355 - Satanic Panic Attack

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome.

[2] To my favorite murder.

[3] That's Georgia Hardster.

[4] That's Karen Kilgariff.

[5] Here we go.

[6] Here we are.

[7] We're present and accounted for.

[8] Post Thanksgiving come down.

[9] Yep.

[10] But it's not post Thanksgiving for everyone listening.

[11] It's like deep Christmas season now.

[12] Shit.

[13] The snow is falling outside.

[14] Right.

[15] There we go.

[16] Chestnuts are roasting.

[17] I totally forget.

[18] The out -of -schedual recording.

[19] very confusing sometimes.

[20] It's so confusing.

[21] I'm so far, I don't even know, like, what day it's supposed to be that we're supposed to be recording ever.

[22] Luckily, this show has always been evergreen.

[23] That's right.

[24] In that we just talk about ourselves.

[25] That we talk about ourselves, what's going on in our lives at right now time.

[26] This is no newspaper.

[27] This is not a newspaper you're reading.

[28] Did you think you just picked up a newspaper?

[29] You're wrong.

[30] You're wrong.

[31] Speaking of picking up and book, though, if I can segue into that.

[32] Absolutely.

[33] Are you ready to make fun of me for what I'm reading?

[34] Absolutely.

[35] I was, you know, I always read, like, detective novels and murderly things and, you know, families falling apart.

[36] But I'm like, okay, I need something less depressing right now.

[37] I, like, need a uplifting thing.

[38] Harlequin romance?

[39] No. Oh, damn.

[40] You looked so excited.

[41] No, I just like, I was like, what's the, what's a book that everyone says is like it picks you up and it makes you feel better about your life okay eat pray love yes I guess it you got it do you like it I do it's good it's like it's like it can't not be a good book because it's so famous but I think it's just a corny like it's such a like I've avoided it this long because I'm like that's not for me I'm a I'm not spiritual which I need to be which is ridiculous and I'm not.

[42] That's not the approach that's going to work.

[43] I better do this.

[44] It's so dumb.

[45] I'm so stupid for not being spiritual.

[46] That doesn't work.

[47] Yeah.

[48] But it is uplifting and it is making me like it's giving me some like motivation.

[49] I've like lacked motivation lately in my own life.

[50] So it's kind of giving me a little of that boost.

[51] Well, there's nothing like a permission book where it's like here's the story of somebody who gave themselves permission.

[52] And it's like We, I think, I'll just speak for you and I, we already kind of live that way.

[53] So sometimes you go, oh, you feel like you must turn it away because you're like, don't tell me what I already know.

[54] But then when you actually read it, it's like there's plenty we don't know and there's plenty.

[55] Elizabeth Gilbert is a really, really good writer and everything she's done after I have really loved.

[56] And I loved that book when it came out and I loved the movie.

[57] Yeah, Julia Roberts, right?

[58] I think I saw it.

[59] I don't even remember.

[60] No, I didn't.

[61] I avoided the whole thing completely.

[62] So now I'm in my eat, fray love phase of my season of my life.

[63] Excuse me. You had to take off your punk rock leather jacket and put on your Pajmina.

[64] Yep.

[65] And I had to just embrace my, what's it called?

[66] You're under the Tuscan sunside?

[67] That's right.

[68] It was one of those two things was going to be the one.

[69] And so here I am.

[70] Here I am.

[71] You're going to walk on the beach and white caprice pretty soon.

[72] You're going to start going for it.

[73] I'm ready.

[74] I'm ready.

[75] Elizabeth Gilbert has a really unbelievable TED talk.

[76] Oh.

[77] You've probably seen it.

[78] But she talks about her, like, down period after Eat, Prate Love, or she was like, how can I ever write anything again?

[79] And it's never be that successful.

[80] Yeah.

[81] And it's one of the smartest kind of, one of those kinds of talks.

[82] It's like, it's very effective in terms of, like, when you're telling yourself stories about yourself.

[83] Is that, like, from when we wrote Stay Se sexy and Don't Get Murder.

[84] And afterwards, you were like, well, how can we ever top that?

[85] That book was the most.

[86] Did I say that?

[87] Yeah, I remember.

[88] You were like, how can we ever top that passion project known as Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered?

[89] My God.

[90] I'm like, really?

[91] It doesn't sound like me. He didn't say.

[92] Oh, a joke.

[93] Yeah, we just let's put our pens down because never again.

[94] I really appreciate any book or movie where somebody goes to Italy and eats with real Italians.

[95] Yes.

[96] Show me that, tell me what it's like, describe the heaven that dinner is about like...

[97] And she does that, which I totally appreciate.

[98] She talks about, like, here is what I ate.

[99] Any book I read, I'm like, tell me what you ate.

[100] I just want to know what you ate, even in, like, fiction.

[101] That doesn't make any sense.

[102] But I love it.

[103] But isn't, I think hers is based on something she went through?

[104] No, it's like a memoir.

[105] Oh, it is?

[106] Yeah.

[107] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[108] Oh, I thought you just said fiction and then I was like, oh, is it not real?

[109] Like even if it is fiction, that's what I'm into.

[110] Yeah, no, no, no. Got it, got it, got it.

[111] Total memoir.

[112] Like, total memoir.

[113] Well, not to one up you, but let me one up you.

[114] Because I'm staying at my dad's house.

[115] Yeah.

[116] I just read whatever book is on the nightstand.

[117] Yeah.

[118] And I don't know where these books come from.

[119] Oh, my God.

[120] I won't name the actual one because it's just one it's just one of those it actually is one of those like um you know detective yeah kind of murder books or whatever but it's so funny how i think i'm such a snob i will read one of those like immediately well if they're well written yeah yeah and like they they were just kind of catchy it's just like they're catchy you're when you're cosied up in bed and, like, trying to relax or whatever.

[121] And then it's just like this mindless kind of thing rolls out in front of you.

[122] It's the best.

[123] I love the idea of your dad, like, getting into bed and turn in to grab his book that he's reading.

[124] And like, Karen's in town.

[125] She's stole my book.

[126] Like, you just steal whatever's on his nightstand.

[127] He's, like, fucked over.

[128] You know what's really funny?

[129] My dad reads, he's a huge, huge reader, and he only reads on Kindle.

[130] So he gets mad when you book.

[131] Like, we used to give him books as gifts all the time.

[132] And then he's like, I'm going to get that on Kindle.

[133] Like, he has a whole...

[134] He doesn't need it.

[135] He doesn't need a book.

[136] Yeah, he really loves...

[137] We've talked about that, but he loves technology.

[138] So when any new thing comes out, he kind of, like, indulges and gets it because he just thinks it's amazing.

[139] They're making things like that.

[140] And when Kindle came out, it was like, it changed his life.

[141] I still need to get into that, but I love a fucking...

[142] I love the feel of a book in my hands.

[143] Me too.

[144] dogier pages, I'll fucking, like, go back and, you can't go back and read a chapter you loved, or, you know what I mean?

[145] Like, I want it in my hands, and I want to be able to bring it with me to, like, a restaurant if I want to eat alone and, like, read a book.

[146] I just love that feeling.

[147] Also, sometimes I reread the same line, like, 15 times.

[148] I'm like, there's something wrong with my brain, but I don't know.

[149] On Kindle, it's not the same as, like, when you're really trying to focus on, like, a book with the kind of tan pages that's been sitting in someone's, guest room for years.

[150] Smells good.

[151] Yeah.

[152] All right.

[153] Oh, yeah.

[154] This is a true crime podcast, if anyone.

[155] Oh, yeah.

[156] Well, you just talked about detective novels.

[157] So there, there you go.

[158] Oh, that's true.

[159] You did.

[160] That's right.

[161] We did it.

[162] We fulfilled our quota.

[163] I would like to, for one second, talk about an actual current true crime thing that's happening that is really awful and very scary.

[164] And it's in Idaho in Moscow, Idaho.

[165] where those four college kids got murdered in a house and they don't know who it is.

[166] And it's so...

[167] It's terrifying.

[168] So frightening.

[169] It's like a movie is starting, but it's not going anywhere and it's just getting scarier as the moments pass.

[170] Yeah.

[171] Like to be in that town, it's a college town.

[172] Yeah, small one, right?

[173] I've never heard of it.

[174] Yeah.

[175] And it's like 21 -year -old, like four 21 -year -old roommates who got murdered in the middle of the night in their sleep.

[176] I don't know what happened in their sleep.

[177] or what, but it's like, it's just such a like, how did that, how can that fucking happen for kids?

[178] It is like, it's like a horror movie.

[179] It's a horror movie, but there's no additional anything is dropping and there's a lot of conjecture on social media.

[180] And it's really, you know, it's, I mean, people say this all the time, but I'll just say it in that way of like, please be careful when you have theories about actual people.

[181] Those kinds of things where people get carried away and they're naming names and doxing people and stuff.

[182] That is, you know, like, I don't think, I think it may have, like, the conjecture may have began, but people kind of kept it in check, but, like, it's that thing where people want answers immediately, so they just go, look at this guy, what's this guy doing?

[183] It's like, those are real people and real accusations.

[184] Totally.

[185] Or, like, when it's like, so and so, it's a boy, it's the boyfriend, it's the ex, it's the, this, it's that.

[186] It's like, yes.

[187] Yeah, totally.

[188] You have to be careful.

[189] It's horrifying.

[190] But I don't know, I started looking at that because I haven't followed like a true crime real case in real time in a little while.

[191] And it's just so sad.

[192] It's just awful.

[193] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[194] Absolutely.

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[213] Goodbye.

[214] Today I'm going to tell you about the first trial in the country where the defense wanted to prove innocence based on the claim of demonic possession, aka the demon murder trial.

[215] Whoa, I've never heard of this.

[216] The sources used in today's episodes are in New York Times.

[217] You're like, it took place in 1791.

[218] Yeah.

[219] No, it's straight up out in the 80s, out in the open and out in the satanic panic of the 80s, of course.

[220] Of course.

[221] The sources used in today's episode are in New York Times article by Deadly Klannden, a heavily used Washington Post article by Lynn.

[222] Darling, two Hartford Corriant articles, one by Julius Stagis and the other by Jesse Leavenworth, People Magazine article by Lynn Berensky, and a bunch of other articles that I will put in the show notes.

[223] Perfect.

[224] But let's start, shall we, on February 16th, 1981, and 19 -year -old Arnie Johnson, who goes by his middle name, Cheyenne.

[225] I'm just going to call him Cheyenne from now on.

[226] I would pick Cheyenne over Arnie myself.

[227] Yeah, me too.

[228] Yeah.

[229] So he drives over to the dog kennels where his 25 -year -old girlfriend, Debbie Glatzell, works at.

[230] They're going to grab lunch at a nearby bar, and they're joined by Cheyenne's sister, Debbie's nine -year -old niece and Debbie's boss, whose name is Alan Bono.

[231] Alan is friendly with the couple.

[232] In addition to owning the kennels, where Debbie works, he's also Debbie and Cheyenne's landlord.

[233] They have lunch.

[234] The adults have some wine with their lunch as you do, and the group finishes up and returns to the kennel, and there Debbie gets back to work.

[235] while Cheyenne repairs a radio for Allen.

[236] So Allen's the boss, and Cheyenne and Debbie are the couple.

[237] Okay.

[238] Meanwhile, Alan keeps drinking, the boss keeps drinking and drinking, and he starts acting belligerently.

[239] His behavior is making Debbie uncomfortable, so Cheyenne stays behind to keep an eye on things while she takes the girls to pick up a pizza.

[240] They're like hoping to sober Alan up with a pizza.

[241] But she is at the pizza shop.

[242] She has this intense feeling that something really bad is about to happen, like a premonition, and they rush back to the kennels right away.

[243] And Debbie's intuition was right, because after they get back with the pizza, Alan, like, herds the group upstairs.

[244] He's drunk and agitated.

[245] He turns up the TV really high.

[246] Debbie wants to get herself and the girls away from her drunk boss, and he keeps, like, punching his hand.

[247] He's just acting really aggressive and, like, agitated.

[248] She tries to bring the girls downstairs and back to the car, but Alan grabs Debbie's young niece and refuses to let her go.

[249] So Cheyenne steps in and confronts Alan, who finally lets go of the girl, but this doesn't defuse the situation.

[250] Jebby tries to intervene and calm the men down, so they're kind of, they're arguing at this point.

[251] And then Alan is freaking her out and acting inappropriately, but he also has a real power over her life, so she's like, can't be too involved in it.

[252] He cuts her paycheck and owns the home that she lives in with Cheyenne, so she doesn't want to get too involved.

[253] and her efforts are no use anyways and before long things get weird so Cheyenne he starts growling at Alan and gets a scary look in his eyes and it's like a blank look and then Cheyenne draws his five -inch pocket knife and stabs Alan more than 20 times with one cut extending all the way from the base of Alan's heart down to his stomach so he kind of just goes berserk Wow Yeah Alan falls to the floor and Cheyenne just drops the knives, and then stares directly ahead and walks out into the woods, leaving the shell -shot girls behind him.

[254] Okay, this is the boyfriend that did that?

[255] Yeah.

[256] To the boss?

[257] To the boss who was acting erratically.

[258] Yeah.

[259] Yeah.

[260] And this is where that demonic possession murder thing comes in.

[261] But there's murder within that.

[262] The murder and the subsequent trial will be a media sensation.

[263] It's often remembered in one particularly memorable line that the defense used is called the devil made me do it.

[264] That's like the line that they use.

[265] So this is the story of the 1981 murder of Alan Bono and the trial of Cheyenne Johnson, highly publicized, possibly supernaturally motivation behind the killing.

[266] Wow.

[267] So let's remind about nine months earlier to May 1980, Cheyenne and Debbie have just signed the lease on a small house in a little woodsy town just outside of Brookfield, Connecticut.

[268] The couple have been dating for about two years, but have known each other for many years and are looking forward to having their own space together.

[269] And it's not just any space.

[270] It's Debbie's dream house.

[271] It's surrounded by trees.

[272] It's like her dream home.

[273] But the house needs a lot of work.

[274] It's dirty.

[275] And the previous tenants have left a lot of things behind that need to get cleaned out.

[276] So over the next few days, Debbie's family comes over and helps Cheyenne and Debbie clean up and move stuff in and get settled in their new home.

[277] And this is when Debbie's 45 -year -old mom, Judy says she starts seeing disturbing things.

[278] While she's hanging some curtains in the bedroom, she looks over and sees her youngest son, who's 11 -year -old David, thrown onto the waterbed, like he's been pushed, but there's no one else in the room, almost like a force has pushed him onto the bed.

[279] That same afternoon, David tells the family he saw something, or maybe someone that looked like an old man, wearing jeans in a torn plaid shirt, but he has these dark, scary, unhuman eyes.

[280] But only David can see it and hear it.

[281] It's pointing at David and telling him to beware.

[282] But even when he closes his eyes, he can see it.

[283] And Debbie and Cheyenne, they don't believe him.

[284] But they think David's just making it up because he doesn't want to help out with their move, which I can see and understand.

[285] But Judy, the mom, believes in the supernatural, and she also believes her son.

[286] So when everyone starts hearing weird noises coming from the attic, it only convinces her more that David is telling the truth.

[287] And then that night when David gets back to his own house, he sees the figure again.

[288] This time it has burnt black skin and hooves instead of feet.

[289] And for the next several days, David sees it every single night.

[290] Then he starts seeing it during the daytime as well.

[291] And so within a few days, David is even showing signs of physical abuse like unexplained scratches and bruises on his body.

[292] So this is starting to look like a classic possession.

[293] Wow.

[294] He even reportedly has red marks on his neck as if he'd been choked.

[295] Debbie is terrified of what's happening to her little brother.

[296] And she asked Cheyenne if they could move in.

[297] with the family to help keep an eye on him, but there's also probably a part of her that wants to get out of the new house in the woods where David first encountered whatever it is that he's seeing.

[298] So whatever skepticism, the glatz cells initially had fades after a couple of days, they fully believe that the figure David's seeing with the hooves, dark eyes, and charred skin is a demon.

[299] And they take turns staying up at night with David, whose symptoms are progressing.

[300] He's now having violent convulsions.

[301] He's growling and speaking in a strange voice while reciting Bible passages, and the poem, Paradise Lost.

[302] Yeah.

[303] So, like, 11 -year -old kid probably doesn't know that poem, right?

[304] He's like...

[305] He hasn't memorized that poem.

[306] Right.

[307] It's kind of weird.

[308] His mom, Judy, later, tells the New York Times that her son, quote, would kick, bite, spit, swear, and use terrible words.

[309] The family's completely terrified and distressed, and at one point, Cheyenne even pins David to his bed and places a crucifix onto his forehead.

[310] Only a week has passed since David first reported seeing the dean.

[311] and the family decides to ask a Catholic priest to say mass and bless their house, but it doesn't make a difference.

[312] David continues to scream obscenities, kick and spit at his mother, and even attacks his grandma with a knife.

[313] Judy, the mom, who I mentioned is a firm believer in the supernatural, knows all about the work of ghost hunters, Ed and Lorraine Warren.

[314] So we've talked about them before.

[315] They're almost like demon hunters or like demon chasers.

[316] We're like, if you hear about a case, they're going to be there, like to confirm it's happening and like get involved.

[317] Well, and there's the, there's that whole series of movies that they, they are in.

[318] Is it insidious?

[319] The Conjuring?

[320] Is it the conjuring?

[321] Yeah.

[322] And then they come in and it's Vera Farminga and Patrick Wilson.

[323] Yeah.

[324] And they come in their 70s outfits to like bless this house or whatever.

[325] Yeah.

[326] Yeah.

[327] Like picture the poltergeist kind of kind of movie type of thing, right?

[328] Where like someone comes in and is like, this house is haunted and, and where you're, here to help.

[329] But a lot of people think that they allegedly, you know, made the whole thing up and we're just kind of full of shit.

[330] That's what some people say.

[331] Right.

[332] What?

[333] I mean, there's always a, there's always a circusy element to people who are like, we, for a living, we drive around.

[334] Right.

[335] And get rid of demons out of people's house.

[336] Right.

[337] This is a tough one to like use on your resume.

[338] It is.

[339] And they always get the press like highly involved.

[340] So it's a little bit like of a show, like a, like a show going on.

[341] Why can't those, why can't the, the demon chasers do it like low -key?

[342] Yeah.

[343] Why can't they just do it for the love of it?

[344] That's right.

[345] That's right.

[346] Like us.

[347] So, you know, so Ed and the rain.

[348] We're so private about this.

[349] We are.

[350] We are so private.

[351] We don't even, we don't even talk about it in our outside.

[352] None of our friends or family know we do this guys.

[353] We barely post it.

[354] Yeah.

[355] I mean, just.

[356] Barely.

[357] Barely.

[358] They had gotten famous for investigating the Amityville haunting about five years earlier.

[359] So that had just happened in the Amityville.

[360] And that thing was, like, hugely famous and, like, well -known.

[361] Everyone knows about it.

[362] Yeah.

[363] I think I already recommended it on this podcast, but there's a really good podcast about it.

[364] Oh, yeah?

[365] Yeah, I did.

[366] I remember talking about it.

[367] Because it's all the people that, like, reported on it.

[368] Right.

[369] In the 80s when it happened.

[370] It's just look up Amityville Horror Podcast.

[371] Oh, it's the one with Donnie Wahlberg.

[372] Oh, right.

[373] Oh, I think of that.

[374] That sounds cool.

[375] Feeling desperate and out of options in just 12 days after David's initial change in behavior, Judy reaches out to the Warrens.

[376] So they come right away.

[377] And during their first session with David, Lorraine reportedly sees a black mist materialized near the boy, which she claims is the sign of an inhuman evil presence.

[378] I mean, it's, I hate to speak ill, but like, it's such bullshit.

[379] But I know these poor people believe that their kids.

[380] is possessed by the devil and...

[381] Here's the thing.

[382] They're praying on them.

[383] You're...

[384] Well, maybe...

[385] But here's the thing.

[386] You moved into a house in the middle of the woods.

[387] Everyone knows how you feel about the woods.

[388] But there's so many, like, aside from, like, beasts, there's also...

[389] It's just creepy.

[390] It's like, if you want to make a scary movie, set it in the woods.

[391] By anything will happen in there.

[392] Yeah.

[393] Aliens, time travel.

[394] ghost, whatever.

[395] Like, it's all up, it's all up for grabs in the woods.

[396] Their house is in the middle of the woods.

[397] So, like, then if a demon storyline starts, I'm all in.

[398] Because, sure, it's like, it feels like anything is possible.

[399] Why is that house in the woods?

[400] Yeah.

[401] How about down by the movie theater?

[402] What are you doing?

[403] What are you conjuring, if I may?

[404] Literally.

[405] What are you conjuring out in those woods?

[406] So then if you are in a position where you think your child is possessed by the devil, Yeah.

[407] Who else are you going to call besides these two?

[408] Totally.

[409] Maybe they are hucksters, but also maybe that's what people need if who else is going to come.

[410] Right.

[411] And if the kid is actually acting this way, I don't think he was acting this way, then if those are your beliefs, that's who you're going to call.

[412] You're not going to call a psychiatrist and be like, help our kid.

[413] You can't call an EMT.

[414] Right.

[415] Like, what are you going to do?

[416] And like in the Amityville movie, they called the priest first to come and bless the house and he's like, peace out.

[417] I'm not staying here.

[418] I've never seen so many flies in my life.

[419] I'm not staying here, right?

[420] That's a scary movie.

[421] Isn't there a fly?

[422] I know.

[423] They say that one is, that one's fake too, but I don't care because I was 10 years old when everyone started talking about that book.

[424] And it's one of the scariest things of all time.

[425] I have it.

[426] One of our listeners gave me a vintage copy of it.

[427] Is it the hard copy with like, that's kind of small, like a, is like white.

[428] No. The one we have in our school library, I can still see it in my head.

[429] No. I can't believe you had it in a Catholic school library.

[430] They let you have the Ambyville.

[431] I didn't understand it myself.

[432] That's why I was like, I think I need to check this out again.

[433] Because they think it's real.

[434] It couldn't be more real to me. This is the stuff we'd always been taught about.

[435] And a lot of people get taught about.

[436] Like that idea that we're all kind of walking on that edge of like being human means that you could also be evil or you're susceptible to evil.

[437] This is just like playing that out in a. in a way that, like, it seems like a lot of times people can't explain.

[438] Yeah.

[439] A kid with bruises.

[440] Yeah.

[441] That doesn't have abusive parents.

[442] Nothing's being covered up.

[443] It's like...

[444] That changes right after being in a new, creepy -ass fucking house and sees something evil.

[445] That's when he changes in the forest.

[446] In the forest.

[447] Yes, in the forest.

[448] She also claims he levitates and reports paranormal activity within the Glatzel house.

[449] And levitating, like, levitating plates, a rocking chair being thrown across the room.

[450] and Judy's clothes and belongings being dumped out of their drawers on the bedroom floor.

[451] So the warns conclude that David is possessed by multiple demons.

[452] Meanwhile, Debbie is now having visions of flashing lights and a face with jagged teeth, black eyes, horns, and pointed ears.

[453] Uh -oh.

[454] Yeah, I bet the idea of things being possessed is also a very catching idea.

[455] Like if you're watching one person suffer from it, it's very easy to believe and go with that.

[456] I bet you're right.

[457] Yeah, it's that tectanic panic, literally.

[458] One person thinks it's real and everyone else panics and thinks they have it too or someone they love has it too, of course.

[459] Makes sense.

[460] We're all very scared deep down.

[461] Under the guidance of the Warrens, the Glatzels seek the assistance of the Catholic Church.

[462] David undergoes three so -called lesser exorcisms involving four priests.

[463] During these rights, Ed Warren claims that David reveals the names of 43 demons who are possessing him.

[464] And Cheyenne also engages with the demons, repeatedly challenging them to leave David and possess him instead.

[465] So this is the boyfriend who's like, leave this 11 -year -old alone and come possess me instead.

[466] According to Lorraine, Cheyenne says, quote, come into me, take me instead of him, leave my little buddy alone.

[467] He does this despite the Warren's repeated warnings that this is incredibly dangerous.

[468] Judy does take her son to see a psychiatrist at this point because the Catholic Church wanted him just to get tested to make sure nothing was wrong with him before they did these exorcisms.

[469] And there was nothing wrong with him psychologically based on what the psychiatrist said.

[470] In any case, there's not a lot we know about the priest's involvement, which is an unusual because priests don't speak publicly about this kind of thing, obviously.

[471] Even though we see exorcisms play it out on TV and in movies all the time and maybe think we have some sort of idea of what they entail, the real life details are kept highly confidential by the church.

[472] it's easy to see how the secrecy creates the perfect environment for Lorraine and Ed Warren to embellish the details of the church's involvement because no one from the church is going to fact -check them.

[473] But all things considered, it's worth taking the family's story with a grain of salt because we have no idea if the Catholic Church was even totally involved or not.

[474] Right.

[475] According to them, they were and wanted them to go to a psychiatrist.

[476] It's reason number one million why I would like them to open up the Vatican and let us see what's in there in terms of fighting any kind of, you would think that the Catholic Church would want to prove that they have a history of, like, battling and winning over battles of demons.

[477] I'd start believing in Catholicism if I was like, oh, shit, it's real?

[478] You kidding me?

[479] What they did what?

[480] I mean, you've seen those, like, those, every once in a while you see a picture of, like, a kit.

[481] Oh, no, those are, um, vampire.

[482] Vampire killing kits.

[483] Have you ever seen those?

[484] Oh, yeah.

[485] Old school, like vintage vampire killing kits.

[486] Those are rad.

[487] I think I've also seen a possession, like an exorcism kit.

[488] Yeah.

[489] That sounds right.

[490] Pretty sure.

[491] That sounds right.

[492] I could be making it up, though.

[493] Let us know if you have one, please.

[494] I could be satanic panicking right in front of you.

[495] You could be having a satanic panic attack right now.

[496] Oh my God.

[497] Can we call this episode satanic panic attack, please.

[498] I'm sure.

[499] Okay, but let's get back in.

[500] into it.

[501] With the priests failing to exercise the demons from David, everyone seems to be at a total loss and no one knows what to do.

[502] In October 1980, which is five months since David first saw a figure, Lorraine and Edward finally contact the Brookfield police and say they're worried that despite all the work with the family, someone could die because of the demonic possession that's afflicting the glat cells.

[503] In November, David is reportedly diagnosed by his family physician as having nothing more than minor learning disabilities, which he says rules out any other psychological condition that could explain his behavior.

[504] So it's not psychological.

[505] David is enrolled in therapeutic private school and eventually begins to have less frequent episodes.

[506] However, he continues to suffer from nightmares, low energy, and a depressive mood, which is like, me too.

[507] Like what 12 -year -old doesn't have those fucking...

[508] Well, also, but I wonder, well, now I'm just, now I have my own theories, but was he just leaving the house more?

[509] Yeah.

[510] What if he was away from the place that was haunted in the first place?

[511] Yeah, that's true.

[512] Would that even work?

[513] Anyway.

[514] Let's ask the Catholic Church.

[515] Ring, ring.

[516] Open up the Vatican vault.

[517] Oh, how cool would that be?

[518] I would fucking, I would love it.

[519] Meanwhile, Cheyenne and Debbie's dream house in the woods is still sitting there vacant because they had moved out of it, like, as soon as this had started.

[520] The whole family is terrified of it, and they're fully convinced that it's a resting place for demons.

[521] And as eager as the couple is to help with David, they don't want to go.

[522] They don't want to live with Debbie's parents forever, so they're working to get themselves back to a point where they can sign a lease and have their own place.

[523] So no one's going back to the house in the woods.

[524] As soon as that happened, they were like, at least like, fuck this place.

[525] We're not living there anymore.

[526] Good, good.

[527] But he has to go back and get their stuff.

[528] So he returns to the house in the woods one last time.

[529] And the idea of demonic possession clearly has a hold on him.

[530] And it said that he wants to investigate an old well that's on the property, which he thinks houses the demons that have possessed David.

[531] It does.

[532] You don't need to invest.

[533] It does.

[534] That's exactly what Ed and Lorraine said is like there's no fucking reason for you to go back there.

[535] Stay away from the house in the woods under any circumstances.

[536] But Cheyenne doesn't listen.

[537] And during his visit, he claims to make eye contact with a demon that's in the well.

[538] No. Also, isn't that from the ring where there's the video and the girls coming up out of the well?

[539] It's so scary.

[540] It's so scary.

[541] It's so terrifying thing I've ever seen in my life.

[542] This story is like every horror movie that's ever been written combined.

[543] Yeah, exactly.

[544] So after this encounter, Debbie claims that Cheyenne starts behaving strangely.

[545] In fact, he starts acting like David.

[546] And on at least five occasions, he seems to fall into trances and starts growling.

[547] And he only snaps out of it if Debbie slaps him across the face where he comes to and has no recollection of what just happened.

[548] Debbie, of course, is terrified.

[549] She's now convinced her boyfriend is now demonically possessed, like her little brother was.

[550] But it should be noted that no one outside the family, including Cheyenne's coworkers, seem to observe his change in behavior.

[551] So now let's jump back to February 16th, 1981, in those first moments after Cheyenne is fatally stabbed his girlfriend's boss, Alan Bono.

[552] A little about Alan Bono.

[553] He's only been in town for about six months at this point.

[554] Before that, he was living in Florida with his sister.

[555] And even earlier, he was in Australia.

[556] He came to Brookfield to manage the dog kennel, which his sister owned.

[557] He said to be very extroverted and loves telling everyone about his travels and adventures, but he also likes to drink.

[558] even during business hours, which means that Debbie does most of the work running the kennels.

[559] So he's stabbed and he's taken to the hospital where he dies after several hours.

[560] So Cheyenne is charged with first -degree murder and held at Bridgeport Correctional Center on $125 ,000 bail.

[561] The murder is, of course, a total shock.

[562] After all, Cheyenne has a totally clean criminal record.

[563] He's just like a kid.

[564] He's only 19 at this point.

[565] So he's just a kid who had, you know, killed someone, and he and Alan were friendly with one another.

[566] The day after the murder, Lorraine Warren contacts the Brookfield police to tell them that she believes that Cheyenne was possessed, and that's why he killed Allen.

[567] And Debbie backs this up.

[568] She separately tells investigators, at the time of the murder, she heard two voices coming out of Cheyenne's mouth at the same time.

[569] And David also chimes in and says that he had a vision of the demonic spirit, leaving his body and going into Cheyenne's.

[570] And David says, it must have been the demon, not Cheyenne, that killed Al. So they all believe that he was possessed when he killed Alan.

[571] The publicity and hype around the trial is unprecedented.

[572] In part, it's because this is the first murder in Brookfield's 193 -year history.

[573] Very first murder, I know.

[574] It's also the first trial in the country where the defense hopes to prove innocence based on the claim of demonic possession.

[575] So I just can't imagine that being the defense because you can't prove that there's the devil.

[576] It feels so much like of the day.

[577] I love the day.

[578] Totally.

[579] Everything that was going on back then, and it was really serious.

[580] It wasn't like just a trend.

[581] No. It was like people were going to this almost like first when stuff would happen.

[582] Is it the devil?

[583] Did the devil do it?

[584] The devil made me do it.

[585] Just so crazy and crazy making and like, yeah, catching in that way where it's just like, yeah, it's so easy to believe.

[586] Totally.

[587] And of course, Ed and Lorraine Warren play a huge role in getting the case to blow up in the media.

[588] They're not press shy at all, and they know how to get the public excited, but it's easy to do in the 1980s.

[589] It's the era of the satanic panic, as we said, and the horror and supernatural and occult are super zeitgeisty and all over popular culture, like we said.

[590] This trial, which eventually becomes known as the demon murder trial, which is catchy, fits right into this culture.

[591] TV networks and tabloids scramble to cover every possible angle of the story by speaking to whoever they can.

[592] But ideally, someone with a connection to the case, and often that's Ed and Lorraine Warren, who are seemingly always on hand to share audio clips, give expert insight, or speculate over the trial.

[593] So they're fucking eating this up.

[594] They get a decent amount of criticism for this with many people writing them off as opportunists.

[595] I mean, just to speak for Ed and Lorraine for one second, maybe they are opportunists or whatever, but ultimately what...

[596] I'm interested in knowing what they receive for all that kind of backlash and shittiness or whatever and going into like families that were just like going through something.

[597] Whatever it is, they're going through something and they're right there for it.

[598] Like, what's the benefit there?

[599] What are they winning?

[600] The book rights.

[601] Just fame.

[602] And the movie rights.

[603] And fame.

[604] I don't know.

[605] Yeah.

[606] I mean, they probably believed it.

[607] If they were good Christians or whatever, you want to call it, they probably believed in it and wanted to help.

[608] People believe this.

[609] It's not like, yeah, it's not out of the realm.

[610] Yeah, they do.

[611] Separate from demons and Catholicism and all that kind of like the Bible -based elements of it, I just do think there are hauntings.

[612] I just do think there's unexplained things.

[613] And if it like escalates to a point where you need an expert, at least there's an expert to go to.

[614] Yeah.

[615] And someone who believes you, who isn't like, you're crazy, your son is crazy, send them to psychiatrists or send them into an institution.

[616] It's like, we believe you that there's something going on here.

[617] Right.

[618] That does probably give them some, some, like, comfort.

[619] Because then, because if it was all fake, then that family would have to be faking, too, and that never really makes sense.

[620] Yeah, totally.

[621] Sometimes it does.

[622] I don't know.

[623] Yeah.

[624] I mean, well.

[625] I think they get swept up in it.

[626] I don't think they're faking it as much as.

[627] they get swept up in this idea.

[628] It's an 11 -year -old kid, which isn't a really reliable narrator.

[629] So, like, they're getting swept up in it, too, and they probably believe what they're seeing.

[630] And people are believing their wild imagination.

[631] It gets exciting, probably, to get all that attention.

[632] I'm sure.

[633] Yeah.

[634] I don't know.

[635] I wish I knew the truth.

[636] I know.

[637] Me too.

[638] But they're not the only ones being called out by skeptics.

[639] People think Cheyenne's lawyer, the student Martin Manella is only, they think he's only in it for fame and exposure as well.

[640] Perhaps giving us some insight into his headspace at the time, he tells the Washington Post, quote, everyone is interested in this case, everyone.

[641] We've got calls from Australia, from Switzerland, from England, everywhere.

[642] When I went to London, they recognized me on the street.

[643] All the top studios are interested in this, all the top producers.

[644] Of course, my position is that we won't talk until this trial is over.

[645] My client is more important to me. obviously.

[646] Oh, dude.

[647] That's not, you know, if you wanted to say anything to argue my stance, you really did it basically in one lawyer's statement.

[648] Because that's everything that's wrong with everything.

[649] Totally.

[650] Not a good, not a good quote.

[651] Bragging about what studios are involved in your client's murder case is bad form in many ways.

[652] Yes, very much.

[653] I'm sure the bar frowns upon it.

[654] Ahead of the trial, lots of people assume Cheyenne will plead not guilty by reason of insanity.

[655] Others, including the police, see this is nothing more than an open and shut case of two intoxicated men getting into an argument that escalated to violence.

[656] But instead, the defense goes all in on demonic possession.

[657] Martin argues that if Cheyenne was possessed, there's no way he can be guilty because it wasn't technically him that killed Allen, if that's the case, it was demons.

[658] But when the trial begins, the judge outright rejects the defense's argument.

[659] He calls their case, quote, irrelevant and unscientific.

[660] This pisses Martin, the lawyer, off, and he goes right to the top.

[661] He tries to have the judge disqualified from the case.

[662] But it doesn't work.

[663] He's got so many studios interesting.

[664] He can't have a judge like that.

[665] He's like, I need this case to be about demonic possession, please.

[666] Do you understand people are calling me from Germany, Australia?

[667] I'll name a couple of other countries.

[668] He can't even believe it.

[669] Producers, the top producers.

[670] Phone calls.

[671] We're getting calls.

[672] on the phone, I tell you.

[673] So essentially, the prosecution's case is just that they had, both men had been heavily drinking that day.

[674] And it's true, the waitress at the restaurant who served them said that she, that they drank a couple carafts of red wine each, which red wine.

[675] Oh, man. Each person?

[676] Yeah, each man. So they were drunk.

[677] Then the ambulance driver also testified, said he overheard Debbie telling her father by then who was on site that, quote, oh, daddy.

[678] He didn't mean to do it.

[679] You know how he gets when he's been drinking.

[680] So it kind of points, the prosecution's able to kind of point to it not being the devil that killed Allen.

[681] Yeah.

[682] All this leaves Martin to change course a bit.

[683] And he begins suggesting that Cheyenne acted in self -defense, which is a smart move to change your defense.

[684] Cheyenne himself testifies that Alan was drunk and provoked the altercation.

[685] And he also claims he can't remember anything except Alan running towards him with Cheyenne's own five -inch knife.

[686] But that's unclear, too.

[687] On November 24, 1981, the jury convict Cheyenne a first -degree manslaughter, meaning they do accept that he didn't intend to kill Allen, only injure him.

[688] On December 18th, he's sentenced to 10 to 20 years in prison, which is the maximum penalty.

[689] He and Debbie Mary, while he's in prison, so they stay together, which is always sweet.

[690] And then in January, 1986, he's released from prison early due to good behavior.

[691] So he only serves five years of that 10 to 20.

[692] 20 -year sentence.

[693] And he moves back into Debbie's home.

[694] In 1983, Lorraine Warren helps author Jared Brittle write a book on the case.

[695] It's called The Devil in Connecticut.

[696] Gerald conducts over 100 hours of recorded interviews with the Glatcells and gets their sign -off before the book is published.

[697] It's a huge hit, and the Warren's allegedly told the GlassSells they'd get a portion of the book sales, but they only receive about $2 ,000 after its publication.

[698] So that's all I get out of it.

[699] Now let's skip ahead 20 years.

[700] Ed Warren passes away in the summer of 2006 and the same year the devil in Connecticut is republished, prompting now 37 -year -old David Glatzell, who was the kid, and his older brother, Carl, to sue Jared Brittle Lorraine Warren and her agent William Morris and the publishers for unspecified damages.

[701] The brothers claim that the republication of the book intentionally inflicts emotional distress and is a violation of their privacy and that the book has negatively affected their lives.

[702] The suit claims that the intense media attention surrounding the trial in the book caused the brothers to drop out of school, lose friends, and miss out on career opportunity.

[703] Most damaging, Carl also claims that the whole story about David being possessed is a hoax.

[704] Oh.

[705] And that it was invented by the Warrens solely to raise their public profile.

[706] Wow.

[707] In fact, Carl's lawsuit says that David was experiencing serious mental health issues, which he's since recovered from.

[708] So if Carl's telling the truth, and it's all really bleak, remember, David was just a child when this trial was playing out in the public eye, and he had to live with this asterisk by his name that he was the demonically possessed boy of the story his entire life.

[709] All this causes a very understandable rift in the family.

[710] Carl Sr., Carl's father, and the patriarch of the family, stands with his sons and their lawsuit.

[711] Meanwhile, Cheyenne and Debbie are completely team Lorraine.

[712] And Debbie and Lorraine actually maintained a close friendship until Lorraine's death in 2019.

[713] So they think Carl's lawsuit is an attempt to make a quick buck.

[714] And Lorraine maintains that David was possessed.

[715] And ultimately, the lawsuit's dismissed.

[716] Does that make sense?

[717] Yes, it does.

[718] And that idea that Lorraine, who wasn't...

[719] is trying to say she knows better than the brother who was there bothers me a lot.

[720] I never...

[721] Look, I never defended the Warrens.

[722] I mean, I wanted to keep an open mind, but that is not a good stance.

[723] And if the family actually comes forward and says, hey, this is actually what happened.

[724] And this was not the experience that the popular culture was saying it was.

[725] And we actually have something to say about it, that's not making a quick buck.

[726] That's getting damages for your family having gone through something and obviously other people making a ton of money off of it and cutting you out.

[727] Yeah.

[728] And basically you going, that's not even what happened.

[729] It's not true.

[730] Yeah.

[731] And being like, I'm going to take this republishing of this book down because it's not true and it's ruining my life yet again.

[732] So this is why this is a lawsuit about that, not that I need to make a quick book.

[733] Yeah.

[734] Many of the details of this case I mean we're never going to know what's fact or fiction and many of the details are warped and sensationalizes the story has been told so many times we do know that the Warren's account has become the most predominant and it was even the inspiration for the third film in the conjuring franchise released in 2021 called The Devil Made Me Do It so it was the topic of one of the movies around the time the movie came out Debbie passes away from cancer leaving behind Cheyenne and their two children.

[735] Cheyenne is 60 years old now and is believed to be still alive, but there's no news about where he is today.

[736] From all accounts, it appears he's happy to fade into obscurity and live a private life.

[737] And that is the demon murder trial.

[738] Wow.

[739] That's, I mean, very compelling.

[740] Great job.

[741] Thank you.

[742] But also, I mean, like I said, it's like, it's movies you've seen.

[743] It's like books you've read.

[744] It's everything.

[745] It's so a satanic panic -themed like story.

[746] And yet I've never heard it.

[747] Me neither.

[748] Even though it was a book.

[749] When you said the name of the book, I feel like I've heard the name of the book, but I didn't know it.

[750] That's so crazy.

[751] Yeah, I didn't know how much you love a possession and an exorcism.

[752] That's something that's kind of new that you get so excited about it.

[753] Well, because I wish I knew what the truth was.

[754] And I, as most people do, you always like to pick a side and then become convinced of the other side.

[755] That's like the fun of having these discussions.

[756] Yes, definitely.

[757] If you're not taking it too seriously and you're kind of using it more as like a thought experiment of like what actually is possible in this world that we know about.

[758] And there are plenty of stories that are unexplained and that's compelling.

[759] And then where does that, you know, butt up against conspiracy theory and basically taking it too far?

[760] Totally.

[761] That's to me what is.

[762] is compelled, you know, something happened to that little boy that was bad.

[763] Yeah.

[764] And what happened around that, and if it was like mental illness, that's really tragic that then that little boy went untreated and it was turned into some sort of media circus for other people's profit.

[765] Totally.

[766] That is the darkest story of all.

[767] You don't need Satan.

[768] Yeah.

[769] That's just, that's the evil of, like, people doing day -to -day evil shit.

[770] That's true.

[771] true.

[772] Could you tell that I was really trying to stretch it out so that we do one story?

[773] I've done it myself before, so yes.

[774] When we suddenly get in to say things like this is a thought experiment, you know that we're stretching because it's the holiday season.

[775] It's the holiday season.

[776] Let us have one story at a time so we can spend our nights with our loved ones.

[777] Come on.

[778] Yeah, it's, we're recording on home gym's birthday.

[779] So it's a home gym birthday, a dinner night.

[780] That is a holiday.

[781] Like, that is a major national holiday in my book.

[782] I think so, too.

[783] Yeah.

[784] So I think that if I go this week and you go next time, then I think it's for the greater home gym good.

[785] It's what home gym wants for America.

[786] That's true.

[787] And I think that it's our job to execute his plan for America.

[788] He was a firefighter, you guys.

[789] Don't be jealous.

[790] I don't know.

[791] He's a hero, but also that was actually great and fun to talk about.

[792] I think the satanic panic whole thing, there are so many elements to it.

[793] Could do a whole episode just on the satanic panic.

[794] Yeah, for sure.

[795] But I think you could do, I mean, and I think many people have done, like, whole limited series about different things that went through it.

[796] But, like, the part of it where no one was really in connection, there was no internet, you know, it was, we were still in, like, road.

[797] phone or like push button phone era there was just it was so much harder to dispel those kinds of trends and rumors than it is now totally these days that thing would that like thing would last about four days yeah nobody's talking about that anymore thank god thank god people don't people don't have a voice who believe in oh wait they do turns out everybody does turns that everyone has a voice now speaking of thanks for listening to ours this yeah this episode.

[798] We appreciate you guys.

[799] We like you.

[800] We've told you.

[801] We want you to believe us.

[802] We do.

[803] Please believe us.

[804] Please believe us.

[805] We'll see you next week.

[806] Stay sexy.

[807] And don't get murdered.

[808] Goodbye.

[809] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[810] This has been an exactly right production.

[811] Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[812] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[813] This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris.

[814] Our researchers are Marin McClash and Gemma Harris.

[815] Email your hometowns and fucking hurrays to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[816] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[817] Goodbye.

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