Hannah Gadsby

[0] Hello, my name is Hannah Gadsby, and I felt confused about being Conan O 'Brien's friend.

[1] I think about brand new shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[2] I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[3] Hey, welcome to Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend.

[4] I'm Conan O 'Brien.

[5] I guess that part was obvious.

[6] Not many people have my deep bass voice.

[7] I'm joined by my assistant Sonoma Sessian.

[8] How are you, Sona?

[9] I'm doing great.

[10] Are you?

[11] Yeah.

[12] Why do you have your fingers up at your mouth?

[13] I don't know.

[14] I was biting my nails because I'm a nail biter.

[15] Are you a nail biter?

[16] I am.

[17] Yeah, it sucks.

[18] You know, when we were kids and we would suck our thumb and our mom wanted us to stop, she took that clear stuff that you strengthen your fingernails with, that varnish, and she put it on our thumbs.

[19] Oh.

[20] And when we put our mouths, but then the problem is that, reflexively, my thumb would go into my mouth, at night, and then I would wake up with all of this.

[21] Oh.

[22] Yeah, but here's the kicker to the story.

[23] I was 24 at the time.

[24] I am not surprised.

[25] Yeah, she did the right thing.

[26] I was sleeping in a giant crib.

[27] But that's, it was more of a sexual thing for me. Matt Goreley is here.

[28] Matt, how are you?

[29] Oh, better now that I've heard all that.

[30] We all have our different fantasies, and mine is to be a six -foot -four -inch Irish baby.

[31] mission accomplished You did it Yeah And my nurse is Sophia Vergara Oh my God What?

[32] She comes in and says Opa naughty You know She's Asian I don't know I didn't I just went I don't know what happened there She was eating something When she came in the room She was eating like some quiche So his mouth was a little full Notti I carumba I don't know what she would say Oh my God move on .org.

[33] Just move on.

[34] Just introduce what's happening.

[35] What is happening?

[36] I don't know.

[37] I'm just a guy.

[38] I'm just a guy who's trying to earn a living.

[39] One of the hardest ways you can earn a living with a podcast.

[40] If I had a choice between digging a ditch with my bare hands or doing a podcast, I got to tell you, that'd be a toss -up.

[41] Because this is a very dangerous job.

[42] And there's a lot of physical labor.

[43] involved, moving these mics around and drinking water.

[44] Okay, let's get into it.

[45] It's stupid.

[46] I am very excited to talk to our guest today.

[47] She is, in my opinion, a brilliant and brave performer, writer, you name it.

[48] She is just a very impressive person, and I'm thrilled that she's here.

[49] She exploded under the scene.

[50] She'd been around actually doing comedy for quite a while, but in 2018, she did a Netflix special entitled Nanette, and it was a seismic cultural event.

[51] One of the most discussed television happenings of the year, if not the most discussed, it was absolutely breathtaking.

[52] She is now touring with a new show called Douglas, and I'm overjoyed that.

[53] that I get a chance to mind meld with her today.

[54] Hannah Gatsby, thank you for being here.

[55] How's it going so far?

[56] It's going well for me. Cool.

[57] I'm delighted.

[58] I just met you minutes ago.

[59] And I am delighted.

[60] And I don't use the word delighted often.

[61] You've used it several times very quickly.

[62] It will soon be revealed that I don't know many other words.

[63] Delightful.

[64] Yeah.

[65] Yeah.

[66] I'm so delighted with you right now.

[67] I'm furious.

[68] I am an admirer.

[69] I wish I could use a stronger word.

[70] I'm trying to figure out what's a better word than admirer.

[71] Desireer?

[72] Stalker.

[73] Longtime fan, first time caller.

[74] Exactly.

[75] I'm going to get this right.

[76] Yeah.

[77] I am a massive admirer of your work.

[78] And I really was blown away when I saw Nanette.

[79] I know you hear this from a lot of people.

[80] And I hate.

[81] to be the person who's saying the same thing you've heard over and over and over and over again, but I thought it was brilliant.

[82] I thought it was spectacular, and I watched it.

[83] I'm so glad you watched it after all that.

[84] I mean, good Google work.

[85] I was just working off of a...

[86] I was just working off at an article on BuzzFeed.

[87] It was a list.

[88] But the...

[89] I felt so many things afterwards.

[90] There are maybe 35...

[91] We can't get to all of them, but there are 35 things that you've brought up in your work.

[92] In that performance alone, and just in your comedy, that have got my mind reeling.

[93] And when I found out that you were willing to come and do the show, I was so relieved because I thought, I want to talk to you personally, and I want to connect with you in this way that can only happen in a podcast.

[94] because if we talked in real life, it wouldn't be recorded and no one would make money.

[95] And I'd walk away.

[96] Like I do, like I have a, this is a good, like, oh, I know what's happening here.

[97] In conversation sometimes, I go, I think it's finished.

[98] And it hasn't, but it's too late.

[99] So you would have, by now, just walked away, probably.

[100] Yeah, you do pause.

[101] And I wasn't sure, but I knew because everyone's still sitting and I'm taking my cues.

[102] Okay, okay.

[103] Because I wasn't done.

[104] I do intend to go.

[105] go on.

[106] Yeah, no, it's okay.

[107] Anything I can do to help you.

[108] No, this is all great.

[109] Okay.

[110] I'm tethered.

[111] I'm good.

[112] Yes, you are actually.

[113] You're wearing a headset that is tethered to the table, so there's nowhere you can go.

[114] And this is my chance to talk to you about so many things.

[115] I'm going to start with self -deprecation.

[116] And your special, Nanette, you sucker us in beautifully with great, great self -deprecating humor, and then you talk about the pitfalls of being self -deprecating.

[117] and some of the problems with it.

[118] And so you gave such a compelling argument for not doing self -deprecating humor.

[119] You made a very compelling argument for why I should go away, and I'm not even kidding around.

[120] And so I wanted to talk to you about it.

[121] Yeah, I'm finding myself in an interesting position now because part of the reason why self -deprecation was bad for me was because I exist in several marginalized identities.

[122] But post -Nanette, I'm in a, I've got a powerful.

[123] platform now.

[124] Like I have quite a voice and a platform and so now is the time to be self -deprecating.

[125] But I can't, I won't be self -deprecating about those intersections of marginalised identity.

[126] So I'm not going to make fun of my physicality.

[127] I'm not going to make fun about my gender and my sexuality, but just being generally hopeless, fine.

[128] So that's still on the table?

[129] I think so, yeah, because that's, you that's universal.

[130] We're all idiots.

[131] That's, I'm so glad you said that because over the years, many people, after my show became established, I think to many people, they would look at me and they would think, well, that's hollow.

[132] He's being self -deprecating, but he's a white man in America with a television show.

[133] That's a minority.

[134] There aren't enough of us.

[135] And I thought my self -deprecation went on to my heart.

[136] drive at a very young age when I was none of the things that I am now.

[137] And I was anxious.

[138] You're not always white?

[139] Well, if you want to get into it, no. No, I was not always white.

[140] You've changed.

[141] Yes, I have changed.

[142] But why did I go for this shade of white?

[143] It's a real commitment.

[144] I could have gone I could have gone for off white.

[145] I mean, there's so many ways I could have gone.

[146] an ecru no one uses that word enough that's not going to help it's not going to help me no not just the word no one's going to hear that and go must slip that into my conversation yes they will someone out there is writing down ecru right now how do you spell it I think it's ECRU cool but just to help the person who's writing it down okay well I was in the midst of telling you about my childhood pain and torment and you got us off on the spelling of ecru and now I'm less than delighted because that's still the only word I know.

[147] Happy to help.

[148] Tell me about the pain if you're talking.

[149] I don't know.

[150] I felt when I was much, much younger, anxiety and lots of just negative feelings that I think a lot of young people feel.

[151] And I downloaded all that into my comedy, and then it never changed.

[152] And so...

[153] It's a reflex.

[154] It's a reflex, and it's there, and it's a little bit my approach to the world.

[155] And I have never minded that that was my approach to the world, but I have often thought, especially after seeing your special, it made me think a lot about ways in which self -deprecating humor can stunt you.

[156] It can freeze you in that moment of powerlessness and anxiety and reinforce it over and over again.

[157] And I watched it and I thought, I believe you're right.

[158] Yeah, well, there's always that conversation.

[159] It's like, oh, all comedians are depressed.

[160] And it's like, yeah, because a lot of comedians work with self -deplication.

[161] And it's that, you know, there's an investment in being a bit hopeless.

[162] There's an investment in being, you know, you're not going to make many people laugh if you're high status.

[163] Very few comedians get away with that.

[164] They're like, I'm nailing life.

[165] It's like, no one cares.

[166] You know who, I don't know if you're going to agree with me, but Jerry, Seinfeld seems to be this strange exception where his manner is very much I'm good and everything's okay.

[167] He's human neutral.

[168] Yes.

[169] He's kind of like the perfect straight white man, you know.

[170] He's just like, yeah, he's not, he doesn't even have red hair.

[171] Do you know?

[172] He's like, you know, he's made some bad decisions on the hair on the shoe front, but other than that, right, right.

[173] He's fine.

[174] Right, right.

[175] You know, there's a lot of pressure, particularly on, I think, guys to, you've got to be likable.

[176] The best way to be likable is to be self -deprecating, but in this world we're finally recognizing, you know, the perils of power.

[177] It's just like there's a lot of particularly guy comics who don't know they have, they're in a privileged position because they've worked their entire life going, I'm just a little guy.

[178] And, you know, life's hard for me because I'm not the perfect guy.

[179] But now it's like, hmm, but being a guy is an advantage.

[180] And so, you know, there's floundering to be had.

[181] Yes.

[182] And so when I watched Nanette, there are so many things that started spiraling in my head, not just self -deprecation because I thought, okay, I can't, I got to table that.

[183] But Hannah really has me thinking about this and ways in which it might be seen as false, ways in which it might be false, ways in which it might be stunting me from finding something else or communicating in a different way.

[184] Yeah, I think it's an enormously helpful, you know, way to grow.

[185] Like, you know, it's the compost, you know, pile of shit on.

[186] And but then, you know, you can't just, you know, I think that's where I was in my career.

[187] Like I was, you know, 10, 12 years in, definitely not 11.

[188] And just going, I don't know what else to say.

[189] Like it's just unless I kept repeating the same angle and I was growing.

[190] you know, with confidence because I was, you know, reasonably, it sounds silly now, but I was doing quite well and now it's silly.

[191] But so it's sort of a, you know, I felt stunted and I was watching, you know, bitterness creep into my attitude and that's never been, you know, professional jealousy and it's just like, you know, it's like that doesn't make sense.

[192] So there's all sorts of things that are no longer part of my life now because it's changed so much, but that was part of the writing of it, is to break out of a rut.

[193] what you did in Annette is so raw and so real and that is the power of it and now you have people that might be saying we can get you 190 dates doing that or we can, you know, 35 Netflix specials and you're being asked to, you know, crank it out.

[194] Do you know what I'm saying?

[195] That's something we do in America is in the UK, if something's good, they make six of them and they're done.

[196] In the United States, we say, let's just keep making these until every one hates them.

[197] Yeah, which is great.

[198] That's a easy way, a retirement plan.

[199] You know, I'll keep, I'll keep turning this out until I'm hated and then I'll just, I will quit like I promised.

[200] No, but I'm very inert.

[201] I'm good at being inert.

[202] I'm feeling that pull, but I'm not so much doing it.

[203] I mean, I've written a new show and I'm about to start touring it.

[204] But, you know, I feel a slight advantage in that sense is like a lot of comedians I work with that started when they were teenagers.

[205] I was in my late 20s.

[206] So there was a lot, there's a lot of unmind material.

[207] And then I've been working quietly on the other side of the world for 12 years, honing my craft, and now suddenly I'm here, but I've got a whole life, you know.

[208] Although I did, I do regret packing so much into the internet.

[209] That could have been three shows.

[210] They could release it separately.

[211] Tolkien, Tolkien was one of the writers, I understand, helped you with parts of it.

[212] The part where you go in the misty forest lost me. It felt unnecessary, but...

[213] Yeah, you know, it's a bridge.

[214] It's just getting you to the next thing.

[215] There's a...

[216] I feel it, anyway, this...

[217] What's next?

[218] What's next?

[219] What's next?

[220] What are you going to do next?

[221] I was very fortunate that someone else had the idea for this podcast and said, would you do a podcast?

[222] And I wasn't that excited at first.

[223] I thought, why would I do a podcast?

[224] I'm doing a TV show forever.

[225] Why am I working my way into radio?

[226] and I've absolutely loved it because it is a completely different rhythm and it's a rhythm that I love.

[227] It's a rhythm that I find really exciting and honest.

[228] And also I get to talk to people I really, really, really want to talk to the way I want to talk to them.

[229] So not much of a risk there, obviously a white male doing a podcast, as I said.

[230] Not a big risk, but a huge reward to try something new.

[231] and I'm just curious for you you say you're fairly inert but that would be a strong temptation I would think people are coming at you and saying okay we know you have a new show but can you come speak here can you come speak there and when you can you retell some of the parts of Nanette that must be very painful for you to talk about they clearly were in the special and now there might be pressure to yeah it's out there it exists and it's I will I don't really want to talk about, you know, to that directly anymore because it was painful and I toured it for, you know, 18 months before it even aired.

[232] So it was, you know, I performed that show in front of crowds of like 30 and 90 people, which is not a comedy show.

[233] It's someone kicking off at a family reunion, you know, like it was grueling, you know.

[234] And it is like I broke the code.

[235] Like I broke the contract of comedy and I knew what I was doing and I knew that was going to be Why do you think you broke a code?

[236] What code do you think you broke?

[237] People are relaxed, you know.

[238] They don't have their defences up.

[239] They're not in there ready to, you know, receive trauma.

[240] And that's what I did.

[241] I made them relax and then I did that to them.

[242] So that's a violation, essentially.

[243] So I had to take care of them.

[244] So that's why the show is written so precisely.

[245] You know, I do leave people in these, you know, it's quite a hard place.

[246] So, but doing that in the room is, you know, at least when people are watching it in their home, They can pause, turn off, walk away, whatever.

[247] Although, you know, they're in a...

[248] But there's a whole room of people getting something I certainly did not expect.

[249] And so it's kind of like an exhausting for me, you know, 18 months of that.

[250] I have a very strong reaction to anybody.

[251] And I didn't hear it a lot, but I heard that there were people who thought, well, wait a minute.

[252] Is this stand up?

[253] It starts out of stand up.

[254] And then it becomes this.

[255] And I had a very...

[256] My view of those people of like, well, you...

[257] you're not a human.

[258] Like, if your first thing, your first thing is after watching that game, it's not technically comedy.

[259] It's just like, what is wrong with you?

[260] No, exactly.

[261] Like, don't watch it again, fine, but what is wrong with you?

[262] Like, if that's, like, first of all, where is the rule?

[263] It's, it's all made up.

[264] I know, but it's an hour, it's an hour and 10 minutes of you in a microphone.

[265] It is going to be what you want it to be, and it was powerful and no moment did you lose me and I laughed a lot and then you also you also did what I think great art, great theater, great works of writing are supposed to do, it got in me and wouldn't let me go and made me think about a lot of things in a way that I was very grateful for and so I was very angry with anybody that had a bit of a like, like what the fuck are you talking about?

[266] is a beautiful, powerful piece of work, and I will fight anybody who...

[267] This is great.

[268] No, I really did feel that way.

[269] Well, it never really happened in the live shows.

[270] Like, that's not...

[271] But once, I guess, went on people in their own spaces that happened a little bit more, and particularly here, I think you have a different stand -up culture than we have in the UK and Australia.

[272] So it's more long -distance runner as opposed to a sprint.

[273] But two interesting people that I thought about when I were...

[274] wrote the show was Donald Trump, Trump, and Taylor Swift.

[275] You know what?

[276] I was going to finish that sentence for you.

[277] Together again, yeah.

[278] Well, you know.

[279] I was like, we've all heard it, yeah, we all put those two together.

[280] Because I was kind of watching with horror, you know, Donald Trump and his rallies, right?

[281] In the, you know, this was before he was not even nominated, but just those, and it's like he's not saying anything.

[282] And he's like, you know, it's, and a, you know.

[283] just watching that group mob mentality.

[284] And then Taylor Swift, I went through a brief obsession just only because I wanted to understand.

[285] I still don't, but I really studied it hard.

[286] The Taylor Swift of it all.

[287] What is this, Swift?

[288] What is it?

[289] What does she?

[290] I couldn't understand.

[291] I mean, it was fine, but it's like, there's a lot of people think it's more than fine.

[292] and they're like, oh, she writes her own songs.

[293] I'm like, maybe you read the words?

[294] I mean, Rain's a strong.

[295] I will not sit here and listen to this.

[296] Rain is a strong metaphor, but it shouldn't carry an entire career.

[297] But that's no, good honor, good honor, good honor.

[298] I really don't have a problem, but I did study the Swift.

[299] And during her 1989 world tour, I think it's called the Cleaner.

[300] speech.

[301] I don't know if you're aware of this.

[302] I am not.

[303] That would make me a creep.

[304] Yeah.

[305] Well, I guess it makes me a creep too.

[306] I really don't feel I'm the demographic, but it was intellectual.

[307] But so she just sort of in her concerts went up in this like platform and with a keyboard and she stood there and it was just like a Messiah just talked to this huge crowd and they're like crying going this is profound and I got some transcripts and just studied them.

[308] I'm like, she has said nothing.

[309] Like she has genuinely not said anything.

[310] Like she meant it, whatever she didn't say.

[311] Like, she really meant it.

[312] Yeah.

[313] Yeah.

[314] And I think it was that sort of, you know, that vagueness of speech that people were just like, oh, well, I want this.

[315] So they fill in the blank, you know, like it's preaching to a, to the converter quite literally but I was quite fascinated with it and it happens in the room like it's a live you know these things wouldn't work on TV so I was fascinated with that that mob mentality and I'm like I don't think that's healthy you know like that's not how you open a closed mind right like if you so that's why I started to go I need to shatter that illusion like break the audience up so people are like I don't know how to react because no that consensus has been broken so people are left as individuals in the room.

[316] So that was my muses.

[317] Yeah, oh, I just...

[318] I wish the show had ended with, dedicated to Donald Trump and toast.

[319] Taita and Titi.

[320] Everyone would have known just what you were talking about.

[321] I've never admitted that.

[322] It was quite the admission in you.

[323] Yes, we have this tradition of the stand -up special where someone prowls the stage and...

[324] They didn't move.

[325] Yeah, exactly.

[326] I was going to say you are like a master matador.

[327] You didn't move.

[328] No, you didn't move.

[329] I don't think you moved an inch.

[330] And in fact, at one point you went and you went to take a sip of water.

[331] I think it's maybe one or two points during the show.

[332] But when that happened, it was electrifying.

[333] Because you had moved.

[334] It was so minimal.

[335] You didn't move.

[336] That was a really conscious decision I made early on because I chose to stand still.

[337] because I thought, well, that's a thing I don't ever have to make a decision about during performance of it, you know, literally taking a stand because it's a lot of heavy lifting in the show, you know, emotional, I guess, but, you know, also the show, I think, is technically, you know, if you had all the material that I, there's three or four strands, three, three and a half hours long all up.

[338] So I would pull it together and take every performance was slightly different.

[339] So it was alive in every room that I did it.

[340] So that's why I thought, well, let's not throw walking and thinking into the same moment.

[341] I thought you are so eloquent and clearly well read and clearly have fought through everything so well.

[342] I thought that added a lot to the performance that your language was so precise.

[343] Was that a choice or you're just really, really smart, which I know you are?

[344] Colomé, Colombe.

[345] I always found myself working a lot and I found that being intelligent was disarming for this bundle.

[346] You know, being quiet, quietly intelligent actually worked early on for me and I think audiences are quite smart generally.

[347] Yes.

[348] And I think they're getting increasingly more intelligent, particularly with comedy, because we've got access to comedy all the time now.

[349] Like there was a time when, you know, the only time you could watch comedy, comedy usually was on TV unless you were, you know, in a city that had a live scene, but generally, you know, that's not much of the world in the scheme of things.

[350] And so you had a very small amount of comedy and that was what you were left with.

[351] Now you can watch comedy any time you like.

[352] And I think, so that I think is great for the form because it's like, well, we can really push it now because people have got the yuck yack sorted.

[353] Anyone can just Google cat videos, they're fine.

[354] They can have laughs like that so that I think it's blown those.

[355] you know, so much potential in, you know, in the idea of what stand -up can be.

[356] And it's, I think it's become much more specialized.

[357] It used to be, everything's become more specialized.

[358] Entertainment's become more specialized.

[359] You can find the exact thing that you want to find because there's so many different small niches that are possible now when they used to be, at least in this country, there were three networks, and that was it.

[360] Here are the shows, here's happy days.

[361] Here's Leverin and Shirley, shut the fuck up and go to bed.

[362] And that's what you got.

[363] I didn't mean to shout at you all like that.

[364] No, no, that was kind of, that's real insight into your life.

[365] They're shud them and Shirley, shut the fuck up, go to bed.

[366] That's how my mother used to speak to me. Good on, she raised you well.

[367] Yeah, she did.

[368] She was a sailor.

[369] But a very good sailor.

[370] Yeah, yeah.

[371] Mums usually are.

[372] I don't know what that means.

[373] We'll be right back with more things that aren't true.

[374] And we're back.

[375] Isn't that beautiful?

[376] Oh, it's really good.

[377] I even read it as you said it.

[378] It's something I noticed that I thought was brilliant.

[379] I loved it because I've never seen anybody do this and no one's had the guts to do this.

[380] And so many people talk about the brave aspects of your show.

[381] And there are so many of them, so many brave moments.

[382] But the one that I don't hear about is that you go after Picasso.

[383] It's brave on so many levels.

[384] No, but no one.

[385] He has always held up as the example of, well, You can't, I mean, Picasso, and I just love that you just said, I don't get it, I don't like it, I don't like him, I think cubism is shit.

[386] Oh, my cubism's fine, like Georges Barack, let's bring him up into the world.

[387] But it's like, you know, also, he's just a mythology now.

[388] Nobody really is moved by a Picasso now, not emotionally.

[389] At the time, sure, he was doing something.

[390] You know, and I could say the same thing for Ninnett.

[391] Maybe in five, 10 years time, you know, more people have done things, you know, growing the idea that I've thrown out there.

[392] And then it doesn't move people in 10 years time because the conversation's changed.

[393] It's of the time.

[394] Picasso does not move people now.

[395] Occasionally you go, oh, he's good with a line.

[396] But essentially, like, he's an historical figure.

[397] And the only reason he moves people is because of his worth.

[398] And his worth is built on his mythology.

[399] And I just don't have time for it.

[400] It's just like only rich men.

[401] by Picasso's, and that's why they talk about it.

[402] That's why he's worth it.

[403] And he's all right.

[404] Keep him in the museums.

[405] Keep the conversation going, sure.

[406] But I had a few other people in there, and let's keep in the story that he was a prick biscuit.

[407] Like he was an asshole.

[408] And he was, but, you know, we could have learned from that.

[409] But it was enabled, right?

[410] And that's, you know, by not looking at that and thinking about that and, you know, making sure that that's part of his story, we've still got those guys.

[411] who are getting away with stuff and people who allow them to get away with stuff because that's the culture because we think, oh, we can't exist without the genius.

[412] But genius is like, it's an event, not a person, and it's replaceable.

[413] Like, it'll always, you know, where does it need, artists will fill it.

[414] But, you know, you don't have to, you put an artist on a pedestal, they're no longer responding to the world.

[415] They're not breathing the same air.

[416] Right.

[417] So I get, it's bullshit.

[418] No, I've also, it's also driven me crazy when people say things like, well, if, you know, if it weren't for Newton, we wouldn't know about gravity.

[419] And I think, listen, Newton was amazing and I'm not going after Newton.

[420] That's your job to go after Newton.

[421] But, no, someone else would have figured it out.

[422] Yeah, so he was brilliant in his moment at that time.

[423] But whenever people think that had Thomas Edison not come up with the light bulb, would still in 2019 be stumbling around.

[424] on the dark, I want to fight them in a bar.

[425] A dark bar, but...

[426] Very dark bar.

[427] Just swinging wildly and hoping to connect with someone.

[428] Yeah, you would eventually.

[429] If you've seen me fight now.

[430] Sort of like freckled pasta whipping around.

[431] Oh, wow.

[432] Yeah, no, that's an image.

[433] Yeah, two strands of freckled pasta just flailing on a sort of ill -made turbine.

[434] It's steam -powered.

[435] spinning and it's really just sad you um it's a good image though thank you i'm working on it's like a lazy susan like a steam powered lazy susan yeah steam powered lazy susan that you've stapled two pieces of freckled pasta too the pastas i've got like i just had that image you know those inflatable car saying yes yes it flip and flop around yes in front of a car lot where they're selling cars that's you fighting in a dark bar yes yes yes imagine that without being able to see it hitting no one.

[436] This is quite Zen now.

[437] Yeah.

[438] I want to say something else.

[439] Cool.

[440] And I think I'm allowed to.

[441] Because my name is somewhere in the show.

[442] Go for it, kiddo.

[443] I'm not a fan of the angry comic on stage because a lot of times I think wait a minute, they're really not that angry about getting a bag of peanuts on an airline.

[444] they're really not that angry.

[445] This is manufactured.

[446] There are moments where you're quite angry and upset and you're expressing that, and it is profound.

[447] Well, the filming of it was actually kind of even more difficult than usual because my mum was in the audience, and that wasn't supposed to be.

[448] I heard about this.

[449] Your mother was, did you know before you went out that your mother would be in the crowd?

[450] Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'd been looking after her all day.

[451] You know, so, and then she's, I did a whole run at the opera house before I filmed it like a couple months earlier and I kept saying, do you want to pop up and, what are you, I'm playing at the opera house?

[452] You can come up and see it.

[453] And she's like, nah.

[454] So she's a pirate.

[455] No time.

[456] Yeah.

[457] Pretty much.

[458] So she's, I organise the date for the filming.

[459] She's, I'm going to pop up for that.

[460] Yeah, I reckon.

[461] Yeah.

[462] I'd do it now.

[463] So it was sort of like, oh, bullshit.

[464] Yeah.

[465] Because, you know, I couldn't do it.

[466] I had to do it.

[467] So, but so that, and as it happened, I could see her because she got quite a distinct white crop of hair.

[468] And, you know, it was sort of like in my eye line.

[469] And when I did this certain bit, I just saw her slump, you know, like, and I just, it was a lot.

[470] I cannot imagine that.

[471] I think I can have a good imagination.

[472] I can't imagine.

[473] talking about something that potent and your mom is, is there.

[474] And I know that she's, you know, going, oh, I let my daughter down, which is not what I was saying, but, you know, that's your thing.

[475] Of course she's going to think that in that room, you know, like.

[476] So that really, you know, I can say with all confidence, that was a genuine performance because of that.

[477] Also, you know, like I just think the, you know, separation of comedy from drama is not the smartest thing we've ever done.

[478] Like, historically, you know, they've always coexisted.

[479] You know, I don't think I'm done anything new.

[480] I've just reminded of why it works so well.

[481] So, you know, it'd be interesting to see what I'd do next.

[482] Well, let's talk about that.

[483] Let's talk about that.

[484] That's priming, isn't it?

[485] You have, where do you go from Nanette?

[486] You know, what's the next?

[487] You have another canvas now.

[488] So it's, I don't know why I stopped talking, but I did, didn't I?

[489] I think I just got scared.

[490] Oh, no. Touring.

[491] Yeah, it was kind of a really interesting creative process because I felt a lot of pressure creatively.

[492] The spirit in which I wrote it was like, well, I can't back Nanette up.

[493] She's quite singular.

[494] I can't just keep, you know, it'd be disingenuous to go, So here's some more trauma.

[495] Yeah.

[496] You know, I think I've dealt enough of that out.

[497] I just need to work on my stuff on my own.

[498] But so I think the way I approached it was to say, well, I can't back that up.

[499] You know, I have to create something, you know, that's content to live in the shadow of Nanette, you know, because, you know, that's where I live now at the moment.

[500] I'm living in the shadow of Nanette.

[501] That's what this show needs to be.

[502] So I ended up writing a show that's really fun, really fun.

[503] I like that.

[504] Yeah, I'm genuinely having fun on stage, which is new.

[505] That is new.

[506] I mean, I'm happy for you.

[507] I am.

[508] I want you to have a show that is giving you joy and not putting you through the ringer every single night.

[509] Yeah, I'm getting angry.

[510] about peanuts on the plane and it took it for me manufactured rage that's working well for me you smashed melons for a while on stage in your Gallagher phase Oh right I'm going to die You were a very good prop comic Yeah That's something people don't know I've seen the footage You were a master Yeah I used to take the microphone out of the stand prowl the stage Yeah Amble Yeah, so I'm actually quite excited about it.

[511] It's interesting, it's my first North American tour.

[512] I gave not really, you know, I did New York and a couple of dates in L .A., but I really haven't traveled about.

[513] So it's going to be fascinating how, you know, audiences receive.

[514] It's interesting now when I get standing my patience before I even get to the microphone now.

[515] And it's weird because it's like, guys, you've got to give me room to fuck up.

[516] Like, don't, like, it's sort of like you just need to have some respect for yourself.

[517] But I kind of understand that they're like, they're going, thank you for what you've already done.

[518] Like I said, I now live in the shadow of Nanette.

[519] Yeah.

[520] So, you know, which is funny that I've created quite a light show.

[521] Yeah.

[522] Well, I wrote it in the spirit of like, I need to not care if this fails, which is the spirit I wrote Nanette in.

[523] I need to not care.

[524] if this, you know, does push me into the margins even further.

[525] So it's like I'm prepared to artistically and creatively take a risk and if it fails, that's fine.

[526] Wow.

[527] So that's, I mean, I had to because I, where did, where did I even come from?

[528] Nobody knows.

[529] Like, this is, I could just, like, I could, but Nanette lives, you know, she lives and she's doing a thing in people's heads.

[530] and it's, I know that that show has had an impact.

[531] I've done enough.

[532] I can clock off now as a human, right?

[533] No, that was not the point of this podcast.

[534] Not clock off as in like, end.

[535] No, just like, I can just get a job on my brother's supermarket and fruit and veg shop and just having a nice garden and stuff.

[536] Yes, you have earned the right.

[537] Yes, you have.

[538] I'll give you that permission because I know you need that from me. I do.

[539] But knowing that and thinking like that gives you the creative freedom that perhaps if I invested in the wall -to -wall isolation.

[540] I have to say I think the risk that you took to risk people's ire or dissatisfaction feeling that this isn't a comedy show.

[541] That was my Australian accent, father.

[542] It's pretty good, mate.

[543] Yes, I'm a comedy show.

[544] We're all pirate mothers.

[545] Oh, hey, that's all a knife in a comedy show.

[546] This is a knife in a comedy show.

[547] Oh, no. What?

[548] Isn't that?

[549] Yeah.

[550] Paul Hogan's still very relevant with the young people in Australia.

[551] Do you know, before I turned 18, I'd seen two films at the cinema.

[552] It was Milo and Otis and Crocodile Dundee, too.

[553] I hadn't even seen the first.

[554] Oh, my God.

[555] Oh, my God, you just saw Crocodile Dundee.

[556] You started.

[557] Myelan Otis and Crocodile Dundee, too.

[558] Two.

[559] I, yeah, I was just in Australia, and I was telling you that.

[560] And I think one of the big, I feel like that country's been lying to us because I went there.

[561] And all they've done, my whole life, my perspective has been in Australia and saying, come to Australia.

[562] You're going to have.

[563] You're going to party in Australia because we're no rules and we ate a shrimp on the butt.

[564] There's all there are no rules.

[565] And listen, you're going to listen to this accent.

[566] This is important to me. I'm feeling it.

[567] I'm not just listening to it.

[568] I'm feeling it.

[569] You're going to come to Australia.

[570] It's crazy down here.

[571] And then I got there and it was, we have a lot of rules.

[572] Very uptight about their rules.

[573] What makes me laugh about that, you know, like we don't care.

[574] Throw another, you know, shrimp on the barbie.

[575] We don't say shrimp.

[576] We say prawns.

[577] If we really didn't care, we'd say, chuck another fucking prawn on the Barbie and catch up and learn.

[578] Exactly.

[579] We speak different words sometimes.

[580] Right.

[581] And you don't drink Foster's Lager.

[582] Hate it.

[583] Everyone hates it in Australia.

[584] It's cats piss.

[585] Yeah.

[586] That's another thing.

[587] They always said, Forster's Australian for beer.

[588] No. And Outback Steakhouse.

[589] Yeah.

[590] What's also interesting is like...

[591] Do you guys have blooming onions, by the way?

[592] Is that a real thing?

[593] I don't know.

[594] It's a, I don't know.

[595] It's an onion that's cut in a specific way.

[596] I love that the two of us just jumped right in.

[597] It looks like a tumbleweed or an artichoke out of it.

[598] It's like a fried onion that they've convinced us is an Australian delicacy.

[599] Who's they?

[600] The people at foster us.

[601] Outback.

[602] It's a conspiracy.

[603] The thing is, like, everyone's idea of Australia.

[604] Australia is a huge country.

[605] Like, we haven't got a very large population, but it's a massive.

[606] massive, you know, in terms of its environment.

[607] But people think it's either like surf or the desert, which essentially that's what it is.

[608] It's the outlines and the desert.

[609] But I'm from Tasmania, which is another world entirely.

[610] So it's not, you know, it's more like New Zealand, really, and it's accepted as politics.

[611] But, you know, like, so it's that sort of like it's almost, you know, people's idea, I don't come from people's idea of Australia at the best of time.

[612] But I did have a meeting, one of the meetings, where I think it was, Warner Brothers.

[613] That's where we are now.

[614] Yeah, this is Warner Brothers.

[615] This woman asked me, you know, she's saying, you know, talking about a particular show that she's worked on, she says, very popular in Australia.

[616] I'm not sure how popular it is in Tanzania.

[617] Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Neither am I. Yeah.

[618] We love rules.

[619] We have rules.

[620] Yes, they were very interesting.

[621] rules and they kept saying, you know...

[622] We're very needy.

[623] Very needy and they give this impression that they're eating prawns off of the...

[624] Do you like us?

[625] Do you like us?

[626] Do you like us?

[627] What do you think of Australia?

[628] Do you like us?

[629] What do you think?

[630] We're all right, aren't we?

[631] We're all right.

[632] Good on, yeah.

[633] Are you good on us?

[634] Yeah.

[635] I love that.

[636] They were very, very, very interested in, in, no, this closes at this time and no, you can't, we don't serve after this.

[637] And these are the rules and this is the district that you're in and that you must behave.

[638] Yeah.

[639] Did you go to the hunger games by mistake?

[640] I did.

[641] There was a long train in Woody Harrelson was there.

[642] Yeah, that's...

[643] Australia.

[644] I mean, this is a frightening tourist ad.

[645] Tourism had you seen.

[646] I know, yeah.

[647] They yelled at me about Fosters, and they yelled at me about a shrimp, not a prawn, and I was scarred for life.

[648] Yeah, well, dig deep into that well for your comedy.

[649] That's going to be...

[650] That's a real well of pain.

[651] Oh, wait, do you see my hour, 15 -minute show?

[652] about how I was deceived by Australian commercials in the late 70s.

[653] The last 15 minutes, pin drop.

[654] I did want to thank you for busting the myth, and I believe you that pain is necessary for art and for inspiration, because that has been one of the big struggles in my life.

[655] It's for years I refused to seek any help because I thought, no, I need this to be funny.

[656] And then I finally got to a point where I thought, whether I'm funny or not I don't care I don't want to be unhappy anymore and pain's always going to find you you know what I mean like it's life that's what it is you don't have to go looking for it and especially not staying in I think there's a lot of particular I know a lot of comedians who are like I don't think I'll go on antidepressants that's where my funny is and I'm like yeah that's not funny right it's it's harmful yeah but you know a couple of shows down the track I'll just be doing on prop comedy.

[657] I love it.

[658] And that's when the issue is really sadden.

[659] You're going to work out your real pain with prop comedy?

[660] I love it.

[661] No, that's where the emptiness.

[662] Well, that's very different.

[663] Yeah.

[664] It's an honor to talk to you.

[665] It really is.

[666] And the name of the show, it's this throw away line about Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[667] The truth is that I really do value meeting people that I admire who've done something I think profound and getting to talk to them and even just be their friend for an hour means a lot to me. So this is a big deal for me. Well, I think likewise.

[668] It's been a treat.

[669] All right.

[670] There you go.

[671] It's been a podcast equivalent of a fosters and...

[672] Prawn.

[673] We're going to get money from the phone.

[674] See, now you sound Australia.

[675] Yeah, it's better.

[676] Oh, I hate it.

[677] All right.

[678] Thank you very much.

[679] And I guess.

[680] Thank you.

[681] Hey, we haven't done this in a while.

[682] Let's do review the reviewers.

[683] So these are some of the iTunes reviews.

[684] They're all five stars that I have here.

[685] Nice.

[686] Congrats.

[687] I mean, I'm sure there are others that are less than five and you didn't pick those.

[688] Well, why would I?

[689] Those people should burn in their own special hell.

[690] Why don't you say there are none?

[691] Come on, Conan.

[692] There are none.

[693] Thank you, Siri.

[694] Okay.

[695] Why are you like that?

[696] Why am I like who?

[697] I don't know.

[698] Damaged inside?

[699] Yes.

[700] Well, let's call my parents now.

[701] Speaking of that, Best Out There, Five Stars by Elbow 68, and their review is, Good job, honey, mom.

[702] Oh.

[703] Well, my mom has never used a computer in her life, so that's not coming from my mom.

[704] Is that what this person's implying?

[705] I guess, yeah.

[706] No, my mom.

[707] She's a brilliant woman.

[708] Yeah, but she doesn't use computers, and if you gave her a computer, she would try to microwave a ham sandwich with it.

[709] So that's not from my mother.

[710] Sorry, nice try, Elbow 68.

[711] Lulu Katchew says, Wish I could be Conan's friend, five stars.

[712] The podcast is amazing because I get to listen to my favorite comedian slash celebrity, just talk and be funny and learn more about his life and the lives of people in comedy.

[713] I love learning, and who better to learn from than sexy Professor O 'Brien?

[714] See, can I say something?

[715] That's someone who sees me as being sexual.

[716] So I don't understand this, this riff you guys have going that I'm, you know, oh, gross, Conan, how could he ever be sexual?

[717] I'm a highly sexualized being.

[718] If you listen to the last episode, we talked, well, we were grossed out by you being sexual.

[719] Yeah.

[720] In general, most people are grossed out when I, in any way, intimate that I may at one point.

[721] I don't think that's true.

[722] Well, my wife.

[723] Horrified.

[724] When Goldblum was in here, I mean, he pulls it off.

[725] You know what, I have to say, there is a sexual energy between Jeff Goldblum and I'm not even kidding.

[726] Something's going on there.

[727] Mm -hmm.

[728] and I am a heterosexual male, but there's something going on there.

[729] You'd hit that.

[730] I'd hit that hard.

[731] Yeah, I'd take a Louisville slugger to that.

[732] What?

[733] What?

[734] That sounds he could murder him.

[735] Why did you stick to collecting presidential memorabilia and making wildly different fashion choices every time you come into this podcast space?

[736] For fuck sake.

[737] Yeah.

[738] Oh, look, what's tomorrow?

[739] A pork pie hat?

[740] Oh, my God.

[741] Hey, look, he's wearing a World War I German helmet and golf shoes.

[742] I don't know You're never the same guy Two days in a row What are you talking about?

[743] This is a very different look I'm wearing a polo shirt I know But then two days ago You're like an architect from the 20s You're never the same And you are dressed in the same uniform Every time Just because I came right from doing my show Where I in fact wear a uniform So nice thing for yelling at the ER doctor For hey you're always in scrubs I don't get an ER doctor Why you always in scrubs Why don't you change it up a little bit Because I don't want to infect the patient whose brain I'm operating on.

[744] I'm just going to come in in Dickie's coveralls from now on.

[745] No, what I'm saying is pick a look and stick to it.

[746] It's very confusing.

[747] I'm trying to get...

[748] No. First of all, no. I don't have to stick to a look.

[749] Yes, you do.

[750] I can express myself through sartorial ways.

[751] Listen, first of all, you're cocky because you know there's 900 other podcasts that you have going at this time.

[752] You come in and it's like, oh, look, Gourley's a beekeeper.

[753] He's got a full net over his head.

[754] Who is he going to be tomorrow?

[755] Hey, look.

[756] He's the ambassador to Finland.

[757] and it's 1911.

[758] Hey, look, he's an Arctic explorer.

[759] What am I wearing?

[760] No, today's just very different.

[761] Matt is wearing jeans and a nice sensible polo shirt.

[762] Hold up the sweater you were wearing when you came in.

[763] I didn't realize.

[764] Yeah, it's a sweater.

[765] Yeah.

[766] I didn't realize you were in the IRA and you were blowing up bridges.

[767] That's so cool.

[768] Oh, my God.

[769] You're suffering bastards.

[770] Tell the bricks are out.

[771] I'll show you on.

[772] Listen, Gorley, I like that you take chances and you take wildly different chances.

[773] Today, you're just being a different person, that's all.

[774] Acting like I'm Lady Gaga or something.

[775] something.

[776] I mean, I'm just wearing pants in a shirt.

[777] Whatever.

[778] The point is not what you're wearing today.

[779] It's that it changes wildly.

[780] It doesn't change wildly.

[781] It does change wildly.

[782] Don't you dare ever speak when I'm speaking.

[783] The idea of a podcast with three people is that only one speaks and the other two listen in reverence.

[784] In reverence?

[785] In reverence.

[786] You hired the wrong people.

[787] In reverential awe.

[788] I'm coming in in a hospital gown from now on.

[789] Open in the back.

[790] I've seen that.

[791] What?

[792] What?

[793] This one took a. I mean, it took many dark turns.

[794] It didn't really.

[795] It was fantastic.

[796] You took many direct hits.

[797] All right, let's please.

[798] I'm tired.

[799] Let's wrap this up.

[800] Let's wrap it up.

[801] I want to go to bed.

[802] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend with Sonam of Sessian and Conan O 'Brien as himself.

[803] Produced by me, Matt Goreley.

[804] Executive produced by Adam Sacks and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Chris Bannon and Colin Anderson at Earwolf.

[805] Special thanks to Jack White for the theme song.

[806] Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.

[807] Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and the show is engineered by Will Bechton.

[808] You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review featured on a future episode.

[809] Got a question for Conan?

[810] Call the Team Coco hotline at 323 -451 -2821 and leave a message.

[811] It too could be featured on a future episode.

[812] And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend on Apple Podcasts or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.

[813] This has been a Teen Coco production in association with Earwolf.