Chris Voss with Jordan and Mikhaila Peterson

[0] Welcome to Season 3, Episode 39 of the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

[1] I'm Michaela Peterson, Jordan's daughter.

[2] This is a very recent interview with Chris Voss.

[3] The video version of the podcast is available on my YouTube channel.

[4] I originally invited Chris Voss onto my podcast, but Dad wanted to join, and obviously I was thrilled with that opportunity.

[5] I love podcasting with Dad.

[6] So if you want the video format, type in Chris Voss, Jordan Peterson on YouTube, and I'm sure the video will pop up.

[7] Chris Voss is an American businessman, author, and the CEO of the Black Swan Group, which teaches people how to negotiate.

[8] He co -authored Never Split the Difference, a book on how to negotiate, and a book on his experience as an FBI negotiator.

[9] This episode is brought to you by Skillshare.

[10] Skillshare is an online learning community, and it's offering our listeners a free trial of their premium membership.

[11] If you find yourself scrolling through socials or on Netflix too much, something like Skillshare is a better use of your time.

[12] There are so many fascinating classes there on topics including illustration, design, photography, animation, or productivity, starting a small business, coding.

[13] I think I'm going to be taking Greg McEwen's course on productivity in the new year.

[14] Skillshare offers classes designed for real life so you can squish your learning experience into your life without putting your life on hold.

[15] Their short classes are a great fit for a busy routine.

[16] You can create real projects, get the support of fellow creatives, so you can accomplish real growth.

[17] Explore your creativity at Skillshare .com slash Peterson, where our listeners get a free trial of premium membership.

[18] That's two weeks free at Skillshare .com slash Peterson.

[19] I also wanted to mention dad's self -authoring program because of the new year.

[20] With code MP, you can get 15 % off.

[21] He wanted me to mention it because of New Year's resolutions.

[22] And his program is absolutely fantastic, a no -frills approach to goal setting and planning your future.

[23] The code MP, works on his self -authoring suite, which gets you to write your past, present, and future, and figure out goals and how to accomplish them.

[24] That's self -authoring .com code MP for 15 % off.

[25] Great for your New Year's resolution.

[26] Hope you enjoy this episode.

[27] If you do, remember to subscribe.

[28] Very pleased to have with us today, us being Kayla Peterson and Jordan Peterson.

[29] Chris Boss, who's currently CEO of Black Swan Consulting, was formerly the FBI's talk Kidnap International Kidnapping Negotiator and is the author of Never Split the Difference A book offering to teach its readers The Fine Art of Successful Negotiation.

[30] Thanks very much for joining us today, Chris.

[31] I enjoyed your book a lot and I'm looking forward to your stories.

[32] Yeah, thank you.

[33] It's my pleasure.

[34] It's awesome to be on with you guys.

[35] much appreciated I'm interested in negotiation because I'm the clinical psychologist and a lot of what clinical psychologists do is negotiate with their clients for behavioral change but also teach their clients to negotiate successfully with the people around them to get what they want and negotiation is a very underdeveloped skill in most people So I'm wondering how you came to develop an interest in a thing, and we'll go from there.

[36] Well, let me quote the great, I like to say, quote the great actor, Rocky Balboi, and I couldn't sing a dance.

[37] I was, you know, I was with the FBI, I was a SWAT guy.

[38] I had to get out of SWAT because of recurring injuries, but I want to stay in crisis response.

[39] And so, you know, we had hostage negotiators.

[40] I knew they were around.

[41] I didn't know what they do.

[42] It didn't seem that hard, right?

[43] You know, I could talk to terrorists, is what I thought.

[44] Got into it, it was fantastic.

[45] It was, you know, I had to sort of fight my way in, not really fight my way, and I had to work to get in.

[46] I was eminently unqualified before I became a negotiator.

[47] But my first step was to volunteer on a suicide hotline, and, you know, the opportunity to influence people in short periods of time blew me away.

[48] You're really counterintuitive methods.

[49] And one thing led to another.

[50] I taught negotiation at Harvard and collaborated on book with some people and I've been teaching negotiation ever since.

[51] It's just been phenomenal.

[52] It's great to have a positive impact.

[53] I'm sure as you feel, you know, you have the opportunity to have a positive impact on people.

[54] It's enormously satisfying.

[55] So what made you think that the skills that you had picked up as a negotiator in these crisis situations would be applicable to people in their day -to -day concerns?

[56] Yeah, you know, great question.

[57] I mean, I suspected early on when I was volunteering on the hotline, like, is this just people in crisis or is it just people?

[58] And I started using the skills in my day -to -day life, you know, and it impacted all my relationships and made me a better hostage negotiator.

[59] And when I first started collaborating with Harvard, and they invited me to come and attend the law school's negotiation course.

[60] Instructors up there were teaching and were saying like, look, man, you're doing the same thing we're doing.

[61] The stakes are different, but the dynamics are absolutely the same.

[62] And that was, you know, with sort of their blessing and their understanding ended up teaching there later.

[63] But the dynamics are same.

[64] It's human behavior, regardless of what the circumstances.

[65] are, we're wired in certain ways, and as human beings, we all have the same wiring, as you know.

[66] So I'm going to get into some of your, what would you call, tactical strategies, I guess.

[67] And speaking of the clinical connection, when I was reading your book, the first thing that came to mind is that the techniques in general sounded very much like those that were put forth by Carl Rogers to ensure successful clinical transformation.

[68] And lo and behold, about how it was.

[69] through the book, you make direct reference to Carl Rogers.

[70] And he was a great, well, he was really the formalizer, I think, of the idea of active listening and reflection, particularly the idea that you should put yourself in the shoes of the other person, but also to ensure that you're hearing them properly, you should repeat what they said back to them in paraphrased manner and see if you actually got the gist of their conversation.

[71] Right.

[72] So to some degree, you concentrate on that, I guess, in the section, well, it's not so much labeling.

[73] Statement mirroring, I guess, is your term.

[74] With the pause.

[75] Well, you know, there's a couple.

[76] I mean, we've really sort of really defined all the different skills in real specific detail.

[77] And I was one of the things that the Harvard guy said to me because we're on the same path, but FBI, we're a little bit further down it.

[78] And they said, you know, we're both talking about the.

[79] the same skills you've defined them and with much more clarity because principally in law enforcement, you know, cops, FBI agents, you know, we want specifics of how to do something and then we'll take it and we'll road test it.

[80] So mirroring versus labeling, we would call two different things and even the different types of labels and, you know, we take what we learn with the world learned.

[81] We collective man in Canada psychology and we added neuroscience.

[82] We started trying to hit very specific parts of the brain to create very specific reactions.

[83] So yeah, mirroring, I would define mirroring is repeating the last one to three words of what someone just said or selected one to three words versus labeling.

[84] I'm looking for emotional nuances, dynamics.

[85] Well, one of the things that struck me with labeling is that, you know, people might respond positively to that.

[86] We should, I'll let you define it momentarily, but people should respond positively to that Because it's often the case that when people are in a discussion or negotiating, that they don't actually know what they're bringing to the table or what they want.

[87] And so if they're floundering about in a somewhat emotion -ridden and stressed manner, and you put your finger on what it is that they're trying to say, then you're actually articulating something for them that's still only being processed at the level of bodily response.

[88] And people find out a great relief if you can do it accurately because you've summed up a very complicated set of physiological disturbances with a single utterance and kind of enable them to see the pathway forward.

[89] Yeah, no, absolutely.

[90] And it doesn't even have to be that accurate, you know, which is the thing that neuroscientists taught us, you know, oxytocin dopamine, depend upon what neurochemical is being hit.

[91] I mean, when you're inaccurate and they correct you to actually get a hit of dopamine, which they love.

[92] I mean, people hate being corrected, but they love to correct.

[93] It's a great way to create a bond that the other person doesn't even know is being built.

[94] Well, and if you're incorrect and you're labeling at least the person then has something they can object to that's going to.

[95] You talk about that a bit, right?

[96] The importance of getting somebody to say no. That was interesting.

[97] Is it possible to describe that a little bit?

[98] yeah no is one of the craziest words and we you know hearing it we're taught when we're little you know what's the first word every child learns no yeah they love that word yeah yeah they get hammered with it over and over again so we're conditioned that when we hear we've done something wrong but at the same time we're conditioned when we say it we protected ourselves so if i get you to say no you feel protected you're going to want to talk you're going to you're going to feel good about the interaction, you're not going to feel threatened.

[99] You're more likely to open up.

[100] I mean, even something as little is nobody in my company says to anybody, have you got a few minutes to talk?

[101] It's always, it's now a bad time to talk.

[102] Complete change in the other side's reaction.

[103] Right.

[104] And so you say instead, is this a bad time to talk?

[105] Right, yeah.

[106] Right.

[107] Or even like, I won't say, is this a good idea?

[108] I'll say, is this a dumb idea?

[109] And you'll probably go like, no, it's not a dumb idea, but here are the following problems.

[110] Here's what we've got to do.

[111] I mean, it's a complete change in reaction.

[112] Yeah, well, you know, if you watch two -year -olds with no, because they really latch on to that word, it's really remarkable.

[113] And the reason for that is that it enables them to protect themselves against being hijacked by other people, right?

[114] It's actually the word that defines the boundary between them and the world and enables them to have some mortality.

[115] It's amazing.

[116] I remember I babysat a little kid at one point, or maybe it was my old son.

[117] It might have been Julian.

[118] No, I think it was a kid I was babysitting.

[119] He was unbelievably stubborn little kid.

[120] And I was trying to get him to do something just to interact with me. And I offered him a bunch of different enticements.

[121] You as a psychologist is having trouble getting a two -year -old to cooperate?

[122] Well, this was a particularly, this was a particularly stubborn little two -year -old.

[123] But he felt no. There are bloodline connections?

[124] Is that why it was so?

[125] No, no, no. This was truly, this was truly the neighbor's child, actually.

[126] But he was willing to say no, the M &M's and ice cream, which was, he caught himself when he noticed that he had said it.

[127] But the no was such an attractive proposition to him that he was willing to progo even basic immediate rewards just for the thrill of being able to maintain that autonomy.

[128] Yeah.

[129] So we should go through your technique, let's see.

[130] Yeah, your techniques with some order.

[131] So I'm going to read a couple, and maybe you could just describe what you mean by them.

[132] So you have tactical empathy, for example.

[133] Yeah, sure.

[134] I mean, we're trying to take, first of all, the point of calling it that was taking it out of today's common usage of empathy is sympathy or even compassion.

[135] Now, I would argue that I would offer that empathy is a very compassionate thing.

[136] to do.

[137] But going back to the real reason I first started collaborating with Harvard, you know, they said empathy is not agreement.

[138] It's not sympathy.

[139] It's not even liking the other side.

[140] It's just completely understanding.

[141] The basis on from Rogers in psychology, the stuff that anybody that's pursued this is study.

[142] Now, let's add in neuroscience, tactically, tactically, we know that the amygdala is kind of the crossroads of all our thoughts.

[143] And it's wired to be negative, 75 % negative.

[144] And tactically, we know that simply identifying a negative diminishes it, not denying it, identifying it.

[145] You think I'm a jerk.

[146] Ah, no, I don't think you're that much of a jerk.

[147] By saying that you've diminished it in the other side.

[148] So let's just put a tactical application to our empathy, knowing that the negative emotions have four times the impact, at least, on people's thinking.

[149] So let's approach and come in through a different door.

[150] And it's tactical because, well, this is something that needs to be clarified too, is that when you're negotiating, what is it striving to attain?

[151] Do you think it's, and if it's a win, you know, people conceptualize that the success of a negotiation in different ways.

[152] It could be you win, which means you get what you want.

[153] It could be win -win, in which case both people get what they want.

[154] You can go beyond that because you could say that in a really successful negotiation, People even discover new things they didn't know they wanted, and they get those too.

[155] So, you know, tactical towards what end?

[156] If you had a philosophy of negotiation, what might that be?

[157] You know, the philosophy is great collaboration, which requires long -term relationships.

[158] And ideally, every deal kicks stuff out that you didn't expect that delighted you, which is going to addict you to want to continue to deal with me, great long -term relationship.

[159] If every deal we're in, you're delighted, you can't wait to do another one.

[160] Right, so that's absolutely crucial because it puts within a real moral framework, right?

[161] Because otherwise you could learn to negotiate for psychopathic reasons, which would be only short -term interests of yourself.

[162] But if you put it in a framework where you're trying to set yourself up and play repeatedly with the same person or like a whole variety of different people, then an ethic automatically enters into it.

[163] Right.

[164] Your reputation precedes you.

[165] I mean, you get reputation for doing nothing but good for people.

[166] People line up to do business with you.

[167] Right, exactly.

[168] And reputation is actually the marker for your utility as a long -term partner.

[169] Yeah.

[170] Yep.

[171] How did that work with specifically FBI negotiations?

[172] I mean, if you're dealing with somebody like a hostage taker, How does that end up being a win for them?

[173] Yeah, well, first of all, the crazy thing is hostage negotiators have reputational concerns.

[174] You know, we have repeat customers.

[175] And even if the guy that we're dealing with, even if he goes to jail and number comes out, how we handle them is going to get into the media.

[176] So reputation is an immediate concern.

[177] And, you know, people are so driven by where it's taking them in a long run.

[178] I mean, if somebody has a vision of the future, no matter how far down the line that vision is, that's a good thing.

[179] Now we get something to talk about.

[180] And, you know, my first response with a bank robber is really going to be, sounds like you want to survive.

[181] Of course they do.

[182] Otherwise, they'd have come out and gotten shot already.

[183] Now we get something to talk about.

[184] How do you deal with the people who don't want to survive?

[185] You can pick that up pretty quickly.

[186] You know, you're going to know right off the back.

[187] If you're there to hear it, and the analogy in the business world, not everybody wants to do the deal with you.

[188] Maybe they want to exploit you.

[189] Maybe they want to take advantage of you.

[190] Maybe they see it as a one -off.

[191] Maybe they're playing you for a fool.

[192] You've got to pick that up in your everyday negotiations as well.

[193] And you'll hear it if you're open to hearing it.

[194] It's avoiding preconceived notions.

[195] is what really shuts you down.

[196] Being too focused on a goal gives you tunnel vision.

[197] Well, I really like the repeated game analogy.

[198] One of the things I've lectured about is that you tell your children it isn't important whether they win or lose.

[199] It's important how they play the game.

[200] You do.

[201] But you do, yeah.

[202] But you don't necessarily understand what that means, why you're telling your child that.

[203] And they might say, well, it's obviously important that I win, so I don't know what you're telling me. But the goal of proper play is to be invited to play as many games as possible, not to win that particular game, even though you also want to win that.

[204] So you lay out this ethic, which is to make yourself the best collaborator, the most desirable possible collaborator across the longest term with the largest number of people.

[205] And then you can put these techniques to use, which out without them being cold, harsh, techniques of manipulation.

[206] Yeah, I was going to say the big difference between manipulation and influence is really where are you taking me. Manipulation is when I'm trying to hurt you.

[207] Influence is when I'm trying to help you.

[208] Same set of skills, but where are you coming from, where you're trying to go.

[209] Right, right.

[210] And with most business relationships, people get cynical about this, but most business relationships are, in fact, relationships.

[211] You know, I was really struck by this.

[212] It's even more so in the business.

[213] business world than it is in the academic world, because in the academic world, you put forward a claim, and at least in the more scientifically oriented fields, the validity of your claim is dependent on the degree to which you follow proper scientific procedure.

[214] So there's an objective way of assessing your ability.

[215] But in business, it's a lot softer than that in some manner because the measurement techniques for assessing the other person's ability aren't so clearly there.

[216] And so relationship becomes crucial.

[217] And it's very interesting to me to understand negotiation as the skill that makes capitalism intensely human because it brings it under the necessity of it shows how tightly associated successful business development is with playing the game with other people property.

[218] And that helps you avoid cynicism about the entire process, I would say.

[219] Yeah, I agree completely.

[220] I mean, our co -author, I mean, a book is written between myself, my son, Brandon, and Tall Ross.

[221] Now, Tall is a brilliant dude.

[222] I mean, I would read anything, any business book that he's written.

[223] I don't know that I'd read any of his poetry, but I'd read his business books.

[224] And one of the things that he pointed out to us is by definition as a species, the only ones of us that survived were the ones that collaborated.

[225] We're hard -wired to collaborate.

[226] So if you increase your collaboration skills, more people are going to want to do business with you.

[227] And to your point, it's not always that measurable in an immediate, number.

[228] It may be a secondary or tertiary benefit, but you become wealthy by being a great collaborator.

[229] Is there any difference between negotiating with women versus men?

[230] Well, that's a loaded question.

[231] Not for sure.

[232] We're going to get into differences between men and women.

[233] I would love to do that because women pick this style of negotiation up faster than the men.

[234] them.

[235] Now, at the top end, and we've got some fairly qualitative data to back that up.

[236] Women are, it's hard there's so much nurture going on, it's hard to separate nature from nurture.

[237] Women are nurtured more to pick up on emotion sooner.

[238] They're nurtured more to pick up on soft power sooner and have an appreciation for emotional dynamics and how to use soft power.

[239] And so that's why I think that women have a tendency to be better at this.

[240] I mean, some of the people that are great negotiators and are the biggest fans of are women.

[241] Would you say, you said soft power?

[242] Yeah, well, little boys and little girls.

[243] Little boys are taught to fight, little girls, the women that bring them up know that inevitably they're not going to be the more physically powerful.

[244] So they are nurtured early on to figure out how to get things without physically fighting them.

[245] how do you keep your emotions under check when you're negotiating?

[246] That is the challenge.

[247] And depending upon, you know, there's a couple different hacks.

[248] And they all take practice, just like any of the soft skill.

[249] If you're genuinely curious, it's not possible to get upset.

[250] If you can stay in a genuinely curious frame of mind.

[251] You're one of the people I'm also a big fan of Stephen Kotler.

[252] He talks about the psychology of.

[253] flow, highly positive state of mind.

[254] Curiosity is positive.

[255] You're smarter.

[256] Your brain is quicker.

[257] And when you're genuinely curious, you can't get angry.

[258] Interesting cat I run across recently, Darrell Davis, black musician who talks Klu Klux Klan members into quitting a Klan.

[259] And I had a conversation with them about it.

[260] And people say, well, how do you not get upset with these people?

[261] that, you know, you're a black dude.

[262] They openly say that they want to murder you.

[263] He says, well, I grew up internationally.

[264] I just look at it as a different culture, and I'm just completely curious about where they're coming from and what are they thinking about.

[265] It leaves him in a state of mind where he can deal with people that are against him personally, but he's just curious about it.

[266] That's interesting.

[267] You know, one of the most useful general psychological techniques in relationship to life, and its challenges is voluntary exploration.

[268] And it's a particular physiological mode of being.

[269] It's a very old brain center known as the hypothalamus, which controls basic drives like hunger and thirst and temperature regulation and defensive aggression.

[270] And part of it also controls exploration.

[271] And so if you switch into a mode of voluntary exploration, that's a mode of being that's deeply hardwired and that develops your entire being.

[272] But it allows you to pick up information, right?

[273] And we are information scabbable to the beings.

[274] And so, and that's because you can trade information for valuable things, like food, you know.

[275] So if you, if you're in this, I'm struck in your book by your emphasis on unknown unknowns, Black Swans you've called them at the end, you said, like if you're listening very carefully people, you can pick up these unknown unknowns.

[276] And that is a consequence of voluntary exploration.

[277] And having, it's useful to pick up on those, not only for the conversation that you're having presently, but because of what the consequences for that conversation might be for conversations down the road.

[278] And so the man that you just described, he opens himself up, he says, well, these people are from a completely different culture than me. Maybe there's some valuable things I can learn from them, regardless of our differences in opinion, and those things are of such value that they might be portable.

[279] And it is unbelievably useful to approach the world in that matter, because then everyone you encounter is a goldmined information, especially if they don't agree with you.

[280] Because they're full of assumptions you don't have, and you can find out something new as a consequence.

[281] That's way better than just having your own opinions bolster.

[282] which is reassuring, but it doesn't offer you anything new.

[283] Yeah, all those things are completely true.

[284] I mean, and by definition, the unknown unknowns is really where the hidden stuff overlaps.

[285] In any given interaction, the other side is hiding stuff, I'm hiding stuff.

[286] How do we know what happens when the hidden's overlap?

[287] That's why the deal can always be made better.

[288] I like that throughout where the hidden's overlap.

[289] That's cool.

[290] Now that's cool.

[291] That is cool.

[292] I think for another practical question.

[293] Practically, you guys didn't tell me this was going to be a practical interview.

[294] I thought we were just going to have some fun.

[295] Dad has fun.

[296] I just asked practical questions repeatedly in my podcast.

[297] I'm glad I've got the combinations.

[298] But if you're trying to, like, I think the one negotiation that would benefit everyone is how to go to whoever they're working for and try and get more money, look for a raise.

[299] And I know, especially if you're more agreeable, a lot of people are worried about that and have no idea where to start.

[300] So do you have tips for negotiating a raise?

[301] Yeah, sure.

[302] Get off the, you know, raise is the price term in any negotiation.

[303] You know, your salary pays your bills, but it doesn't build your career.

[304] You know, price takes care of the immediate problems.

[305] What are your long -term problems?

[306] Your long -term problems are how do you build a career?

[307] job negotiations should be about building your career making yourself more valuable to the team and one of two things is going to happen your salary is going to get drug along as a result or if it's not you're more valuable and you shop yourself to the highest better how do you become more valuable you know um here's a phrase for every job negotiation for every annual review How can I be guaranteed to be involved in the strategic projects that are critical to the company's future?

[308] Instantaneous change in the way your employer views you.

[309] Because when you go in and ask for a raise, empathy is about how does the other side see you?

[310] The other side sees you is selfish.

[311] And most employers, most bosses, whenever the employee comes walking in the door, They're after something for themselves.

[312] You condition your boss that you're selfish.

[313] You may not like that reality, but it's unfortunately the reality.

[314] When you change their conversation to how can I help us all prosper, now suddenly your boss, your employer goes like, oh.

[315] Now here's somebody I want to have around.

[316] Here's somebody that's going to make my life better.

[317] Conversation is instantly transformed.

[318] Now, either you'll get more money.

[319] you'll have greater experiences because also you don't want to be involved in a mundane at work if you're courageous you want the big ticket item you want to have an impact and then even if they don't give you a raise the experience of being involved makes you five times more marketable than you were before the year started yeah so you your advice basically is that you adopt a much broader mindset which is something like How can I be optimally successful in this company?

[320] And what optimal success is going to require is being a key player in the most important things that the company does.

[321] That's also going to be allied with the willingness to take on additional responsibility, not to see that as a negative.

[322] People often avoid responsibility, but if you can take it on voluntarily, there's no difference between responsibility and opportunity.

[323] if the company is operating profit.

[324] Yeah, what is that responsibility, too?

[325] You now, the highest levels of your company, now have an investment in making sure you succeed.

[326] So you've just gone from being maybe somebody struggling by themselves.

[327] Your responsibilities are critical to everybody's future and everybody has a stake in you doing well because that's what you've taken on.

[328] I mean, it's a virtuous cycle, if you were.

[329] Yes.

[330] It also makes you difficult to replace and therefore much more effective in your salary negotiations.

[331] Amen, absolutely.

[332] You had some really nice, very practical tips for people negotiating their initial salary.

[333] I thought two of these were really smart.

[334] One was if you're being interviewed for a new position and you're asked to define your starting salary to offer a range to say something like, well, People in this position are often offered $125 ,000 to $175 ,000 a year as a starting salary.

[335] And to strategically do that so that your desired salary is in the bottom end of that range.

[336] Are you going to fall for that?

[337] Well, it's a good question.

[338] Yes, yes, is that short answer according to the book.

[339] But it's interesting that you would phrase it as fall for that.

[340] Because that is the danger of techniques is that they can become manipulative, you know?

[341] So that's why I wanted to talk about the broader ethic.

[342] And you also mentioned that it's smart for someone who's negotiating for their first position to also negotiate metrics for their first grades, which is even more important, right?

[343] It's like you can negotiate for how your salary is going to increase in the future rather than what it's going to be right at the beginning.

[344] But I like Michaela's question.

[345] Would you regard that offering as a range, offering of a range as manipulative?

[346] No, I'm not manipulative.

[347] I mean, I'm a nice guy.

[348] What are you guys talking about about that I regard that is manipulative?

[349] You know, all right, so, and from some of the talks that I've heard you give, Jordan, and some other stuff, you know, there's always additional nuances and factors to consider, and you want to stay off of one thing.

[350] Like, first of all, just because what you're worth and what they can pay, you might not line up.

[351] And the experience for being there may be more valuable than the dollars.

[352] I got to tell you right now, I go work for minimum wage to be Warren Buffett's assistant for a year.

[353] I would get him coffee.

[354] I would do anything.

[355] And I might do it for free because that will be a position where I would learn so much.

[356] It's as much not handcuffing the other side and making you something.

[357] somebody they can't get based on the number you're looking for a great marriage so the range is to feel them out understand also when you give a range and it and the other side's numbers within that range they're going to take the end that most favors them so if you're going to give a range you better be willing to accept the bottom number they're not going to head in the middle right right What are the practical aspects of ranges?

[358] The question I had in relationship, Jim, that was exactly the manipulative angle.

[359] I mean, I guess maybe you could answer it.

[360] I would be happy with something in the range of 110 ,000 to 150 ,000.

[361] And because if you have to point out that other companies are making offers in this range, you have to know for sure that other companies were.

[362] I mean, there's no sense adding a falsehood to your negotiation for the purpose of picking up an advantage.

[363] That seems to me to be a very bad strategy.

[364] Falsehoods are a bad idea.

[365] I'm against any sort of deception by commission or omission.

[366] So, yeah, especially on that point.

[367] No, I wouldn't say something out.

[368] I didn't know.

[369] This accusation audit, we should maybe talk about that a little bit.

[370] That was something I found.

[371] now you derived that from your analysis of courtroom behavior of lawyers if I remember correct well it added to it I mean you know seeing it work in different in different areas it definitely added to our thinking what is that exactly if you don't mind yeah well you know it's first of all it's you know the the lawyers would call it getting out the uglies in advance you know if you got a if you got a witness that there's some ugly things about you bring it up first that the jury reconcile themselves to it before they listen to anything else.

[372] I work with some great prosecutors when I was with the FBI Southern District in New York.

[373] Now, in business, it's understanding what the negatives are in advance, what's crazy is when we begin to proactively get out in front of them.

[374] Like, if I get, let's say you got no negative about me at all.

[375] But I'm getting ready to say something that you're not going to like.

[376] I'll say, look, you're going to think I'm a real jerk for bringing us up.

[377] and then when I bring it up, it'll have far less impact.

[378] You'll never know what I headed you off from.

[379] And that's why we get really aggressive with going after the negatives early on and calling them up.

[380] Yeah, so the accusation audit allows you to lay out on the table all the weaknesses of your position and your character for that matter.

[381] And so there's a variety of reasons that that might be useful.

[382] One is that by indicating your willingness to admit to these faults, you show that the faults are small enough so that someone could admit to having them.

[383] That's the first thing.

[384] And the second thing is you show yourself as someone who's larger than their fault because they're willing to admit to them, right?

[385] So you minimize the fault in some sense, even though you're presenting them accuracy, accurately.

[386] You minimize their emotional impact or you decrease their emotional impact and you increase the integrity of your own character at the same time.

[387] And again, these are things that should be done honestly, not as a matter of technique.

[388] If you do an accusation audit, it should be a genuine life.

[389] And you should be doing it in part so that you, this is my understanding anyway, so that you are also as aware as you get, as aware as you need to be of the shortcomings you have in the negotiation.

[390] Yeah.

[391] I used to agree up to you like the teenager.

[392] I don't know if you remember.

[393] I remember, I don't know if this was a technique or just an evil thing to do, but I can remember coming home and saying, like some sort of terrible thing I had, this isn't exactly the same, but sometimes sort of a terrible thing I'd done.

[394] I was out drinking as we're doing this.

[395] This happened.

[396] Just kidding.

[397] But this actually did happen.

[398] And it would be, the second thing would be smaller.

[399] And I found that that really worked on not getting in as natural.

[400] You're like, thank God that didn't happen.

[401] That's not an accusation order.

[402] That's a, that's an anchoring technique, correct?

[403] Well, you know, depending upon how you deployed it, there's a combination of both there, yeah.

[404] So we could talk about the anchoring technique as well.

[405] We could.

[406] I mean, it's you guys a show.

[407] We'll talk about whatever you guys make me. You got me a hostage here.

[408] I'm your hostage.

[409] It sounds like you feel like you're a hostage.

[410] I'll take it all day long.

[411] So what is the anchored?

[412] technique, would you describe that?

[413] Well, yeah, I mean, the anchoring technique, and we're very, you know, you can anchor on a number, and we don't anchor on numbers.

[414] But I will tell you, we anchor emotionally.

[415] Like, if somebody wants to know what I, if somebody wants to know what I charge for consulting, I'm going to say, hi, more than you have, more than you ever pay.

[416] And we're not moving forward in this conversation until you asked me to give you the number.

[417] now in that period of time that we waited you're going to think of some crazy number and when I give you my number you're going to say like ah well that isn't that bad what comes with that and we now made the number something that that is irrelevant what's relevant really in all business negotiations is delivery and we over deliver so the anchoring that was a very subtle use of anchoring or description of anchoring there.

[418] The anchoring technique occurs.

[419] Imagine that you're always interpreting what's going on in a context of some sort.

[420] And so how big something is depends on the context.

[421] And so maybe you think a house, say, it's worth $135 ,000.

[422] And you find out the person wants $2 .5 million for it.

[423] Well, then if they come down to 500 ,000, you're going to think that's pretty reasonable because they anchored you at 2 million, even though you thought to begin with it was only $135 ,000.

[424] So that is what I did.

[425] Nice.

[426] Yeah, it's very, very treacherous and sneaky of you.

[427] Yeah.

[428] You still do that?

[429] I don't think so.

[430] I don't think so, but I'm not as debauchress as I once.

[431] Well, we've got to raise a level of your skills.

[432] We've got to get you guys more money.

[433] You know, we'll go offline and give you some coaching.

[434] Next time you'll be in one of five houses that you wanted to be in.

[435] You'll have studios all over the planet.

[436] You'll be in Fiji.

[437] You've been in Australia.

[438] I need help with getting along for negotiating.

[439] I get way too angry.

[440] And my husband is, he's amazing at it.

[441] Like, he said, like, I read your book.

[442] Lily's a good negotiator.

[443] He's married to you.

[444] Well, that's what he said, too.

[445] I was like, I don't get along with you very well.

[446] And it's like, yeah, but look where we are.

[447] Yes, you did win that round.

[448] Okay, another hint you have.

[449] Neutralize the negative and reinforce the positive.

[450] What do you mean by that?

[451] Yeah, well, simply calling out the negatives has a neutralizing effect on them to some degree every time, every single time.

[452] Now, how much the effect is varies.

[453] But again, if we go back to the neuroscience stuff and the amygdala is 75 % negative, you neutralize the negative.

[454] You get an opportunity for the positive to pick up some ground.

[455] If I say, it seems like you want to make a deal.

[456] If you genuinely do, then that will reinforce that feeling.

[457] Seems like you want a long -term relationship.

[458] Seems like terms are important to you.

[459] That will reinforce those positive aspects.

[460] if I say seems like you hate uncertainty the anxiety that you were feeling in the moment will diminish how much it diminishes I may need to neutralize it several times to get it out of the way but again our neuroscience wiring has laid out a lot of what people like you have instinctively come to know from your practice and your interaction with people where you guys were finding your way before we could map what was going on inside the brain.

[461] Are you married, Chris?

[462] There is an ex -Mrs.

[463] Voss, and I'm looking for the future ex -Mrs.

[464] Voss.

[465] Did your marriage fail as a consequence of poor negotiation?

[466] No, you know what?

[467] It really failed as a consequence of what all relationships fail at.

[468] It's no good or no bad, but a misalignment and core values.

[469] And there were things that were important to me, that weren't important to her, and vice versa.

[470] business relationships, personal relationships.

[471] At the end of the day, it's no good or no bad on either side.

[472] It's just enough of a difference in core values that you're entitled to go your way and I'm entitled to go mine and nobody's wrong.

[473] Right.

[474] So every consensable differences.

[475] It's a good terminology for it.

[476] Right.

[477] Well, you used to be acceptable grounds for divorce.

[478] Yeah.

[479] Yeah.

[480] I mean, you're not wrong.

[481] I'm not wrong.

[482] We just don't match up.

[483] How have the skills that you learn as a tactical hostage negotiator affected your more intimate relationships?

[484] You know, it's helped me to be more attentive.

[485] You know, it's an ongoing process.

[486] I'm still learning.

[487] I'm still making mistakes.

[488] I hope to be learning and making mistakes for at least, I'd say I'm a third of the way through my life, maybe another 100 years.

[489] But, you know, the idea of dialing into somebody and having a better long -term relationship and even thinking about that and getting better on it is very important to me. So, yeah, I still make mistakes, but, you know, I don't want anybody to regret having had a relationship with me, although some do.

[490] I think that happens to everybody.

[491] How do you negotiate with someone who, say in a hostage situation, who doesn't want to talk to?

[492] or isn't communicating.

[493] Other things you can do to get from stopping to tight -lipped?

[494] Yeah, well, take a step back.

[495] If somebody's being tight -lipped, one or two things are happening.

[496] First and foremost is probably they don't feel like talking to you is doing them any good because you're not listening.

[497] People get tight -lipped because communication isn't doing them any good.

[498] Now, they could be trapped in a corner and they could be helpless or you could be not listening.

[499] There are three possibilities.

[500] Another reason for being tight -lipped.

[501] Tight -lipped people trust incredibly.

[502] And they're a little bit afraid of how vulnerable they are because when they trust, they go all in.

[503] And they've been hurt.

[504] They've been badly hurt.

[505] So they're cautious because you resemble somebody that hurt them in a past.

[506] So if you think about what the possibilities are.

[507] First of all, you know, just adapt and begin, look, I haven't, clearly, I haven't won your trust yet.

[508] Well, if it's not about trust, but they're helpless, they're going to correct.

[509] They're going to say, no, it's not about trust.

[510] It's because there's nothing I could do.

[511] I'm trapped.

[512] There's nowhere I could go.

[513] But at that moment of time, you're in, now you're in dialogue, understanding what really is dialogue, even denial is dialogue.

[514] Somebody who gives you more than a one -word response who was previously type -lipped.

[515] Now they're testing to see if you're going to listen, if you're going to understand.

[516] Or if you're going to contradict or argue.

[517] People have tight -lipped with other people who are argumentative.

[518] Do you have any, or could you tell us one of your, I don't know if you're not to talk about the sense, but can you tell us a bit of process and the no -closure story?

[519] Is that allowed?

[520] Yeah, of course it's allowed, which, you know, there I was.

[521] Terrace to the left of me. Yeah, exactly.

[522] One of those?

[523] You know, there were two straight cases in the Philippines, and we talk about both of them in the book.

[524] One, the bad guy on the other side was sociopathic, rape and murdering, killing straight out of the movies terrorist.

[525] The type of person that empathy is not supposed to work on.

[526] Now, when do you know when the other side feels understood, when the other side says that's right?

[527] at a critical moment in that negotiation.

[528] And what I really was was an international negotiation coach.

[529] I'm coaching people in countries who are coachable.

[530] And I'm coaching a guy named Benji, and he's eminently coachable.

[531] We summarize the bad guy's point of view.

[532] You guys have been impressed for 500 years.

[533] Americans are horrible.

[534] Philippine government is horrible.

[535] You know, everything, everything he said, 500 years worth of emotional baggage.

[536] Bad guy literally says that's right.

[537] In that instance, a $10 million ransom demand evaporated, disappeared, went off the table.

[538] A couple of months later, we're continuing in the negotiation.

[539] No more monetary demands for the hostage.

[540] None.

[541] Non -monetary demands.

[542] Continued application of what we now refer to as tactical empathy.

[543] Hostage walks away on Mondi Thursday, the Thursday before Easter, walked away.

[544] And back in the Philippines, three weeks later, connected back up with Benji.

[545] We're working another case.

[546] He says, you're not going to believe we called me on the phone.

[547] The terrorist called him on the phone to tell him that he respected him.

[548] That's powerful stuff, because we were engaged with the same group again.

[549] And the guy, the terrorists, the sociopathic, called to express his receipts.

[550] for how he was treated had lost everything in the negotiation.

[551] They wanted $10 million.

[552] They got zero.

[553] So it stuff works.

[554] It works on everybody.

[555] It always leaves you better off.

[556] Does that mean that this terrorist wasn't actually interested in the $10 million?

[557] He was actually interested in being understood.

[558] What would you take away from that?

[559] You know, a lot on their way through, you know, what the other side is always interested in is the best.

[560] they could do.

[561] One of the things that I learned about in really kidnapping negotiations globally, kidnapping is a commodities exchange.

[562] They're businessmen on the other side.

[563] And what they're really interested in is the best that they could do.

[564] And the best you could do is often defined by how you feel during the process of the outcome.

[565] So they wanted $10 million or the best that they could possibly do.

[566] What does $10 million buy you?

[567] In this instance, $10 million, buys you influence.

[568] They started asking for other things that bought them influence.

[569] Let's get certain intermediaries involved, certain politicians.

[570] We want access to people.

[571] If we have more money, what do we spend that money on?

[572] Ultimately, guns.

[573] What do guns get you?

[574] Guns get you influence.

[575] Ultimately, people want soft power.

[576] So when they started looking for something else, after having their anger being deactivated, they also sort of lost control of their operation, which created the circumstances of our hostage walking away.

[577] Good things, it sounds ridiculous.

[578] Good things fall out of the sky if you let them happen.

[579] And that's one of the reasons to engage in this approach to negotiation because something good is going to happen if you give it the opportunity.

[580] Tell me what your company does exactly now.

[581] I mean, if you were hired by a business.

[582] Yeah, well, we coach, you know, we coach, we get hired by businesses all the time, but we really coach high performers to better lives.

[583] You coach the high performers specifically?

[584] Well, yeah, I mean, the people that are drawn to us are the high performers.

[585] And our marketing is, we're pointed much more at individuals and companies.

[586] Again, we coach companies, but companies, by and large, are relatively dysfunctional.

[587] Daniel Coyle in the culture code, I think you pointed out to stat that only 6 % of corporate executives could actually recite their corporate values.

[588] Well, and 40 % of managers have negative net value to the company.

[589] Yeah, there you go, right?

[590] Yeah.

[591] So, you know, these are people that are struggling with themselves, let alone new training.

[592] But we coach people into, that are making better lives for themselves and their families that are top performers.

[593] I mean, typically people that we coach in negotiations are cutting two or three life -changing deals a year as opposed to one every five or six years.

[594] Everybody that we coach, that we were coaching last year are wealthier right now than they were a year ago.

[595] How do they find you?

[596] Well, Black Swan LTD is, is the website, B -L -I -C -S -W -A -N -L -T -D .com.

[597] You know, the first step is a book, which, you know, you're kind enough to look through and appreciate and recognize how much that, you know, we're in sync with on our thinking.

[598] And then come to the website.

[599] We got free stuff, download it.

[600] Subscribe to our newsletter.

[601] It's free.

[602] It's actionable.

[603] Give us a chance to put your family in a bigger house.

[604] send your kids to a better school.

[605] Your book is titled Never Split the Difference.

[606] Yeah.

[607] So I always thought negotiation meant somebody has appointed you here and somebody has a point to come here and you want to find middle ground.

[608] What exactly do you mean by Never Split the Difference?

[609] You know, it's a two -way street.

[610] But splitting the difference, first of all, is a fool's error and for a number of reasons.

[611] compromise you know do you compromise your principles you know there was a there was a cartoon about marital a married couple a long time ago husband and a wife are talking to each other and the husband says let's compromise that way we'll both be unhappy you know compromise is a way to guarantee that you're both unhappy now there's some people that say well a great negotiations where both sides are a little unhappy is a great marriage where both sides are unhappy that's a definition of long -term unhappiness.

[612] So besides knowing what you want, don't compromise and meet in the middle.

[613] You're both going to be unhappy.

[614] Now what the other side wants may be even better than what you had in mind.

[615] A colleague, a friend, a mentor, somebody we do business with a guy named Dan Sullivan, recently wrote a book called Who Not How.

[616] He coaches the greatest entrepreneurs in the world.

[617] He heard me give a talk, and he decided how he was going to take a position with his partners on his book deal.

[618] The book that he just put out, the people that he collaborated with, he gave them every dime.

[619] Because I said sometimes what the other side wants, give them what they want.

[620] The guys that he collaborated with on that book, giving them every dime from the book, because the amount of business is going to develop for his company, which is going to be huge.

[621] They are killing themselves for him.

[622] I was on a conference call with them, Ben Hardy and Tucker Max.

[623] Tucker Max is a famous author in his own right.

[624] Tucker says, Dan got every drop of our blood on this book.

[625] Dan gave them every dime from the book because he knew how much it was going to bring him long term.

[626] So never split the difference also.

[627] The other side, give him their position and they will kill themselves through you.

[628] Yeah, so it's interesting, because compromise is a reasonable way of construing negotiation, I think, if you're deadlocked and you have to make a decision, and there's also time pressure.

[629] So then it seems to be under those circumstances that would be a reasonable heuristic to say, well, we'll split the difference, you will both be unhappy.

[630] No, how dare you?

[631] And there you, no, no, no, no. Let me develop that out for a moment, because there is something about negotiation that is, that is, and it's strictly associated with compromise.

[632] I don't think that's the best way of conceptualizing negotiation as such.

[633] See, because people are going to listen to this podcast, and they're going to think, no, no, no, sometimes you have to split the difference.

[634] No. No. Okay.

[635] I want to push you on that because Push me, don't push me hug me. Give me a hug.

[636] No, I'm going to go with the push, I think.

[637] We can hug at the end if it all goes well.

[638] So, look, if you're negotiating with your child, seven years old, and he wants to go to bed at 9 .30, and you want him to go to bed at 8 .30, what's wrong with splitting the difference?

[639] why not in that situation split the difference.

[640] Okay.

[641] See, I'm just I don't think it's reasonable to throw out the idea that qualifies sometimes I'm not your name calling.

[642] How dare you?

[643] Well, you call me any names now?

[644] Well, maybe I'm just digging, maybe I'm just digging up the reasons for the marriage clash.

[645] No, sorry.

[646] Anyway.

[647] Do you think there are any circumstances under which the proper way of conceptualizing negotiation is as compromised.

[648] So here's the first problem with compromise.

[649] And I know you're familiar with Danny Kahneman's prospect theory, lost things twice as much as an equivalent game.

[650] The downward spiral we get into compromise, let's say you and I meet in the middle.

[651] Neither one of us are going to felt we met in the middle because I'm a human being and I'm wired so that lost things twice as much as an equivalent gain.

[652] And I believe Professor Connoll actually gave a Nobel Prize winning behavioral economics theory.

[653] I think he said that he thinks it's actually five to seven times as much, and he and Amos Tversky just said twice as much so they got fewer arguments.

[654] So let's say we meet in the middle.

[655] Let's say you give in 10.

[656] Emotionally, you felt you gave 20, and you're not going to feel whole until you hit me for 20.

[657] Now, you've hit me for 20.

[658] I'm not going to feel even until I've hit you for 40.

[659] This is guaranteed downward spiral.

[660] Yeah, because we're human, it's impossible to compromise in a way that we both feel is fair, even if the numbers are exactly the same.

[661] Okay, so then you, it seems to me like you would, you're making the case that a negotiation that ends in compromise actually failed.

[662] Amen.

[663] Okay, well, that's worth thinking about, yeah?

[664] Because that would mean that neither party was able to switch the conceptual framework around so that both walked away enriched.

[665] Exactly.

[666] Both are going to walk away feeling hurt.

[667] It's a recipe for bad, bad, that ain't kind of sustained.

[668] Does that imply, let's say, then in business negotiation, if you can negotiate an arrangement where you both walk away and rich and you have to default to compromise that you should probably walk away.

[669] Yeah, no deal is better than a bad deal.

[670] Well, okay, so my question, I actually agree just from looking at it.

[671] You're not going to call me names like your dad.

[672] No, no, no. I'm a very nice person.

[673] That's not even true.

[674] My dad is a nice person.

[675] I know.

[676] I'm just teasing the both of you.

[677] I was looking forward to talking to you guys, because I knew it was going to be fun.

[678] Yeah, this is fun.

[679] I'm glad that we had from a second ago this happened.

[680] So I found that when I'm trying to negotiate things, I'm angry unless I change my mind or get what I want, which I think is what you were saying.

[681] Interesting thought, yeah.

[682] I've never felt okay with a compromise.

[683] So I kind of get what you're saying from there.

[684] Now, putting a toddler to bed, my go -to is hey you're three and i'm older than you and eight o 'clock is the bed time yeah it's just power it's authority and it doesn't work yeah it's authority so that's my go -to now andre my husband negotiates with a three -year -old and i go you're insane for negotiating with three -year -old but he can talk her into deciding she wants to go to bed at eight which is ideal but when do you use authority or do you just think that's a bad tactic well um using authority um is is bad for you long term um and and in and it because then you if it's with your children you take you're conditioning them that they you can't win without authority now now i would i would ask you to consider in your interactions with your children over bedtime you're trying to get them to go go to better, you're trying to get them to think.

[685] And I would offer the larger views to get them to think.

[686] And then at what age, how do you stimulate that thinking?

[687] Three is a little early, four to five, but you're really teaching your kids to think all along the way.

[688] You're showing them core values.

[689] And if you're getting your way with your kid based on authority, what kind of a core value are you show them.

[690] Now, there are times, children need discipline.

[691] Human beings, human beings need boundaries because it makes them feel secure.

[692] Stability.

[693] You can say that about 50 times, I would say.

[694] Yeah, yeah.

[695] Everybody needs stability, predictability.

[696] You know, predictability turns into trust.

[697] You know, your kids need to know if you're going to set a line and how are you going to set that line?

[698] And then are you going to encourage them to think and become better people?

[699] And we have, a lot of people use numbers, but the difference in their interactions with their kids, and we get funny feedback like, you know, I've cut 15 minutes off bedtime or, you know, 20 minutes off preparation time to go to bed.

[700] And then the interactions with their children are different.

[701] This is human nature stuff.

[702] This is really about human nature.

[703] How about business stories?

[704] let's let's walk through let's walk through like a particularly successful transformation that you've seen on the clients something like that wow yeah um well the first one that springs of mind uh you know because my students at the at the business schools were my clients my customers i was coaching them into better deals one of my students uh is is doing a negotiation to come on with a company and he's a best person for the job he's worth more than what they're offering and the job is worth more than what they're offering.

[705] He said, when I didn't pass, I can't get any more out of it.

[706] I said, write down a list of questions that you would ask where the answer would be yes that would prove your case.

[707] Now flip all those questions on its head and make every one of them a no -oriented question.

[708] And you'd be shocked what you can get away with getting somebody to say no. You know, do you want me to fail?

[709] You want to lose the best person for the job.

[710] Do you want the person that takes this job to fail?

[711] He flipped all his yes questions to no questions.

[712] He came back to me, said the salary offer that they put on the table was so much higher than what they were authorized to do.

[713] They had to go to the CFO to give him permission to do the deal.

[714] Now the job negotiation.

[715] young man is a top analyst in his company making loads of money for his company wants to go back and renegotiate his his compensation package the important thing here too is the other side doesn't feel beaten he goes to his boss and he says you know I'm earning more more for you than anybody else is I deserve a race and his boss says yeah you know those are all true but I don't see how I can give you a raise it's fair to everybody else who's been here longer than you and have put more of their life into this company than you.

[716] So you come back to me in two weeks, if you can come up with a plan that shows how we can do this fairly, I'll give you the race.

[717] Welcome to Season 3, Episode 39 of the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

[718] I'm Michaela Peterson, Jordan's daughter.

[719] This is a very recent interview with Chris Voss.

[720] The video version of the podcast is available on my YouTube channel.

[721] I originally invited Chris Voss onto my podcast, but Dad wanted to join, and obviously I was thrilled with that opportunity.

[722] I love podcasting with Dad.

[723] So if you want the video format, type in Chris Voss, Jordan Peterson on YouTube, and I'm sure the video will pop up.

[724] Chris Voss is an American businessman, author, and the CEO of the Black Swan Group, which teaches people how to negotiate.

[725] He co -authored Never Split the Difference, a book on how to negotiate, and a book on his experience as an FBI negotiator.

[726] This episode is brought to you by SkillShare.

[727] Skillshare is an online learning community, and it's offering our listeners a free trial of their premium membership.

[728] If you find yourself scrolling through socials or on Netflix too much, something like Skillshare is a better use of your time.

[729] There are so many fascinating classes there on topics including illustration, design, photography, animation, or productivity, starting a small business, coding.

[730] I think I'm going to be taking Greg McEwan's course on productivity in the new year.

[731] Skillshare offers classes designed for real life so you can squish your learning experience into your life without putting your life on hold.

[732] Their short classes are a great fit for a busy routine.

[733] You can create real projects, get the support of fellow creatives, so you can accomplish real growth.

[734] Explore your creativity at Skillshare .com slash Peterson, where our listeners get a free trial of premium membership.

[735] That's two weeks free at Skillshare .com slash Peterson.

[736] then.

[737] I also wanted to mention dad's self -authoring program because of the new year.

[738] With code MP, you can get 15 % off.

[739] He wanted me to mention it because of New Year's resolutions.

[740] And his program is absolutely fantastic and no frills approach to goal setting and planning your future.

[741] The code MP works on his self -authoring suite, which gets you to write your past, present, and future and figure out goals and how to accomplish them.

[742] That's self -authoring .com code MP.

[743] for 15 % off.

[744] Great for your New Year's resolution.

[745] Hope you enjoy this episode.

[746] If you do, remember to subscribe.

[747] Very pleased to have with us today, us being Caleb Peterson and Jordan Peterson.

[748] Chris Voss, who's currently CEO of Black Swan Consulting, was formerly the FBI's talk, Kidnap International Kidnapping Negotiator, and is the author of Never Split the Difference.

[749] a book offering to teach its readers the fine art of successful negotiation.

[750] Thanks very much for joining us today, Chris.

[751] I enjoyed your book a lot, and I'm looking forward to your stories.

[752] Yeah, thank you.

[753] It's my pleasure.

[754] It's awesome to be on with you guys.

[755] Much appreciated.

[756] Why do you...

[757] I'm interested in negotiation because I'm a clinical psychologist, and a lot of what clinical psychologists do is negotiate with their clients for behavioral change, but also teach their clients to negotiate successfully with the people around them to get what they want.

[758] So we'll negotiate.

[759] And negotiation is a very underdeveloped skill in most people.

[760] Right.

[761] So I'm wondering how you came to develop an interesting thing.

[762] And we'll go from there.

[763] Well, let me quote the great, I'd say quote the great actor, Rocky Balboa.

[764] I couldn't sing a dance.

[765] I was with the FBI, I was a SWAT guy.

[766] I had to get out of SWAT because of recurring injuries.

[767] But I want to stay in crisis response.

[768] And so, you know, we had hostage negotiators.

[769] I knew they were around.

[770] I didn't know what they do.

[771] It didn't seem that hard, right?

[772] You know, I could talk to terrorists is what I thought.

[773] Got into it, it was fantastic.

[774] It was, you know, I had to sort of fight my way in, not really fight my way.

[775] And I had to work to get in.

[776] I was eminently unqualified.

[777] before I became a negotiator.

[778] But my first step was to volunteer on a suicide hotline.

[779] And, you know, the opportunity to influence people in short periods of time blew me away.

[780] Really counterintuitive methods.

[781] And one thing led to another.

[782] I taught negotiation at Harvard and collaborated on a book with some people and I've been teaching negotiation ever since.

[783] It's just been phenomenal.

[784] It's great to have a positive impact.

[785] I'm sure as you feel, you know, you have the opportunity to have a possibility to have positive impact on people, it's enormously satisfying.

[786] So what made you think that the skills that you had picked up as a negotiator in these crisis situations would be applicable to people in their day -to -day concerns?

[787] Yeah, you know, great question.

[788] I mean, I suspected early on when I was volunteering on the hotline, like, is this just people in crisis or is it just people?

[789] And I started using the skills in my day -to -day life, you know, and it impacted all my relationships and made me a better hostage negotiator.

[790] And when I first started collaborating with Harvard and they invited me to come and attend the law school's negotiation course, instructors up there were teaching and were saying, like, look, man, you're doing the same thing we're doing.

[791] The stakes are different, but the dynamics are absolutely the same.

[792] And that was, you know, what was sort of their blessing and their understanding ended up teaching there later.

[793] But the dynamics are same.

[794] It's human behavior, regardless of what the circumstances are, were wired in certain ways.

[795] And as human beings, we all have the same wiring, as you know.

[796] So I'm going to get into some of your, what would you call tactical strategies, I guess.

[797] And speaking of the clinical connection, when I was reading your book, the first thing that came to mind is that the technology, Meeks in general sounded very much like those that were put forth by Carl Rogers to ensure successful clinical transformation.

[798] And lo and behold, about halfway through the book, you make direct reference to Carl Rogers.

[799] And he was a great, well, he was really the formalizer, I think, of the idea of the active listening and reflection, particularly the idea that you should put yourself in the shoes of the other person, but also to ensure that you're hearing them property, you should repeat what they said back to them in paraphrased manner and see if you actually got the gist of their conversation.

[800] So to some degree, you concentrate on that, I guess, in the section, well, it's not so much labeling.

[801] Statement mirroring, I guess, is your term, with a pause.

[802] Well, you know, there's a couple.

[803] I mean, we've really sort of really defined all the different skills in real specific detail.

[804] And that, you know, I was one of the things that the Harvard guy said to me because we're on the same path, but FBI, we're a little bit further down it.

[805] And they said, you know, we're both talking about the same skills.

[806] You've defined them with much more clarity because principally in law enforcement, you know, cops, FBI agents, you know, we want specifics of how to do something and then we'll take it and we'll road test it.

[807] So mirroring versus labeling, we would call two different things and even the different types of labels.

[808] And, you know, we take what we learn with the world learned.

[809] We, collective, main kind of psychology, and we added in neuroscience.

[810] We started trying to hit very specific parts of the brain to create very specific reactions.

[811] So, yeah, mirroring.

[812] I would define mirroring is repeating the last one to three words of what someone just said or selected one to three words versus labeling.

[813] I'm looking for emotional nuances, dynamics.

[814] Well, one of the things that struck me with labeling is that, you know, people might respond positively to that.

[815] We should, I'll let you define it momentarily, but people should respond positively to that because it's often the case that when people are in a discussion or negotiating that they don't actually know what they're bringing to the table or what they want.

[816] And so if they're floundering about in a somewhat emotion written and stress, manner.

[817] And you put your finger on what it is that they're trying to say, then you're actually articulating something for them that's still only being processed at the level of bodily response.

[818] And people find out a great relief if you can do it accurately, because you've summed up a very complicated set of physiological disturbances with a single utterance and kind of enable them to see the pathway forward.

[819] Yeah, no, absolutely.

[820] And you can even, It doesn't even have to be that accurate, you know, which is the thing that neuroscientists taught us, you know, oxytocin dopamine, depending upon what neurochemical is being hit.

[821] I mean, when you're inaccurate and they correct you, they actually get a hit of dopamine, which they love.

[822] I mean, people hate being corrected, but they love to correct.

[823] It's a great way to create a bond that the other person doesn't even know is being built.

[824] Well, and if you're incorrect and you're labeling at least the person then has something they can object to that's going to, You talk about that a bit, right?

[825] The importance of getting somebody to say no. That was interesting.

[826] Like, is it possible to describe that a little bit?

[827] Yeah, no is one of the craziest words.

[828] And we, you know, hearing it, we're taught when we're little.

[829] You know, what's the first word every child learns?

[830] No. Yeah, they love that word.

[831] Yeah.

[832] They get hammered with it over and over again.

[833] So we're conditioned that when we hear, we've done something wrong.

[834] But at the same time, we're conditioned when we're conditioned when we're said, we protected ourselves.

[835] So if I get you to say no, you feel protected, you're going to want to talk.

[836] You're going to feel good about the interaction.

[837] You're not going to feel threatened.

[838] You're more likely to open up.

[839] I mean, even something as little is nobody in my company says to anybody, have you got a few minutes to talk?

[840] It's always is now a bad time to talk.

[841] Complete change in the other side's reaction.

[842] right and so you say instead uh is this a bad time to talk right yeah right or even like i won't say is this a good idea i'll say is this a dumb idea and you'll probably go like no it's not a dumb idea but here are the following problems here's what we got to do i mean it's a complete change in reaction yeah well you know if you watch two -year -olds with no because they they really latch on to that word it's really remarkable and the reason for that is that it in nature enables them to protect themselves against being hijacked by other people, right?

[843] It's actually the word that defines the boundary between them and the world and enables them to have some mortality.

[844] It's amazing.

[845] I remember I babysat a little kid at one point, or maybe it was my own son.

[846] It might have been Julian.

[847] No, I think it was a kid I was babysit.

[848] He was unbelievably stubborn little kid.

[849] And I was trying to get him to do something just to interact with me. and I offered him a bunch of different enticements.

[850] You as a psychologist is having trouble getting a two -year -old to cooperate?

[851] Well, this was a particularly, this was a particularly stubborn little two -year -old, but he took no. Are there a bloodline connection?

[852] Is that why it was so?

[853] No, no, no. This was truly, this was truly the neighbor's child, actually.

[854] But he was willing to say no, the M &Ms and ice cream, which was, he caught himself when he noticed that he had said it.

[855] But the no was such an attractive proposition to him that he was willing to forego even basic immediate rewards just for the thrill of being able to maintain that autonomy.

[856] Yeah.

[857] So we should go through your technique, let's say, your techniques with some order.

[858] So I'm going to read a couple.

[859] And maybe you could just describe what you mean by them.

[860] So you have tactical empathy, for example.

[861] Yeah, sure.

[862] I mean, we're trying to take, first of all, the point of calling it that was taking it out of today's common usage of empathy is sympathy or even compassion.

[863] Now, I would argue that I would offer that empathy is a very compassionate thing to do.

[864] But going back to the real reason I first started collaborating with Harvard, you know, they said empathy is not agreement.

[865] It's not sympathy.

[866] It's not even liking the other side.

[867] It's just completely understanding.

[868] the basis on from Rogers in psychology, the stuff that anybody that's pursued this is study.

[869] Now, let's add in neuroscience, tactically, tactically, we know that the amygdala is kind of the crossroads of all our thoughts, and it's wired to be negative, 75 % negative.

[870] And tactically, we know that simply identifying a negative diminishes it, not denying it, identifying it, identifying it.

[871] You think I'm a jerk?

[872] and I don't think you're that much of a jerk by saying that you've diminished it in the other side so let's just put a tactical application to our empathy knowing that the negative emotions have four times the impact or at least on people's thinking so let's approach and come in through a different door and it's tactical because while this is something that needs to be clarified too is that when you're negotiating what is it in striving to attain Do you think it's, and if it's a win, you know, people conceptualize that the success of a negotiation in different ways.

[873] It could be you win, which means you get what you want.

[874] It could be win -win, in which case both people get what they want.

[875] You can go beyond that because you could say that in a really successful negotiation, people even discover new things they didn't know they wanted and they get those two.

[876] So, you know, tactical towards what end?

[877] If you had a philosophy of negotiation, what might that be?

[878] You know, the philosophy is great collaboration, which requires long -term relationships.

[879] And ideally, every deal kicks stuff out that you didn't expect that delighted you, which is going to addict you to want to continue to deal with me. Great long -term relationship.

[880] If every deal were in, you're delighted, you can't wait to do another one.

[881] Right.

[882] So that's absolutely crucial because it puts it within a real moral framework, right?

[883] Because otherwise you could learn to negotiate for psychopathic reasons, which would be only short -term interests of yourself.

[884] But if you put it in a framework where you're trying to set yourself up to play repeatedly with the same person or like a whole variety of different people, then an ethic automatically enters into it.

[885] Right.

[886] Your reputation precede you.

[887] I mean, you get reputation for doing nothing but good for people.

[888] people line up to do business with you.

[889] Right, exactly.

[890] And reputation is actually the marker for your utility as a long -term partner.

[891] Yeah.

[892] How did that work with specifically FBI negotiations?

[893] I mean, if you're dealing with somebody like a hostage taker, how does that end up being a win for them?

[894] Yeah, well, first of all, the crazy thing is hostage negotiators have reputational concerns.

[895] You know, we have repeat customers.

[896] and even if the guy that we're dealing with, even if he goes to jail and never comes out, how we handle them is going to get into the media.

[897] So reputation is an immediate concern.

[898] And, you know, people are so driven by where it's taking them in a long run.

[899] I mean, if somebody has a vision of the future, no matter how far down the line that vision is, that's a good thing.

[900] Now we get something to talk about.

[901] And, you know, my first response with a bank robber is really going to be, sounds like you want to survive.

[902] Of course they do.

[903] Otherwise, they'd have come out and gotten shot already.

[904] Now we'll get something to talk about.

[905] How do you deal with the people who don't want to survive?

[906] You can pick that up pretty quickly.

[907] You know, you're going to know right off the back.

[908] If you're there to hear it.

[909] And the analogy, in the business world, not everybody.

[910] wants to do the deal with you.

[911] Maybe they want to exploit you.

[912] Maybe they want to take advantage of you.

[913] Maybe they see it as a one -off.

[914] Maybe they're playing you for a fool.

[915] You've got to pick that up in your everyday negotiations as well.

[916] And you'll hear it if you're open to hearing it.

[917] It's avoiding preconceived notions is what really shuts you down.

[918] Being too focused on a goal gives you a tunnel vision.

[919] Well, I really like the, um, repeated game analogy that one of the things I've lectured about is that you tell your children it isn't important whether they win or lose, it's important how they play the game.

[920] But you do, yeah.

[921] But you don't necessarily understand what that means, why you're telling your child that and they might say, well, it's obviously important that I win so I don't know what you're telling me. But the goal of proper play is to be invited to play as many games as possible not to win that particular game, even though you also want to win that game.

[922] So you lay out this ethic, which is to make yourself the best collaborator, the most desirable possible collaborator across the longest term with the largest number of people.

[923] And then you can put these techniques to use, which out without them being cold, harsh, techniques of manipulation.

[924] Yeah.

[925] I was going to say the big difference between manipulation and influence is really where you take.

[926] I mean, manipulation is when I'm trying to hurt you.

[927] Influence is when I'm trying to help you.

[928] Same set of skills, but where are you coming from, where you're trying to go.

[929] Right.

[930] And with most business relationships, people get cynical about this, but most business relationships are, in fact, relationships.

[931] You know, I was really struck by this.

[932] It's even more so in the business world than it is in the academic world.

[933] Because in the academic world, you put forward a claim, and at least in the more scientifically oriented field, the validity of your claim is dependent on the degree to which you follow proper scientific procedure.

[934] So there's an objective way of assessing your ability.

[935] But in business, it's a lot softer than that in some manner, because the measurement techniques for assessing the other person's ability aren't so clearly there.

[936] And so relationship becomes crucial.

[937] And it's very interesting to me to understand negotiation as the skill that makes capitalism intensely human because it brings it under the necessity of it shows how tightly associated successful business development is with playing the game with other people property.

[938] And that helps you avoid cynicism about the entire process, I would say.

[939] Yeah, no, I agree completely.

[940] I mean, our co -author, I mean, a book is written between myself, my son, Brandon, and Atal Ross.

[941] Atal is a brilliant dude.

[942] I mean, I would read anything, any business book that he's written, I don't know that I'd read any of his poetry, but I'd read his business books.

[943] And one of the things that he pointed out to us is, by definition as a species, the only ones of us that survived are the ones that collaborated.

[944] We're hard -wired to collaborate.

[945] So if you increase your collaboration skills, more people are going to want to do business with you.

[946] And to your point, it's not always that measurable in an immediate number.

[947] It may be a secondary or tertiary benefit, but you become wealthy by being a great collaborator.

[948] Is there any difference between negotiating with women versus men with women?

[949] Wow, that's a loaded question.

[950] That's for sure.

[951] I didn't mean that.

[952] We're going to get into differences between men and women.

[953] I would love to do that because women pick this style of negotiation up faster than the men do.

[954] Now, at the top end, and we've got some fairly, you know, qualitative data to back that up.

[955] Women are, it's hard, there's so much nurture going on.

[956] It's hard to separate nature from nurture.

[957] Women are nurtured more to pick up on emotion sooner.

[958] They're nurtured more to pick up on soft power sooner and have an appreciation for emotional dynamics and how to use soft power.

[959] And so that's why I think that women have a tendency to be better at this.

[960] I mean, some of the people that are great negotiators that are the biggest fans of are women.

[961] Did you say, you said soft power?

[962] Yeah, well, little boys and little girls.

[963] Little boys are taught to fight, little girls, the women that bring them up know that inevitably they're not going to be the more physically powerful.

[964] So they are nurtured early on to figure out how to get things without physically fighting them.

[965] How do you keep your emotions under check when you're negotiating?

[966] That is the challenge.

[967] And depending upon, you know, there's a couple different hacks.

[968] And they all take practice, just like any of the soft skill.

[969] If you're genuinely curious, it's not possible to get upset.

[970] If you can stay in a genuinely curious frame of mind.

[971] You're one of the people I'm also a big fan of Stephen Kotler.

[972] He talks about the psychology of flow, highly positive state of mind.

[973] Curiosity is positive.

[974] You're smarter.

[975] Your brain is quicker.

[976] and when you're genuinely curious, you can't get angry.

[977] Interesting cat I run across recently, Daryl Davis.

[978] Darrell Davis, black musician who talks Clu Klux Klan members into quitting a clan.

[979] And I had a conversation with them about it, and people say, well, how do you not get upset with these people?

[980] You know, you're a black dude.

[981] They openly say that they want to murder you.

[982] He says, well, I grew up internationally.

[983] I just look at it as a different culture, and I'm just completely curious about where they're coming from and what are they thinking about.

[984] It leaves him in a state of mind where he can deal with people that are against him personally, but he's just curious about it.

[985] That's interesting.

[986] One of the most useful general psychological techniques in relationship to life and its challenge is voluntary exploration, and it's a particular physiological mode of being.

[987] It's a very old brain center known as the hypothalamus, which controls basic drives like hunger and thirst and temperature regulation and defensive aggression.

[988] And part of it also controls exploration.

[989] And so if you switch into a mode of voluntary exploration, that's a mode of being that's deeply hardwired and that envelops your entire being.

[990] But it allows you to pick up information, right?

[991] And we are information scabbable to human beings.

[992] And so, and that's because you can trade information for valuable things like food, you know.

[993] So if you, if you're in this, I was struck in your book by your emphasis on unknown unknowns.

[994] Black swans you've called them at the end.

[995] You said, like if you're listening very carefully to people, you can pick up these unknown unknowns.

[996] And that is a consequence of voluntary exploration.

[997] And having, it's useful to pick up on those, not only for the conversation that you're having presently, but because of what the consequences for that conversation might be for conversations down the road.

[998] And so the man that you just described, he opens himself up, he says, well, these people are from a completely different culture than me. Maybe there's some valuable things I can learn from them, regardless of our differences in opinion.

[999] and those things are of such value that they might be portable.

[1000] And it is unbelievably useful to approach the world in that manner, because then everyone you encounter is a gold -minded information, especially if they don't agree with you.

[1001] Because they're full of assumptions you don't have.

[1002] And you can find out something new as a consequence.

[1003] That's way better than just having your own opinions bolstered, which is reassuring, but it doesn't offer you you think.

[1004] Yeah, all those things are completely true.

[1005] I mean, and by definition, the unknown unknowns is really where the hidden stuff overlaps.

[1006] In any given interaction, the other side is hiding stuff, I'm hiding stuff.

[1007] How do we know what happens when the hiddens overlap?

[1008] That's why the deal can always be made better.

[1009] I like that, about where the putting it's over that's cool now that's cool yeah that is cool uh i think for another practical question uh practical you guys didn't tell me this was going to be a practical interview i thought we were just going to have some fun dad dad has fun i just asked practical questions repeatedly in my podcast so i'm glad we've got the combinations but uh if you're trying to like I think the one negotiation that would benefit everyone is how to go to whoever they're working for and try and get more money to look for a raise.

[1010] And I know, especially if you're more agreeable, a lot of people are worried about that and have no idea where to start.

[1011] So do you have tips for negotiating a raise?

[1012] Yeah, sure.

[1013] Get off the, you know, raise is the price term in any negotiation.

[1014] You know, your salary pays your bills, but it doesn't build your career.

[1015] you know price takes care of the immediate problems what are your long -term problems your long -term problems are how do you build a career job negotiations should be about building your career making yourself more valuable to the team and one of two things is going to happen your salary is going to get drug along as a result or if it's not you're more valuable and you shop yourself to the highest better how do you become more valuable you know um he is a phrase for every job negotiation, for every annual review.

[1016] How can I be guaranteed to be involved in the strategic projects that are critical to the company's future?

[1017] Instantaneous change in the way your employer views you.

[1018] Because when you go in and ask for a raise, empathy is about how does the other side see you?

[1019] the other side sees you is selfish.

[1020] And most employers, most bosses, whenever the employee comes walking in the door, they're after something for themselves.

[1021] You condition your boss that you're selfish.

[1022] You may not like that reality, but it's unfortunately the reality.

[1023] When you change their conversation to how can I help us all prosper, now suddenly your boss, your employer goes like, oh, now here's somebody I want to have around.

[1024] somebody's going to make my life better.

[1025] Conversation is instantly transformed.

[1026] Now, either you'll get more money, you'll have greater experiences because also you don't want to be involved in a mundane at work.

[1027] You want to, if you're courageous, you want the big ticket item, you want to have an impact.

[1028] And then, even if they don't give you a raise, the experience of being involved makes you five times more marketable than you were before the year started.

[1029] Yeah, so your advice basically is that you adopt a much broader mindset, which is something like, how can I be optimally successful in this company?

[1030] And what optimal success is going to require is being a key player in the most important things that the company does.

[1031] That's also going to be allied with the willingness to take on additional responsibility, not to see that as a Navy.

[1032] it's a part of people often avoid responsibility but it's if you can take it on voluntarily it's there's no difference between responsibility and opportunity if the company is operating profit yeah what what is that responsibility too you now the highest levels of your company now have an investment in making sure you succeed so you just gone from being maybe somebody struggling by themselves your responsibility are critical to everybody's future and everybody has a stake in you doing well because that's what you've taken on.

[1033] I mean, it's a virtuous cycle, if you will.

[1034] Yes.

[1035] It also makes you difficult to replace and therefore much more effective than your salary negotiations.

[1036] Amen, absolutely.

[1037] You had some really nice, very practical tips for people negotiating their initial salary.

[1038] I thought two of these were really smart.

[1039] One was if you're being interviewed for a new position and you're asked to define your starting salary to offer a range to say something like, well, people in this position are often offered $125 ,000 to $175 ,000 a year as a starting salary.

[1040] and to strategically do that so that your desired salary is in the bottom end of that range.

[1041] Are you going to fall for that?

[1042] Well, it's a good question, yes, yes, is that short answer according to the book.

[1043] But it's interesting that you would phrase it as all for that, because that is the danger of techniques is that they can become manipulative, you know?

[1044] So that's why I wanted to talk about the broader ethic.

[1045] And you also mentioned that it's smart for someone who's negotiating for their first position to also negotiate metrics for their first grades, which is even more important, right?

[1046] It's like you can negotiate for how your salary is going to increase in the future rather than what it's going to be right at the beginning.

[1047] But I like Michaela's question.

[1048] Would you regard that offering as a range, offering of a range, as manipulative?

[1049] Now, I'm not manipulative.

[1050] I mean, I'm a nice guy.

[1051] What are you guys talking about?

[1052] What I regard that is manipulated.

[1053] You know, all right, so, and from some of the talks that I've heard you give, Jordan, and some other stuff, you know, there's always additional nuances and factors to consider, and you want to stay off of one thing.

[1054] Like, first of all, just because what you're worth and what they can pay, you might not line up.

[1055] and the experience for being there may be more valuable than the dollars.

[1056] I got to tell you right now, I go work for minimum wage to be Warren Buffett's assistant for a year.

[1057] I would get him coffee.

[1058] I would do anything.

[1059] And I might do it for free because that will be a position where I would learn so much.

[1060] It's as much not handcuffing the other side in making you somebody they can't get based on the number.

[1061] You're looking for a great marriage.

[1062] So the range is to feel them out, understand also when you give a range and the other side's numbers within that range, they're going to take the end that most favors them.

[1063] So if you're going to give a range, you better be willing to accept the bottom number.

[1064] They're not going to head in the middle.

[1065] Right, right.

[1066] What are the practical aspects of ranges?

[1067] The question I had in relationship to that was exactly the manipulative angle.

[1068] I mean, I guess maybe you could answer it.

[1069] I would be happy with something in the range of 110 ,000 to 150 ,000.

[1070] And because if you have to point out that other companies are making offers in this range, you have to know for sure that other companies were.

[1071] I mean, there's no sense adding a falsehood to your negotiation for the purpose of picking up an advantage.

[1072] That seems to me to be a very bad strategy.

[1073] Falsehoods are a bad idea.

[1074] I'm against any sort of deception by commission or omission.

[1075] So, yeah, especially on that point.

[1076] No, I wouldn't say something out.

[1077] I didn't know.

[1078] This accusation audit, we should maybe talk about that a little bit.

[1079] That was something I found.

[1080] Now, you derived that from your analysis of courtroom behavior of lawyers, if I remember correctly.

[1081] Well, it added to it.

[1082] I mean, you know, seeing it work in different areas.

[1083] It definitely added to our thinking.

[1084] What is it, exactly?

[1085] If you don't mind.

[1086] Yeah, well, you know, it's, first of all, it's, you know, the lawyers would call it getting out the uglies in advance.

[1087] You know, if you got to, if you got a witness that there's some ugly things about, you bring it up first.

[1088] Let the jury reconcile themselves to it before they listen to anything else.

[1089] I work with some great prosecutors when I was with the FBI Southern District in New York.

[1090] Now, in business, it's understanding what the negatives are in advance, what's crazy is when we begin to proactively get out in front of them.

[1091] Like, if I get, if I get, let's say you got no negative about me at all.

[1092] But I'm getting ready to say something that you're not going to like.

[1093] I'll say, look, you're going to think I'm a real jerk for bringing this up.

[1094] And then when I bring it up, it'll have far less impact.

[1095] You'll never know what I headed you off from.

[1096] And that's why we get really aggressive with going after the negatives early on and calling them up.

[1097] Yeah, so the accusation audit allows you to lay out on the table all the weaknesses of your position and your character for that matter.

[1098] And so there's a variety of reasons that that might be useful.

[1099] One is that by indicating your willingness to admit to these faults, you show that the faults are small enough so that someone could admit to having them.

[1100] That's the first thing.

[1101] And the second thing is you show yourself as someone who's larger than their fault because they're willing to admit to them, right?

[1102] So you minimize the fault in some sense, even though you're presenting them accuracy, accurately.

[1103] You minimize their emotional impact or you decrease their emotional impact and you increase the integrity of your own character at the same time.

[1104] And again, these are things that should be done honestly, not as a matter of technique.

[1105] If you do an accusation audit, it should be a genuine life.

[1106] And you should be doing it in part so that you, this is my understanding anyway, so that you are also as aware as you get, as aware as you need to be of the shortcomings you have in the negotiation.

[1107] Yeah.

[1108] I used to do that to you like a teenager.

[1109] I don't know if you remember.

[1110] I don't know if this was a technique or just an evil thing to do, but I can remember coming home and saying, like, some sort of terrible thing I had, this isn't exactly the same.

[1111] Sometimes started a terrible thing I done.

[1112] I was out drinking as we're doing this.

[1113] This happened.

[1114] Just kidding.

[1115] But this actually did happen.

[1116] And it would be, the second thing would be smaller.

[1117] And I found that that really worked on not getting in as bad trouble.

[1118] You're like, thank God that didn't happen.

[1119] That's not an accusation audit.

[1120] That's a, that's an anchoring technique.

[1121] Correct?

[1122] Well, you know, depending upon how you deployed it, there's a combination of both there.

[1123] Yeah.

[1124] So we could talk about the anchoring technique as well.

[1125] We could.

[1126] I mean, it's you guys a show.

[1127] We'll talk about whatever you guys make me talk.

[1128] You got me a hostage here.

[1129] I'm your hostage.

[1130] It sounds like you feel like you're a hostage.

[1131] I'll take it all day long.

[1132] So what is the anchoring technique?

[1133] Did you describe that?

[1134] Well, yeah, I mean, the anchoring technique, and we're very, you know, you can anchor on a number, and we don't anchor on numbers.

[1135] But I will tell you, we anchor emotionally.

[1136] If somebody wants to know what I charge for consulting, I'm going to say, hi, more than you have, more than you ever pay.

[1137] And we're not moving forward in this conversation until you asked me to give you the number.

[1138] Now, in that period of time that we waited, you're going to think of some crazy number.

[1139] And when I give you my number, you're going to say like, ah, well, that isn't that bad.

[1140] what comes with that and we now made the number something that is irrelevant what's relevant really in all business negotiations is delivery and we over deliver so the anchoring that was a very subtle use of anchoring or description of anchoring there the anchoring technique occurs imagine that you're always interpreting what's going on in a context of some sort and so how big something is is depends on the context.

[1141] And so maybe you think a house, say, it's worth $135 ,000.

[1142] And you find out the person wants $2 .5 million for it.

[1143] Well, then if they come down to $500 ,000, you're going to think that's pretty reasonable because they anchored you at $2 million, even though you thought to begin with it was only $135 ,000.

[1144] So...

[1145] That is what I did.

[1146] Mm -hmm.

[1147] Nice.

[1148] Yeah, it's very treacherous.

[1149] sneaky of you.

[1150] Yeah.

[1151] You still do that?

[1152] I don't think so.

[1153] I don't think so, but I'm not as debauchist as I once in.

[1154] Well, we've got to raise a level of your skills.

[1155] We've got to get you guys more money.

[1156] We'll go offline and give you some coaching.

[1157] Next time you'll be you'll be in one of five houses that you wanted to be in.

[1158] You'll have studios all over the planet.

[1159] You're being in Fiji.

[1160] You've been in Australia.

[1161] I need help with getting along for negotiating.

[1162] I get way too angry.

[1163] And my husband, he's amazing at it.

[1164] Like, he said, like, I read your book.

[1165] Lily's a good negotiator.

[1166] He's married to you.

[1167] Well, that's what he said, too.

[1168] I was like, I don't get along with you very well.

[1169] And it's like, yeah, but look where we are.

[1170] Yes, he did win that round.

[1171] Okay, another hint you have, neutralize the negative and reinforce the positive.

[1172] What do you mean by that?

[1173] Yeah, well, simply calling out the negatives has a neutralizing effect on them to some degree every time, every single time.

[1174] Now, how much the effect is varies.

[1175] But again, if we go back to the neuroscience stuff and the amygdala is 75 % negative, you neutralize the negative, you get an opportunity for the positive to pick up some ground.

[1176] If I say, it seems like you want to make a deal.

[1177] If you genuinely do, then that will reinforce that feeling.

[1178] Seems like you want a long -term relationship.

[1179] Seems like terms are important to you.

[1180] That will reinforce those positive aspects.

[1181] If I say, it seems like you hate uncertainty.

[1182] The anxiety that you were feeling in the moment will diminish.

[1183] How much it diminishes, I may need to neutralize it several times to get it out of the way.

[1184] But again, our neuroscience wiring has laid out a lot of what people like you have instinctively come to know from your practice and your interaction with people where you guys were fine in your way before we could map what was going on inside the brain.

[1185] Are you married, Chris?

[1186] There is an ex -Mrs.

[1187] Voss, and I'm looking for the future ex -Mrs.

[1188] Voss.

[1189] Did your marriage fail as a consequence of poor negotiation?

[1190] Now, you know, what it really failed is the consequence of what all relationships fail at.

[1191] It's no good or no bad, but a misalignment and core values.

[1192] And there were things that were important to me that weren't important to her and vice versa.

[1193] Business relationships, personal relationships.

[1194] At the end of the day, it's no good or no bad on either side.

[1195] It's just enough of a difference in core values that you're entitled to go your way and I'm entitled to go mine and nobody's wrong.

[1196] right so every consignable differences it's the terminology for yeah right well you used to be that used to be acceptable grounds for divorce yeah yeah I mean you're not wrong I'm not wrong we just don't match up how have the skills that you learn as a tactical hostage negotiator affected your your more intimate relationships you know it's helped me to be more tentative you know it's an ongoing process i'm still learning i'm still making mistakes i hope to be learning and making mistakes for at least i like say i'm a third of the way through my life maybe another hundred years but you know the idea of dialing into somebody and having a better long -term relationship and even thinking about that and getting better on it is very important to me so yeah i still make mistakes but you know i don't i don't want anybody to regret having had a relationship with me. Although some do.

[1197] I think that happens to everybody.

[1198] How do you negotiate with someone who say in a hostage situation who doesn't want to talk to or isn't communicating?

[1199] Are there things you can do to get from stopping so tight -left?

[1200] Yeah, well, take a step back.

[1201] If somebody's being tight -lipped, one or two things are happening.

[1202] First and foremost is probably they don't feel like talking to you is doing them any good because you're not listening.

[1203] People get tight -lipped because communication isn't doing them any good.

[1204] Now, they could be trapped in a corner and they could be helpless or you could be not listening.

[1205] There are three possibilities.

[1206] Another reason for being tight -lipped, tight -lipped people trust incredibly and they're a little bit afraid of how vulnerable they are because when they trust, they go all in.

[1207] and they've been hurt.

[1208] They've been badly hurt.

[1209] So they're cautious because you resemble somebody that hurt them in the past.

[1210] So if you think about what the possibilities are, first of all, you know, just adapt and begin, look, I haven't clearly, I haven't won your trust yet.

[1211] Well, if it's not about trust, but they're helpless, they're going to correct.

[1212] They're going to say, no, no, it's not about trust.

[1213] It's because there's nothing I could do.

[1214] I'm trapped.

[1215] There's nowhere I could go.

[1216] But at that moment, the time you're in here now you're in dialogue understanding what really is dialogue even denial is dialogue somebody opens somebody who gives you more than a one -word response who is previously type -lipped now they're testing to see if you're going to listen if you're going to understand or if you're going to contradict or argue people have tight -lipped with other people who are argument do you have any or could you tell us one of your i don't know if you're allowed to talk about but can you tell us a bit of process and the new tuition story?

[1217] Is that allowed?

[1218] Yeah, of course it's allowed.

[1219] There I was.

[1220] Terrorist to the left of me. Yeah, exactly.

[1221] One of those.

[1222] You know, there were two straight cases in the Philippines, and we talk about both of them in the book.

[1223] One, the bad guy on the other side was sociopathic, rape and murdering, killing straight out of the movies terrorist.

[1224] The type of person that empathy is not supposed to work on.

[1225] Now, when do you know when the other side feels understood, when the other side says that's right?

[1226] At a critical moment in that negotiation, what I really was was an international negotiation coach.

[1227] I'm coaching people in countries who are coachable.

[1228] And I'm coaching a guy named Benji, and he's eminently coachable.

[1229] We summarize the bad guy's point of view.

[1230] You guys have been impressed for 500 years.

[1231] Americans are horrible.

[1232] Philippine government is horrible.

[1233] You know, everything, everything he said, 500 years worth of emotional baggage.

[1234] Bad guy literally says that's right.

[1235] In that instance, a $10 million ransom demand evaporated, disappeared, went off the table.

[1236] A couple of months later, we're continuing in the negotiation.

[1237] No more monetary demands for the hostage.

[1238] None.

[1239] Non -monetary demands.

[1240] continued application of what we now refer to as tactical empathy.

[1241] Hostage walks away on Mondi Thursday, the Thursday before Easter, walked away.

[1242] And back in the Philippines, three weeks later, connected back up with Benji.

[1243] We're working another case.

[1244] He says, you're not going to believe we call me on the phone.

[1245] The terrorist called him on the phone to tell him that he respected him.

[1246] That's powerful stuff because we were.

[1247] were engaged with the same group again, and the guy, the terrorists, the sociopathic called to express his respect for how he was treated, had lost everything in the negotiation.

[1248] They wanted $10 million.

[1249] They got zero.

[1250] So this stuff works.

[1251] It works on everybody.

[1252] It always leaves you better off.

[1253] Does that mean that this terrorist wasn't actually interested in the 10 million.

[1254] He was actually interested in being understood.

[1255] What would you take away from that?

[1256] You know, around their way through, you know, what the other side is always interested in is the best they could do.

[1257] One of the things that I learned about in really kidnapping negotiations globally, kidnapping is a commodities as exchange.

[1258] They're businessmen on the other side.

[1259] And what they're really interested in is the best that they could do.

[1260] And the best you could do is often defined by how you feel during the process of the outcome.

[1261] So they wanted $10 million or the best that they could possibly do.

[1262] What does $10 million buy you?

[1263] In this instance, $10 million buys you influence.

[1264] They started asking for other things that bought them influence.

[1265] Let's get certain intermediaries involved, certain politicians.

[1266] We want access to people.

[1267] If we have more money, what do we spend that money on?

[1268] Ultimately, guns.

[1269] What do guns get you?

[1270] Guns get you influence.

[1271] Ultimately, people want some.

[1272] soft power.

[1273] So when they started looking for something else after having their anger being deactivated, they also sort of lost control of their operation, which created the circumstances of our hostage walking away.

[1274] Good things, it sounds ridiculous.

[1275] Good things fall out of the sky if you let them happen.

[1276] And that's one of the reasons to engage in this approach to negotiation because something good is going to happen if you if you if you give it the opportunity tell me what your company does exactly you mean you were hired by a by a business yeah well we coach you know we coached we get hired by businesses all the time but we really coach high performers to better lives you coach the high performers specifically well yeah i mean the people that are drawn to us are the high performers and and our marketing is we're pointed much more at individuals and companies.

[1277] Again, we coach companies, but companies by and large are relatively dysfunctional.

[1278] Daniel Coyle in the culture code, I think you pointed out to stat that only 6 % of corporate executives could actually recite their corporate values.

[1279] Well, 40 % of managers have negative net value to the company.

[1280] Yeah, there you go, right?

[1281] Yeah.

[1282] So, you know, these are people that are struggling with themselves, let alone new training.

[1283] But we coach people into, that are making better lives for themselves and their families that are top performers.

[1284] I mean, typically people that we coach in negotiations are cutting two or three life -changing deals a year as opposed to one every five or six years.

[1285] Everybody that we coach, that we were coaching last year are wealthier right now than they were a year ago.

[1286] How do they find you?

[1287] Well, Black Swan LTD is the website, B -L -I -C -S -W -A -N -L -T -D .com.

[1288] You know, the first step is a book, which, you know, you're kind enough to look through and appreciate and recognize how much that, you know, we're in sync with on our thinking.

[1289] And then come to the website.

[1290] We got free stuff downloaded.

[1291] Subscribe to our newsletter.

[1292] It's free.

[1293] Give us a chance to put your family in a bigger house, send your kids to a better school.

[1294] Your book is titled Never Split the Difference.

[1295] So I always thought negotiation meant somebody has a point to view here and somebody has a point to come here and you want to find middle ground.

[1296] What exactly do you mean by Never Split the Difference?

[1297] You know, it's a two -way street.

[1298] But splitting the difference, first of all, is a fool's error and for a number of reasons.

[1299] Compromise.

[1300] You know, do you compromise your principles?

[1301] You know, there was a cartoon about marital, a married couple a long time ago.

[1302] A husband and a wife are talking to each other, and the husband says, let's compromise.

[1303] That way we'll both be unhappy.

[1304] You know, compromise is a way to guarantee that you're both unhappy.

[1305] Now, there's some people that say, well, a great negotiation is where both sides are the little, unhappy.

[1306] Is a great marriage where both sides are unhappy?

[1307] That's a definition of long -term unhappiness.

[1308] So besides knowing what you want, don't compromise and meet in the middle.

[1309] You're both going to be unhappy.

[1310] Now what the other side wants may be even better than what you had in mind.

[1311] A colleague, a friend, a mentor, somebody we do business with a guy named Dan Sullivan, recently wrote a book called Who Not How?

[1312] He coaches the greatest entrepreneurs in the world.

[1313] He heard me give a talk, and he decided how he was going to take a position with his partners on his book deal.

[1314] The book that he just put out, the people that he collaborated with, he gave them every dime.

[1315] Because I said sometimes what the other side wants, give them what they want.

[1316] The guys that he collaborated with on that book, giving them every dime from the book.

[1317] book because the amount of business is going to develop for his company, which is going to be huge.

[1318] They are killing themselves for him.

[1319] I was on a conference call with them, Ben Hardy and Tucker Max.

[1320] Tucker Max is a famous author in his own right.

[1321] Tucker says, Dan got every drop of our blood on this book.

[1322] Dan gave them every dime from the book because he knew how much it was going to bring him long term.

[1323] So never split the difference also.

[1324] or the other side, give them their position, and they will kill themselves through you.

[1325] Yeah, so it's interesting, because compromise is a reasonable way of construing negotiation, I think, if you're deadlocked and you have to make a decision, and there's also time pressure.

[1326] So then it seems to be under those circumstances, that would be a reasonable heuristic to say, well, we'll split the difference, you will both be unhappy.

[1327] Oh, how dare you?

[1328] How dare you?

[1329] No. No, no, no. Let me develop that out for a moment because there is something about negotiation that is, that is, and it's strictly associated with compromise.

[1330] I don't think that's the best way of conceptualizing negotiation as such.

[1331] See, because people are going to listen to this podcast and they're going to think, no, no, no, no. Sometimes you have to split the difference.

[1332] No. So my, okay.

[1333] I want to push you on that because.

[1334] Push me. Don't push me, hug me. Give me a hug.

[1335] No, no, I'm going to go with the push, I think.

[1336] We can hug at the end if it all goes well.

[1337] So, look, if you're negotiating with your child, seven years old, and he wants to go to bed at 9 .30, and you want him to go to bed at 830, what's wrong with splitting the difference?

[1338] Why not in that situation split the difference?

[1339] Okay.

[1340] See, I'm just, I don't think it's reasonable to throw out the idea that qualifies is sometimes my own.

[1341] You're not your name calling.

[1342] How dare you?

[1343] Well, you call me any names now?

[1344] Well, maybe I'm just digging, maybe I'm just digging up the reasons for the marriage clash.

[1345] No, sorry.

[1346] Anyway.

[1347] Do you think there are any?

[1348] circumstances under which the proper way of conceptualizing negotiation is as compromised.

[1349] So here's the first problem with compromise.

[1350] And I know you're familiar with Danny Kahneman's prospect theory, lost things twice as much as an equivalent game.

[1351] The downward spiral we get into compromise, let's say you and I meet in the middle.

[1352] Neither one of us are going to have felt we met in the middle because I'm a human being and I'm wired so that lost things twice as much as an equivalent gain.

[1353] And I believe Professor Connoll actually gave a Nobel Prize winning behavioral economics theory.

[1354] I think he said that he thinks it's actually five to seven times as much, and he and Amos Tversky just said twice as much, so they got fewer arguments.

[1355] So let's say we meet in the middle.

[1356] Let's say you give in 10.

[1357] Emotionally, you felt you gave 20, and you're not going to feel whole until you hit me for 20.

[1358] now you've hit me for 20 I'm not going to feel even till I've hit you for 40 this is guaranteed downward spiral yeah because we're human it's impossible to compromise in a way that we both feel is fair even if the numbers are exactly the same okay so then you it seems to me like you would you're making the case that a negotiation that ends in compromise actually failed I, amen.

[1359] Okay, well, that's worth thinking about, yeah?

[1360] Because that would mean that neither party was able to switch the conceptual framework around so that both walked away enriched.

[1361] Exactly.

[1362] Both are going to walk away feeling hurt.

[1363] It's a recipe for bad, bad, that ain't kind of sustained.

[1364] Does that imply, let's say, then in business negotiation, if you can negotiate, an arrangement where you both walk away and rich, and you have to default to compromise that you should probably walk away.

[1365] Yeah, no deal is better than a bad deal.

[1366] Well, okay, so my question, I actually agree just from looking at...

[1367] You're not going to call me names like your dad.

[1368] No, no, no. I'm a very nice person.

[1369] That's not even true.

[1370] My dad is a nice person.

[1371] I know.

[1372] I'm just teasing the both of you.

[1373] I was looking forward to talking you guys, because I knew it was going to be fun.

[1374] Yeah, this is fun.

[1375] I'm glad that we had from the second ago this happened.

[1376] So I found that when I'm trying to negotiate things, I'm angry unless I change my mind or get what I want, which I think is what you were saying.

[1377] Interesting thought, yeah.

[1378] I've never felt okay with a compromise.

[1379] So I kind of get what you're saying from there.

[1380] Now, putting a toddler to bed, my go -to is, hey, you're free.

[1381] and I'm older than you.

[1382] And 8 o 'clock is the bed time.

[1383] Yeah, it's just power.

[1384] It's authority.

[1385] And it doesn't work.

[1386] Yeah, it's authority.

[1387] So that's my go -to.

[1388] Now, Andre, my husband, negotiates with a 3 -year -old.

[1389] And I go, you're insane for negotiating with 3 -year -old, but he can talk her into deciding she wants to go to bed at 8, which is ideal.

[1390] But when do you use authority?

[1391] Or do you just think that's a bad tactic?

[1392] well um using authority um is is bad for you long term and and in and it because then you if it's with your children you teach you're conditioning them that they you can't win without authority now now i would i would ask you to consider in your interactions with your children over bedtime you're trying to get them to go to bed or you're trying to get them to think and i would offer the larger views to get them to think.

[1393] And then at what age, how do you stimulate that thinking?

[1394] Three is a little early, four to five, but you're really teaching your kids to think all along the way.

[1395] You're showing them core values.

[1396] And if you're getting your way with your kid based on authority, what kind of a core value are you showing them?

[1397] Now, there are times children need discipline.

[1398] Human beings, human beings need boundaries because it makes them feel secure, stability.

[1399] You can say that about 50 times, I would say.

[1400] Yeah, yeah.

[1401] Everybody needs stability, predictability.

[1402] You know, predictability turns into trust.

[1403] You know, your kids need to know if you're going to set a line and how are you going to set that line?

[1404] And then are you going to encourage him to think and become better people?

[1405] And we have, a lot of people use numbers, but the difference in their interactions.

[1406] with their kids.

[1407] And we get funny feedback like, you know, I've cut 15 minutes off bedtime or, you know, 20 minutes off preparation time to go to bed.

[1408] And then the interactions with the children are different.

[1409] This is, this is human nature stuff.

[1410] This is really about human nature.

[1411] How about business stories?

[1412] Let's, let's walk through, let's walk through like a particularly successful transformation that you've seen on the clients.

[1413] Something like that.

[1414] Wow.

[1415] Yeah.

[1416] Well, the first one that springs in mind, you know, because my students at the business schools were my clients, my customers.

[1417] I was coaching them into better deals.

[1418] One of my students is doing a negotiation to come on with a company, and he's the best person for the job.

[1419] He's worth more than what they're offering, and the job is worth more than what they're offering.

[1420] He said, when I didn't pass, I can't get any more out of it.

[1421] I said, write down a list of questions that you would ask, were the answer?

[1422] would be yes, that would prove your case.

[1423] Now flip all those questions on its head and make every one of them a no -oriented question.

[1424] And you'd be shocked what you can get away with, getting somebody to say no. You know, do you want me to fail?

[1425] You want to lose the best person for the job.

[1426] Do you want the person that takes this job to fail?

[1427] He flipped all his yes questions to no questions.

[1428] He came back to me, said the salary offer that they put on the table was so much higher than what they were authorized to do.

[1429] They had to go to the CFO to give him permission to do the deal.

[1430] Another job negotiation.

[1431] Young man is a top analyst in his company making loads of money for his company.

[1432] He wants to go back and renegotiate his compensation package.

[1433] The important thing here, too, is the other side doesn't feel beaten.

[1434] You can goes to his boss and he says, you know, I'm earning more and more for you than anybody else is, I deserve a race.

[1435] And his boss says, yeah, you know, those are all true.

[1436] But I don't see how I can give you a raise.

[1437] It's fair to everybody else who's been here longer than you and put more of their life into this company than you.

[1438] So you come back to me in two weeks.

[1439] If you can come up with a plan that shows how we can do this fairly, I'll give you the race.

[1440] He comes back two weeks later.

[1441] The boss said, did you come up with a plan?

[1442] plan?

[1443] And he said, not.

[1444] And the boss said, why not?

[1445] He says, well, you make a great point.

[1446] There's no way to do this that's fair to everybody else.

[1447] And the boss said, yeah, but it's not an issue of fairness to everybody else.

[1448] It's an issue of how profitable you are for the company.

[1449] And he gave him the deal, gave him a better salary compensation, which was his boss's idea, because he deactivated the negative thinking he had in his head, which was interfering with it.

[1450] And he came back to us and he said, this is going to change my life.

[1451] And that's the kind of stuff we get from our clients all the time.

[1452] How big is your organization?

[1453] Right now we've got 15 people in a company.

[1454] And do they all do coaching of the sort that you've been describing?

[1455] No, we've got five coaches.

[1456] And we've got some business development people.

[1457] you know we've got back office people that keep our coaches and our business development people on tech you got a great team sure sure so um if i came to you for your services how would we start the process what would happen would i have to come to you with like a specific business case or are you training me as an individual more broadly both we do both we get we get we get a lot of people that will come to us for coaching and specific deals and we'll build a strategy in that's going to that's going to accelerate it to its best outcome in a third of the time probably less now the best outcome might be that you stop wasting your time in this deal and move on there's a there's a phrase in sales it's not a sin to not get the deal it's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal yeah yeah right absolutely and that that's So, yeah, those are the deals where the terrible ones are where it looks like something might happen.

[1458] Yeah, why people say hope is not a strategy, hope might just kill your profitability because you're never going to get the deal.

[1459] So we'll coach you through specific deals.

[1460] And typically, almost everybody that we've coached in a deal not only wants more for them, but they want more for people in their company.

[1461] We just, one executive we've been coaching for a year, just signed up all of his executives for individual coaching because we're making them.

[1462] much money.

[1463] Yeah, well, one of the things you mentioned here, too, is that no, when the person you're negotiating with says, no, that isn't necessarily such a bad thing, and you should stop thinking that it's a bad thing, so it doesn't scare you.

[1464] And it's one of the advantages to know, also, no tell, if it's true, no tells you what a dead end actually is.

[1465] And so if it's a genuine, no, you don't have to go sniffing down that trail anymore.

[1466] And that can stop you from death by hope, which really can.

[1467] really get faster.

[1468] That's right.

[1469] They give you the magic words.

[1470] You hit the nail on the head.

[1471] Yeah, not wasting your time.

[1472] And since we've really, and this has been since the book came out, it's something we call proof of life or the favorite of the fool.

[1473] If you don't know who the fool in the game is, it's probably you.

[1474] If you're the fool in a game, you've got to find out, get out of the game, go play with somebody else.

[1475] At least 20 % of, 20 % of all business opportunities are fooling the game.

[1476] What would happen if you got rid of 20 % of the deals where you're just spinning your wheels?

[1477] You don't even have to get any better.

[1478] You just get rid of the stuff that's killing your time.

[1479] Certain things like that can really accelerate your success.

[1480] Any tips on how you might identify pitfalls like that?

[1481] I mean, a clear failure is merciful in some sense as we do.

[1482] we've been skirting around that definition.

[1483] Clear failure is most important.

[1484] It's chasing the thing that never appears that kills you.

[1485] How do you start understanding when you should quit?

[1486] Well, the more focused in a business interaction, the more focused somebody is on price, like right off the bat, if they're pushing you really, really hard for price, 90 % of the time you're the competing bit.

[1487] You know, and the world is, even though I live in Vegas, the world is Las Vegas rules.

[1488] You've got to get off of the out of the game where you're winning 15 % of the time, and you've got to get into the game where you're winning 75 % of the time.

[1489] The more they're pushing you on price, it's a data point you're competing bid.

[1490] So that's your first instinct.

[1491] So your second fatal right there.

[1492] Right.

[1493] Now the next thing is I ask somebody what we refer to as a visioning question.

[1494] If they have any intention of moving forward with you, which makes you the favorite, then you say, all right, so how would we move on from here?

[1495] If they are at a complete loss for words, then they have no intention of moving on with you because they didn't envision it before the conversation.

[1496] I really like that.

[1497] So that's really smart.

[1498] So you ask the person that you're discussing the situation with, how they would envision this relationship if it was successful.

[1499] And if they can't tell you anything, then it isn't obvious at all what they're doing in the negotiation.

[1500] They might be doing what you said with regards to price.

[1501] They're playing you off against their true supplier, let's say.

[1502] Right, right.

[1503] So what you're negotiating, that's such a useful way of thinking about that.

[1504] I mean, you know, when you're starting a business with someone, It's pretty self -evident that you need to develop a shared vision.

[1505] Otherwise, you wouldn't be undertaking that adventure, let's say.

[1506] It's really easy when you have a business to think that what you're doing is selling.

[1507] You know, you have a product and you're selling it.

[1508] But it's much more useful, I think, to think about it as if you are expanding your business and taking on your new buyer as a partner.

[1509] because that's actually what you're doing if it works properly.

[1510] So you're inviting them into your business, and that means your business has to shift and change, and so does theirs, and you both have to see that as a positive thing.

[1511] And if that isn't happening, then the sale isn't going to occur.

[1512] Because you're actually not selling, you're actually trying to build a relationship.

[1513] Right, right.

[1514] And you know what, even if they want to proceed with you, you might not want that relationship.

[1515] That's part of it, too.

[1516] Yes, absolutely.

[1517] They lay out a vision where, you know, what they're doing is not good for you.

[1518] Oh, yeah.

[1519] I mean, that's where yes is a big problem is you end up with.

[1520] I mean, I had a business deal arranged with a large corporation in the United States 10 years ago.

[1521] We were thrilled about it.

[1522] And then the CEO got fired the week later and the deal just fell apart.

[1523] we'd be negotiating it for about a year and a half.

[1524] And it was literally on his desk to sign, and he was replaced.

[1525] And so it just killed it.

[1526] But a month and a half later, we were unbelievably relieved because we realized that we would have had to have done all sorts of work for the company that we would have never got paid for, and it would have taken on a responsibility that was completely incommensurate with the rewards.

[1527] And so that was a good situation where, yes, would have been a catastrophe.

[1528] So I guess partly what you have to do is not assume that no is a disaster and not assume that yes is a blessing.

[1529] You have to sit back and see if the vision, as you pointed out, is worthy of pursuit and that you're both committed to it.

[1530] Yeah.

[1531] What's the how?

[1532] What's the how?

[1533] How is yes is nothing without how?

[1534] I mean, how is everything.

[1535] Or yes, it's even dangerous without how.

[1536] Yeah, well, yeah.

[1537] I mean, yes, without how, is a train wreck coming at you, is however long that relationship lasts, it's going to be blood money, it's going to be painful, it's going to take years off your life.

[1538] You're going to want that time back.

[1539] Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[1540] An opportunity you wish you didn't have.

[1541] Yeah, yeah.

[1542] And, you know, we have those occasionally.

[1543] That's why we decide, you know, we have bad relationships.

[1544] So, look, I used to, I did a lot of executive coaching.

[1545] And like you, my clientele were high performers.

[1546] We asked the companies with whom we work to send us their high performance, and we would increase their productivity.

[1547] Now, I basically worked for the individual, not for the company.

[1548] And my goal was to make their life better on the assumption that that would make them more productive.

[1549] And so I did counterintuitive things.

[1550] for example, with the lawyers I worked with, most of them took far more vacations after they worked with me for a few months.

[1551] But their productivity went up.

[1552] Yeah.

[1553] But our, our strategy, my strategy, was help the person develop an overarching vision for their life that was well balanced and iterable, you know, because your life has to be sustainable.

[1554] If it's, if it's to lab, it has to be sustainable.

[1555] If it's not sustainable, by definition, it needs you downhill.

[1556] And to be sustainable, it has to be developed in a variety of areas.

[1557] You can't sacrifice one thing to another too greatly, or you'll fall apart across time.

[1558] How much do you think success in business and success in negotiation is dependent on the development of a global vision for what constitutes a successful life.

[1559] Because if you're negotiating, you need to know why you're negotiated.

[1560] And that's a deep question, why?

[1561] Yeah, I think completely.

[1562] You know, where is this taking me?

[1563] Vision drives the decision drives.

[1564] It's astonishing what people will do if they feel it's taking them someplace wonderful.

[1565] Yes.

[1566] And they won't do the simplest things that they feel either useless or taking them to a bad place?

[1567] Yes, well, thank God for that, right?

[1568] Because why shouldn't you do something unless it's taking you somewhere better?

[1569] Right, yeah.

[1570] Yeah, so, yeah, the vision drives decision.

[1571] Where's this taking us?

[1572] And that is almost all, and that's in the head anyway.

[1573] That is so, you know, if interacting with me, it just makes you happier to start with.

[1574] You're going to want more of it.

[1575] If you know that I'm dedicated to your, success as well as my own, then you can trust me with your secrets and we'll come up with a better deal because you see that I'm a great long -term partner.

[1576] What's a long -term relationship?

[1577] I'm dedicated to you being happier.

[1578] I mean, it's one of the reasons that people in my company and we love working together because we love helping people, plus we're all helping each other to a better life.

[1579] Yeah, so I was going to ask you about your vision.

[1580] Like if you had to articulate your vision, what would that be?

[1581] What would the articulation be?

[1582] The vision for me, for my life, or for the people that I work with?

[1583] Well, both, both I'd be interested in both of those.

[1584] Your life specifically, but also obviously, because you work with these other people, your vision of yourself has to have their, has implications for how you're interacting with them.

[1585] for first of all for people to be happier in their day -to -day interactions Jane what do you mean by what do you mean by happy I have a specific reason for asking this because you already mentioned that people are much more adverse to loss than they are thrilled by gain right a lot of times when people talk about happy what they mean is less misery rather than more positive emotion like they need less misery less uncertainty less pain less threat that's right right right so when you say happier do you mean happier do you mean more secure and yeah i mean you know we are uh across the board the people that we that we work with that that that we coach we enjoy what we're doing um we don't feel like we're doing anything anybody's expense right we don't feel like we're exploiting anybody our clients on a regular races are not just making more money, but enjoying their jobs more.

[1586] And we weekly, we had a meeting earlier today where we're sort of wrapping up 2020, where we completely pivoted our business, had a ball dealing with the crisis, because we worked so well together as a team, and are actually serving more people, and, you know, it's not our primary objective, but we're more profitable this year than we were last year, which means we get to do more next year, we get to meet more cool people.

[1587] The people that we meet on a regular basis who want to get better and want to make the world a better place are fun people to be around.

[1588] Oh, yeah, that's a good deal.

[1589] That's a good deal.

[1590] Yeah, so, you know, like I mentioned Dan Sullivan earlier.

[1591] He's an interesting cat.

[1592] You know, everybody, Stephen Kotler.

[1593] I get interactions with Stephen Collard, one of the most interesting guys on a planet because he's about making a world a better place.

[1594] These are fun people to be around.

[1595] You're fun.

[1596] Am I fun?

[1597] I think it's fun.

[1598] I'm fun when I'm on.

[1599] I'm not fun when I'm not on.

[1600] What's some questions?

[1601] I think it's actually time.

[1602] And I think we're done.

[1603] So thank you so much for coming on.

[1604] I was incredibly interested to talk to you.

[1605] I really like the fact that I really like the never split the difference.

[1606] That really resonated with me because whenever I do some sort of compromise I feel like I've lost.

[1607] It doesn't work.

[1608] I also really enjoyed the if you know that never split them, if you know to never split the difference then maybe you should just walk away.

[1609] And I think that's really important to know that maybe you don't want to, if you can't come to a compromise and make both people happy, and maybe you don't want to have a relationship with that person.

[1610] I think that's really valuable.

[1611] You mentioned a couple places people can find you.

[1612] What are your social media?

[1613] All right.

[1614] So I'm at the FBI negotiator on Instagram.

[1615] But really the best way for us to help people as much as they want, we got a free negotiation newsletter we put out.

[1616] it's not so important that it's free what's really what's best about it it's concise short read i mean some people put out newsletters and there are 15 articles you don't know what to do it the newsletter is a gateway to everything we have and if i may um for uh the website is black swan lt d dot com b lac k s w a s w a n ltd dot com we've got a text to sign up function also which is simple it only works in the u .s and i'm sure you got a global audience.

[1617] But in the U .S., if you text to the number 33 -7 -3 -7 -77, send a message, Black Swan Method, three words, capitalization doesn't matter, space between each word.

[1618] You'll get a dialogue box back if you want, only if you want, sign up for the newsletter.

[1619] We'll help you.

[1620] We'll move you forward.

[1621] We love helping people provide, just have more fun and have more I'm fine enough.

[1622] I need that.

[1623] It's great meeting you.

[1624] That was an absolute pleasure being on with both of you guys.

[1625] Lovely talking with you.

[1626] Yeah, and good luck, eh?

[1627] I hope that you do continue succeeding in your attempts to help people, help themselves, and by helping to make the world a better place, cliche as that might sound, unless it's replaced by a better philosophy, it's a pretty good one.

[1628] It'll do, yeah, it'll do.

[1629] and it'll do.

[1630] Yeah, my pleasure.

[1631] Thanks, guys.