EXPERTS ON EXPERT: Tal Ben-Shahar

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair experts, expert on experts.

[1] I'm Dax Shepard.

[2] That's who you are.

[3] And you're Monica Padman.

[4] Today we have a very, very fun and interesting guest.

[5] He was a lecturer at Harvard University and a writer in the areas of positive psychology and leadership.

[6] He taught two of the largest classes in Harvard University's history, positive psychology and the psychology of leadership.

[7] His name is Tall Ben Shahar.

[8] and he has some real tips to getting into action on being happy.

[9] He's written The Joy of Leadership, as well as Choose the Life You Want, The Mindful Way to Happiness, and Being Happy.

[10] His latest book, Shortcuts to Happiness, Life -Changing Lessons from My Barber, Should Be Checked Out by Everyone.

[11] He had so many wonderful things to say.

[12] He did.

[13] I wish I could have taken his class.

[14] It made me really feel regret about not going to Harvard and taking his class.

[15] I know, I wasn't even regretting not going to Harvard, but then when I found out about his class, I was like, I should have went to Harvard.

[16] I should have.

[17] Yeah, I didn't do it.

[18] I blew it.

[19] Well, he brought his class here virtually.

[20] Right.

[21] So we now pass it on to you.

[22] Please enjoy Tall Ben Shahar.

[23] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and add free right now.

[24] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[25] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[26] He's an object square He's an option ex parte This is my respite from video My sanctuary away from hair and makeup It's funny You say that no video is your You're away from the screen Well mine is writing Writing is my away from teaching I think we all need these recoveries Right So we also probably share that I've written probably more than I've acted over the last 15 years, and I've quit writing for two years, and I've never been happier.

[27] You quit writing.

[28] Or let's just say, I have not written for two years intentionally, and I can't believe how much happier I am in general.

[29] Yes, the pending homework that is always on your mind.

[30] Like, you're on vacation, yet all you can think of is something that's due, or do you suffer from that?

[31] Yeah.

[32] I think it has to do, at least for me, with perfectionism.

[33] So as I let go of perfectionism, it becomes easier, less stressful.

[34] It does.

[35] There's a great story that really helps me with writing.

[36] Samuel Hutchison was a philosopher, 18th century, the 19th century.

[37] He had an influence on Emerson, on Nietzsche and many others.

[38] And he was a perfectionist and he couldn't write.

[39] So what he said to himself at some point, he said, look, everything that I'm going to write now is rough draft.

[40] At the end of my life, I'm going to write my magnum opus.

[41] But until then, it's rough draft.

[42] Now, he never got to writing his magnum opus.

[43] But in the interim, he wrote amazing prose, poetry.

[44] That is really interesting because Monica has heard me saying here a million times when I talk to other writers.

[45] My mental trick is I give myself permission to write something shitty.

[46] I'm allowed to write something terrible.

[47] The objective isn't to write something great.

[48] It's simply to write.

[49] and then I give myself room to rewrite, and then inevitably, as I look at it yesterday's work, it's not nearly as bad as I gave myself permission to be, but it's all mental hurdles, right?

[50] It is.

[51] It really is.

[52] I like that you use the word permission.

[53] You know, one of my, because of the permission to be human is my mental gymnastics, and I know many of my students have actually used, are using it.

[54] Yeah.

[55] So let me give a brief introduction.

[56] It is important, I think, for people to understand where you come from, how you came to all.

[57] of this.

[58] In short, the headline for you is that you were teaching a class at Harvard on happiness and that it was the most attended class in the history of Harvard.

[59] So I taught the class.

[60] I'm no longer there.

[61] I'm actually now in New York and Columbia.

[62] It was the largest class at Harvard, not in its history.

[63] When I taught it, it was the largest, but there have been larger.

[64] There have been larger.

[65] Okay.

[66] Great.

[67] So you just passed the integrity test.

[68] You could have just rolled on through.

[69] That was Meyer or not yours.

[70] And you could have just benefited from in any way you want it, but you won't do it.

[71] But yes, you yourself have a PhD from Harvard in organizational behavior.

[72] You also have a BA in psych, right?

[73] And philosophy.

[74] Yeah.

[75] A lot of our favorite people to talk to seem to come from the philosophic background.

[76] Yeah, it's true.

[77] Yeah.

[78] Makes sense.

[79] A lot of our heroes.

[80] And then you taught there and you've written a couple of best -selling books being happy.

[81] You don't have to be perfect to lead a richer, happier life.

[82] And then happier learn the secrets to daily joy and lasting fulfillment that was in 2007 and then of course you speak a lot and you as you said you now live in new york and you're not teaching at harvard anymore which interests me greatly how one steps away from something that seemingly is the apex of fulfillment and prestige and esteem and all those things so i imagine that was a difficult decision yeah family decision so right okay so briefly you're from israel originally what when did you come here to the States?

[83] I came in 1992 for my undergrad.

[84] There was at the age of 22 after completing my military service.

[85] Oh, right, because you guys have conscription there, yeah.

[86] Is it two years or one years?

[87] Three years.

[88] Yeah.

[89] Okay.

[90] Fun and games.

[91] Right.

[92] Did you pick up any lifetime skills that you are grateful for?

[93] Yeah, I think patience is an important skill.

[94] Appreciation.

[95] You know, I remember when my fellow students were complaining about the food at Harvard.

[96] And I said, really?

[97] We have ice cream every day you're complaining.

[98] Yeah, yeah.

[99] It's a nice little foundation of perspective, probably.

[100] How did you do with following orders that you couldn't have possibly always agreed with?

[101] That seems to be what would be hard for me. Yeah, it is hard.

[102] And I think if I was in the Army today, I wouldn't have been able to do it.

[103] I think there is a reason why kids go to the Army at 18.

[104] rather than adults.

[105] So you came here and was it, how we understand it, is nearly impossible to get into Harvard.

[106] So how does one get in from?

[107] We're also obsessed with fancy universities.

[108] We've come up with a term unifile.

[109] We are kind of unifiles, we decided.

[110] We went to lowly universities, Georgia and UCLA.

[111] So we, you know, we fetishize certain ones.

[112] But how do you get into Harvard from Israel?

[113] So my childhood was essentially all about squash.

[114] Oh, the game.

[115] The game.

[116] I was a squash player.

[117] I played the professional circuit just before serving in the military.

[118] My goal was to become the world champion.

[119] Of course.

[120] This was my dream.

[121] And then when I was in the army, I got injured and had to give up my professional aspirations.

[122] I could still play, but not at the highest levels.

[123] I met the Harvard squash coach, and he said, you know, we recruit for squash and why don't you come play college squash?

[124] So I looked into it and I thought, wow, this is a great plan B because my dream really was for, I remember at the age of 16 thinking, what am I going to do with my life when I no longer play squash?

[125] Right, right.

[126] After you've had a great career at planes.

[127] Now, just to help us, is squash as big?

[128] What would you compare it to in Israel?

[129] Is it as big as the NHL here?

[130] No, I guess squash would be like lacrosse perhaps here.

[131] Okay.

[132] Could you have made great riches playing squash?

[133] Well, not great riches financially, but it provided me great riches in the ultimate currency, the currency of happiness.

[134] Okay.

[135] But at that time, did you even have an awareness of that or probably not yet?

[136] No, I just was so passionate about it and loved it.

[137] And this is what I, you know, trained for six hours a day.

[138] And I stopped because my body stopped, not because I wanted to.

[139] Right.

[140] So you come to Harvard and do you play?

[141] Or are you in a coaching position there?

[142] No, no. So I play there.

[143] I had to give back all the prize money I earned, which wasn't that much, fortunately or unfortunately, to regain my amateur status.

[144] And I played for the team, and it was really an amazing experience because it was the first time for me really being on a team.

[145] I was an individualist, and I'd been playing for myself all those years.

[146] And suddenly I was part of a team.

[147] So there was both a challenging and enlightening experience for me. Well, they say, I've watched a bunch of different documentaries on professional athletes that retire.

[148] And there's a pretty predictable slope of depression that follows retirement from a professional sport.

[149] And then people on the outskirts of that situation had traditionally thought, oh, it's because they're losing fame and they're losing the amount of money that they're making.

[150] But now it's quite conclusive.

[151] It's the camaraderie that really elevates one's quality of life, right?

[152] That's the hole that needs to be plugged somehow.

[153] Yeah, it's a lot of things that come with.

[154] athletics with sports in general.

[155] The first thing is actually the physical exercise per se.

[156] So one of the best predictors of happiness is how much we exercise to a point.

[157] You know, you can of course overdo it.

[158] But physical exercise has the same effect on our psychological well -being as our most powerful psychiatric medication.

[159] So when I stop playing, at least professionally, I didn't want to play anymore, I stopped doing sports, which was a big mistake.

[160] And it's a big mistake that many ex -professional athletes make.

[161] So sports is important psychological.

[162] as well.

[163] Right.

[164] I'm not a therapist, but if I were a therapist, the first question I'd ask my clients would be, do you exercise regularly?

[165] So, okay, you and I are in lockstep, because I'm sober, I've been sober for 15 years.

[166] I've sponsored a million guys over the years.

[167] And my first question when they call with a problem with their wife, problem with their job is, when's the last time you exercise?

[168] Go do that for one hour, then call me back.

[169] Yeah.

[170] And we'll see if this problem has the same weight as it does.

[171] Yeah, exactly.

[172] You know, and even more than that with my kids, we have.

[173] three kids, I never asked them about schoolwork.

[174] I never asked to look at their report card.

[175] You know, if there's a problem, the teacher will call.

[176] Right.

[177] But I always ask them about their sports, whether it's their dance, my daughter, or their basketball, my sons.

[178] Uh -huh.

[179] Ooh, I need to adopt that.

[180] Yeah.

[181] Yeah, I'm in that, um, that rut if they get home and I'm like, uh, how was school?

[182] Of course, they don't give a shit to tell me. Fine.

[183] Fine.

[184] What did you do?

[185] I mean, they can't remember a single thing that happened.

[186] Yeah, maybe I'll focus more on what the, how?

[187] how they physically got down that day.

[188] Actually, Delta is quick to talk about the monkey bars.

[189] That is her favorite topic.

[190] That's the thing she remembers.

[191] Yeah.

[192] So when you graduate, do you know immediately that you want to be in academia or do you think you're going to go get employment somewhere as a philosopher, one of the many employed philosophers?

[193] Yeah, I was overwhelmed with offers.

[194] Yeah, so, no, initially I went into industry.

[195] I actually worked in a shipping company of all places.

[196] in Singapore.

[197] Oh, no kidding.

[198] Which was an amazing experience because what I did there was I worked in the area of organizational development.

[199] So I would spend months on ships with 30 other crew members, very often 30 from 10 different nationalities.

[200] In many ways it was a lab for me to understand, to explore, whether it's cultures, whether it's...

[201] You get into real intimate conversations.

[202] when you spend, you know, two weeks away from shore just by yourselves.

[203] So this was a fantastic experience for me. And then I did that for a few years.

[204] Can I just ask something really quick about that specifically?

[205] I would just be guessing I've never gone out to sea with any men.

[206] But I would imagine the things that we anchor our identity to quickly erode as we physically leave all the places that those roots exist.

[207] That absolutely happens.

[208] And the other thing that happens is also just the space.

[209] space, so the sea and the nothingness really opens our minds and hearts.

[210] It's meditating for, you know, for two weeks at a time.

[211] And the intimate conversations.

[212] Well, there's a heightened sense of mortality when you're out at sea, isn't there?

[213] Yes.

[214] And, you know, I remember also experiencing my first typhoon.

[215] So we were just outside of Taiwan and, you know, and the captain, you know, assured me there's nothing to worry about, but I worry.

[216] Yeah.

[217] Yeah.

[218] Understandably.

[219] So invulnerability, you know, it's also big, and it's like looking up at the sky when you're in nature or in the desert.

[220] Mm -hmm.

[221] Feel a sense of proportion.

[222] Yeah.

[223] I also imagine all the little comforts that you have that normally can distract you from any kind of self -reflection, introspection, all that stuff.

[224] They're just not there.

[225] Yeah, right.

[226] And, you know, I was there also at a time when there was no internet today.

[227] You know, there's probably internet on most ships.

[228] So we're really detached, you know, once in a while you would get a telex from shore saying, you know, we're changing your chorus or something like that.

[229] But other than that, you're on a retreat, a real retreat.

[230] And was there one thing that leapt out at you the most from that experience?

[231] Yeah.

[232] So I think the thing that leapt out most, and I didn't think about it until years into my research and teaching is the similarity or the universality of people.

[233] So, you know, of the human condition?

[234] Of the human condition.

[235] You know, we were people on one ship.

[236] We were, you know, I'm from Israel.

[237] There were people from Turkey, India, Philippines, England, Croatia.

[238] And ultimately, we all seek the same thing.

[239] And we fear of the same things.

[240] We crave the same things.

[241] There's much more in common among us.

[242] Yeah.

[243] The human being is a human being.

[244] And then also, I would imagine you are getting a real immediate in -your -face experience with the layers.

[245] of culture.

[246] So there's probably all this sameness you're observing.

[247] And then you're also probably witnessing like, oh, wow, these layers of culture are pretty profound.

[248] Did that happen?

[249] Yeah, it did happen.

[250] So for example, you know, I come from, you know, Israel, I've, you know, educated in the U .S. and in England and, you know, individualistic cultures.

[251] And they are much more from collectivist family cultures.

[252] So, for instance, you know, I spend a lot of time with Indians.

[253] And for them, you know, family comes first.

[254] And they're all.

[255] always, you know, thinking and talking to me, you know, I was the psychologist on board, so to speak, you know, talking to me first and foremost about their families.

[256] Yeah, career is important and they need to make money to provide for their families.

[257] You know, it's all about family.

[258] I thought about this, you know, in contrast with our individualistic society.

[259] And what do we think about?

[260] What are our values?

[261] You know, when I spend time at Harvard and with other very successful business people who graduate from top universities and they're not happy.

[262] They focus less on the real important things.

[263] And again, there are cultural differences in terms of focus.

[264] And yet, the need is universal.

[265] Yes.

[266] Well, we can only escape our biology to such a degree, right?

[267] We are a social animal.

[268] These are facts.

[269] We are social animals.

[270] We have in general, we cohabitate with at least 100 people.

[271] We have a pretty predictable family structure, right?

[272] So you could transcend that, but there's going to be some sense that you're off course, a little bit, right?

[273] We can feel it.

[274] Yeah, you know, about 500 years ago, the British philosopher Francis Bacon said, nature to be commanded must be obeyed.

[275] Nature to be commanded must be obeyed.

[276] We need to obey our nature, our instincts.

[277] And as you pointed out, we are first and foremost social animals.

[278] You know, babies, when they were born, they already display empathy.

[279] the connection to others.

[280] Okay, so you get interested in organizational behavior, and then so you go to graduate school to learn more about that.

[281] One of the most interesting interviews we've heard in a long, long time was with an organizational behavioralist psychologist.

[282] Yeah, on Sam Harris's podcast.

[283] What was this?

[284] Adam.

[285] Adam Grant.

[286] Yes, yes.

[287] Yeah, so Adam Grant was my student.

[288] Oh, no way.

[289] When he was as an undergraduate, one of my favorite all -time students.

[290] Oh, how cool.

[291] And, yeah, he's done a lot of amazing work in the area of organizational development.

[292] Well, I was noticing a weird parallel is that he seems to be mildly obsessed with Thomas Edison.

[293] And then you've written a children's book about Thomas Edison, yeah?

[294] Yeah.

[295] So maybe did you infect him with your love for Thomas Edison?

[296] I don't know, but I talk a lot about Thomas Edison.

[297] You know, one of the sound bites that I repeat over and over again in my class, to my kids, to myself, is learn to fail or fail to learn.

[298] Yes.

[299] And Thomas Edison is the role model because, you know, he's probably, no, probably he has painted more inventions than anyone else in history, you know, 1 ,093 or something.

[300] So he certainly deserves a place in the Hall of Fame of inventors.

[301] Very few people recognize or appreciate that he is also the number one failure in the world.

[302] He has failed more times than anyone else we know of.

[303] You know, there's some very interesting research by Dean Simonton from UC Davis.

[304] And he talks about how one of the characteristics among those we refer to as geniuses, you know, the great inventors and producers and creators is that they fail a lot more than other people.

[305] Yeah, to me, the very encouraging subtext of all that was that genius is a game of quantity, not quality.

[306] some regards, which I find comforting.

[307] Because people can get busy.

[308] Now, people can't sit down and have the most profound idea or artistic explosion of all time.

[309] But if they do many, many artistic endeavors or thought endeavors, they will come across some good ones.

[310] I just think that's a democratizing view of genius in some way.

[311] Yeah, very much.

[312] So, you know, and this is Malcolm Gladwell talks about this idea on a 10 ,000 hour investment.

[313] And in anything, you know, I remember having this aha moment when I was 14 and aspiring squash player and I was in a tournament and looking at my role models, people whom I wanted to be like.

[314] I looked at them and I said, I understand how I can actually get there.

[315] I mean, they were a lot better than I was, but I could see the trajectory or I could see the path.

[316] And the path is hard work.

[317] Yes, of course, coaching and learning and understanding.

[318] Ultimately, it boils down to hard work and yes, it is democratizing.

[319] And it's liberating because while hard work is hard, there's also a part there that says it's accessible, accessible to all of us, which makes it easy.

[320] Yes.

[321] Yeah, so you came into this field during an era where in the 80s, I'm guessing, I want to say 88 or something like this, some savvy psychologists or psychiatrists, I'm not sure what you would label them, they start just kind of doing a data analysis of all the different papers that have been written on psychology.

[322] And then in this period, between 1967 and 2000, there are 6 ,000 articles written about anger.

[323] There's 41 ,000.

[324] These are peer -reviewed academic articles written about anxiety.

[325] There's 54 ,000 written about depression while there was 415 written about joy, 1 ,700 on happiness and in life satisfaction at 2 ,500.

[326] So the ratio is 21 to 1 negative studies versus positive studies.

[327] And tell us why that is an intriguing.

[328] observation.

[329] You know, it's both an intriguing observation and an important observation.

[330] And here is why.

[331] So first of all, people who are depressed or experiencing anxiety, they are desperate.

[332] They need help.

[333] And very often psychologists who go into these areas studying depression, go there either for personal reason themselves or people close to them or because society calls and you know, duty calls.

[334] We need to help those people who are suffering.

[335] Whereas other people, people who are doing okay.

[336] I mean, they're not doing great, but they're doing okay.

[337] I mean, that's not urgent.

[338] And, you know, the distinction that Stephen Covey makes between urgent and important, you know, urgent is studying depression, though it is important to study happiness.

[339] And it's important for a few reasons.

[340] One reason is because one of the best preventative measures we can take against depression, against anxiety, is to work on happiness.

[341] That's how we become more resilient.

[342] You know, essentially when we work on happiness or relationships or focusing on our strength or cultivating joy in our life, what we're essentially doing, we are strengthening our psychological immune system.

[343] Now, a psychological immune system doesn't mean that we don't get sad or angry or envious or anxious.

[344] It simply means that we do so less often.

[345] And when we do, we recover more promptly, just like a physical immune system.

[346] system.

[347] We still get sick, but we recover more promptly.

[348] Yeah.

[349] And there's a really interesting parallel happening, it appears to me at least, with that thought process, and the same thought process going into medicine in general.

[350] So we're drawn to pathologies, right?

[351] I remember when I took a psychology class, I couldn't wait to get to the fucking psychopath part with the serial killers.

[352] Like, give it to me. I want to know that juicy stuff.

[353] The abnormal psychology classes.

[354] Yes.

[355] I want to know about the pathologies.

[356] I don't really want to know about someone who's like had a pretty darn happy good content run.

[357] It's just not as interesting.

[358] And then also, if you're a doctor, the notion of identifying pathogens and then fighting them, there's something that's just very, I can see why people are drawn to it.

[359] But now I see more and more people in medicine taking this approach of, well, hold on, instead of blasting cancer or figuring out how to kill cancer, let's look at how fertile the organs are to host cancer.

[360] Maybe we can embolden those organs so that they themselves would fight off the cancer and we don't need to get in there and carpet bomb this whole thing.

[361] with all kinds of radiation and whatnot.

[362] So this parallel seems kind of correlated, yeah?

[363] Yeah, very much so.

[364] In the West, whether it's Western medicine or Western psychology, the focus has mostly been on dealing with illness as opposed to preventing illness or promoting health.

[365] And promoting health is important.

[366] Now, there's also no danger that we will fail to experience hardships and difficulties.

[367] We will, you know, many of my students, especially the young ones, come to me. about a month into the chorus and, you know, they really like positive psychology and they tell me that and they said, you know, we're even thinking about this as our career, our calling, but we're a little bit concerned.

[368] I asked them why.

[369] And they said, look, you know, you talk also about the importance of hardships and difficulties and how we grow from those.

[370] But what if I become so good at positive psychology that I won't have these, you know, difficulties and hardships and serious challenges that you talk about?

[371] And my answer is always the same.

[372] I say to them, don't worry.

[373] Life will take care of you.

[374] Life always takes care of us.

[375] Yeah, everyone goes through a spin in the washer machine.

[376] There's really no way around it.

[377] We have pretty pandemic depression in this country and mental health issues.

[378] And so this is a very big, big problem, right, that is probably affecting more people than I would imagine any other illness that we confront.

[379] It's pretty pervasive.

[380] Yeah.

[381] Depression is pervasive.

[382] The trans, are also not looking good, so there's more depression every year.

[383] It's also spreading around the world, even looking at historically very happy places like Latin America.

[384] They're seeing more depression in Australia.

[385] Depression levels are skyrocketing as they are in China.

[386] One reason is because today we measure better, so there's higher levels of awareness, but that's not the main reason.

[387] The main reason is because there are many, many more people who are objectively depressed.

[388] There are more people who are committing suicide.

[389] You know, obviously, you know, I often ask myself in the field as a whole, we ask ourselves why, why is it?

[390] There are a few reasons.

[391] You know, one reason, let me share with you data.

[392] This is reported by San Diego, Professor Jean Twenge.

[393] And what she does is every five years, we get a measure of the mental health state of teenagers.

[394] Every five years, you know, you look at anxiety, loneliness, suicide.

[395] And every five years, you know, it's, you know, one percent up, one percent down.

[396] Well, the most recent findings is that levels of depression have gone up by over 30 percent.

[397] Levels of suicide over the last five years have gone up by more than 30 percent.

[398] We have never seen anything like it before.

[399] Now, Gene Twengee combed through the data and there's a lot of data on very extensive study.

[400] She combed through it and her conclusion was.

[401] was, and I quote, it is about the ascendance of the smartphone.

[402] Yeah, I was just going to say, as a lay person, I can't imagine ignoring the correlation between the cell phone use technology.

[403] And again, you know, I'm certainly not against technology.

[404] And technology is amazing.

[405] I mean, people are listening to us thanks to technology.

[406] Now, I just met my best friend from when we were 12, thanks to social media.

[407] The thing, though, is moderation.

[408] Yeah.

[409] To me, it feels impossible to do.

[410] Yeah, that's the most elusive word in my vocabulary.

[411] I'm all or nothing on everything.

[412] Yeah, but, you know, there are certain things that we can do.

[413] You know, I recently gave a talk to a group of managers and their spouses.

[414] So, you know, the couples were sitting there in the room.

[415] And, you know, there were a couple of hundred of them.

[416] And then I said to them, we're talking about technology.

[417] And I said to them, so think about it.

[418] Don't tell me, but think about it.

[419] What's the first thing that you?

[420] you turn to in the morning when you open your eyes?

[421] Is it your amazing spouse who's sitting right now next to and everyone, you know, chuckles, of course.

[422] And the first thing that most people turn to is their cell phone.

[423] Because, you know, maybe it's the message that they had been waiting for their whole lives is right there on their, or the world has come to an end and they need to find out.

[424] We found your lost lottery ticket.

[425] Yes, exactly.

[426] And, you know, and then I said to them, technology today for most people is an addiction.

[427] quite literally an addiction, meaning in their brains, there are neural structures that look exactly as alcohol addiction or a drug addiction would look.

[428] Now, imagine this, so you are addicted to alcohol, and every night you go to bed with a bottle of whiskey right next to you.

[429] In attempts, yeah.

[430] I mean, you would never do such a thing, would you?

[431] And it's exactly the same thing when we go to sleep, and the smartphone is right next to us.

[432] So the first simple thing we should do is, you know, keep it away from us.

[433] you know have a have some boundaries boundaries exactly in terms of time in terms of space yeah boy that's um great advice because to just to be honest and own all my imperfections the only reason i don't reach for my phone first is because i'm even more addicted to nicotine so step one is the nicotine and step two i'm more addicted to the caffeine but then once i have those two addictions satiated i then turn right to that phone but it's such a it has to be i think a societal shift because with work and stuff as an adult when you're working, people expect a response within 10 seconds.

[434] And if you don't get it, you're in trouble or you're ruining the rest of everyone else's jobs.

[435] And it feels like you must be the first person on your email responding at 8 a .m. Or like you're a domino in a chain of dominoes and they're all waiting for you to continue on this thing.

[436] Yeah.

[437] Yeah.

[438] That's why, you know, it's important.

[439] And I talk a lot to managers about it because you need to introduce a different culture in most workplaces.

[440] If you want your employees to be creative, if you want them to be productive, if you want them to be at their best, you need to help them set boundaries or lead by example and set boundaries yourself.

[441] Yeah, I would say that looking at that thing for me is antithetical to daydreaming, wandering.

[442] Anything that would launch creativity is actually offline for me when I'm consuming that stuff.

[443] It's just all reward center.

[444] Quick information.

[445] If I don't like that piece of information, I'm on the next one.

[446] And it's, yeah, I'm the little Rhesus monkey and the cocaine distributor in the cage.

[447] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[448] What's up, guys?

[449] It's your girl Kiki.

[450] And my podcast is back with a new season.

[451] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[452] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest.

[453] Okay.

[454] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[455] And I don't mean just friends.

[456] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[457] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[458] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[459] We've all been there.

[460] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[461] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[462] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[463] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

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[469] Generally, if we could differentiate positive psychology from negative psychology, when you would normally sit down with a therapist, the normal questioning would go, what are you struggling with lately?

[470] Or if you're in couples therapy, what issue are you guys wrestling with?

[471] And tell us how positive therapy is different from that.

[472] So first of all, there is an issue with the name positive psychology because it implies that the rest of psychology is negative.

[473] So I would, you know, with the traditional psychology.

[474] So traditional psychologists would first, you know, ask me, you know, what's wrong, what's not working?

[475] You know, why are you here?

[476] Or a couple's counselor would ask, you know, what is the problem in your relationship?

[477] An organizational consultant would first ask, what's not working in your company or what are your weaknesses as a manager, as a leader.

[478] In contrast, a positive psychologist would begin by focusing on what works.

[479] So what's going well in your life?

[480] Let's build on that.

[481] Or what's going well in your relationship?

[482] You know, you wouldn't be here if nothing was going well.

[483] Or what's going well in your organization?

[484] What are your strength as a leader, as a manager?

[485] And it turns out that when we start with a positive question, we get a lot more done and we get it done better.

[486] Managers or employees who focus on strength actually not only are more creative and productive, they're better able to deal with difficulties when these arise.

[487] Same in a relationship.

[488] If you focus on what's working in your relationship, you're in a better place to deal with the inevitable challenges of a relationship.

[489] Yeah, I have to say, I just imagine myself, I have been to couples therapy with my wife, and I love our therapist, so there's nothing against him.

[490] But the notion of what was first asked is what is great about this relationship or what do you love about it or what's working, And I got to hear my partner start with some kind of gratitude for me. I just feel like my defenses would melt.

[491] I too would think, oh, this is something worth fighting for.

[492] It would just put me in such a different mind space that I think could be very productive for change.

[493] I learned a technique from a close friend of mine who's a psychologist, which my wife and I have taken on.

[494] So when we're in the midst of it, you know, in fighting and, you know, real conflict.

[495] then we take a time out or a time in where each of us would tell the other what we appreciate in the other.

[496] And sometimes, you know, we tell the other what we appreciate screaming at them, but we still tell them.

[497] I was going to say, you're good with the kids.

[498] You are good with the kids.

[499] I got to give you that.

[500] And it actually works, first of all, because sometimes it's so ridiculous that it's funny once you start laughing that, of course, changes the, equation, and also it reminds you of the bigger picture.

[501] Because, you know, what happens when when we get angry?

[502] What is road rage?

[503] Road rage is that when we can, the only thing in the world we can see is that, you know, idiot who just, you know, cut us off.

[504] Nothing else matters.

[505] Oh, yeah.

[506] And it gives us perspective.

[507] This is what, you know, Barbara Fredrickson, who was the president of the International Positive Psychology Association, she talks about the idea of positive emotions helping us to broaden and build.

[508] Broaden and build.

[509] It's a very important concept because if you think about painful emotions like anger or sadness, they narrow and constrict.

[510] When I'm sad, when I'm depressed, the only thing I'm thinking about is how terrible things are right now for me. And if I'm able to even experience one pleasurable emotion like gratitude, like love, then I broaden and build and I look at my life from a different perspective.

[511] I see different things that are happening.

[512] That's another fun hack in AA is also many people advise you.

[513] First, write a gratitude list.

[514] Just write 10 things you're grateful for.

[515] Then call me back and let's talk about this.

[516] That's great.

[517] You see this in kids.

[518] I remember reading when we first had our children that, you know, if they get into a really hysteric place, one great move is to put them in a swing because the area of your brain requires you to regulate your equilibrium, requires so much attention that they won't have a choice but to focus on that, even though they're unaware of it, but they will have to stabilize their equilibrium as they swing, and it can be a shift enough to just take them out of that.

[519] So much, don't you think we just need to kind of stop honing in or spiraling over these specific things?

[520] Exactly.

[521] You know, this is also why meditation, for example, can be so important.

[522] And I'm not even talking about meditating for, you know, five minutes and focusing on the breath going in and out that can put many things in perspective and in healthy perspective yeah and that's more under i would say the heading of mindfulness now right yes so mindfulness and it's important to keep in mind that all mindfulness is is present moment awareness so you know many of my students come to me and say you know i find it difficult to concentrate on my breath i say how about music oh i love music okay so listen to music and just do that so not music in the background, but lie down, eyes closed, and listen to your favorite piece of music.

[523] Yeah.

[524] And that's mindfulness presence.

[525] That's meditation.

[526] Well, and then there's some really compelling data because one of the things I heard you speak about earlier was studying kids who are from, you know, poverty, trauma, broken families, all these things that would disadvantage a young kid.

[527] There's many, many groups to be studied.

[528] And traditionally you're studying what are the causes of that trauma?

[529] What are the causes of this and that?

[530] And you cited a study which focused instead on, well, let's look at the few people that are succeeding in these situations.

[531] Can you?

[532] You know, so this is really the foundation of the field of positive psychology, the science of happiness.

[533] It's learning from what works.

[534] And, you know, as we talked about, that could happen in therapy or couples counseling or organizational consulting, as well as in research.

[535] So traditional research looks at the average.

[536] It looks at the majority.

[537] Whereas positive psychology says, yeah, it's important to learn from the average, but let's also learn from the best.

[538] Let's also learn from things that are working.

[539] For instance, if you want to learn about teaching, would you go and learn from the average teachers or would you learn from the best teachers?

[540] Or if you want to learn how to meditate for that matter, would you go and learn from the average meditator on the streets of Los Angeles or from the Tibetan monks who've dedicated their whole lives to it?

[541] You know, same applies with relationships.

[542] You know, if you want to improve your relationship, who would you learn from?

[543] You would learn from your, from the best relationships.

[544] You know, I think about my grandparents, you know, relationship 53 years together in love after 50 years as they were, I'm assuming when they were in their 20s.

[545] I learned a great deal from them and I apply what I learned from them to my relationship, learning from what works.

[546] Also with at -risk population, if you look at these areas, things don't look great.

[547] And yet, there are individuals who've made it and made it.

[548] made it big, are leading full and fulfilling lives, they're thriving, they're flourishing, why not learn from them?

[549] Why not learn from what they have done?

[550] What they have done differently, what they have done right, and then apply what you learn from them to others.

[551] And the more positive psychology has researched this, the more prescriptions it has provided for the general public, because when you study the average, you're describing.

[552] When you're studying the best, potentially you're prescribing.

[553] So what happened, you know, there was an extensive study by the United Nations, UNESCO in particular, looking at intervention programs in at -risk population areas in 32 countries over 50 years.

[554] So whether it's in the U .S., in India, in China, Australia, around the world between the year of 1950 and 2000.

[555] And what they found, sadly, was that the intervention programs that were introduced there didn't make a difference.

[556] in the long term.

[557] Despite the fact that a lot of resources went in, certainly good intentions, very smart people involved, there was no impact.

[558] And then what changed since was that instead of focusing on the problems, on what's not working, they started focusing on what is working, what is working in individuals, what is working in those areas, what is working in the few programs that are making a difference.

[559] And just that shift to focus, which seems in retrospect commonsensical, even obvious, just that shift of focusing on what is working, not on the average, on what is the best that made all the difference.

[560] Yeah, well, there is something almost counterintuitive about that proposition.

[561] So I would just think conventionally you're like, okay, well, this trauma or this situation is causing this behavior.

[562] So I want to get at not the symptom, but the cause.

[563] And if I can treat the cause, I can fix the symptom where in this case it looks like maybe it was better to have a good downstream treatment for it.

[564] I've done a lot of thought about my childhood, and I think it's useful and helpful to unravel trauma and this and that.

[565] But also there's a voice in my head that goes, okay, but what's the game plan?

[566] So what were those kids doing, the ones that persevered and overcame?

[567] Yeah, so that's fascinating.

[568] And the results actually have implications, not just for kids in these neighborhoods.

[569] It has implications for all kids, and in fact, for all adults.

[570] because fundamentally the difference between the kids who were successful and those who weren't, despite their difficult circumstances, was resilience.

[571] And resilience is important for all of us because, you know, as I mentioned earlier, we all experienced difficulties in hardships.

[572] They're inevitable.

[573] So resilience, the ability to bounce back.

[574] Now, what are the antecedents of resilience?

[575] What leads to resilience?

[576] Few things.

[577] One is a sense of meaning and purpose.

[578] So you find it with young kids, teenagers, today, there is, in the words of Stanford professor, William Damon, there is an existential vacuum.

[579] They don't have a sense of meaning and purpose.

[580] You know, you ask them, what do you want to be when you grow up?

[581] You know, many would say, I want to be rich, I want to be famous.

[582] Now, nothing wrong with being rich and famous, but that doesn't contribute to happiness.

[583] That's not enough in terms of meaning.

[584] Sense of meaning is, you know, what difference can I make?

[585] We've seen a lot of rich and famous people go down the substance abuse, whole suicide.

[586] So it would be pretty evident that that's not actually.

[587] And yet you ask many of the young kids today, that is what for them is meaningful.

[588] So a real sense of meaning and purpose.

[589] Volunteering, giving, of course, connected to a sense of meaning contributes a great deal to happiness overall and in particular to resilience.

[590] So people who give are much stronger psychologically than people who don't.

[591] Physical exercise, it turns out that there is a real connection between physical toughness and mental toughness.

[592] So again, today, when kids are sitting in front of the screen for hours and hours a day, it's unhealthy because they're not physically active and it's unhealthy for another reason.

[593] Because the number one predictor of resilience, of happiness for children and adults, relationships.

[594] Face -to -face, real, not virtual relationships.

[595] Well, we've had an expert in here talk about what is happening on a biochemical level when you're actually not face -to -face with the human being, right?

[596] So if you're communicating solely through these devices, that medium rules out you getting an oxytocin release.

[597] There's all kinds of chemicals that happen when we have sustained eye contact, even sustained hugs, all these things, right?

[598] There's a lot of chemistry that requires actual intimate situations.

[599] Exactly.

[600] And there's something else that doesn't develop when we are.

[601] online, and that is empathy.

[602] And empathy is the moral sentiment.

[603] It's arguably the most important emotion that keeps us together as a society, as a moral, sane society.

[604] And levels of empathy are going down because the time people spend together is going down.

[605] Yeah, they're faceless and they're anonymous themselves and the other person's anonymous.

[606] Now, when we talk about happiness, it's also important, again, I probably should have said this at the beginning, but here we are on this windy road, it would be easy to misconstruct what you mean by happiness, right?

[607] You're not saying that a state of elation is obtainable or sustained elation.

[608] That's not your definition of happiness, is it?

[609] Far from it.

[610] When I first started teaching the class, that first year, I had eight students, two of them dropped out, which left me with six, and a broken ego, I must say.

[611] 75 % retention rate.

[612] That's not terrible.

[613] Not for a perfectionist.

[614] I was having lunch one day in one of the undergraduate dorms.

[615] And a student who wasn't taking my class came over.

[616] And he said to me, Tal, I hear you're teaching a class on happiness.

[617] And I said, yeah, positive psychology.

[618] And he said, my roommates are taking your class.

[619] And I said, that's great.

[620] There were two of the six.

[621] I really had to be nice to him.

[622] And then he said, but now, Tal, you've got to be careful.

[623] I said, what?

[624] And he said, Tal, you've got to watch out.

[625] And I said, why?

[626] And he said, because if I see you unhappy, I'll tell my roommates.

[627] And I actually used that in class the following day when I addressed my students, all six of them, I said to them, you know, the last thing in the world I want you to think is that I'm always happy, or that you by the end of the semester will experience a constant high.

[628] There are only two kinds of people who do not experience painful emotions such as sadness, anxiety, anger, envy, frustration, two kinds of people who don't experience these painful emotions.

[629] One, the psychopaths.

[630] Yeah.

[631] And two, dead people.

[632] So experiencing painful emotions, it's actually a good sign.

[633] It means, you know, we're not psychopaths and we're alive.

[634] The problem in today's culture is that we don't give ourselves the permission to be human, the permission to experience these painful emotions.

[635] And they intensify when we're we reject them.

[636] Well, here's the real paradox and conundrum, in my opinion, in mental health, which is on one side, I am pro medication that can help people.

[637] I think there's many, many people that require it.

[638] Their life would be miserable without it.

[639] I am pro that.

[640] Yet there's also increasing depression and anxiety, as we see in every single statistic that comes out.

[641] So I think two things are happening.

[642] One is we now have this notion that we can make everyone the same or everyone, you know, quote, normal.

[643] And so that's encouraging a lot of people to think that their normal malays and discomforts as a human are indeed a pathology that needs medical treatment.

[644] So it's this really tricky thing to make a statement on because I think some people definitely need it.

[645] I also think we're starting to pass on this perspective that you should always feel good and that that's not part of life.

[646] And if you are depressed for three days, that might be a perfect thing for you to be doing at that moment.

[647] And you don't need to freak out and think you have a terminal mental health issue, right?

[648] It's kind of a tricky thing to navigate, isn't it?

[649] Yeah, it's a very tricky thing to navigate.

[650] And it's also very difficult for psychologists, for parents, to think about when is the right time to medicate.

[651] Because obviously, there are people whose lives were saved thanks to medication.

[652] Medication is going to get a lot better over the next five years or other interventions that, you know, play around with our neural pathways.

[653] and synaptic connections, that's all going to change over the next 10 years and we're going to get a lot better at it.

[654] At the same time, there's real value to painful emotions.

[655] There's real value in terms of our ability to experience happiness in the long term, our ability to be empathic and to feel with and for other people, and we'd be losing our contribution to creativity.

[656] A lot of it comes from, you know, difficult experiences.

[657] So it would be a tragedy if we can do a way, at some point with painful emotions.

[658] Yes, and you make a great delineation, which is ridding oneself of anxiety and depression doesn't then equal happiness.

[659] It would be easy to assume that, oh, if I didn't have anxiety and depression, I would then be happy.

[660] It's not a binary thing, where in the absence of that, you will have the other, right?

[661] So even without those things, you would still need to be proactive in achieving happiness.

[662] That's exactly right.

[663] And I think this is also one of the mistakes.

[664] that psychologists have made throughout the years.

[665] And again, I'm one of those psychologists.

[666] And that is that just getting rid of depression, that's enough, that's sufficient.

[667] Let's get you from the negative to the zero.

[668] And no, it's not enough.

[669] It's not enough for two reasons.

[670] One reason is because we can have more.

[671] You know, we can experience excitement and joy and love.

[672] And that's not just the negation of depression, anxiety, or frustration.

[673] And beyond that, when we cultivate those emotions that we, associate with a positive, we're also in a much better position to deal with the painful emotions when they arise.

[674] So in a sense, I'm filling up my resilience bank when I cultivate love and joy.

[675] Yeah, it's like if you're a boat and you're taken on water and now there's a storm, obviously the boat that had not taken on all that water can ride that storm out a lot better.

[676] If you do have these other things, of course, it's going to make dealing with them infinitely harder.

[677] Now, I have over the years been pretty critical of self -help books in that I happen to read one study that said in general, when you look at the data, people who read self -help books often feel worse after reading them because it lays out a strategy that's nearly impossible for anyone to follow.

[678] And now they just feel like they've also failed at that thing.

[679] And then on the other side, you have academia, which has numbers and studies and empirical evidence, but completely inaccessible to 99 % of us.

[680] No one's going to go look through the journals of psychiatry.

[681] And so tell me the difference between what you do in self -help and academia.

[682] How are you somehow in the middle of those two things?

[683] When I was in my early 20s and basically miserable, I turned to self -help literature.

[684] And I remember reading those books and initially feeling the high and buying into the promise of the happily ever after.

[685] Because can I interrupt you for one second?

[686] One component of happiness, right, is.

[687] optimism.

[688] So it can elicit for a period this model that you buy into.

[689] And then so now you're broadcasting in the future.

[690] Yes, this is going to be a nice existence because this is what I'm promised.

[691] So you can live off of that fantasy for a minute.

[692] Yeah.

[693] So this is also, you know, an important distinction that academic research psychology makes between detached optimism and realistic optimism.

[694] Oh, detached hope and realistic hope.

[695] So detached optimism, oh, everything is going to be great no matter what.

[696] Or, you know, if you think, positive, everything will be positive or whatever you...

[697] The secret, right?

[698] Isn't that kind of the secret?

[699] Right.

[700] And, you know, there's a lot of research showing how our beliefs do become self -fulfilling prophecies, but to an extent, you know, beyond believing and hoping, you also need to work very hard.

[701] You need to struggle.

[702] But Michael Phelps didn't become Michael Phelps because he believed that he could be the best swimmer in the world.

[703] You know, he spent, you know, beyond his natural talent, obviously, he spent many, many hours in the pool working hard and struggling.

[704] The same with happiness.

[705] It's ludicrous to think that all you need to do to be happy is have a positive mindset.

[706] You know, it takes work.

[707] It takes hard work.

[708] Just like playing the piano takes hard work.

[709] Just like any skill takes hard work.

[710] The comparison I always make is for some reason everyone has a pretty good grasp on the fact that anyone who's dieted recognizes that a diet for two weeks won't cure the problem forever, that it is going to have to be a daily reprieve, right?

[711] Or exercise.

[712] Anyone who's gotten in shape at one time knows that it didn't.

[713] just sustain itself, right?

[714] All these things are going to require work, unfortunately, or fortunately.

[715] Our mental health is no different than our physical health.

[716] Exactly.

[717] And look at also the research on diet or leading a healthy lifestyle.

[718] The people who succeed are usually the ones who do not succeed the first time or the second or even the third time.

[719] It's fail, fail again.

[720] And the reason why it's that way is because each time we try, we make an attempt, something happened to our neural pathways, something is reinforced, and we may not be ready to persist the third time, but maybe the seventh time, this is when the neural pathway is etched enough, it's embedded enough for us to create a new ritual, a new habit, a new way of living.

[721] So even there, struggle and failure are an inevitable part for most people of success.

[722] Yeah, in my own anecdotal experience, I had seven attempts at getting sober, and for me the difference was, each time I came back, I was a little more receptive to the things I didn't previously want.

[723] I was like, let me see what you got here.

[724] Oh, you got 20 suggestions.

[725] I think I can get by with 10 of those.

[726] I don't want to deal with the other 10.

[727] I would fail.

[728] I'd come back.

[729] I was open to trying to the 11 of the 20.

[730] And then by God, I found a, you know, I'd not claiming that I've taken on all 20 of the suggestions, but I found a number and I was available enough for instruction that I finally, it was the tipping point and I could hold on to sobriety.

[731] some great work by Jeffrey Schwartz, who's from your alma mater, from UCLA, on dealing with OCD.

[732] And one of the things that he talks about was, so let's say, you know, you have this urge to go back and check the door again.

[733] And he says, even if you resist it for one second or for, you know, five seconds, think of something else and then go and check the door, that one second, those five seconds, over time make a difference.

[734] Because the next time you can resist it for six seconds and then on and on, So, in other words, what he's saying is don't undervalue the importance of failure.

[735] Sure.

[736] It's an inevitable part of success.

[737] Or the incremental steps.

[738] Yes.

[739] Yeah.

[740] And so one of the things you said about self -help books that I liked was it's basically most of them, and I'm sure there are many exceptions, but most of them lay out something that's going to basically require great willpower.

[741] And please use your brushing your teeth example because I think this is brilliant.

[742] on you.

[743] I always ask my students in class.

[744] So I'd like you to put your hand up if you've set New Year's resolutions over the years and you fulfilled all of them.

[745] So virtually no one's no one's hand.

[746] I mean, you know, maybe one in 2000 put their hand up, maybe.

[747] And then I asked them a second question and I asked them, okay, now put your hand up if you brush your teeth this morning.

[748] And of course, everyone puts their hand up.

[749] And I say, why the difference between the two?

[750] why nobody fulfills New Year's resolutions and everyone brushes their teeth every day.

[751] And the difference is that brushing your teeth relies on habits, on rituals, whereas what you need with New Year's resolutions or birthday resolutions, you need self -discipline and willpower.

[752] And we have very little self -discipline and willpower.

[753] We are creatures of habit of rituals and setting rituals while setting them require some self -discipline if we take on small steps at a time.

[754] So this month, for the next four months, all I'm going to introduce into my life is regular physical exercise or a regular gratitude exercise.

[755] Just one ritual at a time, not two, certainly not five.

[756] That's doable.

[757] And once it becomes a ritual, it's easy.

[758] You don't need willpower to brush your teeth.

[759] You don't need motivation in order to do it.

[760] You just do it.

[761] Yeah, certainly on a diet, you can feel that anyone who's taken on some kind of exercise.

[762] I have had many different diets because of arthritis and always the first 10 days are just misery and then I kind of just look up week three and realize oh I ate that way for a week and a half and I didn't really even think about it and that's like the sweet spot and then of course I was all stupidly break it and put my toe back in the water the interesting thing though is even after you break it it's easier to go back because by then you already have going back to the brain neural pathways that are associated with that so it's like almost like riding a bike or or coming back from vacation after you haven't exercised.

[763] If you exercised before getting back on track doesn't take that long.

[764] Well, I can tell you in my own case, I had a failed New Year's resolution for a couple years, which was no more road rage.

[765] And I just couldn't achieve that.

[766] I failed at it.

[767] And then I had to go, okay, this year, you're just not allowed to get out of your car.

[768] That's how bad my road rage was.

[769] And I said, you can do everything, but you can't step out of your car.

[770] That was year one.

[771] And I was able to do that.

[772] And then the next year was no more honking.

[773] I'm allowed to honk if someone's about to hit me, but I'm not allowed to honk just to let someone know I'm piss.

[774] That was fucking hard, but I got through it.

[775] And then it became, then the next year I was like, okay, no more yelling anyone.

[776] I can be mad.

[777] I can be upset, but I'm not going to yell at my car.

[778] And then I've worked it down to no staring.

[779] And I got to say now, after about five years of doing this, I do drive around pretty peacefully, but fuck, it took me breaking it up into all these little things.

[780] And Because when I just tried lockstep to do all of it, I couldn't do it.

[781] I have a trick, a technique that I learned from my barber.

[782] So my barber says every time someone cuts him off, he imagines that instead of an SUV cutting him off, a cow just cut him off.

[783] So that's his mental, you know, gymnastics.

[784] And I've actually started using it.

[785] And it's good because, you know, you start laughing when you do it.

[786] and your mind can't hold two contradictory emotions at the same time.

[787] Amusement and anger don't go hand in hand.

[788] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[789] Can you tell me why we should resist this notion of the binary of happy or sad or happy or depressed or how is that not helpful to us?

[790] You know, so ever since I got into this field of happiness studies, and people hear my story, you know, that I got in, I came in for personal reasons because I was unhappy.

[791] Can I ask you really quick, what things do you think were leading to your unhappiness?

[792] It was the illusion that success leads to happiness.

[793] Yeah.

[794] So this is the illusion that I lived under when I was a professional squash plan.

[795] And I said, you know, once I win this championship, then I'll be happy.

[796] You know, once I get this title, then I'll be happy.

[797] Later, it was, if I get into this university, then I'll be happy.

[798] And I kept on seeing that, yeah, I was happy for a week, two weeks, and then I went back to, you know, to my previous state.

[799] I didn't know the research then.

[800] Today I know the research, you know, for example, on tenured professors, you know, for 15 years, this is what they want.

[801] And when you ask them, how will you feel when you get tenured, they say happiest they'd ever been in for how long for the rest of my life?

[802] because everything changes now.

[803] And when they do get it, as they predicted, it's probably the happiest day of their life.

[804] And then two weeks later, they're back to where they were before.

[805] Yeah.

[806] And it's this illusion that's making so many people unhappy.

[807] You know, we were talking earlier about drugs and alcohol and suicide among the very successful.

[808] And the reason is because, you know, people for many years are told, when you make it, then you'll be happy.

[809] now you may be miserable in school and anxious and overwhelmed and depressed, but don't worry, when you get in to, you know, that university of your choice or get that dream job or become rich and famous or partner or partner, exactly, or tenured, then you will be happy.

[810] And then some people make it and some people make it big and they become very successful and they can have everything that they want, you know, in terms of money and partners.

[811] You know, they're revered and they make it and they're happy.

[812] And then a week goes past or six months go by and they go back to where they were before.

[813] Only this time, they no longer have the illusion that once they make it, they'll be happy.

[814] And you know, the main difference between sadness and depression is that depression is sadness without hope.

[815] So they no longer have the hope that one day they'll be happy.

[816] And then they turn to answers outside of reality.

[817] Now, how do you exit reality?

[818] alcohol, drugs, or the ultimate exit, suicide.

[819] Yes, so profound.

[820] I often say a similar message on here, and I would imagine it's hard for anyone to actually believe me. So I like hearing that you had that just in the world of academia, and do you think some of it is just your ego is what's giving you that euphoric bliss of having to achieve something because you've gotten an elevated status.

[821] And then just unfortunately, the gas runs out of ego quite quickly.

[822] It's not a very sustainable place to be regulating from.

[823] Yeah, it's, you know, it's what psychologists like Daniel Kahneman and other is called the hedonic treadmill.

[824] You know, we're on a treadmill and, you know, we get what we want and we experience this hedonic joy.

[825] But then we get used to it.

[826] We adapt.

[827] And, you know, a week later, two weeks later, we need the next one.

[828] Only the next one, you know, the treadmill becomes even steeper and more difficult because we need more than we had before to get the same kick.

[829] Yes, you have to top it.

[830] And then I would imagine the saddest example of this.

[831] I come from a very working class area, a suburb of Detroit.

[832] And for most of those people, they're telling themselves, happiness will be something granted to them when they finally retire in Florida.

[833] So now you're waiting 65 years for this thing to happen.

[834] And then I can't imagine, maybe for some people, but I have to imagine it's not unlike obtaining some title.

[835] Shit, now I'm in Florida.

[836] I'm the same person.

[837] I just now don't go to work.

[838] So we have a lot of fairy tales about sustained happiness through some achievement or state.

[839] And these fairy tales contribute to a lot of unhappiness.

[840] That's another, you know, of the grand illusions that, you know, happiness comes when you no longer need to work.

[841] Yeah.

[842] In fact, when people look at the moment -by -moment experience, people experience more happiness when they're working than when they are at leisure or doing nothing.

[843] Yeah.

[844] Another of those illusions is we're most creative when we're under pressure.

[845] No, we're not.

[846] We may be producing more when we're under pressure because we have no choice, but we're certainly not more creative and innovative.

[847] Or children, children actually believe that when they are playing computer games, they're happiest.

[848] They're not.

[849] They're unhappy, and it contributes to unhappiness later.

[850] In moderation, again, it's great in moderation.

[851] Beyond a certain point that doesn't provide the high anymore.

[852] One thing that was taught to me by your countryman, Yovall Harari, what's interesting is we have two selves, right, or minimally we have two selves.

[853] So one of them is the experiential self, and that's the person playing the video game.

[854] Well, you can't argue with that person, that person is elated or they're happy or they're content, whatever it is.

[855] But the narrative self that's going to construct the story of your life when you lay down at night, you can't write a good story from having spent the whole day looking at a video game, right?

[856] So you're kind of always in conflict with this narrative self and this.

[857] experiential self.

[858] Especially given the fact that we live the narrative self for much of the time.

[859] So let's say I sit for four hours in front of the screen, then I have to live with the consequences because my narrative self is what I'm experiencing, when I'm thinking to what I could have done during that time.

[860] There's another element here.

[861] There are certain activities that are very easy to get into.

[862] Like TV games, it's immediate gratification.

[863] It's more difficult to get into a book.

[864] However, the benefits in the long term are much greater.

[865] You know, it's a little bit like the difference between a one -night stand and a long -term relationship.

[866] Both have value, doctor, both have value.

[867] Not dismissing the former.

[868] But you can get to the depth and the joy and the real happiness that you get from an intimate long -term relationship that you do from a quickie.

[869] And by the way, I would hate for someone to be inclined to think that we're saying like all fun things are ultimately not going to pair well with your narrative so but that's not the case at all because tennis say which is harder to learn than a video game i've never played tennis with friends and then regretted it that night or it didn't jive with the narrative i wanted to tell like that for some reason to me seems like a great use of time this is a very important point that you bring up you know there are essentially two schools of thought that have disagreed for for millennia and the two schools of thought are One says, you know, you need to dedicate your life to becoming better.

[870] It's all about the future.

[871] It's about improvement.

[872] You know, some of these narratives even talk about it's for the next life.

[873] It's not even about this life.

[874] Yeah, if you're deeply religious.

[875] If you're religious.

[876] So it's all about the future.

[877] But we see it also with people who are secular.

[878] You know, it's about, you know, getting into that top school.

[879] Okay, you got into that top school.

[880] Now get that job.

[881] Now get that, you know, promotion.

[882] And now raise the perfect child.

[883] Exactly.

[884] And, of course, it doesn't end there.

[885] No, no. So this is the future school, you know, what I call the ret race school.

[886] And then, on the other hand, you have the present school.

[887] They say, look, you know, that doesn't yield good things.

[888] Look at the unhappiness in the world.

[889] It's counterproductive.

[890] Think about the moment.

[891] Present moment.

[892] It's all about the now.

[893] Again, that's very binary.

[894] It is binary.

[895] And the question, you know, which one do we choose?

[896] And the answer is yes, meaning we need to synthesize between the two.

[897] Because on the one hand, we are future oriented.

[898] We think about goals.

[899] You know, one of the things that gives us, you know, meaning and hope and optimism is having future goals, the way we look at ourselves and the way we look at the world.

[900] We want to have these future goals.

[901] At the same time, we're also not just future -oriented, we're present -oriented as well.

[902] And, you know, hedonic pleasure is important, you know, whether it's playing a TV game or in a sexual encounter or in listening to our favorite music.

[903] And this is also important.

[904] We need to be able to merge the two in a happy life.

[905] It's not one or the other.

[906] It's the end rather than the or.

[907] And don't you think the human pursuit is ultimately moving that dial left and right and experimenting and going, okay, well, I was solely dedicated to getting into Harvard.

[908] I didn't love how I felt then.

[909] But then I got there and I made more time for friends and social things and I slid over.

[910] And that was good.

[911] But then I went on that spring break, blah, blah, blah.

[912] Now I'm a little less happy.

[913] And then sliding it back and forth.

[914] Like, it's got to be a bit of an experiment per person, right?

[915] Very much.

[916] So, you know, Gandhi, called his autobiography, my experiments with truth.

[917] He didn't say my finding truth, my experiments with truth.

[918] And I think, you know, if experimenting was good enough for Gandhi, it's good enough for us mere mortals.

[919] And you're absolutely right.

[920] It's about experimenting and trying.

[921] There are some people for whom it's more about, you know, going for those goals and achieving, and that makes them happy.

[922] And for other people, you know, it's more about, yeah, having a goal, but more about focusing on the present.

[923] So there is a continuum, in other words.

[924] It's not the binary.

[925] Either I'm future -oriented or I'm present -oriented.

[926] You know, where do you reside on that?

[927] And there are different periods in life or different experiences during the day when we're more present -focused versus future -focused.

[928] Yeah, and I don't have much advice for anyone.

[929] I try to steer clear of that.

[930] But I am in a town with millions of aspiring actors.

[931] So I don't know that you could go to a town that there are more people waiting for their dream to come true because you can't get an entry -level job at acting, basically.

[932] You either get hired or you don't.

[933] And the few bits of advice I've had for younger actors is like, please don't wait to start living your life until you get hired as an actor.

[934] Because it's very, I myself was susceptible to that.

[935] It took me 10 years to get employed as one.

[936] And I was basically waiting for my life to start until I got employed.

[937] And then the times where I was happy were when I could forget about that for a minute and not wait to start living my life.

[938] because, you know, I had said it on some course.

[939] This is the thing.

[940] The question is, what does contribute to happiness?

[941] You know, even look through the list of things, you know, relationships contribute to happiness.

[942] Regular physical exercise contributes to happiness.

[943] Being mindful, present contributes to happiness, accepting, embracing all emotions, painful as well as pleasurable, contributes to happiness.

[944] Now, these are things that you can do when you're, you know, a superstar actor or when you're, you know, a way to waiting to be called for an audition.

[945] And also, I would really urge people to write that list down because as you're feeling terrible, as we all will, maybe even today you're feeling terrible, maybe it'll be tomorrow, maybe I'll feel terrible tomorrow.

[946] A list is helpful.

[947] I think a checklist is very helpful.

[948] Yeah.

[949] I think you're recommending what sounds to me like a really great list to be mindful of.

[950] Yes, exactly.

[951] And the important thing is to remind ourselves to do all those things.

[952] When you have a list, you have a reminder, you know, have that list in front of you, because, you know, if you ask people, so do you want to take life for granted or do you want to appreciate what you have?

[953] You know, it's a no -brainer.

[954] It's a rhetorical choice.

[955] Of course, you know, I don't want to take for granted and want to appreciate.

[956] So remind yourself to do so until it becomes a ritual.

[957] You know, today I have a ritual, actually, since the 19th of September, 1999.

[958] I have a ritual where every night I write down things for which I'm grateful, at least five.

[959] things for which I'm grateful.

[960] I started it because Oprah told me to do.

[961] Oh, yeah.

[962] She's a good person and take guidance from.

[963] She said it before the research on gratitude came out, which was, you know, three years later.

[964] But today I have a ritual, so I don't need a reminder.

[965] But I want to adopt that because my darkest hours are always as I'm going to bed.

[966] They're always the worst for me. It's when I start really forecasting into the future and I'm foreseeing obstacles, I'm foreseeing challenges.

[967] I'm rehearsing fights that are going to happen, so I get my wordage correct.

[968] You know, that's when I really start living in the future for me is when I lay down at night.

[969] And I do wonder if just being reminded before I hit the pillow of the things that are working and are just fine and I'm grateful for might curb that.

[970] Yeah.

[971] So, you know, this is actually one of the things that contributes to a better, more peaceful sleep.

[972] Another thing that contributes interestingly to a good sleep is making lists of the things that you will need to do tomorrow or even just keeping a journal because in a way you're clearing your mind and your subconscious is saying, okay, now I can let go.

[973] Because it's all written down.

[974] It's on the list.

[975] In general, by the way, I'm a fan of journaling, of writing.

[976] Karen Hornay, she was a student of Freud and broke away from him later, focusing more on the light rather than the darkness, she has a book called self -analysis.

[977] And in it, she writes about just how far we can go by writing about our experiences.

[978] So, you know, people who can afford a therapist, that's great.

[979] So it's wonderful to be able to talk about things.

[980] But even if we just write about things that we go through, that can go a long way.

[981] Now, you mentioned the value of a to -do list or the value of a gratitude list.

[982] Now, so what's obvious to me is I can answer at least one of these questions.

[983] is knowing that you had kind of achieved a couple different things back to back and then realized, huh, that's just not filling the whole.

[984] I assume that the work you're doing now became your purpose or one of the things you decided to make your purpose.

[985] So how did you dig your way out of that feeling in your 20s?

[986] What I did is that I did, meaning I took action.

[987] And until today, I think, you know, words are valuable and, you know, that's what I do, you know, for a living.

[988] That is my calling to teach.

[989] However, I always emphasize in my lectures.

[990] I said, okay, now, you know, you've heard it and I recommend you read about it and you look at the wonderful field of positive psychology in the, you know, happiness studies.

[991] Most important, though, is to take action.

[992] Because it's when we take action, when we experiment, when we experiment, when we experiment, when we experiment, when we experiment, when we experimented, when we experimented, when we experimented.

[993] A lot.

[994] I asked questions.

[995] So, you know, my most recent book is about conversations with my barber.

[996] Oh, okay.

[997] What is the title?

[998] So much.

[999] I hope it's conversations with my barber.

[1000] It is the subtitle.

[1001] Oh, okay.

[1002] So what's it called?

[1003] It's called shortcuts to happiness.

[1004] Short cuts.

[1005] Short cuts.

[1006] Uh -huh.

[1007] Yeah, not my idea, but it was my publisher's idea.

[1008] Yeah.

[1009] And, you know, because I learned so much from Avi who was my barber, and I've realized, that, yeah, we can learn a lot from self -help books.

[1010] We can learn a lot from our barber or our, you know, taxi driver or an academic study that was conducted.

[1011] So it's important to listen and then to personalize it, to apply it.

[1012] Try the things out and apply it and try it out realistically.

[1013] I mean, not with the expectation, okay, this is the answer.

[1014] This is going to change my life radically forever.

[1015] No, it's all about small incremental changes and there are ups and downs and, you know, if there is an important lesson that I've learned, you know, in my 25 years in this area, is that I will continue to experience ups and downs for the next 25 years and hopefully beyond.

[1016] Yes.

[1017] The best relationships are not ones where it's live happily ever after or ones where there are ups and downs and conflicts and difficulties that are resolved and that's how you become more intimate and happier together.

[1018] You know, life is difficult at times and it's important to accept it to embrace it.

[1019] Yeah, the pride and esteem that comes from having worked through something really difficult to me is trumped the initial explosion of dopamine and whatnot when I first saw the person.

[1020] You know, there's like some kind of foundational difference when you guys have worked through things together and grown through hard things.

[1021] Because that's where intimacy is created and intimacy is the foundation of a healthy long -term relationship.

[1022] Now, so will you just speak about suppression of emotions and why this is a very dangerous endeavor?

[1023] Yeah, so there is a paradox at play when it comes to painful emotions.

[1024] And the paradox is that when we suppress the emotions, whether it's anxiety or sadness or anger, when we suppress these emotions, these emotions actually amplify.

[1025] They actually grow.

[1026] They intensify.

[1027] So I do this experiment, which is taken from the work of Daniel Wagner.

[1028] where I asked my students, okay, now don't think of a pink elephant.

[1029] Do not think of a pink elephant.

[1030] And of course, what happens, everyone thinks of a pink elephant.

[1031] Why?

[1032] Because when we try to suppress a natural phenomenon, the phenomenon intensifies.

[1033] Same with painful emotions.

[1034] When we suppress them, they intensify.

[1035] Well, your body or your mind is telling you, hey, we got a problem that needs addressing.

[1036] And then so if you start trying to suppress it, it just yells it louder.

[1037] That's right.

[1038] And what we're doing is we're blocking the painful emotions.

[1039] and ultimately, you know, it's like a pressure cooker.

[1040] It has to explode.

[1041] You know, so there's research, for example, on people who say to themselves, by the way, more women than men in this research, say to themselves, don't be angry.

[1042] You know, it's not feminine to be angry.

[1043] And what happens, they actually become more angry.

[1044] And what else happens is that they are more likely to get sick because suppressing emotions is unhealthy.

[1045] With men, it's often more often.

[1046] don't be weak or vulnerable, don't cry.

[1047] And of course, what happens, they become even weaker and more fearful.

[1048] Vulnerability to me and men is the apex of strength.

[1049] Yes, absolutely.

[1050] Courage is not about not having fear.

[1051] Courage is about having fear and going ahead anyway.

[1052] And we're in the best position to go ahead anyway when we first embrace our fear.

[1053] We're most likely to act generously and benevolently when we own our anger.

[1054] Right.

[1055] So on the surface, to me, that sounds a little abstract.

[1056] Like, how does one do that?

[1057] So, yeah, please help me. Yeah, so one of the ways to do it is, you know, I mentioned it earlier by journaling, by writing about it.

[1058] Because when I write and when I openly write, I'm expressing my emotions.

[1059] Another way is to cry.

[1060] You know, shed a tear.

[1061] How important is that for mental health and physical health?

[1062] Talk to people about it.

[1063] To our BFF, share.

[1064] Yeah.

[1065] You keep circling this notion.

[1066] Find someone that has what you want and ask them how they got it.

[1067] So I would imagine similarly if you are dealing with some kind of anxiety, depression, stress, fear, and you know someone that you look up to that has also gone through that.

[1068] Like, why not just ask that person what was their road out of that?

[1069] That's good.

[1070] And that's important for two reasons.

[1071] One is because they'll actually, you know, possibly give you good advice.

[1072] Second, it's because you're seeing someone who's been through it and emerged or continuously emerges from it.

[1073] So you're seeing a role model and that creates hope.

[1074] Right.

[1075] It's helpful to take some time and identify who your role models are, right?

[1076] Yeah.

[1077] Role models whom, you know, we know, it could be a parent, a grandparent, friends, teachers, or a role model we read about.

[1078] Right.

[1079] You know, I always...

[1080] Oh, yeah, you have a thing about biography.

[1081] Yeah.

[1082] Yeah, so the best self -help books are not the ones that give you the five steps to happiness or the secret to the good life.

[1083] And they're not my books either, unfortunately.

[1084] The best self -help books are biographies, good, solid biographies because you get it all there.

[1085] You get reality.

[1086] Yeah.

[1087] So you get the failures and the hardships and you get the successes and the joy.

[1088] Oh, I couldn't agree more.

[1089] The most inspirational biography I've read is the Ulysses -S.

[1090] Grant one by Ron Chernow.

[1091] Have you read that one?

[1092] I have not read it.

[1093] Oh, is it incredible?

[1094] Because you know you grew up just going, oh, Grant, he's on a $50 bill.

[1095] He must have done something great or whatever denomination he's on.

[1096] I know he's a president.

[1097] He must, you know, whatever.

[1098] This guy was a failure at everything he tried.

[1099] I mean, he had a particular military genius, and he could lead people in an amazing way.

[1100] But financially, he was in ruins always.

[1101] He was living with his father -in -law in between the war.

[1102] He had lost money.

[1103] And he'd get -rich quick scheme he was in and he'd lose.

[1104] he was an alcoholic he battled alcoholism but man he had this one gift and he ended up defining most of his life by this one gift and it's just kind of i found it more inspirational than any other story it's just no there were more flaws than there were assets in his toolkit yeah it reminds me somewhat of of lincoln's biography uh where you know he failed time and time again He wasn't elected as, you know, whether it was for Senate or, you know, when, you know, he was a, you know, failure politically time and time again.

[1105] Then he became, you know, arguably the most important president of this country.

[1106] Another thought is Winston Churchill, who also, he was not a successful politician.

[1107] And then war broke and his best came out as, you know, the leader of the free world.

[1108] Yeah.

[1109] So we'll just say is that we recognize a very flawed guy.

[1110] I mean you were going to say that.

[1111] Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of critique recently of Winston Churchill.

[1112] But if you only, if you just look at his speech to England when they were getting air rated, that deserves recognition.

[1113] Absolutely.

[1114] The way he inspired a broken country.

[1115] Yes.

[1116] But that's also an important point to realize every biography or autobiography read or every history that we understand, it's not flawless.

[1117] It can't be flawless.

[1118] And the thing is not to look at it as a package deal.

[1119] So it's either perfect or, you know, we discard it and there's nothing we can learn from it.

[1120] I listen to a lot of lectures online or I go to lectures and people always say, you know, so should I go to it or is it a waste of time?

[1121] And, you know, even the worst of lectures, you know, I pick things up.

[1122] You know, it could be I pick things up that I don't want to do as a teacher or I pick up, you know, a nugget that I then take on and, you know, changes the way I live or teach.

[1123] Yeah.

[1124] So it's important not to look at things as a package.

[1125] And today, as a culture, we've been doing it.

[1126] we've been dismissing people, histories, just because they were flawed.

[1127] We're all flawed.

[1128] It's a given.

[1129] I would argue it perpetuates one of the people's biggest stumbling block is that when they find a role model or they find something they're aspiring to, they know they have secrets and they're a piece of shit on some level.

[1130] And so they go, well, I'm not that person.

[1131] And that's simply because we've been painting a false picture of all these people.

[1132] So I find it weirdly more comforting, more relatable when I go, oh, this guy was sucked at this.

[1133] was short -sighted on this, far -sighted on that.

[1134] He was a xenophobe here, but he was inclusive here.

[1135] To me, I find that to be more helpful.

[1136] Absolutely more helpful.

[1137] And also, the thing is when our expectation is to find someone who's flawless, it means that we're also expecting this of ourselves.

[1138] And that means we're less likely to act.

[1139] I've made so many mistakes in my teaching, in my parenting, in my relationship, you know, and, you know, I've learned from them, and I hope I'll continue making mistakes.

[1140] If I didn't act, I wouldn't have made those mistakes, but then I wouldn't have learned and grown.

[1141] So mistakes are important.

[1142] I agree.

[1143] We shan't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[1144] It says, you know.

[1145] Yeah, and again, going back to this idea of, you know, Gandhi, my experiments with truth.

[1146] It's about experimenting.

[1147] And, you know, if we had only taken on experiments where we knew we would be successful, what's the point?

[1148] Boring.

[1149] Right.

[1150] You know, experiments are, some of them will fail and a good thing that they would.

[1151] Yeah, and I think we all need to be given the latitude to fail and learn and trial and error our way through.

[1152] Okay, so your new book is called Not Conversations with My Barber, Shortcuts to Happiness, Conversations with My Barber.

[1153] Is that out yet or when does that come out?

[1154] It's out.

[1155] It's out right now.

[1156] Okay, great.

[1157] So Dr. Tal Ben Shahir, you're an amazing person to talk to.

[1158] I'm really glad that this is your purpose and that you're spreading this.

[1159] And I understand you do it kind of now as a profession as well, right?

[1160] you have an organization called Potential Life, one word, potential life.

[1161] And you go around and you talk to organizations and you talk to schools and teams and all this.

[1162] Yes, through Potential Life, my partner, Angus Ridgway and I work with organizations.

[1163] And I just also co -founded the Happiness Studies Academy, where we offer online courses in happiness studies, whether it's for people who just want to become happier as well as for teachers, consultants.

[1164] and psychologists, we have doctors.

[1165] To your point, that would be a way to take action.

[1166] So you would type in this address.

[1167] Where do people find this website?

[1168] It's on my website, talbenshahar .com.

[1169] Talbenshahar .com.

[1170] So go there, take action, work out, make a gratitude list.

[1171] And you two could be as happy as Monica Padman.

[1172] Thank you so much for your time.

[1173] It was a pleasure.

[1174] I hope you'll come back with your next project.

[1175] Thank you, Dex.

[1176] Thank you very much.

[1177] Thank you, Monica.

[1178] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1179] Now I'll know what love and you cost, babe.

[1180] Now we're up to talk in divorce, and we won't even marry.

[1181] On my own, this isn't how it was supposed to be.

[1182] You know that duet?

[1183] Michael McDonald and Patty LaBelle.

[1184] It's ringing a bell.

[1185] It's ringing a LaBelle.

[1186] Oh, it's ringing a Patty LaBelle?

[1187] Yeah.

[1188] That had nothing to do with facts, but that's okay.

[1189] I've decided sometimes they're not going to.

[1190] Okay.

[1191] You know, like, when a song's that good, you just want to sing it.

[1192] I just want to come in with a song.

[1193] That was fine.

[1194] Ben Tal Shihar.

[1195] Yeah.

[1196] Did you walk away with any new tactics for sustained happiness?

[1197] Oh, yeah.

[1198] I mean, the reason I wanted him to come on, I read an article.

[1199] I think it was in maybe a New York Times article basically about why so many young people are depressed, which he goes into obviously in the show and says, you know, it has to do with wanting all these things and thinking all these things are going to give them what they want and they get them and then it doesn't and then it's hopeless.

[1200] So that's what we talk about so much on here.

[1201] So I was like, oh, this is a great bit.

[1202] Invited him on.

[1203] I kind of took a piece.

[1204] out of it that's really I think just technically confirmation bias where I was like oh I value physical activity and my kids a lot yeah he's saying that's good boom yeah felt good about that yeah and I'm now taking his technique of just inquiring about what physical activity they did throughout the day because I'm always like what did you do they hate that question what did you do today and then I got to kind of just pull it out of them and you know yeah now I'm asking like what physically happened in the day I bet their memory of those things is also more retained it's Proving to be a little more on the surface, yeah.

[1205] Yeah, that's great.

[1206] Well, supposedly, because both of them eat shit a couple times a day, right?

[1207] So they come home with scratches and bruises and whatnot every day.

[1208] So, you know, they got something to point to.

[1209] Yeah.

[1210] Battle wounds.

[1211] Injuries.

[1212] I liked that he said that he does a gratitude list every night.

[1213] Oh, yes.

[1214] That is something I want to start doing.

[1215] I've been wanting to do that, and I have not done it.

[1216] Yeah.

[1217] Yeah.

[1218] But I will.

[1219] Busy, busy, busy.

[1220] Well, it's just, I forget.

[1221] Yeah.

[1222] It's just that.

[1223] Well, we couldn't have done it last night because we entertained your parents.

[1224] That's right.

[1225] My parents are in town.

[1226] What a hang.

[1227] You guys walked in at potentially the worst time possible.

[1228] We're about to watch.

[1229] I think you should leave.

[1230] We're showing Gordon Keith, our good friend Gordon Keith, who was visiting a sketch about someone eating a receipt and they think someone else had maybe got duty on that receipt.

[1231] That's right.

[1232] It is a very broad and grody sketch that we think is tremendous.

[1233] That's right.

[1234] So you and I think both were a little nervous that your parents weren't going to love it.

[1235] Yeah, I didn't really think it was up their alley.

[1236] I said the same thing.

[1237] And then by God, your dad had a laughing fit that I didn't know was in him.

[1238] Yeah, I know.

[1239] I mean, I hate to break your heart, but he laughs like that a ton.

[1240] Yeah.

[1241] And sometimes it's out of discomfort.

[1242] Oh, really?

[1243] Yes.

[1244] This seemed like uncontrollable, sustained laughter.

[1245] Yeah.

[1246] I hope that's what it was.

[1247] I think it was.

[1248] Now, I'm not going to say that your mother found the show enjoyable, nor will she seek it out and watch it?

[1249] I don't think so.

[1250] But she didn't not like it.

[1251] She didn't not like it.

[1252] She was not Judge Miller or anything.

[1253] It just didn't.

[1254] But your dad, I wonder if you were there if you would have concluded.

[1255] I heard it.

[1256] I know it.

[1257] You heard it?

[1258] Trust me. I know him.

[1259] He's my dad.

[1260] Yeah, yeah.

[1261] I know him pretty well.

[1262] I know that laugh.

[1263] And sometimes it's.

[1264] because he thinks things are funny and sometimes it happens out of discomfort.

[1265] Okay.

[1266] And I think he wanted you guys to feel comfortable because we prefaced the whole thing with not thinking they would like it.

[1267] He didn't want you to feel like that.

[1268] Well, the confusing part to me, though, was like, I feel like I'm good at a courtesy laugh, what that sounds like.

[1269] Yeah.

[1270] His was really a full bore laugh.

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] Still, how do we know?

[1273] Yeah, I think I know.

[1274] But you know, yeah.

[1275] Anyway, I hope.

[1276] he loved it and it was a great chat i've been having a lot of fun times with them since they've been here you have yeah it's been really nice i got to say they're in my top tier favorite parents to chat with that's nice what a nice compliment yeah because you're of course you know i particularly drawn to your father for whatever reason because you like dads because he's a dad yep and then he's just wicked smart and he has this whole other perspective which is he grew up in a another country that's completely different from the one I grew up in.

[1277] Yeah.

[1278] And I find it really fascinating when he kind of educates us on those things.

[1279] Yeah.

[1280] I do too.

[1281] I enjoy him.

[1282] Do you think you have the generic issue that a lot of us have where mine is I played a certain role in my household growing up and then I've kind of, you know, created a different role for me in my friendship circle and my adult life.

[1283] Yeah.

[1284] And when I go home, I feel like I get sucked back into my old role.

[1285] Totally.

[1286] And it kind of gets exhausting and then I get a little cranky.

[1287] I know.

[1288] I know what you mean.

[1289] And I think that definitely exists.

[1290] I think it really exists more in old friendship circles for me anyway.

[1291] Sure.

[1292] But that doesn't make me cranky.

[1293] I just notice it.

[1294] Like we fall into patterns.

[1295] But with them, it's not that I've not, I don't feel like it's a role, but it is a mood.

[1296] It's a mood.

[1297] I definitely fall into a similar mood.

[1298] or I mean really I think what it is is they're just an outlet for me to...

[1299] Of the safe space.

[1300] Yeah, they're a safe space.

[1301] Yeah.

[1302] So they get sort of the brunt of all of my stuff and I think there's an anticipation of that a little bit like and then guilt because I know that's coming so it's a lot.

[1303] But I have not felt that on this trip.

[1304] Yeah.

[1305] So it's been good.

[1306] Oh, good.

[1307] Yeah.

[1308] So tall, you know, taught at Harvard.

[1309] Yeah.

[1310] which we love Harvard.

[1311] And Unifiles.

[1312] Yeah.

[1313] But it's not our number one.

[1314] Our number one is Stanford, right?

[1315] Although I do think Harvard's fancier.

[1316] I know.

[1317] I think Harvard's the number.

[1318] If I really had to pick a place now, yeah, I would not pick Stanford.

[1319] You would not?

[1320] No, which is interesting.

[1321] Because I definitely back then liked the idea of Stanford.

[1322] Mm -hmm.

[1323] I kind of feel you.

[1324] Yeah.

[1325] Now I want a kind of time travel.

[1326] I feel like going there would be like an entirely different feeling that I get everywhere else.

[1327] Like I would be confronted with the history of the place.

[1328] I would feel old -timey.

[1329] It might be like a whole persona I could click into.

[1330] Stanford seems too flexible that I would just be me there.

[1331] Yeah, I also maybe think it's because, you know, we both did not grow up on this West Coast.

[1332] Right.

[1333] So there was something really cool about that that now is unfortunately not cool anymore because it's a regular yeah yeah yeah so now it's like east coast seems like a fun thing to do for a few years you know yeah i told you i had that fun uh afternoon when lincoln was like four months old and i was working there and we took a blanket to and just hung out to harvard oh i didn't know that i was shooting in boston and then we might have even ridden bikes there then we had a blanket and we laid out in the like commons area and the grass and it happened to be the day that everyone was dropping their kids off to start school.

[1334] Oh my god, nostalgia.

[1335] And I was just watching all these beautiful, there's something so beautiful and optimistic about that moment and they're proud and the kids excited.

[1336] It's just an apex of the child parent relationship.

[1337] And we were just witnessing it on a scale of like 500 people, hugging and carrying luggage.

[1338] I felt like I got to just a voyeur on the whole thing.

[1339] Yeah, your favorite.

[1340] I loved a voyeur.

[1341] You do, you love it.

[1342] Yeah, that moment, and they have so much fun ahead of them.

[1343] That's a real exciting day.

[1344] Now, on to voyeurism real quick.

[1345] You know how Dr. Alex was telling us that there are people with trauma who will, is a non -damaging solution to their trauma work with a dominatrix, and then they give the Dom rules and everything, and I found that to be a very interesting thing I never knew about.

[1346] BDSM.

[1347] Are there people who.

[1348] want to be spied on.

[1349] Are there people, I guess they would be exhibitionists.

[1350] Yeah.

[1351] So I wonder if you could create some kind of like you could buy like opposing six story building somewhere in some town and stock one side.

[1352] People get to check in.

[1353] It's a hotel.

[1354] It's a voyeur exhibitionist hotel.

[1355] Okay.

[1356] And then you basically stay on either the exhibitionist side or the voyeur side.

[1357] And then the two people can kind of coexist in a fulfilling manner.

[1358] I do wonder though if the voyer would feel like it wasn't authentic like would they get the same charge knowing that the person was in on it i think the high of that is that they don't know you're looking i don't know you tell me you're the one who likes it well i just in general love nudity and that again goes that's cross -gender i i want to see anyone plodding around their apartment nude and just like what are they doing are they making a bowl cereal are they going to something sexual about to happen are they going to use the restroom yeah what is going to happen.

[1359] But voyeurism isn't just about nudity.

[1360] Maybe for you it is, but I think as a wider proclivity, some of it is just observing somebody else's life and being separate from it.

[1361] That too is fun.

[1362] Yeah.

[1363] Yeah.

[1364] Because I think when I'm like, when I've watched people in New York in their apartment, yeah, and they're just eating dinner maybe in front of the TV, I can totally watch that.

[1365] And I'm thinking like, oh, I guess we're all the same.

[1366] We all are at some point in a room by ourselves.

[1367] There's something about it when you observe it from the outside.

[1368] It looks weird, but when you're in it, it feels very natural.

[1369] Yeah, I know.

[1370] It's like you're watching a movie.

[1371] Again, it's that that thing that maybe Sam Harris has talked about why one of the big appeals to movies is that you get a perspective you can't get in real life where you can stare at someone's face uninterrupted and watch their emotions without getting self -conscious.

[1372] I wonder if there's something about that happening when you spy on someone.

[1373] Probably, yeah.

[1374] I like the idea of your hotel.

[1375] Okay.

[1376] I think we should start it.

[1377] Should we invest in that?

[1378] Sure.

[1379] Okay, I'll start looking for dilapidated buildings that mirror each other.

[1380] Great.

[1381] Yeah, we have to put some kind of facade up in front so that onlookers from the street can't just stand in the street staring at the exhibitionist.

[1382] Because people could be walking their children.

[1383] Oh, yeah.

[1384] They could be triggered by that nudity.

[1385] Yeah, it'd have to be like a compound of some sort with big fences and you'd have to show ID and pay to get in there.

[1386] Maybe background check.

[1387] Now we're really losing money.

[1388] Probably a background.

[1389] Yeah, like a Google campus for...

[1390] It's not for money.

[1391] It would be for charity.

[1392] Oh, okay.

[1393] This is a philanthropic endeavor.

[1394] Yeah.

[1395] Okay.

[1396] I think so.

[1397] I'd like to keep some of it, but okay.

[1398] All right.

[1399] Well, you have enough, I think.

[1400] So we'll give it a way to research on parapherias.

[1401] Oh, okay, great.

[1402] Okay, so he corrected you because you had said he had the most popular class at Harvard, largest class at Harvard and he said no he at one point did but since then there have been others wouldn't it be mind -blowing if it was a class on crankiness yeah or a class on outrage or how to be outraged that'd be interesting yeah probably not that it's not a record breaking 818 Harvard students that's nearly 12 % of the entire college enrolled in one popular class computer science 50 oh wow isn't that interesting Introduction to Computer Science.

[1403] Pulled in 100 more students than the 700 that signed up last fall, making it the single largest class in the course is 30 -year history, as well as the biggest class at Harvard College this semester.

[1404] Sorry, I don't have that exact date of when this is.

[1405] Right.

[1406] Could have been five years ago.

[1407] You know, but now we get into that thing we were talking about last night with Emmy nominations and all that.

[1408] If you were the lecture of one of the biggest classes in Harvard history, that's great.

[1409] It doesn't have to be number one of all time.

[1410] But it's fun to be number one.

[1411] Yeah, you enjoy it.

[1412] Yeah, I like it.

[1413] Again, I have never been number ones.

[1414] I don't know.

[1415] You tell me, it's a, it feels good.

[1416] In a elated state.

[1417] I think so.

[1418] Second, at that time, was economics 10A, principles of economics.

[1419] Interesting.

[1420] These are not what I would have picked.

[1421] I don't want to take either of those classes to be dead honest with you.

[1422] I know.

[1423] Me either.

[1424] Huh.

[1425] Maybe I should have looked at like electives, because maybe most people have have to take these.

[1426] Yeah, that one feels like a core class.

[1427] Econ does, yeah.

[1428] Not the computer science one, but the Econ class for sure does.

[1429] Well, you see ECHON?

[1430] Yeah.

[1431] ECHONTOLA.

[1432] I bet, I'll have to look it up, but I bet at my, at UGA, one of the classes that's the most popular, again, electively, would be abnormal psych.

[1433] It was hard to get into.

[1434] Oh, sure.

[1435] A lot of people.

[1436] We're all perversely interests.

[1437] in the broken mind of a psychopath.

[1438] Yeah.

[1439] Yeah, me too.

[1440] Or I had like a criminal psychology class, I want to say.

[1441] That's fun.

[1442] Ooh, it's tasty.

[1443] Yeah, they're fun.

[1444] I loved that one.

[1445] We had a few of those in Anthro.

[1446] We had like, I had a witchcraft class, anthropology of witchcraft.

[1447] Ooh, that's cool.

[1448] That was spirits and witchcraft.

[1449] That was really fascinating.

[1450] What did you learn?

[1451] Well, this is a great example of like, there's two worlds.

[1452] And I acknowledge both.

[1453] I'm drawn towards one world.

[1454] over the other.

[1455] And that is the empirical world, the fact -based world.

[1456] I feel comfortable in that.

[1457] It feels like the world then be gets predictable.

[1458] But my professor, I believed her.

[1459] Like I came to know her and I believed her.

[1460] She believed in witchcraft?

[1461] Here's what she believed in.

[1462] She had done her work in sub -Saharan Africa.

[1463] She was there to study spirit possession, which of course she went there with a very Western empirical point of view.

[1464] Yeah.

[1465] She did something that angered someone.

[1466] Someone put a spell on her and she got violently ill and she could not come out of it and she was like stuck in a little one room house for a while basically dying and they brought in a shaman and it took the spirit out of her and she completely recovered obviously you can go straight to oh is that psychosomatic is that placebo is it blah blah blah blah is it a psychological dip mm -hmm what did the guy really do is it you know but all that aside this is what I'm talking about the two different worlds which is it's not really relevant this person who had this experience yeah that's her experience i agree and i believe her yeah and i also believe i told you this too i used to work with a lot of filipinos back in detroit oh maybe wab can pipe upon this too i might know a few yeah uh wabobb was married to a half philippina let's just be honest about it but anyways the philippinos i worked with anecdotally they all believed in ghosts oh okay they all had these stories that were so detailed one of them They had hit a ghost on the road, and then the goo from the ghost was dripping down the windshield, even though they were going like 80.

[1467] It had a goo?

[1468] Mm -hmm.

[1469] Okay.

[1470] Some kind of, you know, discharge from being hit.

[1471] I don't know if it was ghost blood or ghost plaza or something.

[1472] Oh, wow.

[1473] But anyways, I'm looking into Edward's eyes, and I'm listening to tell this story.

[1474] This happened to Edward.

[1475] Now, I can tell you that in my culture, that can't happen.

[1476] Yeah.

[1477] But I recognize the power of culture, and I recognize that.

[1478] Mine's not more unique than anyone else's.

[1479] I am a slave to my culture and my logic is sometimes rooted in my culture.

[1480] Yeah.

[1481] Which is flexible and subjective.

[1482] That's right.

[1483] So I was like, no, these guys, they experienced that.

[1484] I wouldn't experience that because I don't believe that.

[1485] Right.

[1486] So I kind of can't experience it.

[1487] But I also believe people do experience it.

[1488] I wonder that that is interesting.

[1489] Because I also know people who've had like paranormal experiences here.

[1490] But I do think they all had all.

[1491] already a belief in ghosts.

[1492] Sure.

[1493] Like, I'd like to know if there's anyone who's like, I do not believe in ghosts, they're just not real, and then they have a paranormal experience.

[1494] So I had one.

[1495] Okay.

[1496] And so I think here's the big difference for me versus many of those other people.

[1497] So me and two other friends, three of us broke into Camp Deerborn, which was this camp behind my house, and they had paddle boats and fishing and all this stuff.

[1498] And then in the night time, they had this canteena where there was dancing and whatnot.

[1499] And the fence was right behind my house and we had cut a hole in it.

[1500] So three of us have snuck in and we go to the canteen, to the little dance and everything.

[1501] And then we're walking back to my house, which is probably like a mile walk through this park -like setting with these different things.

[1502] And all of a sudden, my friend goes like, what the fuck is that and points to this field.

[1503] And in the field, I see very clearly a red orb.

[1504] Okay.

[1505] Like as if it were emanating laser beams.

[1506] All three of us are staring at it.

[1507] And we're staring at long enough.

[1508] And it starts kind of, appears to be moving towards us.

[1509] And we kind of freak out for a minute and we start running.

[1510] At first, I'm like, are those, mind you, we're also scared of getting caught.

[1511] Right.

[1512] Right.

[1513] Because we're in there illegally.

[1514] So at first I thought, or those break.

[1515] lights i'm seeing you know is someone out on patrol weird flashlight or something but then when we ran this red orb zipped across this field like covering i don't know 600 yards in a second okay and then there was a moment we all agreed independently looked like a man on a bicycle where the bicycle was glowing and the the person on it was glowing like it changed in this shape that we all agreed looked like someone on a bicycle but then when it stopped it became this or begin.

[1516] All three of us saw the exact same thing.

[1517] Yeah.

[1518] And we're like, what the fuck was that?

[1519] So we always then called that the Red Man. Oh.

[1520] Now, I never jumped to the part where I'd say that was an alien, that was a spirit, that was anything.

[1521] I just simply go, I saw that thing.

[1522] I have no explanation for it.

[1523] And I'm not trying to come up with an explanation because I recognize I won't get anywhere close to what the fuck that was.

[1524] Did you ever Google it?

[1525] and see if there's a thing.

[1526] Oh, I mean now, I guess.

[1527] Yeah, maybe I should.

[1528] What if I just typed in Red Man?

[1529] Well, that would give me the rapper.

[1530] And that would also maybe give you some racist stuff about Native Americans.

[1531] Native Americans and the chewing tobacco, probably, company.

[1532] Right.

[1533] Lots of things are going to pop up.

[1534] I'd have to dig through so much before I got to the Red Orb.

[1535] I think you'd have to do like Michigan, Camp Deerborn, paranormal.

[1536] You'd have to put in a lot of buzzwords.

[1537] But now let's say that so here's where culture takes over.

[1538] So let's say that I came home and I told my mom this story and she goes, oh, yeah, that's Red Jamba.

[1539] He died.

[1540] I've seen Red Jamba three times and your grandma saw Red Jamba at the state fair and blah, blah, blah.

[1541] If all of a sudden it's confirmed by like my culture and my group that that's a known thing, I've probably been like, oh, okay.

[1542] Well, yeah, I saw this thing everyone's seen.

[1543] Right.

[1544] And now it just kind of gains a reality.

[1545] Yeah.

[1546] So if, you know, someone in the Philippines sees a ghost and they come home and I was like, yeah.

[1547] Yeah, I saw one last week.

[1548] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1549] Okay, great.

[1550] So everyone's seen it.

[1551] I'm not alone in this.

[1552] Yeah, that's true.

[1553] What's interesting about your story, though, that's unique, is normally people I know who've had, like, ghosty experiences, they're by themselves.

[1554] Right.

[1555] And they also, like, they don't get confirmation.

[1556] It's not like their mom was like, yeah, and I had a ghost experience, and it was that person.

[1557] Like, even if they had a ghost experience, it's a different kind.

[1558] Yeah.

[1559] Yeah, I've never heard of a bunch of people seeing one.

[1560] Yeah, well, three of us are.

[1561] And then similarly, my mother, who I really hold to be one of the most truthful people I've ever met.

[1562] She just doesn't sugarcoat anything or lie.

[1563] She has had some ghost experience when her dad died that she woke up and someone was rubbing her feet and she had this whole experience.

[1564] Yes, she woke up because her feet were being rubbed.

[1565] Now, again, I don't personally believe in ghosts.

[1566] Yet I know my mother's not lying.

[1567] Of course.

[1568] It's not binary like that.

[1569] No, right, right.

[1570] Because just because she's not lying, she's not lying, but that doesn't mean it was a ghost per se.

[1571] Of course not.

[1572] I will say, a lot of these ghosty things happen in the middle of the night.

[1573] Yes, when people could be dreaming.

[1574] Yeah, I don't think your brain, they could have what I had when I was stuck, you know?

[1575] Things are happening where you're half in, half out.

[1576] They're in the sunken place.

[1577] They are.

[1578] Yeah, so I guess what I'm saying is for me, two things are true at the same time that are definitely in opposition.

[1579] One is I don't believe in ghosts.

[1580] Two, I definitely believe my mother had a ghost experience.

[1581] You know what I'm saying?

[1582] Yeah.

[1583] Ultimately, no matter what, this is where I'll make an argument for the non -logical empirical side of life, which is all this data we're receiving is coming through this human filter.

[1584] And this human filter is not.

[1585] By any way, objective, measurable.

[1586] There's nothing scientific about the experience.

[1587] No. It's very hard to see outside of your perspective.

[1588] Yeah.

[1589] Okay, Thomas Edison.

[1590] Oh, also, it was so cool to learn he was the professor of Adam Grant.

[1591] Yes.

[1592] Oh my God, I loved that moment.

[1593] I wanted to really make a meal out of it.

[1594] We didn't, but.

[1595] Real -time discovery.

[1596] I was excited about that.

[1597] I'd like to have him on here at some point.

[1598] Yeah, me too.

[1599] He was a great interview.

[1600] Yeah.

[1601] So he likes Thomas Edison.

[1602] And he said he had 1 ,093 patents.

[1603] So he had 1093 patents in the United States, but 512 that were approved in countries around the globe.

[1604] In addition to that ,00093?

[1605] I think maybe it means of those.

[1606] Five 12.

[1607] Yeah.

[1608] Worldwide.

[1609] Yes.

[1610] So that's a lot.

[1611] And he was right.

[1612] You know what I'd like to Google is Thomas Edison's stupidest inventions?

[1613] So I bet there's a top 10 list.

[1614] I have a list of his inventions, but we won't be able to say whether they're stupid or not.

[1615] Because it's like type wheels for printing, printing telegraphs, electro -magnet.

[1616] Printing telegraphs?

[1617] Yeah, there's no way for us to know.

[1618] They all seem legit to me. Solutions for Chemical Telegraph Paper.

[1619] He also invented the electrographic vote recorder.

[1620] Edison's first patent permitted a yes or no. vote via one of two switches.

[1621] Washington congressmen were not interested in the device and the invention was unsuccessful.

[1622] Oopsies.

[1623] Yeah.

[1624] Sorry Tommy.

[1625] Do you think he went by Tom or Thomas?

[1626] Good question.

[1627] I think he went by Thomas.

[1628] I do too and that's simply because I've recognized him as a smart person.

[1629] Yeah, that's not right.

[1630] That seems like an elevated form of Tom.

[1631] Seems fancy.

[1632] Fancy.

[1633] Yeah, it does.

[1634] I don't think he was fancy though.

[1635] I don't either.

[1636] I think he was in a workshop, cutting the edges of his fingers off and stuff.

[1637] I think then I'm going to reverse my position.

[1638] I think he went by Tom.

[1639] I think he went by T -bone.

[1640] T -bone Edison.

[1641] I hope he did.

[1642] What a rascal he is.

[1643] So you said that it's good to put kids in swings because they can only focus on the one thing.

[1644] I didn't really find that exactly, but I mean, it is good to put kids in swings to an extent, I found out.

[1645] People shouldn't overdo it.

[1646] What's overdoing?

[1647] at like eight hours in a swing.

[1648] I think too many hours.

[1649] Also too many distractions.

[1650] Like a lot of them said like just swing without like all these things in front of them.

[1651] Oh that's for, yeah, for babies I remember being warned against that.

[1652] If you just put a baby on its back, it'll find a million things to look at in the ceiling that'll entertain it.

[1653] But if you make the entertainment so loud and in their face, you're kind of robbing them of that.

[1654] That's interesting.

[1655] But sometimes they just cry and crying.

[1656] If you put something in front of them, they will stop.

[1657] That's right.

[1658] And there becomes a point where you start going, well, now the baby's in danger of me flipping out.

[1659] Yeah.

[1660] So I had an ideal parenting technique, but I'm now shifting into survival technique.

[1661] Yeah, that's a good switch.

[1662] What denomination is Ulysses S. Grant on the $50 bill?

[1663] Oh, good.

[1664] And he was the 18th president.

[1665] Oh, number 18.

[1666] Yeah.

[1667] Now just quickly, I like the $50 bill.

[1668] I think it's fantastic.

[1669] It might be my favorite bill.

[1670] Really?

[1671] Okay.

[1672] Yes, because when I go get money out of the ATM, right?

[1673] Mm -hmm.

[1674] And I get 20s, and I generally get 500.

[1675] I'd say once a month, I go get $500 out.

[1676] Now, that's a big wad of bills.

[1677] Yeah.

[1678] Protrudes from my pants.

[1679] People might think I'm aroused.

[1680] Oh, no. Whatever that one where you rub on people is.

[1681] I forget that, not a petterist, but some kind of.

[1682] No, that had a weird name.

[1683] I did.

[1684] I had to look it up on the last fact check.

[1685] But at any rate, now, then your other options is to go get five $100 bills.

[1686] And those, no one will break them.

[1687] It's always a pain in the ass.

[1688] No one's happy you whip that out.

[1689] So that's not a good option.

[1690] And now the 50, boom.

[1691] It's the sweet spot.

[1692] Middle ground.

[1693] Middle ground.

[1694] Minimum bills, but they're passable.

[1695] Okay.

[1696] I see your point.

[1697] I mean, I think many people probably aren't taken out 500s.

[1698] Certainly.

[1699] But if you are, you're right that's the way to go yeah I get 20s you get 20s yeah and I like 20s 500 a year I'm pulling out 6 ,000 bucks in cash a year mm -hmm which is a lot and yet not crazy people certainly are doling out 500 bucks a month oh for sure it's just in cash I think feels like a lot to have on you and I just have this proclivity towards cash as you know my wife never pulls money out in fact she's pulling out of my pocket so when I say I pull out 500 a month really at least 200 of that is getting ripped out of my wallet and put into her change first yeah well she needs it well of course yeah just to pay the nail salon yeah she's a certain cash she tips really well so she needs that cash she's got to have that sweet green cash that's all that was it oh yeah Thomas Anderson invent cash cash in a way I bet he would have if he lived long enough he would have invented cash app yeah you would have yeah Well, we were just talking about this last night that I've seen a few places that don't take cash.

[1700] First of all, I thought it was illegal.

[1701] I thought, like, you have to honor this currency.

[1702] I thought it says they're on there.

[1703] You know, this is legal tender.

[1704] Regardless, I've seen it, whether it's illegal or not.

[1705] And then I thought, man, we're getting real close probably to no cash.

[1706] And what a buy -in.

[1707] What a, in the Yuval Harari buying into myths and stories, we already bought into this myth and story that that piece of paper has a value.

[1708] I know.

[1709] And now there's not even going to be a fucking piece.

[1710] of paper it's just like hey imaginary yeah you're 12 and then someone explains to you hey so anyways you'll start working and then you'll never see anything but you'll have more zeros on your in this statement or this app it's see I'm granted I'm sure it'll just go seamlessly but to me it's like wow now we're really stretching the concept of this fake thing I agree it's hard to wrap your head around and then where we'll go from there somewhere else you'll just have your money will be in like your eyes and they'll just like scan your eye and your whole worth is there.

[1711] Yeah, I would stare at it all day long.

[1712] I hope that doesn't happen in my lifetime.

[1713] I'm obsessed with safety and money.

[1714] I would be staring at it all the time.

[1715] Would you?

[1716] Well, I think, so you'd buy one of those little readers.

[1717] I guess everyone would have a reader.

[1718] You'd have to feel to figure out how much you have.

[1719] Yeah.

[1720] Yeah, I probably would check it too often.

[1721] Yeah, and then it's just not great because the whole thing's an illusion.

[1722] What is safety?

[1723] Wow.

[1724] We'll be dead by then.

[1725] Don't worry.

[1726] Well, hopefully we're doing this long enough to play this and we'll laugh.

[1727] Like when you're 51 and I'm 64, we'll dig out this old dusty clip.

[1728] Yeah.

[1729] And we'll have been living for 10 years without any form of proof we have any money.

[1730] And we'll be living forever by then because we'll have vampire blood.

[1731] That's right.

[1732] And CRISPR.

[1733] And the sorcerer's stone.

[1734] All the things.

[1735] Yeah.

[1736] Ghosts.

[1737] And we'll play this and we'll have a good laugh at our naive.

[1738] Betay.

[1739] Oh, man. When we live forever, there'll be no more ghosts.

[1740] Oh, my God.

[1741] Except the current amount of ghosts.

[1742] Well, even in a world where we live forever, I think you still can get killed by a boss, right?

[1743] Oh, yeah.

[1744] Or a ghost.

[1745] You can get killed by a ghost.

[1746] Yeah, you're right.

[1747] All right.

[1748] I love you.

[1749] Love you.

[1750] Good night.

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