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[0] Mike Rowe became a household name as host of the widely popular show, Dirty Jobs, and he since turned that success into a means of helping Americans through his charitable organization.
[1] Since its founding 15 years ago, the Mike Rowe Works Foundation has given millions of dollars to Americans seeking blue -collar jobs through its work ethic scholarship.
[2] Meanwhile, Mike has dedicated his talents to helping promote the pursuit of an honest day's work.
[3] In this episode, we talk with Mike about his charitable work in the Society of, trends driving him to do it.
[4] I'm DailyWire editor -in -chief John Bickley with Georgia Howe.
[5] It's Thursday, December 28th, and this is a special edition of Morning Wire.
[6] Joining us now to talk about his charitable organization and America's views on education and work is former Dirty Jobs host, Mike Rowe.
[7] Mike, thanks so much for joining us.
[8] Oh, thank you.
[9] So first, the Mike Rowe Works Foundation turned 15 this year.
[10] What were your goals when you first created it back in 2008?
[11] Yeah, that's a mixed bag.
[12] You know, it was 2008, the country was headed into a recession, and there was a giant conversation going on in the headlines about the number of people who were unemployed, and on dirty jobs, everywhere we went, we were seeing help -wanted signs.
[13] So it seemed like there might have been another narrative going on in the country, not just the number of people who weren't working, but the number of jobs that were unfilled, which seemed counterintuitive and is a class.
[14] symptom of a skills gap of some kind, but I thought maybe there might be something more going on.
[15] And MicroWorks really started as a PR campaign to draw some attention to what were at the time 2 .3 million open positions, most of which didn't require a four -year degree, but training.
[16] And these were good jobs.
[17] They just weren't getting any love.
[18] And that lined up pretty closely with the ethos of dirty jobs.
[19] And so MicroWorks really started as a sort of a self -appointed, de facto PR campaign for opportunity.
[20] It evolved over the years into a trade resource center.
[21] It was actually pretty great to see it happen.
[22] Fans of dirty jobs built an online destination where thousands of jobs were listed, like a big jobs board juxtaposed over zip codes and whatnot, with all kinds of instructions and hints about what to do to explore a career in welding or steam fitting or pipe fitting or electric or heating and air conditioning all over different parts of the country.
[23] And that's kind of where I thought it would stay, but it morphed into a scholarship fund after that.
[24] So flashing forward, we've awarded about $7 .5 or $8 million in work ethic scholarships.
[25] We target those scholarships specifically to kids who don't want to pursue a four -year degree, but rather want to learn a skill, ideally in the trades.
[26] But we're pretty flexible when it comes to helping close that gap.
[27] You know, the jobs kind of vary over time.
[28] But for the most part, these are jobs that don't require a four -year degree, but do require training and a willingness to get to work.
[29] and that's what it is today 15 years later and who knows what it's going to be 15 years from now well we've also seen some statistics showing that a lot of young men are now opting out of college are we also seeing a resurgence in interest for some of these jobs or is there still a big skills gap I sure hope so I mean I'm under no illusions I don't think my foundation is going to close the skills gap although I did say early on that that was a goal the bigger goal really is is just to make a persuasive case for the opportunities that do exist, which, by the way, number today closer to 11 million than 2 .3 million.
[30] So maybe I'm making it worse.
[31] I don't know.
[32] But I've seen the statistics you're talking about.
[33] I've seen people start to articulate their suspicion that a four -year degree is the best path for the most people.
[34] And that's important to me because I firmly believe that's the case.
[35] I've got no inherent objections to a four -year degree, obviously.
[36] I hope it's obvious.
[37] But I do take exception to our tendency to paint with such a broad brush and to imply, as we have for the last 40 years, that if you don't get a four -year degree, you're going to wind up with some vocational consolation prize.
[38] The real thing that we're trying to do and have always tried to do is confront the stigmas and the stereotypes and the myths and the mispersexuals.
[39] that keep so many people from exploring careers in the trades.
[40] And for a long time, there wasn't much I could do in that regard except to share anecdotal stories and my own heartfelt belief that we were on the right track.
[41] But happily today, after 10 years of scholarships, I'm able to circle back and talk to men and women who we assisted a few years back and who have since gone on to prosper in the trades.
[42] And their stories are incredible.
[43] And if these metrics are starting to shift, and if these attitudes are finally starting to change, I think it's probably do more to people who are really walking the walk today who are able to, in many cases, sit down with me and just tell their stories because they're really persuasive.
[44] When you hear from a 28 -year -old person who's making $190 ,000 a year welding with no college debt and welcome.
[45] their second kid into the world, and happy and balanced and so forth, people start to pay attention.
[46] Yeah, about that, what are the numbers in terms of income potential in comparison between skill trades and these four -year college -earned placements in businesses?
[47] Is there a way to compare that?
[48] There is, and I'm suspicious of all of them.
[49] All of those comparisons require big verticals and big numbers and, you know, big demographic and geographic considerations.
[50] And I was on some show, I forget which one, one of the news networks the other day.
[51] And somebody said, look, here are the statistics.
[52] What's your reaction to this?
[53] And they said, if you have a college degree, you make this.
[54] If you have some college, you make this.
[55] And if all you have is high school, you make this.
[56] So what's up with your tie rate against four -year education?
[57] I said, well, A, it's just too damn expensive.
[58] $1 .7 trillion in student loans on the books right now.
[59] It's just no joke.
[60] And I think people are starting to realize a four -year degree at any price is not a bargain.
[61] It's an expense.
[62] But more importantly, I said, where on your comparative analysis do you have somebody who got out of high school mastered a skill?
[63] I through an apprentice program or through a trade school, and then went to work with some entrepreneurial sense and began to build a business.
[64] Those numbers fall through the cracks, and it's a shame because so many small businesses that are prospering today started with an individual or a sole proprietor who didn't have a four -year degree, but who had mastered a skill and was willing to put those skills to use and maybe most importantly was willing to relocate because again when you paint with a broad brush what's true in new england right now might not be true in the south it might not be true in the midwest what's true in welding might not translate perfectly into electric in terms of opportunities and glide paths and so forth so there's a lot to consider which in part is why my foundation's called micro works it was supposed to be M -I -C -R -O, not my name, but Microsoft had an issue.
[65] So whatever.
[66] The idea is, look, I don't have a playbook for the masses.
[67] But now, after doing it for 15 years, what I do have are about 2 ,000 real -world examples of people who have come through this program who are killing it.
[68] So I guess that's just a long way of saying.
[69] I've seen people use numbers to make pretty persuasive cases for every position on the spectrum.
[70] And for that reason, I don't really know.
[71] I don't want to put my thumb on the scale and say here.
[72] The numbers really tell the story.
[73] But anecdotally, I can tell you that I just spoke to a woman named Chloe Hudson, who we assisted probably five or six years ago now.
[74] She got her welding certificate, went to work, and is making $160, I think she said, $165 ,000.
[75] over at Joe Gibbs, you know, doing very, very specific types of welding.
[76] No debt.
[77] Love and Life.
[78] So, again, that's one person.
[79] But when people hear her story and when they look at how close she came to signing on the dotted line, she wanted to be a plastic surgeon.
[80] But in the end, balked at the $300 some thousand she was going to need to borrow for medical school and just decided to go another way.
[81] It became a surgeon of sorts with a welding torch.
[82] her story is important, you know, not because it's right for everybody, but because it was right for her and because it is right for other people.
[83] And the only way, I think, to really tell an even story is to hear more from people who have figured out a road to something that looks like prosperity without going six figures into debt.
[84] Now, you mentioned welding.
[85] What are some trades that you anticipate are going to be in hot demand over the next 10 years?
[86] So, for example, if you were advising someone who's just starting out, maybe a teen or a 20 -something, what are some paths that you might suggest they check out?
[87] I can't think of anything in the construction trades that isn't going to pay a great return.
[88] I mention welding a lot because it's sort of like the gateway vocation, you know?
[89] So many people that I've assisted have gone on to have great careers in welding, but so many others have wound up welding and then getting into the plumbing field and then getting into the pipe fitting field and then electric.
[90] And then pretty soon they buy a van and hire somebody.
[91] And then they buy another van and hire some more people.
[92] And suddenly there's a mechanical contracting company where there was none with half a dozen people working in all the skilled trades.
[93] So the skilled trades in general, I think plumbing, electric is probably the biggest one.
[94] in my view right now, the need for electricians is going to be really acute in the next 10 years, five years probably, maybe even less than that.
[95] Lineman in particular are in crazy high demand.
[96] Healthcare, big broad field, don't need a four -year degree.
[97] People are doing really well in that, and I don't think you're going to see AI upset any of these.
[98] You know, it's funny, there was a lot of talk for a long time about the impact of tech, technology and robots on blue -collar trades.
[99] Now, it seems AI is in the headlines, and people with white -collar jobs, writers, and so forth, are looking over their shoulder and realizing there's going to be a lot of disruption in the future.
[100] And I feel pretty good about the jobs we specifically target.
[101] I don't think you're going to see the robot plumber anytime soon, and I don't think AI is going to have a whole lot to do with whether or not the lights come on when you flick.
[102] the switch or the poop goes away when you flush the toilet.
[103] There's a lot of security in those vocations.
[104] Always has been, and I think we're just going to see more and more people getting into those fields because there is true job security there.
[105] Yeah, I found that really surprising the white collar jobs under threat from AI, especially artists and writers.
[106] I didn't anticipate that, frankly.
[107] Along with the millions of vacant, skilled labor jobs, there's also millions of men of working age, her just opting out.
[108] This is a trend that's been alarming a lot of people.
[109] Do you have any thoughts on that?
[110] What's happening there?
[111] Well, I'm not a social anthropologist, but I know one.
[112] Nick Eberstadt wrote the book on the subject called Men Without Work.
[113] Came out in 2015, and I read it right away because, you know, it's always nice when an expert says things that line up with the stuff you've been mouthing off about for a decade.
[114] and, you know, the studies and all of the stats seem to indicate there was, in fact, a war on work, which I had sort of theorized from the start, not a hot war, but, you know, the stigmas, the stereotypes, just the general pushing, you know, against those jobs.
[115] Well, anyhow, Nick republished that book during the lockdowns because everything that he talked about in the first edition was just now suddenly writ large.
[116] on steroids.
[117] And one of the stats that most concerned him and me, for that matter, was 7 .2 million able -bodied men in the prime of their working life, not only not working, but affirmatively not looking for work.
[118] And according to Nick, we've never seen that, at least not in peacetime.
[119] And that means something.
[120] And of course, I said, well, what's it mean?
[121] you know, what are they doing?
[122] If they're not working, who are these guys?
[123] And how are they spending their days?
[124] And of course, there's a lot of research that goes in answering that question.
[125] And the results are not really encouraging.
[126] The majority of them are spending over 2 ,000 hours a year on their screens, swiping left, scrolling, whatever.
[127] Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, but Nick's point was, you know, there was a time when, Just because you weren't working didn't mean you weren't involved in some way or engaged in your community.
[128] The Lions Club, the Rotary, the Boy Scouts, the Future Farmers of America, the JCs.
[129] You know, there's so many things that a person in the prime of their life could do if they found themselves either not needing to work or unable to work and so forth.
[130] But that's just not what the data shows.
[131] There's a lot of self -medicating, there's a lot of inward -lookingness, and there's not much enthusiasm for living, really.
[132] So, again, I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, but we are seeing some things at work that we haven't seen before, and that is definitely something to factor in.
[133] Look, I don't want to be the old out -of -touch guy shaking his fist at the heavens telling the kids to get off the lawn, but that's why we offer work.
[134] ethics scholarships.
[135] Our program is affirmatively directed not toward those men.
[136] I mean, I'm sorry, but I don't know how to fix that in someone.
[137] We're looking for people who get up early and stay late and cheerfully volunteer for every crappy job there is and work ethic.
[138] You know, it's still, it's still a thing, a positive attitude, delayed gratification.
[139] some personal responsibility.
[140] It's crazy how those ideas have become politicized.
[141] And in some cases, dog whistles, you know.
[142] But we haven't wavered.
[143] Our work ethic scholarship program is not much different than it was when we started.
[144] And we talk a lot about those qualities because they're not inherently present in everyone.
[145] And we're looking for the ones who have them.
[146] Well, it strikes me that part of what you do is tell the stories of people that have succeeded and you do it in a compelling way.
[147] Is that part of what you're trying to do with your organization?
[148] It is.
[149] And, you know, I kind of Forrest Gumped my way into this in large part because Dirty Jobs, it was such a big show.
[150] You know, when we started the foundation, Dirty Jobs was on in 160 -some countries.
[151] It ran every single day.
[152] It was the number one show on cable.
[153] And it was popular for a lot of reasons, but when I started to look at it as something other than an entertainment property, it became pretty clear when you look at a few hundred successful men and women who don't look successful but who are.
[154] And you realize that format in that show that allowed me to work not as a host but as an apprentice with these people to talk with them in a completely unscripted way.
[155] and not to tell their stories, but to get their stories, to learn from them in the course of work.
[156] There was an exponential impact of showing the country a long list of well -balanced people who were willing to work their butts off and who had prospered as a result.
[157] And I didn't fully appreciate it until season three or four.
[158] And that's when the foundation started.
[159] I mean, to answer your question, yes, stories.
[160] That's why I get a little hinky when we start to talk about stats and figures.
[161] They're important, but they're not a set of numbers, a column of numbers.
[162] We just have a tendency to default to something actuarial when, in fact, if you really want to confront the stigmas and the stereotypes, you have to introduce people to other people and find a persuasive way to get those stories out there.
[163] So Dirty Jobs did that by accident, you know, and every other show I've worked on since then.
[164] And somebody's got to do it, returning the favor.
[165] The way I heard it, you know, they're all attempts to tap the country on the shoulder and say, hey, get a load of him.
[166] Get a load of her.
[167] Look how they did it.
[168] Because honestly, guys, you know, it's, I'm not always clear with what people want or need, but I know what they don't want.
[169] They don't want a lecture.
[170] They don't want a sermon.
[171] They don't want to be told how they got it wrong.
[172] and I don't see much point in explaining to people how they were sold a bill of goods or why it came to be that they borrowed more money than they're going to be able to pay back to get a degree that they don't really need.
[173] That stuff doesn't really work.
[174] It's all part of the conversation.
[175] But what it really comes down to is finding an authentic way to remind the country that work is not the enemy.
[176] This is really random.
[177] You mentioned it before we started the interview, but I was in Oklahoma last week.
[178] And this happens to me a lot.
[179] You know, and it's, I'm not sure why.
[180] I think maybe it's because I look at it or look for it.
[181] But I called Lyft to get to the airport, and this guy picked me up.
[182] He kind of looked like a version of, I don't know, a Santa Claus who didn't quite get the job.
[183] Older, white beard, picks me up in a work truck.
[184] He's got lumber in the back.
[185] I mean, I don't care.
[186] I get this guy's pickup, and we get to talk.
[187] And, you know, as it turns out, he builds campers for a living.
[188] His name's Mike Morse.
[189] And he tells me the story about these campers, you know, these little teardrop campers.
[190] People love to hook them up to their cars and they drive around.
[191] They see the world.
[192] It's cheap.
[193] They sleep in them, whatever.
[194] And I said, well, that's interesting.
[195] What's your company called?
[196] And this guy, by the way, is droll.
[197] I mean, he is dry as the Sahara.
[198] He's funny, but he doesn't have a whole lot of expression.
[199] And we're driving down the highway toward Will Rogers Airport.
[200] And I said, what's name of your company?
[201] And he's looking out the windshield and he says, Mike's pretty good campers.
[202] I said, you're kidding me. He says, no, I like to manage expectations.
[203] So here I am sitting with a guy who is a tradesman.
[204] He builds these campers one at a time with his own two hands, and he sells them.
[205] And that's what he does for a living.
[206] But he's got to step away from it every so often.
[207] And so what's he do?
[208] You know, he doesn't scroll right or left.
[209] He doesn't hop online.
[210] He doesn't turn on the TV.
[211] He signs on the lift, and he drives people.
[212] He's got two jobs.
[213] So, you know, I didn't tell him who I was.
[214] I'm not sure he recognized me. We didn't talk about any of that stuff.
[215] I just listened to a guy who had two jobs who worked with his hands, who was getting through his life.
[216] And when I got on the plane, I just wrote about our encounter.
[217] And when I landed back in California, a few hours later, it had been liked 411 ,000 times.
[218] Wow.
[219] It had been shared 52 ,000 times.
[220] And I just heard from a guy in Oklahoma, it's a big story out there.
[221] He went viral.
[222] He was on the news.
[223] He has more orders for campers than he's ever going to be able to fulfill.
[224] So the moral of the story is, why did 411 ,000 people on Facebook take the time to write a comment and tell me they valued that story.
[225] And I got to think, you know, the honest answer really is the answer to the question you asked.
[226] It's because it is a story.
[227] It wasn't scripted.
[228] It wasn't focused grouped.
[229] It wasn't cast.
[230] I just got in a lift the way a million people do every hour to go somewhere.
[231] And the guy who happened to be driving me is trying to make ends meet by building campers so people can get out of their house and see the country.
[232] So always stories.
[233] There's nothing but stories.
[234] It's the only thing I've ever seen that works.
[235] I love that so much.
[236] I might reach out to him see if he's got a job off of there.
[237] You're going to be on a long list.
[238] Oh, yeah, yeah.
[239] Mike, thank you so much for coming on today.
[240] We're both huge fans.
[241] It really is a privilege.
[242] You know, I mean, lots of people work on lots of different shows, but to wind up with a foundation that rhymes, you know, with the show I'm known for that's really just a tribute.
[243] to my granddad, to be able to run that today and to, you know, to keep the conversation lively around this thing.
[244] It's, it means the world.
[245] I appreciate you having me on.
[246] I love your show as well.
[247] I'm a fan.
[248] Oh, that means a lot.
[249] Thank you so much.
[250] That was Mike Rowe, founder of Mike Rowe works, and this has been a special edition of Morning Wire.