Structuring Your Perceptions (part two)

[0] Welcome to episode 47 of the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

[1] I'm Michaela Peterson, Jordan's daughter.

[2] As you know, we've been in Russia for the last month and a half for emergency treatment for my dad, but guess what?

[3] We're in Florida.

[4] We're back in North America.

[5] I am so happy to see the sun.

[6] Dad's continuing to recover, but it's pretty unpleasant.

[7] He's having some good days now, though.

[8] I'll keep you posted on any new developments.

[9] I hope you will.

[10] enjoy this episode, it's called Structuring Your Perceptions Part 2, and was recorded in Canberra, Australia, on February 15th, 2019.

[11] Structuring Your Perceptions Part 2, a Jordan B. Peterson 12 Rules for Life lecture.

[12] If you isolate animals and you set them up so that they can voluntarily give themselves electric shocks, if you isolate them, they will do that just for entertainment.

[13] So, well, boredom is not such a great thing.

[14] So, anyways, here you are.

[15] You're going to this side of the room.

[16] You're going from point A to B. This is always what you're doing in your life.

[17] You think, that over there, that's way better.

[18] That's where I'm headed.

[19] Now I've got an open pathway, and I'm flooded with positive emotion, knowing that my pathway towards that valued end is clear.

[20] So why do you set up your room?

[21] room.

[22] It's a good example.

[23] I've talked to people about cleaning up their room.

[24] Well, a room is a machine, in a sense.

[25] It's a set of tools and obstacles.

[26] It's a place to do things in, right?

[27] Sleep.

[28] That's an important thing.

[29] You should set your room up so you can sleep.

[30] It should be dark.

[31] Right?

[32] You should have dark curtains, not too much light, not too much noise.

[33] Maybe it should be halfway's comfortable and not, you know, completely god -offly filthy, all of that so that you could sleep there because, you have some things to do and your closet should be organized because you got to put on your clothes and your clothes signify who you are to yourself and other people and so they're part of the toolkit that you use to interact with the world and maybe there's other things that you're going to do in your room maybe you work in there a little bit so your office needs to be set up in some intelligent way so that every time you have to do something difficult you don't have to do 20 other stupid difficult things like dig through 30 pens that don't work to find one that works because that might be enough just to stop you in your tracks right you want to set the place up so that the goals are there and the pathways are clear and then when you go in that room it makes you full of positive emotion it's a place that's set up where someone sensible has planned to do valuable things and by the way that also makes you less anxious which is a nice plus because anxiety comes about when there's too many pointless choices in front of you.

[34] And so you want to set yourself up so that you have a certain elegance in the manner in which you've constructed your surrounding.

[35] It's devoted towards something.

[36] Well, then you have to figure out, well, what should it be devoted towards?

[37] Okay, so that's the next thing.

[38] What should it be devoted towards?

[39] You've got to be devoted towards something.

[40] Why?

[41] Not devoted towards something?

[42] No positive emotion.

[43] That's not good.

[44] not devoted towards something anxious and upset that's not good and then it's worse because if you just sit there and do nothing you try this for six months just don't get out of bed for six months and see how you feel and I've talked to people like that the chronically depressed people you know who really haven't got up for months and it is not good like your default mental state for not actively engaged in important things is nihilistic, pain -ridden, frustrated, disappointed, ashamed, guilt -ridden, and miserable.

[45] And so it's not only that you need a valued place to go and a pathway there so that you're not anxious, it's that if you don't have that, then in comes the suffering.

[46] And there's no talking yourself out of that, and that's no picnic.

[47] No one wants that.

[48] And so this isn't optional in some sense.

[49] I mean, it is because you can be miserable.

[50] And I'm not saying that everyone's depressed for the reason I just laid out.

[51] There's lots of reasons to be depressed.

[52] I'm not trying to oversimplify it.

[53] I'm just telling you one way that you could be depressed if you want to be.

[54] And so, okay, so this is a pretty good pathway, and I'm pretty positive about it.

[55] But then if I go here, see, that's a lot more annoying.

[56] because now there's something in the way and I'm not that annoyed about it and the reason for that is because I know that if I do this I can, this is a good trick so watch this carefully you can do this at home see I can just go like that see and see and so that didn't bother me very much hey and thank you thank you I practiced that for a very long time and so the reason it didn't bother me very much was because I've already set out a friend of reference that's what would you call structuring my perceptions and the frame of reference was while I was over there and it wasn't so good and I was going to go over here and it was better and there was an obstacle in the way because at that moment those things there weren't that wasn't a table with two bottles on it it was an obstacle to my progress now you can tell this this is how you respond in your day -to -day life man you're in your car you're driving along some person cuts you off And what do you think?

[57] Oh, that's someone, man, if I met them in a bar, we'd have a beer, we'd be friends, they probably have a lovely family.

[58] We'd tell a few jokes.

[59] It's like, no, no. It's like, that son of a bitch just cut me off.

[60] Right, so you take that whole person and you turn them into an icon.

[61] And the icon is annoying thing in your way.

[62] And then, like, who knows?

[63] Like, maybe you're just off to the corner store to buy some beer.

[64] You know, it's just not that vital, but that doesn't stop you from reducing the person to an annoying obstacle and so well and that's part of the way that you perceive and so this could be an annoying obstacle but it's not very annoying because I can walk around it now if I if there was somebody like a basketball player pro basketball player standing here and every time I tried to get around him he blocked me well that would be a lot more annoying because I wouldn't be able to calculate a pathway to my goal and so then I would have to either learn to play basketball a lot better than I can, which would take a long time and be rather pointless, or I would have to re -conceptualize my goal -directed perceptual structure, and that would mean I'd have to flip my world upside down.

[65] Okay, so now we're going to talk about that, flipping your world upside down a little bit.

[66] So a simple story is, I'm at point A, and I'm going to point B, and I went there.

[67] That's a simple story.

[68] And a little more complicated story, more interesting story, is I was at point A, and, you know, it wasn't so great, and I was going to point B, and I was pretty much on board with that.

[69] And as I went there, something I didn't really expect happened, and I had this little weird side adventure, and then I calculated my way through it, and I got either back on track or ended up in a better place.

[70] That's a meta -myth myth, as far as I'm concerned.

[71] That's a fundamental mythology of the human race.

[72] It's something like the, it's like the fall from paradise and the recovery of paradise, fall into a catastrophic situation and then recovery.

[73] It's the same thing that happens when Moses leads his people from the tyranny of Egypt into the desert and then hypothetically into the promised land.

[74] It's like, you're going somewhere, it's good, you go, you don't understand the world very well, the bottom falls out, down you plummet, maybe you're dead, that's the end of that story, maybe not.

[75] Maybe down there you learn some things.

[76] You put yourself together, you make yourself stronger, you come back, you have a better vision even, you're more competent.

[77] That's the story of the human race.

[78] It's really the story of the human race.

[79] And so it's good to know that too, because it's good to know that when you're going somewhere and you fall, you'll fall somewhere, you fall into chaos, technically speaking.

[80] And that's a domain of disinhibited emotions and possibilities, disinhibited perceptions, and a disinhibition of the structure of the world, it can be really overwhelming and extraordinarily stressful, but it's also a place of great possibility because new things can emerge from it.

[81] And your job is to confront that, if you can, to know where you are, you're now in chaos, you're now in the underworld, you're not in Kansas anymore, and you need to know that, and you need to know that that's a place, and you need to know that you're the sort of person that could actually prevail in a place like that if you keep your damn eyes open and if you're paying attention well it also helps if you articulate yourself very carefully and tell the truth in a situation like that because if you've fallen off the map let's say what you want to do is put together a new map and you want to bloody well make sure that you got it right so attention and truth will get you out of chaos and that's useful to know because you will definitely fall into chaos okay so let's say well forget about me one to go over there.

[82] Let's talk about something that I want in a more profound way.

[83] So I'll build a little hierarchy of value.

[84] So you know how if you're, if you're shooting an arrow and you shoot at a bullseye and you know how some bullseys are, there's the center bullseye, which is quite small, and then there's a slightly bigger circle around it that's a different color and a bigger circle around it and a bigger circle around it and a bigger circle around it.

[85] And then there's an implication there that there's sort of a hierarchy of goals.

[86] The real goals, damn center, right?

[87] But better hit the edge than to miss the target altogether, and maybe better to draw back your bow and aim than not to play at all.

[88] Okay, so that's kind of a nice allegory that you can derive from archery, and it's interesting.

[89] The word sin, by the way, is an archery term from the Greek, Hamartia.

[90] Hamartia means to miss the target.

[91] And so it's good to think about the target, and it's really good to think about the target because you are a target -seeking creature, a visually in particular, your eyes are pointed at whatever it is that you're after.

[92] And we're really interested in this.

[93] We're always looking at other people's eyes to find out what their eyes are pointing at because we want to know what they're after, because that's how we understand them.

[94] That's how we align ourselves emotionally with them.

[95] That's how we see how they see the world.

[96] And so its aim is really, aim is of fundamental importance.

[97] You've got to have an aim.

[98] Question is, what should you aim for?

[99] Okay, and that's when you get into a discussion of something approximating a value hierarchy.

[100] So let's try that.

[101] Here's a value hierarchy.

[102] So this is my value hierarchy, part of it.

[103] I'm a writer.

[104] So I'm sitting at the keyboard.

[105] What am I doing?

[106] Well, I'm not thinking, not at the highest level of resolution.

[107] At the highest level of resolution, I am moving my fingers.

[108] I don't even really know how I'm doing that.

[109] It's automatic.

[110] You know, I don't know representation bottoms out at the level of motor movement.

[111] So that's at the bottom.

[112] That's sort of like where the mind hits the body.

[113] Okay, so I'm moving my fingers, and what I'm doing when I'm moving my fingers is producing words, but not words, like the right words, let's say, I'm trying to produce the right words, but not just the right words.

[114] I'm not just typing letters.

[115] I'm not just typing words, although I'm doing both of those.

[116] I'm typing phrases, but not just phrases, sentences, and not just sentences, paragraphs, right, and not just paragraphs, but chapters.

[117] Okay, so that's a, you see, that's a bullseye, right?

[118] Because the center is, well, A, B, E, D. But the next thing out of that is the word, and then the next thing around that is the phrase, and then the sentence, and then the paragraph, and then the chapter.

[119] And then let's say the book, while the book, hypothetically, has a point, right?

[120] what's more annoying than reading a book you think well that didn't have any point and you think well that's kind of an interesting way of putting it a point why would a book have a point and the answer is because it should point you somewhere right and you think about all the things we do that point us places like we watch sports all the time team sports why well because we see people pointing and aiming cooperating and competing together in a civilized manner most of the time pointing and aiming at things and we're so thrilled about the fact that people are pointing and aiming at things that we'll go and watch them do it and we'll pay for it and then they point and aim at something then they hit it and we're so thrilled that they hit it that we all stand up and clap it's like oh look he he pointed at something and aimed and hit it's like it's time for like a dozen beer at the pub and and you know and a riot in the street it's like What the hell?

[121] Well, the issue is it's actually rather important.

[122] It's so important to point and aim at things that it constitutes the basis of most of our entertainment.

[123] It's really important.

[124] So, okay, so what do you, so letter, word, phrase, sentence, paragraph, chapter, book.

[125] Okay, so why might I write a book?

[126] Well, I wrote 12 Rules of Life because, well, partly out of curiosity, I wanted to see what would happen, but partly because I'm a clinical psychologist and a professor, and I thought, well, I could use my academic knowledge and I could provide practical information to people, and I could distribute to a lot of people, and then their lives would be maybe somewhat less horrible and slightly better.

[127] That would be a reasonable aim.

[128] So that was the frame within which the book fit.

[129] And so that would be also, there's a superordinate frame outside that.

[130] Well, it was part of my duty as a scientist, say, and a practitioner.

[131] So that was outside of that.

[132] And then what was outside of that?

[133] Well, maybe I was trying to be a good citizen.

[134] How about that, you know?

[135] What would that mean?

[136] Well, you take care of yourself, take care of your family, take care of your community.

[137] That's not a bad start.

[138] So to be a good citizen, that's a higher order goal.

[139] why am I moving my fingers on the keyboard to be a good citizen like it's a small part of it but it's not nothing it's in fact it's everything that's that's where the that's where the tire hits the road right that's that's the reality that tiny point where where where your where your mind meets the world through your body that's what changes things then you think well what might be on top of that well how is it that you're a good citizen what are the characteristics of being a good citizen being a good person.

[140] That'd be the next thing.

[141] Be a good person.

[142] You think about the good people that you see on movies, heroes that you see on movies.

[143] Okay.

[144] Well, what's the characteristic of someone who's heroic?

[145] Well, here's one.

[146] They try to get themselves under control.

[147] You know, they try to make themselves a little less ignorant, because we're all a little more ignorant than we could be, so it might be nice to rectify that.

[148] And then we try to get our own malevolence under control.

[149] You know, to some degree, they say it's harder to rule yourself than a city.

[150] And anyone with any sense knows that.

[151] It's like you're not everything you could be.

[152] You're not trying as hard as you could.

[153] You're not focusing as well as you should.

[154] You're not articulating as well as you might.

[155] And you do things that are cruel, unnecessary, deceitful, arrogant, and deceptive.

[156] Resentful too.

[157] And cruel.

[158] All of that.

[159] It's like a little less of that would be good.

[160] So that's part of that moral structure.

[161] Then you might think, well, fine.

[162] work on yourself, you're plenty of trouble.

[163] Then there's the society around you, your family and broader society.

[164] Same thing.

[165] It's not like your family is characterized by entirely angelic dispositions.

[166] No doubt there's all sorts of trouble that in principle you could be at least not making worse.

[167] You could be rectifying and you might think, well, that would be worth devoting some time to.

[168] I could make my family function better.

[169] and then maybe I could also face the tyrannical and malevolent element of my culture a little bit more effectively.

[170] You know, and that might be, well, by standing up for yourself a bit more at work, by having a strategy at work for the development of your career, or for the development of the company itself, or a vision for the enterprise itself.

[171] It depends on the scale of your ambition, but part of your job, and make no mistake about this.

[172] This is part of your job.

[173] know, our culture is predicated on the idea that we're all sovereign individuals, right?

[174] That sovereignty itself, which is authority, political authority, but authority in general and competence resides in each of us, not the king, not the emperor, not the aristocracy, none of that.

[175] It's reverted down to us.

[176] Each of us has that divine value that makes us the cornerstone of the state.

[177] And whether or not the state moves towards something approximating habitable or degenerates into something approximating hell is dependent on you.

[178] Now, and you and everyone.

[179] It's how the world's structured.

[180] Each of us is a center of the world, and we're all charged with that responsibility.

[181] So that's the next part of the bull's eye, let's say.

[182] And then outside of that, there's more.

[183] it's like, well, you've got culture, you're trying to put it in order wherever you can within the confines of your ability, without thinking about that as trivial because it's not.

[184] You think, well, there's some natural problems that might need to be solved.

[185] People are hungry, people are sick.

[186] You know, there's lots of problems with the world, environmental problems for that matter.

[187] There's diseases we could get rid of.

[188] You know, nature, for all its beauty, has got its hands around our neck and is squeezing constantly.

[189] there might be things that you could do to, well, improve your own life, your own health, the health of your family, but also to push back against the detrimental forces of nature itself so that there's a bit more positive breathing space for you and the people around you.

[190] That'd be good.

[191] Why not do that?

[192] It beats the hell out of the alternative, as far as I can tell, and then it imbues those little things that you're doing with meaning.

[193] It's like, well, what am I doing?

[194] Moving my fingers on a keyboard.

[195] It's like, words, paragraphs, words, senses, paragraphs, chapters, books, right, to restructure the tyranny of things, to straighten myself out and maybe to help other people with that, to push back the catastrophe of nature, that as well.

[196] And so that imbues that with meaning.

[197] And you want things to be imbued with meaning, right?

[198] Because life is hard.

[199] Life is suffering.

[200] Life is mortal suffering, right you're in this you're all in right you're betting your life on the outcome you need something to make the fact that this is your life worthwhile and maybe you need and it's death we're talking about and the suffering that goes along with that you might need something pretty damn potent as a antidote to that to stop you from despair and all the terrible things that go along with it and so you're called upon to do things that are beyond you in order to have to be engaged in something that meaningful and then you make the world a better place too.

[201] And so then we come to the very outside of that.

[202] And I think this is the outside.

[203] This is as far as it goes, or at least as far as I can tell.

[204] So you confront yourself and you confront nature and you confront culture.

[205] But fundamentally, you confront the unknown itself.

[206] You confront potential itself.

[207] And that's what you are integrally as a being.

[208] That's what your consciousness is.

[209] You know, like people, scientists will tell you, well, we're deterministic creatures.

[210] You know, we follow the Newtonian laws of physics, A causes B and B causes C. And it's like, that does not look like how your brain is set up.

[211] So things that you've practiced intensely, you're pretty deterministic.

[212] Like when you're driving, you're not thinking, or walking, you're not thinking consciously a lot about what you're doing.

[213] You might be thinking about where you're going, that's fine.

[214] But you're not thinking about the micro movements and all that.

[215] That's all become automated.

[216] It's deterministic.

[217] But when you wake up in the morning, man, and your consciousness reappears on the scene, you know, like the sun rising in the morning, which is a very common metaphor for the reemergence of consciousness, what you see in front of you is the day and the multiple pathways of the day, the multiple opportunities of the day, right?

[218] Some branching off into what's clearly positive and some branching off into what's clearly negative.

[219] And you know what those are.

[220] You think, yeah, you know, there's some things I should get to today.

[221] if I don't, tomorrow's going to be worse.

[222] And maybe you shrink away from that, right?

[223] You put the blankets back underneath your head, or maybe that's the time for the first joint of the morning because you don't want to give that any consideration.

[224] But you know, it's like there's some things I need to get at or things are going to get worse.

[225] And so there's some real existential terror in that.

[226] And then there's the positive part too, which is, hey, look, there's a field of opportunity here in front of me. And, you know, if I was careful and awake and articulate, it and I had my vision intact and I got up and put myself to it, then who knows what I could transform the potential that's in front of me into.

[227] And so you've got both of that.

[228] What is that?

[229] Well, I think it's a choice between good and evil.

[230] That would be in terms of your own personal morality.

[231] It's not good to shirk your responsibility and to let things deteriorate and to avoid doing the good that you could do.

[232] That's not good.

[233] And it is good to do the reverse and so that's the story of good and evil and it's the story of heaven and hell to some degree too because you could be working at making things slightly more heavenly than they are and at least somewhat less hellish and that would be a start and that would seem to be something that might grip and motivate you and make it worthwhile to get out of bed and so and so and that's what your consciousness does it literally that this is how I think it works is that what you see in front of you you're not determined by the past and you're not a clockwork machine and the world isn't made out of objects that's not how it is the world that you confront is made out of potential it's made out of possibility that's how you treat each other too you know you bother your kids you're not living up to your potential what the hell does that mean your potential where's that well it's what could be oh I see it's it's some reality that isn't here that could be that's so important that that's what I'm calling you on and your kid is completely taken in by that, if they have any sense, they're ashamed.

[234] It's like, yeah, you're right, I'm not living up to my potential.

[235] They don't doubt that that's a reality, and you tell yourself the same thing.

[236] You know, when you wake up at 3 in the morning, I'm not living up to my potential.

[237] Well, who's calling you on that if it's not your own conscience?

[238] If it's not your own knowledge that there's more to you than you're allowing out into the world for cowardice and for whatever reason.

[239] So you have this potential in front of you.

[240] Okay, and then this is how this ends.

[241] So I've been very interested in mythological stories.

[242] I did a biblical series last year.

[243] The first lecture was on the first sentence in Genesis.

[244] Three -hour lecture on the first sentence of Genesis.

[245] Turns out to be a relatively important sentence.

[246] There's an idea in Genesis, the beginning, and the idea is this.

[247] The idea is that here's how to look at the world.

[248] being.

[249] Here's how to look at reality.

[250] It's a field of potential.

[251] It's unstructured.

[252] It hasn't yet been called forth into existence.

[253] There's a structure that can call it forth into existence.

[254] That's represented as God in the Old Testament.

[255] Whatever God is, is the structure that can interact with potential, Tohu -Wabohu, and call it into being, to generate order from chaos.

[256] and there's a process that is involved in that and that process is logos it's the word it's courageous truth it's something like that it's the ability to confront the potential to make a determination that you're going to make it good to pay attention to it carefully and then to speak it into being in the proper manner and so that's what happens in Genesis and God does that over about a seven -day period and every time he does it he says and it was good And that's a very interesting thing too.

[257] That's really an interesting thing.

[258] Because here's a theory.

[259] And man, this theory might be true.

[260] And if it's true, it's like the most important theory that there is.

[261] It's like life is hard.

[262] It's brutal.

[263] It can take you out.

[264] It can embitter you.

[265] It can make you cynical and cruel.

[266] It can motivate you to do things that are so highness that if you watched yourself doing them, they would permanently damage you.

[267] That's what happens when you develop post -traumatic stress disorder.

[268] It's no damn joke, you know, and you need something to combat that and say, well, what do you combat that with?

[269] Well, you got this potential in front of you, so what do you do?

[270] You confront it.

[271] What with?

[272] Courage, attention, and truth.

[273] And what's the consequence?

[274] Then it's good.

[275] What if that was the case?

[276] What if that was the case?

[277] If that was how the world was literally structured is that we have the potential in front of us and the decisions that we make.

[278] day -to -day as conscious beings, determine whether things tilt off into some hellish direction or move towards the good.

[279] You say, well, what's the evidence for that?

[280] Well, it does seem to be how your consciousness works.

[281] It is the reason that our whole culture has decided that you're the cornerstone of the state and that you have the right and the responsibility to vote and to make decisions about the direction of society itself.

[282] It's the way that you treat each other.

[283] If you treat each other properly, I mean, you want to...

[284] your friends to assume that you have moral responsibility and capability.

[285] You want people that you love your children to adopt responsibility to live a proper life and to tell the truth and all of that.

[286] You assume that they are responsible moral agents, at least to some degree.

[287] And if you don't do that, you don't get along with people and you don't get along with yourself.

[288] And if your society doesn't assume that you should do that, then your society doesn't work.

[289] And so that's all pretty powerful evidence that there's something to this.

[290] So, okay, so that's you.

[291] And then it's capped off in the first chapter because the way about, about, oh, third of the way in, after God's done making the world, he makes human beings.

[292] And then he says something, so we've already decided, well, you confront potential and you make order out of chaos.

[293] That's the structure of reality.

[294] And then if you do that with truth and courage and attention, then what you make is good.

[295] And then there's the capstone, which is men and women are made in the image of God.

[296] Well, the question is, well, okay, do we believe that?

[297] And people ask me, do I believe in God?

[298] And I hate that question, and I always answer it, I usually answer it by saying that I act as if God exists, which I think is a perfectly bloody good answer, by the way.

[299] And I would say, well, let's assume just for the moment that there's something to that, is that you're made in the image of God.

[300] Well, here you are, you're a conscious being.

[301] We don't know how that happened.

[302] Without that consciousness, we couldn't even conceptualize reality.

[303] The fact of your consciousness is what gives reality its tangibility.

[304] The fact of your consciousness, it's the wrestling of your consciousness with the potential that's yet to be that seems to transform the world into what it is.

[305] It's like, why is it so unreasonable to assume that it isn't, it's inappropriate metaphorically to think, well, men and women are made in the image of God.

[306] I don't know a better way of putting that, and it puts a heavy moral responsibility on you, but that's a good thing, because now you have something to do.

[307] Think, well, I need something to do.

[308] What's the meaning of life?

[309] Well, there you go.

[310] There's the meaning of life.

[311] You've got potential in front of you, infinite in scope, enough to kill you, that's for sure, and to take you out in every possible way, but full of possibility that God, only knows the degree to which you could unravel and develop, right?

[312] You have both of those.

[313] That's the dragon and the gold.

[314] You have that right in front of you all the time.

[315] And that's your adventure.

[316] And you're not called on to be happy and to mildly amuse yourself, right?

[317] You're called on to get the hell up and add it and to confront yourself and to confront nature and to confront society and to confront the unknown and to combat the dragon and to find the gold that it hides and to share that with everyone and to move the world away from hell and to move the world towards heaven and that's the purpose of existence and that's enough purpose if you pursued that wholeheartedly then the despair would go it would be replaced by a burden that's for sure right because it's no joke to conceptualize that to understand that it's really on you you know those little mistakes you make that you know our mistakes you think well you know i'm just one person among seven billion it's like no no no that's not how it's structured it's not how it's structured you're a center of the world just like everyone else and the weight of the world rests on your shoulders and it's time in the morning to get up and get at it and to make things better because there's lots of things that could be made better and you're the creature that could make them better and we need to know that we need to understand this from the bottom up and we need to start taking ourselves with the requisite seriousness and to find that meaning in our our lives, that meaning that's associated not with happiness, a foolish notion, disappears as soon as you're not happy, but with something like ultimate responsibility, because we have an ultimate possibility that resides within us in ways we don't understand, and there's no limit, perhaps, to what we can manage if we were willing to manage it.

[318] Thank you very much.

[319] You're feeling good here in Australia.

[320] Yeah, yeah, I'm getting healthier again, man. man, maybe by the time that Q &A rolls around, I'll be in top shape.

[321] Yeah.

[322] And we'll see how that goes.

[323] You ready to roll for that thing?

[324] A lot of people have been asking about it.

[325] Well, it's strange because I haven't been interested or excited in talking to journalists for a very long time.

[326] I found it very stressful, but I am, and I got to be careful, because I don't want to get cocky about this, because that's a big mistake.

[327] But I am looking forward to the Q &A.

[328] So, well, we'll be a very careful.

[329] see how it goes.

[330] And I'm going to be careful, you know.

[331] But, but I'm curious to see how it's going to work out.

[332] I think I can keep my temper regulated, and I think I can concentrate on the questions.

[333] And so, and I also think that the epithets have been exhausted.

[334] And so now the playing field in some sense has reversed because people have thrown every accusation that they could manage at me and it's not working and it's starting to turn around so we'll see what happens and we'll try to be careful and have some fun maybe.

[335] All right you're Nazi moving on.

[336] To what extent can you forgive someone?

[337] Is there a limit based upon damage or harm that is unforgivable or should you always forgive people?

[338] There are places you can go that it's it would require a miracle to come back from.

[339] You know, there's this guy named John Wayne Gasey.

[340] He was a serial killer of children and a clown.

[341] Lovely combination.

[342] And he got caught.

[343] And he got caught.

[344] And he asked for the death penalty.

[345] And no wonder, like, how do you come back from that?

[346] You know, like, there's a religious idea that at any point you can be forgiven and redeemed.

[347] But it also, the requirement for that is that you've atoned for your sins.

[348] You know, and like, just for an ordinary person to really think about that, you know, that you, in order to put yourself together and to place yourself where you should be placed in the order of being, that you have to have taken responsibility for all the things you did that were beneath you.

[349] That's rough, man. That's psychotherapy in part, you know.

[350] It's not just that.

[351] It's moral reflection, and it's the desire to live a proper life.

[352] But when you've done, when you've gone those places, like, how do you atone for that it's and then if you can't how can you expect anyone else to forgive you it's not it maybe people could if they knew how but they don't you don't know how how would they know how maybe god knows how maybe not too there are some dark places that people can go having said that you don't want to carry more burden than you have to you know if someone's being terrible to you well first of all maybe you need to get away and second of all maybe you need to understand how and why that happened you need a philosophy of evil often to understand that let's say generically then you need to understand the particulars of that for your own life and then maybe that rebuilds your map a bit but maybe you stay away from that person you know because but you let it go if you can because otherwise they just keep hurting you.

[353] You know, that's the thing is Freud said that his neurotic subjects, patients suffered from reminiscences.

[354] They were burdened by the past.

[355] They couldn't let it go.

[356] The memories kept flooding back.

[357] Not helpful.

[358] Now, I don't know if it's precisely forgiveness that enables you to free yourself from that, but you do need to be freed from it.

[359] And at least letting go is some of that freeing.

[360] But, you know, the darker the crime, the more the saint is necessary to perform the act of forgiveness.

[361] And often it's just too much to ask for.

[362] So, generally it's better, you know.

[363] If you can trust the person, everybody makes mistakes.

[364] The best game is, you cooperate with me, I cooperate with you.

[365] You make a mistake.

[366] I whack you in proportion to the seriousness of the mistake.

[367] You tell me why you made the mistake and how you're not going to do it again and you mean it and then we cooperate again.

[368] That's tit for tat, that's modified.

[369] I think it's modified tit for tat that's come out on top of those sorts of game simulations of morality.

[370] That's a good one.

[371] You need trust, but God, you know, I think that to forgive in an unqualified sense it's beyond the scope of a normal person.

[372] What do you forgive Hitler?

[373] It seems to me that it's a sin to forgive Hitler.

[374] You know what I mean?

[375] Especially given the lack of atonement, it's not like he was sorry for what he had done.

[376] And I would also think that someone like that, to become cognizant of what you've done and then to be sorry for it would kill you.

[377] You know, it's just too much, to become aware of that.

[378] I don't know how you would bear that.

[379] It would be hell.

[380] If there are any politicians in the crowd right now, is there anything you'd like to say directly to them?

[381] If you guys want to raise your hands, feel free.

[382] Sure.

[383] There's lots of things I could say.

[384] Don't think that your constituents are stupid because they're not you know one of the reasons that this group we've been affiliated with an intellectual dark web so called loose group that sort of emerged spontaneously the reason that it's been successful a reason that it's been successful is because we don't think our audience is stupid we think they'll come along for the ride and it turns out that they do and so And then what else would I say to politicians?

[385] Don't think, oh, well, I'll do what I need to to get elected, and then things will change.

[386] It's like, no, that won't happen, because what you'll do is you'll do what you need to get elected, and then you'll become what it was that you needed to become to get elected, and then you'll never recover from that.

[387] And that's how life works, you know.

[388] And a lot of you people at work are thinking the same way, you know.

[389] It's like, well, I have to go along with the game for now.

[390] It's like, and look, I know there are times when you have to bide your time, you have to think strategically, you can't be impulsive, you have to be careful, you have to be a warrior, you know, if you're trying to set things right, but don't be thinking that, well, I'll just go along with it for now, and then at some point I'll be in a position where I can really change things, because by that time there will be very little left of you.

[391] And I see this, like I've seen this in universities all the time, you know, the The undergraduates say, Jesus, I got to write what the professor wants because otherwise I won't get a good grade, which, by the way, is mostly a lie because there are very few professors that are so corrupt that they will downgrade you if you write a good essay that they don't agree with.

[392] There are some, but not most of them.

[393] And if they do that, there are ways of calling them on it.

[394] But anyways, you say, well, whatever, I'll just write what the professor wants.

[395] It's like, no, you won't.

[396] You'll change the way you think while you do that.

[397] because that's how it works when you write.

[398] And then you're a graduate student and you think, well, I can't make waves, man, because I got to publish papers.

[399] And so I better do what I'm supposed to do and keep the truth for later.

[400] And then you're an assistant professor.

[401] You haven't made tenure, and you think, Jesus, I better keep my head down because if I get myself in trouble, then I won't make tenure.

[402] And then you make tenure, and you're a coward, because you've trained yourself to be a coward for 20 years, years.

[403] Not everyone, by the way, but you've trained yourself to be a coward for 20 years.

[404] And even though now you're secure, man, you've got like the most secure position maybe in the Western world being a tenured professor.

[405] It's like, what are you going to do?

[406] You're going to be brave and stand up to the administration?

[407] It's like, I can tell you, I see damn little of that.

[408] And so you think, isn't that interesting?

[409] You give people maximal protection, right?

[410] They really can't be gone after they have secure jobs and they can pursue pretty much what they want and and by the time they get them they've sold themselves out so badly that there's nothing left of them so that's a bad strategy and it's the same if you're a politician it's like if you think that there's something more powerful if you think that there's something more powerful than the truth all that means is that you're better at lying than you are at telling the truth because how the hell can there possibly be anything more powerful than the truth.

[411] Like if the truth is a reflection of reality, if the truth is a reflection of reality, like what is it?

[412] You against reality?

[413] Well, good luck.

[414] You know, like you can contend with reality and you can shape it as we already pointed out, but there's a lot of reality and there's not that much of you.

[415] And if you have the truth, which is not an easy thing to align yourself carefully with the truth, then you have that on your side.

[416] And there isn't anything more powerful than that.

[417] And if you have the truth on your side and you lose the election, that doesn't mean you lost the war.

[418] It just means you lost a battle.

[419] You might be way better, you might be in way better position in a year or two years, because the truth is a funny thing.

[420] You know, it doesn't necessarily manifest itself like a genie who grants his wishes right in this second.

[421] Well, I told the truth and I got in trouble, and I'm never going to do that again.

[422] It's like, no, that isn't how it works.

[423] It's a lifetime commitment to a certain mode of being.

[424] You know, and it's associated with the last thing I said in the lecture tonight.

[425] It's like, and this is the requirement of faith, I would say.

[426] You need faith because you don't know everything.

[427] So you have to have faith, because you don't know everything, and it fills the gap.

[428] And so here's something to have faith in.

[429] The truth will prevail.

[430] now you think oh my god you know i've told the truth and it's got me in trouble so like where's the prevailing there and the answer is well it isn't going to prevail like this second and and each time it's a it's a it's a it's a it's the strategy of a warrior it's a strategy of someone who who wants to win the war and who's willing to lose some battles which you will definitely lose and maybe they'll make you stronger the loss of the battles and wiser.

[431] It's like, so if you're a politician out there, it's like, don't be thinking that your people are stupid.

[432] That's a mistake.

[433] And don't be pandering to the worst in them, because you want to call forth the best in them, and you as well, and they'll appreciate that.

[434] And don't be afraid to allow yourself with the truth and say what you have to say, because you'll find that if you do that and you do it well, that you'll have more allies than you know what to do with, and those who come after you will be defeated.

[435] So that's what I would say to the politicians in the crowd.

[436] This is a strange transition, but do you ever think of retiring?

[437] I have no idea what that means.

[438] I mean, I had this client, eh?

[439] I liked him quite a bit.

[440] He was one of these guys took quite a while for him to get his life together.

[441] He didn't really grow up until he was like 40, but he did.

[442] Then he got a job, and he had a wife and kid, and he was doing a pretty good job of it.

[443] He had a good job, and he was doing a good job of it.

[444] And he was thinking about retiring when he was 50 or 55 or some damn thing.

[445] And I said, well, what do you envision when you retire?

[446] He said, well, I see myself, you know, on a tropical beach with like a Mai Tai in my hand.

[447] And I thought, well, I think I told him this.

[448] I said, that's not a retirement plan.

[449] That's like a travel poster.

[450] It's like, okay, let's think this through, since it's your life.

[451] Okay, so now you're 55, right?

[452] And you're a white Canadian guy.

[453] Okay, so first of all, you go down to a tropical beach, and you strip down to your swimsuit, and you sit out there with like an endless days worth of Mai Tai's.

[454] And the next day, you're so damn hungry.

[455] over that you wish you were dead and your sunburnt to a crisp and you look like a complete bloody fool right your nose is peeling and you're laying in bed thinking i don't know what you're thinking time for another dozen mitis or something who knows well what's that how long is that going to work like it doesn't even work a day it's not a plan it's it's it's the delusion of a 16 year old you know and so and not a very bright one at that so so so I don't know what it would mean to retire.

[456] And I think it's important when people are thinking about it.

[457] I mean, retire used to mean you'd worked in the coal mine till you were 42.

[458] You had black lung.

[459] You could hardly stand up, and soon you were going to die.

[460] Okay, so you retired.

[461] Well, why?

[462] Well, what else were you going to do?

[463] You know?

[464] But now, maybe you're 60, you got 30 years ahead of you.

[465] You know, because I think that's about life expected.

[466] for a 60 -year -old person, 30 years.

[467] It's like, better have a plan, man, because that's a long time.

[468] And sitting on the beach with a Mai Tai in your hand, that's not a good plan.

[469] That's just cirrhosis.

[470] So, you know, I'm going to keep doing interesting things until I'm done whenever that is.

[471] And, you know, I want to pay as much attention as I can to my family while I'm doing all these other things.

[472] but I'm not out of, long as my health holds out, I'm not out of things to do.

[473] There's all these problems we talked about tonight to solve, and, you know, I want to stagger forward against that as long as possible, because there isn't anything better to do than that.

[474] And I'm after what there isn't anything better to do than, because why not?

[475] You know, again, like I said tonight, this is an all -in game.

[476] You've all staked your life on it.

[477] right it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's dead serious you should do the best thing you can conceptualize why not what are you going to lose is it going to kill you well yes but at least you at least you have the nobility of the effort and god only knows what you might be able to accomplish in the meantime you know um i read socrates apology which i would very much recommend it's very short.

[478] You know, the people of Athens wanted to kill him, the aristocrats, because he was annoying.

[479] He was always asking questions and telling the truth.

[480] And so he's very annoying, corrupting the youth with his truth -seeking.

[481] Well, that's what they said.

[482] You're corrupting the youth.

[483] And they told him, look, we're going to put you on trial, you old goat, in six months.

[484] And what that meant was, get out of town.

[485] You know, because otherwise, why would they just come and murder him in his sleep.

[486] They didn't want to kill him.

[487] They just wanted the old goat to go away.

[488] So they gave him lots of warning.

[489] And he went off and had this consultation with this faculty, internal faculty, he called his Damon, which I think we would equate with conscience.

[490] He said he had a voice in his head, a voice that always told him that if what he was doing was wrong.

[491] It didn't tell him what was right.

[492] It just told him what was wrong.

[493] And he said, he always listened to it.

[494] That was what made him different than other people.

[495] If his damon said, that's wrong, then he shut up, or he didn't do it.

[496] And it made a vow, you know, like it was a divine vow.

[497] And that's what made him Socrates.

[498] And that's what made the Delphic oracle said that he was the wisest man in Greece, you know, and that's why we still remember him.

[499] And he went off and had a little chat with his damon once he got the court order, and it said, don't leave.

[500] And he thought, what the hell do you mean don't leave these people are going to kill me it's like what kind of suggestion is that it would be wrong to leave that was that was that was the that was the response so socrates did what a philosopher would do who'd already made a vow he said well you know in for a penny in for a pound i already decided that i'm going to listen to this voice no matter what i must be wrong somehow And he thought, well, okay, if I was wrong and I should stay, why?

[501] Well, he said, I'm old because he was in his 70s, maybe older at that point.

[502] And he thought, well, that's not so good.

[503] I'm a philosopher.

[504] It's like next 10 years, you know, it's going to be kind of rough on me and start losing my faculties.

[505] So that's going to be kind of miserable.

[506] And well, now I can put my affairs in order.

[507] I can say goodbye to everybody that I love I can tie up my life and I can say to the jurors what I have to say when I am put on trial and so he thought he told all his friends no not leaving and they weren't happy man they wanted him to leave because they liked having them around no he said I Damon said stay I'm staying so he stayed then he went to court and the transcripts there's two of them Plato wrote one and who's the other one it'll come to me in a moment there's two separate transcripts very short they're like court transcripts and it's amazing because Socrates now having decided that he wasn't afraid of death or he was more afraid of something else I suppose which is different just flipped the table it's no wonder they wanted him gone he just went from jurist to jurist telling them everything he had seen that they were doing that was corrupt and wrong.

[508] You know, he told one guy, well, you know, you're a corrupt, and you've been a horrible father, and your son is a wasterel and an alcoholic, and everybody knows it.

[509] And six months after I'm dead, he's going to destroy your life, and you're going to deserve it richly.

[510] And that was like one story, and he had like a dozen of those.

[511] And then he went through everyone and said what he had to say, and then you knew why they wanted to kill him.

[512] And he said, you know, bring on the hemlock, and that was that.

[513] and what well so what's the point of the story if you live your life enough maybe that's enough you know because that's another way of thinking about death you know I mean I'm perfectly happy to try to maintain my youth to the degree that that's possible in my health but I have a suspicion that if you lived your life fully right if you exhausted yourself if you if you made use of all the potential that was around you and within you, that when you were done, you'd be done.

[514] And you could say, enough.

[515] Now, I don't know that, right?

[516] But I can feel that more as I get older.

[517] Because I've had kids, and I wouldn't have kids again.

[518] Not because I didn't love having kids.

[519] I did, but I did that already.

[520] And it doesn't call to me anymore.

[521] I don't have an ambition to have kids again.

[522] Grandkids, that's fine.

[523] You know, and I've had one career, and I wouldn't have that career again, because I already had that career, you know, and so maybe you can exhaust yourself, and I guess that would be the hope for retirement, is that I can just exhaust myself, and so that when I'm done, I'm done, and I can just let go and think, you know, that was a hell of an adventure, which is, I think, the right thing to think about your life, not about happiness.

[524] That's weak.

[525] it's like it was a hell of an adventure you know maybe it'd be worth maybe it'd be worth doing it again even if I had the option that was Nietzsche's idea the myth of the eternal return you should live your life so that if you had to live it again and again into eternity that you would say yes to that as a possibility that's something something frightening to behold so if you have your adventure well that's what I want I want to continue my adventure and there's no retirement in that.

[526] There's transformation.

[527] That seemed like the right ending, but you want one bonus one.

[528] All right, I like this one.

[529] Have you thought about just giving free copies of 12 rules for life to the protesters outside?

[530] Do give them free copies.

[531] You know, I've been in situations where I've faced like this animus -possessed naked hostility you know often with journalists and often with protesters and I don't like it what I see isn't the person I see what they're possessed by and I don't like to encounter that And so I'm not inclined to, especially not in a mob, one -on -one it's different.

[532] Sometimes you can get underneath the puppet master, let's say, and have a conversation with the person.

[533] But that ideological possession, especially in a group, it's like a league of demons.

[534] it's not something I'm interested in in exposing myself to any more than necessary and generally it's not productive it's responded to as if it's currying favor and so they can buy the damn book just like everybody else that's the 13th rule by the way buy the damn book yourself on that note guys I'm going to get out of the way and make some noise for Dr. Jordan Peterson thank you guys very much Thank Steve.

[535] Thank you very much, everyone.

[536] It was a pleasure to be here.

[537] Good night.

[538] If you found this conversation meaningful, you might think about picking up dad's books, maps of meaning, the architecture of belief, or his newer bestseller, 12 Rules for Life and antidote to chaos.

[539] Both of these works delve much deeper into the topics covered in the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

[540] See jordanb .com for audio, e -book, and text links, or pick up the books at your favorite bookseller.

[541] Remember to check out Jordan B. Peterson .com slash personality for information on his new course.

[542] Tag Jordan or I on Instagram to share your results from the Discovering Personality Course.

[543] I really hope you enjoyed this podcast.

[544] Talk to you next week.

[545] Follow me on my YouTube channel, Jordan B. Peterson, on Twitter at Jordan B. Peterson, on Facebook at Dr. Jordan B. Peterson, and at Instagram at jordan.

[546] B. Peterson.

[547] Details on this show access to my blog, information about my tour dates and other events, and my list of recommended books can be found on my website, Jordan B. Peterson .com.

[548] My online writing programs, designed to help people straighten out their pasts, understand themselves in the present, and develop a sophisticated vision and strategy for the future, can be found at self -authoring .com.

[549] That's self -authoring .com.

[550] From the Westwood One podcast network.

[551] Thank you.