimes people are very cold and rude and and and that's not necessarily them they just don't feel necessarily when they train they're they're respectful and they and they they're you know they're trying to get better so there's a lot of different ways that you can kind of feel people out and i just kind of do my judgment on their training i don't really care what people of course i care but i don't judge too much on what you say and how you are of course i feel it but when I train with you I'll make my final decision and on that note that's a beautiful way to describe it I love that I love that statement when I train with you I'll make my final decision that's so true man that's so true you learn so much about someone when they train now as far as your goals you've achieved world championship status in jujitsu what are your goals from now my goal now is to focus on MMA and to to be the best.

[943] I can be in MMA.

[944] So that's my new mission.

[945] So you have aspirations to fight in the UFC?

[946] Yeah.

[947] I mean, right now I think that Japan is the better opportunity for me. But, you know, whatever if it's UFC or, you know, I'd love to fight.

[948] You know, the UFC has the best fighters and the best organization.

[949] So of course I would like to test myself against those guys.

[950] So you want to try other organizations first, get your feet wet in MMA and then eventually jump in?

[951] I don't know.

[952] Exactly.

[953] but all I know is right now I have Japan to negotiate with and I know that of course wherever the best fighters are that's where I want to be what do you think about guys like like Haja Gracie for example he's a perfect example of a guy is a very high -level jiu -jitsu guy who just hasn't really been able to get that much going in MMA I don't train with him so I don't really know I know that he's a legend in Jiu -Jitsu and he's been able to really excel in Jiu -Jitsu but I don't train with him so I don't train with him so I don't with him I don't know necessarily how well he what he does or anything so I really hope that he's able to excel in MMA and I really hope that he's able to show what he's about and bring the game to his game and I saw a fight with him with Kennedy I think it was and I just felt like he wasn't able to find his place and he wasn't able to find himself really in the fight And I don't know if that's lack of training, lack of advice, lack of knowing what to do.

[954] I don't know what it is, really.

[955] And I'm curious to see if that's going to happen with me, too.

[956] I think it's also Tim Kennedy, too.

[957] Tim Kennedy is a stud.

[958] He's an animal.

[959] Very good.

[960] He's really a dangerous guy in a lot of ways.

[961] And there's a lot of stuff, weight cuts and this.

[962] That's a big part, too.

[963] So there's no real, I don't know, and I'm not the owner of the truth to be able to tell you what he's doing or why he's not.

[964] or what i don't know he's different than me he's a different size of me he's like a huge guy um i would love to see him just whoop ass you know i would love to see him do really well but his just style is a little different than mine you know he's bigger he i'm not i have to 100 rely 100 % rely on my technique and my leverage and and we'll see what happens i'm really curious that's why i'm in this is to see and to prove to the people what i'm about so i hope Pajar wins, and I hope he does well, and I hope he's able to find himself and really be able to be where he's at, which is the number one place.

[965] You know, that's where he deserves to be.

[966] Were you there for any of Hoyler's MMA fights?

[967] No. He had some disastrous results in MMA against some really high -level guys where it seems like maybe he took some fights that, you know, maybe wasn't quite prepared for.

[968] do you learn from anything like that when you see him fighting guys like he fought kid yamamoto right and genki sudo and real real high level guys yeah i don't know i just uh but he's another example of a very technical jiu jitza guy very high level i'm curious you know i'm curious to see what i'm going to be about in mama really i for me to say sit here and tell you and be and act like i know what i'm doing and like i know the rules and i like i know the truth behind everything is bullshit because I don't and I'm in it just like you're curious to see how I'm going to do.

[969] I'm curious to see how I'm going to do too and I hope I do well and I hope I am able to to do everything that I want to do but I don't know I don't know if that's going to happen and that's why we're going to that's why I go there and test myself because if I knew I was going to win I probably wouldn't even fight well that's a beautiful aspect of what you're trying to do the fact that you're embracing a challenge that you are you are gravitating towards the most difficult thing you could possibly do.

[970] And I can't wait.

[971] I can't wait.

[972] Look at it.

[973] See what you're saying.

[974] You know, it's beautiful.

[975] The attitude's beautiful.

[976] Your thought process behind it, the reason why you're doing in the first place.

[977] It's all the right stuff, man. All right stuff.

[978] Thank you.

[979] Well, listen, man, thank you very much for an awesome conversation.

[980] Thank you, man. I look forward to seeing you compete in whatever you do, whether it's jujitsu or MMA.

[981] I love your attitude.

[982] I love all the things you've said.

[983] I think you've opened up a lot of people's ideas and a lot of people's minds on how profound your things.

[984] thinking is and uh i think uh it's very inspirational i appreciate i enjoyed it very very much thank you so if you are anywhere near culver city that's where your your academy is yep give us the address and uh what's the you have a website for the academy crongracyjujitsu dot com and uh my instagram riochitzu dot com go there folks go learn train some serious legacy here and uh hopefully We'll see you in MMA.

[985] I would love to call one of your fights in the UFC.

[986] That would be an honor.

[987] Me too, man. Thank you.

[988] All right.

[989] A beautiful podcast is done, ladies and gentlemen.

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[996] We'll be back tomorrow with David Seaman.

[997] And we will be back on Thursday with Brian Callan, Steve Renella.

[998] And Doug Duren, we're going to talk about a hunting trip in Wisconsin and share some hilarious stories.

[999] And we've got a lot of good guests coming, a lot of good shit.

[1000] So we'll see you guys soon and much love.