Tony Bellew: Nothing Made Me Happy Until I Found This

[0] Every night, I cry myself to sleep.

[1] Nothing made me happy.

[2] Nothing.

[3] I believe I was put on this here to fight.

[4] It was my father who taught me out of punch, and at 12, 13 years old, that's a powerful tool to show a kid.

[5] Finding out that your brother was gay being a pivotal moment.

[6] Why?

[7] In the mid -90s, it wasn't cool to be gay and black.

[8] That's when I'd say the fighting takes shape.

[9] I used to brutalize my body, cannibalize my body, cannibalized.

[10] as my own body.

[11] There's five nights that I've had that I can't remember anything.

[12] That shield you put up to help you to survive, I'm guessing it's not serving you.

[13] No. Bell you two, hey, nil.

[14] One of the things I will never forget is the raw emotion that came out of you after you won that fight.

[15] You know, people look at you and think you're the success story.

[16] They look at the money you've got, they look at the scenario and the setup you've got, but ultimately, are you happy?

[17] Are you happy?

[18] So without further ado, I'm Stephen Barr, And this is The Diary of a CEO.

[19] I hope nobody's listening.

[20] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[21] Tony, from reading your book and a lot of the things that you've said over the years, one of the things that really stood out to me, because I think it's been front of mind because a few guests have said this to me of the last couple of weeks, is I was a product of my environment.

[22] And your early environment was Wavertree in Liverpool.

[23] Yeah.

[24] Take me back to that environment and tell me what it was about that environment that shaped who you went on to be and who you are today?

[25] I am a product of my environment and I say that and the way I get to that is because it's no coincidence I'm a fighter.

[26] I was just, I believe I was put on this hair to fight.

[27] It's something that I enjoy, it's something that I like.

[28] It's something that I'm not afraid of.

[29] Like fighting doesn't, it never scared me, it never bothered me. And I think that's a bit weird to be honest, but it's just me. change who I am and the environment I was raised in definitely helped produce that you know from being a kid at the age of 10 me at my old man leaves home he's gone and then at that age my little brother at that age is about six or seven me two elder brothers one had moved out and the other one was on the verge of finishing school so the elder one who finishes school then goes on to further education he goes to university so we keep moving on over a few years and then once I hit 1314 it's quite apparent my younger brother's gay and then that's when I'd say the fighting take shape and things take shape so yeah you said your dad left home when you were 10 yep how come he couldn't keep his dick in his pants to the top and bottom of it and got caught basically fantastic father but you know was carrying on, broke my mum's heart and was gone, yeah, so a product of most men, to be honest, but that was the reason my dad was gone, so he was carrying on, he had an affair with some scut bag of a woman who knew he was married with four kids and, yeah, he just he let us, the thing in between in his pants rule his head and a thing that he regrets every single day for the rest of his life, which he constantly tells me and does, These are the mistakes men make.

[30] What impact did that have on your mother at the time?

[31] I was heartbreaking.

[32] Absolutely heartbreaking.

[33] As a kid growing up, it's not nice, mate.

[34] Watching your mother cry herself to sleep at nights.

[35] And the other things that go on in life is heartbreaking.

[36] Very, very tough.

[37] And you don't understand how tough it is when you look back as an older as a grown -ass man. You realize how tough and hard it really is.

[38] So heartbreaking, yeah.

[39] getting to see the impact of like infidelity in your own home has it impacted what you're like as a man with your oh that's deep i've never been asked to questions like this but it's all good yes it does add a life where i try me best to learn from others mistakes and not just me own so i would never ever in a million years having a fair ain't happen just not going on not a chance it things sit with me and I'll say I try me best to learn from other people's mistakes but yeah growing up in that period of the time and that part of my life was very very difficult and you just you have to learn to adapt so then at that stage your home's broken and my friends then become my family me closest friends that the five or six us that all go to school together they become my best friends and they become me my brothers from there on in and you learn to cope with life and do things just because my dad done what he done he didn't detract anything from as a father he was a brilliant father he's being my greatest supporters since the dad was born he i'm as shannon like he believes in me like no one else could ever believe in me like he adores me and no he does and i adored him i would do anything for my father but yeah them them years when he's gone very very difficult especially when he goes to prison as well so that's hard as well you mentioned um you're finding out that your brother was gay being a pivotal moment.

[40] Why?

[41] We always had a conscious thought that he was because my brother's gay, he's not, he's not like, you hear my brother before you see him.

[42] You know, he's out there, he really is.

[43] So we knew it quite early on, but as I say, as time goes on and you see the environment that he's raised up in, he's constantly around women, and yeah, he just adapts and we see where it's going.

[44] but as a family we understand and know we get him I love him he's my little brother but then for the outside world it doesn't go down well yeah in the air in the mid 90s it wasn't cool to be gay and black like my brother's darker than me so he's the same shade as you are Liam and that just didn't go down well yeah picked on in school regularly in the junior school it's not too bad it's okay because it's kind of just looked at as being you're loud and you're out there but when you start getting towards seeing you're your school level it's like oh okay he's gay and then that comes to problems and headaches and when you braised him wavertree being a kid growing up i think i seen one gay man one gay black man his name was skippy no one would mess with him because he was like six foot three and his name was skipy and he would fuck around and no one would just leave him alone because anyone who did try and mess him he was going to smack them but my little brother wasn't that way inclined at that age he's not smacking no one he just take a slap or whatever so i couldn't allow that to happen though anyone who would step to him I would step to them and it would always be me win every single time so you find yourself defending him a lot oh yeah lots of times lots of times I mean the amounts of times I'd have to go up to the school I remember being a kid taking my mum's car she was away she was on holiday and I got a phone call saying your brother's been threatened to be beat up from after school or some kid threatened them so at this time I think I was 16 took my mum's car which I shouldn't have done went and got my little brother and I think I smacked someone to school or whoever was waiting for him I'd give them a good beating driving back home after they go and crash my mum's car really yeah and then for the all no one's ever had that story yeah crashed my mum's car into a taxi and then set off running for a couple of weeks so yeah for a couple of weeks yeah it was gone for a couple of weeks back in the day so yeah you could just go missing in them days and yeah my mum's car class that's been stolen and stuff like that so yeah lots of crazy things I've done and experienced in my life but yeah this is the first time I've actually spoke about that side so you're the first well done you've dragged something up new something new yeah I'm just so genuinely curious because much of my the reasoning behind my questioning is to really try and understand how someone came to be who they are today and all of these like threads through your life of like the absence of your father which creates this void where you almost become the man of the house and then you've got this thing you need to defend in your brother and even the race thing I find really interesting because your mother is the same skin tone as me roughly, isn't she?

[45] Yeah, maybe a bit darker.

[46] Yeah?

[47] Simly to you, yes.

[48] But you're significantly lighter than me. Yes.

[49] So having a mother who is, I'm guessing, considers herself to be a black woman.

[50] She's black.

[51] Yeah?

[52] Yeah.

[53] And growing up in that environment where there wasn't a huge amount of black people, did you find your, I was wondering this when I was reading about your story, did you find yourself almost like a little bit like identifying with that community while also not being considered part of it by do you know what I mean?

[54] Yeah, of course.

[55] So you're not black enough for the brothers and you're not wise enough for the white people.

[56] So yeah, I've got that since I was a kid but it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[57] It did growing up because you're trying to think who do I relate to, what they relate to.

[58] I relate to just being a decent person.

[59] I'm trying to do the right thing.

[60] I've done enough bad things in my life to know that I'm a good.

[61] person if that makes sense so yeah after race color creed it doesn't really bother me you're either good or you're bad but yeah it's not hard as i i've always wondered what it must have been like for my mother grown up because that must have been very difficult especially for you know and i know it was difficult for my mother and father to be together when they first get together because my father's coming into a period at the time where the talks with riot are happening and for a white man with a black woman and black kids and stuff he's had this fight regarding that as well but for my mother it must have been horrific at times must have really been hard so but she's strong she's a strong woman and she can get through anything I saw that a lot my mum obviously my dad's white my mum's from Nigeria so my mum we moved to Cornwall right where everyone's white when I'm like one or two years old and my mum she just constantly like struggled with it her car being burnt by people locally, shops been broken into and everything.

[62] And she really built a huge amount of, I don't know, anger and resentment towards people, which I'm really happy I didn't carry with me. But, you know, at that age, even I had racism.

[63] A lot of racism on the playground and stuff like that.

[64] And being someone who wouldn't necessarily be a target of that racism, but would be, could identify with the community because your mother's black.

[65] Was that ever like a thing where you would hear people would have the, guts to be racist around you but they but because they wouldn't think you'd be offended by it but did you only give you advice on how to get through that or did you just work it out no never i mean i i got a few i'm probably the only significant fights i ever got in was someone calling me the n word in school yeah and i was the only black kid in school like there was obviously cornwall like yeah night 92 um that was those were the only fights i ever got into and i didn't really know what it meant i didn't even know i was black until someone called me the end which you know i mean it was Yeah.

[66] So, but did you get some advice on that?

[67] No, I wasn't giving advice.

[68] I just found myself.

[69] I used to build a bit of a protective wall around myself.

[70] So I would let people know I was half black within literally the first couple of minutes of meeting them.

[71] So that way it would shield them from saying anything.

[72] Because if someone says a racist comment and run to me, I'm going to smack you.

[73] Or I'm going to do something.

[74] I'm going to butt your smack here.

[75] I'm going to give you a piece of my mind.

[76] I'm going to do something.

[77] So I'd find myself like meeting people and I'd be like, yes, I'm mixed race.

[78] So yeah, my mum's black, my dad's white and some of them used to look at me just have to say, why is he telling us that?

[79] And I think because I just don't want to hear the comments that I'm used to hearing of this word, that word, I'd heard them on my life and people would make smart -ass jokes and, you know, de -grade black people or whether it would be, I've heard every single word and phrase you can possibly imagine.

[80] And I would only hear them because they were undertone racism.

[81] It would be said because they thought I was white.

[82] And that was the most frustrating parts So then I felt myself letting people know, look, I'm not white.

[83] I'm not black and I'm not white, but I'm just me. But yeah, I'd let people know what I was pretty much straight away because if I hear that undertone or I hear that slight comment or dig, I'm going to respond unless it's a woman.

[84] And a couple of times I've had to let that go and it's been women who've made undertone comments.

[85] Only once I think I took it up with a woman because I was working in the sports centre, Philadelphia, Pillsidge City Council.

[86] and a woman, yeah, said the M word and I was furious and I just had to give it a peace of my mind and I called her every slut and sweat you couldn't go on and yeah, and I actually lost my job for that yeah, because yeah I went too far she just denied she said it but I was like you know I'm such a quiet not quiet but I'm such a I treat people everyone with respect everyone in me too doesn't matter whether you can be anything in life I'm no better than anyone whether it's a fucking bin man on the street whether it's a fucking I was a lot lifeguard, whether it's someone who's begging on the seat.

[87] I am no better than them, but believe you me, they're no better than me. You shouldn't disrespect anyone.

[88] So, yeah, I gave it a piece of my mind.

[89] I lost my job and that was the end of that.

[90] You learn to deal with moments like that.

[91] And as I say, in the environments I'm raised in, I've found a way of shielding myself, protecting myself.

[92] And then also, my actions now speak loud and my words because of what I've done with my career.

[93] When I sat here with Eddie Hahn, it became really, uh, apparent that many of the successful people I meet start with this kind of innate desire to please a parent.

[94] Eddie's one of them, right?

[95] He kind of lived in Barry Hand's shadow.

[96] You spoke a lot of people.

[97] Wow.

[98] Aunt Eddie.

[99] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[100] But he was, he was, when I was reading your story, I saw the same thing.

[101] You had this real strong desire to impress your father.

[102] And I'm wondering, why?

[103] Why?

[104] Why?

[105] Because he's my dad.

[106] And I adore me, dad.

[107] I love him.

[108] Not everyone has that though.

[109] Yeah, because not everyone has a father and I'm very fortunate that I do.

[110] Yeah, he might not have been living at home from the age of 10, but he's still my father and he still loves me and adores me. I know he does.

[111] My dad would do anything for his kids.

[112] He would literally die for all of his children.

[113] And that was passed over to me. I think that's why I adore my kids so much.

[114] But I always wanted to impress him.

[115] Why?

[116] He's my dad.

[117] So, yeah.

[118] he's my dad I want to impress him and a part of me wants to do more than he's done do better I want to I want to impress him but I also want to go further than where he's gone and yeah I was lucky enough for fortune to be able to do it especially when my dad was a hard man my dad couldn't fight you know really really fight but he tried to boxing didn't stick at it didn't go right and it didn't go right because not because he's not hard enough or tough enough just because he's mentally he can't stick with it he can't take someone jab in the face off him because he goes nuts he attacks him with a stool in his second fight he's got a wicked temper you would never know that as us as his children but I've seen it literally because I've worked on nightclub doors with him I've strapped up a bulletproof vest at the age of 19 with him and we've been working side by side working on nightclub so as a young kid I just wanted to be like him So when I realised what my dad was, he owned a nightclub security company.

[119] And he ran them doors brilliantly.

[120] You know, the nightlife in our city was fantastic.

[121] We had the best club in the city.

[122] People still talk about today.

[123] It was called society.

[124] And the policy was three to one with women to men.

[125] That you can possibly imagine the trouble that would cause and what we would get from the outside in.

[126] And we created an environment and a place that was unbelievable.

[127] And I've watched my dad go through so many problems and fights and things like that, whether he's been threatened to be shot, his house blown up, ran over, shot, stabbed, every possible thing you can imagine, jailed twice.

[128] So, yeah, I just wanted to impress him.

[129] So the first step was working on the door with him.

[130] Well, no, the first step was going into the boxing gym.

[131] That was the first step.

[132] Once I found out, he couldn't progress any further with his boxing.

[133] I thought, okay, I'll show you, I can.

[134] I'll have a go.

[135] and it started off as just a bit of a macho thing I'll show you this, I'll show you that because ultimately I didn't really want to box I wanted to play football I'd do it in football club and I wanted to be a professional footballer but that's just a pipe dream but at the ages of 12 to 16 you think you can do it and I was a big believer in my own beliefs so I thought if I work hard enough I can do I've always synchronised working hard with getting to the end goal I'll get there no matter how hard is or how big the task looks if I work hard enough I'll get there but that just wasn't the case with football unlucky for me but with boxing I always watched it with my dad from afar I wasn't its biggest fan but I studied and watched because I was intrigued by and then upon finding out my dad couldn't stick at it and do it I thought it was okay I'll have a go with this and I was just insanely good at punching people and that was from an early age I knew just straight away he took me on pads I kickboxed her first got to a good level at that good standard and then knocked a couple of opponents out with punches in the face but i was only a kid at this age that shouldn't happen dropped one and flattened the other one uh got disqualify for both contests because it was supposed to be semi -contact you supposed to tap each other for a point and then point for you you go away let's fight again point for you and you get to like 11 points and you've won i think it was 11 points and uh upon knocking people out with punches it was like oh you can't do this and at this stage it was my father who taught me how to punch you showed me the correct way of i was turn your fist over.

[136] I was to exchange you, by the way, from the end of your foot to the end of your fist and at 12, 13 years old that's a powerful tool to show a kid.

[137] But I seen how proud he was the minute I knocked them kids out in the kickbox and even though I got disqualified and I lost and knocked these kids out with punches and he was extremely proud and I was like, oh, this is the way forward.

[138] And even though I didn't know that then mentally and subconsciously I've took that on board, seeing how much he's praised me, see how much he's given me for doing it.

[139] and I've thought that's the way so I keep flittering and messing around with that thought and then ultimately I end up in a boxing gym basically trying to impress me dad I'm not going to lie that to that was the first reasons for going into a boxing gym and how much a boxing gym and doing it knew dad had gone to jail twice you said the first time before I was born first time before you were born and then the second time when you were roughly around I think I was 14 15 14 14 15 yeah somewhere there are thereabouts.

[140] I'd have to go back in the years, but around roughly that age.

[141] What's that like when you find out that your father, someone you admire so much, is going to this place called jail where he's going to be locked?

[142] That's tough.

[143] When I found out what he'd done, I agreed with everything he'd done.

[144] So at this age now, it's right.

[145] So someone stole his money.

[146] So me, at this stage, my dad owns a pub.

[147] He's, I say, he's running a security firm.

[148] He's got a pub on the side.

[149] he's got his other job with deprivation he's got so many things going on and this pub I think the guy stole 10 ,000 pounds out of the safe the manager he was employing to manage took 10 ,000 pounds out of the safe and went running with his money so my father picked him up took him, kidnapped him whatever they done and demand, phoned his home and demanded his money back and that was told a no so he makes another phone call leaves a voicemail unbelievable leaves a voicemail of what will happen if he doesn't get his 10 ,000 pounds and that voicemail sends him to prison so yeah if someone stole 10 ,000 pound from me I'm not leaving a voicemail like but you know no one's taking my kid's money so and I know I get these these thing goes from him so you know no one can steal from me and take your child's money because I don't look at my money as being my money anymore.

[150] I look at it, it's the kids, and I'm pretty sure that's how he looked at is.

[151] So, yeah, he done what he done, and then he goes off, and I go and visit him, and that's when I think another pivotal moment in my life, going to visit my dad in the big house is very, very tough, but sticks with me once again.

[152] It's a part of my life where I think to myself, wow, I can never come here.

[153] He tells me the most important, one of the most important phrase he ever told me in life.

[154] I'm sitting with him, and I'm on a visit another.

[155] His partner, he's a partner who's takes me out to the visit, it takes me there, and he says to me, you see, a lot of people glorify jail.

[156] You see lads in there, like, I've done jail, I've done this, I've done that.

[157] My father was the only person I've seen say what he said to me, and I've never seen it said since.

[158] I've got friends who are in jail, I've grown up with lads from jail and stuff like that.

[159] So, and he says to me, son, don't ever come here.

[160] And I said, I'm not going to, they said, because you see this place, it's the house of failure.

[161] everyone in here has failed there's no winners in here there's no great people in here if you're in here you've failed and it's sat with me forever just it's always sat with me so there's various things that I've done that I'm not proud of there's various things that if I would have been caught for it would have been in jail but it didn't and at the same time I'm very grateful for the words that he said because they stuck with me forever I actually have got friends doing life I've seen friends, you know, being in jail for long periods of time.

[162] I've visited a friend Mugge recently and we speak to him and I told him the phrase my dad said and this friend of mine has done a long time in jail and he said to me your dad was spot on and he's sitting there, he's done nearly 16 years he's getting out soon and that's what he said to me he said your dad is spot on, he couldn't be any more truthful and couldn't be phrased any better.

[163] said if you're in jail, you've failed.

[164] So no one should glorify jail, no one should put a badge of honour on it.

[165] There's not glories about sitting in a prison, so nothing at all.

[166] But I'm not stupid enough to think that that couldn't have been me. Could have been me with the cards and dealt.

[167] Could have very, very easily been me. I'm just very fortunate that it didn't happen to me. When your amateur boxing career starts, are you still being tempted by those kind of temptations?

[168] You talk a little bit about that and hear...

[169] Yeah, street life.

[170] Street life?

[171] Yeah, definitely.

[172] There's no other way to earn.

[173] I've got no qualifications.

[174] I've been expelled from school.

[175] For fighting, right?

[176] Yep, for fighting, for smashing someone's face in.

[177] But while he was stabbing me in the head of the compass, so yeah, it's...

[178] But this is the life that, you know, you just...

[179] It's looked at as normal.

[180] I know when you look back now, it's frightening to think that, like, if someone stabbed my son in the head of the compass, wow, it's truly frightening, but it didn't deter me or bother me at all.

[181] Crazy.

[182] Like I walked out to and watched them hold the compass And I knew I only had fists But it didn't It didn't intimidate me, didn't scare me And yeah When you get expelled from school at 15 What do you think you're going to become in your life Is it were you still thinking You might, like 15 What's the hope?

[183] Yeah, someone said what are you going to be When you grow up, what would the response have been At 15 after getting kicked out Locked up You thought that's what help was going to play out for you Yeah, because I know wanted nice things At the age of 15 16 I always know wanted nice things nicer things.

[184] And I just, at that stage, especially being ex -12 from school, I had no idea I was going to get them.

[185] Why did you want nice things?

[186] Because I read throughout your story about these nice things.

[187] You just want nice things.

[188] You just want.

[189] So the nice things that I looked at was like, as a kid, the only, I can't believe I wear it, so I've got a gold chain, I bought this chain.

[190] Now, the only reason I have this is because I wanted that as a child and I've never grown up.

[191] It's the one thing I wants to thought, right?

[192] If I can get that, I've cracked it.

[193] I don't wear a chain out on me, on my top and show this and all that.

[194] That's not me now.

[195] But as a kid growing up, I thought that was going to be me. The chain out and the cross and the diamonds, you know you've grown up in similar environments and that's what you want.

[196] But I get it because in my mind, I think I've got the things I wanted, but I've worked hard and I've done it the right way.

[197] I did have it in me where I was thinking, I'll do it the wrong way as well.

[198] And that's once again where it's such upon being a product of your environment because everybody else is doing it.

[199] Any other else who had nice things where I'm from, everyone was selling drugs.

[200] There's no other way to get nice things.

[201] No one where I'm from.

[202] I didn't ever see a doctor where I'm from.

[203] I didn't see a solicitor where I live.

[204] I mean, the first time I found that what a solicitor was, it was because a lorry crashed into our bus on our way to school.

[205] My mother took me to meet him.

[206] The only reason that's out of the only way I found out what a solicitor was.

[207] Isn't that so crazy?

[208] It tells you so much about what's wrong with society.

[209] Society, right?

[210] Why are?

[211] Liverland, high school?

[212] Liverland school in Liverpool?

[213] I know where it is but I didn't live anywhere in India I went to a place called Chill Bowl Comp I went undercover in Litherland as a teacher Did you really?

[214] For a TV show So Litherland's school That's a predominantly white area Yeah It's the north end Is it a rough area because it felt It's not rough Is it north?

[215] Litherland's actually nice Really?

[216] It's a nice part of Liverpool You would say Litherland's really nice Really?

[217] Yeah There's really really They were like the lowest ranked On Offstead or whatever But I remember a kid there in the school Steve I went to his house But he thinks I'm a teacher And he goes, he goes, I think I want to be a millionaire when I grow up, but there's just no millionaires around here.

[218] I've never met any.

[219] And he goes, he goes, it's hard to be something in that you can't see.

[220] And I always remember him saying that.

[221] Again, that speaks to much of the problem in society where those kids don't have role models.

[222] So they can only aspire to, and it's a big part of the show we did, the, what do they call it, the networks of people getting young kids from schools to deal drugs?

[223] I can't know the bloody name of it.

[224] But so what ends up happening is these adults from out of town message these kids from Liverpool on Instagram and say, listen, you can make some 50 quidd if you just move these drugs for me and then they end up going through that path, which...

[225] The cycle of deprivation.

[226] Yeah.

[227] And that's how it starts.

[228] But you also have to understand that in them areas, like I've just touched on, no one was coming from my area and was going to be, like, it's only since I've grown up and I've realized.

[229] So three of us got expelled from school.

[230] there was me, Tinker and Walker three of us were permanently expelled now them three people me Tinker and Walker Tinker is one of the lead professors in Leeds University was expelled the same as me Warks is one of the best journalist in the whole of the country for sports this boy knows everything about football boxing the only reason he knows everything about boxing is because the dope didn't like the fact that I knew more about boxing than him so he started studying boxing which is insane and then there's me And we're, I say, with best friends we grew up there was Neil, there was Danzy, he was a footballer, he was set out from the start, he was amazing, he was always going to be a football, he was just unbelievably gifted.

[231] So between the four of us there, growing up within two miles of each other, no one from them areas I'd ever seen before, or heard of before me, I'd ever come a professor, an amazing journalist, a professional footballer, and then a professional fighter, world champion.

[232] and we were four lads who all went to school together the closest to friends and that's just four out about the eight of us the others have good jobs and stuff like that and they've cracked on with it just fine and they'll figure out the way in life but yeah that wasn't available to us as kids because as I say if I could tell you what that professor was doing now as 15 you wouldn't believe me if I could tell you what the 16 year old was doing and what was going on as the jailant you wouldn't believe it it's only the football out of us that I could say he was the goal we all aspired to be as kids because he was so driven Neil was just he'd work so hard when every spare minutes he got he was kicking a ball against the wall he was training he was working he was playing for Liverpool he was just unbelievably gifted but worked so hard with the talent that he had whereas others didn't and as I say for me growing up it was like everyone who had nice things was selling drugs and that's all you you could really see because if I had seen a footballer from where I'm from if I had a seen a professional world champion boxer or had a seen a really educated thinking of a man living where I was then I might have thought I can do that but you don't you just don't see so I go to schools to these sometimes now and I try and talk to these kids and explain to them I don't feel comfortable going to places so I got invited to Oxford and Cambridge and I didn't go I said no and I just said I don't feel what am going And then I say to people who've got brains, the size of theirs.

[233] And they were like, they understand it's not about the brain.

[234] It's what you've tapped into up here yourself to make work for you.

[235] I said, yeah, but I can't.

[236] I'm not comfortable going, so I'm not going.

[237] But I can walk into any school where I'm from and have a chat to them kids because I am them kids.

[238] I've been where they've been.

[239] I can relate to them.

[240] And I just need to get across to them.

[241] So I do that now with the program they're doing with the weapons down, gloves up.

[242] A certain amount of it's in the book.

[243] But ultimately, it's just a, It's hard to get across to the kids in the areas that I'm from.

[244] It really is, because there is no way out.

[245] And I understand there's no way out, because I was there.

[246] I was where you once was with no way out, with no hope, no job.

[247] It's expelled from school, and you just think, what am I going to do?

[248] So, yeah, it's tough, difficult.

[249] We talked a little bit about your father there.

[250] The other man in your life that you referred to as being a father figure is in Chapter 2, which is Jimmy.

[251] Yes, what a guy.

[252] Who is your, I believe, your amateur coach?

[253] Yes, he was.

[254] You know, it's so blatantly obvious from reading chapter.

[255] chapter two that he had a profound influence on you.

[256] Definitely in the short space on time I was around him and with him, I just, I got him.

[257] And the very first time I met him, I thought, it's never going to work.

[258] So the very first time I met him, he basically just shrugged me off and thought, I'm not going to, he obviously seen a town.

[259] So I walked in, before I actually had an amateur about, I walked in the Ritz under ABC.

[260] And I started punching a bag.

[261] This had been the second gym I tried out.

[262] So I went in this gym And he punched a bag And he comes over, he says Have you ever boxed before?

[263] I said, no, I've never boxed He said, don't tell lies He said, how many bouts have you had?

[264] I said, I've never had a bouts in my life He said, kids who have never had a bout Don't hit a bag like you How many bouts have you had?

[265] I said, I've had no bouts.

[266] I said, but when can I have a bout?

[267] To that smart -ass comment from me He replied, you don't tell me, boy, when you're going to box, I tell you.

[268] He said, about 12 to 18 months And I was like, okay, yeah, walked out of the gym, came back.

[269] I went and went straight to a place called Stockbridge, ABC.

[270] That's a guy called Mark Kinney.

[271] Six weeks later, I have my first amateur boat and they're all hell breaks loose and I just think then I'm the Waverte's version of Mike Tyson.

[272] I'm smashing people.

[273] You have to understand when you first have amateur about, very rarely, very really you'll see a stoppage.

[274] My first three amateur fights all ended in knockout wins and you just don't see that.

[275] Usually a lot of amateur fighters lose the first fight through nerves and anxiety and just being petrified.

[276] It's normal.

[277] I've only ever been nervous for two fights in my whole entire life, the very first ever amateur fight I had, and then Goodison Park.

[278] So I've never been nervous for any other fight.

[279] The fighting doesn't bother me. I enjoy, like I said before.

[280] So I guess to a point, I get disqualified, my temper flares in one in the last bout to have a stock with JBC.

[281] Guy spit to me face, I bought him as hard as I can in the middle of the face.

[282] Referee throws me out.

[283] I then go back to Rotunda.

[284] This time I've now had four or five bouts four bouts I go back to return with my tail between my legs I go back to Jimmy Albertina after I'm telling me it's going to be 12, 18 months this guy now knows who I am he's seen me box he's seen me fight and he's identified me as a talent I didn't know that I'm only told that later on in life because he never ever gave me an ounce of credit he never once praised me not to my face anyway it was only upon him dying that I found out that he thought I was going to be a champion so which is crazy to think that he could see that because I couldn't see it at that stage but being with him and spending time with him he made me believe in him so much and a part of it was because he pushed me to levels of work rate that I'd never seen before that I never thought I was capable of though how hard we worked in that gym under his tutelage was as hard as any day that I've had as a professional it was really tough it would demand only the best from you and I don't know how he's seen the things he's seen but he did the cat was a genius it was unbelievable So yeah, losing him was the first real loss ever had in my life.

[285] I'd lost at this stage, I think I'd lost, I'd definitely lost my uncle at that stage, which was a bit heartbreaking.

[286] He was my dad's previous partner in the business, and losing my uncle, Jimmy, was hard.

[287] But I could deal with it.

[288] It was a progression, he got cancer and he got slowly, slowly died and went away.

[289] So that was a bit hard to lose him.

[290] but the first real tragic, the last night was Jimmy.

[291] That was hard.

[292] Grief is the worst feeling in the world.

[293] It's the worst thing ever.

[294] Do you remember where you were when you got that call?

[295] Yep.

[296] Paul Smith phoned me. I was there.

[297] Paul phoned me and I was just sitting there and he was sobbing on the phone.

[298] I said, whoa, whoa, what's wrong?

[299] Where are you?

[300] And he was just crying on the fire.

[301] I couldn't understand what he was saying.

[302] And then I got the last word.

[303] He said, Jimmy's dead.

[304] I said, don't be stupid.

[305] I was with him two days ago.

[306] because Jimmy had a quadruple bypass and he gets the quadruble bypass and he just comes back too soon he started training again and he had a bevy and like pizza and food Jimmy was just a proper man's man and yet he came back too soon so when Paul phones me and tells me that Jimmy's gone I just couldn't believe it remember just breaking down crying taking another car again with no licence and driving straight to the gym the top Jimmy gave me I remember sitting at the gym just crying and crying, I'm thinking what are we going to do?

[307] And as selfish as I am, thinking what's going to happen to my career?

[308] Because at that stage then, being with Jimmy, I then knew I was going to be a fighter forever.

[309] Once I had two or three bouts.

[310] I won my first national championships in Jimmy was in my corner.

[311] I fight in the under 10 novice finals.

[312] I fight against the guy with a same name, Muhammad.

[313] He wins a semi -final 10 -0.

[314] I go in and knock him unconscious six seconds in the final to win my first ever national title.

[315] and under 10 novice title cleaned them out in six seconds still a record isn't it still a record to this day and yeah it's at that point then I'm going to make me I'm going to make it as a fighter after that national final victory and I remember running back the corner to Jimmy and jumping on the ropes and saying I am the fucking best fighter you lot will ever see in here I was in not only sports entering in Leeds telling everyone I am the king of the world I am the best ever now this is just so embarrassing when I look back.

[316] This is a guy who was in his 10th amateur fight.

[317] And I was telling people I'm going to be a world champion.

[318] And they must have been like what's going on.

[319] Gets jumps down from the guy I've just rendered unconscious and he's still asleep.

[320] I've jumped down off his corner of the ropes after screaming my head off.

[321] I walk back to my corner and I said to Jimmy, how good was that?

[322] It was amazing, wasn't it?

[323] And he just looked at him and went to fucking shite.

[324] I thought, just knocked someone out and six.

[325] seconds and his response was fucking shite lone behold he turns away to the other coach and just goes and just does a face with a little thumb up I didn't see that once again you'd have to look back on the video and see him do it he never gave me praise but then from where he told other people like Jimmy when Jimmy died he got carried by six of us past champions forums present champions Paul Smith and Mick I'm future champions who are regarded as the future of the gym myself and Paul and I was a future one bear in mind I'd only be involved him at this stage for two years and he probably predict that was going to be a future champion so for them to predict that and say unbelievable he'll stick with me forever I have his name tattooed on my arm yeah so all my tattoos means something so yeah it's miss him every single day not many days go by where I don't think of him Yeah, I'm close with his family and I love his lovely wife, Bernie and his kids, Michael and James and lovely family.

[326] They've now got kids and Jimmy's affected so many people's lives.

[327] Massive, massive part of mine.

[328] I will never, ever forget him and I will never let his name go.

[329] You know, whenever I am, I will always take his name with me. And then you go on and do exactly that.

[330] What Jimmy predicted you would do?

[331] Yeah, which is crazy, I think.

[332] I'd be winning an ABA title.

[333] Well, I won three of them.

[334] I don't know if he predicted three, but I win three ABA titles, a box for my country, go all around the world.

[335] I have amazing success as an amateur, bear in mind that I've not got the style to be a good amateur boxer.

[336] My style was to render people unconscious.

[337] I've never got in a boxing ring and wanted to beat someone on points, ever.

[338] Well, that's a lie.

[339] One time I did.

[340] I got in the ring against the guy called Danny Price, and I really liked Danny.

[341] I didn't want to hurt him.

[342] The only time I've ever got into a fight and didn't want to hurt someone.

[343] And yeah.

[344] when in the end I just I've never Amateur boxing is about skill and class and it's a proper sport professional boxing is a brutal horrible business it's not a sport it's literally a way of life you don't live professional boxing the way it needs to be lived you will get found out every single time and it will leave you in a bad way amateur boxing was a beautiful sport I was part of a team I was in Rotunda ABC I had great amazing team mate to have amazing coaches understand that these coaches in these amateur gyms they aren't there for money because there's no money in it for them they're there for the love of the sport and to help kids that gym has saved more lives than anywhere I've ever been in my life every boxing gym does how much a gym and people use this and they use the phrase oh this thing saves life it literally does it saved mine it saved numerous lads I know in that gym's lives there's numerous lads there who have been to jail numerous lads who have been there who have been shot stabbed, I've shot and stabbed people.

[345] And that boxing gym has kept them on the straight and narrow.

[346] Like there's so many wars that have gone on in and around that gym.

[347] But when you went to that gym, that was the safest place in the world because no one would come in that gym and do anything to anyone because that was the safety that when you went in a boxing gym.

[348] And that was because of the respect you had for someone like Jimmy.

[349] And that's what he demands.

[350] That's what saves areas.

[351] It's literally you're policing your own neighbourhood.

[352] Something that has completely gone in today's environment.

[353] no one cares no more like there is no hierarchy within a criminal environment there is no hierarchy on the street no more because every kid is out for himself they do not care that boxing gym demands respect and no matter who you are or what you've got you give that respect to that boxing gym so jim it was a massive massive part of that and yet we were very fortunate as all of us to have him without a mate it would have changed so many fighters lives in that place and in that community as well i don't it's not an understatement when i say saved lives, he literally did.

[354] You said that the coaches that aren't there to make money, but a lot of the fighters don't ever make good money unless they get up near the top of the sport, right?

[355] And I was actually really surprised to hear in one of the conversations you had where you said you hadn't even become a millionaire until pretty late into your career.

[356] Yeah, I'd become a millionaire until a beef felled up called David A. Yeah, when you think about what you're doing for a living, you're smashing your head up, you're smashing other people's faces up.

[357] Yeah.

[358] And it wasn't until you thought David Hay, which was in 2017, right?

[359] where you became a millionaire.

[360] I remember that fight so clearly.

[361] I remember, I think, I have suspicion I stayed up front.

[362] I don't know why I think I stayed up for it, but it must have been somewhere in the world.

[363] But I remember watching that fight so clearly and how it played out.

[364] I remember every round and the twists and turns and the emotions surrounding it all.

[365] That was madness.

[366] Madness.

[367] Crazy.

[368] I've basically been fighting as a professional all my life at that stage.

[369] I've been fighting as a boxing all my life.

[370] And bear in mind, when I go into the ring games, David Hay, I'm British, Commonwealth, European, world champion.

[371] I've achieved everything I possibly can with in boxing.

[372] I'm still not a millionaire.

[373] I'm topping bills.

[374] I've fought at the Everton's football stadium, Goodison Park.

[375] I've defended my world title at the Echo Riosk.

[376] You know, I've sold out multiple venues at this point.

[377] I've fought on Skybox office multiple times at this stage.

[378] And it wasn't because you were spunking your money at all.

[379] You aren't blowing your money.

[380] I'm very wise with my money.

[381] I was at this stage, after I've won the world title, And before I fight David Hay, I don't own my house outright, yeah.

[382] I've got property, one property that I rent out my first house.

[383] After that, I've got the second property that I've got a mortgage on.

[384] That's all I have to my name at that stage in life.

[385] Why?

[386] How does that happen?

[387] Because that's boxing for you.

[388] Is it boxing?

[389] Yeah.

[390] Really, that's boxing for you.

[391] That's professional fighting.

[392] Unless you turn professional with a gold medal, then ain't no money at the start.

[393] And you've got a bank.

[394] How good do you really believe you are?

[395] How much do you really believe in yourself?

[396] Because you've got to back yourself all the way.

[397] So, you know, after five professional fights in my hand, my left hand, third knuckle here, snaps and off.

[398] In the fifth fight in my career.

[399] So I'll get an operation on and off.

[400] The best surgeon in the world is named Mike Hayton.

[401] And I didn't even have enough money to pay for the operation.

[402] Because I fought in the December, I snapped my hand in half.

[403] My middle knuckle here, this snaps in half.

[404] and then I spend all of the £6 ,000 that I've just earned to give the kids the best Christmas that he can possibly have.

[405] On January the 11th, I'm skinted, I haven't got a single penny in the bank.

[406] I've got a mortgage to pay, I've got kids to provide for.

[407] But everyone thinks from the outside, I'm this budding professional, and I've got loads of money because I've got a new car and whatever have you at this stage.

[408] I'm still living in my terrace house and old swan in Liverpool, but from the outside looking at, he's on TV.

[409] He's fighting.

[410] if I'd said to people I earn 6 ,000 pound a fight of X amount to lose to the promoter X amount to lose to the manager X amount to lose to the trainer I'm breaking even I'm lucky if I'm getting out with four grand three and a half I'm lucky after I paid the cut man all the expenses in training very lucky if you get out with that you definitely don't clear it because don't forget she wants her cuts as well the queen HMRC so you know yeah So very, very tough.

[411] So then you have to do extracurricular activities to try and earn some more money and provide food on the table for your kids.

[412] So it's very, very, but I couldn't explain.

[413] I know what it's like to be skinned.

[414] I know what it's like not to have a penny.

[415] I've felt financial pressure.

[416] It's a frightening and frightening thing, and I understand why people do the things they do.

[417] No one can tell me nothing about being skinned or whatever.

[418] People say to me now, you would know what it's like to be skinned.

[419] Yes, I would.

[420] I know what's like to be skinned with two kids as well.

[421] So it's petrified.

[422] so you figure a way out and you get through it and say all of them achievements that I've done and had it was all of the just to maintain that dream of one day becoming a world champion the frightening part is imagine getting to that point in life becoming world champion all that and then thinking my wife then says to me and she's not my wife at the time she's still my birth well she'll always be my birth and saying to her she comes down I win the world title of Goodison Park on a bank holiday Sunday, 29th of May 2016.

[423] Yeah, I might as well show you there as well.

[424] That's the belt of win.

[425] From Goodison.

[426] The Goodison Park, that's the belt of win.

[427] I watched that.

[428] Great fight.

[429] Thank you.

[430] I watched it earlier on as well.

[431] Thank you.

[432] So 29th of May 2016, I've completed the game.

[433] I've completed the story.

[434] I'm someone in life who's, I've seen through me lifelong dream.

[435] My dream in life was to fight to Goodersen Park.

[436] You know, that was the best I was ever going to achieve.

[437] The WBC title at Goodison Park I've lived, I've seen me dream through but I wake up on Monday Well that's a lie I didn't wake up I didn't sleep so I goes down the kitchen On Monday morning bank holiday Monday And my missus comes down And she says to me That's it now you've done it It's time to stop And I'm like Yeah I've achieved everything I set out to do And yeah it's gone well I said but girl was so financially far from security that I've got to keep going at this stage she now understands because she used to think boxing was a game she used to think like as an amateur she didn't even recognise it was she was like you've got head guards on it's it's not even boxing it's just it's basically it's a game of tick and I was like fuck say girl if you only knew we put a headguard on you and give you a jab you'll soon have a fucking different opinion but she's a she soon learned she soon learned how I used to brutalize my body cannibalize my own body there'd be times when I'd come home from training and not even remember where I've been concussion that I'd have there's fight nights that I've had that I can't remember anything I've turned up to arena's had a 12 round fight come home and not even known I've had a fight I've been I've lost weeks at a time with my mind because I've been diet and so hard my body's just gone into complete overdrive I've drove home from Sheffield multiple occasions and not remember the single thing of how I've got home and drove I've been on autopilot and that's just that's training camp that's life.

[438] So she starts to understand it, how dangerous and real it was as time went on.

[439] So once I've won the world title, she's like, you need to stop now.

[440] It's time to just be a dad.

[441] And I'm like, no, it's not.

[442] You know, I've got to financially secure us.

[443] So then I made the audacious thing to target a man with a pound sign on his head.

[444] And the man who had that pound sign on his head was David Hay.

[445] The way I looked at day, I knew David from way back from Sparden many years ago when he paid me. If you've ever seen the program Reddwarf, Remember H?

[446] Well, David had a pound sign on his head like H had them red dwarf to me but no one else could see it it was just me added to the fact I knew I could beat him I always knew because I sparred him 10, 15 years previously after I won that first ABA title I'm talking to you about David hired me as a sparring partner for one day and I'd never ever been it's still to this day it's the hardest I've ever been hit he hit me so hard with 16 ounce gloves on the headguard it made me back leg kick out like a donkey out in nowhere and it always stuck with me but I took it I didn't go down I should have went down I still don't notice this day how I didn't but I took it said to him good shot and I always remember the look in his face of how the fuck are you still standing and that look and then me being able to go at him and put it on him stuck with me forever and then me dropping him later on in the sparring session let me know even though he said he should have given me a thousand pound David you'll always owe me that thousand pound if you drop David you got a thousand pound and cash off Adam Booth as coach at the time.

[447] I didn't get it because he said it was his leg.

[448] He had a hamstring problem, that's why he went down.

[449] Absolute bollocks.

[450] I put him down on one knee.

[451] He still owes me a grand.

[452] But, yeah, I knew.

[453] I actually knew after that sparring session, I'm going to fight this man later in my career.

[454] I told David Price on the day, me and David Price sparring that day, he was getting ready to fight Mark Hobson, and I said to David Price after that sparring session, I'm going to fight him one day.

[455] David Price has been on him as well, didn't he?

[456] Yeah.

[457] and David said David said What are you on about?

[458] Pricey said to me I said I'm telling you one day I'm going to fight that man and I chased him me whole career I knew one day I'd get to him one day and our paths would cross I just don't ask me why I know that I don't know how I know it I just knew one day I'd fight him that conversation at the kitchen table with Rachel are you telling her at that point after you've won that title that David Hayes next and that it'll make money I didn't tell her he was next I told her, my career is now all about money.

[459] It's no longer about my selfish needs and wanting to become world champion.

[460] She knows I can be the most selfish bastard in the world and I've done it numerous times to her in life.

[461] I've just fucked off.

[462] Listen, when my brother died, I left and I fucked off to training camp.

[463] I'm the most selfish bastard you could meet.

[464] It's disgusting when I look back at it.

[465] But that's me. So I'm not that anymore.

[466] I'm a different person than I was then.

[467] I change all the time.

[468] And I'd like to think I'm not changing, I'm evolving.

[469] I'm getting better.

[470] I'm learning from me mistakes.

[471] But back in the day when I was fighting, I would just pack up and leave.

[472] So, you know, I went through the worst time in me whole entire life at that stage and I just packed up and fucked off.

[473] So I can do that.

[474] When we lost Rachel's brother Ashley, that was the worst time of me whole entire life.

[475] So this was after you've beaten David?

[476] That was after the first time I'd beat him.

[477] But yeah, I can just pack up and just get a goal.

[478] And then that was because, you know, why?

[479] Because I've got a job to do.

[480] And when I was fighting, it was a job.

[481] and it was only until I achieved my goals of becoming world champion that I then, it was a dream before I was world champion I was chasing a dream and a goal when that goal was achieved I actually thought I'll leave boxing alone or I didn't think I'd give it 100 % when I became financially secure I then realised it wasn't the dream it wasn't the money that I was chasing I need something to drive me in life I've only realised that since I retired So yeah.

[482] Do you remember that feeling of looking at your bank account after that first David Hayfight and thinking I'm a multi -millionaire now and how, like what was the feeling?

[483] The idea I'm phoned me so I've been waiting for about eight weeks maybe in longer might have been 12 weeks for the box office money to come through but at this stage I already know in my mind in the back I've now completely relaxed I've beat David I've had the crazy results.

[484] I've now crossed over as well.

[485] I'm now a public figure.

[486] Like, as a world champion, yeah, I was known.

[487] I'd even done a Rocky movie for fuck sake before this.

[488] So I crossed over to a different kind of set up group of people.

[489] I crossed over to your average person, so your grandmothers knew me at this stage.

[490] Things like that.

[491] That's when you start, fame really kicks in.

[492] But after beating David, it's now gone to another level because David's a crossover star.

[493] David's a great -looking kid.

[494] he's fucking David hay he takes his top off he looks a million dollars he's he's David and he's just he's the king of the world when I beat him it goes absolutely insane and I'm living now in a different world but I ain't got the money to be living the way I'd like to live right now I've got enough of me accounts the business has gone well at this stage in time now after beating David I've got enough to start buying properties and building up our property portfolio for the family and the kids something I'd always planned on doing but when Eddie phones me three months later and he goes tomorrow I'm just giving you the call the box office money's landed he said and tomorrow you're going to look in your bank and you're a multi -millionaire congratulations if anyone deserves it it's you me and Eddie have a backstory and it's mad to think that I could have walked away from Eddie I didn't have no I've never had a contract with Eddie in I'm probably one of I'm probably the highest profile fighter he's had who's made him the most money who's never had a signed contract with ever and we dealt on a hand cheek bear in mind I was a world champion with no deal in place I was hot property after Goodison Park Victory the way I'd done it and the way I executed it it was perfect I then defend me world title and I smashed some guy called BJ Flores like no one's ever done him before I get rid of him and then I get a phone call offering me £1 .6 million to fight David Hay on BT box office and I say no and Eddie tells me on the phone and says I can't offer you that money you've got to take it and I said I'm not going to take it I said we shook hands and we're going to see this through he says to me I can't give you that money I ain't got that kind of money to give you right now I said I know he wants to fight me now he's going to deal with you because David didn't want to deal with Eddie he didn't like Eddie and yeah so loyalty means just as much to me as well but getting to that stage in my life was very, very difficult.

[495] I can't explain to you how hard it was.

[496] I'm believing in yourself, backing yourself.

[497] When that phone call came in, and at this stage, I've got a few hundred grand.

[498] I've got a right few hundred grand.

[499] It's clear they've paid me taxes.

[500] I've done stuff like that.

[501] But at the time, it's in a company.

[502] So I'm not really, it's all good.

[503] You can be a multi -millionaire, but it's stuck in a company.

[504] You mean a millionaire.

[505] Until you got that money, personally and the taxes paid, it's in your bank, is very, very hard to do, that's when you're a multimillionaire.

[506] So I had to wait a long time to get to that stage.

[507] But thankfully enough, I dared to carry don't believing in myself.

[508] And I showed that I can be loyal even when tested at the most difficult time.

[509] Because you can imagine when I've got that phone call at night and this man's off me, 1 .6 million pounds and says to me, I know you don't trust where this money's coming from, but I can have it at your front door tomorrow.

[510] This man says to me, I can have it at your front door.

[511] And believe you me, this man could.

[512] I have 1 .6 million pounds in a suitcase at my front door the next day.

[513] And I say no to it.

[514] And at this time, I've got a wife who's listening to this phone call with me. And she's saying, you better have a fucking good plan or you're going out this door.

[515] Because at this stage now, I've got three kids.

[516] And I've just knocked back 1 .6 million pound.

[517] And I'm basically worth 480 grand.

[518] And that's in a company, by the way, as well.

[519] and they should have me 1 .6 million.

[520] It just quadruples my net worth.

[521] So, and I knock it back.

[522] I said this there still can't believe.

[523] I had the audacity to do it, but I mean, that handshake means something.

[524] So we do it, we agree a deal.

[525] When the money comes in the bank, I'm not going to lie.

[526] It was, what's it called, when something is...

[527] Anti -climax?

[528] Yeah, I've seen it.

[529] And I had to actually go to a cash machine to say, I had online access and I could have done it that way but I didn't so I wanted to go into question put the digits in and look at the numbers so yeah I want to see the actual the zeros on the thing and see what it looked like and it was over that's a word I'm looking for it just didn't no that's when I realised it wasn't about money I just thought this is not all it's made out to be nothing's changed me as a person nothing's changed in my life I've still got three hungry kids.

[530] I've still got a Wi -Fi door.

[531] Yeah, nothing really changes.

[532] You know how it feels.

[533] Yeah, I know.

[534] I remember this.

[535] I had the same anti -climax feeling I've talked about on this podcast a million times of if this wasn't it, Steve, this is what we thought we were aiming for?

[536] And if this isn't it, then what the fuck is it?

[537] And why was I doing all this stuff for?

[538] You know, why was I working hard and being obsessed?

[539] It makes me question.

[540] Why do I keep doing what?

[541] Why do I want to keep earning?

[542] I think now I want to keep earning for the sake.

[543] of I'm trying to pass it on.

[544] I tell myself that as well, but I think the insecure kid never dies in you.

[545] I think the kid, I know it's still in me now.

[546] I say to myself now, well, I just need to get to nine figures in my bank account.

[547] And I go, why?

[548] Like, who do I need to show off to?

[549] I don't need to show.

[550] So, but I's still in me. And then I have, I'd never really talk about this, but I have these little moments where I start looking at Lamborghinis again, just out of the blue, like four times a year.

[551] and then sometimes it overflows and I'll send it to like my manager there I'll go what do you think if I bought this range this Rolls Roy's or I send it to my girlfriend I go hi babe um what do you think she'll go what are you fucking I'm sorry it'll be like I woke up again like the kid took over the control room for a bit someone sent me a book and I've actually download I've got it on the audio book and I haven't done it is it the chimp paradox he sat here Steve Peas is the author I haven't read this and I haven't this to you but people have said to me you should really read it.

[552] Yeah, you should.

[553] And what you're saying to me, kind of, it's the inner chimp is it?

[554] Yeah, we all have it, inner chimp?

[555] The chimp brain, which is the kind of irrational, impulsive ego, it's where your anger and all of those things exist.

[556] Yeah, so I don't know why any.

[557] I've just been taught, I've got it on the audible because I don't really read the books no more actually looking at them, just listen to them.

[558] It's changed a lot of people's lives.

[559] I absorb it better, has it?

[560] Yeah, I only listen to audiobooks as well in, I actually downloaded your audiobook for 999.

[561] And then I was going between both of them.

[562] So I was going like, I'd read this and I'd read like chapter two And then I'd read it okay Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Because I always think I try and slow down If I'm talking to another scouts it, it's out of control No, it's always better when the author narrates it as well But yeah, you should read that book, Chimp Paradox If there's one book which honestly helps you understand yourself And you go, I wish someone had fucking told me this 20 years ago About my own brain, it's that with your relationships Why sometimes you argue with your wife how to get control of those emotional moments it's all about your chimp like taking over the brain and Steve Peters who's the author of the book who is like this brain scientist who travelled all the way down from somewhere at the top of the country just to sit here and tell me about the chimp thing genius that book my business partner is an alcoholic and had suicide ideation and didn't know what was out of control with him and he cites reading that book as the thing that made him change his life sober it's mad the way they've just brought that up because of the way you explain things yeah it's honestly really and I actually was reading the second so the author of the chimp paradox wrote like a second part to it and I was reading it last week in Bali because I was having a bit of me and my misses were arguing about something a little bit and so I went to the page about emotional control just to understand why we have these arguments where we just repeat ourselves on cycles yeah and it basically explains in there that the chimp part of your brain which is the front of your brain it will continue to do that until it feels heard so I put the close the book I went back downstairs to my missis and I went I I said to her, I said, just want to make sure that you, you understand, I completely heard what you're saying.

[563] And I repeated back to what she said, she completely just stopped.

[564] Because the minute the chimp part of your brain feels like it's understood, then it's completely pacified.

[565] But until then, it will just, da, da, da, da, da, da, do, do, do.

[566] You know when your misses, it's like, rah, right, right.

[567] Yeah, I know that one.

[568] So it's how to navigate life yourself and those around you.

[569] And it's all, the chimp part of our brain causes us a lot of problems, but...

[570] I've got to read this fucking book.

[571] Yeah, no, for sure.

[572] I've just done the biggest plug in the world for it.

[573] That is brilliant.

[574] One of the moments that you talked earlier about you becoming, you kind of crossed over after that David Hay fight, one of the things I will never forget is the raw emotion that came out of you after you won that fight.

[575] The first one on the second one.

[576] The second one, I believe.

[577] Yeah, that's when Ashley died.

[578] Because of Ashley's passing.

[579] Yes, that broke me to the core.

[580] Still does.

[581] Think about him every single day.

[582] Oh yeah, that shit's horrible.

[583] He was like a brother to you and he...

[584] Yeah, he's...

[585] Rachel's brother.

[586] So he's basically my brother.

[587] Rachel's brothers are my brothers.

[588] My brothers are their brothers.

[589] I've known Rachel since she was nine years old.

[590] So Ashley's 18 months younger than her, so I've known Ashley since bloody all.

[591] That makes him seven the first time I met him.

[592] Yeah, that was not nice, mate.

[593] And listen, don't get me wrong, it affects her sisters and her brothers and her mother and her father, far more than could possibly affect me. The part that affects me the most, I've tried me best to come to terms with losing ash.

[594] the part that gets me the most is how I see her my wife it just kills her to the core like you've got to understand that them two growing up 80 months apart he grows basically like twins so she adores him he adores here they fight the argue constantly as siblings and then one day he's here the next day he's just gone and he'd gone on holiday yeah he'd gone to be his best friend's best man He basically went to a wedding abroad in the most unruly country in the world, Mexico and just doesn't come home.

[595] So, yeah, petrifying, mate.

[596] I still remember that they getting the phone call and shit like that, yeah.

[597] Horrible, horrible time.

[598] But there's not much I can say that that hasn't already been said.

[599] It's just the worst time my life.

[600] It's something that I'll never truly understand.

[601] Never.

[602] That life could be so unfair?

[603] Yeah, there's just a kid who's innocent, a lovely, lovely lad.

[604] Do you know what, if I could swap place and what had happened to him, it happened to me, I could half say, well, he's seen his lifelong dream go through.

[605] He's lived his life and he's done some bad shit too, so I can kind of accept it if it was myself.

[606] I just can't accept such a kid like that who's just such a nice, fucking hell, just loved life, was happy, was always smiling always telling jokes the life of the party yeah it's completely unfair that's why I have the colour red and the A angel people think I'm some kind of baseball fan I couldn't give a shit about baseball but as people will know the red A on my arm is for Ashley and it's in red because he was a Madeleiple fan and followed them everywhere so people would think I absolutely hate red but I don't now I actually wear it with a bit of pride so yeah just so many things like the kid looked up to me me as well.

[607] So, yeah, hard, hard time.

[608] Losing him was the hardest thing that's ever happened in my life.

[609] Bear in mind, I've lost two grandparents, seeing people dying, lots of crazy scenarios, yeah, but nothing's ever affected me like that.

[610] That was worse than Jimmy.

[611] That was just fucking, just here one minute and gone the next.

[612] Yeah, gone.

[613] So, what can you do?

[614] you said that nearly impacted your relationship with Rachel as well yeah definitely definitely without a shadow without I mean I'd hope it brings us closer but I just don't think my wife will ever get over it well I know she won't I know she wants a little brother and especially when you haven't been given the answers that we should have been given and there's there is answers out there's people that could give us the answers but they won't so yeah very very hard I say my heart breaks for my wife and a sister and a brother and a mother and father especially a child a parent should never bury a child in any way shape or form that is their most harrow and frightening thing you could possibly imagine losing one of your children how did he got through it and how do you get through it I'll never know so yeah very hard I always always think of the selfish things I've done once again of just fucking off to camp after he died and just because I had to honour that rematch.

[615] I gave me word, I'd fight him again and I shouldn't have it's a regret but I found a way to get through it and never get through and got the job done.

[616] You regret giving him your word that you'd fight him or going.

[617] No, I'd go off going through with it.

[618] I should never have done it.

[619] It's selfish when I look back but that's me. I gave me word and when they give someone your word you've got it on to do you.

[620] When you say fucking off the camp is that like a form of escapism where you like the fucking off the camp becomes this distraction where you don't have to face the pain.

[621] The pain and the truth and bear in mind I'm definitely facing the pain because I just cry myself to sleep every night than I'm in Sheffield every night I cry myself to sleep but I know my wife's at home crying herself to sleep as well with my kids are with her oh yeah I do that for three months so I go to camp for 12 weeks at a time 14 weeks for that one because I knew I had to lose X amount of weight Yeah And you're alone in a hotel room crying Yeah Holiday and Express In Sheffield Me, the microwave and my iPad And me just sobbing Yeah I used to go the pitches once a week as well On my own And just sit there Sometimes I've cried in that pitch's on my own And I've just had a cap on my hood over And just cried watching films because I just it's my because I can deal with losing Ashley I can't deal with see my wife in pain that I can't change that's the worst part she's still in pain and she'll like she wouldn't speak to anyone about it she'll just bottle it up I don't one day she could come to terms but she can't I know she can't it's the worst feeling in the world man it's helpless so yeah it's tough in one of your interviews when you were talking about this you reference that phase of your life, I think, as being you feeling like you were depressed.

[622] Is that accurate?

[623] You felt depressed through that?

[624] If that's what depression feels, I don't want to tap on that kind of weird because I feel people use it these days to the benefit.

[625] I feel people abuse it.

[626] I feel like it's used today as a fucking traction part to gain traction or to...

[627] People actually aim from money from saying they're depressed.

[628] But if that's what depression was, yeah.

[629] Crying yourself to sleep.

[630] but not being able to solve a problem for the life of you, you don't know how to solve it.

[631] And, like, nothing made me happy.

[632] Nothing.

[633] Like, nothing.

[634] The only time I was ever happy is when I seen a smile, when I seen her smile, and that was very briefly in that period of time.

[635] Like, even now to this day, and look at her, no, she's thinking about her brother.

[636] Even now, we've been past, be five years in August.

[637] Yeah, four or five years in August.

[638] And I know, she's thinking about him but I just know but I can't change that and that's the saddest part because as a husband I should be able to do something about that but I can't you know that's the one thing if you're, I'm a husband and my partner I should be able to be there for it be the comfort blanket but I can't I can't change it so yeah that's hard it's tough you said you'd never spoken to anyone about it but have you spoken to anybody about it no I went on SIS and that's where I found out I was fucked up So going on that show Highlight, like I've never seen it back So I don't know what I've done What I've said, some of the things Conversations we had I don't know But at that point I knew I had a problem Because I went on that show thinking I've completed life I've seen through me lifelong dream I've done this and I've done that I've got what I set out to get I've fucking hell I'm financially secure my career is over I'm retired I'm supposed to just enjoy getting fat now and enjoy playing golf and it was on that show that I realised that I'm carrying the burden of what's gone on and I'm just constantly wanting to make my wife happy I'm trying to make sense of how I can fix my wife's situation that's what I found out on that show because I was just broken down gradually and to be fair to my Middleton it was his process that made me realise that it also made me realise what's important in life is as important as what's in the four walls of my house.

[639] Nothing matters.

[640] Nothing genuinely matters.

[641] I've got some great friends and I love them like brothers.

[642] I really do.

[643] But I'm sorry to say it doesn't matter.

[644] What matters is my missus and my kids.

[645] No one in this world actually needs me or depends on me to the amount that they need me. I put them kids on this planet.

[646] I've got to look after them.

[647] I've got to give them the best I possibly can.

[648] She's my wife.

[649] I've got to be the best I can possibly be for there.

[650] nothing else really matters not much and being on that show made me realize that my phone is just a fucking distraction I don't need to spend all day on my phone I spend too much time on it as it is but I'm trying to implement things now when I go home that phone doesn't need to be there I'm trying my best to just not to leave the phone alone in the house it's very hard to do by the way I'm sure you'll know that as well but I'm trying to implement things differently in my life and that show helped me see that definitely did At the start of this conversation you said when you're talking about your brother that you'd to survive you'd put this kind of protective wall around yourself and often when I sit here with Patrice Hever is a good example he grew up on the streets of France and he put this protective wall around himself his brother's a drug dealing their overdose and died in the house etc so he puts the shield around himself to try and survive and then it's not until his later years at like 30, 40 years old after he's retired in his afterlife, as you call it, in chapter 12, 11 of your book, that he realized that protective shield is actually, it's protected him from his early years, but now it's costing him as an adult.

[651] It's meaning that he's not able to properly connect on an emotional level.

[652] He's running from his pain.

[653] He's defensive.

[654] He's got a lot of anger.

[655] And so he goes on the journey thanks to his part.

[656] Now, when she turns to him one day and goes, you're not okay.

[657] And he goes, he gets angry.

[658] What do you mean?

[659] I'm not okay.

[660] And she says it again.

[661] She goes, you're not okay.

[662] What's wrong?

[663] And then in that moment, at four, 40 years old, he just lets it down.

[664] And he says everything from my head teacher abused me, sexually abused me at school, all of these things that happened in his childhood.

[665] But I was wondering when you said that to start the conversation, that shield you put up to help you to survive after you finish boxing, and I'm guessing it's not serving you.

[666] No, I don't.

[667] Well, it makes sense of Percy's ever now.

[668] I always saying I'm happy and stuff like that.

[669] He's actually fucking not.

[670] I get it.

[671] I understand this side.

[672] And I understand.

[673] But then I feel like I've, I've, I've given enough.

[674] There's certain parts I'll never give up.

[675] Right.

[676] I just won't because I wouldn't, I can give so much.

[677] I can't give everything.

[678] So I'll hope.

[679] And that could be pain, that could be torment, that could be shit that's gone on in my earlier life.

[680] I don't know, but I won't give everything.

[681] You say that on the show.

[682] You say, well, you actually say you'd never write a book.

[683] Yeah, yeah.

[684] I'd never see a psychologist and I'll never write a book because I don't want to go back there.

[685] Yeah, it's not that And I don't want to paint it out To be any worse than any of the kids Because it's not Get me wrong There's obviously some shit there But yeah, I just What's the point?

[686] I can't change the past So you won't speak about it?

[687] Yeah, what's the nothing to really speak about I just, just there is what it is It's been and gone, I can't change it So there's no point in discussion Like, I went to New York on the weekend And as I got to the airport I hear it a shit load of shit Just get to the airports I'm always early I'm never late for anything I arrived at the airport Get to the day they said they need to test So I said okay Well no one told me I need the test So okay let's Where do I do what I do Goes down to say to the first floor They've now I'm now half an hour away And I'm not checked in yet From my flight And I'm at the front of the queue sitting there waiting for the thing Goes downstairs Get to test done Okay now we've hit another problem There's a different name On your ticket than there is on your passport I said okay well sound I'm not in control of any of this young man comes over to me from Virgin and he says right you've got to be you're playing in 10 minutes and the gate's 15 minutes away I said okay sound he says to me can I just say something he said we get through this checkout bit and we used to put all your shit in the bag and stuff he said I've never seen anyone so calm you're going to miss a flight I said you want me to tell you something kid I said why am I going to get stressed out about things I can't change I have no impact I can't do anything to change if I start shouting and screaming and blaming the people who are involved in this it's not going to change the situation so why would I get worked up about it and he said wow that was amazing I've never seen anyone say that wish you could tell everyone who comes on Virgin Airlines that problem and I was like it's just a part of my life that I'm in now so I don't see the point in going backwards and talking about all stuff when I can only change what's in front of me and I can only change what's on my path by going back I'm only just going to lift the can of more pain and hurt or shit that I've done that's wrong.

[688] And to be fair, I think about enough of the wrong things I've done or enough of the bad things that have happened to me anyway.

[689] So I don't see what talking about them would solve.

[690] If I can just keep moving on and keep moving forward, I'll remain in a happy place.

[691] I try to remain in the happy place as much as I can.

[692] But life's difficult, you know.

[693] You know, people will look at you and think, you're a success story.

[694] They look at the money you've got.

[695] They look at the scenario and the setup you've got.

[696] but ultimately, are you happy?

[697] And that's all that matters.

[698] I don't care if you've got a pound in your bank or you've got a hundred million in your bank.

[699] Are you happy?

[700] And that's all that matters.

[701] So all is I'm trying to search for every day is that feeling of happy.

[702] Yes, I understand that it is in need for money.

[703] I'd be a fool if I said.

[704] I don't work for money.

[705] Of course I do.

[706] I've got to get what I'm worth.

[707] But at the same time, I'm a happy.

[708] Are you happy?

[709] Yes, with the life I've created, yes.

[710] do I feel it's complete no do I have unhappy days absolutely yes I'm happy every single morning when I wake up no not at all I don't believe anybody is and if you're are show me your fucking recipe please because I'll drink it up but no I'm not forever happy but if I look at my life and what I've generated and what I've created yes I'm happy I'm happy with that but I'm still striving I'm still pushing towards goals whether that be work goals, whether that be, I always want to be better.

[711] And that's the problem with me. You said it's not complete?

[712] No. What would be required to complete it?

[713] I don't know.

[714] That's the frightening part.

[715] So I can keep chasing money.

[716] I can keep chasing deals.

[717] I can keep putting things in place.

[718] I can keep looking at that Rolls -Royce that I could probably buy, but I can't justify it.

[719] because as I said before I look at it as the kids' money and I ain't spend their money on keeping a Rose Roy so that just ain't in the plan I don't know I don't know what's going to make me happy try and just keep getting better at whatever I'm doing try and keep a working relationship and a lifestyle relationship both of them work in tandem so I can remain happy but keep also enough time to spend with my kids and family because ultimately I've got to work and need something to focus on I was retired for two years and basically not heard of and no one's seen me for 12 months I just enjoyed getting fat and yeah just being one of the lads with me mate and then I soon realised shit I need something to focus on why?

[720] Because life just I can't just be a home be a dad and be a husband and just sit there and get fat I mean what kind of example I'm setting to my kids is there a part of it that your life was so full of adrenaline and that's super addictive that buzz and then I mean, fighters talk about this a lot and Fury's talked about this a lot and then that struggle of just going back to, I mean, you've said it and you're not very good at normal life.

[721] No, I'm not good at that.

[722] I can definitely, yeah, I'm not good at just being a, I couldn't be a nine to five dad.

[723] Like that in itself is a fucking great strength.

[724] That is an enormous amount of strength that you give them a pat on the back.

[725] But everyone out there doing nine to five, I've done it, I've tried it.

[726] I've worked in next, I've worked in a pillow factory, I've worked as a lifeguard.

[727] I've worked nightclub security, daytime security.

[728] I've worked as a labourer.

[729] I've done some mad stuff.

[730] I've done every possible thing you can imagine.

[731] I understand it.

[732] I've sat in an office.

[733] I worked as a chain of accountant.

[734] So I have my best with that.

[735] It's hard.

[736] Nine to five jobs are hard.

[737] Anything worth doing is hard.

[738] To be the best at something is very hard.

[739] This thing that you think you're kind of looking for to complete you, as you said does it scare you that it might not even exist it doesn't exist and that's the frightening part I know it doesn't exist but that I also understand and know that no one can feel absolutely complete because otherwise we wouldn't be doing the things we're doing the complete person doesn't exist that's a bullshit so that's a fairy tale so you show me a complete if you can show me a fully complete happy person I'll show you a unicorn It's just doesn't exist, but I'm still chasing it.

[740] Well, I'd like to think so.

[741] Quick one.

[742] We bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the UK and when we're in L .A. If you want to be one of those people, all you've got to do is hit subscribe.

[743] Tony, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest writes a question for the next guest.

[744] Wow.

[745] Yeah.

[746] And I don't read it until I open this book.

[747] So if money were no issue and completely unlimited, what would that enable for you?

[748] And then they've done the second part to the question.

[749] How would you put it to use to further your vision?

[750] So if money with no issue, money was no issue, creative.

[751] I'm one of the trying to create things from my kids that I pass on.

[752] So I've always thought about when I die.

[753] so leaving making sure they're safe would you give them all the money though that's a fucking big question would they give them all the money yeah you kids if I was a billionaire yeah no not all of it are you not a bit scared because you come from the place you come from is not the place they come from it is yes I understand that even though my eldest son wanted to be the same which it can never be he would never understand he likes to think he can think he can because he was born, where he was born and where he's served the first few years of his life he's seen us have difficult times he remembers shared in the bedroom with his brothers he remembers I can't even say that no he's always had the best the kids always had the best even when I didn't have but he had it so yeah if that if that was entailed if money was no object if I sent you a billion right now not that I have it but if I did I sent you a billion what changes I have a billion.

[754] Does it scare you a little bit of the thought of getting a billion?

[755] No. Money doesn't mean much to me anymore.

[756] It's like fame.

[757] Fame is just an expectation.

[758] Fame is just an intrusion of privacy.

[759] That's all as it is.

[760] It doesn't mean anything.

[761] I tell people all the time.

[762] Social media is the biggest problem we're dealing with because it's showing everyone the destination and no one the journey.

[763] Everyone just sees where.

[764] No one sees where you came from.

[765] No one sees the, everyone just sees this point up here and this point down here.

[766] No one sees that uphill struggle, the fight to get where you need to get the hours of determination, of work, of craft, of all the stuff you put in.

[767] No one sees that journey.

[768] And if I could have that money and show that, it would be more in showing people the journey.

[769] That's what I would use that money for.

[770] Show people the journey.

[771] Show everyone that they're capable of everything I've done.

[772] I tell this to people all the time.

[773] I am no one special.

[774] A guy just stopped me outside.

[775] He gave me, he shook hands at me. He said, can I show you something?

[776] Right outside, and I just pulled up outside here.

[777] He said, of course you can't mind.

[778] I said, fire away.

[779] I said, stop believing.

[780] I'm someone special.

[781] He says, do you know, look at this.

[782] He just showed me a picture on his social media.

[783] I have no idea what the guy's name was, but he says, look at that.

[784] He said, there's hope for all fat kids.

[785] And it was a picture of me after I just beat up David Hay.

[786] And it was a picture on his Instagram that was posted months ago.

[787] But he showed me. And I said, thank you so much for his support.

[788] I appreciate that.

[789] Now, if that can't show you, I can be achieved and nothing can't, that's all I am, that's all I am, a fat kid from Liverpool, who never gave in, who never gave up, and always believed in himself.

[790] If I can do it, so can everyone else watching this.

[791] Thank you, Tony.

[792] An absolute pleasure.

[793] Honestly, really remarkably inspiring.

[794] And the thing that I think the mark you left on me as I watched your journey play out is that it's possible to be a really good, honest, legit person who is exactly who you think they are when you see them on screen who's willing to pour their heart out who doesn't need to engage in these like shit talking games that like David Hay was doing who can be so real and connect with so many people because of their like just their realness and their honesty while also being this this unbelievable champion that was considered an underdog for so many years and that did it all so thank you so much and it was a pleasure reading this as well because thank you your book is as real as you are and it's it's It's, as you say, from the guy outside, it's an inspiration to so many young men that need that.

[795] Thank you very much.

[796] I just try and be authentic and be yourself.

[797] It's all we can really be.

[798] I mean, there's no point in pretending to be anyone else or trying to be something that you're not because ultimately in the end, your colours will come shining through and you will see who you are.

[799] So thank you very, very much.

[800] It's been an absolute episode and a half coming here, seeing your environment and finding out about you as well.

[801] You've done amazing to come from the background.

[802] You've come from and to do what you should be very proud to yourself.

[803] Oh, thanks man. Means a lot coming from you.

[804] Thank you.

[805] Pleasure.

[806] Thanks.