S5 E12: Anathema | Rachel

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[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

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[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

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[18] Thank you so much.

[19] So you started college.

[20] So you started college.

[21] What I would love to just hear what your, what the culture was like for you and what the experience was like for you going from being, I don't know if sheltered is the right word.

[22] I don't know what adjective you would use to describe it.

[23] Here's the interesting thing.

[24] In a way, I had this, I was this weird dichotomy of being very controlled and isolated and sheltered, but having more almost like worldly experience than other people.

[25] The way the ministry that my parents had, they had a lot of people from different cultures and countries come and stay with us, like different missionary groups that came to Britain.

[26] So I was constantly surrounded by people from, you know, we had people from Nepal, we had people from Kenya, we had people from the Middle East.

[27] We had people from Iceland.

[28] So for me, being around foreigners was normal.

[29] I felt almost more comfortable there.

[30] And, you know, then when I was 13, we moved all the way to Hawaii.

[31] And then two years later, we moved all the way back.

[32] And I mean, this should tell you how isolated we were, that even when I moved back to my home country, it felt the same as when we moved to Hawaii.

[33] you know like even though i lived there my entire life i was not connected to the culture at all and so it was as equal a shock when we moved all the way back from hawaii uh so by the time i moved to college at 17 this is like my third time immigrating you know this is my third time doing this so i felt like an old pro in that way i and i was very at that point i had honed my skills of talking to new people and introducing myself to a new group like i was almost more comfortable like that than I was actually building like longer stable relationships.

[34] And it's not even something I would try to do.

[35] I think I don't know if it's just the way my brain functioned to try and like help me emotionally because there was so much change in like loss when it came to like, you know, losing people that you were close to.

[36] I imagine it felt free and freeing in a way.

[37] It was the first time being on your own.

[38] And I know the last time we spoke, you talked a bit about like when you would get on the phone and your dad would like give you do a rundown of like are you doing everything correctly and all this kind of stuff but there were it probably did feel pretty good to like be able to have your own space finally and make your own decisions it was a lot of different emotions in some ways like when I talk about becoming very skilled at like going into new environments and new cultures like it was almost like I was on like I was a stand -up comedian going on to like, you know, do my set.

[39] It was not something that actually came naturally to me. And it was like, okay, I performed this thing.

[40] I've introduced myself for kind of friends.

[41] I don't know what to do now.

[42] And so it was like I made a lot of initial friends, but they kind of stayed at that same level pretty much most of the way through college.

[43] I just didn't know how to continue growing the relationships.

[44] So I really, I think, clung to the things I could control, which are my grades.

[45] And I was terrified coming to college.

[46] I had never had a lecture in my life.

[47] I'd never had to take notes in my life.

[48] I'd never even used like a computer to take notes.

[49] Like we had a computer in the house, but it was never used for that.

[50] I grew up being homeschooled and I had workbooks and I just wrote everything down with a pencil.

[51] That was it the entire way through.

[52] So I was terrified.

[53] I wouldn't be able to pay attention.

[54] I was terrified I wouldn't be able to write notes fast enough.

[55] I wouldn't be able to keep up with homework, and the curriculum that we grew up with was just awful.

[56] Like, when I went to college, the most I had written was a three -page paper, and that was only once, and I had no idea how to do it.

[57] So, in a way, I came in kind of like a blank slate, and luckily, you know, to my great joy and surprise, found out that I really love the classroom environment, and I did really well.

[58] And I became that annoying kid, I think, because I'd never had an actual teacher to converse with and go and discuss talk.

[59] topics with in class.

[60] Like, I was the kid that, like, could not shut up.

[61] There was a lot of pressure, I think, like I said before, on me to not fail and to do well.

[62] And I was really concerned with that.

[63] But I really had, I felt like people who saw me and believed in me and, like, really spoke to me and not at me. Juxaposed with, like, my love for the actual school in the process was, I was completely mystified by the whole interpersonal aspect of college, you know, like the friend groups, the parties, all that kind of stuff that just made zero sense to me. And I really struggled with how to like interact with people.

[64] And I remember after my first semester, someone said to me like, well, you just seemed so closed off and so like unapproachable.

[65] And I was like absolutely stunned.

[66] I was like, I don't understand like what am I doing that makes me seem that way.

[67] Like you know me, you know I'm not like that.

[68] And I're like, yeah, well, you just seem that way.

[69] And I could never understand why I seemed like that.

[70] And I again began to feel that like a level of like hopelessness that I kind of felt in Hawaii where it was just the sense of something is so off with you and you can't even figure out what it is in order to fix it.

[71] Like it was just like I don't even know how to AP or like more open because I don't know what I'm doing that makes me seem not.

[72] At that time, you know, I was also struggling because on one hand it was a lot of people and cultures and ways of thinking and acting that I wasn't familiar with.

[73] I considered myself a feminist at the time, but even with the way I was brought up by my father, anytime anyone even sounded like a valley girl or liked pink or like to be, you know, act like a girl, there was this level of like disdain and disgust in me that I look back now and I'm like, oh, that is such like internalized sexism right there.

[74] One, I was very much like, well, you know, I hang out with guys.

[75] They don't hang out with girls.

[76] Like, I find guys more funny.

[77] And the majority of that is that I, on guys, were more simple.

[78] I think for me in my brain to figure out.

[79] And so I knew my lines with them and I knew what to do in order for them to be okay hanging out with me. And girls, it was like I could not figure it out.

[80] It was so complicated.

[81] And I was just terrified by them, I think.

[82] And you met your now husband in college, right?

[83] I did.

[84] Yeah.

[85] Actually, I think my husband started hanging out with me because the guys knew that I, what they would call a potty mouth and they just loved to see like what I would do.

[86] And like, I think there was that aspect of like, ooh, let's, you know, she's edgy will hang out with her as she's daring and we were close friends but he actually had a crush on this other girl and I wasn't even looking at him at all like that and um everyone else was like oh my gosh you guys are best friends and so cute and everyone else i think was shipping us but we were like whatever no i don't care and i think for me having such uh intense um feelings about guys and uh you know you can't even get into a relationship without knowing you're going to marry this person And I think for me having a friend who I felt like there was no, like, attraction or there was no pressure, it was just so freeing and like so lovely.

[87] And I really enjoyed hanging out with him because of that.

[88] And I think he like eventually like asked me out and we went to Panda Express and had our first like little get together.

[89] But that was just like to see like how we liked each other.

[90] Then he had to go away and think about, you know, his future and whatnot.

[91] And I remember like as someone who feels like your dating relationships should always be leading towards.

[92] marriage.

[93] I was like, if this doesn't work out, we can never be friends again.

[94] And this is someone that, like, I value their friendship so much.

[95] And I remember being in the shower before class and almost feeling like I was going to throw up because I was so stressed out about whether this relationship was right or not, whether it was God or not.

[96] And it just being such a kerfuffle.

[97] And then he finally got his act together and asked me out again.

[98] And we went on a date and had the whole thing of like, I like you and I like you too.

[99] And I swear, I've never drank so much water in my life.

[100] Like, I was so nervous.

[101] I was sipping like every five seconds.

[102] My, uh, husband when we first started dating, he had a very hard time connecting with me. And I just, conversations were, how are you?

[103] How are you feeling?

[104] We're like, not something my brain computed.

[105] I became very clear that I didn't understand how to care about someone emotionally and not even that, but like how to interact with them.

[106] So, you know, he would be like, you have to ask me how I'm feeling or how I'm doing.

[107] And I'd be like, okay, he's like, no, you have to dig you have to ask questions i'd be like okay and he would ask me stuff and it just wouldn't go anywhere and there wasn't much i he was getting out of me i think he just was like i there's something so off with you because i think i seemed very normal until until we got to that point where it was like interacting with just each other on an emotional level outside of all the excitement and like oh we're holding hands or ooh we're calling each other babe and it was just as he was like well like what is happening and one of those nights of him really really like credit to him the boy stuck through it like he really just like sat me down and was like no we're going to find some way to talk to each other and he got me on the subject of my family and my siblings and I don't know how we got into the subject but I was talking about how I felt like I had been a horrible big sister and you know when I left that we didn't have any relationship with my siblings other than Hannah and I felt like I had been really cruel to Rebecca.

[108] And it was like a floodgate opened and I was just bawling and like all this pain and all this fear and all this grief that I think I couldn't even I couldn't even look at because I felt like I was a monster.

[109] And bless his heart, you know, he held on for dear life through the waterfall that was that moment.

[110] And that was also a crazy part in a relationship because it was like my personality changed after that night.

[111] Like when you have gone from not having any emotion, like when I cried that night, I hadn't cried since I was like 13 since my friend died.

[112] Wow.

[113] Yeah.

[114] And it wasn't even like a conscious thing.

[115] Stuff would be sad and I just couldn't cry.

[116] But once I started, oh my God, I went from being so objective and so cool and so unbothered and so like, I'm a cool girlfriend to being like, why?

[117] And being so emotional and being so hurt by everything and taking everything personally And it was, in reality, it was part of my personality being turned back on.

[118] Everything just was so much more intense because of all the years of just not engaging at all like that.

[119] And so for him, it was kind of insane because I literally changed overnight to be a completely different person.

[120] Thankfully, he selects that person.

[121] Sounds like you had like a really big breakthrough.

[122] Yes, very much so.

[123] And I only happened because of that night.

[124] And so after that, I think there was this feeling of guilt of I left my siblings, but there was still this sense of, man, I got away and I'm so excited to get away that I don't even want to think about what's going on back.

[125] Like, I can't even like look at it.

[126] I can't even like, I have to pretend it's not there because it's still so fresh and so terrifying.

[127] And it was kind of that feeling of when you've woken up from a really bad nightmare and you're trying to do anything to distract yourself so that you can follow.

[128] back asleep.

[129] And you're trying not to remember the dream, but parts of the dream are still coming back.

[130] And you're just desperately trying to do something to distract yourself from that so that you can calm down enough to go back to sleep.

[131] That's kind of that feeling that I had.

[132] Growing up, we were told actually that you were supposed to pray for your husband every single day and that you had to make a list of things that you wanted in your husband.

[133] And you were supposed to pray over that list.

[134] And I remember everyone had these lists and stuff.

[135] And the only thing I could ever think about was I just want someone who will love me and someone that is like not loves me because he has to but it's just like can't help himself and i think that came from much of my parents just it always seemed like a chore to them or you know seemed like they were stuck with each other and didn't really like each other and just all i that was the only criteria i had was someone that loved me and so with my husband it was like the character trait i saw in him that i could not get enough of was his kindness and he was that way with everyone.

[136] Like he would take the time to talk with everyone and he was that kid who would tell everyone that he loved them.

[137] But it was just he had such a depth of care for everyone around him and genuinely loved his friends and genuinely wasn't afraid to show it.

[138] I found that very compelling and I felt so like safe as time went on.

[139] I came to, you know, recognize that that desire just to be loved.

[140] Like, it seems like such a basic thing, you know, that's all I wanted was someone to really love me and care about me and think I was, you know, the world.

[141] And I do feel that way, you know, about Jake.

[142] He really is a lovely person and has, I guess it seems like no matter what I put him through or how much stress or whatever I put him through, he's always only concerned with making me happy and taking care of me. Which you totally deserve.

[143] Well, and I sometimes feel bad because, you know, for a lot of times I wasn't even healthy enough to recognize what was happening.

[144] I wasn't healthy enough to take care of him as well.

[145] We've done a lot of therapy and I've worked really hard and that's something that we've worked a lot on.

[146] Good for you.

[147] Yeah.

[148] Well, and being my diagnosis of autism actually, I think, saved our marriage because there were so many things that just didn't compute in my brain and he couldn't understand why they didn't compute.

[149] And he's like, does she just not care?

[150] Is it just, you know, is that why she's not remembering when I'm telling her not to put the spoon like on the sink or, you know, buy the sink in the sink?

[151] And we've been in therapy for like about a year before I was diagnosed and literally like after I was diagnosed, it was like a switch flipped.

[152] And all of a sudden we were able to actually work through things together and like the understanding of this is the way you are and it's not because of that you don't care enough about me. It's just the way your brain works and like being able to release each other from that burden, I think was really great.

[153] And I think allowed me to be like, oh, this is something I'm not very good at and let me work harder on it without beating myself up of like, you're a horrible worth of person.

[154] Even in those moments where it was like, I truly didn't remember.

[155] It was like, well, if you cared enough, you would have remembered.

[156] If you cared enough, you would have noticed that he was feeling sad.

[157] If you cared enough, you would try harder.

[158] So when I got diagnosed first with ADHD, I remember like crying because I felt such joy and relief of like, I'm not a bad person.

[159] Like I suck at these things just because of the way my brain works.

[160] It's not because I don't care.

[161] It's not because I'm lazy.

[162] It's not because I'm not trying hard enough.

[163] It's just the way my brain works.

[164] And to be like released from that feeling of that you're just at your core, horrible person, you keep hurting those around you.

[165] It was incredible.

[166] You know, like there were some people who like, you know, I told I got diagnosed and were like, oh, how do you feel?

[167] I'm like, it's amazing.

[168] And they're like, oh, okay.

[169] I think that unfortunately, something that has happened so often is that, because mental health is stigmatized.

[170] I don't know as much about stigma regarding ADHD personally, but with autism, I feel like some people associate diagnosis as this horrible bad thing.

[171] But really, when you talk to people who are autistic or for myself from a parenting perspective, diagnosis was one of the best things that ever happened to make me a better parent so I could see my child and what they needed from me and understand and feel like, I'm not a piece of shit parent.

[172] It turns out, my child just needs to be parented different than is intuitive to me. And I need to get to know what they need instead of expecting them to perform the way that I think or society thinks is the correct way.

[173] And no one's doing a bad job or is a shitty person because of that, you know, it's just the way it is.

[174] My life is like five billion times better for knowing why I am.

[175] am the way I am.

[176] And as a person who was taught that, like, you're, the way you act says about how you truly feel about people or truly feel about the world.

[177] And, you know, you can have good intentions.

[178] But the devil's always trying to use, you know, always always trying to use those bad qualities you have to like mess you up or to mess those around you to like be released from that and being like, oh, it's not because I'm a horrible person and not trying hard enough.

[179] It's just the way my brain works and there's nothing wrong with that.

[180] Do you feel like there were any other parts of your identity that you came to terms with that had an impact on your life and how you sort of live your life today?

[181] Oh, huge.

[182] Yeah.

[183] So my first night in the dorms, I had been traveling for over 24 hours, completely jet lagged.

[184] But it was kind of middle.

[185] It was like early evening when I got there.

[186] And so there were two ladies who were dorm leaders and they were very excited.

[187] And I was very excited.

[188] And so we set up and talked very late into the night.

[189] And they were talking about the different experiences they had.

[190] And at some point, they got onto like horror stories of being dorm leaders and like things they came across and stuff like that.

[191] And one of them started talking about how she walked in and these two girls were, we're kissing and everyone was like oh my god and it was this like massive big scandalous thing and I at that time was very much homophobic and very much of the belief that that was an abomination and whether or not I believed that people should have rights or you know I think I was always more progressive than my family in that way it was just you know that is not something that is going to lead to you having a successful life and it's not the best way and my parents also believed that, like, if you suddenly turned gay or became gay, that it was an actual, like, spiritual attack against you of the devil and that the devil would get inside your mind, like, they basically referred to it as for people who didn't believe in mental illnesses, that was the one thing they were referred to as a mental illness.

[192] Wow.

[193] And I love that it's always turn gay, not that you're born that way, of course.

[194] With a choice, you know, whatever.

[195] So that was first night in the dorms.

[196] And so that wasn't, like, super shocking, but it definitely was like, ooh, okay, this is, like, very much like they're not okay with anything like that.

[197] And in some ways, because my family, I knew my family were very conservative.

[198] I didn't really fully know like how everyone else felt about things.

[199] I knew some people were super conservative and some people were a lot more accepting of that.

[200] But it quickly became very clear that like you would get expelled if anything like that ever happened.

[201] And while I was at college, there were multiple people that like there were rumors about them.

[202] And I think I remember one girl, like their rumors about her being a let's be in.

[203] And everyone was talking about it.

[204] And you were kind of either taken aside and mentored and like saved from it or you were kind of ostracized to the point where you left.

[205] And it was this thing that was just very sad.

[206] You know, it was always the sense of like, oh, it's so sad that they're having to deal with this.

[207] This is a struggle.

[208] And, you know, we just really need to pray for them.

[209] So cut to, I think, around my end of my first semester and going into the second one, I began having dreams where I was romantically involved with females.

[210] And I was like, what in the world?

[211] Like, this has never happened before.

[212] This has come out of nowhere.

[213] And of course, instantly, I'm like, it's an attack by the devil.

[214] You know, I'm finally away.

[215] It's because I haven't been as diligent, you know, with serving the Lord or whatever, because I'm getting excited by being away from my family or whatever.

[216] And I told my mother, which I know with everything you've already heard about my mother, it's probably shocking that I would go and talk to her.

[217] But that's, they were still like my confidants and still the people I went to when I didn't understand something.

[218] Sure.

[219] And so she was like, well, you know, there's just concept of like when someone suddenly starts having homosexual feelings and they've never had them before, it could be because there's a demonic entity that's attached itself to you and is putting those thoughts into your head.

[220] I'm so sorry.

[221] There I am.

[222] Terrified for my very humanity and the fact that I'm beginning to have these feelings.

[223] And at first it was just dreams.

[224] I was like, well, I don't understand.

[225] Well, I'm having these dreams.

[226] I don't like girls at all.

[227] And then it began to like creep into like everyday life where it was like just randomly noticing that a girl was attractive or feeling that way.

[228] And then being like, oh no, it's getting worse.

[229] Like it felt like it was a disease that was like slowly taking over.

[230] And it felt like it was something that I couldn't control and that it was doomed to.

[231] And of course, then there's that aspect of me always being terrified of demons being after me. And so there was that very real fear just like feeling almost like hunted.

[232] And my mother had always, weirdly enough, she would always say this thing of like, when you were born, someone told me that like you were going to be very important and that the devil was going to try to destroy your life as soon as he could.

[233] And she brought that up as well.

[234] And it was a thing of like, this is a devil just trying to like destroy you and you need to fight it as hard as you can.

[235] And I like just did dating Jake around this time as well.

[236] And so it was doubly terrifying because I was like, oh my gosh, like I found this amazing guy.

[237] And I can't stop dreaming about girls, like what is happening?

[238] But I was, you know, still attracted to him.

[239] So it was like I wasn't, I knew it was like, okay, well, I'm not gay.

[240] Like I'm just keep dreaming about girls and I keep thinking about how pretty girls are.

[241] Dang it.

[242] But it was also this thing of like, it was so hush and so taboo at the college.

[243] It was like, well, I can't even tell anyone that I'm struggling with this because if I do, like, they will never let me anywhere near them again.

[244] And, you know, not that I don't even think I ever really had a crush on anyone at school, but it was just a sense of no one can ever, ever find out because you will lose what closeness to them that you had.

[245] You will lose whatever friendship that you had.

[246] And so I think a big reason why when I never truly got close to anyone or even tried to was when I didn't want them to find that out.

[247] It felt like it would slip out eventually.

[248] But the other reason was that I still had all this like pent up emotional issues.

[249] and all these anger issues and I was scared that if I actually like got into a fight with someone that I would snap and they would see the rage come out and it was always a sense of like sometimes I'd get into like a little argument with someone and some guys would make like jokes like oh she's mad now and it was just like sense of like oh bitch I'm not mad trust me like we're arguing but if I was mad like you'd know it it was this thing of like I can't let myself hurt anyone I need to protect them almost for myself I knew especially with dating Jake and seeing that the more I emotionally got attached to him, the more volatile our relationship became and the more like everything.

[250] I took everything personally and everything like, you know, hurt me more, made me more angry.

[251] And there was a sense of like if I truly let someone close, then the minute I feel super close to someone and I feel super comfortable, I'll begin feeling comfortable showing them every part of me and that means they're going to get hurt because I'm going to become nasty.

[252] without even trying to.

[253] Do you think it's because of the way you saw your parents, you kind of saw yourself through their lens and kind of assumed that you were going to be like them?

[254] Well, yes, but also like in the environment we grew up, it was very violent.

[255] And you don't grow up in a violent atmosphere without also becoming violent yourself.

[256] Not only to survive, but also to survive.

[257] To control.

[258] Yeah.

[259] And so I knew I was violent.

[260] And I knew that was something I didn't want, but I also knew it was something I couldn't necessarily control.

[261] And so it was very much the thing of like, I need to keep myself away from people so that they aren't hurt by this.

[262] And I mean, we always talk about, you know, you always hurt the people you love the most.

[263] And it's because they're the most comfortable around them.

[264] And so they see all of you.

[265] And so no one ever saw me, ever, ever, ever, ever.

[266] the word that was used in our theology classes to talk about people who were cut off from God or like were lost, were like anathema.

[267] Like you are anathema, you are cursed.

[268] And that's what I felt like.

[269] And I felt like if anyone knew that, then I would lose what connection I had.

[270] And I didn't want to lose this beautiful world that I become a part of.

[271] And in a way, I was kind of acting how my father did when we lived in Hawaii, this idea of like, you're in a more healthy environment.

[272] environment and you won't even engage in it because you are terrified to lose a little bit of light you have, even though you could gain so much more if you did open up and let people in.

[273] Mm -hmm.

[274] You're so terrified.

[275] We went to Jake's house for something and one of the youth group leaders at his church, they came back and they did a speech and basically talked about being gay and talked about like how, you know, they'd come to accept that that was part of who they were, but that wasn't their identity.

[276] Like they considered themselves gay.

[277] They considered themselves a child of God and a Christian.

[278] And, you know, if that was what attraction they happened to have, that, you know, whatever, but it wasn't their identity.

[279] And people lost their minds, like, at that church.

[280] Like, I felt so bad for that person because, I mean, they were so brave.

[281] They literally, they got up in front of a conservative youth group and said that.

[282] So brave.

[283] Related so hard to it.

[284] And I know they got such backlash from that.

[285] And, but they changed my life when they said that because I, I came out to my husband that very night, driving back from youth group, bawling my eyes out and, you know, terrified and feeling like, you know, definitely coming from the aspect of like this is a sin that I'm struggling with or this, not even a sin, but this is like a default that I have, you know, a result of the fall where it was like this wasn't what God intended and it's kind of this way.

[286] It's not necessarily my fault, but I'm not supposed to engage with it and just feeling so horrible about it.

[287] And so feeling like I had to become more attracted to my boyfriend in order to stop feeling that way.

[288] And it felt like the more I tried to stop, like the heart, like the more intense it was and the more I couldn't ignore that.

[289] And we got married and as you can imagine two virgins who have never had any type of like activity like that before wedding night wasn't that great and the first year wasn't that great.

[290] But we didn't have any help and there was no one to talk to.

[291] Like there's so many things like I wish the therapist we had like now, I wish we had her back then because like there was stuff we talked to.

[292] about.

[293] And she's like, oh, we just need to do this and this and this.

[294] And we're like, what?

[295] I remember talking about how, you know, I was in a lot of pain trying to be sexually active.

[296] And ladies were just like, well, you just need to relax.

[297] And one thing that they told us, they like literally sat all the girls down and someone who had gotten married the year before came into the speech.

[298] And they literally said that the reason you were supposed to wait until marriage to have any type of sexual contact or any type of like, you know, romantic contact was that your body naturally gets excited and if you do that stuff before marriage your body's going to get used to it and it was not going to be as excited and because of that it's going to hurt because your body's not excited enough and so if it hurt during sex it was your full because you had like messed around before marriage and you brought this on yourself so many things are messed up with that but of course on top of everything else yeah on top of everything else I'm like well, clearly, I can't stop dreaming about girls, and this is clearly, you know, my body is like, that's what I get for not fighting against that sin more, for not, you know, truly getting rid of it, which I don't even know how he would do that, even if you could.

[299] Spoiler alert, you can't.

[300] But once we were married, like, we didn't know what was happening.

[301] There was really no one we could talk to.

[302] We were just lost, and I was so insecure, and he was so insecure.

[303] secure and everyone builds up sex in your wedding to be this big magical thing, especially if people make such a big deal out of two virgins getting married.

[304] Let me tell you, my God, you would have thought, like people, it felt like people were living vicariously through you.

[305] It was super weird.

[306] Purity culture.

[307] Yeah, me my husband literally said, like, if we could go back, we would ignore everything else and just let a relationship progress naturally, you know, and have sex when we felt like it was normal and right in our relationship, you know, where it felt natural because there was so much pressure and so much like guilt and like you had spent so long trying not to have sex that you had already had so much baggage and pain and guilt from the times where you almost messed up or where you know where you thought like you weren't quite good enough or that you should have been able to resist more and then when everything doesn't go quite how you wanted to on that wedding night you're thinking well you know it's because you didn't wait enough and because you like you did all of the stuff beforehand which really was nothing, but even that seemed like whatever it was, it was your fault for it happening that way.

[308] The more troubles, you know, that we had through marriage, the more anxious I became about having feelings towards women.

[309] And the more that became like an escape.

[310] And that also meant the more like taboo it became.

[311] And I think around this time slowly, I've been doing more theater, I've been exposed to more people.

[312] I'm not just on the little college on the hill.

[313] I'm actually like getting exposed to you know gay culture and gay people and seeing a you know a gay couple that have been together for 40 years and are still so in love and our partners and seeing that like dedication and you know also seeing a bunch of Christians get divorced and wondering what how can this logically be correct that one thing is right and one thing's completely not slowly i'm beginning it's kind of that thing where you begin to accept it in other people before you can accept it in yourself.

[314] And so I never, you know, I began, I got to a point where I was like, I didn't really think it was evil or sin, but I wasn't ready to accept that I was that way and that that was okay.

[315] And so did you public, sorry, you didn't publicly come out only to your husband at that point.

[316] Yes.

[317] And that was because like he was going to find out one way or another.

[318] He had to know like he had to know I was damaged goods almost.

[319] He had to know what he was getting into.

[320] I'm sorry.

[321] So around this time, things are just hard and And it feels like every time, like, we feel like, you know, why isn't our relationship working?

[322] Why isn't this working?

[323] I keep coming back to that in my brain and being like, well, you know, because you're having these feelings.

[324] And, you know, maybe this, maybe you're actually a lesbian.

[325] And you haven't known that your whole life and now you're stuck and you're going to break this person's heart and what are you going to do?

[326] And I got to the point where I got so suicidal and so freaked out that I thought it might be better for me to commit suicide than to divorce him.

[327] I could take myself out of the picture and people would view him in a better light if I died and feel worse for him rather than have him deal with the stigma of being a divorced person for the rest of his life.

[328] Because there are some churches where they won't even let you be a pastor if you're divorced.

[329] And I felt like I almost had to make it easier on him.

[330] I had to protect him, which is more I think of that old sense of like having to take care of everyone else creeping back in.

[331] But my senior year, I mean, I was, I developed insomnia.

[332] I would sit in class and just have fantasies of like putting a screwdriver through my ear.

[333] Just I would have horrific dreams about committing suicide.

[334] Like it was just I could not.

[335] I felt like I couldn't live.

[336] And I managed to graduate.

[337] And I graduated summa cum laude.

[338] Like a fucking boss.

[339] Yeah.

[340] Well, here's the thing.

[341] Me and my husband, we got married three weeks into the school semester.

[342] And it was insane.

[343] And then we managed to both and that semester were the 4 .0.

[344] And that's how I dealt with things.

[345] You know, my life may be falling apart.

[346] But, you know, if I could succeed in that way, I felt like I had some sort of like worth.

[347] I was, I mean, I've been struggling with my faith for a long time, but I hadn't slowly had begun to kind of verbalize it in like a very gentle way.

[348] But I came to realize that the way I thought about theology, like I was, I understood how it worked the same way that someone might understand.

[349] the rules for how a universe in a D &D game might work, where, like, you understood all the complexities to the point where you could, like, write a dissertation of how that, how the laws of physics worked in that universe and have complete knowledge, that didn't necessarily mean I actually considered it to be real.

[350] But I didn't realize that until much, much later.

[351] And I don't even, you know, I'm not saying that it's not real or is real.

[352] It's just, I realize the way I interacted with it was the same way I interacted with books of fiction.

[353] I just didn't understand that at the time.

[354] So then in my senior, my final semester, I know as soon as we graduate, we're going off to Des Moines.

[355] My husband's going to be a pastor.

[356] Like, I remember one time at 3 o 'clock in the morning, just sobbing, sitting up in bed and just sobbing my eyes up, just being like, I know as bad as is here, it's going to be worse there.

[357] Like, as conservative as they are here, they're going to be more conservative there.

[358] Just like, I am going somewhere where no one can ever know me. Like I can't ever show anyone anything and I'm going to embarrass my husband.

[359] I'm going to make life hard for him.

[360] And so that last semester was incredibly traumatic and things have been pretty rocky.

[361] And with me and my father for a while, things are just rough.

[362] And I kind of have pulled away pretty much.

[363] And so I'm getting ready to graduate.

[364] My husband comes in and he says, hey, your father just called me and said that he's coming and wants to surprise you for graduation.

[365] And I was like, oh, wow.

[366] I mean, I, at that point, you know, was still in that mode of, like, all I want is for us to have a good relationship.

[367] All I want is to have a good relationship with my father.

[368] And so I was, like, elated and so excited.

[369] And apparently the story is that my mother sat up in bed one day and said, you need to go to graduation and you need to fix your relationship with Rachel.

[370] Otherwise, you're never going to have one with her.

[371] Like, if you don't fix it now, it's going to be over.

[372] And she said, you have to go.

[373] And so he came over.

[374] And it was interesting.

[375] You know, I was very excited to have him there.

[376] And to have him be around when I was graduating.

[377] Like I was graduating at summa cum laude.

[378] I had won the theological award.

[379] I was performing at my graduation.

[380] I was singing like an aria.

[381] And there was multiple professors who kept telling my dad like how amazing I was.

[382] And it was this like surreal moment to suddenly have everyone around me like praising me too much.

[383] father and he even told me he was like i had no like he was like i i had no idea you were actually smart like i had no idea you were this smart i was like gross you know he got to hear me actually like sing classically and you know was so impressed and like got to see all that i was and and but the flip side to that while this is going on you know stuff is still just not jiving between us like he'll make comments that were really frustrating i tried to open up with to him about my thoughts about the people I was working with in theater because he was saying that, well, you just really like doing theater because these people are really accepting.

[384] And that's the trap.

[385] You know, they accept you as you are.

[386] And so then you go to them and that's how you get caught up in their sin.

[387] And I was like, I don't understand how you can look at someone who have been together for like 40 years and they're still faithful to each other.

[388] How is that more wrong than a Christian couple getting divorced?

[389] He was like, well, you can't sympathize with them.

[390] He was like, if you, you can't think about it like that.

[391] Because if you think like, think about it like that, then you'll begin to sympathize with them.

[392] Wow.

[393] I remember looking at him and being like, so I'm not supposed to think of them as a human who has emotions that I can relate to.

[394] Cool.

[395] And just being like, it was one of those things where I was so affected.

[396] I was starting to cry, but I was doing it silently to the point where he didn't even realize even though he was sitting right across for me. My husband knew because around that time it was like, well, I'm gay or queer, I guess.

[397] And I still don't know if I'm quite okay with it, but like I'm pretty, you know.

[398] And this thing of like, oh, God, like, there's no way I can tell him, like, he will throw me away if he ever knows.

[399] And later on that night, I was still trying to open up to him and say, like, you know, I just, I don't understand.

[400] I'm like graduating Bible college, but I feel like more disconnected from God than I ever have.

[401] And, you know, I feel like I'm trying really hard.

[402] And the more I learn, the more I realize that, like, it's not, I don't see it as real and I don't understand why.

[403] And he was like, well, have you been listening to non -Christian music?

[404] Have you been watching, like, movies and stuff?

[405] This is all.

[406] all in your head and like this is the reason why like you let all those stuff in i was like dad i do bible devotions every single morning like this was i'm trying to tell you this is how i felt my entire life i've just gotten to a point where i've just gotten to a point where i've realized even going to bible college and studying for four years and change it and he was just going backwards and forwards and somehow he said something like well you know you just you don't start off loving god but you just have to say it he was like you know when you got married and you told jake you loved him.

[407] Like, did you truly love him then?

[408] I was like, well, you know, I, I know I love him more now, but I know I loved him as much as it was then.

[409] He was like, well, it's the same thing.

[410] You just need to keep saying it until it's true.

[411] I was like, well, I've never felt that way.

[412] Like, it's never, it's never, it's never been a thing.

[413] And the verse people used a lot of was like, in the Bible.

[414] I don't remember where it is, but it's in like the new testimony when they talk about, like, come back to your first love.

[415] Where, like, come back to your, come back to how you were when you first became a Christian, when you first, like, fell in love with Jesus.

[416] And I was like, I never had that.

[417] I was never in love.

[418] I never had that moment.

[419] It's always been like this.

[420] I haven't lost anything.

[421] I've just finally admitted that it was never there.

[422] And we somehow got into the subject of like what had happened to me and what he had done to me as a kid.

[423] And we, I got like really like uptight and agitated and I felt like really kind of aggressive.

[424] And he just looked at me across the room, straight in my eyes and said, I'm so sorry I did that to you.

[425] Will you forgive me?

[426] And it was such a shock to have me, like, you know, I was acting badly in that moment.

[427] And I just burst into tears and started bawling.

[428] And he got up and hugged me. And it was this amazing cathartic moment.

[429] And we bawled and held each other.

[430] And my husband was like, you know, in the corner being like, oh, my God, it was amazing.

[431] And he was like, come on.

[432] Like, we were going to make curry.

[433] He was like, I'll show you how to make curry.

[434] And he showed me how he did it from scratch and we watched a movie and you know we snuggled and it just it felt like almost how we were before all this stuff went down with Shannon and it was very healing and it was wonderful and I felt like man he's really maybe he's really changed maybe like we've really seen progress like he's never like he came he spent money to come across the world to come find me and to have this moment and to look me in the eye and like, wow, like he just does feel like he has actually changed.

[435] I'm Dan Tversky.

[436] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[437] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[438] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[439] She's like, I can't.

[440] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[441] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[442] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[443] Everybody thought I was holding something bad.

[444] Well, you were holding something.

[445] back intentionally.

[446] Yeah, yeah.

[447] Well, yeah.

[448] No, it's hysteria.

[449] It's all in your head.

[450] It's not physical.

[451] You're, oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[452] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[453] Or is it something else entirely?

[454] Something's wrong here.

[455] Something's not right.

[456] Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[457] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[458] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[459] You can binge all episodes.

[460] of hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

[461] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[462] She had been under the influence that she left him there.

[463] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[464] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[465] What happens next?

[466] depends on who you ask.

[467] Was it a crime of passion?

[468] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[469] This was clearly an intentional act.

[470] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[471] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[472] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[473] Everyone had an opinion.

[474] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a UNESCO.

[475] decision.

[476] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[477] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[478] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[479] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[480] Turns out people are as equally conservative and liberal.

[481] Like, you know, not quite as liberal as they are on the East Coast, but there's some pretty really cool people up here in Iowa.

[482] And it was good, I think, for us to have the break and to move.

[483] I still really struggled for that couple of years and really disseminating what I believed and what I didn't.

[484] And the more I learned about my family around that time, I began to really connect with my siblings more.

[485] And the more I heard about little snippets of things happening.

[486] And the summer before I got married, I went home to work because we needed money for the wedding.

[487] and I couldn't work in America on a student visa.

[488] So I went home and I worked two jobs.

[489] But during that time, I had seen things that freaked me out.

[490] Like, my mother had lost it on me during a fight, and I had tried to lock myself in my room, and she, like, broke in and ripped my blanket off of me to the point where I had to go, like, lock myself in the toilet to get away from her, and I was howling and crying, and my dad acted like nothing was happening because he didn't know what to do.

[491] But I also saw them, like, flip out my little brother Daniel and there was one time we were at a friend's house and Daniel had either gotten into a fight with one of the friend's children or they had both gotten in trouble together but the friend was yelling at both of them and my dad was like furious that Daniel had embarrassed him and he like dragged him into the car and we were people were yelling and shouting and it was just like time leave time leave we need to go need to go and my father put Daniel in his car seat and was strapping him in and he stopped and grabbed his wrist and twisted it to the point where I had to physically rip my brother's arm out of my father's hand because I thought he was going to break his wrist just because he was so angry at him and how old was your brother at the time um let's see seven years ago he would have been I think like six maybe oh my god Yeah, it was horrible.

[492] And I'm, like, my brother's my baby.

[493] I'm very protective of him.

[494] And I, like, I physically laid hands on my father and separated him from my brother.

[495] And I don't know if he just didn't expect it.

[496] Like, he just kind of backed off after that.

[497] I think he never physically engaged me once I got old enough.

[498] And I think he knew is because I would fight back.

[499] And I think part of him was scared of me. So one or two things like that happened enough for me to kind of be concerned.

[500] And then as time went on, and the more I reconnected with some siblings, like they began to get phones because we, I didn't get a mobile phone to think I was 16.

[501] And it was kind of like the rule in our house, like you had to be 16 in order to get a phone.

[502] And so I had to wait for them to get older enough because once they got a phone, then they could actually text me and we could have conversations outside of our parents listening in.

[503] And I think that was not necessarily targeted against me as much as it was targeted against them having connections to anything outside that my parents couldn't control.

[504] But I began to hear every now and then, And it would swing between like, we've had this real come to Jesus moment and we sat down as a family and, you know, we've really like talked it out.

[505] And it was really healing and helpful.

[506] And like we really like, you know, told each other exactly how we felt and we all apologized and whatnot.

[507] And it'd be like, okay, cool, everything's great.

[508] And then stuff would go on.

[509] And I'd be like, hey, how this thing's going?

[510] Yep, it's cool.

[511] Everything's great.

[512] And then like six months later, I would hear about something that had happened, you know, maybe three months before.

[513] And I heard that my father had gotten.

[514] into a fight with Rebecca to the point where he was going to hit her and he told my sister Hannah to get out of the room and Hannah said no and wouldn't leave my father alone with Rebecca because you know she knew she was going to get hurt and my father kept yelling at her to get out and Hannah kept saying no and so then my father like hit her and threw her onto the ground and I don't think he had really snapped that badly in a long while and the girls were old enough to like everyone freaked out and i think he felt like shocked enough and bad enough that he kind of backed off the next morning apparently he wanted hannah to apologize to him for being so disrespectful and causing this and she was like you attacked me and he was like i shoved you she was like you did not shove me you hit me and he was like okay you're right i'm sorry i'm sorry i did the whole thing and I found out about that much later, and I was very troubled and very disturbed by it, finding out that he's once again hit one of my siblings.

[515] I was so angry.

[516] I was so frustrated, and I actually called him up, and I said, we need to talk.

[517] I was still in that point where I was still trying to reach him, and I had just began to learn about therapy and understand the concept.

[518] They talked about this in our school, which I really appreciated, the concept of, like, emotionally healthy spirituality.

[519] of like you can be a Christian for 20 years, but not have grown emotionally during that time.

[520] And you can still be as immature as you were when you first became a Christian as when you are now, even though you may have learned so much more technically about the Bible.

[521] And it's actually really cool.

[522] I think it's a emotionally healthy spirituality.

[523] It's a really good book, actually.

[524] Help me a lot.

[525] Help me transition a lot from being someone who brought up in a culture that didn't believe in mental health and didn't believe in anything like that to where they were like, no, this is a real thing.

[526] And it's just like, you know, if you believe that, you know, you need to go to the doctor for this, you, you know, you can still be a Christian believe that you need to get therapy.

[527] That's awesome.

[528] Yeah.

[529] Changed my life.

[530] And it changed a lot of people's lives who went to that school.

[531] And so I was very much in that lane of like, wow, like, you know, if you can just read this book, if you can just understand, like, you know, if you can just go to therapy, you know, we could fix this.

[532] And so I called him and I was terrified to do this.

[533] But I felt like we had really had a, you know, one -to -one moment where, like, I spoke to him as an adult and he, respected me as an adult and spoke to me like that and we had this like understanding of like you know this we had this respect for each other so I called them and I was like talking about stuff and I said hey I heard what happened and I basically called him out on it and he did the whole thing of like well you know like the child needs to like respect and blah blah blah blah blah and I like stop and I said no I said no matter what the child is doing it is never the child's fault that the parent snaps, loses control, and hurts them.

[534] I said, that's not what we're talking about here.

[535] And, like, I really called him out and he, like, back down.

[536] He was like, okay, yeah, you're right, you're right.

[537] And I said, dad, listen, I love you.

[538] I know what a great person you can be.

[539] I know how good our family can be.

[540] I was like, I know you don't want to do this.

[541] I know how bad you feel after instances like this happens.

[542] I know how horrible you feel.

[543] And I know that you don't ever want it to happen, but it still does.

[544] And I said, the reason it still does is because you're not fixing what's that.

[545] Yes.

[546] And I said, like, you need to go, you know, I was like, you need to go therapy and blah, blah, blah.

[547] And he was like, you know, he said, like, thank you for calling me and talking to me about this.

[548] I really appreciate it.

[549] And it was this, like, amazing moment where I called my abusive father out.

[550] And he was like, yeah, you're right.

[551] I fucked up.

[552] And, like, thank you for actually, like, I don't know, it felt like I was talking to someone as a friend.

[553] It was terrifying and elating at the same time.

[554] And my parents went to like, like, couples therapy after that.

[555] And it was very much focused on, like, dealing with, like, past.

[556] trauma and like why that how that would affect you in marriage and I was like well okay he they still wouldn't go to an actual therapist but like this was like close enough or getting us there and I'd been talking with my mom a lot and you know sharing my own mental health discoveries with her and she was pretty supportive supportive in terms of like she understood that physical things could affect you emotionally and spiritually spiritual things could affect you emotionally and physically mental things could affect you spiritually and physically We disagreed on the fact that she believed if you fix the thing spiritually, everything else would be fine.

[557] I was like, well, no, you need to figure it out mentally and emotionally before any of that happens.

[558] Like, it doesn't matter how much you pray.

[559] So we were in this weird, tough spot of, like, both of us being on this, like, mental health journey, but she was coming at it from a side of, like, you need to be, like, delivered from whatever it was there.

[560] Around this time, she really fell in deep with, like, this kind of like a, it kind of felt like more witch -doctory -ish new wage.

[561] type of things where she literally had this book of prayers and she would you had to pray specific prayers a specific way in order to like she would term it like you had to break soul ties with certain people you had to break soul tie with this person in order to be set free from the trauma that was there and that was the reason why me and dad couldn't get along fully it's because I needed to pray and break the soul tie that we had and she apparently had went to this deliverance meeting and she said that she had seen this like evil dark spirit that had apparently been in my father's family for generations.

[562] It was a spirit of like murder and a spirit of suicide.

[563] And it had been hunting us for generations.

[564] And of course, I have had depression.

[565] I've been pretty violent.

[566] And I have been suicidal.

[567] So she's like, well, it's obviously like been passed on to you.

[568] Like we have to break it.

[569] I'm so sorry.

[570] Yeah.

[571] I was very, I was like, nope, not doing it.

[572] Basically, like you're possessed with this demon that's been in our family for three generations?

[573] Or that it's like constantly coming for you.

[574] It's constantly trying to like.

[575] Oh, so So you weren't, it was coming for you.

[576] But God, that's not terrifying at all.

[577] But it also meant that, like, it was the one, like, egging my father wrongs.

[578] After I've had that big talk with my father, and it feels like things are growing and moving, and people are, you know, healing and growing and whatnot.

[579] My mother goes to this, like, conference or whatever, and she has this moment where she says she saw it, like, in a vision.

[580] And she saw it, like, get, like, cut off from the family.

[581] and she said she felt it physically leave her body.

[582] I don't know the logistics of that.

[583] Don't even ask me to explain logistics of how it was connected to her, but it was supposed to be from my father's side.

[584] I don't know.

[585] Anyway, in her brain, the black, dark thing was gone, which meant my father was finally free to be the man he was always supposed to be, which meant nothing that happened beforehand mattered.

[586] It was a clean slate, and I just needed to, you know, it didn't, dad will hear you now.

[587] You just need to go back and talk to him again.

[588] And he'll hear you now because the black thing's gone.

[589] So that was really rough and was very frustrating.

[590] And we went back to Scotland for my sister's wedding.

[591] And we spent two weeks there and things were just odd, very weird.

[592] We were living in the house.

[593] And I was still trying to really connect with my dad.

[594] And I felt like we had this.

[595] Like we're poor and I knew they'd been going to therapy and things were better.

[596] And I remember one night saying like, well, how are you doing?

[597] How are you feeling?

[598] He was like, what are you mean?

[599] It's like we've been francing on about politics for us.

[600] And I was like, okay, whatever.

[601] We're not going to, we're going to stop talking about all that.

[602] How are you doing?

[603] What do you mean?

[604] Well, how are you doing?

[605] How are you feeling?

[606] And he was like, uh, well, didn't know what to say.

[607] Like, didn't even know how to talk about that.

[608] And it felt weird.

[609] And he kind of skirted around some things like, you know, we're doing really good.

[610] And like, you know, I've really recognized that your mom's my partner in this and that I needed to like give her equal, um, respect in the church and whatnot.

[611] And all the stuff that sounded really good and sounded very progressive and sounded like, very hopeful.

[612] But things just felt weird and felt so tense.

[613] And literally the day, after spending two weeks with them, the day before me and my husband leave to go back to America, my mom takes me aside into the backyard.

[614] And I can tell she's really upset.

[615] And she starts like being very emotional.

[616] I'm like, what is going on?

[617] And she tells me that like a couple weeks before I came, her and dad got into this fight and like he pushed her and hit her.

[618] And And she had told her not to tell anyone at their therapy because other people were there that were involved with other churches and everyone would know.

[619] And so she wasn't supposed to tell anyone.

[620] And she didn't feel right about it, but she felt like God told her to just do it anyway.

[621] And so she did.

[622] And I was like, no, mom, what do you?

[623] And she was like, I don't know.

[624] And told me that she was having visions and that she had this vision of social workers coming to take my brother away.

[625] and that she was scared that things weren't changing and that people were going to know and that my brother was going to be taken away from us.

[626] Next time.

[627] Something Was Wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[628] Music on this episode from Glad Rags.

[629] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[630] If you'd like to help support the growth of something was wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers and support at patreon .com slash something was wrong.

[631] Something was wrong now has a free virtual survivor support forum at something was wrong .com.

[632] You can remain as anonymous as you need.

[633] Thank you so much for listening.

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[637] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[638] I'm Sachi Cole.

[639] And I'm Sarah Hagey.

[640] And we're the host of Scam Fluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once a facade falls away.

[641] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[642] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[643] To the infamous scams of real housewife stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[644] Follow scam influencers on the Wendry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[645] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.