Flightless Bird: Fantasy Football

[0] I'm David Farrier, in New Zealand are accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick.

[1] What's become very clear in flightless birds so far is that Americans love sports.

[2] It's one of the few things besides religion that seems to bind people together here.

[3] Sometimes it makes them fall apart as well, but mostly it brings them together.

[4] We've done whole flightless bird episodes just around sports like pickleball.

[5] It's like chess.

[6] It's just understanding how the game is playing.

[7] And baseball.

[8] You set no expectations.

[9] So when there's no expectations, you can't get annoyed when something that you're expecting doesn't happen.

[10] So if you go out there with no expectations, everything you get is a blessing.

[11] But there's a whole other huge side to American sports, one that's entirely, well, almost entirely made up.

[12] Because around 19 % of Americans over the age of 18 play fantasy sports.

[13] Not real sports, but fantasy ones.

[14] We become the owner of your own fantasy team made up.

[15] of real players.

[16] It's so big, there's a whole TV show about it, seven seasons worth, called The League.

[17] Shit!

[18] Did you lose?

[19] You shut your mouth!

[20] Every year I set this league up, every year, and I never win!

[21] This was the year!

[22] There's a variety of fantasy sports, but 80 % of Americans playing them are playing fantasy football, which is where we turn today.

[23] Of course, it's now a global phenomenon.

[24] I have friends in New Zealand that are obsessed with fantasy football, but it was birthed in New York over 60 years ago.

[25] Today, 50 million Americans play fantasy football each year.

[26] So if I was to live here, I'd need to understand fantasy football's mysterious ways.

[27] So study up on those players and statistics and prepare to dedicate a lot of time to something that's mostly just made up, because this is the fantasy football episode.

[28] Flyless.

[29] Flyless bird touchdown in America.

[30] I'm a flightless bird touchdown in America.

[31] Now, I remember when we first started the show, way back when, when we were little babies.

[32] We're tiny.

[33] Bubbubs.

[34] And I said, I think we need to do an episode on fantasy football.

[35] To me, it's the most American.

[36] thing.

[37] Because I don't understand it.

[38] It's so bizarre and I think so specifically American.

[39] And I think from what I can tell in this episode, as an American, you either know everything about it or you know nothing.

[40] There's very few people who are sort of in the middle ground.

[41] You're either on board or you're like, if that, it's not for me at all.

[42] Because it's starting.

[43] Obviously, Rob's playing.

[44] Do you have friends starting to talk about it?

[45] Is this in your world at all?

[46] It is.

[47] In Rob's League, a bunch of my friends are in that.

[48] Oh, and that may be an Easter egg.

[49] Yeah, well, and I'm excited to share these people.

[50] My friend, Anna, is just now recently into fantasy football.

[51] She's getting into it.

[52] Yes, and she has a bunch of friends who are super into it.

[53] So it's in my world.

[54] I will say it has affected me negatively already this year.

[55] Oh, how so?

[56] So Anna and her girlfriend, Julia, Jess, and I had a dinner plan at Houston's.

[57] Huge.

[58] You love Houston's.

[59] And it was extra big because it was the last day they were serving the baked potato.

[60] Oh.

[61] I've been missing it and I'm still angry, but whatever.

[62] Last day, big day, we go and Anna has to do her fantasy football draft during the dinner.

[63] Oh, my God.

[64] The draft's happening.

[65] Yes.

[66] And so she has to leave, go outside.

[67] And she's like, it'll just be a second.

[68] And then it was so long, and she ruined Potato Day.

[69] She disappeared, because I was curious if she would sit at that table glued to her phone doing it.

[70] But she decided to leave and do it outside.

[71] She did, but then she came back and was finishing it up.

[72] That's interesting, actually, because do you think she should have never gone to that?

[73] Because she would have known that was coming up.

[74] Do you think she shouldn't have gone to the dinner?

[75] Or just because I do this sometimes, I double book things.

[76] And I sort of, in my brain, I sort of go, I'll do both and everyone will be happy.

[77] inevitably end up fucking someone off Well it was just Sophie's choice Because the thing is she had to do both Because it was last day of potato It was And we only found out a couple days before So it wasn't like we could plan well And she had to It's already effing with your life It already has had a major impact So I'm not into just full disclosure It's not my thing, fantasy football I struggle with anything that's kind of made up Like tabletop card games Have you ever got a friend?

[78] Like, do you play Catan?

[79] Oh, I love Catan.

[80] Okay, right.

[81] And Spade.

[82] I love games.

[83] I really struggle learning the rules to things and like just being told a whole lot of new things.

[84] If someone's explaining a tabletop game to me or like a complicated card game, I desperately try to engage.

[85] But something in me just is repulsed by all these new rules coming in.

[86] And I think that's kind of similar to this.

[87] To this in a way.

[88] It's just a whole lot of stuff.

[89] Yeah.

[90] Is tabletop game what we would call board game?

[91] When I say tabletop game, board games in my mind is like Monopoly, Scrabble.

[92] I can cope with those.

[93] Tabletop game, I think of as being a more complex, like a Catan, something a lot more intense.

[94] Like Catan and Monopoly are different things, right?

[95] I see them as being different things.

[96] You do.

[97] Interesting.

[98] Okay.

[99] But maybe in America, they're kind of all the same.

[100] And also like those complicated card games that people play where it's different points and sort of gets a bit different.

[101] dungeon and dragony and stuff.

[102] Oh, that, yeah.

[103] You're like a whole other level.

[104] That stuff just freaks my brain out.

[105] Oh, no. Yes.

[106] Because I want to learn about it.

[107] Calvin's in an after -school dungeon and dragons club.

[108] What already?

[109] That's really cute.

[110] He's going to be so good by the time he's eight.

[111] It's one time a week.

[112] Still.

[113] I wasn't allowed to do Dungeons and Dragons when I was a kid because of all the, I was so religious.

[114] Yeah, so now it was like a portal to hell.

[115] And so I was really jealous of all.

[116] the nerds that were off playing D &D.

[117] And I was genuinely kind of scared of it because I thought bad things might happen.

[118] But Rob is an old...

[119] Oh, he's obsessed with fantasy football.

[120] Seasons fantasy football.

[121] Just tell me what it is about it that gets you going, gets your blood boiling.

[122] I mean, it helps you care a little bit more about the sport.

[123] I'm from Chicago and my football team that I root for is not very good and they've been very good for a long time.

[124] So I was really...

[125] reluctant to do fantasy football for a long time.

[126] And then the first year I did it, and it helps you care about more than just your team and the other games around the league.

[127] It keeps you more engaged with football.

[128] And then there's also the community of the league that you're doing.

[129] Yeah.

[130] That part is nice.

[131] How many leagues are you in this year?

[132] I'm only in two.

[133] Only two is my max.

[134] Okay.

[135] Yeah, yeah, no, that's fair.

[136] My journey started.

[137] Rob invited me along to...

[138] I can't wait for this.

[139] To do a draft And this is what happened Ready, one, two, three Fantasy football, fantasy football, fantasy football, yeah It's 6pm and I've just wandered into a Buffalo Wild Wings to meet a fantasy football league in the flesh A group of friends preparing to draft their teams for the season To be totally up front, I have very little interest in fantasy football.

[140] About 0%.

[141] I've got nothing against it, but my brain just struggles with statistics and numbers and constantly checking in on things.

[142] If something isn't real, my mind just doesn't really care.

[143] But I know that for some people, millions and millions of Americans, fantasy football is really important.

[144] And it's that obsession I'm interested in learning about more than the football bit.

[145] Now, Buffalo Wild Wings is a big place, and I was worried I wouldn't able to find the people I was looking for, but then I spot a big table of the most manly men I'd ever seen.

[146] We started off going to Hooters, which is even more stereotypical fantasy spot, but they've since gone out of business, so we've switched to Buffalo Wild Wings.

[147] Yeah, great wings, great wings.

[148] You know, it's kind of the vibe we're going for, cheesy sports bar.

[149] It seems like the right place to do a fantasy dress.

[150] There are a lot of arms on display at this table and a lot of tattoos.

[151] I sit down next to Charlie, a fitness coach, who you'll probably know if you listen to armchair expert.

[152] You guys are known each other forever, I'm assuming?

[153] Yes, so I think our original members are Ryan, Mike and I, we've done this now probably 12 years, and we've known each other even longer, and we've just kind of been adding people.

[154] As people drop off, we add in other friends and other folks.

[155] Other folks like Rom, the producer of this show, who's sitting down at the end of the table in his Chicago white socks cap his uniform.

[156] As for me, well, this tightly knit crew had decided to let this ignoramus sit down with them to eat some wings while they draft their fantasy teams.

[157] This is a long -standing league.

[158] I think 10 to 12 is the magic number.

[159] You have to really know your stuff if you're going more than 12 because there's only so many players but 10 to 12, we got 12 this year.

[160] Charlie's pulled a lot of shit in the league.

[161] Charlie has been a little bit of a dictator commissioner at times.

[162] Is anyone at this table that typically comes out on top?

[163] Unfortunately, Josh at the end wins probably 75 % of the time.

[164] Holy shit.

[165] Yep.

[166] So it ends up being generally we all pay Josh is what this is.

[167] This is another source of Josh's income.

[168] I glanced down at Josh.

[169] Maybe it's just that I now know he tends to win, but he does stand out.

[170] He's one of the few men at the table who has their arms covered.

[171] He's quiet, and he's calculated, he looks like he's up to something.

[172] I should know that everyone at the table has a laptop out or a tablet in front of them.

[173] It's a computer party in here.

[174] They all have the same website open, and it's counting down until the draft starts.

[175] Right now, there's about nine minutes to go.

[176] This is like fantasy sports .jahoo .com.

[177] Is this what all of America is on, or are there like a million different ones you can use?

[178] There's a million different ones.

[179] I'd say Yahoo. ESPN is a big one.

[180] You can do it manually.

[181] I can't do it manually.

[182] There we go.

[183] Alex has shown up.

[184] We got another one, our final member.

[185] You can do it manually, but it involves keeping track of all the stats.

[186] So Yacht is everything for us.

[187] So we just pick our teams.

[188] It's kind of the easiest way.

[189] Most of the people here seem to be taking it quite seriously.

[190] So I'm pleased that Matthew was taking a more casual approach.

[191] It's intense.

[192] I'm underprepared.

[193] I know nothing.

[194] First year I came in, I didn't even know what to use the system.

[195] Two years ago.

[196] Second year, I did too much research, and it didn't pan out.

[197] I did better the first year.

[198] This year, I'm going into no research.

[199] I wonder if he's not as studied up in all this because he's Canadian.

[200] Like me, he's not from here, so maybe football has less of a grasp on his psyche.

[201] Well, actually, my great -grandfather was one of the co -founders of the Canadian Football League.

[202] Incredible.

[203] Football in my blood.

[204] And I played football growing up, but Canadian football, it's different.

[205] How is Canadian football different?

[206] never thought about Canadian football.

[207] The field is larger, but like what's funny is like the Canadian Football League, it's big.

[208] They get large audiences, but some, like my brother -in -law is the VP of Home Depot in Canada.

[209] And when he worked there, when he was younger, football players are like working there in the summer.

[210] They're making that little money.

[211] Like it's like some people are making like maybe six figures, but like I don't even know if there's a CFL player that's making a million.

[212] Do you have like a main bit of advice for someone that has never played fantasy football before?

[213] Yeah, there are so many websites.

[214] You can find out everything you need to know.

[215] And honestly, last year, my TikTok algorithm just became fantasy football.

[216] So I literally would follow that and it would be like, this is a player that was just brought up and is going to do good things.

[217] And then you find him and you get him and he does good things.

[218] Like, there's people doing all the research that are putting it online, so you don't need to do it.

[219] While I wait for my wings, I move around the table, talking to everyone.

[220] Some of them offer me tips.

[221] They've each put $200 down this season.

[222] And I think something that makes fantasy football addictive is having some skin in the game.

[223] And picking your team is how it all begins.

[224] Is it about trading players once you've started, or is it all to do with what happens in nine minutes time?

[225] No, I would say it has all to do with paying attention to the waiver wire, which is all the guys that are essentially free agents during the season, and then placing your claims on them.

[226] So if you're the one paying attention and placing the claim, then you're picking up the hotter guys.

[227] Finally, the clock hits 10 seconds, 9 seconds, 8 seconds.

[228] It's time for these boys to draft their fantasy teams.

[229] Here we go.

[230] We're on the clock in five.

[231] Four, three, two, one.

[232] What follows is about an hour of each person getting a chance to pick players for their team one by one.

[233] Sometimes there's chatter around the table.

[234] mixed with the slurpy, visceral sounds of eating wings bathed in sauce.

[235] Sometimes, though, it goes entirely quiet, just furrowed brows around the table.

[236] Another thing to consider is you've got to come up with a good fantasy football name.

[237] And most of them are puns or plays on a player name.

[238] So that also could play into my next pick.

[239] If I can come up with a good team name based on their name, that works.

[240] Charlie's ordered the hottest wings you can get here.

[241] The waitress warned him it would be bad news.

[242] but Charlie didn't listen.

[243] As the hour ticks by, he gets hotter and hotter.

[244] He's turned an unsettling shade of red, and there's a lot of sweat.

[245] I'm dying.

[246] I'm soaking wet and sweat.

[247] I'm crying.

[248] My nose is running.

[249] I'm supposed to pick a player now that I don't even know if I can read these names.

[250] This is not like you.

[251] You usually can push through.

[252] It's way hotter than I was expecting.

[253] Oh my God.

[254] I leave him to sweat to see how everyone else is getting on.

[255] I missed your name.

[256] My name's Pete.

[257] Pete, how's everything going down here, Pete?

[258] I had the first pick, and I've had the first pick three years in a row.

[259] I don't really know how that happens.

[260] Yeah, that seems rigged, but it's just luck.

[261] It's just luck.

[262] The first pick's a little rough because you, like, pick, and then you've got to wait 24 people for the next one.

[263] I was on my way out the door today, and to my girl, I was like, wish me luck, and she was like, well, why would I wish you luck?

[264] I was like, well, because it's all luck.

[265] None of this.

[266] Everyone has all kinds of research here, but like, no actual research.

[267] I kind of love that, the people that think there's, like, this big technique behind it and all this skill, but it really does just come down to a lot of luck.

[268] You're sitting here getting mad about this fake thing.

[269] It's just amazing.

[270] It makes me so mad on Sundays, but, like, I'm so obsessed with it at the same time.

[271] And there's, like, a little dark side to it where you, like, kind of root against people sometimes.

[272] It's a little dark.

[273] I hadn't thought about this aspect of fantasy football.

[274] that while watching real games, you're thinking about your fantasy team.

[275] You might love a player in real life, but end up resenting them because of what they're doing to your team in fantasy land.

[276] 100 % because you're invested in games you wouldn't care about otherwise, and then on top of that, you get mad.

[277] Like, my team passes it to the wrong guy, but, like, scores a touchdown.

[278] I'm like, fucking unbelievably bad, you know?

[279] Are you sold in fantasy football now?

[280] I understand it slightly more than before I arrived.

[281] Can't imagine this is making you eager to participate next year?

[282] Yeah, I mean, I was, Rob did make me sign up last year, and I just didn't look at anything that was happening.

[283] I just wasn't involved.

[284] I think I need to learn more about the actual game first to understand the players and what I love about it before I do this, because I think with no knowledge of football, you're kind of fucked, you know?

[285] I will say you minimally have to watch football games.

[286] Even if you don't understand the scoring and stuff, If they announce your player, you're assuming he's getting points.

[287] And it makes watching games more exciting and makes this exciting.

[288] This is what I like about it.

[289] This is like enhances the game.

[290] Yeah, yeah.

[291] It's like a game within a game.

[292] And there's so many football games, and I wouldn't watch any of them.

[293] But now I'll just tune into a game here or there that I otherwise wouldn't care because I might have a player.

[294] By now, everyone's fingers are covered in chicken and condiments, including mine, and the draft wraps up.

[295] It started with a bang, but ends fairly science.

[296] Everyone at the table looks like they've just played a game of football, mentally and physically exhausted.

[297] But this is just the start of the season, the beginning.

[298] My nose is running and clogged, but I think my team is pretty solid.

[299] I don't know half of my players, but I have a feeling that they're going to be pretty good.

[300] Someone here at this table will emerge victorious.

[301] Others will make bad decisions and have bad luck, ending the football season dejected and depressed.

[302] Only time will tell But right now There's a gentle buzz of anticipation In the air Anything's possible We did it Yeah How was my first fantasy football draft And I had a really good time Just like men being men You know Arms out Chicken You're more focused on the arms out part There were so many arms out I've never seen Apart from like Rob and a couple of people There Rob had his arms in What do you mean in Singlet, just like, dressed.

[303] Singlets.

[304] Everyone was in singlets.

[305] No, not singlets.

[306] Tattoos.

[307] You mean tankish tops?

[308] Singlets.

[309] No. A singlet in America is what a wrestler wears.

[310] It's one piece.

[311] It's a one piece.

[312] Oh, people weren't wearing that.

[313] Yeah, no. That's our uniform for the fantasy draft.

[314] That would be amazing.

[315] You know, normally I can listen to these docks objectively because...

[316] You're detached.

[317] I'm detached and I want to know if we need to cut stuff and...

[318] I'm aware of it.

[319] These are all my best buddies.

[320] They're really nice.

[321] They made me so happy to hear those places.

[322] They were good people.

[323] Also, if you listen to F1, you already know Matt and Charlie.

[324] And you very nicely, but I feel okay to say this.

[325] You concealed his identity, but Pete is Pete Wentz.

[326] Oh, yeah.

[327] David didn't know.

[328] I had no idea at the time.

[329] Yeah, he was so lovely.

[330] Yeah, he was great.

[331] The nicest person.

[332] And gave good intel.

[333] Like everyone there just was so It's just like a group of friends That have bonded over various things But fantasy football And that made me think This has got something going for it Because it is, it's like a little friendship circle It was nice I also just for context Because people who don't know the group Might be pissed at Josh Because why does that guy win all the time No one deserves it more Than Josh Elwell He's a very nice boy Yeah I really liked him And it did confuse me, though, because Pete was telling me there's so much luck involved, and yet you have Josh who's winning 75 % of the title.

[334] He's one in four right now.

[335] He's in 10th place.

[336] Oh, he's not doing so well?

[337] Not so hot.

[338] Okay, so maybe he's going to drop.

[339] Okay, but there's still a pattern.

[340] Yeah, and obviously, so like knowing players and picking wisely, it does make sense to do that.

[341] So it's not all luck.

[342] It's about being active and paying attention.

[343] You've joined another league with me. I have this year.

[344] Another fantasy football league?

[345] Yeah.

[346] Yeah, Rob wrote me in, sort of for this episode.

[347] And I said, yes, I said, I'll do it.

[348] I did it last year, and I didn't pay any attention.

[349] Okay.

[350] You're doing the same again.

[351] I think I don't think I'm going to play.

[352] Nothing in me makes me want to look at that app.

[353] I sort of look at it, and I'm just my eyes glaze over.

[354] And I don't want to be like the downer in the group.

[355] So I guess my question to you, Rob, is there a way for him to quit?

[356] like quitting a like a group chat is something is there where I can sort of slip out where those boys don't hate me you already have a team yeah you already drafted half your team's injured you're not even playing so you just get destroyed every week okay so that's fine so I just get destroyed and it's okay well it's not great because then you when someone good is playing you want them to lose but then they got David he's saying he doesn't care yeah I know he just wants so then why don't you just not look at it and then if That's what he's doing.

[357] Yeah, so I'm saying.

[358] So at the end, if you happen to win, someone will tell you.

[359] But you don't have to watch or pay attention if you don't care.

[360] Yeah, yeah.

[361] I wish I cared.

[362] And I tried.

[363] I even read some blogs and stuff about it.

[364] And as I was reading, my eyes got heavy and I just started to, like, get tired.

[365] It makes sense to me that you don't care because there is a little bit of a prerequisite of caring about football in general.

[366] and maybe not loving football, but caring.

[367] Football games, when you watch them on TV, to me, are so boring.

[368] Yeah, yeah, they're not for you.

[369] They're not, but I also, I love college football because of my school, and so I would love going to games.

[370] But when we watched, I was always just by the snacks.

[371] Yeah, and yeah, the snacks are great at any American sports game, right?

[372] And I think that's what I'm learning about America.

[373] If football's on and there's like a big group of people watching, I like being in the room of people and eating and seeing people.

[374] And I think it's sort of the same as fantasy football.

[375] I like sitting around eating wings with people.

[376] Don't love staring at my phone and statistics on my own.

[377] It would be one thing if every week you guys met up.

[378] Yeah.

[379] That would be fun.

[380] And we did all little trades and all little changes and everything.

[381] That would be more up my alley, I think.

[382] Right.

[383] But then just the one time, just a little bit of a buzzkill.

[384] How much money is in your pot, Rob?

[385] The one with David's in.

[386] is like a $20 team $20 buy -in Yeah With eight teams Because I'm in there I'll still put $20 down That's fair I want to do that Yeah I don't want to be cheap In that way What's Charlie's?

[387] That's $200 a team Shit And how many There's 12 teams But it's not Not everything goes to first place There's like First, second, third place prize And what's the first place prize?

[388] Is anyone rooting For Travis Kelsey I mean he's good He's a good fantasy player.

[389] All right.

[390] So first place is $1 ,200.

[391] Second place is $720.

[392] Third place is $240.

[393] That's nice.

[394] That's nice.

[395] Have you ever made the top three?

[396] Not in this league.

[397] Okay.

[398] And then there's the highest point total also gets $240.

[399] Oh, wow.

[400] What's the most amount of money you've ever made playing fantasy football?

[401] I don't really play for a ton of money when I play.

[402] Got it.

[403] It's usually like a $20 league.

[404] You're in it for the money.

[405] You're in it for the skill.

[406] I like making.

[407] Sunday is more fun by having a fantasy team.

[408] I get that and you're invested in a different way.

[409] Yeah.

[410] A question I had for you, Rob, I was talking to a friend in New Zealand who's heavily invested in fantasy football and he emailed me when I was working on this doc and he said, I play in a totally psycho league called a dynasty dynasty.

[411] Dynasty.

[412] Dynasty?

[413] Dynasty.

[414] Dynasty.

[415] It's a format that's gaining a lot of popularity.

[416] The conceders you have larger rosters, 25 versus usual 15 and you pick players once.

[417] After that, you had them on your team for their whole careers.

[418] And you said that's like just a very intense way to play.

[419] There's a lot of intense variations of it.

[420] Right.

[421] That's not for you.

[422] No, that's too much.

[423] He's got very excited about that, so I thought...

[424] Stay tuned for more flightless bird.

[425] We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

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[450] So look, I wanted to find out a bit more for the people that are listening who were like really into this because people might be listening to this episode that I fucking love fantasy football I want to learn and so I'm going to learn I'm going to learn some more great so I delve deeper it's been a while since I witnessed my first fantasy football draft as me and a bunch of other men stared at laptops and ate chicken wings the season's now well underway you listening may be deeply involved yourself or like me you're just gently standing by at the sidelines I wanted to more about the culture of fantasy football.

[451] So I tracked down sports reporter and ESPN correspondent Mina Kimes.

[452] Mina has a big interest in football and fantasy football.

[453] She's one of ESPN's main football analysts.

[454] She knows her stuff.

[455] I did my first fantasy football draft and it was so many men, big men with big arms and tattoos and everything.

[456] And I'm just wondering what is the scene of fantasy football in the United States?

[457] Is it just men or is it God forbid, other people as well.

[458] Fantasy football is actually, I think, one of the things that's onboarded a lot of different people to the sport.

[459] It's really popular with women, with kids.

[460] It's been a great way to bring people in to football because it gives everybody this vested interest in watching the games that they didn't have before, maybe if they didn't grow up rooting for a team.

[461] Now, it makes them watch the sport in a very different way, but it's been probably the best marketing tool that the NFL has had created for decades.

[462] Fantasy football was invented just over 61 years ago by Bill Winkinbatch, who was a part owner of the Oakland Raiders.

[463] According to ESPN, he dreamed up the idea along with an Oakland sports reporter at a New York hotel during a Raiders road trip.

[464] The Friends had that first draft in 1963.

[465] It was called the Greater Oakland Professional Pigskin Prognosticators League, which I guess started the trend of giving your league a funny name.

[466] By the late 60s, the first public fantasy football game started at a bar in Oakland.

[467] By the 80s, over a million people were playing fantasy football.

[468] And as the internet and smartphones came along, millions more joined them.

[469] Tens of millions.

[470] Today, it's a multi -billion dollar industry.

[471] I'm still a bit confused about how much the teams are involved and how much it is this whole separate entity that just sits.

[472] on top of the game?

[473] The teams are not involved.

[474] As much as conspiracy theorists might believe the teams are trying to get the football to certain people or not to certain people.

[475] The funny thing is, though, the players are very keenly aware of it because they hear about it so much from fans, like running backs and wide receivers, if there may be a little iffy and, you know, game time decision and it goes down to the wire and they don't play, fantasy football managers get very upset with them.

[476] And so they're very keenly aware of how it affects how they're perceived and talked about.

[477] Do any of them play or they're not allowed the actual players?

[478] It's funny you ask this because the NFL recently cracked down on gambling, but they're definitely allowed to play.

[479] And sometimes it's kind of funny because players will come out and admit they played a guy who was on their team and maybe they were hoping you would get the ball.

[480] A lot of them say that they play themselves, which is a very athlete mindset.

[481] It's the ultimate sign of self -belief.

[482] How much of your time is spent thinking about the real game and then the fantasy side of the game?

[483] So in my capacity as an NFL analyst at ESPN, 99 % of my time is probably spent talking about the real game.

[484] But I do talk about fantasy football.

[485] I actually got my start doing fantasy football radio.

[486] I talk about it in various platforms.

[487] And they really inform each other.

[488] The research you do to be good at fantasy football has a lot of crossover with the research you would do to study the actual game.

[489] Now, you're looking for different things, as I'm sure you've, well, maybe you haven't learned.

[490] Maybe you're going to learn what makes a great fantasy football quarterback, for example, is different from it makes a, a great real -life quarterback, so it's not always the same thing, and you have to be aware of that.

[491] Can you please explain that to me a little bit?

[492] Because I'm still puzzled about how much of it is luck during the season and how much skill is involved.

[493] I genuinely don't understand that or have a feel for it at all.

[494] It's a mix.

[495] I would say 70 % skill, 30 % luck.

[496] The fantasy people would probably say more skill.

[497] Other people would say more luck.

[498] Because obviously, the luck factors into availability.

[499] football is a sport where there's a lot of injuries and that often tends to decide fantasy victories and losses.

[500] But how you respond to those injuries, the players you choose to stream, the way you manage your roster, finding sleepers, that's all skill.

[501] 70 % skill is way higher than I'd imagined and makes me think there's an even smaller chance of fantasy football becoming a big part of my life.

[502] I barely understand the real sport, let alone the stats and nuance needed to keep on top of a dream 10.

[503] You can definitely enjoy it without knowing a lot about it as long as you understand the keys to what makes a successful fantasy player.

[504] Things like obviously the productivity, you can look at some of the basic numbers, but also availability, usage, the level of competition.

[505] All of those things, however, are much easier to gauge if you know something about the actual game.

[506] You draft defense last, and then that's something that you tend to change week to week based on opponent.

[507] So somebody with football knowledge would be aware of you would rather start an inferior defense if they're playing a horrible offense as opposed to, you know, an average defense if they're playing a very good offense, for example.

[508] I'm going to be honest, my eyes glazed over a little there.

[509] Something in my brain, as I said before, is just wired wrong when it comes to sport, or sports, as you say in America.

[510] Something doesn't connect.

[511] It's like my brain turns off when people start describing the rules.

[512] but I'm happy that millions find joy and camaraderie in it.

[513] I talk to another expert for this episode, Robert Mays.

[514] He writes for The Atlantic and his host of the athletic football show and told me that for some Americans, fantasy football is the social glue that holds their friendship circles together.

[515] I think it's the social aspect of it.

[516] That is very important.

[517] The league that I'm most invested in is my high school home week.

[518] And those are guys that I've known since I was a kid.

[519] And I don't know if I would talk to a lot of those guys with the same frequency and in the same way that I do because of fantasy football.

[520] And we try, I try every year to be in person for our draft.

[521] And I see these guys who have known since I was eight or nine years old and their fathers now and they live in Denver and Baltimore and all over the country.

[522] But this is a chance for me to see them and talk to them.

[523] And I do really believe, and this has been written in so many different places over the last few years, that there is kind of a loneliness epidemic among American males of a certain age where there just aren't as many community places for us to gather.

[524] And I think that fantasy football really does provide that for a lot of people.

[525] It just provides a space for us to be with our friends and have our own time.

[526] And I think that's really important.

[527] I think that's why so many people attach themselves to it in the way that they do, because there just aren't that many outlets for that sort of male bonding and relationships that fantasy football currently provides for people.

[528] I keep thinking of that scene in the league.

[529] the TV show that I played in the intro to this episode.

[530] And yeah, in America, it can be bad for losers in fantasy football.

[531] With that in mind, Robert told me about some of the bets involved and what happens to the losers in a league.

[532] Have you heard about this where you have to eat a certain amount of pancakes?

[533] You have to sit in an I -Hop for 24 hours or a Waffle House, whatever establishment is open 24 hours.

[534] And every pancake you eat takes an hour off of your tea.

[535] time.

[536] So if you can sit there and eat 18 pancakes, then you only have to sit in the IHOP for six hours.

[537] But if you're not someone who can put away 18 pancakes, then you're still looking at a 12 hour sitting in an I hop.

[538] I enjoy those a lot.

[539] But I think that those started creeping up in the last few years when most of us were already into our 30s and several of us had kids, things like that.

[540] So the embarrassing public shaming, I think we aged out of that.

[541] We missed the error for that, unfortunately.

[542] I talked to Mina about this too.

[543] One story sprung to mind for her, maybe motivated by the fact she's about to have her first child.

[544] I might be making this up, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing once a league where the loser, the rest of the league got to choose the name of his firstborn child.

[545] That one struck me as being a little bit too far.

[546] As I started to wrap things up, I thought it would be kind of ridiculous to have this ESPN football analyst in front of me without requesting some fantasy football tips for anyone listening that might be really into fantasy football.

[547] I don't want to let you down.

[548] There'll be listeners to this podcast that do know about it and they'll be just rolling their eyes at me. For those people that are listening, do you have a little bit of advice that might help a game?

[549] Do you want a name?

[550] Give me a name.

[551] This is good.

[552] A guy I like, for example, this year is Jalen Warren in Pittsburgh.

[553] I think he's going to get more reps as the season goes on.

[554] I draft quarterbacks later, which is pretty standard.

[555] fantasy knowledge.

[556] It's odd because it is the most important position in football, but there are a lot of quarterbacks who can produce at a pretty similar level produce for fantasy purposes, whereas the top tier running backs and wide receivers are harder to find.

[557] Finally, I thought back to what a lot of people had mentioned at the draft I attended, Charlie and Pete and Rob and all of them, this clash between the real worlds and the fantasy worlds.

[558] How can you cope with the team you love in real life, letting you down in the fantasy worlds, or vice versa.

[559] How did your whole brain not explode and fall apart?

[560] Mina gave me a really considered answer, an answer I enjoyed because it started with a compliment.

[561] We all love a compliment.

[562] Yes, that's a great question.

[563] So I am a Seattle Seahawks fan.

[564] I've been public about this.

[565] I have a Seahawks Super Bowl tattoo on my arm.

[566] I can't really hide it.

[567] But when I draft for fantasy, really try to avoid drafting Seahawks.

[568] Now, you might think, well, doesn't that make it at odds?

[569] Like, let's say they're playing, I don't know, the Pittsburgh Steelers, what I'd be reading for George Pickens, a wide receiver, to get guards against Seattle.

[570] The way I view it is I like to have a series of emotional hedges built in where I have something to feel good about no matter what.

[571] So if the Seahawks lose, I'm like, well, at least George Pickens got me 15 points.

[572] And then if they win, maybe I lose in fantasy, but I'm like, well, my real team won, so I feel good about that.

[573] So I try not to align my rooting interest as a fan with my rooting interest as fantasy, which I don't know if psychologically that's a healthier way to approach it, but I have found it works for me. You also, by the way, will have bonds with specific players.

[574] That's another thing when you get into this, because the guys in your team, you will really feel connected to them.

[575] Whenever you see their names for the rest of your life, if they bring you success, you will think fondly of the year in which they brought you that success.

[576] She was great.

[577] That's great.

[578] I love that approach.

[579] Emotionally.

[580] You always have something to be excited about.

[581] If you're a negative Nancy, you could say you always have something to be upset about, too.

[582] That's true.

[583] But you can frame it how you like.

[584] Yeah, she was very enthusiastic.

[585] She had the tattoo.

[586] And it's crazy to me that an entire job is sports analysis that blows my mind.

[587] She does a fantasy football podcast as well.

[588] Fantasy football podcasting is this huge thing.

[589] Some of the biggest podcasts in the world are fantasy football podcasts.

[590] What?

[591] People love them that much.

[592] And yes, she's one of the podcasts that has a really big show.

[593] Well, okay, she explained it a little, but I'm still very confused at the actual rules.

[594] Yeah, you clearly just didn't understand any of it.

[595] How real life football then translates, since there's more than just this team one.

[596] I understand March Madness, which, by the way, I do want you to do an episode on that as we come closer to that.

[597] Because that's just this team wins, this team wins.

[598] Like the bracket, I get.

[599] I don't get how when you said just now, like Travis Kelsey is a good fantasy player.

[600] What's that mean?

[601] So you're starting your fantasy lineup.

[602] You've got a quarterback, two wide receivers, two running backs, a kicker, a defense, a tight end, and a flex players, how our league does it, which a flex player will be wide receiver, running back, tight end.

[603] You're getting points based on those players' stats.

[604] So if your wide receiver gets three touchdowns, you're getting six points for each of those touchdowns, plus points for all the yardage.

[605] So you're trying to get them most.

[606] How many yards do they run?

[607] Oh, congratulations.

[608] So the different positions also get points in different ways.

[609] So if a quarterback throws an interception, he loses a point.

[610] I see.

[611] And is that universal, like the law of fantasy football?

[612] Is there a Bible?

[613] It's not totally universal, but it's generally the same.

[614] Okay, that actually does answer for me more.

[615] So you're just competing, like, you want the best quarterback out of them.

[616] And then you've got a bench as well.

[617] So you're deciding in between your bench and starters, which quarterback of your two is going to do best.

[618] So you put him in.

[619] You get to decide who's going to play that day for your team.

[620] Oh, wow.

[621] You have reserves on your team that you can swap out to your starting lineup.

[622] I see.

[623] And why don't you pick your quarterback first?

[624] I know she said that seems unconventional, but I don't understand.

[625] Because there's a lot of decent quarterbacks that play, and it's harder.

[626] For the more niche?

[627] Yeah.

[628] You need a good wide receiver.

[629] And if everyone's got two or three wide receivers playing, everyone's going to be fighting for them.

[630] And there's not a ton of really good wide receivers.

[631] Wow.

[632] Do you play other fantasy sports games or just football?

[633] I have.

[634] They get more intense.

[635] The nice thing about football is that it is pretty concentrated in when it happens.

[636] So you're like setting your line up once for the week.

[637] But if you're doing baseball or hockey or basketball which I've done, they have games all week.

[638] Oh, you have to pay attention much more.

[639] Yeah.

[640] Oh my God.

[641] That makes sense.

[642] It's a lot harder.

[643] They play way more games.

[644] There's only 17 football games.

[645] How come people don't do this for college?

[646] They probably do.

[647] Oh, but it's not as big of a thing.

[648] I think the players are less Good?

[649] Not good, but your teams are switching out.

[650] Like, your players are switching out so often.

[651] Yeah, that's true.

[652] You're in a few leagues.

[653] Do you play each game very differently?

[654] What makes them different?

[655] The randomness of the picking?

[656] Your players are different.

[657] Right, okay.

[658] But you try.

[659] I have the same quarterback in both.

[660] Okay, right, right, right, okay.

[661] Wow, you really put all your eggs in who?

[662] Joe Burrow, and it's not worked out for me. Oh, no. Oh, no. Wow.

[663] Yeah, it's just this.

[664] So there's millions and millions of people playing this right now.

[665] I could see.

[666] Now that I'm learning more.

[667] Here we go.

[668] We're losing you.

[669] We're losing you to the other side.

[670] It's fun once you get into it.

[671] I might get into it.

[672] Maybe you should, maybe next year is the year you sign up.

[673] And you're the one at the table who's not eating a hot potato.

[674] You're off drafting a fantasy football team.

[675] That could be the new you.

[676] It could be.

[677] I just am competitive and love games.

[678] Yeah.

[679] Well, we haven't done it yet.

[680] and I've talked about it before, and I know a lot of people are upset because I haven't done it yet.

[681] I'm doing a draft Taylor Swift songs.

[682] What?

[683] Sorry, I'm not aware of this.

[684] Yeah.

[685] Well, speaking of sports podcast, The Ringer is a sports podcast network, very, very big.

[686] I have affection towards the Ringer because they're a Spotify.

[687] Right.

[688] So I feel like in some ways, I don't know why.

[689] I just feel like they're cousins.

[690] or something.

[691] Okay.

[692] Yeah, that makes sense.

[693] Also, because there's zero crossover so that we don't have to feel threatened.

[694] You're worried about.

[695] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[696] But they have a show called every single album, and it goes through every single album of Taylor Swift.

[697] It's so good.

[698] But one of the hosts is a sports reporter, just happens to also love Taylor Swift.

[699] And on that show, they do a draft, her and her co -host for building their top playlist.

[700] Oh, like the top live gig or the top, like, playlist of songs.

[701] I would say playlist more, like album.

[702] Like, if they were building their own album.

[703] Right, I see.

[704] That's fun.

[705] Building their own album of all of her songs.

[706] But it's the same where if I say, I want trouble, you can't have that.

[707] You can't grab that.

[708] Trouble's off the table.

[709] So it's exciting.

[710] Yeah, that's fun.

[711] I like that.

[712] I didn't want to do it during my egg freezing because I was too emotional.

[713] Too.

[714] It just ended in tears.

[715] It's a really sad album.

[716] Yeah.

[717] Oh, yeah, exactly.

[718] Are you going to relive her concert in cinema form?

[719] I was supposed to go on Saturday, but I am going to New York instead.

[720] It'll be in New York, I think.

[721] My swiftly level does stop there.

[722] I'm not going to use my time in New York to go to the movies.

[723] I think it's about three hours long.

[724] It's long.

[725] Well, I'm really curious.

[726] I need people to report back.

[727] I mean, I know the premiere was yesterday at the Grove.

[728] Right.

[729] Which, whoa.

[730] Like, I have a lot of questions.

[731] about the groves specifically yeah the groves are very so what I mean what is the grove it's a very sort of LA kind of it's a mall I've been to the cinema there it's very beautiful it is this picturesque outdoor mall maybe it is it a good place for a film premiere do you think no because there's so many people and access I just feel like craziness crazy chaotic it would have been out in full force oh I'm yes security would have been high and Beyonce was there that's amazing Beyonce and Taylor at the grove?

[732] Like, what?

[733] That's bonkers.

[734] But I need people to know now that people are seeing it, are there behind the scenes or is it just the concert?

[735] From what I understand, I really review, it's the concert.

[736] So there's nothing extra.

[737] You see the whole show.

[738] I think they cut two songs that were in the set list that they shot.

[739] But no, it's not like there's interviews and behind the scenes.

[740] It's the gig again.

[741] Okay.

[742] That's the vibe.

[743] You're either on board with that or you're not.

[744] Well, it's tricky as someone who saw it.

[745] Yeah.

[746] Do you want to relive it sort of with popcorn and a bit cheaper, probably?

[747] A bit cheaper to see it.

[748] Good for people that couldn't pay for the actual concert, much cheaper, accessible.

[749] And the reviewer that reviewed it said that the audience was a bit like they were at a show.

[750] They were standing up.

[751] They were singing, they were dancing, which sounds kind of great.

[752] I love that.

[753] So I like that aspect to it.

[754] Okay.

[755] Yes, I'll probably see it once it comes out on DVD.

[756] DVD.

[757] Oh, do you know they officially, Netflix officially stopped sending their DVDs, end of an era.

[758] That is mad.

[759] It is mad to think when Netflix began with like this, yes, sending out discs.

[760] I couldn't believe they still were.

[761] Like when I just saw it, it's like, oh my God, that's still a thing.

[762] Some people, my parents have still got a DVD player sat there.

[763] I have one too for my screeners.

[764] I applied to work at the video store when I was in high school and I wanted the jobs.

[765] so bad and I didn't get the job and I remember I've never felt so sad not getting a job before it's all I wanted to do because did you want to go in like the porn section no no it was just so exciting I could like take home any videos in my day VHSs VHSs I could take any of them home it was like heaven all the new releases I could take all the posters home oh that's exciting but yeah didn't get the job went to Julia Moore and she didn't even like the movies Julianne Moore.

[766] Julia.

[767] Oh, so annoyed.

[768] Oh, my God.

[769] Anyway, Fantasy football.

[770] That was fun.

[771] I feel like I actually did learn a fair amount.

[772] Good.

[773] Thanks, Rob, for contributing.

[774] That was very helpful having you.

[775] I was worried if you weren't here to be able to like and check some more facts into the thing.

[776] Yeah, because David didn't learn anything.

[777] That's what I feel like David is less, I don't think he really tried to learn much about.

[778] I don't think of what I really like about fantasy football.

[779] I like the scene.

[780] I think it's so incredible that all these people are into this.

[781] thing that's just fantasy.

[782] And I agree with the person who is talking about male friendship and it is really important to cultivate that and I do think this is a good way.

[783] We know what you like about fantasy football which is the open arms.

[784] The open arms.

[785] Just so many arms and tattoos.

[786] Yeah if you want to, the podcast that these people have, Mina has a podcast called ESPN Daily and that's a lot about football and Robert Mays was the guy talking about male bonding and his show It was called The Athletic Football Show.

[787] And if you're into fantasy games, they're really big.

[788] I remember one thing about you doing the draft is you just kept talking about how attractive the players were or not.

[789] I was looking at the players.

[790] That was all you were concerned with at the draft.

[791] I was looking at like how cool they looked, like what their hair was doing.

[792] Who was the hottest?

[793] Oh, I don't remember their names.

[794] Their faces would pop up and I'll just sort of click.

[795] Because suddenly there'd be pressure to pick.

[796] You know, suddenly it's your turn and there's just a sea of people in front of me. Oh, wow, you judged a lot of books by their cover.

[797] All of them.

[798] That's all of those books.

[799] Because all the numbers meant nothing to me. There were numbers there, but what do you do with them?

[800] Yeah, you didn't even pick the right positions.

[801] No. No, no, I was picking wildly.

[802] Yeah, this team would have really sucked.

[803] It does.

[804] What if, though, it would have been so cool if it ended up being awesome.

[805] I know.

[806] Hey, it might still.

[807] Yeah, we don't know.

[808] No, he didn't, he doesn't have a defense kicker or tight end.

[809] Do you need those people?

[810] Yeah, I mean, you're missing 30 points.

[811] You don't need it.

[812] in this version of life where it's magic.

[813] You know what?

[814] It's really good because it's not real, so I'm kind of okay with it.

[815] You're good.

[816] All right, how much more American am I?

[817] Same, less, more.

[818] I'm going to say you're same.

[819] And that's nice of me because I want to say you're less because you put in a small amount of effort here other than going to my friend's party.

[820] I did.

[821] But it was also really nice to hear all their voices.

[822] I like it when there's crossover.

[823] It's a good group.

[824] Good friends, good people.

[825] 75 % American.

[826] That's a brand from a Kardashian.

[827] See ya.

[828] Bye.