Charlie Day

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Minnie Padman.

[3] How you doing?

[4] I'm doing okay.

[5] You're fresh off the boat from Michigan.

[6] You went without me. I feel double crossed.

[7] I know.

[8] I wanted you to be there.

[9] I drove by a mire.

[10] Ah, I thought you did.

[11] I did.

[12] Boy, we went there a couple thousand times on that trip.

[13] We were there every 15 minutes.

[14] I know.

[15] Today we have one of my favorite comedians.

[16] He's so dang likable.

[17] I've had the great pleasure of acting.

[18] in one episode of television with him on his own TV show.

[19] Of course, he's also partners with our heartthrob McElhenny.

[20] Robert.

[21] Uh, Charlie Day.

[22] He's an actor, a screenwriter, a producer, and a director.

[23] He, of course, is in and created It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

[24] He's in the Lego movie.

[25] A couple of those horrible bosses films, Pacific Rim and Fist Fight with Ice Cube.

[26] Mm -hmm.

[27] He's got a new movie that he wrote, directed, and starting called El Tonto, which will be released shortly.

[28] At some point, it was.

[29] will be released and you should see it.

[30] Look for it, El Tonto.

[31] So please enjoy the ever -intertaining and interesting Charlie Day.

[32] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[33] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[34] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[35] I'm going to take my hat off because it's sort of a warm hat for a day.

[36] That was a mistake.

[37] So, Charlie, you're one of the, I think, one of the few guests.

[38] In fact, we had our first guest that walked over.

[39] In fact, Friday, weirdly, he walked and got lost, and then we had to find him.

[40] Good for him for getting lost.

[41] In this day and age of technology, too.

[42] It takes a special kind of defiance to not, it's impossible to get lost now, right?

[43] It really is.

[44] You have to make a decision to get lost.

[45] Yeah, yeah.

[46] Yeah.

[47] I even thought about that, too, walking down here.

[48] I was like, maybe I'll walk with no phone.

[49] Yeah, I saw on the map where you are.

[50] I know where I live.

[51] Yeah.

[52] So I'm like, this will be easy.

[53] And then I thought, no, that's too, I can't do it.

[54] I can't do it.

[55] The big earthquake hits.

[56] I don't have my phone.

[57] Yeah, you're absolutely right.

[58] You might witness a crime?

[59] Yeah, there you go.

[60] Have you witnessed any crime in our neighborhood?

[61] I'm not, but I, like, am super non -observant.

[62] Okay.

[63] Oh, no, that's not true.

[64] I got woken up one morning.

[65] It's like four in the morning.

[66] and I'm hearing screams the type of screams I've not heard before where I'm like I'm like that's a murder that's what a murder sounds like right you know like oh my god help me help me shit oh wow yeah and so I have a baseball bat in my room which I just grabbed sure to protect your family yeah yeah yeah I also have three shotguns but I grab the baseball of course and I'm like I'm going out there and my my wife's like hang on a second don't be crazy you don't know what it is you know I'm like all right you're right I mean I wouldn't even know what direction to run I'm just run around the day run in my pajamas with a baseball bat because someone screaming help me that doesn't make sense so then we kept listening to the fight and it became clear the fighting went from someone's being murdered to someone has been disgraced where all of a sudden it was like and all that over your nails I'm like oh wow something to do with a fingernail to speak sure sure and then the million of those and then we kind of catch a peek of them from our window So it was a pimp and ho situation.

[67] Oh, it was.

[68] Yeah, up in the hill.

[69] What the fuck were they doing up in the hills?

[70] I don't know.

[71] Some expensive John, I think.

[72] Oh, you think leaving the house.

[73] Leaving the house.

[74] And there was a big dispute.

[75] At one point, you know those little neighborhood patrol cars that are all around here?

[76] You have the little yellow numbers?

[77] Yeah, caught up to them.

[78] I was having a conversation.

[79] And you could hear the guy say, what's your name?

[80] And the woman says, Carla.

[81] And then the pimp says, not really, though.

[82] And then I think she had to kind of switch gears And be like, all right, it's, it's Frederick.

[83] Something like that.

[84] You know, I mean, this is maybe too obvious of a question, but why is it, does that dynamic just seem so rife for conflict?

[85] The pimp hooker relationship, like, that's exactly, it's going exactly how I'd expect it to go.

[86] Yeah, I think any time someone is doing sexual acts against their will.

[87] Yeah, it seems pretty easy to see.

[88] There's some inherent conflict in that job arrangement.

[89] You're right.

[90] But also, you know, if you just transplant the whole thing onto our career, like, let's say you and McElhenney, I'm pronouncing his name correctly because he corrected me. Did he correct you?

[91] He did.

[92] I've been saying McElhenny.

[93] Like I'm adding, like, it's.

[94] I listened to your guys's, oh, okay.

[95] Okay, right.

[96] And he was gracious enough to say, like, I love you and I appreciate the mentions.

[97] But you got, it's Mac.

[98] And he explained the difference between Mac, Mac, Mac.

[99] A Mick and a Mac.

[100] Yeah, which I had no, I was completely oblivious to all this.

[101] He gets pretty pissed off, too, because nobody can pronounce.

[102] and or spell his name.

[103] And now it's all of our faults.

[104] Yeah.

[105] But good for him, you know, he wants me to say it right.

[106] So McElheny, anyways.

[107] Wait, what's the difference between Mac and Mick?

[108] Okay.

[109] So, so, so, I'm sure he's told me, but I deleted all those files.

[110] You know, it's worth five seconds for me to look it up.

[111] Because it's, again, it's a real education.

[112] While you're looking at up, all sidebar into his wife, Caitlin, did you have to tell you the time about at Starbucks where, you know, they put your name on the cup?

[113] Yeah.

[114] And she got back the cup and said, catfish?

[115] No. And it was like, how do you, how do you translate Caitlin to catfish?

[116] So that's her nickname on set sometimes we call it Catfish.

[117] Okay, here we go.

[118] I forgot to tell you that I'm very flattered by your mentioning of me on the show from time to time, but you're pronouncing my name wrong.

[119] I thought of emailing Monica for her to cover it on the fact check, but this was easier.

[120] It's pronounced McElhenny.

[121] Not Mickleheny.

[122] It's a tricky one, but for future reference, when dealing with a Scottish or Irish person, MC followed by a vowel is Mac.

[123] MC followed by a consonant is Mick, like McDonald's versus John McEnroe.

[124] Oh, cool.

[125] I mean, that was a real breakthrough for me. No one has explained that to me. Do you know this about the consonant?

[126] You must have from working with him for so long.

[127] No, and I'm staring right at you and you're talking and I'm already dropping all that information because it has very little practical use in my life.

[128] By the way, though, McElhenney is one of those things that I know how to spell, but sometimes with Glenn I'll just be like wait is it one N or is it two end?

[129] Right.

[130] But I think because Rob gets so hot about it I got it down.

[131] Yeah, you had to out of fear of retaliation.

[132] Yeah, fair enough.

[133] But you're right, Glenn, what the fuck is a second end doing on there?

[134] It did its job.

[135] Every time I write it, it feels wrong.

[136] It does.

[137] It can't be right.

[138] I already wrote N. Are you supposed to say it for a while longer?

[139] Like Glenn.

[140] Maybe his name is really Glenn.

[141] You know?

[142] Blen.

[143] Anyways, back to the, my hooker analogy is, you and McElhenny, you put some energy into a project, the ratings come out, it's a big rating, and you celebrate.

[144] It's generally good, right?

[145] It doesn't lead to a fight over one's nails.

[146] So if the proposed businesses go to a house, perform a sexual act, get paid and split, I feel like they should be in a celebratory phase.

[147] The ugly works over.

[148] The backbreaking works over.

[149] And now they got the money and you'd think the spirits would be high.

[150] Well, like with Rob and I, like with Sonny, we're splitting our money kind of evenly.

[151] I'm not quite sure that the pimp and prostitute.

[152] You know, I think there's some tension there.

[153] And are you guys hurting each other violently and physically?

[154] No. Okay, yeah.

[155] So that's one big difference.

[156] You don't call Rob Daddy.

[157] Is he the pimp?

[158] I think I'm the pimp.

[159] Okay, you're the pimp.

[160] Again, I just know him longer.

[161] And one of the things I admire about him is his rigid core.

[162] He knows his direction.

[163] And he's kind of impervious to outside.

[164] input.

[165] I literally admire this about it.

[166] Like, if someone makes a bad joke in front of him, he has no compulsion to fake laugh.

[167] I brought this up to him the other day, because it's the thing I hate about myself the most, is that I realize that 50 % of my conversations I have with people, every word I'm saying is just so that they feel okay.

[168] Uh -huh.

[169] Uh -huh.

[170] I just, I see that they're coming in, and they're coming at me with some awkward humor, and I'm just trying to land out those planes for them.

[171] And then, and then.

[172] Oh, I'm those planes for them.

[173] You know, and then because, I'm trying to do that.

[174] I'm now saying stupid shit and trying to dig my way out of a hole and he does not care.

[175] He can just take it in and...

[176] Again, it's the confidence I admire.

[177] That person's upset that I didn't laugh at their bad joke.

[178] You know, that's for them to evaluate.

[179] It's nothing about me. It seems a very like a healthy position.

[180] I have benefited more than anyone else, I think, in this town from the way that guy thinks and his singular drive about stuff.

[181] And I mean, thank God.

[182] He was like, like we have to make the show and we have to keep making it and you know i i kind of was always like yeah we could do this could do that but he just was so driven about stuff well that would make him the pimp in this scenario like you're yeah you're evaluating maybe quitting or retiring and he's like no no no we're going to keep this show on the road yeah yeah yeah but i get so much work without him no problem yeah i feel like he needs me so i don't know yeah yeah yeah yeah No, no, but your point is well taken.

[183] You guys are divvying up that money three ways or however you do it.

[184] And the pimp is definitely getting like 99 % of that and paying for some expenses.

[185] But again, why is he mad?

[186] Why is he mad?

[187] It sounds like in this thing you observed, he was hot under the collar about the nails.

[188] I think the prostitute was mad.

[189] Oh, she was mad.

[190] Her nails got broken or whatever it was.

[191] And she was fucking pissed off.

[192] Sure.

[193] Look, I don't know.

[194] Someone might have actually been getting hurt.

[195] It's hard to know.

[196] Yeah.

[197] But it seemed like a terrifying thing that turned benign.

[198] So I had a very similar thing happened.

[199] I lived in this one -bedroom apartment for 10 years in Santa Monica early on.

[200] And I lived in this apartment.

[201] There was maybe 13 other apartments.

[202] And I knew one of the gales, one stairwell over.

[203] I knew her kind of well.

[204] And then I heard screaming.

[205] Same thing.

[206] Blood curdling screaming.

[207] It's like 6 p .m. at night.

[208] I'm in there with my girlfriend.

[209] And I hear her say, no, no, please, no. And I just hear, you're a fucking cunt.

[210] And then I hear furniture smack.

[211] So I'm thinking, hmm, she might be getting killed.

[212] So I left.

[213] I ran up the stairwell and I'm yelling as I go up.

[214] I'm calling the cops.

[215] Like I'm trying to give a lot of warning, like back off, whatever's going on.

[216] And I get to the top of the stairwell and I knock at the door and she opens the door.

[217] And right as I see her, I see this guy running at me. And he is big.

[218] And he looks like an English soccer hooligan, like shaved head, two, 20, 6 -2, and he's in a full sprint at me. He comes into the landing.

[219] We kind of lock up.

[220] He throws me into this fire extinguisher thing.

[221] The glass breaks, and all I'm thinking the whole time is, oh, my God, we're going to tumble down the stairway.

[222] You know, we're getting each other in holds, and we're going to fall down the stairway.

[223] And then in that time, she shut the door and locked it.

[224] And now I'm like, my job's over.

[225] So I'm trying to get extracted from this.

[226] I break free.

[227] I run down the steps, and he's just standing at the top steps, and he starts knocking knocking on the door, blah, blah, blah.

[228] I'm like, dude, the cops are on their way, blah, blah, walk back to my stairwell, and he now walks down, and then he crosses in, my girlfriend Breeze on the phone with the police, and as he walks by, he goes, you wouldn't understand, she's a fulkin count, and then just walked off into the streets.

[229] It was a, I call it a blind date with violence.

[230] Like, I just knocked on the door, dabble.

[231] God knows what's on the other side.

[232] You know, you're lucky he didn't get shot, though.

[233] It's funny, not to go too much into the, the right.

[234] Rob stuff, but I was listening to you guys' podcasting talking so much about that attraction to violence, really.

[235] Yes, masculinity and violence and defining yourself that way.

[236] Yeah, it's a great conversation.

[237] But, you know, I had a friend of mine's father in Rhode Island.

[238] It's a carpenter, the Portuguese guys, tough as nails, greatest guy on the planet.

[239] We all looked up to him.

[240] Scary dad, though.

[241] You know the kind of dad that was a little bit scary?

[242] Sure.

[243] And we had a run -in with some kids once where basically like a windshield of a car got smash and a BB gun got pulled on somebody and there was a whole sort of fiasco and the parents got involved and what age I was probably 16 which means my buddies were 15 which means the youngest guy in the car was probably 14 or 13 okay but my buddy's dad put it really great you know all the parents had talks with us about you can't be doing this can't be doing that and I had to pay for the windshield because it was my dad's car which cost me 499 40 it was painting houses all summer That's a big hit at 16, 500 bucks.

[244] Oh, yeah.

[245] Oh, 1988 on our cord.

[246] But Pete's pettit pulls us in the room and just looks at us and he goes, you don't pull a BB gun on a guy, because he could have a real fucking gun.

[247] And he just screaming us.

[248] But then it kind of hit me from then on.

[249] I was like, right, what fucking business do I think I have getting in any kind of scuffle with anybody?

[250] Not that I should anyway, because I'm like three feet tall.

[251] But like, what a guy's got a gun?

[252] And it's completely crazy.

[253] You're 100 % right and Rob and I are 100 % wrong.

[254] The utopia that I would dream of has no one in it swinging at anyone.

[255] So I just recognize it's completely a guerrilla behavior.

[256] It's fucking stupid.

[257] No way to handle anything.

[258] Yeah.

[259] And also, to your point, this really occurred to us watching Wild Wild Country.

[260] Did you see that documentary about the Rajneeshis in Oregon?

[261] So it starts out so simple.

[262] simple they just want to go like whatever dance and frolic naked and then just the way that the battle escalates with the town and then it gets to a county level and then it gets to a state level and now there's a fucking hotel being bombed and there's a food court being poisoned and i was just watching that going like oh right in life you kind of have a choice to either escalate or de -escalate there's really no neutral position to take on it it's like either you can actively kind of try to deflate everything or you can go up ratchet it up and then they'll ratchet it it up and it's kind of endless.

[263] So I see the futility in it for sure.

[264] But even if you're trying to deflate something, like in the case where you hear the screaming and you go upstairs, like this guy could be like oh, I'm going to shoot my wife.

[265] I just shot her.

[266] Great.

[267] Now she's dead.

[268] And this guy opens the door.

[269] Well, now I got a witness.

[270] I got to shoot this guy too.

[271] That's right.

[272] Now, I will say if I had heard a gunshot, I probably would have turned around and told Bree nothing's going on.

[273] I'm calling the police.

[274] I'm calling them from a distance.

[275] I'm not calling them.

[276] I'm in my car driving away.

[277] Okay, so you just mentioned Rhode Island.

[278] You were born in the Bronx.

[279] I was.

[280] And what age did you guys relocate to Rhode Island?

[281] Oh, super young.

[282] I think I was too.

[283] So you're a Rhode Islander or whatever you call it.

[284] Why is it R -H -O -D -E -S and not R -O -A -D?

[285] Is it an English thing?

[286] Is it like Rhodes Scholar?

[287] Is it connected to that?

[288] Why is it Rhode Island, but it's...

[289] It's something I should absolutely know.

[290] And most certainly was taught.

[291] But, you know, I'm...

[292] I thought about this, too, listen to your podcast.

[293] I'm like, man, I think I'm going to be the worst guest ever because I can't remember anything.

[294] I don't remember a thing.

[295] My wife was one of our best guests, and she does not remember yesterday.

[296] We have taken full vacations for 10 days.

[297] She doesn't know we've been to that state.

[298] All the time.

[299] You do.

[300] Living in the now, man. Good for you.

[301] I think it's a good way to be.

[302] You certainly have an aura of happiness that I don't know if the whole thing's a facade, but you've always impressed me. Yeah, I don't know.

[303] I think I, look, I wouldn't say I'm overly happy.

[304] we're psychotically happy.

[305] Maniacly happy.

[306] No, and I can get depressed or jealous or anything like anyone else.

[307] But I think maybe my sort of going state is...

[308] Is pretty chill?

[309] One of acceptance, I think.

[310] Oh, that's great.

[311] I think when you grow up super tiny and covered in freckles and you're like, I can either fight against this or I could just embrace it.

[312] I don't know.

[313] You'd probably have to ask Robert Glenn, who see me on a daily basis.

[314] And they'd be like, no, he's the most miserable son of it.

[315] Yeah.

[316] You ever met.

[317] We certainly all know our friends better than we know ourselves, right?

[318] So mom was a piano teacher.

[319] Yep.

[320] Yes.

[321] Mary?

[322] Yeah.

[323] She was like a kindergarten through eighth grade school music teacher.

[324] Okay.

[325] And dad was a professor in music history.

[326] Yeah.

[327] Yes?

[328] Yeah.

[329] So music has got to be paramount in the house.

[330] Did they stay married?

[331] Yeah.

[332] Oh, they did?

[333] Yeah.

[334] Okay.

[335] So you grew up in a nuclear family, both of them musicians or obsessed with music.

[336] Yep.

[337] And your sister who's older.

[338] Yes.

[339] Did she play music?

[340] She did.

[341] Actually, all three of them have their PhDs in music college.

[342] Oh, you're kidding.

[343] So, yeah.

[344] My parents met in grad school at Columbia, where they were getting their doctorates in music.

[345] Wow.

[346] So super kind of whatever word you guys were looking at before, edgophiles or whatever.

[347] Oh, yeah, unifile.

[348] Yeah, unifiles.

[349] We include Columbia in the unifiles.

[350] Sure.

[351] Oh, yeah.

[352] Good school.

[353] And then my sister got her degree as well to you.

[354] But, yeah, they're all big, smart music family.

[355] And I just didn't want to go into it because I was like, You guys, we have no money.

[356] Oh, uh -huh.

[357] Like, what life is this?

[358] Right, right.

[359] You know, I want, I want the sneakers my buddies have.

[360] Yeah.

[361] I can listen to the same albums in a nicer house.

[362] Yeah.

[363] It wasn't really, it was more like they know everything about Beethoven and, and classical stuff.

[364] That kind of stuff.

[365] Yeah, what was being played in the household?

[366] Nothing.

[367] Nothing.

[368] We didn't even have a car radio.

[369] So when they bought that on a chord that I later smashed the winches, they opted for no radio.

[370] So the radio delete option.

[371] Yeah.

[372] They saved $190 .19.

[373] So there was a little, like, plastic plate there that said Honda.

[374] The only reason this makes sense to me is that I'm going to guess that in your household, you're a comedian, you're by trade, you're a comedian.

[375] I doubt you watch much comedy on TV.

[376] No, it's true.

[377] I don't watch a ton of comedy.

[378] Yeah, because you make it.

[379] Yeah, because you make it.

[380] Yeah.

[381] If you make sausage, you probably don't eat a ton of sausage, maybe.

[382] No, I don't.

[383] Do you guys don't really eat?

[384] No, very little.

[385] In fact, it has to be more of a serialized emotional story.

[386] Sure.

[387] Package as a comedy.

[388] Master of None.

[389] I love that.

[390] Watch that.

[391] Flea Bag.

[392] Have you watched Flea Bag?

[393] No, my wife watched it and she, I got to watch it.

[394] What happens is, if you have this with Kristen, if your wife goes off and watches something without you, then I'm like, well, when am I supposed to watch?

[395] Totally.

[396] We watch stuff together.

[397] Yeah, you get an hour and a half a night together, right, to maintain this whole thing.

[398] I'll tell you what I did watch and was blown away by was Penn 15.

[399] We haven't watched.

[400] I have a lot.

[401] I haven't watched.

[402] I have a lot.

[403] watch that yet, but I would really like to.

[404] I heard it's unbelievable.

[405] I was blown away by it and I kind of went in like all things I go into a little bit like I don't know what is this kind of a little cynical.

[406] A little cynical and and then you know you're watching it for the first 10 minutes and the girls are playing.

[407] They're older and you're like okay that's sort of like a gimmick.

[408] The gimmick wears off immediately and then you're completely caught up in their lives and it's both hysterical but then it's I don't know why I'm here plugging pen.

[409] No I like you should.

[410] Yeah.

[411] I wrote them both.

[412] like on Instagram to be like this and I never do that oh you don't I never have done that I probably should but I never do just be like this is that you guys well done yeah and did they respond they did and I felt like a junior high school kid myself having said like passed a note to a girl like what did they do no I love that I've had so many good experiences doing that I think I'm gonna start doing I almost every time I like something I try to like say something publicly about it and then I do always try to send it to the people who made it and then I'd say Half the time they've responded in kind.

[413] That's great.

[414] Yeah, it's a real, I like it.

[415] But the one person who did that to me, and, you know, now you don't want to say his name out loud in public, though, but was Louis C .K. Yeah, he sent me a really nice email after watching Pacific Rim, I think.

[416] Oh, really?

[417] Yeah, just like the nicest email.

[418] It's not asking for anything.

[419] Yeah.

[420] I don't know if his pants were out when he was talking about.

[421] How could you know?

[422] Okay, but back to Rhode Island.

[423] So you had to play, right?

[424] You learned to play violin at three?

[425] No, no, no. That's a bullshit.

[426] That's bullshit.

[427] Okay.

[428] I mean, I did have lessons.

[429] I think at three.

[430] I think at three or four, they put a violin in my hand, and then they were like, nope, that's not going to work.

[431] I think they made a couple ambitious moves, like trying to start me early on that.

[432] I started school pretty young, so I ended up repeating the second grade.

[433] Because you have an early birthday or something or a late birthday?

[434] I have a February birthday.

[435] So I'm not even like.

[436] Yeah, I'm not even on the - You should have been the oldest kid in your class.

[437] Exactly.

[438] You should be in the NHL.

[439] Yeah.

[440] Yeah, it was like three in kindergarten or seven, four in kindergarten, five in first grade.

[441] So I repeated the second grade, which I think I had a psychological traumatic effect on me. Did it for real?

[442] I think so.

[443] Yeah, well, because you're humiliating in front of your peers, right?

[444] Or a little bit of the sense of like, oh, something is wrong with how I'm learning.

[445] And then I think you go into learning a little bit more trepidatiously after that.

[446] You're like, oh, I'm, something's up here.

[447] Yes.

[448] You know.

[449] So you even listen to six minutes of any episode of the podcast you would have heard.

[450] me saying I was dyslexic and didn't learn to read till fifth grade I still have a chip on my shoulder about it yeah and so do I and it's funny because I listen to the podcast I'm like you're incredibly smart you know but well thank you but Einstein could come up from the grave and go you're fine you're smart stop proving it to everyone and I still would be like no I have the same problem and I think it's having you know two parents who are so highly educated and you know I think I did struggle in school a little bit at times they were at very young age we're constantly testing me also for dyslexia and stuff but sadly uh they were coming up negative they're like no this kid is just lazy ah we got the we got the the lab results back and it came back positive for laziness yeah this kid there's nothing wrong with him he just really is sort of anti -learning I think it was just a big daydreamer and still am and that's my probably my head in the clouds always Well, and then this could be a chip on yourself.

[451] It's compounded by the career you've staked out for yourself, like me as well.

[452] I have also specialized in playing dipshits.

[453] Yeah, well, I feel comfortable there because I think that's the psychological thing of like, well, and I've also played smart characters.

[454] But I do feel very comfortable sort of satirizing it.

[455] Yeah.

[456] Leaning into it.

[457] Also, there's no humiliation and being called out on not actually being dumb, right?

[458] So if you're playing a stupid character and then people say, wait a. second he's pretty smart he's actually writing all this shit you're right you're fine but if you're playing like a scientist and everyone says you know he like 250 on his SATs then there's some humiliation there but i don't know i think i used to feel that way i think i've even seen in real life someone go on a talk show to promote a movie where they're basically playing a genius and quickly into the talk show you're like oh this this is this person's not a genius but they did play one convincing them you're right they're an extra good actor it does but you're right there's a level of humiliation when you've portrayed yourself as a genius.

[459] Well, also, yeah, this business is crazy, and we're all guilty of it.

[460] Don't you think, to some degree, like, if you think of Leonard Nimoy or someone, you're like, well, he's a super smart guy.

[461] Oh, 100%.

[462] I don't know, is he?

[463] I mean, probably, but probably not.

[464] He's just an actor.

[465] I'm sure you've met many of your idols at this point.

[466] Yeah, some.

[467] And I would just have to say, if I had to say, the majority or the average was that they were not at all what I was expecting.

[468] Really, you think?

[469] I think very few people have delivered for me. I've met so many of my comedic heroes, and they are so depressed and dark and not fun and miserable, and they're on top of the world.

[470] Yeah, you know, a comedian's, that's true.

[471] I never really wanted to be a comedian either.

[472] You didn't?

[473] No, it's a dark group.

[474] Well, that kind of became obvious to me when I looked at what you did, which is interesting, because I would not, when I think of you, I would not go like, oh, I bet he did Summerstock or whatever the thing is in Massachusetts.

[475] What is it called?

[476] Yeah, the Williamstown theory.

[477] Yeah, that's a pretty kind of, not to be like, say, hoity -to -y, but it's a fan, it's kind of like an elevated, you know.

[478] Yeah, well, that's how I got my foot in the door was getting into there and then, you know, you would audition, I guess, against kids who are in Julia Art and Yale and, you know, sort of fancy actor kids.

[479] And fortunately, guys like myself and Jimmy Simpson kept getting in getting these slots who didn't have these sort of Ivy League acting backgrounds.

[480] But the festival took itself so seriously that we, by proxy, took ourselves seriously.

[481] I'm going to be an actor.

[482] But at the same time, I was like, but please give me a commercial slinging cereal.

[483] Like, I'll take anything.

[484] I couldn't get arrested in comedy.

[485] And I remember auditioning for, I think it was the movie Euro Trip.

[486] Do you remember Euro Trip?

[487] Yes, absolutely.

[488] I remember the feedback in the room was, he's really interesting, but comedy's just not going to be his thing.

[489] Oh, really?

[490] Yeah.

[491] But do you wonder now, like at that time, you probably took that as the letter of the god.

[492] Like, that came from Todd Phillips' mouth.

[493] No, I knew.

[494] But now that you've been behind the curtain, don't you think that went through a few rounds of telephone?

[495] Yeah, no, I think it was probably a junior casting assistant who was just like, you know, I never even made it into the room with Todd Philip.

[496] Okay, okay, okay, right.

[497] You know, I barely got out of the hallway.

[498] Right, right.

[499] So when you were not going to go into music, although I'm sure you would have been supported strongly if you had pursued that.

[500] But you do play instruments, right?

[501] You play many instruments.

[502] Well, there was a time, I think around 18, 19 years.

[503] old.

[504] I was trying to make the choice of like, do I like try to like write albums and, you know, do like the Bob Dylan thing?

[505] Or do I go into acting?

[506] And I just have much more fun with acting.

[507] And I always thought, well, I can always just play music as a hobby.

[508] But, you know, it's hard to play in movies as a hobby.

[509] Yeah, you can't do as a hobby.

[510] But I didn't, I don't know that I knew exactly what I wanted to do until I got to Williamstown, which was when I was starting to really think, okay, acting could be fun.

[511] And then seeing all the.

[512] the people there that weren't famous like there were a lot of great famous both broadway and Hollywood actors that came through but there were a lot of guys who are just sort of working equity actors and i thought oh this guy's making a living doing this yeah he's not that good right right yeah that's by the way it's counterintuitive but one of the most helpful things you can see is someone succeeding at the thing you want to do that's not good at the thing oh i find that way more empowering absolutely than watching Leonardo decaprio at 12 being what's eating and Gilbert, great.

[513] I'm like, well, I can't do that.

[514] Yeah, that shuts you down because you're like, I'm also 12, and he's way ahead.

[515] And there's no catching up.

[516] No, ever.

[517] And my face is never going to get there, too.

[518] No. Like, you know what?

[519] Like, no matter what happens, the genetics are not on myself.

[520] No one's ever going to look at either of us and go, is that a beautiful woman or a beautiful man?

[521] I don't know.

[522] Let's get closer.

[523] Yeah.

[524] Yeah.

[525] Yeah.

[526] I mean, do you feel.

[527] funny too going back to the thing with you or rob and like working out i was given such grief for getting super ripped on sunny because i was like look i'm off for it i love how you do these transitions but there's nothing funny about a super ripped guy it's just not that funny yeah and we've obviously you know that's that's a lazy approach to it we found a way to make it funny but he was just so much funnier when he put on the 60 pounds he was just hilarious and it's not because fat is funny or it's because the audience can relate to your shortcomings.

[528] Yes.

[529] So I feel like there's such a danger and I exercise, I go to gym, but there's such a danger in getting super ripped if you want to be a funny guy.

[530] Well, I've been warned by many of the greats.

[531] You can't be in good shape like that.

[532] Like I've been told explicitly.

[533] It's bullshit though.

[534] Just do what you want to do in your life.

[535] I thought exactly.

[536] And then at a certain point you're just like, I like getting, I like being in shape.

[537] I like working out.

[538] And And whatever.

[539] Maybe that won't fit into some box, but.

[540] Right.

[541] Or maybe we'll relook at roles like, hey, you know what?

[542] Guys who don't look like supermodels can also be in good shape and we should represent them in film.

[543] You know, like maybe we will grow up to it.

[544] But I think it has more to do with how the audience feels, which is that they want to, they want to relate to you as if they know you, as if you're one of them.

[545] And most people don't have the time to be spending the three hours in gym every day.

[546] With a trainer and a nutritionist and all this stuff.

[547] Yeah.

[548] To have these bodies that look ridiculous.

[549] They're preposterous.

[550] No one can have them.

[551] Yeah.

[552] But for me, a lot of it's totally mental.

[553] But also like Rob, I think, and he admitted this, which I admired, was he's like, at a certain point, he didn't know if he was in on the joke anymore.

[554] Yeah, yeah.

[555] Which I have definitely gotten.

[556] Right.

[557] In my mind, at first, it was going to be really funny because this guy's not, doesn't, it shouldn't be a model, but he's got the body, blah.

[558] And then at certain point, I'm just so dedicated to getting in that shape.

[559] That's all I'm thinking about.

[560] I don't really care about anything else.

[561] and I'm no longer in on it.

[562] Yeah, that's right.

[563] And really the point, the point of doing it was how the season ended, you know, which was that he had gone through a sort of physical and emotional transition and that he'd come out this, I guess, more well -rounded or whatever version of it is.

[564] And to Rob's credit, when he was pitching me, that dance thing, I was like, okay, we can do it.

[565] And that episode was not working for the longest time.

[566] And even in script form, it was like, you know, it's okay, it's just this thing.

[567] And then you come out and it's fine.

[568] And when we sort of rob and I occasionally will get stuck on something, we'll just lock ourselves in room and kind of not argue like a contentious argument, but kind of argue.

[569] Discourse.

[570] I don't like this.

[571] I'm not, this isn't quite working for me until we find this common ground, which always makes it better.

[572] And when we locked into that episode being about Danny, about Frank having a realization and an understanding for Mac, it just, well, personally, I think that's what made that whole thing work.

[573] Well, I love that episode.

[574] It is so fucking good.

[575] So give a little content.

[576] Yes.

[577] People haven't seen it.

[578] Oh, right, right.

[579] Right.

[580] And now we can say, we couldn't say when Rob was talking about Rob's character who has been closeted the whole show.

[581] Right.

[582] And there's plenty of Easter eggs along the way.

[583] Right.

[584] He decides to finally come out to his dad who's in prison, right?

[585] Mm -hmm.

[586] And so he does this beautiful.

[587] ballet, choreographed ballet dance, shirtless with water getting thrown all over him with an incredible ballerina who's in the scene.

[588] And then, yeah, and then DeVito's coming to accept.

[589] Mostly from DeVito, I remember the same episode where he his face swelled out.

[590] Yeah.

[591] I could not handle how funny that was.

[592] That's what we kind of, we kind of landed.

[593] Like, that's what we were searching for.

[594] That wasn't in the original draft.

[595] And we're like, well, what does it need?

[596] It needs to be funnier, right?

[597] You've got to come up with a thing.

[598] And we thought, okay, what if he smashes his face and he opens this old cut?

[599] And he's trying to constantly plug it up.

[600] And that becomes a metaphor for sort of lacking of acceptance.

[601] Holding in your poison.

[602] Your poison, right?

[603] You're true.

[604] Until you accept it and let it flow out.

[605] And, you know, God bless McClaney, though.

[606] Like, I got to give him credit just for even thinking that the whole dance.

[607] You know, because he sticks these flags in the sand sometimes that I'm like, I don't know, man, but I'll run with you there.

[608] And he doesn't have the full plan, but he drags me along.

[609] And I like to think that I make him better through the process, but he's also making me so much better through the process.

[610] And then when we get to the end of it, we get to look back on it and say, well, that's a special thing.

[611] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[612] We've all been there.

[613] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating.

[614] body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[615] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[616] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[617] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[618] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[619] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[620] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[621] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[622] What's up guys?

[623] It's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[624] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[625] And I don't mean just friends.

[626] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[627] The list goes on.

[628] So follow, watch and listen to Baby.

[629] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[630] And what is the physical, mechanical process of you and Rob writing?

[631] Glenn doesn't write, does he?

[632] It's just you too.

[633] Glenn doesn't write in the way that we write, which is that Rob and I will have the story idea and then we'll work with the writers to break it and then the two of us will work on it and then we'll bring Glenn in once we're done and he'll do a pass all three of us together oh and his insight is always great because he's on the outside of it all yeah and he wasn't always that way but the last like five six years he kind of like stepped out and stepped back in just because i think he'd be the first to tell you like he's not a writer it's not what he right but he actually i think he's a great writer he always has a perspective on it that either rob and i have missed that i always think makes the episodes better.

[634] But usually the process is, you know, let's say we've taken an episode idea and I can only think of like old ones right now.

[635] But, you know, Rob wants to do one thing.

[636] I want to do another.

[637] We kind of take the room and we beat those episodes out.

[638] And then we sometimes assign a writer to go write the draft.

[639] But really what ends up happening is Rob and I usually sit through every draft and on a computer.

[640] On a computer.

[641] Sometimes like this season we threw out a lot of drafts and just started from scratch the two of us said okay what does this need to be right and lock ourselves in a room and who's typing we take turns you do yeah okay yeah and you split the typing okay and you've written in a bunch of other things yeah and did you do you prefer to write with somebody I prefer to write with somebody um only because I get stock on my own right you know also because it's just lonely to write on your yeah it's miserable the the doing is is the life, not the product, you know?

[642] So that, you know, when you're writing with someone, that process is good.

[643] But I like to write with someone for a while and then be left alone to write for myself for a few hours, then come back and write some more.

[644] I don't know, every single one's different.

[645] Right.

[646] Okay.

[647] So really quick, back to, you go to college, and then you got into acting then.

[648] And then did you move to New York?

[649] Is that what you did?

[650] Right when you graduated?

[651] Yeah, one straight there.

[652] And you were on an episode of Law and Order.

[653] I did get on an episode of Law and And wasn't Rob also on an episode of Law and Order?

[654] He was.

[655] I just think it's a weird thing to have in common.

[656] Yeah.

[657] Well, no, no, because everyone was on an episode on.

[658] Oh, really?

[659] When you were in New York, that was like one of the few things.

[660] And you would go in, if you had an agent and you were in your 20s or whatever and you were auditioning in New York City, law and order was just something that always needed like, you know, a guy moving boxes.

[661] They are going to come up nonstop.

[662] Right.

[663] I remember actually going in for commercials, too.

[664] and I remember being in a with the variety and you know the guy who does the Verizon thing?

[665] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[666] Can you hear me now?

[667] Yeah, I remember being with him when he had just got that and he was like, I just got a call that like I just got in this Verizon commercial and it's going to be a big campaign and I remember thinking man, I don't want to do that I had this sort of like mindset of like well I mean I got to do some commercials to make the money but I don't want to be stuck as like the rising guy but I'm sure he doesn't give a shit.

[668] He did great.

[669] on that.

[670] I did a direct TV commercial I think a few years ago.

[671] It was the greatest thing.

[672] I worked for like a week and to be blunt, you know, made as much money as I would have had write and edit and act in 20 episodes of Sunday to do that.

[673] Yes.

[674] But I was a little bit, I still had some holdover feelings from that time.

[675] I was a little bit embarrassed doing it.

[676] Uh -huh.

[677] And at the time I was working with John Malkovich on something.

[678] And I saw him and, you know, he said like, you know, how was your weekend?

[679] And that whole thing.

[680] And I said, I'm pretty good.

[681] I was kind of I slummed it a little bit.

[682] I did a commercial, right?

[683] And he looks at me and he kind of nods.

[684] He goes, hmm.

[685] And so I ask him, I say, you know, have you ever done any commercials?

[686] And he looks at me again.

[687] And he goes, I've done hundreds of them.

[688] You know?

[689] And I told him that.

[690] I like, sold my soul.

[691] And he goes, you don't sell your soul.

[692] You rent it.

[693] All right.

[694] And that I feel like he gave me like a blank.

[695] Because to me that he was like, that's what an actor's actor is.

[696] Steppenwolf the whole thing.

[697] I idolized the guy.

[698] He's the greatest.

[699] So he just gave me a blank check to really pour myself out.

[700] It was great.

[701] I don't know when and how it changed, but it did change.

[702] Now it's total fun.

[703] Well, Brad Pitt was in that Heineken commercial.

[704] I'll never forget that.

[705] I'm like, wow, Brad.

[706] It must have been.

[707] Thank you, Brad.

[708] Thank you, Brad.

[709] You kicked down the doors for those of us who could use the easy money.

[710] We could use easy money.

[711] So you guys, you guys were kind of put on a blind date.

[712] right you were arranged to meet each other you glenn and rob you know what i met rob on an airplane uh we were both being flown out to test for a pilot so it was like a fox pilot i think it was called mather house or matherhouse rule no matherhouse and it was like uh college kids in in college or whatever the plot was i'm trying to get late i would imagine yeah trying to get laid whatever it is yeah and rob and i were both testing for the same role oh Oh, really?

[713] Yeah, I think of, like, the crazy college guy.

[714] And I was like, I was like, I got this, dude.

[715] He ain't got to get it over me. But we just, like, you know, said hi in the plane.

[716] I think he gave me a lift to the audition.

[717] You know, I was such a bum and a mooch.

[718] I was like, hey, man, can you get me a ride?

[719] He, like, oh, nice, man, good.

[720] He might give me a lift over there.

[721] He ran in a car.

[722] Yeah.

[723] But we just hit it off there.

[724] So we became friends on that.

[725] Oh, based off of that.

[726] based off of that.

[727] And then Glenn also, I'd met him, like, in the New York auditioning circuit.

[728] I think Rob knew him first.

[729] And I just, I don't know.

[730] I have a vague memory of meeting him in the lobby of, like, auditioning for Tuck Everlasting or some crazy movie.

[731] Uh -huh.

[732] And, yeah, we just kind of all clicked.

[733] Yeah.

[734] So the model that you guys started with at FX was basically, if I understand it correctly, you guys are going to make this show for $0.

[735] dollars and we're going to pay you zero dollars to be in it but we're going to give you some ownership we're going to give you a lot of ownership of this show yeah which is unconventional at that time that wasn't like what anyone was aiming for per se yeah i mean we didn't get paid anything in the beginning right so when that was happening were you you said you didn't want to go to music because you didn't want to be broke but was money as something that you coveted or aspired to have desperately well i mean sure i got zero to zero to ten i'll give i'll just tell you i'm a I was obsessed with money.

[736] I had to get it.

[737] I wanted it growing up.

[738] No. I mean, no, no. That's not right.

[739] Maybe like threes and fours.

[740] I knew I needed it.

[741] I knew I needed it to survive.

[742] But, man, I was, I was so lucky.

[743] From the time I had an agent after coming out of Williamstown, you know, being seen up there and getting an agent, I worked.

[744] I did commercials.

[745] I was the voice of the independent film channel.

[746] So anytime you heard, like, and I would get these fucking checks from that thing McElheny hated me because he was still waiting tables and he would come to my apartment which by the way was on this street it was yeah I live with Jimmy Simpson the actor that's where we shot the pilot of Sunny I actually was walking down here thinking of a funny story from that place where I one time went into the elevator was such a sketchy thing where the lights always flickering it's like janky elevator and the door the door opens there's a guy in there holding a hacksaw his glasses are like half off because they're missing one of the arms he's breathing heavy he's got a wife beater and like a hairy like ape body and he goes get in and like a lamb to the slaughter step into the elevator and watches the door shut me and just wait for this 300 pound man to just hack me to pieces and instead what he does is he goes I'm the new super of the building.

[747] I'm like, oh, thank God.

[748] And he goes, I've noticed that you're in the Screen Actors Guild.

[749] How did he notice?

[750] He's been reading my, he's been checking my mail.

[751] I'm like, yeah, yeah, in the guild.

[752] And he's like, I got a screenplay for you.

[753] Oh.

[754] It gave me a screenplay, which was unreadable.

[755] I mean, he could barely form a sentence, never mind like a three -act structure.

[756] But anyway, that's a little sidebar, that great building down there.

[757] But I was so fortunate that between the commercials and the independent film channel.

[758] I was making money.

[759] Yeah.

[760] And I was the kind of guy that once, if I had $3 ,000 in the bank, I was like, I am the richest man alive.

[761] Uh -huh.

[762] So I always felt as though...

[763] That's a great disposition.

[764] Yeah, I was never like striving for more.

[765] I just didn't want to lose it.

[766] So I wasn't blowing it on flat screen TVs.

[767] I was like, I have three grand.

[768] I can live on this forever.

[769] Yes.

[770] You know, the stupid thoughts like that.

[771] And then Sarah would come over and he would see my pile of IFC checks on my keyboard.

[772] And you're like, come on, man. Just go to the bank I'm like I gotta walk all the way down the bank I'll get around to me I got plenty of time I got three grand to live off of Yeah so I wasn't driven by money I was driven by wanting to be someone great Make something great make great things Yeah Be someone that someone said You know Oh now that's a great actor That's a great writer That's what drove me Which sadly I think is I just desperately wanted someone to love And approve me like all actors But yeah of course All humans And then later it became money When I actually started to make money, where I was like, oh, no, money is good.

[773] Right.

[774] Also, if you would have knocked on my door and said, I'll buy this whole dream from you for $4 million.

[775] I wouldn't have done it.

[776] At 28, I still hadn't made a dime acting and been trying for 10 years.

[777] I would have been like, yeah, I should probably take that safe money, I think.

[778] No, no way, really?

[779] Yeah, I don't know.

[780] I feel like maybe I would have, yeah.

[781] See, I think if someone had said, you'll be able to afford like a modest house and a decent living, but people will love your work everywhere.

[782] That would have.

[783] I would have taken that, too.

[784] But I had zero.

[785] That's a pretty good deal.

[786] Yeah, that's a really good deal.

[787] So everything's set.

[788] You'll never have to worry about anything and everyone will love you.

[789] Oh, okay.

[790] Yeah, I'm in.

[791] Do you feel like looking back on your career, that mentality led you to do some jobs you didn't wish you didn't do?

[792] I've done things for free because I thought they were going to be great and they were fucking terrible.

[793] Sure.

[794] And I've done things for money that turned out to be great.

[795] So I actually don't think there's a whole lot to glean from it for me. I had a funny year last year where I did a few things like that, right?

[796] Where I did the commercial just for money.

[797] And it turned out to be fine.

[798] It was fun.

[799] I actually really loved the director on it.

[800] It was love the guy.

[801] And it was quick and easy.

[802] I did a sort of more commercial movie that was, I wasn't thrilled with the script, but I was like, I'll just do this.

[803] I did the sequel to the Pacific.

[804] Which the first one was Guillermo del Toro.

[805] That's why I wanted to be in it.

[806] The second one, he wasn't in it.

[807] And I thought, well, that's the whole thing.

[808] But I was like, I still love the character.

[809] And I like the story.

[810] Also, you've already done it once.

[811] And I did it once.

[812] And I was like, why not?

[813] And it was a great experience.

[814] I was in Australia with my family.

[815] And it was a great experience.

[816] And then I did Louis Zike's movie, which came out during all his sort of heat.

[817] And that was the one where I was like, oh, finally, like the awardsee crowd people are calling me up.

[818] I'm getting the work with John Malcovich and Edie Falco and Louis C .K., who I really admired.

[819] And, you know, obviously that one turned out to be a disaster, not for me personally, but the movie itself.

[820] It just did it never come out?

[821] I think they just, they buried it, you know.

[822] Because I'd done Louis' movie, I got to know Malcovich pretty well and Edie Falco.

[823] And I'd asked them both if they would do this movie that I directed and wrote.

[824] And getting them in the movie, I think, really helped me secure the rest of the cast because who does it?

[825] want to be in the movie that Malkovich is...

[826] I don't need to read your script.

[827] You just call me and you're like, so who's in, these are the folks in.

[828] And I'm like, yeah, great.

[829] And so weirdly, you know, even...

[830] At all.

[831] Louis' movie was a good experience for me. I mean, removing myself from all, everything that went on with him.

[832] Yeah.

[833] It was still a good experience for me. So I learned...

[834] I don't know.

[835] What do I learn?

[836] Exactly.

[837] I don't know what to learn.

[838] Well, what I've learned is...

[839] Can someone just tell me what I need to learn and what I need to know?

[840] Write it down on a little piece of paper.

[841] Here's what I've deduced finally is the thing.

[842] things that I hope that succeeded, when they succeeded, the thing I thought that was coming next never came.

[843] And then the things they didn't want to do led to stuff that I ended up loved doing.

[844] So what I've learned is that I have no barometer of what's good or bad for me to do.

[845] I think there's a, there's like a certain, I don't know if it's a pressure, something that's attributed to us as performers, as if we have some sort of crystal ball to know how this piece of paper is going to, you know, turn out how it's going to be received in the world, whether or not anyone involved has a personal scandal in their life that's like, how on earth are any of us supposed to...

[846] What 30 -second commercial were they made?

[847] Exactly.

[848] But the reality is we really just have one job to do, which is to do our work as best we can, as responsible as we can, and the rest of it is completely out of control.

[849] But it's very hard emotionally and psychologically because it's your name, it's your face.

[850] You know, you're being out there in the world and someone's saying...

[851] Well, your ego.

[852] Yeah, like, Dak Sheber.

[853] Charlie Day is the worst actor.

[854] You know, like you read that and you're like, oh, is it true?

[855] Like, you can't remove yourself unless you're psychotic from a statement like that.

[856] So it's difficult, but there's no way for us that we really, if we were really good, we would just be like, I just show up, I do the thing.

[857] Then I go and I do another thing.

[858] Doing the thing is the experience.

[859] And then whatever you guys make of it, that's up to you.

[860] Oh, you're doing it with, I think, most importantly.

[861] Like, who am I working with?

[862] Like, what is that collaboration going to be?

[863] Yes.

[864] And am I going to learn and grow from this?

[865] I don't care where it goes or what it does because I have no control of it.

[866] Right.

[867] And again, I would argue on your deathbed, you're not going to be tallying up opening weekends.

[868] You're going to be thinking about the three months you made the movie, regardless of the outcome.

[869] You won't even reflect on that.

[870] I think one of the things that I'm most proud of the work that I've done were these 150 stupid home movies I made with Jimmy Simpson in that apartment down there.

[871] And in New York City when we were roommates, we would just run around.

[872] this, he had a VHS camera, and then after he did the movie, Loser with Amy Heckling, he had enough money to buy a little digital camera.

[873] And we would shoot these dumbass little things pre -Utube, so we didn't put them anywhere.

[874] We weren't trying to get ahead with them.

[875] Right.

[876] We were trying to make each other laugh, and we were trying to learn sort of how we performed on camera.

[877] So you saw what your face did, and in the tragic case of my voice, what my voice did.

[878] You learned, okay, this is what I look like, this is what I sound like, this is what works, but it doesn't work.

[879] But I had so much fun.

[880] And like that was probably 2000, you know, running around with that guy and my friends making that stuff.

[881] It's why Robin Glenn came to me to say, hey, let's make.

[882] It's always sunny because you make stuff.

[883] Let's make stuff together.

[884] Yeah.

[885] It's kind of the purest thing.

[886] And then you wish you could make your feature films that same way with that level of control.

[887] Yeah.

[888] In a bubble.

[889] You know, you don't have to get the rights to any of the music.

[890] Oh, that's the killer part.

[891] Yeah, that's awful.

[892] So back to Sunny really quick.

[893] So you go into it, I can't imagine your expectations were crazy high financially.

[894] You were just doing it because you really wanted to make stuff.

[895] I just wanted an opportunity to really just to act.

[896] When they, FX said to us that you guys are going to run it, you're going to write it.

[897] I mean, I remember Rob writing, oh, he was writing, I think, the episode where we get high on crack.

[898] Uh -huh.

[899] And I was taking the episode where we go to abortion rally to pick up girls.

[900] And I wrote my version of that script on a yellow legal pad at the Astrodiner in Silver Lake.

[901] So like Dennis says this and then under that line and then later brought it to Rob where we typed it up.

[902] I didn't even own a computer until season two.

[903] Really?

[904] Yeah.

[905] You were to always write by hand.

[906] I wasn't a really aspiring writer at all.

[907] at all.

[908] You know, I was just, I thought I was going to be, you know, Dustin Hoffman or somebody.

[909] I was like, I'm going to be this great actor.

[910] Right.

[911] And so, and I, that's what I was working towards.

[912] Did it take you a while to, to, to, to, own the lane you were in?

[913] Like, to go, okay, I'm now comfortable doing this and I, I'm fine that I didn't do that.

[914] Or is that still nag at you?

[915] No, because I don't think I really see the difference.

[916] You know, like, I mean, I think there is probably a big difference between, it's always sending Philadelphia and the graduate, but.

[917] Not to me, you know?

[918] To me, we are making the graduate over and over and over again.

[919] Or we are making the great next work that will be passed down and passed around.

[920] And I think that's just naivete.

[921] I think I just was just happy to work.

[922] Right.

[923] And then, you know, the horrible bosses, I was thrilled to be in it.

[924] So it was just a great opportunity.

[925] Although, you know what, I almost passed on that movie, which would have been psychotic.

[926] Why?

[927] Because Ben Stiller was producing movie.

[928] called like Gone in 30 seconds or something that Jesse Eisenberg did.

[929] Right.

[930] And I remember I went in and I read with Aziz a couple times because he was playing the other role and Ruben Fleischer was directing it and I thought it was a great script.

[931] And I really wanted that.

[932] I mean, so I was very fortunate that I didn't get that part and that I, you know, because Jesse was fine.

[933] He had a movie career.

[934] I needed one.

[935] Yeah.

[936] And Gone in 30 seconds kind of came and went.

[937] But Horrible Boss was it.

[938] So that was just dumb luck that I said, okay, I didn't get this.

[939] I'll go to that.

[940] Yeah.

[941] So this will be anti -climaticus.

[942] You already told me you're not obsessed with money.

[943] But I do just want to know the moment where it occurred to you.

[944] At some point, FX has got to tell you like, so guys, that this show has actually generated a bunch of money and now you're going to get a big check.

[945] Yeah.

[946] Do you remember that moment?

[947] Was it hard to comprehend?

[948] Yeah.

[949] I mean, I want to be clear.

[950] I like money.

[951] Yeah.

[952] I'm not, I'm not some great, too cool for school guy.

[953] I, uh, I really like money.

[954] I just wasn't worrying about it like in my 20s because I had, you know, enough in the bank that I was like, hey, I can do commercials forever, whatever.

[955] But no, I, Robin Glenn and I were very focused on how to get the money from FX that we felt we were worth.

[956] So we were sort of aggressive in, you know, sort of how we were building our back end and how we were trying to get them to actually pay us.

[957] Yeah, yeah.

[958] You were savvy.

[959] We were savvy, although I still think all three of us still probably feel like, you know.

[960] You left some on the table.

[961] Big time.

[962] Yeah.

[963] Like, don't you have a feeling like if FX finance says, okay, we'll pay you $5, that means they had $25 that they were going to pay you?

[964] Yeah, probably.

[965] You know, so there's, I think you can't let that go.

[966] I mean, we had a pretty crappy meeting with our agent at one point where this was deep into the show.

[967] Season 6, season 7, where he was breaking down some numbers for us.

[968] And he looked at three of us in the eyes and he said, guys, in great success, if we keep this going, you could each walk away having made $1 million.

[969] And I know, like, to a lot of people at home, that sounds like a lot.

[970] But in the TV world.

[971] But in the TV world.

[972] And, you know, if you're like, look, I've made the longest running sitcom in the history of television here, it should be more than a billion.

[973] Yeah, north of a million, south of a billion.

[974] Yeah, because Uncle Sam's taking half.

[975] Sure.

[976] You know, this isn't a walk away money.

[977] obviously said you're crazy we're going to make a lot more than that i don't even know what i don't know what that guy was thinking in that meeting yeah did you guys fire him ultimately as an agent okay i don't this day i'm confused about it but we had a moment where we sort of stuck our foot down and said we got to make at least this to feel as though in and i haven't wasted our lives yes i'm just saying there was a point where at least you got paid some significant thing was that just like, oh, wow.

[978] That was Rob and I and Glenn with a whiteboard doing a lot of calculations and arguing with our representatives about what should be this and like, okay, then give us your packaging fee and all sorts of things.

[979] We were way ahead in the game and that, the reason everyone's fired all their, all the writers.

[980] Yeah, you guys were one of the first to go white wine and earth.

[981] Are you guys getting a package?

[982] And by the way, I say we, but it's so Rob.

[983] I mean, look at me. Am I here talking about the facts?

[984] Like I said, I'm like, I got a pile of checks.

[985] I'm like, you're kind of certain the agent said a million.

[986] Well, you know what?

[987] I just think differently.

[988] And I think it's, you know, they want to break it down and look at the whiteboard.

[989] And I'm like, why are we doing this?

[990] Let's just pick the number that I could live if I never made another dime off of Sunny, but I made this.

[991] Yes.

[992] And let's say, okay, let's go that.

[993] And then when they say no, we'll say, well, we'll take half.

[994] Right, right, right, right.

[995] Okay, a third then.

[996] That's fine.

[997] I guess the only thing I'm building up to is there is a point in your life where you move out of wherever you're living and you get to go buy a house that you would really, really want and you get to have some real security.

[998] And that's a pretty profound, cool, rare experience in a moment, right?

[999] It's a game changer.

[1000] I had to get married to someone to get that.

[1001] Well, well done.

[1002] It doesn't matter how you get it.

[1003] But when horrible bosses comes out and it's a huge hit, the other thing I would think you'd have to be, conscious of managing is the three of you guys start out is completely anonymous and you guys get varying credit for the show itself as it becomes successful and um and then when one guy goes off and becomes a movie star i have to imagine even if everyone's healthy you're in a cold play and you're sharing all the revenue still that's that's a new dynamic for everyone to deal with isn't it yeah well look it's hard to know i guess when when you're the person you're the guy you're You know, like, people were cool about it.

[1004] You know, people were, look, the reason we've lasted, as long as we've lasted is Rob and Glenn and Caitlin and Danny are all really good people.

[1005] They have their feet on the ground.

[1006] We fight all the time, but the fights are always about how can we make this show the best thing that it can be.

[1007] And it's never been the sort of ego fights.

[1008] And, you know, like, Rob and I got an argument this year over something.

[1009] but we I realized and I said them after like do you realize that we're both upset about the same thing is that we're trying to figure out how to properly manage time you know but we're just saying it in two completely different way like a merry couple you realize you're you're having the same point of view and found a way to argue about it but right but um they were good about it I don't know yeah they were they were very very and you didn't have any kind of like guilt over it either like a little bit maybe like a little concern of like I hope no one is uh holds this against me but they didn't, or I don't think, I certainly maybe I didn't go around lording it over anybody.

[1010] No, it was pretty easy.

[1011] So they watched me get some movies and then not get movies.

[1012] Was there a moment, though, when things were really going fantastic, that you were like, I don't know that I want to have to carve out time for the show.

[1013] Sure.

[1014] Because this is a new adventure.

[1015] Anything new is going to be fun.

[1016] There's novelty in movies because, you know, you only do it for three months.

[1017] and that's exciting.

[1018] Because the one thing I just want to commend you all on is that, unlike many bands, you seem to have the wherewithal to go like, this is a very rare thing.

[1019] This is a 1 % of the time you get on a show that lasts even seven seasons.

[1020] And now to do you guys are in 13 or 14 or 15 or something, to have the wherewithal to go like, no, no, let's not, let's not forget who brought us to the party and let's keep this really magical thing alive.

[1021] I think is really admirable.

[1022] I think for me, it's hard to say.

[1023] Maybe if all of a sudden, Paul Thomas Anderson and Scorsese and the directors that I love and admire, you know, my phone was ringing off the hook, maybe I would have had to say the guys, look, I really want to go work with these people and I got to go this direction and I can't keep doing the show.

[1024] But they didn't call.

[1025] I mean, there was always time to do the show.

[1026] I was lucky enough to do a few movies, but I would, I was lucky enough to do a few movies.

[1027] I would be able to like schedule it with the guys with the offseason and we would figure it out.

[1028] Sometimes there was a year or two where I ducked out of editing maybe a month early or something like that.

[1029] But we just found a way to make it work.

[1030] And that was to their credit too, which if I had something pop up, they weren't like, screw you, man. We're doing this at this time.

[1031] Yeah.

[1032] See, that would have been the perfect time to make a logical case when really it was emotional.

[1033] Like if I'm Rob or Glenn.

[1034] Well, no, we got to shoot at this day because we got to post it.

[1035] And then we got to deliver, instead really just going like, I feel abandoned by you.

[1036] Yeah.

[1037] I feel like you're picking something over this special thing we have.

[1038] I think it probably was a two -way road.

[1039] Like, those guys were wonderful and generous enough to never make me feel that way.

[1040] And I think I was a good enough person to always be available when you could be available.

[1041] Yeah, to make sure that I wasn't just turning my nose up to all the hard work that we've done.

[1042] And the other part of it is I love the show.

[1043] And to this day, I'm more proud of the show than any other thing.

[1044] Yeah, pretty much.

[1045] I mean, I'm grateful to be in all those movies, but I don't like them as much as I like Sonny because it's my baby.

[1046] You know, it's like I. Of course.

[1047] With Robin Glenn, but like.

[1048] I would also argue the accomplishment is quantifiably a bigger accomplishment.

[1049] If you can do 100 plus episodes of something and keep it good.

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] Well, that's the other thing, too.

[1052] I mean, to bring it back to money a little bit, but that was still paying my bills more than anything else, which is that, you know, because I own the show with the guys, it just, there was more upside to, okay, so take six, eight months, have total creative control of something.

[1053] Fans love you in the way that they really love you.

[1054] They don't love you because, hey, I heard you have a great show.

[1055] I love you.

[1056] No, they love you because they watch a show.

[1057] Otherwise, they don't know who the fuck you are.

[1058] Yeah.

[1059] Oh, I said one time sent Rob a picture.

[1060] I was at Islands, and there was a whole table full of like six people, three on each side, all wearing sunny shirts.

[1061] That's crazy.

[1062] And they were just, like, rabid.

[1063] That's all they were talking about.

[1064] And I took a picture of them and sent it to me. Like, yeah, your guys' fans are real.

[1065] Yeah, which is great.

[1066] I mean, and I think that goes back to, that is sort of what I wanted.

[1067] You know, like, I wanted to make a thing that people reacted to the way I react to, like, a Colin Brothers movie, which is that I, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't form a sentence like I can't now if those guys walk in the room.

[1068] Right.

[1069] Right.

[1070] There's certain people creatively that I look up to.

[1071] But there's also something really fun about being into something that not everyone is into.

[1072] Like to say you liked Seinfeld or friends isn't really going to like cut through three layers when you meet somebody.

[1073] Yeah.

[1074] But if you're like, oh, my favorite movies with Nail and I, you're like, oh, shit.

[1075] You know, there's just another layer of like connection.

[1076] Sure.

[1077] I feel that way when someone has seen idiocrycy, which I love.

[1078] And I love you in it.

[1079] Oh, thank you.

[1080] But, uh, very polarizing performance.

[1081] It's great.

[1082] It's great.

[1083] Terrifying.

[1084] Terrifying because I feel like that's a real guy, you know.

[1085] But yes, I like the people that come up to me to say they like me and that.

[1086] Yeah.

[1087] I get more of a bang out of than if I've been in something that just was broadly successful.

[1088] I think, though, too, I would imagine you have a different level of sort of recognizability than I do, which is that with you, with your relationship, you're in magazines.

[1089] you have that whole thing where I don't have that.

[1090] I've never had that.

[1091] And personally, I don't think that I want it.

[1092] Right.

[1093] It's like it's a, yeah.

[1094] So usually when people come up to me, they really know my work and they're fans of it.

[1095] So it's generally a really great experience.

[1096] Right, right.

[1097] Unless they're wasted.

[1098] You don't want to be around a really wasted guy.

[1099] No, no, no. But I would imagine after horrible bosses, it probably got to a level that maybe it wasn't quite that.

[1100] I would say horrible buses has not had the reach that Sunny's head.

[1101] Oh, okay.

[1102] And I think that's part of, I think Robin Glenn and I have a chip on our shoulder about this kind of thing.

[1103] Right.

[1104] Which is that I think within the industry, there's sort of this feeling that Sunny is kind of this cult thing.

[1105] Only a couple of people know about it.

[1106] But I can't go through an airport without people knowing me from that show.

[1107] Yeah.

[1108] Even when I just said, isn't it cool to be in something that's not friends, is that triggering at all?

[1109] Oh, well, no, I think admittedly we're not friends because I think that's such an international juggernaut and, you know.

[1110] Yeah, I can understand that going like, no, it's not my cute little fucking TV show, okay?

[1111] Yeah, little people watch it.

[1112] Yeah.

[1113] That's the thing.

[1114] You know, the other things are the little sidegings.

[1115] Right.

[1116] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1117] Well, only one question about one of your movies.

[1118] Ice Cube couldn't have been a bigger fan of his.

[1119] in high school.

[1120] Just knew every word to every song he ever wrote.

[1121] Obsessed.

[1122] Me too.

[1123] That's a unique thing to share, I feel like.

[1124] I, yeah, and I didn't know really how to broach that with him.

[1125] You know, I was like, this is going to make you feel really uncool, man. But this freckley little white kid in Rhode Island didn't have a car radio, so he had a boom box sitting in shotgun with your album in it, you know.

[1126] No, I loved his music too.

[1127] But, no, Cuba's was the greatest.

[1128] he was yeah i mean just incredibly professional and not overly friendly in a way that would be surprising like oh you're a super chatty guy no he's still cute and he's kind of keeping him himself but right that was tough movie though for both of us because we shot that fight scene oh man i forget how long it was exactly but like seven eight straight days oh my god fighting all day every day oh and after one day of fight scenes you're like so sore the next day i got sciatica in a way that I'd never have before.

[1129] I couldn't feel my foot.

[1130] Oh, geez.

[1131] Like, my whole leg was numb.

[1132] Yeah.

[1133] I went and got like a cortisone shot.

[1134] I think Cube also got an MRI for something like that.

[1135] Oh, wow.

[1136] Yeah.

[1137] Like, we're not in great shape because we're not supposed to be as the characters.

[1138] Like, maybe his character could have been, but I'm certainly not supposed to be in great shape.

[1139] Uh -huh.

[1140] So that was a physically grueling movie doing that.

[1141] Well, I was one time doing press at ESPN, and I'm walking across the courtyard, nice, Cube is walking by and he is obviously promoting something and I really gave him my A game and I just I could not get anything going with him not not one thing I walked away going oh I don't what conclusion can I draw from you.

[1142] Did he know who you were?

[1143] I don't know he probably didn't know how you were that that would be probably the best of all options.

[1144] He probably just thought you were a fan and I think you went in there assuming you knew you knew sure sure you know he knew who you were yeah yeah he probably not that's that's the most gracious uh conclusion to draw really because i'm like otherwise he knows who i am and he hates what he's seen you know he finds me very annoying well you might you might have annoyed him but that's what i love about that guy he's got that same thing of mackle anywhere he's like he doesn't suffer fools right it's not for fools man it's funny no courtesy laughs coming from cube no if you said to him like hey man i really like today it was a good day he'd be like i know yeah it was number one so it's like a great song.

[1145] Everyone voted.

[1146] What do you want me to do?

[1147] Backflip because you like my song.

[1148] You know?

[1149] He was a funny guy though.

[1150] At one point I remember asking him, forget, like he was like drinking a Coke or whatever.

[1151] Something like I was like, hey, you know, do you worry about that kind of stuff?

[1152] Like what you're eating?

[1153] Whatever.

[1154] He goes, he's like, man, here's what I don't want on my gravestone.

[1155] I don't want it to say, Ice Cube, died from nothing.

[1156] Died from nothing.

[1157] Yeah.

[1158] So I was like, that's kind of a good outlook, man. Now, did you ever have like a dinner with him or anything?

[1159] Did you get that close?

[1160] Have you been to his house?

[1161] No. Not my move.

[1162] Not because.

[1163] because I'm above it.

[1164] I think because I'm shy.

[1165] And if if no one goes out of their way to invite me, I'll not ask to be invited.

[1166] Right.

[1167] So I've had co -stars, you know, that I've gotten to know really well, whatever, like to say, Acis, through all the stuff, you know, Bateman.

[1168] Aniston's had me over for some nice parties at her house, and that was always really exciting.

[1169] But I still, to this day, would not be like, hey, I'm going to reach out and ask if we can do dinner.

[1170] I just, I don't know, I can't.

[1171] Right.

[1172] Just shy that way.

[1173] But that's kind of terrible, right?

[1174] Because you're blocking off half your opportunities because people probably think the same thing half the time.

[1175] And half the time if you're like, oh, you want to grab dinner?

[1176] Oh, yeah.

[1177] Someone's just waiting for someone to make the first move.

[1178] Yeah.

[1179] So Mary Elizabeth.

[1180] Yes.

[1181] She has the same name as your mother.

[1182] She's not.

[1183] She doesn't.

[1184] She's a Mary Elizabeth.

[1185] Now, this is a fine thing.

[1186] That's a double name is a Southern thing because she's not in Mississippi.

[1187] When I've been around her, everyone does say Mary Elizabeth.

[1188] They don't say Mary.

[1189] And she hates it when people call her Mary.

[1190] And I always feel bad for her because she has to go through life explaining that it's a two -name name.

[1191] But I also feel a little bit bad for the person because unless you're from the South, you know, growing up in New England, we didn't know that we're just going to start slapping on extra names.

[1192] No, no one got two names.

[1193] In fact, you had a longer name that got shortened as a nickname.

[1194] Yeah, right.

[1195] If your name was Bobby Joe, you'd be like...

[1196] BJ.

[1197] No problem.

[1198] Next thing.

[1199] Yeah, there you go.

[1200] There you go.

[1201] Okay, so it's Mary Elizabeth, so it's not the same name as your mother.

[1202] But at the same time, it is the same name because it's not one word.

[1203] In its totality, it's one name.

[1204] In its totality, it's a name.

[1205] There's a space, though.

[1206] There's a space in a recapitalization.

[1207] That's right.

[1208] So the first part of her name is your mother's name.

[1209] Yeah, true.

[1210] She's a party.

[1211] I just want to say, I've only been around her five times in my life.

[1212] Very memorable all five times.

[1213] She's extremely cute.

[1214] Yeah, to the point where, like, I think we've been together so long that I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I let her shine, and I've just sort of, like, laid down in life now.

[1215] You know, like, like, we, like, she goes out and does her thing, like, when we go out to dinner.

[1216] And sometimes I'm like, okay, all right, I better turn my spark on here, but I...

[1217] It's kind of nice, though, that she does all the lifting, right?

[1218] It can be nice.

[1219] Because I, too, I'm entertained with what she has to say and think.

[1220] And you guys have been together for, what, 16 years now, or so?

[1221] 2018, 18 years?

[1222] We met in December of 2001.

[1223] Right, so coming up on 18 years.

[1224] right off the bat.

[1225] And then you had a son, seven and a half years ago?

[1226] Yeah.

[1227] December 15th.

[1228] Okay, we have a December 19th.

[1229] No, do you have guilt about having a kid like close to Christmas?

[1230] My birthday's January 2nd.

[1231] Oh, it's my father's birthday.

[1232] Is it really?

[1233] Yeah.

[1234] I would argue it's the single worst birthday in the world because everyone just got partied out and they made New Year's resolutions.

[1235] I'll give you that.

[1236] No one's coming to your party.

[1237] And if they come, they're not drinking or eating.

[1238] Even as the terrible son I am, I'm sometimes forgetting like, oh shit, right?

[1239] And my dad's birthday is right after.

[1240] Yes, there's a lot of big events.

[1241] You got Christmas and New Year's right there.

[1242] You've burned out.

[1243] You've just done the whole Christmas thing.

[1244] You've thought tickets.

[1245] You've flown across the country.

[1246] You've thought of gifts for people.

[1247] You're exhausted.

[1248] Now you've got to think of Dax.

[1249] No, not happening.

[1250] I'll catch up with him in February is what they think.

[1251] So for me, there was a, you know, there was the outside chance that she could have been born on the second because there's only a week and a half away.

[1252] And I was like, as long as she doesn't land there, I feel fine.

[1253] So it's dramatically better than my birthday, I would say.

[1254] So I didn't feel too bad about it.

[1255] So far it's been fine, you know, five days in a child's life.

[1256] No, no, 10 days, 10 days, sorry.

[1257] And child's life is an eternity.

[1258] Yeah, it's a year for us.

[1259] Has your experience been like mine where it's the single best thing?

[1260] Completely has changed who I am on like a molecular level.

[1261] To the point where I'm having a hard time, I think it's starting to just affect my life in general getting it up for other things because I'm so in love and focused on this and fulfilled and fulfilled and that means so much to me that I have to like find excitement again about the show business or whatever else it is you know but I'm also practical in a time where I'm like I need to have my attention and my focus here because he's seven now I probably only have him in the house for 10 more years and then you know he goes to college or something at 18 or whatever, you know, he goes off and does.

[1262] He probably won't be that interested in hanging around with dad that much.

[1263] Well, you got to just say best case scenario, how often do you see your folks?

[1264] And that's pretty much what you should be expecting.

[1265] And when you do that, it gets, it gets real heartbreaking.

[1266] I'm not going to let that happen.

[1267] Oh, we all think I'm going to fucking follow that kid.

[1268] But I wonder, like, all the things you're saying, which I find very inspiring and aspirational as far as focusing on the process, just loving the work, all these things, money seems right size.

[1269] I'm wondering, I've gotten to a very similar place.

[1270] It has been a long road for me, but certainly the kids are the most important piece to decoding that whole thing for me, which is, it puts it all in perspective.

[1271] A thousand percent.

[1272] It's a useful tool in terms of getting out of the total narcissism that is having a career in show business.

[1273] Because you have to focus on yourself as an actor, yourself is your tool.

[1274] You know, your tool isn't the software you're building.

[1275] It's yourself.

[1276] Right.

[1277] You have to think about yourself.

[1278] How you look, how you sound, you know.

[1279] And even directing, if you're starring and stuff, you're looking yourself constantly in editing.

[1280] And to use your software example, if you build the software, you had better evaluate the other software to see if your shit's as fast as that.

[1281] So it's like, what business wouldn't you be comparing your product to the other products in the marketplace?

[1282] A bad businessman would be doing that.

[1283] Yeah, that's an upsetting, but true metaphor, because you're right.

[1284] Then you're looking at the other products on the market, and you're saying, oh, God, that thing computes so fast, why am I not doing that?

[1285] Yes.

[1286] I watch Will Forte's fucking Last Man on Earth, and I'm like, Oh, Shepard, kick it into gear.

[1287] This motherfucker is so far out in the horizon.

[1288] Yeah.

[1289] You know what I'm saying?

[1290] I try not to do that too much because there's been a couple times where I've seen performances that I remember seeing Sean Penn in Sweet and Lowdown, Woody Allen's Sweet and Lowdown.

[1291] I saw it in the theater when it came out.

[1292] I was in New York.

[1293] and I remember thinking, oh, I don't know what I'm doing.

[1294] His acting was so good in it.

[1295] I thought, okay, this is, I've gone about this all wrong.

[1296] We have different occupations.

[1297] Yeah.

[1298] And it's funny.

[1299] I just had, I think, wrapped shooting my movie that I directed, and I watched Roma, and I thought, okay, what have I, you know, why, what business do I have directing a movie?

[1300] This is what a director does.

[1301] I had the exact same.

[1302] Chris and I went and saw the last Nolan movie.

[1303] the World War II, what was it?

[1304] Oh, yeah, yeah, Dunker.

[1305] Dunkirk.

[1306] And we left the movie theater and I said, you know, if we were both in Michigan being introduced to some people that aren't show business, someone could say, this is Dax, he's a director, this is Christopher Nolan, he's a director.

[1307] I was like, that would be the most unfair descriptor of us.

[1308] I mean, we share that title, but there's nothing.

[1309] I should not be allowed to be called that.

[1310] You know what?

[1311] It's really important not to think that way.

[1312] It's very important not to do that to yourself, right?

[1313] We're our own worst enemies.

[1314] We beat ourselves up in the most, there are certain gifts that someone has to do a very specific thing.

[1315] And I can tell myself, Nolan probably can't direct a comedy.

[1316] Maybe not.

[1317] I hope not.

[1318] But probably can.

[1319] He probably can.

[1320] He probably did a great job at it.

[1321] He probably would actually be one of the better comedies you ever saw.

[1322] It was scary.

[1323] Okay, fine.

[1324] Beat yourself up a little bit.

[1325] He's a great director.

[1326] Okay.

[1327] So El Tonto, can you tell me about El Tonto?

[1328] I can.

[1329] Yeah.

[1330] Well, I wrote it six years ago.

[1331] Okay.

[1332] And it took me about that long to get it made.

[1333] And I had this idea, and I wanted to make a movie, like the kind of movies that I loved, you know, like movies from the 70s, movies like being there.

[1334] It's very close to a being there type story where a character is wandering through a world and sort of being dragged through a story like Mr. Magoo.

[1335] So I don't know.

[1336] I just loved those kind of movies.

[1337] movies.

[1338] I wanted to play a silent character, something I had not done.

[1339] I don't know if it was just reading too much criticism about my voice or whatever was in there, but I was like, I don't try to do the silent thing.

[1340] And so I'd written this sort of silent character that gets dragged to the story.

[1341] And then nobody wanted to make it.

[1342] Uh -huh.

[1343] Nobody wanted to make it forever.

[1344] And I understand.

[1345] Well, as much as you are critical of your voice, it is the defining characteristic of your comedy.

[1346] It's like, what is so funny about you?

[1347] You know how to use it exactly the way it should be used, and it's really your signature.

[1348] I get, to me, I don't, I, like, I, you know, I don't hear it in my head.

[1349] Right.

[1350] I'm coming off, I'm coming off sounding great.

[1351] Fred Astaire.

[1352] Yeah, yeah, it's Crystal Blitz.

[1353] It's Jamesville Jones, man. Yeah, perfect enunciation.

[1354] Now I accept it.

[1355] But yeah, so anyways, if I'm, if I have money to throw at you and I go, oh, great, so you're not going to do my favorite thing.

[1356] You're Will Ferrell and you're going to, you know, that's part of the problem.

[1357] You're going to keep your shirt on the whole movie.

[1358] No, thank you.

[1359] Let's get it off.

[1360] Plus, that's the type of story that is just, you know, it's not very commercial.

[1361] But those are also my, all my favorite films are, you know, I love great filmmakers.

[1362] I guess to set a file in a little bit, you know, like to add a file.

[1363] Yeah, it's a add a file in the conversation.

[1364] Yeah.

[1365] And a bit of a nerd in that way, or I just, you know, anything, I sort of hate to name directors, but anything the great respected filmmakers put out, I'm all over it.

[1366] I can't wait to watch it.

[1367] Are you so excited about Tarantino's new movie?

[1368] Yeah.

[1369] You know, interestingly, I got asked to audition for that.

[1370] You did?

[1371] And I turned it down because I was making this movie, well, for two reasons, for two reasons.

[1372] And I'll tell, I'll tell it.

[1373] Primarily because I was, I finally got the financing, I had the cast together.

[1374] I was in pre -production.

[1375] Most of my success in this business has been those leaps of faith that I took on myself.

[1376] like I had offered to do a different kind of commercial sitcom when we were putting sunny together and I said no I'm going to do this sunny thing and that thing went nowhere and you know we're still going but and so I thought I just I got to make this movie that was one part of it the other part of it was that I knew they're not going to cast me as this character should I say should not say yeah I don't want to okay well they had asked me to come in an audition for Charles Manson and I'm like nah nah that's I don't want to see myself as Charles Manson that's going to take me out of the movie Oh, like, no, I'm looking at you and I'm totally seeing it.

[1377] No. Yes.

[1378] I would, it would have ruined the movie.

[1379] No, it wouldn't.

[1380] So what would have been really fun is if you would have not played it as a psycho, but the guy had to be charming.

[1381] Oh, definitely.

[1382] All we've seen is the fucking footage of him with exes on his head in prison and we see him as the devil.

[1383] But clearly he was charismatic and likable.

[1384] There's no way he could have assembled the cult and not been that way.

[1385] True.

[1386] And I'm sure when you're in the hands of a film.

[1387] or like Tarantino, they're going to get the best out of you.

[1388] That's why everyone's great in their movies.

[1389] A really good director sees your essence and uses it in a way that it fits, you fit into the machine in the right way.

[1390] Wouldn't his vote of confidence get you there?

[1391] Sure.

[1392] Like even if I read something, I'm like, he's not going to hire me for this.

[1393] I'll go read anyways because it's him.

[1394] And then he goes, no, that's it.

[1395] I would start believing it, I think.

[1396] Well, I almost did read just for the experience of reading with him or for him.

[1397] Or even if, I don't, I assume he was going to be in the room, but maybe he wasn't, just to have that experience because who wouldn't want to meet Tarantino?

[1398] But the other side of me was like, no, you're making your thing.

[1399] And then you're just going to get into situations even harder.

[1400] So it was hard enough to turn down the audition.

[1401] What about now if you really want you?

[1402] Now you've got a real Sophie's choice.

[1403] Yeah.

[1404] I mean, if you wanted me, I would have done it.

[1405] Right.

[1406] How many days did you have?

[1407] 24.

[1408] Yeah, that's tight.

[1409] I had like 50 locations, something crazy.

[1410] It's a big story.

[1411] Because this character gets dragged through all these different worlds.

[1412] And it's, you know, like those, like a Chandler novel, he's going through L .A. in these different sort of, you know, subcultures.

[1413] And you have to create these worlds and go to these great locations.

[1414] And I just had to have it all so mapped out.

[1415] And so it's you and Malcovich?

[1416] Myself, John Malcovich, E. Falko, Ken Jong, who's great in the movie.

[1417] I think this is some of the best work anyone's ever seen him do.

[1418] I hope people respond to it the way, I mean, obviously, I'm partial.

[1419] He goes really into a really emotional place on one scene that I've never seen him do and he really nailed it in a great way.

[1420] Cape Beck and Sale.

[1421] Oh, wow.

[1422] Adrian Brody, Jason Sadecas, Gillian Bell.

[1423] Jason Bateman came and did a little thing for me. Really quick.

[1424] Common.

[1425] Oh, yeah, sure, sure.

[1426] It's incredible in it.

[1427] We were on an airplane with him a few months ago.

[1428] And he unloaded a lady's bag for her, and Rob quickly said, that's uncommon.

[1429] I liked it a lot.

[1430] That's pretty good.

[1431] It was real quick, right on.

[1432] the heels of it.

[1433] And Ray Leota.

[1434] And Ray Leota.

[1435] Did it give you anxiety to give some of these people notes?

[1436] Like, what do you fucking John Malkovich, you got to go like, okay, so here's the story.

[1437] You're a million times better of an actor.

[1438] That doesn't mean that I can't see that the scene needs to be a little different than what it is.

[1439] Well, you hope that the acting itself, that you've done the work on the page, they get what you're going for, that they're not going to come in with a choice.

[1440] So, sometimes I just try to find the middle ground.

[1441] Like Kate Beck and Pitchell pitched me this thing where she wanted to have this like a giant white rabbit in some scenes.

[1442] And I said, yeah, let's try it.

[1443] And I'm so glad I did it.

[1444] It's such a funny little thing when you get to that scene.

[1445] It's a specific weird thing.

[1446] It's great for her character.

[1447] And Adrian Brody had a lot of pitches too.

[1448] And I would just let him try them.

[1449] I'd be like, okay, try it.

[1450] And some of them were home runs.

[1451] And some of them were really funny, but not right for the movie.

[1452] Right.

[1453] So I've usually open to letting, if I have the time, to letting someone try something, unless it completely changes the character, like an accent that you're like, you can't do it like that.

[1454] Yeah.

[1455] Well, the famous story I just can't believe is Paul Thomas Anderson and, and, yeah, but what's his name, three names?

[1456] Daniel Day Lewis.

[1457] They were on Charlie Rose, and Charlie goes, is it true that you guys threw out the first week of filming?

[1458] And they kind of look at each other, like, are they going to tell this story?

[1459] and then Paul goes yeah what happened was we filmed for a week and then I asked Daniel to come watch dailies with me and he said I don't watch dailies and I said I know that you don't watch dailies but I'm asking you to watch these dailies and they sat and watched the whole first week of dailies and at the end Paul said I don't think your character is working and I just thought where would one get the confidence to tell what is universally regarded as the best living actor that his choice is wrong how would you not question well fuck maybe he's right I mean well fortunately by then you'd already made boogie nights exactly you had a little bit of toe to toe yeah you know but still a very brave decision yeah I could see myself going well fuck we're just going to have to live with this choice yeah yeah I think that's one of my shortcomings too is not I'm a little bit of a people pleaser in that way.

[1460] Me too.

[1461] Yeah.

[1462] Which is terrible for a director can't be.

[1463] But I think I have, you know, I'd had at this point 13 years of experience managing actors, writers and props guys and whatever it is, you know, costumes, all those choices that we make on Sunny that I learn how to speak those languages.

[1464] There's a way to say, okay, this is a thousand percent wrong.

[1465] I'm going to tell this person that in a way that completely does not.

[1466] you know, hurt their feelings does not make them not brave enough to keep pitching me things.

[1467] Right.

[1468] You know, you don't want to stifle their creativity.

[1469] You don't.

[1470] You don't.

[1471] And oftentimes I'll also say, look, another thing I've learned is that I don't know anything.

[1472] So the second I think I know something, it's probably the worst creative space to be.

[1473] So let me just hear out this choice and feel it out, ride it for a minute.

[1474] And then if it keeps pinging me is wrong, then, you know, or maybe I'll ask someone else.

[1475] I'll be like, hey, you know, so -and -so thinks that this person should be wearing this tie.

[1476] How do you feel about that?

[1477] You know, you don't have to be, you don't have to do it alone.

[1478] Right, right.

[1479] Yeah.

[1480] So I think I'm always, was always navigating that.

[1481] By the way, everyone is coming to you with an idea.

[1482] And so Rob and I have a joke where we call them ruins.

[1483] Everyone's coming to you with these ruins.

[1484] But their ruins have the best intentions.

[1485] They're like, you know, I actually thought it'd be funny if when the guy's singing the song, he sings it off key.

[1486] Like, yeah, we're like, well, right, yeah.

[1487] Technically, that's going to ruin the sin.

[1488] But, but I understand how you're trying to to make your one specific thing.

[1489] Yeah, yeah.

[1490] Very funny, but you're, you don't have the big picture, and I would never say it like this, this would, right, right.

[1491] But you instead, you're like, hmm, that's interesting.

[1492] Let's get one that way and then let's go back to the way.

[1493] Or you, depending on the person and everyone's personalized, if you've got to go in there and say, I think when you look at the big picture, that's actually going against what we're trying to, you know.

[1494] By the way, when you have kids, it's very helpful.

[1495] You get really practiced at that.

[1496] Yeah.

[1497] Right?

[1498] Yeah.

[1499] You can't let them light something on fire, and then you also don't want to shit on their enthusiasm to try doing something.

[1500] So it's like you learn to talk through having kids a little bit.

[1501] You do.

[1502] You do.

[1503] That's true.

[1504] In a soft but yet direct way.

[1505] Look, I always was good cop.

[1506] I think Rob and I would play good cop, bad cop.

[1507] I come in as good cop and he comes in his bad cop and we get stuff done.

[1508] But, you know, in the movie, I was like, I can even play good cop.

[1509] I can play good cop the whole way, except for every now and then.

[1510] Every now and then I switch to bad cop And it scares the shit out of people Because I'm always good cop And all of a sudden And it's very effective So I just, it's a very useful card I'm hanging on to it And you know If it's like four in the morning In the 80s just not listening to me Then that's when Hey man, shut the fuck up comes out And then everyone's like, huh?

[1511] Right Well, when does it come out?

[1512] It's not.

[1513] Oh, you don't know I don't know But you've finished it I'm finishing it now So I'm like coloring it And doing ADR and having all my music battles But that being said, I'll, I will judo my way into getting everything I want eventually.

[1514] Right, right.

[1515] That's what I do.

[1516] Yeah.

[1517] Yeah.

[1518] My thing with the music is, and I feel like you would have an upper hand here or an advantage over me, which is I know how to talk about shots and lenses and cameras and moves and acting and attention and all the stuff.

[1519] Editing, I've edited.

[1520] I'm good with all that.

[1521] When it gets to music, I'm not a musician.

[1522] So I have to try to get what's in my head into your head, but I don't have any of the words for it.

[1523] Like, I understand music, but then I don't want to come in and arrogantly be like, be like the viola should be more staccato because the guys are going to be like, fuck you, fake, you fucking fake.

[1524] You fool gazing, fucking fake.

[1525] You don't know shit about shit.

[1526] Read five notes.

[1527] I don't know why he's got a Boston accent.

[1528] I almost felt peshyish to me. Yeah, yeah.

[1529] A little bit.

[1530] Can you do a peshy?

[1531] I'm not a, I don't think so.

[1532] You don't do impressions.

[1533] Fuck you.

[1534] fuck and you'd be like you know if you like that was good yeah yeah you're a fucking clown dude whatever oh that's good yeah it's got to be pinched but um well charlie thank you so much um and i think rob because i asked rob when i saw him i'm like please get charlie on here and boy he fucking delivered and i appreciate your openness to coming in right next him he's like i can tax tax him yeah sure i feel i feel we haven't we didn't scratch any like major depth of your soul let's let's crack something open Okay, okay.

[1535] All right, let's do it.

[1536] Okay, well, how about this?

[1537] How about this?

[1538] What fears do you have about having a son?

[1539] I fear about dying and abandoning him.

[1540] Okay.

[1541] That's my biggest fear is if something happens and I died young and...

[1542] What happens to him?

[1543] That I can't be there for him.

[1544] Although maybe that's not actually what's behind it.

[1545] Maybe it's just the fear of that I don't get to be there with him.

[1546] Because I'm sure he'll be fine.

[1547] He'll inherit a lot of money.

[1548] Right, right.

[1549] I live in a giant house to the mom that love it.

[1550] Do you think that fear is a manifestation of your own fear that you might work too much throughout this process?

[1551] Yeah, there's that.

[1552] I've been pretty good about that.

[1553] To the point where it's starting to maybe not be healthy for me because I'm pretty much only working or raising my son.

[1554] I need a little bit.

[1555] That pie chart's getting squeezed where I'm like, I need to stop working so much, balance this out a little bit more.

[1556] Like I wish on Sunny I could just show up an act.

[1557] Right.

[1558] That's the best gig.

[1559] Just two months of acting, that'd be great.

[1560] It's a very easy show to act on.

[1561] I've done an episode of it.

[1562] And you guys fly.

[1563] We had scenes together.

[1564] Yeah, yeah.

[1565] It was so fun.

[1566] Weightlifters United or something.

[1567] As kickers United.

[1568] Yeah.

[1569] I ate paint and stuff.

[1570] Yeah, we're talking about one of us ate a toad or something.

[1571] Yeah.

[1572] You were cracking me up a lot because I was just genuinely a fan of yours comedy.

[1573] And I was like, oh, this is very fun to be in a scene with him.

[1574] Because you're pretty all over the place.

[1575] in a very good way, which I like to be as well.

[1576] Yeah, same.

[1577] Yeah.

[1578] It depends on the thing.

[1579] Like, we just did a, like, a film noir episode, which is going to be great.

[1580] And we did that sucker on book and hitting marks and very specific with where your head goes.

[1581] And that was fun to work in a different way.

[1582] I like that, too.

[1583] Mm -hmm.

[1584] But the freedom of Sonny, with those cameras pointing in both directions where you can just go and we can step all over each other conversationally, and we can go down any lane and find something.

[1585] That's really fun.

[1586] Yeah.

[1587] Yeah.

[1588] How about drinking?

[1589] Do you drink too much?

[1590] Yeah.

[1591] I did for a long time.

[1592] You did.

[1593] Yeah.

[1594] And I recently, I think I got some control on it.

[1595] Oh, really?

[1596] Just with some basic mindfulness?

[1597] Okay.

[1598] Like, what's the thoughts you have leading up?

[1599] I suddenly realized, like, I still want to drink.

[1600] I still want to be able to go out and have a drink.

[1601] I just don't want to be drunk anymore.

[1602] Right.

[1603] And I realized for me that that was the distinction, was that I don't, I don't have guilt about going to a nice dinner with someone and having a glass of wine or two.

[1604] I have guilt about getting a terrible hangover and feeling ill for three days.

[1605] Yes.

[1606] That's where the guilt comes in.

[1607] Like, I've destroyed my body and whatever else it is.

[1608] Generally, when you're hammered, do you say regrettable things?

[1609] I'm pretty, I think some way, you can fact check this, but I think I'm a pretty good drug.

[1610] Okay.

[1611] Yeah, I'm like, I'm like more fun than I am.

[1612] But occasionally, you know, you go to a party, you're like, what was I saying to that guy?

[1613] Yeah, sure, sure.

[1614] Right now I think I have pretty good grip on it.

[1615] Okay, so when you, so the sweet spot is you have two drinks at dinner, right?

[1616] Sweet spot is I can have two beers or two glasses of wine.

[1617] If I have three, I'm going to be like, why the fuck do I have that third?

[1618] But I now, in my 43 year in life, in just figuring that out.

[1619] Like it took me a while to figure it out It used to be like Yeah we're drinking and who cares Let's just go We've you know Torn the band -aid off And like But now I kind of realize Oh right these are my parameters I don't know talk to me in a year Maybe I'll be like no I'm sober I'm in a pro -exam Well I'll probably bump into you at a meeting Is what I'll happen Right right But I um Was it alcohol for you or was it drug alcohol Well alcohol for years And then and then alcohol and cocaine And then mostly cocaine really Brought an end to the whole party That's the one that gets its claws in people and they can't like...

[1620] Oh, yeah.

[1621] For me, thank God, it just never...

[1622] You didn't like it.

[1623] I think I'm a very anxious person.

[1624] I, like, suffer from anxiety attacks occasionally.

[1625] Uh -huh.

[1626] Anything that's going to ratchet up the anxiety is not great for me. Yeah.

[1627] Ironically, it made me feel much more in control.

[1628] Well, it just made me feel optimistic about the future, which was a nice relief.

[1629] Sure.

[1630] In the time, in the moment, but...

[1631] Oh, the calm down is...

[1632] Yeah, that's...

[1633] That's why the anxiety gets in.

[1634] Yeah.

[1635] Oh, yeah.

[1636] unfortunately I really only dabbled with that stuff like a very tiny bit and I knew I was like this is a bad this is a bad road for me yeah well then I'm then my assumption is that you liked weed did you like weed did you like well I did but then it's kind of a similar thing where it was like I'm just sitting in a chair psychoanalyzing myself I'm going fucking crazy here and I was like I also didn't like that uh -huh so but I just I I did enjoy being drunk and how do you come to these conclusions do you go to therapy or do you talk these out with Mary Elizabeth uh -huh I Because you feel to me very, like, self -aware and kind of mindful.

[1637] I'm pretty mindful guy, but, like, I think, I don't know what, you know, maybe that's just luck, having a brain that can kind of look at the big picture of your life and say, I need to do this or that.

[1638] Well, also the job lends itself to that, right?

[1639] Because when you're in a room and you're beating out story, you start really getting into, like, why is someone really do that, right?

[1640] And you're just getting this habit of, like, figuring out, like, well, the person can't just come over for no reason and then leave for no reason.

[1641] Like, what are they after?

[1642] And then I think it kind of It bolsters that wiring in your brain Where it's like it makes you a little bit conscious of Like, why am I doing it?

[1643] I think I just think more practically in the moment of like Should I do this or should I not be doing this?

[1644] You know like this is should I be drinking five beers a night or should I not?

[1645] Right.

[1646] You know, for a good 20 years the answer was yeah, I should.

[1647] Why not?

[1648] Well, how much has parenting been part of that?

[1649] Yeah.

[1650] And that changes everything.

[1651] Suddenly you're like, what am I going to be hung over all the time with the kid and The morning's miserable anyways.

[1652] They're up before you want to get up.

[1653] They have all these needs immediately.

[1654] They've got to fucking eat and they got to all.

[1655] Everything just starts happening like a fucking starter pistol.

[1656] And when we are on family vacations with other families, at night I'm a little jealous.

[1657] They start drinking.

[1658] Everyone starts drinking.

[1659] I'm like, oh, yeah, those kids' voices just got quieter.

[1660] Yeah.

[1661] You don't care as much.

[1662] You're not, you know.

[1663] How long have been sober?

[1664] It'll be 15 years in September.

[1665] Oh, wow.

[1666] Yeah.

[1667] Thank you.

[1668] Thank you.

[1669] But at night, I'm a little jealous of them.

[1670] Sure.

[1671] But then in the morning, when we all get up.

[1672] up.

[1673] I am like, not for a billion dollars would I be doing this hungover, because it's already miserable.

[1674] And it's got to be excruciating.

[1675] That's where I got to where I'm like, no, I don't want to be that.

[1676] Also, I don't want to be drunk around my kid.

[1677] Yeah.

[1678] Yeah.

[1679] He doesn't need to see that.

[1680] And like, fortunately, my parents didn't really drink.

[1681] I didn't grow up in that.

[1682] Maybe part of why I come across as a happy guy is that too feels, though I had a, for the most part, a happy childhood.

[1683] Like, all our childhoods are miserable for one reason or another.

[1684] Sure.

[1685] But at home, you know, Tom and Mary weren't throwing, you know, dishes at each other's heads and scream like, they, they were the good family and they weren't getting loaded.

[1686] Yeah.

[1687] So I kind of want to be able to provide that from my son, too.

[1688] But you remember, right, being young.

[1689] I knew which friends' parents were alcoholics.

[1690] Like, you know it.

[1691] Yeah.

[1692] I didn't.

[1693] I didn't until later.

[1694] Oh, okay.

[1695] Because I'm oblivious a lot of the time.

[1696] Yeah.

[1697] Again, I think that's an asset for just well.

[1698] being.

[1699] Yeah.

[1700] I don't know what it is.

[1701] I think I just am a daydream.

[1702] A constant daydream.

[1703] Yeah.

[1704] I think that's nice.

[1705] Someone starts telling me something and it triggers 50 thoughts in my head.

[1706] Uh -huh.

[1707] So do you think it's possible that you had ADHD when you were younger or it's not?

[1708] Yeah.

[1709] Yeah.

[1710] It's possible.

[1711] I haven't now.

[1712] I don't know.

[1713] Right.

[1714] But probably not.

[1715] Because I don't know if you're like me as a parent where when your kids are young, you spin out on every little thing, right?

[1716] So if your kid does something, you start Googling ADHD or whatever, and then, and then you're reading about kids who have it, and you're like, oh, oh, oh, no, no, we're okay.

[1717] Not that people's kids have ADHD aren't okay.

[1718] So I think in my paranoid reading, I don't think I quite tick enough boxes for that.

[1719] Right.

[1720] Yeah, I think I have a similar thing.

[1721] I haven't done it nearly as much with the second child, but I definitely was like, oh, at six months when she had left, she'd start swinging her head back and forth.

[1722] like kind of weird uh -huh i'm like oh jesus does she have i don't know what to call it tremors head swinging child and then you like horrible things about like yes uh you know sandy couldn't stop bashing her head into a wall for 50 hours you're like okay right that's not what's going on here yeah i mean it's totally normal but also it's kind of my disposition to go anything anytime something's going good i'm like yeah i don't trust this this is a little too good why is it so good and my kids have just been it's been great and i love it and it's all pretty positive and i'm waiting for one of the shoes to drop a little bit.

[1723] Well, yeah.

[1724] I mean, it will.

[1725] It will.

[1726] Because it's life, right?

[1727] Something will be difficult to get through at some point.

[1728] Do you have this thing?

[1729] I assume, where'd you grow up?

[1730] Detroit.

[1731] Born in a suburb of Detroit.

[1732] And so I imagine you are on your bike, tooling around the neighborhood, from what I've heard on the podcast, getting in fights and just, you know.

[1733] Raising house.

[1734] But being a neighborhood kid, you're at the door, out of the house, you're not going to let your daughters just leave your house.

[1735] and run all over L .A., right?

[1736] I'm going to try to.

[1737] I've done some stuff already that I have her riding motorcycles already.

[1738] I'm trying really hard to give her that sense of autonomy and, you know, it's hard, though.

[1739] That takes some courage.

[1740] I read an article.

[1741] I don't remember where this was, so this could be a good fact check thing.

[1742] There was some article where a guy who was studying a town in Vermont, and I think it was in the 80s.

[1743] maybe like our generation, and studied the kids.

[1744] They had about a nine mile radius from their home.

[1745] They went down to like the town dump and to the railroad tracks.

[1746] Yeah.

[1747] You know, they could go about that far.

[1748] Then it was like, all go beyond there.

[1749] And the person went back and they studied those people's children.

[1750] And they had a radius of their backyards.

[1751] They were not allowed to leave their backyards.

[1752] Right.

[1753] But the town from a crime rate and demographically had not changed at all.

[1754] Nothing had changed.

[1755] And in fact, there's probably less crime.

[1756] I mean, just nationally, crime has been going down since the 70s.

[1757] Yeah.

[1758] So there you go.

[1759] So we live in this culture of fear.

[1760] Of course, this is a 24 -hour news media cycle, whatever you call it, that we live in this constant state of parano.

[1761] But I feel it too.

[1762] I'm not going to get my kid on a bike and say, have a good day.

[1763] Come home when it gets dark.

[1764] It seems insane to me. It does seem insane.

[1765] But I feel bad for it.

[1766] I feel like I could in Rhode Island.

[1767] But again, bit of data that's really interesting is that cities are much safer than rural America.

[1768] When you look at rates of crime per population, the odds of them being a victim of a crime are much lower here than my town of Milford.

[1769] I rode my bike all around.

[1770] It's just a fact.

[1771] That is crazy.

[1772] It's safer in this city.

[1773] Uranized chance of something happening are much lower than if we were in rural America, which is crazy because the crimes that do happen here are extreme.

[1774] They found a fucking head behind the Hollywood sign, you know, like.

[1775] When you do hear about the thing, it's pretty gnarly.

[1776] Right.

[1777] But again, there's fucking 16 million of us in these three counties.

[1778] It's like, it's still way less than lightning, you know?

[1779] Yeah.

[1780] And the crimes in the small towns are extreme, too.

[1781] Also, do you have a swimming pool?

[1782] I do.

[1783] Number one killer of children in America, swimming pools.

[1784] Oh, for sure.

[1785] Yeah.

[1786] And I got one.

[1787] I have the most dangerous thing you can have for a kid.

[1788] But the pool itself is not dangerous.

[1789] It's not watching the kid while the kid's in the pool that's dangerous.

[1790] Yes.

[1791] Although you hear horror stories.

[1792] stories of like we were all there.

[1793] Oh, 100%.

[1794] It happened to our friends.

[1795] They were all in the pool.

[1796] And someone noticed one of the kids was at the bottom of the pool.

[1797] But they didn't know.

[1798] They lived, but they had to resuscitate them and go to the emergency room.

[1799] The kid lived?

[1800] Oh, thank you.

[1801] I don't know.

[1802] I don't think I could go on if that happened to me. Oh, the only reason I could is because I have another.

[1803] That's right.

[1804] Yeah.

[1805] I've met a few dudes in AA who have stayed sober through losing their child.

[1806] And I'm just like, not a chance.

[1807] I'm fucking moving to St. Louis above a liquor store and I'm going to go at it until I'm dead.

[1808] That's that, you know.

[1809] Yeah.

[1810] Yeah.

[1811] Yeah, I just can't.

[1812] I'm that.

[1813] I'm, yeah, I think I'm not only while I get drunk and probably smoke cigarettes and all that, but I think I'm going to look into like revenge.

[1814] Oh, of course.

[1815] I'm like, I want to take some anger out.

[1816] Oh, yeah.

[1817] But I think I would think that and then I would just, no, I would just turn on myself.

[1818] I have all these fantasies where I'm like, someone's going to hit my daughter at some point and I'm going to fucking kill that person.

[1819] I'm going to go to prison.

[1820] I'm going to take their dad out of their life.

[1821] I heard you talking with Rob about that.

[1822] That is an interesting thing.

[1823] Because I have a boy, how you teach them to sort of handle that.

[1824] Stick up for themselves yet not.

[1825] And my kid is weird that has something I never had where he's like the biggest kid in his class.

[1826] Oh, he is?

[1827] He hit some sort of genetic jackpot where.

[1828] Wow, some recessive genes paired up.

[1829] Yeah, I saved all my good.

[1830] shit.

[1831] He looks just like his mother and like me, but like he's big.

[1832] And I realize that you know, he's got to wield that power wisely, but he's a gentle giant.

[1833] Like, he's a sweet kid.

[1834] He's got in a couple things where a kid has, like, hit him before.

[1835] Uh -huh.

[1836] And I told him not to do anything about it.

[1837] Oh, really?

[1838] Not to, like, bite back.

[1839] And...

[1840] Uh -huh.

[1841] I think that's the right answer.

[1842] And I'm ultimately glad that I did because it wound up but then he would ask questions to me about it's like why did so -and -so do that to me why and then I would say sometimes kids do that it's going to happen but it's not going to make you feel good to retaliate although there was one time I think this last year where he was kept nagging about some kid some kid kept like hitting him and I was like just hit him back I was like taking the high road forever and then I don't know it was like late and I was like man just just push it back right right right because sometimes that sometimes that is the answer but then immediately after i said i was like no i should have said that and by the way i don't think that he did or ever would he's just not wired that way but but the thing you're trying to evaluate is is it going to be chronic is this a standalone thing and it'll pass or is this he going to spend the next 12 years of his life getting victimized and when you evaluate it that way the shitty option becomes less shitty in my opinion yeah um if that's true happening?

[1843] That's not happening at 7th.

[1844] It's not happening.

[1845] No. Yeah.

[1846] If that's truly happening, then you've got to teach them how to stand up themselves away.

[1847] But rarely it's through violence.

[1848] Usually that's going to.

[1849] Plus, I'm like, man, don't get kicked out of school.

[1850] Right, right.

[1851] This happened to us.

[1852] So someone was really mean to my daughter at school.

[1853] And my wife took the time to find out that the person that was mean to him had a new baby brother at home.

[1854] And she said, you know, I bet Michael's not feeling very special, and he's probably upset about that.

[1855] What if you brought Michael a present?

[1856] And I'm like, we're going to fucking give a present.

[1857] A kid who just like tormented her.

[1858] You open it.

[1859] Your fist is in it.

[1860] Surprise, Michael.

[1861] Fuck you, bitch.

[1862] Happy birthday, motherfucker.

[1863] By God, they brought a fucking present to this kid.

[1864] The kid's been so happy and nice ever since and felt special.

[1865] If you hit a motherfucker, you're going to get a present.

[1866] He's insane.

[1867] incentivized not only get you hit them but you're going to get you're going to get a big fact gift my wife might have made a serial killer out of that kid that's where that's headed but i was just like what a what an evolved position to take it's the last place my mind ends i'm like we got to get even we have set some boundaries we got to nine times out of ten there's a big picture about why someone's being a jerk or why yeah hurt people her people sometimes there's sadistic people and people are just doing a shitty thing to be shitty and there's no great explanation.

[1868] It seems like, I don't know.

[1869] Yeah.

[1870] Was your tactic in high school to, like, buddy up with someone who was a badass?

[1871] Mine was to usually just make people laugh.

[1872] I could make most people laugh.

[1873] And then occasionally when it was like, that's not working, it was to fight back.

[1874] Uh -huh.

[1875] You know, so usually there were times where, like, some bigger kid tried to pick on me. And it was like, oh, wow, that little fucker just fucking kicked me in the knee and, like, bit my arm over.

[1876] And they're like, and I'm not going to do it again.

[1877] The message you have to send isn't that you won.

[1878] It's that for all the other guys, this one's going to fight back.

[1879] Pick one that's not.

[1880] That's right.

[1881] Literally.

[1882] That's that simple.

[1883] That was pretty much how I moved through the world, which is like, I'm your buddy.

[1884] I'm your friend.

[1885] And, like, man, don't try to throw me in the bushes or put me in a headlock because I'm going to kick you in the balls.

[1886] Yeah.

[1887] And if you really piss me off, I'm going to, like, slash your tires and find your baby brother.

[1888] And, you know, like.

[1889] load up the 85 Honda cord with a BB gun.

[1890] Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[1891] Get in my honda cord.

[1892] Plus blast some ice cube.

[1893] Yes, boys in the hood this shit.

[1894] All right, well, Charlie Day, I love you.

[1895] You're hysterical.

[1896] I'm glad that you're thriving and continuing on.

[1897] I hope you guys do 100 seasons of Sunny.

[1898] And I'm excited to see El Tonto.

[1899] Thanks.

[1900] I'm going to, it's fun.

[1901] I'm going to get to walk home.

[1902] Oh, yeah.

[1903] You don't want to ride home.

[1904] I'm going the same way.

[1905] Unless you want to drive me, just hang.

[1906] I do.

[1907] I do.

[1908] I'm going to drive you right.

[1909] So this will be a first.

[1910] I'm going to drive home a guest.

[1911] I'm going to run.

[1912] First.

[1913] Let me take you for a ride in my Chrysler Pacifica.

[1914] That sounds very excited.

[1915] You're going to love it.

[1916] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1917] When the moon hits your eye like a big piece of pie, that's a moor.

[1918] Is it a big piece of pie?

[1919] Pizza pie?

[1920] Yes, of course.

[1921] It could also be a big piece of pie.

[1922] Yeah, but Italians aren't known for their pie so much.

[1923] I mean, I guess pastries, but nah, that's more French.

[1924] Yeah, Napoleon's.

[1925] Yeah.

[1926] Pizza pie, for sure.

[1927] So that's a stereotypical Italian song.

[1928] Yeah, and I sang it in response to having sang a stereotypical Asian song right before, and we knew that that couldn't be included in this podcast.

[1929] No, because that's not nice.

[1930] Right.

[1931] I'm allowed to make a fun of all.

[1932] Oh, my God, I go, I'm allowed to make a fun of all the white people.

[1933] I mean, I don't want, I don't want, I don't want you to make fun of anyone.

[1934] Why?

[1935] Because.

[1936] Making a fun.

[1937] A people is a fun.

[1938] No, no. Why do you think it says making fun?

[1939] Fun is in the thing.

[1940] It's fun.

[1941] For the person, not for the person receiving.

[1942] Not the person on the business end of the fun.

[1943] So speaking of that, I was at this wedding.

[1944] Yeah.

[1945] And this person I haven't seen in a really long time came up to me and gave me a very, very, very.

[1946] heartfelt apology.

[1947] You're kidding.

[1948] Yeah.

[1949] There was an incident years ago where friends were curious if you could do the generic Indian accent.

[1950] Exactly.

[1951] And then they ended up doing it.

[1952] Well, they were shocked you couldn't.

[1953] Uh -huh.

[1954] And then they went on to say like, oh, it's so easy.

[1955] You just, you know, and then they were doing it.

[1956] Yes.

[1957] And then they have since lived in deep shame over having done that.

[1958] They have.

[1959] He was like, I've been thinking about that for years.

[1960] And he works with students.

[1961] He said, like, I would hear other people doing that to other people.

[1962] And I would immediately be like, you can't, you cannot do that.

[1963] You do not know what that is doing to that person.

[1964] Yeah.

[1965] Anyway, it was so kind and sweet.

[1966] And I, of course, was like, you got to let yourself off the hook for that because that is, it's okay.

[1967] And it clearly impacted you a billion times more than that event impacted me. But this goes back to what we talked about once before.

[1968] I would almost think the worst part of being isolated for those things is not the being made fun of.

[1969] It's then having to comfort those people's guilt.

[1970] It's so, it's so layered.

[1971] It's so layered because you don't like the thing happening.

[1972] But then you're also just like, oh my gosh, I have to act like I like it first and foremost so that everyone feels comfortable so that you're cool too.

[1973] You're cool with it.

[1974] And if you do say, hey, that kind of makes me feel shitty.

[1975] now someone's going to be shamed in the moment.

[1976] Exactly.

[1977] And then it's uncomfortable and awkward for you.

[1978] And then you're going to have to comfort them.

[1979] So you just have to like laugh and be done with it.

[1980] And yeah, do your best to make them feel comfortable.

[1981] So that is a layered not fun situation.

[1982] It can be.

[1983] But anyway.

[1984] So that happened.

[1985] And then there was this apology and it was very sweet.

[1986] And I hope he feels free.

[1987] Totally free.

[1988] Because he's one of the nicest people I've ever met.

[1989] He doesn't need to hold on to that.

[1990] And that's where, like, look, each individual gets to choose whether or not they want to evaluate intention.

[1991] I'm not telling everyone that they have to evaluate intention if they're offended.

[1992] But, you know, for you in that moment, it's very rough.

[1993] Neither of those guys were dicks at a party going like, oh, look who's here, you know, and started dancing around.

[1994] Like, being, you know, intentionally cruel.

[1995] No. They were just out to lunch on how insensitive it was.

[1996] Because if it was a dick, let's say it had been a dick.

[1997] And the person was trying to, like, make you feel different.

[1998] Yeah.

[1999] And then they apologize.

[2000] You'd probably go, thank you because that really hurt and it felt really awkward.

[2001] Like, you might give it back to them a little bit, right?

[2002] I don't, I would hope I would.

[2003] Mm -hmm.

[2004] But maybe not.

[2005] I don't know if I would.

[2006] I think you get trained to make that as little of the issue as possible.

[2007] Yeah.

[2008] And then, because you also start feeling like, oh, God, I overreacted.

[2009] Right.

[2010] Start making it like, oh my God, now everyone's upset, and it's because I overreacted.

[2011] Mm -hmm.

[2012] But, yeah.

[2013] Oh, geez.

[2014] That's a lot.

[2015] I got a little selfish during that story, if I'm just totally honest with you.

[2016] Why?

[2017] It just occurred to me. I was like, last time someone apologized to me. Oh, my God.

[2018] Well, well, here's how it had.

[2019] I was like, oh, first and foremost, I was like, I don't know what it's like to be completely other in a situation.

[2020] Yeah.

[2021] You know, so it started in kind of an altruistic thought process.

[2022] And then I was like, you know, someone does owe me an apology.

[2023] I've apologized to you.

[2024] Yes, you and I have apologized to each other quite often.

[2025] I do think I don't feel bad for myself, but I do think when you're self -express, like, I'm a leader and I'm alpha.

[2026] No one's sitting around worrying too much if my feelings were hurt.

[2027] Understandably so.

[2028] I've kind of stuck out this identity where it's like, don't worry about me. I'm fearless and I can't be defeated, right?

[2029] And so it comes with a bunch of benefits.

[2030] Totally.

[2031] And then one of the downsides is occasionally, and that's actually one of the times you apologize to me is I was like, hey, Monica, I still have feelings.

[2032] And if you are joyous when I lose, it kind of hurts my feelings.

[2033] But of course you wouldn't worry about me because I'm kind of, I'm projecting this identity where I'm not one that needs protecting.

[2034] That's interesting.

[2035] I worry about your feelings all the time.

[2036] You do.

[2037] But I didn't worry about them in that case.

[2038] You're right.

[2039] It was a power thing.

[2040] Sure.

[2041] I think.

[2042] Because in that specific case, I was like rooting for our friend Molly, who at that time was like, new is to the group.

[2043] I wanted her to feel happy during this game.

[2044] Yeah.

[2045] You were in charge of the group.

[2046] So, you know, right?

[2047] I mean, you were.

[2048] Yeah.

[2049] I said the thing.

[2050] I invited all the people that were there.

[2051] So I felt like I was doing that.

[2052] And you're right.

[2053] Those are all reasons why it's totally fine for you to celebrate when she wins.

[2054] Yes and no. Those are real reasons.

[2055] But I should have been aware that you wouldn't like that.

[2056] Yeah.

[2057] I guess I realized it the other day.

[2058] Yeah.

[2059] I actually was around a coworker who's all.

[2060] so very kind of a leader.

[2061] And I think I might have noticed a moment where she deserved an apology.

[2062] And then I kind of could just see, oh, that person's not going to apologize because they're not worried about her like confidence, self -esteem, because they're just seeing her in this very specific light, which is like a leader.

[2063] Yeah.

[2064] And I just, it just crossed my mind.

[2065] I'm like, I bet not many people ever worry about her and or apologize to her because she's such a force.

[2066] It's also what you're putting out, not to like, diminish what you're saying or blame you for this but like I am outwardly I'm vocally sensitive uh -huh and it's what it's something that like gets called out sometimes by you as like something to work on right so which is so selfishly motivated because I just hate I hate how I feel when I hurt your feelings yeah I know I know that so that's like the stance is like I am sensitive to things and if you're the person saying you're sensitive to things, then it's hard for them to get that get turned around.

[2067] Well, I can say plainly, I can't have my cake and eat it too.

[2068] I recognize that.

[2069] No one's sitting around worrying about me. They're like, you're set.

[2070] You got money.

[2071] You have a good career.

[2072] You're big.

[2073] What am I worried about?

[2074] And rightly so.

[2075] It's totally justified.

[2076] No, it's not.

[2077] No, it's not.

[2078] But occasionally it'll just cross my mind.

[2079] Like when I hear that story, I just tried to imagine someone coming up to me and saying, I feel so bad.

[2080] I don't think I've had that experience.

[2081] Yeah.

[2082] Well, I was thinking about your feelings a lot on our trip.

[2083] In Temecula.

[2084] We just went on a big group friend trip.

[2085] An amazing blast.

[2086] It was so fun.

[2087] Yeah.

[2088] I'm so sad to not be there still.

[2089] Me too, yeah.

[2090] We had so much fun.

[2091] But there was a couple moments on that trip where I felt like, I mean, everyone was drinking a lot.

[2092] Uh -huh.

[2093] And I just started to feel like this isn't nice to be doing.

[2094] Oh, no, that never bothers me. I know it doesn't, but even though I know it doesn't.

[2095] I'd feel way worse if people weren't doing what they want to do for my sake, being a, like, you know, never wanting to be a drag on somebody.

[2096] That would be a lot more painful for me. I know, but also, I don't know.

[2097] I just felt like, specifically on this one for some reason.

[2098] So I was like, everyone's drinking and drunk and what?

[2099] Like, and then Dax is just standing there and this can't be fun for it.

[2100] This cannot be fun.

[2101] That's really what I was just like, this cannot be fun for him at all.

[2102] Anyway, I'm sorry your feelings get hurt sometimes.

[2103] Oh, it's totally fine.

[2104] It's totally fine.

[2105] Like I said, I can't have it all.

[2106] I can't be want to be seen as some way and doing all these things to promote that.

[2107] and then be bummed I'm not also seen as Bambi when I want to be.

[2108] Yeah.

[2109] You know what I'm saying.

[2110] I do.

[2111] Yeah.

[2112] But you're allowed to.

[2113] It just crosses my mind sometimes.

[2114] Yeah.

[2115] Okay.

[2116] I have some pretty devastating news for Rob.

[2117] Uh -oh.

[2118] Not Wobby -Wob.

[2119] Rob McElhaw?

[2120] Yeah.

[2121] Rob McElhenney?

[2122] Yes.

[2123] What is it?

[2124] So his theory about Mac and Mick.

[2125] Oh.

[2126] Uh -oh.

[2127] Is according to the internet not true?

[2128] Oh, this is great news for me. I know.

[2129] I'm scared to say it.

[2130] I'm kind of scared.

[2131] Maybe you'll get a text from him.

[2132] I know.

[2133] I'm afraid.

[2134] A few different places said that's a common misconception.

[2135] Because was he saying that like one Scottish, one's Irish?

[2136] No, you're saying if there's a vowel after the MC, it's Mac.

[2137] Mackleheny, Mac and Row.

[2138] Uh -huh.

[2139] If there's a consonant, it's Mick, like Mick Jagger.

[2140] Mick Jagger, just M -I -C -K.

[2141] Oh, sorry.

[2142] Bad example.

[2143] McDonald's.

[2144] Wait, wait.

[2145] If it's a consonant, it's MC, and if it's a vowel, it's M -A -C.

[2146] And that's because of Scottish and Irish, or why?

[2147] Was there a reason?

[2148] I have no clue.

[2149] I don't think he gave us the etymology.

[2150] Okay, then this isn't devastating.

[2151] Okay, so I guess he's right.

[2152] He's right.

[2153] I don't know, and I believe him.

[2154] Yeah.

[2155] He's smarter than us, I think.

[2156] Well.

[2157] I don't know about that.

[2158] Did he go to a Unifile school?

[2159] No, I don't think of that.

[2160] Okay, then I can't, he can't prove it.

[2161] Once you get that Jesuit education, you don't really need to go to an Ivy League school.

[2162] Okay, got it.

[2163] Got it.

[2164] Mick.

[2165] Mick got it.

[2166] It would be Mick Got it.

[2167] But Mick Steamy, McDreamy.

[2168] Mm -hmm.

[2169] McDonald's.

[2170] Yeah.

[2171] And if it was Mick Easy, it'd be Mac Easy.

[2172] If there was one of the characters on Gray's and Adam, me that was easy.

[2173] I'll say it's a guy.

[2174] He's really easy to get in bed.

[2175] Okay.

[2176] He would be Mac Easy.

[2177] Okay.

[2178] Not Mick Easy.

[2179] Okay.

[2180] Also, why was, now that I'm thinking about it, why was his name McDreamy?

[2181] Because his name was Derek Shepard.

[2182] Oh.

[2183] Why, you know, he's one of my relatives?

[2184] I know.

[2185] Oh, my God.

[2186] Yeah.

[2187] They should have called him McDax.

[2188] Really confuse everyone.

[2189] So I wonder where they even got that.

[2190] Me too.

[2191] I don't remember.

[2192] I used to love that show so much.

[2193] I used to get all my music from there.

[2194] Were you more attracted to McSteamy or McDreamy?

[2195] Who do you think?

[2196] McDreamy.

[2197] Yeah.

[2198] But I'm friends with McSteamy.

[2199] Right.

[2200] Yeah.

[2201] So I kind of wanted you to vote for him.

[2202] Yeah, but if you know my type.

[2203] Predilections.

[2204] Uh -huh.

[2205] It's not a McSteamy body type.

[2206] No. Although it's very attractive body type.

[2207] It's just not for me. Right.

[2208] Yeah.

[2209] Too much man for.

[2210] There's a lot.

[2211] Yeah.

[2212] I got you.

[2213] Mick Steamy, who's.

[2214] real name, of course, is Eric Dane, is on Euphoria, which I watched.

[2215] Yeah.

[2216] It's good.

[2217] It is very frightening, but it is very good.

[2218] What is it about?

[2219] It's about a gal who at maybe six years old or eight years old is diagnosed with OCD, so she gets put on medication.

[2220] And then the medication, of course, by 15, she's an addict.

[2221] She's been on all these different medications.

[2222] She's used to feeling altered.

[2223] So to get really high, she's got to do like really crazy shit.

[2224] So it's a real dark look at kind of high school addiction, sex stuff, male stuff, female stuff, pornography.

[2225] It's good.

[2226] And as a father of two girls, it's fucking terrifying.

[2227] Like, I was watching thinking, I wonder if Kristen could even possibly enjoy this because this is about your worst nightmare of what your kids might be up to.

[2228] Yikes.

[2229] Yeah.

[2230] But anyways, Dane's in it.

[2231] And he's phenomenal.

[2232] Oh, great.

[2233] He is playing a creepy motherfucker.

[2234] And he is good.

[2235] And he's not creepy.

[2236] Good.

[2237] In real life.

[2238] So we were talking about Rhode Island and you were wondering why it's R. H -O -D.

[2239] Yeah.

[2240] Yeah.

[2241] And you want to know why it wasn't R -O -A -D.

[2242] Yeah.

[2243] Is Road how you spell a road in Ireland or something?

[2244] There's a few theories.

[2245] It's unclear how the island came to be named Rhode Island, but two historical events may have been of influence.

[2246] Explorer Giovanni da Verazano noted the presence of an island near the mouth of Narraganset Bay in 1524, what she likened to the island of Rhodes, part of modern Greece.

[2247] Hmm, okay.

[2248] Wow, it's got Greek origins.

[2249] Well, another theory.

[2250] Adrian Block passed by the island during his expeditions in the 1610s, and he described it in a 1625 account of his travels as, quote, an island of reddish appearance in 17th century Dutch, Enrodic Island.

[2251] Island.

[2252] Oh.

[2253] Do you know what all these bodies of water You're reading make me want to sing?

[2254] Can you guess?

[2255] No, just sing it.

[2256] Whatever you're going to say.

[2257] Well, a legend lives on from the Chippewa down to the big lake they call get chagumi.

[2258] The lake it is said never gives up her dead when the skies of November turn stormy.

[2259] I think I fucked up the last line.

[2260] Do you think it was gloomy?

[2261] When the aides of November come early.

[2262] Oh.

[2263] With its load of iron or 26 ,000 tons more than the Edmonds Fitzgerald, wait empty.

[2264] The wreck of the Edmonds Fitzgerald.

[2265] That would definitely never have been the thing, I guess.

[2266] Really?

[2267] Even though the Big Lake, they call Gichigumi?

[2268] Never heard of that in my life.

[2269] You haven't heard that song?

[2270] No. Gordon Lightfoot?

[2271] No. Oh, it's great.

[2272] What's Getsugumi?

[2273] Well, the whole song is about the wreck of the Edmonds Fitzgerald, which happened on Lake Superior.

[2274] and he is saying in the song that the Lake Superior went by presumably a Native American name Gichigumi.

[2275] No wonder you like it and you know it because it's the Michigan Lake.

[2276] That's right.

[2277] And probably the only people in Michigan know it.

[2278] No, no. It was a very popular song in the 70s.

[2279] In Michigan.

[2280] You know, I used to sing it a lot in Michigan.

[2281] Yeah.

[2282] He used to sing it a lot in karaoke.

[2283] Oh.

[2284] But I did it with the words of Piano Man by Billy Joel.

[2285] Oh.

[2286] So I'd say, okay.

[2287] he's talking with davy who's still in the navy and probably will be for life huh yeah that's it was a very confusing experience for the listeners because they're looking at the words on the screen and i'm not singing those words and then after about 10 verses they might grab one of the piano and they go oh my god this motherfucker singing piano man that's very hard to do uh -huh to do words to a different tune i don't think i could do it sober yeah Interesting.

[2288] Like pool and karaoke are both things you get a little better at after three beers.

[2289] Yeah.

[2290] Three beers.

[2291] Good thing both of those things are not important to life.

[2292] Unless you're a billiards champion.

[2293] Yeah.

[2294] Okay.

[2295] So he was talking about auditioning for Euro Trip.

[2296] So I loved Euro Trip.

[2297] I don't remember it being good, but I liked it because at the beginning of the movie, Matt Damon makes a cameo.

[2298] Get out of here.

[2299] And what does he do?

[2300] He's a, like, rocker or something.

[2301] Oh, yeah.

[2302] I remember that.

[2303] And he's, punk rocker.

[2304] He's singing like a crazy song.

[2305] I remember that.

[2306] No, I forget what it is.

[2307] But, yeah.

[2308] So I was in.

[2309] Yeah.

[2310] I was in.

[2311] Just like hoping he'd appear again, you know.

[2312] And also did Todd Phillips direct that because you guys were acting like he did.

[2313] He did not.

[2314] Road trip, he directed.

[2315] Right.

[2316] But then you were, it was.

[2317] He was talking about Euro trip.

[2318] Yeah.

[2319] And then.

[2320] I was confused.

[2321] Yeah.

[2322] Okay.

[2323] So he said that he thinks he's a good drunk and that I should fact check that.

[2324] I wanted to, but then I didn't get to.

[2325] You could ask Bateman.

[2326] Let's text some people in the meantime and I'll check back in.

[2327] Add that to the list.

[2328] Add it to the list of things to do.

[2329] Bateman would be a great person to ask because Bateman doesn't drink.

[2330] Oh, so he could be objective.

[2331] He would be a clear -headed objective.

[2332] Okay.

[2333] Yeah.

[2334] Okay.

[2335] So he said, he was talking about this article about this town in Vermont in the 80s.

[2336] This man. went to look at kids and how they play and like how far they go and then all these years later he went to meet those kids again and see their kids and how they were living and you know they only can like go play in their backyard basically yeah so i found it in 1972 a british -born geography student roger hart settled on an unusual project for his dissertation this is from the atlantic he moved to a rural new england town and for two years tracked the movements of 86 children in the local elementary school to create what he called a quote geography of children including actual maps that would show where and how far the children typically roamed away from home.

[2337] Usually research on children is conducted by interviewing parents but Hart decided he would go straight to the source.

[2338] The principal of the school lent him a room which became known as Rogers' room.

[2339] This all sounds very pedi -o -o - I know.

[2340] I was thinking that too when I was reading this but it's like also negating the whole point which is like we can't.

[2341] We're all so fearful.

[2342] That's the whole point of this.

[2343] Yeah.

[2344] And he slowly got to know the children.

[2345] Okay.

[2346] You're going to hate this.

[2347] Okay.

[2348] Hart asked some questions about where they went each day and how they felt about those places, but mostly he just wandered around with them.

[2349] Even now, even now as a father, not that that matters, and a settled academic, Hart has a dreamy, puckish air.

[2350] Children were comfortable with him and loved to share their moments of pride, their secrets.

[2351] Oh, my gosh.

[2352] Often they took him to places adults had never seen before.

[2353] Playhouses or forts the kids had made just for themselves.

[2354] Wow.

[2355] Okay.

[2356] You got it.

[2357] Not everything.

[2358] No, I know.

[2359] This person is not that.

[2360] No. It just really is triggering for me. I know.

[2361] I get it.

[2362] I imagine, like, letting Lincoln hang with an adult and let her show him all this.

[2363] No. You would never, not a fucking chance.

[2364] No. I won't even let a guy babysit my kids.

[2365] That was the 70s.

[2366] And so, yeah, Hart's methodology was novel, but he didn't think he was recording anything radical.

[2367] Most of his observations must have seemed mundane at the time.

[2368] For example, I was struck by the large amount of time, children spent modifying the landscape in order to make places for themselves and their play.

[2369] But reading his dissertation today feels like coming upon a lost civilization, a child culture with its own ways of playing and thinking and feeling that seems utterly foreign now.

[2370] The children spent immense amounts of times on their own, creating imaginary landscapes.

[2371] Their parents sometimes knew nothing about the parents played no role in their coming together.

[2372] The forts they built were not praised and cooed over by their parents because their parents almost never even saw them.

[2373] Yeah, I had shit like that.

[2374] Me, I had tons.

[2375] Maybe I just didn't know what was going on ever.

[2376] No, and I built stuff out in the woods by my subdivision.

[2377] And you weren't doing it so that you could show that wasn't the purpose.

[2378] I had this whole thing, you know, my grandparents owned that motel.

[2379] Yeah.

[2380] roadside motel and my grandpa owned also like a little professional building where there were like some dentists and shit and that and it was it had joined the property and I used to go like on the weekends when it was shut down and I would go in the stairwell and I'd bring these big pieces of concrete down there and those were my speakers like I had a really sweet hi -fi system in this fake I guess like an apartment in the stairwell and my real focus was that hi -fi system I had the biggest pieces of concrete I could find because one big speakers yeah and I remember taking my cousin Matthew down there, show them around, like, what my setup was.

[2381] And he was into it, yeah.

[2382] Did you put your plant down there?

[2383] No, my plant was back at home.

[2384] Oh.

[2385] Yeah.

[2386] I know you really like music.

[2387] You know, it's funny you say that.

[2388] When I would go away for the summer to be with my grandparents, I would worry a lot that my mom was going to take good care of that.

[2389] Because I used to put these great little fertilizer sticks in the soil, and you had to put them in, like, once a week.

[2390] And, you know, I also put mayonnaise on their, on its leaves to clean it.

[2391] I read that that was good for it.

[2392] I was like, there's no way my mom's putting mayonnaise on it and putting the fucking fertilizer stick in there.

[2393] And I come home and it definitely looks sad that I had been gone.

[2394] And I'd feel terrible for a couple hours.

[2395] And then I'd like nurse a bowel back up and put the stick in.

[2396] And man, you know what this sad?

[2397] Yeah, like I'm, let me also admit, like I'm painting myself out to be so tender towards this plant, which I was.

[2398] But I can also admit, there's a period where I don't know what the fuck happened that plant.

[2399] Like I got to a certain age, I guess, where I was just like, oh, I'm over that plant.

[2400] Yeah, you grew out of...

[2401] A poor plant.

[2402] I hope I planted it in the yard or something.

[2403] It was a low -light plant, though.

[2404] I don't know if it would have done well outside.

[2405] I wonder why you cared about it so much.

[2406] Also, where did you read that there was mayonnaise, that mayonnaise was good for plants?

[2407] That is not true.

[2408] I bet it is.

[2409] I wonder if it is.

[2410] I've got a dead plants in my house, and maybe it's because of no mayonnaise.

[2411] Smear mayonnaise, or I think I was using Miracle Whip mostly.

[2412] Oh, extra fat.

[2413] That little bit of zing.

[2414] Oh.

[2415] So you would like go to the library and read up on plants?

[2416] I mean, this is fascinating.

[2417] No, my grandmother, the other grandmother, not the roadside motel, but Grandma Yolos, who I fucking love, Popababab and Grandma Yolus.

[2418] Grandma Yolos was a science teacher in high school.

[2419] She had a double masters in science and history.

[2420] And she used to teach me about biology all the time.

[2421] She had all these great books about biology and plants and dinosaurs and all that stuff.

[2422] So that's really where I would dive into that when I wasn't pining over.

[2423] Daniel Fox she lived two doors down I'd only seen her in the summer and she was so beautiful do you think the plant reminded you of her No so that's why you wanted to touch it no put little sticks in it in fact I think it's people like daniel fox that got me to abandon that plant is really what it was oh yeah I was lonely that's why I like that plan so much but why that's because there were five fucking kids because we moved into a house with two other kids yeah and one less parent because he was gone all the time yeah so I had one mom and now these other two kids.

[2424] And I lived in the basement.

[2425] Yeah.

[2426] But you had friends.

[2427] I did have friends.

[2428] Yeah.

[2429] But at home, I felt kind of lonely.

[2430] I felt, you know, I have very middle childy, you know.

[2431] Yeah.

[2432] I felt kind of left out.

[2433] I'm sorry, Mom.

[2434] It would break her heart.

[2435] Yeah.

[2436] She owes you an apology.

[2437] She bought me that plant, though.

[2438] I got to thank her for that.

[2439] Okay.

[2440] So through his maps, Hart discovered broad patterns between second and third grade, for instance.

[2441] The children's free range, the distance they were allowed to travel away from home, without checking in first tended to expand significantly because they were permitted to ride bikes alone to a friend's house or to a ball field.

[2442] By fifth grade, the boys especially gained a dramatic new freedom and could go pretty much wherever they wanted without checking in at all.

[2443] The girls were more restricted because they often helped their mom with chores or errands.

[2444] And had vaginas.

[2445] Yeah, and had periods.

[2446] Or stayed behind to look after younger siblings.

[2447] Also, girls shouldn't be out once they get their period because wild animals are attracted to.

[2448] So they get attacked by bears and flies.

[2449] In 2004, Hart returned to the same town to do a follow -up study.

[2450] His aim was to reconnect with any kids he had written about who still lived within 100 miles of the town and see how they're raising their own children.

[2451] But from the first day he arrived, he knew he would never be able to do the research in the same way.

[2452] Hart started at the house of a boy he'd know, now a father, and asked whether he could talk to a son outside.

[2453] The mother said they could go in the backyard, but she followed them, always staying about 200 yards behind them.

[2454] Hart didn't get the sense that the parents were suspicious of him more that they they'd gotten used to the idea of always being close to their children and didn't like them going off.

[2455] He realized that this time around he could get to the children only through the adults.

[2456] Even the kids didn't seem that interested in talking to him alone.

[2457] They got plenty of adult attention already.

[2458] They were so used to having their lives organized by their parents.

[2459] Meanwhile, the new principal at the school said he didn't want Hart doing any research there because it was not...

[2460] Because it was very PDO.

[2461] Because it was not directly related to the curriculum.

[2462] Yeah.

[2463] And a big red flag.

[2464] Yeah.

[2465] At one point, heart tracked down Sylvia.

[2466] One of the girls he'd filmed at the River House.

[2467] Wait, I'll just skip this part.

[2468] Filmed at the River House.

[2469] This is...

[2470] No, there's a documentary, that's why.

[2471] Oh.

[2472] Hold on.

[2473] I don't think we need to talk about.

[2474] I mean, this reads, if you were telling me a story about a pedophile, it would be the exact same story.

[2475] I know, but...

[2476] He filmed at the Lake House.

[2477] I know.

[2478] Where he went with her often.

[2479] No. No. No. It's a real shame.

[2480] It's a shame that the fucking, whatever it is, 10 %...

[2481] of the population, that's pedophiles, pedophiles, that they really have ruined it for all adults.

[2482] Yeah.

[2483] That's the shitty part of this whole thing.

[2484] Would you be in favor if there was a genetic marker for pedophilia?

[2485] Why are you calling it that?

[2486] Now you read that's what you're supposed to say?

[2487] Well, you know what's funny?

[2488] My dad's girlfriend, Edie, who was very, very smart, and she was a teacher.

[2489] She said it is a long E because there's a D and then two vowels after.

[2490] I always said pedophile.

[2491] This is another map on anything.

[2492] But it is pedophilia.

[2493] It's not pedophilia.

[2494] I think it is pedophilia.

[2495] I don't think so.

[2496] Okay.

[2497] I think it is.

[2498] If it was petapel, it would be two E's.

[2499] No, because any time there's a vowel after a consonant that makes the vowel before the consonant long.

[2500] No. Medical.

[2501] Medical.

[2502] Nope.

[2503] You're right.

[2504] There are exceptions.

[2505] That's why English fucking sucks.

[2506] I don't think, yeah.

[2507] I don't think that's a rule at all.

[2508] I'm sorry, E. How do you, hold on, I want to say.

[2509] How do you pronounce pedophile?

[2510] Also, maybe it's rid of it.

[2511] Didn't catch that.

[2512] Try again.

[2513] That's not a good sign for me. How do you spell pedophile?

[2514] Oh, fuck, it came right up.

[2515] All right, let's see, here we go.

[2516] Pedophile.

[2517] So pedophile says pedophile, but I want to say pedophilia.

[2518] How to pronounce pedophilia.

[2519] Pedophilia.

[2520] Yeah.

[2521] All right.

[2522] Okay.

[2523] Okay.

[2524] Anywho.

[2525] Yeah.

[2526] Two hours later.

[2527] So pedophilia, a genetic marker.

[2528] Oh, if there was a genetic marker for pedophilia, would you think those people should have a scarlet letter?

[2529] Should they be identified by our population?

[2530] I, oof.

[2531] This is going to be one of the rare examples where I will abandon my libertarian individual rights thing and go collective good.

[2532] And only because the victims are children.

[2533] If the victims were adult, for some reason, it would make, I wouldn't probably, like, if someone had a genetic marker to be a murderer, I don't know that I would make that happen.

[2534] That's true.

[2535] But because it's kids, I would.

[2536] But also, what if they, like, you know, like that tart and feathered episode of this American line?

[2537] Yeah, that they know it.

[2538] Like, you know what?

[2539] I wish if there was a genetic marker, I wish that it was a law that everyone get tested for that so that you at least yourself knew.

[2540] Okay.

[2541] How about this?

[2542] The libertarians would still hate this, but you're identified at birth as one.

[2543] You're not told to the community, but you do enter a system and you have to be checked on.

[2544] And you have to go through classes and you have to, you know, you have to have a whole bunch of prevention.

[2545] Yeah, yeah.

[2546] And you're tracked and if you don't check in.

[2547] But getting checked on, I don't know.

[2548] That feels so prison.

[2549] Like, I don't know.

[2550] I mean, definitely, I think classes or.

[2551] But you are offering them.

[2552] So it sounds terrible at first.

[2553] Like, oh, fuck, I was born with this thing and now I got to go to all these classes.

[2554] and be monitored by the government.

[2555] But the alternative is completely unchecked and you do victimized kids and then you end up in prison.

[2556] So this one thing could prevent you from spending your life in prison or killed by me. This is juicy.

[2557] But what if you're like, what if you're a murderer?

[2558] Mm -hmm.

[2559] Is there such a thing as a murder who doesn't actually end up murdering?

[2560] Like someone who wants to and almost does but then doesn't?

[2561] Well, I think so many murders are circumstantial.

[2562] It's like someone finds their wife in bed with another man. Right.

[2563] You know, someone, these fucked up guys who kill girls who they're obsessed with because they got broken up with, right?

[2564] They're like circumstantial.

[2565] Whereas pedophilia, I don't think is circumstantial at all.

[2566] I don't think like, I'm never going to be with a kid and be like, oh, hmm, give this a go.

[2567] Ew.

[2568] Never going to happen.

[2569] Yeah, no. But what about the people who are actively not acting on it, I guess?

[2570] But how many are there?

[2571] In a utopian society, there was.

[2572] would be no shame attached to it and be like, oh, fuck, you got born with that, like diabetes.

[2573] Like diabetes.

[2574] But hey, here's part of it.

[2575] It's just you got to take insulin.

[2576] You got to take this.

[2577] We're not going to shame you about it.

[2578] But like, this is what's up.

[2579] Right.

[2580] But how could also you not shame?

[2581] Like they're done it.

[2582] This is a utopian society.

[2583] Oh, oh, yeah.

[2584] Yeah.

[2585] Because none of them have ever done it anymore.

[2586] It's like a hundred years past the program.

[2587] Yeah.

[2588] And so they're just identified as that they never do it because this system works so good that we've devised, uh, be it castration or some other method.

[2589] Oh, God.

[2590] I'm going to draw legislation up that when we get the genetic marker.

[2591] Unfortunately, it's probably not a genetic marker.

[2592] And also what?

[2593] You're going to do the class thing or you're going to castration?

[2594] Well, first of all, I'd need to know if castration works.

[2595] Because if castration worked, let's say it did.

[2596] Let's see when you catch someone that's guilty of paedophilia that you castrate them and they never do it again, 1 ,000 % take their balls.

[2597] Not even a question for me. taking someone's balls versus another child being a victim and ruining their whole fucking life and they're an addict and all that shit.

[2598] Yes, I'm sorry.

[2599] You don't have balls.

[2600] Bummer.

[2601] I don't know.

[2602] Would you rather?

[2603] No, you can't do that.

[2604] Would you rather?

[2605] That's not fair.

[2606] Obviously, I don't want children.

[2607] It's kind of what this conversation is.

[2608] No, it's not.

[2609] I mean, I don't think maiming a human is an option.

[2610] I think you can put them in jail.

[2611] I'll use a different example that's less inflammatory.

[2612] Okay.

[2613] I am against torture from prisoners of war, but not because ethically, I don't think it would be worth it if they gave you good information.

[2614] The fact that they don't give you good information, which has been proven time and time again, to me, says, well, now you're just injuring and harming someone for no fucking reason.

[2615] But if torture actually got the leaders of al -Qaeda, I would go, yes.

[2616] I would way rather have one human being tortured than thousands get killed very utilitarian in that way so I look at the balls the same way if it really ended the cycle of pedophilia yes take the balls that's also a kid you're hurting we'll be an adult but yeah no if we're talking about genetic markers you know when they're children you know you do it when they were a kid oh that's interesting I hadn't thought about castrating them as a kid and then they're I think you'd have to kind of leave their balls while they develop, maybe?

[2617] Why?

[2618] I don't know.

[2619] You think it would fuck up your, like, your testosterone comes from your.

[2620] Yes, I think all of this is going to fuck up a person.

[2621] Yes, that's my point.

[2622] I don't think anyone could be normal after that or even try to be normal.

[2623] I don't think.

[2624] Well, I have a vasectomy and I'm pretty normal.

[2625] You're not all that normal.

[2626] Okay.

[2627] It's all right.

[2628] No. I don't know.

[2629] Again, we don't know if castration works.

[2630] We've got to find that out.

[2631] Okay, we'll find it.

[2632] Wobby, we're going to have a three.

[2633] hour episode where we go through all these things.

[2634] Yeah.

[2635] So among this new set of kids, the free range is fairly limited.

[2636] They don't roam all that far from home and they don't seem to want to.

[2637] Hart talked with a law enforcement officer in the area who said that there weren't all that many transients and that over the years crime has stayed pretty steady, steadily low.

[2638] There's a fear among the parents an exaggeration of the dangers, a loss of trust that isn't totally clearly explainable.

[2639] It's interesting.

[2640] Yeah.

[2641] And then you said cities are safer than rural America.

[2642] That is true.

[2643] In 2013, there was a National Geographic article.

[2644] There was some study.

[2645] And these deaths were caused by car accidents, shootings, falls, drowning, suffocation, and more.

[2646] Injury mortality increased with increasing rurality.

[2647] Ooh, rurality.

[2648] Yeah, that's a hard word.

[2649] Urban counties demonstrate the lowest death rate significantly less than rural counties.

[2650] Mm -hmm.

[2651] Yeah.

[2652] We're safer.

[2653] Yeah.

[2654] I should turn my kids loose to wander L .A. You should.

[2655] On their bicycles to build forts.

[2656] Yeah.

[2657] Not a lot of free space to build sports.

[2658] I mean, you're contradicting yourself a little bit.

[2659] If they're out by themselves, is they're going to run into like adult men, probably, maybe.

[2660] Yeah.

[2661] Well, what's weird about that is so I'm really paranoid about it.

[2662] Yeah.

[2663] Yet at the same time, I very much believe that you can talk with your kids and get them good.

[2664] at reading people and their motivation.

[2665] So I actually would kind of trust my kids to navigate the world, even though I do think I have a heightened sense of how many predators there are out there.

[2666] Right.

[2667] Yeah.

[2668] All right.

[2669] I love you.

[2670] I love you.

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