EXPERTS ON EXPERT: Keith Morrison

[0] Hello, everybody.

[1] I'm Dax Shepard.

[2] I'm joined with Minnie Mouse, Manic and Padman.

[3] I posted a photo of her.

[4] You'll have probably seen that before you heard this episode, but she looks just like miniature mouse today.

[5] I'm wearing a bow in my hair.

[6] A red bow.

[7] A red bow in my hair.

[8] And you have cute shoes on that look like mice feet.

[9] Or I guess miniature mouse, she always wore high heels or something.

[10] Yeah, these are not the shoes that a mini mouse would wear.

[11] You look a lot like mini mouse today.

[12] It's, So fun.

[13] It's been a blast to be around you for a few hours.

[14] Today, if anyone who knows my wife and I well, knows that we are head over heels in love and obsessed with Keith Morrison.

[15] We came to love him on Dateline, which we watch religiously.

[16] We just can't get enough of those murder mysteries.

[17] We like it dark, Minnie.

[18] I know that you do.

[19] In fact, our early friendship was forged.

[20] Well, this is a cute story about Monica.

[21] Back in Atlanta, three and a half years ago.

[22] Yeah.

[23] We had devoured all these episodes of Dateline, but I prefer the ones that are Keith Morrison handles, the heavy lifting.

[24] Sure.

[25] And so you had gone through all of the episodes and labeled what they were about, who hosted the whole thing.

[26] You had a whole breakdown.

[27] Synopsies, title.

[28] The way you would have done with your friends episodes.

[29] when you were younger.

[30] Yeah, it really brought me back to that.

[31] It was nice.

[32] That might have been the first time I was just really blown away with your due diligence.

[33] Yeah.

[34] It was way a step above and beyond.

[35] Just to have that little pat of paper as a cheat sheet.

[36] It was great.

[37] Wanted to give you it you wanted.

[38] And you did in a big, big way.

[39] Dateline, their 27th season is going to debut September 28th at 10 p .m. Eastern on NBC.

[40] Keith Morrison is our guest, but before we get to Keith Morrison, our guests, we have a very exciting development here at AE headquarters, which is somebody bought a left -handed mug.

[41] I mean, it's for real, you guys.

[42] Somebody purchased a left -handed mug.

[43] A lefty mug.

[44] We got so excited here and we decided what kind of pieces of shit would accept 2 ,000 for a mug.

[45] It started as a joke, but because this wonderful woman, Shauna, bought this mug.

[46] She's up in Washington.

[47] We decided a couple things.

[48] We're going to donate that money to a worthy cause.

[49] And we're going to call Shauna to celebrate her purchase.

[50] And maybe we'll get a thing going.

[51] So other philanthropic people will know it's really going to go somewhere good.

[52] And you'll talk to us.

[53] So without further ado, this is our conversation with Shauna.

[54] And then when that concludes, we'll be into Keith Morrison.

[55] This is Shawman.

[56] Hi, Shana.

[57] It's Daxon Monica.

[58] Holy cow.

[59] Oh my gosh, you too.

[60] Shauna.

[61] Shana?

[62] So, Shana, you're the first person to have bought a left -handed mug.

[63] And have you received the mug?

[64] I have.

[65] And I happen to be left -handed.

[66] Oh.

[67] We're of a better breed, aren't we?

[68] Totally.

[69] I'm so appreciative.

[70] that you say that, Dax, because it sounds provocative sometimes to say it.

[71] Yeah, it's a little egotistical to say it, but let's be honest.

[72] We're the chosen people.

[73] But let's be honest, it's fucking true.

[74] And I just appreciate you affirming it.

[75] And what do you do up in Bellingham?

[76] Now that I just said the F word, you might be surprised.

[77] But I'm an HR executive for a health system.

[78] Oh.

[79] I like it even more for an HR person to let loose some profanities because I go, oh, they get it.

[80] We live in the real world.

[81] Makes are human.

[82] Yeah, you're on my team.

[83] Now, what did I do wrong?

[84] I'm more open to it.

[85] It is totally true.

[86] It is totally true.

[87] I've done it for a long time.

[88] So both the cursing and HR.

[89] Okay.

[90] Well, we are going to pay your generosity forward and we're going to donate the money that you spent on your left -handed coffee mug to a charity.

[91] Now, is there a charity that you love that we don't feel like it's to reelect like a pedophile or something?

[92] Is there a charity you love?

[93] A non -controversial charity.

[94] An apolitical charity that you happen to love.

[95] Not the Roy, whatever, Roy Moore Fund, whatever that was.

[96] The Roy Moore Legal Fund?

[97] Oh, my God.

[98] Defense Fund.

[99] I'm super passionate about homelessness, particularly folks, where there's a lot of homeless stuff that's respite, but ones that are specifically dealing with families because homeless, homeless, they're similar to the immigration issues.

[100] A lot of times they're forced to split families up to provide respite housing.

[101] And so there's a local, there's a local nonprofit Lydia place that deals with specifically keeping families together, especially if mom or dad have a conviction and they can't get into regular.

[102] Anyway, I could send you some in for me. That's great.

[103] That sounds great.

[104] Because that's kind of what Path does in L .A. here is they get families housing.

[105] Totally.

[106] Okay, so it's Lydia's, Lydia's way?

[107] Lydia's place.

[108] Lydia's place.

[109] They are a United Way partner agency and they are not Kukaluka, that's a technical term, nor are they associated with any specific church, you know, religious church.

[110] That was the word I was like, yeah.

[111] Yeah.

[112] No, not.

[113] Uh, fantastic.

[114] Well, we're going to then pay forward your humongous generosity.

[115] We also, you probably can't imagine the elation that happened.

[116] It was like a bomb went off because my sister learns of this first.

[117] My sister Carly receives the orders, and she just started spastically texting us someone bought a left -handed mug and then we were then calling each other and then my wife was in on it and everyone was just we were so excited yeah it's really exciting that makes happy i i'm gonna sound like a gusher well obviously it sounded like a gusher if i if i bought a two thousand dollar mug in the hope that you would take in the hopes you would say it forward to charity i believe i knew you well enough that you would but i i i i have told so many people about this podcast.

[118] I'm sure some of my friends are like, just marry it already.

[119] Shut it.

[120] Shut it.

[121] You're a one man street street team.

[122] I'm, oh my God.

[123] I know.

[124] It's like, okay, that's enough.

[125] That's enough.

[126] But I think it is so, it is so important.

[127] I mean, And just your ability to express strong, passionate opinions on controversial topics without drawing blood and maintaining and going there.

[128] I think people have gotten so scared to engage in discourse with each other because I just think there's nowhere, this can and well.

[129] And you expressed love really freely to each other and your guests.

[130] which I also think is really, really important.

[131] This makes us so happy.

[132] And we're going to come up to Seattle and we very much hope that you will come to our show.

[133] And then we'll make sure to point you out and embarrass you and then celebrate you.

[134] I'll be recruiting fellas in the crowd to make Monica signs.

[135] Oh, I can't wait.

[136] Okay, fantastic.

[137] Well, I think I speak for both of us when we say, we love you.

[138] Yeah, we love you.

[139] Thank you.

[140] So generous.

[141] I love you.

[142] Definitely see you in real life in Seattle.

[143] Sounds awesome thoughts.

[144] Okay.

[145] And again, you have my permission to extract my DNA and make a clone of me, you know?

[146] If you meet someone who does cloning, it's there for the taking.

[147] We're just still waiting for the results of your 23 and me, so I can't wait for that podcast.

[148] And we love you.

[149] We love you up here, and I love you guys, huge.

[150] Okay.

[151] Bye -bye.

[152] Bye -bye.

[153] early and ad -free right now.

[154] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[155] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[156] He's an armchair expert.

[157] He's an upchair expert.

[158] I am very, very flattered to announce that one of my absolute idols, Keith Morrison, is sitting in the attic of the armchair expert.

[159] Welcome to our podcast.

[160] I feel like I'm in a strange dream.

[161] You and me both.

[162] Just hearing the tenor, that that timber, I'm waiting to be murdered by Monica.

[163] She looks capable of that.

[164] That she is.

[165] She's an overachiever, so she'd probably have me diced up in minutes.

[166] I've not been able to ever do this with a previous guest because I've not ever written a tribute to a previous guest.

[167] Oh, well, you stop.

[168] But do you, I don't even know that you are aware of this, But the Dateline folks, knowing I'm was such a huge fan of yours, when they had their 25th year celebrate, whatever you guys just celebrated.

[169] Yeah, something like that.

[170] They asked if I wanted.

[171] Long time, anyway.

[172] Yes, decades.

[173] Oh.

[174] They asked if I would write a tribute to you.

[175] And I did.

[176] And it was published in a magazine.

[177] And I doubt you've ever heard it.

[178] Well, I did.

[179] I didn't hear it, but I saw it.

[180] I was, I mean, I didn't know.

[181] Are you allowed to swear?

[182] Oh, yeah.

[183] Fucking Luli.

[184] Yeah.

[185] You can really get into it here.

[186] I read that.

[187] And I thought, I don't know whether a shit or go blind.

[188] That man said those nice things about me. I should or go blind.

[189] I'm definitely going to use that.

[190] But anyways, and I know this will embarrass you, but that's just the price of doing this podcast.

[191] But I'm going to now read my tribute to you, just because I think it's a really good introduction to you and why I love you so much.

[192] This is the tribute.

[193] My love for Keith Morrison started with the obvious things that attract most everyone to him, his appearance and style, his, vocal acrobatics, the poetry behind his storytelling.

[194] But somewhere around my 100th episode, his subtler, more nuanced qualities began to surface, his ability to lean on almost any surface, barbed wire, fire, wind.

[195] His high -octane brand of empathy and his spot -on eye for pairing any environment with the perfect leather jacket.

[196] He is that unique blend of scrappy hustler and honed professional, an intoxicating mix to say the least.

[197] Were you drunk when you wrote that?

[198] No, but I do feel like I channeled you just with the last line to say the least.

[199] Doesn't that sound a little, K .M.?

[200] Well, perhaps.

[201] Yes, perhaps.

[202] This is wonderful.

[203] It really is.

[204] I don't think there could be a more auditorly pleasing guest to have on.

[205] Yeah.

[206] You could just virtually just read passages from the Insightonpedia.

[207] All right, both of you immediately.

[208] But let's just bring it.

[209] everyone up to speed in case you've missed any of these things.

[210] Kristen and I are very obsessed with you.

[211] As I say, I don't know if it should have a good wine.

[212] Right.

[213] But what a wonderful person.

[214] We, you know, I spent a day with her as you know.

[215] She interviewed you, right?

[216] Yeah, she interviewed me. It was a fun little thing.

[217] Yeah.

[218] But I was so impressed with what a really bright, perspicacious sort of person she is.

[219] Yes, she's hyper -talented.

[220] It's boy.

[221] It's not easy to live with her.

[222] It's like if you were, you know, I was going to say that's what I thought after the thing.

[223] But no, I, it's like if you were a bench player in the NBA and then your roommate was Michael Jordan.

[224] It's just a little bit.

[225] It's a bit of a reminder daily of the gap and talent level.

[226] But she loves you beyond belief.

[227] And in fact, I regularly list her get out of jail free cards and you make that list of five.

[228] And I think that makes you uncomfortable because you're a happily married man. But suffice to say, that is true.

[229] You know, it could be her grandfather.

[230] No. She's old.

[231] She's 37.

[232] God, that's old.

[233] See, doesn't that change things?

[234] But we did come to know you on Dateline, which we became obsessed with a few years ago.

[235] And then immediately we were just completely drawn to your segments.

[236] And you're going to think I'm blowing smoke up your ass, but this is a sincere evaluation from my perspective of what makes you so great at that job.

[237] Did you ever see usual suspects?

[238] Yeah, I think I did, but I probably forget much of it.

[239] It's great.

[240] It's Kevin Spacey is playing Kaiser -Sose, and there's this group of other guys, right?

[241] Right.

[242] And one of the guys is Benicio del Toro, the actor.

[243] And it's a nothing role.

[244] There's nothing there for anybody to do.

[245] Any other person would have been completely forgettable, right?

[246] He has no lines.

[247] So he chooses to kind of stutter and mumble his way through this thing.

[248] And all of a sudden, he's the most compelling character in this great ensemble.

[249] He made a mountain out of nothing.

[250] Your job could very easily just be exposition, moving the story along, and yet you're such a huge component of why it's enjoyable.

[251] It's so unique.

[252] It's the weirdest brand.

[253] Truly, I say this sincerely.

[254] Well, I, gosh, very nice.

[255] Yeah.

[256] Did you go into that job?

[257] Obviously, you had had a lot of experience.

[258] in broadcasting prior to that.

[259] I'm extremely old.

[260] No, I don't think so.

[261] And I haven't painted a fence in a long time.

[262] You haven't.

[263] What's the last bit of manual labor you did?

[264] Oh, gee.

[265] Well, tying your shoes.

[266] You don't even do that.

[267] I noticed you were slip on.

[268] No, slip on shoes.

[269] I managed to avoid it all.

[270] What if I noticed when you were leaving that the back of your outfit was Velcroed?

[271] It was just a one piece that you slid on.

[272] it's not a bad idea actually i should work on that so so manual labor have you done any recently not lately no no no you don't have any kind of hobbies that like gardening or anything woodworking well no i used to do that by i i i loved woodworking years ago and i'd build things all kinds of things you know kids dollhouses when they were little they you know they had to get a dollhouse from me yeah and um or a cabinet or something something like that and then one day I was a, my wife was a, for, went for a decade or so of being, uh, an interior designer.

[273] So she was.

[274] And one of her first, um, uh, one of her first clients was, uh, Nancy Grawn.

[275] She's a soap opera actress, been, had had a wonderfully successful career for the past, I don't know, 25, or 30 years, I guess.

[276] Probably done a thousand episodes or something.

[277] At least 30 years.

[278] Yeah, she's done a lot.

[279] And, um, so.

[280] So anyway, she was having her parents over a week or so later, and she had to get this job done and involved because of the time, I guess, everybody wanted to put up crown molding and other houses and, you know, dress them up a little bit.

[281] And so I was cutting some of this crown molding for her bedroom.

[282] And because the guy who was doing the job was a little slow and needed some help and I had the expertise and I had the chop saw.

[283] Yeah.

[284] So I went over there and I was cutting away.

[285] Now, doing crown molding is very difficult because it comes out at an angle and it doesn't all come out at the same angle.

[286] You have to figure out the angle and the way to cut it.

[287] There's a method that I didn't really learn properly.

[288] Okay.

[289] Here we go.

[290] Here's the inciting incident.

[291] Right.

[292] See my thumb here?

[293] I just now notice, yeah.

[294] So I corkscrewed the thumb.

[295] I It came off, but it came off in a kind of a corkscrew pattern.

[296] Oh, my goodness.

[297] Yeah, so it was complicated.

[298] And, oh, no, I said.

[299] What was your actual reaction?

[300] Do you remember?

[301] It was that.

[302] It focuses in the mind, but for some reason, it wasn't to produce a screaming.

[303] Oh, oh.

[304] So Suzanne was there.

[305] She was working on this project, too.

[306] I'm assuming there's a lot of blood, right?

[307] Quite a bit of blood in the bedroom of the soap opera.

[308] In fact, it was all over the ceiling, the walls, a brand new carpet that Suzanne had bought for her.

[309] The bed, everything.

[310] And so we hopped in the car and went to the hospital.

[311] And this doctor, like 18 hours later, he had reattached it.

[312] Wow.

[313] Doesn't bend right or look properly like a thumb, but it had better than a dog.

[314] I'm like a monkey now.

[315] Well, visually, I can't tell.

[316] anything from this distance.

[317] Yeah, it looks normal.

[318] And I'm only four feet away, so if it was really, well, how about you, Monica?

[319] You're gonna, you're a little closer.

[320] It looks totally, I would never have thought twice.

[321] Really?

[322] I'm not very observant.

[323] You don't look at that thumb and go, oh, no. I don't.

[324] Right.

[325] It doesn't look like it's been through an oh, no experience.

[326] But for listeners who are not geographically inclined, right?

[327] You're from Canada.

[328] And you grew up in where?

[329] Saskatchewan or something?

[330] You've done, you know this.

[331] Well, yes, I grew up in Saskatchewan.

[332] I see, I didn't say it correctly.

[333] Saskatchewan.

[334] Okay, Saskatchewan.

[335] Eastern Canadians call it Saskatchewan, and it drives Saskatchewan.

[336] It's crazy because they say Saskatchewan.

[337] It's your Oregon, Oregon.

[338] Exactly.

[339] Uh -huh.

[340] So the people who live there see, you know, it's kind of talking down to you when they use that expression.

[341] Uh -huh.

[342] And so, you know, I grew up in one of those places.

[343] It was a little bit resentful of the elites on the coast.

[344] Is that mid?

[345] It's right in the middle of the country.

[346] It's flat as a pancake.

[347] Is it above Montana?

[348] Is that your border state?

[349] Kind of Montana, North Dakota border.

[350] If you went straight up from that border, you'd get to Saskatoon.

[351] Oh, okay, Saskatoon.

[352] And the population, when you were a kid there, what is that?

[353] When I was a kid, it was, you know, maybe 150, $170 ,000 or something like that.

[354] So it's a good size.

[355] Yeah, I used to think of it as sort of the Paris of the prairies.

[356] Oh, okay.

[357] A river going through it and bridges.

[358] Of course, you know.

[359] call it the Paris of the Prairies.

[360] I can see you introducing some gruesome murder there right now.

[361] But what did your folks do?

[362] My dad was a preacher, a minister.

[363] Oh, no kidding.

[364] Yes, in a kind of a, you know, and then at the time increasingly progressive Protestant church called the United Church of Canada.

[365] They don't have the equivalent here really.

[366] It's, if you took the most progressive churches, Progressive, is that the right word?

[367] I guess so I think, yeah.

[368] The most progressive churches.

[369] You're saying like don't kill gay people, basically.

[370] Yeah, pretty much.

[371] In fact, why don't you have a gay person as your moderator of the church of the main person?

[372] Well, that's definitely progressive, I would imagine.

[373] And a gay female, a gay black female.

[374] Oh, my goodness.

[375] So that kind of thing.

[376] A lot of intersectionality here.

[377] Right.

[378] So if you put all those reading.

[379] progressive churches together and then you made them a little more progressive that's no kidding yeah oh wow called the United Church of Canada and so he was a he was a minister there but the point was I guess or whether there was a point I don't know is this is a pointless show let me just take the burden off of you there's no fucking point to any of this it's just uh it answers the question what if I was in a room hanging out with Keith Morrison Monica Padman and Dag Sheppard and I get to talk about myself and it's really kind of I like it.

[380] You told me that I should tell I should I should out you that just before we started.

[381] You said you're just generally not comfortable being asked the questions.

[382] Yeah.

[383] Well, you know, it seems odd to talk about yourself like this.

[384] You said self -indulgent.

[385] Yeah.

[386] But don't you think that someone that's accomplished a lot like you have, that you could be of service to people, that you could share with people the journey, the times that it was maybe hard, that you found some tactic or tool to overcome and that that's something people could adopt.

[387] do you have a value to pass on?

[388] You could...

[389] That's the arc of a story there that you've got.

[390] Do you write them yourself?

[391] I do.

[392] I'm a writer.

[393] Yeah, yeah.

[394] So, mom, what's mom's capacity while dad's minister?

[395] She was the choir leader and the organist.

[396] So it was a team, you see.

[397] Oh.

[398] The consequence was that all of us kids went to church every Sunday and went to the Sunday school and taught Sunday school and went to church twice, actually, morning and night.

[399] Oh, wow.

[400] Did you like it as much as I did, which was, I hated it?

[401] Or did you?

[402] You know, it was, my father was such a wonderful man. It was impossible to hate it.

[403] Oh, okay.

[404] But it was, okay, here we go.

[405] It's just the seating, if nothing else, it's uncomfortable, right?

[406] Those pews, they're made of fucking plywood.

[407] I know.

[408] I feel like they're making people basically repent, repent just by sitting.

[409] It's like a weird view.

[410] Got it out of here.

[411] Yeah, that kind of.

[412] Do you think it's by design?

[413] Oh, I don't know.

[414] Could be.

[415] I don't know.

[416] It wouldn't be that challenging to make those things comfortable.

[417] McDonald's has figured it out.

[418] Some of them do, but they sort of feel as if they're bypassing the art where you, yeah, because there's a sort of a penance involved.

[419] Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[420] It's like you got to earn it or something.

[421] Yeah.

[422] Or maybe it is also, it could be to stave off people falling asleep because it could get boring at times.

[423] And if you're too comfortable, maybe.

[424] Could be.

[425] It's like a talk show.

[426] They keep it, they keep it at like 58 degrees, right?

[427] To keep that audience.

[428] it's awake because they'll lose people right if it's warm oh is that why they do it no yeah yeah um okay so mom mom is running the choir and she's the organist yes and i was in the choir oh you were yes and um so you had to do all these things and and in the end it was incredibly beneficial because uh these are all things that are are extremely valuable in my line of work you learn how to speak correctly, how to speak to crowds of people because, you know, as we grew up, we'd be allowed to read the lesson or something like that or, you know, teach a bunch of little kids about something.

[429] So you're learning those skills and you're learning how to sing.

[430] And my mother used to have this expression, which was the cadence is everything.

[431] The way you, the way you emote or the way you, a musical way of singing and talking will pull people into your, we'll get people hoping that you succeed as you perform for them because they're into it.

[432] Yeah, they're rooting for you.

[433] Right.

[434] I mean, that was the notion she, I think.

[435] And then I also imagine another benefit that that applied later in life was that you're also dealing with a cross -section of the community.

[436] You're not siloed in whatever socioeconomic bracket, right?

[437] It's probably attracting I. Sure.

[438] Yeah.

[439] Oh, I interrupt people all the time.

[440] No, I do.

[441] People complain about it on Twitter all the time.

[442] I'm just so excited to talk to people.

[443] Well, And you're exciting to talk to, so there you go.

[444] Yeah, so you have carte blanche to interrupt as much as possible, yeah.

[445] But your point is a very good one because you know that probably 75 % of the people, just talking about that situation in those little churches in the Canadian prairies, that 75 % of the people about don't really agree with this progressive theology.

[446] Increasingly progressive theology, they wish you wouldn't do that.

[447] Yeah.

[448] And they have a much more, people are much more inclined to want to have a kind of a hard and fast rules -based system that doesn't change.

[449] Yeah, yeah.

[450] We're very comfortable in black and white, right?

[451] That's comforting for some reason.

[452] So you say things with a realization.

[453] Some people aren't going to like what you are about to say.

[454] So you're a little bit careful with their feelings because if they don't like what you say, they're just going to turn you off.

[455] Right.

[456] Yes.

[457] You don't want to alienate the people you're trying to connect with, right?

[458] So that's a skill.

[459] And can you, do you have a comfortable lifestyle as the minister and organist?

[460] Was life comfortable?

[461] You guys were?

[462] No. Actually, it, and in my father's case, it was probably by choice as much as anything else.

[463] But in the years, many years now since he died, just talking about what a great person he was.

[464] But he really was.

[465] and he would he lived the message uh -huh did he live a spartan lifestyle he lived a spartan life he was he never in uh i think they i can't remember what year he retired but he he would have made the equivalent of less than minimum wage uh -huh his entire career wow and raised five kids and did that make you covet wealth no not particularly i um i think i am uh I feel guilty about it I have a pretty comfortable life now Yeah it could be something to wrestle with I completely coveted it so I don't feel that guilty about it But also it's not you know I talk about this all the time It's also not the fantasy I had either So when you covet it you run the risk of Oh this fantasy I whipped up in my head of being Ricky Schroeder on Silver Spoons It's just I don't have a train in my house No you probably hadn't see that show But he was a little kid and he had a locomotive in his house.

[466] No, I saw that show.

[467] As you're talking, my mind drifted and I was thinking about this lovely house.

[468] We could probably house a train in there someday.

[469] Yeah, I should think so.

[470] But so when you told your father that you wanted to pursue journalism, did that feel like a worldly endeavor?

[471] I didn't tell him that.

[472] In fact, I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do.

[473] And I was a terrible student.

[474] I never did my homework.

[475] I didn't study ever.

[476] And so you can skate through for a period of time and even through high school.

[477] Was that because of attention deficit issues or do you think you had a learning disability?

[478] And nobody talked about those things then because remember, I'm super old.

[479] So at the time it was just, you know, I fidgeted and I didn't pay attention.

[480] Yeah, yeah, okay.

[481] And I didn't.

[482] And I, so, but my teachers were good enough to let me graduate from high school with a high enough average to go to college, which I immediately screwed up in every imaginable way by being interested in all the extracurricular stuff, not the, you know, go get drunk and get laid, but the more like, okay, now I'm going to change the world and join a political club and, you know, be in debates and things like that.

[483] And I don't, you know, then you don't study for the political science exam and you write some sort of BS about the marvelous philosophies that you don't have a clue about.

[484] So you don't do great in high school.

[485] But you graduate.

[486] Do you mind if I turn the phone off?

[487] I don't mind at all.

[488] I'm so sorry.

[489] It's going to be hard to offend me. I do that all the time.

[490] You know, before we start interviews, the sound person will say, oh, everybody's phones turned off.

[491] Yeah.

[492] Also, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[493] I forget to turn it off my phone every time and it rings in the middle.

[494] Yeah.

[495] It's got to be very uncomfortable when it rings and you're in the middle of a very emotional part of an interview, right?

[496] Yeah, kind of.

[497] Yeah, that's a bit of a faux pot, I'd say.

[498] So, but you graduate from college, I'm assuming.

[499] No, no, no, no, I flunked out.

[500] No, I was.

[501] This story is full of twist and.

[502] Oh, yeah, no. Okay.

[503] Yeah.

[504] How does one get into journalism in Canada?

[505] Well, you know, nowadays you get into it the same way you do it here, which is you go to some fancy journalism school as a post -grad after you get your, you know, basic arts degree or whatever they call it.

[506] And but then I think there was maybe there were only one or two journalism schools of any note anywhere in North America.

[507] and but they were they were becoming popular so people were starting to go to them i however having been you know unceremoniously evicted until if you decide to become mature you could maybe apply to come back but not for a while oh interesting this feels very canadian yeah so we still love you you have to leave but we do love you and we're rooting for you so figure your shit out and come about.

[508] Right, exactly that.

[509] Yeah.

[510] So my ever -kindly father said, well, you know, we have this program in the church where you can go off and spend a summer filling in for ministers who are taking their holidays in small towns, little farming towns, very small because we don't want us grew up too much.

[511] Yeah.

[512] And I did that for a summer.

[513] You did.

[514] You spread the gospel at 20 some years old.

[515] Yeah, 20.

[516] And so I'd be looking out of this crowd of farmers and, you know, salt of the earth's people who'd lived full lives and many of them were in their 60s or 70s or something.

[517] And they've been around and I hadn't.

[518] And I, you know, I'd say all these things that I thought were heretical and they'd be falling asleep in the past.

[519] Uh -huh.

[520] But you know what I know.

[521] Can I just say that that takes a tremendous amount of balls to be 20 and get up in basically in form.

[522] elder people that yeah there's a leap of faith in there there's well but i realized it was so foolish it you know and not only that but i didn't really believe what i was saying anyway okay but but my first official god it's weird talking about yourself like the end really is so indulgent anyway it's so interesting for us yeah so my first um uh official function as this student minister for the summer was a funeral for an 80 year old farmer who had suddenly died and left his wife of close to 60 years as a widow and a farm nobody knew what was going to happen to and it was a the neighbors would come around and help but anyway there's a few this is heavy this is heavy yeah yeah I had to do the funeral and so I met with the widow all you know 20 years of me and um and was trying to figure out how to be empathetic and comfort her in her situation and ask her what she wanted me to do and she started asking me for advice and kind of leaning on my shoulder and wow it was a moment where you thought boy if you if you don't know what you're talking about you better uh go figure it out before you start messing with people yeah the stakes are high and they're real and right yes this is a real human stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare What's up, guys, it's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[523] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

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[527] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[528] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

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[538] I have a similar question about that, but I'm going to save it for a little bit later.

[539] Oh, but just that.

[540] Structure.

[541] Fuck that.

[542] I'm going to go right at it right now.

[543] We can zigzag.

[544] I have to imagine, well, let me just, I'll give you an example.

[545] So there was this popular show, Loveline, it was a radio show, and Dr. Drew and Adam Carolla were the host of it.

[546] And 14 years ago, I went on it to promote a movie.

[547] Okay.

[548] And then you start taking calls from real life people, right?

[549] And these are real problems.

[550] You know, someone's got syphilis or whatever the things were that they had.

[551] And I had a really hard time navigating being funny, doing what I'm there to do, which is to be funny and entertaining.

[552] And then also reminding myself regularly, there's a real human being on the other end of this phone call who's panicked about this thing.

[553] And that's real, real, real.

[554] But I actually have to, as a mental exercise, force myself to go, this is real, this is real, this is real.

[555] Do you ever get caught up in the production of your show and you're managing a lot of things because you produce these things?

[556] and there's lighting and there's time and there's audio and there's, do you ever find yourself having to bring yourself back to like, Keith, this is a real person.

[557] Don't forget that.

[558] Well, I'm, you know, I'm really, really lucky in the respect that this program is so well organized and highly functioning, having practiced for a long time doing this.

[559] I sometimes I tell people, you know, we're just going to sit here and talk.

[560] I don't know what the hell these people are doing around us.

[561] They're just lighting stuff.

[562] They say they're ready, but they're never really ready, and they want to tweak their cameras.

[563] I don't know what the hell they're doing.

[564] Yeah.

[565] And I don't know what the, you know, the producers are all younger and way smarter than me. And they're doing something.

[566] They're probably not asking their college.

[567] No, no. They're all graduated from Columbia with masters in something or at least masters.

[568] And they're really, you know, good at what they do.

[569] And it allows me to not have to think about any of that.

[570] stuff.

[571] Oh, that's nice.

[572] I enter into a story.

[573] And I've just got the sort of background of all the people there and I can sit down across from them like you're doing today and talk.

[574] And, you know, it's a bit of a structure.

[575] But you also have a job.

[576] You know, you're not actually just free to shoot the shit with these people or be completely long as you want.

[577] Like if I can't get it out of them in an hour and then it's two hours.

[578] And if two hours isn't quite enough, Then you just, if you see the possibility that this person is going to contribute significantly to the story, you just go on as well as you want.

[579] Yeah.

[580] But you don't feel that in your brain where you're like, you're juggling an objective, which, again, you have a job to do there.

[581] Now, whether you have the luxury of taking three hours or four hours or whatever, you definitely have a mission.

[582] Sure.

[583] Oh, of course.

[584] And so one side of your brain is engaged, right?

[585] And that's kind of the more tactical, you know, producer brain.

[586] Yeah.

[587] And then the other side of your brain is your emotional brain where you're literally talking to someone who may be lost a child or a spouse or something, right?

[588] And, yeah, I was just wondering if it ever, if you can feel your brain going, okay, click out of that mode, click back into this mode.

[589] Yeah.

[590] No. Not really.

[591] Okay.

[592] I mean, did it start that way or did it evolve?

[593] Yes.

[594] I think it evolves.

[595] And again, it's because you've got really, I don't have to worry about all that stuff.

[596] Right.

[597] That's pretty nice.

[598] Okay, back to college.

[599] You leave college, you bury someone.

[600] You officiate a burial, which is a lot of pressure for a young guy.

[601] And then you end up writing, right?

[602] That's your first foray into journalism as you write for a paper.

[603] Is that accurate?

[604] It was, no. I didn't write for the paper.

[605] I was a gopher for the editor of the paper who was a neighbor of mine.

[606] And that's, it was, you know, it's how you fall into things.

[607] So I'd finish this student minister gig.

[608] I didn't know what the hell to do with myself.

[609] Or all the money you had just made.

[610] Yeah.

[611] But I did have an old car.

[612] You know those old Volvo 544, the sloped back dealios?

[613] 100%.

[614] B -16, the sort of cheapest version of that.

[615] Yeah.

[616] Those are cool.

[617] They are now.

[618] They weren't then.

[619] So I had one of those and I ran most of the time.

[620] But my neighbor up the street was the editor of the local newspaper and he didn't drive for whatever reason.

[621] Sure, sure.

[622] And really what my job was to get the mail to pick him up, to take him to work, so on.

[623] But it was an introduction to the business.

[624] But the thing that made, so the reason, again, I had nothing to do with getting into broadcasting.

[625] Okay.

[626] I was, my only responsibility was to pick up this old kind of grumpy guy, take him to work.

[627] He would have a bag with him.

[628] One was, in the bag was a bottle of glue.

[629] Okay.

[630] And a bottle of some spirit.

[631] Wonderful.

[632] So, this is great.

[633] But he was an old -fashioned editor.

[634] What he would do is he would, somebody would write a story and he would look at it and say, this is a shit.

[635] And he'd cut it up into little pieces, rearrange it so the structure worked better.

[636] And then glue it all together on another piece of paper.

[637] So he did have a genius for that.

[638] Yeah.

[639] And he was an admired guy, really good old -fashioned newspaperman.

[640] But he reached the retirement age of the paper right around the time I was driving him and had to go to a and took a job as the news director of a radio station in Saskatoon.

[641] And he obviously needed to be transported there as well.

[642] He did.

[643] And so that's really when I started it.

[644] So and the...

[645] Did he discover that you had an act for something or something special?

[646] I just thought, boy, I could do this.

[647] Listen to people read the news on the radio.

[648] And it sounds kind of cool.

[649] And I went to see the guy who was running the radio station.

[650] And he said, have you ever been to journalism school?

[651] And I said no, when he said, good.

[652] Wouldn't I have you had.

[653] Oh, really?

[654] Yeah.

[655] That's great.

[656] So it was good.

[657] And the editor would send me down to magistrate's court.

[658] And there you, again, run into the real stories where people have done some, they had a moment where they did a bad thing.

[659] And they are appearing before this pretty grumpy judge in the morning.

[660] And he's, you know, giving them a punishment of some kind.

[661] It's still a small enough town that that stuff got reported.

[662] And the kind of media.

[663] where a rock and roll radio station had a six or seven man news department.

[664] Man wild.

[665] Yeah, no women allowed.

[666] Oh, the good old days.

[667] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[668] Yeah, no monicas.

[669] Right.

[670] Just be nice.

[671] How dare.

[672] This would fall apart without that.

[673] I know.

[674] Yeah.

[675] So I'm going to fast forward.

[676] You end up getting a very legit job as a reporter, right?

[677] And the thing that, if I'm right, that kind of propels you to some, notoriety and a claim is that you end up covering the Yom Kippur War.

[678] Is that?

[679] Yeah.

[680] Yeah.

[681] Right.

[682] I got there.

[683] What is that?

[684] 73.

[685] 73.

[686] Yeah.

[687] Okay.

[688] November 73.

[689] I got there sort of, you know, two -thirds of the way through the thing.

[690] So, had anything prepped you for that?

[691] Had you been on location like that?

[692] Had you been to a war zone?

[693] Not a war zone, no. I mean, I'd done my international reporting had been in Detroit.

[694] Detroit.

[695] I went to Cleveland.

[696] and 71 when the river whatever year when the river caught yeah yeah did that went first time was I was sent down to my not North Dakota to do something rather in some meeting wound up at a party instead yeah too young but um so where were we yam kippur yeah so where did you go Syria or Egypt or Israel you know by that point it was the the the Israeli had kind of resumed the upper hand and they turned the tide back day six of this war or something yeah yeah later maybe anyway so we positioned ourselves in Tel Aviv and really were reporting from the Israeli side and they'd drive us up one day to the Golan heights where there were still battles going on and then the next day we'd go down to um to the Egyptian front which eventually which pretty soon turned into negotiations at a place called kilometer 101.

[697] And there was a tent with Israeli generals and Egyptian generals, you know, arguing it out over where the demarcation line should be and what the rules of the game should be.

[698] And one time a firefight broke out, I don't know, maybe a mile or so from the tent.

[699] And so that was actually the thing that really sticks in my memory and kind of gives you hope for the humanity of mankind.

[700] of these two generals or two high -ranking officers, one Israeli, one Egyptian came tearing out of the tent and hopped into a Jeep together and roared off and stopped that firefight.

[701] Oh, really?

[702] Yeah.

[703] Oh, wow.

[704] And you witnessed it.

[705] Do you get that rush of like, holy shit, I'm actually in a war.

[706] I've only read about this or seen this.

[707] I get a, I'm scared shitless.

[708] I hope I get through this.

[709] Okay.

[710] But also, I mean, I don't know.

[711] I'm not some people are really good at covering conflicts and wars I'm not one of them okay what kind of people were you interviewing are you talking to Israelis or just everything uh well it was easy to talk to the Israelis because you know we were everything because of where we were positioned everything that we everything I wrote and every picture we took had to pass through the Israeli sensor before we could send it back to back to Canada and that was it was normally it wasn't too hard but you you couldn't really there are some things they didn't want you to talk about right I'm not telling tales out of school that's pretty normal that a country in the conflict doesn't want you to tell stories on the other side but that's a unique place and the all you have to do all we had to do was you know leave our hotel room and you know walk two or three blocks and you're talking to a whole different group of people who have an entirely different point of view about the way things are.

[712] And so we spent a lot of time during our time there with Palestinians and learning about their side of the story.

[713] And that, you know, that there's two sides to every story.

[714] And there's, you know, that's both the hope and the tragedy of humankind.

[715] Well, no matter what your position is, you lose sight of the fact that, At very least, there's humans on both sides.

[716] Right.

[717] Right.

[718] So you start talking to someone and you're like, oh my God, this guy's a dad.

[719] Oh, I see as a wedding ring.

[720] Oh, he, blank, blank, blank.

[721] And when they invite you in for dinner and you spend an evening with them and you talk to the whole family and you see what warm, wonderful people there.

[722] And I'm not just talking about that situation, any situation, any conflict.

[723] Yeah.

[724] You've heard people demonized for months or years even, as you know somehow deficient or bad people or run by bad people or something you're right and then you get to know them personally and you realize that's all horseshit yeah these are just people and they're and they're so any i get worked up about that yeah to me war is not exciting war is a dismal failure of the simple uh quality of being human i couldn't agree more with you it is ironic that i've been twice because I am generally a big flaming liberal who's anti -war, but I'm also very pro letting the guys over there know I'm thinking about them.

[725] So it was a weird.

[726] Yeah, it was a mixed bag of emotions while I'm there.

[727] It's like, look at the manpower, look at the ingenuity, look at the expense all to blow shit up ultimately or leave some dead bodies.

[728] And then these poor sons of bitches come home.

[729] Forgive my using that expression.

[730] It's only in the most positive and embracing what he's poor guys and women come home and they have to deal with the aftermath of it and reinsert themselves into society that doesn't really give a shit what they were doing over there they just you know oh yeah and and and they don't get the services they need that's i think pretty much agreed by everybody they've done this huge service for their nation and they're really not appreciated and every time there is one of these conflicts from uh you know second World War, First World War, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan.

[731] They come home and you have a lost generation of people who just have to struggle now.

[732] Yeah.

[733] And also, I remember learning this in a Vietnam history class in college, which I never had thought of, was the guys in World War II, not easy at all.

[734] Obviously, both my grandparents were in World War II.

[735] The amount of confidence They actually saw versus the time they were there versus the Vietnam War was like tenfold, right?

[736] So the guys in Vietnam were seeing way more actual combat.

[737] And then not only that, the guys in World War II, they took a boat home, right?

[738] So they're leaving the Philippines or wherever they were based.

[739] And they've got three weeks with their friends to decompress, talk about what they saw.

[740] The guys in Vietnam got a nudge on the shoulder.

[741] They were on a flight 10 hours later.

[742] They were landing in San Francisco seeing people assigned saying you're a baby killer.

[743] There was no decompression.

[744] There was, you know, it was a 24 hours from a rice paddy to JFK.

[745] Is that the sound of helicopters out here?

[746] I called in the military.

[747] Yes, I thought this would be a great time.

[748] Chinook is hovering overhead.

[749] But yeah, that's a lot to adjust to.

[750] I haven't thought about that three -week decompression thing, but you're right.

[751] That's true.

[752] Yeah.

[753] No, no. And there's an additional thing.

[754] We did a story about this sort of the moral cost of war to the people who actually are, have to do the fighting.

[755] The ugly business.

[756] Yeah, the ugly part.

[757] And in the Second World War, the likelihood that a person who was armed and looking an enemy in the face would actually pull the trigger was very low.

[758] And it made 20, 25%.

[759] Yep.

[760] They wanted up it.

[761] It got up to 50 % of Vietnam.

[762] Yep.

[763] It's up at 85, 90 % now because of the, you know, deliberate training that they get to make that happen.

[764] read a great book written by either Annapolis or the other military academy.

[765] What is it?

[766] West Point.

[767] Psychologist, professor, who's also a vet.

[768] And he wrote a book called On Killing.

[769] Yes.

[770] Did you read that?

[771] That was the book that informed the basis of our stories.

[772] Okay, great.

[773] And what they talk about in there, which was, it's really, it has a broader thing to think about just as a human being, which is what would happen was two really fascinating things is we think of.

[774] our brains is being wired for fight, flight or fight, right?

[775] We're either going to kill someone or we're going to flee.

[776] But that underestimates the two other categories, which are posture and submit.

[777] So if you look at battles between animals and nature, you'll find that 90 % of the time a bear raises up on its back, hind legs, it growls.

[778] The other one coweres, right?

[779] And then that bear, they don't fight.

[780] So that's a built -in mechanism to resolve that conflict without either flight or fight.

[781] And humans have that too.

[782] Sure.

[783] Yeah.

[784] So in trench warfare in World War I, they're seeing a guy run at them with a gun.

[785] The gun's firing.

[786] It's making a loud noise.

[787] Your brain's telling you that's posturing.

[788] So I'm going to submit.

[789] I'm going to go still.

[790] I'm going to put my head down and then I'll be safe.

[791] Right.

[792] That's very hardwired.

[793] I'm not going to fire my gun.

[794] I just want to submit.

[795] Also, when your blood pressure raises above whatever your heart rate, above 160, all your thinking shifts from your frontal low break to your midbrae.

[796] to your reptilian brain and you're no longer you can't make decisions like you and I would normally make decisions you're just an instinct mode so yes they train guys out of that they train guys to act while they're thinking shifting to mid brain and they've been really effective at it and it's crazy okay so you cover the yam kippur war and you win some awards and you get attention and you get a pretty good job off of that it's going well at that point right you're you're gamefully employed to say the least yes yes yes and you got a job of the network.

[797] I was, uh, I was, uh, I was hired.

[798] Um, they, there's a, it was a kind of a sit on a hard church bench for a little while until we decided whether or not you're a serious, uh, person.

[799] And, and, and, and then we might give you a really good job.

[800] So it was, uh, I, um, I was hired by the network, but as the overnight writer to write the news for them, for the morning show.

[801] Okay.

[802] Um, so I'd come at 11 o 'clock at night and I, you know, I felt that I was getting pretty good at honing down a complex story to a 15 -minute tell that the anchor would read.

[803] And then after a few months, I took over as the morning news anchor on the Canadian Morning Show.

[804] And then, I think I was a weatherman at a station of Vancouver in addition to being a reporter.

[805] So I'd go out and cover the harbors and labor disputes during the day And then in the evening, come back and, you know, be the happy weather guy.

[806] Tell him the weather's going to suck.

[807] I mean, primarily your job in Canada is to say this.

[808] This weather sucks, right?

[809] Certainly, Vancouver.

[810] It'll be rainy.

[811] When do you cite your, is it when do you set your sights on America, the USA?

[812] You never did.

[813] No, there's always, you know, among many people working in Canadian television, there's the, well, Peter Jennings went to the States and boy, look how he did.

[814] and morally safer and a whole bunch of people.

[815] It's the big show, right?

[816] Like in sports.

[817] Yeah, exactly.

[818] But with me, it was just like, again, falling into stuff.

[819] I was at the time I'd moved over to the CBC, the mother corporation, the kind of government -funded.

[820] That's your equivalent of the BBC?

[821] Yes.

[822] And it was, in those days, it was the Canadian big show.

[823] So I was doing a, I was co -hosting and reporting for an every evening current affairs show called The Journal, which, the junior co -host, I should say.

[824] Okay.

[825] The main co -host was David Frum's mother, Barbara.

[826] You know David Frum, the conservative commentator?

[827] I don't.

[828] He was, he was the guy who, he was credited with coming up with the line, The Axis of Evil for George W. Bush.

[829] Oh, really?

[830] And he was kind of a punching bag for liberal media as a conservative, but now he's anti -Trump.

[831] And anyway, he's kind of a public intellectual in America.

[832] But at the time, he was a high school student in Toronto and his mother, Barbara, was a Canadian icon and the main host of this program called The Journal.

[833] And I was Barbara's live cutaway, I used to like to say.

[834] Oh, yeah.

[835] Anyway, I was working on that show and I was doing a story.

[836] and a producer of this story and I were sitting in a coffee shop or in a hotel and this is obviously pre -cell phones and I was called to the phone at the hotel and that's like that you're worried someone died probably well yeah I mean you know they would have had to contact somebody at the office at the CBC and they would sort of know where I was staying and might direct the call if it was important.

[837] So I went to the phone and it was somebody who wanted to connect me with the general manager of the television station in Los Angeles, KNBC.

[838] And so this weird thing happened.

[839] And he wanted me to come down and see him.

[840] And it was, it was like that very day, that producer and I had been saying, you know, this, it's great working at the CBC.

[841] I think we'll just, you know, we could be, we could be lifers here.

[842] Yeah.

[843] Yeah.

[844] At the time, I was.

[845] very happy, very comfortable.

[846] I was married to this wonderful woman who had been Pierre Trudeau's press secretary and we were having children like crazy and just having a wonderful time.

[847] Yeah, your first wife worked with the first Trudeau.

[848] My current and first and only.

[849] Oh, that's fantastic.

[850] Well, she is still here.

[851] I guess I didn't.

[852] It wasn't too erroneous.

[853] She is your first.

[854] She's your only.

[855] She's my only.

[856] Let's go it that way.

[857] There was it first.

[858] Anyway Moving on So yeah She worked for the first Trudeau And he was a big hero Right in Canada He was yes They had this Trudomania The Trudomania And he was a lightning rod figure In Canadian politics If it You know the If people were asked Who was the most I mean There is Trudeau Up here somewhere And then the rest of them Kind of vibe for a second but is it is it fair to say he was like the jfk of of canada i think so but he was he was in power a long time he was in power 15 years uh voted out once for a year and then back in again um but he was divisive as well as being uh loved so he was loved and hated but more love than hated and uh and thus his electoral success but he was uh without doubt the the the the most brilliant person I've in whose company I've ever to spend any time.

[859] Uh -huh.

[860] And whenever I interviewed him, he would, which wasn't very often because one didn't get to interview him very often, but it was like a game to him, easy.

[861] Uh -huh.

[862] And he would delight in, uh, in, in kind of dancing around.

[863] Out maneuvering.

[864] And, yeah, just completely, you feel like you're soaking wet and, and feeling quite ridiculous by the time that thing was over.

[865] Really, while you were saying that, I was paying very close attention, but I was also doing the calculus in my head of why I thought that.

[866] No, I was.

[867] I could repeat most of it back to you, I think.

[868] You were soaking wet with perspiration as he outfoxed you.

[869] But I think the reason I said your first wife is I'm also aware of the fact that you're Matthew Perry's stepfather.

[870] So then I guess I assumed that you married a woman later who had already birthed.

[871] Right.

[872] We had both been married before.

[873] Okay.

[874] In fact, the son who lives in Toronto is my son with my first wife and Matthew is Suzanne's son with her first husband.

[875] How old was he when you came into the picture?

[876] He was 10 -ish.

[877] Ten -ish.

[878] Yeah.

[879] Okay.

[880] I can't remember what he's 9, 10, or 11, but in there somewhere.

[881] Now, I'm going to get personal and you don't have to answer, but I once dated a woman with a child.

[882] Yes.

[883] And I fell in love with that child.

[884] Right.

[885] And that's when it got very complicated for me because it was easy for me to stay out of the fold when I was not in love with this kid.

[886] But once I was in love with this kid, I very much wanted this kid to turn out well.

[887] And then I found myself budding in in places I probably should not have.

[888] It was hard for me to love someone not want to help guide them as well.

[889] Was that what I realized in that moment, because I've had many stepdads, it's a much fucking harder job than I had given it credit for.

[890] You've had many stepdad?

[891] Yes, I have.

[892] This is totally It's totally 180 the way it should be today.

[893] I mean, you'd be a fascinating person to interview.

[894] And yet here I am, you know, being asked questions.

[895] Believe me, as you can hear, I interview myself.

[896] Every once in a while, you let out this little bit, you know?

[897] Okay.

[898] Just a little dribble to keep you in straight.

[899] Yeah, so I found it, it gave me a new respect for me and a stepfather.

[900] And I recognize it's a very hard role to take on because you're, again, you invariably fall in love with this kid.

[901] And then you want to, you want to guide him as a. Sure.

[902] Right.

[903] Was that hard for you?

[904] Well, here's the thing about Matthew.

[905] He is a, he's a pretty, he's a remarkable guy.

[906] He's kind of a force of nature.

[907] Right.

[908] And, and we had, I think, a relationship that you'd call respectful.

[909] Oh, right.

[910] He, because he, he wasn't going to be guided.

[911] Right.

[912] He made it clear.

[913] That's not the role I want you to fill.

[914] Right.

[915] Right.

[916] And he'd had, you know, not stepdad's, but other men had been in his life and had tried to mold him in ways he didn't want to be molded.

[917] And he's pretty good at indicating.

[918] No, that's not for me. Yeah.

[919] But he's, he's, he's extremely bright.

[920] He's extremely talented.

[921] And he knows where he wants to go.

[922] Right.

[923] And when somebody is that way, you kind of, you're inclined to want to, okay, I'm going to stand back and watch this kid and see.

[924] how he does.

[925] Well, I applaud that that was your approach because my last stepdad, who's my current stepdad, who's been my stepdad for 24 years or something, he was the only one that did it right for me, which was he didn't try to guide me. He's like, I'll just be here.

[926] You want to chat?

[927] Cool.

[928] If not, I'm not, you know.

[929] And that's exactly what I happen to need.

[930] And again, even though I witnessed that, I found it almost impossible to take that approach.

[931] Parenting is a very interesting thing, isn't that?

[932] You never know when you're doing the right thing or not.

[933] Right.

[934] And you've had a couple dozen kids, right?

[935] I mean, you have a lot of kids.

[936] 32.

[937] How many kids do you have?

[938] Four?

[939] Six.

[940] Six.

[941] Six altogether.

[942] Right.

[943] Um, yeah.

[944] And I assume you learn a lot as you're going, right?

[945] I have two little kids and we're certainly learning hourly.

[946] Yeah.

[947] You're learning how much you're never, ever going to learn.

[948] Uh -huh.

[949] Yeah.

[950] And it requires a certain resignation, right, that you, you know, You're not going to do this perfectly, and that's that.

[951] Yes.

[952] I think that's rule number one.

[953] You understand you're never going to do it perfectly so, but you still have to, every day is a challenge to get it as close to perfect as you can.

[954] Yeah.

[955] I think, anyway.

[956] So as you tell your story, you weren't sending your resume out to everyone in Los Angeles.

[957] You're sitting at a bar and the phone rings and they invite you to Los Angeles.

[958] Yeah.

[959] And you decide and you have to tell your wife.

[960] And, well, you know, things come along.

[961] If something comes along when you're ready for it to happen, like I had just said to this colleague, I'm prepared to be a wifer here.

[962] But in fact, gee, telling, going areas where, should I go on that?

[963] So I was an really ambitious person.

[964] You were or were not?

[965] I was.

[966] Okay, great.

[967] And I had spent some years trying very hard to get the next level up in Canadian television.

[968] Yeah.

[969] And it was one thing after another going up, going up, going up, and then you hit a ceiling.

[970] And at the CBC, I'd gone over there partly to do this show, which I really enjoyed working on, which was very satisfying in many ways.

[971] But also I had my eye on the brass ring, which was the national anchor job, which I knew, we all knew, was coming up very soon.

[972] Because the current anchor was aging and going to retire and going to retire and had indicated so.

[973] and they were actively trying to, they were looking at who was going to be the one.

[974] But can I just point out, though, what a job you've chosen where there's quite literally one job available?

[975] Like, you know, if you want to, you know, pyramidal is exactly.

[976] Yeah, yeah.

[977] So that, the call from the guy in L .A. sort of coincided with the, I've never said this to anybody in public before, but it's kind of coincided with the recognition of the what was said to me by people who know that it that that person on the top of the pyramid was not going to be me after all right so then I'm thinking okay now what now where do you go what do you do yeah and suddenly this guy says come on out it's very different here you know it's California it's like you've been you've been in the Chicago symphony or the you know it's some sort of symphonic production now Come on, I'd do some rock and roll.

[978] Ah, wow.

[979] And it was that different.

[980] I mean, culturally, L .A. is L .A. and it's different than every other place.

[981] And this is, this is 1989.

[982] 80, end of 85.

[983] Oh, geez.

[984] I'm way off.

[985] 85.

[986] But culturally different, yes.

[987] But that wasn't the big thing.

[988] It was in the culture of the business was completely different.

[989] The people's understanding of what news was completely different.

[990] The people delivering the product had a different idea of what it should be.

[991] Because it had some flair and salesmanship to it or some performance.

[992] Flair and salesmanship, A, performance B, and then the content is all different.

[993] That old expression of it bleeds, it leads.

[994] Yeah.

[995] Very much a part of local television in Los Angeles.

[996] We started doing those helicopter chases, car chases, down the freeways.

[997] And you'd go live on the drop of a hat to cover some.

[998] thing that happened, not as, not as, you know, skillfully as now because the tools are available and are better.

[999] But in other words, we were attracted by every shiny object.

[1000] And we didn't, but at the same time.

[1001] It's the polar opposite of Canada just in general culturally, right?

[1002] Yeah.

[1003] But at the same time, they were closing bureaus, NBC was closing bureaus all around the world to save money.

[1004] And KNBC used to have a bureau in Sacramento where they, they had political coverage coming out of the state capitals.

[1005] It seemed like a good idea at the time.

[1006] Closed that.

[1007] And, you know, so we stopped doing, and I'm talking about television generally, we stopped covering the sort of issues that, of governance and of how society ought to function and of city.

[1008] Yeah, it wasn't very sexy to talk about gridlock in the Senate or something, right?

[1009] Right.

[1010] You talk about what's going to allow you to win.

[1011] the sweeps period and uh that's what you put in the news and if you don't and you're an idiot and well then you don't have a job right shortly yeah right um how did you adapt to the la lifestyle though did you at any point go fucking hey i i did it look at this this is great it suns out all the time i'm uh yeah well no that's a no no no i mean you got take the canadian out of You can't make him Stop feeling guilty Boy, it's sunny here Should I really be living in a nice warm climate like this?

[1012] Is it right?

[1013] Isn't that funny?

[1014] There's got to be something wrong with this.

[1015] Yes, it's too good to be true.

[1016] Is this the waiting room for hell?

[1017] Is this Sin City?

[1018] Gotcha, man. Right.

[1019] Boy, I'm really glad I have a lot of issues but I've never had to wrestle with the decadence.

[1020] I've accepted.

[1021] I don't wrestle very hard, understand.

[1022] Okay, you, you, you, you, tapped out, but you were wrestling for a short period.

[1023] Okay, so you're in L .A. for a while and then you missed Tim Horton's Donuts so much that in 92, you moved back up to Canada.

[1024] Well, you know that famous Canadian Leonard Cohen?

[1025] Who, one line in one of his songs has always kind of resonated with me. I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean.

[1026] I love the country.

[1027] I just can't stand the scene.

[1028] And there was something of that is I really, really missed my Canadianness.

[1029] Yeah, sure.

[1030] So anyway, every year or so, somebody would call up and say, you know, why don't you come back?

[1031] And we got something that you might want to do.

[1032] And every time I talk to one of my Canadian friends, I'd say, what are you doing down there?

[1033] Come on back.

[1034] You know, there are things happening here.

[1035] Young Street got a mile longer.

[1036] Very amusing.

[1037] So, long the street in the world, right?

[1038] Young Street has the title, I think.

[1039] Yeah, it does, you know.

[1040] Man has done his reading.

[1041] I owned a Guinness Book World Records as a kid.

[1042] So anyway, the brass ring was at the other network was sort of opening up.

[1043] Dangled in front of me. And the suggestion was I'd go and do the morning show there for a few years and a couple of years because the person doing the national news was probably going to be retiring, had indicated probably this is his last contract.

[1044] Really quick.

[1045] Is your wife kicking and screaming about all these moves or is she up for them?

[1046] She was less enthusiastic about this.

[1047] I think she thought I was going through a selfish phase or something.

[1048] Oh, sure.

[1049] And I think I was, honestly.

[1050] I mean, you know, you start to believe your own shit.

[1051] We're but mere mortals.

[1052] Keith, what are we going to do?

[1053] So then.

[1054] And the guy changed his mind and I found myself on the street one day.

[1055] Well, but was it impacted by this thing that I read about?

[1056] I want to know if this is true.

[1057] But you were going to interview the prime minister in the evening.

[1058] And then you jokingly said, what's his name earlier in the day?

[1059] And he canceled?

[1060] Is that true or not true?

[1061] I had a relationship of sorts with that prime minister of relationship.

[1062] I had known him since I did the first story about him for national television in Canada back in 82 or three when he was had made a run for the leadership of the conservative party I spent some time with him and we you know we jousted and and I did a story about him which he didn't really like very much I think but his response to it was to offer my wife a job on his staff oh interesting and so there was that sort of back and forth and and a a jokey kind of relationship, at least as I saw it.

[1063] Right, right.

[1064] Between the two of it.

[1065] You know, he's a great guy, Brian Maroney.

[1066] You never spend a dull or unhappy moment in Brian Maroonie's company.

[1067] He's a sweet guy with a huge heart, et cetera, et cetera.

[1068] So anyway, he was leaving the stage.

[1069] He was retiring as the leader of the conservative party and prime minister of the country.

[1070] And we were, you know, covering the convention where his successor was being chosen.

[1071] And it was the night before he was going to do his last speech and go off into the, you live in Palm Beach, Florida.

[1072] And we were having him on the show.

[1073] So I, in a amused way, said, hey, we got old, what's his name on the show tomorrow?

[1074] Uh -huh.

[1075] Good joke.

[1076] I stand by that joke.

[1077] Is a comedian I sign off on that?

[1078] There you go.

[1079] Well, what's his name's wife didn't like that very much.

[1080] Mrs. What's his name?

[1081] I don't think he did either.

[1082] And so he canceled and there was a, you know, hoo -hoo about it.

[1083] But that was a lot of straw or anything.

[1084] No, no, no, no. No, it was somebody changed his mind and that was that.

[1085] Okay.

[1086] So that's a spurious conclusion at best that that had any role in you being ultimately relieved of your duties.

[1087] Man, if you're a conspiracy theorist, you can spin all kinds of things.

[1088] I'm not.

[1089] unfortunately.

[1090] So that happens.

[1091] And then do you move back to Los Angeles on your own a quarter, or do you get an opportunity?

[1092] Here's the thing.

[1093] And one of the reasons I'm happy to be working for NBC now, as I always have been, when I was doing the news at KNBC and said to somebody at the network, you know, I'm not sure this is for me, really.

[1094] They said, well, why don't you try reporting for the, for nightly news was Tom Brocah and for Today Show.

[1095] And, and, and, for Today's show.

[1096] I said, sure.

[1097] So I started doing that as well as the anchoring.

[1098] And I loved that.

[1099] And so that was happening where?

[1100] That was happening from Los Angeles.

[1101] But in the years before I returned to Canada.

[1102] So then when I called them up after this thing happened, and I said, you know, can I come back?

[1103] And they had, I was the very next morning.

[1104] I was doing a story for Dateline.

[1105] Oh, that's amazing.

[1106] Went down to Pittsburgh to do a story about a woman running a shop where she fixed transmissions or something.

[1107] You can remember.

[1108] Now, so this is Dateline for one second.

[1109] Your copy that you write, gosh, I wish I would have printed out a thing.

[1110] A thing?

[1111] Often when you set, when you intro a story, I go, I don't even know if that made sense and I'm all in.

[1112] And so I make up fake ones and occasionally, Kristen will write them down.

[1113] But I think we were watching one.

[1114] It was like it starts on a shot of the moon.

[1115] And I said, under a hot moon on a cold winter's night.

[1116] Like you'll really mix.

[1117] You'll mix temperatures, season.

[1118] But I'm assuming you write those, right?

[1119] You write your own copy.

[1120] Yeah.

[1121] Yes.

[1122] It's so good.

[1123] Oh, thank you.

[1124] But truth in advertising, the older I get, the more I rely on this crack staff.

[1125] Sure.

[1126] They, and they can channel me. So they can write in your voice.

[1127] They will produce a script, which I'll say, well, this is shit.

[1128] I'm going to cut into pieces and glue it together.

[1129] No, I don't.

[1130] You pull your glue out in your bourbon.

[1131] Yeah, but no, things have reached the stage now where I go in and I'll write a new top.

[1132] I'll mess around with their, you know, I'll change the language.

[1133] But the structure is somebody else's creation.

[1134] And I just, I work around the edges and make it mine.

[1135] Okay.

[1136] And do you have fun doing that?

[1137] Or is that the homework part of the job?

[1138] I have wonderful time doing it.

[1139] I love doing it.

[1140] Yeah, you're a very good writer.

[1141] That's very nice of you to say.

[1142] Well, that doesn't surprise me because it sounds like your basic door, your foot in the door was that you were condensing these stories into a very good 15 -minute spiel, right?

[1143] That's kind of where you started shining.

[1144] So it doesn't surprise me. When you think about it, a really complicated story that would be, you know, we do these two -hour pieces about an individual thing.

[1145] Friday nights or something, you need two -hour ones?

[1146] And two hours isn't enough time.

[1147] You could do a whole series.

[1148] As you know, you've done these kinds of things and dwell on the little moments.

[1149] When you think of taking a super, super complicated thing, like the state of world peace or relations between two countries and all the millions and millions of little things that go into making up the reason for announcements being made.

[1150] And then what you hear about it is a 15 second piece of copy.

[1151] Some guy reads over the news.

[1152] Yeah.

[1153] So that wasn't a good thing.

[1154] It's changed somewhat with the Internet, but now it's just worse.

[1155] And other things also change.

[1156] Yeah, yeah.

[1157] And so over the 20 plus years you've been there, you've covered such a range of different stories, not just obviously murders and whatnot, but you've covered, you know, Columbine.

[1158] You've covered a child soldiers in Africa.

[1159] You've covered tsunamis.

[1160] Have any of those stories changed your life?

[1161] Have any of them kind of made you take stock of things?

[1162] Or have any of them impacted you kind of permanently?

[1163] Yes, a lot of them have.

[1164] I mean, you know, I mean, that's tsunami.

[1165] Boy, you should have seen that place, Banda Achei.

[1166] in Indonesia, a city of, I don't know, half a million people and a wave comes in one day and in 10 minutes, it had killed 250 ,000 or more.

[1167] I don't think I knew it was that.

[1168] And it just like it was, is that the deadliest natural disaster in modern times?

[1169] It's got to be close if not.

[1170] 250 ,000.

[1171] Oh, crazy.

[1172] And then we arrive a day or two later and they're still getting aftershocks in the six and a half to seven range.

[1173] Oh my gosh.

[1174] You know, are there bodies everywhere?

[1175] There are bodies everywhere.

[1176] And the smell is pervasive and hangs in the air.

[1177] And they were collecting bodies from rubble and putting them in the back of dump trucks and taking them off to a, to mass graves and burning them.

[1178] Oh, my God.

[1179] And it looked for all the world like you were standing in, as I imagine it must have been, standing at the epicenter of the Hiroshima bomb.

[1180] Right.

[1181] Everything flattened, little bits of things sticking up here and there.

[1182] And then people who had survived this thing in stunned silence, all bent over, kind of looking around to see if they could discover anything to remind them of what used to be there or members of their family who were just gone like that.

[1183] Oh, my God.

[1184] And they'd never see again.

[1185] I think it just makes you realize how kind of small we all are and how lucky.

[1186] we are not to have gone through such a thing.

[1187] Yeah.

[1188] Yeah, that's a very bleak thing to witness in life.

[1189] Oh, man. And you know what got to me, though, that other countries would rush into help and would send their ships and their airplanes and their trucks and they're trying to do the right thing.

[1190] Yeah.

[1191] And I think all the people in those countries felt they were doing the right thing, as well as the people who were actually doing it.

[1192] This is no slam on any of them.

[1193] Sure, sure.

[1194] I'm just talking about through, my eyes when I see trucks of aid supplies coming through and many of them were gift from the people of the U .S. or gift from the people of and it's like fuck off, just bring the stuff.

[1195] Right, right.

[1196] Pat yourself on the back as you do it.

[1197] Yes.

[1198] Or as the guy from the United Nations was saying to me as we're leaving there, gratefully getting out of there and flying back to a place that wasn't destroyed.

[1199] Yes.

[1200] yet he said you know these these people they think they can send over grain or they can send over clothing or they can send over some product that they already export uh -huh and that it's going to help somehow where these are these the survivors of this are sophisticated people what they need is a $20 bill or they need they need somebody to come and hand them a wad of money and they can put their own lives back together just fine right interesting yeah yeah that's that's so that was something so so you've covered these these uh really profound events um and then certainly in the last 20 some years you've had to have been completely embarrassed that you're covering other stories have there been anywhere where you're like what the fuck am i doing here you make a call where it's like what you know why are we doing this yeah is there been any that you were just like this is really embarrassing that I'm here doing this.

[1201] Oh, I don't know.

[1202] I mean, you don't have hurt anyone's feelings, but it could just be your own personal embarrassment where you're like, I feel silly.

[1203] The answer to your question, every story could be potentially a wonderful story.

[1204] And it doesn't matter.

[1205] Right, right.

[1206] It could be a tiny thing.

[1207] It doesn't matter what it's about.

[1208] It really doesn't.

[1209] And the story is never about what it seems to be about.

[1210] It's always about the, as my colleague Dennis Murphy used to say, it's never about the murder.

[1211] it's always about the marriage.

[1212] Ah, uh -huh.

[1213] Or, but in other words, it's all the, it's all the ancillary stuff that leads from one place to another place that makes a thing interesting, whether you're, as, you know, there's a narrative to everything you do in life.

[1214] If you were to get up now and go over to your bathroom with no door on it and do some, there'd be the process where you're thinking about what you're going to do, you take an action to launch this process.

[1215] Then you, you, you know, you execute the execution stage.

[1216] And then there's the coda to your story when you're back in your chair kind of contemplating what you've done.

[1217] And that's what every story is about really.

[1218] Yes.

[1219] Yeah, most of my life seems to be back in the chair contemplating.

[1220] And only at that moment recognizing all the errors I made.

[1221] You have an incredible sense of humor about yourself that I admire because I'm very thin -skinned.

[1222] And are you You should speak up more to tell him when he's full of it.

[1223] That's true.

[1224] No, you really, you really do.

[1225] I hope that you recognize, like, my obsession with you and Kristen's is very genuine.

[1226] It's, there's no bullshit.

[1227] Also, I think it's hysterical you lean on everything.

[1228] That's also in the cake that is Keith Morrison.

[1229] It's one of the ingredients.

[1230] Also, you have sweet leather jackets.

[1231] We wear the same shoes.

[1232] I just took a picture of them.

[1233] You're inordinately hip, I'm going to say that.

[1234] But you have an actual method to your madness on.

[1235] this leaning, which is you hate doing stand -ups.

[1236] Is that what I read?

[1237] It feels awkward to you.

[1238] Yes.

[1239] And it gets up just to educate people.

[1240] What would normally do you someone do?

[1241] It's when the reporter stands in front of a camera and they moats for a while.

[1242] And sometimes you have to do that.

[1243] I mean, a lot of the material is on cable television.

[1244] Now there's nothing to cover it.

[1245] It's live and you're just bringing people up to date on things.

[1246] Of course, you have to sit in front of a camera and talk to it.

[1247] Yeah.

[1248] That's how it works.

[1249] But if you're doing a story where you're telling a whole story about a person, about a family, about a life, about things that happened in certain places where the moon was full, but the night was chill or something like that.

[1250] Yes, yes, yes.

[1251] He already made it better.

[1252] I know he did.

[1253] The correspondent, the person telling you the story is not the important thing.

[1254] The important thing is the story.

[1255] So my complaint was always, well, you know, everybody wants you to do a stand -up in the middle of us.

[1256] Why?

[1257] There's no need for it.

[1258] It doesn't help the story.

[1259] Right.

[1260] And often it's a method of self -aggrandizement that just is unseemly.

[1261] Yeah.

[1262] I'm going to put you through a humility workshop.

[1263] I think we could ratchet it up just a little, or rather maybe ratchet it down a little bit.

[1264] But having seen so many episodes of Dateline, one can.

[1265] can't help but start fearing that their loved one will murder them at some point, right?

[1266] This is a very natural assumption to make.

[1267] Watch it enough.

[1268] Doesn't it happen in most marriages?

[1269] Yes.

[1270] And so I wanted to head that off at the past.

[1271] I wanted to take that option off the table for her.

[1272] So I preemptively searched on her phone how to get away with murdering my husband.

[1273] And so if you were ever murdered, somebody would go look up her phone.

[1274] We would know immediately she did it, right?

[1275] So I've really kind of.

[1276] neutered that situation.

[1277] Do you think that was a pretty clever way to avoid getting murdered?

[1278] Which she found out about it.

[1279] But she's still there.

[1280] It's still in her search history.

[1281] You know, an FBI agent would still find that search.

[1282] It's probably the most famous husband evasive tactic that's been made in the last couple of years.

[1283] I, you know.

[1284] I will not choose the approach where I'm just nice and don't deserve to be killed.

[1285] That would be too simple.

[1286] You've lived a long time now.

[1287] God, yes.

[1288] You were the one that pointed that out, not me. And you've watched a lot of iterations of both media, cultural developments, huge technological developments.

[1289] Right.

[1290] Could you pinpoint something that you think is the most significant or that you're amazed that happened in your lifetime?

[1291] It would probably be hard, but.

[1292] Well, it would be hard, I suppose.

[1293] But maybe the saying that, I don't know who, it is sort of McLuhan -esque saying, we're creatures of our tools, they change us more than we change them.

[1294] So we had a certain kind of culture and society in the age before the Internet came along.

[1295] And now it's a different culture and society.

[1296] And we are different creatures.

[1297] Yeah.

[1298] We're wired differently.

[1299] We behave differently in different situations.

[1300] We have different kinds of leaders who have, you know, who are, who are regurgitating ideas that we all thought were buried 70 years ago, but here they come.

[1301] Because we have not because, and I think it's because of the fact that these new tools have created different ways of being human being.

[1302] And that's the huge headlines as far as I'm concerned.

[1303] Yeah, but it is impressive that you've navigated a lot of cultural change.

[1304] changes in the workplace, in everything, that you've managed to never go, well, this no longer makes sense to me, so I'm tapping out.

[1305] I think it's a testament to your flexibility, which is a pretty admirable quality, that you have continued to be fluid and functional within an ever -evolving system.

[1306] I think that becomes overwhelming for people.

[1307] Thank you.

[1308] You took that compliment as good as the last 10.

[1309] And I appreciate it.

[1310] Keith Morrison, it truly is a fanboy honor for me to have you come into the addict.

[1311] And I really thank you for crossing town in a rainy day.

[1312] Thank you.

[1313] And thank you for wearing the cover holes and the striped socks.

[1314] I did not know if you were going to challenge me to wrestling or whatever.

[1315] I just wanted to have all my bases covered.

[1316] It's been a pleasure.

[1317] Thank you.

[1318] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact -check.

[1319] Check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1320] Do you want to take a cleansing breath before we start?

[1321] Sure.

[1322] Whoa.

[1323] I don't feel like you expunge any dirtiness because I don't hear anything.

[1324] I, because I opened my mouth, so I didn't do what you did.

[1325] Could you, could you do one where you kind of get dirty?

[1326] I don't think so.

[1327] Okay.

[1328] Don't worry.

[1329] I let out a lot of negativity.

[1330] You did in toxicity?

[1331] Mm -hmm.

[1332] Okay.

[1333] F -A -C -H -E -C -K.

[1334] That's in honor of miniature mouse clubhouse.

[1335] It's the miniature mouse clubhouse.

[1336] Come inside and buy some facts.

[1337] The miniature mouse clubhouse.

[1338] Come inside.

[1339] Oh, toodles.

[1340] Oh, Tootles.

[1341] Do we have any facts, O Tootles?

[1342] Mm -hmm.

[1343] Peter O Tootles.

[1344] First, I want to tell a story.

[1345] Oh, great.

[1346] I love stories.

[1347] For our listeners, because it didn't come up in the episode.

[1348] But, and I wonder if it's come up on this podcast before.

[1349] But for Christmas, a few years ago.

[1350] Yeah.

[1351] Kristen and I came together to make an epic present for you.

[1352] in which we took little baby Delta.

[1353] She was so little back then.

[1354] Yeah.

[1355] She was a little honey -baked ham back then.

[1356] Yeah, she couldn't even talk.

[1357] She could say two or three words.

[1358] Yeah.

[1359] And it started because one day she was at work with you at Warner Brothers and she was what, like bossing people around with stopping around.

[1360] We went into the sound stage where we were going to record the score.

[1361] Yeah.

[1362] and mixed the movie and she walked in like such a boss and I was walking behind her and she was really walking around like she owned the place and then we started thinking what if there was a baby director like that was really good and she was a once in a lifetime baby director yeah and that was my joke I would say all the time she was a baby director you guys got together we got together and we made a movie about baby director full narrative it was it was it started out it was be like a two minute little iPhone video and turned into a 25 minute film film noir and we called in every favor possible we sure did all -star cast in this thing uh -huh it was a mockumentary about the rise and fall correct the making a baby director's second movie after after her first big hit by night night baby no the first movie that she made was called no -nigh -nigh.

[1363] No -night -night.

[1364] She's never wanted to go night -night.

[1365] So she used to say no -night -no -night.

[1366] Yeah, so that was her first film.

[1367] And you guys got Favro was in it.

[1368] Bradley Cooper was in it.

[1369] The president of Warner Brothers Greg Silverman was in it.

[1370] Yeah.

[1371] My agent was in it.

[1372] That's right.

[1373] We got.

[1374] I couldn't, every time there was a new scene, I would just start screaming, laughing that you got these people to participate in this.

[1375] But the craziest thing.

[1376] Do you want to say it?

[1377] No, you can say it.

[1378] The movie starts out.

[1379] You guys forced me to go to a screening room at Warner Brothers and I'm like, what is this thing that we're going to see?

[1380] And it starts off and it's baby director walking into a building and all of a sudden Keith Morrison's voice starts narrating like it's an episode of Dateline.

[1381] And I could not figure out what the fuck was happening.

[1382] I'm like, there is Delta.

[1383] Did they pull his audio from some existing thing?

[1384] And then I realized, no, he is talking about baby director.

[1385] Yep.

[1386] I was like, do you ever, have you heard me laugh at?

[1387] Never.

[1388] I was screaming laughing.

[1389] I thought maybe you were going to die.

[1390] I did too a little bit.

[1391] I kind of hoped you would.

[1392] That would be a good way to go, you know?

[1393] Absolutely.

[1394] But he wrote, he wrote the copy himself.

[1395] We, we asked if he wanted to or if we would, we could send him some stuff.

[1396] And he said he would take a stab on it.

[1397] And boy, did it deliver.

[1398] Yeah.

[1399] Yeah.

[1400] The level, the bar is so high for what he wrote.

[1401] Yeah.

[1402] He positioned it as like a Greek tragedy.

[1403] It was a, um, it was a labor of love for an audience of one, one person.

[1404] And you guys put so much work.

[1405] Oh my God.

[1406] It blows that whole sloth present way out of the water.

[1407] I get way too much credit for that.

[1408] This baby director was like the ultimate gift anyone's ever been given.

[1409] We spent four months on it.

[1410] Yeah.

[1411] And they were doing it all under my nose too because I was working on the lot at Warner Bros. directors directing and you guys were sneaking in while I was at lunch using my office using the golf cart just exploiting all the assets of Warner Brothers without a permit without paying a dime yeah it was brilliant it was a gorilla filmmaking at its best okay so Keith said what did they couldn't really remember what what anniversary date line just celebrated and it was we're coming up on the 27th season of Dayline.

[1412] That makes me upset that it's debuting on September 28th.

[1413] There would be so much more symmetry if they released it on September 27th.

[1414] You're right.

[1415] Or lied and said that it was the 28th anniversary.

[1416] Either outcome would work for me. You're right.

[1417] But celebrating 27 on the 28th doesn't work for me. So just a little bit too off.

[1418] It is.

[1419] Yeah, I understand that.

[1420] Disjointed.

[1421] So full disclosure, we recorded this.

[1422] a few months back.

[1423] Yeah, we were waiting for the premiere of the show to come out.

[1424] Yes, and yes.

[1425] We like to try to reward people's time.

[1426] Sure.

[1427] And they come and donate it to us by promoting their project.

[1428] Yeah.

[1429] It doesn't make much sense if four months ago we told you to watch the kick, the season premiere on September 28th.

[1430] You would have forgotten.

[1431] That's right.

[1432] We did it for you guys, really.

[1433] You're welcome.

[1434] But you said Chris, I don't know, I don't remember why you said this, but you said Kristen is 37 and she probably was at the time that we recorded that but she has since turned 38 Kristen Bell's 38 that's one fact she might not have thought you was necessary I can't help it I have to check every fact you're right to maintain your integrity that's right silver spoons came up again and I was going to find the essay again but it's okay because if you want to listen to that you want to hear the say you can just go to the Joel McHale fact check because we do talk about it in the Joel McHale fact check.

[1435] Okay, and I read it out loud there.

[1436] Okay, was there more combat in Vietnam than World War II?

[1437] Because you said there was.

[1438] Well, hold on a second.

[1439] That's not exactly what I said.

[1440] I said the soldiers on a one -year tour saw more combat than World War II soldiers saw in a two -year deployment.

[1441] That's not to say there was more or less cumulative combat.

[1442] It's just how much combat did your average soldier witness on their tour?

[1443] So I just want to be real clear about that.

[1444] The average infantry man in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years.

[1445] The average infantry man in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year.

[1446] Well, there you go.

[1447] Thanks for the mobility of the helicopter.

[1448] There you go.

[1449] So.

[1450] Okay, good.

[1451] That stood up to what?

[1452] I thought maybe we were just going to say if there was more combat in World War II.

[1453] Nope.

[1454] On killing is by David Grossman.

[1455] You've mentioned that book a few times if people want to look into it.

[1456] It's called On Killing the Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society.

[1457] So you can do that.

[1458] Fascinating book.

[1459] Yeah.

[1460] Recommended to me by my buddy Duffy.

[1461] It was a Navy SEAL.

[1462] Oh, cool.

[1463] Well, I have a sad fact.

[1464] I'm killing.

[1465] Killing.

[1466] I have a sad fact to correct.

[1467] Uh -oh.

[1468] Here we go.

[1469] It is sad, for real.

[1470] Okay.

[1471] Also, at this time they recorded this, Barton was still with us.

[1472] Oh, okay.

[1473] And you referred to your stepdad, your current, you say my current stepdad.

[1474] stepdad, and he is past.

[1475] Yes.

[1476] So he's still your stepdad, of course, but just so people know that.

[1477] Yeah, is he?

[1478] Is that what we would say?

[1479] He is.

[1480] Yeah, I'd say my dad.

[1481] Yeah.

[1482] Yeah, my step.

[1483] Yeah, okay.

[1484] Yeah, okay.

[1485] Yeah, I wouldn't say when I was a kid, my former dad would pick me up in his Corvette.

[1486] When I was a kid, my old dad.

[1487] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1488] I didn't think that through, though.

[1489] Yeah, that is.

[1490] That is Not how it works.

[1491] You know, but it's because you would never refer to one of your old stepdads as your stepdad.

[1492] One of your previous stepdad.

[1493] My ex -stepdad.

[1494] Exactly.

[1495] Yeah, I wouldn't say my stepdad, Greg.

[1496] Right.

[1497] Yeah.

[1498] So you'd say my ex -step dad or my old stepdad.

[1499] Yeah.

[1500] But Barton is your stepdad.

[1501] That's right.

[1502] Yeah.

[1503] Okay.

[1504] Is Young Street the longest street in the world?

[1505] You said it was.

[1506] Until 1999, the Guinness Book of World Records repeated the popular misconception that it was 1 ,896 kilometers long, and thus the longest street in the world.

[1507] But this was due to a conflation of Young Street with the rest of Ontario's Highway 11.

[1508] So.

[1509] But it did say it in the Guinness Booker.

[1510] Today, today no sense.

[1511] section of Young Street is a provincial, am I saying that right?

[1512] Yeah, I believe so.

[1513] Like I would know.

[1514] That's true.

[1515] The Guinness Book of World Records no longer lists Young Street as the longest street in the world and has not chosen a replacement street but cites the Pan American Highway as the world's longest motorable road.

[1516] Oh, interesting.

[1517] How long is that prick?

[1518] I think that's what people race the Pan America race down.

[1519] This is a race I want to do in my lifetime.

[1520] It's all vintage cars and they race through public roads in Mexico and then they shut down little sections and those sections are timed and then they open it back up.

[1521] So it's like a rally and timed racing.

[1522] It's just like an eight -day party.

[1523] You roll into these towns and your vintage cars and everyone's dancing and celebrating drinking tequila.

[1524] It seems really fun.

[1525] Oh, that does sound fun.

[1526] Yeah.

[1527] Okay.

[1528] The deadliest natural disaster.

[1529] We wondered if it was the tsunami.

[1530] The deadliest disaster since 1900 was the 1931 China floods.

[1531] Ooh.

[1532] 800 ,000 people?

[1533] Couldn't tell you.

[1534] But it was the deadliest.

[1535] And the Indian Ocean tsunami in 2004 was the third on the list after the 1970 Cyclone in Bangladesh.

[1536] Oh, really?

[1537] A cyclone.

[1538] Yeah.

[1539] Isn't a cyclone, a hurricane we figured out?

[1540] Oh, I thought a cyclone was a tornado.

[1541] Fuck, I don't know.

[1542] I think it's a tornado.

[1543] I think it's a hurricane.

[1544] Holy fuck.

[1545] Rob just came in and $3 .7 million for the China's flood.

[1546] That's a lot of people.

[1547] Yeah.

[1548] A thousand.

[1549] They weren't reported.

[1550] They didn't know how to count back then in 1931 for poor things.

[1551] That's common though for the.

[1552] these countries back in the data under report stuff because they were trying to maintain their image abroad and they would fib about stuff the opposite of getting attention by saying you're sick yeah they're not sympathy seekers no yeah good on you china um okay we want to tell us if a cyclone is a tornado or a hurricane before we move on rob Rob.

[1553] Monica's so threatened right now.

[1554] Rob?

[1555] Wobby, Is a cyclone?

[1556] I think a cyclone's a hurricane.

[1557] I think it's a tornado.

[1558] Okay.

[1559] We'll see who's right.

[1560] How much do you want to bet?

[1561] Minnie Mouse versus what's the big, ugly guy who he's always cheating.

[1562] You know, he's got a name like Chad or something and Mickey and the Roadster Racers.

[1563] There's a guy who cheats all the time.

[1564] He's like the biggest guy.

[1565] I'd say that's who I am and then you're miniature mouse.

[1566] I don't know about.

[1567] A cyclone may be referred to as a typhoon or a hurricane, so I am unfortunately.

[1568] Is it a typhoon sometimes referred to as a tornado?

[1569] Is it a three -step thing?

[1570] No, no, no, no. A tornado is a much smaller storm that starts over land.

[1571] I know, and is and continues.

[1572] I think.

[1573] I think hurricanes come offshore.

[1574] Water, yes, they do.

[1575] And cyclones.

[1576] And typhoons.

[1577] Fuck.

[1578] You're really been out of shape about this.

[1579] I'm, I don't, what, what sight?

[1580] Ah.

[1581] What side are you getting that from?

[1582] A cyclone has always been a tornado my whole life.

[1583] You know what you're thinking of is a, a twister, no. Hold on, hold on.

[1584] I think cyclone is a shape.

[1585] And so a tornado can take on the shape of a cyclone.

[1586] But I think a storm that's called a cyclone.

[1587] I think that's maybe where you're, in some level, you could call a tornado a cyclone, but I don't think you can call it cyclone a tornado.

[1588] Does that make any sense?

[1589] I'm out on a limb right now.

[1590] I've waited out in the deep water.

[1591] Tropical storm, David.

[1592] Oh, cyclone is.

[1593] So, right, I was just dead right again.

[1594] So a tornado could be a cyclone described as a cyclone, but a cyclone could not be described as a tornado.

[1595] Wait, but a cyclone is any kind of tropical windstorm is that you said?

[1596] Circular.

[1597] Oh, so, okay, now, now.

[1598] Okay, this makes so much sense.

[1599] So much more sense.

[1600] It's a technically, which I am, I abide by the technical rules.

[1601] Technically a cyclone is any kind of circular storm.

[1602] I want to remind you that your initial statement was a cyclone is a tornado.

[1603] Yeah.

[1604] So technically it is.

[1605] A tornado could be a cyclone, but a cyclone can't be a tornado.

[1606] A cyclone could be, because a cyclone technically is any circular storm.

[1607] So a cyclone could be a hurricane or a tornado.

[1608] No, you would need to find on the internet a statement that said a tornado could be a tropical storm.

[1609] No, no, no, no, no, no. It's saying a cyclone is the overall term technically.

[1610] Now we know now they've changed it.

[1611] Okay, before.

[1612] A cyclone is the technical term for any circular storm.

[1613] So it's the overall, it's the umbrella, cyclone under.

[1614] Right.

[1615] Again, so you could describe a tornado as a cyclone.

[1616] Because a tornado is a circular storm.

[1617] But a cyclone in Bangladesh could never be described as a tornado.

[1618] And that was your first statement is that a cyclone hit Bangladesh.

[1619] which you think is a tornado.

[1620] And I said, no, it's not a tornado.

[1621] Do you see my distinction?

[1622] I hope that somewhere in America, a man was driving a truck with a gun rack behind his head, and he pulled the rifle off of the gun rack and shot his stereo listening to this debate.

[1623] What?

[1624] I stand by my fact.

[1625] That it could be a tornado down in Bangladesh?

[1626] Yeah.

[1627] Oh, okay.

[1628] I'll go along with that.

[1629] I'm trying to think Bangladesh.

[1630] Bangladesh.

[1631] On the water?

[1632] Yeah, I just can't.

[1633] I guess it's on the water, yeah.

[1634] They have all those ship graves there.

[1635] People just take their huge ships and just desert them in Bangladesh.

[1636] And then all these kids and everyone, they go and they take parts out and try to make scrap out of them.

[1637] Oh, really?

[1638] It's a pretty narily scene in the beach where they park them all.

[1639] There's like a 60 minutes on it.

[1640] Well, if they're on the water, then it probably is a hurricane.

[1641] Unfortunately.

[1642] Okay, he said some quote, and he couldn't remember who said it.

[1643] He said the quote was, we're creatures of our tools.

[1644] They change us more than we changed them.

[1645] But the real quote is, what?

[1646] Oh, I thought you were laughing.

[1647] Who laughed just now?

[1648] Nobody, you've gone paranoid.

[1649] No, I'm not.

[1650] You laughed.

[1651] I really didn't do anything.

[1652] I mean, I'll say it laughed.

[1653] I love you.

[1654] You don't have to lie to love me. Okay.

[1655] Well, you just, you've grown a little paranoid.

[1656] No one did anything.

[1657] And then you looked up like we were snickering down your back.

[1658] I heard a noise.

[1659] You were.

[1660] Stop talking about me. Okay.

[1661] The real quote is, men have become the tools of their tools.

[1662] And that's Henry David Thoreau.

[1663] Oh, on Walden's Pond.

[1664] Yes, Walden.

[1665] Yes.

[1666] I used to love David Thore when I was in high school.

[1667] He was one of the only poets I like because he coined the marching to the beat of a, Your own drum.

[1668] He said it differently.

[1669] HDT.

[1670] HDT, what's that?

[1671] His name.

[1672] Oh, Henry David Thoreau.

[1673] Yeah, my mom was really obsessed with him too.

[1674] Yeah, she said that when she came on here.

[1675] Toro.

[1676] That's all.

[1677] And the actor, Justin Thoreau, first time I met him, I said.

[1678] That's his dad?

[1679] It's his son.

[1680] Oh.

[1681] His son is Henry David Thore.

[1682] Oh, my gosh.

[1683] But my first question to him was, are you in some way related to Henry David Thore?

[1684] And he actually is.

[1685] He is?

[1686] Yeah, he's like, I want to say he was his like, great -great -uncle or something.

[1687] No wonder he's a skilled writer.

[1688] I wish I could be related to a thorough.

[1689] Well, you and I have talked about this.

[1690] We differ on this.

[1691] People who are interested in their genealogy to find out like famous people in their history.

[1692] Yeah.

[1693] That has no appeal to me. And it does to you.

[1694] Yeah.

[1695] That's one of the things we're different about.

[1696] I would feel special if I had that in blood.

[1697] Yeah.

[1698] And I was like, I wouldn't feel the least bit special.

[1699] I didn't accomplish that.

[1700] I didn't write on Walden's Pond.

[1701] It's not even on Walden's Pond.

[1702] It's just Walden's Pond.

[1703] Yeah.

[1704] Or it's just Walden.

[1705] So how could I take any pride in that?

[1706] I didn't do that.

[1707] Because genetics are real.

[1708] So things do get passed down.

[1709] So if someone is a profound, you know, a profound person in society figure.

[1710] You're going to inherit their status?

[1711] You're going to inherit whatever made them profound.

[1712] Well.

[1713] Well, unless, no, but none of us would agree if your grandpa was a Holocaust denier that you're somehow guilty of that.

[1714] You just go, I would.

[1715] There's nothing to do.

[1716] Maybe.

[1717] Depending.

[1718] But we would agree that no one should take on the sins of their grandparents.

[1719] So why on earth would you be able to take on the accomplishments of your grandparents?

[1720] It's just like you have nothing to do with them.

[1721] But it's just pride.

[1722] It's okay to have pride.

[1723] I don't think so.

[1724] And that kind of thing.

[1725] Yeah, right.

[1726] You have so much pride over your family.

[1727] No, it's good to have pride in your own accomplishments.

[1728] You have pride over your mom's accomplishments.

[1729] I wouldn't call it pride.

[1730] I have admiration and respect.

[1731] But it's not my accomplishment.

[1732] But you have pride that you come from a hardworking person.

[1733] Gangster?

[1734] Yeah.

[1735] You're proud of that.

[1736] No, I don't feel like I started a leg up or like I feel better.

[1737] about myself because she was so awesome.

[1738] It just, I was like, I still have to do everything for me to feel awesome.

[1739] Yeah, it's not a shortcut.

[1740] It's not saying like you automatically get to the next level, but it's, it's.

[1741] I think this is your cast system speaking through, your privilege.

[1742] How dare you?

[1743] My parents were unmentionables.

[1744] Didn't you say your grandparents?

[1745] No, you said your grandma, they're from a very high cast.

[1746] Highcastle.

[1747] They are from a high cast.

[1748] Yeah.

[1749] Not to brag, again, again, happened again.

[1750] Does it feel, do you feel prideful when you think of what a high cast she was from?

[1751] No, I think that's disgusting.

[1752] Right.

[1753] But that's, but if they were, if they were like Nelson Mandela, I'd be, I'd have so much pride.

[1754] They haven't done anything like that.

[1755] You would?

[1756] I have a lot of pride.

[1757] Actually, I have a lot of pride that my, my dad.

[1758] No, I have no pride.

[1759] I'm just kidding.

[1760] But I have a lot of pride that my grandfather is a biologist and had to do all these studies and genetics and is brilliant.

[1761] I have a lot of pride in that.

[1762] Yeah.

[1763] I have admiration and pride.

[1764] Like I'm proud that that is where you come from.

[1765] Yeah.

[1766] Yeah.

[1767] You don't feel like, well, then you need to accomplish something amazing.

[1768] I think it's even cooler to come from like seventh generation incarcerated parents and then you go to Harvard.

[1769] That's like a much cooler thing.

[1770] Sure.

[1771] Underdog story.

[1772] Yeah.

[1773] I love that too.

[1774] There we go.

[1775] But I, um, you get what you get, you know?

[1776] And then you don't complain.

[1777] You get what you get and you don't get upset.

[1778] Yeah, you get what you get upset.

[1779] So you have to find a way to be proud of either thing.

[1780] Yeah.

[1781] Like I have a great uncle that murdered another one of the uncles.

[1782] You love that.

[1783] You probably do love that.

[1784] Well, yes, because it makes it that much more impressive what my grandma Yolus did.

[1785] And then my dad and then me. You also think it's cool to get in.

[1786] To murder your brother?

[1787] Yeah.

[1788] I think you like this.

[1789] But we would go visit our great grandma, Han Chol.

[1790] And this Cal who had committed the homicide, he'd hang out in his tidy whitties and he'd have a pistol with him at all the times.

[1791] It was fucking scary because it was also a farm way up north Michigan.

[1792] It was like if Cal wanted to shoot us, it'd be years before anyone figured out.

[1793] I mean, you were out in the middle of nowhere.

[1794] There were chickens run around everywhere.

[1795] And here's Uncle Cal and his tight whites in a 38 pistol.

[1796] Yeah.

[1797] This is a very uncomfortable situation.

[1798] You know what this reminds me of.

[1799] Yes.

[1800] Hillbillology.

[1801] Yeah.

[1802] That's how I know.

[1803] That's how I know.

[1804] We should have that author on just a debate.

[1805] I would love to have him on and I would not.

[1806] I would be on his side.

[1807] I know you would because you didn't have Uncle Cal. If you had Uncle Cal, it would read it would read phony to you.

[1808] I guarantee it.

[1809] But I can have him on and debate it.

[1810] I'd love, I'd like to do that.

[1811] I also can, I can recommend the book.

[1812] I'm not saying don't read the book.

[1813] Everyone who's read it loves it.

[1814] I personally felt like the story.

[1815] weren't firsthand, that they were thirdhand.

[1816] That's my, that is my critique of it.

[1817] Yeah.

[1818] And that's just me. It's just a big, it's a big thing to say that.

[1819] I don't think it's that big of a thing.

[1820] If you know something, if you're an expert at something, you can tell when you're hearing a non -expert talking about it.

[1821] But you are an expert in your life, in your life story.

[1822] You can't say you're an expert on everyone's life story.

[1823] I'm not.

[1824] I would say I'm an expert on drunk adults being violent.

[1825] I'd say I'm an expert on that.

[1826] Let's just put it this way.

[1827] Like we always talk about boyhood on this podcast.

[1828] Link later told the true story.

[1829] Okay.

[1830] There have been fake.

[1831] His story or somebody's.

[1832] He told a very specific story that resonated with a lot of people.

[1833] And it had a lot of themes that crossover.

[1834] in that world.

[1835] It was very clear that whether it was the person who wrote it or directed it.

[1836] Yeah.

[1837] That that person had actually had that experience.

[1838] That was tangible.

[1839] Mm -hmm.

[1840] And I know it's true.

[1841] And I would be able to, and when reading that book, I don't get the boyhood feeling.

[1842] I don't say, oh, he was in that situation.

[1843] I go, he heard about that situation.

[1844] situation.

[1845] Yeah.

[1846] Yeah.

[1847] I stand by that.

[1848] Okay.

[1849] Maybe he'll want to fight me on here.

[1850] I hope.

[1851] Maybe there'll be the solution.

[1852] Him and I fist fight.

[1853] No. What if in my mind, whoever won that fist fight won the argument?

[1854] I would not be surprised if that's what you thought.

[1855] All right.

[1856] Well, listen, I hate when I lose you in these things.

[1857] We start out really good with F -A -C -T -H -E -C -C -E -C -C.

[1858] C -E -K, and then I lose you.

[1859] What do you mean you lost me?

[1860] Well, I lost you.

[1861] Now you're mad at me about the hillbilly elegy.

[1862] I'm not mad at you, but I, but I, I am not mad at you, but I. You get frustrated.

[1863] I get frustrated that you sometimes.

[1864] Or no at all.

[1865] No. That you make your, that you can't possibly, there's no way in the whole world that somebody could have had a similar experience as you, and it's a bit different, and it comes across a bit different.

[1866] Yeah, what I'm saying is if someone tells a story where a drunk adult with a history of violence takes four steps that I recognize as the four predictable steps, and then the fifth step is completely antithetical to what that person would then do next, is the same in my opinion as being a chemist who is reading the account of someone mixing hydrogen, then peroxide, then this, then that, and then they're along the right.

[1867] And then the fifth thing they add, it turns blue and you go, no, that's not what happens.

[1868] But it's not science.

[1869] People's, people are not as regimented as that.

[1870] I think it's way more predictable than you do.

[1871] Yeah, I don't.

[1872] Yeah.

[1873] I just don't.

[1874] And that's okay.

[1875] We have, yeah, because they all went the same way.

[1876] even if the people were different and the houses were different when a man with pride who is violent is on tilt things happen they happen the same way for every single guy that is a violent drunk guy on full tilt if the people around him are going to be victims and he can get away with it it happens I've watched it happen with dozens of different people all with the same outcome so I don't think that because it was in Ohio that yeah you've seen it in a in a particular environment I'm not just talking about one person I'm talking about many people.

[1877] But in one area?

[1878] Michigan, sure.

[1879] In your area in Michigan.

[1880] Well, no, many areas in Michigan.

[1881] County fairs in northern Michigan.

[1882] Livonia, where my grandparents lived, Sturgis were my grand, you know, 200 miles away.

[1883] So, yeah, maybe it's specific to Michigan, but I don't think so.

[1884] I think it's specific to white, violent, prideful males.

[1885] We've just also, you know, I've made this comparison before that if I'm reading Mindy's book or reading something that Aziz has written about his life and his family and those things or any of these books, I don't like balk at something that doesn't match my perception of of growing up to Indian parents or anything like that or all of that.

[1886] That to me is just that person's experience in that circumstance.

[1887] That circumstance is the same as mine, but the experience is not guaranteed to be the same.

[1888] Yes, your experience at the eye of the storm will be completely different and unique to you.

[1889] I agree with you.

[1890] But if you tell me that you take a. a grizzly bear out of a cage and you put five people with blood and meat around their neck and then you hit the grizzly bear with a baseball bat, I can tell you what the grizzly bear is going to do.

[1891] The grizzly bear is to me the variable that doesn't change.

[1892] Now, the people sitting in the circle with the meat strapped around their neck, they could have any number of interpretations of what that experience was like.

[1893] And yes, I couldn't argue whether they were scared or they had empathy or they felt like they were providing a service or the bears of bully, all those things, which is Aziz's perspective, Mindy's perspective, your perspective, those things are all completely subjective.

[1894] But what a grizzly bear is going to do is not, in my opinion, very subjective.

[1895] We can predict what a grizzly bear does.

[1896] Well, two things.

[1897] One, I have to disagree based on my parents.

[1898] My parents are not doing what the grizzly bear parents did often in these stories.

[1899] Sure.

[1900] so so this idea that there's like a expected outcome every time and that and it there would be an expected outcome but they did not follow that yeah but again if the guy's story is yeah the grizzly bear got up on his hind legs it growled at us then it then it swiped at us and then it laid down his back and rolled around and we all pet it when it gets to that point I'm like that didn't happen I'm sorry that you guys didn't didn't pet the grizzly bear, it didn't roll on its back.

[1901] And I'll go even further, these situations where a man is enraged, what makes a person a person, a human is the frontal lobe, is the part of their brain that is thinking about the future, making decisions with empathy and sympathy and all these things and behaving the way we want people in society to.

[1902] But a drunk lunatic on a rage bender is fully mid -brain thinking.

[1903] Their brain that they're using at that point is as primitive as the grizzly bears.

[1904] So all that frontal cortex stuff is offline, and I think they're incredibly predictive.

[1905] Okay.

[1906] Is just why I think it's different than like you're at dinner, your parents are both immigrants from India.

[1907] What's the outcome?

[1908] Well, there's so many variables because there's identity and frontal cognition and projecting into the future, and there's a million varieties.

[1909] But I would say the same thing about any human in any circumstance.

[1910] Yeah.

[1911] And I would argue once again on killing, which you just brought up, once your heart rate is 170 and your adrenaline reaches a certain point, your frontal lobe doesn't work.

[1912] You're all midbrain thinking, which is what that whole book on killing is about.

[1913] So once you reach a state, nobody's thinking with their frontal lobe.

[1914] It just can't happen.

[1915] So do you think that every person who has Alzheimer's, behaves the same way.

[1916] No. Because the same degenerative thing is happening to their brain.

[1917] People with Alzheimer's are not relegated to mid -brain thinking.

[1918] That's not what's happening.

[1919] But I'm just talking about their brain is degenerating in the exact same way, all of these people.

[1920] Well, I'm asking sincerely, is it?

[1921] I don't know that that's how it works.

[1922] I don't know if it attacks the exact same part of everyone's brain or if it's like in different spots in different people or what.

[1923] I don't know.

[1924] I guess I don't know.

[1925] But you could, you could propose the hypothetical to me as if Alzheimer's patients all end up with simply midbrain thinking, I would say, yeah, their behavior would get really predictable.

[1926] And I think it does.

[1927] That's why there are indicators of Alzheimer's.

[1928] There are predictable elements and qualities, but that doesn't mean.

[1929] mean that every single person is going to to behave the exact same way because of that.

[1930] I just, I guess, you know, for someone like you who prides himself in seeing and not seeing things in such a black and white manner in life, that it feels, it feels, it feels, um, it feels, um, feels very binary.

[1931] Definitive for me. Yeah.

[1932] Yeah.

[1933] Yeah.

[1934] And I maybe I can't escape my history, but I have seen a hundred guys get violent.

[1935] And I don't think that those stories in that book rang true from those experiences I had.

[1936] I just don't.

[1937] Yeah.

[1938] Okay.

[1939] Yeah.

[1940] That's okay.

[1941] He's probably an amazing guy.

[1942] I would like him.

[1943] The book is very well written.

[1944] I recommend to people read it.

[1945] Yeah.

[1946] didn't find it to be.

[1947] Yeah.

[1948] Didn't ring true to me. Yeah.

[1949] Yeah.

[1950] All right.

[1951] Just like if I wrote a book about LA gangs, the experience of being in an LA gang, someone who was really in a, in the Crips, they would read it and they'd go, this dude wasn't.

[1952] They would be able to tell I wasn't.

[1953] Doesn't matter how much research I would do on it.

[1954] Yeah.

[1955] I don't think and that's exactly the I, you're accusing him of doing that.

[1956] Yes, I am.

[1957] That is a huge accusation.

[1958] I know it is.

[1959] I don't, that's not fair.

[1960] No, it's by the way.

[1961] this exact same thing happened and I was dead right.

[1962] I read million little pieces, I read million little pieces, which I loved.

[1963] It's a great book.

[1964] And so is my friend Leonard, the follow -up.

[1965] I read million little pieces.

[1966] I loved it.

[1967] It's a great book.

[1968] And I said, that's bullshit.

[1969] That is not, an addict would not possibly do the things that he just didn't have the outcome he have.

[1970] I'm sorry.

[1971] I've seen 1 ,100 people try to get sober and knowing what he said about himself and how he used, there's no way that that happened.

[1972] And I knew it on a cellular level and everyone that was sober knew it.

[1973] And everyone who was not said, no, that was his experience.

[1974] And then come to find out he had to admit that that wasn't true.

[1975] He had made that up.

[1976] You can know when something's not true.

[1977] Yeah, but no, because it's a huge accusation on somebody's integrity.

[1978] You don't even know this person.

[1979] You've never spoken to them in your life.

[1980] You're taking one passage and deciding a, you're giving a moral evaluation on a human.

[1981] But it wasn't wrong with million little pieces.

[1982] Okay.

[1983] So it wasn't wrong one time.

[1984] Well, but everyone that thought that was correct.

[1985] That's fine.

[1986] And Stephen King wrote this great piece in the back of Entertainment Weekly.

[1987] I encourage people to find it.

[1988] What is his name who wrote million little pieces?

[1989] Do you guys remember that guy's name?

[1990] James something.

[1991] Yeah, James.

[1992] By the way, I feel so bad for him that he was exposed as having James Frey.

[1993] I feel so bad that James Frey was outed like that on Oprah, and I don't agree with any of that.

[1994] I don't think he deserved any of that.

[1995] I think he wrote a beautiful book, and it's awesome.

[1996] But I knew it was bullshit.

[1997] And Stephen King wrote this great thing in the back of Entertainment Weekly, a one -page thing about we addicts always knew it was fake.

[1998] And we just do.

[1999] You can say we didn't.

[2000] You can say it's unfair.

[2001] You can say all this stuff.

[2002] that no his his experience could have been unique you can say all that but we knew we knew from page 10 and we were right and so for me I have the same feeling reading hillbilly allergy that I had when I read million little pieces and I just have that feeling and I stand by it because I was vindicated the first time it didn't work for me on a cellular level and this one doesn't either okay all right did it help when i at least parallel with that book no from you to for you to see my point of view no i know that that happened and that's already been proven to all be true so that's a set to me i think it's it's irresponsible to be making a public accusation about somebody's moral integrity i think that's very irresponsible and i think what you said earlier about James Frey.

[2003] I think what you said earlier about about somebody saying, you know, reading that people are saying that you've had plastic surgery.

[2004] When you know that's not true and they can say, I know what plastic surgery looks like.

[2005] I've seen it.

[2006] I know for a fact.

[2007] That's what it looks like.

[2008] It's not okay to do that.

[2009] It's not okay for that person to say you've had plastic surgery.

[2010] So we're dead clear.

[2011] I'm not slandering that author.

[2012] I don't, I'm not even saying that.

[2013] What I am saying is that the book doesn't ring true to me. No, that is not, that is not how those things go down.

[2014] That's fine to say it doesn't ring true to you.

[2015] That's not, you've said some other stuff in this conversation that is more defamatory.

[2016] Yeah.

[2017] I mean, again, I go back to the James Freighting.

[2018] I knew it in every attic knew it.

[2019] So, and you would have said, I can't say that then.

[2020] You would have said, you can't say that that's not really what.

[2021] happened with his sobriety.

[2022] And I'd say, okay, but I know it's not.

[2023] I just know that that's not how it works.

[2024] I know how it works through a ton of, talk about 10 ,000 hours, 100 ,000 hours.

[2025] I know that's not how it works.

[2026] So there has to also be room in this world for conviction, when you know.

[2027] Addiction is more scientific than the culture of pride.

[2028] I don't know.

[2029] Yeah, it is.

[2030] There's more science involved in addiction in what's happening in your brain chemistry and all of these things, then then the experience of living in a place.

[2031] That's far, there's far more subjectivity to that.

[2032] Yeah, but the premise of the book is, is, is elaborating on how the culture of pride works, how it started in Tennessee and Kentucky, how it then migrated north to Ohio, which had also migrated north to Michigan.

[2033] We know that comes from Scottish and Irish settlers who herded animals and they had undefined boundaries and that's why they had to stand their ground and fight these are all things that have been very well studied and we understand the causality and why it's happening and now when you're just talking about what the result of the culture of pride is and some of it is just not ringing true I don't really know what to say about that okay yeah this is one of many you and I will probably for years disagree about it.

[2034] Probably.

[2035] I respect you as an adversary and I appreciate your conflicting thoughts always.

[2036] I respect you as well.

[2037] All right.

[2038] I love you.

[2039] You, Minnie Mouse.

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