Jane Fonda

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Rather, I'm joined by the Duchess of Duluth.

[2] Hello.

[3] I was just in my royal city.

[4] You are.

[5] Well, appropriate timing, because you were there around the coronation of...

[6] I was.

[7] Yeah.

[8] It seems like all royals returned to their home base that weekend.

[9] It's true.

[10] And receive the fanfare they are...

[11] They've so rightly earned.

[12] Oh, yes.

[13] Birthright.

[14] This was a very fun episode.

[15] Because we don't ever go to someone's house to interview them.

[16] Almost even as a policy.

[17] We've had a couple of good offers from really good guests.

[18] But ultimately, I'm like, I don't want to be in someone else's invite.

[19] It changes the dynamic.

[20] It does.

[21] It dramatically changes the dynamic.

[22] But this guest.

[23] It was worth it.

[24] For a myriad of reasons.

[25] Her age primarily, because we have this enormous staircase.

[26] We were worried about it.

[27] Turns out completely pointless worry because I then ended up going up and down about six staircases with her, and she outpaced me. So it was all for not, but that was the motivation.

[28] But at any rate, I was delighted to go to Jane Fonda's house to interview her.

[29] Wasn't that fun?

[30] All three of us went.

[31] So fun.

[32] You liked it too, Wobby Wob?

[33] It was blessed.

[34] Yeah.

[35] Get to see how she lives was really fun.

[36] Very cool.

[37] Really, really, really awesome interview.

[38] You just can't even get into her story.

[39] In fact, we owe her like a 10 -part.

[40] Maybe our first 10 -parter.

[41] Sure.

[42] But also, you could read her memoirs.

[43] Yeah, we could do that, but I'd rather sit in her living room.

[44] I'll buy it, but I'd rather sit and get it from her, the horse's ass.

[45] You can read it on the podcast?

[46] I could read it out on the podcast, unauthorized audio book free.

[47] Maybe for the fact check.

[48] Yeah, maybe I'll read it there.

[49] But I really enjoyed it, and she's such a fucking powerhouse of a woman.

[50] And she has a new movie out now, a sequel to an incredibly loved and successful movie.

[51] book club.

[52] It's sequel.

[53] Book Club.

[54] The next chapter is here.

[55] And it's even better than the last one.

[56] I finally figured out the screener when I talked to her.

[57] I couldn't get this link to work, but I watch it.

[58] It's phenomenal.

[59] The fact that they're all together way more in this one is really fun.

[60] And she just, by and large, both of our conclusions, I think, afterwards was, can't keep up with her.

[61] No way.

[62] No way.

[63] She's on another level.

[64] It's crazy.

[65] She's truly.

[66] Yeah.

[67] She is a phenom.

[68] We loved her.

[69] Yeah, because I was just around grandparents.

[70] one is younger than her.

[71] And they were real grandparenty, right?

[72] Yeah.

[73] I was like, how is she able to run 10 empire?

[74] Yeah.

[75] And just be so articulate still.

[76] Yeah.

[77] She's on fire.

[78] Well, I love her.

[79] I'm in love with her.

[80] Please enjoy Jane Fonda.

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[83] Or you can listen to.

[84] and for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[85] So do you always go to the people's houses?

[86] Never happen.

[87] Never happened.

[88] I'm happy to.

[89] I haven't seen you in a long time.

[90] I haven't seen you since our movie.

[91] I was curious if you remembered me. Because we had such a small little window together.

[92] Yes, and you never talked to me. That is not true.

[93] I thought you didn't like me. That is not true.

[94] And in fact, my publicist saw that this was coming up.

[95] And he said, do you remember how hard you were hitting on Jane Fonda at the Toronto.

[96] That is not true.

[97] I hit on you as much as a married man can hit on you.

[98] Let's say that.

[99] And I believe it.

[100] Everybody is doing podcasts.

[101] Is it hard?

[102] Oh, no. I love it.

[103] This is ironically what I think I was born to do.

[104] Really?

[105] Yes, because I figured out with the help of a friend.

[106] I looked at Monica, but it wasn't Monica.

[107] She was there.

[108] Adam Grant.

[109] I isolated my very favorite part of making movies is hanging.

[110] around Video Village and talking with other actors.

[111] Like, that's what I'm in it for.

[112] The downtime where we shoot the shit and I find out everything about you and why you moved to L .A. That's what I love.

[113] See, and we never did that, you and I. And I said to Debbie upstairs, I said, he didn't like me. Oh, my God, is that?

[114] Hold on a second.

[115] Never talk to me. This is amazing.

[116] Uh -uh.

[117] This is the power of memory and our perception of things.

[118] Yeah.

[119] Because I have text evidence that I was observed giving you my full attention.

[120] Okay.

[121] That makes me happy.

[122] We were in a movie called This Is Where I Leave You, and we had no scenes together.

[123] No. To be honest with you, I was very excited I was in a movie with you.

[124] Like, that was a very flattering thing.

[125] So I was very aware you were in it.

[126] I was very excited about that.

[127] And then when we went to promote it at the Toronto Film Festival, you and I were backstage quite a bit.

[128] And I only talked to you.

[129] And there were some good options.

[130] It's a large class.

[131] Okay, I'm glad.

[132] Okay.

[133] Right?

[134] We had Tina Faye there.

[135] Yeah, Adam Driver.

[136] Jason Bateman, our director, Sean Levy.

[137] Lots of very tempting guests.

[138] but I was solely focused on you.

[139] Oh, I'm so glad to hear that.

[140] But I didn't know it at the time.

[141] Isn't that interesting?

[142] It is interesting, isn't it?

[143] I'm a big fan of your wife, give her my very best.

[144] I wanted to come and tell you that you guys do a bit on Frankie and crazy.

[145] I know, and I felt really bad.

[146] I asked who she was.

[147] Right.

[148] I was hoping she had, didn't know about that.

[149] Wait, what happened?

[150] So they have a bit on that show.

[151] Yeah, where they.

[152] Ro Paul was on it and Nicole Ritchie.

[153] And they say each show.

[154] shit Kristen Bell.

[155] Oh, wow.

[156] I say, who's Kristen Bell?

[157] Oh, I felt bad.

[158] Okay.

[159] But the reason you can get away with it is because she is so sweet and kind.

[160] She's the only person you can say eat shit.

[161] That's what Ted Danson told me, because I asked him all about her.

[162] Ted gives permission, it's fine.

[163] Well, it, of course, got to her, and she's enormously flattered and wanted me to pass on to you that she loved that.

[164] So if there was any fear you had of like, God, I hope she took that well, she took it the best way possible.

[165] Oh, good, good, good.

[166] Yes.

[167] Okay.

[168] Have you ever done a podcast?

[169] I've done many.

[170] You've done many.

[171] The last one was the very first podcast of Julia Louise Riface.

[172] Yes.

[173] I listened to it.

[174] And Conan O 'Brien.

[175] It's so good.

[176] It was very good.

[177] Yes.

[178] It was number one in the country.

[179] I imagine.

[180] No, I've done good.

[181] We'll call her daddy.

[182] You did that one.

[183] Wonderful.

[184] I guess I did know about Conan because I watched a bunch of it this morning.

[185] And Conan, yeah.

[186] Yes.

[187] Okay.

[188] So you're hip to it.

[189] Therein lies maybe one of my first curiosities.

[190] Okay.

[191] I wish people could see you right now.

[192] Describe to the listener.

[193] Yes, okay.

[194] He's sitting opposite me with wonderful striped socks, shoes that are not laced up, headphones, and a look in his eyes that is positively insane.

[195] He looks like an insane, very intense.

[196] It's like I'm scared.

[197] Oh, my goodness.

[198] I am too.

[199] We do our best work when we're scared, right?

[200] Sort of.

[201] As long as we stay loose and you're always loose.

[202] It's one thing about you.

[203] I watch every episode of.

[204] Bless this mess.

[205] Oh, you did.

[206] Oh, my goodness.

[207] Yes.

[208] No, I'm a big fan of you, and I'm a big fan of Lake.

[209] Oh, yes.

[210] Likes a gangster.

[211] Yes.

[212] Yes.

[213] She's a bad motherfucker.

[214] I'm intimidated because we have finite time.

[215] And you and I could do six hours on your acting career.

[216] We could do six hours on your activism career.

[217] What do you want to do?

[218] Everything.

[219] I'm a glutton.

[220] I'm a fellow addict.

[221] So, yeah, I want it all.

[222] But first question, I feel even in my time here, I've witnessed.

[223] some of the most staggering technological milestones.

[224] Like, the notion that I grew up without cell phones is really kind of mind -boggling at this point.

[225] And when I just look at your birthday this morning, and I think of all the inventions between 1937, December 21st, sorry, terrible birthday.

[226] Great birthday, are you kidding.

[227] You love it?

[228] Oh, my God.

[229] Oh, wow.

[230] Winter solstice?

[231] Oh, that's heavy.

[232] Powerful, you're right.

[233] Makes me feel empowered.

[234] Yeah.

[235] As it should.

[236] Sure.

[237] shortest day of the year.

[238] That's a glass of lemonade with lemons, because what's the point of Christmas?

[239] Oh, yeah.

[240] So in that time frame, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but people didn't have TVs in their home.

[241] Yeah, I remember the first TV.

[242] And radio was king, right?

[243] I remember when there was no freeway in Los Angeles.

[244] There was a red trolley car that went from way downtown, down San Vicente.

[245] There were the tracks.

[246] Then the tracks were taken up, and I used to ride a horse to school.

[247] Wow.

[248] I lived up at the top of tiger tail at the end of a dirt road.

[249] And my school was on the corner of 26 in San Vicente where the trolley tracks used to be.

[250] See, in those days, there was no freeways.

[251] There was no smog.

[252] You could see Catalina every day.

[253] Wow.

[254] I had an uncle that had a gas station and Van Eyes.

[255] It took all day to get there.

[256] You went through the Sepulveda tunnel when you came out and you looked down into the valley all these over trees.

[257] No kidding.

[258] Orange avocado, few horse pastures.

[259] And there were two billion people on earth.

[260] Oh my.

[261] So that manifests in every single part of your life.

[262] No traffic, no crowds, a lot of birds, a lot of empty spaces.

[263] Peace.

[264] So when you're watching some of these period pieces set in the 40s and stuff, I'm imagining you're having what I'm having watching Stranger Things, where it's like the nostalgia is just brimming.

[265] Do you get kind of transported when you see that stuff?

[266] I remember it.

[267] I marvel that I'm still alive and working.

[268] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[269] I wake up every day and pinch myself.

[270] I feel so lucky to be alive to remember back then and to still be here and still working.

[271] It's incredible.

[272] Yeah, I watched a bazillion interviews of you in the last couple days and you're firing on all stillers.

[273] Like, I think you're exceeding what a lot of us are doing at younger ages.

[274] It's incredible.

[275] I agree.

[276] You should feel grateful.

[277] It's to be marveled at.

[278] What do we lose from all these things?

[279] What do we gain and what do we lose?

[280] Okay.

[281] You know, progress is a thing that confuses me a lot.

[282] we should be pre -industrial revolution.

[283] We should not be digging up fossilized animals from the time of prehistory, ancient sea creatures.

[284] We shouldn't be digging them up and then setting them on fire to power our civilization.

[285] Things should be smaller.

[286] There were no chain restaurants when I was little.

[287] The first one was Howard Johnson's.

[288] Hojo.

[289] Hojo.

[290] It was the orange roof.

[291] If you went from New York down to Florida via car, that's where you ate, right?

[292] and that was it and isn't that great.

[293] I miss having a lot of empty space to explore.

[294] I miss all the birds.

[295] There are three billion fewer birds in North America than they were in 1970.

[296] And I see that.

[297] So we lost nature.

[298] We lost clean air and clean water and not so hectic.

[299] What did we gain?

[300] Television is cool.

[301] I like iPhones, but iPhones without social media maybe?

[302] Yeah.

[303] Yeah.

[304] Although somehow we have the aspect that people can connect and organize, that's kind of good.

[305] I miss letter writing.

[306] My parents are both gone, but my stepmother has collected letters and being able to read old letters that your parents wrote to each other before you were born.

[307] How precious.

[308] It doesn't exist anymore.

[309] I read all these historical biographies, and there's always these great examples of letters they've written, even someone like Ulysses S. Grant, who wasn't brilliant in an academic sense.

[310] The way he wrote was, insanely beautiful.

[311] It seems like the standard level of literacy when someone was literate was really high in the written work.

[312] Yeah.

[313] Do you know something though?

[314] I just hate old people who say, oh my God, back in the day, it was so much better.

[315] Yeah, yeah.

[316] Yeah, you know, I mean, iPhones are pretty great, right?

[317] Those of us who grew up without them, being able to just text someone and say, I love you and I miss you without having to go through all the rigomer roll, that's pretty great.

[318] But, you know, today we're more aware that everyone has a place we're more aware of interdependence, we're more aware that people's differences should be accepted and loved and embraced and all of that kind of thing didn't used to exist, so that's good.

[319] Yeah, yeah, it's a mixed bag.

[320] How old are you?

[321] 48.

[322] Oh.

[323] Do you ever get suspicious, though, that you landed in a pretty unique time frame, that you got to observe about 80 % of the things that happened on the human spectrum?

[324] Does that ever feel suspicious to you?

[325] Like, what do you mean?

[326] I'll tell you, humans have been here for 200 ,000 years.

[327] I was born at a time when this all happened.

[328] That seems a little suspicious.

[329] And perhaps if they really do a rest aging within my lifetime, that'll feel very suspicious.

[330] Like we're in a simulation or something's going on.

[331] Do you ever get that thought of just like, wow, what a time I covered?

[332] Yeah, I get that thought of what a time I covered.

[333] I mean, imagine coming into life at the end of the Depression.

[334] I only saw my father cry twice the first time he didn't know I was watching.

[335] He was standing in his huge vision.

[336] Victory Garden.

[337] We had victory gardens in those days because food was rationed because of the Second World War.

[338] He was in the Navy overseas, but he came home on leave, and he was standing in his garden, leaning against a hose, sobbing.

[339] His back was just shaking.

[340] Roosevelt had died.

[341] Oh, wow.

[342] And he was sobbing.

[343] Sobbing.

[344] That feels different as well, don't you think?

[345] Right.

[346] I married men whose fathers would have probably disowned them if they'd known he'd married somebody whose father cried when Roosevelt died.

[347] I mean, a lot of people hated Roosevelt.

[348] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[349] Anyway, then the beginning of the Second World War, when you would go out, you had blackout curtains and there were air raid drills.

[350] Fuel rationing, tire rationing.

[351] My mother and father would go out.

[352] They would volunteer to scout the skies for enemy planes.

[353] Unreal.

[354] Or how about that you were only born 50 years after slavery ended?

[355] Yeah.

[356] And then you witnessed Obama become president.

[357] I mean, that's a really tiny timeframe if you think about it.

[358] It feels like ancient past, but not at all.

[359] Very, very close.

[360] What was the second time he cried?

[361] It was soon before he died.

[362] And I was alone with him, and I thought, this is my chance.

[363] He was sitting in a chair, and I knelt at his feet, and I apologized for not being a better daughter.

[364] I apologized for making him worry about me so much.

[365] And I told him that I knew that he had done his best as a father, and he started to cry.

[366] And I knew that he didn't like to be seen crying.

[367] And I stayed for a while and then I left.

[368] That's the best gift you could have given him.

[369] That's so lovely.

[370] Yeah.

[371] Am I right in that that came directly after you guys had shot a scene?

[372] This was about two, three months after he'd won an Oscar.

[373] So you guys did on Golden Pond, but he died five months later?

[374] No, he died five months after it was released.

[375] After it was released.

[376] So he had won his Oscar already.

[377] Okay.

[378] And then you had that moment with him.

[379] Okay, I had a very complicated relationship with my dad.

[380] He was an addict as well.

[381] They got divorced when I was three.

[382] He was around, he wasn't, he was, whatever.

[383] What did he do?

[384] He was a car salesman.

[385] That wouldn't shock you, right?

[386] You could see me selling cars somewhere in the Midwest.

[387] He died of cancer, and I had this three -month window, which I'm so grateful for, which was, here's your time.

[388] If you don't do it, now it's not going to get done.

[389] And I did it.

[390] And that provided a good deal of relief over the last 10 years since he's died.

[391] But I'm now reached a different phase of it, a greedier phase where it's like, yeah, I did that.

[392] And now I really want to be friends with them.

[393] It felt like closure, but actually, not.

[394] Now, more than anything, I want that resolution to backtrack, and I want now time with him post -resolution.

[395] Do you have that feeling?

[396] Yeah.

[397] Because the beautiful thing you say in Golden Pond, which he wasn't prepared for, is I wish I was your friend.

[398] I want to be your friend.

[399] He hated to have anything happen that had not been rehearsed.

[400] And so I reached out and I touched him, which he wasn't crazy about either.

[401] He wasn't a very tactile person.

[402] And no one in the world would notice, but I did.

[403] I touched him.

[404] He turned away a little bit.

[405] I get emotional, and he ducked his head and put his hand here to cover his face.

[406] But I saw, I saw him tear up and meant the world.

[407] I believe that those feelings that you have of now you want to be his friend, I think that that does something cellular to you, and I think that's known.

[408] I think there's a connection.

[409] I do.

[410] I do.

[411] I feel my mother and father very present, especially my dad.

[412] And I sort of know that they know that I've lived long.

[413] than they have and that I've done really well in life.

[414] You carried the torch well.

[415] Because especially my dad never ever thought I would when I was just a fuck up.

[416] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[417] Can I ask you about your mom a little bit?

[418] Oh, sure.

[419] I did not know any of this until I started researching you.

[420] She was in a hospital when she committed suicide.

[421] Yeah.

[422] When you were 12.

[423] Yeah.

[424] That guest led me to wonder, had she been in and out of hospitals?

[425] In and out of hospitals.

[426] Yeah.

[427] Ed Markey's wife used to be the assistant surgeon general, Susan Blumenthal, and she said, specialized in women's suicide.

[428] And so when I was writing my memoirs, I talked to her and interviewed her.

[429] She said that girls who have fathers that are alcoholics, and my mother's father was schizophrenic and paranoid and alcoholic, that they tend to suffer from depression.

[430] Well, on top of that, she was sexually abused.

[431] And interestingly enough, when I moved to Georgia with Ted, I started studying the effects of sexual abuse on girls, not knowing that I myself had been.

[432] That came out later.

[433] And I learned so much about my mother there.

[434] And so when I read the medical reports from the institution in which she killed herself, I knew what was being said.

[435] She was sexually abused and she became what she became, which meant she couldn't trust, she couldn't really love.

[436] She was like stuck.

[437] She had zero self -confidence.

[438] She flirted a lot.

[439] She was a lot of things and it was complicated.

[440] And so I discovered all that after I'd lost her, which meant that I could totally forgive her.

[441] Oh, mom, I understand why.

[442] You could never be there for me. Yeah.

[443] And she's doing that all in the 30s with a Freudian understanding of psychology.

[444] Yeah, right.

[445] Oh, my God, when I read what they did to her, you know, but they did their best.

[446] But, I mean, it was totally inappropriate.

[447] Yeah.

[448] If she was only alive now with the women's movement and the advances in psychology and therapy, cognitive therapy, relational therapy, she could have been helped.

[449] I could have helped her.

[450] Yeah.

[451] Well, there in lives, one of the positive things we'd add.

[452] to the tally between 1937 and now.

[453] I do think it's a safer place.

[454] It's a safer place for those who can afford it, which is another heartbreaking thing, is that we know what works to make people heal and to help them get onwards.

[455] And yet, most of the people can't afford it.

[456] Yeah.

[457] Or they don't have the time.

[458] They're working two jobs and have kids.

[459] They can't go to therapy.

[460] Well, that means they can't afford it.

[461] Yeah, yeah, yes, yes.

[462] Were you close with her?

[463] No. Nobody could be close with her.

[464] Yeah.

[465] And your dad was obviously out.

[466] shooting movies.

[467] So who is raising you?

[468] Me. Uh -huh.

[469] As Elaine Steinem says, we raise ourselves to be the mother of ourselves that we never had.

[470] And then we mother ourselves into adulthood.

[471] And sometimes it happens when we're 30 and sometimes when we're 60, which is the case with me, you know, later than life.

[472] But it's okay.

[473] But you had to have, as I did, pick up isms out of all that.

[474] You had to pick up some insecurities and some coping mechanisms and some strategies.

[475] Reservous.

[476] Resilience is such an interesting thing.

[477] Two people can be born within a year of each other of the same parents, and one can be resilient and one not.

[478] It's a mystery.

[479] I was in therapy for a while, and my therapist said, she thinks that you come into life with it.

[480] You either have it or you don't, because all kinds of things happen to the fetus in utero.

[481] You know, I mean, how the mother is, trauma, things like that.

[482] So if you come into life resilient, which I did, it means that as a young person, and not consciously, you're scanning the horizon constantly, like an infrared laser, seeking a warm body that can love you or teach you something.

[483] And I bet you're that way.

[484] I bet you're resilient.

[485] Thank you.

[486] I think it's one of my positive characteristics.

[487] Yeah, yeah.

[488] In the bag of many characteristics.

[489] And it saves us because it means if your girlfriend or boyfriend or your elementary school pal has a mother who knows how to love, you're going to get.

[490] it from her.

[491] You figure it out.

[492] You figure it out.

[493] You just do.

[494] As opposed to someone who's not resilient, who could be surrounded by love but can't metabolize it.

[495] Or initiate it.

[496] Yeah.

[497] Do you have trouble being vulnerable as I do?

[498] Is it hard for you to ask for help?

[499] I'm learning.

[500] At 85.

[501] I'm learning.

[502] Wonderful.

[503] I see you.

[504] Now, not having a mother that you would have maybe modeled yourself after.

[505] I had a stepmother.

[506] When she died, my father was with a woman.

[507] three years younger than him?

[508] Yeah, she was about seven years older than me. She was Oscar Hammerstein's granddaughter.

[509] Who's Oscar Hamer?

[510] I'm embarrassed to ask you.

[511] Who's Oscar Hammerstein?

[512] Yes, don't kick me out.

[513] I'm trying to be vulnerable.

[514] I just said that's hard for me. He wrote all the lyrics to Oklahoma to South Pacific.

[515] Rogers and Hammerstein.

[516] I know that.

[517] Well, that's Hammerstein.

[518] That's Hammerstein.

[519] That's Oscar Hammerstein.

[520] Okay.

[521] Thanks for bearing with me. Yeah, yeah.

[522] She was drop dead gorgeous.

[523] Uh -huh.

[524] She was Jewish.

[525] And at 13, I was convinced that the only people in the world that laughed were Jews.

[526] Okay, right.

[527] Nobody ever laughed in my family.

[528] And then I met Sidney Lament, who was directing 12 Angry One with my father.

[529] And there was laughter all around him.

[530] And then I met my stepmother who laughed and told jokes and danced.

[531] And she was chic.

[532] I was 13, and she taught me how to be, me and my brother.

[533] You weren't threatened.

[534] No, I needed a role model, and she was it.

[535] This young girl, how she knew how to be a mother to two young kids whose mother had just killed themselves, and she did.

[536] Wow.

[537] That's a big lift.

[538] Yeah.

[539] Is she the one you referenced a minute ago when you said she has the letters?

[540] Is that the stepmother you're referring to?

[541] No, my father was married five times.

[542] The last one, my stepmother, Shirley.

[543] Has all that stuff.

[544] Okay.

[545] So you were by your own description, a little wayward, a little confused, didn't know what you wanted to do.

[546] you end up going to Vosser, but you drop out, and then you meet Strasbourg's daughter, Lee Strasbourg's daughter.

[547] Yeah, my dad was in a play here in L .A., and we rented a house on the beach, and right down the beach, Lee Strasbourg had rented a house because his wife was coaching Marilyn Monroe, who was filming some like it hot.

[548] Oh, wow.

[549] My goodness.

[550] And Susan Strasbourg, my age, and I would get together with another friend of hers who was a student of Lees, and we'd played chess.

[551] And one day, Susan said, do you want to be an actor?

[552] I had been fired as a secretary, and I didn't know what to do.

[553] And so I said, well, I don't know if she said, well, you should study with my father.

[554] So he interviewed me and he took me into his classes.

[555] And he told me I was talented and that was it.

[556] That was really, really impactful now.

[557] Yeah, I mean, I had no intention of being an actor.

[558] I didn't know what to do.

[559] I had to earn a living, but I was fired as a secretary.

[560] I didn't know.

[561] And then I started auditioning and working with Lee, and he told me I was talented.

[562] So I thought, okay.

[563] Do you remember how you had fucked up the secretarial position that you got fired?

[564] Were you tardy?

[565] Were you incompetent?

[566] What led to your dismissal?

[567] Oh, oh, Jesus, hints.

[568] And nine to five is born.

[569] It incubates for a while, but nine to five is born.

[570] Yes, that's another thing you witnessed on your watch.

[571] It's not great now at all.

[572] But even I watched my mother build a business in the 80s, and I watched her clients squeeze her ass whenever they wanted to.

[573] And, yeah, I can only imagine what was happening when you were a secretary.

[574] in 1950 or whatever.

[575] Fifty's, that's right.

[576] It was the 50s.

[577] And it was no holds barred back then?

[578] Well, it didn't happen to me very much.

[579] It happened one other time after that.

[580] There was a French director, not the one I married, who told me that he had to sleep with me because the character that I'm playing in the movie has an orgasm and he had to see how I orgasm.

[581] Well, of course.

[582] I just pretended I didn't speak French.

[583] Oh, my Lord, Jane.

[584] But it also, it must be sort of dismal to see how there has been progress, but there should have been more progress on that front by now.

[585] This is an issue that is tens of thousands of years old.

[586] Yeah.

[587] And I don't get impatient.

[588] I'm just grateful that we've made the progress that we have.

[589] It's about power.

[590] And this is going to be a long fight.

[591] And we just have to stick with it.

[592] Yeah, that's true.

[593] You know what bothers me in your tattoos?

[594] Yeah, tell me. Is the white parts.

[595] Yes, it's in the process of that'll get filled.

[596] That one right up there, especially.

[597] Okay.

[598] I just Listeners said, no, I'm looking at a very magnificent tattooed arm.

[599] It's very beautiful.

[600] I think that's an eagle.

[601] Yeah, so my dad loved hawks and I love crows.

[602] Crows are so smart.

[603] They're so smart.

[604] Yeah, my favorite bird is a king fisher and a cuckoo bird.

[605] They're related.

[606] Why do you like those two birds?

[607] I don't know.

[608] They're big and they're fat and they squawk.

[609] Oh, they're so good.

[610] Have you ever been to Australia?

[611] Yes.

[612] Oh, God.

[613] Have you had encounters with cuckaburow birds?

[614] No, I haven't.

[615] I'm really sad.

[616] Oh, they're so good.

[617] They're just great bullies and wonderful.

[618] I wish I could remember the name.

[619] We did go somewhere and there was these little tiny creatures.

[620] They were so cute.

[621] And they were in charge.

[622] It wasn't a mere cat.

[623] They have this really weird name.

[624] It's a little marsupial.

[625] It looks like a very baby, baby kangaroo.

[626] But they're very bossy.

[627] So in this like orphanage of weird marsupials, they're in charge, but they're seven inches tall.

[628] And they're running around.

[629] They're yelling at them, yelling at the big kangaroos.

[630] And I was there with Kristen.

[631] And I was like, look at this, hon. This is you.

[632] Miniature, but in charge of this whole scene.

[633] Oh, now we know.

[634] Okay.

[635] You definitely, though, give off the vibe that you would be in charge of everything.

[636] Well, that's why it's an interesting union between Kristen and I, because we're both in charge.

[637] But we've learned to both be in charge, I guess.

[638] How long have you been married?

[639] About 10 years.

[640] But we've been together for 15.

[641] That's good.

[642] I am not political, but I was protesting DOMA.

[643] We were like, we're not going to have a party and invite our gay friends who can't also do the same thing.

[644] We're going to wait.

[645] But I want to talk about how you got engaged in activism.

[646] And this was kind of a revelation.

[647] I didn't realize the course by which you became an anti -war activist, which is you were in France.

[648] I was married to a French director.

[649] And I was in France.

[650] I was pregnant.

[651] That part's important because when a woman is pregnant, she's like a sponge.

[652] She's very sensitive.

[653] And there was a group of American soldiers who were in Paris.

[654] They had deserted.

[655] They were resisting the Vietnam War.

[656] They had been.

[657] They had fought in Vietnam.

[658] Now they were in Paris looking for help from compatriot Americans.

[659] You know, by the way, you know who halves them and fed them?

[660] Who?

[661] Alexander Calder, the great sculptor.

[662] Oh, really?

[663] Yeah.

[664] Anyway, they sought me out.

[665] One of them's name was Dick Perrin.

[666] And we kind of became friends.

[667] Do you know what we did the first time I met Dick?

[668] What?

[669] We were going out to see Midsummer Night's Dream in Paris with Leonard Bernstein's wife, Felicia Bernstein, George Orwell's granddaughter.

[670] Oh, boy.

[671] Right?

[672] Yeah, yeah.

[673] My wonderful stepmother, who was hardly older than I was, the one that was so wonderful to me, and the soldier, he started talking to me about Vietnam, and I didn't believe him.

[674] Yeah, you even said you felt like this take was sour grapes on the French's part.

[675] Well, that was when the French were opposed to the war, I just said sour grapes, just because you lost.

[676] Yes.

[677] So you started very kind of patriotic.

[678] My father was in the Navy, and I assumed that wherever our soldiers were fighting was the side of the angels.

[679] I really believed that.

[680] But these guys had actually been there.

[681] They were the soldiers that were there.

[682] And they were telling me these things.

[683] And I was having a hard time believing.

[684] And they gave me a book called The Village of Ben Suk by Jonathan Schell.

[685] And I read it.

[686] And I remember closing it up and knowing that my life would never be the same.

[687] And a year later, I left France.

[688] I left my family.

[689] I moved back here.

[690] What did the French husband say to that?

[691] He called me Jane of Arc and he made fun of me. He did.

[692] He was trying to tease you into not doing it.

[693] Well, I mean, it's hard for a guy.

[694] wasn't leaving him for another man. I was leaving him for a cause.

[695] That's even scarier.

[696] He was very uncomfortable with that.

[697] You can't compete with a cause.

[698] That's right.

[699] This was one of my first big issues with Kristen, was she has so many causes.

[700] And I said, look, I'm a son of a single mom that had a bunch of stepdad's blow through.

[701] I want to be someone's number one thing, selfishly.

[702] And of course, any cause, because it's the right thing, of course I'll be second to anything, because that's more important.

[703] That's my big fear.

[704] And she said, you will be number one.

[705] and I will do all this stuff.

[706] She's a good woman.

[707] And I said, okay.

[708] I couldn't say that too.

[709] Right.

[710] Well, he probably also couldn't be vulnerable and say that to you either, though.

[711] He couldn't say that, but I'll tell you what really got me. I moved back here.

[712] I had been watching television in France, seeing this amazing anti -war movement, marching on the Pentagon, and I kept thinking that's where I should be.

[713] I came back home because it was soldiers that had exposed the war to me. I sought out soldiers here, and I became part of the G .I. movement as civilian support.

[714] And anti -war activists had created these coffee houses outside of military bases around the United States.

[715] And they would run them and soldiers would come off the bases and come in and read about Vietnam, learn about Vietnam, hear speakers.

[716] And there was one in Killeen, Texas, outside of Fort Hood.

[717] It was called the Olio Strutt.

[718] Love that name.

[719] It was the woman who ran at Terry Davis that turned me into a lifelong activist.

[720] The way she treated the guys the way she listened to them, the way she talked to them and cared about them, the way she dealt with me. She didn't see me as a celebrity.

[721] She saw me. She wanted to know how I felt about the demonstration that was happening tomorrow and I was leading the way and I was a virgin activist and she wanted to be sure I felt okay.

[722] She would invite feminists to come and speak about the women's movement to the soldiers.

[723] But the way she did it made it so organic and loving.

[724] Being with her was like looking through a keyhole at the world that we were fighting for that we wanted to create.

[725] She sucked you into her worldview.

[726] She didn't suck me in.

[727] It was just the way she treated people.

[728] She was the change that we were fighting for.

[729] And she wasn't the only one.

[730] I kept meeting people like this.

[731] I had never met people like this in my life.

[732] And I was 32 years old.

[733] And I said, I want this.

[734] I want to become a person like these people.

[735] It was the quality of the women in the anti -war movement that made me feel this is who I want to become and this is where I belong.

[736] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[737] We've all been there.

[738] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[739] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[740] Like the unexplainable death of a retired fire.

[741] firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[742] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[743] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[744] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[745] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[746] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[747] What's up, guys.

[748] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[749] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[750] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[751] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[752] And I don't mean just friends.

[753] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[754] The list goes on.

[755] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[756] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[757] This kind of sets up this interesting evolution of you, which I've heard you talk about.

[758] a lot, which is there's a profound moment when you get divorced from Ted.

[759] You're 62, and it's the first time in your life you say you feel like you're fine without a man. And you also acknowledge you've previously used men to take you to where you wanted to go, which is what you said, and then leave them.

[760] I didn't always plan to leave them.

[761] I never thought I would.

[762] Sure, but it happens, right?

[763] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[764] I'm just repeating what you say, I don't say that with any judgment whatsoever.

[765] But I'm wondering the whole ride, there's this tension between looking to men for an identity and approval and a transport to somewhere else, and then trying to define what being a woman would be.

[766] And it feels like this moment for you is something that's a building block to 62.

[767] It's like exploring what a woman would do without any man. That's right.

[768] And then right after that, I made Clute.

[769] And I realized when I was filming Clute, oh, my God, I'm becoming a feminist.

[770] Right.

[771] In that moment of you being an activist and being very, very involved in dedicating your life to it.

[772] A friend told you, and you were like, I'm done acting.

[773] That's so frivolous compared to this.

[774] And that friend said, we've got a lot of activists.

[775] We don't have any celebrities.

[776] We don't have movie stars.

[777] This was a black lawyer from Detroit, maybe, called Ken Cockrell.

[778] And we became friends, and he was a mentor.

[779] And he said, no, not only are you not going to leave the business.

[780] You've got to pay better attention to your career.

[781] Be more intentional about the movies you make.

[782] Take it seriously.

[783] Yeah.

[784] That's what we need in this movement.

[785] And then I formed a production company.

[786] Yes, isn't it bizarre when you watch how we get redirected in all these avenues?

[787] The workout, this incredible woman named Lenny Kastin, taught me the workout, and I was looking for some way to make money to support the campaign for economic democracy in California, because we had a statewide organization in this huge state.

[788] At the time, it had 22 million people.

[789] Now it's 48 million or something.

[790] And there was a recession.

[791] It was the end of the 70s.

[792] I said, I'm going to go into a business of the work.

[793] workout to fund the campaign for economic democracy and look what happened.

[794] Yes, yes, yes.

[795] But also just how incredible through now the perspective of looking back that if you don't become an activist, I mean, you would have been bored with it, but you're maybe playing different roles and taking different projects.

[796] And then almost your rejection of the career leads to doing work that.

[797] Yeah.

[798] And doing work that actually gave it longevity.

[799] Yeah.

[800] Because then you have some pretty powerful movies and rapid success.

[801] that are quite political.

[802] Yeah.

[803] Coming home, nine to five.

[804] Roll over, which was not a success.

[805] Right.

[806] But let's talk about nine to five for a second.

[807] Uh -huh.

[808] That movie's 1980.

[809] It's 50 years ahead of schedule, really, or kicks off something that comes to full fruition just a few years ago.

[810] Was that an easy movie to get set up?

[811] Not once Dolly and Lily agreed to do it.

[812] During the Vietnam War, I became very close friends with a woman named Karen Nussbaum, and her day job was organizing women office workers.

[813] And she started in Boston an organization called 9 to 5.

[814] She would tell me these stories about what was going on with women office workers.

[815] And I said, I got to make a movie about this.

[816] It was a serious, kind of a darker comedy then.

[817] And then I saw Lily Tomlin.

[818] I had never seen her before.

[819] Performing a one -woman show called Appearing Nightly.

[820] I was like, this is the greatest woman actor I have ever seen in my life.

[821] and I'm smitten, and I'm not going to make a movie about secretaries unless she's in it.

[822] True story, I'm driving home from the theater, and I turn on the radio, and it's Dolly Parton, singing Two Doors Down.

[823] And I had this image of Dolly, oh, my God, what a great secretary.

[824] She can't see her fingers when she's typing.

[825] She's never acted, never been in a movie, but my God, just the visual.

[826] And I bet she can't act.

[827] She had never at that point.

[828] No, no, no. She had never been in a movie.

[829] No way.

[830] And Lily and Dolly, it turns out, had the same manager.

[831] It took me a year to convince them both to do this.

[832] It was a great experience.

[833] And once they came in, it was not difficult, no. You have said several times that Dolly for you was one of the most impressive people.

[834] Dolly is it truly extraordinary.

[835] My curiosity was, did you have any judgment of the book before you met her?

[836] Were you shocked to learn that she was as sophisticated and savvy and in charge of her own life as she is?

[837] I was relieved.

[838] I was so happy to find out.

[839] I guess when I picture the image of her at that time at Grand Ole Opry and you standing on a tank, those are very different women.

[840] I could see where one woman would be judgmental of the other.

[841] No, I've always loved country music.

[842] I was fascinated by her, but I didn't know her.

[843] But I got to know her.

[844] What a treat.

[845] When I was working on nine to five to get that ready with my producing partner, Bruce Gilbert, I was also working on another project that ended up being on television.

[846] It was the only movie that I ever did for television.

[847] It was called The Dollmaker.

[848] And I had to play a a hillbilly who can't read.

[849] I've said, I need help, Dolly, because you're the only hillbilly I know and you're not exactly typical.

[850] I need to understand, can you tell me where to go?

[851] Well, as a gift to me after the movie was over, 9 to 5, she invited me to Nashville and she took me on a 10 -day trip through Appalachia.

[852] And I met eventually the woman that I went and lived with then for a while.

[853] And you were in her bus, yeah?

[854] You guys were like on a tour bus?

[855] We went on her bus.

[856] It was hysterical.

[857] And she has a cousin in the Ozarks that makes moonshine.

[858] Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

[859] We picked up some moonshine when we passed through there.

[860] You know, and she taught me what makes good moonshine.

[861] It means it's been passed two, three, four times.

[862] It was so pure.

[863] She taught me how to hook my thumb through the hook of the jug and tip it up with my elbow.

[864] And so we drank on this jug for 10 days.

[865] Oh, wonderful.

[866] I did not know that I was drunk until I got home.

[867] It took me two weeks to recover.

[868] Oh, really?

[869] Oh, my God.

[870] We laughed a lot.

[871] Oh, my God.

[872] I have a question.

[873] about feminism.

[874] So when you came into being a feminist and when you started realizing this is the type of person I want to be when you were exposed to those awesome women, did it make you look at your life up until that point differently, like your relationships?

[875] How did you then, in retrospect, see the way you'd been operating your life?

[876] I saw it very clearly.

[877] I realized that I could see my life as a gender journey, that kind of everything that happened to me and how I respond.

[878] was a result of the fact that I'm a woman.

[879] Yes.

[880] I'm supposed to be thin.

[881] I'm supposed to look like this.

[882] I'm supposed to behave like this.

[883] I like that.

[884] So I date this kind of a person and so on and so forth.

[885] It made me understand my life.

[886] And that's why my memoir that I wrote, my life so far, is really a gender journey.

[887] It wasn't until I realized that that I could even write it.

[888] But I was a theoretical feminist for a decade or so.

[889] My movies were all women -centered.

[890] The books I read, the people that I knew.

[891] It was in my head.

[892] I wasn't embodied.

[893] Exactly.

[894] And I know the moment that I became an embodied feminist.

[895] A friend of my name Pat Mitchell persuaded me to go to New York.

[896] I still lived in Atlanta to see Eve Anselor perform her play that she wrote, The Vagina Monologues.

[897] Oh, yes.

[898] And she performed all of the monologues herself.

[899] Wow.

[900] I was by myself.

[901] And I don't know if you've seen the play, but there's parts of it that are hysterical.

[902] I read it.

[903] And there's parts of it that I'm sobbing.

[904] It was while I was laughing.

[905] The guard is down.

[906] the censorship is down, and I could feel my feminism going into my body.

[907] I could feel myself becoming, oh, my God, that's what it is.

[908] I was so happy.

[909] I fell in love with her, and she's been my friend ever since.

[910] It was a great experience.

[911] I love that because I think a lot of people, especially younger people, me, have a very intellectual view of it, and sometimes our actions don't necessarily even match our intellectual thoughts on it, and it's confusing.

[912] It was confusing for me in the beginning.

[913] You know, I became an activist right at the time that feminism was going through a very sectarian phase.

[914] You weren't a feminist unless you were a lesbian kind of thing.

[915] It took me a long time to really understand, and it was Eve Ansela who did it.

[916] Another epiphany.

[917] Yeah.

[918] Okay.

[919] The thing I think I admire the very most about you is you seem to have a bravery in the face of shame.

[920] You're incredibly honest.

[921] You're incredibly vulnerable.

[922] you own up to things and admit to things over the years.

[923] You were very ahead of your time.

[924] Well, don't you hate it?

[925] Those people who say the world is full of assholes.

[926] Everybody's an asshole except them.

[927] They never take responsibility.

[928] I hate that.

[929] Yeah, everyone else is the problem in the relationship.

[930] Everyone else is...

[931] You can't grow.

[932] You can't learn.

[933] Let me just tell you where I come from.

[934] I'm a recovering addict.

[935] I was molested.

[936] I grew up in a lot of violence.

[937] I've been a terrible dude in my addiction.

[938] Oh, I think I love you.

[939] I have found it a challenge to be honest and open and deal with what wouldn't do shame otherwise.

[940] And it's been hard, but I'm much further down the road, and you did it much, much earlier.

[941] And I'm wondering if you have an explanation for how you've been able to own who you are and not carry the shame.

[942] It's hard.

[943] But again, it's the resilience.

[944] That helps.

[945] Yeah, I love 9 to 5.

[946] Yeah, I think you are so ballsy to stand unattain.

[947] All that stuff.

[948] The thing I think you're bravest is, and when you go, I was not a good mom.

[949] And I didn't understand how to be a good mom.

[950] Right.

[951] And my kids don't want me to do that anymore.

[952] Okay, great.

[953] So we won't do that.

[954] We'll respect them.

[955] But to say I had a food addiction, way before people said they had a food addiction, those are the moments for me where I go, oh, Jane's a badass.

[956] She's who I aspire to be.

[957] Women are taught not to tell their truth.

[958] Because if we tell our truth, nobody will love us.

[959] And what I learned as I started to get older was when women do, do tell their truth, it's a universal.

[960] I think in my heart, what I really am is a teacher, and what I really want to do is to make other people, women in particular, and gay men, because they respond to, no, it's not just you.

[961] It's universal.

[962] I want people to be able to identify and learn from.

[963] I think that's the biggest contribution that I can make in life.

[964] I hate the idea of going out and dying, and I'm going to die soon, given how old I am, without feeling that you've contributed something.

[965] So I want to contribute honesty.

[966] Yes.

[967] Well, look, men have had the luxury of being full -dimensional people that are flawed and still loved.

[968] All my favorite country singers, Whalen Jennings, I mean, this is a man who was doing a kilo of Coke a month and was not around and slept with every woman.

[969] But the art was beautiful and we're like, yeah, he's a complicated man. That's how we get those songs.

[970] Never were women invited to be a full thing that has some beautiful, amazing parts and some flawed parts they struggle with.

[971] They maybe not even now invited to have the whole complexity of a human.

[972] That's right.

[973] But we have a great strength that y 'all don't have, which is that we're not afraid of saying to our women friends, I'm in trouble, help me. Yep, exactly.

[974] I don't know what to do.

[975] I'm lost.

[976] And please hold me. Yeah.

[977] Oh, what a gift.

[978] We're taught to think that's weakness, but it's pure strength to be able to do that, it's really hard for me because I always wanted to be a man. It's hard.

[979] Yeah, yeah.

[980] But you guys don't do that, and it's such a handicap.

[981] It plagued your father in particular, you've said, he really suffered from that Midwestern Edith.

[982] Yeah.

[983] Women are born and for 10 years, just until they become adolescence, it's like, fuck you, and let's wrestle, and I'm going to climb the tree and punch.

[984] Yeah, my daughters are farting every six minutes.

[985] Right, yeah, yeah.

[986] Our full voice.

[987] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[988] And then we reach adolescence and, oh, you're supposed to be that way.

[989] Oh, I want to be popular.

[990] That thing sets in.

[991] But we've had a decade of voice being alive and heard before then.

[992] Men, you're five years old, you leave house for the first time and go to school.

[993] Society and coaches and teachers and maybe even your father is saying, oh, boys don't cry.

[994] Oh, no, no, don't show your emotions.

[995] No, no, don't hug him.

[996] And what does it do?

[997] It cuts you off from your heart.

[998] And I think that's where addictions come in.

[999] Yeah.

[1000] Because we're chalices that are meant to be filled.

[1001] And if we're not filled with spirit, which means our full humanity, we can hug and love on and ask for help and be strong.

[1002] Intertwine with means.

[1003] If we can't be whole, we've got to fill that emptiness with something.

[1004] It can be drugs.

[1005] It can be liquor.

[1006] It can be sex.

[1007] Women.

[1008] And that's why I finally understood AA, the higher power.

[1009] Oh, it means fill that empty space.

[1010] with love and spirit, which means you need to be humble, you need to be able to admit weakness and all like that.

[1011] And I've lost my train now.

[1012] Ever since I started doing chemo, I sometimes forget what I'm saying.

[1013] I don't know what I'm referring to now.

[1014] You are on fire, and that was completely linear and brilliantly stated.

[1015] And did I finish it?

[1016] Yes, yes, absolutely.

[1017] Way more than what we can do.

[1018] Yes, yes, yes.

[1019] Would you for a second, because I'm an addict, and that's my favorite topic, Can you tell me the struggle of an eating disorder in a time where it wasn't really talked about and there weren't any tools and how on earth you navigated that?

[1020] And you were older, right?

[1021] Yeah, I healed myself in my late 40s.

[1022] Late 40s, that means like a lot of years.

[1023] Exactly.

[1024] Engaging in this addictive behavior.

[1025] Probably 25 years or something, yeah?

[1026] Maybe 15.

[1027] Well, it's weird when you think that this thing that I'm doing, nobody else does it.

[1028] I'm the only person.

[1029] Yeah, because it's not obvious.

[1030] You can look at bars and see that many people have drug and alcohol addictions.

[1031] It's such a private endeavor, that addiction, that you could think you're the only person on the planet with that.

[1032] That's right.

[1033] And it's a totally, you don't want anybody to know.

[1034] It's a disease of denial because if anybody knows they're going to try to stop you.

[1035] Yes.

[1036] And they can monitor you.

[1037] You have to go eat three times a day or you have to participate in this whole thing and you will be monitored.

[1038] So you don't want to open that, I imagine.

[1039] You don't want anybody to know.

[1040] And so your life is based on deceit and you're obsessive.

[1041] And so you don't really think about anything else.

[1042] And it affects every aspect of your life.

[1043] Yeah.

[1044] And when you're young, there's no price to pay.

[1045] And then you start getting older.

[1046] And every binge and purge would take a week to recover from.

[1047] Oh, wow.

[1048] Just like all addictions.

[1049] They work less and they're harder to recover from.

[1050] And then you begin to realize, I'm not going to be able to continue to live an accomplished life if I keep on.

[1051] All I knew is then I have to stop.

[1052] And like, how do you do that?

[1053] Yes, how do you do that?

[1054] I thought I was going to die.

[1055] I was married.

[1056] I had children.

[1057] I was working politically.

[1058] I was working as an entertainer.

[1059] And I just stayed stone for a long time.

[1060] That's hard.

[1061] It was very, very, very, very, very hard.

[1062] I went cold turkey and it was very, very, very hard.

[1063] And did you tell people?

[1064] Did you tell your family?

[1065] No. No, it was all private.

[1066] The first time I ever admitted it publicly was the first workout book that I wrote.

[1067] wrote.

[1068] And I didn't know there was a name for it.

[1069] Anorexia, bulimia, I didn't know.

[1070] I wrote it.

[1071] And my editor said, Jane, I can't tell it.

[1072] Are you talking about yourself or somebody else?

[1073] I was so.

[1074] Yeah, yeah, at arm's length.

[1075] Yeah, I was at arm's length.

[1076] And I wrote more about it when I wrote in my memoir.

[1077] And I've studied it a lot now.

[1078] But again, it goes back to my question.

[1079] Do you think you can isolate why you have the bravery or the gumption to put yourself in a situation that otherwise might scare people because of the shame?

[1080] the public shame.

[1081] Where does it come from?

[1082] Can I tell you mine?

[1083] Oh, good.

[1084] I'm competitive.

[1085] I was dominated by stepdad's and an older brother and I have a weird commitment to my life post -childhood that I will not be dominated and I will live exactly how I want to live.

[1086] And so my competitive fuck you says, I refuse to let you have power over me. I refuse to let you shame me. I'm in charge of me. Mine is a, fuck you, I'll be me whether you like it or not.

[1087] Dedication.

[1088] And that led you to do, what, drugs, alcohol.

[1089] It led me to be honest that I'm an alcoholic and an addict or that I've been molested.

[1090] Like the things I've said in public that I was afraid of, sure.

[1091] That normally people are afraid of the shame.

[1092] Yeah.

[1093] Mine comes from a, well, fuck you.

[1094] I refuse to let you shame me. I'm going to be honest about me. But out of this very almost aggressive defense of myself, that's where I steal it in myself.

[1095] Huh.

[1096] You know what mine was that's sort of like that?

[1097] I'm white.

[1098] I'm privileged.

[1099] I had a famous movie star father.

[1100] Everybody thought I would be a whos.

[1101] And so when I became an activist and I was becoming controversial, I knew that those who didn't agree with me thought, we're going to give her hard time and she'll cave.

[1102] And I was like, oh, yeah.

[1103] Right.

[1104] You're not going to make me cave.

[1105] Yeah.

[1106] I am not who you think I am.

[1107] So it's kind of the same thing.

[1108] Right.

[1109] Right.

[1110] All good.

[1111] I love that.

[1112] Because I've studied Zen Buddhism.

[1113] I went to a retreat that was a silent meditation for eight days.

[1114] It was very, very intense.

[1115] It was formal Buddhist meditation, silent, no words, no making eye contact.

[1116] And I know afterwards everybody said they never thought that I'd make it.

[1117] Because a lot of people do come and then they leave.

[1118] They don't stay.

[1119] And I felt so strong.

[1120] Yes, yes.

[1121] You just need to basically hear you shouldn't or couldn't do something and then you're activated.

[1122] That's right.

[1123] Yeah.

[1124] So you shouldn't bring your dirty skeletons out in public.

[1125] You shouldn't admit to this.

[1126] Okay, I dig that.

[1127] Let's talk about your movie now.

[1128] You have a movie called Book Club.

[1129] Oh, the next chapter.

[1130] Oh, it's so good.

[1131] Oh, this is going to be big.

[1132] Yes, we loved it.

[1133] And it does perfectly set up another thing we would love to talk about, which is what that movie, and now the second one, models just so incredible.

[1134] I know you're very aware of this.

[1135] And we tell people this all the time that it is for your morbidity.

[1136] You'd be better off smoking than not having friends.

[1137] That it is more dangerous to your health to not have.

[1138] have friends.

[1139] Women friends.

[1140] Well, and men, too.

[1141] Humans need friendship, but women's.

[1142] We're social creatures.

[1143] But women's friendship is very different than men's.

[1144] Okay, tell me. Okay.

[1145] This is the analogy.

[1146] Men friendships.

[1147] Men side by side, looking out.

[1148] Yeah.

[1149] Looking at things.

[1150] Women, cars, sports.

[1151] Hitting a golf ball.

[1152] Yeah.

[1153] Yeah.

[1154] Yeah.

[1155] Women are facing each other, eyes to eyes.

[1156] We're asking for help.

[1157] We're being vulnerable together.

[1158] We drill down to a soul level right at the beginning, even if we have not.

[1159] seen each other for a decade.

[1160] It's deep.

[1161] The laughter also is the most unhinged.

[1162] The greatest laughter that I have ever experienced was with women friends.

[1163] You brought it up in the vagina monologues.

[1164] Laughter is a very disarming state to be in because you don't have your faculties about you to be protective of yourself and be vigilant.

[1165] The guard is totally down.

[1166] Yes, you're fucked.

[1167] If you're laughing uncontrollably, you're vulnerable.

[1168] That's why I fell in love with Ted Turner.

[1169] He is so funny.

[1170] And he taught me that it's okay to be funny and outrageous.

[1171] I mean, he really gave me a sense of humor.

[1172] I didn't have that before.

[1173] The power of these female connections, how vital they are to your actual health and how this movie, to me, is a celebration of that and a modeling of that and encouraging of that.

[1174] That's exactly what we wanted to be and what we knew it would be.

[1175] And it's also, just because you're 70 or 80 doesn't mean you can't take leaps of faith and have adventures.

[1176] and maybe even fall in love, maybe even get married.

[1177] That's what the movie talks about, and it's making people so happy.

[1178] Yes, it is the most joyous thing to watch.

[1179] You guys have that fun, have that adventure.

[1180] The first one, we only got together the four women when we were having our book clubs, whereas this one...

[1181] You're all together in Italy?

[1182] We're all the time in Italy and Rome and in Venice.

[1183] We learned that we liked each other, which we didn't know.

[1184] We'd never worked with each other before.

[1185] Which is interesting in itself, right?

[1186] People, I guess, would probably assume you all knew each other.

[1187] Right, no. I mean, we had, you know, when you cross paths at parties and that.

[1188] Of course.

[1189] But we didn't really know each other, and we'd never worked.

[1190] And we made the first one, and we liked each other.

[1191] And we were interested in each other.

[1192] And we became friends, and we stayed in touch during COVID.

[1193] God bless her, Diane Keaton would call me like every three weeks to find out how I was.

[1194] And every time candy comes out, we would figure out whose house we could have a reunion in and have a...

[1195] Yeah.

[1196] Yeah.

[1197] We were friends.

[1198] And then we realized.

[1199] that it was going to be successful and we should do a sequel and it was Candy's idea to do it in Italy.

[1200] And it was like, was it work?

[1201] Right.

[1202] I think it was a vacation.

[1203] It was a blurring of lines.

[1204] Okay, I worked with Craig T. Nelson for six years on parenthood.

[1205] I absolutely love him.

[1206] Yes.

[1207] I do too.

[1208] He was so deeply.

[1209] Yeah.

[1210] And I imagine you two together and I just imagine lots of sparks politically are different.

[1211] Oh, but we like each other a lot.

[1212] Exactly.

[1213] I can see the interaction knowing him so well and having interacted with you myself?

[1214] Is it a very fun and playful friendship you guys have?

[1215] Well, when I really had fun with him was when he played my lover in Grace and Frankie.

[1216] Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[1217] I remember that as well.

[1218] That was where I got to know him and love him.

[1219] Sure, sure, sure.

[1220] You know, in this movie, he's married to marry, Steenbergin.

[1221] Who I fucking adore.

[1222] Right?

[1223] Yeah.

[1224] She is a magical person.

[1225] She's on another level.

[1226] She's on a love zone.

[1227] Yes.

[1228] The great gift for me is her and Ted have come into my life.

[1229] I love them so much.

[1230] And what a great couple.

[1231] Aren't they incredible?

[1232] Oh, my Lord.

[1233] All of us, Diane, Candy and I, I mean, we're just like, aren't we?

[1234] Can we join this?

[1235] Ted was with us in Rome with their dog, Arthur, their 17 and a half year old dog, Arthur.

[1236] So he was like everybody's plus one.

[1237] And Arthur was everybody's dog.

[1238] And we went out in ate pasta and gelato.

[1239] We were there at the same time last summer, and we were communicating with Ted, and we were supposed to get together with Ted.

[1240] And then he had COVID out of nowhere and was stuck there.

[1241] Yeah, in Venice.

[1242] You know, I mean, to be in Venice and have COVID.

[1243] Yeah, it's not fair.

[1244] I know.

[1245] But this movie is very hopeful for people, I think, because we have an idea about what happens when you get older.

[1246] You get more isolated.

[1247] You separate yourself.

[1248] You're done.

[1249] And this is so awesome to see vibrance in older age.

[1250] Yeah.

[1251] Taking matters in our own hands and just say, let's just do it.

[1252] Let's just go and do it and have fun.

[1253] Yeah.

[1254] So the real life experience is mirroring the movie, I'm sure, as you're down there in Italy with your friends.

[1255] and you're going out to eat and you're having this experience.

[1256] I'd imagine being very overwhelmed gratitude in that scenario.

[1257] Major gratitude.

[1258] Every one of us.

[1259] We all miss it.

[1260] We want to go back.

[1261] Big, big gratitude.

[1262] I discovered I had cancer while I was there.

[1263] Everybody else was gaining weight.

[1264] I lost 10 pounds.

[1265] And it was 104 degrees.

[1266] And in spite of that, it was great.

[1267] It was very hot.

[1268] Oh, my gosh.

[1269] It was so hot.

[1270] And I was wearing wool suits.

[1271] I could have killed him.

[1272] Okay.

[1273] I have one last kind of line of questioning in its whole.

[1274] what we talked about a lot at TIF, because I had watched this 60 Minutes segment on Ted Turner.

[1275] It's among my three favorite profiles I've ever seen.

[1276] I didn't really have much awareness.

[1277] I mean, I knew of him, but I never heard him really talk or what he was all about.

[1278] And I related so much to him.

[1279] One thing in particular, the insatiable wanderlust.

[1280] You said Ted has to go somewhere every three days.

[1281] He has to get on a plane.

[1282] The demons are chasing and he's got to keep moving.

[1283] Yes.

[1284] I so related to that.

[1285] I watched it, it was like, well, that's my dream life.

[1286] I have a jet.

[1287] And every three days, I just keep going west and just come back around.

[1288] And that was taxing for you to be the partner of someone like that.

[1289] Ted is one of the most remarkable human beings that I have ever met in my life.

[1290] And I've met a lot of people.

[1291] He is so brilliant to live with somebody who can see things that nobody else can see.

[1292] And then turns out they're right.

[1293] Like a clairvoyance.

[1294] Oh, my God.

[1295] He studied the classics.

[1296] And then he became the greatest sailor in the world.

[1297] because he's strategic.

[1298] You know, this was before computers.

[1299] It was just him and the wind.

[1300] He was in sailboat races where 15 people drowned and died, and he would win by 24 hours.

[1301] I mean, he was a brilliant sailor and a brilliant strategist and beyond handsome and hysterically funny.

[1302] I love him so much.

[1303] We both love each other so much.

[1304] But I was getting older.

[1305] You know, as far as I was concerned, I was through.

[1306] I left the business.

[1307] I was devoting my life to him.

[1308] And it was going to be forever.

[1309] But I didn't want to keep moving.

[1310] I wanted to like go down.

[1311] Like I gave him Tuesdays with Mori.

[1312] I thought maybe that would.

[1313] You know, I kept trying.

[1314] You know, I said, Ted, who are you?

[1315] Beyond the greatest sailor in the world and the creator of CNN and Turner Broadcasting and buying MGM, just so we could own that library and create Turner Classic movies.

[1316] But beyond that, I said, you know, I'm an actor, but it's not who I am.

[1317] It's what I do.

[1318] Right.

[1319] You know, it's hard to compare one person's trauma, yours, to his or whatever.

[1320] Who knows?

[1321] But my first long date with him in Montana when we were driving around his, at the time, he only owned one ranch there, and we got lost because he didn't know his way around.

[1322] But he told me his life story, and I wept.

[1323] Really?

[1324] And he kept saying, why are you crying?

[1325] I said, why aren't you?

[1326] Yeah.

[1327] I mean, it was a traumatic childhood.

[1328] I think it's PTSD, frankly, untreated.

[1329] And it's hard to live with after a while.

[1330] Yeah.

[1331] When you're young, you can live laterally.

[1332] But when you're old, you want to go vertically.

[1333] You want to go down deep.

[1334] And it just couldn't happen.

[1335] You said that while you were married to him, you had your 59th birthday out there.

[1336] You were corraling some bison.

[1337] And it occurred to you, wow, next year will be my 60th birthday.

[1338] The beginning of my third act.

[1339] That's right.

[1340] My last third.

[1341] And you took a year to investigate yourself.

[1342] Well, we would say in a, like, you did an inventory, but you did an inventory of your whole life.

[1343] And you researched yourself like you were a stranger.

[1344] Helped by having a two -foot -high stack of FBI files that I got from the freedom of information.

[1345] Oh, wow.

[1346] In case, I should forget what I did on September 23rd, 90th.

[1347] You met with this Black Panther at this restaurant.

[1348] Right, exactly.

[1349] Yeah, yeah.

[1350] Wow.

[1351] That's gangster.

[1352] That's really cool to have a file of yourself.

[1353] I feel like a failure now.

[1354] But I also like the way you talk about the third act, like in movies, the third act makes sense of the first and second.

[1355] And I love the way you phrased that.

[1356] It motivated me because I realized, oh, my God, this is it.

[1357] This is the last third.

[1358] How am I supposed to be?

[1359] And I realized I can't know how I'm supposed to be going forward unless I know where I've been.

[1360] And I spent a year figuring that out.

[1361] And when I came to the end of that research, I started to like myself for the first time.

[1362] I realized that I was brave and that I was in constant struggle to get better, to be better, to do better, and that I deserve to be loved.

[1363] Yeah.

[1364] I made a video of it to show at my 60th birthday party and there's all kinds of interesting people at that birthday party.

[1365] And a couple of the women decided to get divorced because of that video.

[1366] And that was when the ending of the marriage started.

[1367] Okay, really quick, is that video available anywhere?

[1368] No. And even if it was, I wouldn't show it.

[1369] What if I came over for dinner, would you show it to me?

[1370] I'd love you to come over for dinner, but actually, I don't have it.

[1371] I don't know where it is.

[1372] You don't have it.

[1373] I don't know.

[1374] First of all, I applaud that you made the decision you made, but I was very heartbroken and lovesick at the end of that segment because he fucking loves you.

[1375] It was so hard.

[1376] And it was terrifying.

[1377] I was 62 years old.

[1378] I didn't know what I was going to do.

[1379] I hadn't been in a movie for 15 years.

[1380] And I want the person who's 36 and think is too late for them.

[1381] Exactly.

[1382] That's why it's an important message.

[1383] You think it's scary at 36.

[1384] You did it at 62.

[1385] With someone you were in love with.

[1386] And you can love somebody and it cannot bring you to where you're supposed to go.

[1387] One thing that I left out about the research that I did on myself, see, I watched my father die and I knew I'm not scared of that.

[1388] What I'm scared of is getting to the end and having some real regrets and when it's too late to do anything about it and I knew my dad had regrets.

[1389] And so I vowed on that 59th birthday that, okay, one thing I know is I want to live my 30th, act in such a way that when I get to the end, I won't have big regrets.

[1390] The moment when I realized I was going to have to leave, I knew that if I didn't, I would have regrets.

[1391] And it was that decision.

[1392] That's why it's really important to do a life review when you get to be older.

[1393] And it's not just, then I did that.

[1394] It's really taking the time.

[1395] How did I feel?

[1396] How did I really feel?

[1397] You have to like excavate yourself.

[1398] Because when you do that, it informs how you're going to live the rest of your life and you make the right decisions.

[1399] Are we running over time?

[1400] No, I was worried for you.

[1401] I'd be here forever.

[1402] But thank you for being vulnerable with me. Oh, my pleasure.

[1403] Can I ask you a really...

[1404] I really like you.

[1405] I like you too.

[1406] In fact, this is what's on the tip of my tongue and it's inappropriate, but I feel that this is the question I really want to ask you.

[1407] Do you have a hard time loving a man without it immediately clicking into a romantic love?

[1408] Because, like, I am so attracted to you and so drawn to you as a person and impressed by you that my real thought, if I'm dead honest with you, is if Chris and I weren't married, I would marry you.

[1409] Like, I would marry you at your age.

[1410] I would be delighted to spend whatever amount of time.

[1411] And then another voice says, why are you such a love at?

[1412] Like, why is that the way?

[1413] I'm that way.

[1414] I'm that way.

[1415] I'm that way.

[1416] I'm that way.

[1417] Right.

[1418] Why is that the way I need to love you?

[1419] You know, who was really bad at it was Elizabeth Taylor.

[1420] Oh, Elizabeth.

[1421] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[1422] She set the high bar.

[1423] I just always, it's love.

[1424] And then it's like maybe the rest of my life kind of thing totally i understand where you go from and i kind of mad at myself about it like i would like to be here going like i love this person i'm attracted this person i would like to experience this person it doesn't mean i have to so let's get to know each other better with christian because i want to get to know her too okay wonderful wonderful but i was just curious yes oh my god yes that's an easy promise to make i just was curious it's not an easy promise to make though you know especially when you're older and you're successful the way you are and i am and we're busy so when you want to become a friend of somebody when you're old, I'm going into 86, you have to be really intentional because otherwise there's no time.

[1425] You're totally right.

[1426] I think also sadly what we all suffer from is like the only way we get to see each other if it's under the guise of something professional.

[1427] This is professional.

[1428] I will make the time to come to come to Kristen over for dinner.

[1429] We will come.

[1430] And Lake Bell will come.

[1431] Oh, wonderful.

[1432] She's my friend.

[1433] Yes, wonderful.

[1434] And she and I are really good friends.

[1435] And maybe you know who else I adore is June Diane Raphael?

[1436] Do you know her?

[1437] No. Oh, she played my daughter in Grace and Frankie, she's married to Paul Shear.

[1438] And they're both, yeah, they're comedians, stand -up comedians.

[1439] Well, we just interviewed Paul Shear, and he and I made a commitment to start watching movies together.

[1440] So I'm all in on that group.

[1441] Yes, this is a powerful...

[1442] I can see it all.

[1443] Do you have any food issues?

[1444] I'm not going to bore you with them, but of course I do.

[1445] Of course you do.

[1446] Okay.

[1447] I have psoriotic arthritis, and I have to eat very specifically.

[1448] And then I hate being fred it over, so it's like a double whammy.

[1449] I love to fret over you.

[1450] You would.

[1451] I would.

[1452] I would love it.

[1453] We just have to watch over gluten.

[1454] I really should not eat gluten.

[1455] That's about it.

[1456] Okay, we're good with that.

[1457] Okay, wonderful.

[1458] Gene, this is wonderful.

[1459] It's been so great for me. I was so nervous.

[1460] You were?

[1461] Yeah, because I thought you didn't like me. Aren't we fucked up?

[1462] But anyway.

[1463] But hold on, I do the same thing.

[1464] We're going to be friends.

[1465] I do the same thing.

[1466] We're just twins.

[1467] Why is that?

[1468] I'm just like that.

[1469] Yes.

[1470] Yeah.

[1471] So I so relate to you.

[1472] And it's funny because no one can overcome it either.

[1473] Because I was so outwardly engaged in talking to you.

[1474] Like, or at least my memory of it.

[1475] And when I see in you, what I see in myself, which is like, no one can even overcome that.

[1476] No, I don't think so.

[1477] It'll be that way forever.

[1478] Yeah.

[1479] That's all right.

[1480] Yeah, but it's the fuel in the tank, maybe.

[1481] But you have a loving partner.

[1482] I'm so happy.

[1483] Me too.

[1484] Yeah, I'm really happy for you.

[1485] Yeah, yeah.

[1486] I'm happy for me that I'm alone.

[1487] Yeah, you are.

[1488] I am.

[1489] Okay, wonderful.

[1490] Yeah, I've closed up shop.

[1491] I know you've said that.

[1492] I think I might even ask you that at Toronto.

[1493] I think I wasn't alone in Toronto.

[1494] Oh, you were.

[1495] No, I was with Richard Perry.

[1496] Oh, okay, wonderful.

[1497] Yeah.

[1498] You could have said Adam Driver and I would have believed that as I wish.

[1499] I think we all do.

[1500] Isn't he great?

[1501] Oh, he's tremendous.

[1502] He's tremendous.

[1503] Also from Michigan.

[1504] Was in the military, a real person before he was an actor.

[1505] I know.

[1506] I know all about it.

[1507] Yeah, yeah.

[1508] And do I love Michigan?

[1509] Richard was in Michigan.

[1510] My second husband, Tom Hayden, Michigan editor of the Michigan Daily.

[1511] Your lawyer friend who advised you to get back into show business in an intentional way.

[1512] I spent a lot of time there.

[1513] I used to go to union organizing things there.

[1514] And I was part of fighting for one fair wage for restaurant workers.

[1515] So we traveled to the Upper Peninsula, everywhere with Lily.

[1516] I would drag her because she comes from Detroit, yeah.

[1517] Yeah.

[1518] You've lived a thousand lives.

[1519] I have, yeah.

[1520] Yeah, I'm aspiring to do the same thing.

[1521] And I could go tomorrow and that would be fine.

[1522] I'm ready.

[1523] I'm totally ready.

[1524] Please wait for our dinner.

[1525] Oh, totally.

[1526] Oh, no, no, that's on the calendar already in my mind.

[1527] Okay, wonderful.

[1528] Well, Jane, we love you.

[1529] And I want everyone to go and see Book Club, the next chapter, May 12th in theaters.

[1530] And this is even better, the second one.

[1531] And bring your book club.

[1532] bring your friends bring your mother your grandmother i also love that they're so successful it's so fucking great people are using the word franchise well it is a franchise this is number two women in a franchise listen jane there's gonna be a there's gonna be a third for sure so start thinking of what country you want to go and you'll be in it i'll come out of retirement and i'll do it this is maybe how we do everything could you have a young lover in one of these is that too much to ask i'd be unfaithful to don johnson totally fine dj can handle it he's had some unfaithful moments in his life Hasn't he ever?

[1533] Jane, I adore you.

[1534] Thank you.

[1535] Thank you.

[1536] Thank you.

[1537] I hope we get to talk again soon.

[1538] And I hope we have dinner together.

[1539] Thank you.

[1540] Thank you.

[1541] This has been so fun.

[1542] I agree.

[1543] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1544] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1545] What's it doing?

[1546] It is?

[1547] Oh.

[1548] I don't hear any noises.

[1549] Oh, okay.

[1550] It was probably just shutting out.

[1551] All quiet now?

[1552] Mm -hmm.

[1553] But there's a little lock on the front.

[1554] Let's just take a moment of silence for it.

[1555] Okay.

[1556] Remember a moment of silences?

[1557] Did you guys have those?

[1558] In school?

[1559] Yeah.

[1560] No, we have them in AA.

[1561] Oh, you do?

[1562] Yeah, after a moment of silence for the alcoholic who still suffers, please join me in the serenity prayer.

[1563] Oh.

[1564] We, it was funny to hear me rattle off scripture, like when I know these.

[1565] Yeah, it is.

[1566] Memorized things.

[1567] Yeah.

[1568] Seems against my creed.

[1569] Okay.

[1570] Yeah, in school you would, what?

[1571] In school, it's part of the announcements.

[1572] It was like Pledge of Allegiance and Moment of Silence.

[1573] Moment of silence.

[1574] I know.

[1575] For who?

[1576] Dead people?

[1577] I never even, I, this is the first time I've ever even considered what is that for.

[1578] See, there's a value in questioning.

[1579] No, because it didn't hurt me to take a moment of silence.

[1580] If it was hurting me, then I would question it.

[1581] It was probably good.

[1582] It's probably meditative.

[1583] I mean, that's not why they did it, but it was probably good for you to start the day like that.

[1584] Well, right.

[1585] And if the goal was that, participation in that would be easy.

[1586] Sure.

[1587] If the goal was, let's take a minute to remember.

[1588] The fallen soldiers.

[1589] Fine.

[1590] It's weird to do that every day at school, I guess.

[1591] I bet that's probably more what it was, especially if it's coming after the Pledge of Allegiance.

[1592] Let me ask you this.

[1593] of the moment was to, the full intention in what was just talked about at the school board was a moment for all the babies that had been murdered from abortion.

[1594] Yeah.

[1595] Then you complying in it is kind of validating, right?

[1596] Sure.

[1597] Yeah.

[1598] I think if it was something like that, my guess is they would say, because the whole purpose would be to indoctrinate you into believing that.

[1599] So my guess is it wasn't for something as, uh, intense is that?

[1600] This is a fundamental debate.

[1601] Chris and I get in all the time, which is I'm not somebody who you can hand an object to and say, take that over there.

[1602] I'm entitled to know why I'm asked to do something for somebody else.

[1603] I think I'm like well within my rights to know what I'm participating in because what if it's something I object to?

[1604] Yeah.

[1605] But a lot of people, Kristen in particular, thinks if I hand her a bag and say run and dump that over that, that's all she needs to know.

[1606] There's some value in it.

[1607] I can see where she, her explanation would be like, well, you align yourself with people, you trust who think that they have your best intention in mind.

[1608] And so it cuts down on you having to know it.

[1609] You can just trust the person.

[1610] If they say eat this, you can trust it's healthy for you or they wouldn't have given it to you.

[1611] And maybe interprets questioning as a lack of trust.

[1612] And I think people are, they fall on one end of that spectrum or the other.

[1613] I don't ever want to do something that I don't know what the intention is or the purpose is.

[1614] Well, you don't have to.

[1615] Okay.

[1616] Okay.

[1617] Well, you just worked out.

[1618] Did you have a nice workout?

[1619] I wish I had a little more energy during my workout.

[1620] Maybe some residual exhaustion from the travels.

[1621] June, gloom, or in May. But May gray.

[1622] Oh, May gray.

[1623] That's what they say?

[1624] Yeah.

[1625] How can I don't know May Gray?

[1626] I don't know why you don't know.

[1627] Macy Gray?

[1628] I mean, I think it's stupid because it's supposed to be just June gloom and then we had too much gray in May. So they had to add that.

[1629] So soon there's going to be like April, April.

[1630] Well, I was just going to ask you if you can come up with something catchy for April.

[1631] April's a rough word and you rhyme with.

[1632] April tendrils?

[1633] No. April's tendrils?

[1634] I think it has to be something very negative.

[1635] Well, tendrils, I don't really want any months.

[1636] I love tendrils.

[1637] Tendrils are like my hair in that picture.

[1638] Okay, sure.

[1639] I think of tendrils is cascading and taking control.

[1640] Oh, this works perfectly with the first conversation.

[1641] Oh, I don't even know about that.

[1642] Well, I think of ghouls and monsters and creatures having tendrils.

[1643] Humans don't have tendrils.

[1644] Primates don't have tendrils.

[1645] Mammals don't have tendrils.

[1646] Oh, wow.

[1647] Squids have tendrils.

[1648] Oh, yeah.

[1649] I only think about it in terms of curly hair.

[1650] Oh, you do?

[1651] That's nice.

[1652] Yeah, people refer to it as tendrils.

[1653] And I guess I'm wrong.

[1654] Primates do have tendrils in their hair.

[1655] Curly hair.

[1656] But functional tendrils that are going to maybe have some suckers and leach off you or poison you.

[1657] Yeah, that is gross.

[1658] Wrapped in its tendrils, it just sounds quite scary.

[1659] Hmm.

[1660] Interesting.

[1661] April's tendrils.

[1662] Well, I still want it to reflect that there's a gloominess in the air or.

[1663] Well, to me, it feels like you're being attacked.

[1664] Okay, sure.

[1665] I think you...

[1666] I'll keep working on it.

[1667] You can call it that.

[1668] I'm not going to fight you on that.

[1669] Okay.

[1670] But now that I know why it's called that, I'm not going to call it that.

[1671] So now it's like the moment of silence.

[1672] Okay, great.

[1673] Well, this is kind of connected.

[1674] Is this for Jane Fonda?

[1675] Mm -hmm.

[1676] Oh.

[1677] It's for Jane Fonda.

[1678] And we're talking about the weather.

[1679] And she said she was born on winter solstice.

[1680] She had the most positive silver lining of birthday birthday five days before Christmas, four days before Christmas.

[1681] She loves the winter solstice, and I wanted to read about it.

[1682] It changes, though, winter solstice.

[1683] The day?

[1684] Yeah.

[1685] It's not always on her birthday.

[1686] The lunar calendar's 360 days.

[1687] But maybe the day she was actually born was named...

[1688] Solstice's sun, not moon.

[1689] So maybe it is the same day every year.

[1690] Okay, I'm going to read it.

[1691] about it.

[1692] Okay, read about it.

[1693] The winter solstice occurs when either of Earth's poles reaches its maximum tilt away from the sun.

[1694] This happens twice yearly, once in each hemisphere.

[1695] For that hemisphere, northern and southern, for that hemisphere, the winter solstice is the day with the shortest period of daylight and longest night of the year, when the sun is at its lowest daily maximum elevation in the sky.

[1696] Either pole experiences continuous darkness or twilight around its winter solstice the opposite event is the summer solstice it doesn't commit to a date though we make one full loop of the sun every 365 .25 days right yeah hence leap year sure exactly so obviously on a year with leap year it's going to fuck up the date one way or the other yeah so it has to change well this year's December 21st.

[1697] That's her birthday.

[1698] At 727.

[1699] Is that her birthday?

[1700] I think so.

[1701] Okay.

[1702] So, looking good for her.

[1703] Hold on, because somebody asks, is December 23rd, the shortest day of the year?

[1704] For the northern half of the earth, the northern hemisphere, the winter solstice occurs annually on December 21st or second.

[1705] Oh, or second.

[1706] There we go.

[1707] Thank God.

[1708] The southern hemisphere's winter solstice occurs in June.

[1709] The winter solstice is a day with a few hours of something.

[1710] Okay, we already know.

[1711] We already know.

[1712] We know, we know so much about that.

[1713] We're super abreast of the solstice.

[1714] Yeah.

[1715] I was just listening to, which I have not listened to an episode in quite some time, but I was listening to Sam Harris talk to an NYU philosophy physicist.

[1716] Was it a good episode?

[1717] Because you seemed a little angry when you came out of the gym.

[1718] Oh, I did?

[1719] Yeah.

[1720] Oh, I wasn't angry at all.

[1721] Okay.

[1722] Maybe I was in thought because it was a complex issue about time, the nature of time.

[1723] Does it move forward?

[1724] Is it relative?

[1725] The person deserves credit.

[1726] For Pete's sakes.

[1727] Is it Pete's sakes?

[1728] For Pete's sake.

[1729] Or is it Pete?

[1730] Because I had a shirt once that said as a joke was like a cheeky shirt.

[1731] Uh -huh.

[1732] Tongue and cheek.

[1733] Yeah.

[1734] It said, who's Pete's sake?

[1735] That's St. Peter.

[1736] Sure.

[1737] The biblical Peter.

[1738] But would you, so then, but is it Pete's sake?

[1739] Yeah.

[1740] Let's tell the truth.

[1741] Yeah, so that shirt was not good.

[1742] substitute for Christ's sake Oh oh It's meant to be Because some people say For Pete's sake I think that's why the shirt But they're saying it wrong So the gentleman He was talking his name is Tim Maudlin Which Maudlin is an interesting last name Because that's Maudlin You can say that's Maudlin Right Which means a certain kind of theater Like broad Maudlin Or does it mean Depress?

[1743] Depress.

[1744] you're thinking of morose?

[1745] No, Maudlin.

[1746] I think it means, doesn't mean boring?

[1747] I bet it's spelled different.

[1748] Self pitting.

[1749] Self pitting.

[1750] Or tearfully sentimental.

[1751] Tearfully sentimental.

[1752] Which Tim was not.

[1753] Tim Maudlin is not at all.

[1754] Tearfully sentimental.

[1755] Often through drunkenness, apparently.

[1756] Oh.

[1757] I have a friend named, his last name, is Maldon.

[1758] Oh, like Carl Maldon.

[1759] Yeah.

[1760] Wait.

[1761] Is he related?

[1762] to Carl Mulden, and does he have an enormous nose?

[1763] I always say I have a nice Carl Mulden's house.

[1764] Wait, his name.

[1765] Is Carl?

[1766] Yeah, is dad?

[1767] Yeah.

[1768] No, no, no, no. No, I'm serious.

[1769] Well, it's confusing because it's my friend Robbie's stepdad.

[1770] Okay, Carl Maldon.

[1771] Yeah, that's his name.

[1772] I don't even know about, well, I do, but I'm, it's a whole.

[1773] You would.

[1774] He was in on the waterfront.

[1775] He had legendary career.

[1776] He's in the adventures with, Dax as the protagonist.

[1777] Yeah, the movie version of The Adventures by Harold Robbins.

[1778] Oh, my God.

[1779] And is he Robbie's stepdad?

[1780] Apparently.

[1781] Oh, my God.

[1782] And he had a very older stepdad.

[1783] Wow.

[1784] Very older.

[1785] Anyway, time.

[1786] Yeah.

[1787] Well, among the many things he got to, which I found really kind of neat and abstract, was there's this proclivity, I think, in pop culture that if we understood how every atom worked entirely, and we could track every atom in the universe, that we would be able to predict the future.

[1788] And implicit in that is that your brain is atoms and molecules, too, and those two would be predictable.

[1789] Some model could tell you.

[1790] And this really is the case against free will, which I don't agree with, right?

[1791] I do think we have free will.

[1792] Yeah.

[1793] This gentleman, Tim Modlin, he made a couple of really good points that kind of divide.

[1794] physics and consciousness.

[1795] But he used some simple example.

[1796] So he said math, right?

[1797] Math you would think of as part of the concrete sciences and that it's fundamentally reliant on physics, on how things move and our understanding of physics.

[1798] But he was saying math with completely different physics.

[1799] Let's say we had different physics.

[1800] Gravity repelled.

[1801] It didn't pull things down.

[1802] That math exists still in that world exactly the same.

[1803] Really?

[1804] Yeah.

[1805] Like, no matter what gravity is doing or how atoms interact, one plus one will still be two.

[1806] The math is a, it is a concept and a mechanism that is independent from physics.

[1807] So I think just establishing something that's completely independent from the physical world is interesting.

[1808] because I think consciousness and will is independent of the physical world.

[1809] Right, right.

[1810] Even though the mechanisms of thought are chemical, chemistry, physics, math.

[1811] Yeah, biology.

[1812] But that consciousness is like math.

[1813] It's a thing that isn't actually tethered to the physical world.

[1814] Wow.

[1815] That's very religious of you to think.

[1816] You think it's religious?

[1817] Yeah, I think that's very spiritual.

[1818] a very spiritual way of thinking.

[1819] That there's something untangible.

[1820] I'm going to try to embrace that.

[1821] That's not my ins.

[1822] Like when I present that to you, it doesn't tingle any spiritual things.

[1823] It just simply says physics isn't the full picture.

[1824] Right.

[1825] I like hearing him speak.

[1826] I hear a lot of one -sided take on free will.

[1827] Yeah.

[1828] And this, again, proclivity towards AI mapping every atom and the planet.

[1829] Right.

[1830] and modeling everything.

[1831] Yeah.

[1832] That's not a future I like thinking about.

[1833] The same.

[1834] So I'm always delighted when I hear contrary thought on it.

[1835] I agree.

[1836] I like that.

[1837] Yeah.

[1838] I'd like to have this Tim modeling on.

[1839] Okay.

[1840] Yeah.

[1841] I definitely.

[1842] No, I was just thinking about it.

[1843] Just like you were when you came out of the gym.

[1844] Yeah, yeah.

[1845] Oh, good.

[1846] So you just had a look on your face just now.

[1847] And it's pretty much the same one I think I had when I came out of the gym.

[1848] Yeah, I couldn't remember what I was going to say, so I made that face.

[1849] But, yeah, I believe in free will.

[1850] You do?

[1851] Yeah, I do.

[1852] And I think there's a lot of unknown, and I think it's pretty arrogant to think everything can be predicted.

[1853] But I also am shocked by what AI can do, and increasingly so.

[1854] Oh, yeah.

[1855] It is startling.

[1856] It is startling and it's not a couple years away.

[1857] It has an exponential growth curve and it's going to be unleashed and, you know, let's take the simplest example.

[1858] Like the AI wants to do a fake computer generated announcement by Trump or Biden.

[1859] Yeah, exactly.

[1860] It has the capacity to make 10 ,000 of those.

[1861] Yep.

[1862] And then it has the capacity to release those and monitor the reaction, gather that information, and go right back at it a minute and a half after it played with another refined version that would be even more realistic and then get the feedback of that and refine and that could be done in an afternoon at the speed of which it both creates and evaluates the outcome yeah it's scary it's really scary it could be utah like the truth is we're on the precipice of i don't know it could be utopia or dystopia.

[1863] Who knows?

[1864] It could be utopia.

[1865] I don't see how it could be next Tuesday.

[1866] We could have a complete cure for cancer, for diabetes for, I mean, truly that could be next Wednesday.

[1867] An announcement.

[1868] Yeah.

[1869] It's been done.

[1870] It's been cracked.

[1871] They've already sent it to the lab.

[1872] The lab's already run by computers.

[1873] It's already creating, you know.

[1874] That'd be great.

[1875] That would be like, whoa.

[1876] But I don't think that's utopia for me. Like having every, I mean, of course, I want that, but that doesn't equal to me like a perfect place or a perfect life.

[1877] Well, there's where we get into the big overarching philosophical question that will probably be answered if you have no resistance in your life.

[1878] You have no health resistance.

[1879] You have no food issues.

[1880] You have no need to create any wealth.

[1881] Yeah.

[1882] What will the experience on planet Earth without any hurdles to step over be like?

[1883] My hunch is malaise and depression.

[1884] And violence, I think, because ultimately we are animals.

[1885] We do want stimulation in some way and we want to be active in doing things.

[1886] And I think that is the only thing.

[1887] Well, like, revert.

[1888] I don't like it.

[1889] I'm trying to stay neutral on it until I see.

[1890] going to try to wait till I see some direction.

[1891] I'm not against using it, but the idea that we aren't putting strict regulations, like now's the time.

[1892] This is like if we could go back in time for social media and the internet.

[1893] Yeah.

[1894] Now we know that it can really get away from us.

[1895] Now is the time for AI.

[1896] Like we got to start monitoring and putting regulations now before it's way, way, way too late and all the damage is done.

[1897] Right.

[1898] So I'm for it, but I'm for it in a controlled.

[1899] Okay, so let me ask you a hypothetical.

[1900] So we've now had social media for, I don't know what it's been, 13 years or whatever it's been.

[1901] You can now, Monica Padman can go back in time and you have the sole power to create some laws.

[1902] What law would you even create knowing now that all the data is in for 13 years?

[1903] I think there'd have to be some restrictions on the algorithm, knowing so much.

[1904] much about you and predicting so much about you.

[1905] I don't know.

[1906] I mean, I'd have to, I'd have to ask Tristan Harris.

[1907] Yeah, because what I think is interesting is there's a lot of people calling for regulation on it, but I have yet to hear anyone propose a really concise regulation for the thing we already have that we see problems with.

[1908] I haven't even heard anyone offer a correction for the problem we already started 13 years ago.

[1909] I don't think I think I could ask anyone that question I just asked you.

[1910] And they actually wouldn't even know what law to go enact 13 years ago.

[1911] Well, there were, like, you know, there's been trials where Instagram took away likes on some people.

[1912] That's part of it.

[1913] Like, understanding that these are actual dopamine, they're causing, like, a chemical reaction in your brain.

[1914] Right.

[1915] Maybe if we went back, we could limit those things, the way to get the actual chemical affirmation from it, as opposed to just put up your pictures and not a place to get full validation for your whole life.

[1916] Uh -huh.

[1917] So now here's the part where I'm really pessimistic.

[1918] A, I don't think it's possible to know what barriers to put up, what guardrails to put up.

[1919] I think what's coming is inconceivable to us.

[1920] So first of all, I don't even think we know what the end result will be enough to put guard rails in place.

[1921] I don't think we know.

[1922] Well, right now, like, look at the rider's strike right now.

[1923] They're saying there needs to be some rules with AI in this industry.

[1924] And I fully agree with that.

[1925] This is a time where there can be rules set where they cannot, for scripts, put in your old script and have it write a new script.

[1926] Like that should be in place, I believe.

[1927] So, so, you know, they are asking for it now.

[1928] And now is the time to start enacting some of it.

[1929] So it's like when it comes up especially is, I think, a good time.

[1930] Now, what do you think about, here's the hypothetical.

[1931] So let's say I've returned.

[1932] to script writing and I start using chat g p and g pt thank you gt pt gt gp t dyslexic wetdream yeah the t's first or the pt gpt the p so it's alphabetical that's how i'm going to remember it gp t i hate cracking format that's the least fun part of writing so let's say i have my full idea i pitched the chat gpt to write the script without dialogue um and i like writing dialogue.

[1933] And then so I just go in and I write all the dialogue.

[1934] What's the verdict on that script?

[1935] Or do we file that script?

[1936] I mean, I don't like it.

[1937] I think it's like part of me and I'm a writer in the writer's guild.

[1938] So I speak with someone who's like, I think I'm really close to this topic.

[1939] I'm not positive.

[1940] I think it's a little bit like in an era where there was a whole class of people who carried other people on their shoulders and then the horse came around and people were going to try to somehow legislate that you can't use the horse option because the human option's there and you'll put them out of business for carrying people at some point I think you'd have to go like well the humans can't compete with the horses so I'm really wondering writing's interesting it seems like it's like the first one on the firing block that's not the term is it Firing block?

[1941] Chopping block.

[1942] Chopping block?

[1943] There we go.

[1944] You're kind of asking someone who, let's say a producer.

[1945] Let's just say you're a producer.

[1946] You have an idea for a movie and you can deal with meeting with 12 writers, hearing pitches, then getting a studio to agree to hire that writer, then negotiating for however long on the contract, blah, blah, blah, versus they can use that option.

[1947] It's an interest.

[1948] There's a be a law.

[1949] You can't producer use that option.

[1950] I don't know.

[1951] I mean, I think so.

[1952] personally, yes, I think, because also what AI does, you feed it stuff.

[1953] So you feed it the scripts for the Sopranos to make a mob show.

[1954] So they are using other people's intellectual property in order to do it.

[1955] Yeah, so that part, I definitely think if your writing is giving the machine the know -how, then yeah, you deserve a residual.

[1956] But that's happening a little bit, like if you're writing, you've seen all of this.

[1957] Ooh, great point.

[1958] I've watched fault fiction as well.

[1959] Interesting.

[1960] No. I'm not paying.

[1961] It's not systematically happening like a tool.

[1962] You can't, you can't, sorry, but you can't write like Tarantino, just because you know his voice.

[1963] That is very specific.

[1964] I mean, you could try.

[1965] People try every day.

[1966] There are a million people trying to be Tarantino.

[1967] Some are better than others.

[1968] But no one's him.

[1969] I can actually do that.

[1970] Yeah.

[1971] But Rob's point is really salient.

[1972] Like, my tone that I write in is hugely informed by the movies I was attracted to as a kid.

[1973] I like violent stuff.

[1974] I like naughty stuff.

[1975] I am in many ways trying to write the movies that I loved that I saw, that I responded to.

[1976] And so, in a way, that, like, I don't know what the, there's no objective length to a movie, right?

[1977] I only know they're two hours because all the ones I consumed were two hours.

[1978] And I only know that dialogue that is about a different topic while in the middle of a very heated, exciting thing is an interesting juxtap because Tarantino does it.

[1979] It's a nonstop.

[1980] You know, there's like six assassins, but they're talking about Madonna.

[1981] And that's a useful tool that then gets replicated.

[1982] So in ways, I think Rob's right in that.

[1983] We are AI.

[1984] Well, we're influenced by everything around us and we grow based on influence.

[1985] but we can't, we can't replicate the way AIs can replicate.

[1986] That's why there's this thing.

[1987] There's only five, you know, there's only five stories in Hollywood.

[1988] That's true, but then people make it their own and they.

[1989] Well, same with music, right?

[1990] Every mathematical combination of notes has already been done.

[1991] Yeah.

[1992] Yet new music comes out every day.

[1993] Yeah, because you're filtering it through your own system that is a unique system.

[1994] It's precisely not a robot, which is why it comes out different.

[1995] I think the issue, though, and is who's using it?

[1996] Is this a tool that creatives are using to help with their own work?

[1997] Or is it a studio trying to not have to pay someone and just plug it into this machine and replace all these people?

[1998] The WGA is saying the studios.

[1999] Like, they're against the studios.

[2000] Sure.

[2001] So it's these big corporations that already have a ton of money already.

[2002] They're trying to make even more money, pay less people, and just plug it into this machine.

[2003] Yeah.

[2004] Versus a writer.

[2005] using it for their own process.

[2006] I agree.

[2007] Look, and again, I'm a writer in the guild, but I'm also trying to be objective enough to go, okay, well, let's just say that the AI and a program becomes so sufficient that the three of us don't need an accountant.

[2008] We will have no problem saying, well, no, no, I'm not going to pay an accountant because this thing does it better and it's virtually free.

[2009] So I will have the ability to relegate a whole occupation to extinction.

[2010] I'm free to do that.

[2011] But I'm going to say these people aren't allowed to do the same thing with a job they don't like paying for.

[2012] It's an interesting and weird.

[2013] And again, this is the tipping point of all of it because all these different occupations are going to just fall like dominoes.

[2014] Right.

[2015] That's what I'm saying.

[2016] We have to make decisions now.

[2017] Are we allowing that?

[2018] Are we going to allow for that to happen to all industries so that there are no more jobs?

[2019] That is where this is heading.

[2020] I know.

[2021] That there's a chance where zero people have jobs.

[2022] Right.

[2023] But so that the writer that's in the guild, let's say we win this battle, the writer will be free in the WGA that just had his or her job protected to buy the Google robot that will clean your house.

[2024] and they can fire their housekeeper.

[2025] And no one's going to object to that.

[2026] So I do think you're going to see a lot of kind of hypocrisy, which is like, I'm going to fight for my job, but I'm going to quickly get rid of a bunch of other jobs that I don't want to pay for.

[2027] That's the hypocrisy I feel like is going to be really present through all this.

[2028] Yeah, it is.

[2029] The checkouts at grocery stores and the self -cleaning robots.

[2030] And I actually think the way this will shake out is the way that all of the lopsided economic and quality of this country will do, which is our jobs will get protected and the lower class people will be absolutely fucked.

[2031] Yeah.

[2032] And the WGMA may win, but no one else will win.

[2033] This has to open up those conversations of are we?

[2034] Are we willing to make every job obsolete?

[2035] Yeah.

[2036] And even checkout ones.

[2037] Like there is.

[2038] There's a whole foods in the valley where you can.

[2039] Nobody in there.

[2040] Well, no. can go through this line.

[2041] If you have Amazon, whatever.

[2042] Crime.

[2043] Yeah.

[2044] You just scan your phone on the way in.

[2045] You put your groceries and bags and you walk out.

[2046] Fucking leave.

[2047] You just leave.

[2048] It scans the whole thing for you.

[2049] There's nobody.

[2050] Right.

[2051] And so as a consumer, I want to be able to use that.

[2052] But I, you know, it was really funny, though.

[2053] They did this hilarious SNL sketch where all these black people were like, yeah, we are not falling for that, like walking out of a store with all this stuff, which is really funny.

[2054] Yeah, all these white people are like, oh my God, this is so cool.

[2055] They're like, um, what?

[2056] Anyway, I think it's going to have to be so nuanced.

[2057] Is this a job that is going to create a ton of other jobs for people that we're replacing?

[2058] That's something to weigh versus are we just removing industries completely with no replacements.

[2059] I mean, that's, I hate to say what it, what the future is.

[2060] Truck drivers, a hotel, you just go down the list.

[2061] Medical.

[2062] I was watching the 60 Minutes AI thing.

[2063] And it's like, you'd actually say I want AI to look at my MRI over a human.

[2064] Just the accuracy is in the high 80s versus like 60%.

[2065] So when you tell someone with their own health that they are obliged to use the human.

[2066] Right.

[2067] And then, okay, so if I'm not obliged to use the human for my own health, then were, you and I are assuming the AI can't write Tarantino, right?

[2068] No, they can write Tarantino.

[2069] But let's just assume or let's at least imagine that the AI is better writers than humans.

[2070] Let's just imagine that that's possible.

[2071] Oh, yeah.

[2072] Then, and I'm a writer.

[2073] I don't know what to say.

[2074] If I can't compete with the thing, if the thing's better and you're a consumer, that you worked your ass off to pay your $12 and you want the very best thing, I don't have a huge leg to stand on.

[2075] I mean, I haven't seen it be better than us.

[2076] Right, right.

[2077] But hypothetically speaking, if AI could get rid of writers entirely and the material got better, then you're really campaigning to keep horse -drawn wagons in service in the error of the automobile.

[2078] Well, you are, but it's weighing what's at the other end of this.

[2079] adding a automobile feels like, okay, that's because that gets us places faster so that we can keep innovating and keep doing things.

[2080] This is ending human involvement in the world.

[2081] Yeah.

[2082] So we have to decide, is that a world we want to live in?

[2083] Right.

[2084] Now you've got to ask people to have a product that's inferior because of ethics.

[2085] Yeah.

[2086] And that's fine.

[2087] But we have to acknowledge that, well, now we've moved in.

[2088] into an era of every job's at charity.

[2089] Yeah.

[2090] It's worse.

[2091] You're going to do worse.

[2092] It's going to cost more.

[2093] And we're going to do that.

[2094] I'd much rather live in a world like that than one where zero people have jobs and everyone's sitting around.

[2095] I'm so much rather have to check out, have to stand in a line and check out at the grocery store.

[2096] For that, I am very happy to trade in.

[2097] I agree.

[2098] So I am a conservative right now on this point, which is, yes, I'd like to keep and safeguard what we have.

[2099] But I also can admit the same debate raged at the Industrial Revolution.

[2100] It raged in the electrification of the country.

[2101] It raged in the automotive invention.

[2102] Yeah.

[2103] People never did go out of business the way it was predicted.

[2104] And you couldn't really stop it because people are going to want the better thing and the market will.

[2105] So part of me, some part of me, the the devil's advocate part says, we're assuming the worst.

[2106] We actually don't know.

[2107] We don't know what life on plant earth is with no hurdles.

[2108] I don't know.

[2109] It sounds pretty boring, but again, we don't know.

[2110] And so, you know, a progressive would go like, well, let's find out.

[2111] If we don't like it, we'll change it.

[2112] Yeah, and then that is what I'm saying is proven to be wrong.

[2113] There's no changing.

[2114] Yeah, there's no going back.

[2115] It's either we decide to go down that road or we right now make some decisions.

[2116] And then we get into a much bigger, problem, which is unavoidable, which is great.

[2117] The U .S. decides this.

[2118] Exactly.

[2119] And now Russia uses AI to make movies.

[2120] They make them with digital actors that are American.

[2121] Those movies are better.

[2122] And now they have the biggest film industry.

[2123] I mean, things will change like crazy then because then there will be, I don't know if they'll have the biggest film industry because we might have to have regulations on what we see.

[2124] I mean, things will get crazy.

[2125] Yes.

[2126] And then you get into kind of a dystopian police state where no AI, like AI is the enemy and we're trying.

[2127] And then people are smuggling in just like the people in Soviet blocks were smuggling in Western media.

[2128] Now we're the people who's smuggling in it.

[2129] It's all bonkers.

[2130] It is.

[2131] I think you kind of have to work a little bit backwards from the reality of geopolitical landscape, which is, yes, we could do this if we had full cooperation.

[2132] from every country on the planet, which we don't.

[2133] So then that's a hard fact to admit.

[2134] So once you admit that, then it's like, well, do we want to be ahead or behind?

[2135] That seems pretty obvious, too.

[2136] We'd like to be ahead, which means we kind of got to do it.

[2137] No, I mean, no. I mean, if we're breaking it down simplistically, yes.

[2138] But if, again, it is going to require some major ethical questions of is this how we want to be living as the human race and yeah maybe we can't control maybe it's it's going to do weird stuff to globalization i don't know we might all be very separate at some point due to this and then people will choose they'll move there if they want that or not yeah they'll get on a computer flown airplane and yeah what if a i figures out teleporting like next week next week no not literally could be next week.

[2139] And we could eat Emily Burger for lunch.

[2140] I don't think, you know, I'm willing, I am willing to move to Russia.

[2141] Yeah.

[2142] No, I'm willing to wait till we have our trip plan to New York and have the Emily Burger then.

[2143] Because again, what will happen is we go every day.

[2144] We go for two weeks every day and then we never go again.

[2145] Yeah, you're right.

[2146] Eat out on a treadmill.

[2147] We think, yeah, we think all of this stuff we want.

[2148] We want.

[2149] We'll save us.

[2150] Yeah.

[2151] And we don't.

[2152] No, no, no. Oh, yoy, yoy.

[2153] Anyway.

[2154] Okay, so are you born resilient?

[2155] There's evidence to, yes, there's a genetic component.

[2156] Okay.

[2157] Yeah.

[2158] I would imagine, right?

[2159] There's a spectrum.

[2160] Yes.

[2161] Yeah, everyone's born resilient.

[2162] I'm going to read some now.

[2163] Okay, genetic factors contribute significantly to resilient responses to trauma and stress.

[2164] A range of human genes and polymorphisms, associated with N -P -Y -H -P -A -A -access, noradren -n -n -n -n -nora.

[2165] Nora -drenergic.

[2166] Ooh.

[2167] Dopaminogenic.

[2168] Dopamin, dopam -oh -m -oh -my -god.

[2169] If you read Molecule -a -More, this.

[2170] Dopaminer -dopomenergic.

[2171] Dopaminergic.

[2172] Okay, listen.

[2173] That word is in molecule or more and dopamine.

[2174] nation.

[2175] Yeah.

[2176] Every eighth word.

[2177] And I listen to it on tape and I try to repeat it as they're saying it.

[2178] Yeah.

[2179] And sometimes it takes me all night to be able to say it out loud.

[2180] That's the hardest word I've ever heard.

[2181] Is it dopamenegic?

[2182] Dopamenetic.

[2183] Dopamenogenic.

[2184] No, it's not.

[2185] It's dopamine dopaminergic.

[2186] Dopamineurgic?

[2187] Hmm.

[2188] I'd have to.

[2189] Can you look it up?

[2190] Dopaminergic or dopaminergic.

[2191] Yeah, it's a hard one.

[2192] P -A -M -I -N -E -R -G -I -C.

[2193] I think it's dopamigenic.

[2194] No, because there's an ER.

[2195] I know, but I think that's what they say in the book.

[2196] It's much fewer syllables than what you're saying.

[2197] Dopaminergic.

[2198] Dopaminergic.

[2199] Dopaminergic.

[2200] Dopaminergic.

[2201] Dopaminergic.

[2202] It's switching that.

[2203] Dopaminergic.

[2204] Dopaminergic.

[2205] Dopaminergic.

[2206] Okay.

[2207] Dopaminergic.

[2208] dopaminergic and serotonergic systems and bdnf have been linked to resilient phenotypes NPI's and neuropeptide that produces so so they're all HPA access is the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis genes that regulate HPA access functions play an important role in shaping resilience so all these things in our brains they should change that to allied and stuff of access.

[2209] Yeah.

[2210] It just harkens back to an ugly time.

[2211] Yeah, it does.

[2212] And then epigenetics.

[2213] Oh, epigenetic factors in resilience.

[2214] And you can have varying levels of all that.

[2215] Predict how resilient you are?

[2216] Yeah.

[2217] Do you think you're resilient?

[2218] I think so.

[2219] Yeah.

[2220] I do too.

[2221] Really quick.

[2222] Can you think of times that you quit?

[2223] Like gave up.

[2224] You mean give up?

[2225] Yeah.

[2226] I have very specific.

[2227] It's always the same thing for me. Of when you quit?

[2228] Yes.

[2229] And it's such a unique feeling, which is I'm working on a car.

[2230] Oh.

[2231] I don't have either a part or a tool.

[2232] Something stops me. Or maybe I can't figure it out.

[2233] Uh -huh.

[2234] And I work on it, work on it.

[2235] And my knuckles get bloody and blah, blah, blah.

[2236] And then I quit, which is the weirdest feeling for me. Yeah.

[2237] And then I go away.

[2238] And then I'm ruminating kind of on it for about an hour.

[2239] And then I'm ruminating kind of on it for about an hour and a half.

[2240] And then I think of some other strategy.

[2241] And then I return.

[2242] But the quitting when I quit, I'm certain I'm like, well, I can't do it.

[2243] And then I walk away, which is very hard for me. But if you come back, can we even say that's quitting?

[2244] Well, yes, because at the point that I walk away, I don't have an answer.

[2245] And I don't think I'm going to ever have an answer for it.

[2246] Sure.

[2247] But maybe the resilience piece is that you, the rumination for another.

[2248] You decide, I'm going to, I'm going to go back.

[2249] I'm going to try a different thing.

[2250] Yeah.

[2251] Or, I mean, ultimately, it's like I'm going to get a professional involved.

[2252] Right.

[2253] I mean, I'm not going to, like, just throw the car in the trap or let us sit there and rot for eternity.

[2254] But I just got to think in my normal life, that's the only time I, like, really remember that I often walk away from things.

[2255] Yeah.

[2256] I quit.

[2257] Huh.

[2258] And then I generally don't.

[2259] I think of something.

[2260] That's a good, really good question.

[2261] I don't know.

[2262] I mean, I'm sure I have.

[2263] I guess we like, we quit diets.

[2264] We quit workout routines.

[2265] I don't really start diets, kind of for.

[2266] Well, just two years ago, you went to no meat.

[2267] Oh, yeah.

[2268] I don't, I know, you're right.

[2269] That is a diet.

[2270] I don't consider that a diet because that was for the environment.

[2271] Yeah, but it's a diet.

[2272] It was a way of eating.

[2273] Yeah, you're right.

[2274] And I did stop doing that.

[2275] Or maybe.

[2276] I mean, did you start?

[2277] I did, remember I did, and I had that weird system.

[2278] It was like two days a week I can eat meat for one meal.

[2279] And then one day a week, I can eat anything I want.

[2280] Then two days, it was a little convoluted.

[2281] You're just a conscious quit or just like gradual forgot about it.

[2282] Yeah, I think I just did forget more than.

[2283] Actively quit.

[2284] Yeah.

[2285] But you ever started like a house project?

[2286] Like, I'm going to paint that wall or whatever.

[2287] Oh, God, no. See, I don't even try that stuff.

[2288] I think I know my capabilities also.

[2289] So I'm not really looking at something and thinking like, oh, I think I would never look at a car and think I could be the one to fix this.

[2290] Well, I think part of the reason that people don't think they're mechanical is because I don't think they have the truly just the most basic approach.

[2291] Mm -hmm.

[2292] Yeah.

[2293] Yeah.

[2294] So I don't, I've never either.

[2295] Like it started with, you know, I had shitty cars and they broke all the time.

[2296] And I couldn't afford to get a mechanic.

[2297] I would not think I know, but I would start taking pieces off.

[2298] And I can't, and you could.

[2299] Listen, you could look at some, any part of the car and you could pretty quickly see where it's fastened.

[2300] You'd go, there's eight bolts on this intake.

[2301] and it doesn't appear to be broken on top, right?

[2302] But I can take these eight bolts out and I can put them to the side and I can keep track of those eight bolts and you do that.

[2303] And then you lift the intake off, right?

[2304] And you're like, I took those out.

[2305] I know how to put those back in.

[2306] And you're just keeping track.

[2307] And now the intake's off and you start looking a little closer at some other things.

[2308] Like, oh, I can see the lifters now.

[2309] Oh my God, that piece is clearly broken.

[2310] Or there's oil spurting out right there.

[2311] Or that, right?

[2312] You're going to visually see something and you're just going step by step going like, well, I can remove eight bolts.

[2313] And then guess what?

[2314] I can remove six bolts on that part.

[2315] And then I can remove three other bolts.

[2316] And that's the process of being mechanical.

[2317] Yeah.

[2318] That you trust that if you can remove the bolts, you can put them back in.

[2319] And that's how you teach.

[2320] And then after you've done that several times, now you actually know how to do it.

[2321] But it just starts with taking the cover off the.

[2322] vacuum.

[2323] Well, let me look at how this piece of plastic is over there.

[2324] Oh, I see there's six screws.

[2325] Yeah.

[2326] Let me take those off and I'll take the cover up.

[2327] No, look.

[2328] I'm not even good at like when the dust buster is full and I'm like, how do I get this thing off just to get the lint out?

[2329] Yeah, that can be hard.

[2330] It takes me a while to figure out how to get that off.

[2331] Well, I can tell you that can be harder because every other thing generally has bolts and screws in these quick release bags sometimes it's much harder to find the little button that's supposed to be easy to find but bolts they're impossible to miss because they can't be covered or you can't access them but you know what tools to use to remove them and stuff but again if I put the whole toolbox in front of you and you look at the shape of the bolt you go oh okay that's a hex head it's got six sides Let me go find the thing Well, that's nice that you believe in me like that I believe in everyone I think it's actually just Sorry it wasn't Yeah A compliment to everyone is a compliment to you But you wanted it more specific Yeah I thought it was but it wasn't And that's fine That's totally fine Then I actually feel better about sticking to my I don't think I could do it Oh okay Some people just are more savvy that way That's okay I'm not like mad at myself about that i guess i'm just urging people to try to take some stuff apart and just know that it's as simple as like i took that bolt out i will have to put it back in and i just keep things organized when i take them apart i keep the bolts that go with the intake with the intake then i take the bolts with the distributor and i keep it with that yeah i guess i don't think anyone explains that approach to anyone in school so i don't think they know to think about it that true that's true What's wrong?

[2332] I just looked at my watch and it said 308.

[2333] Oh.

[2334] And I thought, whoa, didn't we just time travel?

[2335] It's still set to four times.

[2336] I had a real, I had a like, whoa, what the fuck happened?

[2337] Oh, my God, that's funny.

[2338] Wait, wow.

[2339] So you're a person, when you go out of town, you change your watch.

[2340] It depends how long I'm there.

[2341] Wow.

[2342] If I'm not there and long, I don't change it because my phone will say the local time.

[2343] and it's easier for me to know what time it is at home.

[2344] But I was there for, I guess, five days.

[2345] And I thought, no, I need to change my watch.

[2346] Wow.

[2347] That shocked you?

[2348] I just didn't know that about you.

[2349] That's why I learned something new.

[2350] Well, it's real hit or miss. It's really like it's a feel.

[2351] It's how long am I there?

[2352] Wow.

[2353] If I'm in, say, England, where the math is actually kind of challenging.

[2354] Yeah.

[2355] I'll probably keep it in that situation, even if I'm there for a couple weeks, just because it's going to be so much easier for me to, check, like, determine what time it is at home.

[2356] Oh, you, because you want to know what time it is at home sometimes.

[2357] Yeah.

[2358] If I'm going to call.

[2359] Oh, sure.

[2360] If, like, you're gone by yourself, I see.

[2361] Or even, like, I got, I'm going to call an agent.

[2362] Oh, you know, I'm still in contact with everyone back here, even if I'm with the whole family.

[2363] Oh, my God.

[2364] Yeah.

[2365] It's fascinating.

[2366] Anyway, okay.

[2367] The tiny marsupial that you said in, in Australia.

[2368] Uh -huh.

[2369] I'm going to read some marsupials.

[2370] Okay.

[2371] Will you know it if I say?

[2372] I think I will, yeah, yeah.

[2373] The first one I'm going to try is the Ningbing.

[2374] No. Oh, it's the world's fiercest and smallest marsupial.

[2375] Oh.

[2376] It looks like this.

[2377] Oh, no, that's too tiny.

[2378] Oh.

[2379] This is the size of like a squirrel.

[2380] Okay.

[2381] What about the pygmy possum?

[2382] Nope.

[2383] Okay.

[2384] It's got a cute name on top of being cute and bossy.

[2385] Could it be the...

[2386] Antichinus?

[2387] I don't think so.

[2388] It looks like this.

[2389] Nope.

[2390] That's too small.

[2391] That looks like a mouse.

[2392] Mouse like marsupial.

[2393] Noombat?

[2394] Numbat?

[2395] No. Okay.

[2396] There's so many marsupials, right?

[2397] We just hear about kangaroos.

[2398] I know.

[2399] There are a lot.

[2400] Maybe wombat's.

[2401] Spot tail, quall?

[2402] Wait.

[2403] Quall or quall?

[2404] Let me see that.

[2405] I don't think that's it.

[2406] But we're getting closer.

[2407] Okay.

[2408] Okay.

[2409] Ooh, those are seldom seen.

[2410] No, these are all out in front.

[2411] This is as fierce as they are cute.

[2412] These are extroverts, the one I'm talking about.

[2413] Oh, really?

[2414] Okay.

[2415] Brush -tailed Foscagale?

[2416] Nope.

[2417] Ooh, the greater bilby?

[2418] Oh, my God, a bilby.

[2419] Is that it?

[2420] I can't see, but no. Oh.

[2421] That's not it.

[2422] It looks like.

[2423] It moves bipedally.

[2424] I mean, it hops.

[2425] Oh.

[2426] It looks like a very, very miniature kangaroo.

[2427] Not a tree kangaroo.

[2428] No, keep going.

[2429] Not a green ringtailed possum.

[2430] No. Not a greater glider.

[2431] No. Yeah.

[2432] Hmm.

[2433] Okay.

[2434] Well, that was from...

[2435] But that left out a bunch of marsupials.

[2436] Well, those were ten weird Australian marsupials you've never heard of.

[2437] Oh, well, no. These are popular.

[2438] Oh, popular.

[2439] I didn't know that...

[2440] Is it a wallaby?

[2441] No, but those are really tiny kangaroos, wallabies.

[2442] But these are even smaller than wallabies.

[2443] Okay.

[2444] read the most common marsupials now.

[2445] Right.

[2446] Right.

[2447] Apossums, Tasmanian devil.

[2448] No. Kangaroo, koala.

[2449] Wombat?

[2450] Nope.

[2451] I love wombat.

[2452] So they look like Ew.

[2453] Wallabies.

[2454] No. And bandicoots.

[2455] There we go.

[2456] Bandicoots?

[2457] I think it's bandicoots.

[2458] Let me see.

[2459] How do you spell bandicoots?

[2460] B -A -N -D -I -C -O -T.

[2461] Ew, it's a rat.

[2462] Ew.

[2463] Um.

[2464] I don't like these.

[2465] That's not it.

[2466] That's not it.

[2467] Keep going.

[2468] That was it for the most pop.

[2469] It was.

[2470] Yeah.

[2471] I'm going to do Australian marsupials.

[2472] Is it a quokka?

[2473] Oh.

[2474] I think so.

[2475] It's got a name like that.

[2476] Q -U -O -K -A?

[2477] Q -U -O -K -A.

[2478] Is it this?

[2479] Hold on.

[2480] I'm doing images on my things.

[2481] It's hard for me to see a little.

[2482] It does look really cute.

[2483] Oh, my God.

[2484] Yes, that's it, a thousand percent.

[2485] It is?

[2486] Look how it's, you got the one of it smiling, you know, leaf.

[2487] Do you have that one?

[2488] With the boy in it?

[2489] No, right here.

[2490] You can't see from here.

[2491] That's what it is of quacas.

[2492] Someone's been screaming quacas at their radio for like the last 20 minutes losing their mind.

[2493] I mean, I've never heard of it.

[2494] They're so funny and bossy and cute.

[2495] Oh, it says they're really friendly.

[2496] Yeah, totally.

[2497] These things are like coming up and talking to us and yelling at us.

[2498] They're used to tourists or they have a little fear of.

[2499] human contact and they'll hop right up to people who are marveling at them.

[2500] Mm -hmm.

[2501] Oh, they're so cute.

[2502] Look at all the dumb pictures of them like, it looks like they're begging for food.

[2503] Yeah, they're cute.

[2504] They're incredibly cute, but they're really bossy, which is so funny.

[2505] Let me read and see if it says it's bossy.

[2506] Stocky build, well -developed hind legs, rounded ears, and a short broad head.

[2507] I want a quaka.

[2508] Is it unethical to have one as a pet?

[2509] Also, invasive spills.

[2510] Species, if we brought it to Los Felis, it might take over the whole city.

[2511] The Quaka is known to live for an average of 10 years.

[2512] And they're nocturnal.

[2513] Oh, I love these little things.

[2514] Do you like them?

[2515] Yeah, I do.

[2516] They're really cute.

[2517] It says it's about the size of a domestic cat.

[2518] I'd have to picture a cat on its ass, like sitting up straight.

[2519] Because they're kind of, like I said, they're hoppers.

[2520] So they're bipedal most of the time.

[2521] So they're like, they're vertical.

[2522] He's on, he likes to stand regular fore.

[2523] On regs, but...

[2524] Yeah, he's not...

[2525] He's not...

[2526] He's not...

[2527] He's not...

[2528] He's not...

[2529] But when you're interacting with them, they're mostly vertical, so it's really hard for me to imagine when a cat looks like vertical to compare the size.

[2530] I don't want to see a vertical cat.

[2531] I don't like that at all.

[2532] I like these.

[2533] I like these more than dogs and cats.

[2534] I'm going to say it.

[2535] They're great.

[2536] I think that was it.

[2537] Let me just do a double check.

[2538] Oh, okay.

[2539] She was giving the figure of the amount of people in California.

[2540] She said $48 million.

[2541] It's $39 .24 million.

[2542] 39 .24.

[2543] Almost 40 mil.

[2544] Yeah.

[2545] Anyway, that's it.

[2546] All right.

[2547] Love you.

[2548] Love Jane Fonda.

[2549] Please report back if you decide to take your vacuum cleaner apart.

[2550] Okay.

[2551] Wow.

[2552] You're asking, okay, if I do that and I can't put it back together.

[2553] Right.

[2554] Then I will.

[2555] Yeah, so you're kind of signing up for that.

[2556] Are you sure you want to?

[2557] Yes, because I have total faith that you'll be able to, be A -B -A -B -A -B -A -B -A -B -A -B -A -B -A -B -T.

[2558] Good -A.

[2559] Go -bye.

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