Sheryl Crow

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Miniature Mod Man. I'm here.

[3] Hello.

[4] Hello to you.

[5] Today we have Cheryl Crow.

[6] She's a musician, a singer, a songwriter, and an actress.

[7] She has released 11 studio albums, six compilations, three live albums, and seven number one singles.

[8] She has sold over 50 million albums worldwide nine Grammy Awards.

[9] 32 nominations.

[10] Do you want me to hit you with some of her songs?

[11] Please.

[12] If it makes you happy, all I want to do.

[13] is have some fun every day is a winding road that's just a taste of her catalog thank you so much real mashup um we enjoyed chatting with her we we thank her for doing it in the quarantine from nashville from nashville tennessee yeah this was a cross -country ep by way of monica's apartment so please enjoy miss sherel crow now join wundry plus in the wundry app or on apple podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts he's an object star he's an option extra i have to gore just for a minute um i love you hold on a second my assumption was that you didn't know who i was are you serious yes your show crow I want to meet you.

[14] So you know who I am.

[15] This is spectacular.

[16] Yes.

[17] I mean, I knew you were as an actor, but your podcasts are like sustenance for me. Oh, my gosh.

[18] I love them.

[19] Thank you.

[20] You know, I have to say, you are definitely one of the people over the years I've thought, hmm, I'd really like to meet her.

[21] I doubt I'm ever going to because I, well, A, don't leave the house all that often.

[22] And then B. And now you don't leave it at all.

[23] Now it looks like I was a genius.

[24] I don't go to many music -oriented things And then I thought, I'm likely never going to meet her But here we are, and I'm really excited about it Here we are.

[25] I'm at your house and you're at mine.

[26] Yeah, I don't want to objectify you right out of the gates, but my God, are you beautiful?

[27] Holy smokes.

[28] Oh, my gosh, thank you.

[29] There was this show last night on ACM.

[30] It was called Our Country, I think it was.

[31] I turned it on and turned it off.

[32] I was like, oh, my God, I look so old.

[33] Hey, you know, what do you do?

[34] I hear stuff I've done.

[35] I'll feel like when it was going down, it was so good.

[36] And then I'll listen to it back and go, that is not good.

[37] And you're old.

[38] Yeah, do you have that as a musician?

[39] I've learned it's best for me to never watch anything that I have a good memory about.

[40] Because 10 years later, I'm like, oh, that wasn't all that good.

[41] Yeah.

[42] Actually, it's kind of funny.

[43] One of the coolest things about this whole quarantine thing is since we've been quarantining, I've exposed my kids through osmosis to a lot of music I think they should hear.

[44] it's funny how imperfect it is when you're just really listening you know what I mean like I'm listening to it with ears that are like okay my kids are hearing this for the first time this is so cool and then I'll listen go wow first and foremost it always sounds amazing so much better than records now and it's so not perfect it's just not slick like how we listen to stuff now some of the stuff my kids are going mom why are we listening to this and you know I'm just like because it's like salmon.

[45] It's like green beans.

[46] You're going to listen to it and it's going to be good for you.

[47] Yeah, it's growing food for your ears.

[48] Yeah, and you can't go anywhere else because it's quarantine.

[49] How old are your kids?

[50] They're 12 and 9, both boys.

[51] Oh, I'm so sorry.

[52] I am so happy I don't have girls.

[53] I just, I can't imagine having to do somebody else's hair.

[54] I'm going to do my own, but if I had to deal with that or lots of total emotional thrombos, I don't.

[55] I don't know.

[56] I I mean, my kids are like, they blow up.

[57] They're over it.

[58] You know what I mean?

[59] I observed that yesterday, which is, I'm in the house with a five and seven -year -old girls.

[60] And then Monica, who is a woman, and my wife, who's a woman.

[61] And it's a lot of female energy.

[62] And then two female dogs.

[63] Anyways, we FaceTime with our friends' kids, all three boys.

[64] And when they get on FaceTime, their boys are already doing aggressive characters.

[65] They're like, oh, where's Delta?

[66] And they're saying fucking stuff.

[67] and they're only like five and I'm like oh my god it's so dangerous in that kitchen but when my girls have a meltdown it's a 30 minute ride yeah yeah yeah no we don't have that here my boys are adopted and when I was going through the process being a single woman I thought well for sure I'll take whatever comes I don't care what variety and I thought for sure I'd get girls just you know I just thought it would work out that way yeah but I got boys and I got I got one that was born exactly three years by a day.

[68] So my older one got his younger brother for his birthday and they're very close and they're funny.

[69] I mean, they love each other except for when they hate each other.

[70] But they're pretty, I mean, as kids go, I don't know how everybody's kids are, but I'm lucky.

[71] I mean, like right now, virtual school in the morning, they've spent every day building a chicken coop in the backyard.

[72] So it's been the best thing ever.

[73] I don't want us to have to go through this forever and ever, but it's been incredible.

[74] And we've never, both my kids learned how to walk on a tour bus.

[75] And my 12 -year -old took his first steps in the green room at Ellen DeGeneres.

[76] And so they don't know.

[77] I mean, basically, their whole life has existed in between packing, unpacking tour or a quick five days to New York or whatever.

[78] So this is the first time in 28 years for me that I have not, I'm not working.

[79] And I don't know.

[80] And I'm in the going to be working.

[81] It's the weirdest thing.

[82] But it's kind of awesome.

[83] Yeah, I'm kind of also overwhelmed with gratitude that I don't always have.

[84] Totally with you.

[85] Now, are you one of five kids?

[86] Do you have two older sisters?

[87] I'm one of four kids.

[88] I have two older sisters and a younger brother.

[89] And in my experience, in my town, when there were three boys or three girls, the youngest was bat shit crazy, without exception.

[90] They just got more and more risk -tankier.

[91] as they were competing with older.

[92] So were you the one that would jump off of this and try everything?

[93] Yeah, you know, it's funny how you remember yourself when you're a kid, and it wasn't until my dad was turning 70 that we pulled out all the old 16 millimeter and the 8 millimeter tape and decided, okay, we're going to put all of it together before it's so faded you can't see it and all the old photos.

[94] And I could not believe.

[95] I mean, there was a ton of the first kid.

[96] And quite a lot of the second kid By the time it got to me, there wasn't that much But in every picture, I'm like, me, notice me, me, me. And, you know, every video, I'm like bounding into the room and lifting my dress and cartwheels.

[97] And I remember being shy and kind of like perfect kid and watching that, I was just, holy crap, I can't believe my whole life I've been like, notice me!

[98] I'm great.

[99] Shine the spotlight over here.

[100] Yes.

[101] I love me once you get to know me. So, and definitely my middle sister straight 4 .0, extremely driven, hypercritical of me. So everything that I did, it was just obnoxious.

[102] And then the boy came along and it was like we three were like, okay, it was great.

[103] We loved having you guys, but now we have a boy.

[104] How much younger was he than you?

[105] He's four and a half years younger.

[106] And I actually, for all intents and purposes, was the boy until he came along.

[107] Like, my granddad taught me how to shoot pellet guns and super into like fishing and playing ball and stuff.

[108] And then he came along and that was taken care of.

[109] That went rightly towards him.

[110] So dad played trumpet and was a lawyer and mom was a piano teacher?

[111] Yes.

[112] and just an incredible singer, and still is.

[113] My mom's 83, my dad's 88, and they're great.

[114] They're still married.

[115] We FaceTime them every day right now.

[116] They've both always been very creative, extremely into music, even still so.

[117] My dad's played in a rock band until, in fact, they were scheduled to play in Memphis again at BB Kings in August, which I'm assuming will be canceled.

[118] But he still plays, and we all go and sit in.

[119] They've got a great band.

[120] So those Viagra commercials are real.

[121] They're our older guys.

[122] They are real.

[123] He is still rocking out.

[124] I don't know what happens in the bedroom.

[125] We're not that open of a family.

[126] In fact, I can safely say, I've never seen my parents undressed or even in their underwear.

[127] Well, I might have seen my dad in his underwear once.

[128] That's the kind of, we're good Midwestern, you know.

[129] When my little boys were young, you know, they would talk about their penis.

[130] and we would call it by its anatomical.

[131] And they're just like, why do you have to call it that?

[132] Because that is what it is.

[133] Why do you have to call it anything?

[134] Well, because it's a generational thing, yeah.

[135] What did you guys call it?

[136] Because we called it our bird, and that was unisex.

[137] So I had a bird and my sister had a bird.

[138] Wow, that's good.

[139] It was not referred to as anything.

[140] Okay.

[141] There was no reference to it at all.

[142] Now, the fact that they were both musicians, was that a coincidence, or did they somehow meet through music?

[143] They did not meet through music.

[144] My dad was in the service.

[145] He came home.

[146] My mom was, he tells the story of her sitting on the church steps, the Methodist Church, when she was 13, and he said he was going to marry her.

[147] Uh -huh.

[148] But they did.

[149] They got married.

[150] So I don't know if he knew how musical she was.

[151] My dad was a little bit of a savant.

[152] I think he really wanted to be a musician, but you didn't go and study music at school.

[153] He did go to college.

[154] You wound up getting a degree in law.

[155] But he took one year of piano and could play show piano.

[156] It was really very musical.

[157] And my mom, like I said, she still has an incredible voice.

[158] But my dad actually used to play Taps from the time he was eight years old for people coming home from World War II.

[159] Oh, you're kidding.

[160] Yes.

[161] They would take him out to the graveyard outside of town, and he would play taps on his bugle.

[162] Still to this day, like if he hears that, it's just lots of tears.

[163] He just can't.

[164] It's hard for him.

[165] Yeah.

[166] And interesting, interesting times.

[167] You know, they have such colorful stories that I think, gosh, that sounds like.

[168] something from an old movie, but it kind of is, you know.

[169] Yeah.

[170] I went on a U .S .O. tour to Afghanistan in 07, and we were in the middle of a comedy show, and the base was under attack, and then they called us all out to the flight line, and they were bringing back two soldiers that had been killed, and two that were injured, and they had to teach us to salute.

[171] It was at night.

[172] It was raining.

[173] It was like 85, and we had to salute as the helicopters landed, and they played the bagpipes.

[174] Oh, wow.

[175] I don't know that I've ever had an experience like that where I was like, oh my God, this is, you know, the realest moment I think I've ever parachuted into in my life.

[176] It's crazy the power of an instrument.

[177] It summed up everything that was happening in this crazy way that no poem could do or any other thing could do.

[178] It was just like, oh, yeah, that's this.

[179] It's a weird thing I was trying to explain.

[180] Music is such a physical thing.

[181] I mean, I don't think we think of it as being, physical, but I remember years ago meeting Carlos Santana and him saying to me, I watched your show and you really change the molecules.

[182] And that always stuck with me because it does change this shape of your cells.

[183] I mean, they've even done studies on it.

[184] And it also changes the physicality inside with vibrations, with hormones.

[185] I mean, it's just such an interesting thing.

[186] And especially if it's a song that you've heard and you relate to from a time and you can smell what you smell.

[187] And You actually have a physical reaction to it.

[188] Like, I can hear certain songs and smell the inside of my buddy's Cutlass Supreme in 1978.

[189] I mean, it's just a physical experience, you know, and that's one of the things I just absolutely, as I get older, I love so much.

[190] I listen to my kids, what they like to listen to.

[191] And I go, will they have that experience?

[192] Will they be moved by a melody?

[193] Or are they having this experience with this kind of music?

[194] It's interesting.

[195] Yeah.

[196] I think it'd be silly to shit on any music that anyone loves.

[197] It's all great.

[198] But I do think I saw Crosby Stills and Nash when I was 16 in an amphitheater.

[199] Or Steely Dan when they were tour with those amazing studio musicians.

[200] The complexity all coming together in unity, how many different elements are happening that come together.

[201] There's something about that that certainly, whether the music's great or not great, it just doesn't exist so much in a lot of popular music.

[202] music, that I think is a spectacle to behold.

[203] Yeah.

[204] To your point that it's physical, it's like, yes, it's wind passing over this thing.

[205] It's a vibration of this.

[206] And then magically, that encapsulate emotions that we have.

[207] Yeah.

[208] What a great endeavor you have been involved with your whole life.

[209] It's really cool.

[210] Listen, I'm so lucky.

[211] I can remember my sister actually lives here in town, so I see her at least twice a week.

[212] And we always laugh about our house was, I mean, we were probably.

[213] like you.

[214] I mean, we definitely knew the value of a dollar.

[215] We didn't get what we wanted.

[216] We got what we needed.

[217] And I can remember my parents coming home from playing on the weekends with all their buddies and it would be like midnight and they would be listening to records and they'd be playing and dancing.

[218] And the house, of course, was built like every house back then where you heard every footstep in the house.

[219] So we would sleep on the stairs on the other side of the wall so we could just be kind of in the room with them and not realizing that wasn't how every kid grew up that's just that was our experience so i have that as an early experience obviously with video games and with tv and technology and stuff there's so much more to do now than just hang out where your parents are and listen to what they're doing you know you don't even want to hang out where your parents are now parents can't compete with youtube now they can't or fortnight i mean right now it's Like, my kids are, please, it's the only time I get to see my friends is on Fortnite.

[220] But yeah, no, I do, I definitely feel lucky.

[221] Yeah.

[222] I'm so curious about this.

[223] Obviously, my wife's very musical.

[224] She studied music from a kid.

[225] She's a badass.

[226] Yeah, she's a bad motherfucker.

[227] But obviously, she would love my kids to be engaged in music, right?

[228] It's so fucking hard to get them to take a piano lesson.

[229] So I'm wondering, did your parents force it on you?

[230] Or did you, was it something that you just wanted to join them in?

[231] Oh, no, they forced us.

[232] And I tell my kids, now we still have the same argument.

[233] I have with my mom.

[234] Why do I take piano lessons?

[235] It's so stupid.

[236] I hate it.

[237] But my mom and dad were a unified front on that.

[238] It's harder being a single mom because I'm the only one that can argue it.

[239] But they were a unified front.

[240] However, with my brother, he got to quit when he was a sophomore.

[241] My oldest sister and I could play by ear.

[242] So the two of us actually wound up going into music.

[243] My middle sister could play classically.

[244] and she was incredible, and she went on to teach.

[245] But my little brother, who probably has more talent than any of us, just, I mean, he hated it, just hated it.

[246] And they finally gave in, they were like, okay, fuck it, forget it.

[247] Yeah, life's too short.

[248] Also, he was number four.

[249] They had had all their battles, probably.

[250] They were over it, yeah.

[251] So in high school, you were popular.

[252] You were a track star.

[253] You won a beauty pageant.

[254] Did you feel those things?

[255] Like, on paper, you could acknowledge, like, oh, if I look on the paper and I was on track and I was in honor society.

[256] It seems like you did pretty well in high school.

[257] Did it feel that way?

[258] I mean, I felt like high school was, well, obviously I had no reference, but for me it was really awkward.

[259] I mean, I was a super skinny girl and I had the relationship to being loved with doing good, doing well, being the best.

[260] Uh -huh.

[261] Very female of you.

[262] Very female.

[263] Yeah.

[264] And not disappointing my parents, you know, working hard.

[265] The stink guy was a huge motivator for me. So if I ever sense any disappointment out of my parents, it was just like, you know.

[266] So I think that it took me really, to be perfectly honest, until I got diagnosed with breast cancer to figure out that love is not something that you tap dance to get.

[267] And that was my relationship with my work, my relationship in the universe.

[268] I picked people that demanded that of me. I mean, I've picked some very high -achieving men.

[269] Uh -huh.

[270] So, I mean, not to make you my therapist, but...

[271] No, I would love to be your therapist.

[272] I'd like to continue this weekly.

[273] You'll love my rates.

[274] They're very competitive.

[275] It's too bad.

[276] We aren't in the attic because if you were on the couch, you'd really, really feel like it was...

[277] This would be like a four -hour lesson of crying, Maybe some yelling, beating a pillow.

[278] I think I did the really hard stuff after I went through the whole cancer thing.

[279] I mean, I think I've done bits and pieces of it through the years, but nothing like that.

[280] And I really dug down.

[281] Do you think you could articulate what about that moment caused you to question some of these things?

[282] Well, I had a couple of instrumental people that just seemed to say something that resonated at the moment that I could get it.

[283] For years, I've been studying meditation.

[284] and I would do it religiously, and then I would stop doing it for a couple of years.

[285] And then I would change the kind of meditation.

[286] It was just kind of about like how I approached everything.

[287] And I started seeing this great healer in New York City when I was living there.

[288] He would not say he was psychic, but he was definitely intuitive.

[289] And he was like, look, everybody has the ability to be intuitive.

[290] It's just it really depends on how much you want to know.

[291] And that's what keeps you from knowing.

[292] He said a couple of things that resonated with me. And one of them was that, you know, until you can put yourself first in your life, you will always be at the bottom.

[293] And I think that was where I had gotten.

[294] In fact, I think I had really mastered, even in a relationship, picking someone that could really manifest that with me of making me seriously the bottom of the heat.

[295] And the other thing is that awakening emotion is the gateway to awakening.

[296] So if you're somebody like me who's always been, and this is typical of Westerners anyway, you know you fall down as a kid you're not hurt just don't think about it or you know somebody breaks up with you just try to stay busy don't dwell in it everything is about pushing it down pushing it down not dealing with it and that just registers itself in your somewhere in your psyche and have you read um body keeps the score yes and i believe that there are several really great books that kind of fortify that notion when you get that diagnosis is it that you start contemplating oh wow this could be it and if this is it did I live the life that I wanted to I didn't have that experience because I knew I wasn't going to die in fact I mean mine was so early stage I think one of the things that caught my attention about it was I was super fit I mean at that point in the game I was riding my bicycle out duress I mean I was like super fit no history and a nice person yeah like how is this happening yeah and sometimes you get these little speed bumps in life that are tailor made for you, you know?

[297] And that was, that was definitely my experience.

[298] The first day I went in for radiation, this radiologist that I had was very stoic, reminded me of my grandmother.

[299] And I wouldn't have thought her to be at all like into the metaphysical woo -woo, you know, and she said, don't miss out on the lesson.

[300] And I was just like, okay, I don't know what that means.

[301] And she said, just notice.

[302] And I started learning just like bits and He says that if you break down the body, breast issues are typically aligned with nurturing, nourishment.

[303] Obviously, women are born with these breasts that actually nurture or nourish children.

[304] We come in with this pre -design.

[305] And that is the life we live throughout our lives.

[306] We're constantly nurturing people.

[307] We're constantly taking care of our families.

[308] We're taking care of our parents.

[309] We're taking care of all the things.

[310] And we're also being productive.

[311] And then if you get into left breast, that's self -nourishment.

[312] And that's where mine was.

[313] And I do look at it and go, okay, I was the last person that I would nurture.

[314] I wouldn't let anybody take care of me. I wouldn't let anybody nourish me. I was the fixer in all my relationships.

[315] Yeah.

[316] And so, you know, it's kind of like that oxygen mask thing.

[317] When the phytonin that comes over and says, if you don't put yours on, you can't put your kids on.

[318] You've got to put yours on first.

[319] So it's kind of that.

[320] And it sounds really simplistic, but really, honestly, it is that you Just don't get your lessons until the second you get them.

[321] You can have the same lessons over and over, but there is a moment where you actually get it, and that was mine.

[322] Yeah.

[323] Now, would you call yourself a codependent by nature?

[324] I don't know.

[325] I mean, are you hip to enneagrams?

[326] Oh.

[327] We need to do more research on it.

[328] Yeah, a lot of our listeners are urging us.

[329] And we've taken the tests, and I forget what your number was.

[330] I know.

[331] I don't remember.

[332] Because we haven't done the official test, which we need to do.

[333] Yeah, we did a really cheap online.

[334] version I think.

[335] But tell us.

[336] I mean, it's really interesting.

[337] Actually, it's kind of funny.

[338] I went to a therapist before I got into a relationship.

[339] I was in right at the beginning of it.

[340] And I was just like, I don't know what's wrong.

[341] I really love this person.

[342] But everything about it feels awful.

[343] And he's like, well, that's because you're a six and he's a three and you should run as fast as you can.

[344] I was just like, okay, I don't know what you just said.

[345] But he was right about the six.

[346] I am a loyalist.

[347] I'm somebody who sticks with people way beyond what I should.

[348] Co -dependent, yeah.

[349] I mean, I guess in some ways I am.

[350] I think I'm less of that now.

[351] I think I'm very aware of it.

[352] But if your value to people is that you can provide nurturing to them, right, and you can take care of them, then obviously you're selecting for a group of people that needs nurturing, right?

[353] Yes.

[354] That probably are, you know, a little destructive by nature.

[355] Yeah, well, you know, interestingly, I pre -cancer, I gravitated to really pathological narcissist, and that just sounds awful.

[356] And yeah, you're not calling anyone.

[357] specifically one i understand that just saying i'm drawn to them what happens is is you find people that mirror back to you how you already feel about yourself like there is a wow thing you're a rock star you're funny you're smart you have your whole financial thing you run your own company and that looks great and then slowly start whittling away all the things that you really feel about yourself, which are you're not really worth being loved.

[358] You're not that good.

[359] You're fooling people.

[360] You know, it's all that, all those little voices.

[361] It's so awesome to hear you say that.

[362] Because from anyone on the outside, I think if there was a most common adjective to describe you from people who like you would be authentic.

[363] I think that would probably be like within the top three most common words they would use.

[364] And to even hear someone that is so clearly authentic, to have imposter syndrome or to feel fraudulent is so helpful.

[365] Relatable.

[366] It's so relatable.

[367] That's a human condition and it's not really related to anything real.

[368] Real.

[369] It isn't real.

[370] I mean, obviously that is part of what I call it your mythology.

[371] You know, there are certain things along the way that for some weird reason resonate and you pick that up and you make that your truth that really it's mythology.

[372] I mean, I think when you reach a certain level of success and you make it all about if I do everything right and if I'm really good and if I write songs that are important and da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da.

[373] You never feel like you're good enough.

[374] And also, where's the joy?

[375] Oh my gosh, it took me walking away from it and saying, I don't have to do this.

[376] In fact, I remember Chrissy Hyne saying, me, this is not your life.

[377] This is what you do in your life.

[378] This is not your life.

[379] You don't have to do this.

[380] And I took a year away from it with the knowingness that I may never go back to this.

[381] And I came away from it wanting to do it again.

[382] Yeah.

[383] And I came away from it feeling like, I could really write stuff that sucks.

[384] But if I like it, I'm heading in the right direction.

[385] Yeah.

[386] And then I made the detours record, which I handed into the label, and they're like, we like the record, but we don't think anybody wants to hear it.

[387] It's my favorite record.

[388] I heard a guy in an AA meeting say, which I really, really loved and was really helpful to me. He said, it's just simple language.

[389] He said, I don't say my career anymore.

[390] I say my job.

[391] because a career is an ego thing, it's an identity thing.

[392] Your job's what you do to make money and stay busy and whatever.

[393] And I just started looking through it with that lens.

[394] And by God, my job got more fun because I'm not managing a career, which is all about appearance.

[395] And if I, you know, downgrade how fucking important it is, it just gets more enjoyable.

[396] Yeah, I was doing an interview the other day and this guy was asking me about social media.

[397] We do do social media.

[398] And Monica, you'll relate to this.

[399] Liz, who helped set this up, was my boy's nanny.

[400] Oh, look at that.

[401] And then she became my assistant.

[402] Then all the while she was going to school and got her degree in, she's a family therapist, family and divorce therapist.

[403] And now she does my social media.

[404] And that's amazing.

[405] You know, I was thinking about this because this girl was asking, I was like, you know, if I had to do it again, if I were trying to break now, the fact that social media and your arts and your work, that is that thing you're talking about that career.

[406] Your personal life becomes a part of your job.

[407] And if I had to do that, there's just no way.

[408] I couldn't do it.

[409] And as long as it's my job and my kids aren't a part of it, it's someplace I go to do my job.

[410] I can still say writing and performing all that as my passion, but it is a job.

[411] And my kids aren't a part of that.

[412] They get to come out and they get paid to bring guitars out on stage.

[413] That's their job.

[414] But they're not a part of the social media and all that stuff that goes along with it.

[415] It reaches so in, you know.

[416] Can you believe in your lifetime, even in the period you've been working, how much it's evolved?

[417] You know, music and professional music for about 50 years was semi -stagnant.

[418] I mean, you went into a studio, you recorded, and then you did some press when it came out, and then you perform live.

[419] Yeah.

[420] And you sold albums, which people don't do that anymore.

[421] They perform live and then they have a social media following and that's a revenue generator.

[422] Yeah.

[423] So isn't it bonkers that, A, you must have some gratitude, even I have some, that you kind of were born in the sweet spot that you sold 50 million albums, which a decade later that you does, that's not happening.

[424] I am the walking poster child.

[425] for gratitude.

[426] And I am not kidding because just the mere fact that I was there at the very end of people buying records, like Napster started happening during my second or third record.

[427] And just the fact that you would sell records and you would know how many people actually spent their money to buy your record.

[428] And your relationship to that person who's in your audience who spent, you know, $6 .99 or $14 .99 for a CD or you better deliver.

[429] And you want to deliver.

[430] It blows my mind.

[431] It's so different now.

[432] I'm such a freaking dinosaur.

[433] I feel so lucky and so removed from the whole thing.

[434] It makes me sad for young artists to not know that feeling of being able to, obviously, it's great to start on a show and you have like 30 million people that already know who you are.

[435] When I started, we'd had 10 people in the audience and then we would have like 100 and that was awesome.

[436] And then we would build up to like a thousand and then we'd get an RV and then the RV went to a bus.

[437] I mean, all these little stepping stones and all along I could be a buffoon on stage and have you know try to figure out who I was before YouTube and now it is like you have to have your shit together because from the jump because it's all going to be recorded forever yes I mean your delivery is probably on the internet you can look up everything from the time you pop into the world to you know.

[438] Oh, I think about the fact that I got sober probably a week before people started recording everything on their phone.

[439] We wouldn't be having this conversation if everyone was recording everything in 2003.

[440] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[441] What's up guys?

[442] It's your girl Kiki.

[443] And my podcast is back with a new season.

[444] And let me tell you It's too good, and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[445] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[446] And I don't mean just friends.

[447] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[448] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[449] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[450] We've all been there.

[451] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[452] our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[453] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[454] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[455] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[456] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[457] Follow Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[458] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[459] Now, I want to ask one more quick question about the narcissist.

[460] Not anyone in particular, but so my mother, her saying is I never met an alcoholic I didn't marry.

[461] So she, I think she kind of, in the most beautiful, way she really loved her dad and she wanted his approval a lot and she's one of six kids and he was very busy and so she liked narcissists with a lot going on that you had to fucking earn that approval but i think she would now be quick to admit there's comfort in that because they're a house on fire generally and so you don't have to look too much at you because by comparison there's someone that's really fucking things up royal all the time and it's it's kind of comforting I just wonder if that played any part of your, those early attractions.

[462] There was definitely part of it.

[463] I mean, and, you know, there are obviously varying degrees of narcissism, and I think we all have aspects of it.

[464] And then I think there are people that are actually more pathological.

[465] I found that most of the important relationships that I had were extremely high performing, high achieving narcissists.

[466] And the thing about that is that you eventually become part of the shadow around them, You know, and it's extremely lonely.

[467] I think I got used to being lonely, and I was constantly in, in several of my relationships.

[468] Just used to being expendable, people who get in relationships with narcissists are generally they're referred to as echoes.

[469] And that's the person that mirrors back to the narcissist, all the things that they want to be, but that they aren't.

[470] And it's always a dangerous spot to be in because you are, any minute, going to be tossed when that picture of what they want to be but they aren't becomes too glaring so you know it's not a joyful place to be you don't recommend it i don't recommend it i mean every person that i have loved i still love you know i don't have any terrible feelings about anyone i mean that sounds really woo -woo but you know there was a reason that i loved them you know yeah yeah yeah so i will say about myself, I'm a great false advertiser.

[471] So you meet me in public and I'm pretty outgoing and I'm very silly and I like to horse around.

[472] And then you come to my house and you realize, well, this place is fucking spotless, like a little suspiciously spotless.

[473] And he's kind of wiping down counters and stuff.

[474] So I'm selling this very carefree dude.

[475] And then in fact, I'm a little controlling an OCD.

[476] And I have come to terms with that.

[477] Some gals probably have been like, wait a minute, this isn't really what you advertise.

[478] So I just wonder, when I look at you from the outside, knowing nothing about you, I just, I imagine a lot of other guys think this is like, that's a fucking cool chick.

[479] She's a musician.

[480] She's fucking chill.

[481] She's down for a party.

[482] Do you think at any point, maybe you needed more than you felt like you were entitled to say or that you wouldn't be the fun person if you said, oh, I also have some needs that need to be met?

[483] Well, that's the thing.

[484] You know, and this is deep, deep therapy stuff.

[485] And yes, I think one of the things has always been attractive about me from the get -go was all that stuff you're talking about.

[486] Yeah.

[487] And yeah, it's a turnoff for people when you start having needs.

[488] And you want to be noticed and you want to be appreciated.

[489] And it's an inconvenience.

[490] And yes, you know, one of the things that I've had several people say, well, you don't seem like the type that you need people take care of you.

[491] Yeah, I have the same problem.

[492] Yeah, you know, that's part of it.

[493] And that's where that intimacy thing comes in.

[494] That's another area, not sexual intimacy, but just intimacy of like revealing yourself, your true self.

[495] That's the scariest thing ever.

[496] And that's what relationships are tailor made for or supposed to be.

[497] That's, you know, where you see yourself, where you learn the most about yourself is by being intimate and allowing yourself to be vulnerable.

[498] And, God, that's the hardest.

[499] That's still the challenge for me, you know?

[500] I think being involved with people who are narcissistic lets you off the hook from having to be intimate because you don't really have to be known or seen.

[501] You just have to be cool and be smart and be all those things you were when we first met you.

[502] But if you're vulnerable, that's super inconvenient.

[503] And so, yeah, I mean, I think I pick people that make me not have to be intimate.

[504] And that's my challenge.

[505] That's my walk, you know.

[506] Yeah.

[507] Okay.

[508] Now, I want to ask you a couple of career things.

[509] So you go to college, you do major in music, right, in some capacity.

[510] Classical piano, darling.

[511] Oh, classical piano.

[512] Wonderful.

[513] I watched both Whitney Houston documentaries in the last three months.

[514] I watched the Taylor Swift documentary.

[515] And then I talked to Alicia.

[516] And now I'm talking to you.

[517] And man, is it similar?

[518] Really?

[519] Yes, the approval, the being the best, the performing, the loneliness, the solitude.

[520] people pleasing.

[521] I don't know if you've watched Taylor's documentary, but you get a real snapshot about how fucking lonely that is.

[522] And it takes so much courage to say, I'm not happy because it sounds like you know what the world thinks.

[523] Like, fuck you, bitch, you got it all.

[524] Right.

[525] What do you mean this isn't every?

[526] And I think it takes a lot of courage to go like, well, I'm lonely, so you can say whatever you want, but this is a lonely experience for me. Yeah.

[527] Good for her.

[528] I mean, that's a hard thing to do.

[529] And yeah, I mean, I think you already, especially if you're successful, there's a propensity for people to just say, shut up and sing.

[530] We don't care what you think.

[531] Yeah, don't be political.

[532] We don't want to hear your politics.

[533] We don't want to hear about how depressed you are.

[534] At the core of everything, you're still a person.

[535] And at the core of that, you're still the little person.

[536] Oh, yeah.

[537] Yes, it informs the big person and their decisions and how they see themselves, you know.

[538] And there's a big, big difference.

[539] between complaining and being honest because honestly part of me I feel this obligation so for Kristen and I tons of people look up to Chris and I as like couple goals and that has always made me so uncomfortable because I'm like look I'm not a delight bad news she's not always a delight it's fucking beating quite often it takes a ton of work and I just need to be vocal to you like you're not going to be at a party and meet your Kristen Bell you're going to you'll meet her but then you gotta go to couples therapy and then it fucking blows a lot of the time and so i just feel an obligation to say that and so i don't think anyone is complaining as much as going hey just so you know if you don't do the inside work all this shit doesn't add up to much it doesn't fill that whole it is so so true and there were years and thank god people are talking about now but you know i i had talked early on in my career about struggling with depression right and i mean if you can even imagine really until Al Gore's wife, Tipper came out and talked about it before Congress, and people would never talk about depression.

[540] And, you know, that was a catalyst, but it took a long time before people would actually admit, yeah, I spent a lot of time in therapy.

[541] I had to sort out the things in my life that took me down, you know, and that I could not manage.

[542] And to be able to talk about that freely now is totally a gift.

[543] And I mean, I commend Taylor and anybody else, because generally if you're not talking about it and you're acting out situations like I think about Whitney, it just breaks my heart that there are people like that that can't be helped because there are people around them that don't want to alienate the paycheck or the money train and all that stuff when really we're just people, you know, that are broken like everybody else.

[544] Yeah.

[545] I think it's the coolest thing people can do.

[546] And I think for every one person that's saying shut the fuck up you're rich there's 12 other people depression that are embarrassed by that that go fuck well i look up to Cheryl crow if she's got it i don't feel like such a piece of shit well you know it's funny the relationship to money i can remember when i was a kid wanting an angora sweater because every kid had it and my parents not my parents were they're great people but you know they weren't just going to go buy me an angora sweater so by the time i earned my money babysitting nobody was wearing angora sweaters anymore and so my relationship to money is it's interesting when I started making money it became such a source of fear for me because you the more money you make the more you spend paying taxes and the bigger your like band crew and I felt like I'm overwhelmed by how much I don't know about money and it wasn't like I wouldn't just go spend it right I wouldn't go buy a fancy car I didn't care about fancy cars and And listen, I am grateful every single day.

[547] And I'm extremely grateful now.

[548] Yeah.

[549] Especially living in Nashville where people have lost their homes right before coronavirus even happened.

[550] But it's like you said, it's not going to fix everything.

[551] You know, at the end of the day, it's not going to make you happy.

[552] Yeah, you're not going to love the person you see in the mirror.

[553] Okay, so from the outside, I would imagine a lot of people would, they've just always remembered you being successful.

[554] But I was interested while reading about you.

[555] You had kind of a long walk there, which is, I have to imagine, useful in a lot of ways, as far as it wasn't a light switch, right?

[556] You were writing McDonald's jingles, which you must have loved, right?

[557] I read that you made $40 ,000 off one.

[558] Yeah, I actually was a school teacher.

[559] I taught elementary, public education, kindergarten through six, music in St. Louis.

[560] and I used to sing in a band on the weekends.

[561] I was engaged to a Christian guy who he and I were in a band together.

[562] He would like drink, smoke pot, be like, Mr. Personality the next day.

[563] I'm sorry, Lord, I'm going to change my ways, you know.

[564] So that was the, anyway, we're supposed to get married.

[565] We meet St. Louis.

[566] I get a teaching job.

[567] He gets a job.

[568] And then I get into a band and he's like, if you're not going to sing for the Lord, then forget it.

[569] And I was like, okay, this is too much, too much.

[570] So I taught for two years.

[571] I started getting some session work and I got a commercial for McDonald's and made way more than I had made in two years of teaching.

[572] So I started doing more of that and moved to L .A. took my tape to every, I mean, this is how totally naive I was.

[573] I was like, I have a great tape.

[574] I got my Thomas guide.

[575] I went to every studio in the greater Los Angeles area.

[576] Took my little cassette and eventually started getting some work and did a Johnny Mathis album.

[577] I was saying back up on a Johnny Mathis album.

[578] I called my parents.

[579] They're like, you can come home now.

[580] You've done it.

[581] You've made it.

[582] You don't need to do it.

[583] That's it.

[584] Johnny Mathis, you can't get higher than that.

[585] Come home.

[586] And then I've heard some singers talking about the Michael Jackson tour.

[587] So I crashed and I went up getting it.

[588] I went up going on the road for 18 months with him on the bad tour.

[589] So that's what that was one in particular where I was like, how cool do have been on the perimeter of something that gigantic?

[590] Oh my gosh, it was mind -blowing.

[591] I didn't even own a passport.

[592] I mean, we'd never been out of the country.

[593] So, I mean, as a family in the Midwest, literally I drove out to Los Angeles thinking, if I'm really nice, if I just really work hard, everything is going to work out the way it's supposed to.

[594] And, I mean, I think part of the naivete of that worked in my favor.

[595] Yeah.

[596] Who takes their cassette tape to every studio in a city of 40 million people or whatever.

[597] But, yeah, I mean, I think that worked in my favor.

[598] And then getting the Michael Jackson tour was just, I mean, it was incredible.

[599] And obviously, a lot's come out about him.

[600] But for me, I got to watch him every night, even though, listen, strange dude, right?

[601] Sure, sure.

[602] But I got to watch him and sing with him and see why some people are so tapped into the divinity of inspiration and also so bogged down and just the fragility of ego.

[603] I mean, there's just, I guess with almost every great artist of that magnitude, I mean, even looking at Whitney, just that horrible pull that is one of the reasons we love.

[604] lose people along the way.

[605] It's just, I can't imagine having that kind of stardom.

[606] You know, I wouldn't even want it.

[607] Yeah.

[608] Well, and then also just the duality that these people have.

[609] And then even Michael, you watch that documentary and you see the, the elaborate circus that was going on to perpetuate all that stuff and how much mental, it must have occupied so much of his mind, and yet he's doing this other thing.

[610] It almost seems like there's no way someone could do both of those things at the same time, and yet many people do.

[611] Yeah, it's so wild.

[612] Yeah, so when I got started, my first record came out when I was 30.

[613] I was already like elder statesman by the time I came out.

[614] But all that to say, it was kind of great because I already knew I was already sort of an adult by that time, you know?

[615] Yeah, and that would be a big asset of at all.

[616] But I was wondering because I started working professionally at like 28 or 9, and I had been in L .A. for 10 years trying.

[617] And I was definitely starting to accept the fact, oh, this is not going to happen.

[618] Were you starting to have those fears?

[619] I did.

[620] Well, I came on from the Michael Jackson tour and I couldn't get arrested.

[621] I had all these record levels interested in a pop star, but that wasn't what I was doing.

[622] I didn't even know how to do that.

[623] So I went back to waiting tables and there was like two or three years in there where, you know, and I slipped my cassette tape to Sting's producer at a party and that's how I got signed.

[624] I'd been turned down by everybody and that's how I got signed.

[625] Wow.

[626] No kidding.

[627] So, yeah.

[628] And I made a record with his producer which I felt like was really slick and it just, you know, it sounded like Sting who's fantastic, but I wasn't staying.

[629] And so that record never came out.

[630] And so by that time I'm thinking this isn't going to happen.

[631] And I wound up hanging out with some friends and We started recording, and I started making a record unbeknownst in my record.

[632] That was the record that came out.

[633] And I really heard nothing on that record, the Tuesdaysaint Music Club record, that I thought would ever get radio plays.

[634] So, yeah, it was really shocking.

[635] But the thing that I did and that I have always done up until really since breast cancer, BC, I just never stopped working.

[636] I mean, we toured it.

[637] It started to blow up.

[638] I won Grammys.

[639] And then it really blew up, but I never stopped to say, wow.

[640] I made it.

[641] We just kept working, kept working, kept working.

[642] It was like we drove through, picked up some Grammys, and the next day we were in San Francisco playing, and it was like it never happened.

[643] So I never really owned any of it.

[644] I never internally felt like, okay, I deserve this.

[645] It was just part of my whole, you know, I suck.

[646] Yeah.

[647] I mean, if I could go back now, there were several, not several, there are people involved all on the way that I would tell to F off, you know, if I could go back.

[648] And, you know, but, I don't know.

[649] Do you look at it and go, had I been a hard ask?

[650] Would I have sustained or was it the nice guy that didn't peeve people off that sort of kept me afloat as well?

[651] So I don't know.

[652] I just, I look back on it and yeah, I do.

[653] I wish I would have been more present.

[654] I wish I could have absorbed a little bit of the joy from it.

[655] But I'm happy now, you know.

[656] You are also a handicap by being a woman, right?

[657] So if you're assertive and take care of your your ship it's not seen as that it's seen as you're a bitch or a diva or all these things right yeah this other layer that sting's not really dealing with yeah yeah and you know god forbid you come off like that yeah you know now i think it's changed a little not enough but i think it's changed a little bit but yeah that was that was a rude awakening because i can remember my second record i started it and my producer flew home on the second day And, you know, he didn't like the studio.

[658] It was just really unhappy, unnerved.

[659] And so I called my manager, he's like, you don't need a producer.

[660] Just produce it yourself.

[661] You know what you're doing.

[662] And when he called the record, I said she's going to produce it.

[663] They were just like, what?

[664] You know, that is, no, she can't.

[665] She can't produce.

[666] And just the idea that a woman wouldn't have the wherewithal to know what makes a great record and what doesn't, too risky to have a woman in charge.

[667] I mean, I think some of that has changed by now, I hope, but it took a long time.

[668] Yeah.

[669] So your most recent album, Threads, let me transition by saying, isn't part of that thing the regret of not being present?

[670] For me personally, it just has a goal I have is like, I just want to love process so much.

[671] And I just want to forget about results.

[672] And the more I've been able to do that, not always successfully.

[673] you know, the better it all is.

[674] And I just wonder, has that been your journey as well?

[675] It's just to love the experience of creating the music.

[676] Yeah, definitely the last two albums were that for me, and particularly threads, because there was a moment when I went and worked with Chris Christopherson, who have known for many years.

[677] And we were doing the 40th anniversary for Austin City Limits and his wife said, will you go in?

[678] We want to record as many of his songs for posterity as we can so that he owns his master.

[679] So went in and, you know, he wasn't making short -term memories.

[680] He had issue that kind of replicated dementia or Alzheimer's.

[681] And to be around someone who could tell you everything about the 60s, the 70s, the 80s people, you know, experiences, but not remember us having recorded something like five minutes ago.

[682] It was so jarring, but also witnessing the thread of me. music and how it really tethered him to who he was in his past.

[683] I mean, it's just, I can't even explain what an epiphanal moment it was for me. When I came home from Austin, I called my friend Steve Jordan and I said, I want to create more musical experiences that tether me to who I am and where I'm from and why I'm doing what I'm doing.

[684] And that revolved around James Taylor and Carol King.

[685] People who I laid under the piano and looked at the albums and listened to the records over and over, dropped the needle, knew, you know, they were my way out of my hometown.

[686] They were the reason that I saw myself leaving.

[687] And every kid has that story.

[688] The people that were so important to them that they never met.

[689] And I was lucky enough to meet them and ask them to be a part of this record.

[690] And that's what the record is.

[691] It's the most incredible thing.

[692] And to me, what seems obvious about this album is like, you going, oh, no, I earned all these relationships, and now I'm going to fucking party with these people regardless, just for the sake of it.

[693] Yeah, and you know, the funny thing was about it, like we didn't really start out with a list of people.

[694] I just knew, and I talked to Steve, the producer Steve Jordan, who's just ridiculously off the hook, amazing.

[695] He said, do you want to make a list?

[696] I was like, no, I just want to write songs, and I want to listen and see who comes out in them.

[697] And I want to remember all the people that taught me how to play by ear, who taught me how to play guitar because I wanted to learn that song.

[698] And that's how it started, and that's actually where it wound up as well.

[699] And at the end of the day, I was so nervous about people thinking, oh, she's trying to make an album that is just a list of people, but it really wasn't.

[700] In fact, after we did the Johnny Cash song, I told Steve, I was like, I don't want to make any more albums.

[701] This is it for me. There's nothing after this that can hold the weight of this project or mean as much.

[702] Songs, yes, albums never.

[703] Just couldn't do it.

[704] So Keith Richards, now when you work with him, do you say to him, like, give me one of those fucking tasty licks, like, do you come in with an idea?

[705] Or how does like a collaboration with him work?

[706] Actually, he is, the Rolling Stones were one of the first acts that I ever worked with.

[707] And when I came out, it was like Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Hull, Beck, REM, and I was doing this other thing.

[708] And I was tragically not hip.

[709] Like, I wasn't accepted by any of those people.

[710] And I felt like I wasn't invited to the party.

[711] Do you know what I mean?

[712] I felt like I was too clean around the edges.

[713] I don't know.

[714] I mean, I just felt like a total outsider.

[715] But my roots were all steeped in like this other thing anyway.

[716] So it was like in the Rolling Stones and in Willie and Flying Blonde.

[717] Brito brothers and, I mean, so many artists that I loved, and they started kind of embracing me. And so the Rolling Stones asked me in 1996 or seven to come play with them.

[718] And I just developed a relationship mostly with Keith after that and played with them.

[719] So I called him, and we've collaborated before, but I actually called Jane that works with him and said, I want to do the worst.

[720] It's a song he wrote, was on steel wheels, one of my favorite country songs ever.

[721] And I said, do you think he would record it with me?

[722] and she's like, I'm sure he would.

[723] And so we went to New York.

[724] And Steve, the producer, plays in the expensive winos and produces those records, too, Keith's records.

[725] So we spent three days in New York hanging out and recording and laughing and just, I mean, the guy is so everything that you hope he's going to be.

[726] There's nothing I can tell you that would surprise you, except for the fact that he's brilliantly, I mean, he's so well read.

[727] He's read everything, including the Bible.

[728] guy is I mean he's just incredibly smart and so it was really a joy it could have taken us like three or four hours to record that song but we were in the studio for like two or three days oh that's awesome and then stevie nix to sing with stevie nix i mean for me fleetwood mac to me says my mom's happy while cleaning the house i love that yeah she um i met her at a grammy's um i think actually it was nineteen ninety six it was the gramees the year that my first record won a bunch of a And I met her in an after -party, and we said, we should get together.

[729] And, of course, I'm like, no, you don't understand.

[730] I had the shag and the shawls, you know, in college.

[731] And then she called me and asked me if I would do some producing for her.

[732] So I worked with her.

[733] And then I went on the road with her.

[734] I was, like, in the coven of witches, you know.

[735] But I love and adore her.

[736] And, I mean, I could say, we say she's, even though I don't see her enough, she's a sister from a different, what is it, a sister from a different mother?

[737] Yeah, she's fantastic.

[738] She's actually the first person I called after Chris and just said, I have a song.

[739] I wonder if you do it with me. And she's like, absolutely.

[740] How fun.

[741] Okay, I want to ask you a couple stupid questions.

[742] What are you binging right now?

[743] Did you watch Tiger King?

[744] I watched Tiger King.

[745] I felt impressed after I watched it.

[746] Oh, you did?

[747] Yes.

[748] I just wanted them, I wanted them all to go to jail.

[749] Oh, okay.

[750] I'd be honest with you, I binge watch the good place.

[751] Oh, yes, a good one.

[752] I had so many people say, okay, you got to watch that.

[753] It's incredible.

[754] And it is so great.

[755] I went from Tiger King to I'm reading The Overstory.

[756] Do you know that book?

[757] No. Do you know that?

[758] Yeah.

[759] Is it the tree?

[760] Yes.

[761] Yeah.

[762] Yeah, it sounds super boring, but it's incredible.

[763] But it's really a lot to bite off.

[764] I mean, it's incredible.

[765] I try to read all the Pulitzer Prize winning books.

[766] I'm a slow reader, which is great for my 12 -year -old because he hates reading.

[767] I'm like, look, I'm a slow reader.

[768] I hated reading, but you will someday like it.

[769] Yeah.

[770] But that's a great book.

[771] So I've replaced binge watching with that for the time of it until I finish it.

[772] Well, Sherr, I really hope we get to do this in person sometime.

[773] I would love it.

[774] Do you ever come to L .A.?

[775] We love Nashville.

[776] We did a live show.

[777] We did two live shows there like three months ago with...

[778] I know.

[779] Actually, Liz went.

[780] Oh, really?

[781] Yeah, Dirk Spendley and Martina.

[782] I've actually known Martina for years and I love her.

[783] Actually, you know, it's an interesting thing.

[784] Moving to Nashville 14 or 15 years ago, I had never had friends in my business.

[785] I mean, there weren't that many women.

[786] There was Madonna and Paula Abdul.

[787] And then along the way, there were other artists that came along, like through Lilith and stuff, but not people I hung out with because I just wasn't, I never really lived anywhere.

[788] I was always on the road and stuff.

[789] Moved here and they're just incredible women here from and they're friends.

[790] We hang out and I see them.

[791] Dirk's Bentley's wife is a really good friend of mine and Keith Urban's wife is a really good friend of mine.

[792] That's funny to hear.

[793] Yeah, isn't that funny?

[794] I know.

[795] But here, actually, she's, that's what she is here.

[796] Keith Urban's wife, yeah.

[797] Yeah, that's crazy.

[798] Wow.

[799] Yeah.

[800] Well, I'm Kristen Bell's husband, but I think that's everywhere.

[801] I can live with that.

[802] And then the last thing is, do you still do TM?

[803] I don't do TM.

[804] I have been doing for the better part of, I want to say 16 years, mindfulness.

[805] Okay.

[806] Meditation.

[807] I studied with a woman named Sharon Salzberg, who wrote Compassion.

[808] She wrote Faith and she wrote mindfulness.

[809] And it's basically based in breath and just, you know, noticing.

[810] And she actually, told me something once that was on that tip of being grateful.

[811] When I went and saw her, I'd been going through a bunch of stuff and she said, you know, the thing that can change the whole trajectory of your life is whatever the tape loop is, is stopping and saying, thank you for infinite possibility.

[812] And just constantly saying that over and over.

[813] And I do it all the time.

[814] Like when things are really hard, I can't understand what I'm supposed to be doing.

[815] Thank you for infinite possibility.

[816] because you limit yourself by what it is you know or expect or what you envision for yourself.

[817] And that can be so much smaller than what can be.

[818] And I've seen incredible things happen just from that posture of gratitude.

[819] So I love that you're into the posture of gratitude.

[820] I'm so all about that and infinite possibility.

[821] So, yeah, that's the kind of meditation that I do.

[822] I said last thing, but I lied.

[823] Do you like the fact?

[824] And I'm not asking who it is, because I don't really care.

[825] But isn't it fun that my favorite mistake has a lore around it in the same way as you're so vain?

[826] Yes, people ask me who my favorite mistake is about, and I always say Warren Beatty.

[827] Oh, yeah, that's good.

[828] That's good.

[829] That's what people speculated about you're so vain.

[830] Yes, yes.

[831] And I used to get asked that a lot.

[832] Like, who is it about?

[833] And people would say, oh, it's about Eric.

[834] I've been heard about.

[835] And I would never tell.

[836] Yeah, no, I like that.

[837] I just like that you have a song that has some lore.

[838] And then on the topic of, um, you're so vain, I bet you think this song is about you.

[839] This is a personal issue I have with that song.

[840] It is about him.

[841] Yes.

[842] Yeah.

[843] It is about him.

[844] That's right.

[845] And whoever my favorite mistake is probably knows that song is about him.

[846] Oh, okay.

[847] Okay.

[848] But it wouldn't be who people think it was.

[849] Right.

[850] Right.

[851] Well, I think now's the time We should admit to people that we dated for six months, and that it's about me. He wants all the songs to be about him.

[852] He thought one of Taylor Swift songs was about him.

[853] Well, I know it is.

[854] He's so tall and handsome as hell.

[855] He's so bad, but he doesn't.

[856] When I heard her singing that, I thought, I wonder if that's about Dax Shepherd.

[857] Oh, my God.

[858] Yes, Monica.

[859] Yeah.

[860] Well, Cheryl, we like you, and I'm so tickled to have met you.

[861] it's great to meet you too you said this is your last album or approaching your last album we don't need to make that declaration who knows we don't have to yeah you know what we live in America we can do whatever we want yeah someone might just hit record sometime and it might end up I might have 14 songs ready to go actually this is what kind of how I look at it I'm going to keep writing I'm going to put songs out and then if people want to put together a playlist of all those new songs I put out and we can call it an album That is great.

[862] Okay, wonderful.

[863] Bada -bing, Bada -boom.

[864] Yeah.

[865] Well, stay safe.

[866] You too and stay healthy.

[867] All right.

[868] Well, we adore you and we will talk to you again too.

[869] Bye.

[870] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[871] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[872] Alert.

[873] Hi.

[874] You're wearing U of M colors.

[875] accident.

[876] I'm not for U of M. Can't you have multiple schools you root for?

[877] No. No?

[878] I didn't go to U of M, but I have a warm spot in my heart for it.

[879] Sure.

[880] I guess you can like other schools.

[881] Yeah, there's a bunch.

[882] We like Stanford a bunch.

[883] I didn't go there.

[884] I am a loyalist, though.

[885] So I have to be loyal to my school.

[886] Right.

[887] We didn't find out where Cheryl Crow likes.

[888] No, but she lives in now.

[889] Nashville.

[890] So she probably likes UT.

[891] Yeah, but she went to Missouri State College or something.

[892] Oh, God.

[893] She's conflicted.

[894] She probably is.

[895] Are you proud of me?

[896] I didn't ask her if she pronounces it, Missouri.

[897] I am proud of you.

[898] I didn't think about that.

[899] I wanted to, but I didn't because I thought it would annoy you.

[900] So I decided not to.

[901] I'm sorry that you feel I have such a stick up my ass that you can't say things.

[902] You can say whatever you want.

[903] All right.

[904] We had fun with Cheryl.

[905] Yeah, we did.

[906] I'm always conflicted about talking about people's looks, but fuck, overwhelming how good she looked.

[907] It just knocked me off my chair.

[908] Uh -huh.

[909] Her skin is beautiful.

[910] She looked 10 years younger than me. She looked very young.

[911] Yes.

[912] How about what if I do?

[913] She's not old at all, but she looks much younger than her actual age.

[914] Mm -hmm.

[915] Her numerical age.

[916] Wait till I get that stuff they're doing with the epigenome, the rats.

[917] You can't wait.

[918] Oh, my God.

[919] Every time we interview someone, they're going to, like, fall out of their chair.

[920] How young I look, a little baby.

[921] You know, parenthood's on Hulu.

[922] Right, it's made its way from Netflix over to Hulu.

[923] Yes, and I found out the other day, and I was watching, as I went to sleep, I turned on the pilot.

[924] Oh.

[925] And you look so different.

[926] Oh, man, I got a lot.

[927] I mean, you look the same, of course.

[928] And you look young.

[929] You look way younger also than your numerical age now.

[930] Oh, now.

[931] But you do look like a baby boy.

[932] I do.

[933] Yeah.

[934] Playing grown up.

[935] I mean, when was that?

[936] 2010?

[937] I remember being, I want to say I was like 33 or four when we started.

[938] Oh, okay.

[939] Yeah, you look like a little baby boy.

[940] And it's funny.

[941] One of our friends, someone posted a picture of her, and she looked so, I mean, she just looked like a baby girl.

[942] And it was shocking.

[943] And she ended up getting kind of upset about it.

[944] Oh, okay.

[945] She didn't like that everyone's reaction was like, oh, my God.

[946] Oh, because she felt like now she looks old, that that was the subtext?

[947] I think there was multiple things.

[948] I think some people said, oh, you've aged great.

[949] Okay.

[950] And then I think maybe that made her feel like, oh, then I didn't look good then.

[951] Well, it's probably like me. I'll find a way to make even the most bulletproof compliment negative.

[952] I know.

[953] Yeah.

[954] So did it hurt your feelings when I just said just now that you looked young?

[955] No. I'm sure?

[956] You can say yes.

[957] No, I didn't.

[958] Do you have fear about looking old?

[959] I have had fear about looking old.

[960] Yeah.

[961] I don't currently.

[962] Yeah.

[963] Yeah, I haven't really thought about it much for the last couple years, I'll say.

[964] I don't either.

[965] And then every now and then I'll get very scared.

[966] Like, I was showing someone recently a picture of my parents and I was like looking through old stuff and I found this picture of me. I must have been five or something.

[967] But I was with my mom and...

[968] She was your current age?

[969] She was around my current age, yeah Uh -huh And the parents will always do it to you She looked so young Uh -huh And she also looks very, very good for her age But she still looks different Sure, sure There's a part of me that I think when I see that For a long time I've just been like Well, I'm just gonna look like this forever Uh -huh And I'm not gonna Well, probably not Unless the mice Experiment Yeah, yeah, it gets to you now before the damage is done.

[970] I guess the age thing I dislike more what it represents, just that I'm getting closer to the end.

[971] It's not like that my vanity is going, oh, I'm unattractive now that I'm older because thank God for men, you know, generally we're accepted as we age.

[972] And so the stakes aren't nearly as high.

[973] But I'm an actor and I do think about like, oh, that's a role I couldn't play anymore or maybe someone wouldn't hire me for that now.

[974] Now he should have grandkids and shows I do.

[975] Grandkids, yeah, right.

[976] Even though I have baby children.

[977] Although Joy has a grand kid in her show, yeah.

[978] Yeah.

[979] Like, I know it's like one of those existential topics, aging and death and getting older, but I've never really felt it until sort of recently.

[980] You're also, you benefit from hanging out with generally people that are much older than you.

[981] That's true.

[982] So you're always the youngest in the group, but close to it.

[983] That's why it's poor.

[984] I interviewed Zoe.

[985] Yeah, Zoe Kravitz.

[986] Yeah, it gets harder, right?

[987] And so for me, everyone, generally everyone interviews younger than me, which is a mind fuck.

[988] Yeah.

[989] There's all these benchmarks that make me feel older.

[990] So it used to be that like the football players in the NFL were so much older than me. Sure.

[991] And then at one point, I was older than them.

[992] I could see I was older than them, yet they look so masculine.

[993] I feel like they looked older even though I was much older than them.

[994] But anyways, now certainly there's many.

[995] coaches in the league that are my age.

[996] And so then I'm like, oh, wow.

[997] So now I'm in identifying with the coaches.

[998] And then that's pretty much a wrap.

[999] Well, I guess our presidents will be very, very old for the next four years, either of our presidents.

[1000] Yeah, like if Mayor Pete ended up becoming president, he's younger than you.

[1001] Oh, by a lot.

[1002] So that's crazy.

[1003] Yeah.

[1004] So there shouldn't be a president younger than me. But also there should be.

[1005] I don't know about all these old old presidents.

[1006] I'm with you.

[1007] It's good a young guy.

[1008] done in there.

[1009] All right.

[1010] Well, we're old.

[1011] Yeah.

[1012] It's happening.

[1013] So Cheryl, she said that there are some studies that music changes the shape of yourselves.

[1014] I found a couple things about music and its effect.

[1015] I'm going to read it.

[1016] Okay, great.

[1017] I just want the listener to know what's going on.

[1018] You had a gel manicure that you kicked off over the last two hours.

[1019] I have two fingers left.

[1020] Here on the couch.

[1021] And there's just a big, big pile of de Briss on the floor next to your couch.

[1022] But I'm also noticing And your computer picked up quite a bit of Debris, too.

[1023] Oh.

[1024] There's little white flicks all over.

[1025] Oh, boy, sure did.

[1026] Yeah.

[1027] Oh.

[1028] Does it gross you out?

[1029] Not at all, no. For real?

[1030] Yeah, not at all.

[1031] Because I know that I found this out recently that one time Kristen put her fingernails on your play and you didn't like that.

[1032] My active dinner play.

[1033] And I don't love fingernails.

[1034] So if next to your couch right now is a pile of fingernail clippings, yeah, that'd be a little more disturbing.

[1035] You wouldn't love it.

[1036] No, I'd be like, let's just keep them in a dish or something.

[1037] I'm not grossed out by him, but I don't think they should be scattered about the floor.

[1038] But just gel manicure residue, you don't mind.

[1039] No, it's just a little bits of paint.

[1040] Even though it looks, to me, it looks like fingernails.

[1041] It does also look like fingernails, yeah.

[1042] Okay, it said, the effective music on our body chemistry is particularly fascinating.

[1043] Our bodies effectively contain an internal pharmacy that dispenses various chemicals to help us deal with life's challenges.

[1044] For example, if you're in a dangerous situation, you'll receive a shot of adrenaline, to give you energy.

[1045] If you do something which is good for you, you get a dose of serotonin, which encourages you to do the same thing again.

[1046] Research has revealed that music holds the keys to your body's pharmacy and can promote or suppress the release of these chemicals.

[1047] For example, loud and rhythmic music can increase your adrenaline levels, which will help to keep you awake during a long, boring drive.

[1048] But in the case of insomnia, relaxing music can help you drop off to sleep by reducing the amount of, quote, vigilance chemical, nor adrenaline, in your system.

[1049] Just half an hour of common classical music at bedtime can help you to reestablish a healthy sleep pattern.

[1050] And then, so there's this experiment.

[1051] There was an experiment.

[1052] Professors North and Hargraves put music speakers on the top shelf of an end of an aisle wine display in a supermarket to see if different sorts of music could influence the choices we make.

[1053] The display consisted of four shelves, each of which had a French wine on one side and a German wine on the other.

[1054] The wines on each shelf were matched for price and sweetness, dryness, so there was a fair competition between the two countries.

[1055] Then all they had to do was change the music occasionally and monitor which wines were bought when each type of music was playing.

[1056] The results were astonishing.

[1057] With no music playing, the French wine was slightly more popular than the German.

[1058] However, when they played German music through the speakers, the German wines sold twice as fast as the French stuff.

[1059] Oh, wow.

[1060] When they played French music, the French bottle sold five times as fast as the German ones.

[1061] Oh, wow.

[1062] It also kind of proves that the French culture is three and a half times is appealing.

[1063] Because it's sold that much drastic.

[1064] But it's also when no music plays, French is got a little edge.

[1065] It's got a little edge.

[1066] Because I associate France with wine more than German, even though the Rhine Valley is there.

[1067] Exactly.

[1068] I think we already were preconditioned to think of wine in France.

[1069] In stereotypical German music, I'm hearing polka.

[1070] You know, right?

[1071] I don't want to do anything.

[1072] I want to get away from that music.

[1073] And then I hear, you know, the French, like, cafe music.

[1074] I want to be at a cafe, sipping wine.

[1075] Sure.

[1076] So the power of their cultures feels like it's applied.

[1077] But when the German music, people didn't want to get away, they bought that German wine right up.

[1078] Twice as fast.

[1079] Yeah.

[1080] Yeah, just the subconscious that we are just not in charge.

[1081] Oh, yeah.

[1082] Long before I was in drugs or alcohol, I think how I regulated my mood was music.

[1083] I'd hop in my bedroom, put on that new wave music, and just dream about being in love, and I would feel in love.

[1084] I know.

[1085] I think for love addicts, music can be harmful.

[1086] Sure, sure, sure.

[1087] Because it really, it really takes you into that fantasy land.

[1088] It does.

[1089] It can be harmful for normal addicts, too, because when I hear either Bob Seeger or Whalen Jennings on a warm summer day, like in Michigan.

[1090] You want to drink.

[1091] I can taste beer.

[1092] Yeah, yeah.

[1093] I can taste it.

[1094] No, it does.

[1095] Music does time travel you.

[1096] It's like visceral.

[1097] You can feel the way you felt in that moment.

[1098] It's just crazy.

[1099] It's so special.

[1100] That's one thing humans can do that animals can't, right?

[1101] Well, whale sing songs, I guess.

[1102] But not to the level that we're making music.

[1103] No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, so eneograms.

[1104] Yes.

[1105] I wanted us to take the test before we did this fact.

[1106] but then we didn't.

[1107] I want to break down these people, these types, okay?

[1108] And then you can tell me what you think you are, and then I'll tell you what I think I am, and then we'll come back next week having done the test.

[1109] One, type one, or Enneagram 1, the reformer.

[1110] caring generous people pleasing and intrusive dislike solitude and impersonal dealings attracted to service and making personal connections type three the achiever adaptable self -developing efficient and image conscious dislike ineffectiveness and lack of ambition attracted to success and recognition that's you think so far yeah okay you think okay type four the individual individualist, intuitive, expressive, individualistic, and temperamental, dislike uniformity and regulation, attracted to creativity, and putting their personal mark on things.

[1111] So far, of the options, I'm leaning towards that, yeah, okay.

[1112] Okay, type five, the investigator, perceptive, innovative, secretive, and detached, dislike intrusions on their time and space, attracted to depth and learning.

[1113] Okay.

[1114] That sounds nice.

[1115] Type 6.

[1116] The Loyalist.

[1117] Committed, responsible, anxious, and suspicious.

[1118] Dislike unpredictability and rapid change.

[1119] Attracted to clear structures and foresight.

[1120] Okay.

[1121] Not you.

[1122] You don't think so?

[1123] No. Not more than the achiever.

[1124] Oh, this is interesting.

[1125] Type 7.

[1126] The enthusiast.

[1127] Spontaneous, versatile, talkative, and scattered.

[1128] Dislike limitations and routines.

[1129] attracted to new possibilities and excitement.

[1130] That is not me. No. Is that you, do you think?

[1131] A bit.

[1132] The wanderlust part of me. New possibilities and excitement.

[1133] Yeah, I like being excited.

[1134] Dislike limitations and routines.

[1135] Yeah, but I like routines.

[1136] I'm a creature of habit.

[1137] Yeah.

[1138] Yeah.

[1139] And I wouldn't necessarily call you spontaneous.

[1140] Yeah, okay.

[1141] Like I'm never like, oh, what's he going to do?

[1142] Oh, right, right.

[1143] Sure, sure.

[1144] Which I like, because I'm not, I don't like that necessarily.

[1145] And I don't think you're scattered.

[1146] I don't think so either.

[1147] Okay, so I don't think you're this.

[1148] Okay, type eight, the Challenger.

[1149] Uh -oh.

[1150] This could be me. And you.

[1151] I know.

[1152] Type 8 the Challenger.

[1153] Self -confident, decisive, willful, and confrontational.

[1154] Oh, boy.

[1155] Dislike indecisiveness and indirectness.

[1156] Attracted to strength and strategic action.

[1157] Yeah.

[1158] Yeah, that sounds like you.

[1159] And you.

[1160] I wonder if I'm attracted to strength.

[1161] I probably am.

[1162] Emotional strength.

[1163] Well, no, I know you are control over one's being master of oneself.

[1164] Yeah.

[1165] No, I do like that.

[1166] Yeah, I like when people seem like they have it figured out.

[1167] Uh -huh.

[1168] Even though I know nobody has it figured out, but that they're trying to have it figured out.

[1169] Yeah, and that they're kind of like regimented in control of themselves.

[1170] Yeah.

[1171] You know, it's kind of Freudian, I guess, will.

[1172] say yeah my dad has just the most discipline of anyone i've ever met really it's my mom always gives my dad that comp well via me she always gives my dad that compliment and it's true and i do like that in people yeah i bet that's from him which is interesting it's so interesting i hope if you're a parent you're complimenting your spouse in front of your children It really makes an impact.

[1173] It really makes an impact.

[1174] For me, for me anyway.

[1175] I like remember those moments.

[1176] Okay.

[1177] Type 9.

[1178] Last one.

[1179] Peacemaker.

[1180] That's not us.

[1181] No. Calm.

[1182] Peace breakers.

[1183] Calm, reassuring, agreeable and complacent.

[1184] No. Dislike.

[1185] Tension and conflict attracted to harmony and stability.

[1186] That's not us.

[1187] Boring.

[1188] Well, no, no, no, no, no. Boring.

[1189] No, no, none of them are boring.

[1190] We love them all.

[1191] Yeah, so I feel like there's two I gravitated towards.

[1192] I love that there was one that I thought was certainly you and not me. And then I love that there was one that I thought was both of us.

[1193] Right.

[1194] Okay, so you think you're the challenger.

[1195] Yep.

[1196] And the individualist?

[1197] Was that what it was?

[1198] Yeah, the individualist was type four, intuitive, expressive, individualistic, and temperamental, dislike uniformity and regulation, attracted to creativity and putting their personal mark on things.

[1199] That does sound like you.

[1200] Yeah, but I do think the challenger probably more sounds like me. Yeah.

[1201] I mean, I would like it to be the other one more, but I think in truth it's more the challenger.

[1202] I think you're pretty challenging, too.

[1203] I do too.

[1204] I wonder if I would get that on a test.

[1205] Don't you think it would be more accurate than one of us to take this test to just have 10 people read that list and say what you are and see if there's, like, total consensus among the people that know you?

[1206] Maybe, but I also wonder, like, what it is we've decided to become versus what our instincts are.

[1207] I totally agree, because, you know, I've had, like, two drastically different personalities through when I was an addict and when I'm not.

[1208] Yeah.

[1209] I know.

[1210] I guess you're supposed to take it as now.

[1211] Like, I'm a thief?

[1212] No, I'm not a thief, but have I been a thief when I was an addict?

[1213] Did it ask you that?

[1214] I think it's who you are now.

[1215] Yeah, I guess who needs the name?

[1216] number that of their when they were in their 20s doesn't do any good you need the number now to apply it to anything yeah i think it's who you are now but i am curious about who you are at like age 12 because i think that's really who you are yeah and then we we place all this other stuff on top we try out a bunch of different personalities yeah and it's like what we're getting validation results yeah or they just lead us into sorrow you know it would be really interesting if we asked a bunch of people what they think our number is.

[1217] And depending on the social circle, like if I ask our friends here and then I ask my friends from home, I wonder if it'll be the same.

[1218] Oh, yes.

[1219] If I asked my Michigan friends to explain me and use a bunch of adjectives, I doubt that any of my current friendship circle would use the same adjectives.

[1220] Yeah.

[1221] Other than maybe funny would make it into both lists.

[1222] Yeah.

[1223] But that's probably it.

[1224] Sometimes I get scared about that.

[1225] Like, does it mean we're just, like, not, malleable?

[1226] Yeah, we don't have any personalities.

[1227] We're just, like, decide.

[1228] I don't know.

[1229] I think everyone will assimilate to their group on some level.

[1230] There'll be a level within their group.

[1231] Yeah.

[1232] But overall, there'll be, like, some general movement towards the group, I think.

[1233] Yeah.

[1234] Or, like, finding your niche within the group.

[1235] Maybe you're needed more in a certain way in one group than you are in another, so that thing shines more in that group.

[1236] Well, this is what I've always thought is, like, if you considered yourself liberal or conservative as a teen, before there's really camps, and it's something you define about yourself, and then you join the liberal camp, you're kind of then forced to get even extra liberal so that you still feel more progressive than your peers because that's a feeling you're familiar with.

[1237] Or conversely, if you're conservative, but then now you're actually in a group of conservative people, but you still want to feel uniquely conservative.

[1238] I feel like you can drive people further in directions when they find, quote, their twib.

[1239] That's true, yeah.

[1240] What do you think Kristen is?

[1241] Read the helper again?

[1242] The helper is type two.

[1243] It's caring, generous, people pleasing, and intrusive, dislike solitude and impersonal dealings, attracted to service and making personal connections.

[1244] Yeah, it's not a perfect description of her, but certainly a lot of.

[1245] of those qualities.

[1246] Yeah, because also type 9 is peacemaker, calm, reassuring, agreeable, and complacent.

[1247] I don't think that's her either.

[1248] Dislike tension and conflict, attracted to harmony and stability.

[1249] I bet a good indicator of what one you are is if you hear no negatives in the description.

[1250] So like in a lot of these I hear pejoratives, or what I would say are pejorative, complacency.

[1251] Yeah, I don't like that, yeah.

[1252] But then the other ones seem to just have all positive words in the description.

[1253] Like the ones you like?

[1254] Yeah, so I think it's probably.

[1255] telling if you find some of those words pejoratives are positive.

[1256] I do not think a lot of people would read the Challenger and think it's all positive.

[1257] Right.

[1258] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1259] But those all sound positive to me. I like stuff like this.

[1260] Yeah, it's fun.

[1261] All right.

[1262] So Tipper Gore, she said, was kind of one of the first people to sort of speak publicly about depression and sort of put it on the radar.

[1263] Yeah, she frequently spoke about her own experience with depression and treatment following the near fatal injury of her son Albert, along with her work in mental health, Gore was a part of several other initiatives during her time as second lady.

[1264] I bet I would feel triggered if someone was calling me the second lady.

[1265] All of it's not good.

[1266] Yeah, even the first lady's a rough moniker.

[1267] I agree.

[1268] Okay, so the phrase is sister from another mister.

[1269] You guys were botching all that up.

[1270] Oh, because brother from another mother, or sister from another mister.

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] And that's all.

[1273] That was all.

[1274] I'm glad we straightened that out at the end.

[1275] I'm sure a lot of people were screaming.

[1276] Sister of another mother.

[1277] They were probably going around town using it and people were rolling their eyes at them.

[1278] Yeah, looking at them like they're crazy.

[1279] Yeah.

[1280] So you saved a lot of people.

[1281] All right, I love you.

[1282] Love you.

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