69 - Never A Mannequin

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hey, this is exciting.

[2] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[3] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[4] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[5] Who killed Saz?

[6] And were they really after Charles?

[7] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[8] This season, murder hits close to home.

[9] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[10] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[11] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[12] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[13] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfenakis, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[14] Only murders in the building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[15] Goodbye.

[16] Want a podcast?

[17] Hey, let's podcast.

[18] Hello, welcome to my favorite murder.

[19] That's Karen.

[20] that's Georgia hi um I'm in my element right now I'm double fisting petting cats and it's my dream that's how Georgia parties yeah um we just got back from our the last weekend of our first tour that's right thank you Washington DC thank you Baltimore thank you Philly to Ford slash glenside Pennsylvania we had the best weekend we met so many great people so many incredible people they sent us home with so many lovely presents oh my my suitcase was crammed and uh we just gave step in many of the presents that you gave us to give him yeah after we picked what we wanted out of his gift yes there's lots of stuff that we didn't tell him about that we're just keeping he'll never know little mustache things that we get to have um but we did want to mention it was very exciting because this time it felt like and maybe it was the area that we were in oh yeah Washington yeah we met we met a forensic analyst we met a criminal defense attorney who listened to the show not just on the street right yes they came to the show they bought VIP tickets they had a hi hi how are you take a picture with us and it was very exciting to be meeting actual people what is that I don't know my microphone oh my god George's microphone's leaving um they were people who are in the business of stopping crime who listen to to this podcast, which we were very, very honored by and thank you all for what you do and for listening.

[21] But the most exciting part, I'll talk slowly so that while Stephen fixed George's microphone, she can still participate.

[22] Don't tell all the story without me. Stephen, hurry.

[23] Thanks, Stephen.

[24] Wow, that was fast.

[25] The most exciting for, well, I'll say for me, I think, for you too.

[26] Oh, I started crying, crying.

[27] When we were in Baltimore, the Rams Head, thank you everybody at the ram said that was a really cool like rock and roll venue totally so hilarious like you could smell this sticky beer from decades past yeah the pixies were playing the night after us which we were freaking out about um we kept saying we were trying to we wanted to leave something for kim deal somewhere in the dressing room but anyway um these two guys walk up in the meet and greet and flip out uh an ID their federal ID and it turned out two FBI agents were at the show and he knew to flip his ID open because we'd lose our shit.

[28] So he walks towards us, like, in the cop -est cop -us cop -manner.

[29] I think he was, like, six -foot -six.

[30] Listen.

[31] Both of them were.

[32] Both of them were incredibly handsome.

[33] They were two hot FBI agents with big smiles on their faces, doing a bit for us.

[34] And they looked like FBI agents, young ones that, but were cool.

[35] Yes.

[36] Not that, you know what I mean.

[37] Yes.

[38] Well, no, they were great.

[39] And they were super funny because they immediately were doing a bit about the girl that did a hometown and Georgia this was my favorite part is I was come immediately just like I had no idea what to say and I was completely starstruck where I'm like I looked at this guy's ID but Georgia yells across me and goes move your finger your fingers covering your face and it was it was just the way he flipped open his like wallet looking ID FBI agent ID his finger was over his own face, which is like a trick people use when they're trying to trick you into, like, getting into your car.

[40] Totally.

[41] I've always.

[42] He started laughing because she moved his finger, and of course, it was him.

[43] I did not believe him.

[44] And I was like, that's a fucking age old.

[45] Everyone knows that trick.

[46] And then it turns out it was not a trick.

[47] They were two real deal FBI agents who worked for, they worked for the anti -terrorism squad.

[48] I don't know if that's a thing.

[49] I doubt it's a squad.

[50] gang, right?

[51] The anti -terrorism gang.

[52] And then the reason the other guy was with him was because the first guy who covered his face was supposed to go with his girlfriend or fiancé.

[53] But she got deployed to Afghanistan.

[54] I think she was the forensic pathologist.

[55] Maybe.

[56] Yeah, she definitely worked in the biz as well.

[57] But she was also in the military because she got deployed to, was it Afghanistan?

[58] It's totally Afghanistan.

[59] And we were just like, you're, you're, the three of you are rock stars.

[60] You're living a life very different from ours.

[61] And also we talk about what you do all the time as if we're experts and now you're here as like audience members.

[62] But you're actually the experts.

[63] It was the coolest experience.

[64] I asked so many of the experts who were like, I do this.

[65] I asked most of them, are you mad at us?

[66] Yeah.

[67] And it turns out none of them are mad at us.

[68] Oh, and then the cop.

[69] No, wait.

[70] Was that Austin?

[71] The cop with the eyeball killer?

[72] That was...

[73] Oh, yeah.

[74] That was at Moontower, right?

[75] It was Moon Tower.

[76] No, I think it was D .C. with the pregnant chick.

[77] No, that was...

[78] No. Are you sure?

[79] I think it was D .C. Because the cop, they were having a cop convention.

[80] Remember?

[81] You're exactly right.

[82] And that's why he was there.

[83] So there was the guy with the eyeball killer, that we did a couple, a few up long time ago.

[84] Yeah.

[85] I don't know how many episodes we've recorded.

[86] I'm like, this is number 10, right?

[87] He wanted to meet us.

[88] He, like, tweeted that he was in town for a cop convention.

[89] And I was like, oh, God, are you mad at us?

[90] Or mad at me because I have no idea what I said about you in the episode.

[91] But his daughter -in -law came in pregnant and was like, no, he thinks you're great.

[92] Here's a signed copy of his book.

[93] But I'm sorry.

[94] All of that is right, except.

[95] it wasn't the pregnant girl that was separate.

[96] There was three pregnant girls.

[97] There were three girls.

[98] The eyeball killers wasn't it his stepdaughter?

[99] Yeah, something like that.

[100] And it was her and her two friends.

[101] Yeah.

[102] I mean, it doesn't matter.

[103] Whatever.

[104] It doesn't matter.

[105] Except for that we have these great experiences with people for 45 seconds and then another experience happens right after.

[106] It's very hard to keep them all track.

[107] But we like them all.

[108] The bummer was he was there and heat waiting outside, but we had no ability, like it was the end and we didn't have the ability to get him inside.

[109] I feel like someday soon we're going to post the Philly episode.

[110] It was the last episode and it was sweet as fuck.

[111] I thought some girl that I should be able to name recorded the Stay Sexy Don't Get Murder Part that the crowd yells with us.

[112] And I put it on Instagram and it's just so sweet.

[113] It's like, sweet as it's like, sweet.

[114] It's just like this great moment.

[115] Oh, cool.

[116] I love when we do that at the end.

[117] It's so much fun.

[118] It's very fun.

[119] And all three shows were great.

[120] And all three audiences were like, one was better than the next.

[121] They were just like, they were all so great and fun and excited.

[122] And thank you all so, so much for being there.

[123] And yes, stop asking us on Twitter.

[124] We're going to come to your town.

[125] Yeah, we will.

[126] Yeah, there's a planned fall tour.

[127] Yeah, we just want to keep doing it.

[128] Yeah, listen.

[129] So saying the word Australia, and that's all I'm saying.

[130] that's right and say the word new zealand because that's also in there too and new zealand and yes we're coming to your california no your state we're coming to your personal california anyways it's what your california is like this is my california but maybe texas is your california right yeah like who what's your california what's your california um we also thank you for sharing the news that ian brady is dead that was your murder that's the moors murder yeah um i thought he was dead who cares he was never going to get out i mean whatever he died okay he died i mean it's great because he's a murder and he deserves to be dead but okay now he is um but the thing a lot of people were very excited about is the very recent casting of zach afron to play the part of ted bundy they were excited but there were some weren't some you know they just you guys seem to want to know what our opinion was because you had said um who was the guy that you said should play him never mind but no recollection even though i remember us talking about it okay i'll be able to remember it stephen's like i don't listen to this podcast what do you think of it i i fucking dig it at first i was like huh but then i remember you know he does these goofy movies but he's also done some cool shit and he's a good actor seems like a cool dude and then someone put a photo side by side of like a young Ted Bundy and like a photo that kind of matched of Zach Efron and it was just exactly what it was supposed to be.

[131] Yeah.

[132] So if he can, if he can act it, man, it'll be legit.

[133] And I tell you now he can act it.

[134] Because I may have, I may have been keeping this, uh, to myself up until this point, although I can't imagine why because I, I love the movie.

[135] Did you date him?

[136] Yes.

[137] He was my lover in the mid 90s when he.

[138] was 12 um the movie 17 again i believe it's called with him and tom lennon where he plays his own father yeah he is so brilliant in it that must be the one i was thinking of yeah it's such good acting it's a disney movie and it's a body switch you know i'm young again yeah it's it's basically zach effron doing an impression of matthew perry and it is so fucking great yeah my sister made me watch it for the first time she's like you have to watch it so you'll like it and i have to trust her when she says that because she's always right and it is it's just masterful acting by him he doesn't get enough credit for what a good actor he is and he tries to do interesting stuff yeah my only thing was uh april texted me my friend april richardson of go bayside podcast fame she texted me it was like i know i'm the one millionth person to tell you this but did you know zach effron and she's like and what do you think and i said you're the millionth person that's asked but um i'm you're the first person i'm answering and I said I'm I believe in him 1 ,000 percent he just has to beef down because he's too cut right now it's like it's that like 70s cut which is like super skinny but also muscular but there's no sinewy that's it yeah yeah he definitely has to do that but he's like a bike rider as opposed to a weightlifter I'm just yeah I'm just excited to see it I mean there's not really a good one at all there's the Mark Harmon one which is fond of but it's like a made for TV movie so it's not like gruesome and realast realistic right it's not it's not scholastic it's not scholastic it's not scholastic it's not bombastic it's none of those things um I think it'll be good also because I think people are just like let's ride this fucking true crime wave as hard as we can so yeah people are seeing that there's so much interest they've just combined two great things which is like what a girl's like true crime yeah exactly Totally.

[139] Let's do this thing.

[140] Speaking of, listen, next week, we're going to talk about the D .D. Blanchard and Gypsy Rose documentary that's on HBO.

[141] So go watch it.

[142] And then we're going to watch it and talk about it.

[143] But it's definitely something we want to chat with you about.

[144] Yes.

[145] I can't wait to see it.

[146] It's called Mommy Dearest and Dead.

[147] Yes.

[148] So go to HBO.

[149] It's on HBO.

[150] I think so.

[151] I'm pretty sure it is.

[152] Pretty sure.

[153] Go watch that.

[154] Yeah.

[155] Go watch yourself.

[156] bunch of people have watched it and asked us about it Georgia did her homework I did not so I didn't want to out you I need thank you did you hear me say that we're gonna watch it yes it was that's called teamwork and I appreciate it but Karen didn't do it and I did it can you imagine oh my god what a cant I would be there was something in there that really wanted to do that though because no I was like how do I get around saying this well that was masterful I appreciate it yeah I pretend that I had neither thank you you took that hit Stephen, did you watch it?

[157] Not yet.

[158] All right.

[159] Get on it.

[160] It is on HBO, though.

[161] Okay, good.

[162] Two against one.

[163] Mimi, Elvis?

[164] It's always two against one in this setup.

[165] No, but I can't wait because I believe Jamie Lee did it at our New York, our live New York episode.

[166] Which we never aired, right?

[167] Did we not?

[168] I have no idea.

[169] I have no idea.

[170] Oh, you did.

[171] We did.

[172] Okay.

[173] Since then Stephen's here to tell us what our life is.

[174] Yeah.

[175] but I on that particular story no information is enough so the fact that someone has put together an actual documentary and has her um gypsy today talking oh my god there's an interview a prison interview and the whole time I was just like do I believe her you cannot tell and then you're like is she crying tears or is she just sounding like and there's so much shit and then I didn't know the background at the mom so that was really fucking interesting that's in there as well.

[176] Oh my God.

[177] And I can't wait.

[178] I know.

[179] It's, I very much liked it.

[180] And the, and the exciting part is, um, which a bunch of people told us and we discovered, the director, I don't have her name handy, is a murderino.

[181] Right.

[182] Who somebody posted a thing that said, look when the, when this, um, famous documentary filmmaker just shows up on our Facebook page.

[183] Like commenting on it.

[184] Like, like, thanks.

[185] I'm glad you guys liked it.

[186] Yeah.

[187] So cool.

[188] It's so cool.

[189] So we'll tell you guys who it is next week.

[190] We'll write it down.

[191] We'll have a whole prepared thing.

[192] We'll talk.

[193] Imagine.

[194] We'll chat.

[195] Oh, I wanted to say, so my, in the vein of we love it when just suddenly people like come out of the woodwork that you would never know have a murder and then they tell you about it.

[196] Like your uncle did that, right?

[197] Like, oh, I caught the fucking.

[198] Oh, yeah.

[199] My cousin Marty is the one that lifted the Richard Ramirez's fingerprints at the last breaking and entering in San Francisco where they figured out who the nightstocker was.

[200] And then you were like, well.

[201] why didn't you tell me?

[202] And he's like, why would I tell you that ever?

[203] So I have a similar one.

[204] My cousin Nancy, who's like pretty significantly older than me, you know, I think in, I don't know.

[205] And she's just like a normal, really lovely normal person and married with kids.

[206] She teaches old people how to use the internet.

[207] Like she's just, she's just a really lovely woman.

[208] So she then emailed me. Sounds like she's very patient.

[209] It does, doesn't it?

[210] She emailed me and says, hi, Georgia.

[211] I listened to one of your, my favorite murder podcast today.

[212] Um, one of the questions, was something about someone you knew, a new one murderer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[213] Well, back in the late 80s, early 90s, I worked at the Peterson Publishing House in West Hollywood.

[214] One of the guys in the photo lab killed one of the models on a shoot.

[215] I knew him when I worked there, but the murder was years after I left the company, but I was an editorial assistant of one of the car magazines, and he'd come by and hand me the photos.

[216] He never smiled, but looked me directly in the eye.

[217] It was creepy.

[218] And then I knew, anyway, and add another relative who knows a murder, murderer, love Nancy.

[219] And then I was like, I think this is the one I know, which is such an interesting story.

[220] It's Charles Rathbun.

[221] Yes.

[222] Who killed Linda Sobeck in the fucking desert, right?

[223] And he said, oh, I hit her with my car on accident when I was showing her some cool moves and I buried her body because I got scared.

[224] And it's like, no, you fucking didn't do it.

[225] And then like they found another one of his bodies close by that as well.

[226] Yeah.

[227] Was it in the desert?

[228] Was it in Angelese National Forest?

[229] Yeah.

[230] But I think it was like a open thing.

[231] I don't know.

[232] Open plane type of thing.

[233] Right, right, right.

[234] It was just far away.

[235] Like, he would basically get them to come and go on quote unquote shoots.

[236] And maybe that was just in my imagination.

[237] I like pictured it as a desert.

[238] So, yeah, that's what it looks like.

[239] It doesn't.

[240] It was what we know is it was far away.

[241] Yeah.

[242] Because I don't know my, I'm pretty sure, though, that that was a city confidential for Los Angeles about the death of Landa Sobeck.

[243] Yes.

[244] And I told her, oops, I messaged her back and was like, I've fucking gone into a rural area with a guy who wanted to take photos of me when I was younger and didn't get murdered.

[245] And so that murder is just, I know what it's like to suddenly be like, oh, fuck.

[246] This was a mistake and nobody knows I'm here.

[247] Yes.

[248] Yeah.

[249] So scary.

[250] And I don't know this.

[251] I thought, I kind of knew this person.

[252] I don't know him at all.

[253] Right.

[254] Yeah.

[255] Yeah.

[256] Yeah.

[257] Well, when you're young, you think you're friends with everybody.

[258] Yeah.

[259] It's just like, oh, yeah, my buddy, that's a photographer or whatever.

[260] It's like, where's he from?

[261] What's, does he have any siblings?

[262] How much do you know this person?

[263] And you're easily charmed.

[264] You don't bring anyone with you.

[265] Right.

[266] You do it by their dictate.

[267] Yeah.

[268] This is how we're going to do it.

[269] This is where we're going to go.

[270] Because you don't know to say, fuck no. Well, also, you're so complimented by the fact that someone's like, I think that you are a model.

[271] Right.

[272] Which I totally.

[273] I, I, I, I, I, admit to that completely of course why wouldn't you yeah that's a big that's a big part of all of that and then the shame of like oh how dare you think that I mean it's the perfect play yeah they have you coming and going listen don't do it you guys unless you're at a well populated place and you meet them there don't get in the car with them right right yes and there's also there was a guy that was doing this and he was actually going up to women at the century city mall remember that one.

[274] And he was saying he was a casting director for the new James Bond movie.

[275] Yes.

[276] And they had it on surveillance, right?

[277] They have him on surveillance.

[278] And he would go to houses that were being, he would get shown the house by a real estate agent.

[279] So he knew it was an empty house.

[280] Then he would have the women meet them at that house and kill them there.

[281] And that's how he got caught.

[282] It's so crazy.

[283] That's amazing.

[284] Can I quickly do a podcast recommendation?

[285] Of course.

[286] And I've said, I've talked about this podcast in its first season because it was excellent.

[287] And then they, I just like listen to the second season in a fucking minute because it was so good.

[288] It's someone knows something, which I think they're calling S -KS now because no one knew anything last season.

[289] Is that the Canadian one?

[290] Yeah, with the guy with the Canadian.

[291] Lovely man. Love him.

[292] Yeah.

[293] So he, the second season is fucking great.

[294] It's really great storytelling.

[295] He has so much empathy, which is, you know, hard to find sometimes in these stories.

[296] his name's um his name is david rigan riggin rigan and he's like helped solve murders in the past he's a documented film like it's it's fucking heartbreaking it's really well done i highly recommend it he has the most charming canadian accent he's so charming and that first season even though there were no hard answers it still is such a great series oh my god it's so good it's hard it's also heartbreaking yeah it's but it's also it never really was solved so it's still so interesting because you don't know if someone knows something or not right and it also shows what these detectives are up against when these homicides come in it's like because you know I do have a lot of guilt about how much shit we talk about detective or police work where it's such armchair quarterbacking and we talk about that a lot but it going through it that way especially that was that one was from the 70s that first season murder of that little boy and it's just like it's you're they're going on nothing they have strands they have basic bits of information and we don't think about the fact that they don't have time it's not like they have the next three months to look into this case they have you know a bunch of other cases going as well and more adding up and they don't have the time to unfortunately give to it by no fault of their own right you know the fact that they haven't hired enough detectives they don't have the money to at the department yeah so it turns into all that red tape stuff that's such a it's such an interesting like the fact that politics affect so many of these murder cases and how much time and attention they get which then folds in the whole thing of when sex workers are involved and they get dismissed or when it's or did she disappear and did she just run away maybe she just ran away yeah that that old kind of 70s like I don't want to do the paperwork she's a runaway the the the sex working and then also just the like when it's a white blonde teenage cheerleader that's in high school, all of the political power goes behind it as opposed to anybody of color, a person that's a sex worker, person that was a drug addict.

[297] Well, what I love about this episode or this season of someone or something is it's not a fucking perfect blonde cheerleader.

[298] She had been into drugs.

[299] She was an exotic dancer.

[300] You know, she was had a temper.

[301] She wasn't, but she still deserves to, she still deserves to, you know, Her mother is, like, the most heartbreaking character you've ever heard.

[302] Odette, which I love that name.

[303] But I got to listen to that.

[304] But yeah, it's not until.

[305] And then there's the thing, too, of like, at the time of the murder, friends and family might not want to talk.

[306] You know, they know things.

[307] They're scared.

[308] But he's, he's looking into it like 20 years later.

[309] And he's such a empathetic guy.

[310] And he's just trying to solve it.

[311] He's not trying to, you know, fuck with anyone.

[312] Right.

[313] And so they talk to him.

[314] Right.

[315] I mean, he's fucking great.

[316] Yeah, he's so good.

[317] So watch someone know something in second season and first.

[318] It's a podcast, right?

[319] Yeah.

[320] Hi.

[321] Hi, how are you?

[322] I'm great.

[323] How are you?

[324] I'm really good.

[325] Is there anything else we wanted to?

[326] I guess my only, the one, and I can't remember if I've said this already, but I've gotten on your recommendation so into the, now I can't remember the name of it.

[327] Which one?

[328] What's it about?

[329] The guy, the Australian guy.

[330] Oh.

[331] Crying.

[332] Mysterious wonders.

[333] Oh, honey.

[334] Yes, mystery's abound.

[335] Mysteries abound.

[336] It is just the most beautiful.

[337] It is so beautifully presented.

[338] He, at the top of every story, he cites his sources.

[339] That's the first thing I noticed where I'm like, ah, yes, that's what we're doing.

[340] But for someone who's just reading articles about mysteries throughout the internet, it's so good.

[341] It's so good.

[342] It's not his stories.

[343] He's doing no research.

[344] He's, well, he's reading articles, but he's, it's performative and it's also, he gets why certain things are interesting.

[345] I don't know.

[346] It's just, I've listened to now probably 20 of them because we've been doing so much traveling.

[347] And it's just the perfect podcast for that.

[348] And it goes all over the place like seven interesting facts about urine.

[349] Or like, you know, why the like mysteries about the moon, which is my favorite fucking one.

[350] It's like these things I never knew about.

[351] Oh, but then also he's the most droning, like a most comforting voice.

[352] So I fall asleep to it every fucking night.

[353] Yeah, I was falling asleep on the plane.

[354] But then there's this one thing he does where like he'll tell the story and then have music in between the next ones.

[355] And for some reason, that music is super loud.

[356] Yeah.

[357] So I keep waking up when the story's done.

[358] It's scary.

[359] But I love it.

[360] Mysteries about.

[361] Okay.

[362] Mysteries bound.

[363] So now we do ours.

[364] Do we go first based on our tour or do we go first?

[365] We did Q &A last time But then we did the live show No wait We did the live show before Q in it Stephen Yeah is this like a reset Or do we go from the tour Should we flip a coin?

[366] Yep flip the Flip the coin The FBI coin Yes They gave us So wait what side do you want The FBI guys gave us These commemorative coins That are so cool looking Yeah I mean they even brought us presents Hot FBI agents Brought us presents It was like the best time It was Oh my God I rarely get, like, dumbstruck where I'm, like, can't figure out one good thing to say.

[367] And I just kept laughing and going, really?

[368] Really?

[369] And, like, yeah, I almost started crying, which I don't usually do.

[370] And then every, like, the next 10 people who we met, I was like, those guys were FBI agents.

[371] Yeah, we just kept saying it.

[372] So what.

[373] All right.

[374] So are you, pick gold or blue.

[375] That's blue.

[376] That's gold.

[377] This says, Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation.

[378] counter terror terrorism division and gang it says no it doesn't the counterterrorism gang you yeah you do it the one in the middle is blue you know what I'm saying and that one's gold yeah so Karen you call it I'll be blue can we flip a coin to see who calls it I'll be blue you be gold okay gold wait you're blue I'm old oh wait but we didn't say what we're flipping to go first or last oh yeah yeah oh so you get you like going first or do you like going last uh I I guess it depends on the story.

[379] Yeah, it does.

[380] Mine's a bummer.

[381] To whoever gets it gets to choose what, who goes first?

[382] Well, this is suddenly really interested in what's happening.

[383] Georgia won that.

[384] So do you want to just pick what you want to do?

[385] I like going first.

[386] Do it.

[387] Is yours a real big bummer?

[388] I mean, yes.

[389] So is mine.

[390] Oh, fuck it.

[391] I mean, it's a murder.

[392] It's like, no, mine's super lighthearted and fun.

[393] Yeah, there's nothing.

[394] It's not like an old one or whatever, but it's a good one.

[395] Okay.

[396] So you just do what you want.

[397] Okay.

[398] Mine's pretty short.

[399] okay um and what this I just love that like we can't even do a coin flip correctly no we're talking amazing we like recommend these investigative journalism like fucking like next level pieces of journalism podcasts and then we're like flip a coin to flip a coin Stephen did we who went first it's just slop it's so enjoyable it's slop in a charming rapper yes for sure you know what I mean I mean, let's hope.

[400] Like, what kind of candy is really gross?

[401] And then you're like, oh, it looks so good.

[402] Remember Rocky Road, which was dark chocolate covered marshmallows and like some weird nut, maybe a walnut.

[403] Chocolate and, oh, fuck, those were good.

[404] Do they not have them anymore?

[405] Oh, I was naming it as a bad one.

[406] Oh, I guess there's no candy.

[407] That's bad, really.

[408] Yeah, I guess you're right.

[409] Let's talk about candy for a half an hour.

[410] I actually, when we were leaving the airport, I fucking will talk about candy skippers.

[411] And when I was leaving the airport, it was in that place where we had traveled so much.

[412] I was so tired.

[413] I was so tired.

[414] And we got back on Monday.

[415] And I was supposed to do a show that night.

[416] I fucking bailed on it because I was like, by the time the show was going to start, it would have been 2 a .m. my time.

[417] And I had been traveling all week.

[418] I was like, what was like thinking?

[419] And you were going to do another podcast on the way home, weren't you?

[420] I did.

[421] We did my other podcast.

[422] Do you need a ride?

[423] I recorded one on the way home.

[424] Honey.

[425] Then I got home when I laid down, all of my limbs turned to cement.

[426] But when I was leaving.

[427] airport I walked by a seized candy cart what you had and I was like I can have seas candy I got this voice in my head that was like it was my birthday I don't even know what I was thinking but I walked up and as I walked around the cart I was just like what you're going to take a pound of candy home and eat it don't they have the singles they they have like smaller boxes but I got around I walked around the whole thing and then I met a lady on the other side and I said there were little tiny boxes of things and I go do you have tiny boxes of nuts and chews and she was like oh no only one pound and I was like okay bye I walked away before anything else happens don't they why don't they give samples in there like they do at regular sees candies because it's like a weird kiosk and they don't you know next time their lollipops are super satisfying yeah those are good except for there's too many flavors I don't like of the lollipops is there a butterscotch I think I like that one yep or coffee there's coffee there's Butterska, I mean.

[428] Listen, when you guys come to California, that's our fucking cease candy.

[429] You just bring it to whenever I see one, I'm like, am I going anywhere soon that I need to bring a box of seas candy?

[430] I know.

[431] You know, that's our Christmas thing.

[432] We're like, that's our Hanukkah thing.

[433] Really?

[434] Yeah.

[435] That's all we do is like, you're going to go somewhere.

[436] You grab one of those two pound boxes and nuts and chews.

[437] And that's like the gift.

[438] I like the soft centers, though.

[439] Do you?

[440] Yeah.

[441] This is perfect with our like dark meat, white meat turkey thing.

[442] We could share a chicken and a box of chocolate.

[443] And everybody's going to be satisfied.

[444] And what was I going to say?

[445] Yeah, we do that too.

[446] Just like a table and there's Jewish cookies and see these boxes of tea candy and everyone just sits around, talks and eats too much and it's the best.

[447] So good.

[448] Shout out to Rugalah, fuck man, which is the best.

[449] Is it word that I just shouted out a cookie?

[450] I love it.

[451] Fuck.

[452] Shout out to a Rugalah.

[453] Rugalah.

[454] Just plain Rugalah.

[455] Rugalah cookie.

[456] Oh.

[457] Ruggla is the lettuce.

[458] Oh, yeah.

[459] I'm not randomly shouting at a lettuce.

[460] It wasn't that random.

[461] It was Jewish cookies, Ruggla.

[462] And that's the one that you got at Michael's, the, the, the diner we went to after the show, right?

[463] No, that was, that was, Baclava.

[464] Sorry.

[465] Get it straight.

[466] I don't care.

[467] Where are we?

[468] Shout out, I'm not sure.

[469] Do you want to start?

[470] Sure.

[471] All right.

[472] Shout out, Mary C. You really made some good candies.

[473] Oh, I love her.

[474] Yeah, I meant the little old lady with the glasses and the shawl.

[475] Was that made up?

[476] I just recently found out that, um, what's the cookie woman?

[477] No, wait, that's not right.

[478] Lorna Dune?

[479] No, one of those people are made up.

[480] Oh, probably Betty Crocker.

[481] That's it.

[482] Yeah, my friend's reading a, um, a documentary on her.

[483] Is that a thing you can read?

[484] Um, she told me that.

[485] Yeah.

[486] Just created by a company.

[487] Yeah, which I think is not fair.

[488] It is pretty fucked up.

[489] Okay.

[490] Hey, this is exciting.

[491] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[492] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[493] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[494] Who killed Saz?

[495] And were they really after Charles?

[496] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[497] This season, murder hits close to home.

[498] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[499] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

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[501] eyes.

[502] Who knows what'll happen once the cameras start to roll.

[503] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Meryl Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, Devine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[504] Only Martyrs in the building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[505] Goodbye.

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[524] Goodbye.

[525] Hey, speaking of fucked up.

[526] Yeah.

[527] This one's a bummer.

[528] Okay.

[529] So on July 30th, 1986, we're in 1986.

[530] I can see the outfit I'm wearing.

[531] We're in an affluent community of Silver Spring, which is located in Maryland.

[532] And 19 -year -old Keith Waddell Warren was found hanging from a tree two days after he was reported missing by his mother.

[533] Keith, who's an African -American, had been accepted into North Carolina Central University and was set to go in the fall, but he was currently home for the summer making money and saving it up to go away.

[534] Handsome, bright.

[535] Everyone said he was a good kid, you know, good in school.

[536] He did have some depression issues, but in his recent past, his parents had divorce, but he had a bright future.

[537] So on, so July 30, 1986, a woman walking her dog, dog found Keith in a wooded area near his family's home.

[538] His body was hanging from a small tree by his neck and the tree was bent double with his weight.

[539] The cord was elaborately hung and anchored around the base of the tree and it was 25 feet then to a small sapling.

[540] So it was like this elaborate kind of hanging mechanism.

[541] And then I'd encircled the sapling's trunk, arched through a fork.

[542] The first paramedic who arrived on the scene said that he immediately knew it was a staged hanging.

[543] And so he didn't touch the body at all he was waiting for the police to arrive nice but the officer and detective who arrived at the scene released that paramedic um the officer stated that the uh this this was interfering with his lunch break and they didn't cordon off the area and the scene was trampled and i of course looked up his name and warning immediately crime scene photos come up oh but you can see in the background of one of them just some fucking shirtless dude hanging out staring at the so they hadn't even taken it down yet and there was a guy you know maybe not even 10 feet just hanging out whoa yeah okay it's like some hippie dude so this is before they understood how but didn't i don't think so it's just it was just yeah i think it when we read about a lot of these fucked up crimes that happens but i don't think that that was a normal procedure i can't imagine yeah let us know cops from the 86 yeah when did they when did they when did they they really know that you had to lock down a crime scene and no one got to come look be near it like a whole like what do they call that establish a perimeter like i want to know as well when did they start wearing gloves and stop smoking at the crime scene yeah pops you know what i mean yes it had to be in somewhere in the 90s because even o j simpson's crime scene was handled without gloves which they definitely should have known by then yes right anyways wow i know it gets worse okay Despite the obvious discrepancies, authorities didn't see anything wrong with the scene.

[544] And after a brief visual inspection, the county department medical examiner determined that Keith Warren had committed suicide.

[545] No autopsy was ordered.

[546] The body was sent directly to a funeral home.

[547] The detective chose it.

[548] And this was all that happened.

[549] Oh, and his body was embalmed all before his mother was even aware of his.

[550] Death.

[551] What?

[552] So that's simply not procedure.

[553] I can't be.

[554] Well, back then, you didn't need to perform an autopsy on a suicide, but it was definitely suspicious.

[555] The embalming, that kind of thing is the parent's decision.

[556] Yes.

[557] And also he wasn't taking it more.

[558] He was taking a funeral home.

[559] I think the funeral director didn't really get any information about what was going on.

[560] So he just thought he was supposed to embalm the body.

[561] But Silver Spring, do you know, a smaller place?

[562] Could they use that excuse that this was like small town?

[563] They're not used to...

[564] From what I can tell, I don't know if it was just the community or what, but it was like 70 ,000 people were there.

[565] Not huge.

[566] No. Okay.

[567] But it was like 40 minutes from Philly.

[568] It was like not far from D .C. So it's not rural.

[569] It's rural.

[570] How do you say that?

[571] You're saying it right.

[572] It's just a weird word.

[573] It's just stupid.

[574] Yeah.

[575] Okay.

[576] So by the six hours after he had been found, his mother was finally told about it, and by then he had been involved.

[577] I mean, that's unacceptable.

[578] I know.

[579] Okay.

[580] When the family asked for his clothing that he'd been wearing at the time, the funeral home informed them that most of it had been destroyed because of the decay of the body had ruined them.

[581] So they just got rid of the decayed body clothes.

[582] Okay.

[583] They were only given his jacket and a pair of brown boots.

[584] And from, I can say from those, from those crime scene photos that I, of course, looked at all of them and almost started crying, because I have to look at them because I'm a fucking weirdo.

[585] He wasn't decayed at all.

[586] He wasn't decaying.

[587] He was found two days after he went missing.

[588] Don't know how long he was up there.

[589] But he looks like he had gotten there recently.

[590] Like, there is nothing about him.

[591] That looks like what you would expect from a hanging, which is a lot of really gross.

[592] test things happened to you, right?

[593] There was no indication that he was to cave.

[594] Anyways, later, when his mom attempted to visit the tree to pray there because she was so fucking heartbroken, she got there and realized the tree had been cut down.

[595] What?

[596] Yeah.

[597] Taken into evidence by the police, which his mother was like, if this is a suicide and the case was closed, which it was, why are you taking evidence?

[598] That's exactly right.

[599] Yeah.

[600] You're taking an evidence.

[601] for a suicide that you don't do you're not taking evidence from the body but you are taking the tree definitely and the tree couldn't be found or maybe it was destroyed in a fire I couldn't really there's not there's no Wikipedia about this there's like not a lot of shit a lot of the articles are just you know the same stuff regurgitated because there's just not a ton of information out there I couldn't believe there wasn't a Wikipedia about this yeah so I had to do a lot of work So Mary had doubts, but it really wasn't until she heard from a friend of Keith's that she really got suspicious.

[602] Thank you.

[603] So Rodney Kendall was a friend of hers and said that he had seen a car full of black males looking for Keith shortly before his death.

[604] Rodney told them they hadn't seen Keith and they immediately left.

[605] Then several days later, Rodney had another odd encounter with a high school.

[606] acquaintance of both of theirs name Mark Finley and he said he seemed pretty urgent.

[607] I thought it was strange because he acted like he needed to find Keith very quickly and I told him I didn't know where he was and he left.

[608] So all these people searching for him weird.

[609] The Maryland County PD refused to hand over the photos taken at the crime scene to his mother because he said they would be too difficult for her to see.

[610] So she's asking to see him and they say no. And they said that she should have a closed casket, too.

[611] So, April in 1992, so this happened in 86.

[612] It wasn't until 92, which would have been her son's 25th birthday, exactly.

[613] Mary found a plain manila envelope on her doorstep, anonymous.

[614] And inside there were five pictures, each showing a different view of Keith's hanging by his neck.

[615] So those are the photos that I saw.

[616] Whoa.

[617] Yeah.

[618] And so it's from the back.

[619] It's, I mean, a close up of his face.

[620] It's just, it's so heartbreaking.

[621] His face is so sweet and, like, young.

[622] So she saw the photos and she found glaring discrepancies, including his clothes didn't fit him that he was wearing, which made her think he was wearing someone else's clothes.

[623] There was no decomposition, which the funeral told her, you know, her home told her there was.

[624] and also he was wearing in the photographs.

[625] Remember they had given him brown boots at the funeral home?

[626] He was wearing white sneakers in the photographs.

[627] What the fuck?

[628] There was a note attached to all these photos that said, don't worry, Mark Finley will be next.

[629] And Mark Finley was the kid who said that he had seen people asking for Keith.

[630] So the family hired private detective Joe Alarcia.

[631] I think, who in addition to these discrepancies also saw that, and this is the fucking point of it that always gives me chills.

[632] So Keith had on the back of his jacket leaves and debris, meaning he, and he didn't land on his back, meaning they started to think that he had been brought there and hoisted it up.

[633] So the family also then hired.

[634] a renowned forensic pathologist Isidore Milacus who exhumed Keith's body and did a toxicology report, which they never fucking did originally, which is insane.

[635] Right.

[636] Like even not an autopsy, a toxicology report is just seems like a basic, you know.

[637] Yeah, if you're just looking for information of what happened.

[638] How did he kill himself?

[639] What state of mind was in at the time?

[640] And also just that the family would want, the difference between somebody who has, hung themselves and somebody who has died under suspicious circumstances, to give the family a story of your son killed himself is a totally different narrative and says something about your son that then you have to live with.

[641] Whereas your son being a victim of a murder is a completely different story.

[642] It's just like, no answers.

[643] No answers.

[644] Yeah.

[645] Well, and someone, you know, there is something too about the fact that they saw a young black man hanging from a tree and immediately, like, suicide where it's like someone said it reminded me of the old south yeah and hangings and not that old i mean it still happened by fucking racist motherfuckers at the time right so to see him hanging suspiciously and i saw it his legs his feet are on the ground and his legs are kind of bent forward so he's almost in like if he were in a sitting position with his legs forward then it got hoisted up a little so he wasn't hanging right and it was definitely like you know indicative of lynching.

[646] Yes.

[647] Is indicative the right word?

[648] Yes.

[649] I mean, yeah.

[650] Great.

[651] But also, it's that thing of, yeah, that's, to rush all of that away.

[652] Not to immediately at the scene say suicide.

[653] No. Nope.

[654] No. No. Yeah.

[655] Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

[656] No, no. I'm agreeing with you and going with what you're telling me and it's very upsetting.

[657] Okay.

[658] Your gall?

[659] I will listen to it.

[660] Gall?

[661] No. Yeah, it is.

[662] Okay.

[663] Shit, man. This is called Question Yourself Corner.

[664] Right.

[665] By Georgia.

[666] So, okay.

[667] Toxicology report analysis reveals abnormally elevated amounts of, here we go, trichloromethane.

[668] Trichloromethane.

[669] Okay.

[670] A solvent found in paints and lacquers and powerful chemicals that are usually found in glue and solvents.

[671] So according to Dr. Isidore Mahalakas, the levels found in Keith's body were more than enough to kill him.

[672] And this is a body that has already been, what do you call it?

[673] Embalmed.

[674] Embalmed.

[675] And buried.

[676] So that was the argument that maybe they came from the embalming, maybe they came from the soil where he's buried.

[677] Yeah.

[678] But it was pretty, it was pretty.

[679] The doctor felt short.

[680] that it was not that.

[681] Because they weren't chemicals used in that.

[682] Okay.

[683] And they weren't, you know, they were at high enough levels that it wouldn't have been absorbed if it was in the soil.

[684] Okay.

[685] So, you know, it's the, it's the argument, is it or isn't it, you know?

[686] But the doctor saying, I'm, I know what I'm looking at, and I know what the situation was, and I'm finding these chemicals there anyway, and that's highly suspicious.

[687] Yeah, but the other side probably were just as sure that it wasn't true.

[688] Well, the thing is once you embalm a body, you can't fucking say anything for sure, which is why you don't rush to embalm a body.

[689] I mean, that one is the biggest glaring thing of that's the biggest fuck up.

[690] Yeah, what do you?

[691] Or cover up.

[692] Yeah.

[693] Okay, for sure.

[694] Okay.

[695] Okay.

[696] Based on the high levels of this chemical in the victim's body, the doctor concluded that severe mental confusion would have resulted an impaired decision making of routine actions.

[697] So he couldn't even decide to kill himself if he wanted to.

[698] Okay.

[699] Um, outside investigators claim that the way he had apparently hung himself was practically impossible due to the small tree and the fact that two ropes were used in the suicide, which I don't totally understand because you can still, if you want to kill yourself and you need two ropes, you can still do.

[700] I guess they were, what they were saying is the way that set up and what it sounded like is they were using one tree against the other, like that it was, yeah, that basically you can't do that by yourself.

[701] So all he would have needed to hang himself was one rope and one tree, not.

[702] And there was nowhere for him to jump off of either.

[703] Yeah.

[704] So I don't, I think it's probably, you know, they were like, well, you can, you can hang yourself any way you want.

[705] But I feel like in the same way that you, when people try to drown themselves, you, you just can't allow yourself to do that.

[706] There's something deep in you that stands up or gets out of water.

[707] Yeah, there's the fight instinct inside of you.

[708] Right.

[709] So there's that.

[710] And then he said, I do not believe that he would have the ability to hang himself.

[711] And for that matter, he would not have the ability to make the decision about hanging himself.

[712] And so he ruled that the death must be investigated as a homicide.

[713] The family appealed to the Maryland County PD and eventually the United States Attorney General Janet Reno for a criminal investigation into the death as well as the subsequent actions of the police department.

[714] All requests have been denied.

[715] Oh.

[716] Yeah.

[717] So here's what I wrote.

[718] So how did Keith die?

[719] And these are kind of taken all over the internet of ideas.

[720] Did he overdose on solvents that were found in his body?

[721] He was at a party with friends.

[722] Maybe they were huffing.

[723] Maybe they were doing drugs.

[724] And he overdosed and his friends panicked and staged his death to look like a suicide to avoid police.

[725] Right.

[726] Which would make sense of his clothes being changed because maybe he vomited all over his clothing.

[727] Maybe there was blood on that.

[728] And so that's why they changed his clothes, including his shoes.

[729] And they just wanted to make it look like a suicide.

[730] Or did someone, you know, come from behind with a rag and that's why he had the solvents inside of him.

[731] So it wasn't his choice.

[732] Yeah.

[733] His backpack had some of his favorite tapes in it, which points to him maybe going to a party.

[734] That's just in my opinion, like, you know, when you're going out with friends, you're like, I'll bring some music.

[735] We're going to hang out.

[736] Right.

[737] back in the, I will say this, in the 80s, you didn't, you didn't travel with tapes.

[738] Like, you would make one mixtape maybe and bring it somewhere, but like, you usually left that either at home or in your car because they were just such a pain.

[739] Yeah.

[740] So he had his backpack, his favorite tapes in it, which makes me think it's someone, he was going to visit someone he knew in that, what, just that I was thinking about.

[741] It's like, party plan.

[742] If it was a party, he would have bought a mixtape.

[743] Yeah.

[744] One or two tapes.

[745] If it was his friends, he'd be like, I want you to.

[746] hear this tape this new one this one's great right do that make any sense i think so that's off the top of my head and clearly just speculation we're just speculating yeah um so okay some people thought that he may have been uh and this is on like you know wiki uh what's it reddit redid and shit that he may have been an informant to the police and he was found out by the local drug dealers which might have been the guys in the car um and they were looking for him and killed him, which makes sense that the cops would cover it up because they don't want everyone to know that they caused a murder.

[747] Yes.

[748] Which is actually, I keep trying to find this murder that I found out about a long time ago.

[749] There was this girl, this kind of small town.

[750] The cops found all this LSD on her and said, you're going to jail forever or you need to be our informant.

[751] And the guys, the drug dealers, she went over there wired.

[752] They found out shot her in the fucking head.

[753] Yeah.

[754] But it took them a long time to find out about it.

[755] I can't find that one.

[756] I think I remember you telling me. about that one.

[757] It sounds familiar.

[758] It's always stuck with me. It's like the sweet, hippie, you know, in the 90s, hippie girl.

[759] Yeah.

[760] Do that, do, do, do, do.

[761] Okay.

[762] So, was it a hate crime?

[763] Very well could have been.

[764] Did he actually somehow commit suicide?

[765] I mean, that's always an option, too.

[766] It's not, it's not gone.

[767] Yeah.

[768] So in a final disturbing twist, the one person who may have been able to answer those questions turned up dead under suspicious circumstances.

[769] Mark Finley?

[770] Mark Finley.

[771] Oh, shit.

[772] When he was one of the guys who came looking for Keith a few days before he died and his mother had received the package that said Mark Finley's next.

[773] She told him and he said to her that he would be by to see her soon and she said, he said, I need to unload.

[774] So maybe he was one of the friends at the party.

[775] Maybe he knew something.

[776] So one month after she received those photos and talked to him, he was dead.

[777] According to police, he died accidentally when he struck a curb on his bike and was thrown off in what was described as a freak accident.

[778] However, according to paramedics who were on the scene, his wounds were not consistent with a bicycle accident.

[779] His wounds were more consistent with being hit by a car or being hit with a baseball bat.

[780] Oh, man. His wounds were greater than that could have been, than that falling would have caused.

[781] Right.

[782] Especially in the location where it allegedly took place.

[783] Yeah.

[784] So his mother, Mary Cui, died suddenly in May 25th in 2009.

[785] And she dedicated.

[786] Keith's mother?

[787] Yeah.

[788] She dedicated, you know, her life after that finding justice.

[789] They spent a lot of money.

[790] They had, what's it called?

[791] awards for finding for information?

[792] Reward?

[793] Yes.

[794] Yeah.

[795] Not awards.

[796] Well, monetary awards or as we know them, rewards.

[797] Yes.

[798] Yes.

[799] Thank you.

[800] Yeah.

[801] Awards too positive for this.

[802] I mean.

[803] Listen.

[804] Um, so she died, never found any justice, but her, but Keith's sister, her little sister Sherry Warren has taken up her mom's fight.

[805] She says that even if he died of an accidental overdone, she still wants the Maryland County PD to be held accountable for their actions.

[806] So she organizes marches.

[807] She is still looking for answers.

[808] There's still rewards out there.

[809] And she just wants answers.

[810] Also, just that idea, it's just that thing of like, if something procedurally is so screwed up that they're taking pictures of a dead body and there's just kind of a dude loitering in the back.

[811] or there's no perimeter on the crime scene or there's no or they're rushing a body to be taken to the funeral home like all of those things they aside from the injustice to this family and to this victim they can't do it that way ever again so it's that idea too that like this it's just that thing of the crime procedure cannot be that screwed up like you just have to learn from those mistakes say it's all a mistake yeah best case scenario It's just a series of terrible mistakes.

[812] Especially because those people who were there at the time are probably not on the force anymore.

[813] They probably retired.

[814] So it's kind of admitting it's a thing of like when you hear on these on like 48 hours and all these things of like cops saying or detective saying, yeah, we did that wrong and we learned from it, it's so refreshing to hear because everyone makes mistakes, you know, and we're fucking big on the 80s.

[815] and 90s and before that being fucked up in terms of you know procedures yeah so it is and it is tough because you know to be involved in in crime in stopping crime you have to be a big tough man who is brave and faces the worst of all society all day every day and so admit it get being flexible and being able to admit mistakes and all those kinds of things don't go along with that Sona.

[816] And I think that's changing too.

[817] It's that thing of like it's the no one's looking for you to be the like Texas Ranger.

[818] Yeah.

[819] Or do every single thing correctly.

[820] Yeah.

[821] People make mistakes.

[822] And it's like, you know, one guy in the, on the force believes it's not what it is.

[823] He's not going to fight with every other guy on there.

[824] He's a woman.

[825] He's not going to fight with his fucking boss.

[826] You know, you get labeled snitch and, you know, right.

[827] Or troublemaker or whatever.

[828] it is.

[829] From what we know on law and order and all this shit, you get put on, you get desk job, desk duty after that.

[830] That's exactly right.

[831] It's all political.

[832] I mean, it's political where it shouldn't be.

[833] But, wow, that's amazing.

[834] I just can't believe there's not more on that.

[835] Yeah.

[836] More on that.

[837] Especially because, well, it also kind of goes to show that the, I feel like in this day and age, because that is such a, um, a black man being hung, hung and having not fully and thoroughly looked into is such a. is so problematic and such a, like, the kind of thing that I think people are working very hard to make sure doesn't get swept under the rug anymore, hopefully.

[838] And to be fair, Case File did an episode on this, like, in January, so it's not nobody's, you know, episode 43, he does, you know, his story as well, so I don't want to not give them a shout out, him a shout -out.

[839] But, oh, yeah, it's fucked up, man. Let's open that back up.

[840] Yeah, I'd love to know the answer to that.

[841] That's crazy.

[842] Mine's fucked up, too.

[843] We did it, Karen.

[844] So rare that you find a murder story that's awful.

[845] I got actually, the first whiff of this I ever heard is from the show Real Detective that we've talked about many times.

[846] So good.

[847] On Netflix.

[848] it is uh yeah it's it is it on netflix i'm not sure it's on regular tv now like i have it just tv and so i have like 10 episodes from regular tv okay then i think only season one is on sorry what you like to call regular tv i mean at this this day and age it's just regular tv but you can also it's on on demand on direct tv oh that's how i watch the one i watch today they fucking hate on demand Why?

[849] Because you can't put it in a, you can't list it.

[850] You have to specifically look for something and then watch it.

[851] Yes, you have to know exactly what you're looking for.

[852] Yeah, I fucking hate that.

[853] I want, there's a new show coming up called like New York detect, or like the FBI in New York or some shit.

[854] Yeah.

[855] And they went immediately to record it and you can't.

[856] It's just, I'm going to forget it immediately.

[857] Oh.

[858] We'll make Stephen remind you.

[859] Listen, Stephen, can you change direct TV, please?

[860] Give DirecTV a call.

[861] You need to start writing some letters.

[862] Yeah.

[863] Okay.

[864] Okay, so Real Detective, try to watch it any way you can find out.

[865] But the reason I loved this episode was not only because it was a Southern California serial killer that I'd never heard of, which is pretty fascinating.

[866] But on this episode, the Real Detective, if you haven't watched it, basically follows the one detective who solves this crime and that detective is there talking about themselves in the 20 years ago or whenever the thing happened.

[867] It's like doing the storytelling.

[868] So it's not like a dramatic reenactment.

[869] No, it's firsthand experience of what it was like for this person to catch this case, go through, be it all these crime scenes, and eventually, thankfully, solve the crime.

[870] And there are reenactments, but they're good.

[871] Exactly.

[872] Because they actually hire great actors because it's not just, they don't just do like reenactments that are silent.

[873] There are whole scenes that they do like scenes.

[874] Talking and everything.

[875] Yeah.

[876] Yeah, it's a really great show.

[877] Okay, so this one is the Riverside County.

[878] The name of him was the Riverside County prostitute killer originally, but I called him the Riverside County serial killer.

[879] And the detective's named Bob Creed, and he is especially as a detective.

[880] He is so empathetic, and he is so lovely and kind.

[881] And the way he talks about all of these victims, it's the, episode starts with him just kind of listing all the victims names like he knows all of them now um so it's that kind of thing where you're just watching a person who this was his life and this he took all of all of these deaths to heart and and the fact that it was taking place in his hometown and his home territory and it's this incredible story so that's refreshing because when you said the name of what it was before the prostitute killer I immediately was like oh well then they're not important So him naming them immediately makes me think that they're important.

[882] It's not only that, but the way they present these murders in on the show, real detectives, they really play down, if not, don't mention the prostitute aspect at all.

[883] So they really are just talking about they found this victim here, they found this victim here.

[884] And when Bob Creed talks about them, he talks about, like he starts out by saying, these were women with families who loved them.

[885] And he talks about the family, they were good families and they loved their daughters.

[886] So it's because all of the, in the Murderpedia articles that I was reading, it's all just prostitute, drug user.

[887] Because you never know the circumstance of their life.

[888] You don't, and the killing fields do that really well when they talk to their families and sisters.

[889] But, you know, I was, when I go missing, is it going to be ex -drug addicts, you know?

[890] Yeah.

[891] Yeah, because I was a drug addict.

[892] one point.

[893] But I haven't been in 20, you know, it's like, like we did, I did a murder when we were doing the live shows and one of them called her a prostitute, but in other places I saw as a masseuse, and it's like, did she cross some lines at her job and they called her a prostitute?

[894] It's just there's so many, there's so many nuances around it.

[895] Well, yeah, and when you boil, like, in journalism and this kind of journalism, when you boil people's lives down to the, to their criminal records or the, like, the basic facts of their lives, what are you choosing to leave?

[896] in and what are you choosing to bring out because there are lots of people who have been addicted to drugs, whether or not they go to jail for it.

[897] There's lots of people on drugs right now that if you died right now and they took the toxicology report, not you, but like anybody in the street, any man in the street.

[898] Stephen, no one kid.

[899] That if they died and they took the toxicology report and they'd be like, well, you're filled with well, buterin and Adderall and did this and that.

[900] And you smoke marijuana.

[901] Copamax and pot and you and you just had four drinks.

[902] So are you a drug user?

[903] And so should your murder matter less because of that?

[904] And that's kind of like I was really blown away because when I was when I was reading these old articles, it was one story.

[905] But the way real detective presents this is so different and it's so modern.

[906] And then this detective on top of it, you love him and you love the work that he's doing because it's just very personal.

[907] So all right.

[908] So this is like, no, that's okay.

[909] I need you to.

[910] And the presentation, or this, like, what I've written up is a combination of me writing down things from this episode of Real Detective.

[911] But it's also, there's an article I found in Murderpedia that gave me a really good timeline and talked a lot about these victims.

[912] And it was written by a guy named David Lour.

[913] His article was called the Riverside Prostitute Killer.

[914] I didn't get a year on it.

[915] But it does seem old because it's definitely from like the early.

[916] 90s.

[917] So anyway, October 30th, 1986.

[918] So there's an area, I don't know how much you know Riverside, like the Riverside City or the county.

[919] Vaguely, even though I'm from here.

[920] Yeah.

[921] It's like, it's weird because it's, it's about an hour and a half, directly south of where we are right now.

[922] And it's, we never go there.

[923] We never go there.

[924] It's halfway between here and San Diego.

[925] It's inland.

[926] Like Elsinore's the big, like, um, this guy.

[927] Yeah, that lake that lake that's nearby it.

[928] is like kind of the tourist nice area and that's where this guy lived okay um but but almost the murder the crime scenes are in and around riverside the city itself okay so there's apparently an industrial area outside of riverside called rubbedo and it's like apparently smoggy and gross and it's all factories so um on october 30th 1986 there's a man who's collecting cans that around that area and he comes upon the body of a woman who's stuffed into a drainage ditch she's covered in blood her clothes are ripped her shreds and her genitals have been mutilated so he runs this man who discovers this horrible crime scene runs to the closest factory to get help and the police identify her as 23 year old Michelle Yvette Gutierrez and she's from Corpus Christi Texas and her autopsy reveals that she suffered severe trauma to anal and vaginal areas, multiple stab wounds were discovered on her face, chest, and buttocks.

[929] And she has ligature marks on her neck, suggesting that she'd been strangled while she was being mutilated.

[930] So bad news right away.

[931] So two weeks later, on December 11th, the body of 24 -year -old Charlotte Jean Palmer is discovered near Highway 74 in Romo land, which is 25 miles away from the Gutierrez murder scene.

[932] And her body was so badly decomposed that they couldn't figure out the cause of death, so they weren't even necessarily related.

[933] In January of 1987, so about a month later, the naked and mutilated body of 37 -year -old Linda Anne Ortega is found along a dirt road in Lake Elsinore.

[934] She had been dead for at least three days.

[935] They found alcohol and cocaine in her bloodstream.

[936] Investigators later discover that she worked part -time in a fast food restaurant, but she also had a rap sheet for drugs and sex working.

[937] Now the investigators are starting to see that they have three similar homicides where the young women are being brutally stabbed to death and strangled to death.

[938] So then four months later on May 2nd, 1987, Martha Bess Young, 27 -year -old Martha Bess Young, is discovered in a ravine not far from the Ortega murder site.

[939] She is fully naked in a spread eagle position.

[940] She also had a rap sheet for sex work and high levels of drugs were found in her body.

[941] And the corner determines that she's been dead for about.

[942] three weeks.

[943] And she had died from a lethal dose of amphetamines while she was being strangled.

[944] So like he injected her with anphetamines while he was strangled?

[945] Or like at some point?

[946] I don't know.

[947] Just that they're both exists.

[948] Like she has a lethal dose in her system, but she, the asphyxiation is what she actually died from.

[949] But, but she also, those things were happening like at the same time.

[950] Got it.

[951] I was picturing it like, like at the exact same time.

[952] yes like he shot her up while he's with one hand on her neck and yeah which probably didn't happen um no but the the the first woman um who was found um michel gutierrez also had stab wounds but she lethal stab wounds but she died from being strangled so they do think that he kills them and attacks them at the same time right i mean it's like all one frenzy it seems like Nice.

[953] Okay, so, um, so then, uh, so then no murders for, oh, like, almost two years.

[954] And then January 27th, 1989, the body of 37 year old Linda May Ruiz, um, who was a sex, known as a sex worker, was discovered on the beach of Lake Elsinor, and, um, her head was buried in the sand.

[955] And the autopsy reveals she, um, has a high blood alcohol level.

[956] and there was sand found in her throat and the cause of death is asphyxiation.

[957] Then about six months later, same year, the body of 28 -year -old Kimberly Little is discovered in Cottonwood Canyon.

[958] Also, she's also known as a sex worker and a drug user, and her autopsy reveals the presence of alcohol and drugs.

[959] the official cause of death is listed as asphyxiation and they find on her they finally find fibers and pubic hairs that are not hers so they finally find some evidence that they can use that they don't know what to compare it against but they're saving it.

[960] It's crazy that with that many victims they didn't have a touch of that even right I mean not as not so far that's listed on this article or that they knew how to lift at that time yeah maybe because it was pretty early what year is it this is in the late 80s so yeah they started in 1987 so they probably didn't know what could be compared like what could be used as DNA so even if there's some kind of saliva or the right they wouldn't know maybe maybe um yeah so uh but also they're starting to I think compare they're starting to keep track of these so it's like they know they can see what's standing out on these victims as they go.

[961] And so they're like, oh, okay, we have a pubic hair that's not hers.

[962] And like they're learning what to look for and what to keep as they go.

[963] Okay, so on November 11th, same year, a local resident discovers the body, bludgeoned and mutated body of 36 -year -old Judy Lynn Angel near Temescal Canyon Road.

[964] And this is just northwest of Lake Elsinore.

[965] And she also had a rap sheet for sex working and drugs.

[966] But they discovered defensive wounds in her hands when she's, when her autopsy is being given.

[967] She also had several blows to the face and ultimately she died of having her cranium crushed.

[968] So then the next month, they find the body of 23 -year -old Christina Lille in Quaylor.

[969] Valley.

[970] Now, she is fully, appears fully clothed and not having suffered any serious abuse or mutilation.

[971] She was, had a record for sex work and drugs.

[972] And at that crime scene, investigators found tire tracks for the first time.

[973] So they made impressions of those tire tracks.

[974] Which I found so fascinating that they think to do that.

[975] But to me, that's like one in a million chance of finding that person, but I guess it can be used once they find someone who think it's a suspect, what kind of car did they drive at the time?

[976] Exactly.

[977] And when it's serial killing, they know they start finding, taking imprints of tire tracks to compare to the other places because they know that eventually there's going to be some that becomes a consistent impression that they're like, okay, this is the, this is the, this is the tire, maybe this is the car.

[978] Interesting.

[979] So, So then when she gets her autopsy, the coroner finds that she had one stab wound to the heart and they didn't notice it at the beginning because she had been stripped and then redressed by the killer.

[980] Oh, so there was no through the shirt.

[981] There wasn't any.

[982] It wasn't a stab through the shirt.

[983] It was underneath.

[984] Wow.

[985] So the cops didn't see it like right away.

[986] Yeah.

[987] Super weird.

[988] Here's a weirder thing.

[989] And maybe the weirdest thing of this whole case.

[990] When they inspected the victim's genital area, they found the killer had put a light bulb up into the woman's womb.

[991] So he shoved it all the way up.

[992] And it was unbroken.

[993] And it was also a very, it was a very kind of different, it was an elongated, light bulb.

[994] It was a different, it wasn't just a standard, it was kind of old -timey looking, it wasn't, it wasn't a common one.

[995] For somewhere and something.

[996] Exactly.

[997] So they now know that he's escalating and he's becoming more, you know, deviant.

[998] He's starting to do weird shit.

[999] That seems like such a big clue that they're almost lucky to have.

[1000] Was she dead or alive when that happened?

[1001] I feel like she must have been dead.

[1002] I think she must have been dead because it took, they said it must have taken a really long time for him to be able to put it up there unbroken.

[1003] Yeah, because she would have been fighting.

[1004] Yes.

[1005] Oh, for fuck's sake.

[1006] So he is then now, the escalation is part of, part of that, them knowing he's escalating is because he's leaving things behind intentionally and he's degrading them more than average because he was, you know, the degradation of being left, you know, often spread eagle.

[1007] often half naked, in ditches, in drain it, you know, in like on these places where he's just saying these people are garbage with how he's leaving them.

[1008] But now he's adding to it even more in a very upsetting way.

[1009] Okay, so then on the morning of January 18th, 1990, so it's actually only a month later, but it's the next year, investigators get called to a scene east of the I -15 in Lake Elsinore.

[1010] a jogger had found the half -nude body of a woman who is identified as 24 -year -old sex worker Darla Jane Ferguson.

[1011] She had been strangled so severely that she nearly bit off her own tongue.

[1012] Oh, fuck.

[1013] I didn't know that was a thing.

[1014] I didn't either.

[1015] Investigators find tire tracks at this crime scene make impressions at this crime scene.

[1016] Amazing.

[1017] A month later, February 8, 1990.

[1018] farmers working at an orchard in high groove find the nude body of 35 -year -old Carolyn Miller also known as a sex worker and drug addict she had gone missing a month earlier she had multiple stab wounds to the chest and she also had a wound near her right nipple the they found pubic hairs on this victim that they kept and this murder is where that episode of Real Detective starts because they basically come in and they talk about how these murders had been going on and but they just, it was the kind of thing of like they would have a murder and it would be a sex worker and they would be like, oh no, and they were like suspecting that they had a serial killer but it wasn't until this, I think, think this may have been um bob creeds like one of his early like when he got put on the case was that point uh no because i think he was on this task force early but i guess that the the point of interest was when he got there um and he was looking at the crime scene he realized that his grandfather used to own that orchard whoa and so he's starting to go is this guy fucking with us Like, is this guy doing this on purpose?

[1019] Because they also, there was a half -eaten grapefruit that had been peeled, half -eaten, and thrown on the victim.

[1020] What the fuck?

[1021] So there was like a lot of kind of messaging in that.

[1022] Yeah.

[1023] He was really freaked out about it.

[1024] So obviously the guy was taking his time.

[1025] He was purposely, what's the word, antagonizing the police?

[1026] Yeah.

[1027] That's what, that's where he started to go, like could this guy know could this guy have known that this was my grandfather's like he's like we used to play here when i was little kid yeah coincidental so uh i i wish i knew exactly when they put this task force together i don't um have it but it basically it was like i would say probably after the fifth or sixth body they actually put a dedicated task force together to be like what is going on but they but they never find fingerprints at any scene um they know that they know that the bodies have been taken to those scenes and dumped there, that they're, so they, they can rarely find any evidence.

[1028] And they've only found tire prints twice up, up until this point.

[1029] And no semen?

[1030] Uh, not that, not that I've ever heard being mentioned.

[1031] I feel like they would say, so.

[1032] Yes.

[1033] Um, so yeah, so the guy's very careful.

[1034] Um, okay, so, uh, under December 21st, 1990, a janitor emptying the garbage at a factory complex on Iowa Avenue discovers the nude and carefully opposed body of a young woman who turns out to be 27 -year -old Susan Sternfeld, also local sex worker, drug addict.

[1035] There's no mutilation on her remains.

[1036] She died of strangulation, the county corner eventually finds out.

[1037] um next 42 year old kathleen leslie milln um is discovered uh on january 19th um a motorist is driving by and sees her body alongside a road um northwest of lake elznor um she had been rendered unconscious by several blows blows to the head and strangled but she had been dead less than 24 hours oh my god God, I would hate to be the person who found her.

[1038] Yeah.

[1039] So, so horrifying.

[1040] So then a couple months later, April 27th, a transient stumbles upon the body of 24 -year -old Cherie Michelle Paiser, a part -time maid and sex worker.

[1041] She had been left in a flower bed in a bowling alley parking lot.

[1042] She had been violated, strangled, posed, and this is awful.

[1043] She had a toilet plunger protruding from her vagina.

[1044] So this is a person that is intent on degrading, after murdering, degrading these victims.

[1045] And there's a couple parts in this episode of Real Detective where he is, Bob Creed is talking, and then he just stops talking and stares, and then they just cut away to something else.

[1046] Because he's just like processing it.

[1047] He's remembering these horrible fucking scenes that he had to come upon and process.

[1048] us.

[1049] Well, what I noticed, too, is that it seems like he's getting more and more bold with where he leaves the bodies.

[1050] Yes.

[1051] Because he's not putting him in a drainage ditch where no one will see him put it there.

[1052] He's putting in a flower bed in a parking lot of a like probably busy business.

[1053] At a bowling alley.

[1054] Bowling alley.

[1055] That's just so bold.

[1056] Yes.

[1057] Exactly right.

[1058] Because he's gotten away with it now how many 12 times or however many, whatever number I'm on.

[1059] That's fucking with them.

[1060] Yeah.

[1061] So now he's like, I'm smarter than the police.

[1062] I can get away with this, I'm doing whatever I want.

[1063] I can't breathe.

[1064] Okay, so now July 4th, 1991 picnickers near Railroad Canyon Road discover the remains of 37 -year -old Sherry Ann Latham.

[1065] Also has a rap sheet for sex work and drug use.

[1066] Her hand was wrapped around nearby branches suggesting she was still alive when the killer left her.

[1067] Oh.

[1068] Uh -huh.

[1069] And I'll talk Bobsy later reveals that she'd been strangled, and they find cat hairs on her corpse, according to her friends.

[1070] She did not own a cat.

[1071] So now the investigators are thinking the killer does.

[1072] Fuck.

[1073] So they take those hairs and they put them aside.

[1074] You kind of monster murders women, but also has a cat.

[1075] I mean, it kind of goes to show how great cats are.

[1076] They love you no matter what, no matter what kind of monster you are.

[1077] Monsters love them no matter what.

[1078] Yeah.

[1079] Okay, so they get their first major lead on August 15th, 1991, because a man driving a gray van picks up a sex worker near the University of California, Riverside.

[1080] And she told investigators that everything was fine at first, then he becomes angry and starts assaulting her, and she manages to jump out of his van and run down the street.

[1081] Good girl.

[1082] So he leaves, but then he stops in a nearby corner, and he picks up her friend, 23 -year -old Kelly Hammond.

[1083] So this is what's interesting.

[1084] This is this, I'm reading from a part of that article.

[1085] But in the episode of Real Detective, when they come upon this body, Bob Creed lifts up the, you know, the tarp that's over her or whatever it's covering her.

[1086] and he goes, I know this girl.

[1087] No. She lives in his neighborhood.

[1088] Oh my.

[1089] And he watched her and her mom walk by his house a couple times a day.

[1090] So he knows her.

[1091] And that's again where he's like, this guy's fucking with me. Yeah.

[1092] This guy knows that I'm working on this case.

[1093] He knows these people.

[1094] Well, I would think this is someone I know.

[1095] This is someone who knows me. Right.

[1096] Well, the other thing, too, it's smart of you to think.

[1097] The other thing, too, is in this episode of Real Detective, they do not mention that either of these women are prostitutes at all.

[1098] Sex workers, sorry, at all.

[1099] Which I think is really interesting because they basically, the story comes in as this girl, the girl that got away, her name is Ali White Cloud.

[1100] And she comes in and says, we were at a bar.

[1101] This is how they, and I wonder if it's because that's how either she wanted it presented or that they were trying to erase the stigma of sex work.

[1102] Definitely.

[1103] But it's Allie White Cloud comes in and says, my friend and I were at a bar and we met this guy.

[1104] And she wanted to go home with him.

[1105] I didn't want to.

[1106] He offered both of us a ride.

[1107] I said, don't go with him.

[1108] And she did.

[1109] And so she goes to the police and gives a full description and describes the van.

[1110] Fuck yeah.

[1111] So I don't know.

[1112] Whatever version of this is the truth or whatever, I think it's interesting.

[1113] It doesn't really matter though.

[1114] It doesn't matter, but I also think it's interesting, and I like the fact that real detective just presented as, it's a girl that almost got pulled into a van and then came and spoke for her friend to the police.

[1115] With respect.

[1116] Yeah.

[1117] So they give, they do an APB with the description of this guy, and he's the creepiest look.

[1118] It's the creepiest looking picture because he's wearing, like, sunglasses and.

[1119] Wait, a photograph or like a drawing?

[1120] It's a drawing.

[1121] It's a police sketch.

[1122] And the van he's driving is 1989 Mitsubishi van, which is one of the weirdest -looking vans.

[1123] It's got that flat front.

[1124] Is that the one?

[1125] Yes.

[1126] Like, yes, like when you're in the front seat, wherever you park, it's like you're right there.

[1127] I totally know that one.

[1128] Yeah.

[1129] And it has a weird, almost like a nautical window in the back, like a little round window.

[1130] Yeah.

[1131] Like a creepy van window.

[1132] So, okay.

[1133] So now they have way more information about this guy than they've had for, since 1980.

[1134] so it's a huge it's a huge lead um they put out the APB um and so now the cops are looking for that van oh they also say is there anything else you can remember and she says that when he opened up the back she remember seeing um a red sleeping bag and at most of these crime scenes they found animal hair, which turned out to be a tan cat, tan cat hair at every scene, and red nylon fibers, which they link to and match to the kind of nylon fibers that they find on sleeping bags.

[1135] What a crazy thing.

[1136] I feel like there's so many people, and this is what he talks about and someone knows something, where it's like, that is one detail that you wouldn't, why would you bother mentioning that?

[1137] Yeah.

[1138] But that is actually really important to the case.

[1139] So that's really interesting.

[1140] I thought we're going to say that she said she saw a cat in his van.

[1141] No. Well, it's close.

[1142] It's the other thing.

[1143] But that's when they presented in the real detective show, like when she's giving all that information, when she says that thing about a red sleeping bag, he's just like, ding, this is the guy.

[1144] Love it.

[1145] So they put out all that information.

[1146] And, oh, so.

[1147] they the basically from from all of the um information and the victims that they've had so far the task force knows this that all the victims are found raped stabbed asphyxiated nude posed they all have ligature marks on their wrists ankles and neck they have one set of shoe impressions um so they know that he carries them to the scene dead and leaves them there um and that he works alone they say that if he's married, his wife would work nights because then he can just do, clearly he can do whatever he wants at night and is not being questioned about it or no one's suspicious of him.

[1148] They never find fingerprints at any of the scenes, but they consistently find cat hair and they consistently find those red nylon fibers.

[1149] It would be more exciting if I had said that before that thing I just said.

[1150] But anyhow, so on October 30th, 1991, they said, they see a man is driving along Summerhill drive and he sees what he thinks is a mannequin.

[1151] Never a mannequin, you guys.

[1152] It's never a fucking mannequin.

[1153] He goes up and finds that it's the dead body of 35 -year -old Delilah Zamora Wallace mother of five.

[1154] Also known sex worker and drug addict.

[1155] She is also her cause of death is as asphyxiation.

[1156] Then two days before Christmas, Eleanor O 'Heda Casares' body is found near Victoria Avenue, which is just down the street from the Riverside Police Station.

[1157] She's 39 years old.

[1158] She's been strangled, and her right breast is missing.

[1159] No, not the boobies.

[1160] We always say, not the boobies.

[1161] So she was also had a rap sheet for sex work and drugs, and the cops are positive that he placed her there too close to the police station to fuck with them.

[1162] So, the very last victim is 31 -year -old Catherine McDonald.

[1163] She's found raped and murdered in a field by a construction worker.

[1164] There they find a set of tire tracks and they find footprints that match a pro -wing tennis shoe.

[1165] They know now he's rushing, he's escalating because this is the sloppiest he's ever been.

[1166] um so they process all of that then they go to make um a next known next of kin you know they go to tell notification for the next kin they go to her house they find the front door open and the house is dark they walk through the house guns drawn and they finally find katherine's three -year -old daughter who's been by herself since her mother disappeared the night before hiding downstairs.

[1167] Oh, so sad.

[1168] And it's the saddest part of the whole episode.

[1169] This little girl who was just hiding alone in a house because her mom didn't come back.

[1170] Her mom went, took the garbage out, and disappeared.

[1171] Oh, so she didn't even see anything.

[1172] She's just like, something is wrong.

[1173] Her mom walked outside and never came back inside at night.

[1174] Oh, my God.

[1175] Horrifying.

[1176] So she was snatched.

[1177] Yes, she was.

[1178] And which he hadn't done that before.

[1179] It was out in front of her own house.

[1180] So, they have, altogether, they had found five different types of tire prints at these crime scenes.

[1181] So Bob Creed decides, he asked the guy to check, is there one type of van that could use all five of those types of tires?

[1182] And one type of van comes back.

[1183] And it's a 1989 Mitsubishi.

[1184] And it's this type of van.

[1185] it's so weird looking so on the night of January 9th 1992 officer Frank Orda is patrolling University Avenue which is where a lot of sex workers were known to walk and he sees that exact type of van so he follows it can you imagine seeing that yeah that there it is what the fuck and it has expired tags and so he pulls it over and he He talks to the driver a little bit.

[1186] He asked the driver to open up the back of the van.

[1187] The driver says, sure, no problem.

[1188] He opens it up.

[1189] There's a red sleeping bag there.

[1190] And the officer places him under arrest.

[1191] Now, they bring him into the station.

[1192] And somebody immediately starts questioning him.

[1193] They don't wait for Bob Creed, who is the head of this task force, for like five fucking years.

[1194] They don't wait for him to come down to question him.

[1195] Just whoever was there.

[1196] I don't know exactly how it happened.

[1197] And so the guy they arrest immediately is like, I want a lawyer.

[1198] I'm not saying anything.

[1199] Son of a cut, man. So Bob Creed doesn't even get to question him.

[1200] Oh.

[1201] But here's what they end up finding out, that the guy, the driver of this fan, is a man named Bill Suf.

[1202] He was born August 20th, 1950 in Torrance, California.

[1203] According to his high school classmates, he was friendly, a skillful musician, and he graduated 87th in a class of 144.

[1204] 44.

[1205] So not a, you know, sounds like a C -minus student.

[1206] His brothers were very troubled.

[1207] One of them was a drug addict.

[1208] The other was a pedophile.

[1209] Oof.

[1210] Um, Suf ended up living in Texas and there, in 1974, when he was 24 years old, he and his former wife were arrested and later convicted for the beating death of their two -year -old daughter.

[1211] Our youth.

[1212] kidding me he was there sentenced to 70 years in prison but he was paroled after serving 10 years why no um his wife served 20 months but her conviction was overturned when it was found that he was fully responsible for the beating death of a two -year -old child can you imagine not only having your child beat to death by your husband but then getting sent to being held responsible and sent like she's mourning in the most painful way and then she goes to jail and in jail you hurt your own kid if you're in jail for hurting your own kid you're like a pedophile right in man's jail jesus i mean they are like tortured and uh so yeah she didn't she spent over a year in prison as a baby killer um so so when bill suff is paroled he goes back to southern california he gets out of Texas and he then gets a job he's now 41 years old he gets a job as a stock clerk and he is known to be a writer of books he likes to drive fancy cars he does community service work he also likes to impersonate police officers of course he does um his neighbors described him as a friendly nerd who was always doing things to help people what the fuck yeah so basically now Bob Creed is scrambling to find evidence they can hold him on because they finally have him in custody, but, you know, he's going to get, he's going to get out and more women are going to die.

[1213] So they look into his background.

[1214] They find out that he works for Riverside County Supply.

[1215] So he is a clerk at the supply company that supplies desks and chairs for the Riverside Police Department.

[1216] So when they were putting together the task force and building the task force, every time they would order a desk or some chairs or a chalkboard, well, Bill Suf was the guy that would come and deliver it straight into the room where they were investigating his serial murders.

[1217] I bet he enjoyed that so much.

[1218] He not only enjoyed it, he knew exactly what they were doing.

[1219] So the first time they knew that they had tire imprints, he changed the tires on his van.

[1220] Every time he would go in there because they were constantly, at one point they said some officers working on the case asked him if they could use his phone and made a phone call on his phone trying to track something down for the murders he was committing.

[1221] so he was just this neutral face in the background that they saw as like oh that's the delivery guy that's the clerk guy but meanwhile he was all eyes and ears every time he was in that room he was looking at everything he was memorizing all of it he knew exactly what they were doing and he knew who they were which is weird that he then didn't get rid of the red sleeping bag kind of right that must not have been a prominent thing like up on the board but it's so amazing because they they in real detective they said it in really perfectly where he's in the bat went like the first time they have the task force meeting um bob creed clears the room and and then starts telling everybody blah blah blah well he bill stuff is one of the people he asked to leave the room no so he's in there like he's working side by side with an like near the police um so bob creed gets a search warrant for Bill Suf's house.

[1222] And when he arrives there, he's surprised to meet Bill Suf's 18 -year -old wife.

[1223] Oh, God.

[1224] So this is where it all comes together.

[1225] She tells the detective, she works nights.

[1226] He's standing in their kitchen.

[1227] She offers to make coffee.

[1228] She's like, I need coffee because I'm so tired because I was up all night.

[1229] He's like, oh, you work nights.

[1230] A tan cat runs through the room.

[1231] He looks over and sees a pair of pro -wing tennis shoes over in the corner where all the shoes are by the backdoor um so when he's looking out the window he sees a truck bed that's filled with tires and he's like what's up with the tires and she's like oh he's always out there changing the tires on that van so he was changing the tires anytime he would see them get a tire imprint he would change the tires on his van my good then the kicker is he looks at the lamp that's hanging over the kitchen table my god tips it up and sees it's exactly the same kind of light bulb that was left inside his victim.

[1232] Fuck.

[1233] And he's like, this is, we're here.

[1234] So he, um, uh, essentially they arrest him.

[1235] They get him.

[1236] He has tried and convicted for 12 counts of first degree murder and one count of attempted murder.

[1237] The jury deliberated for 10 minutes.

[1238] Oh my God.

[1239] And they came back.

[1240] They gave him the death penalty.

[1241] He's on, he's still on, um, death row in San Quentin to this day.

[1242] And the police belief he is responsible.

[1243] for 22 murders, if not more, in Riverside County.

[1244] I wonder what, you know, he was gone for those two years.

[1245] I wonder where he went and what happened that time.

[1246] You mean where there was no bodies found?

[1247] Yeah.

[1248] Or yeah, there was no bodies found for two years.

[1249] Yeah.

[1250] Because that's a long time and he, usually it just goes faster and faster.

[1251] Yeah.

[1252] And Bob Creed, who I have to say is just like one of those, I feel like detectives are those, they're like, all the good cops become detectives.

[1253] It's like the ones that are on the street.

[1254] that are good at it and they're smart and care yeah and they get promoted and they become detectives and he so clearly was one of those people that like treated these women like his neighbors and his friends and he when he talks about going to talk to Kelly Hammond's mother it's like a big part of that episode where he's like we know these people we have to tell them we have to now change their life for the worst by us being there and being like your daughter's dead yeah um he eventually detective bob creed eventually became the head of major crimes the major crimes unit in in riverside county um yeah and that's the the riverside uh serial killer wow it's fucking crazy and great and i have no idea good job dude thanks i know i had no idea either like riverside is close by yeah and i've never heard of that guy either it's so funny like the way you find these murders now i just put in the weirdest searches and you're you still don't know anything that's going on also i do find it fascinating like the there's they know almost nothing about this guy's childhood which i would love to know because obviously it was insanely fucked up if his two brothers are insanely fucked up and he is the worst of all of them i would love to know what kind of evil and insane parents they had in what that situation was but um i really love that show for how much it really shows it's like the side that you never get to hear which is these detectives and like the experience that they go through and the years sometimes that they spend trying to find these killers it's just it's so insane there's there's the one on the killer that you did the guy oh yeah ben um Mendelson uh no his last name is Ben something oh uh child bar Jonah yes yes yes um it wasn't even what I was saying and you knew what I was saying um I'm so shocked that I knew that And what I like about that show, too, is that it gives you little glimpses into the PTSD that you know they fucking have.

[1255] And so they're not trying to be like, this is what happened.

[1256] It's like, are you, the one I did, he starts crying.

[1257] No, they suffer terribly.

[1258] I mean, Jesus, like that guy having to, it was like a child killer that had multiple victims.

[1259] And every story was horrible.

[1260] And that one is especially great because the way he just, the way he eventually finds him.

[1261] is he starts walking the path that those children were taking to school, and he finds Bar Jonah standing in a security guard outfit at the end of one of those alleys.

[1262] This is why you make them move their finger from the photo.

[1263] That's right.

[1264] This is why you fucking do it.

[1265] That's exactly right.

[1266] If someone knocks on your door, if you get pulled over and they're holding up a badge, you fucking call that number into the police department and make sure it's real before you.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] I guess if you're on a rural area, if you're alone in the house, house now you're finding reasons to say rural god damn it i am you're right rural you can say farmland you're in farmland out in the country out in the country do not you don't have to you don't have to well you get to check first it's your right and like i'll tell you what and those FBI agents flip that the one guy flipped open his quiet friend behind him i was like what are you doing it kind of looked like they were coming for us to take us away a little bit a little bit but the you don't look at the ID when someone flips a thing like that at you you look at the badge you look at the thing where you're like oh this is a real cop and you get all cut up in the kind of like the gold badge part I wonder if you're allowed to say hand me that and I want to look at it what's your name what's your this what you're that well a real cop would give it to you yeah what would they have to lose yeah totally I mean they would want you to believe they were a cop it's why they're showing it to you listen hey be be be overly cautious instead of everyone listening is like we are yeah you've already taught us that we know we did that before oh my god that's all this podcast is i know is warning you and scaring you and giving you anxiety and then telling you how to get rid of your anxiety what's a positive thing from this week um i fucking totally knew it at some point and now i forgot it what's yours say that this my this past birthday was like one of the best birthdays i've ever had because i'm at the age now where like i honestly don't care about birthdays so the last couple have been super low -key if not totally like doing nothing you didn't even fucking we were recording that day and you didn't tell me i know i mean i didn't remember well but why would you i mean but you should have told me but you didn't care so you don't yeah but that was in my mind i was like it doesn't matter and i don't care, but it's actually not true because you, well, first of all, so many people because of your tweet responded to the lovely tweet you sent to me about my birthday, but there were just so many nice things and not just people that listen to the podcast, but then like my actual friends knew and said lovely things.

[1269] And it's like when you actually give people a chance to do that if they want to, then they do.

[1270] And it's really nice.

[1271] And it makes them feel good too.

[1272] Yeah, exactly.

[1273] It's just um it was just lovely and we had that fun dinner and watching in dc yeah that was so nice like what if i just threw up for no reason it was just like a really lovely kind of um redefining birthday experience i love that yeah it was nice happy birthday thanks congratulations thanks so much way to go um something i love or i'm happy about is uh when stephen babysits the cats when we go out of town.

[1274] It just makes me so happy because I know they love him and they like hanging out with him and I know this because Stephen, the first couple days of us being gone, Stephen babysat them and sent me photos constantly and I could tell they were happy and they don't run away when he comes in.

[1275] And then my dad was going to stay at our place for the rest of the weekend.

[1276] And so Stephen left and when my dad who doesn't like cats came in the door, he said, oh Elvis came out at first and then ran away immediately.

[1277] And I think he thought my dad was Stephen.

[1278] and got excited because the guy who gives them all the cookies was there and then realized it was my dad ran away so thanks stephen it means a lot to me that to have someone there who I really I really loves my cats yeah I mean I just have the best time and like I've always told you that like I'll come over here you're always like you and Vince are always like come do some work hang out for a while and then I end up just hanging out with the cats yeah I don't get anything done it's just pictures of Elvis good pets yeah I love it I have a good time You have my Instagram password for the cats too, so I'm like, fucking go for it.

[1279] It's great.

[1280] Thank you.

[1281] So thanks for doing that.

[1282] And yes, I pay him.

[1283] Don't worry.

[1284] I'm not.

[1285] You get paid in my cats being nice to you.

[1286] Yeah.

[1287] But you guys, thanks for listening.

[1288] Yes.

[1289] We really appreciate it.

[1290] And you guys are, this is the best.

[1291] I can't.

[1292] This is the best.

[1293] It's pretty nice.

[1294] Yeah, I like it.

[1295] All right.

[1296] Well, you guys stay sexy.

[1297] And don't get murdered.

[1298] Elvis.

[1299] You want a cookie?

[1300] Okay, bye.

[1301] Bye.

[1302] I love the new mic set if you can just...

[1303] I know.

[1304] I have them here.